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Jul 09 2012

How can anyone do that to a kitten?

Some people are just sick, demented little bastards. And when they’re in a sick, demented church, it just magnifies the problem. And really, you can’t get much sicker than the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints — the church of Warren Jeffs, the abusers of women and children, the mega-patriarchal colony of polygamous parasites.

Like most cults, they’re very protective of their own and hate apostates passionately. They must send a message to anyone who dares leave the church, as Isaac Wyler discovered. He found a kitten on his property: a kitten half-encased in concrete, which suffered for a little while before it died.

Local authorities, also members of this inbred nasty sect, just laughed at the dying animal.

I just want to see that cult demolished and its members sent off to make an honest living on their own, the men without women to dominate.

216 comments

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  1. 1
    timberwoof

    No. I’m not following the link. Bleh. That makes me feel a little sick.

  2. 2
    mythbri

    Humans suck.

  3. 3
    schism

    Step 1: Identify apostate
    Step 2: Abuse animals
    Step 3: Religious dominance achieved!!
    Step 4: Profit, I dunno

    Pfft. Theistic logic in a nutshell, this story.

  4. 4
    Cipher

    Nononono.
    No encased in concrete. Nothing and no one is ever allowed to be encased in concrete while alive.

    Why the fuck.

  5. 5
    Gnumann+,with no bloody irony at all (just an anti-essentialist feminist with a shotgun)

    Urgggh!

    This is why you never should let splinters fester.

  6. 6
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    fuckin psychopaths

    *RAGE*

  7. 7
    some bastard on the net

    I was just about to go to bed, now I’m just going to spend the next eight hours throwing up.

  8. 8
    radpumpkin

    Great…it’s morning over here, and this pretty much ruined my day. Well, only one sensible thing to say: fuck you, you weird fucking cultists!

  9. 9
    darwinharmless

    The picture on the link just bresaks my heart, and I don’t even like kittens all that much. What a bunch of sick fuckers. The fact that they can find other sick fuckers and form a community of sick fuckers is truly horrifying.

  10. 10
    Furr-a-Bruin

    An animal cruelty charge seems like such a small thing in comparison to that kind of vile behavior – but it’s a place to start, and the so-called “authorities” who did nothing about it should get whatever penalties apply for not doing their [bleep]ing job.

  11. 11
    chigau (違う)

    Oh fuck.
    …falling sparrows…

  12. 12
    raven

    Not unusual.

    The polygamists a few decades ago used to fight wars among themselves and occasionally shoot it out with the cops.

    I once started to tally up the dead people, got to around 50 and decided there were better ways to spend my time.

    Ervil LeBaron wikipedia:

    It has been estimated that upwards of 25 people were killed as a result of LeBaron’s prison-cell orders. Many of his family members and other ex-members of the group still remain in hiding for fear of retribution from LeBaron’s remaining followers.

    Some of his murdered victims were members of his own family.

    ] Ervil LeBaron also has been linked to the death of his own 17-year-old daughter Rebecca, who was pregnant with her second child and hoped to leave the group; it is alleged that, in April 1977,…

  13. 13
    Robert B.

    What captivates me is, this evil is calculated to horrify. These people, who doubtless imagine they are doing the right thing, can nonetheless find it amusing to torture a helpless creature to death in order to terrify a person who disagrees with them. It’s pain for the sake of more pain. Is the idea to save a soul? Is the fellow expected to go “Oh, hey, now I’m going to have nightmares forever about what you guys did, so I might as well join back up”? Is it about punishment?

    When I was a kid, I used to think that, even if religious people were wrong about God, they might still be nicer than average because they spent more time thinking about morality. I guess not, though.

  14. 14
    raven

    but it’s a place to start, and the so-called “authorities” who did nothing about it should get whatever penalties apply for not doing their [bleep]ing job.

    The local authorities in that area are often members of the cults or symphathizers. From PZ’s OP, “Local authorities, also members of this inbred nasty sect,…”

    There are hundreds or thousands of graves around Hillsdale Utah. No one is sure how many, who is in them, or how they got there.

    The state of Utah and the Mormon church don’t do anything. Someone once found an unmarked grave in a canyon around there and reported it to the Utah State Police. They just said it isn’t illegal so who cares. Well, it is illegal but they don’t care. Warren Jeffs was never convicted of anything in Utah, put in prison, let out by the Utah Supreme court. It was Texas that put him away.

  15. 15
    Cipher

    There are hundreds or thousands of graves around Hillsdale Utah. No one is sure how many, who is in them, or how they got there.

    Citations wanted. (Actually very much unwanted, since I really don’t want that to be true, but I feel I ought to know.)

  16. 16
    Lycanthrope

    I feel like a bit of a jerk for pointing out a spelling error rather than something substantial, but a couple of links say the man’s name is Wyler, not Wyles.

    I have no insight, nothing original to add. I’m shocked and deeply disturbed, of course. Beyond that, words escape me.

  17. 17
    raven

    @15

    McCain on Polygamy and Forced Marriages with Child Brides: No …
    orums.randi.org › JREF Forum › General Topics › USA Politics

    42 posts – 11 authors – 8 Apr 2008
    “Arizona is even less responsive on the Babyland issue [unmarked children's graves ... This is all the worse because in the Hillsdale (Utah)/Colorado City ..... leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, ordered ...

    Here is one cite.

    McCain twice ducked my requests for comment for articles on polygamy, first in 2000 for the front page of the Weekend Financial Times Seven brides for one brother: Plural marriage is rife in the western United States, and then for a piece that ran March 2005 both in Scoop and CounterPunch, where I noted:

    "Arizona is even less responsive on the Babyland issue [unmarked children's graves in the FLDS canyonlands]. John McCain (R – AZ), who is incensed about Iraq POW humiliation, takes campaign contributions in part from Mohave County where the FLDS is headquartered on the Arizona side of the border. McCain failed to comment for my Financial Times October 2000 cover story on polygamy and his assistant press secretary, Crystal Benton, told me last year regarding the Babyland matter that his schedule was “too hectic” for him to make a statement, although she wouldn’t want it to be reported that the Senator had “no comment”.

    The FLDS seems to have a problem with infant mortality, possibly due to inbreeding, which is known to be a problem with the LDS polygamist cults. There are a lot of children’s graves.

  18. 18
    anubisprime

    So are the accommodationists and buttlickers all falling over themselves?…not a lot judging by the media, but maybe the TV news rooms are a buzzing with the insanity of this act and the inanity of this religion?..no…what a shock!

    Religion never so threatened when folk walk away from their drooling incoherence.

    Theocracy…what a wonderful concept?…no doubt if xians ever raise their puke filled heads above the barrier and actually comment, theocracy will be the cure…(or more likely the full blown disease)

  19. 19
    throwaway

    Using a metaphor in words of a kitten trapped half in concrete – disgusting but at least it doesn’t physically harm. But actual harm of a creature to illustrate a point you can’t make with those words, and show that you’re willing to carrying out the heinous act to force the targets’ sense of terror? That takes religion.

  20. 20
    raven

    Photos: Children’s Cemetery – Polygamy Is Abuse
    polygamyisabuse.com/2010/07/10/photos-childrens-cemetery/

    10 Jul 2010 – These photos are from the FLDS children’s cemetery in the border town of Colorado City/Hilldale (Arizona/Utah). … after much crying and begging did staff finally relent and allow her child to burial in the “Babyland” cemetery.

    and

    Cemetery, accident data suggest dangerous life for children in FLDS
    ww.azinews.com/…/cemetery-accident-data-suggest-dangerous-life-…

    6 Apr 2012 – The “Baby Land Cemetery,” located in front of the town junkyard in … in the polygamist twin communities of Colorado City and Hildale, Utah.

    You will have to read the links yourself. I looked at this once and don’t care to look at it again.

    BTW, ever wonder how some uneducated moron supports a fleet of wives and children in the middle of nowhere. He doesn’t. You do. A few decades ago, the state of Utah found that 90% of the population of the FLDS town was on welfare. They told the FLDS that this wasn’t going to work. It’s still something like 50%.

    The polygamists regard the outside world as satan’s domain and make their living by ripping them off any way they can. Besides collecting welfare, they also run a lot of scams on gentiles, their word for those 7 billion other people.

  21. 21
    kelecable

    According to this article, back in 2001, the city/police department rounded up all of the town’s dogs and shot them. This sort of behavior with the kitten isn’t unusual in the slightest if that’s the case.

    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/colorado_city_someone_buried_a.php

  22. 22
    raven

    The state of Utah doesn’t seem to give a rat’s ass about the polygamist problem.

    A few years ago, California CPS (Child Protective Services) ended up with a runaway girl from Utah. The state of Utah told them to send her back.

    CPS did a short investigation and found out she was a runaway from a polygamist cult. They told the Utah CPS equivalent to go to hell.

  23. 23
    Emrysmyrddin

    Quick google: Babyland and more pictures here. So many unmarked…

  24. 24
    Amblebury

    *Horror*

    I always think, if that’s what people are prepared to do publically, imagine how they behave behind closed doors. Not that we don’t already know.

  25. 25
    Shplane, Spess Alium

    People seriously, honestly wonder why I consider it a mark of pride to be called an anti-theist.

    This.

    This is why.

    Fuck religion.

  26. 26
    stubby

    Poor kitty:( I’m glad I didn’t watch the video this time.

  27. 27
    Vilém Saptar

    Such sick-making cruelty. How do these people bring themselves to do such deeds. Don’t they even have a barf trigger, if nothing else?

