Matt Moore’s incredible Christian arrogance


In the Christian Post, “ex-gay” Matt Moore pens a letter to gay youth, alleging that the various personal difficulties he’s faced in his life are emblematic of, and inherent to, the “gay lifestyle”. Buried in paragraphs of meaningless churchy blathering and profoundly hateful generalizations about how all gay people are sex-addicted drug abusers, this remarkable claim jumped out at me:

God has allowed a lot things to take place since time began that are not good. He has allowed evil. He has allowed sin. He has allowed murder. He has allowed rape. He has allowed homosexual desires….. and they are all apart of His greater plan. Get this, the worst sins ever committed were against God Himself, Jesus Christ, as He was beaten and crucified on a Cross. He allowed that. Again, why?… because it was all apart of His greater plan. And what’s God’s plan, you may ask? To bring glory to His Name.

Crucifixion may be a pretty horrible way to die, but it’s a bit of a stretch to say that crucifying one person was “the worst sin ever committed”, regardless of whether that person was actually God. At the very least, Unit 731 could give crucifixion a run for its money in terms of awful ways to kill people. And what about those two other fellows who were supposedly crucified next to Jesus? Did they suffer any less? Really, when you’re an all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipresent, eternal deity, being killed by humans – whatever the method – seems like it would be a minor inconvenience at worst. That is, unless he decided to turn himself into a kind of utility monster who really did suffer to an astronomically greater degree than anyone else, just so his followers could claim that mistreatment of their god is the worst thing that could ever happen of all time. Of all time!

Comments

  1. says

    And what’s God’s plan, you may ask? To bring glory to His Name.

    Is God really so incredibly self-absorbed that THAT’S His grand plan? Bring glory to His own name? Seriously?

    Dude needs to get a life.

    • machintelligence says

      So God is a glory hound. I kind of expected better from a being who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omni… omni…

      • roland72 says

        I know it’s a losing battle, but it’s “benevolent”, not “omnibenevolent”. This grates on me the same way as “please keep your belongings with you at all times”. How is that different in meaning to “please keep your belongings with you”? *allows self a moment of pedantic fuming, then gets back off hobby horse to engage in more constructive pursuits*

        • says

          Assuming we allow for degrees of goodness (which I find plenty reasonable), there is a difference between omni-benevolent and benevolent. One is completely good to the highest possible degree, and the other is merely just good on some level.

      • Albert says

        Humans who worship self turn into some of the most evil creatures (Hitler, Stalin, Recent killer in Colorado and etc) on this planet but those who sincerely worship God find a greater purpose themselves that is expressed in serving others without seeking self-glory. Majority of charities in years past were found by such individuals (Salvation Army, Red Cross, Hospitals, and etc). God does not need or depend on us for his vanity but he understands that selfish humanity is the cause of all evil in our world. Look around you and tell what motives people to commit evil if not for self in some manner.

    • kagekiri says

      Yeah…he takes vanity to another level.

      The defenses my Christian past conjures up are “He’s the only one who’s worthy, so it’s justified pride/vanity/selfishness, unlike human versions!” or “Who are you to question God’s higher ways?! He created us, he can do whatever he wants with us!”

      That self-hating “love and worship” of God is a major reason I became incredibly depressed, self-hating, and nihilistic as a Christian.

      • Albert says

        Once I renounced seeking self and found Christ, I was free to live and serve others. It has been of the freeing and satisfying changes in my life. Hollywood should the most happy place since they have the greatest access to self-worship but it is the best example of the tragic consequences on how self-worship destroys a life. Look at them and see how many of them tragically fall apart personally generally ending as a wasted life hooked on drugs and depression. Christ said the following “For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.”

        He is was right. We humans are a dismal tragedy but we blame God for it.

    • says

      Actually yes, that claim needs to be taken seriously because it’s not just him saying it. A lot of Christians believe that their god’s goal is to bring glory to its name, and our job is to worship it. They believe that god is good by definition–that bringing glory to god’s name is the ultimate good.

  2. JSC_ltd says

    Arrogance, lack of reasoning capabilities, penchant for making blatantly idiotic statements, take your pick.

  3. says

    This just shows the childlike authoritarian mindset so many Christians have: Daddy is the only thing in their universe, Daddy knows all and makes all the rules, Daddy punishes all who do wrong, and breaking Daddy’s rules is the most horrible evil transgression that baby can even comprehend.

  4. 'Tis Himself says

    I’ve never understood the point of the crucifixion as a “sacrifice.”

    According to the propaganda Jesus is a god. Gods don’t die, it’s in their contract. So Jesus spent an unpleasant afternoon hanging around Calvary and then a day and a half later he’s all better again. How is that a sacrifice? Jesus knew he’d be back as good as new.

    Supposedly Yahweh is annoyed because his creation, humanity, isn’t playing nice and isn’t kissing his ass as much as he’d like. So he sends Junior down to get sacrificed. But according to the propaganda Yahweh can do anything and everything. So if he’s upset he can poof himself feel all better without Jesus doing the torture bit.

    Nope, the story has a couple of plot holes big enough to drive a truck through.

    • Steve says

      And this is after he already tried to get people to behave by throwing them out of the garden Eden and killing almost all life in a huge flood. God really, really sucks at management

    • kagekiri says

      Yeah, the whole “forgiveness needs a sacrifice” bit with Jesus and original sin doesn’t seem to jive with Jesus saying to forgive anyone an unlimited number of times.

      “God” expects us to forgive with zero cost or memory, yet he is unable to do that himself. Instead, he tortures himself and holds the guilt of that torture over humanity’s head, and punishes those who don’t submit to that contrived guilt-tripping.

      • Ysanne says

        And anyways, say Jesus sacrifices himself. Or god sacrifices him. Whatever.
        How is this a sacrifice that says “sorry, we’ll be good from now on” on behalf of the people who killed the special divine person who told them to be good exactly for not liking to be told to be good?

  5. eric says

    Jesus, the aescetic proponent of celibacy, dirt-poverty, and forsaking one’s family to walk barefoot from town to town preaching about god suffered more than anyone else – just to teach you to settle down, have a family, get a job, and give 10% of your earnings to the church. And oh yeah, its absolutely, critically important that that family be straight.

