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Thunderf00t: Stealing people’s private information is a major violation

All emails sent to this list are confidential and private. Revealing information contained in any email sent to the list to anyone not on the list without permission of the author is strictly prohibited.

I have tried to stay as far away from this Thunderf00t drama as possible.  Unfortunately, Thunderf00t’s vendetta against PZ Myers and feminism at large has now turned into an all out personal attack against anyone who has anything to do with FtB.

Thunderf00t has hacked, repeatedly, into the FtB private emails, stolen them, and forwarded private, confidential information to other people.  He is using this to hurt people.  Some of the bloggers here do so anonymously for reasons of personal safety and his actions have threatened their anonymity and the safety of themselves and their loved ones.

I am absolutely sick over this.  The information he has about me is not nearly as worrisome as the information he has about other people.  I blog as myself, after all, and though there are things I said under the protection of confidentiality that I would vastly prefer not to be brought up, I can live if they are.  The information he has about other people, however, and the things he has done to try to hurt them by forwarding information to others and, after telling people he has backchannel information, lying about what has been said… that worries me a lot.

I didn’t really care about Thunderf00t before this.  It is clear now that he is a cruel man out to destroy anyone he thinks he can, either out of spite or out of a total disregard for collateral damage in his hatred for PZ.  There are not words for how violated I feel, how heartsick I am for those who are worried about personal details being shared, and how grotesque Thunderf00t’s behavior is.

He will undoubtedly crow about how clever and weaselly he is, but just remember that he has hurt many people and deeply damaged relationships and trust.  He has done something that I would not wish on my worst enemies and he has done it, apparently, just to be mean.  I could not be more disappointed that he is an “ally” in the atheist movement and, even worse, that there are those who will surely laugh at his cruelty along with him.

Mostly, I am just sad.

Comments

  1. mandrellian says

    Further evidence that the spiteful, childish drama tornado known as Thunderfoot is indeed no great loss to FTB or the movement at large.

    I hope this doesn’t turn any uglier for you guys.

  2. Ashley F. Miller says

    I wish I could believe that not getting uglier was a possibility. I also wish I could stand between him and the people who are legitimately terrified of retaliation.

  3. says

    If what you allege here and what I see written about TF gaining access to a closed listserv at Natalie’s is true, then he has broken the law. This kind of thing is illegal. Since the guy has obviously gone totally off the rails, the people most threatened by this IRL may want to get immediate legal advice.

  4. says

    Sorry to hear that it’s come to this for some of you guys. One must wonder what TF’s employer would think if they knew that one of their staff illegally breaks into network mailing lists to steal private information and conversations. But that would be bullying, right.

  5. scribe999 says

    Remarkably I recall him dealing with such an issue himself when another youtuber attempted to track down his personal information. Sad indeed.

  6. Ashley F. Miller says

    I have never interacted with him. I guess he’s just trying to hurt PZ, and people like me are just collateral damage. I am so disturbed that he could be so indifferent to the suffering of all the other people here.

  7. Daniel Schealler says

    The weird thing is that PZ was right there in the video where Tf00t announces his real name to spite DawahFilms.

  8. Aliasalpha says

    Gross violation of the law, data security, privacy & common decency. It makes him seem like a petulant, childish, arrogant, selfish fuckwit who places his own ego over the basic rights of other people.

    Or to put it another way, he’s acting like god.

  9. Goonsberry says

    This seems over the top, and out of proportion. “He has done something that I would not wish on my worst enemies.” Come on seriously? That’s too much.

  10. says

    20+ years in IT makes me a little biased, but having seen the after-effects of violations of privacy like this more than once…

    I’d say that you wouldn’t wish a potentially-unending series of unintended consequences (or just the constant background fear of them) on your worst enemy unless you were pretty damn sick.

    Ashley, FWIW I believe that the tone of your post was remarkably even considering the circumstances.

  11. eigenperson says

    Are you sure this is a good thing to discuss publicly (especially with comments enabled)? It seems increasingly likely that litigation will happen, and there is a reason that lawyers often insist that their clients not discuss any pending litigation.

  12. says

    Goonsberry,

    Is this really how you wish to contribute to this discussion? By doing a bit of feeble tone trolling? What Tfoot has done is horrible and potentially puts people in danger. Real life danger.

  13. says

    Yeah, that’s the first thing I thought when I saw ZJ’s post – but three posts at once (this one, Natalie Reed’s, and ZJ’s) – it’s definitely out of the bag now. ._.

  14. says

    Notice this is kept in very vague terms. Nothing about what he leaked to who. Keeping totally silent about this would be another form of making victims shut up about the way they were victimized.

