Christians are selfish, awful people


While other people are isolating themselves to slow the spread of the epidemic, Michigan Republicans pushed through an exemption to allow churches to have gatherings of 50 or more people.

Meanwhile, in Florida, this pompous ass is encouraging his congregation to hug each other and promises that he’ll never close his services.

Before you say Darwin award, keep in mind that the purpose of all this quarantine stuff is to reduce the chances that community medical infrastructure isn’t overwhelmed. These selfish assholes are going to kill other people outside their church.

The only way to avoid that is if we add a further restriction to that church exemption: sure, you can gather in loud Jebus-whoopin’ crowds and hug and slobber all over each other, on the condition that we get to lock you in, and you don’t get to come out until the worst of the pandemic is over. I’m sure the Lord will protect you.

Comments

  1. Bruce says

    To attend church these days, these Christians should sign a pledge that none of their family members will ever go to a busy hospital, for any reason. If their kid gets hit by a car or gets sick, they swear only to pray and not do anything medical. Except that that would be child endangerment. These Christians should have to give their kids up for immediate adoption NOW, by a loving family that can and will actually take care of the kids properly. In practice, that likely means all evangelical kids now being adopted by gay couples.
    Their safety demands this. Think of the children.

  2. consciousness razor says

    Lots of states, not just Michigan. Even in New York, where it currently looks the worst, Cuomo hasn’t made it mandatory.
    But does it matter anymore? Many conservatives are spreading this “15 days” insanity now. Their plan is literally that huge numbers will die on the altar of capitalism, after we dump a few trillion into corporate socialism. How many dead — A million or more? They don’t care.
    What do we do? If you’re hoping for some kind of a revolt, think again. A bunch of purported anti-socialists have been stocking up on guns and ammo (for much of their lives, but especially in recent months). So if it does come to that, it’s more likely to be a fascist revolution. At this point, these people seem so lathered up that they’d take up arms if we don’t deliberately kill a million of our own citizens.

  3. whheydt says

    Re: razor @ #2…
    There is a gun shop owner in Castro Valley (CA) insisting that he be allowed to keep said shop open as an “essential business”. So it’s not only the gun nuts, but also their “pushers”.

    On the underlying issue as posted… Obtain a list of all members of the church. If any of them show up to be treated for Covid-19, turn them away unless they can prove they didn’t catch it at the church. If they show up for any other cause, test them and then turn them away if they test positive for the Covid-19 virus.

    Meanwhile…WHO has noted that the first 100K cases took 67 days to occur. The second 100K took 11 days. The third 100K took 4 days. You do the math. (Of course, the real problem here is that much of the increase is most likely to be more testing, rather than more actual cases..)

  4. euclide says

    One of France hot zone for covid-19 is Haut-Rhin, on the border with Germany, which is where I spent my childhood.
    The reason of the hotspot ? An evengelical gathering of 2000 people in February, with lots of hugs and handshakes, and no attendee list
    I know people who are in danger of dying as a consequence, and I have family there too.

    In South Korea, same story. 60% of their cases is linked to a chuch

  5. Mark says

    I once attended a political debate in a church. Big mistake. It was like a WWF event. There were two guys sitting behind me who were whoopin’, whistling, and hollering to support the right-wing side. I could feel their spit droplets on the back of my neck. Three days later I came down with the flu. Coincidence? I think not.

  6. raven says

    No surprise.

    The first major outbreak in South Korea was started from a Doomsday fundie xian cult called the Shincheonji Church of Jesus. It’s estimated that 9,000 members of the cult caught the Covid-19 virus.

    I’m sure we will see a few fundie cults here in the USA turn into petri dishes for the virus.
    I’m also sure that most of them will become believers in the Germ Theory of Disease after that happens.
    Never forget that hypocrisy is one of the three main sacraments of the fundie xians.

    Oddly enough, one of the high risk groups in Italy has turned out to be priests. They’ve been spending a lot of time conforting the ill and performing the Catholic last rites.