  28. 28
    mouthyb, Vagina McTits

    There is nothing too low and inhuman, too debased and horrific that someone will not do it in the name of religion, hoping their imagination will provide them with theocratic jollies.

    –hisssses–

  29. 29
    chiptuneist

    Fucking. Monsters.

    Does anyone else remember when an Arkansas campaign manager’s cat was killed and had “liberal” scrawled on the body? What the fuck is wrong with people?

  30. 30
    Crissa

    This is one of those times where you gotta thin, ‘holy shit did someone really do that?’

  31. 31
    =8)-DX

    Um, um. Sick, but the suffering of a kitten isn’t something that keeps me awake at night (that nor thoughts of all the poor little lost birds or mice in the woods or roadkill), but that someone chooses to torture an animal to harass someone due to their not agreeing with you? In adults that falls below the level of a playground bully.

  32. 32
    strange gods before me ॐ

    But actual harm of a creature to illustrate a point you can’t make with those words, and show that you’re willing to carrying out the heinous act to force the targets’ sense of terror? That takes religion.

    Unfortunately, no it doesn’t. Secular people also abuse animals.

    Sick, but the suffering of a kitten isn’t something that keeps me awake at night (that nor thoughts of all the poor little lost birds or mice in the woods or roadkill), but that someone chooses to torture an animal to harass someone due to their not agreeing with you?</blockquote.

    You might want to rephrase that; you're suggesting that it's okay to torture an animal just for fun, as long as it's not for the purpose of harassing a human.

  33. 33
    grumpyoldfart

    The perpetrators will be sitting at home tonight and telling each other, “That went pretty well; heaps of publicity; let’s do it again.”

  34. 34
    cl

    Yeah, this is one of those issues where I wholly agree with atheists.

  35. 35
    strange gods before me ॐ

    the insanity of this act

    Not in evidence. Animal abuse is among the most banal of evils. Don’t kid yourself that it has anything to do with insanity.

  36. 36
    MadHatter

    @31 Yes of course, animals and humans suffer and die every and you can’t save them all. But what you just said practically accepts the idea that people cause it and “cest la vie”.

    People who are willing and able to abuse animals also have no problem hurting fellow humans. What level of harm does bother you then?

  37. 37
    Philip

    I’m no fan of cats, but that sort of thing is just sick. And we’re supposedly amoral at the very best, if not outright evil?

  38. 38
    feedmybrain

    I recently finished God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
    It’s just sad that the truth of the subtitle is so frequently re-inforced.

  39. 39
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I’m no fan of cats, but that sort of thing is just sick.

    Har-har! I’m no fan of [cats/dogs/reptiles/mice/birds/whatevs], so they can go suck it. . . har-har, but even I think it’s kinda squicky to torture ‘em. Even me! And you know how I don’t really like them critters.”

    Fucking ass.

  40. 40
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    One thing leads to another:

    “According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.”

    Linky.

  41. 41
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    I couldn’t watch ten minutes of the movie “Untraceable” because there was a kitty in it that I knew the antagonist was going to kill. That was a real cat, but it wasn’t even going to remotely suffer and I couldn’t watch it.

    How anyone could harm an animal is beyond me. It’s sick and wrong and there’s nothing more heinous than to harm a tiny animal like that.

  42. 42
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    @my 41:

    Excepting children.

  43. 43
    anubisprime

    @ ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ #32

    Unfortunately, no it doesn’t. Secular people also abuse animals.

    Indeed they do…and the secular authorities fall on them like a ton of bricks and the public opprobrium verging on toxic righteousness !

    I see no such abhorrence or commitment or even righteousness toxic or other to bust the sick brain dead monsters who did this…no commitment at all…least of all from the authorities!
    And theist comment is as ever silent as a mouldering grave.

  44. 44
    Philip

    Har-har! I’m no fan of [cats/dogs/reptiles/mice/birds/whatevs], so they can go suck it. . . har-har, but even I think it’s kinda squicky to torture ‘em. Even me! And you know how I don’t really like them critters.”

    Fucking ass.

    Point taken.

  45. 45
    'Tis Himself

    cl #34

    Yeah, this is one of those issues where I wholly agree with atheists.

    Who gives a rat’s ass about what you agree or don’t agree with thinking people?

  46. 46
    lactosefermenter

    Their ‘god’ gives them dominion over the “beasts of the field”, etc, etc. so it should come to no suprise that some would chose to excercise that divinely granted authority in any manner they want.

  47. 47
    strange gods before me ॐ

    And theist comment is as ever silent as a mouldering grave.

    First comment I see on HuffPo right now is this from user Daniel G Lee: “Hope there’s a special place in Hell for idiots who do this to animals.”

    Next page of comments shows a bit of bravado from user KickstandCat, whose tagline identifies them as a Christian: “It’s a good thing I’m not in charge. And it’s a good thing I’m not wacked enough to take someone on a little ride into the desert.”

  48. 48
    Shplane, Spess Alium

    The same religious people who will decry this will also try to claim that it has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the perpetrators.

    Which is horseshit, so fuck them.

  49. 49
    John D

    This kind of behavior isn’t unusual for insular cults. There’s a sect down where my aunt lives called “Meade Ministries”, aka the “Endtimers”, who have been trying to buy out everything in Lake City, FL. I recall a story where one person who didn’t want to sell their business ended up finding a box of mutilated kittens they had been taking care of in front of their door.

  50. 50
    weakswimmer

    This is just…absolutely horrible. The people who did this, the people who are supposed to uphold the law, people who would condone it…oh, goodness. There is something so very, very wrong with all of this. Oh, goodness, that poor kitten!

    dldiakfjalkdfjadklafa *makes incoherent sounds for several minutes before going to hug a sweet kitty*

    Sometimes, people do really nice things and are helpful; at other times, we do shit like this. What is wrong with us?

  51. 51
    McC2lhu doesn't want to know what you did there.

    Shplane @25

    People seriously, honestly wonder why I consider it a mark of pride to be called an anti-theist.

    This.

    This is why.

    Fuck religion.

    I’m with you on this, something like 50 bazillion percent. This, along with a vomit-inducing list several miles long, including this week’s Afghani woman being executed (shot 9 times) and the desecration of historical tombs in Mali. Fuck religion hard and always. Religions are excuses for assholes to be the biggest assholes they can.

  52. 52
    Doug Hudson

    “In the town of Ulthar, no man may kill a cat”.

    Too bad I’m an atheist, I would pray to Bast to punish these assholes.

    Aside from animal cruelty charges, couldn’t this be charged as threatening bodily harm or something? I mean, leaving a kitten encased in concrete would certain threaten the heck out of me!

  53. 53
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Katherine,

    I hope you won’t get offended for me mentioning this in relation to your comment, but I really wish people would stop using “this is the worst thing ever that a person can do” to show their outrage. It’s often followed with “except raping children”, because the person usually realizes that they are maybe exaggerating a bit or that maybe grading terrible things like that isn’t the best idea. I’m probably taking it too literally, when it’s only about someone’s outrage, but I really hate when horrible crimes are being graded like this and I feel like it unintentionally invalidates other horrible things.

    Please, don’t assume now that I don’t have compassion and don’t feel bad about what was done to the kitten. It’s terrible. I can’t even imagine the suffering. I keep wondering what else that person is capable of doing and how much suffering they will be able to cause in the future because they are apparently above the law.

  54. 54
    cactuswren

    The State Attorney General has finally authorized the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office to enforce Arizona law in Colorado City. Until now, the only “law enforcement” organization in Colorado City was the “Marshal’s Office”, whose primary task was to enforce FLDS laws and the will of Warren Jeffs. (It was the town’s “marshals” that, on orders from Jeffs, confiscated and killed every dog in town.)

    http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/colorado_city_now_has_cops_tha.php

  55. 55
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Wow. Look at this one from one of raven’s links: heart defects, organs flipped. Another one, ten years old, with the note “OD’d??”.

    Holy fuck.

  56. 56
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Oh fuck, and then I started reading the text below.

    This is a “Public Health Clinic”, funded by the state of Utah, that no one is allowed into for treatment, unless they are members of the FLDS. Check out the security gate in front of this “public health clinic,” which receives taxpayer money, stretched right across a county maintained road, also taxpayer funded.

    Wow, seriously…

  57. 57
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    One last thought before we go to bed: shouldn’t we put a trigger warning on cults, since we may have former cult members in the readership? It’s creepy just reading about the shit that goes on (or, more accurately, the shit that is implied by the facts that are stated); cannot imagine what it must be like from someone who had to escape one.

    Especially not a woman.

  58. 58
    Mobius

    That…is…sick.

    Really, really sick.

    I think even someone that doesn’t like LOLCats would agree.

  59. 59
    strange gods before me ॐ

    The same religious people who will decry this will also try to claim that it has nothing to do with the religious beliefs of the perpetrators.

    Some will but some won’t.

    From commenter meerfisch at the Daily Mail: “I’m so glad I left Christianity behind to become a pagan. At least we respect nature and all creation!!”

  60. 60
    sapphire

    You live in a country where everything you do is governed by a piece of paper cobbled together in a back room by a bunch of weird old men with 18th century thought processes.
    It gives more protection to “religious freedom” than to the country’s individual citizens.
    Your criminal justice system is controlled by amateurs who are elected on the basis of their political or religious affiliations rather than on their competence and neutrality.
    And you’re surprised that this happens?