  15. says

    I want to offer concrete support, but since I live in California and you’re over in South Carolina, the best I can do is this: If any of your projects (present or future) could use an editor, a graphic artist, or a typesetter, please feel free to get in touch when you’re looking for the person to do that.

  16. joel says

    Aliasalpha at 4

    I think you are mistaken in your view of children, “childish” does not belong in this list! It is not fair to children to use them for purposes of derision.

    “It makes him seem like a petulant, childish, arrogant, selfish fuckwit who places his own ego over the basic rights of other people.”

  17. sc_16435d844b23cb32655f62e313476b9f says

    This is some of the most childish, over the top bullshit I’ve ever read on a blog that presumably wishes to be taken seriously. lol

  18. Aaron says

    As someone that used to enjoy watching TF’s youtube videos AND read PZ’s blog, I have a lot of cognitive dissonance about the two of them fighting like this. (I only really know about it because I follow PZ on twitter; but I stopped following TF because his videos stopped being informative and became more about propaganda :/ )

    I wish they would find some sort of stability and stop fighting. I really don’t care who started it, it’s just not helpful for a minority group to have so much in-fighting. (If TF really is anti-feminism, then I will be siding AGAINST him on that issue, but I still hope that this matter can be resolved otherwise. :( )

  19. HP says

    Back around the 2004 elections, there was an article that briefly gained some traction online and then sort of got forgotten. IIRC, there was pollster who had identified a particular demographic he called the “Fuck-You Boys.” Fuck-You Boys are politically active young middle-class white males, whose political activism isn’t driven by any deep convictions, but by the desire to piss people off and stir up shit. By themselves, the FU Boys lack the numbers and conviction to drive political movements, but if they glom onto an existing movement that they think will “tweak the squares,” they can tip elections and change the political landscape. It was the FU Boys, for example, who elected both Jesse Ventura and Arnold Schwarzenneger (despite their obvious political differences), and without the FU Boys, the 2000 election would never have been close enough to steal.

    But the Fuck-You Boys have no consistent ideology or purpose. They leech off of existing political movements and push outrageousness for its own sake.

    For obvious reasons, the nascent New Atheist movement was very attractive to anyone who lives to stir up shit.

    Anyway, I always found the Fuck-You Boys to be a useful concept for understanding the political landscape, and once you grasp the concept, it’s really easy to spot an FU Boy in the wild.

    Which is a long-winded way of saying that I was astonished when Thunderfoot was invited to join FTB in the first place. I’d seen a few of his YouTube videos, and viewed through the lens of FU-Boy demographics, I thought it was obvious where he was coming from.

  20. says

    They aren’t fighting. TF has allegedly hacked the listserv and disseminated confidential information to third parties. PZ said what he had to say and has been almost entirely silent on the subject until this new information came to light. Where’s the fighting that PZ has any ability to stop?

  21. Dunc says

    That’s a very interesting and astute observation. I’d never thought of it in exactly those terms, but now you mention it, I know exactly what you mean.

  22. says

    I really don’t care who started it,

    The eternal cry of they who cannot be arsed to distinguish between aggressor and victim; i.e., the bully’s ally.

    it’s just not helpful for a minority group to have so much in-fighting.

    Concern troll is concerned.

    (If TF really is anti-feminism, then I will be siding AGAINST him on that issue, but I still hope that this matter can be resolved otherwise. :))

    If you haven’t figured out yet that he’s antifeminist, you haven’t been paying attention. And your passive-aggressive smiley gives the impression that you don’t give that much of a fuck.

  23. Aaron says

    The eternal cry of they who cannot be arsed to distinguish between aggressor and victim; i.e., the bully’s ally.

    If TF really did HAX0R ALL THE DATA as alleged by this article and the ref’d article, then this is bullshit and should be addressed.

    My original point was more in reference to the general acrimony among PZ and TF. PZ is hardly a hapless victim — he is quite good with both making arguments and dealing with trolls of all varieties; dealing with someone who breaks laws is something else entirely.

    Also – I feel I am being taken out of context by someone who is WAY oversensitive; I just met you and you’re acting crazy, so take a beta blocker maybe?

    (If TF really is anti-feminism, then I will be siding AGAINST him on that issue, but I still hope that this matter can be resolved otherwise.)

    If you haven’t figured out yet that he’s antifeminist, you haven’t been paying attention.

    Since it’s becoming clear you did not fully read (and digest, as brief as it was) my original post before jumping down my throat — I’ll reiterate: “I stopped following TF because his videos stopped being informative and became more about propaganda” — I enjoyed his “Problems with creationism” (or whatever it was called) series back in the day, up until his videos just waxed poetic about science and atheism in general, without any real point, which is when I unsubscribed. I have no modern context for anything he’s said since then.

