Oh, man, what a nightmare. I dreamt that it was November, and I had just unenthusiastically voted in the presidential election. Joe Biden had swept all the primaries, had picked some unmemorable, faceless white man as his VP, and bumbled his way through a few ugly debates. The Democratic party had successfully doused the flickering flames of progressive activism in this country, inserting their establishment apparatchik into the running for the highest office, and he was prepared to appoint a phalanx of bankers and insurance executives into his cabinet. On election day I voted for that stooge, dreading the next four years of either his toothy smug grin or a repeat of the orange fascist, and, while I was unhappy with either choice, my decision was forced. And now I was just waiting for the election results. I felt exactly as I did on election day in 2016, grim and doomed.
Then I woke up.
My doctor had warned me that my toradol injection would wear off after about 6 hours and I’d have to fall back on ibuprofen for my achey bones, and she was right. Ouch. So I just took some painkillers and am waiting for them to kick in, and thought I’d write up my horrible dream.
It was just a nightmare, right? I’m not going to look at the election news. I need to get back to sleep.
Get some rest PZ. Whatever they juiced you with must have made you a prophet though, because Biden just took Texas. Like less than five minutes ago. I kind of knew this was how it was going to go, but I still had hope. This just became a race about whether or not the anti-Trumps outnumber the pro-Trumps. There might be a few people out there who are legitimately pro-Biden but I guarantee they’re vastly outnumbered by the anti-Bidens.
The rest of us are going to cast our ballot in November for “Not Trump” and hope.
It’s 2004 all over again, except Kerry was a stronger candidate than Biden.
I think the Democrats just lost this one.
Yes, back to sleep Rip van Myers, I am afraid your nightmare is coming true.
By the way, I am well into the Downard and Wheat book – very detailed and thorough, and right up to date. Might be of use to your students. I wrote an Amazon review but it has not yet appeared, still there is an appalling one from a creationist.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation
—
Also, analgesics that actually work are great.
It’s not over yet. Biden’s lead isn’t insurmountable. We’ll have a stronger idea after next week, though. If the tides don’t turn again by next week… I don’t see a path for Bernie. He at the very least needs a strong plurality (and even that might not get him the nomination).
Note, though, I’m not voting for Biden just because if he wins the primary. He has to earn my vote. Medicare for all, free college, legalized marijuana… etc are all my compromise positions. The people he selects to be in his cabinet also matters. He also has to apologize for downright lying (he wasn’t active in the civil rights movement and he didn’t get arrested meeting Mandela). There’s also climate change and the inhumane wars. I’m not sure what number or combination will convince me, but there’s got to be something. Admitting to lying is 100% necessary or I just know there’s no trusting him.
If he’s not going to try to court my vote, I don’t see why I should vote for him. I’ll vote downticket progressive and leave the president field blank for all I care. My goal will be to make sure other non-president voters still get out and vote downticket to send a message. Not enough of us will, and that’s a real shame, because non-voters will just be ignored like they always are (except for Sanders).
And I don’t care that Trump is worse. A lack of standards is how Republicans got Trump. The party is now poisoned with his followers. The Democratic establishment is already toxic. Letting them pick the nominee and then rewarding them the presidency sends the wrong message. Again, if they don’t try to court my vote, I’m not voting for them. Especially since as far as I can tell Biden is running purely on “electability” without any substance. I’m not about to feed such an absurd self-fulfilling prophecy.
so… I’ll say what i said in 2016:
you’re apparently willing to sell half of america down the river, remove their rights, because you personally don’t want to fight, but also want to make a “statement”.
yeah, forget all those women who are quickly losing all their right, yes? what about your neighbors who look brown? forget about them too.
you’re willing to let them all suffer for your ideology, while you suffer…. what, exactly?
fuck america, it’s full of narcissists who are either fascist and ignorant, or pretend progressive and ignorant… like you.
Do you want to live in a country that’s at least somewhat recognizable as a democracy? Do you prefer a mediocre government over a dumpster fire? I was for Warren, but I will vote Biden with a song in my heart if its what it takes to get rid of Trump. Not voting against him is giving up. I won’t do that. Not in November, and not during the Biden administration when I’ll do whatever I can to advance progressive policies and candidates.
Suck it up and live to fight another day. We can start Jan.20, 2021. Be well rested, there’ll be a lotof work to do.
Glad I live in a deep blue state, since there’s not a chance in hell I’m voting for a moderate conservative that can barely say a single coherent sentence.
@4 – The problem with that line of thinking is that the Democrats don’t really care about winning. The best case scenario for most centrist Democrats is that they hold a safe seat and the Republicans control everything. Then they never have to actually do anything, they can just sit around wringing their hands at how powerless they are and making performative condemnations of the Republicans while enjoying a cushy job and the benefits of whatever tax cuts are being unwisely handed out. The more power they have, the harder it is to disguise their utter disinterest in actually doing anything. So the threat of not supporting their candidate has no weight. They are fine with Trump. He has cut their taxes and given them plenty to publicly wring their hands over and orate about the evils of. They don’t care if Biden wins or loses. Their only concern is keeping Bernie out.
If there is any solution to pursue, it is the join the DNC en masse and vote in their internal elections. The people who run the DNC, who make the rules that control all of this stuff, are all elected positions. Take those positions, and in 2024 maybe you can run a progressive candidate with the support of the party. The evangelicals did it with the Republican party.
That said, if the nominee is Bloomberg, fuck them all.
Elizabeth Warren should drop out now, but she will stay in late so she can back Biden. At that point she can say she’s backing him because he is the choice of the Democratic Party. Warren was always a party first democrat and an opportunist.
I would vote for Bernie, but he is an 80 year old man who recently had a heart attack. The stress of office will be too much. If his running mate ended up being someone like Alexandria ocasio-cortez in the general, I would happily vote for him.
Biden has dementia and is a really creepy dude and corporatist, so f*** him.
The selection really sucks this go around, it’s time to admit it.
Alas, I will write in Andrew Yang.
I bought this argument in 2016. When Trump won and Clinton lost I was pissed. I was super angry at all my friends whom I knew didn’t vote for Clinton (nor Trump) in the election.
The people who convinced me I was wrong were:
1) my female friend with cancer (dying of it in 2016 and Bernie-or-Bust and in remission now and still Bernie-or-Bust)
2) T1J
3) my Mexican-American wife
All the people telling me this and that about privilege have been white men. I assume, anyways, because they always talk about the people I’m failing in third-person. Note, also, that turnout among minorities was significantly lower in 2016 than it was in 2012. That wasn’t all voter suppression (it played a role, but it wasn’t more than 50% of the difference by any means). 2016 had worse turnout than 2012 which had worse turnout than 2008. Is Biden trying to fix the turnout problem? If not, spare me your nonsense. If democrats want turn out, and turn out for them, then they should actually try.
Also, if people of color show up like they did in 2008 or even 2012 for Biden, Biden wins. The cohort my vote is in is only necessary if it de facto includes minorities, and thus a coalition is necessary based on policies and thus Biden should come to our cohort. He should not be telling people, “Go vote for someone else.” (which he is literally doing). So again, spare me your nonsense.
I don’t understand how this is hard. This is a basic premise of democracy, holding the leadership accountable. They don’t get votes for free. “The other guy is worse” is a perfectly good argument… to convince me not to vote for the other guy, either.
The fundamental problem with the Democratic establishment is that they have a diverse coalition that wants different things, and their coping strategy for not disappointing anyone is to point to the electoral apparatus and claim that whatever comes out the other end in terms of policy is ‘democracy at work’. This is why they keep appealing to unity and reaching across the aisle: in order to never have to actually justify any policies, they need Republicans to buy into the same system.
The problem with this is that Republicans aren’t a diverse coalition any more. The era of the Big Tent is over. The Republican party is overwhelmingly white, neoconservative, and evangelical, and that’s a good 30% of the electorate. This means a couple of things: they don’t have substantial policy fights, because they don’t have significant differences; they see all Democrats as an out-group, which means they don’t respect us or particularly understand us; they don’t need compromise to get things done.
It also means, that if they faced united opposition, they’d be cactus. Unfortunately, Democratic leadership reflexively looks to Republicans to compromise with, under the mistaken assumption that Republicans have the same incentives, and that leads progressive members of their coalition to assume that Democratic leadership care more about fulfilling Republican policy goals than their own.
This is why you see a lot of progressives now saying that Biden is basically the same as Trump: neither one is going to try to achieve progressive goals, and Biden’s instincts will be to put his own goals on hold to compromise with Republicans.
I would love to live in such a country. But with money in politics as it is currently, I don’t. And Biden isn’t going to fix it. And even with money removed from politics, the system needs fixing. And again Biden doesn’t show much interest past less-than-bare-minimum in fixing it.
I don’t buy the argument that Biden as president proves a stronger democracy than Trump as president, either. Biden thinks the system is fine and all that’s really needed is beating Trump.
@8 – I’m down.
Though, I don’t believe that primarying out Biden in 2024 would be possible if he’s already president. Though, a lot of the work currently done already is in the democratic party, and focus in necessary. If, however, there’s reason to suggest that sticking to one party isn’t actually necessary, we should try to win seats in both parties wherever there’s a dearth of turnout.
Though, it does sound decidedly unrealistic to try to take both parties. If only we had the resources of the billionaires….
In any case, that’s why I’m still going to stay registered as a democrat for the foreseeable future.
Biden has dementia and a corporate dingdong in his mouth.
Warren is a fraud who will stay way later than she should so she can back Biden once he is “choice of the Democratic Party”. She’ll send him whatever delegates she has trust me.
Bernie is pretty great but let’s face it: he is an 80 year old man who recently had a heart attack. If he gets in the office he better have a solid VP.
There are really no good candidates on the Democratic side. It’s time to own up to that fact. Trump is likely going to win as incumbents most often do.
But what a powerful message we could send if we all got together on Election Day and did what we know in our hearts to be the right move given the circumstances:
https://tinyurl.com/ug4n858
On the plus side, at least Bloomberg did really badly.
@#5, Ichthyic:
You might have had a point if Biden hadn’t said, flat out, in 2019, that he would not make any substantial changes, said that he “loves Republicans too much” (his words, not mine), and then spent the last 6 weeks repeatedly telling easily fact-checked lies about his very-right-of-center record. (And, of course, if Sanders wasn’t getting vastly more support from minorities than Biden, even in the states where he’s losing to Biden overall.) He will unquestionably revive and pass the TPP, and then we’re all fucked for good to an extent which even Trump has not managed. I not only won’t vote for Biden (or Bloomberg) but unlike 2016 I won’t even be going to the polls to get the down-ticket races; if one of those two are the face of the party, then the party does not match up with me in any significant way and I won’t be trying to give them either the Presidency or the Congressional authority to back it up.
The Angry Cheeto doesn’t like it when people tell him “no”.
The judiciary has repeatedly been telling the Cheeto “no”.
The Cheeto has been packing the judiciary with unqualified zealots who won’t tell him “no”.
Does anyone sane really want to give the Cheeto four more years to remake the judiciary to suit him?