  61. 61
    Tsu Dho Nimh

    FYI, the Mohave County Sheriff is taking over law enforcement from the FLDS.

    http://www.azfamily.com/news/Theres-a-new-sheriff-in-Colorado-City-161577205.html

  62. 62
    yankonamac

    I realize my opinion on this issue sounds juvenile, but I sincerely don’t understand why the federal government hasn’t threatened to suspend Arizona’s statehood (or replace their local law enforcement with the national guard) over their tolerance of this commune. FLDS is not a native American nation, nor is it deserving of a self-governing reservation, so why on earth does Arizona allow them to establish and enforce their own laws? Moreover, how can the national government turn a blind eye to their overt failure to enforce such laws as we established to protect the basic rights of women and children? If Arizona can’t be bothered to put a stop to this, it is vital to turn to a higher authority–the nation.

  63. 63
    scottplumer

    Isn’t there some crap in the Booble about cats being Satan’s familiar or some such nonsense?

  64. 64
    gworroll

    Religious freedom is a good thing.

    But taken to the extent of letting shit like this happen, I’m sorry, that’s too far. Every other freedom has some reasonable limits on it- no shouting fire in a crowded theater, no firing guns towards a school even if you are deliberately missing the kids. Loosening of warrant requirements when someone is in immediate danger. This is a well accepted principle going all the way back to our founding.

    The Supreme Court has okd religious animal sacrifice, but I don’t think they meant to allow it as a tool of intimidation.

    I hope the cats final moments were at least a little improved from this horror.

  65. 65
    anatman

    justified as it is in this case, do we really need what fred clark calls an anti-kitten burning coalition? how about some ideas on ways and means to shut these bent people down? frankly, what with the church and state quagmire in the way of legal action, i got nothing. maybe someone with a working brain can think of a way to take these people (and the state and religious establishment protecting them) on effectively? is there a new alinsky out there?

  66. 66
    ladude

    This just makes me sick. I hope the new sheriff in town does something about it. Too bad they can’t sick CSI on them. I’m normally a very nice person, but I love cats and this would be close to enough to put me in a murderous rage. I’d like to find the culprits, take them to a bridge over a deep river, give them “cement shoes” and “accidently” knock them over the side.

  67. 67
    paulb

    “That was the bestest fun I had me in a loooong time, did you see the look on that cat’s face, dumb fuck, got what he deserved alrighty. Hey bitch… bring me in a beer!”

  68. 68
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Okay, I said I was going to bed, but instead have been trying fruitlessly to find that damn cemetery on Google Maps.

    That’s strange. There is an entire section of street that has not been covered by Street View for no apparent reason. The coverage goes up to the Utah border, then slightly onto the Utah side, and then…stops, until the next cross street. This is not mimicked on any of the other streets.

  69. 69
    peno

    It is going to be an awesome meme though.

  70. 70
    carlie

    The State Attorney General has finally authorized the Mohave County Sheriff’s Office to enforce Arizona law in Colorado City.

    What the… how the hell were they allowed to just decide to ignore the rest of the state? I thought that our governments didn’t look kindly on secession.

  71. 71
    carlie

    justified as it is in this case, do we really need what fred clark calls an anti-kitten burning coalition? how about some ideas on ways and means to shut these bent people down?

    I think part of it is simply to make it widely known and widely condemned. Apparently, given the response of the local police, they do need to know that the rest of the world is an anti-kitten burning coalition.

  72. 72
    jayknight

    I followed the link. I don’t think my blood pressure is going to come back down for a month.

  73. 73
    gardengnome

    Well, what can you expect? They’re made in (their) god’s image…

  74. 74
    ChristineRose

    So what’s the metaphor here? If you keep telling people how awful we were when you lived with us we will encase you in concrete? What kind of mind goes from “Let’s threaten someone we don’t like” to “Let’s drop a kitten into concrete?”

  75. 75
    nms

    I hope these people incur the collective wrath of the Internet

  76. 76
    raven

    Isn’t there some crap in the Booble about cats being Satan’s familiar or some such nonsense?

    NO!!!

    Cats aren’t mentioned anywhere in the bible. Not one word.

    This is one of the many defects of the xian magic book. They had to be known because they were long domesticated and popular in the dominant cultural power right next door, Egypt.

    Cats play an important role in any primitive agricultural area, as eaters of mice which otherwise eat grain.

    The former xian antipathy to cats in the middle ages was a later invention.

  77. 77
    throwaway

    peno:

    It is going to be an awesome meme though.

    No, perpetuating it will not be awesome. It turns the victim (here, a kitten) into a thing. It will be a sick meme where people disconnect their empathy long enough to laugh about it.

    It wouldn’t be awesome to lighten the effects of torture when it’s a human by turning it into a meme, why are animals exempt from that same protected status in your world?

  78. 78
    contentedreader

    I really regret following that link.

    I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me that there would be a picture.

    Thanks, anyway, PZ, for not putting the picture here.

  79. 79
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    It will be a sick meme where people disconnect their empathy long enough to laugh about it.

    Agreed.

  80. 80
    carlie

    I can’t stomach thinking about what effort was necessary to do that. Without dwelling on details, that’s the kind of thing that is not done quickly.

  81. 81
    Rey Fox

    It is going to be an awesome meme though.

    Go fuck yourself.

  82. 82
    Rey Fox

    I’m no fan of cats

    Why the fuck would anyone think this detail is relevant?

  83. 83
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    I realize my opinion on this issue sounds juvenile, but I sincerely don’t understand why the federal government hasn’t threatened to suspend Arizona’s statehood (or replace their local law enforcement with the national guard) over their tolerance of this commune. FLDS is not a native American nation, nor is it deserving of a self-governing reservation, so why on earth does Arizona allow them to establish and enforce their own laws? Moreover, how can the national government turn a blind eye to their overt failure to enforce such laws as we established to protect the basic rights of women and children? If Arizona can’t be bothered to put a stop to this, it is vital to turn to a higher authority–the nation.

    Why should AZ lose its statehood when shit like this goes on in Texas an Utah? You act like this is the only instance of states failing to protect its citizens.
    All those laws restriction abortion?
    All those anti-gay marriage laws?
    All those stand your ground laws?
    All those minorities being ignored or prosecuted because of race in every state?

    AZ is fucked up. I know, I live here. But this is the same shit when people call out for Texas to secede. Not helping.

  84. 84
    scaryduck

    I don’t make a habit of swearing on other people’s websites, but I’m always prepared to make an exception: Fuckers. The utter sick fuckers.

  85. 85
    Ingdigo Jump

    Sounds like the FLDS are doing exactly what they did in the early days of the Church. Rule by fear and terrorism and rely on the fact that they can bully secular authorities out of the state…then raise unholy hell and pitch a fit when the authorities push back and someone gets hurt on their side and lament the ‘massacre’ for generations.

    I also agree with SGBM, this is something inherent to the cult like nature of LDS and isn’t about the god belief at all. This is zealotry and authoritarianism.

  86. 86
    Lynna, OM

    So, the FLDS cult has been into arranging Celestial Marriage (sanctified rape, often with an audience) between 12- to 14-year-old girls and fifty-year-old (or older) men for decades; and they are known for a unique manner of disciplining babies and toddlers, a method resembling water boarding.

    The worst abuse in Merril’s family was a technique he called “breaking.” He would slap a baby until it screamed and then hold it under running water. The baby would choke and scream, and he’d torture the infant again. This happened to one of my sons. I was pregnant at the time and completely terrorized by what I was seeing. I knew if I intervened, Merril would punish me and possibly hurt my baby even more.

    Link.

    But, now that they’ve tortured a kitten they will finally get attention and condemnation from the public.

    And Raven is right about Utah, they have a hands-off attitude toward polygamists. The twin towns of Hilldale/Colorado City have remained sinkholes of misery and fucking bugnuts religiousity because the FLDS and the LDS churches both hark back to Joseph Smith.

    It took Texas to arrest and jail Warren Jeff (Utah let him go), and it is now Arizona, not Utah, that is addressing the issue of law officers being FLDS cult members.

    Next they can look into the FLDS doctor that commits women who try to escape to a prison disguised as a mental health facility.

  87. 87
    Ingdigo Jump

    But, now that they’ve tortured a kitten they will finally get attention and condemnation from the public.

    I’m amazed that the media hasn’t picked up the FLDS shit after Warren Jeff’s jailing.

    Is it out of a misguided sense of ‘fairness’ to Romney?

  88. 88
    Ingdigo Jump

    I also am baffled why the LDS doesn’t actually crack down the FLDS. I know that it’s that they don’t want to draw attention to themselves and look bad, but seriously. They’re a rival sect of the religion who denies the LDS’s authority and the LDS has a long standing policy of making embarrassing records ‘disappear’. Their inaction does more to hurt the LDS because it makes them look like they support the FLDS and are just too cowardly to actually live by God’s law. It’s like they admit that by the endocrine the FLDS is right and they lack the moral high ground to attack the true church, being Pharisaic sell outs that they are.

  89. 89
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Lynna,

    I read the article. I don’t even know what to say. That’s… they have turned torture into a fine art. How they are making people turn on each other, become enemies of their own children, all cloaked into “God’s will”.

  90. 90
    Ingdigo Jump

    That’s… they have turned torture into a fine art. How they are making people turn on each other, become enemies of their own children, all cloaked into “God’s will”.

    The thing is they don’t need to cloak it in “God’s Will”. Many authoritarian systems will use the same strategy. They rely on people policing and turning each other in…not on the secrete policy itself. As long as you establish an ideology, you can use the tactic to have people terrorize themselves into obedience.

  91. 91
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    I read this last night… didn’t get any fucking sleep. I’ve got four cats, and this makes me want to do illegal things to those people.