    Well, I’ll grant him this: the ‘be straight’ part makes as much sense as the rest of it.

  6. Rob says

    As long as we’re asking questions… I’ve never understood how the pre and post Jesus Christ eras were different. There were wars before and wars after, there were diseases before and diseases after, there were crimes before and the same crimes after. Other than the founding of the Jesus Christ Fan Club what changed?

  7. says

    And what about those two other fellows who were supposedly crucified next to Jesus? Did they suffer any less?

    More, pretty much by definition: They didn’t have friends who came to get them down at sunset of the first day like Jesus did. That’s good for at another day of horrible torment, maybe two or three. And that still pales in comparison to the drawn-out, painful, days and weeks long deaths routinely inflicted by the Inquisition (and pretty much all of Europe’s civil authorities at the time), the Ottoman Empire, the Chinese Legalists, and the Aztecs just offhand. I know there are more, but I can’t be bothered looking them up. Then, of course, there’s ebola, tetanus, polio and assorted cancers, just to open up the list of entirely non-human related ways to die indescribably horribly, in far more extended pain than a day on the cross.

  8. says

    “[…] He has allowed evil. He has allowed sin. He has allowed murder. He has allowed rape. […]”

    Have you noticed how much of an asshole God is yet? Maybe you should stop following someone who sits on his ass while evil goes unaddressed?

    • George says

      Man,if God decides to punish all the evil in this world tonight at 12:00,where would you be at one past twelve? Or are you too good and will go to heaven anyway-at least that`s what most of the people think-I`m ok,I don`t steal,I don`t lie(much),I have a wife and a kid,I`m a good person-Hypocrites! That`s why it`s much easier for criminals and ghetto outcasts to repent-they know that what they do is bad. The average guy doesn`t! Only when you ask Jesus to wash your sins away,only then you get the assurance of salvation and future in heaven. If you were born in a ghetto,if you lived your life killing or be killed,you`d be a bad guy,yeah? But the “straight” guys never killed or beat people not because they`re angels but because they never had to-they were never born in a place like that,had good families,etc…and THEY are the ones that think they`re ok without God-“I`m a good guy and will surely deserve heaven”-HA! Surprise-there is no heaven unless you (sincerely)give your heart to God and accept Jesus as your Saviour,give him all of your personal crap-porn addiction,deceipt,envy,etc…Unless you enter into a relationship with Him,there will be no forgiveness for you-not because God is cruel,but because you`ve never asked Him in! He loves you and wants you but he also gives you a free will-to go His way(life),or your way(death in hell). Trust me,I know this from personal experience! I never knew how much God loved me untill I surrendered my life to Him-my life full of sexual pleasures with many people`s wifes and girlfriends,my life full of drunkennes,cocaine and violence. When I thought I was at my highes,and free-Then I`ve actually been at my lowest,my spirit imprisoned. It`s a long story,if anyone needs to talk,you`re wellcome. Sorry if I mess up your thing here,I just know what is about and had the same(and worst)things to say before I met Him. When people talk,they don`t give it much talk and that`s what is the biggest danger nowadays-God doesn`t send us to hell. Hell is where we are all naturally headed to-the life without Him,not some prison,created by Him to torture us. Shame that only when you hit rock bottom,you really cry to Him. I thank him that I hit rock bottom,otherwise I would`ve continied to my road to hell!

  9. says

    Hey there, guys. You should know, that all of you that write such hateful things against Almighty God are in a world of trouble. You are condemned to death in God’s eyes; in fact, His wrath abides on you (John 3:18,36). What you need is to be born again, to be cleansed in the blood of Christ whom you mock. Don’t get too cocky because God is angry with the wicked (that’s you) every day. There is a temptation to believe that God, if He exists, will love and accept you just the way you are. Nothing could be further from the truth. God does not accept you, will not accept you and could never accept you the way you are at present.

    You will one day leave this life and, when you do, God will hold you accountable for every word you’ve ever spoken. If those words are against Jesus Christ, you will suffer the judgement which is your due. Repent: turn from your evil, unbelieving, mocking lives and ask Christ to save you. He is your only hope. If you will trust and obey Him, the wrath of God will not touch you (Romans 5:9). However, if you choose not to, you will die in your sims. Please, consider what I’m telling you. And listen to Matt Moore.

      • says

        Westboro…really? Forget those guys; they don’t know what they’re talking about. God really does love everyone and He doesn’t want anyone to get what’s coming to them. He’s made provision for you to be reconciled to Him. Don’t put it off because you’re arrogant and think you know it all. I guarantee you that much more intelligent people than yourself have received their part of hell fire.

        If you read that Westboro booklet you’ll probably find verses that claim God hates sinners. Well, that’s true; He does. How can he love everyone and hate them at the same time? Well, who says hate and love are opposites? Hatred is nothing more than a strong dislike/aversion. Certainly, those things are true about God’s relationship with the sinner.

        You have waged war against God in your heart, thereby, making Him your enemy. If the truth be told, there’s no worse enemy to have than Almighty God. My job is to educate you on the reality of your condition. You don’t believe; therefore, you are condemned. The problem is not that yout simply don’t accept the truth that is Jesus Christ, but that you know well who He is and you mock Him, you mock His people, sealing for yourself judgement against you. Shame on you. I pray that you will see the truth. What a blessing you would be to the church. There is no substitute for Christ.

      • says

        Faith. You have plenty of faith yourself; problem is it’s in things that are inherently faulty and destructive. What you see as being “free thought,” I understand to be the hopeless graspings of a mind devoid of good judgement.

        Do you really believe that you can live your entire life and never answer for it? That is gravely illogical! Did you give life to yourself? You want to have some laughs at a well-meaning man’s expense, calling him arrogant and somehow not have to pay for it. You want live with your lover, call her your partner, spitting in your creator’s face and raising a child to hate God. And you think it’s a game. I hope you can see the compassion that Christ has for you someday; He really loves you. So do Matt Moore and myself.

        • says

          But how did you hear about this God in the first place? Rumors spread easily among people–what if it’s just a rumor from thousands of years ago, given legitimacy by time?