    And your passive-aggressive smiley gives the impression that you don’t give that much of a fuck.

    Check what was used in my original comment vs. what was used in your reply. You both took my words out of context *AND* misquoted me to promote your argument? That’s shady.

    They aren’t fighting.

    There has been acrimony between PZ and TF for weeks now — like I said, I follow PZ on Twitter and every now and then he’ll mention TF or RT something about him; they aren’t exactly bosom buddies.

    TF has allegedly hacked the listserv and disseminated confidential information to third parties. PZ said what he had to say and has been almost entirely silent on the subject until this new information came to light.

    See above. I’m speaking in more general terms about their past disagreements, which appear to be escalating (allegedly). There are legal channels to address this, and I’m sure the site owner (Greg?) will pursue them. If TF really did it, shame on him.

    Where’s the fighting that PZ has any ability to stop?

    My context of this is that they have vitriolic with one another for some time now, and that this listserv hacking is the latest escalation in a series of exchanges.

    My call was not for solely PZ to make it stop, I was “concern trolling” (apparently) that the two of them have been bickering for some time now and I find it disappointing that they are.

  24. chakolate says

    Can somebody buy me a vowel? Is this a troll of some sort? Are these quotations from someone else or is he parroting his own observations? And what does it mean?

  25. jerrybarrington says

    Alleged.

    That’s a word you don’t see in Ashley’s post, but should. Perhaps in the title, where instead she merely implies that TF actually did this.

  26. PhysiPhile says

    lol at the people trying to take legal action. That’s what I call a bitch move.

    If you spend a good portion of your life on the internet you should understand that this is the world we live in where theres hackers and electronic information is easily attainable.

    Stop crying and move on. My advice is to stop saying shit to other people you wouldn’t like for the person you are talking about to know – its part of being a good person.

  27. Sheesh says

    Right, but TF confessed. Is tacking on alleged still something you do after a an unforced confession?

    Perhaps your post was not in good faith.

  28. Sheesh says

    Surely you meant “stop using the internet if bad people are willing to harm you for your minority status”. Right?

    That’s a pretty shitty message to post though, IMO.

  29. says

    A “bitch” move, eh? That goes hand in hand with your victim blaming and your definition of a “good person” not as one who doesn’t violate the confidences of others but one who thinks that nobody should ever talk online about the experience of being oppressed.

    You sound like a sociopath.

  30. Aaron says

    I can’t speak for others, but I was using it to mean “has not yet been convicted of said crime”. (ie. The recent Aurora shooter was caught red-handed, weapons on his person, but must still be referred to as “alleged” because he has not yet been convicted) If he really did hack the list-serve, in the sense that he gained unauthorized access to it, then that is most certainly illegal.

    There are other definitions that imply that the accusations are dubious and/or tenuous, which may be how others (those that believe he may not have done it, despite confessing) were using it.

    Also — just because he confessed doesn’t mean he actually did it, though he probably did, in this case. I mean heck, if *I* confessed to doing it FOR him, or if YOU confessed, does that automatically mean either of us actually did it?

  31. PhysiPhile says

    Surely you meant “stop using the internet if bad people are willing to harm you for your minority status”. Right?

    minority status? What was the harm done specifically? For me to say there was harm I need to know what was said not just that someone forwarded the email…which I obviously believe.

    “You sound like a sociopath.”

    Alright yeah I’m a sociopath. Good one. I’m actually going to be a neurologist to help kids with seizure disorders — and here’s the kicker — I do it for the good of mankind…yeah I’m such a sociopath – I would also call that weak name calling a “bitch move.” You sound like a fking dink — look that word up. Now we are done with name calling?

  32. jamesemery says

    My, but the trolls (both concerned and otherwise) are out in force today.

    PsysiPhile, perhaps you can work some studying of privilege into your time, maybe after finals? That would be greeeeaaaaaaaat.

  33. PhysiPhile says

    “PsysiPhile, perhaps you can work some studying of privilege into your time, maybe after finals?”

    I guess that means you got caught in my troll trap. Most of you die hard free thought people are trolls because trolls are perpetual debating machines aimed at inducing emotional responses.

    Kinda like your lame ass joke — maybe after my finals I can study some privilege! HAr har har…get out of here with that shit

  34. jerrybarrington says

    So I followed link after link thru twisty little blogs, and eventually got to TF’s “confession”.
    http://thunderf00tdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/08/10/ftb-want-thunderf00t-drummed-out-of-the-community-and-forever-a-pariah/

    I’m not impressed (with you folks).