  92. 92
    Pteryxx

    carlie @80: yeah, I’ve been thinking along the same lines. Part of why I’m keeping quiet on this thread… nobody needs to hear it, IMHO.

    I’ll just point out this attack was designed to hurt those WITH EMPATHY. It was intended to be terrible to deal with and hear about. Someone who already doesn’t give a shit, like that so-called sheriff, wouldn’t much care.

  93. 93
    Ingdigo Jump

    I’ll just point out this attack was designed to hurt those WITH EMPATHY. It was intended to be terrible to deal with and hear about. Someone who already doesn’t give a shit, like that so-called sheriff, wouldn’t much care.

    You know it’s baffling, how much a lot of religious people act like I was taught the Devil/Evil was like when I was religious.

    Maybe it’s because I was in one of those liberal churches but they sort of went on the idea that Teh Devil uses the strengths of good people to attack them (Cruelty exploits Empathy, Cheating exploits Fairness, Passive Aggressiveness exploits Civility etc) and that the worst evil someone can do is encourage someone else to sin.

  94. 94
    mythbri

    @Ing

    I’m an ex-Mormon myself, and the LDS church’s practically tolerant, look-the-other-way attitude toward the FLDS is one of the big reasons I left (by no means the only one, but very significant). The FLDS carry on a tradition started by the LDS and lend it credence by not completely disavowing their past participation. They don’t regard it as any kind of mistake. They don’t acknowledge how it subjugated (and still does) women and children. They claim that the Prophet received new revelation that made it okay for them to stop practicing in order to become a state, but that polygamy is actually the Heavenly order, and will be what is practiced in Heaven. Even now, in the temple marriage ceremony, a man is allowed to be “married” again if his wife passes and he takes another. In other words, he has two wives – one spiritual, one living, and they will still both be his wives in the afterlife. Needless to say, this standard does not apply to women. They cannot be “married” to more than one man at a time, and it’s difficult to get that temple marriage dissolved.

    In other words, they turn a blind eye because they still believe that on some level, there’s nothing wrong with it.

  95. 95
    Ingdigo Jump

    In other words, they turn a blind eye because they still believe that on some level, there’s nothing wrong with it.

    Like I said, they basically are admitting “we are cowardly greedy weasels who traded the power of God for the power of man”

  96. 96
    Cipher

    Raven and others, thanks for the references and presumably for “babyland” as a search term for more. (FLDSers and Utah police… thanks for the nightmares.)
    FWIW, I believed you. I just feel like I need to read more about it.

  97. 97
    mythbri

    @Ing

    Yup, pretty much. It’s amazing how often God gives “revelation” that suddenly pulls the church out of hot water. Polygamy being one example, and extending the priesthood to all worthy males regardless of race is another. They are even (very slowly) becoming more tolerant of homosexuals, because they received a huge backlash after the action they took in California during Prop 8. The backlash came from inside the church as well, and now at BYU, they allow students to be “out” – not being “active homosexuals”, but at least “out” students aren’t kicked out of school any more for that particular reason.

    Still incredibly backwards and hateful, of course. But changing – although it’s not in ways that really count.

  98. 98
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Mythrbri

    They do know it’s only a matter of time before the violent cult of fundamentalists does something stupid towards the LDS right?

    They are aware that they’re just putting the problem for themselves off and making it worse?

  99. 99
    Lynna, OM

    Coverage in Daily Kos.

    This story concentrates on the problem of law officers in Colorado City/Hilldale being corrupt, serving the dictates of Warren Jeffs, and not enforcing the law equitably.

    Trigger warning: videos depicting abuse.

    In an effort to deal with the church-controlled marshals, Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne attempted to pass a bill that, due to the decertification of so many of the town’s marshals, would have collapsed the agency and replaced it with a police force not beholden to the FLDS; the Arizona Mojave County Sheriffs. The bill sailed through the state senate but failed in the state house.

  100. 100
    mythbri

    @Ing

    To the extent that they even acknowledge there’s a problem, the answer is “kind of.”

  101. 101
    Ingdigo Jump

    In an effort to deal with the church-controlled marshals, Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne attempted to pass a bill that, due to the decertification of so many of the town’s marshals, would have collapsed the agency and replaced it with a police force not beholden to the FLDS; the Arizona Mojave County Sheriffs. The bill sailed through the state senate but failed in the state house.

    This is sounding disturbingly similar to the problems of the early Church with the Government unable to send in uncompromised police and judges.

  102. 102
    Ingdigo Jump

    To the extent that they even acknowledge there’s a problem, the answer is “kind of.”

    Cause you know, if it were me; I’d be greatly concerned about the compounds of armed fundamentalists who think that my organization is run by a false prophet that is perverting the word.

  103. 103
    mythbri

    @Ing

    And see, when you put it that way, my initial (ingrained) reaction is “Oh, I don’t think they would go THAT far,” when clearly they are capable of doing so, and much worse. That’s the extent to which the mainstream LDS church does not acknowledge them to be a problem.

  104. 104
    raven

    Feds sue polygamous towns for religious … – Religion News Blog
    ww.religionnewsblog.com/…/flds-towns-sued-religious-discriminati…

    22 Jun 2012 – The U.S. Justice Department has filed a federal lawsuit against government officials in the polygamous border towns of Hildale, Utah, and …
    Justice Department files civil rights lawsuit against FLDS towns …
    fox 13now.com/…/justice-department-to-file-lawsuit-against-flds-tow…

    21 Jun 2012 – HILDALE — The U.S. Justice Department has filed a federal lawsuit against government officials in the polygamous border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz., alleging civil rights violations.The lawsuit, filed …

    The public officials, police and fire department in Hildale/Colorado city are Fake. They are all FLDS cult members and enforce the cult leaders dictatorial rule.

    Utah and Arizona just pretended not to see it. Now, apparently the federal government is stepping in. Among other things, the local officials are alleged to have converted tax money to their own use. No surprise.

  105. 105
    Rip Steakface

    They are even (very slowly) becoming more tolerant of homosexuals, because they received a huge backlash after the action they took in California during Prop 8. The backlash came from inside the church as well, and now at BYU, they allow students to be “out” – not being “active homosexuals”, but at least “out” students aren’t kicked out of school any more for that particular reason.

    I feel terrible for all the LGBT people that are raised Mormon. I know a person who’s been struggling with much cognitive dissonance over the fact he’s either gay or bisexual (he’s struggling to identify himself) and yet is Mormon. Most of what happened early on is he tried to convince himself he’s not… now I’m think he’s attempting to leave the church.

  106. 106
    Rip Steakface

    *now I’m thinking

  107. 107
    raven

    LDS Leaders still believe there will be Polygamy in Heaven
    ww.utlm.org/…/ldsleadersbelievepolygamyinheaven.htm

    Brigham Young, second president of the LDS Church, declared “The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy”

    Not only does the LDS church believe in polygamy in their heaven.

    According to Brigham Young, it is a mandatory requirement to become a god. No polygamy, no godhood, no planet of your own to fool around with.

  108. 108
    raven

    I feel terrible for all the LGBT people that are raised Mormon.

    The suicide rate of young adult males in Utah is very high, one of the highest in the USA.

    At least some of them are Mormon gay young males.

    There is no doubt that the LDS church is driving some of their kids to suicide. They know it and they don’t care.

    Some of the parents of these deceased kids have claimed it is the best thing that ever happened to their kid. Mormons often have large families. I suppose in that case with plenty of spares it’s no big deal. Whatever.

  109. 109
    Das Boese

    #92

    I’ll just point out this attack was designed to hurt those WITH EMPATHY. It was intended to be terrible to deal with and hear about.

    There’s a word for that, it’s called terrorism.

  110. 110
    Rey Fox

    Utah and Arizona just pretended not to see it. Now, apparently the federal government is stepping in.

    Tangentially, every time I hear about some state legislator saying something stupid or introducing some stupid legislation, I think of what a wonderful and sacred thing “states’ rights” must be.

  111. 111
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ ChristineRose

    So what’s the metaphor here?

    No metaphor intended, simply terrorism.

    @ raven

    Cats aren’t mentioned anywhere in the bible. Not one word.

    There is an interesting, and rather cute, story in islam of mohammad cutting off the sleeve of his robe, so as not to disturb his sleeping cat, Muezza.

    For a muslim, it is a sin to mistreat a cat.

  112. 112
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    Mother Fuck Shit Damn

    I would have to run across this during my lunch break.

    Fuck the Fucking Fuckers

  113. 113
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    PS:

    Hadith Volume 3, Book 40, Number 553:

    Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:

    Allah’s Apostle said, “A woman was tortured and was put in Hell because of a cat which she had kept locked till it died of hunger.” Allah’s Apostle further said, (Allah knows better) Allah said (to the woman), ‘You neither fed it nor watered when you locked it up, nor did you set it free to eat the insects of the earth.”

    I realise the above is a fairytale, but by FSM, it has made the world a better place for cats.

  114. 114
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    I love cats. The idea of people harming them breaks my heart. My own cat’s kept me alive more than once.

    It still kind of really pisses me off that people (not necessarily here, it’s come up elsewhere as well) are really caring about the evil of the FLDS now that it’s become apparent that they’re also animal abusers. Because those raped and abused women, abandoned boys, tortured infants and violated children weren’t enough.

  115. 115
    Ingdigo Jump

    There is an interesting, and rather cute, story in islam of mohammad cutting off the sleeve of his robe, so as not to disturb his sleeping cat, Muezza.

    Heh, China had a similar story about an Emperor….only it wasn’t a cat and it was a boyfriend.

  116. 116
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    Ing @ #115: Either or both is pretty cute.