Anyone in this thread who thinks that Biden would be almost as bad as Trump is delusional. Even Bloomberg would be ludicrously better than Trump.
Anyone who thinks that withholding their vote from the Democratic establishment will “punish” the Democratic establishment and make them change their behavior next time is also delusional. If you care enough to protest vote, then get off your lazy ass, and go join your local Democratic party, and change it from the inside. That’s the only path to improving this system, and ideally changing election law itself to something like ranked preference voting, or in my wildest dreams party-list voting. Sitting home at protest voting and doing nothing else is about the worst, most selfish decision that you can make. Ditto for voting third party for president.
“All it takes for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing.” There’s more to this democracy than voting in the final presidential election. There’s more than just voting in the primary. Again, if you care that much to throw the rest of the country in front of the proverbial bus by protest voting, then shame on you, and get off your ass and actually takes steps that can have a rational logic path to making things better instead of your wildly delusional protest voting strategy.
C’mon, PZ. You weren’t having a nightmare. The real nightmare is in the White House right now.
The fix is in. The Hillaryites would rather Trump win than relinquish control of the party.
I’m not a good prognosticator. I voted for Warren. Candidates and football teams should pay me to not support them. My blessing is bad news.
Anyway given my horrible track record I have vision of Biden-Bloomberg (I’ll give y’all a moment to stop hurling into a waste basket…ok let it all out…ready?).
At some point in the distant past David Koch was Libertarian VP candidate. Didn’t that free him up to spend his own cash on the campaign? Then again maybe Biden might cringe at the optics. Or there is the not so much greater but expedient good of ousting Trump, perhaps opening him up to various prosecutions if his presidency is a protective shield. That’s worth something in terms of vindictiveness and retributive justice.
Not sure what I’ll be feeling in November. Kinda sick in the gut right now with Biden’s upswing. Given my curse maybe
I should support Tr…., HELL NO!
Fuck this shithole country and its population of garbage people.
Fuck them all.
If I don’t vote, either Biden or Trump will be president. If I vote, either Biden or Trump will be president. If I vote third party, either Biden or Trump will be president. So I guess I’ll vote for Biden. Fuck.
I’m curious about who will Warren endorse when she drops out.
Even if I understand her policies are closest to Sanders, I’d be surprised if she endorsed him.
Either she won’t endorse anyone or she’ll endorse Biden.
Regardless, Biden will win the nomination and lose the presidency.
In the end, our “democracies” seem to boil down to the mainstream media deciding everything, easily overcoming whatever the interests of the less powerful might be.
Case in point: people asking “how do you pay m4a” and no one asking “how do you pay for the Iraqi war”, or climate change not being even mentioned in the debates.
Who can scream louder wins.
I’m convinced that democracy can exist without preventing the powerful from using their money to amplify their ideas.
I’m convinced that democracy cannot exist without preventing the powerful from using their money to amplify their ideas.
@#18, GerrardOfTitanServer
So right! I absolutely feel totally motivated to vote out the racist sexist anti-abortion pro-war serial liar who refuses to deal with climate change, hates people like me, has obviously encroaching senility, and loves Wall Street! Down with Trump!
Oh, wait, I got confused for a minute — that was a description of Biden.
Why bother kicking Trump out if all we’re going to get is a palette-swapped version of Trump?
@#24, F.O.:
In a sense it doesn’t matter who she endorses, because — if the numbers I last saw turn out to be correct by percentage in the final count — in a few states, her share of the votes will get her no delegates but (assuming that the majority of them would have gone to Sanders) did prevent Sanders from beating Biden. She has already basically functioned as a spoiler, and there is no way to take that back.
Media is probably more to blame, but Warren playing spoiler is way more disappointing. I liked her once and thought she actually had a progressive cause at heart. Guess “unity” is a one way street from the left to the center. Probably the last chance to see a successful presidential run of a left candidate for some years now. Hope that Sanders grassroots organization is here to stay to get things done outside of electoralism.
It wasn’t a nightmare it was an optimistic dream.
What will happen is Biden will sweep the nomination, then Trump will sweep the floor with him in debates when Biden’s dementia will kick in (Democrats will minimize the number of debates to avoid that), progressives will be fed up and will not vote for the stooge, Trump will win in a landslide and Democrats will lose a whole generation that is currently voting democrats, instead they will be staying home or voting 3rd parties.
On the plus side in 2024 US will get their first female president. I’m not sure if designer of overexpensive purses is the perfect candidate, but there will be no one to oppose Trump in GOP and no one to oppose Republicans.
Democrats; remember that upswing in young voters and female voters that won back the house in 2018? With no Bernie and no Warren they will likely regress to traditional voting patterns. Biden is not a candidate they like or can get enthusiastic about. You needed those votes more that courting so called middle America votes you were not going to get anyway. Turnout is going to doom you in the presidential election.
@The Vicar:
I’m mostly curious to see if she’s the actual good politician many make her out to be, or if she’s just the establishment fake that Sanders stans say.
I agree with you at this point it’s not very important for US politics, but I’ve been getting a lot of mutually incompatible ideas from the people I follow and I look forward to establish some Truth (TM) in my mental model.
Other than that, Trump has already wiped the floor with “establishment” Republicans and Biden is no different.
@Ichthyic:
You are trying push your own definition and your own philosophy onto other people. There are many different ways to look at the concept of “right to vote”. What you are aggressively pushing, by calling people who disagree with you immoral, is strategic voting. In other words, you are saying that you must consider who other people are voting for when deciding your own vote. I’m not disagreeing with that, that’s a fine philosophy. However, there is also another way of looking at the process of voting that sees it as a personal right to choose what one feels without any regards for what others think. Think of it as a sort of “mental autonomy”: you vote for the person you like, without thinking strategically. Your vote is your vote, you decide, you pick what you think is best according to your own beliefs and so on.
And if you cannot accept that different people can have different reasonable views of voting, then fuck you dipshit.
her unwillingness to do the right thing has proven the Bernites right about that nihilistic scumbag.
My main hope is that this thread is just an echo chamber for a very small number of Bernie Bros who don’t represent more than a small fraction of Bernie supporters, and that (if Biden wins the nomination), most of them will end up voting in the election and will vote for the Democratic candidate. Otherwise we really are screwed. We may be screwed already, but certainly four more years of doing nothing about global warming will make our screwing much worse.
Biden loses to trump anyway.
This is an earnest plea for everyone to please, please approach this strategically.
Biden fucking sucks. I am floored that he was the last centrist standing – I would much rather have Booker or Harris or even Weird Amy as the “establishment” candidate, but fuck, here we are.
Biden is old as shit. Think of this as 4 transition years from Trump. RBG is not making it to 2024, so there’s at least one SCOTUS judge on the chopping block. Abortion is about to get fucked up. The ACA is about to get completely wiped out based on legal arguments that are so ridiculous, the people who filed the infamous “Moops invaded Spain” challenge think its spurious.
So, the status quo here, shitty as it is, is better – BETTER – than 4 more years of Trump.
There’s still time, maybe Bernie can gain back some momentum, but it doesn’t look good. Please, please, please focus on what can be salvaged from this.
@31 anna
The combination of abortion rights about to be eliminated and the VP choice will hopefully give women a clear reason to choose even Biden over Trump and the right wing.
As bad as trump is, I have yet to see a reason to vote for biden over him.
It’s at least not like bloomberg where Trump is clearly better. But there’s literally no reason to vote for him. None.
At all.
I see myself in november pondering not the question of whether I’m sending the party a message. They’re immune to communication like Ichthyic. But whether I actually give a single goddamn fuck about it.
@ikanreed
I’ll give you a list:
-RBG means next 4 years includes at least 1 SCOTUS
-Purging of fed government, replacement with Trump loyalists
-Executive action on a wide range of environmental policies – oil and gas leasing of federal lands, obliteration of waterway pollution rules
-Hamstrung rules requiring environmental impact for high priority infrastructure projects (IE, ND pipeline)
-Everything going on at the border right now
-Travel bans
-Destruction of the Dept of Higher Ed and other agencies as incompetent Trump loyalists take over
-Destruction of lobbying restrictions for executive branch officials
-Conversion of DOJ into the personal law firm/attack dog of the president
-capitulation to local sheriff
-slashing of our minimal safety net – food stamps, eg
-massive, unending tax cuts for the wealthy/corporations
That is a partial list. I could keep going, but the most important thing going on right now is the absolute destruction of the federal judiciary. If you actually care about the policies that Bernie is pushing – which I sincerely do – then you have to take very seriously the fact that it is now almost impossible to get any progressive legislation through the courts, even it gets through Congress. Meaning that another 4 years of Trump, you could elect fucking Noam Chomsky and have 55 Dem senators and nothing would get done.
And Biden fucking sucks. No argument there.
Show of hands: how many posters here are Russian trolls?
IOW
“Wah! Suppress the vote!”
Wipe off your bitter tears, suck it up, and go out and mark your ostracon like you actually care about democracy, like you can think several steps ahead and handle nuance. Then prepare to put your body on the line.
The only people who endorse demoralized progressive factions are racist, fascist, greed-headed Republican scum bags, their fellow travelers, and Putin.
Lead, follow, or get the fuck out of the way.
(And Trump better than Bloomberg? Ugh. No.)
The Vicar, #28:
Well, there’s still a long way to go. It’s even close to over for Sanders. But to amplify your point and explain the effect on the delegate math for those who may not understand it, here’s what I just wrote in the Bye-Bye Amy thread:
correction: “It’s not even close to over for Sanders.”
Just don’t want people to be too discouraged here. Nonetheless, that is the role Warren is playing.
Don’t totally disagree about Warren, but I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that all of her support goes to Bernie if she drops out.
I couldn’t find a current Warren second choice poll, but if you look over them historically, Biden ended up as a second choice for Warren supporters more often than Bernie did in most of them (may have changed as more candidates dropped out).
Whelp, Bloomy is out.
Honestly, in this hell we inhabit, him spending $100 million to call Trump a dickhead in every swing state is probably the only thing saving us from fascism.
@37
I’m sorry to be “that guy’ but WE DON’T FUCKING TIME TO APPROACH THIS SHIT STATEGICALLY!!! We don’t have generations to slowly ease in piecemeal social change. We don’t have decades. WE DON’T EVEN HAVE FUCKING YEARS!!! THE ENVIROMENT IS COLLAPSING!!! THE POOR ARE SUFFERING!!! THE RICH ARE LIVING IT UP WHILE CIVILIZATION FALLS APART!!!
It doesn’t have to be all. For that matter, some of Pete’s and Amy’s and even Joe’s voters might have drifted to Bernie, if they had been given the slightest nudge to do so by anyone except Bernie himself. Low-information voters who get their last-minute choices from the TV see tons of familiar people endorsing Joe, while there was no story about anyone standing with Bernie.
@40
And what makes you think that a capitalist shit like Biden is going reverse that trend?
@Akira MacKenzie
Almost everything I listed there were executive actions taken by Trump (save judges and tax cuts) that could immediately be reversed. Almost all of them involved turning back policies and agency actions that survived and were even expanded through Clinton-Bush-Obama.