    As he points out in that blog, he, and every other member of that mailing list, already had full access to whatever private identity info you may be worried about. He didn’t steal any of it.

    Nowhere in that blog does he confess to “hacking” back in. Using a valid invite to rejoin is not hacking.
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/08/10/what-thunderf00t-did-and-how/

    In the quote ZJ showed, he makes clear he sanitized the emails of personal details before passing them to Payton.

    As he also points out in that blog FTBers have violated the sanctity of the mailing list repeatedly themselves, without repercussion, even PZ himself.

    (And yes, I remember you from my last foray into posting here. I’m used to your obnoxious behavior, but I had expected better from the vloggers who led me to this site.)

  35. Goonsberry says

    It’s not trolling. It’s a honest opinion. Also if I were trolling your comment would have been an easy target. You shouldn’t make accusations.

  36. Stacy says

    I’m actually going to be a neurologist to help kids with seizure disorders — and here’s the kicker — I do it for the good of mankind

    And I am the Queen of Romania.

    HAr har har…get out of here with that shit

    You sound like you’re 14 years old, so I’m going to go easy on you: What Tf did was a a kind of stealing, and a violation of other people’s privacy. That is very, very wrong.

  37. julian says

    Someone’s privacy is compromised by someone with obvious malevolent motivation and this is your reply.

    You are scum. Trash. Fecal matter hanging off the side of the street.

    Your callous indifference towards others (and frank dismissal of what someone like Natalie Reed might suffer for this) makes it clear you’re not fit to be around others.

    Fuck off.

  38. Aaron says

    LOL

    hardly.

    I have about > < that much invested in this whole issue, beyond the fact that I think what TF admitted to doing is uber-shitty. I like PZ and am indeed concerned for the safety of those revealed.

    I find it really entertaining that the dialogue in this comment thread is so typical of the trash you find elsewhere on the Internet. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. None of you know anything about me at all (this is quite literally the first time I've EVER posted on FTB, tho I was a semi-frequent poster on SB), but you all make some rather huge assumptions about me simply because I'm not on the "ZOMG TF IS TEH BULLIEZ N WE SHUD LINCH HIM LOLOLOLOL" bandwagon.

    The attitude towards outsiders is a level of groupthink that reminds me of the Faux News "If you aren't promoting our narrative, then clearly you are on the complete opposite extreme of our position" — no room for middle ground or nuance.

    Fuck that.

    A "troll" is someone who posts stuff for the SOLE purpose of evoking negative emotional responses — the "throw the grenade in the room and shut the door". Apparently, that epithet has lost its meaning entirely. There IS a point on the "labeling someone a troll/bully" spectrum wherein you yourself become a troll/bully (meta-trolling?), and this comment thread, as brief as it is compared to some of PZs endless ones, has gone far beyond that pale.

    I should not be labeled "apologist" or "concern troll" simply because I believe in actually learning more about an issue before making a personal judgement about it. I have sympathy for the bloggers and concern for their safety and I am disappointed in TF's actions; but FUCK a subset of the community here, seriously (in the "disregard with prejudice" sense, not in the coital sense, since some people here seem to have serious lexical myopia).

    Anyways, I'm outs. Have fun having sexy time with my comment carcass. Or ignoring it. Or whatever. I don't care and won't see it.

  39. F says

    I don’t think you understand what the easily possible consequences of T-ft’s actions are. These are what one does not wish on their worst enemy.

  40. F says

    Any acrimony between PS and T-ft is due to T-ft’s immediate posting of sexist bullshit at this site where the sexism discussion had been long ongoing when T-ft accepted an invitation to join.

    So you can drop the “both sides” fallacy or forgo commenting until you know what you are commenting about.

  41. F says

    This isn’t a court of law, with the weird legal rules which have evolved, for good or ill, within that system. So get over it.

  42. hoary puccoon says

    this is Tfoot’s own video, and of course he makes a persuasive case for himself. But you should notice, he never gives a clear picture of what PZ Myers or Ed Brayton actually said or wrote to him. Tfoot *says* PZ strawmanned him– but then he puts a picture of his (Tfoot’s)*own* blogpost accusing PZ of strawmanning on the screen. So, essentially, Tfoot is saying, “What I’m saying is true because I said it was.”

    If you can’t see what’s wrong with that, you really, really need to work on your skills at logic.

  43. dougal445 says

    im not defending or deflecting from thunderf00ts actions here, but just a couple of point occurred to me.

    1) FFS. at least 40 people have access (including thunderf00t and alleged stalker and threatener, greg laden, legitametly at one time) have access to this personal information, why are you so worried only now?!