  117. 117
    Lynna, OM

    raven @108

    Some of the parents of these deceased kids have claimed it is the best thing that ever happened to their kid. Mormons often have large families. I suppose in that case with plenty of spares it’s no big deal. Whatever.

    I think the main idea behind the “best thing” attitude is something like this: Better my kid kill himself or herself than sin by committing homosexual acts. God will love you if you are gay, but god will not be pleased if you act on same-sex attractions. Better dead than to lose your virtue.”

    As far as the Arizona bill meant to replace the corrupt police force in FLDS communities, I think it failed because two women who are members of the state house are also members of the FLDS community. They voted against the bill.

    The bill sailed through the state senate but failed in the state house.

  118. 118
    Ingdigo Jump

    Ing @ #115: Either or both is pretty cute.

    Both? GAH now my mind has combined them and my fanon is now that Mohammad had a catboy lover. DAMN YOU ANIME/JAPAN!

  119. 119
    cr0sh

    I, unfortunately, watched the video. I went as far as the point where they cut off the pipe and showed the kitten/cat; it was plain that it was in pain. At that point I cut it off.

    Thinking back on it, the situation of the cat doesn’t make much sense: It was originally inside a pipe, that was buried in a concrete footer. This pipe was about 6-8 feet tall above the ground; there were others nearby, they looked like they were meant as posts for some kind pen or building that was being constructed.

    Likely, the cat was placed feet first into the top of the pipe and it dropped to the bottom, into the liquid concrete, where it likely struggled, digging itself deeper (like quicksand). The thing I don’t understand, is that concrete begins to set up pretty quickly (depending on the mix, heat of the day, etc – of course). It’s pretty thick stuff anyhow…

    I am just not sure how the -real- scenario went down; it was a kitten, concrete is fairly thick, and it sets up somewhat quickly. Given the position of the cat (head back – like it was trying to keep it’s head above the concrete?), there wasn’t any (that I could see – I didn’t look close or long, though) concrete on it’s face, so concrete wasn’t poured down the pipe. So the cat was in there before the concrete set up, long enough for it to bury itself most of the way (to its neck). They ended up cutting the pipe off near the ground level to get the video of the cat…

    It just seems to me that given all of this (unless it was fairly watery concrete) – that there wasn’t enough time between erecting those pipes, walking away for the day, and someone dropping the cat into the pipe, while it still being thin enough for the cat to struggle and sink into. Am I missing something here (I may be completely wrong about the concrete)?

  120. 120
    feralboy12

    No way I can clink on that link.
    For those that did, maybe this will help offset the horror and restore some faith in humanity: a recent post at WEIT, featuring, among other things, kittens & cats being rescued.
    Damn.

  121. 121
    lostintime

    Sick, but the suffering of a kitten isn’t something that keeps me awake at night

    Phew, good job you got that out! People might think you were human. So if you found an animal encased in concrete on your doorstep, you wouldn’t give a fuck.

    Animal abuse is among the most banal of evils. Don’t kid yourself that it has anything to do with insanity.

    Could you try to explain this? This kind of act is clear evidence of moral insanity.

  122. 122
    Ingdigo Jump

    It just seems to me that given all of this (unless it was fairly watery concrete) – that there wasn’t enough time between erecting those pipes, walking away for the day, and someone dropping the cat into the pipe, while it still being thin enough for the cat to struggle and sink into. Am I missing something here (I may be completely wrong about the concrete)?

    Does it matter considering they actually have the fucking cat in the fucking cement?

  123. 123
    Ingdigo Jump

    Could you try to explain this? This kind of act is clear evidence of moral insanity.

    Because evil=/= mentally ill. Most of the horrible things done to you or done to anyone were by people who we wouldn’t view as actually mentally ill.

  124. 124
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    ….

    I wish I could unread that. :( I knew when I clicked through that I would probably wish such, but I did anyway. I’m going to have to give the kitteh extra cuddles tonight.

    Deliberate cruelty to animals is a feature, not a bug, in patriarchal societies. It’s all about demonstrating “who’s boss.”

    =8)-DX:

    the suffering of a kitten isn’t something that keeps me awake at night

    That’s nice. I refer you to Josh’s comment at #39.

    Anubisprime:

    …and the secular authorities fall on them like a ton of bricks and the public opprobrium verging on toxic righteousness !

    Maybe in the UK, they do. Not always in the US.

    Ixchel, regarding the HuffPo comments, I can’t really blame anyone for those reactions. This kind of shit pushes buttons liek woah.

    Scott Plumer, the bible mentions big cats like lions but not cats in general. However, our society does seem to “gender” cats as feminine. Not all misogynists hate cats, nor are all cat-haters misogynists, but there is a correlation, I’ve noticed.

    Peno:

    It is going to be an awesome meme though.

    Fuck off, shitstain.

    JAL: Agreed. Kicking State X out of the union for making certain people/creatures suffer will do little except accelerate the suffering.

    Ing:

    Is it out of a misguided sense of ‘fairness’ to Romney?

    You may be giving them too much credit for good intentions.

    Also, what Mythbri said. A good number of the LDS are sympathetic to the FLDS. The LDS has only ever changed its “dogma” when under external public pressure.

    I’d be greatly concerned about the compounds of armed fundamentalists who think that my organization is run by a false prophet that is perverting the word.

    The LDS is pretty damn powerful. I suspect the highers-up don’t care if a few “lowly” people get ventilated, so long as the shooting spree is put down quickly.

    and my fanon is now that Mohammad had a catboy lover.

    YOU MUST DRAW THIS.

    Happiestsadist:

    It still kind of really pisses me off that people (not necessarily here, it’s come up elsewhere as well) are really caring about the evil of the FLDS now that it’s become apparent that they’re also animal abusers. Because those raped and abused women, abandoned boys, tortured infants and violated children weren’t enough.

    No fucking shit. See also: Michael Vick vs. Ben Rapistberger (although of course racism played a role in the difference).

    Lynna:

    Better my kid kill himself or herself than sin by committing homosexual acts.

    Or, has been said about fundie xtians in relation to their opposition to STD prevention: Better a casket than a condom.

    Cr0sh, none of us needed to read your torture porn, you fucking asshole.

  125. 125
    Ingdigo Jump

    Seriously, we have cat encased in cement and you are calling it fake cause you can’t see how it was done? Skepticism: doing it wrong

  126. 126
    ChristineRose

    I watched it all the way through, and the cat did seem to have concrete on its face. Its fur was matted and discolored. It is hard to see in the long shots because the cat is naturally grey.

    As far as I can tell, the procedure is (1) Dig a hole (2) Fill your hole with concrete (3) Shove your pipe into the hole and let the concrete ooze up inside. I assume you want concrete that is stiff enough to support a pipe but does not set so quickly that you cannot position and adjust your pipe properly.

  127. 127
    dianne

    I’m (morbidly) curious about how the person who did this justified it to him or herself. What can they have been thinking? It was an act that required deliberation and time, not something done in a moment’s anger and regretted. Where was their head when they put the kitten in concrete? How did they consider this a “good” act?

  128. 128
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Dianne

    One thing I imagine is that if you believe in humans are special because they have souls that basically relegates all animals into “props that move” rather than living beings.

  129. 129
    cr0sh

    @all:

    I am not calling it fake. Obviously somebody did this horrific act to the cat. The question is, who? So far we have the accusation that it was a former member(s) of the FLDS church. But we also have somebody cutting away his or somebody else’s construction…

    Is it possible that this may be a “false flag” operation? That whomever constructed/set up these pipes, also dropped the cat in – for the sake of maligning the FLDS organization?

    Believe me, while I may not have first hand experience with the FLDS, I have read the coverage the Phoenix New Times has given to their odious operations. I find the organization to be just as despicable as you do. I find this animal torture incident (as well as the mass killing of dogs that happened) to be abhorrent.

    But I am also aware of the propensity of people to bear false witness to malign others. I don’t know if that really has happened here; all I have seen is the video. I just have a gut feeling that whoever put those pipes in place, likely dropped that kitten in as well, because concrete doesn’t stay liquid long enough for a cat to get like that, unless the mix was very watery, or it was dropped in fairly soon immediately after the pour.

    I guess I am sincerely hoping that the video wasn’t made by the perpetrator, as that would bring a whole ‘nother level of horror to the situation. Regardless of who did this, though, I hope that they are caught and fully prosecuted for their actions.

  130. 130
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Crosh

    WTF is wrong with you?

  131. 131
    Ingdigo Jump

    Is it possible that this may be a “false flag” operation? That whomever constructed/set up these pipes, also dropped the cat in – for the sake of maligning the FLDS organization?

    You know what. No. Not is is not.

    Skepticism…doing it wrong.

  132. 132
    =8)-DX
    the suffering of a kitten isn’t something that keeps me awake at night

    That’s nice. I refer you to Josh’s comment at #39.

    Oh, thanks – that was a really snarky comment I would’ve missed otherwise.

  133. 133
    Pteryxx

    I’ve been considering how it was done too, and how the rescue must’ve worked; I’m just not detailing it here. It’s icky and not really relevant, except that neither the act nor the rescue were quick or simple.

    I’m (morbidly) curious about how the person who did this justified it to him or herself. What can they have been thinking? It was an act that required deliberation and time, not something done in a moment’s anger and regretted.