I am confident that those are issues that would immediately be improved by a Biden presidency – shitty as it may be overall.
@consciousness razor
Yes, absolutely, that generated a ton of momentum for Biden.
I also am not completely certain Warren will endorse him if she drops out. I think it’s highly possible she could become a cabinet member in a Biden administration and make make a deal along those lines.
Warren staying in is certainly not helping Bernie, but I’m not 100% convinced her dropping out would help him much.
And with Bloomberg dropping out and dedicating his super-villain funds to Joe…I think it’s time to start thinking about how to salvage what can be salvaged from this fucking shitshow.
@47
Right, but “taking immediate, proportional, necessary action” isn’t a choice (or most likely won’t be).
@ 52
Then don’t make it choice.
Edit @ 53
Then don’t make it a choice!
I’m so fucking angry I can’t see straight.
@ 50
Right, just like the improvements we got under Biden’s previous Uncle Tom boss.
Jesus! You people are so gullible!
@Akira MacKenzie
I get your angst and I share it, but I’m not sure how you would like me to personally put Bernie on the ballot in November. Listen, my state’s primary hasn’t arrived yet. I’ll be voting for Bernie at this point (Warren’s performance thus far makes her clearly not viable).
But barring something incredible from happening, it’s going to be Biden vs. Trump. This is the worst case scenario (possibly other than Bloomberg), but that doesn’t mean there aren’t legitimate reasons to get out and vote.
And Obama was not a great president, but I just don’t understand this idea that nothing positive happened or that Biden will not be any better than Trump. Asserting that is a flat denial of reality.
What I sorta think:
@57
All very important points. Co-signed.
This is another Hillary vs. Trump shit choice. But understand that abortion is about to be rendered functionally illegal in most of the states in the country and this would not have happened if Hillary picked the last two SCOTUS justices. This shit is real and affects people.
It’s still early. It really is. Biden has better chances than Sanders for getting a plurality, according to 538. (65% vs. 34%) Their forecast has been very volatile since Iowa, and it’s pretty hard to say what may come next. But even if we take it at face value, it’s not “incredible” when something with a 34% chance occurs.
The kind of thing they can’t build into their model are the effects of Biden shitting the bed at every opportunity, with more and more actual attention and criticism focused on him (now that the field has narrowed to 2), while Sanders stays smart and focused. That’s not an incredible thing to predict — it will happen. The only real question is how much the media will bother to tell the story and how much of an effect it will have on voters.
“So angry… can’t see straight.”
Then your anger is wasted.
Hope you’re right. I will be doing what I can in my state.
@ 56
Because it didn’t!? Did St. Barry give us national health care? No, instead he created the ACA where we are now required to buy the health insurance we already couldn’t afford! Did he cancel college debt and make higher education affordable? No! He just came up with new payment plans for the debts we can’t afford to pay off in the first place! Did he stop the stupid wars of the Bush regime? No! Just sent fucking drones to do this country’s dirty work instead. Need I go on?
Each and every time a Democrat–Well, maybe not anymore since the current Democratic platform seems to be “THE REPUBLICANS WOULD BE WORSE” on every issue.–like Slick Willie or St. Barry comes along, they promise us change and progress. Then, as soon as they get the power they’ve been grasping for, they suddenly discover that there is just too much opposition and, in the name of pragmaticism and bipartisanship, compromise and deliver NOTHING. NOTHING that makes my going to my psychiatrist a prescription refill a less-than-major expense! NOTHING that get’s the Department of Education off my back about the loans I had to take out just to make myself marketable. NOTHING that that will help me move out of my house and away from my emotionally abusive father. NOTHING that reassures me that my retirement plan won’t be “work until the day I die” or that I can find another job at 45 when my present employer decides to be rid of me.
Just as we got NOTHING from Obama, Clinton, or Trump, I’m expecting we’d get NOTHING from Biden.
@5, I’ll simply say, there are times that a people deserve to swim in their own swill. It’s not nice, it most certainly isn’t pleasant, but it does teach a lesson to a society on swill generation and their expression of a willingness to swim in it. So, if they insist, I’ll allow them to happily wade into the swill and hell, I’ll even install a diving board for them to leap into the cesspool!
As for Biden, all that I can say is, “Don’t you think he looks tired?”.
He’s certainly of a more tempestuous disposition, compared to other races he’s won over the years, worrisome at times, due to a loss of filters.
I agree with PZ in #57.
Also on the agenda: we need to make a third party. The Dems want to be the centrist party for old yuppies, so let them do that. Maybe not in this election or the next, but soon enough, they will fail miserably or fold (back) into the Republican party where they belong.
It’s too late to do this kind of thing in 2020, but there has to be a party for the left. (I’m doubtful we could just flock to the Green party, but we can certainly join forces with them for something new.) In the meantime, while the Dems disintegrate as a party, the progressive ones currently in office can be decent allies.
@62 Akira MacKenzie
The ACA expanded health care to millions of Americans. The Medicaid expansion in the ACA was perhaps the most important health care policy since Medicare and Medicaid were implemented. It was fucked by a bullshit SCOTUS ruling, but was still incredibly important and good, even if you didn’t personally benefit.
The loan situation is definitely shitty.
This discussion, which I’ve had roughly 7529043857234 times since 2015, is so bizarre because I argue that whatever the faults of the Democrats, it’s still better to vote for them than the Republicans, and you (and others) respond by pointing out the Democrats are shitty.
Yes, I agree. The Democrats are shit.
But take the issues you listed and ask yourself what any Republican would do with them.
Look at the ACA – a case is currently in front of SCOTUS that will completely undo the law. No medicaid expansion. No staying on your parents’ insurance to 26. No protection against preexisting conditions…etc.
Look at what Betsy DeVos has done to loan repayment programs. You think you’re going to end up with some awesome repayment plans under the next 4 years of Trump? They are trying to eliminate the already threadbare programs. You may not have benefited under Obama, but there were important decisions made regarding, for example, people who were defrauded by scam colleges.
You aren’t going to get where you want to go by sitting this out and making it easier for Trump to win.
<
blockquote>The US has deep systemic problems. Biden will not address those at all. But he’d be better than Trump…
<
blockquote>
If he won’t address them at all, how is he “better than Trump?” Because Joe’s groping of women is less overt than Trump’s outright pussy grabbing?
@ 65
Yeah, but I’m absolutely not going get help from Biden either… THAT”S THE FUCKING POINT!!!
Your vote is entirely based on whether the president will unilaterally be able to address your personal issues in a country of 300 million people?
I think it’s possible Biden could pass some sort of public option. Not great, but a step forward (though it will likely be struck down by SCOTUS, now composed of right wing zealots because we didn’t elect Hillary).
I think it’s also possible that Biden enhances or develops new loan repayment programs, even if he doesn’t forgive them.
I can 100% promise you that both of those issues will be materially worse for you and millions of other people under 4 more years of Trump.
@ 60
And how should I spend my anger? Activism? That will get my ass tossed out of my father’s house so fast I would break several laws of Einsteinian physics. He’s made it perfectly clear on many occasions that, while I live under HIS roof, he’s the only one allowed to express political opinions. I dread the day he ever find out half the political shit I post online.
@doubtthat (#45)
That wouldn’t surprise me. I remember getting in a lot of discussions with BernieBros back in November and again in January who were bashing Warren, warning them of such stupidity. I told them they’d likely need Bernie to be second choice of Warren’s supporters if Bernie is to win and bashing her was going to make it more likely they’d go to Biden or Buttigieg instead. I wonder now how much of a negative impact those BernieBros had. :(
I’ve been noting in many comments that I have been leaving over at Mano’s blog that I was hoping I was overly cynical (as well as criticizing him for sticking his head in the sand for insisting BernieBros don’t exist when they indeed do)…but it seems I wasn’t. :(
@ 68
When a refusal to enact those programs detrimentally affect me? Fuck yes! “The personal is pollical.”
If that’s selfish, perhaps we should stop using heartbreaking anecdotes about other people who can’t afford health insurance or end up being bankrupted by their medical bills. It’s the same thing, only by proxy.
Unfocused, undirected anger prevents you from even communicating effectively. It is useless and self harming at best and downright dangerous in a clinch.
Tighten up.
I think what we saw yesterday was this:
Biden’s voters showed up and voted. The massive influx of young, energetic voters Bernie and his supporters have been promising didn’t show up.
From this, we know that we can count on women, minorities and old farts on election day. We don’t even know if Bernie’s voters exist. We certainly know that his base hasn’t grown since 2016.
We also know this–the orange shitgibbon will be the youngest life form in the race–and you know he’ll play that card. Never mind that he’s grossly obese. He’ll play that card. Whoever wins in November, it is extremely unlikely that the incumbent will be seeking another term in 2024. This makes the VP much more important than in a normal election. The Presidency ages you. That can’t be a good thing for an octogenarian.
@ 73
Then this country is a capitalist shithole and its equally shitty people deserve to suffer. Pardon me while I go eat a bullet.
The two party system sucks and is self-serving. They work together to make the rules and the result is the electorate gets to vote on what flavor of shit they what to shove down our throats every few years.
@70 Leo Buzalsky
Ah yes, that month when Elizabeth Warren suddenly became some combination of Ayn Rand and Ronald Reagan.
@71 Akira MacKenzie
And again, before the ACA there were millions and millions more people in those dire circumstances. It’s not that I don’t take your situation seriously or think it’s unimportant, it’s that I don’t find it a compelling reason to help elect the person WHO IS EVEN WORSE on those issues.
“Millions of people are struggling with high health care costs or lack of access. We need a better system.”
Totally reasonable and correct.
“Millions of people are struggling with high health costs and lack of access, this guy won’t fix it all at once, so fuck it, burn it all down spreading the misery to millions more.”
Not as good of an argument.
“…this guy won’t fix it all at once…”
Biden is a capitalist pig. He won’t fix it at all.
Biden probably needs help fixing his own hair.
1) Again, Trump’s administration is arguing in court, right now, a case that will wipe out the entirety of the ACA – medicaid expansion included. Not doing that is better than doing that. Biden won’t do it.
2) I would expect Biden to take efforts at strengthening the ACA. This could involve a public option, but will almost certainly involve reforming the subsidy system and the price control mechanism that has slowly been eroded by the courts and Republicans.
He will not succeed in instituting a universal system like every other functioning country on the planet, but it is just incorrect to say he won’t do anything to improve it. And he will not fucking torch it.
This is not my preferred outcome, but the choice between the world of Trump and the world of Biden is significant and obvious.
It was more than just a cheap shot in #79.
The establishment machine which is propping up Biden don’t give a shit, like you and I do, doubtthat. They win with either Biden or Trump sitting in the oval office and yelling at clouds.
Maybe you can still argue that Biden’s the less evil option, but you should be clear about the fact that you are voting for them and counting on them to do the things you’re saying, whenever you “vote for Biden.”
He’s not as rude as Trump, except to the proverbial lying dog-faced pony-soldiers out there, who totally deserve it. But is that really less evil? No, it is not.