    2) FFS. Why have you realeased such potentialy damaging information on this listserv?!

    3) FFS why didn’t you use a psuedonym email account for this?!

  44. dougal445 says

    well you could go to the poxts where pz clearly misrepresents thunderf00t. Or see thunderf00ts later video where thunderf00t spells out what pz said and contrasts it with what the original thunderf00t post says.

  45. hoary puccoon says

    Moving the goal posts, are we?

    Somebody posts a video and demands to know what’s wrong with it. I point out what’s wrong with it, in a way that anyone reading the thread can go back and check for themselves. And now you tell me I shouldn’t have addressed *this* video, I should have addressed *some other* video??!?

    In other words, your position on Thunderfoot is, “La, la, la, I can’t hear you.” Thanks for making yourself so abundantly clear.

  46. Saristas says

    I don’t see how Thunderf00t did anything wrong. First of all, he had the information all along since he was part of that mailing list before he was “exiled” from this blog and didn’t publish it then and didn’t publish it now.
    Second, (From The Pits)
    “Greg also recently admitted to taking his slime fighting to directly attempt to interfere with Abbie Smith’s education and career. ”
    that sounds a lot like what the FTB is trying to do with Michael Payton AND Thunderf00t. Third, publishing Greg Ladens or other “confidential” emails is OK, when it suits your needs, but when Thunderf00t, removing all personal information, does it, it’s somehow wrong? Thunderf00t did something to prevent what you yourself speak out against and he’s the bad guy? That makes no sense.

  47. Saristas says

    Thunderf00t never leaked any private information. He just forwarded “confidential” emails removing all personal information from them to a guy against whose career the FTB was conspiring against. FTB frown upon such action yet they try and do it themselves. If you cannot see the hypocrisy you should look again.

  48. dougal445 says

    Oh. Ok.
    You’re just addressing the limitations of the
    is one video in isolation, not the larger picture.
    That fine.

  49. jerrybarrington says

    I there some reason my reply has been held in moderation for 2 days while others are posting in realtime?

  50. doubtthat says

    1) No one from FTB threatened Payton’s career. TF has the e-mails, he did not produce 1 bit of evidence suggesting such. Neither did he manage to produce a single word about Payton that wasn’t already published in a public blog post.

    2) Forwarding confidential information is leaking. We don’t know who the third parties were, nor what they’ve done or plan to do with that information. The federal statutes don’t even require forwarding of information, they just require unauthorized access to a private system:

  51. alecrezz says

    Yep. Thunderf00t is a detestable, underhanded cad for “hacking” into an email server he didn’t have permission to access, but PZ is a hero for “hacking” into a phone conference with a code he didn’t have permission to use. Makes perfect sense.

  52. Sassafras says

    How many blogs are you going to copy/paste this BS comment to?

    PZ called a public conference call that was open to everyone, and when he was asked to leave he did. Thunderf00t spied on a private mailing list he knew he wasn’t supposed to read, for a month, distributed private emails as gossip, and kept trying to access it even when he was specifically locked out. There’s no comparison between the two.

  53. ... says

    Hmmm. Yes, I mean, we all remember how one of Thunderf00t’s followers turned up at a workplace and tried to get someone fired for disagreeing with him, right? Or when he was giving a talk at a skeptic event, he used his privileged position to try tear into someone in the audience, yes? Or…

    Oh. Wait. Sorry, got a few of those details mixed up.

    Anyway, driven by a dark and prurient interest, I made haste to scamper over to Thunderf00t’s dread blog (how does he manage to encase a blog in human skin, I wonder?) to find the True Names of FTB, that I might Call Them Up And Bind Them To My Evil Will. But, curses! After pouring over and over his writing, I could find no such thing! Dammit, TF, you’re doing it wrong.

    So I returned and I found under the sun that none of the blogs here could tell me what he had done was so nefarious. The deep levels of silence must mean that his crimes are so terrible.

    Naturally, they must be far, far, faaarrr worse than, say, releasing the names of pro-democracy and human rights activists to tyrannies so that they can be murdered. We have already established that that sort of thing is okay with the FTB crowd
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2010/12/30/the-double-standard-on-wikileaks/
    (see others ad nauseum)

    Okay /saracasm. Meanwhile I should love to see someone, anyone address Thunderf00t’s actual charges. To me this looks like a swarm of bad little consciousnesses all zooming about and going nowhere.

  54. Ashley F. Miller says

    No one at FtB tried to get anyone fired — no one at FtB called CFI Canada, which Thunderf00t doesn’t actually say that we did, just implies it heavily, because he knows we didn’t.

