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Haters gotta hate

Rebecca Watson takes a moment to vent about the internet bile aimed at her, and it’s a depressing read. Who would have imagined a mild admonition to “guys, don’t do that” would turn into months of seething hatred and demonization? As she documents, there are whole sites and ongoing threads dedicated to trashing her and anyone associated with her. I took a quick look at some of her links, and found this treasure on one thread committed to hatin’ everything Watson:

“freethoughtblogs” has become a spiteful ghetto built on a river of bile for insecure gutter-fascists.

That is supernova-grade irony.

Rebecca Watson has my support as an appreciated and valuable member of the skeptical community, who has made many contributions and has also been an entertaining and informative face for skepticism.

The saddest part of this whole contemptible witch-hunt, though, is that several of the people who are still spittle-spewing ranters against the Skepchicks were also appreciated members of the skeptical community, who have unfortunately done a fine job of isolating themselves with their obsessive hate-mongering and slander. Let it go, people. Grow up, move on, shed the misogyny. And make no mistake, you have exposed yourselves as irrational misogynists.

Comments

  1. says

    Taiki:

    It’s pretty clear that the way that progressives are engaging on the internet just isn’t working, and when that’s brought up, it gets shouted down.

    Actually, if you bothered to read the comments in this thread (not to mention all the others), you would know that what we do does work.

    No, it’s not a miracle and huge swaths of people don’t all see the light at once. It doesn’t work that way, it never has. See my post upthread at #26 for one example. In the thread where that person was eventually enlightened, it felt, once again like we were all slamming our heads into the proverbial wall. However, a dyed-in-the-wool MRA rape apologist did become enlightened and now makes a difference when it comes to sexism.

    For every single thread on these issues, we hear from people who have changed their minds, have come to understand privilege, have come to understand how they were part of the problem.

    Consciousness raising isn’t easy and it’s hard work. You declaring you’re tired and really, just give up because it’s not working isn’t helping and you’ve now become part of the problem. That’s why you aren’t hearing what you want to hear. Instead of being concerned about being shouted down, perhaps you should listen to the women who not only continue to be activists but get to live with slurs, harassment, bigotry and the possibility of assault every day of our lives.

    I’m bisexual, Asian, genderqueer and like most, if not everyone here, a member of a religious minority.

    And? I’m female, over 50, bisexual, mixed race, childfree and atheist. So fucking what? We all have our little lists of what we are and aren’t. None of it is an excuse to sigh and moan. Things don’t change that way.

    Sorry if I don’t think that engaging with people with the same tactics over and over again and then wonder why we’re failing isn’t attractive to me as a call to arms for activism.

    No, you aren’t sorry. You’re upset no one is patting you on the back and telling you that you have every right to a pity party. The one sure way to guarantee failure is to give up in favour of moaning and whining about how it just isn’t working well enough or fast enough for you, and everyone else had better fucking agree with you, or else you’ll, you’ll…whine more!

    The good things in your life, you owe a great deal for many of them to feminists who have been fighting for decades on end and to those feminists now who refuse to give up, who refuse to stop, no matter how fucking tired of it all because we know it’s the right thing, the only thing to do.

    As I said, if you wish to sigh in surrender, go right ahead. Stop whining about it to us.

  2. taiki says

    That’s not clear to me at all. In what single “way” are progressives engaging on the Net? How is that way “not working”? If you feel that not enough people are being persuaded by the Progressive Approach(TM), what approach would be better, and do you have evidence to support your claim?

    Google “Tone argument.”

    Why is it cool for Phil Plait to invoke that amongst skeptics and atheists but the second that you tell that to anyone else it’s suddenly like you’re trying to silence them?

    I mean, I once saw a pair of threads on ontd_political on livejournal where one thread was the attempted refutation of the tone argument and the *very next* thread was the invocation of the tone argument on atheism.

  3. says

    Audley

    No worries. I have a quick trigger response to things involving breach of trust/abuse of power, like rape, child battery and such, is all.

  4. julian says

    @msironen

    I think the point is for you to realize why some (read many) women are afraid of rape and why they don’t automatically trust strange and unfamiliar men they are alone with.

  5. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    a) bear some gender-wide guilt,

    Where has anyone asked you to bear any guilt? Links and quotes please.

    How many times can I say this? We’re just asking you to be aware. We’re asking you not to act like a threat or act creepily. We’re asking you to fucking listen and try to empathize.

    Have you come up with any real arguments yet?

  6. msironen says

    How can someone identify you, or any other male, with 100% certainty of not being a potential rapist. Put up, or shut the fuck up. That is our point. Whether you like it or not, unless you can provide that certainty, you are a potential rapist.

    I’m meeeeltiing, MEELTIING, NO WAIT, Reductio ad absurdum to the rescue!

    You’re a potential massmurderer, pedophile and a WHORE. PROVE ME THAT YOU’RE NOT. UNTIL SUCH PROOF, I’M GOING TO CALL YOU A (potential) MASSMURDERER, PEDOPHILE AND A WHORE. AND THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO DENIGRATE YOU, MIND YOU.

  7. Friendly says

    bear some gender-wide guilt

    No one bears any “gender-wide guilt.” There is no such thing.

    But we men do have “gender-wide responsibility” to be thoughtful, considerate, and aware of how women might perceive our words and actions.

    Is that so horrible a prospect? Does the thought of asking every man to be thoughtful, considerate, and aware fill you with dread?? If so, why???

  8. Esteleth says

    You know what’s funny?
    I’m playing The Sims simultaneously to reading this thread, and the toddler (trapped in his crib), just screamed something that sounded uncannily like, “MOMMY! STOP SCREWING DADDY AND LET ME OUT!” As it happens, the toddler’s parents are in fact “woohooing.”

    You know what’s not funny?
    That yet another fucking argument that we’re being mean and not accomplishing anything is showing up.

  9. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Jesus, stop with the shouties. It’s not helping your argument, msironen.

  10. Amphigorey says

    You quote some rape statistic at me. Am I supposed to

    a) bear some gender-wide guilt,

    b) ask so what, since I have not committed any such crime?

    No. No, the point is not a guilt trip. The point is to illustrate just how scarily common rape and assault are, and to illuminate why women take precautions. The point is to get you to understand why women do not automatically trust you just because you claim to not be a rapist. Lots of men ARE rapists. You say you’re not one and I sure as hell hope you’re not. But don’t be surprised, hurt, or offended if women don’t immediately trust you enough to go home with you.

    Again, the point isn’t You Should Feel Guilty For Being Male. That’s totally a straw feminist, and nobody actually says that. The point is You Are Not Entitled To Anyone’s Trust. This shouldn’t even be a point of contention.

    Get it now?

    By the way, is this the part of feminism that you disagree with? Because if so, saying that you disagree is disingenuous when it’s clear that you don’t understand it. I mean, I don’t understand particle physics, but I’d never say that I disagree with it.

  11. msironen says

    “SR was written to help people understand how some of your actions could look to a woman. ”

    If one thing is obvious, it’s that SR wasn’t written for rapists. In fact it is a blatant attempt at guilt-tripping non-rapist men, just in case we don’t know our blame (and place).

  12. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Why is it cool for Phil Plait to invoke that amongst skeptics and atheists but the second that you tell that to anyone else it’s suddenly like you’re trying to silence them?

    Taiki, clearly you’re new here? Please go away and read until you know what you’re fucking talking about.

  13. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    If one thing is obvious, it’s that SR wasn’t written for rapists.

    Oh? Really? But five seconds ago you were kvetching that it said all men were rapists.

  14. Pteryxx says

    I can’t even have a discussion about why maybe making rude comments about women, GLBT folk, or minorities might be just stupid or rude to women, GLBT folk or minorities with out someone accusing me of being a Shakesville style radical feminist and taking everything I say way out of scope.

    Neither can anyone else. Ever. That’s what it means for an othered group to be silenced by the majority.

    Go look at Rebecca Watson’s blasphemy day video. It’s got some nice quotes from Robert Ingersoll on oppression of minority views.

  15. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    You’re a potential massmurderer, pedophile and a WHORE. PROVE ME THAT YOU’RE NOT. UNTIL SUCH PROOF, I’M GOING TO CALL YOU A (potential) MASSMURDERER, PEDOPHILE AND A WHORE. AND THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO DENIGRATE YOU, MIND YOU.

    Yep, this bit of idiocy by you, in a vain attempt to deflect us from noticing your lack of the required proof, also shows you are tacitly acknowledging the problem. You might not like being a potential rapist in the eyes of the woman on the street, but you are. Here’s why I’m honest and you aren’t. I willfully acknowledge I can’t prove to a casual observer I’m a potential mass murderer. But you aren’t honest enough to acknowledge the same regarding rape. Why is that fuckwit???

  16. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    If one thing is obvious, it’s that SR wasn’t written for rapists. In fact it is a blatant attempt at guilt-tripping non-rapist men, just in case we don’t know our blame (and place).

    All women do is nag, amiright guys?

  17. John Morales says

    [meta]

    I recall when Friendly was indistinguishable from a tone troll; cogency, perseverance and substance changed that.

    (Now a valued contributor; amazing what honesty and engagement can achieve, here)

  18. says

    If one thing is obvious, it’s that SR wasn’t written for rapists. In fact it is a blatant attempt at guilt-tripping non-rapist men, just in case we don’t know our blame (and place).

    If, by ‘guilt-tripping’ you mean ‘asking them to consider what thoughts might go through a woman’s head in given situations, and work to avoid distressing her as far as possible’, then yes.

  19. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Thread Bankrupt from 440 or so, but before I go back and read the rest, my hearty thanks to Caine, Nerd, Classical Cipher, SC, and all the rest who’ve fought and spit (yet again) against the clueless, selfish, disgusting MRAs.

    And all y’all tone trolls (I’m looking at you, DaveR)? What in the world do you want to shut your flakin’ pieholes for one damned second and spend some time pondering the real enemies instead of the allies who make your faint heart flutter with their gauche language?

    (Pssst- go fuck yourselves, sweethearts).

  20. says

    Taiki:

    Google “Tone argument.”

    We don’t need to, we’re more than familiar with Tone Trolls™ here. Again, read the damn comments, all of them, from the beginning on this thread.

    Why is it cool for Phil Plait to invoke that amongst skeptics and atheists but the second that you tell that to anyone else it’s suddenly like you’re trying to silence them?

    Who in the fuck here at Pharyngula has said that Plait’s DBAD argument was cool? There were multiple posts and threads about that whole issue here and the commentariat here aren’t too keen on accommodationists.

    You seem to be arguing about all manner of sites and how things are handled there, rather than saying anything pertinent about what goes on here at Pharyngula.

    Try to pull that muddle in your head into something coherent, would you?

  21. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Too true, msironen. Women talking to other people about how they do risk assessment is clearly nothing more than an attempt to make you feel bad. They should really just shut up. That’s also why I talk about being raped. Because I want to make you feel bad. It was really rude of me to, you know, have those horrendous experiences and not have the decency to shut up and be quiet about it. Everyone is persecuting you by having experiences and talking about them. You poor thing.

  22. msironen says

    Daz:

    Oh, sorry.

    Fact: 1 in 6 women in the U.S. are raped at some time in their lives, by a man.

    If you were in that situation, what means of risk-assessment/avoidance would you take, given that you have no way of telling which men are intent on rape, but knowing that a large proportion are?

    Associate with men I had good reason to assume were not rapists? And just in case yell “RAPIST”, since there’s a 1/6 chance I’ll be right?

    Obviously, the latter part is facile. But that’s the general line of reasoning here, with the rather tragic fallacy that since 1/n women are raped, 1/n men are rapists.

  23. Mr. Fire says

    “If you had a 1:6 chance of being raped by a member of a particular gender, what kind of measures would you take to avoid it happening, or to at least increase the odds?”

    = accusing me of rolling a d6 dice everytime I pass some by and attempting to rape them on a 6.

    Wait. How’s that again?

    So…you’re crossing a street, and there being a 1:6 chance of the approaching car being a drunk driver, is the same as the approaching car driver rolling a die and attempting to run you over on a 6?

  24. says

    Josh:

    And all y’all tone trolls

    Hallo Darlin’! Missed you. Stick this page for a while, Josh – we seem to have acquired a new tone troll, Taiki, who can’t quite seem to tell us what the problem is outside of the fact that we aren’t effective at all.

  25. Ze Madmax says

    msironen @ #214

    If one thing is obvious, it’s that SR wasn’t written for rapists. In fact it is a blatant attempt at guilt-tripping non-rapist men, just in case we don’t know our blame (and place).

    SR was written to explain men how things look from a woman’s perspective. If you read SR and get the message that you should be ashamed of having a penis, because it means you’ll rape someone, then you’re a Prime-quality, Top Rate Knucklehead.

    Hint: The message anyone with basic reading comprehension skills get from SR is that women can’t know if a stranger can be a risk, and the odds for it are significant enough that ignoring the probability of harm is an unacceptable risk (unlike your knucklehead-worthy comments earlier regarding brown people and airplanes.)

    Let me say that again:
    -SR says “guys, rape is an ever-present concern for many women because rape is a significant problem in society

    -SR does not say “guys, women think you’re gonna rape them, so don’t whine when you get maced”

  26. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Associate with men I had good reason to assume were not rapists?

    Oo! Like what? What sorts of reasons? Like, maybe, knowing someone for two years, being extremely emotionally close with them, watching them be decent to other people, being in all sorts of vulnerable situations with them without them harming you in any way?

  27. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    So, mswhateverthefuck, any links &/or quotes to anyone saying all men are rapists?

  28. taiki says

    And? I’m female, over 50, bisexual, mixed race, childfree and atheist. So fucking what? We all have our little lists of what we are and aren’t. None of it is an excuse to sigh and moan. Things don’t change that way.

    Just saying I don’t check every single box on the privilege worksheet. I’m coming to you from a point of view that’s had to deal with arguing someone else who’s had a long held preconceived notion of what I was even talking about in the first place.

    No, you aren’t sorry. You’re upset no one is patting you on the back and telling you that you have every right to a pity party. The one sure way to guarantee failure is to give up in favour of moaning and whining about how it just isn’t working well enough or fast enough for you, and everyone else had better fucking agree with you, or else you’ll, you’ll…whine more!

    The good things in your life, you owe a great deal for many of them to feminists who have been fighting for decades on end and to those feminists now who refuse to give up, who refuse to stop, no matter how fucking tired of it all because we know it’s the right thing, the only thing to do.

    As I said, if you wish to sigh in surrender, go right ahead. Stop whining about it to us.

    No, I’m not sorry. Oops, the internet doesn’t carry sarcasm too well.

    This isn’t about being patted on the back. This is about not having to deal with a meta-discussion I didn’t start and I’m not looking to continue but yet, the person I’m trying to communicate with is trying to pigeon hole me into. If fighting for my rights means having to give up my sense of skepticism and assess whether or not what’s going on is even right, then I don’t think I want to have any part in that.

    I mean, you’re right, I do owe a lot to feminists who’ve come before me, but, as we move on, I just don’t see a lot to be optimistic about.

  29. msironen says

    I willfully acknowledge I can’t prove to a casual observer I’m a potential mass murderer. But you aren’t honest enough to acknowledge the same regarding rape. Why is that fuckwit???

    Because, dear dimwit, that is TRIVIALLY true. Where you and your ilk go astray is trying to attach meaning to this triviality and with it bludgeon your target into submission.

  30. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Also, do you lock your house at night, even though the potential for it being broken into is actually pretty low?

  31. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    triviality

    My inability to assess with certainty whether any given man will become the third to rape me: a triviality.

  32. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Associate with men I had good reason to assume were not rapists? And just in case yell “RAPIST”, since there’s a 1/6 chance I’ll be right?

    How do you prove to the woman, with a casual glance by her, with 100% certainty, that your aren’t a rapist, or any other man they meet isn’t the rapist. Don’t avoid the question, which is what you are doing. Face it and recognize what it means. You may not like the answer, and I don’t give a flying fuck about that. But you really need to answer the question without paranoia or distaste of the answer on your part.

  33. taiki says

    We don’t need to, we’re more than familiar with Tone Trolls™ here. Again, read the damn comments, all of them, from the beginning on this thread.

    Yeah, because people don’t have their emotions twisted one way or the other because of the tone of a discussion. Perfectly reasonable to just say that tone trolls are morons and never actually care about how you come off on the internet.

  34. says

    msironen

    Associate with men I had good reason to assume were not rapists?

    Have you not read this thread at all? Most rapes are, in fact, committed by people known to, and trusted by, the victim. Millions of women would really like to know how you, in your infinite wisdom, can tell the fucking difference between a rapist and a non-rapist.

    Again I ask; given that you probably aren’t infinitely wise, what measures of risk assessment and avoidance would you take to lengthen those one-in-six odds?

  35. John Morales says

    [OT]

    taiki:

    I’m [1] bisexual, [2] Asian, [3] genderqueer [4] and like most, if not everyone here, a member of a religious minority.

    1. Meh.

    2. Meh.

    3. Meh.

    4. You’re religious? You have my sympathy.

    (But you can overcome that, with a bit of intellectual honesty and existential bravery. I encourage you to do so)

  36. Pteryxx says

    Not that MRA-ronen’s interested in actual facts or statistics, but about 10% of men admit to being rapists on anonymous questionnaires.

    I keep this comment around for easy pasting, since I need it so often.

    According to “Meet the Predators” which references men self-reporting their rape attempts, a sample of about 1900 male college students contained 120 who announced 438 attempted or completed rapes. Let’s say those rapes happened to the comparably sized female student population, and for the sake of argument, that any given woman was ‘only’ assaulted once. What would 438 rapes and sexual assaults among 2000 or so women work out to?

    22% of women.

    You still think rape statistics are padded?

    Source: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-predators/

    Men. Self-reporting. 22%.

  37. Just_A_Lurker says

    Associate with men I had good reason to assume were not rapists?

    So even though you have been told the probability of a woman being raped by people they know and trust, you still want to pull this out of your ass?

    Your suggestion here implies that women should not go out at night, or to bars/clubs, jobs, public transportation or in fact outside at all because they don’t know all those strange men and its just stupid to be around men you don’t know, right? And hey, if you do get raped, it was either your own fault for being around strange men or its just your bad luck with the stats.