He does not have weirdly-colored skin. Is that less evil? No, it is not.
He sometimes says pleasant things in front of cameras (sometimes). Is that less evil? No, it is not.
So which things are really on the line for us and which things aren’t? Probably some things are. But the party doesn’t really care, even if you and I do.
@consciousness razor
I think there are a sufficient number of very clear things on the line that are significant enough to warrant a vote for Biden even if he fucking sucks.
For example, as I said above, there is no way RBG makes it to 2024. Putting another reasonable justice in place doesn’t solve anything now, but letting another radical right winger in makes any improvement basically impossible for decades. Replace RBG with some federalist fuckstain and AOC could be the next president, you could have a supermajority in the Senate, and fuck all would improve.
But I think the Biden/Trump blurring is less about underestimating Biden – though I think that’s happening – and more about ignoring the avalanche of radical insanity that Trump has generated. The things he’s done to environmental protections and other agency actions are worse than even the Bush administration tried.
Most of those things are done by executive action or via agencies that are run by incompetent loyalists, so they can easily be undone with a switch in administration. This involves things like clean water standards and air pollution standards – incredibly important things for our lives.
So, I don’t disagree with your general take on the shittiness of what we’re left with and the shittiness of these Dem figures how somehow managed to pull the worst option out of a half dozen centrists, but I will not hesitate to vote for Biden (if he ends up winning) and will probably work on the campaign for him.
#40 doubtthat
Hey look, a list of reasons to vote against trump that don’t even include any meaningful promises by biden to fix those things.
@ 80
I’m sure that from whatever safe and fiscally secure position you and other’s on this little community get to enjoy, that hypothetical difference is “significant and obvious.”
For someone with chronic mental illness that require counseling and meds, trying to live garnished-paycheck-to-garnished-paycheck and a crappy high-deductible benefits package that threatens (another) bankruptcy if I get seriously ill, with an emotionally abusive father because I don’t make enough to afford rent, those subjective differences vanishes entirely. Whatever insignificant and cosmetic changes Biden may make to your precious Obamacare, or to the Clinton-era-gutted safety net, may make, it won’t help us for shit.
Check your privilege.
@83
I don’t see evidence that Biden has the prerequisite amount of functioning brain matter to vocalize such a promise, much less to keep it. Biden is effectively just being “Weekend at Bernie’s”‘d around by the people that ghost write his policy statements.
The point is that the party leadership fucking sucks. They are the ones you expect to do these significant things, although they have (at best) barely any reason to do them and many reasons not to do them.
They wouldn’t care if it was Trump/Biden, running in either party. This is what you don’t seem to appreciate. The idea that they are on our side was always illusory, but these days, they don’t even try to hide it from us. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what else to tell you.
As an aside, this is part of what makes the argument “but you see, centrist candidate X can ‘get things done’ within our corrupt system” so thoroughly ridiculous, as if it were supposed to be a point in X’s favor that they are in bed with all of the worst actors. Because that is exactly what they mean by it, if you bother to read the fine print.
CR,
OK, so help me out here. Bernie’s been running for President since 2016. He’s had 4 years to energize his army of discouraged voters. He even had input in setting the ground rules for the 2020 primaries and caucuses. and yet his performance in most of the Dem primaries was worse in 2020 than in 2016. So, where are all those voters he’s promised us.
I mean, black people showed up yesterday–despite having their polling places closed and moved, not being allowed time off from work. Hispanics showed up. Women showed up. Old farts showed up. That is what it takes. You have to show up. You have to convince other people to show up. You have to convince them that your candidate is the best candidate–whatever their particular concerns may be. That hasn’t happened with Bernie.
And quit with the utter, dumbass whining that Warren or Biden or even Bloomberg or Tulsi are just as bad as Darth Cheeto. They aren’t. The only reason you cannot quantify how much better they are is because you aren’t allowed to divide by zero. None of the Dem candidates rejects the scientific consensus on climate change. Non is even a soft anti-vaxxer. None of them will appoint incompetent judges just because they are recommended by the Heritage Foundation.
So quit whining. Make a better case. And if you lose, pitch in and fight for the fucking country, because if we don’t we are going to lose it. Give a damn about the kids in cages. Give a damn about folks who stand a much better chance of getting insured–or at least not losing insurance.
This is not about one election. This is about making sure we have a better choice in some election in the future.
#87
Bloomerg is worse than trump in every respect and if you think otherwise it’s because you’re a fascist with a blue armband instead of a red one.
Biden is not “worse than trump” except inasmuch as the harm of a trump administration is pretty much done, and democrats who don’t roll want to back crimes against humanity are culpable and the next republican will be worse.
Warren is the only lesser of two evils who doesn’t make things worse to vote for.
Get the trump you deserve.
@37
I’m sorry, but how are we going to make a “better case” to the American shitizen (sic). “Little Golden Books” on economics with pretty pictures and monosyllabic words? Puppet shows? Oh, and before you chide me for insulting the intelligence of the U.S. electorate, it’s impossible to insult what they don’t fucking have! If the average voter had any brains at all, we wouldn’t be in this position.
Further more, why should have to convince them at all? If democracy prevents vital progress, then to hell with democracy.
This is about making sure we have a better choice in some election in the future.
That’s absolutely no comfort to those who get to die before this glorious day arrives.
You’re a clown. Who did you think would bring out the vote? Oh, you thought it was Warren. Too bad you weren’t rooting for your dude Biden the whole time, because then you could’ve been right about something.
And you still don’t know about the existence of the millions of people who’ve voted for Sanders, who did so despite hours of long lines in Texas for instance. It’s not like we’re winning the South this year anyway, so who knows what you think yesterday was supposed to demonstrate….. But my advice? Pay some attention to the fucking election, dumbass. Maybe once CA’s done counting its votes, you’ll finally discover that somebody voted for Sanders.
@#87, a_ray_in_dilbert_space:
Rhetoric is meaningless. Action is important. Who cares whether they believe in climate change if they are unwilling to combat it — and Biden is unwilling to do so; he’s had plenty of chances to push for it, and has refused every time. Just because he says he believes in it doesn’t mean he’ll do anything. (Hillary Clinton was exactly the same.)
He doesn’t have to be an anti-vaxxer because he’s not going to get anybody healthcare. It’s like the old joke about how Hoover promised a chicken in every pot and two cars in every garage, but didn’t mention that most Americans would shortly be unable to afford pots or garages. If he’s not going to give us healthcare at all, who cares what he thinks is good healthcare?
Biden will appoint pro-corporate judges who will continue to erode civil liberties and throw the book at drug users. They’ll probably also be anti-abortion because he’s really, really noted for that, and although he hasn’t talked about it much lately it’s unlikely that he’s had a real change of heart.
The kids were already in cages under Obama — there were lawsuits against the Obama administration because of it. (They were not, it’s true, separated from their parents, but the cages? Yes.) The Obama administration lost the lawsuits, but renewed the contracts with the contractors who were throwing the kids in cages. So Biden certainly won’t do much there.
And speaking as somebody who has skin in the insurance game? Biden will do fuck all. He will make things worse, but unlike with Trump idiots who supported him will claim that he made things better because he’s a Democrat, and the Biden non-healthcare will become the new baseline that we’re supposed to support.
It’s really insulting to be told that it’s our fault that you’re supporting a protofascist. Did you know that the PATRIOT Act was based on a bill Biden wrote? Did you know he was considered too extreme in his fervor for the War On Drugs by most Republicans in the late 80s/early 90s? Did you know he called for a wall on the Mexican border years before Trump did? He really wants those jackboots you’re bent on letting him have.
I’m an anyone but Trump person. Anyone, including my neighbor’s little dog, is better than Trump
@86 consciousness razor
And again, this is not a point at issue. I agree they suck. The argument is whether they suck as bad or worse than Trump, and the answer is a resounding no.
I mean, you guys are trying this blurring of lines as there is a case pending in SCOTUS that effectively outlaw abortions in every state with R leadership. This is ONLY POSSIBLE because Trump nominated 2 justices instead of Hillary. Same shitty dem leadership, WORLD of difference for millions of women.
They are the same ones who did the ACA. The ACA sucks, but it’s better than no ACA, especially for the millions who rely on the Medicaid expansion.
This argument almost entirely revolves around people flatly ignoring what Trump has managed to do in office. Do you not realize what has happened to the federal judiciary? 4 more years of this and its over. You would need an armed revolution to make universal health care law.
Alright, man, this is drifting into straight up woo-woo world. Who is “they.” Because the Democratic leadership has opposed every action Trump has tried to take, but they have failed because they don’t control the Senate.
Clearly “they” care, which is why they’re spending all this time and money trying to get Biden elected. They may not care about the ideal things or even good things, for the most part, but all actual evidence points to Democratic leadership caring a lot. They fucking impeached Trump, even though they knew it would fail because of Republicans in the Senate.
@The Vicar (via Freethoughtblogs)
See, this is when I start seriously worrying about our future. Echoing bullshit right wing nonsense to support left wing causes is just not the way to go.
Thousands of unaccompanied minors showed up on the Southern Border in 2014. Obama handled it very poorly, thus the cages. These were temporary measures responding to an emergency. They were holding areas for 72 hours so they could find placement for the unaccompanied minors. You may remember this from the incessant Republican whining about “catch and release”.
Trump admin is taking full families who arrive at the border, taking the children from the parents, then putting the kids in cages. They are meant to stay there until they are deported. They are making children appear in court without attorneys.
This is the moral blurring that is frankly disgusting. Whatever criticisms you have of Obama’s immigration policy – and there are many to make – it is nothing compared to what’s happening now. ICE has been turned in a paramilitary hit squad that is violating state and municipal sovereignty to round people up.
No, Biden will not be doing this. If you actually give a fuck about what’s happening on the border – v.s using it as an argument on the internet – then you will aggressively support whoever the democratic nominee is.
Goddamn, we are so fucked.
@brightmoon
Weird how when that’s your standard that’s over and over what you get.
@83
So, you think there is no meaningful difference between the sorts of judges that Biden will nominate and those Trump has?
Honestly, this is just the voice of lost ignorance. Look at the people Trump has nominated:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-courts-judges-abortion-lgbtq-voting-rights_n_5d669025e4b063c341f8fdc9
These people are making decisions about every aspect of your life, right now, while you’re contemplating helping give Trump 4 more years of time.
Also ignorant is to look at that list I made and fail to understand that almost all of those measures overturned by executive order or administrative action by agencies were policies and positions that were either put in place by Obama or expanded. Yes, Biden will engage in executive action and agency action to roll those things back.
@94 ikanreed
But it’s not your standard, and yet that’s what you get, also.
@#93, doubtthat:
Actually, I wasn’t even aware of that incident at all. What I was aware of was that Obama (and before you nitpick, yes I’m using this as “the Obama administration, with what was eventually proved to be his awareness, did this”) tried to hold immigrants of all ages indefinitely, and got sued. They were also sued over the conditions of the internment camps — every since site which has been bad under Trump, which hasn’t been hastily constructed since he got into office, was also bad under Obama, and most of them were so inhumane that the administration was sued over the conditions (like that whole “keeping them in the cold without blankets” thing we were supposed to be so outraged over) and lost… but Obama renewed the contracts of every. Single. One.