    You do understand that threatening to publish someone’s name is different than actually publishing it right?

    Releasing government documents you got access to legitimately is completely different than releasing illicitly accessed private conversations between civilians.

    How would you feel if some asshole hacked into your e-mail and had every personal conversation you’d had that he could release whenever he felt like being a dick? And since he’s shown no reservations in trying to make people look bad by publishing whatever he wants from them, there’s no reasonable expectation that he’s not going to continue to do so.

  55. ... says

    Releasing government documents you got access to legitimately

    The privileged, parochial middle-class American outlook rides again. People died because of that. The names of human rights groups who fought against the Taliban were released and they died because of that. But, yeah, doing that is fine. Nothing not-actually releasing names and documents, but being in a position to maaayyyybe…

    Incidentally, trying to find out about this, I wandered over to his blog and I found no such threat to release names and documents.

    No one at FtB tried to get anyone fire

    Greg Laden’s little stunt ring any bells? And I wasn’t just talking about FTB, but the larger group affiliated with it. Yes, you can disavow responsibility for whipping up that frenzy, and I have a bridge to sell you.

  56. Nothingifnotcritical says

    Hmmm, I’ve seen some pretty serious social justice activists take on the topic of “adultism”:

    http://vimeo.com/7783159

    Perhaps the definition of “cargo cult social justice” could be any concept of social justice not falling into the *narrow*, limited, and dogmatic ideology promulgated by the FTB commentariat.

  57. jerrybarrington says

    The names of human rights groups who fought against the Taliban were released and they died because of that.

    Try as I might, I can find no evidence this is true. Any citation that does more than just assert that people died?

  58. ... says

    And you can read this one too:

    http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/30/taliban-study-wikileaks-to-hunt-informants/

    Notice that Thunderf00t not-actually-posting the emails is enough to prompt a long, self-pitying post here, but doing this sort of stuff is considered “legitimate” by AM.

    here are not words for how violated I feel, how heartsick I am for those who are worried about personal details being shared

    Example? Just one? Because I have scoured TF’s site and haven’t noticed any.

    I could not be more disappointed that he is an “ally” in the atheist movement

    My commiseration. I could not be more disappointed in the majority of FTB as part of any “atheist movement”, but that hasn’t stopped anyone.

  59. jerrybarrington says

    See, that’s my point. You claimed people have died. That is not the same as claiming that they are more likely to die.

    By the way, that 1st link isn’t even journalism. It’s just character assassination and political rant.

  60. ... says

    And you prove my point. Outing people to the Taliban: A-OK! Not-even-outing-but-mayyyybe of some list no one cares about: baaad.

    Read the other damn link. I really get tired of this from supposed skeptics.

  61. jerrybarrington says

    You seem a bit confused… you see, I’m not complaining about TF, I’m just pointing out that your claim that people have been killed by Wikileaks is unsupported. Just because I criticize one part of what you say doesn’t mean I’m refuting everything you say. Life is not “either you’re 100% with me or you’re 100% against me”.

  62. ... says

    Fair enough; I would still direct you to the fact that the Taliban is using that as a kill list. They are not exactly unserious or inefficient people.

    I confess that my temper’s been frayed by people presenting Assange as some sort of martyr. I am sorry about exploding at you for that.

    I’ve also notice the tendency for very long, very self-pitying and overdramatic FTB posts. If TF is outing peoples identities, why can I find no evidence whatsoever of that? On the other hand, I do find him presenting very good evidence for dishonesty and conspiracy to commit theft from the likes of Ed Brayton.

  63. says

    Very good evidence would have been him not getting a check,not carefully selected quotes which he has stripped of context. Thunderf00t isn’t accused of revealing people’s identities, at least not publicly. He forwarded full e-mails to some people privately, so gave up identifying info there. He’s being accused of leaking private info. Since he’s known to do this for purposes of self-aggrandizement and also has identifying info, some people are afraid he will release that, too.

  64. ... says

    Wow. Amazing. Er… where’s your evidence? And no, the word of the FTB crowd doesn’t count.

    I’ll note that I’d never heard of the guy before this, and yet he’s the one bringing the evidence to the table.

  65. ... says

    I’ve just wandered along to your blog and realized that asking for evidence from you is a waste of time.

    From the blog:

    As those of you who follow the blog may know, a few days ago, I embarrassed myself by criticizing Thunderf00t for things I was pretty sure he said, but could find no direct evidence of and inferences about what he meant when he said something.

    You’re doing it again.