    Or you could live in reality and fight against rape culture, rape apologists and such while women do risk assessment. Just like a certain essay…..

  38. says

    taiki

    If you don’t like the tone taken on a particular message board, may I humbly suggest that you choose one out of the millions available that you do like?

  39. says

    John:

    I recall when Friendly was indistinguishable from a tone troll; cogency, perseverance and substance changed that.

    Yep and Friendly deserves much credit for stopping to listen and think.

    msironen:

    You’re a potential massmurderer, pedophile and a whore. Prove me that you’re not. until such proof, I’m going to call you a (potential) massmurderer, pedophile and a whore. And this is in no way meant to denigrate you, mind you.

    You have no way of knowing if any stranger is a mass murderer, a pedophile or a prostitute until you are in a position where you find that out. You cannot tell by looking at someone if they are a murderer (mass or not) or a pedophile. As for someone being a prostitute*, you can often tell by looking, so I’m not sure why that’s in there.

    That’s the point, dipshit. You can’t tell by looking, that’s why people take reasonable precautions. Duh.

    *Why, exactly, did you need to pop off with the whole whore business? The majority of prostitutes, female and male are more likely to be harmed than harm. Just couldn’t handle another moment without yelling “whores!” to a bunch of feminists?

  40. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    But that’s the general line of reasoning here, with the rather tragic fallacy that since 1/n women are raped, 1/n men are rapists.

    Where, dumbass?

  41. Mr. Fire says

    Associate with men I had good reason to assume were not rapists?

    This thread and many threads before it just amassed into a single entity, lurched morosely forward, sprouted wings, and flew right over your fucking head.

  42. Philip Legge says

    If one thing is obvious, it’s that SR wasn’t written for rapists. In fact it is a blatant attempt at guilt-tripping non-rapist men, just in case we don’t know our blame (and place).

    Your mistake, again. It’s not about guilt-tripping: it’s an attempt to enlighten oblivious males like yourself that your intent is not magically obvious to other people you meet. The disinclination of people like you to voluntarily curb aspects of male behaviour that creep other people out, and call out that behaviour when you see it in other men, has the effect of giving “cover” to the real predators.

    Similarly, a question to psychoticatheist: are you proud for having clogged the thread with your blather at tedious length, and helping to “give cover” to the misogynists?

  43. John Morales says

    [OT]

    taiki:

    Google “Tone argument.”

    Why is it cool for Phil Plait to invoke that amongst skeptics and atheists

    Heh. I don’t need to Google it, I’ve followed that issue in real time. Were you familiar with Pharyngula, you’d know what its consensus about Phil’s tone argument was. ;)

    (Feel free to cite or quote where anyone here has intimated that’s cool)

  44. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Jesus Christ. You are really dense.

    I was talking about us, dumbass. An argument that was made here.

    But congratulations, I guess. After a couple of hundred comments or so, you finally managed to pull something out of your ass.

  45. Just_A_Lurker says

    Yeah, because people don’t have their emotions twisted one way or the other because of the tone of a discussion. Perfectly reasonable to just say that tone trolls are morons and never actually care about how you come off on the internet.

    Yes, because being emotionally involved in an important issue like this is wrong.

    Yes, because this is Pharyngula, where the history shows we all love accommodation and politeness.

    If you haven’t noticed, people have their own fucking styles and are free to be as nice or mean as they want. And those whose tone you don’t like, couldn’t give a fuck less about how we come off to people like you.

    Don’t like it? Leave there are plenty of other places on the world wide net where you will feel welcome.

  46. msironen says

    That’s the point, dipshit. You can’t tell by looking, that’s why people take reasonable precautions. Duh.

    Oh, please.

    *Why, exactly, did you need to pop off with the whole whore business? The majority of prostitutes, female and male are more likely to be harmed than harm. Just couldn’t handle another moment without yelling “whores!” to a bunch of feminists?”

    Well, it might’ve been just some kind of attempt at achieving parity with the “rapist”-charges, but it was probably just me not being able to keep a lid on my raging… misogyny. You probably had me there.

  47. Pteryxx says

    Tell you what, MRA-ronen, you go right ahead and have “I AM NOT A RAPIST” tattooed on your forehead. Because that’ll totally solve the problem. Er, the problem of your hurt feelings, that is. It won’t solve the problem of actual rape, but that was never your point, now was it.

  48. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Oh, please.

    Good try. I really like that you stopped spewing idiocies. “Oh please” is way better. But try real arguments next time.

  49. John Morales says

    msironen:

    If one thing is obvious, it’s that SR wasn’t written for rapists. In fact it is a blatant attempt at guilt-tripping non-rapist men, just in case we don’t know our blame (and place).

    Wow, you’re a real doofus.

    Again: The wicked flee when no man pursueth.

    (Then again, I’m righteous, so I don’t have a guilt-trip over this. I merely acknowledge reality.

    Perhaps, one day, you too can achieve my exalted status!)

  50. Just_A_Lurker says

    Why, exactly, did you need to pop off with the whole whore business? The majority of prostitutes, female and male are more likely to be harmed than harm. Just couldn’t handle another moment without yelling “whores!” to a bunch of feminists?

    Oh thank you Caine, I couldn’t figure out how to comment on that. It is just so far fucking wrong. >.<

  51. msironen says

    I actually have a 100% efficient method of reducing the amount of rapes by me. My trick is to not commit then.

  52. Esteleth says

    Alright everyone, I’m tired.

    I’d help out more with dealing with the troll, but unfortunately I’m exhausted and trolled-out.

    I’ll be back in the morning!

  53. Friendly says

    Google “Tone argument.”

    Oh please. I know what a tone argument is. My first comments on this blog were a tone argument and it got shot down verrrry quickly.

    If you’re declaring that progressive engagement on the Internet is failing because we’re being rude, crude, and mean, I have news for you. Being nice fails much harder. It seems to me that the reactionaries cleaned liberalism’s clock on the Net for years because the right wing were being as nasty and hideous as possible, spewing hate and misinformation 24/7, and while a lot of the left wing tried to be “respectful and conciliatory”, lots of moderates concluded our team was weak and ineffectual and joined the Dark Side. Thank goodness that those days seem to be passing!

    I’m willing to play nice with right-wingers who are also willing to play nice, and engage in real discussion involving real ideas and real data. But when that group — or anyone else — just pukes all over a thread, leaving comments with insincere arguments that have been rebutted many times before, leveling unfounded accusations, shooting flamethrowers of fear and jaundice and smarm everywhere…nope, I’m not willing to put on the white gloves and host a garden party.

    You’ve stated that progressives are “engaging with people with the same tactics over and over again.” I think that’s pretty rich. Who is it, by and large, who’s more prone to barge into Internet threads with “the same tactics over and over again” — no reason, no evidence, no actual willingness to debate honestly or change their positions, just loads and loads of superheated bile? A hint: It ain’t the progressives.

  54. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    I actually have a 100% efficient method of reducing the amount of rapes by me. My trick is to not commit then.

    I’m waiting for an answer to my question, kiddo. What “good reasons” do you have to assume a man isn’t a rapist? Did mine sound good to you?

  55. says

    Taiki:

    Perfectly reasonable to just say that tone trolls are morons and never actually care about how you come off on the internet.

    Stop being such an idiot, will you? You are not responding to anything people are actually saying, you’re simply repeating the same whine over and over. That’s a problem with tone trolls. One we keep finding ourselves having to explain.

    It’s not a matter of “tone trolls are morons.” It’s a matter of us explaining, over and over and over and over and over that if your personal style is one that is quiet or accommodating or polite or whatever, then go ahead and use it! No one here cares about that at all. One more time, if you had bothered to read the fucking comments in this thread, you would know that.

    Desert Son posted in this thread and I used him as an example to a tone troll, one Dave R. Desert Son is consistently polite, thoughtful and educational in his posts. That’s his way and he is not only highly respected, but he was noisily and happily nominated for a Molly and received one. Another commenter here, Sastra, is known for her patience and polite tone. She is also highly respected and another person who received a Molly.

    They approach things their own way. Not one single time have the commentariat here scolded them or told them their tone is wrong. You know why? Because they simply use the approach they wish to use and do not tell the rest of us that we should be like them, they do not tell us we’re mean, they do not tell us we shouldn’t cuss so much, etc.

    What you’re doing is the standard tone troll tactic – rather than addressing the topic at hand in a manner you find to be good, you’re insisting on telling us that what we’re doing is wrong and we should change. You’re offering us shit on a plate and getting upset because we aren’t eating it.

    You want to be all sweetness, light and nice? Go for it. (Oh, that’s right, you can’t, because it isn’t doing any good. Darn.) So, what you’re settling for is telling us how we should behave.

    Now I haven’t told you to fuck off just yet, but fair warning, I’m getting close.

  56. says

    I actually have a 100% efficient method of reducing the amount of rapes by me. My trick is to not commit then.

    Great. Now all you need to do is figure out how to convey to women who might meet you in confined spaces, dark streets etc that you’ve made that commitment. Hint: shouting ‘It’s okay, I’m not a rapist’ isn’t going to work.

  57. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Oh, please.

    You didn’t answer the question cupcake. Why was that? You didn’t like the answer, and are a dishonest fuckwit?

    ut it was probably just me not being able to keep a lid on my raging… misogyny.

    Unless you can answer the question on the table honestly, and act on the honest answer, you are misogynist.

    So, how does anyone, not just a woman, tell with a casual glance you aren’t a potential rapist?

    Cupcake, you know, but can’t accept the honest answer, which is they can’t. You must take that into account in your behavior. Not doing that makes you a misogynist.

  58. Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism says

    msironen

    = accusing me of rolling a d6 dice everytime I pass some by and attempting to rape them on a 6

    No. You have it backwards.

    Every time a woman meets a new man she rolls a d10*. She does not see the result of the roll. On a 10 the man is both capable and willing to rape. She will find out who has the 10 and whether he has ill intentions toward her if/when she lets her guard down and he rapes her. She may know and trust him for many years before he does this.

    Quit being a self centered scumbag for a minute and consider what you would do in that situation. Its the game women play with all their male interactions.

    *using the stats from Esteleth @ 159

  59. otrame says

    Amphigory

    Look, if I’m dining alone at a restaurant, I’ll take my wallet with me when I go to use the restroom. Doing so doesn’t mean I’m accusing all the other diners of being thieves or potential thieves; it means I’m being sensible and exercising due caution.

    YES. That is an excellent analogy. Very well done.
    Now, msironen and you other blockheads out there, add in the relative results of mis-judging the situation (getting your wallet stolen or getting raped and possibly murdered). NOW can you see what we are talking about?

  60. Just_A_Lurker says

    Well, it might’ve been just some kind of attempt at achieving parity with the “rapist”-charges, but it was probably just me not being able to keep a lid on my raging… misogyny. You probably had me there.

    whore and rapist are NOT the same. Not even in the same sphere.

  61. taiki says

    You know, I don’t… I don’t think I’ll ever get it. I’m just going to avoid these threads from here on.

    I just don’t understand where feminism and liberalism is going anymore.

    I really REALLY boggle my mind at misogyny and yeah, it fills me with some angst and ennui. Sorry for using a very violent potentially triggering imagery, but, yeah. Reading that “Rebeccunt Twatson” is somehow an appropriate nickname for anyone kind of reminds me of what a Dementor’s Kiss is described as.

  62. Toiletman says

    Men rape.
    Women rape at a much lower frequency but they also do.
    Dolphins rape too, quite regularly, but normally just their own kind.

    Conclusion: avoid men, women and dolphins, especially if you are a female dolphin yourself. Everybody could be a rapist, murderer, serial killer or libertarian. Solipsism for the win!

  63. Philip Legge says

    I actually have a 100% efficient method of reducing the amount of rapes by me. My trick is to not commit then.

    And exactly how, is everyone you meet in the real world supposed to know this? What behaviours do you perform to put people at ease? What actions do you refrain from to avoid creeping others out?

    I know this hard for you, but please try to put some thought into your answers.

  64. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Reading that “Rebeccunt Twatson” is somehow an appropriate nickname for anyone kind of reminds me of what a Dementor’s Kiss is described as.

    Many of us feel much the same way about it. You’re doing wrong by blaming the people who are trying to push back against it, and you’re doing wrong by telling us that we should all give up because you have.

  65. msironen says

    Sorry, it’s nearing 7am here and I really gotta get some sleep also. But I’m gonna leave you all with this to mull over:

    The saddest part of this whole contemptible witch-hunt, though, is that several of the people who are still spittle-spewing ranters against the Skepchicks were also appreciated members of the skeptical community

    Again, PZ assumes he (and his faction) is in some kind of position to “discommunicate” undesirables from the “flock” and the commentary here strongly echoes the sentiment. This is both sad and amusing on many fronts, but I expect it will be lost on most of the readers here.

  66. Mr. Fire says

    Because, dear dimwit, that is TRIVIALLY true.

    Dismissing something as ‘trivially true’ is orthogonal to assessing its potential for actually happening.

    It is ‘trivially’ true that I can’t prove I’m not going to murder everyone dear to you.

    It is ‘trivially’ true that I can’t prove I’m going to eat lunch tomorrow.

    Yet the chances of me murdering everyone dear to you, and the chances of me eating lunch tomorrow, are likely not the same.

    Follow-up: Where do you think rapists lie on between those two points?

  67. Philip Legge says

    Toiletman,

    I’d be quite happy for you to avoid men, women, and dolphins. Perhaps you might want to step away from the Internet connection as well; the adults are talking.

  68. says

    Pteryxx:

    According to “Meet the Predators”

    There’s also Predator Redux, which is well worth reading (if one isn’t braindead or reading-phobic, that is.)

    Here’s a bit:

    The analysis I want to focus on is this paper, Understanding The Predatory Nature Of Sexual Violence.

    Lisak says that the research on the psychological characteristics of incarcerated rapists also applies to the undetected:

    Many of the motivational factors that were identified in incarcerated rapists have been shown to apply equally to undetected rapists. When compared to men who do not rape, these undetected rapists are measurably more angry at women, more motivated by the need to dominate and control women, more impulsive and disinhibited in their behavior, more hyper-masculine in their beliefs and attitudes, less empathic and more antisocial.

    Guys with rigid views of gender roles and an axe to grind against women in general are overrepresented among rapists. That won’t come as a surprise to most readers here, I expect. But it is important confirmation. Guys who seem to hate women … do. If they sound like they don’t like or respect women and see women as impediments to be overcome … they’re telling the truth. That’s what they think, and they will abuse if they think they can get away with it.

    Lisak doesn’t actually say this, but having read some of his work in depth now, I really think the major difference between the incarcerated and the non-incarcerated rapists are that the former cannot or do not confine themselves to tactics that are low-risk to them. The undetected rapists overwhelmingly use minimal or no force, rely mostly on alcohol and rape their acquaintances. They create situations where the culture will protect them by making excuses for them and questioning or denying their victims. Incarcerated rapists, I think, are just the ones who use the tactics that society is more willing to recognize as rape and less willing to make excuses for.

    It is the modus operandi that keeps the undetected rapist undetected: they correctly identify a methodology that will put them under the protection of the rape culture. They are unlikely to be convicted because the story doesn’t fit the script. In fact, they are unlikely to be arrested because the story doesn’t lead to easy convictions. In fact, they are unlikely to be reported because rape survivors know that the tactics these men use leave them with little real recourse. In fact, these rapists may put the victim in a position where she is so intoxicated or terrified or just isolated and defeated that she never even says “no,” and because the culture overwhelmingly refuses to call these tactics what they are, even the victims themselves may be unable to call it rape for a very long time afterward, if ever.

    Lisak describes the characteristics of their methodology:

    In the course of 20 years of interviewing these undetected rapists, in both research and forensic settings, it has been possible for me to distill some of the common characteristics of the modus operandi of these sex offenders. These undetected rapists:
    • are extremely adept at identifying “likely” victims, and testing prospective victims’ boundaries;
    • plan and premeditate their attacks, using sophisticated strategies to groom their victims for attack, and to isolate them physically;
    • use “instrumental” not gratuitous violence; they exhibit strong impulse
    control and use only as much violence as is needed to terrify and coerce their victims into submission;
    • use psychological weapons – power, control, manipulation, and threats – backed up by physical force, and almost never resort to weapons such as knives or guns;
    • use alcohol deliberately to render victims more vulnerable to attack, or completely unconscious.

  69. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    But I’m gonna leave you all with this to mull over:

    Translation: I don’t have shit, so I’m going to make a clumsy segue and pretend no one noticed.

  70. Just_A_Lurker says

    Also, I meant to add, I hate the word whore. Seriously, its just fucking dumb that women get labeled for having sex. Or when its actually applied to sex workers and their situation is just so horrendous. Insult to injury indeed.

    Rapist = actually title of those that force themselves sexually upon others.

    Whore = term used to shame women, for either being a victim in a sex industry or for being in control of her sexuality and doing it her way.

    Also, if you really wanted to be accurate in your misogyny, you’d call us bitches since we are having sex, just not with you.

  71. Friendly says

    I just don’t understand where feminism and liberalism is going anymore. […]
    Reading that “Rebeccunt Twatson” is somehow an appropriate nickname for anyone kind of reminds me of what a Dementor’s Kiss is described as.

    An apt analogy, but I deny that “Rebeccunt Twatson” is an appropriate nickname for anyone, and I submit that anyone who calls Rebecca Watson by such a name is neither feminist nor liberal.

  72. says

    Jeebus, it’s gone 5 am here. I, too, must wend my weary way to, erm, a synonym for ‘bed’ starting with ‘w’.

    G’night all.

  73. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    As an afterthought to my 248:

    I bet you can find quotes to support any position on this crazy thing called the internet. Kicking puppies? Chad Ochocinco has got your back!

    It’s time for me to start doing whatever it takes for me to get out of here, and I do mean anything. I’ll kick puppies, kittens…small children…anything that gets between me and gettin’ outta town. You don’t respect Ocho Cinco and Ocho Cinco don’t respect you. Or your little dog.