    I agree with Ing; to some people, animals are just objects that move and make noise. I don’t think the welfare of the kitten entered into this person’s mind at all, but they weren’t satisfied with, say, dumping a *dead* kitten on Wyler’s porch, as with the Democrat’s cat in Arkansas; or even torturing a kitten and leaving it for him to find. This was planned to make finding it and rescuing it as difficult and painful as possible, even to being ultimately futile… I don’t know how one WOULD rescue an animal half encased in concrete. (One reason I’m thinking so much about it is that I volunteer at animal shelters. A case like this could cross my path someday.) It’s a fuck-you to anyone who cares.

  134. 134
    Pteryxx

    cr0sh:

    I just have a gut feeling that whoever put those pipes in place, likely dropped that kitten in as well, because concrete doesn’t stay liquid long enough for a cat to get like that, unless the mix was very watery, or it was dropped in fairly soon immediately after the pour.

    There’s no reason to assume the concrete footing of the post and the concrete encasing the kitten were from the same pour. Concrete and ladders, or even a truck bed to stand on, aren’t difficult to come by.

  135. 135
    cr0sh

    @ChristineRose:

    Re: Concrete set-up – you are right, this is how it is generally done. The concrete is thick enough to reposition everything; it could be made more watery, but not much more. There may also be support stakes driven to keep the pipe level during set-up.

    The thing is – there was more than one pipe in the video; so you have a few people (or a crew) digging holes, pouring cement, leveling the pipe, rigging any support, etc. More than a couple of holes to fill, and the first pour is almost set-up (not completely cured, though, but fairly stiff – stiffer than a cat can dig).

    So – was the cat put in the last one, before it had time to cure at all? Can a cat (kitten, actually) even dig/sink into the cement? I mean, I am trying to imagine it going down like the video is portraying, and giving the benefit of the doubt all the way around:

    1) Last hole is filled, pipe is put in place, leveled, supported by stakes. Crew is done for the day.
    2) Crew leaves. They just walk off, leave all tools, don’t look back.
    3) Somebody whisks in and drops a cat into the top of the -last- pipe.
    4) Later, they find the cat and attempt the rescue.

    Now, steps one and two would have to happen fairly quickly, and the cement would likely have to be somewhat “watery” to allow the cat at step 3 to be dropped in surreptitiously by someone without the crew seeing it happen, while also allowing the cat to sink into the concrete, which is fairly thick stuff.

    I honestly don’t know if such a random stranger could have did this, or if it is more probable that the person(s) who put in the pipe did this…?

  136. 136
    chiptuneist

    cr0sh: This probably isn’t the time or place to go into detail about how you think this might have been done.

  137. 137
    Pteryxx

    cr0sh:

    I honestly don’t know if such a random stranger could have did this, or if it is more probable that the person(s) who put in the pipe did this…?

    It wouldn’t have been a random stranger, since Wyler says he has been the target of a sustained harassment campaign for years, including the killing of other animals. This would’ve been someone close enough to Wyler to watch the work on his property and plan the crime using the tools at hand. Possibly even someone on the hypothetical work crew, if there was one.

  138. 138
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    But I am also aware of the propensity of people to bear false witness to malign others.

    Hyperskepticism. As out of place here as it is on a thread dealing with misogyny.

  139. 139
    Ingdigo Jump

    Am I the only one who finds the use of “bear false witness” odd?

  140. 140
    cyberCMDR

    The most dangerous thing about religions is that people will use it as a moral “get out of jail free” card. Allah wants you to blow yourself up and kill a bunch of other people? It is his will, so sure!

    Honor killings, child brides, murder, even animal torture. If you believe God wants it, then it’s OK. It is this willingness to suspend our innate sense of morality to religion that enables religious leaders to wield power, and they do so all too often.

    Most of the whole damn human race needs to be deprogrammed.

  141. 141
    cr0sh

    @Pteryxx:

    Perhaps not – but isn’t this making the situation more complex (bringing in ladders, trucks, different concrete)? I don’t recall exactly, but wasn’t this construction nearby a house or other possibly populated area? How was this “extra work” by others, after the real crew left, not noticed by the property owner installing the pipes (unless the property wasn’t occupied, of course)?

    Let’s suppose the ladder was nearby, and so was extra cement bags and water, tools, etc to mix it with. So they get up on the ladder and…

    Pour the cement in first, then drop the cat in? Possible. It just doesn’t seem probable – Occam’s (Ockham’s) Razor and such. The simplest solution is whoever did the initial pour put the cat in there, too. Though I suppose someone could have also gone to the trouble to dig a completely new post hole, etc – all for the purpose of doing this to the poor cat – after everyone else on the original crew had left…

  142. 142
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Or maybe someone from the construction site is also a member of FLDS. Case closed.

    Really, this is getting a bit creepy.

  143. 143
    Ingdigo Jump

    JAQing off.

    It’s someone else like reasonable fellow. I’d bet a paycheck on it.

  144. 144
    chigau (違う)

    I don’t find “bear false witness” odd.
    Most Christians use the phrase.

  145. 145
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Chigau

    or LDS.

  146. 146
    cr0sh

    @Pteryxx: You have a point – I suppose the crew might have contained the perpetrator, and Wyler wasn’t involved in the supervision, or it was planned with the tools at hand, etc.

    @Ms. Daisy Cutter: Why isn’t skepticism of the currently accepted theory regarding this act allowed? Until we have real proof rather than one person’s theory, why can’t other theories about this crime be discussed?

    @Ing: Gerund of Death: I was attempting to be nice. I supposed I could have said “Lied about it”…

  147. 147
    mythbri

    @cr0sh

    If you’re really that curious, then you should follow the link and ask your questions. Discussing the specifics of how this was done to the cat distracts from the overall topic of the thread, and is frankly gross. It happened. The kitten suffered and died because of it. What does it matter exactly how it happened?

    Another example of the tolerance the LDS church has for FLDS is that FLDS members who live outside of these communities are often included in and attend services at regular LDS churches in Utah (and probably Arizona as well). The women are looked at as single mothers, but without the stigma that divorced women get (because, after all, these women are still married – it’s just that some of them happen to be married to the same man).

    I’ve heard this practice excused any number of ways – trying to get these women to convert to mainstream LDS, offering them an escape route if they want it. The latter would be noble if it were true, but it’s not. Because remember – they believe that fundamentally, there’s nothing wrong with the practice of polygamy.

  148. 148
    Pteryxx

    cr0sh: No, it isn’t overcomplicating to use mundane tools at hand on a crime scene. There’s also no reason to assume some bystander would’ve noticed anything amiss going on (somebody pouring concrete on a construction site? Not unusual) or that they would’ve said anything if they did. Remember the *officer he reported it to* just laughed. Why would anyone else intervene even IF they saw someone torturing a kitten on a targeted apostate’s property? Besides, even IF someone on this hypothetical work crew buried the kitten, that doesn’t mean it was a false-flag operation. That would just mean someone capable of a heinous act of cruelty was operating right under Wyler’s nose.

    You’re really reaching for every cherry-picked assumption you can think of to justify your hypothetical. And your dwelling on the details is disturbing.

  149. 149
    Ingdigo Jump

    I was attempting to be nice. I supposed I could have said “Lied about it”…

    No you weren’t. “Bear False Witness” is no nicer than lied to. In fact it’s less nice because of it’s association with sin. I think you are “bearing false witness”

  150. 150
    cr0sh

    @Beatrice: It is creepy to try to theorize on how such an act was planned and executed, in order to help determine who the culprit was? Really? Why?

    @chigau, @Ing: I am neither, I assure you. I do admit at one time (when I was a young child) of being a member of a Baptist church, and later, of following various occult practices (but I grew out of it).

    I can assure you and everyone else here, though, that I am not a follower of -any- religion, and that I hold skepticism, logic, and rationality in very high regard.

    Maybe I am just digging a hole here. I’ll say no more on this subject, and leave what I’ve said to posterity.

  151. 151
    Irène Delse, on dry land among seabirds

    @ peno:

    “It is going to be an awesome meme though.”

    And here is the wisdom of 4chan/b/ in all its repulsive glory…

  152. 152
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    Fucking hell what the fuck is wrong with people in Utah?

    There are hundreds or thousands of graves around Hillsdale Utah. No one is sure how many, who is in them, or how they got there.

    Until the horrifying ‘baby land’ link, I was going to say – equally horrifying – it’s probably the cast off teenage boys who wouldn’t leave or girls who weren’t sufficiently docile. If animal torture is part of their pastime, and a complete disregard for human lives (casting off teenage sons, condemning girls to lives of rape and servitude) is feature of the religion, I can’t think murdering their children would be all that far off.

  153. 153
    Pteryxx

    @Beatrice: It is creepy to try to theorize on how such an act was planned and executed, in order to help determine who the culprit was? Really? Why?

    cr0sh: I don’t think you’re honestly theorizing, but still, it’s creepy because you’re ignoring the implicit and now expressed desires of other people NOT to be exposed to the details of a horrifically cruel act. I suggest you either shut up or take it to your own blog, start your own speculation thread on Reddit or some such, instead of continuing here.

  154. 154
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    cr0sh,

    Some bizarre conversations can be found on this site, but the details which you were describing were a bit disturbing. We are talking about a deliberate torture of an animal, and while I understand that things like that can be discussed clinically, your deconstruction was just too much. And since I wasn’t the only one to feel that way, I’m guessing that I’m not overreacting.

  155. 155
    cr0sh

    @Pteryxx: And I have stated that I won’t discuss the topic further.

  156. 156
    HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

    cr0sh: I don’t give a shit how “honestly skeptical/curious” you are about how the kitten was tortured to death. Stop fucking jerking off about it here, you creepy piece of shit.

  157. 157
    cr0sh

    @Beatrice: My apologies. It wasn’t my intent to make anyone uncomfortable.