    Catholic Herald UK:

    At least 28 priests in northern Italy have died from COVID-19
    Courtney Mares March 20, 2020 at 10:54 am

  7. DanDare says

    Here in Oz our Pentacostal PM delayed crowd bans until after the big Hill Song meeting in Sydney. Now NSW is the virus capitol of Australia.

  8. Artor says

    If these jackasses survive the pandemic, it will be because of sacrifices other people have made. Heaven forbid they change a damn thing in the face of other people’s deaths and destroyed lives.

  9. Dunc says

    And the US growth curve is visibly accelerating, even when plotted on a log scale…

  10. stroppy says

    The magic number 15. Trump’s shouty all caps tweet:

    WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF. AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD, WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!

    Weasel words, and the magas hear: 15 days and relief is just around the corner. Suckered. Every. Single.Time.

  11. guido says

    I’m a guy who values trying to be rational, even though I recognize that human beings are complex and not entirely rational. So, of the scariest aspects of this situation is that the anti-science crowd (i.e., wing-nuts, many evangelicals, et. al) will act a a giant social petri dish that potentially facilitate spreading the disease to others who take the situation more seriously. I recall a recent article in the WaPo that expressed the idea that elderly people in the US were more concerned about the virus, unless they were Republicans. Sad! (As an orange person once said.)

  12. answersingenitals says

    “Christians are selfish, awful people”
    Yes, this proves that ALL Christians are selfish, awful people. Or is it Michiganders who are ll selfish, awful people. Or maybe just Republican state legislators who are all selfish, awful people. Maybe all people that PZM doesn’t like are…

    Aren’t such broad generalizations what we sometimes refer to as racism?

  13. vereverum says

    @ raven #7
    “Oddly enough, one of the high risk groups in Italy has turned out to be priests. They’ve been spending a lot of time conforting the ill and performing the Catholic last rites.”
    Similar in 1340’s-1350’s in Europe, overall priest death rate was about 40 to 50 percent. somewhat higher than overall population at large.

  14. Saad says

    answersingenitals,

    Aren’t such broad generalizations what we sometimes refer to as racism?

    No, not such broad generalizations.

  15. John Morales says

    [I think answersingenitals intended to convey something like ‘discrimination’ — that is, unfair treatment due to prejudice — but the overall point is valid]

  16. chrislawson says

    Artor@9–

    The central tenet of Christianity is that someone else died to forgive us of our sins. It should be no surprise that some Christians think sacrificing other people for their own benefit is A-OK.

  17. chrislawson says

    answersingenitals–

    You have a good case to argue that the headline is far too generalised. You have a very poor case to argue that any given generalisation is the same as any other.

  18. whheydt says

    Re: vereverum @ #15…
    Odd…I thought the death rate was 100%. I can’t think of anyone, regardless of occupation, from 1350 to 1450 who is still alive…

  19. methuseus says

    Alachua county, Florida, has instituted a “stay at home” directive, closing non-essential businesses. Their list of what’s essential makes it look like almost nothing will be closed except bars and playground. There is also a limit on any gathering of more than 10 people, with church services being an exception. They recommend starting at least 6 feet away from anyone during church services, but still a major vector.

  20. garysturgess says

    whheydt@21 Well there’s that dude from Sandman – Hobbs, I think? Vandal Savage, too. X-Men foe Apocalypse.

    But no real people, no. :)

  21. microraptor says

    whheydt @3: There’s a strong overlap between gun store employees and owners and gun nuts, as far as I can tell.