And, of course, Obama deported so many people that Trump is still lagging behind, considered on a “by this point in Obama’s first term” basis. But he didn’t deport any of the people in Gitmo who he publicly admitted were innocent — and in a speech he gave early on, which gave a lot of civil rights lawyers a “did he really just say that” moment, he said that the reason he wasn’t letting them go home was because they would tell stories which would make the US look bad. (There was a really excellent writeup of it on Salon.com by Glenn Greenwald, IIRC, but Salon has purged its archives twice since then and just started trying to use a paywall, so I can’t link it up for you.) Fucking hell, he could easily have played the role of their rescuer, and told any accusers “hey, Bush and the Republicans did this to them, and I’m fixing that as fast as I can, see I’m really the Good Guy here, please help me and my party out so we can make sure they never get back into power” but instead he kept all those people locked up for the rest of his administration, and you apparently don’t find that either monstrous or ominous.
I’m also interested that you have no response whatsoever to any other point I raised. You jumped on that one because you thought I was referring to a specific thing you could debunk, in an attempt to distract everyone from the rest of the reasons not to trust Biden in the slightest.
@92
I mean, given that a significant amount of Bernie’s base are socialists, myself included, this isn’t really news. By and large, this is already the case. Electorialism is a tool, but it has its limits, and the kind of change we need to not die out as a species can’t happen at the “eh incrementally vote for slightly less shitty centrists over a century and maybe we’ll have a watered down cap and trade law by 2120” pace. Capitalism isn’t going to let people vote it out of power.
Pardon me, that was @93.
@97
It goes to show that my job is literally to travel to detention centers and represent aliens against deportation and internment, and over the span of 5 years I have yet to have a single client that was brought in under Trump.
Look… If he’s the nominee, I’ll do as I’m told–like a good dog–and vote for fucking Biden. However–if I may continue with the pet analogy–this dog requests that I be allowed to put myself to sleep afterwards.I doesn’t expect Biden is going to let me into the house and I don’t like sleeping chained up to my filthy doghouse.
The Vicar,
Golly Ned. You can predict the fricking future! Gee, why aren’t you a fricking billionaire because of all the Microsoft and Amazon stock you bought?
Yes, actions are important, but you have to give someone a chance to act. And–I know this is really hard for you–you have to support them while they are pulling together the political capital so they can act. And I am afraid that is going to take longer than 5 minutes, so it’s going to challenge you limited attention span. Maybe democracy isn’t your system of government, huh?
And something else besides actions matters right now–and that is stopping the harm that Darth Cheeto is doing with every day he stays in office. I’m confident that any Dem–no matter who–will at least start to do that.
CR,
Uh, dude, Bernie got 45.7% of the votes in CA with a total of over 2.3 million votes.
This year so far, he’s got 33.6%, with only about 1 million votes. Those are 90% totals. Doesn’t look good.
That doesn’t look like growth. Wanna try again?
Lofty Lefties seem to bring jack to the table.
Darth Cheeto? Grow up you fucking child.
Listen, if you call a millionaire in the most powerful political position on the planet playground insults, you’re a totally epic clapback winlord and are doing a praxis.
The boomer are fucking saturn eating his own children.
-The turnout was better this year compared to 2016. And it didn’t all show up for Biden, you dishonest asshole.
-You are (or used to be) some kind of scientist, right? Put your thinking cap on. There were more candidates, so of course turnout is divided up into that larger pool of candidates (even sizeable portions for Pete and Amy, who had already dropped out.) The dude already won the first three states in a row, which nobody has ever done in either party, and you say he fucking doesn’t have voters. Because you’ve got nothing but media-driven bullshit clogging up your head.
-You’re implying that moderates like you won’t “vote blue no matter who,” against the boogeyman. This is your real concern. But that’s a problem that people like you need to fix about yourselves. There’s very little I could do about it. I can basically just remind you that politicians like FDR and JFK and LBJ were not losing the country with their “socialism,” because what we’re fighting for only looks radical when your head is lodged so far up Trump’s ass that you forgot yourself.
Teens are still dying of type one diabetes due to failed crowedfunds, and Biden has no intent to do shit about it – not that he’s capable of it any more.
@98 Porivil Sorrens
That’s all well and good, but, again, right now, abortion is about to be made functionally illegal in most of the states in the country. This would not be happening if shitty Hillary Clinton and her crappy incrementalism had been elected.
The amount of damage this new federal judiciary will be able to do to every citizen is overwhelming. It didn’t need to be this way.
Whatever the pace of incrementalism was, it’s set back tremendously. I don’t see people factoring in the cost of actively going backward in their calculations.
The news is reporting that the DOW is up 1200 as Biden victories have boosted healthcare insurance company stocks…
That should tell you all we need to know.
@109
Where did you purchase your device that allows you to glimpse the timeline where Hillary overcame her immense unfavorability and somehow managed to sneak both legislation and a Supreme Court Justice past a congress that literally shuts down the government in order to avoid passing any legislation from a Democrat, no matter how conservative or full of concessions it is?
I would like own one.
doubtthat:
The first hit when I googled “Biden abortion” just now is Joe Biden’s dance on abortion policy:
Please take this constructively: of all the things you could’ve picked, don’t try to sell us his record on that, because it’s not persuasive. The tiny bit of a silver lining is that flip on the Hyde Amendment a few months ago. You should be thanking Warren and O’Rourke for that. And who knows if Biden will even remember any of this, next year or over the next 4+ years.
He’s also wanted to strip Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, “literally everything” in the budget. Because that’s how fucking radical he is. And he doesn’t support M4A.
So let’s just agree that “I won’t bar the use of any federal funds to pay for an abortion anymore, if I’m forced to take that position” is awfully weak tea for women who need real fucking healthcare.
@97 The Vicar (via Freethoughtblogs)
Right, so now we’re back to the Green Latern theory of executive authority.
Again, Obama was bad on the border. This is not the point at issue.
But comparing Trump to Obama, there are a number of relevant facts
-There was actually a massive influx of immigrants (including unaccompanied minors) during Obama’s term, specifically in 2014. The lawsuits you mention were filed in response to the handling of that massive influx.
-The Obama Administration did not have a ton of flexibility in response to the that influx due to laws that were passed under the Bush administration – Homeland Security Act 2002, Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act, 2008. These laws required the Border Patrol to take non-Mexican child immigrants into custody, screen them, transfer them to REfugee Resettlement, then HHS finds them a relative or long-term foster care. The influx in 2014 just overwhelmed the system.
-The law put Border Patrol agents in charge of migrant children – which is how the children ended up housed in Border Patrol processing centers, which are prisons, and then facilities on military bases. Obama proposed significant funding increases to help with this problem.
-The agencies responsible for long term care were dealing with more than 6x as many kids as they had beds for. Obama asked for $1.8 billion to help with this.
-Flores held that migrant children couldn’t be held indefinitely, so Obama tried to hold entire families. The courts ruled against that policy, so Obama stopped. When Trump’s more extreme measures were rejected, he then tried an executive order that would hold families until their cases were completed (could take years) and open more temporary facilities.
The bottom line is that Obama responded poorly to an actual crisis and was limited by laws and systems in place. He was further restricted in responding by Congress, who wanted more punitive and radical measures (and also opposed anything Obama was for). Trump created a crisis where there was none, radically increased the cruelty involved, and is now sending ICE into places (schools, hospitals) where Obama did not.
@consciousness razor
I get the strong impression that you are not understanding the gravity of the situation we’re in. There is a SCOTUS pending that could functionally outlaw abortion in most of the states in the country. This is not exaggeration.
You are once again trying to convince me that Biden is shit when I’m happy to admit he’s shit, but you seem to not realize that the worst case scenario – the worst possible case – is happening right now because we failed to elect another shitty Democrat 4 years ago.
Who gives a fuck about the Hyde Amendment? That’s like arguing about whether the windshield wipers work on a car that’s just driven off a cliff.
@111 Porivil Sorrens
Let’s say she wasn’t able to do anything. The seats replaced were Scalia and Kennedy. With no one nominated, that gives a 4-3 edge to sanity on the court. Even if Kennedy hangs on in the hope of a Republican in 2020, there’s still no way abortion gets made functionally illegal as it is right now.
@116
So now we’re just adding another level of hypothetical alt-history suppositions on top of the others. Neat-o. What if like, Anakin Skywalker didn’t kill all those Tusken Raiders, man? Shit would be wild.
My man, what are you talking about?
Scalia was already gone for the 2016 election. Meaning if nothing happens from that point on, there is no way this idiotic Russo case threatens legal abortion in the country. There is exactly zero alt-history involved in that step. It’s just history.
The second step is also something that happened – a justice who was a vote in favor of abortion rights was replaced with a red faced, beer swilling maniac eager to overturn Roe.
Are you suggesting it takes an active imagination to conclude that Hillary Clinton doesn’t nominate Bret Kavanaugh?
But maybe some good news on that score:
https://www.vox.com/2020/3/4/21164699/abortion-supreme-court-hopeful-june-medical-services-russo-chief-justice-roberts
I mean, fuck, dude, Russo is exactly the same case as Hellerstedt (just different states) that was struck down in 2016. Russo is only on the docket because two fucking whackos were added to the court.
Nah man, but like, you just have to wonder. Would he have even become Darth Vader if he let them go? That was like, the formative moment of his fall to the dark side of the force.
Suffice to say, I care so little about your little alt-history rambling that I’m just going to respond with my own. I live in the universe where she lost because a significant amount of people don’t like center-right establishment bigots.
So, Scalia isn’t dead?
The funny thing is that for all this unconvincing flailing you’re doing to make my very reasonable conclusion seem absurd, you’re engaging in the alt history.
Please describe to me a path to a 5-4 anti-abortion court today if Hillary wins in 2016.
Another way to look at it, what is the difference between Hellerstedt, struck down in 2016, and Russo, argued today? What do you believe changed between 2016 and today?
Nah, I don’t really care to. It’s 2020, and thankfully, Hillary Clinton isn’t president. Hopefully, we can avoid putting forward another center-right establishment bigot to lose against Trump, but that’s not really my call.
@Porivil Sorrens
Well, given your choice of analogy material and the awesome bobbing and weaving you’ve done to duck under this very simple question, you can be Red Team Leader.
Haha man, epic clapback. I’ve been owned.
Anyways the democrats are shit and there is no version of this where I vote vote for Biden, nor for Warren. You aren’t going to convince me with “Well yeah, the democrat candidate will kill x people, but the republican will kill x+1!!!”
The internet has ruined your brain. Can’t we just be joking around while having a conversation? Too bad.
Oh well. X is one less dead person. Seems like the choice to make if you have it.
Not really, because I fundamentally do not respect people who make excuses for establishment bigots. Any joking I made was purely intended for mockery’s sake.