    Let’s try on something a little more controversial, huh? How about “women are whores”:

    Women know themselves almost as well as I know them. They know they’re prone to emotion and anger, and they know they’re all whores. That’s why they get so goddamn upset when I say it. To a woman, calling attention to her innate prostitution is more true than anything else I could possibly say.

    But that’s only because women understand math and science about as far as a dog can shit.

    Women crave money because they don’t have things like purple hearts, fist fights, and prom queens. They have nothing to validate their self-worth except how much a man will pay for access to their vagina. That’s why they spend money like it’s poison. The albatross of a 100 dollar bill is nothing but shame to a woman. It is a constant reminder of her nature.

    All women are whores.

    From the charmingly titled blog Men Are Better Than Women.

    My point is that you really can find any position supported by someone, but that doesn’t mean that it is germane to the conversation at hand. Simply because you’ve found one quote from a woman has said that “all men are rapists”, doesn’t mean that all (or any) of us agree. Although, if you can show me where one of us has supported this position, I’m all ears (er, eyes).

  74. Mr. Fire says

    Conclusion: avoid men, women and dolphins, especially if you are a female dolphin yourself

    The fact that you yourself give some rudimentary probabilities for each class right above this shit-for-brains conclusion – wherein you ignore those very same probabilities – seems to have escaped you.

  75. says

    Audley, there’s also the ever so charming latest from that cockroach Vox Day (which was brought up on the first page of this thread:

    I don’t believe I could recommend this as a strategy for most men, but it is surely educational to learn that raping and killing a woman is demonstrably more attractive to women than behaving like a gentleman. And women, before all the inevitable snowflaking commences, please note that there is absolutely nothing to argue about here. It is an established empirical fact.

    I would go so far to argue that if you are being introduced to a woman you find attractive, she will be more attracted to you if you slap her in the face without warning and walk away without explanation than if you smile and tell her that you are very pleased to meet her. Now this, being a mere hypothesis, can be argued. And tested, if you’re feeling especially scientific this weekend.

    Now, please note that I am not saying that women dislike men behaving like gentlemen, it’s only that they don’t find it attractive. It’s irrelevant. It’s analogous to the male perspective on a woman having a good job or an impressive degree. Men don’t dislike these things, they just don’t have anything to do with whether a man is attracted to the woman possessing them or not.

    I’ll have to ask Mister if he’s sorry he didn’t slap me to express his attraction to me.

  76. Just_A_Lurker says

    Just_A_Lurker, I’d like to point out that there are many male prostitutes. It’s wrong to view prostitution or sex workers as female only.

    Too true. I should have mentioned that. My apologies.

  77. Mr. Fire says

    Just ignore it, please. Responding does nothing except to further xis goal of derailing threads. Thanks.

    Oh yeah sorry about that guess I did that too

  78. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Caine:
    Ugh.

    It is an established empirical fact.

    I’m guessing that Vox Day doesn’t know the definition of “established”, “empirical”, or “fact”.

  79. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    You know, I don’t… I don’t think I’ll ever get it. I’m just going to avoid these threads from here on.

    I just don’t understand where feminism and liberalism is going anymore.

    That’s because you don’t want to understand. You’ve been told, several times, that you can be as nice and polite as you want. What you can’t do is tell everyone else to be nice and polite. Is this too difficult to grasp?

  80. Sally Strange, OM says

    The majority of prostitutes, female and male are more likely to be harmed than harm. Just couldn’t handle another moment without yelling “whores!” to a bunch of feminists?”

    Well, it might’ve been just some kind of attempt at achieving parity with the “rapist”-charges,

    Rapists HURT PEOPLE. Whores do not.

    but it was probably just me not being able to keep a lid on my raging… misogyny

    Wow! MRAronen finally said something that wasn’t a lie. I really am shocked. Yes, MRAronen, asserting–even in jest–that rapists are on par with sex workers is pretty much a textbook example of misogyny in action.

    Thanks for finally being honest and admitting that you do, in fact, hate women, as a class.

    If you read the quote from “Meet the Predators” above, you’d know that hostile attitudes towards women are an indicator that this is a guy with a higher than average probability of being an ACTUAL (not potential) rapist.

    So if you really want people to believe you when you say you’re not a rapist, one thing that would make it more convincing is if you’d drop the misogyny.

  81. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    It is an established empirical fact.

    Translation: It’s a fucked up opinion that Pox Day pulled out of his large intestine.

  82. John Morales says

    [meta]

    msironen:

    That’s the point, dipshit. You can’t tell by looking, that’s why people take reasonable precautions. Duh.

    Oh, please.

    The bleeding obvious intimidates you so much that you cry for mercy when confronted by it?

    (That it’s beyond your competence to grasp (never mind contend against) the proposition and so resort to blustering evasion, thus evincing your cowardice and impotence, is rather amusing.

    Please come back, O chew-toy)

  83. amphiox says

    Again, PZ assumes he (and his faction) is in some kind of position to “discommunicate” undesirables from the “flock” and the commentary here strongly echoes the sentiment.

    Oh, MAN the projection the is strong in this one.

    How else can one go from “sad” to “Rah Rah let’s kick’em ALL out, Rah Rah!”

    I actually have a 100% efficient method of reducing the amount of rapes by me. My trick is to not commit then.

    Well then, all you have to do is COMMUNICATE THIS via your conduct and behavior, and Schrodinger’s Rapist will never be your problem.

    You see, Schrodinger’s Rapist applies the most to first encounters with unknown men. A man need only act in such a way as to assure the woman that he will never, ever, under any circumstances, ever rape her, that she will always be safe with him, and the whole issue goes away.

    And it IS act, not say. Actions speak louder than words here. Much louder.

  84. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @msironen –

    wanted (presumably gender) equality so you chose “whore” for parity with “rapist”?

    Well, first it’s true that these behaviors are both pangender, but are biased by social forces in such a way that a large majority of each belong to only one gender, and the genders in question are not the same gender.

    But that’s not all you need for gender parity. A rapist disregards your autonomy and uses power to take away your capacity to choose for yourself whether or not you wish to have sex. The consequences of such non-consensual sex are many. Though each rape is idiosyncratic, as is each victim’s response to that rape, it is not at all uncommon for serious psychological trauma, social disfunction & sexual disfunction to result. Though you have no control over whether or not condoms are used, you can also never be sure that a rapist does not have an std. Thus there is a risk of STDs that is fully outside of your control.

    A “whore” respects your autonomy, generally submitting to the frequently-greater power of the customer. A whore accepts money willingly offered, and, in exchange for minimal conditions such as the use of condoms, accepts the authority of the customer to rule choice of activity within broad limits or boundaries. The consequences of patronizing a whore is that money you voluntarily choose to give away is given away and, if you refuse the reasonable request of a given whore to permit condoms during sex, there is a risk of STDs, however this is fully under the control of the customer.

    So, do those behaviors look the same? Is that parity? Fear that someone will actually fulfill your express desires? Fear that if the price is something you aren’t willing to pay you get to keep your money until you decide that someone does have a fee scale in line with your desire to pay? Fear that you have complete control over the sexual interaction?

    Really, what’s the big fear of whores?

    As for rapists, from the outside (not being a rapist) it really doesn’t look like the rapists are offering the same deal as the whores.

    But you’re the one who brought up this analogy. Please, tell us. How exactly are raping and accepting money freely offered the same?

  85. Sally Strange, OM says

    Again, PZ assumes he (and his faction) is in some kind of position to “discommunicate” undesirables from the “flock” and the commentary here strongly echoes the sentiment.

    There’s no “discommunication” here. There’s a community that’s fighting over which values define it. If it turns out that the community puts “women are people” as one of its defining values, then yes, you, MRAronen, and your ilk are “undesirables” and you’ll find yourselves less and less welcome at atheist/skeptic conferences and gathering, in publications, online, and so forth.

    It’s happening on a broader scale in society. The outcome hasn’t been determined yet, but if historical trends (towards enfranchisement of marginalized groups, towards equality, and away from bigotry) hold true, then you’ll find yourself left in the dust as the rest of the world moves on. Misogyny is becoming less and less acceptable, much as has happened with racism during the past 40-50 years. It’s a dinosaur, but apparently it’s your pet dinosaur, and you love it. Well, have fun with your dinosaur but don’t try to hold the rest of us back.

  86. amphiox says

    Conclusion: avoid men, women and dolphins, especially if you are a female dolphin yourself

    I hope this idiot realizes that female dolphins DO, in fact, take precautions against male dolphins. Adult females will form pods that exclude the majority of adult males, most of the time.

    Of course they cannot exclude the males ALL time since, since they need to (and want to?) breed.

    Human females have much the same dilemma.

  87. Tapetum says

    Ick – VD. His attachment to actual reality is tenuous, on his good days. And the reality he’s maintaining in his own head is a really, really disturbing place.

    ms-whatisface really doesn’t understand the concept of reasonable precautions, if it has any impact on his precious feelings, does he? Odds are he’s being honest, and really is a perfectly safe, non-rapey sort. But it’s still playing the odds. I’m pretty sure my first boyfriend would be very indignant if someone decided he might be a rapist – he’s a good guy! Except that it isn’t a might. He is a rapist; he just doesn’t think he is. After all, what’s a spot of coercion and blackmail between friends, right?

    I’m not too sure of the 1/6 or 1/4 statistics myself. I’ve been suspicious ever since a night in college, where a random group of women were having one of those all night talking sessions, where you start off strangers, and end up telling your darkest secrets. Six random women who happened to live on the same floor of the same dorm. Five of six had been raped or molested, and none of us was over 20 yet.

  88. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    I’m pretty sure my first boyfriend would be very indignant if someone decided he might be a rapist – he’s a good guy! Except that it isn’t a might. He is a rapist; he just doesn’t think he is.

    I’ve often wondered if mine realizes he is. I told him, once, after I had told him no, I didn’t want to, and begged him to stop while he did it anyway, and finally just lay quietly crying until he finished. It actually seemed to get through to him, for a second. I don’t remember exactly what happened, but he paused, then said “that was… that was rape?” Not in an incredulous way, not in a sarcastic way, in a sort of genuinely stricken way. But I dropped the issue immediately, and we no longer speak, so I’ll never know.

  89. chigau () says

    Dr. Audley

    I’m guessing that Vox Day doesn’t know the definition of “established”, “empirical”, or “fact”.

    I’m guessing that Vox Day doesn’t know the definition of “It”, “is”, or “an”.

  90. says

    John:

    The bleeding obvious intimidates you so much that you cry for mercy when confronted by it?

    It would seem so. It’s interesting that our chew toy brought up pedophiles, because if Schroedinger’s Rapist was slightly altered into Schroedinger’s Pedophile, I doubt the idiot would have all that much of a problem with it. Then again…

    I’d say a majority of parents are concerned about pedophiles and take all the precautions they possibly can to ensure the safety of their children in that regard. I’d also say the majority of parents are cautious when encountering strangers who may be around their children because…wait for it…they can’t tell who may or may not be a pedophile!

    Golly, it’s all so unreasonable!

    During the Egate fallout, I related a story about an elevator and my husband. While I was in the hospital, Mister came to visit me and was waiting for an elevator. There was a man with two young children also waiting for an elevator. A car arrived and opened, Mister got in and gestured to the man with children. He shook his head and said he’d wait for the next car.

    That man was taking precautions on behalf of his young children. Was he acting unreasonably? No. Was he wrong? No. He was simply taking what he felt to be the safe course of action. Shroedinger’s Pedophile in action.

  91. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Of course, that same guy was the bullying sociopath who called me a crazy bitch every time we had a disagreement, lied continuously throughout our relationship, attacked me physically, cheated on me, and just generally treated me like shit. So… probably not? Maybe it just doesn’t matter to him?

  92. says

    Classical Cipher:

    Maybe it just doesn’t matter to him?

    As he raped you, in spite of the fact that he was supposedly someone who cared about you, in spite of the fact that he dismissed your pleas for him to stop, in spite of the fact that he had the opportunity to realize what he was about to do and did it anyway, yeah, I’d say it didn’t matter to him.

  93. Pteryxx says

    Heck, I used to think I’d never been raped, up until quite recently. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to find my rapist still thinks (or at least says) the same.

  94. otrame says

    You know, I think I finally figured out why I get so frustrated with people like msironen. It’s because I am assuming good faith, that if we just explain it enough ways, he’ll get it. I mean it would be so much easier to killfile him and move on. Yet we all keep trying to get him to see. At this point, though, it’s pretty clear he won’t. He’s enjoying his view of “those whores all want to castrate me” too much. He’s getting off on it. Unless he is very, VERY young, and can mature a little at some future date, he is doomed to failure after failure in relationships with women because he can’t even hear them.

    And yet we also know that engaging him has its uses. Much of the less virulent misogyny is the result of a lack of self-examination, not real ill will, and beating ourselves against concrete walls like msironen actually helps the education process.

    So to Caine, Janine, Cryp Dyke, Nigel the bold, Audrey, Friendly, ‘Tis, Sally, and several others, thank you. I love you. I really do. I don’t have either your wit or your stamina, but I will add my $0.02 worth when I can.

    But the old lady needs to get up early so I have to go. See you in the morning.

  95. julian says

    It is the modus operandi that keeps the undetected rapist undetected: they correctly identify a methodology that will put them under the protection of the rape culture. They are unlikely to be convicted because the story doesn’t fit the script. In fact, they are unlikely to be arrested because the story doesn’t lead to easy convictions. In fact, they are unlikely to be reported because rape survivors know that the tactics these men use leave them with little real recourse. In fact, these rapists may put the victim in a position where she is so intoxicated or terrified or just isolated and defeated that she never even says “no,” and because the culture overwhelmingly refuses to call these tactics what they are, even the victims themselves may be unable to call it rape for a very long time afterward, if ever.

    QF Fucking T.

    Rapist know society will first look to blame the victim. Rapists know we’ll try to make holes in their story, that we’ll ask how much they were drinking why did they go out with him or her, that we’ll put every tiny aspect of their life under a microscope because, no matter what we claim as a group, we still don’t see those few minutes (hours, days, weeks, months and years for the people who have to live with it) of violation as a big deal.

    We’re just as guilty as the rapist of silencing victims.

  96. John Morales says

    CC,

    I told him, once, after I had told him no, I didn’t want to, and begged him to stop while he did it anyway, and finally just lay quietly crying until he finished. It actually seemed to get through to him, for a second. I don’t remember exactly what happened, but he paused, then said “that was… that was rape?”

    Fuck. I came *this* close to that, it ain’t funny.

    [TMI]

    With my own wife! ‘Cos I felt entitled.
    ‘Cos I was a horny bastard.

    I stopped my assault, but assault it was.

    Yeah, I am ashamed of it. I will always be ashamed.

    Really. My gut churns as I write this, but I’m not gonna delete it before posting.

    I was a bloke, I was young and full of myself, back then.

    (Feeble excuse that it is.

    I think, I hope she’s forgiven me, but I haven’t)

  97. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    As he raped you, in spite of the fact that he was supposedly someone who cared about you, in spite of the fact that he dismissed your pleas for him to stop, in spite of the fact that he had the opportunity to realize what he was about to do and did it anyway, yeah, I’d say it didn’t matter to him.

    I guess you’re right. I just wonder about the word itself, the label. Would he be offended, if someone called him a rapist? Or is he okay with it, does he think of himself as one? I’d say probably not. But he was clearly okay with actually raping me.

    Heck, I used to think I’d never been raped, up until quite recently.

    *virtual hugs to pteryxx and Tapetum*

    I had very conflicted feelings about the whole thing even at the time. Obviously I’d said no, I was very clear about the fact that I didn’t want to, I truly meant that I didn’t want to, and he’d gone ahead and “had sex with” me anyway. But see, I had had this bullshit fed to me about what “real rape” is, and who “real victims” are, and I had it in my head that I couldn’t be one. Massive cognitive dissonance. Thus the dropping the subject.

  98. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    John, goodnight. I don’t know what is the right thing to say, and maybe this is all wrong, but I think it was very brave of you posting that. I think it shows a lot of strength that you’re able to see it for what it was, and that you try to face it, and even that you are ashamed of it. I’m glad you stopped. And I’m so glad you’re a better person now.

  99. Josh, Official SpokesGay says

    Michael Hawkins — Shut the fuck up. Like, forever. You’re a complete douche. The only laudable thing you ever did was take on a quack. You lost all those points being a dense shithead on every other issue here.

    You want PZ to write letters to the local print (circulation Nobody Cares) newspaper? You lying dumbass.

    DaveR (again) – yes, you are too an asshole. And a whiner. And a passive-aggressive little simperer. Piss off. I don’t care what your first language might be. Whatever it is, it starts with Prissy Affected Woundedness.

    Eat me.

    Hillary Rettig-

    Dave, I totally agree with your assessment of the culture on the Pharyngula threads. Yesterday, I posted the mild suggestion that, to be more inclusive to marginalized voices (including women), PZ set some formal guidelines for the comments. The provenance for that idea is excellent – it’s what most of the feminist blogs do, and PZ has come close to doing it in the past. PZ shot the idea down, and I didn’t push back at all – it’s his blog, after all. But I still got called ignorant, a concern-trolling pearl clutcher, and told that I don’t understand the way these threads are supposed to work (?).

    I’ve been standing here with a cigarette in one hand and a wet-nap in the other waiting to wipe your little bottom and put some ointment on it, but you keep going on. Gesture or something once you’re over the colic, ‘kay?

    Oh hell, I can’t be bothered to go on; I’d rather have a sandwich. What a pitiful fucking display.

  100. Sally Strange, OM says

    My ex, who DID do what John Morales stopped himself from doing, eventually recognized that he did something wrong.

    After I broke up with him, and told him why, he wrote me letters later on saying that he felt so bad, he wished he could chop off his “precious lingam.”

    But he didn’t. Oh well.

    Then he went and joined the 12 Tribes Christian Cultists.

  101. A. Noyd says

    Hillary Rettig (#579)

    PZ is right that he’s not the whole Internet and that people can go elsewhere if they want a gentler discussion, but asking for more inclusiveness without working towards it in his own blog seriously undermines his message.