  22. unclefrogy says

    well let me try to make a distinction here between the frightened believers in churches and religion and those greedy parasites who may even believe themselves but they always make their decisions based on greed and the lust for power.
    you just have to look at store shelves to see the effects of the fear. the faith community is often steeped in fear not least of which the fear of their god and death. They are not very grounded in reality and are vulnerable to these disgusting preachers who are all the spiritual brothers of Jim Jones they just play it a little safer. The power of ignorance when coupled with faith is astonishing.
    uncle frogy

  23. TGAP Dad says

    Re: Michigan republicans…
    While I am not a fan of actually causing harm to people, I am also a fan of not preventing them from harming themselves.
    * The churchgoing population skews toward the older demographic, who overwhelmingly support Tiny Hands.
    * White Evangelicals support tiny Hands at about 80-90%. Let them congregate as often and closely as possible.
    * Nature has a way of culling the destructive members of a species out, so let nature take its course.
    * Treat all devout churchgoers as infected until proven otherwise

  24. consciousness razor says

    We’ve got lots of derangement here, jrkrideau. Some jackass licked a row of deodorant containers at a Missouri Walmart. “Who’s scared of coronavirus?” (Apparently, this owns the libs.) He then posted the video on social media.

    The Warrenton Police Department said in a statement Monday that the man was taken into custody and charges were pending through the Warren County Prosecuting Attorney’s Office. It was not immediately clear Monday what kind of charges police applied for against the man.

    “We have received numerous reports about the video from locals, nearby residents, as well as people from the Netherlands, Ireland, and the United Kingdom,” the statement from the department said. “We take these complaints very seriously and would like to thank all of those who reported the video so the issue could be addressed.”

    Meanwhile, Florida Man was beating and strangling a pregnant woman “because he thought she had coronavirus.” Also in custody.

  25. unclefrogy says

    Evangelicals seem totally deranged.

    they seem to barely understand infection and infectious agents and tend to have a positively mid-evil view of the world.
    lost in the drama of gods and devils and heaven and hell
    uncle frogy

  26. answersingenitals says

    To all those who criticized my post # 13, if this story was about an Imam at a mosque (or a rabbi at a synagogue, or a Hindu Pujari at a Mandir (yes, I look those up and my spell checker never heard of them!)) and PZM headlined this article with “Muslims are selfish, awful people” (or similar for the other religions), would you have the same reaction?

  27. tangoyango says

    Nope. He’s not a troll. He’s making a valid point. Bigotry is not okay. If anyone here is a troll, it’s PZ with that shit-stirring title.

  28. tangoyango says

    Also, how is his name transphobic? It’s intent is clearly to poke fun at Answers in Genesis.

  29. Saad says

    answersingenitals, #

    To all those who criticized my post # 13, if this story was about an Imam at a mosque (or a rabbi at a synagogue, or a Hindu Pujari at a Mandir (yes, I look those up and my spell checker never heard of them!)) and PZM headlined this article with “Muslims are selfish, awful people” (or similar for the other religions), would you have the same reaction?

    And if a white American gets called cracker, isn’t it just like calling a black American a racist slur?!?!?!?

  30. says

    Just to clarify, can we all agree that at least these particular Christians are selfish (or at least foolish) people who are putting their entire community at risk, including those people who don’t attend their church?

  31. johnson catman says

    The only way to avoid that is if we add a further restriction to that church exemption: sure, you can gather in loud Jebus-whoopin’ crowds and hug and slobber all over each other, on the condition that we get to lock you in, and you don’t get to come out until the worst of the pandemic is over. I’m sure the Lord will protect you.

    Hmmmmmm. Sounds eerily like an Edgar Allan Poe story.

  32. Matthew Herron says

    Really, PZ? All Christians? I’ve accused some ID proponents of anti-atheist bigotry, here on FtB, for generalizations not too different from this. Are some Christians selfish, awful people? Of course. Is Howard-Brown? Obviously. So are some atheists, as you’ve pointed out many times. If I wrote posts with similar titles but replacing “Christians” with pretty much any other demographic (including Muslims, as answersingenitals), I’d expect to get kicked off of FtB, and that right quick.