          I love myself, and am truly enjoying my life although it is marred by the unfairness of people to each other, and my constant desire to help people understand each other better instead of fighting. I have plenty of people whose love means a lot to me. I like Zinnia too from what I can tell; I’d try to meet her if I lived in the same area. :)

          • says

            What if it is just a rumor? I haven’t lost anything. But if it IS true, you’ve lost everything. It’s like Pascal’s wager in a way; the fact is one of us is very wrong about all this.

            It’s good that you work for peace amongst people. Unfortunately for you, that alone will not save you. Your life must be changed by the resurrected Savior or you will suffer the judgement for your disobedience. You’re under condemnation right now, in fact. How comfortable would you be with standing before a holy God? Would you be counted worthy or would He deny knowing you? (If such a God exists, of course)

      • says

        Hey, hall of rage. I’m aware of the logical fallacies with Pascal’s wager. It’s not a good conversation piece which is why I just vaguely referenced it. My faith is real and I don’t need Pascal to see the truth of the Gospel. My own changed life, and the lives of countless others, are plenty proof for me. I hope you will see the gravity of the threats of judgment. And why did you not mention the reconciliation I suggested? Are you afraid that God may actually love you?

        • says

          I didn’t have anything to say to your stifling ideas of “love”. If there were a god out there who wanted to love me, I’d be happy for it to do so! Loving someone doesn’t give one control over them, you pompous dumbass. Speaking of which, your reasoning above is indeed “like Pascal’s Wager in a way”: it has exactly the same flaws.

          Enough religious hypotheticals. You’ve made surprisingly efficient demonstrations of circular logic and a variety of attempted emotional manipulation, in your comments to me. Combined, these illustrate the dangers of deciding that your way of finding a good life is the only right way, and then refusing to question your own self-righteousness in the slightest. (In your case, these ways appear to be unchallenged heteronormativity complete with absolute homophobia, and Christianity of the sort that has an abusive father figure for its god.) So I’ve got all the use I can out of this discussion. Cheers.

          • says

            Your largest problem in this tirade is the assumption that the Christian religion is about having a “good life.” It most assuredly is not. The point of Christianity is to walk in loving fellowship with a holy God which, naturally, leads to the truest of good lives; personal fulfillment, however, is not at all the aim for Christians. Someone said in an earlier comment that the ultimate good is to give glory to God and that is true.

            Onto the charge of self-righteousness: can you point me to anything I’ve said here that indicates I believe my righteousness comes from myself? You cannot. What righteousness I may exhibit in my life comes entirely from God changing my heart. Notice that God changes hearts, not behaviors. Your real malady goes well beyond the way you behave; it’s about what constitutes you as a person.

            Now, about your old “homophobia” standby…nobody is afraid of you. If I had any sort of aversion to you I would not bother myself with this conversation. Fact is, I love you dearly and would give you the shirt off my back if you needed it. It is that same love that motivates my preaching. No, I do not accept you as a homosexual but that does not mean I don’t love you. I don’t accept my uncle’s alcoholism but I don’t hate him. Homosexuals, by and large, are the most prideful of sinners which is why you get the most attention. You love the evil lifestyle you’re in because you’re blinded by it. I understand that fully. If I were gay (or ex-gay as the case may be) your argument would change a little. But because you view me as a red-blooded homo hater, you have no choice but to use those standard, petty slams that everyone has used since the 80s. You need a fresh perspective.

            Jesus Christ will change your life, guaranteed. Many people have this idea that they can choose the concept of “god” that best suits their lifestyle. Unfortunate as it is, God will not be changed to suit your comfort level. It’s a shame that you’re too lost to see that right now. And maybe you won’t be converted while reading these comments…then again, maybe someone else will. My job is to plant the seed.

            If you’re wondering, yes, I would tell you this in person; I’m not hiding behind the internet. Come, to the Dallas prise parade and I’ll be more than happy to share some truths with you.

            Also, thank you, Zinnia, for being a good sport about all this and allowing these comments to stay.

  10. Erica says

    Why are people so threatened by Matt Moore’s experience? Because it takes away their excuse to continue to sin? If Matt can be set free from sin and God is real and homosexuality is sin, then it makes them wrong and no one wants have to admit that they are wrong and sinful. Is it easier to mock than face the possibility that Matt may be right? Could it be possible that you are wrong? If you answer, no then can I call you arrogant. I keep hearing the phrase arrogant christian, but I think some of the comments sound pretty arrogant. Matt is not in any way being arrogant, I don’t get how anyone can say that. He is sharing his story. Doesn’t he have that right? He is experiencing a joy and a peace that so many desire. What is wrong with that?

    • says

      Well, there are all sorts of possibilities for what might happen after death. Since we can’t know that anything at all will happen, we might as well learn to be the strongest and best people we can be in this world. Why make ourselves unhappy just because we were raised to fear the concept of “sin”, or people are trying to make us afraid?

      As for what Matt’s doing, the “arrogance” applies to the thinking that one person alone can suffer greater “sins” than anyone else. Even if that one person is Jesus Christ. In this case it has nothing to do with Matt’s ex-gay stories.

      • says

        @Erica, well said, sister. God bless you :)

        As for you, hall-of-rage, what you’re describing is sort of a unitarian philosophy and that’s interesting to me. You’re partially correct, we really don’t know 100% of what the afterlife holds; however, what we do know is that this philosophy you hold is weak and full of holes. Why be unhappy? Why inconvenience ourselves to obey a holy God that will destroy us? Your argument is senseless.

        God hates sin and, to be frank, God hates you for committing the sin. The issue is that you are on the road straight to condemnation (you’re condemned already) and God has sent Christians to warn you. When we do, you people cal us judgmental and arrogant. How silly is that? Would you call a doctor zrrogant for treating your cancer? Or judgmental for giving you helpful advice? Silly.

        The gospel is one of reconciliation. God will take everything that stands between the two of you (the sin and condemnation) and it will be as though it never happened. It will be as though, you had never sinned against Him. Then, on top of that, He will empower and encourage you not to sin again. Jesus said “whoever sins is a slave to sin…..(but) whoever the Son sets free is free indeed.”