Regardless, if you’re so whipped that you think a choice between 50 and 51 dead people is an actual choice, and that there’s any validity to electorialism when every single election in the last 40 years has boiled down to “Mass murdering republican vs Mass murdering democrat (who will be nicer about it)”, we have fundamentally irreconcilable goals and value systems.
Look, I’m still trying to process a possible Biden presidency too. But I’m not sure that it’s really so simple.
With the Dems in the minority, the can act like they “contain” the Republican threat, without really doing much to actually contain them. The last several decades haven’t been a story of “partisan gridlock” as many in the media like to present it. It has been a bipartisan theater production, starring a bunch of rich assholes all cut from the same cloth.
It’s a light satirical romp portraying how shitty they can make the country, without it erupting into an actual revolt. So you have meaningless “fights” that go nowhere and do nothing except compromise more and more to the wealthy. And you have bullshit impeachment “trials”, with almost all of Trump’s crimes left out and only the Ukraine/Biden bullshit left in.
Meanwhile, Republicans have been thumping on issues like Roe v. Wade for decades (along with the Dems from the “opposite” side), mainly just to get their base frothing, even in many elections when they know for sure that there’s absolutely nothing they could have done about it. There is also the media in the fourth estate, consisting of more of the same rich assholes, who have been hired to make the story more believable.
If you get yourself sucked in, as the plot constantly twists and turns, you can probably suspend your disbelief for a while. But the fact is just that these rich assholes are all on the same team. This is just about the only thing you could possibly mean when you say he’s “shit,” so don’t think I’m asking you to believe much more. But you really have to mean it. What follows from this conclusion won’t make you feel comfortable that the Democratic party will make things much better. They will try to make it look like things are better, enough to pacify us until the next election.
I don’t know if that’s really better. One argument for that I suppose is that it might shift some attitudes in the general population, slightly and over the very long term, which is what we’ve actually been seeing over the decades. But what has it really accomplished, as long people still vote against themselves?
Biden obviously didn’t. I was only saying that is one scrap of positive evidence that you could muster for the argument you were making. But now you’re trashing that, so …. okay, whatever I guess. I figured it would be better than nothing.
@Porivil Sorrens
So, legal vs. illegal abortion is a 50 vs. 51 difference to you?
I disagree strongly.
@consciousness razor
I just do not find your summation of the last few decades to be remotely accurate. I certainly share a great deal of your cynicism, but the nihilism is a bridge too far.
I mean, Democrats, shitty as they are, managed to pass a bill that expanded health care to millions of people. It has radically improved the lives of millions of people despite SCOTUS and R sabotage – certainly there are millions of more it hasn’t helped, but all R’s and we’re probably cutting Medicaid and Medicare, not expanding coverage.
Having health care and not having health care is a real, significant difference.
Here is a list of environmental policies Trump has fucked:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/climate/trump-environment-rollbacks.html
These rules are rollbacks of rules that were established under Obama and Clinton, mostly. Shitty Democrats, and yet a Republican has managed to make thing materially worse.
I don’t think Biden will do enough about climate change, but clean water and clean air are things that affect people’s health in significant ways.
Yes, I’m saying that the Hyde Amendment – which is just stupid stumbling block legislators have drafted laws around for decades now – is a meaningless issue when we’re legitimately deciding whether abortion will be legal or illegal. The Hyde Amendment is silly posturing. It allows dummies like Biden to keep abortion legal while pretending to be very, very concerned about it.
The key part is keeping abortion legal. In a universe where abortion is illegal, the Hyde Amendment is useless.
So, again, the point is that Biden, for all of his faults, will not nominate justices who want to make abortion illegal. This is much better than judges and justices who do want to make abortion illegal.
My continuous, non-medication induced nightmare is Biden looking like a befuddled, doddering old man in his debates with Trump, who only has to be his usual malevolent self. After November the nightmares will end, but the Trump catastrophe will continue unabated.
No, but that’s because I think that your concerns about Russo not commensurate with the actual risk. Even assuming a worst-case scenario where they actively decide against precedent, it would not have the force to overcome Roe v Wade, nor would it necessarily apply to other, dissimilar laws. Further, if the SCOTUS did blatantly decide against precedent for partisan reasons, the proper response should be to alter the system that makes that possible – something that I remain unconvinced electorialism is capable of achieving. Democrats are famously averse to challenge government corruption when they might use it to their benefit later.
@Porivil Sorrens
If the law at issue in Russo is allowed to stand, states can (and immediately will) use pointless rule making to render it impossible to run an abortion clinic. It will the equivalent of literacy tests for voting (impossible to actually pass).
Now, as the article I shared pointed out, evidently the LA attorney did such a shit job arguing, Roberts may strike the law down, but there will be more attacks on Roe.
And your only response is some fantasy about radical system overhaul. Who is going to be performing this overhaul? How is this going to happen?
Is your position that I should just let Trump win because someday, if I wish on a shooting star, a Revolution will take place?
@Porivil Sorrens:
Can you please define “electorialism”? I’m struggling to understand what your argument is here.
I know you’re a lawyer, so you should know that controlling precedent on abortion is no longer Roe v Wade, but rather PP v Casey. In the event of overruling PPvC and replacing “undue burden” with some other standard that returns vastly more discretion to the states (leave aside simply overturning the right to abortion altogether, which I think is possible – if not in Russo, then in some other upcoming case that will soon be on the docket), the only way to “alter the system” to overturn the decision and make another, similar outcome impossible in the future is with a constitutional amendment.
Yet you say you’re “unconvinced electorialism is capable of achieving” such changes to the system. I would say that I am convinced that electorialism could not possibly achieve a constitutional amendment – it’s just a different thing. Which all leads me to believe that I’m probably misunderstanding what you mean by “electorialism”.
Care to help out your readers so we can understand your argument?
@134
No, my position is that the amount of work and money we sink into electorialism could be better spent on mutual support and direct action, as the former has done jack all to address the actual fundamental problems with our society, and I am unconvinced that it is even hypothetically possible for it to do so.
@135
Nah. Not for you, at least. The amount of effort I am willing to expend on answering you is the exact amount it took to write these three sentences.
Yes, the expanded it to millions by mandating everyone buy it then taxing them when they couldn’t.
How progressive.
https://twitter.com/aishaismad/status/1235236385222799366
That plastic indian shit cost us texas, almost certainly. There must be reckoning for this as soon as a primary is possible.
Crip Dyke @ Porivil Sorrens:
I bet “ambulance chaser” is a more apt description in this case. Those poor “aliens” (note the despective way of addressing them, probably under a “legal talk” excuse) are getting scammed.
So, you’re seemingly actively encouraging text anarchy techniques, and simultaneously discouraging voting properly. Please remind me to never take anything that you say seriously ever again.
There’s terms for that kind of thinking. “Textbook delusional” is one such term that immediately comes to mind. You know the story – what do you call someone that keeps doing the same thing, seeing the same result every time, and expecting a different result next time?
You’re asking me to respect willfully and openly irrational decision making when it can have a direct impact on my life, and the lives of many other innocent people. My response: Hell no, and fuck you.
@134
“Ambulance chaser” would imply that I make crazy money doing it, when I’m salaried by the office and the detainee themselves don’t get charged a cent.
I’m sorry for using the term used in the field out of convenience? If you think this is somehow me being a secret anti-immigrant chud, you are just a bad faith actor.
@140
I’d say the same, but your unhinged ranting on atomic energy has already made me consider you an irrelevant crank.
To Porivil Sorrens
My “unhinged rantings” are simply what the leading mainstream climate scientists of the IPCC are saying. Not my fault that you’re a science-denier.
@Akira MacKenzie
It is amazing how invested you are in ignoring the Medicaid expansion. That expanded health care to about 8.6 million people.
I just find it fascinating that people who profess to care about Sanders’ policy ideas so casually waive away 8.6 million people, all of whom are struggling financially – it’s why the qualify for medicaid – getting coverage.
But they’re not you, so fuck em!
CR, Ah, so the folks that voted for Bernie are for him only when there’s no one else voting. Good to know.
I’m guessing logic ain’t your strong point.
@136 Porivil Sorrens
So, let Trump win, then protest in the street so that…something happens. Like Trump sees all the people and runs out of the White HOuse like Scrouge on Christmas Day promising to do better?
Diagram this out for me.
@doubtthat
Democrats had the Presidency, the House, and nearly a supermajority in the Senate.
They created a bill that was basically the Republican healthcare plan in the ’90s.
We could already have had single-payer healthcare, but you think trying to salvage ACA is worth voting for Biden.
Spare me your nonsense.
The Supreme Court isn’t an argument that wins unless Democrats have the Senate. Hillary Clinton wouldn’t have had it if she won, and then Republicans would’ve gained way more seats during 2018 and kept the house. Then in 2020 either they get their Republican President, the house, and close to a super majority, or they wait another 4 years and take over local governments even more (See Barack Obama Won The White House, But Democrats Lost The Country).
But we’re not even talking about Hillary Clinton now, we’re talking about Joe Biden. A man picked to sway fears of Obama being too liberal. A man explicitly saying that Trump is the problem, not the system, not the Republicans. A man basically planning to run the country like Obama did.
But Joe Biden won’t be as good a president as Obama (and Obama, charismatic as he was, wasn’t really a very good president). He won’t do as good a job. He will not start with the advantage that Obama had. If Biden wins, it might not even come with a Senate majority or House majority. Biden will not fire up a base to stave off mid-term losses. So those losses will come.
He won’t get to pick a Supreme Court seat unless his win comes with a senate majority. And honestly, if that happens, this whole thread is moot because he’s winning by a sizable margin if Democrats are getting a Senate majority. Otherwise, he won’t get to pick judges, just like Obama didn’t. The reason Trump is able to fill so many seats now is that Republicans refused to fill Obama’s picks. Biden won’t fight this just like Obama didn’t fight this.
Nothing he has said or done in his bid for President right now suggests otherwise. He’s a net-negative that doesn’t solve the Republican problem, and gives them a chance to fester again like they did under Obama.
@147
If you think I meant “protest in the streets” by “mutual support” and “direct action”, you misunderstood me. I mean actual, disruptive striking that shuts down industries, not orderly walks along pre-approved parade routes.
I’m not even just talking about a general strike. Just something as localized as a teamsters strike in parts of Los Angeles would fuck up commerce all across the country. Hell, the Writers Guild caused millions in damages with their strike, and that led to widespread reform in the industry.
Irrespective of who is in the White House, there is a level of public agitation that can’t be overcome without getting to the point of carpet bombing unions. if that is actually an option on the table, you’re already in a dystopian rogue state and no amount of voting will change that.
Furthermore, your idea that I’m saying to let Trump win is a straw man of my position. I personally won’t vote for Biden because I live in a deep blue state and the Dem nominee will get our electoral votes either way, but if you feel comfortable voting for an actively decomposing conservative running as a Democrat, feel free.
I just think we should apportion more time and money to projects other than playing the rigged electorialist game.
1) The ACA dramatically expanded health care, including to 8.6 million impoverished people. It was not a great bill, but it was a definite improvement. If we hadn’t elected Democrats, please describe to me who would have been passing universal health care.