  33. KG says

    I agree with answersingenitals, except that PZ’s title is clearly not a form of racism, although it does display overt prejudice and stereotyping. (Islamophobia in the US and Europe is a form of racism, as it adds to the disadvantage of those whose ethnicity make them “conceivably Muslim”, in Sam Harris’s odious terminology.) But there are examples of religiously-based selfishness and stupidity advancing the pandemic from Muslim sources (the epidemic in Malaysia seems mostly to have derived from a large religious gathering), from ultra-Orthodox Jewish groups (a number of their synagogues remain open in London, or did a couple of days ago), and I’d be surprised if you couldn’t find Hindu, Buddhist, Sikh etc. examples (Aung San Syu Kyi, one-time darling of the west, absurdly claimed there were no cases of Covid-19 in Myanmar). However, I’d be equally surprised if you couldn’t find a considerable number of movement atheists supporting the Trump “let it rip to save the economy” strategy.

  34. mamba says

    Sure, let them go to church…and when it’s in session you lock the doors and put caution biohazard tape around the building.

    The church is now their new quarantine zone. They chose it by leaving their homes.

    but don’t worry, God will protect them if they all pray hard enough right? And they even have a priest right there!!

    They’ll be fine , and as long as they remain locked up…so will the rest of us.

  35. tangoyango says

    The disturbing thing about this blog and its commentariat is its outright refusal denounce bigotry and hatred in all its forms.
    Like all bigots, they have justifications and rationalizations but at the end of the day hatred is hatred. Nugent was right about this place.

  36. auntidote says

    The Darwin Award has Evolved.
    Now, instead of your stupidity killing you, it causes you to murder others exponentially.

  37. a_ray_in_dilbert_space says

    Of course it’s not “ALL Christians”. It’s always been the 99.99% of Xtians who give the other 0.01% a bad name.

  38. microraptor says

    @35: We have a poster calling themselves Answers in Genitals on a blog that regularly comments on transgender issues, including the issue over people regularly insisting that a trans person’s gender is what’s between their legs, and you have to ask how that name is transphobic?

  39. says

    I agree that the post title is prejudicial, and I also answersingenitals confuses racism (a form of bigotry) with ways bigotry is expressed (prejudice). At the same time fellow christians are going to be the best people situated to put pressure of the virus spreading incompetent ignoramuses. Fortunately you don’t have to describe them all as bad, you just have to point out some bad christians and the reputation sense can get feelings from that (I wonder wherein the body those feelings are?)

    With respect to the name answersingenitals, I can see how that can both be something to annoy creationists (christians are sex sensitive), and how it can look transphobic with the sorts of transphobic posters we’ve seen.

  40. Porivil Sorrens says

    @answersingenitals and Matthew Herron
    Imagine getting a bee in your bonnet over someone calling the world’s largest and most powerful faith, which was fundamental in creating and spreading almost every social ill we currently deal with, selfish and awful.

    Yeah, you know, I think that christians can afford to take the L here. There isn’t a centuries old atheist pogrom against christians still being persecuted to this day, so if the worst they have to worry about is an obscure atheist blog calling them mean names over their awful response to a global pandemic, they should consider themselves lucky.

    Anyone who criticizes PZ’s title has, if nothing else, immensely skewed priorities, and frankly it’s embarrassing to hear coming from someone with a blog here.

  41. brightmoon says

    This is why I had to stop going to church I was tired of the arguments over science especially evolution. The sheer stupidity of some fundies is mind boggling. This goes past ignorance to stupidity

  42. Porivil Sorrens says

    Oof, missed one.

    @43
    Imagine thinking bigotry and hatred are bad in and of themselves. I am bigoted towards, and hate bigots and religious extremists, as is every other remotely moral person. Tolerance in the face of intolerance is collaboration, plain and simple.

  43. says

    @43
    What about hatred? If you have some problem hatred to show you should get to it. Additionally that’s a fascinating blanket characterization for someone critisizing bigotry.

    Emotions are bad in there execution, not general nature.