        What you need is not happiness or libertarian freedom; what you need is the freedom that Jesus Christ offers. Will you accept it?

        • says

          My other reply, addressing your question of “why not believe in God”, awaits moderation because it has two links (a video and a transcript). Meanwhile let me say: no matter how earnestly you hold your beliefs, you are still trying to spread them by making people afraid, instead of by demonstrating your own ability to love others. Consider that.

          Threats like these won’t work on me anymore–they won’t make me feel guilty, afraid, or unworthy. I hope they do not work on many others.

          • says

            This definitely is my love for you. When you say I’m lacking love, what you mean is that I lack tolerance. Love and tolerance are not the same. Wouldn’t you agree that true love is wholly intolerant toward dangerous behavior? I would hope you do. You are in danger and I am, warning you; thereby showing my love for you. I sincerely hope you can see that.

        • ginseng says

          Why is it a sin when two people love each other? Because god says so?
          God is very manipulative, isn’t he? “You either do what I say or you will be destroyed.” Is that really a choice at all? I don’t understand why people can’t see how abusive he is.

          • says

            Hi, Ginseng. Hope all is well in your world. I’d like to address what you’ve said here. First, you’ve left out some pertinent information…namely, that God created you. He formed you and says you are “fearfully and wonderfully made.” The problem is that you’ve rebelled against Him, your creator.

            It isn’t like you existed here on the planet then God showed up and started making demands. He has always existed and YOU are the stranger in HIS midst, not the other way around. Truth is, He existed then YOU showed up and demanded your independence. Therein lays the problem, Ginseng. He wants you to be reconciled to Him and you refuse. He would never ask you to forsake something that is good for you and call it sin, but here’s the fact: homosexuality is not good for, you. Some of the most deluded people I’ve ever known were homosexuals. It’s no coincidence.

  11. Trina says

    Leaving aside the greater question of God’s existence, I must ask why you think that because I am supposedly created by God, he therefore has the right to control my life, to choose life or death for me.

    As far as God’s love goes: My parents love me. They want me to be happy. When I was a child they provided for me. When I was naughty they punished me, and when I told them I hated them, they were (I assume) hurt, but they refrained from leaping to God’s answer: eternal damnation/exile/whatever definition of ‘hell’ is popular this week.

    I feel sad for you, as I can only assume that you have never experienced the genuine love of a parent/friend/partner if you can really compare the supposed love of God to that of a real person and have God come out the winner.

    Homosexuality is no worse for you than heterosexuality.
    They’re sexual and/or romantic orientations, not diseases.

    • says

      What you have described as love from your parents is, in fact, not love at all. It’s blind, hateful tolerance…”Boy, I sure would like to see Trina happy even if it costs her soul.” Shame on them for such lax attitudes. Raising a child to hate God is NOT love. Your parents did not create you; sure, they mixed their DNA but they did not painstakingly form you even to the hairs on your head. They have no right (since we’re talking about rights) to allow a child such libertarian freedom as to deny the existence of Almighty God and spit in His face by engaging in evil and calling it good.

      You don’t have the slightest idea of what love is, clearly. The primary issue here is not sexual orientation but allegiance. You worship indulgence, serving the created being rather than the creator; there’s the problem. You are in bondage, a slave to every whim of your mind and every move of culture. Jesus Christ came to set you free from that slavery. You will not see it until you’re no longer afraid of what you’ll find. Your words may look good to the other condemned souls on forums like these but, as someone who once lived as selfishly as you do, I know the truth about Trina…even if Trina doesn’t.

    • Dee says

      I can personally tell you and I’m sure MANY, MANY, MANY Christian believers would as well, that there is no human love, no human relationship that can compare to the intimate, personal, true relationship with my creator that is made possible by Jesus Christ. I have discovered that true fulfillment, true satisfaction, true contentment and true peace have come only through letting my guard down and letting God speak love, mercy, grace, truth and true acceptance into my life. He satisfies my soul as with the richest of foods. Any human relationship is designed to be a nice dessert after the feast that God provides for those who seek and find Him. Choosing flawed humans and their version of love over God’s is foolish to those who are His, but since these things are spiritually discerned, those who aren’t His will never understand and it will remain foolishness to them until they condemn themselves because their hearts are hard and they are arrogant in their unbelief. God does not wish any to perish and gives opportunity after opportunity after opportunity for belief to take hold in someone’s life. If you reject Him, you condemn yourself as his desire is to save you. His ‘rules’ are to protect us from ourselves, not to carve out the ‘bad ones’ and condemn them. Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners, right? He came for those who are sick. He receives those who acknowledge that they are sick and need help. If you don’t feel you need his help, then God help you.

  12. Trina says

    Okay, so clearly my guess was right, which is kinda sad for you.

    My parents didn’t raise me to hate God- I can’t hate that which does not exist.

    So when God “painstakingly formed” me- why did he form me with left ventricular hypertrophy, and a 50% increased chance of sudden cardiac death? Why did he form me with longsightedness?

    My sin? Original sin? How can I be both fearfully and wonderfully made- and afflicted by original sin?

    Why you think that because I am supposedly created by God, he therefore has the right to control my life, to choose life or death for me?

    My parents are my only real creators (as opposed to this vicious imaginary friend you are trying to foist on me) and they don’t have the right to kill me. Nor the will, unlike this supposed all-loving creator.

    If you really want me to get an invisible friend like yours, rather than try to scare me with spooky fairytales, offer me some evidence.

    Of course, even if you could prove to me that God exists (and better men and women than you have tried!) you’d then have to convince me he/she/it was worthy of reverence.
    The character of god in the Bible is not one worthy of reverence.

    “The primary issue here is not sexual orientation but allegiance. You worship indulgence, serving the created being rather than the creator; there’s the problem. You are in bondage, a slave to every whim of your mind and every move of culture. Jesus Christ came to set you free from that slavery.”

    Jesus Christ came to free me from the slavery of my own mind, and…make me a slave for God?

    As appealing as grovelling at the feet of some eternal overlord sounds, I’m going to have to pass.