2) Scalia and Kennedy were the open seats. Even if Republicans just blocked everything, it would be 4-3 team sanity. If Kennedy hung on waiting for an R president, then it’s tied, but Kennedy was a vote, generally speaking, for reproductive and LGBT rights. So, doing nothing would have been immensely better than putting two fucking whackos on the court
You are also ignoring the flooding of the federal judiciary by a tsunami of horrible people. It may not be salvageble now, but 4 more years and it will be a generation before any remotely progressive legislation survives legal challenges. But you sure taught those establishment dems a less by not voting for Hillary!
3) We’re talking about Biden, but the consequences of abandoning Hillary are relevant as we are now in the exact same position. Biden sucks, but he is in every way better than Trump. Leaving a SCOTUS seat vacant is better than letting Trump pick another one.
So, what is your plan? Trump wins and…what? Suddenly everyone votes for Bernie or AOC or whoever in 2024? We just watched this happen. Anyone who still believes that Biden or Democrat X is indistinguishable from Trump simply has not paid attention to what has been happening. It is a stunningly ignorant statement.
As for the people saying things like “grow up” or “if you want to make change, volunteer and/or change the DNC from the inside”: did you know that you can be a registered Democrat, volunteer and donate in the primary process, vote in the DNC elections, try to do that change from the inside, and still not vote for Biden?
It’s crazy, I know.
My goal is not “Not Trump” (it’s a necessary but not sufficient condition). My goal is leadership and a country that’s actually for the people and not monied interests. Biden is not a stepping stone towards that reality. He’s another step in the dance that ebbs and flows slowly away from that reality. I saw it with Clinton to Bush to Obama to Trump. It’s not a cycle I’m interested in perpetuating.
I’m only in the party now because it seems more likely to take over one of the parties than it is to have a new party supersede one of the current ones.
@Porivil Sorrens
Who will be doing this striking? The same people who can’t be bothered to vote?
So, what is your recommendation to people in swing states?
@ksiondag
Please explain to me how you pass progressive legistlation that weakens the monied interests after 4 more years of Trump judicial appoitments.
@152
The workers and unions who we would theoretically be spending our time reaching out to and financially supporting. Class consciousness can be spread, and if can spring out of centuries of literal feudalism, it can definitely spring out of 70 years of increasingly weak red scare propaganda.
Vote for the dribbling mushbrained conservative invalid of your choice, based on your own moral determination.
@Porivil Sorrens
Why have you not been doing this up until now? What is stopping you? What are you waiting for?
This is not inconsistent with voting for the less shitty candidate.
Also amusing that for all of your bluster, you’re just punting on the implications of your position – hiding behind the other people in your state willing to do the right thing. Such a cowardly stance: Biden wins, hey, you didn’t support him and you get to jerk yourself off thinking about all the dumb things he will inevitably do; Trump wins, hey, not your fault either, you were in a blue state and your vote didn’t count.
Cool how everyone else will do the work for you.
@150
You misunderstand. Democrats had a chance to pass universal healthcare, but instead just immediately caved to Republicans who proceeded to do what they would’ve done anyways. That what they did is better than nothing is meaningless. They should’ve done more, and their failure to even try means that we’re replaying this nonsense a decade later.
I did vote for Hillary. But your alternative reality where a Hillary win means a Supreme Court seat is not even close to fact. Kennedy waited for Republican president to retire, so yes, he would’ve waited. Kennedy also routinely allowed TRAP laws to get past the SC, which is making abortion illegal in all but actual ink. Which is what actually matters.
Leaving a SCOTUS seat vacant doesn’t mean anything if it stays vacant until the Republicans retake power. If we don’t find a means to actually start moving in the right direction, then the game is already over. And again I don’t see a Biden presidency as actually moving in the right direction.
@
No, they did not. They barely got that bill through. They did not cave to Republicans, they had internal squabbles – Bart Stupak, Ben Nelson – Blue Dog Dems slowed it down, but Nancy Pelosi eventually got it through.
Do you honestly believe that if Ben Nelson wasn’t the Senator from Nebraska, he would have been replaced by Noam Chomsky? He barely won, and had he not won, there would be a Republican, and not even the ACA.
Once again, I am fascinated by someone who seems to profess belief in Sanders’ ideals so casually dismissing the lives of the 8.6 million people who received health care under the Medicaid expansion. It was very not meaningless to a fuckton of people. And that’s not even counting the folks who benefited from the end of bias against preexisting conditions, were able to stay on their parents’ insurance toe 26…etc.
No, that’s not all that matters, but again, your math is off. With Kennedy, the court becomes 4-4, with Kennedy playing his swing roll. Now it is a STRONG 5 to 4. Doing nothing would have been better than what happened. This is so obvious that it’s honestly stunning someone would try to make that argument.
You are making a massive assumption that they would have been able to keep it open during the entire term. I have no doubt the would have tried, but that is actually a process that we don’t know the answer to, unlike the very simple case that it is bad to have Brett Kavanaugh on the court.
@ 153
Again, you misunderstand. Even if I believed that Trump was definitely a better path toward my goals, I wouldn’t vote for him. But I don’t believe that. I am simply unconvinced that Biden will achieve superior results in either the long-term or the short-term.
My votes are purely on my having standards re: the competence of the person I’m voting for and the policy-goals of that person. Biden fits neither of these criteria. Hillary fit one and was being reluctantly (but successfully, I think) pushed towards the policies. Though honestly I didn’t have this philosophy at the time. I could see myself voting for Hillary in 2016 with my current philosophy though. I also think that maybe she’d be willing to challenge Republican blocking of even voting for a SC pick. Would she be successful? It’s unknown. Probably unlikely.
But for the sake of pointing out your nonsense:
Please explain to me how I pass progressive legislation that weakens the monied interests after 4-8 years of Biden failing to appoint justices (or even if he did, justices that will further cement the rights of monied interests).
Not only that, the assumption is that an empty seat is either worse or no better than putting Kavanaugh on the court.
Electing Hillary wouldn’t automatically have meant that she would have controlled Scalia’s replacement, but it 100% FOR SURE means that Donald Trump would have gotten zero nominations.
@ ksiondag
Then I would recommend digging into some specifics. I posted above a big list of executive actions and agency decisions made under Trump that have massively degraded the envirnoment (a simple google search will reveal similar evidence about education or housing policy or anything else you care to search). These are largely done by overturning gains made from Clinton through Obama. Biden will (1) put competent people into those agencies and (2) undo that executive action. That is a superior result.
Honestly, the only way you can possibly hold your stance with respect to the environment is to be blissfully unaware of the damage Trump has done.
See, this is very easy for me – at every opportunity, vote for a Democrat, even if they are a shitty Democrat. The same reasoning I’m using for Biden over Trump works for D over R in every case. If shitty Joe Manchin is your senator, vote for him so we gain control of the Senate. Work to improve the quality of the Democratic candidates in primaries and convince good people to run. But every time you are given the choice, vote for a Democrat.
Allowing R’s to win on any level because you aren’t head over heels for the D results in what we have now.
@159
Exactly.
@doubtthat
I was about to continue this dance, but it’s getting late enough that I may well keep myself up again thinking about this nonsense. I will instead let you know that I am ruminating on what you said, and wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. I do not think I will return to this thread and I consider impolite to try and have the last word in an argument.
And further, I think I will simply concede more-or-less all of 157, though I still have my disagreements over historical and alternative reality. A few of your points are solid, and arguments I have would be semantic and/or a difference of opinion on what effective strategy is, at best. I’ll read what you have posted thus far but not respond further.
@155
Well, I described a group action, so this question is just a category error like asking why I’m not having a one person conversation. However, I do take part in community organizing. Hence why I’m a member of my local DSA, among other groups.
Never said it was. I said that people should but more money and focus into direct action and mutual support. I do so, while still voting when it’s consistent with my moral values. As I’m not in a swing state, that includes keeping my vote to myself.
Obviously, I disagree on it being the right thing. Hence every other post I’ve made thus far. I also don’t really care about the idealist argument here. If my vote has zero impact on who my electoral college votes for, my action or lack thereof is materialistically irrelevant.
@Porivil Sorrens
Right, but you’re making an argument that we should just let Trump win because the way to improve things is by collective action. I’m a huge fan of collective action!
But as a reason to let Trump win, it makes no sense. How is another 4 years of Trump going to make this collective action more likely to happen? Are they even related? If they are – if there’s some causal connection between 4 more years of fucked up nonsense and a resulting mass uprising, please diagram it for me. If there is no causal connection, then we might as well all vote for the massively less shitty option so that life is marginally better until this mass uprising happens.
Your position is either an unexplainable deus ex machina or a total non sequitor.
Who should be spending this money? Who should be doing this organizing? Why isn’t it happening now? Why would 4 more years of Trump help this cause?
My man, you are making the idealist argument, here. You are interpreting the vote as one of personal expression and personal purity. Mine is the position of cold reality – take the best option that actually exists. I fully recognize that the guy I’m going to vote for sucks. But I also recognize he sucks WAAAAAAAY less in easily demonstrable ways than the other option.
You are asking me to, for example, ignore the health coverage of 8.6 million people on Medicaid and millions more benefiting from insurance standards because someday someone will do the work for you to create a utopia. This is not rational or strategic – it’s fantastic thinking.
@159ksiondag
Indeed. I think this discussion is important. I’m glad you engaged with me.
You’ve put a lot of weight on that number. (Not sure about the source, by the way.) What does it mean to all the people in states which were able to reject the ACA Medicaid expansion, for example? Doesn’t it seem appropriate to balance that with the millions who’ve been left out in one way or another? Or do you really think that there is only this one number?
And for that matter, couldn’t all of the states reject it, instead of about half of them? What exactly is his position on the possibility of that number becoming zero million people, given that he’s wanted to slash Medicaid in the past? Does he even have coherent positions about anything anymore, or does he just have the fact that many people know who he is?
How about the cost of the Biden-supported war on terror and all of their other endless wars and “military actions” going back to the 1970s? I don’t mean just U.S. troops who suffered and died, but all of the other human beings as well. Shouldn’t we subtract that from your figure? Or should we ignore it?
Via Glenn Greenwald, here’s a tweet with video of Biden, in Oakland on Super Tuesday (1:36), when confronted by a couple of veterans about this.
Answer: his dead son, now fuck off.
A reply to that tweet, with a youtube video (3:08):
I should also mention his legislation supporting the V.A. and so on. I’m not sorry that this isn’t a supportive contribution to the Joe Biden apologetics fest that you’re currently running. But I don’t think it’s the right time to do that, if it ever will be, given that he’s not actually the Democratic nominee.
@164
<
blockquote>Right, but you’re making an argument that we should just let Trump win because the way to improve things is by collective action.
My man, I’ve explicitly denied that as a straw man like twice now. Don’t let Trump win, you vote how you want. My vote doesn’t matter, so I’m not going to vote for Biden.