  44. Porivil Sorrens says

    @52
    Nah, not really. I can see why a birdbrained Nugent fan might think so, though.

  45. says

    @tangoyango 52
    You think choosing a name that doubles as a sociopolitical dominance display is a stretch? It’s not a stretch to think that someone could also be choosing a name that suggests genitalia as a location for answers to a different political conflict.

    It could go both ways and disallowing potentially
    politically annoying names could be politically useful so you may consider being more accommodating.

  46. tangoyango says

    “Potentially politically annoying”

    What meaningless drivel. Any name could be “potentially politically annoying”.

    @53
    Oooh, shots fired. Didn’t realize I was a Nugent fan. You mean Ted Nugent? Not too fond of him, now that I think about it…

  47. Porivil Sorrens says

    @55
    You’re the one that typed “Nugent was right about this place.” Interesting that your memory fails to extend more than one post into the past.

  48. springa73 says

    The original post isn’t racist, since Christians aren’t a race, but it is deeply prejudiced in a comparable way. Judging huge groups based on the actions of a few people who are part of those groups is never a good thing. Also, saying it’s ok to hate large swathes of people, but that this is not bigotry, makes no sense at all.

  49. tangoyango says

    @ 57

    Agreeing with somebody once does not make one a “fan”. Think about it. Try not to tire yourself out though.

  50. Porivil Sorrens says

    @59
    Indeed, some might call that “hyperbolic language”, but I think that might have a few too many syllables for you. Either way, acknowleding that you both read and agree with Nugent is a far greater self-insult than anything I could manage, so bravo on that

    @58
    Nobody here is claiming that it isn’t bigotry, we’re claiming that it isn’t bad. Being bigoted towards bigots is the moral position.

  51. Pierce R. Butler says

    methuseus @ # 22: Alachua county, Florida, has instituted a “stay at home” directive, closing non-essential businesses. Their list of what’s essential makes it look like almost nothing will be closed except bars and playground.

    The emergency order takes 10 pages to spell out what we can and can’t do. Note that “Essential Businesses and Operations” explicitly includes liquor stores (apparently the County Chair knows enough history [e.g., 1919-1933] to realize what happens when government tries to ban such enterprises); I suspect the medical-services-and-supplies exemption covers the (licensed) marijuana distributors.

  52. tangoyango says

    @60
    No, you weren’t using ” hyperbolic language”, you were being thoughtless. Just use “hyperbole” in the future, by the way. It’s much more succinct, and needlessly using extra syllables does it make you look as smart as you think it does.

    Also, not all Christians are bigots. But I’m sure you’ve gone through all the necessary mental gymnastics and rationalizations necessary to justify putting all Christians in one box. Now your daddy issues and depression can be vented towards others as hatred. A hatred cloaked in “politics”, of course.

  53. Porivil Sorrens says

    @62
    No, I was in fact using hyperbolic language, and I feel little need to try and demonstrate that I am smarter than you, given that I’m not the one that has willingly admitted to reading and agreeing with an idiot like Nugent.

    Insofar as all Christians being bigots, call me when they stop following a holy book that calls people like me sinful abominations and using their position as the largest and most powerful religion on the planet to support institutions that proliferate said bigotry (when they aren’t just actively taking part in it).

    By the by, mocking “daddy issues and depression” in an argument where you attempt to posit yourself as morally superior to others for your lack of hatred is a nice touch.

  54. says

    @tangoyango 55
    You haven’t explained why all hatred needs denounced. You should probably get around to that before making claims about the rediculiousness of login names and transphobic splash damage.

    Honest about what?

  55. says

    @Porivil Sorrens 60
    To be bigoted against bigots one would have to have irrational feelings about them that lead to irrational actions, the expressed forms of prejudice and discrimination among other things like use as political tools.
    I don’t think that’s a defendable position.

    Bigotry is also about irrational dominance displays or other social aggression so it’s not like we have to avoid dominance and aggression, just the bigotry.