    You’re probably not still reading, but maybe someone can point you here next time you complain about the Bullies of Pharyngula. See, here’s the thing. I don’t feel included when I’m asked to be less confrontational or to avoid cussing and insults. That’s just how I am. It’s enough trouble putting my thoughts into coherent language; it’s a whole nother layer of difficulty to edit everything I say to fit someone else’s idea of propriety. Know what, though? Places like Pharyngula don’t demand that extra effort. Places like Pharyngula, people are interested in what I say, not how I say it, and that’s wonderful.

    Your obsessive hand wringing over whether Pharyngula is inclusive enough for marginalized people pisses me off. As a socially-inept, argumentative woman with mental illness, Pharyngula is one of the few places I can come to kick back and feel completely included without having to smother aspects of my personality under social graces or conceal the fact of my gender. No place can cater to everyone’s comfort levels, and it’s fine if you don’t like the culture here, but for fuck’s sake, stop pretending you’re the champion of people like me when you try to scold PZ into changing the rules to suit your own personal tastes.

  102. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Alright, nothing ever gets deleted and maybe this will come back to haunt me some day, but I’ll say it, since it’s relevant to the conversation. FSM help me if this ever gets back to my family. …

    *trigger warning*

    I’ve been raped by two different people & sexually assaulted once. The first person to rape me, well, this isn’t going to make sense yet, but the first “person” to rape me was two people. So, I guess by three people, kinda, but it’s complex.

    See, the first person to rape me was my sister. She thought that I needed to know what sex was …and also wanted to teach her best friend what sex was …so on the first weekend that my mother ever left us alone overnight, my sister organized some sex. She didn’t tell me she was going to. She didn’t really know what she was doing. She was 13 yo and in charge of a 10yo. Her best friend was also 13, and talked with her in advance about what they were going to do to me in their experiments, but her best friend was somewhat reluctant. She started off without qualms about making me strip, but participated in ordering me around. I started off with qualms, but also curiosity about what sex was & what would happen. When things got worse and their experiments were literally stripping my *flesh* and causing bleeding, she was trying to back out & my sister was forcing her on. I was raped with an object. My sister ordered her friend & me to do things she wanted done. Then she ordered me to do things to her. I literally begged her to stop, with tears in my eyes. When it was over, she threatened me to keep me silent. I’ve never really held her friend culpable (I suppose that was obvious since I started out not counter her, I still don’t know to what extent she was victim & what extent it’s fair to call her a co-perp)

    1. she’s a woman
    2. she works in a job considered white collar & respectable.

    No one would ever think she would do something like this. Even less so if I actually gave details. And it’s much less likely to be raped by a woman than a man.

    theres no way you can tell, there’s no way you can tell, there’s no way you can tell.

    Hell, I didn’t know if *I* wasn’t to blame, since I started the night curious about sex.

    When she had kids, I freaked. I didn’t actually say anything, but I freaked. What could I do? No one would believe me. Worse, they might decide I was somehow raped into being queer, and I’d had a hard enough struggle untangling my own feelings on that score, there was no way I could competently (at that point) explain them to others.

    If I can’t trust my sister. If I can’t trust my sister with her kids (even though I think that she’s likely to be in the category of non-reoffending juveniles that commit one or a small number of sexual assaults at a formative sexual stage, soon after being assaulted, or both…though I don’t know that she was assaulted), If I can’t trust my sister with her husband (I’ve seen how she can dehumanize him & that with her history…)…

    then how the f* can I trust a random stranger?

    And yes, it’s also true that any given person (within reasonable age limits) is also my schroedinger’s life partner and schroedinger’s book club member, etc, etc, etc, and while yes the number of people I’ve met that haven’t raped me far outstrips the number that have, the point of SR is that there is a risk, there is a reason not to trust, and if you either a) object to the fact that I don’t give trust until it’s earned…or b) act in ways that boost the bayesian calculation that govern’s the subjective likelihood I may be raped by you, then you’re not giving some of the basic human courtesy that I deserve.

    ….
    well, that’s done & out there forever. May no one ever bring this up with my sister….

  103. says

    John:

    With my own wife! ‘Cos I felt entitled.
    ‘Cos I was a horny bastard.

    John, you’re hardly alone on this score, however, you did stop. That’s important. It took a great deal of courage for you to tell us that and I thank you. Because of your courage, there may be men reading who recognize such behaviour and attitudes in themselves and stop to think before they do something terrible.

  104. A. Noyd says

    psychoticatheist (#630)

    But it seems that most of the examples of sexism/misogyny (that I have seen at least) have been from obvious trolls. I think we’d do better to talk about the actual sexism and misogyny rather than the fake stuff that anonymous internet assholes make up with the sole intention of provoking a response.

    If I’m playing an MMO, I don’t care whether the guy who PMs me to ask if I’m hot and then calls me an ugly cunt for telling him to fuck off is sincere or is trolling me. Either way, he’s using my womanhood to disrespect me. Either way, his behavior contributes to the hostile climate that drives women and feminists* away from gaming. He may not “really” be as sexist as he comes off, but my experience is the same either way; it’s not “background noise”; I’m still getting backlash for being visibly female in a traditionally male space. Furthermore, he’s sexist enough to think it’s okay to “jokingly” sexually harass me and put me down on the basis of my womanhood.

    Same deal with the “obvious trolls” versus the “genuine sexists” in the atheist/skeptic communities; whether they believe what they’re saying or not, the trolls are still sexists, and the mere existence the brand of vitriol they share with the MRAs makes women and feminists feel unwelcome. When you say things like “I’m just suggesting that trolls are not entirely to be a trusted data source on the attitudes of skeptics,” what you’re also saying is, “I can’t trust women like Rebecca Watson to accurately represent what they’re dealing with.”

    The points you need to grasp are that 1) doing it for the lulz doesn’t make sexism not sexist, either in absolute terms or from the POV of its targets, and 2) it’s in our best interest to confront both the “obvious trolls” and the “genuine sexists” head on and with plenty of emotion. If that’s “mission accomplished” from the POV of the trolls, so be it. It can also show everyone else that the atheist/skeptic communities have zero tolerance for misogyny. The trolls can have their petty victories because it’s a net win for us.

    (#2-80)

    To be honest, I think people are thinking that I am saying something far more contentious than what I am actually saying.

    No. While I think a few people mistook what you’re saying, your points are genuinely contentious and/or are built on bad assumptions and/or are mired in solipsism.

    ………
    *Phrased this way because not all women are feminists and not all feminists are women.

  105. Pteryxx says

    What they said, John. That took guts, and humanity, both. *offers fistbump*

    [delayed while thinking]

    @CC, thanks. I don’t feel much of anything about it, because I’m still more concerned with parsing the rest of the abuse, I guess.

    [TMI]

    I started to figure out there was a problem with my abuser-partner hating sex when I wanted it, but demanding sex when I didn’t want it, particularly with specific practices (and the more it hurt me, the better). With the last couple years of reading on the subject… yeaaah, that definitely counts.

    (Seriously, I think it’s pretty strange to refuse enthusiastic, willing blowjobs but demand unwilling ones, in the same session. WTF?)

  106. A. Noyd says

    tielserrath (#763)

    An important link that you really, really should read: http://www.autismandempathy.com/

    Thanks for the link. I agree that it’s a myth that needs challenging, and while I never assumed people on the spectrum were not empathetic, I never explicitly rejected the idea they weren’t, either. Anyway, after reading a few pages of stories there, it seems very clear that EG being on the spectrum is the worst explanation for him doing what he did after attending a talk where RW explained her feelings in words.

  107. julian says

    Fuck. I came *this* close to that, it ain’t funny.

    Me too. With my then girlfriend now wife. Knowing her brother had actually gone through with it.

    I gotta go talk to her.

  108. says

    Crip Dyke, I’m so sorry for your experience. I know just how difficult being raped by a family member can be, especially when you’re a child. Mine started when I was 3 years old. I experienced my first orgasm during the course of being raped (same family member) when I was 9 years old. The only way for me to cope was to walk away from my family, which I did decades ago. It’s so fucking hard when it’s your family that’s criminal. I wish you all the best dealing with this situation and all the fallout.

    I’m reminded of Alison Arngrim’s book, Confessions of a Prairie Bitch, where she writes about being repeatedly raped by her brother. It was difficult for me to read, but in the end, affirming.

  109. chigau () says

    Crip Dyke
    I would like to say something comforting
    but
    I have nothing.
    chocolate?

  110. Aitapyh says

    You are a white individual in a high crime predominantly black neighborhood. You are walking alone, and see a young black male walking toward you (or possibly multiple). Is it reasonable to regard this individual as Schrodinger’s Mugger?

    Now I’m not here to say one or the other is the correct response (as a poker player I’m apt to side with the use of probabilistic decision making myself, but that’s just me) but I do think that saying that either Schrodinger’s Rapist or Schrodinger’s Mugger is valid, but not both, is hypocritical. They are essentially the same argument.

    Also, while it is true that in society whites have more privilege, in this particular scenario it does not factor, I think. Whites do not, in this scenario, have the privilege of being immune to getting mugged. And if we go along this line of thinking, I suppose fear for one’s safety against a potential threat should trump fear of being treated as a potential criminal?

    I guess we can also consider the situation of white people looking scared when a brown person boards an airplane along with them. Should the brown person be offended at the white people not immediately trusting him/her not to be a terrorist?

    I think the real problem here is that the SR post oversimplifies things. Most women do not spend every minute of their lives assessing risk of being in close proximity to any and all men. There’s a lot more that goes into consideration – body size, age, height, appearance and dress code, body language, and (unfortunately with most people) race – not simply gender. If two men holding hands enter an elevator, most women are not going to be fearful, though crudely applying the SR principle would suggest that they should. If I walk into an elevator holding another man’s hand and a woman in the elevator edges away looking fearful, I’m more likely to assume she’s a Michelle Bachmann and get offended.

  111. Pteryxx says

    Crip Dyke, *hugs* and/or *fistbumps* as you wish.

    Sheesh, until that post, I forgot all about being given a “lesson” in sex (and cussing) by a babysitter, complete with threats if I told. I only remember it being brief and annoying, though. Also, I knew more about anatomy than she did… so I kept correcting her. (I’m SUCH a geek.)

  112. says

    A. Noyd:

    Pharyngula is one of the few places I can come to kick back and feel completely included without having to smother aspects of my personality under social graces or conceal the fact of my gender.

    As someone who always looks forward to your posts, I’m very happy Pharyngula is a good place for you.

  113. says

    Aitapyh:

    I do think that saying that either Schrodinger’s Rapist or Schrodinger’s Mugger is valid, but not both, is hypocritical.

    No one said that. You might want to work on your reading comprehension.

    I think the real problem here is that the SR post oversimplifies things.

    No, it really doesn’t. It’s a clear cut illustration which still is not understood by many men.

    Most women do not spend every minute of their lives assessing risk of being in close proximity to any and all men.

    You might want to try speaking for yourself. Making assumptions on this subject isn’t going to get you anywhere.

  114. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Crip Dyke, I’m so sorry. If you need to talk to us, we’re here. :(

    pteryxx, yeah. I get that. Rape is most relevant to these discussions, so we focus on it in them, but long-term abuse is a whole complex mess of a thing. My rapes were traumatic and have noticeably harmed me, but the abuse – in my case, the psychological aspects were the worst – is what keeps me up at night, what paralyzes me suddenly during the most routine tasks, what makes me occasionally (not now, but during the really bad times) loathe myself and wish I had died. You know already, but I’ll say it anyway, for everyone’s benefit: the fact that people respond differently to rape doesn’t make it any less rape, and it doesn’t make them any less victims.

  115. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Most women do not spend every minute of their lives assessing risk of being in close proximity to any and all men.

    I do. And SR doesn’t require “every minute.” Now shut the fuck up and go away.

  116. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Re: this

    wish I had died

    I feel the need to make clear that this is in no way sensible, nor even a real wish. It’s one of those sick despairing things that crosses your mind and you look back on it later and think “gods, I was being such a dumbass.” Most of the time I’m very aware of that.

  117. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Thanks Caine, Chigau & Pteryxx –

    and, by the by, chocolate is among the best possible responses.

    Caine, I think I have an idea of what it might have been like to have had your first orgasm in that context. Awful.

    I brought it up once w/ my sister when we were in our early 20s. She accused me of making things up AND lying (wtf?). She was really pissed, but it was hard to know if she had really forgotten that she had done that or somehow rationalized it as *not rape* and thus was honestly (though unjustly) outraged…or if she remembered what she had done and was honestly panicked at being found out as a rapist.

    Either way, she refused to discuss it & it has never been mentioned again. My mother certainly doesn’t know. Nor my dad or step-dad. It’s something that would just make the family …come unglued, I guess. And being the queer and the unabashed lefty, they would certainly think I was crazy or fabricating things “for an agenda” before they would begin to entertain that I was telling the truth.

    Even if everyone made a conscious decision that it was an event that must not be named, it would be so much easier if everyone already knew.

    In the meantime, that’s part of my story that I don’t use in my activism. The anonymity of the internet does have its uses.
    ………….

    as for those -john & julian- who are confessing quite opposite things… Thank you for being honest with yourselves and open with us. This is part of how we change the notion of rapists from thoroughly inhuman demons to humans ranging from fallible and oblivious to aggressively hostile, contemptuous of others, & sadistic. And changing the idea of people who did commit or might very well have committed rape is part of how we make it so that it doesn’t seem to outlandish to believe when someone steps forward to say, “I was raped.”

    And, by the by, thank you for changing so that you aren’t the people you once were.

    Hnh. I thought I was in this for a couple more hours, but MRAronen seems to have wandered off & I could use an emotional break, so I’m retiring …either for the night or at least til a movie & popcorn are polished off.

    Again, thanks to all who made positive contributions to the thread.

  118. Amphigorey says

    Aitapyh – No, sorry, try again. You have inverted the power balance, which makes it not the same argument at all.

    I’m white. You can’t tell that I’m not racist by looking at me; I might be a teabagger. You don’t know. Any random person of color doesn’t know. You know how I let people know? By not doing or saying racist shit. However, until I open my mouth and show that I try not to harbor racism, I don’t blame any random person of color for being wary that I, as a white person, might do or say something dumb.

    It’s not Schrodinger’s Mugger, it’s Schrodinger’s Racist.

  119. julian says

    No answer from wife. Probably still sleeping.

    Is it reasonable to regard this individual as Schrodinger’s Mugger?

    I think it is but I might be biased. I grew up in a mostly Dominican and Puertorican neighborhood with a very high crime rate, was jumped several times and had my apartment broken into twice. If I see anyone coming up to me late at night in anything but a business suit I get nervous.

    For me the fact that muggings are common in this neighborhood is reason enough for anyone to be on their guard. Mind you macing someone when all their doing is walking in your direction is a bit over the top. But if a group is walking up to you in a place where muggings and gang violence (adding that to your scenario) are common place, yeah I’m not gonna blame you for being nervous and maybe clutching some makeshift weapon you have in your pocket (I usually carry a knife). Personally I’d find a reason to cross the street and see if they follow.

  120. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Fuck, I’m gonna say something about the mugger b4 I go…I know, I know, I’m not sticking the …well, not “flounce” but you know what I mean.

    anyway,

    YES – you can’t know if that person is a mugger, so that person is schroedinger’s mugger. However, the analogy is not comparable, since the power balance is not the same. Keeping the (stereotype warning) greedy, lazy, violent, shiftless black men from taking the valuables of the upstanding, white, members of the community has long been a *focus* of law enforcement. In fact, a disproportionate focus. This is exactly the story that the system is set up to believe. Thus, one might fear being a victim, but one doesn’t need fearing being a powerless victim with no recourses and no reasonable hope of justice after the fact. Rapists are not the classic villain the system is set up to catch. Rape victims are not the classic victim the system is set up to believe.

    The scenarios are the same in that you cannot tell a mugger by looking at them, but they are very different in the details of power and the hope for regaining a just balance after the fact.

    If it matters to you, read my post earlier where I said that people are also Schroedinger’s (Insert lots of things here). You can’t tell if some new person will be your next dating partner, your next financial adviser, your next peanut-butter&jelly-sandwich maker.

    All those things are true, but none of them are related to the question of how fear and mistrust poison interactions between people when one of them does something that shifts the bayesian calculation toward a greater risk of violence, much less the specifically gendered dynamic when that person is a man and the behavior shifts a woman’s calculation of risk of rape.

    So your hypothetical scenario tells us that you’re just beginning to grasp the idea that you might not be able to judge a book by its cover, but the details of that story tell me that you still don’t understand racism, sexism, or social power and oppression.

    I’m going away, so you can leave or not as you like. I leave it in the capable hands of others to tell you to f* off for being a racist if you continue, forewarned, down the path you’re taking.

  121. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    SallyStrange, I’ve dithered a bit about asking this, and I really hope it doesn’t come off as inappropriately prying. So obviously, you know, if this is a bad question don’t feel obligated to answer it. But – were the letters a good thing, do you think? Did they make you feel better, in any way? I ask because I’ve had really conflicted reactions to similar contact – not about the rapes, but about other wrongs. I feel both like they’re trying to make themselves feel better at the cost of invading my life, and like they’re genuinely sorry and they ought to be and that’s a good thing. I’m just wondering how other people handle that.

  122. says

    It’s not Schrodinger’s Mugger, it’s Schrodinger’s Racist.

    And moreover, Schrodinger’s Racist in a small Southern town in the 1950s, to compensate for the statistics of women who have been sexually assaulted in their lifetimes (i.e. women have either been raped themselves and/or are close family members or friends of likely several other women who have been), as well as the treatment by authorites/justice system if you report an assault. Etc.

    Then, on top of that, consider the physical power differential. So maybe in this hypothetical town, all the white guys always walk around with knives and guns, and all the black people are unarmed.

    Are you getting it yet, Aitapyh?

  123. Aitapyh says

    @ Amphigorey
    Hmm… I’m familiar with all 3 of the Shroedinger’s Rapist/Racist/Mugger scenarios… and obviously I agree that people should behave in a suspicion-avoiding manner when approaching others and take issues of privilege into consideration, however, I don’t see how the reasoning, as followed by the Shroedinger’s Racist/Rapist scenarios do not apply to the Shroedinger’s Mugger scenario. That is, if the reasoning for Rapist/Racist scenarios are valid, then why isn’t the reasoning for the Mugger scenario invalid? So I’m thinking that while the outcome of the SR scenario is correct, the particular way it is being argued is wrong.