While this isn’t the argument I’m making, almost every successful socialist uprising was born out of extremely repressive social systems paired with extreme economic downturns. Negative societal conditions lead to a more agitated populace, which in turn leads to an increased willingness to engage in direct action.
That said, I’m not a dipshit accelerationist, so I’m not arguing that we should let Trump win. I think the negative downturn that will lead to the proper conditions are more or less an unavoidable result of capitalism running its course. We don’t need to speed it up by voting for Trump.
The groups in question should spend it, in accordance with the votes of the members. Ideally, everyone would be doing this. It is happening now, hence why my local DSA helps to set up strike funds for unions. I’m arguing it should happen more. I’m not going to respond to the last one, because I don’t support voting for Trump.
I am doing no such thing, and I’m going to stop responding if you keep attributing that position to me. Vote how you want. That’s your call to make.
I just think we should as a society apportion more time, effort, and money into direct action, because I do not believe that electorialism is capable of making the kind of changes I have as a goal.
@166
Now you’re making my argument for me. Why did Medicaid not expand to those states? It was in the ACA originally, then something happened. Was it Democrat elites getting together and canceling the expansion?
No, it was a radical majority of conservatives in the Supreme Court – there because a bunch of people thought there was no difference between Bush and Gore or that John Kerry didn’t send a tingle up their leg. Thus, the ACA – weak as it was – was made even less effective.
Of fucking course I think about those millions of people. But the choice (in all likelihood) in this election will not be between the status quo and universal coverage, it will be between this sort of shitty status quo and nuking the entire thing.
Biden has consistently run on expanding the ACA.
See, this is just doesn’t follow the point. Again, your choice is not between Biden, who was an element in all of those decisions if not the most important variable, and someone who will end all of that, it’s between Biden and a loose fucking cannon who could, on a whim, start an even more massive war.
Once more, you are arguing that Biden sucks – which I agree with – and ignoring the actual point at issue.
Yes, a combination of basic facts about Biden’s position and programs like the ACA + pointing out the seriousness of Trump’s destruction of the marginal gains we’ve achieved = Biden apologetics.
Again, I’m not saying vote for Biden over Bernie, I’m say vote for Biden over Trump. You have provided exactly no reasons to allow Trump another 4 years, even if you’ve made a good case that Biden sucks.
@Porivil Sorrens
So, you are saying that everyone in a contested state should vote for Biden (if he’s the nominee) because that, in fact, is the only way to deny Trump another term. Then what about my position do you disagree with?
In American history, though, the most successful direct actions – Civil Rights Movement being the clearest example – all required some level of cooperation with elected government officials. Imagine a world where Nixon is president instead of Kennedy and then Johnson (who were both fucking shitty on Civil Rights, but light-years beyond Nixon and, god forbid, Goldwater).
You needed direct action, of course, but needed courts to toss out segregation and then back up the Civil Rights Act. You needed a Congress and President to sign the laws. You needed an Executive willing to send federal troops to enforce those laws…
I don’t see the model beyond full scale revolution to accomplish any of the Sanders-esque goals (which I largely agree with) that doesn’t involve spending a long time electing a lot of shitty Dems to avoid filling our government with even worse Republicans.
Cool, I’m glad to hear that. I agree. The way this occurs is by electing Joe Biden. It’s a binary choice.
I also agree with this. 100% on board.
But again, this can happen with Joe Biden as president, and, in fact, he will be generally nominating judges and filling the NLRB with people more sympathetic to unions. If you want to strengthen unions, you should be eagerly supporting Biden in this general against Trump. And I fully acknowledge that BIden does not have an awesome track record with unions. But there’s a difference between someone who isn’t your best friend and someone who tries to kick your ass every day at recess.
And I agree with this completely. Elections may not achieve the outcomes that direct action could, but elections can sure as hell destroy the ability for direct action to occur.
And this is the rub – if Democrats are elected at every level, that will not solve the problems it seems both you and I would like to be solved. But it does create an environment where that direct action could occur and generate achievements. Gay marriage under Obama is a perfect example – both he and Biden opposed it in the 2008 election, but were wiling to be pushed by activists. John McCain would not have been.
Similarly, a Biden administration isn’t going to pass legislation that fixes our problems, but he’s also not going to send ICE in to break up farm worker strikes. He’s not going to systematically dismantle public sector unions. He’s not going to fill the NLRB with people hostile to labor…etc.
@169
No, I’m saying to vote in accordance with your own moral determination on the matter.
We aren’t talking about the same kind of direct action. What I’m referring to is direct action as a way to empower the working class enough to overthrow the upper class.
Demonstrably untrue. Direct action has been effective under some of the most horrific tyrannies in history. It was effective in Nazi Germany. Biden winning is not a necessary condition for people to engage in direct action.
Demonstrably not. If starving serfs or people under Nazi occupation can manage it, people can manage it under Trump. Not that I’m saying Trump would be inconsequential, but I absolutely reject the idea that direct action would be impossible.
Except not. People can engage in direct action irrespective of the things you are describing, and have in the past.
Direct action occurred far more during the gilded age than it does now, and employers don’t currently hire mercenaries to shoot strikers.
Also, I’m not talking about like, striking to get legislation passed or whatever, you’re still thinking like an electorialist. I’m talking about engaging in economic terrorism in order to weaken the government and empower the working class. My proximate goal is no US government as it exists now, not like, some legislation I want.
@Porivil Sorrens
In the context of this election, anything that is not a vote for Joe Biden, should he win (vote for Trump, not voting, voting for third party…), is an action contributing to 4 more years of Trump. So, either you vote for Biden or you de facto support Trump.
But anyway, I think I’ll end my responses here. You have some idea of a revolution that I don’t find particularly lucid or reasonable. I’m not sure I have anything to add. I have appreciated the discourse.
1) Tons of weaknesses were baked into it from the start, by centrist Dems like Biden.
2) We need more centrist Dems like Biden.
Great sales pitch.
Sanders has better chances than Biden does of beating Trump. Maybe that’s not true down in your gut somewhere, but I mean in a wide variety of actual polls. Maybe if people like you would stop painting nice pretty pictures of Biden, just for a little while, people will make sure Biden isn’t the nominee we have to live with, who then loses to Trump. You just have to do your part.
Meanwhile, how many times have the Republicans tried and failed to repeal the ACA? I’ve lost count. Do you believe Republicans aren’t a bunch of cynical liars and frauds?
He’s a pathological liar, like Trump.
But of course, you seem to believe a lot of the Republicans’ empty threats too. It’s largely become a reality TV show. When I look at the other side of the stage, it’s hard to escape the conclusion that much of the Dem establishment wants our votes and donations only because it keeps them in business, not because it will do anybody any good. Do you disagree with that?
You talked about what you think Trump would do. I talked about facts.
Last time, Trump hit Clinton, as well as the Democratic and Republican establishments, very hard for all their war mongering. Biden did not play a small role in this, even relative to Clinton.
Trump won that argument and won the election, in case you forgot.
Do you think Biden’s the most likely to beat him? Or do you think Biden’s the most likely nominee, who is also most likely to lose in the general election? There’s a big difference, and you seem to be saying something more like the first option, not the second one.
It would be nice if I could figure out what that point is. That’s what I’m trying to do.
The claim “Biden’s better than Trump” is easy to understand. But I can’t wrap my head around the idea that your one number about one issue could possibly be a way to establish the truth of that claim. That can’t be what you really mean, in which case I have to call this a foul, or at least say something about it….
So I start to consider other things, including Biden’s actual record, his honesty and character when confronted with his own manifest failures as a politician, his ability to govern effectively, his ability to even formulate coherent thoughts anymore, his ability to put forward his own actual serious policies, his ability to lead with something like a conscience instead of being the follower of his handlers and lobbyists and so forth, etc. What I see is definitely not a good picture.
But then you more or less tell me to look the other way, because … I don’t really know why.
I don’t particularly care how you evaluate things like this, but what I can say is that this is not how I want to do it. I try not to come into it by rooting for the blue team and searching for a way to support that position. It doesn’t seem like a fair or reasonable way to make such an assessment, whether or not we agree on the conclusion.
summary:
other than this guy:
“Fuck this shithole country and its population of garbage people.
Fuck them all.”
you all have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
none of you do.
fuck america.
Ill never tire of saying this. Incrementalism works.
Did right wingers whine when their candidate was not right wing enough? No. They voted. They voted for any red. And then they voted some more and slowly made their party more and more right wing. They got what they want. Meanwhile we have revolutionary fantasies by leftists more concerned with how radical they they are who cannot see that building the America they want is not only possible, but within our lifetime.
Voting is power. The right establishment had to conform 4 fucking times to radicals of their time because they actually vote. They didnt just whine because their candidate was not right wing enough, or degress to fantasies about a right wing revolution ir any of that garbage. And yet they got what they wanted. They made it happen. They did it using the system.
In china during the 70’s when they had disasterous economic platforms. Reformers were actually hunted and killed or incarcerated. And yet they reformed the government. Not through revolution, through taking over the party despite that same party killing hundreds of thousands. But of course they actually cared about reform.
google translate, could you please help a person out here?
Thanks, Google Translate! I take back everything I said about your sister Map the other day.
@logicalcat:
I’m mostly with you, but this part?
That’s wrong. They whined a lot. They whined incessantly. Like literally incessantly, because they still haven’t cessanted. Have you not heard the term RINO? Republicans whine more than the entire Bordeaux region.
Aw, fuck. Ignore my #175. I started reading from the bottom up & didn’t realize when I came across that passage I quoted that it was written by consciousness razor.
:le sigh:
@174
I mean, if you think that we’ll vote ourselves into a stateless, classless society at some point in the next seventy-something years, I’d be excited to learn your ideas for how to make that happen, but I’m assuming that this was hyperbole and you meant ‘a slightly more progressive but still capitalist’ America.
Crip Dyke, for what it’s worth, I hadn’t seen your response in the “Amy” thread, which told me to fuck off.
But if you want to block my response to John Morales on your blog, which criticized the choice (a la Chris Matthews, Chuck Todd, etc.) of implying that we’re terrorists, while making a tone argument and asking us to extend an olive branch, then of course you are free to do that.
So, black people are “apparatchiks”? Check your privilege there…..
@Crip Dyke
My bad, they whined. Whined a lot. But that’s not all they did. So to be more accurate…did right wingers just whine? No, they also voted. Because anyone who was a RINO was primaried out if they didn’t conform.
@Porivil
Wanting a stateless non capitalist system is a delusional fantasy propagated by clueless over privileged college students. My family is Cuban. Ive seen what happens when irrational leftists get hold of power. They turn the country into shitholes which resemble end stage capitalism anyways with 1% having all the money except the only difference this time is that those 1% are government employees and there’s bread lines now. This is not to excuse the problems of capitalism, but imposing a system that is also shit doesn’t help. That’s why I like socialist democracies of Europe. There’s still a free market, and income inequality is dealt with by socialist programs. That’s possible within our lifetime. Getting a working non capitalist society wont happen with a revolution no matter how bad you want it. Better men have tried. Economic systems have to die off on their own through technological innovations just like slavery and feudalism did before.