  13. Trina says

    Okay, so clearly my guess was right, which is kinda sad for you.

    My parents didn’t raise me to hate God- I can’t hate that which does not exist.

    So when God “painstakingly formed” me- why did he form me with left ventricular hypertrophy, and a 50% increased chance of sudden cardiac death? Why did he form me with longsightedness?

    My sin? Original sin? How can I be both fearfully and wonderfully made- and afflicted by original sin?

    Why you think that because I am supposedly created by God, he therefore has the right to control my life, to choose life or death for me?

    My parents are my only real creators (as opposed to this vicious imaginary friend you are trying to foist on me) and they don’t have the right to kill me. Nor the will, unlike this supposed all-loving creator.

    If you really want me to get an invisible friend like yours, rather than try to scare me with spooky fairytales, offer me some evidence.

    Of course, even if you could prove to me that God exists (and better men and women than you have tried!) you’d then have to convince me he/she/it was worthy of reverence.
    The character of god in the Bible is not one worthy of reverence.

    “The primary issue here is not sexual orientation but allegiance. You worship indulgence, serving the created being rather than the creator; there’s the problem. You are in bondage, a slave to every whim of your mind and every move of culture. Jesus Christ came to set you free from that slavery.”

    Jesus Christ came to free me from the slavery of my own mind, and…make me a slave for God?

    As appealing as grovelling at the feet of some eternal overlord sounds, I’m going to have to pass.

  14. says

    Well, Trina, I was born with heart defects as well. Two open heart surgeries later, I’m still here to tell you that I am indeed fearfully and wonderfully made. In addition to the heart trouble, I have double astigmatism and Tourette’s Syndrome. Still, I do not doubt who my maker is and, in my Christian thought, the sole purpose of these medical issues is to give glory to God by identifying with people like you in those ways.

    Now, I’ve known love from plenty human sources and found them all lacking, even my parents’ love as it is imperfect. God’s love is perfect, never lacking, full of wisdom and compassion. Have you known that kind of love? You obviously have not.

    Yes, Christ came to enslave you to righteousness. That’s the only way you’ll ever be truly free. Hard to comprehend? Sure, but when you experience it…

    I’m certain you’ve never studied the Bible; you only know what you’ve been told by people willing to sacrifice your well-being to satisfy their various agendas (i.e. Zinnia Jones, et al). Therefore, you cannot reasonably conclude that God is not worthy of reverence.

    Original Sin is a concept adopted by the Roman Catholic Church, by way of the venerable St Augustine. Not all Christians buy it; I’m one that doesn’t. God’s Bible says He made you “upright” but you chose to wage war against Him in your rebellion (Ecclesiastes 7:29). You are responsible for your own sin. God did not create you being guilty by default for another man’s evil and He fully expects you to repent of yours, not Adam’s. Truly Original Sin has been a stumbling block in evangelism for 700 years. I’ll be glad to see this doctrine go.

    Long story short, you are responsible to my “imaginary friend” and He will take very real vengeance on you if you don’t listen. See, I wasn’t always a Christian; I was a “free thinker” for a while myself and was responsible for deconverting many people from the faith. God opened my eyes, though, and I’m so grateful that He did. Jesus Christ saved my life.

  15. Trina says

    So god gave you a dicky heart so you could empathize with my dicky heart.
    Instead of just making us fearfully and wonderfully.
    Makes sense :S

    Your certainty about me is amusing. In actual fact I have read the Bible- Several times. It’s not really such a long book as to make it impossible. I skimmed the endless genealogies though, I must admit.
    I once looked for God, when I was younger and thought a comforting lie would be better than the truth.
    I’ve since worked out that the world is pretty awesome, awe inspiring, all on its own. The addition of a bronze age sky daddy with narcissistic personality disorder is superfluous.

    It is often said, here and elsewhere, that the easiest way to ‘make’ someone an atheist is to get them to read the bible. It’s true, though the bible is a hard slog at times- but after god massacres or orders the massacre of his third or fourth civilization you start to get used to it.

    You try to tell me homosexuality is a sin- right now I’m wearing cotton and woolen clothes- why not condemn me for that instead?

    • says

      Reading the Bible and studying it are different things and my certainty still stands. The fact that you believe blended fabrics are a good case against New Testament Christianity attests to that certainty.

      Interestingly, God is not done destroying civilizations. You ought to join me in prayer that ours is one He skips over. I’m telling you, we’re not far from destruction.

      What do you mean you “looked for God?” How can you look for Him? I guarantee you won’t find Him by looking. God is pursuing YOU…see how different a concept that is? A god that pursues us! Wow…and you would never see Him because you love what He hates and it blinds you to these simple truths.

  16. Trina says

    Oh I see. Don’t bother addressing any of my points, just issue more threats. That’s cool. You go on being afraid of your invisible friend, and I guess I’ll keep waiting for some evidence that he exists outside of your imagination.

    Matthew 7:7 to 11 seems to disagree with your assertion, but don’t worry, I know you have an explanation. And I’m sure your interpretation of the Bible is the correct one- after all, you believe it!

    • says

      I think I sufficiently addressed your points, Trina. As for your Bible reference: That passage is directed specifically to disciples of Christ. It cannot be applied to the general “seeker.” In fact, if you’ll read it more closdly you’ll see that the promises in the passage are contingent upon evangelism. In other words, if you’re not evangelizing, these promises do not apply to you. Again, your average seeker isn’t able to seek and subsequently find, nor can he/she knock and the door subsequently be opened. Those are reserved solely for disciples.

      • Trina says

        Matthew 7:28: When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29 because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

        Now I realize this is somewhat contradictory with Matthew 5, where it states he began to teach his disciples, but I’m not the one trying to defend the bible!

        • Trina says

          Also, I don’t recall ever saying wearing blended fabrics was a case against NT Christianity.

          I simply think that upbraiding someone for their homosexuality and not their non compliance with other biblical laws is silly.

          The only anti homosexual passages in the NT, as I can recall at this moment, come from Paul. And they are vague in the extreme. Are you a Pauline or a Christian? Why not admit your bias is based on homophobia rather than Christ’s teachings?

          Christ’s teachings which apparently only apply to the people God is chasing.