  66. says

    The problem before was I was arguing based on inferences and asking people to take my word for it about the contents of deleted videos. He’s been pretty clear lately. He’s a sexist. He argues in bad faith. He thinks he understands law, especially IP law, far better than he does. He cannot be trusted with private information.

    Where’s my evidence? Just look at what he’s written over the past few months. Notice how he avoided the more substantiative arguments when responding to critics. He mostly accused people of strawmanning him without explaining how they got his position wrong. The only straw man he explained was his graph. His explanation doesn’t make sense as what the wider community thinks wasn’t at issue and even if it were, his math justifying his sample is based on shaky assumptions.

    For a more potent example of bad faith argument, look at his first post about the leaks. He carefully constructed it to give the impression some people at FTB were trying to to have Michael Payton fired without saying it, then refuses to clarify. He’s trying to have it both ways, where he gets the idea out there, but doesn’t have to back it up if challenged.

    As for leaking private info, he leaked the e-mails. You may think the content isn’t a big deal, but he was told in confidence. He’s no whistleblower unless he exposes actual wrongdoing. So far, all he’s exposed is out-of-context quotes to imply stuff. For the pay dispute, look back a few posts. Thunderf00t says he doesn’t want the money and Ed Brayton tells him he’s getting paid whether he likes it or not. Unless some effort is made to avoid paying him, someone saying they hope he doesn’t get paid is venting, not a conspiracy. Where’s Thunderf00t’s evidence. He has all those emails, yet can’t produce one that actually says “we’re not going to pay Thunderf00t” or “Let’s get Michael Payton fired.”

    On the law, he repeatedly makes speculation and presents it as a legal argument in his original posts. There was his attempt to use Surly Amy’s photo that makes it clear he doesn’t know what fair use is and his claims that implementing a harassment policy gives a convention a duty of care to their attendees.

  67. ... says

    e’s been pretty clear lately. He’s a sexist. He argues in bad faith.

    And he has horns. And gills. and a tail. And scales. In fact, he’s probably a blood-drinking space lizard from Alpha Draconis.

    As for leaking private info, he leaked the e-mails. You may think the content isn’t a big deal, but he was told in confidence.

    I’ve seen the stuff he’s been ‘leaking’ – i.e., accurately quoting. I honestly do not see the problem.

    He mostly accused people of strawmanning him without explaining how they got his position wrong.

    I believe this is what they call ‘projection’.

    Ed Brayton tells him he’s getting paid whether he likes it or no

    Oh, Brayton says a lot of things. Was this before or after he ended up with egg all over his face about the payment issue?

    He has all those emails, yet can’t produce one that actually says “we’re not going to pay Thunderf00t”

    Actually, he did.

    There was his attempt to use Surly Amy’s

    You mean that ridiculous individual who is reduced to tears because of a t-shirt?

    that makes it clear he doesn’t know what fair use is

    Then why don’t you make a legal issue out of it? Come on, put your money where you’re mouth is.

    at FTB were trying to to have Michael Payton fired without saying it, then refuses to clarify

    Actually, from what I recall, he says that Greg Laden was trying to get Abbie Smith fired. Which Laden was.

    And so on. Come on. Get real. This just will not do.

  68. says

    I’ve seen the stuff he’s been ‘leaking’ – i.e., accurately quoting. I honestly do not see the problem.

    The issue is that it was said in confidence and he wasn’t even included in that confidence in most cases. If my previous employer did a bad job locking me out, that wouldn’t be a license to post private customer records online, even if I thought it showed that my old boss was a jerk.

    I believe this is what they call ‘projection’.

    For this to be projection, I would have to be accusing people people of strawmanning me, but not explaining what they got wrong. You’ll notice I haven’t done that.

    Oh, Brayton says a lot of things. Was this before or after he ended up with egg all over his face about the payment issue?

    This was only a few days after he was fired, so well before. After Thunderf00t said not to pay him, he complained that they were conspiring not to pay him.

    Actually, he did.

    Really, what’s the quote? Someone who doesn’t control the paychecks sayign they hope Thunderf00t doesn’t get paid isn’t at all comparable.

    You mean that ridiculous individual who is reduced to tears because of a t-shirt?

    Ridiculous people have the same copyright rights as anyone else. That’s an ad hominem and doesn’t address the claim that Thunderf00t made unauthorized use of her work, then made protestations about fair use where he didn’t seem to understand that you can use excerpts of another person’s work to comment on them, not to do whatever you damn well please with them. If you think I can make a legal issue out of it, you don’t get fair use either. I don’t own the copyright. Amy does. I can’t sue on her behalf. She seems satisfied that he took it down. If he hadn’t, she could have made a legal issue out of it.