    @ julian :
    I think you’re over-interpreting the analogy here. Simply, it’s about racial profiling by a person (usually white) against another (usually black).

  124. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Aitapyh,
    Shut the fuck up and go away. What part of this didn’t you get the first time?

  125. says

    Aitapyh, you know what, Cupcake? This thread is not about you, nor is it about racism, nor is it about mugging, nor is it about twisting Shroedinger’s Rapist all around so you can derail this thread, which happens to be about rampant, toxic sexism.

    Either figure out how to say something on topic* or shut up.

    *And work on it being considerably better than your first effort, which was both wrong and dismissive of women. You might try reading the whole thread first, which includes the first page of comments.

  126. Sally Strange, OM says

    SallyStrange, I’ve dithered a bit about asking this, and I really hope it doesn’t come off as inappropriately prying. So obviously, you know, if this is a bad question don’t feel obligated to answer it. But – were the letters a good thing, do you think? Did they make you feel better, in any way? I ask because I’ve had really conflicted reactions to similar contact – not about the rapes, but about other wrongs. I feel both like they’re trying to make themselves feel better at the cost of invading my life, and like they’re genuinely sorry and they ought to be and that’s a good thing. I’m just wondering how other people handle that.

    No, it really didn’t. Because he wasn’t really in touch with the reality of my situation. The reality of the situation didn’t merit him chopping his dick off. He’s not the worst guy ever, just really self-centered and egotistical and too smart for his own good. But SENSITIVE! Oh so sensitive. I spent so much time soothing him and his wounded feelings and his wounded self.

    Anyway, the letters just seemed really self-serving to me, a performance–I just remember rolling my eyes. So melodramatic.

    —————–shifting gears—————

    That is, if the reasoning for Rapist/Racist scenarios are valid, then why isn’t the reasoning for the Mugger scenario invalid? So I’m thinking that while the outcome of the SR scenario is correct, the particular way it is being argued is wrong.

    No, you misunderstand. The reasoning for the Mugger scenario IS valid. But you’re applying the power dynamics improperly. People are trying to tell you that when you don’t have police protection, your calculation of risks changes dramatically. And if you’ve been assaulted, it also changes. That may not be entirely rational, but it’s human. You could also say that those who have not been assaulted are so relatively rare in this society, and in most societies in the world, that they are the ones who are being irrational by not taking the risk seriously all the time, every day.

    Power dynamics. Sounds all science-y and sociologimacal, doesn’t it? It’s a real thing, with measurable effects.

    Rape is this one subset of crime that men commit against women and get away with it. That set of crimes used to be a lot longer. Physical assault. Stealing. False imprisonment. Compare to your scenario. Your hypothetical white guy is quite rational to take precautions, cross the street or slow down or avoid as needed, upon seeing a group of young black men across the street. Might be some racial animosity there. But your white guy knows that if he gets beat up and isn’t murdered, at least the cops have his back, will arrest these guys and try them at least, and so on. Black guy in a white neighborhood? “Oh officer we found this man attempting to accost a white lady!” The law does not have his back.

    Well, I found this interesting. I hope y’all did. Peace.

  127. amphiox says

    That man was taking precautions on behalf of his young children. Was he acting unreasonably? No. Was he wrong? No. He was simply taking what he felt to be the safe course of action. Shroedinger’s Pedophile in action.

    And was your husband upset? Offended? Did he go crash the next parenting blog thread and whine about it ad nauseum? Did he send death and kidnapping threats to the next parent who spoke about it at a parenting convention? Did he start up his own blog thread and invite all the raving, angry, self-righteous pedophile’s rights activists to spew hate all over it for 5000 comments over three threads?

    Were you upset, offended, or angry on his behalf?

    I recall you told us that he didn’t mind at all. And decent people don’t. Human beings worthy of the first appellation understand.

    I do not mind if a stranger takes me for a Schrodinger’s Rapist, or Racist, or Mugger. I might be upset if the continue to do so after we have already interacted and I have made my best effort to demonstrate that I am not, though in that case I will examine my efforts at so demonstrating to see if truly, I did do everything reasonable to do so, or try to see if some form of unrecognized privilege had prevented this.

    Schrodinger’s Rapist is one of my litmus tests for judging the nature of people on-line by their words. Those who recognize it and accept it (when it is explained to them if they were not previously familiar with it) are people whose opinions are worth considering, people worth respecting.

    Those who don’t, aren’t.

  128. says

    Just caught this:

    Amphiox:

    And was your husband upset? Offended? Did he go crash the next parenting blog thread and whine about it ad nauseum? Did he send death and kidnapping threats to the next parent who spoke about it at a parenting convention? Did he start up his own blog thread and invite all the raving, angry, self-righteous pedophile’s rights activists to spew hate all over it for 5000 comments over three threads?

    No to all of the above.

    Were you upset, offended, or angry on his behalf?

    Nope.

    I recall you told us that he didn’t mind at all. And decent people don’t. Human beings worthy of the first appellation understand.

    No, he didn’t mind at all. He understood completely. The only reason he even told me about it was because we were discussing Egate.

  129. Aitapyh says

    @Caine, Fleur du Mal/Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM:
    Look, I don’t see why I need to deal with people who throw unnecessary vileness at me, so I’m going to just ignore you – why don’t you do the same with me?

    I’ll say this just for once regarding Elevatorgate – anyone with a modicum of social awareness knows that hitting on a woman in an elevator is pure idiocy. I’m not interested in convincing anyone of that, that should have happened when you reached 12. I’m simply interested in verifying the abstract argument in the SR scenario by applying it to potential other cases. For people who don’t wanna do that, just ignore my post and move along, just like I’m doing with all the posts that I’m not interested in. This thread is nobody’s personal property.

    I also managed to find a thread on a citizen radio forum dealing with the same issue: http://citizenradio.freeforums.org/is-schrodinger-s-rapist-an-acceptable-feminist-argument-t2994.html

  130. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    People are trying to tell you that when you don’t have police protection, your calculation of risks changes dramatically. And if you’ve been assaulted, it also changes.

    To this, I would add also the role that socialization plays in this. Women are taught throughout our lives in various ways that we are responsible for protecting ourselves from rape. If we are raped, we are taught that we have failed in some way. The lack of police protection backs this up – our own personal risk assessment is the only thing we can rely on here. And sickeningly, the reality of the situation is that we cannot actually protect ourselves, not totally, not enough, but we do what we can anyway. It’s not fair and it’s not right that this is the message we’re getting shoved at us at every turn, but no one bases their risk assessments on what’s fair.

  131. Pteryxx says

    Now I’m not here to say one or the other is the correct response (as a poker player I’m apt to side with the use of probabilistic decision making myself, but that’s just me) but I do think that saying that either Schrodinger’s Rapist or Schrodinger’s Mugger is valid, but not both, is hypocritical. They are essentially the same argument.

    Poker? LAWL. it’s 3 AM and I can’t resist.

    If you’re a halfway decent poker player, then first off you’d rely on ACCURATE probabilities, and not just whether you like hearts more than diamonds or hate the number 3. Those 1-in-6 rape stats are accurate at minimum, and predatory behaviors such as aggressive flirting, groping, and harassment are more common still. Women often get harassed on a daily basis. There ain’t THAT much mugging to go around.

    Second, you would also adjust your responses based on the situation, including the play styles and tells of the other players. If you can tell that a happy player’s more of a threat than a nervous one, you should be able to figure out that a stranger giving you the eye or sidling up to you in an isolated area is more of a threat than someone of any color just going about their business.

    Third, you’d adjust your responses based on your risk versus reward. You wouldn’t play a lot of poker if your opponent got to decide how much of your stake you could bet and you “winning” meant only that you broke even. But that’s the risk imposed on a woman when a man approaches her – she’s at risk of harassment, assault, or rape, depending on the intentions of the man, but the best-case scenario is just that she goes about her business. Risk without reward. Conversely, predatory men can expect to get away with everything up to and including rape. Even if a victim reports the rape and provides evidence, odds are he won’t be convicted, while the woman generally gets re-traumatized and slandered. Muggings, especially by minorities, get taken a lot more seriously.

    Why should women be expected to engage with men who control the stakes and hold all the cards?

    The point of Schroedinger’s Rapist is very simple. If you’re a decent guy, prove it by letting the woman tap out. (Or like the song says, know when to walk away.)

  132. julian says

    I think you’re over-interpreting the analogy here. Simply, it’s about racial profiling by a person (usually white) against another (usually black).

    But there’s no (or at least what I’d call) racial profiling in your example. It was basically there is a lot of crime here, you’re walking down the street, someone is walking up to you, you get nervous. Roles reversed it’s the exact same thing, even if you’re white and the other young man isn’t.

    Now if a police officer came by and stopped that black man that’d be closer to what I call racial profiling. Not because he’s an authority figure but because he sees two people walking towards each other and assumes the black one is going to commit a crime when neither young men’s behavior suggests criminal activity.

    Am I off?

  133. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Look, I don’t see why I need to deal with people who throw unnecessary vileness at me, so I’m going to just ignore you – why don’t you do the same with me?

    Because you’re a sickening fucker who showed up to compare women to racists on the grounds that both are, in some way, assessing risk. You ought to be seriously fucking ashamed of yourself.

  134. says

    That is, if the reasoning for Rapist/Racist scenarios are valid, then why isn’t the reasoning for the Mugger scenario invalid? So I’m thinking that while the outcome of the SR scenario is correct, the particular way it is being argued is wrong.

    I don’t understand the question. What exactly is tripping you up?

    Maybe the problem is you’re equating a stereotype with actual evidence and experience. Let’s compare, shall we?

    1. Most women have been molested, sexually assaulted, threatened with sexual assault, or raped OR have close family members or friends who have been.

    Most people have never been mugged.

    2. Most perpetrators of rape (by a high, high percentage) are men.

    Yes, most muggers are of disadvantaged backgrounds, often ethnic minorities–but this percentage is not nearly as high. And though minorities might predominate among muggers, there are plenty of majority ethnicity muggers too.

    3. A far, far higher percentage of men are rapists than black people are muggers.

    4. The only geographical location that is an indication of a potential rapist is proximity to you.

    Muggers are typically located in “high crime” areas.

    4. There are virtually no other external cues to indicate whether someone is a rapist.

    There are plenty of cues other than skin colour (and more reliable ones to tell if someone could be a mugger (clothing, carriage, stalking behaviour, indications of drug use).

    For all of these reasons (and probably many others I can’t think of), the two situations are not remotely equivalent even as far as the reasoning is concerned. To treat a black man as Schrodinger’s Mugger implies that all the things that *do* apply to the case of Schrodinger’s Rapist apply to him (i.e. most people have been victims of a black mugger, most muggers are black, a good percentage of black people are muggers, even black men in good clothes and non-high crime neighbourhoods have a good chance of being muggers). Since none of these things are true (except in certain locations, point two), to act like they are, is *racism*.

  135. A. Noyd says

    Caine (#2-321)

    As someone who always looks forward to your posts, I’m very happy Pharyngula is a good place for you.

    Aww, shucks. Well, I’m grateful that there are the far-more-regular regulars like you who do the hard work of keeping Pharyngula that sort of place!

  136. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Is it me, or has this thread been truncated?

    Right under my comment, to the left, you should see the words “Older Comments.” There’s a second page.

  137. Gnumann says

    Psychotic:
    I’m not suggesting complete blanket ignoring of trolls, I am suggesting ignoring trolls as part of a data set when trying to understand the attitudes within the skeptic movement. If women are put off by anonymous internet assholes, this is not something the skeptic movement can really do much about. We can’t reason with trolls.

    I haven’t read all the nights posts, so I can’t tell if this has been adressed (sorry for bungling if I do)

    I just suddenly understand where you are coming from, and decided to hit you over the head from hopefully a more productive direction.

    It seems to me that you think we are trying to establish the prevalence of sexism in Atheist/skeptic circles.

    We’re not.

    It might be interesting, but we haven’t the resources to do so.

    Futhermore, while it might be interesting it isn’t important.
    You know why? Because even a smidgeon of sexism is too fucking much.

    And while some might be trolling in your view, you seem to recognise that some are not.

    So why don’t you either lend a hand in purging the sexism that’s clearly there, or shut the fuck up. At the moment you are just a whiny distraction to people who are trying to make a difference. Don’t be – ok?

  138. Gnumann says

    bah, fucked up blockquote. First part is (hopefully) recognisable as “not me” but a quote from psycoticatheist

  139. Gnumann says

    [meta/OT]

    ODDLY ENOUGH THIS ONLY CATCHES ATTENTION WHEN THE POTENTIAL PERPETRATOR BELONGS TO CERTAIN GENDER. ONE MIGHT EVEN CONCLUDE THAT THERE’S SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON HERE.

    Why is it that pathetic losers feel the need to write in all-caps when they are losing the discussion (and their wits). Are they incapable of seeing that all-caps labels them as losers?

  140. Gnumann says

    [more meta]

    Yikes! Three times in a row by myself (now quite possibly four) – scoring some PL-points myself I see.

  141. says

    Reading up here was hard. It was hard, but it was good.
    It makes me realize that so far in my life, I’ve been lucky.
    Nothing more, nothing less.
    To all of you (you know who’s included in this you), you’re great, and you’re brave.
    Yeah, nothing to add that wouldn’t sound shallow, so I stop here.

  142. pensnest says

    psychoticatheist at (new) #80
    You seem to be enormously invested in the idea that the skeptic community is troll-free. Just an observation.
    Here’s where I really disagree, though. You say “we shouldn’t get outraged, appalled or upset about these things.” I think we absolutely should, all of us. Frankly, any decent person should be outraged, appalled and upset about (for example) the shit Rebecca Watson is having to endure. What other response is reasonable? And your response seems to be, basically, Oh, those things don’t count—and I cannot understand how a decent human being could respond that way.

    Daz at (new) #81
    Nice analogy. In fact, the more I read it, the better it gets.

    Friendly (new) #162
    Awesome!

    msironen (new) #225
    But that’s the general line of reasoning here, with the rather tragic fallacy that since 1/n women are raped, 1/n men are rapists.
    And I could have sworn I read somewhere upthread a cogent comment pointing out that a lot of rapists rape more than once, and that there is not, therefore, a 1:1 match of rape victim:rapist. Possibly you missed it. You do seem to be determined not to understand this stuff.

    Classical Cipher, #304
    I think there are a lot of men around who would reject the label of ‘rapist’ even though they have in fact raped someone—quite likely a wife or girlfriend. That survey cited upthread—I’m sure I’ve read that the word ‘rape’ is not mentioned in the questions; when men are asked if they’ve had sex with someone unwilling/unconscious (etc), they’re willing to say yes, whereas they wouldn’t say yes if they were asked outright if they had committed rape. Rape is a Bad Thing, a thing that Other People do. They’re just regular guys, you know? Sigh.

  143. Gnumann says

    pensnest:

    A lot of very true things in your post, but I would like to draw extra attention to:

    I think there are a lot of men around who would reject the label of ‘rapist’ even though they have in fact raped someone—quite likely a wife or girlfriend

    as it’s very true and can’t be said to often.

  144. says

    Oh, something else:

    Here:

    Rebecca Watson has my support as an appreciated and valuable member of the skeptical community, who has made many contributions and has also been an entertaining and informative face for skepticism.

    I whole-heartedly endorse this.

    Well, even if I thought that RW was boring as a shopping-TV-channel and about as skeptical and that her contributions were -10, she still would have my full support against the bile and the hate and the threats.

  145. Esteleth says

    `allo everyone. I see we’re still going strong over here.

    Pensnest,
    A lot of guys seriously struggle with the idea that they may be a rapist. I’ve seen this in my own life.

    *trigger warning*

    When I was a wee lass, my parents called me and my siblings together for a family meeting. They explained that they were cutting off all contact with another branch of the family, as a member of that branch had been proven to be a pedophile (against his young daughters), but the rest of that branch of the family covered it up and refused to acknowledge it.

    Afterwards, I was leery for a few weeks around my own father. Now, he’s never given me any hint that he is a pedophile, someone whose interested in incest, or a rapist. But, my young mind had a thought process that went something like this:

    [Family Member] was hurt by her own daddy in a very bad way!
    I have a daddy!
    Does my daddy want to hurt me too?
    I don’t want to give daddy a hug! He might hurt me!

    Fortunately, I was able to move past this. But not before my father noticed. And it hurt him, I know it did. Not long ago, he and I were talking and he mentioned that it was at that moment – when his own children shrank from him after learning of the existence of incest-pedophiles – that he got it. He had a moment of introspection where he thought about all his behavior up to that point. He – rightly – found nothing to convict himself, but there was the time that he had to say to himself, “I have nothing to tell my children to make them feel better in this situation, because I could do that to them.”

    The thing is? A different man, faced with the exact same situation, could have reacted with anger, lashed out or allowed it to permanently damage his relationships with his children.

    Because realizing that you are capable of hurting those that you love is hard realization. And some don’t want to carry that knowledge.

  146. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    pensnest #354

    re: msironen “You do seem to be determined not to understand this stuff.”

    That’s what I find most frustrating about msironen and others like him. They go out of their way to misconstrue what’s being said to them. SR has been explained how many times and in how many ways over the past several months yet msironen and his buddies make all sorts of unjustified and unjustifiable conclusions from it. “You women think all men are rapists.” “We can’t even walk down the same side of the street as a woman without being accused of sexual assault.” “I AM NOT A RAPIST!!1!one!”

    msironen and that ilk are arguing with the feminists in their heads. They’re not interacting with the people on this website other than to use our comments as a springboard to launch their fantasies. Watson makes an innocuous comment, “guys, that’s not cool”, and she becomes the castrating man-hater from hell.

    Logical reasoning doesn’t effect msironen et al’s ideas. Nor do gentle argument, passionate argument or even insults. They just don’t get it and they don’t want to get it. They are as pure as the driven snow in their privileged minds and mere facts are not going to persuade them otherwise. Besides, bitches ain’t shit.