  56. Porivil Sorrens says

    @65
    I don’t share your definition of “bigotry”, and I have never once heard or read it defined in such a way – which is significant, given that my degree is in Sociology. It just means “intolerant prejudice”, which I absolutely hold against bigots. If it did necessarily imply irrationality I would agree, but I reject that it necessarily implies such.

  57. says

    @Porivil Sorrens 66
    And I’ve seen irrationality in definitions of bigotry. This looks like a political conflict to me and I’ll go the direction that’s more helpful to the victims of bigots.

    There’s using bigotry in a way that suggests it has positive uses (being bigoted against christians), or there’s emphasizing the irrationality such that individual cases of prejudice and discrimination have rationales. I do the second because prejudice is warranted with bad reputation, and discriminating among groups let’s us identify bigots.

    Which one do you think works better sociologist? What provides better role-modeling and focus on our collective problems?

  58. says

    If it can be rational to be bigoted against religion are there times when racism, sexism, and homophobia are rational? I don’t like this one at all. I like to keep irrationality with bigotry because the only thing it seems to have as a reason is the social conflict. If there’s anything else it’s rational and not bigotry. It’s fine to have social conflicts over creationism, that’s not irrational.
    Put the irrationality into a dislike of religion and I don’t see how it can be anything but bigotry.

    I’ve been thinking over this place in politics for years.

  59. jrkrideau says

    @ 61 Pierce R. Butler

    The Province of Ontario has just issued a “Close all non-essential businesses” order.

    Essential businesses include liquor stores and bicycle shops. Both make sense after some thought.

  60. tangoyango says

    @63

    As predicted:
    “call me when they stop following a holy book that calls people like me sinful abominations and using their position as the largest and most powerful religion on the planet to support institutions that proliferate said bigotry (when they aren’t just actively taking part in it).”

    You know damn well the vast majority of Christians do not, in any serious sense, follow that book. They go to church and gossip. Churches essentially function as points of congregation for the community. Their Bible is for the most part an afterthought ( disregarding a small minority of zealots). Face it, most people couldn’t care less about you.

    How does the lady running the bake sale or driving a van full of kids into the Appalachian Mountains to do charity work ” using their position as the largest and most powerful religion on the planet supporting institutions that proliferate said bigotry”? Because 99% of people who identify as Christian.

    Accuse meaning of mocking depression all you want. It is clear but you have twisted all Christians into extremists to justify hatred towards people who’ve done you no wrong as and alternative to dealing with your own issues.

    Stop being you, its not working. Go get therapy.

    And watch this:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HLNhPMQnWu4

    I get the feeling it describes you down to a T.

  61. Porivil Sorrens says

    @70

    You know damn well the vast majority of Christians do not, in any serious sense, follow that book.

    They do in the ways that matter, given the near universiality of their bigoted beliefs in modern society.

    They go to church and gossip.

    “No listen guys my klan meeting is a nice one, we just wear the same robes and generally agree with the rest of the klan, but most of the time its just a social club”

    Face it, most people couldn’t care less about you.

    About me personally? No shit. You’re literally insane if you think most people are racist, homophobic, or transphobic though.

    It is clear but you have twisted all Christians into extremists to justify hatred towards people who’ve done you no wrong as and alternative to dealing with your own issues.

    I never claimed that they’re extremists, I claim that they follow a belief system that is directly responsible for creating and proliferating most of the social ills in society, which is true.

    The nice old lady baking cookies or what the fuck ever still goes twice a week to express her devotion to a book that calls people like me unholy abominations and then votes for politicians that believe the exact same thing and try to put that theory into praxis. That doesn’t make her an extremist, it makes her a christian.

  62. tangoyango says

    @71

    You have not demonstrated the “near universality of their bigoted beliefs”, nor will you be able to. The political and cultural beliefs a Christians are markedly heterogeneous.

    KKK?? Seriously??