          • Lee says

            Trina, Cody is right in what he says.

            “I simply think that upbraiding someone for their homosexuality and not their non compliance with other biblical laws is silly.”

            right! but Cody is saying that this sin comes from the larger part of rebellion to biblical commands. Stop seeing it as an attack personally as homosexuality. if the topic had been lying or adultery, it may not get as much attention, but you can guarantee it still is a sin nonetheless.

            “The only anti homosexual passages in the NT, as I can recall at this moment, come from Paul. And they are vague in the extreme. Are you a Pauline or a Christian? Why not admit your bias is based on homophobia rather than Christ’s teachings?”

            That’s correct. Romans 1 is where your referring to. But if you cross-reference it with Matthew 19:4 where Jesus is explaining conditions of divorce then you can understand that God had ONE intention only! and if you further cross-reference it with the Levitcal Law, then there is almost no doubt that these ‘anti-homosexual passages’ as you call them, are valid within the Gospel dispensation. You see Trina, God does not change. Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. Simply put, He was the same 2000 yrs ago, He IS the same now and He’ll always be the same forever, long after you and I are gone from the Earth. And thus, if we understand that Christ and God the Father are one, then there can be no mistake that Jesus need not say that homosexuality is a sin. Remember he was a Jew, so he would have to uphold His own law!

            The Christian/Pauline concept came from scholars who noticed Paul commanding believers to be his disciples. Right, all this means is to take NOTE of Paul’s valid experience with Christ and the commission that was set before him. You see Trina, God used Paul to write a chunk of the NT, so really we are disciples of the Words written therein, not Paul. Since Paul was a Christian, then its safe to say you could count on his various letters in the NT since they were God-breathed. does this make sense :)

            God bless

    • Lee says

      Trina

      >>>So eating shellfish is still out then?

      Meaning??? Eating shellfish would have been a requirment to obey the Law from the Israelites. Now understand this, that the Old Testament and New Testament carries to overarching themes; With the OT its the Law and the NT, it’s Christ and HIS PERFECT WORK OF CARRYING THE LAW, WHICH MEANS WE DON’T HAVE TO. The Law means the moral law of God and His commands, but that does not mean we start to extract what we like in terms of what we can and can’t obey. Remembver, Christ came to fulfill the demands of the Law, and since our sinful nature is excerbated by the our attempts to obey perfetcly, we need someone who can perfectly obey God to a T with an obedient heart. That person was Jesus. Go back and read the context surrounding the command not to eat shellfish. you can be sure that God’s commands still stand with regards to homosexuality. He’s not going to suddenly change His mind on certain absolutes like sexuality because of cultural times. Again, Jesus affirmed this. Also, Paul has this very same argument where some Jewish Christians argued over the use of circumcision in the church while they accused Gentile Christians of not doing so. Put simply, our affirmation of what we do obey and don’t is measured by Jesus fulfilling all the LAW, as well as salvation being in Jesus + nothing.

    • Cody Marsh says

      Consider this: certain cultural laws, like dietary restrictions, have been done away with (Mark 7; Acts 10) because there is now no separation of ethnic people groups. The cultural mitzvahs were used by God to distinguish the Israelites amongst the heathen nations, but what Christ has done, He has done for all people. It’s important to note that God has not made all sex clean, as you are suggesting; Long hair? Sure. Shellfish and pork? Absolutely. Sexual immorality? Negative…still dirty.

      @Lee,

      Well said, brother.

  17. Lee says

    >>>The cultural mitzvahs were used by God to distinguish the Israelites amongst the heathen nations, but what Christ has done, He has done for all people. It’s important to note that God has not made all sex clean, as you are suggesting; Long hair? Sure. Shellfish and pork? Absolutely. Sexual immorality? Negative…still dirty.

    exactly!

  18. Trina says

    Well that was a little incomprehensible. I still don’t see how you differentiate between rules that you have to follow and ones that you don’t.

    To me, the above responses suggest that because it is a rule surrounding sex, it doesn’t change with time, unlike dietary or garment rules.

    Is that accurate?
    How do you come to that conclusion? Where does Jesus say ‘follow the rules surrounding sex, but not the ones surrounding food’.

    • Cody Marsh says

      Trina,

      Sorry my earlier response was “incomprehensible.” I’ll take another stab at it.

      First and foremost, for the sake of argument, agree with me that Jesus is Almighty God. Having established Him as such, let’s look at a couple things. As I mentioned, certain aspects of law that were given to Moses over the years in the desert are strictly cultural prohibitions meant to separate the Israelites from the heathen. An example being the prohibition on cutting hair or shaving faces. This was a sort of marker making clear the difference between the Israelites and , say for instance, the Chaeldeans.

      So let’s go now to Exodus 20:14, “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” The Hebrew word for “adultery” here transliterated “na’aph.” It can mean adultery as we understand it today (affairs) or, in the Hebrew figurative traditions, it can (and probably does) mean indulging in any form of sexual immorality including, interestingly enough, idol worship. If this is true, idol worship is especially heinous to God as it receives three whole commandments all to itself!

      Ok, I’m sure you’re wondering how this tangent applies to you…well, Trina, ALL sin is idol worship and, according to Romans 1, homosexuality is especially idolatrous; so much so that God is said to have given them (homosexual idol worshipers) over to their destitute minds. If you’ll recall one of our first communications, I mentioned that you are a slave to every whim of your flesh and every move of culture because you love your sin.

      If I follow Lee’s logic of cross-referencing Exodus 20:14, Romans 1 and Jesus’ teachings on marraige, it is evident that He has upheld the Old Covenant views on human sexuality: that is man with woman. Period.

      Aldo, I would like to say that the NT claims that Jesus said many more things; so many that no book could contain them. What is preserved for us is all that we need to make informed decisions about nature of Christ’s teachings. And, if Paul was really inspired by the Holy Spirit, then every word that he wrote is truly the voice of, Jesus Crist. That said, we can trust what Paul has wrtten to be a legitimate authority upon which to build a foundational understanding of God’s dotrine

  19. Lee says

    When all is said and done Trina, you have to lay it down for Jesus. He really is worthy! What else is there to live for???? tell me! Give me something to live and die for eternally except the creator Himself. Even now as I write this, I be honest I am double-minded and half-hearted but I KNOW that there simply is nothing else! All is fading away…this world and its occupations, yes its a fact of life to do things but keep your head lookign up to Him. If not Him, then nothing else! simple! And by the way, your talking to someone who struggles with homosexuality. I’m 22 and Im going thru so much but I must resolve to give God an answer, a yes or no! thats what he wants from you. Not sitting on the fence!