  147. says

    ‘Tis #358:

    Logical reasoning doesn’t effect msironen et al’s ideas. Nor do gentle argument, passionate argument or even insults. They just don’t get it and they don’t want to get it. They are as pure as the driven snow in their privileged minds and mere facts are not going to persuade them otherwise.

    Does that make them neoliberal political ‘scientists’, or merely freshwater economists?

  148. Hurin, Nattering Nabob of Negativism says

    msironen

    UNTIL SUCH PROOF, I’M GOING TO CALL YOU A (potential) MASSMURDERER, PEDOPHILE AND A WHORE. AND THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO DENIGRATE YOU, MIND YOU.

    The magnitude of your stupidity amazes me. Do you realize that reductio ad absurdem is supposed to follow the same logic as the original argument? This is a common straw man, and you are a fucking idiot.

    As for mass murder, Schrodinger’s mass murderer could probably be a valid concept except that mass murder is quite rare. Still, if you behave in a manner that tells people you might be on the way to a mass murder (like Mabus with his internet stalking behavior of gradually increasing violence) then people are going to regard you as a potential threat.

    I think you are letting the fact that you see this as some kind of prejudice issue is getting in the way of the facts that:

    a)SR only puts the onus on you to try to be considerate of others.

    b) You are not morally judged for what you have the potential to be, only what you are.

  149. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    Does that make them neoliberal political ‘scientists’, or merely freshwater economists?

    The answer is “c. All of the above”.

  150. kerfluffle says

    msironen: I actually have a 100% efficient method of reducing the amount of rapes by me. My trick is to not commit then.

    Philip Legge says:
    And exactly how, is everyone you meet in the real world supposed to know this? What behaviours do you perform to put people at ease? What actions do you refrain from to avoid creeping others out?

    I know this hard for you, but please try to put some thought into your answers.

    Respectfully, msironen never said that zhe did not creep people out. Zhe only says that zhe does not rape them. This is all that is important.

    Egate comments often included “Well he didn’t rape her! What’s the big deal!” I’d put money on msironen defending the right to creep people out. Although it would probably be phrased as hitting on them, free speech or some other bullshit.

  151. amphiox says

    UNTIL SUCH PROOF, I’M GOING TO CALL YOU A (potential) MASSMURDERER, PEDOPHILE AND A WHORE. AND THIS IS IN NO WAY MEANT TO DENIGRATE YOU, MIND YOU.

    Mass murderer: Go right ahead. I don’t mind at all. Given the relative frequency of mass murderers in the population compared to rapists, though, I will take a moment to advise you to get professional help for your paranoia, for you are embarking a long, dark, and lonely road, with no happy destination.

    Pedophile: No. Use Child abuser instead. There are plenty of pedophiles out there who only fantasize and never act, never harming any children, ever. These people are not a problem. They have a mental condition for which they need help, and deserve sympathy. Justifiable precautionary attitudes should be appropriately targeted. Otherwise, if you are a parent or a child, go right ahead. I don’t mind.

    If you are not a parent or a child, then have this porcupine, compliments on the house.

    Whore: No. There is never, ever an appropriate time to call anyone a whore, with or without modification with a dead white physicist. And, appropriate or no, whores do not inflict bodily harm in the act of whoring, and thus are never a justifable target for Schrodinger’s anything.

    Finally, a bit of advice from someone who likes the judicious use of ALL CAPS for rhetorical effects: U R DOING IT WRONG.

  152. says

    I would like to thank msironen and others of similar bent for providing some real meat to this discussion. If all we had here were people who more or less shared the same point of view, that POV could be dismissed as just an echo chamber. But when guys like msironen come along, and try to push back, and always the sheer rage inside of them starts boiling and splattering all over the thread like some ragey splattery thing, it really helps make visible the depth and pervasiveness of misogyny.

    How long did it take? Two days or so, and dozens of posts, before the seething anger he holds against women was finally displayed? I mean, it was clear from the getgo that he was a misogynist, but the bile he was spewing by the time he signed off was doubleplus.
    Sometimes I think “misogyny” is too nice a word.

  153. Naked Bunny with a Whip says

    I am suggesting ignoring trolls

    There was a Republican presidential debate recently where an openly gay soldier was booed by some of those in the audience. Afterward, GOP apologists essentially called those people unrepresentative trolls, but others pointed out that the candidates all chose to ignore the outburst. Refusing to take a stand against the unsavory elements in your midst is the fastest way to be stained by them.

  154. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    amphiox #374

    And, appropriate or no, whores do not inflict bodily harm in the act of whoring

    Unless, of course, that’s what the customer is paying for.

  155. 'Tis Himself, OM says

    I’ll play your silly game, why did you read “Rebecca Watson” as “Rebecca Black”?

  156. Candra Rain says

    When even the best men we personally know can ignore our “no” – even if it is just with persistence – it’s not possible to have faith in a stranger.

  157. scriabin says

    What these fucking MRAs (etc) don’t seem to understand is the damage their attitude causes.

    It’s not “just” the rape (or the fear thereof) – it’s also all the other things that contribute to shattering of a female’s self-esteem (from the body-image issues, the professional/domestic dichotomy, the impossibility of succeeding on *any* level, etc).

    None of them seem to have a fucking clue about the cumulative emotional burden. I’d like to see a single one of them succeed in anything when carrying that sort of weight.

    And, just for kicks, throw in the “succeed or fail” guilt of being a mom. Dads don’t get it.

    When your smackdown of these idiots includes the phrase “shut up – the adults are talking”, I really think you’re on to something. And if these jackasses are actually husbands or fathers, it’s time to talk about abusers and negligent parents.

  158. says

    scriabin:

    I’d like to see a single one of them succeed in anything when carrying that sort of weight.

    But, but, but you don’t understand! They have the most awful and terrible burden of walking this planet with a penis!

  159. Gregory Greenwood says

    So, msironen graduated all the way to the really advanced level of crazy where he stopped actually reading any of the posts here, and instead started his own ALL CAPS screaming match with some imaginary feminist who was accusing all men of being rapists?

    It would be nice if he actually bothered reading the arguments put foward before he spouts off, but it seems that he has his own figurative demons to deal with.

  160. scriabin says

    Caine (@373),

    I do. I have one, too. And I’m not thinking about it when I hold my wife and she cries herself to sleep, hoping that our children don’t have to face what she faces every day.

  161. scriabin says

    Caine – sorry, I knew you were being sarcastic. I used your sarcasm to build to try to make a further point. I’m just profoundly appalled that MRAs don’t understand the ramifications of what they do. The damage is shocking and far-reaching. This sort of shit is toxic. How could they wish it on anybody they know and care for? Sisters, mothers, wives, daughters, friends…

  162. says

    Scriabin:

    How could they wish it on anybody they know and care for? Sisters, mothers, wives, daughters, friends…

    They don’t see it that way. They don’t see themselves as bad guys, they don’t see what’s awful at all about their attitudes a/o actions. They also don’t see why all of us hysterical bitches have been screaming at them – that’s the thing, you see, they think the problem is with all of us hysterical bitches and normal women don’t have a problem with them.

  163. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    MRA: I beat my wife every night, call her a b*, and leave her with all the childrearing – and she never complains! That means you feminazis *must* be crazy cuz you’re goin off on how evil I am & I haven’t even punched you a little bit, much less used actual *excessive* force!

  164. says

    Crip Dyke:

    MRA: I beat my wife every night,

    While way too much of that goes on (to say the very least), I think when it comes to a lot of the people we’ve been arguing with for ages, it’s much for subtle. (I’m sure you know that already, I’m just carrying on and making a point just in case someone’s reading.)

    We’ve had a bunch of the honestly clueless, we’ve had a bunch of the Nice Guys™ and we’ve had a bunch of the “huh, never thought about it” men here. Those people have been, for the most part, easier to reach, but not always.

    Then you have the seriously stubborn MRAs, many of whom are nursing a serious grievance something like child-support or visitation* and have fallen full-tilt into the whole mens’ rights movement. Some of them aren’t involved so much in the movement, but use it to say that yes, men are being oppressed by women. Others honestly think that women have it easier and better in life, that they always use men, get their golden ticket (so to speak) and float through life getting whatever they want. Others aren’t so lucky with women and are convinced that all women are playing a huge game, scamming men all the way. And on it goes. Unfortunately, to hear all the different reasonings, you have to delve into their spaces and I really don’t advise that, it can leave you sickened and despairing.

    After all that, you have the PUAs, who look on women as prey, who work to be the alpha male, the one who has the most notches on his bedpost. These people are flat out despicable, just no way around it.

    All through every thread on sexism, all through Egate, one theme has been common: “Ah, what’s wrong with X, I don’t see a problem”** “Ah, what’s wrong with what Eguy did? He was interested in her? Men aren’t allowed to express interest now? How are you supposed to approach someone you’re attracted to, huh?” Despite hundreds of people, men and women, saying “the way is to treat a woman like a person“, then detailing this, explaining at length, we got the same exact questions again.

    Bottom line, even if there is never a single instance of physical violence from these men, never a single instance of verbal abuse from these men and so on, they still don’t view women as full human beings and because of that, the harm and sexism continue.

    I’ve also observed that for a whole lot of men, it comes down to unexamined privilege and for some reason, the concept of privilege makes many of them absolutely furious. It doesn’t matter when you explain that we all have privilege and that examining and acknowledging yours makes us better human beings.

    *Yes, I know there are serious problems when it comes to child support and child visitation. I do support reform in both these areas. The flaws in the system, however, do not justify hating women.

    **These threads are a good example: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/boys_will_berevolting_misogyni.php

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/too_true_1.php

  165. says

    “If you had a 1:6 chance of being raped by a member of a particular gender, what kind of measures would you take to avoid it happening, or to at least increase the odds?”

    = accusing me of rolling a d6 dice everytime I pass some by and attempting to rape them on a 6.

    This spew from msironen is, I think, very revealing. msironen is 100% incapable of putting himself in another person’s shoes, even as a thought experiment. He has less theory of mind than your average neurotypical 5 year old.

  166. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Actually, Caine, I’m with you. I was responding to when you said?

    “that’s the thing, you see, they think the problem is with all of us hysterical bitches and normal women don’t have a problem with them.”

    and originally meant to put a question mark at the end (in my enthusiasm for hyperbole, I used an exclamation point & never notice).

    The point was – I’m sexist with the women in my life & don’t get pushback from a great many, therefore the ones from which I do get pushback are the “hysterical b*s” of your example.

    While acting out sexism in daily life doesn’t need to and typically won’t include physical violence, violence and threats of physical violence are far more common than recognized. I worked 8 years in a shelter & was the longest-lasting person in direct service that they’d had for quite some time (other employees that stayed moved out of the emergency shelter into transitional housing programs where they weren’t dealing with safety planning but employment planning & apartment hunting OR they no longer did direct service at all – they took a management position, etc).

    In fact, we had John & Julian here realize how harmful some of their own actions had been, and they are on our side, they are the people we’d call the “good guys”.

    And although they don’t mean to, when they act in sexist ways, when they act in ways that make them seem more dangerous in our bayesian safety calcs, that makes it *less* likely that we will push back against them even though they deserve it more.

    So all this is the reasonable data to be used in formulating a hypothesis about mechanism for what you proposed.

    But, of course you’re right than many folk we’re calling MRA people or trolls or whatever fall into several categories.

    And I both agreed & disagreed w/ your original statement …which is why I wanted to post what I posted with a question mark.

    Originally I also thought about saying something like, “Is this what you intended to say” but I didn’t. I hit submit kind of without thinking because that crap is so toxic that (at least this is my hypothesis) I was focusing on dumping it out of my mind & when it was out, I felt relieved to be “done” and acted as “done” even though the *comment* wasn’t done, only the unpleasant part of writing it, the hypothetical MRA voice.

    But it ended up not mattering that I lost my train of thought in the yuck of trying to think like the people who are the worst of the problem here. You reacted & clarified your thinking quite a bit.

    So, you’re right that my post was flawed, but actually it ended up doing what I had wanted it to when I first conceived of it by fleshing out what you meant by your comment above & to whom you were intending it to apply.

    So, sorry for my problematic lack of clarity.

    & thanks for your intelligent post. even if I think that I – even if I think that we both failed in making important posts clear the first time through, we got there.

    Can I say, by the by, that it takes so much time & effort to stay in here for the long haul & keep on responding & clarifying and picking apart bad speech (as a technical judgement, b/c of clarity like mine, or as a value judgement, like I would apply to a number of msironen’s writings). Threads that are actually useful on topics like this wouldn’t be possible without the people who are intelligent, informed, & committed, all 3. Thank you for sticking it out to help make this thread a valuable space and not a garbage dump.

  167. says

    Crip Dyke:

    Thank you for sticking it out to help make this thread a valuable space and not a garbage dump.

    Right back at ya. The thing about sexism threads, at least anymore, is that we all get so damn tired at having to repeat ourselves an unbelievable amount of times, then we all tend to shorthand when discussing things with other regulars, because we know each others’ views. That crossed my mind, so I decided to go for a long clarification. I try to keep in mind that many people read these threads and never post a word.

    Even so, constantly having to repeat yourself and constantly clarify (for the lurkers and the hard of thinking) does get damned annoying. With that, I’m headed for sleep, I need an early night.

  168. Ichthyic says

    The thing about sexism threads, at least anymore, is that we all get so damn tired at having to repeat ourselves an unbelievable amount of times, then we all tend to shorthand when discussing things with other regulars, because we know each others’ views.

    it’s that way with creationist threads, too.

    or libertarian threads….

  169. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    oh, and, btw, though I am in favor of intelligent reform to divorce & custody proceedings that continue to make things less & less based on gender stereotypes & more & more based on what is actually best for kids, the problems in child custody/support are

    a) much less than advertised. MRAs often use the statistics on how often women are given custody in a divorce, but they rarely use the statistics on custody from divorces where custody is contested – the only really relevant statistics – because in these cases, men are more likely to be granted custody than women. Surprise! The women are given the kids thing by default is not a comment on the system, it’s a comment on the fathers – in most cases, they don’t want the custody and assume that the women will take care of them. When they fight, sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, but the system isn’t biased against them. The system is either neutral, and recognizes the generally superior social situation of men and places children in more financially secure homes that are more likely to be run by fathers…OR…the system is biased toward men.

    b) **NOT THE CREATION OF WOMEN** The justice system is still controlled by men. The supreme court has control over the federal judiciary in a supervisory way, not merely a precedent-setting role. It’s 6 guys, 3 women, no trans people. That’s the best it’s ever been. On state levels, where most of the important divorce action takes place, the courts are answerable to state legislatures who make laws & state supreme courts who supervise judges – both of which bodies are dominated by men.

    While some women certainly advocated (successfully) for changes or one type or another, men are not cheated out of input.

    c) afflicted by human fallibility – when anti-man bias affects outcomes in horrible, unjust ways, and it does, these are not proof of anti-man courts, but of human beings that include some very few people who are anti-man in certain assumptions and many more who are simply imperfect and sometimes believe liars or come to a mistaken conclusion based on muddled evidence.

    I am not at all against reforming the system to make it ever better, and every story the MRAs present as problems with the system are tragedies of one kind or another, but the plural of anecdote isn’t data, and they haven’t proved that women control the courts, they haven’t proved that the courts are **taken as a whole** biased against men, and they haven’t proved that those faults are as a result of society granting women too much respect.

    Given that they’ve proven none of their main theses, except on the trivial level that tragedies happen, and given their tactics, I have very little sympathy for the movement.

    My desire to create more & more perfect reform of the courts is because of my pre-existing commitment to gender justice, not from anything they have said.

  170. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @ Caine – good sleep @ya

    –)->

  171. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    PZ Myers says:
    Actually, I know donkane in real life. He is a geneticist, a good one, and he was using “phenotype” perfectly appropriately.

    I feel somewhat mortified. While I did post a link that appeared to support donkane, I did also say that I would not use the word in the context he did.

    echidna says:
    30 September 2011 at 2:38 am

    My sincere apologies.

    I feel that I should offer my apologies also.

  172. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @hairhead says:
    30 September 2011 at 5:48 pm

    I’m Hairhead. WordPress doesn’t let me use the capital “H”; I used to log in on Typepad on the old site — does anybody know how to get my “H” back?

    Try editing your profile. Example:

    Username : andrewv69 Usernames cannot be changed.
    First Name : AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo
    Last Name :
    Nickname (required) : andrewv69
    Display name publicly as: AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo

    Use the drop down box to choose your display name. Relog after changing it to ensure it takes effect.

  173. Bernard Bumner says

    Don Kane was easy enough to find online to confirm that he is a geneticist.

    I cannot agree either with him or PZ that it is entirely appropriate use phenotype to describe the phenomenon he did.

    If some develomental geneticists want to degrade the terminology to the point that penotype now means any charactistic (forgetting, it seems to me, the “type”), then it doesn’t really matter. Not my field any more. Whatever, it was a semantic argument. I the consensus says I’m wrong. then I’m very certainly wrong. That is how it works.

  174. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @tielserrath says:
    30 September 2011 at 10:34 pm

    It’s a result of the appalling Simon Baron Cohen being so wedded to the idea of autistics having ‘Zero empathy’ that he writes whole books on the topic while ignoring all evidence presented to him that his tests, methods and conclusions are wrong.

    At its base seems to be the assertion that ‘autistics don’t react to emotion like I do, therefore they don’t feel’

    I can say with confidence that some autistic spectrum people do exhibit some empathy and feelings (social related hurt etc). I am pretty sure I understand what you are saying, I have no confidence that others do.

  175. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    I can say with confidence that some autistic spectrum people do exhibit some empathy and feelings (social related hurt etc).

    Ah-huh. How very generous of you. I bet you’d even concede that most of us are also technically humans!

  176. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @Bernard Bumner says:

    I cannot agree either with him or PZ that it is entirely appropriate use phenotype to describe the phenomenon he did.

    If some develomental geneticists want to degrade the terminology to the point that penotype now means any charactistic (forgetting, it seems to me, the “type”), then it doesn’t really matter. Not my field any more. Whatever, it was a semantic argument. I the consensus says I’m wrong. then I’m very certainly wrong. That is how it works.