    “I claim that they follow a belief system that is directly responsible for creating and proliferating most of the social ills in society, which is true.”

    Okay, its true because you say it’s true, I guess.

    PS: As someone raised in a Christian household and who took part in many Christian activities growing up, I can assure you that most Christians don’t believe any of the shit in the bible. You should go to a church service. There will likely be no discussions of lgbt people or politics in general ( trust me I’ve gone to many services).

    Most church sermons are basically inspirational self help talks with a patina of Jesus babble and some soulless contemporary Christian rock garbage.

    Pick a better enemy.

  63. Porivil Sorrens says

    @72

    You have not demonstrated the “near universality of their bigoted beliefs”, nor will you be able to.

    I was referring to the social beliefs in question – is, homophobia, in this particular example.

    KKK?? Seriously??

    Yes.

    Okay, its true because you say it’s true, I guess.

    Nah, it is demonstrably true. The spread of homophobia, capitalism, and racism is directly tied to the proliferation of Christian ideals around the world. We literally have historical records of Christian’s showing up in cultures and shifting their society to be more bigoted.

    As someone raised in a Christian household and who took part in many Christian activities growing up, I can assure you that most Christians don’t believe any of the shit in the bible.

    As someone who lives in a homophobic, racist society that has been the victim of explicitly religiously-motivated homophobic violence, I can assure you that you’re full of shit.

    Stop running defense for a bigoted death cult.

  64. tangoyango says

    “I was referring to the social beliefs in question – is, homophobia, in this particular example.”

    Again, Christian views on this subject are highly varied.

    Here’s a Pew research poll indicating a slight majority being in favor of accepting homosexuality. That’s a far cry from the universal bigotry you claim and a defining characteristic of Christians.

    https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/christians/christian/views-about-homosexuality/

    I bet even like the KKK…

  65. tangoyango says

    Whoops, last sentence should have been: I bet even less of them like the KKK.

  66. Porivil Sorrens says

    @74

    Again, Christian views on this subject are highly varied.

    Even the ones that aren’t outwardly homophobic belong to a group defined by it’s homophobic literature.

    Here’s a Pew research poll indicating a slight majority being in favor of accepting homosexuality.

    First of all, I trust the results of self reported surveys about as far as I can throw them. Sorry dude, that’s my field of study, I know how useless they are, especially on a topic as poorly defined as homophobia.

    Even if true, however, this just shows that the “slight majority” are feckless idiots that do nothing to stand up to their fellow Christians’ homophobia, given that we still live in an explicitly homophobic society.

    Stop running defense for a homophobic death cult.

  67. John Morales says

    tangoyango, um, the KKK is explicitly Christian.

    (“”[T]here are politicians in Washington D.C. working around the clock chipping away at our liberty, but thanks to the foresight of our founding fathers America has held out the longest against the global, race mixing, homosexual, anti-Christ forces working to wipe out White Christianity the way we have always known it.”
    — The Knights Party website” — source: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/knights-ku-klux-klan)

  68. consciousness razor says

    tangoyango:
    A slim majority is tepid in the first place, but your evidence for it is also not as good as you seem to believe it is. The Pew survey in your link breaks it down in various ways. Since you’re citing their data, do what they do and consider how it correlates with other responses.

    1) Those who say their religion is “very important” on one end of the scale and “not at all important” on the other. Homosexuality should be….
    “Accepted”: 56% / 2%
    “Discouraged”: 83% / 1%
    “Neither/both equally”: 74% / 1%
    “Don’t know”: 73% / 1%

    2) Those who attend services “at least once a week” on one end of the scale and “seldom/never” on the other. The latter group are nominally Christians, although they don’t fit your (somewhat prejudicial) characterization of Christians as people interested in going to services and listening to self-help babble and trashy music. Homosexuality should be….
    “Accepted”: 35% / 21%
    “Discouraged”: 64% / 11%
    “Neither/both equally”: 50% / 15%
    “Don’t know”: 49% / 18%