  158. 158
    unbound

    And you know you are doing something truly evil when PZ is calling it out because you did it to a cat…

  159. 159
    Nightjar

    And here is the wisdom of 4chan/b/ in all its repulsive glory…

    What?

    No, given the subject at hand, that’s simply not fair. There may be a lot wrong with /b/, but if there’s something they don’t tolerate it’s cruelty towards cats. Google it, there are several cases of them going after cat abusers, outing them and pretty much making their life hell. It’s something they’re known for.

  160. 160
    Irène Delse, on dry land among seabirds

    cr0sh:

    I just have a gut feeling that whoever put those pipes in place, likely dropped that kitten in as well, because concrete doesn’t stay liquid long enough for a cat to get like that, unless the mix was very watery, or it was dropped in fairly soon immediately after the pour.

    Just here, you’re showing how much you’re over-thinking it, and how little it’s justified.

    1) As you say, it’s your “gut feeling”, not evidence, you’re going on (and on) about. Why do you feel the need to defend an organization that’s already on record for child abuse, forced polygamy, racism, abuses of power, etc.? What’s wrong with you?

    2) You give yourself at least two technical reasons (mix watery, quick work) why the kitten could have been tortured in exactly the way described in the article, and you’re still looking for excuses not to accept it? Yeah, hyper-skepticism! And not the best time or venue for it. You see that lots of us are sick with this sort of things.

  161. 161
    cr0sh

    @Happiestsadist: You really think I have no empathy for what happened? You think I got some kind of “rise” off of my clinical speculation?

    Ok – I understand that this supposedly isn’t the forum for this discussion; I have said I wouldn’t talk about it more, and I haven’t. Now I guess it is on to everyone who hasn’t met me to denigrate me as well. I mostly lurk on these forums, and I have seen this same pattern occur with others; some of them are deserving. Maybe I was, too. Though I am not sure why.

    I have apologized. I didn’t mean to make anyone feel uncomfortable, that wasn’t my intent. I don’t think I deserve denigration, veiled libel, or hateful comments, though.

  162. 162
    cr0sh

    @irenedelse: Points taken.

  163. 163
    Irène Delse, on dry land among seabirds

    Ack, sorry, cr0sh, didn’t intend to pile on. That’s what I get for not refreshing before posting.

  164. 164
    cr0sh

    @irenedelse:

    Regarding your points – I don’t accept anything the FLDS organization has done; I have followed the Phoenix New Times stories about their abuse from the beginning, and I don’t like nor support anything they have done in regards to their abuse of women, children, the law, our government, etc. I despise it, in fact.

    I wasn’t trying to defend them – I was trying to be impartial based on the evidence (you know, that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing?), so I was speculating on the situation from another angle. I’m not trying “not to accept” anything. Maybe it went down exactly as already speculated; maybe it didn’t. The fact is, none of us (including myself) knows! All we do know for certain is the outcome.

    The sad thing is, we’ll probably never know for certain what happened, as these kinds of crimes rarely are solved even in the everyday world, let alone in an area rife with religious fundamentalism of the kind seen in Colorado City/Hildale. I honestly want to see justice here, regardless of who the perpetrator is.

  165. 165
    Ingdigo Jump

    I wasn’t trying to defend them – I was trying to be impartial based on the evidence (you know, that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing?), so I was speculating on the situation from another angle.

    That’s not “impartial” that’s spin.

  166. 166
    Ingdigo Jump

    I wasn’t trying to defend them – I was trying to be impartial based on the evidence (you know, that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing?), so I was speculating on the situation from another angle. I’m not trying “not to accept” anything. Maybe it went down exactly as already speculated; maybe it didn’t. The fact is, none of us (including myself) knows! All we do know for certain is the outcome.

    Hyperskepticism is apparently like hyperthyroidism.

  167. 167
    Pteryxx

    crosh: after you apologize for screwing up and causing distress, it’s bad form to hang around insisting how innocent you are. You could demonstrate good faith by shutting up about it all.

    in general: I’m interested in how this was done, too, but even as socially dense as I am, I’m not going to speculate about it HERE where it’s in everyone else’s faces.

  168. 168
    cr0sh

    @Ing: Who do you believe did it, then?

  169. 169
    Pteryxx

    “believe”? Really? I thought you were being all skeptical and shit.

  170. 170
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I was trying to be impartial based on the evidence (you know, that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing?)

    By making a third party guilty without any indication of even existing? That isn’t skepticism, that is excusing the behavior.

    I honestly want to see justice here, regardless of who the perpetrator is.

    Keep in mind, unless you are serving on a jury, the old innocent until proven guilty doesn’t have to be the case, and seldom is. You can logically put the blame where it most likely belongs.

  171. 171
    cr0sh

    @Pteryxx: Is this not a forum for discussion?

  172. 172
    Pteryxx

    What Nerd said.

    By making a third party guilty without any indication of even existing? That isn’t skepticism, that is excusing the behavior.

    cr0sh, several of us already answered your accusations with reasoned critique. Without substantive evidence for an alternative – evidence, not speculations – there’s no reason to continue this supposed discussion, and many reasons to stop. Not least of which is that you’re being an insensitive, self-centered ass. Even I no longer want to have this discussion WITH YOU.

  173. 173
    cr0sh

    @all: I have to say that I find Pharyngula very interesting at times.

  174. 174
    cr0sh

    @Pteryxx: Sigh. Understand that your (and other’s) reasoned critiques are sincerely appreciated; thank you. Name calling, though, is not appropriate; it does nothing to further a discussion (whether you want to continue it or not).

  175. 175
    Ingdigo Jump

    I have to say that I find Pharyngula very interesting at times.

    Yes I bet you do.

  176. 176
    Irène Delse, on dry land among seabirds

    @ Nightjar:

    Fine. Let’s say that peno view of cat torture as meme-fodder is similar to what the lulzers at /b/ do with human humiliation and suffering…

  177. 177
    leighshryock

    Clinical discussion of animal torture is still discussion of animal torture. Also, aside from that, there’s the fact that it could be done. The details aren’t particularly important, and inappropriate in any company that isn’t the police or in the courtroom in regards to this situation.

  178. 178
    bananacat

    I’m (morbidly) curious about how the person who did this justified it to him or herself. What can they have been thinking? It was an act that required deliberation and time, not something done in a moment’s anger and regretted. Where was their head when they put the kitten in concrete? How did they consider this a “good” act?

    Honestly, I would say sociopathy on the part of the instigator. It really takes a fucked up personality to watch an animal suffer and not be affected by it. These people abuse children but they can at least lie to themselves and pretend that it’s somehow benefiting their kid in the long run. But outright torture just for the sake of suffering is so extreme that there are very few ways the empathy instinct could be over-ridden. Most people couldn’t go through with this even if they wanted to.

    And for all those people whining about animal abuse being taken more seriously than child abuse: there’s a pretty big overlap there. If we can get people out of society before they start hurting children, then we should do it.

  179. 179
    nonny

    I never knew that Mormonism was such an evil religion. I used to think of it as a kind of goofy, harmless subset of Christianity. I won’t be making that mistake again. Racism, Sexism, Child Abuse, Animal abuse, abuse of power by corrupting the state’s institutions- it seems like the FLDS is guilty of nearly every unpleasant act imaginable. If Satan was real, surely he’d have a church like this. Whatever fucking bastard did that to the kitten, I hope they feel guilty. I hope it haunts them for the rest of their lives. Also, I hope the police catch them, although that doesn’t seem very likely. Is there an animal charity in America who could investigate the case, maybe? Or put pressure on the state to investigate it?

    Re: anatman, 65: I feel like something should be done too. All I can think of is maybe more atheists should speak out against Mormonism in particular? I’m seen a lot of criticisms of general Christianity, but none of Mormonism in particular (maybe I’m looking in the wrong place) . Maybe somebody could do a read-through of the book of Mormon and criticize it? Sorry, that’s all I can think of right now.

  180. 180
    jackolantern

    I am always amazed at how often people who believe in gods and devils and prayer take it upon themselves to act on God’s behalf. One would think that if God really existed, he could conjure up some suitably heinous event to teach the heathen.

    Such a monstrous acts of cruelty.

  181. 181
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Ms. Daisy Cutter,

    Ixchel, regarding the HuffPo comments, I can’t really blame anyone for those reactions. This kind of shit pushes buttons liek woah.

    Oh, I agree. <a href="#comment-392589"I wasn't trying to imply they’re bad folks for it.

    (The second one was amusing, though; it amounts to “these people sure are lucky I’m not a bad person who would do bad things to them! ’cause if I was, then I would!”)

  182. 182
    csue

    If the local or state police won’t do anything when a crime’s been committed, it’s time to call the FBI. Those people don’t laugh at animal torture.

  183. 183
    Nightjar

    irenedelse,

    Fine. Let’s say that peno view of cat torture as meme-fodder is similar to what the lulzers at /b/ do with human humiliation and suffering…

    Yeah, don’t get me wrong. I understand the sentiment.

  184. 184
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    . Name calling, though, is not appropriate; it does nothing to further a discussion.

    Your tone trolling is an indication of you knowing you have lost the argument, and are attempt a rearguard effort to come out with a “victory”. If that is all you have, you have nothing, and should be ashamed of yourself. Names or not doesn’t change the logic and reason against your diversion of blame.

  185. 185
    ChristineRose

    Actually, if you want to see how /b handles cat torturers, Google Kenny Glenn. And Kenny was a juvenile, and the cat was not a juvenile, and the cat did not die.

    Standard warning–anything involving /b quickly descends into ick, so be prepared.