  20. Trina says

    Lee, you have made me sad. I’m sorry you feel like you are ‘struggling’ with homosexuality.
    I hope one day you won’t feel like the way you were born is a burden to carry.

    The way you interpret the Bible, and those verses, is not the only way they can be interpreted.

    • Lee says

      Trina,

      >>>Lee, you have made me sad. I’m sorry you feel like you are ‘struggling’ with homosexuality. I hope one day you won’t feel like the way you were born is a burden to carry.

      Don’t feel sad Trina. It’s the truth though. We all struggle with some type of sin but we must lay hold of God and trust in Jesus Christ. I know you think this sexual behaviour is normal thats why you encourage. Mark my words, the world will soon find a way to legalize pedaphilia, then you’ll start feeling sorry for people ‘struggling’ with that type of sexual behaviour.

      >>>>The way you interpret the Bible, and those verses, is not the only way they can be interpreted.

      Right ok, sicne you became the arbiter of truth then please, i pray, interpret the verses for me. And remember, the key to interpret them is to not bring outside sources. you MUST use other scripture references to interpret xcripture. That is the only way you’ll get the answer. So when you done that, come back and tell me what the answer is….I’m waiting for it.

  21. Trina says

    “Don’t feel sad Trina. It’s the truth though. We all struggle with some type of sin but we must lay hold of God and trust in Jesus Christ. I know you think this sexual behaviour is normal thats why you encourage. Mark my words, the world will soon find a way to legalize pedaphilia, then you’ll start feeling sorry for people ‘struggling’ with that type of sexual behaviour.”

    Love, between two consenting adults is not wrong. Key word ‘adults’.

    I’m trying to have this discussion with you because I didn’t think you were trolling, I thought you were genuinely here out of concern for your fellow human beings (although I feel that concern is misguided.)

    “Right ok, sicne you became the arbiter of truth then please, i pray, interpret the verses for me. And remember, the key to interpret them is to not bring outside sources. you MUST use other scripture references to interpret scripture. That is the only way you’ll get the answer. So when you done that, come back and tell me what the answer is….I’m waiting for it.”

    I’m not the arbiter of truth nor have I ever claimed to be- I’m simply suggesting that perhaps there is a different way of looking at the contentious verses.

    For example the passages in Leviticus are certainly about idol worship- why then do you think they stretch to include loving, consensual, monogamous gay relationships?

    I don’t want to write an essay here, and no doubt it would mean little to you coming from an atheist, so I’ve checked out some sites for you that are Christian, and gay positive.

    “The Church (and individual Christians) certainly aren’t immune from making mistakes — horrible ones, at times. In the past, we’ve misused the Holy Scriptures to defend — and even promote — some indefensible beliefs and actions.

    There was a time when most Christians believed slavery was the will of God. There was a time when most Christians believed women should not be allowed to vote. There was a time when most Christians believed that interracial marriage was wrong. Each position was elaborately supported with biblical arguments — and each position, we can now clearly see, was dead wrong.

    We now understand that cultural prejudice was at work shaping the way these Christians read the Bible.”

    That’s from http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/

    Just a different perspective for you. Scriptural based, with some history as context. Check it out.

    • Cody Marsh says

      Trina,

      Those passages in Leviticus that reference “fornication” are really addressing idolatry, specifically that of the fertility cults. The passages referencing homosexuality, however, are about just that. Those “gay Christians” you gave Lee a link to are no Christians at all. They love sin and walk in darkness, calling God a liar and making up their own rules for living. “There is a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are death.”

      @Lee, you’re right about Trina. She believes her way of life is normal and that is why she encourages it. She calls evil things good and good things evil. She will not respond to the Gospel and is headed for destruction. Don’t go with her. Don’t compromise what you know to be true by the testimony of the Sprit to drink from broken cisterns that cannot hold water. I know you’re struggle. God will smile on you for holding out. Always remember, though, that the only way He will deliver you is if it is for His glory alone. He won’t share His glory with you.

      • Lee says

        >>>>Lee, you’re right about Trina. She believes her way of life is normal and that is why she encourages it. She calls evil things good and good things evil. She will not respond to the Gospel and is headed for destruction. Don’t go with her. Don’t compromise what you know to be true by the testimony of the Sprit to drink from broken cisterns that cannot hold water. I know you’re struggle. God will smile on you for holding out. Always remember, though, that the only way He will deliver you is if it is for His glory alone. He won’t share His glory with you.

        hmmm. Trina, there was a time that I didnt want to believe what sin was because…well because I didn’t. and even now, sometimes I struggle and have my moments but it is God who, in His mercy, who keeps me in CHECK lest i be left to my own devices. Remeber Trina, Cody and I are NOT BETTER than you. God could have easily left us in yours (and many othersa state) not to see Gospel truth. God will open up your eyes but if you close it, there reamins an expecttion for judgement only! I know this sounds harsh but I speak this for MYSELF especailly because I know I am a double-minded person who has remnants of sinful desires and outburst of rebellion towards God. I pray He truly does a work in me for His glory, like Cody says, and not for me. Because I can tell you right now, if He doesn’t then better to not have been born. I know He’ll come get you Trina because God IS merciful and His patience is towards you that you may UNDERSTAND life,reality and the fact that you will and I, Cody, will give an account. And in a sense, Cody and I, are more accountable because we named the name of Christ so you have to carry that mantle faithfully and biblically. It is very hard but Im scared but I know I have to run to Christ. You, I Cody need Him. He is Saviour and Lord. Do not mock Him!

  22. Lee says

    Trina,

    >>>Love, between two consenting adults is not wrong. Key word ‘adults’.