    3) Frequency of prayer is “at least daily” on one end or “seldom/never” on the other. Homosexuality should be….
    “Accepted”: 59% / 13%
    “Discouraged”: 80% / 4%
    “Neither/both equally”: 73% / 8%
    “Don’t know”: 73% / 5%

    4a) Source of guidance on right or wrong comes from “religion.” Homosexuality should be….
    “Accepted”: 29%
    “Discouraged”: 80%
    “Neither/both equally”: 48%
    “Don’t know”: 45%

    4b) Source of guidance on right or wrong comes from “philosophy/reason” / “common sense” / “science” / “don’t know.” In other words, these people didn’t answer “religion” like those above. Homosexuality should be….
    “Accepted”: 11% / 50% / 8% / 2%
    “Discouraged”: 4% / 28% / 3% / 2%
    “Neither/both equally”: 6% / 37% / 3% / 6%
    “Don’t know”: 4% / 38% / 4% / 9%

    What you see on a bunch of metrics are quite a few people who don’t take their religion very seriously, although they do self-identify as “Christian” for whatever odd biographical or sociological reason. I suspect that they’re generally not the sort of people who would make a big fuss about the title of this blog post. Some may be capable of reading and comprehending the context, then have no trouble understanding that it’s not about them.

  69. tangoyango says

    Porivil identified Christians as being universally homophobic. I presented evidence which shows him to be false.

    He dismissed it out of hand using a week appeal to his own authority. I guess any evidence contradicting his point of view is useless because he says so. He has no argument at all.

    Sorry, but Christians just are not the villains some people want them to be.

  70. Porivil Sorrens says

    @79

    Porivil identified Christians as being universally homophobic.

    You know that isn’t true, because you literally quoted the passage I wrote – “I claim that they follow a belief system that is directly responsible for creating and proliferating most of the social ills in society.”

    This is true, irrespective of the beliefs of modern Christians. That said, we live in a demonstrably homophobic society, so that is simply moot.

    He dismissed it out of hand using a week appeal to his own authority.

    Damn those sociologists and their “week” appeals to their field of study. How dare they question the validity of self reported surveys that boil a complex social issue down to “do you think homosexuality is wrong yes/no/maybe/unsure”

    Sorry, but Christians just are not the villains some people want them to be.

    True. Nonetheless, as PZ put it, they are indeed selfish, awful people and belong to one of the most hateful and harmful ideologies in history.

    Stop running defense for a homophobic death cult.

  71. consciousness razor says

    Apparently, the way this works is that we start with a very weak and nebulous standard of “acceptance,” then we ask people to report their answers, without considering what their actual behavior in everyday life is like.

    Not a great start. But I ran with it anyway, because you brought it to the table. That evidence suggests the “good” ones who are carrying water for the “bad” ones are mainly (1) those who don’t think their religion is very important, (2) those who don’t attend services often, (3) those who don’t pray often, and/or (4) those who don’t look to religion for guidance about morality.

    You found some people who are in a variety of ways the least connected to Christianity as an institution, an intellectual tradition, a set of doctrines, a moral code, a social practice, etc. Of course you can find such people. The problem is that you propped them up with a bullshit statistic, as if it were meaningful to say that they represent “most Christians” and as if an “acceptance” answer was somehow sufficient evidence that a person isn’t homophobic.

  72. Porivil Sorrens says

    You mean [shocked tone] that bigots don’t always believe that they are bigoted and might not answer as such on a self-reported survey?

    Color me surprised that the religion that uses “I don’t hate gays, I just think they’re reprobate sinners and if anything, I’m trying to help them by giving them the good word” isn’t full of people openly marching about in “I hate gay people” t-shirts, as if the only homophobic christians are Westboro-level cranks.

  73. lochaber says

    tangoyango seems remarkably similar to “wango tango”, for someone who claims not to be a fan of a pants-shitting child molester…

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