    It is not my field either, although I am interested enough to spend time on blogs concerned with population genetics such as Dienekes’ et. al.

    Where I felt mortified, was in not in explicitly pointing out that the definition I linked to appeared to support his use of it. Hence my apology.

    (I am still not comfortable using it in the context he did, probably because I am an old fogey in certain matters).

  177. Esteleth says

    @CC
    I think that Andrew doesn’t realize that there may be people on the spectrum here. After all, everyone here (trolls notwithstanding) is capable of communicating!

  178. Pteryxx says

    Pfft. That use of “phenotype” might be technically accurate, but that still doesn’t justify using it to claim a genetic basis for an observed variation, much less a fallacious gender-essentialist argument.

    Compare: (from here)

    Even a putatively purely cultural complex behavior (e.g. fishing for termites with a grass stem) is most certainly part of the phenotype, by any coherent definition.

    That’s true. What’s not going to be true is a (hypothetical) claim that any causative genetic difference exists between termite-fishing chimps and non-termite-fishing chimps. Or, for a better-known comparison, great apes or dolphins who understand artificial languages… there’s obvious cultural transmission, but the apes or dolphins haven’t developed a sign-language gene. The capability was always there.

    By extension, “phenotype” would then include all the behaviors that could ever be displayed by all members of the species. Since the phenotype of humans includes examples of all genders who are

    “strong and outspoken and notlikelytotakeshit”. (data not shown)

    then it’s reasonable to postulate that any human has this capability, given the right conditions.

    Thus the question becomes, what conditions foster the greatest expression of human potential?

  179. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Crip Dyke @ 388:
    Speaking of reforming divorce: One interesting idea that’s being floated by leftists in Mexico is to have marriage contracts for X number of years, instead of for life. If at the end of the contract, the couple wants to split, custody and whatnot are prearranged, or, of course, they can renew the contract and stay married.

    On one hand, the idea sounds so radical and on the other it’s like, “huh. Why didn’t anyone think of that before?”

    I saw the story over at Rorschach’s blog: http://furiouspurpose.me/2011/09/30/i-support-temporary-marriage-contracts/

  180. says

    One interesting idea that’s being floated by leftists in Mexico is to have marriage contracts for X number of years, instead of for life. If at the end of the contract, the couple wants to split, custody and whatnot are prearranged, or, of course, they can renew the contract and stay married.

    Actually, I don’t understand that concept, I don’t see the advantages.
    Sure, trying to prearrange things might be a good idea, but I doubt that it is very practical (say the time is 5 years. a lot can change in 5 years. Fiancial arrangements that were good 5 years ago can be null and void, custody arrangements that were sensible 5 years ago might be a bad idea now). And let’s not even talk about the amount of burocracy that would come with it, having to go to the court every X years, handing in your certificate to Y other people every X years.
    So, in the end, I think it’s important how divorce laws are created or reformed. The problems people are running into now would still be the same problems people would be running into then.
    Although it would make a nice excuse for a fiesta.

  181. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @Caine, Fleur du Mal says:

    I was lucky. I was one of three survivors of this person.

    I was even luckier. Someone came looking for me and calling my name (I was a child), so the actual assault never happened, and so far all he had done was suggest I remove my pants. I got the Schroedinger’s Rapist immediately.

    BTW Cain, I left a comment to the effect that I did not see mention of inequality in law regards women that you appear to have alluded to, in the threads I participated in. Did you see it?

    @msironen says:

    Actually the dishonest thing is to invent such a thing as a “potential rapist” in the first place.

    I suspect that you are personally offended by the suggestion that you, a very good person I am sure, would be included in the category.

    OK..let us try Schroedinger’s Doorprize. If you have ever ridden a cycle you will have become accustomed to the fact that some people, after parking their car, will fling open their car door without apparently checking to see if a cyclist is approaching. If the timing is right you the cyclist, will be awarded a doorprize.

    How many incidents of being awarded a doorprize, would it take for you to become wary of cars parked by the road? Would you check to see if the car was occupied? Would you be prepared in advance to commence evasive maneuvers if so?

    If you do not have some glimmer of understanding at this point, I assure you I will not take umbrage. I will however, put you in the category of people who just do not get it, and never will, till they win a doorprize themselves.

    Oh I know, when one of my buddies make a rape joke next time (which, basically, happens ALL THE TIME CAUSE WE’RE ALL RAPISTS) I’ll know to tell him “that’s not cool” (even though I’m a rapist too, even if not actual YET (=potential)).

    I can not tell if you are being sarcastic, I suspect you are, but I for one am not offended in the least if someone makes the odd rape joke around me.

    I have even made one myself that I can remember, but never around a woman. I guess that is where I part company from the people here.

    I am also being hypocritical, in that I would never tolerate any of my children making one, and if someone made one around them there would definately be trouble.

    But that is just me. Others may not be as tolerant. Especially here. Just saying.

  182. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @msironen says:

    You don’t think that makes me sick to my stomach? Am I some kind of sociopath that must be shamed by association (by gender?) for you to prove your point?

    My understanding is a sociopath can not feel shame so I suspect that is not a valid inference.

    My take is that you are apparently unable to view this impersonally. You feel personally insulted that anyone, based on their previous experience should dismiss potiental situations that could lead to similar occurrances.

    Am I correct? Because it never happened to you it does not exist? That it is an insult to everyone everywhere, for someone else to be situationaly aware based on their own experience? No matter what the experience is?

    No offense, but I am not going to respond any more, on the off chance that you are Schroedinger’s Troll.

  183. Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says

    Giliell,
    Arguing that a lot can change in five years is absurd considering that the current, uh, standard for marriage is a lifetime commitment.

    My point is that to reform divorce, we should consider changing our definition of marriage: it shouldn’t be expected to be a life long relationship anymore, seeing as though that doesn’t work for many couples. Having a contingency plan drawn up when times are good seems to be a good first step.

    (I’m not sure why you would would assume that the courts would need to get involved if the contract is renewed. This whole plan seems to be about keeping the courts out when they’re not necessary. If you were to renew your marriage, why not just get the contract notorized, then file it with the city clerk or whatever? Seems easy enough to me.)

  184. scriabin says

    Audley @402 (and Giliell)

    We draft exit strategies between happily consenting shareholders and partners in corporate structures all the time, despite the fact that they are happy with each other and don’t really want to contemplate what happens on the break-up of their legal entity. Such agreements can always be amended with the consent of all parties.

    Frankly, the “continency plan” also simply sounds like a well-crafted pre-nup.

    But putting a mandatory end date on the existence of the entity – subject to rights of renewal, etc. – sounds a bit problematic (automatic renewals in the face of silence?).

    And the contracts themselves open up a lot of issues that may muddy the waters: coercion? validity? substantially changed circumstances? fundamental breaches?

    In most family law situations, you probably want the judge still to use the slightly more subjective/flexible “current best interests of the child (etc)” tests rather than trying to use objective rules of contractual interpretation from a long-since drafted document to determine matters of custody (etc).

    I’m not saying that lawyering up pre-marriage is a bad idea, but it sure opens up a Pandora’s Box. Not to mention legal fees, etc. It can be done, but in my experience (in this sexist society), it might actually/arguably put many women at a further disadvantage.

    I guess it depends on your faith in your justice system. I’m in Canada, so I probably cannot speak to either of your systems.

  185. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    After all, everyone here (trolls notwithstanding) is capable of communicating!

    Ha, ha, ha.
    I think you’re probably right.
    For the potentially ignorant folks at home, not only can many (not all, since that’s the nature of the spectrum) people on the spectrum communicate, but a lot of us (again, not all, cos we’re all individuals, just like NTs) actually have above-average verbal ability of various kinds. I, personally, have difficulty carrying on a conversation except in writing, but as you can see I often write at great length and quite competently. It’s fairly common ’round these parts.
    And yeah… we do have feelings. Even the non-verbal ones. Again, we’re all individuals and respond differently to any given situation, and the way we express our feelings is going to look different and sometimes strange to you, but… I seriously can’t believe I actually need to explain to anyone that yes, autistic people do have feelings. Fuck, right? It’s infuriating.

  186. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @amphiox says:

    You don’t like being regarded constantly as a Schrodinger’s Rapist? Then help create a society where women do not have to be afraid to walk alone at night.

    Here is where I am going to rear up on my hind legs and opine that I do not see that as a realistic goal at all. Not in the slightest.

    Women would be foolish to imagine for a moment a rape free society is possible. Better to be aware that a certain percentage of men and women will rape, and govern yourselves accordingly.

    If some guys are offended by the notion, because they would never rape themselves, all I have to say is sorry. Rape seems to be part of the human spectrum of behavior and both sexes indulge and fantasize in it (porn, bodice rippers, S/M, BDSM etc.)

    Slutwalk all you want. Not going to change a thing (except to shut up some hapless police officer).

    @Daz @Esteleth

    FFS.. at some point I am going to say something about the rape ratios you guys just offered up. Not today, because I am running out of time but perhaps the next time I swing by here.

    @Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart OM, purveyor of candy and lies says:

    Also, do you lock your house at night, even though the potential for it being broken into is actually pretty low?

    I do. but not when I leave it (I live in a very high trust area), Some of my neighbours never lock their doors period.

    I also stopped bothering to lock my car since I moved to my current location, I can leave my laptop, GPS, camera etc on the back seat of my car and fully expect to see them still there when I get back to it from shopping.

    I like where I live.

    Last year I had a lady from Arizona visit (long story, but she did do a complete stranger from Canada a favour) and got invited to visit. She stayed for two weeks and professed herself impressed at the community I live in.

    (As an aside, I was amused because her grand-kids called every day, and I got the feeling it was to make sure I had not cooked her in the fireplace).

    @John Morales says:

    4. You’re religious? You have my sympathy.

    (But you can overcome that, with a bit of intellectual honesty and existential bravery. I encourage you to do so)

    I doubt that. Religious belief appears to be part of the human condition. Apparently you either have it or you do not. Otherwise it would not be so trivially easy to indoctrinate most people into one. Yes? No?

    @’Tis Himself, OM says:

    Translation: It’s a fucked up opinion that Pox Day pulled out of his large intestine.

    Nope. Some of you guys have a defective provocation meter. If you follow the link Vox gave you will see why. Here it is. Kinky stuff IMO:
    http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2011/09/killer-game.html

    @John Morales says:

    I think, I hope she’s forgiven me, but I haven’t)

    If she has forgiven you, then perhaps you should do the same. That sounds trite, even to me I admit.

    @Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden
    I doubt it will make you feel better but in my experience children are capable of even more. I have both spoken up and said nothing about worse, so I do not know what I would have done.

    I am out of time. g2g. back in a few hours.

  187. Tapetum says

    CC – wait, people actually argue that autistic people don’t have feelings? That’s so fucked up I don’t even know what to say. Believing that they don’t understand feelings, or have empathy, I have run into, and can even understand (as a position of utter ignorance), since they may be failing to understand non-standard modes of communication, but the other is so screwed up I don’t know what to say.

    I do know one person on the autistic spectrum with a marked lack of empathy, but I would never try to argue that he doesn’t have feelings of his own. Nor does his lack of empathy have anything to do with his autism. If anything, the autism makes the lack of empathy easier to deal with, because as much as his greatest joy is manipulating people and screwing with them, the social difficulties spawned by the autism ensure that he’s pretty bad at it.

  188. says

    Tapetum:

    wait, people actually argue that autistic people don’t have feelings?

    Yes, they do. One of the more furiating aspects of Egate was the amount of MRAs claiming that Eguy was probably autistic and didn’t get social cues. This lame ass and inaccurate excusing of Eguy was especially annoying in that most autistic people are more aware of social cues than NTs.

  189. says

    I do think that saying that either Schrodinger’s Rapist or Schrodinger’s Mugger is valid, but not both, is hypocritical.

    no honey; you ignorance of power gradients does not make the correct assessment of a situation hypocritical, it simply makes you wilfully ignorant. Here’s how that actually works with race:

    From Richard Wright’s “The Ethics of Living Jim Crow”:

    Negroes who have lived South know the dread of being caught alone upon the streets in white neighborhoods after the sun has set. In such a simple situation as this the plight of the Negro in America is graphically symbolized. While white strangers may be in these neighborhoods trying to get home, they can pass unmolested. But the color of a Negro’s skin makes him easily recognizable, makes him suspect, converts him into a defenseless target.

    From Barbara Cameron’s “Gee, You Don’t Seem Like An Indian From the Reservation”:

    Because of experiencing racial violence, I sometimes panic when I’m the only non-white in a roomful of whites, even if they are my closest friends; I wonder if I’ll leave the room alive. The seemingly copacetic gay world of San Francisco becomes a mere dream after the panic leaves

    besides, if you live in a high-crime area, all people become potential muggers to be potentially warded against; if you use race to determine who to be afraid of, you’re simply racist, since muggers are not predominantly black. Rapists on the other hand are almost exclusively (90%) male.

  190. says

    Most women do not spend every minute of their lives assessing risk of being in close proximity to any and all men.

    what does “most women” mean?

    teenage girls are taught “common sense” behavioral rules not taught to boys; colleges then go and reinforce these rules; travel guides and traveler’s forums have special sections about “women traveling alone” with advice on how to avoid trouble, all also described as “basic common sense”; etc.

    a lot of this “common sense” is people turning SR from an is into an ought. But what the existence of all these things shows is that a lot of women do behave just like the SR article said they do, it’s just all in the guise of “common sense”; when that “common sense” applies differently to men than to women, that’s SR in the wild.

  191. Pteryxx says

    Women would be foolish to imagine for a moment a rape free society is possible. Better to be aware that a certain percentage of men and women will rape, and govern yourselves accordingly.

    If some guys are offended by the notion, because they would never rape themselves, all I have to say is sorry. Rape seems to be part of the human spectrum of behavior and both sexes indulge and fantasize in it (porn, bodice rippers, S/M, BDSM etc.)

    I see someone missed the point of my #397 (link). And ‘e isn’t even claiming to be a geneticist.

    We fantasize about and indulge in lots of things – flight, vacations, time travel, heaven, women voting, w’ever. Living in a society where rape is rare is a pretty viable concept; and a lot of us not only fantasize about it, but also work on making it so.

  192. Philip Legge says

    Rape seems to be part of the human spectrum of behavior and both sexes indulge and fantasize in it (porn, bodice rippers, S/M, BDSM etc.)

    That sentence (and a lot of the dreck around it) seems to be a weakly-phrased justification that we should simply put up with rape, because it’s in our range of possible or potential behaviour. As if we should put up with homicide or any other crime.

  193. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    Rape seems to be part of the human spectrum of behavior and both sexes indulge and fantasize in it (porn, bodice rippers, S/M, BDSM etc.)

    As a BDSM practitioner who has been raped twice, I’d just like to tell you to please go fuck yourself.

  194. says

    Rape seems to be part of the human spectrum of behavior

    so is warfare; should we abandon any attempts at minimizing the number of wars in the world, though? that’s called the naturalistic fallacy.

    both sexes indulge and fantasize in it

    oh FFS. someone needs to read Greta Christina’s articles on the subject of fantasies, immediately:
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/09/14/sexual-fantasies-and-the-road-not-taken/

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2011/09/15/sexual-fantasies-and-the-road-not-taken-part-two/

  195. says

    also, it takes a very special cupcake to think that bodice-rippers are anything other than an outgrowth of the patriarchal rule that “good women don’t enjoy sex”; so, the only way a heroine gets to “enjoy” sex is if she was the good, virtuous, sex-averse madonna and was “made to” enjoy it; then it’s not her fault and she’s not a whore for enjoying it.

    it’s sexism and it’s rape culture, pure and simple.

  196. Mattir says

    Just because I fantasize about someone spewing jiz into the particle accelerator at CERN does not mean that I really want anyone to jerk off at CERN, nor does it mean that we should just accept that random wankers will be assaulting the protons and there’s nothing much we can do about it.

    I’m actually in agreement that it’s unlikely that a human society can eliminate rape entirely. We could, however, make it a whole hell of a lot less common or even normal. Among other things, we can teach kids, especially boys, about the need to make sure one has sexy-sex-enthusiastic-consent for all the sexual proceedings and how this makes the sex even better.

  197. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says:

    The lack of police protection backs this up

    If you think about it, I believe you will see that the police are actually historians. To Serve and Protect is just a comforting slogan.

    Ah-huh. How very generous of you. I bet you’d even concede that most of us are also technically humans!

    Well, seeing as my youngest child is a high functioning autistic, and I apparently exhibit some of the traits, then I would have to say yes.

    As a matter of fact, in some ways my autistic child displays more empathy than I do. I have seen him lie down and cry because of something a niece said to him once. Something that would never have affected me in the slightest.

    @Esteleth says:

    I think that Andrew doesn’t realize that there may be people on the spectrum here.

    Correct. I did not realize that at all.

    After all, everyone here (trolls notwithstanding) is capable of communicating!

    I am not so sure about that. I have difficulty identifying a troll, so that to me leaves open the possibility that some people just do not get what you are trying to get across.

    I, personally, have difficulty carrying on a conversation except in writing, but as you can see I often write at great length and quite competently. It’s fairly common ’round these parts.

    In my case I have to translate symbols, pictures and shapes into words. Then either translate the words into voice (which is actually quicker for me) or write them down, which is more problamatic, as I have to write the shape of the word. In other words, I do not actually spell words, I use the keyboard to construct the approximate shape of the word, and then use a spell checker. I can not use some fonts at all for that reason.

    And yeah… we do have feelings. Even the non-verbal ones. Again, we’re all individuals and respond differently to any given situation, and the way we express our feelings is going to look different and sometimes strange to you, but… I seriously can’t believe I actually need to explain to anyone that yes, autistic people do have feelings. Fuck, right? It’s infuriating.

    You do not need to, to me anyway.

    I used the word some because in the case of severly autistic kids, I can not tell what is going on within them. I know about my child, to a certain degree of confidence, and I have some idea about other high function kids from being around them.