    Well that may be ones view but we must go with what scripture ultimately says, even if we don’t like it, because at bthe end of the day, God knows what best for us. No I don’t mean do things blindly without thinking but we need to connect the dots carefully and you can clearly see the commandments what they say.

    >>>I’m trying to have this discussion with you because I didn’t think you were trolling, I thought you were genuinely here out of concern for your fellow human beings (although I feel that concern is misguided.)

    Trina, I’m not trolling. When I see error, I feel to correct it. It would be UNloving of me to keep my mouth shut out of fear of men and regard the consequences of mens doing than God. I saw this blog as I was typing something else regarding Matt Moore, and I was disgusted at your mocking and scorning…on the judgement, trust me with MY LIFE, you will not be doing that. I am here out of concern. It is only misguided in your view because my belief’s are ‘archaic’, ‘outdated’ and ‘stupid.’

    >>>I’m not the arbiter of truth nor have I ever claimed to be- I’m simply suggesting that perhaps there is a different way of looking at the contentious verses.

    hmmm, well God does not contradict Himself. If we assume He is all knwoing e.t.c. then we CAN safely say He communicates things CLEARLY and without misunderstanding. Things is Trina, The BIBLE is unlike any other book. the reason you don’t undrstand it is because it is of a supernatural origin and you need the Holy Spirit to illumine your eyes. So I ask you, if you are SINCERE about seeking truth, truth will come get you, but if you don’t want it, your eyes will close up, even if the truth is staring you in the face. So ask God to give you truth and be urgent and desperate about it!

    >>>For example the passages in Leviticus are certainly about idol worship- why then do you think they stretch to include loving, consensual, monogamous gay relationships?

    Cody already explained that when God gave commandments to Israel, He made them distinct from other peoples ans nations by showing He is the One True God Creator. So that means NOTHING, should ever take the place of that Creator. So sex and creation should not be switched around to take the place of the creator because you have gone overboard into idolatry. What is the definition of idolatry? It means the worship of an object, a thing, hobby, or ‘something’ in place of God. Put simply, you worship whom you fear the most and are concerned about the most. ‘worship’ alludes to the sense that you are consumed by something, in this case, Romans 1 talks of homosexuals being consumed with one another. That is inordinate affection. Also can be the same case for heterosexuality but the point Im making is that with homosexuality, it is switching the Creator’s desire and wishes for what YOU want, rather than what He tells YOU is RIGHT! Anyone can fall into idolatry, so it is not a homosexual issue, it is HEART issue that is seen in the type of LIFE you live, i.e. lifestyle!

    This is what the Levitical Laws stretch into.

    >>>I don’t want to write an essay here, and no doubt it would mean little to you coming from an atheist, so I’ve checked out some sites for you that are Christian, and gay positive.

    Me too im not in for writing an essay lol, but listen it means ALOT to me trying to get you to understand God and the Bible. Just remember Trina that I’ve been there and done that. I KNOW the mindset that people have that is not of Christ, so at one point I would have thought like you but it is God that RENEWS ones mind by His truth, which is His Word.

    >>>>The Church (and individual Christians) certainly aren’t immune from making mistakes — horrible ones, at times. In the past, we’ve misused the Holy Scriptures to defend — and even promote — some indefensible beliefs and actions.

    There was a time when most Christians believed slavery was the will of God. There was a time when most Christians believed women should not be allowed to vote. There was a time when most Christians believed that interracial marriage was wrong. Each position was elaborately supported with biblical arguments — and each position, we can now clearly see, was dead wrong.

    We now understand that cultural prejudice was at work shaping the way these Christians read the Bible.”

    That is true :( but it is God’s enemy, satanm that distorts God’s truth and makes the whole camp of God seem false. The MOST important thing to distinguish in reading teh bible is context and when a commandment is a commandment to the reader of any age or whether it was specifically to Israel. This is called Biblical heumernetics. it is the study of How to studyt eh bible. Like some commandments to Israel may not apply to us, YES, but with sexuality, that is Upheld throughout the NT as Jesus mentions as cited above in Cody and mines previous posts. Again God will illuminate for you…

    >>>Just a different perspective for you. Scriptural based, with some history as context. Check it out.

    I appreciate you responding still…

  23. Trina says

    I’m sorry but all that sounded like was “the devil may have lead us astray over race, over slavery, over the rights of women, but it’s not possible that we are wrong about homosexuality because…well because.”

    Jesus does not mention homosexuality. He mentions celibacy, he mentions adultery, he mentions monogamy. No mentions of homosexuality.

    homosexuality does not equal adultery.

    • Cody Marsh says

      Trina,

      Jesus DOES mention homosexuality…in Leviticus. As for the New Testament, what we have recorded of Jesus is somewhat of a q&a session. The Jewish teachers asked the Lord questions about the law in an attempt to trap Him as a heretic. There was no doubt in their minds as to the sinfulness of homosexuality; thus, it’s not recorded that they asked Him. It’s probable, though, that they DID ask Him, as the Gospels are not a complete record of His teachings. You’re right to bring up what Christ did NOT explicitly mention, but gravely wrong to assume He approves of it. For instance, Jesus never argued against raping children. Does that make it ok? Are you now going to rape children? By your logic, you would have to agree that Jesus’ silence on it means it is permissible under the New Covenant.

      Facts are facts. God destroys sinners. Homosexuals are sinners. Thus, homosexuals are destroyed by God. Sorry for your bad luck, but all you have to look forward to is the wrath of the Almighty in this life and when you die. God will have His vengeance on you because you have sinned against Him and done the things that He hates. You label his children as superstitiously afraid of the “bronze age sky daddy” and you openly deny Him, even pat yourself on the back for it. For all your knowledge you will be turn apart by the God of the universe (see Psalm 5:5). But that’s not the whole story. Jesus Christ took the wrath of God upon Himself 2,000 years ago so that, if you will turn from your sin and be baptized into His family, you will receive forgiveness of sins. The Bible says “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” You ought to get good and terrified of the God you have mocked. There is only one chance for you (despite what your godless parents raised you to believe), and that chance is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. I pray you will see the truth, because I don’t want you skip ignorantly and happily to your destruction.

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