  186. 186
    cr0sh

    @Nerd of Redhead: Fine, the argument’s been lost. I’m not looking for “victory”: I’m not trying to “win” an argument on the internet. All I want, if anything, is discussion. I want the true perpetrators prosecuted as much as anyone else; I’ve tried to make that clear, but I have failed.

  187. 187
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    All I want, if anything, is discussion.

    Why do you need a level of discussion on how the kitten was killed? That isn’t the relevant point; merely a red-herring. That is what people here are objecting to. Now, talk about why it occurred, who did it, and what to do to prevent a recurrance. That is what folks here talk about as trhey are relevant.

  188. 188
    Ingdigo Jump

    Honestly, I would say sociopathy on the part of the instigator. It really takes a fucked up personality to watch an animal suffer and not be affected by it.

    Not really.

  189. 189
    cr0sh

    @Nerd of Redhead: I wasn’t interested in the how for its own sake; I was only interested in the how insofar as it would potentially point to the who based on what is known with a fair amount of certainty about the how. Establish a means and the motive, and it can help you find out who did it. I understand now that this wasn’t the forum for it; I don’t know why it occurred or who did it; nobody does, it is all speculation at this point. As for how to prevent it from occurring again…well, I don’t have enough knowledge of sociology or psychology to even begin to speculate on that, unfortunately.

  190. 190
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Carlie #70:

    What the… how the hell were they allowed to just decide to ignore the rest of the state? I thought that our governments didn’t look kindly on secession.

    There is cronyism going on, on both sides of the border. From the Wiki reading I did trying to find the cemetery location, apparently the Arizona legislature tried to pass a bill to this effect in Apreil (SB 1433) that failed 28-25, with both Mohave County Reps (Doris Goodale and Nancy McClain, both R) voting ‘no’.

    On the Hilldale side of the border, there is a publicly funded clinic…that has a security gate in front of it and won’t let you in if you’re not FLDS.

    There is also the fact that welfare fraud is rampant, due to women claiming they don’t know where the fathers of their armies of children are. And even if there weren’t fraud, those armies of children still take up money, and will only continue to take up space on the welfare rolls when they are either excommunicated and abandoned so they don’t compete for the limited amount of women, pretty much completely unprepared for the real world (boys) or forced into chattel slavery (girls).

    Also, Arizona elects its sheriffs; as such, all Colorado City’s residents did was elect one of their own who would then just ignore all the laws inconvenient to his FLDS bosses.

  191. 191
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    cr0sh #186:

    Fine, the argument’s been lost. I’m not looking for “victory”: I’m not trying to “win” an argument on the internet. All I want, if anything, is discussion.

    Yeah, we know, we’ve heard it for the umpteenth time now: you’re just asking questions

  192. 192
    'Tis Himself

    cr0sh,

    A friendly word of advice: STFU!

  193. 193
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I was only interested in the how insofar as it would potentially point to the who based on what is known with a fair amount of certainty about the how.

    And somehow this makes me think you knew about it before hand. There was no need to go into the how unless you were personally interested somehow, and was trying to deflect attention from where it should be. Namely on those who did that dastardly deed. There are times one needs to STFU. You are past that point, and admittedly cannot take any discussion forward. We are suspicious, like the Criminal Minds group, of such “help”.

  194. 194
    strange gods before me ॐ

    [anubisprime:] the insanity of this act

    [me:] Not in evidence. Animal abuse is among the most banal of evils. Don’t kid yourself that it has anything to do with insanity.

    [lostintime:] Could you try to explain this? This kind of act is clear evidence of moral insanity.

    [Ing:] Because evil=/= mentally ill. Most of the horrible things done to you or done to anyone were by people who we wouldn’t view as actually mentally ill.

    What Ing said.

    Also, “moral insanity” is not a thing that exists. It has not been a diagnosis since the 1800s, and when it was a diagnosis it didn’t mean what you’re using it to mean.

    This kind of act is clear evidence of growing up in a nation that at best sends very mixed messages about animal abuse, and where cats in particular are considered acceptable targets (perhaps something to do with cats being talked about as uppity and effeminite).

    By pretending that it’s explained by individual insanity, we let the culture off the hook. This kind of thing happens because attitudes about animals need to change.

  195. 195
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Cr0sh:

    It is creepy to try to theorize on how such an act was planned and executed, in order to help determine who the culprit was? Really? Why?

    Because some of us have empathy with the kitten and/or PTSD that affects our reaction to animal cruelty, and we don’t really want to hear the details of how it was tortured and how it died. This isn’t something that needs to be explained to people with a clue.

    It’s nice that you stopped JAQing off about it, but, really, could you stop defending your earlier comments, too?

    Name calling, though, is not appropriate; it does nothing to further a discussion

    Name-calling: Bad. Triggering or simply disturbing people: Good. Fuck you, you ambulatory skidmark.

    Ixchel:

    (The second one was amusing, though; it amounts to “these people sure are lucky I’m not a bad person who would do bad things to them! ’cause if I was, then I would!”)

    Eh, I agree with what Matt Penfold said the other day about how desiring to commit violence against other people doesn’t make one uncivilized, but being willing to act on those desires does. Though admittedly the expression of those desires in a public forum is debatable in its morality.

  196. 196
    cl

    ‘Tis Himself,

    “Who gives a rat’s ass about what you agree or don’t agree with thinking people?” (#45)

    LOL! Apparently, you do!

  197. 197
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Poor kitty! *cries*

  198. 198
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Ah, another evidenceless post by cl. Typical of trolls, thinking they are anything other that in need of a clue-by-four.

  199. 199
    cr0sh

    @Setár: Ok.

    @’Tis: Ok.

    @Ms. Daisy Cutter:

    Understood, and point taken.

    It has stopped.

    No – both are equally bad; the insult was very creative and enjoyable, though.

  200. 200
    cr0sh

    Crap – blockquote fail. :(

  201. 201
    cl

    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls,

    “Ah, another evidenceless post by cl.”

    That’s incorrect. ‘Tis Himself’s response *IS* the evidence (that at least one person cared enough to comment on my agreement). Sorry you didn’t get it.

    “Typical of trolls, thinking they are anything other that in need of a clue-by-four.”

    I always thought trolls needed spellcheck because they let their emotions send them digging into the keyboard before thinking, but that’s just me.

  202. 202
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    Really, JAQ-off how to people – it’s not that fucking hard to imagine how one could do this. I have fairly limited experience with both kittens and types of concrete and can figure it out just fine.

    Humans are very very very scary.

  203. 203
    G Pierce (Was ~G~)

    For those of you as disgusted by this as I am and not sure what to do with your rage, my group The Cleveland Skeptics is trying to raise $1,000 for Best Friends Animal Society, the rescue group that tried to help “Stasy” (for apostasy). They are a wonderful group with a huge sanctuary in Utah I hope to visit some day.

    I’d like to see some good come out of this. Maybe they can help give home and shelter to other animals in the area so they won’t become the next death threat.

  204. 204
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I always thought trolls needed spellcheck because they let their emotions send them digging into the keyboard before thinking, but that’s just me.

    But you post anyway troll. Still no evidence you are right.

    That’s incorrect. ‘Tis Himself’s response *IS* the evidence (

    No evidenceless fuckwit, it was OPINION. Correct OPINION. Still no evidence presented by you for any claim…

  205. 205
    ibyea

    This is just one of the most horrific form of death I have heard of. *shudder*

  206. 206
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Lynna #117: Both members representing Mohave County are women, both Republican, both voted “no” and it only passed 28-25.

  207. 207
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    Er, rather, failed by a margin of 28-25.

  208. 208
    mythbri

    @~G~

    Best Friends is an awesome place. I’ve done volunteer work there. It’s a good organization, and worthy of support.

  209. 209
    cl

    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls,

    Wow, such anger! You’re so… mad! So, impassioned! Question though: what evidence do you expect me to bring to a post where all I said was, “Yeah, I agree with all the atheists that these Mormons are sick?”

  210. 210
    Ingdigo Jump

    Cl in its natural state is gaseous and noxious

  211. 211
    Setár, Elvenkitty

    cl #209: if you hadn’t noticed, we were also having an interesting discussion about the FLDS community at large, helped by raven and Lynna’s links.

    At any rate, your concern has been noted.

  212. 212
    chigau (違う)

    cl, there is a link to TZT on the sidebar just under the link to the endless thread.

  213. 213
    sundiver

    Used to see these fecally encephalised assclams at the Flagstaff hospital quite often. They looked so stupid in their “pioneer” outfits. Apparently they’d get treatment on whatever AZ uses for welfare, claiming they were unable to pay or some such shit. But they “hate the government”, or at least when it’s convenient to do so. I called them two legged arguments for atheism or proof that there aint nothing wrong with mormons that holding them underwater longer wouldn’t cure. Give AZ a bit of credit, Warren Jeffs was in TX when he got popped because Janet Napolitano was trying bust him for the shit he was pulling and he scuttled away to stupidworld.

  214. 214
    Fox, A Lurker

    Watching Bizarre ER taught me that wet cement causes SEVERE chemical burns. (An idiot tried to make a cast for his broken leg by encasing it in concrete.) Just in case anyone might have underestimated that kitten’s suffering… :|

  215. 215
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Question though: what evidence do you expect me to bring to a post where all I said was,

    Evidence you aren’t a evidenceless fuckwitted idjit, pretending to be scientific when you are really anti-science. If you are anti-science, get to your point, and quit trying to pretend you fit in. The blog needs a good laugh at your expense.

  216. 216
    Pteryxx

    Thanks Fox.

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