    But for me to state otherwise than some, I would have to be a great deal more confident about the whole business than I am now, and I am not convinced that I possess the full range of human emotion/empathy that others appear to exhibit either.

    So I am not going to speak for others other than to say apparently and some. If you want to claim otherwise, I will take your word about yourself.

  198. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @Pteryxx says:

    I see someone missed the point of my #397 (link). And ‘e isn’t even claiming to be a geneticist.

    You are right I missed the point and I still do not see what you are getting at. I just bookmarked it as something to review later, so it would be pointless to try and explain any further to me right now.

    Philip Legge says:

    That sentence (and a lot of the dreck around it) seems to be a weakly-phrased justification that we should simply put up with rape, because it’s in our range of possible or potential behaviour. As if we should put up with homicide or any other crime.

    I am taking that to mean that people have showed up here to do that? Really? Is it not self evident why there are certain laws? This is stretching credibility a bit too far.

  199. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM and Caine, Fleur du Mal:

    I am assuming that you are not saying that BDSM is not part of the human spectrum. So I am curious, what exactly are you offended about?

    @Jadehawk and Caine:

    also, it takes a very special cupcake to think that bodice-rippers are anything other than an outgrowth of the patriarchal rule that “good women don’t enjoy sex”; so, the only way a heroine gets to “enjoy” sex is if she was the good, virtuous, sex-averse madonna and was “made to” enjoy it; then it’s not her fault and she’s not a whore for enjoying it.

    it’s sexism and it’s rape culture, pure and simple.

    I worked for a and part of the package was a carton of the latest books which I distributed free to all of my women friends, and married or single, they were very interested in them.

    a). The formula for writing these books was heavily researched. Polls, surveys, focus groups out the wazoo. The majority of the people involved in all aspects of producing these books (storlyline, scripts, formulas, packaging, artwork, marketing) were women, and the books sold like hotcakes to their target

    b). You can say whatever you want about patriarchal rule etc. It does not change the fact that the books were very profitable (still are to the best of my knowledge) and that the women reading them, as far as I could tell were addicted.

  200. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    Fail. Lets try that again.

    I worked for a [major publishing company] and part of the package was a carton of the latest books

  201. Ichthyic says

    You can say whatever you want about patriarchal rule etc. It does not change the fact that the books were very profitable

    this also does nothing but support the very ideas of rape culture that were mentioned in the post you responded to.

    can you not see this?

    if all of your ideas of how food should be eaten come from living in a prison cell, being served oatmeal every day, you might then conclude that oatmeal is the only “proper” food.

    likewise, it’s quite easy to imagine that exposure to thousands of years of misogynistic culture might tend to shape one’s sexual predilections as well.

    all the poll data is doing is simply recording the current state of things, that then is applied to marketing; it cannot make value judgements on whether those things are good or bad.

    in essence, all you have done is made a simple argumentum ad populum.

  202. Ichthyic says

    the women reading them, as far as I could tell were addicted.

    that’s an interesting way to phrase it. Probably more interesting than you would care to think about.

    let’s try something simpler:

    say you run across a town where most of the people cut themselves every day. They’ve been doing it for generations, and can’t even recall a time when they didn’t.

    they also say they are addicted to the rush it causes, and makes them feel “alive”.

    your conclusion from that experience would be… what, exactly?

    cutting themselves is a good thing, because all of them do it?

    what about cultures that really do cut little girls, and have for generations?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_mutilation

    they think they are doing a good thing.

    do you?

    why?

  203. says

    TL;DR but Andrew, surely you’re not saying that because a person puts up with abuse and even comes to rely on it or even gets satisfaction from it, that the abuse is therefore okay or even good?

    Try reading this (just off the top of my head as something I recently read): http://brokendaughters.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/cutting-eating-disorders-selfdestructive-behaviours/

    I remember a day where I had gotten a spanking and it didn’t satisfy my need to feel real pain. I sat in the bathroom, hitting my head with a hairbrush, not feeling the pain I wanted to feel, shrieking out in shrill screams then cursing at myself. You are a piece of shit, everybody hates you, you are worthless, you can’t do anything, you will go to hell and marry the devil and God will laugh at you, your parents hate you, you’re going to hell anyway so kill yourself right now and release them from this burden, you piece of dirty dog shit. I whispered these things to myself in a snakelike manner so my parents wouldn’t hear, but they certainly heard the screaming. My Dad came knocking on the door, telling me that I needed to stop the screaming or else I’d get another spanking. I hushed up quickly and answered “Yes Dad” as cheerful as I could. I started tearing my hair out, hitting myself with everything that wasnt nailed to the ground, and it didn’t satisfy, so I hit my head against the wall, hoping it will finally start bleeding so I could stop. But it didn’t bleed. It never did.

    If this can happen to a young girl in her short life, can’t you imagine that it might have happened to all of us to some degree over centuries of misogynistic culture? We just don’t know if rape fantasy and bodice-ripper stuff would be just as prevalent and popular if we didn’t live in a rape culture. Why don’t we get rid of the rape culture and try to find out?

  204. says

    Women would be foolish to imagine for a moment a rape free society is possible. Better to be aware that a certain percentage of men and women will rape, and govern yourselves accordingly.

    That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to reduce it. The prevalence of rape, like other forms of violent crime, is affected by socio-cultural factors: humans are social animals whose behaviour is affected by the environment in which we live, and it’s empirically verifiable that some societies experience more sexual violence than others. Accordingly, by changing social norms and power-structures, we can reduce the incidence of rape. Throwing your hands in the air and assuming that there’s nothing we can do about it, and assuming that it’s all predetermined by “human nature” without considering the role of environmental factors, is stupid.

    Rape seems to be part of the human spectrum of behavior and both sexes indulge and fantasize in it (porn, bodice rippers, S/M, BDSM etc.)

    You’re conflating a lot of different things here. For one thing, you’re ignoring the distinction between mutually consensual sadomasochism (the key word being consensual) and sexual assault. They are completely different things. And it’s entirely unsubstantiated, and offensive, to suggest or imply that an enjoyment of the former is associated with a propensity towards the latter.

    For another, fantasizing about something does not necessarily mean that one actually wants to do it; still less that one wants to have it done to one without one’s consent.

  205. says

    they were very interested in them.

    and I made the claim that women aren’t interested in them…. where…?

    a). The formula for writing these books was heavily researched. Polls, surveys, focus groups out the wazoo. The majority of the people involved in all aspects of producing these books (storlyline, scripts, formulas, packaging, artwork, marketing) were women, and the books sold like hotcakes to their target

    b). You can say whatever you want about patriarchal rule etc. It does not change the fact that the books were very profitable (still are to the best of my knowledge) and that the women reading them, as far as I could tell were addicted.

    is this supposed to be a refutation to anything I said? Do you know how cognitive dissonance resolution works? Do you know how culture works? Do you know anything at all about the interaction between individual psychology and sociocultural forces?
    Or was that just some non sequitur you felt like sharing?

  206. says

    Here is where I am going to rear up on my hind legs and opine that I do not see that as a realistic goal at all. Not in the slightest.

    Why is it always the men who have such a depressing view of other men? Do they need to make the others look bad so they can shine?
    No, cupcake, we will probably never have a 100% homicide-free, rape-free, fraud-free, people-spitting-onto-the-pavement-free society. Doesn’t mean we can’t change things to a large degree.
    Why am I confident? Because we see it every fucking day. We experience it every fucking day.
    I lived in different cultures and changed my behaviour according to that. Accepting a ride from a stranger on a small motorbike in Cuba: acceptable. Doing so in Ireland: unthinkable. Holy Heffalump, I even do it within my own culture, where I can let my guard down according to whom I’m with.
    Tell me, were all those guys who never raped me, regardless of how small, unprotected, vulnerable, drunk, scantingly dressed, flirting or alone I was, the unusual exception to the rule, or were they just normal guys who understood that this would be wrong?

    Audley
    First, let me rephrase the “courts”, that was poorly worded. What I meant was any authority where you have to show up in order to renew your marriage.
    I would disagree with he presumption that current marriage is a “lifetime commitment”. Unless, of course, you are a fundamentalist christian.
    Sure, everybody who gets married thinks that they’re going to make it last for life, that they will be among the 50% who don’t get a divorce (German statistics), but I think that everybody is aware that marriage can end and that it is actually a commitment until it ends, be it by death or divorce.
    I think this wouldn’t change with a 5 year renewable contract. People would still thik that they were going to make it to 12X5 when they sign it for the first time. And probably won’t invest much time in drafting an elaborate contract then, because they won’t need it.
    So, when the 5 years are over, and one party thinks that they were screwed 5 years ago or that things are too different now, they’d still go to court.
    At least here, getting a divorce when both of you agree isn’t much of a hazzle. You take your standard marriage contract (the one everybody has by default), divide the goods according to that, have a lawyer to check if you did it right, make a court appointment, get a divorce. Go for a posh dinner together afterwards (and before you accuse me of making things up, this is the exact way it happened with an aunt of my husband’s).
    What they’re discussing at the moment is the possibility to avoid court in such cases alltogether and simply go to a notary.
    Things get complicated when both parties disagree, when one wants to act out revenge, when they fight over the kids, the dog, the tea-pot. I don’t think that would stop when you have to renew the contract every 5 years.

  207. julian says

    Why is it always the men who have such a depressing view of other men? Do they need to make the others look bad so they can shine?

    Partly. It also means if we do trip up, it’s not so bad since we were good all those other times. There’s less guilt, reason to reconsider your actions and incentive to fix the issue. After all if ‘all guys do it’ and it’s ‘going to happen’ then the problem becomes as unsolvable as a storm or hurricane. It becomes your responsibility to protect yourself instead of our responsibility to not commit the crime.

    Anyway that’s just my thinking. No psych studies or anything to back it.

  208. toth says

    Yeah, guys! Let it go! I’m going to make yet another blog post telling you to let it go!

    For fuck’s sake, PZ…

  209. Dhorvath, OM says

    Giliell,

    Why is it always the men who have such a depressing view of other men? Do they need to make the others look bad so they can shine?

    Nice Guy™ syndrome.

  210. cicely, Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac says

    I worked for a and part of the package was a carton of the latest books which I distributed free to all of my women friends, and married or single, they were very interested in them.

    AndrewV69, possibly you are unaware of the societal pressure to conform to this interest. My anecdata, let me show you it:

    My reading interests, from 6th grade on, have massively tended towards history, sci-fi, and fantasy. I checked out, generally, 10 books a week from the library, almost exclusively in these genres. Anyone half-way observant who was interested in seeing what my reading preferences were, should have been in no doubt about them; and yet, when teachers, parents, friends, etc., were recommending books for me to read, or buying me books as gifts, they were almost invariably…schlocky romances. Or nurse story/romances. Even Nancy Drew mysteries were, apparently, a bit too “un-girly” for most to consider. In high school, especially, the weird looks and —— comments were relentless; if I was reading history, it was too high-brow; if I was reading sci-fi, “those are boy’s books!”; if I was reading fantasy, the assumptions seemed to divide between Disney-esque fluff, and some sort of porn. Meanwhile, those Harlequin things were always offered as loaner-books, and gothic romances were (in high school) suggested as appropriate for me to read for my book reports.

    No pressure. At all.

    Painful introversion + oral book report + room-full of disapproving/confused peerish eyeballs constitutes considerable pressure to conform, trust me.

    Not that I’m bitter, or anything. At all.
    -

  211. says

    This is from Crommunist on his recent “mixed feelings” post:

    While I have found the freethinking community to be fairly forgiving and tolerant, even when they themselves are being criticized, the experience of people who had the galling temerity to talk about something that criticizes the majority (I am thinking explicitly of Rebecca Watson here) gives me reason to be a bit anxious. At least I am less likely to be threatened with rape.

    I thought it worthy of repeating, as it hints at the larger effects of these attacks and silencing tactics.

  212. Pteryxx says

    Anyone half-way observant who was interested in seeing what my reading preferences were, should have been in no doubt about them; and yet, when teachers, parents, friends, etc., were recommending books for me to read, or buying me books as gifts, they were almost invariably…schlocky romances. Or nurse story/romances. Even Nancy Drew mysteries were, apparently, a bit too “un-girly” for most to consider.

    …That’s… horrible. It hurts my brain, yet (or because) it explains some very disturbing patterns I’ve seen in my family and my past. And here I thought the pink-ghetto effect meant only cartoons and the toy aisle… how naive of me.

  213. says

    Cicely, I count myself as very fortunate to have avoided most of that. I obtained permission from the [Santa Ana, Ca] library to use the adult section when I was 10 years old, and like you, came home every week with my bike basket stuffed with a wide variety of sci-fi, all things geeky, classics, adventure, etc.

    I had already gone through most of A’s library and my grandparents’ library. The only one who read romances was my grandmother, and she kept those off the library shelves. I had looked at them once, and remember being distinctly unimpressed.

    I did receive the whole set of Nancy Drew mysteries, but that’s as close to “girly” as anyone ever got when it came to me and books.

    There were a number of girls in school who went on and on about various romance books, but they never pushed them too hard, at least not to me. I do remember one of the nuns getting very upset when she discovered I was reading Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment, called home about it and was told to leave me alone.

  214. cicely, Inadvertent Phytocidal Maniac says

    Caine, the women who ran the Bookmobile were the only adults I can remember who unhesitatingly were supportive of my desire to read “un-girly” books, were very helpful with suggestions for additional reading in the areas that interested me, and extended my reading privileges into the adult section. They may have saved me from a life of Unrelenting Pinkness.

    Little things do matter.
    -

  215. illuminata says

    A quick note for the braindead trolls who think OBVIOUSLY everyone they associate with are not rapists:

    In March 2009, I was at the dentist’s office, getting a consult for the repair of two of my molars that were broken. The hygienist (my cousin, who’d known me and Him for years) went on and on and on about how good looking he was and how I better “snap him up quick before another woman steals him!” because he was “so considerate and attentive. Women would kill for that kind of man!!”

    She was talking about the man who repeatedly raped me and whose full force uppercut to my jaw was what broke those two molars.

    Another example to consider:

    Altimeo Sanchez was described by all his neighbors as a nice guy. He brought donuts to work and coached his sons’ sports teams. He was a good man and everyone liked him.

    He was also the Bike Path Rapist.

    Women – and all other members of groups more vulnerable to rape and sexual assault – CAN’T judge the book by its cover.

    If you read that and still only talk about how it hurts your fee fees, how its just like how privileged people consider non-privileged, how its an overreaction – I will consider you a potentially larger threat. In my experience, the more selfish and more self-pitying someone is, the more likely they are a danger. Because that’s exactly what my rapist was. When you sound just like him, I assess the risk accordingly.

    Want to guess how much I care if you find that unfair and offensive?

    I will assess my risk. And I hope you never have like cause to do the same.

  216. Classical Cipher, Murmur Muris, OM says

    For one thing, you’re ignoring the distinction between mutually consensual sadomasochism (the key word being consensual) and sexual assault. They are completely different things. And it’s entirely unsubstantiated, and offensive, to suggest or imply that an enjoyment of the former is associated with a propensity towards the latter.

    This, Andrew. As a woman who enjoys consensual BDSM and roleplaying (though my ability to enjoy this and indeed anything sexual has been damaged – temporarily I hope – by my history), it’s horrendously offensive to hear you effectively saying that rapes – you know, like the ones I suffered at the hands of two different people I loved, which had absolutely no resemblance to consensual BDSM since they were non-consensual – are to be expected because, after all, people like me exist.

  217. says

    Women would be foolish to imagine for a moment a rape free society is possible. Better to be aware that a certain percentage of men and women will rape, and govern yourselves accordingly.

    Call me a fool, then. If sex were socially constructed in a different way it would be very difficult to conceive of rape and carry it out without causing a lot of shit. Consent isn’t considered sexy or really needed by the mainstream culture. The way it is now, many women don’t figure out that they were raped until later on, because the social construction of sexuality is right in line with rape culture. Guys who don’t set out to be rapists commit rapes because the line between sex and rape is blurred by culture. The line between “boxing match” and “assault” isn’t blurred in such a way, because the collective understanding of the humanity of participants isn’t questionable. The humanity of women is questionable to most people. Many people consider women to exist for sex- how can you rape something that exists to be fucked? The language and concepts involved shouldn’t be underestimated as determinants of thoughts. They determine a whole lot of what normal people think about rape and sex. Maybe there will always be a little bit of rape, but I believe that the vast majority of it could be eliminated.

  218. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    +388 @Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says:
    2 October 2011 at 6:02 am

    but they rarely use the statistics on custody from divorces where custody is contested – the only really relevant statistics – because in these cases, men are more likely to be granted custody than women.

    I find this an interesting assertation. I am going to email this comment to a few bloggers and see what the response (if any) is. I hope at least one of them will address the statistics on custody from divorces where custody is contested.

    Speaking of which, what is the source of your data/conclusions? It would help if everyone used the same data I think.

  219. AndrewV69, Visiting MRA, Purveyor of Piffle & Woo says

    @Pteryxx says: 2 October 2011 at 2:59 pm

    I see someone missed the point of my #397 (link). And ‘e isn’t even claiming to be a geneticist.

    We fantasize about and indulge in lots of things – flight, vacations, time travel, heaven, women voting, w’ever. Living in a society where rape is rare is a pretty viable concept; and a lot of us not only fantasize about it, but also work on making it so.

    You are correct in that I do fail to see your point. This is correct and as you note And ‘e isn’t even claiming to be a geneticist

    So I went back and compared and contrasted the following statements via the link you provided where:

    What is certain is that phenotype cannot legitimately be used to describe culturally-derived behaviour.

    VS

    Even a putatively purely cultural complex behavior (e.g. fishing for termites with a grass stem) is most certainly part of the phenotype, by any coherent definition.

    Despite my discomfort with the way phenotype is used here, I am going to select the latter statement to be true. Asserting that phenotype can not be legitimately used this way, has been shown to be complete bollocks (wikipedia *cough* and donkane).

    Finally, I do live in a society where rape is relatively rare. I am under the impression that you do not think so for your society, wherever that is.

  220. Ing says

    Finally, I do live in a society where rape is relatively rare. I am under the impression that you do not think so for your society, wherever that is.

    I bet