    Actually, from what I recall, he says that Greg Laden was trying to get Abbie Smith fired. Which Laden was.

    We didn’t find out about this as a result of Thunderf00t’s leaks. Greg was fired at the same time he was and wasn’t even on the listserv for the period where he sneaked in. It had been public knowledge for months. I’m talking about the paragraphs about Payton. It’s the same post, right after the stuff about Laden.

  69. ... says

    Ridiculous people have the same copyright rights as anyone else

    And I repeat: if there is genuine violation, take it up with the courts. I also do hope that no one here has ever done anything similar, and have always gotten all the permissions to use any picture of someone else they put up. They wouldn’t not, would they? That’d be just awful wouldn’t it?

    The issue is that it was said in confidence and he wasn’t even included in that confidence in most cases.

    Yes, I seem to recall similar whining from members of the British National Party when the brilliant investigative programme Dispatches got their members giving their real views. It was “in confidence” see…

    As regards the payment issue – TF was assured of being paid for the hits, and, granted that it is very decent of TF to say that it should go to Medicine Sans Frontiers, but it’s still not very cricket for people to say things like

    “Plus, TF had more hits than ten of our bloggers today. Please tell me he is not getting paid for them. And that we are divvying up his spoils.”

    Yeah, yeah – that was IN CONFIDENCE!!!! Tell me when I care.

    People cannot point to any real wrongdoing. There’s all this stuff about “he’s secretly leaking this” with no evidence except innuendo from people who are demonstrably not trustworthy and are noted self-pitying hysterics. What he has posted are some quotes that manage to lower my already low estimation of the likes of Myers.

    Speaking of which, I notice that PZ also decided to discuss the stuff from the list which was, presumably, also “in confidence” ™.

    Now, as regards Payton, on whom I’ve just read up – yeah, sure, I’ll bet that the denizens of FTB had nothing to do with the swarms calling for him to be dismissed from his job. Never mind some very damaging quotes that show the usual paranoia being whipped up against him. I’m sure there’s no connection, anymore than there was between FTB and the harassment of Abbie Smith, or the skepchick community and sketopia being bombarded with accusations of prudery and being a feminazi when she objected to having a “wild west bordello” theme’d party. Yes, I’m sure these are all completely unconnected.

    And I’m queen Marie of Romania.

  70. ludicfallacy says

    That is a strong accusation of a CRIMINAL ACT.

    I sure hope you have evidence to support this accusation Ashley F. Miller.

    It’s my understanding that thunderf00t was simple on a CC list where you guys were privately ridiculing him and idiotically send him the same emails. These conversations were sent to his address by accident.

    I guess he then published them.

    Considering his treatment is this surprising duh!?!

    If the accusation of criminality is wrong, I as a person that comes from a family of lawyers, would file defamation of character litigation purely out of principle.

    In fact I think I will try to help thunderf00t in this regard via my family connection with McCarthy Tétrault.

  71. says

    Had it not been for the alarm clock she wouldn’t have been late.The figure seems all Right.So far,So good.I doubted whether the story is true.His father runs a restaurant.The meeting was scheduled for two hours, but it is now over yetThe meeting was scheduled for two hours, but it is now over yetHe broke his words once again.Time is up.Once you begin,you must continue.

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  73. says

    An impressive share! I’ve just forwarded this onto a co-worker who was doing a little homework on this. And he in fact ordered me dinner because I found it for him… lol. So allow me to reword this…. Thanks for the meal!! But yeah, thanx for spending some time to talk about this issue here on your blog.|

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Trackbacks

  1. […] been having it so hard. Natalie Reed, a contributor to Freethought Blogs, uses a pseudonym but is in danger of losing her anonymity, with potentially life-and-livelihood-threatening consequences.Around midnight last night, she […]

  2. […] -Ashley Miller – Thunderf00t: Stealing people’s private information is a major violation -Natalie Reed – All In (I am praying, to beings I don’t believe in, that Natalie is not totally leaving. She is one of the reasons I read FtB. She’s incredible, and worth reading/listening to) -Stephanie Zvan – In Praise of Whistleblowers -Zinnia Jones – Thunderf00t’s unauthorized access and leaking of the private FTB mailing list (this one was my first exposure to this issue) and Thunderf00t admits to sending my private emails to Michael Payton of CFI Canada -Ed Brayton – Thunderfoot’s Unethical Obsession -PZ Myers – Summary of Thunderf00t/Phil Mason’s disgrace and Thunderf00t/Phil Mason, treacherous hack -Jen McCreight – Thunderf00t’s unethical breach of our privacy -Ophelia Benson – Collateral damage […]

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