The hero we needed


A teenaged boy — I’d say he even looked “angelic” — slapped the back of the despicable Fraser Anning’s rotten head with an egg. He was a brave young man. Not only did he give Anning a small taste of what he deserves, but he stood his ground as the Australian senator punched him twice, and as his crack team of thugs wrestled the unresisting assailant to the ground and put him in a chokehold. You never know, he might have a second egg somewhere, or a high capacity egg magazine, or an assault egg. You can’t be too careful.

I had to use the word “angelic” to describe him, since the newspapers are doing their usual thing of looking into people’s backgrounds after a crime and trying to paint white people as innocent sweethearts right up until the moment they did the thing. The Daily Mirror has a feature on the childhood of the fucking asshole murderer who killed 49 innocent people in a mosque, and look what they say:

“Angelic boy” — my god, he’s blonde. As everyone knows, all angels are blonde and white-skinned, too, so how could such a sweet child grow up to be a terrorist?

I’m just thinking…there are a lot of blonde white people in Iowa, and as a rural state, a lot of chickens, too. It would be a real shame if Steve King were pelted with eggs at his next public event.

Comments

  1. dexitroboper says

    There were people wondering if the kid would be Milkshake Ducked, but it turns out he’s a good egg.

  2. Sean Boyd says

    I seem to remember something in church about Satan and his side being cast out over a failed insurrection. I take it this was a violent insurrection? Maybe ‘angelic’ describes the little fucker all too well.

  3. lakitha tolbert says

    There are quite a number of asshole Angels in the Bible, so they may be accurate on that account.

  4. Jeremy Shaffer says

    As everyone knows, all angels are blonde and white-skinned, too, so how could such a sweet child grow up to be a terrorist?

    This is what happens when you let no-talent hacks have creative control: you get entities that were depicted as inexplicably chimeric and nearly unfathomable to the human mind diminished into anodyne kitsch so that those with an anemic sense of the zeitgeist can use them to describe the early years of a far-right, mass murdering fuckheaded terrorist.

    It would be a real shame if Steve King were pelted with eggs at his next public event.

    PZ,; you said “shame” when what I think you meant was “moral imperative”. Of course and sadly, King is in the U.S. so even throwing an egg would probably result in a hail of gunfire from law enforcement.

  5. aziraphale says

    Give C. S. Lewis his due, he knew that meeting an angel could be terrifying (see That Hideous Strenth)

  6. mudpuddles says

    Those guys squeezing the teenager in a chokehold? Look at them. Those are some manly men.

  7. lumipuna says

    “Angelic boy” — my god, he’s blonde.

    Maybe they misspelled “Anglic”.

    (AFAIK, this joke goes back to approximately the first historical mention of ethnically English people)

  8. says

    …there are a lot of blonde white people in Iowa, and as a rural state, a lot of chickens, too. It would be a real shame if Steve King were pelted with eggs at his next public event.

    Well…darn. I’m not blonde and in my mid-30’s now, so I guess it won’t be me.

  9. Kamaka says

    Hey, a guy did that egg thing to me I would have punched him a whole lot harder than that.

    There is no excuse for such petty violence.

  10. says

    Hey, a guy did that egg thing to me I would have punched him a whole lot harder than that.

    There is no excuse for such petty violence.

    Except, of course, when somebody throws an egg at you. Then you’re justified in beating kids and have your minions mistreat the kid some more, despite the fact that you are in no danger and obviously yolky but unharmed.

  11. woozy says

    Hey, a guy did that egg thing to me I would have punched him a whole lot harder than that.

    Really? If a guy cracks a egg at me I’d stand there confused and stunned for a few seconds and then if/when the rage wells enough that if I decide to swing back it would be far too late.

    My actual thoughts were what sort of person has the reflexes to respond so quickly with a punch? And the only answer to that is… assholes.. People who expect violent reactions and think in terms of violent altercations. I honestly think any decent human being would be stunned and wonder what had happened and think of checking to see what happened and wonder why and it wouldn’t even occur to them to react violently until at least seen more immediate thoughts occur.

    I mean seriously… whose reflexes when egged is to punch rather than to wonder what the heck just happened, did this really happen, what… I don’t get it….etc?

    As for no no excuse for petty violence… although an adult knows such petty violence is pointless and wrong, teenage exuberance has certainly excused a lot worse.

    What I find is utterly inexcusible would be anyone caring about the well-being of this putrid asshole who has squandered the opportunity to have a purposeful life.

  12. bramhengeveld says

    @11
    “There is no excuse for such petty violence.”

    You wrote that sentence immediately after stating you would use much more violence when such petty violence would happen to you.

    So the kid should’ve used a sledgehammer instead of an egg and you’d be okay with it? Or is it that irony is totally lost on you?

  13. says

    A go fund me page was started for his legal defense and to “buy more eggs.” He hasn’t been charged but a lawyer had offered to defend him pro bono. The same lawyer is now demanding that Anning and his stormtroopers be charged with assault.

  14. lochaber says

    I’m with woozy @14

    I don’t generally go about my day waiting for an excuse to punch people.
    Hell, I’ve actually been punched in the face before, and even that it took me a couple seconds before I got mad enough I wanted to hit the person back.
    I feel fairly certain that if I were assaulted in a less violent and harmful way, I would still be confused, and slow to react with violence.

  15. Kamaka says

    Oh, OK, let it go by.

    You’re right, I should not lash out over a kid egging me.

    Kids will be kids.

  16. Onamission5 says

    @Kamaka: Did the kid egg you after you publicly blamed the victims of a white supremacist massacre for their own murders on the very day they were murdered?

    Then not only should you let it go, you deserved it.

  17. Kamaka says

    No swift hard punch to remind the kid to behave?…that egg thing deserves a very harsh response.

    Who does that shit-head kid think he is? Really, that kid breaks an egg on your head, you just give him a kiss?

    He no hit me with egg, I no punch him hard.

    Get the cause effect here?

  18. Onamission5 says

    This should be the focus.
    49 lives. (now 50)

    Muca Abdi, age 3
    Farhaj Ahsan, father of two
    Haroon Mahmood, father of two
    Lilik Abdul Hamid
    Ara Parvin, age 42, a disabled woman who saved her husband’s life
    Linda Armstrong, age 65
    Hamza Mustafa, age 16 and his father, Khaled Hajj Hasan
    Amjad Hamid, age 57
    Atta Ellyn, 33, father of one
    Kaled Mustafa
    Sayyad Milne, age 14
    Daoud Nabi, age 71
    Mounir Suleiman, age 68
    Osama Adnan, age 37
    Ansi Karippakulam Alibava, age 25

    And many, many more. Thirty four more to be precise. Is condemnation of the ideology and actions which stole these human beings’ lives worth as much effort as is being expended condemning what is essentially a child’s prank?

  19. John Morales says

    Kamaka: “OK, let it go by.”. Heh.

    No swift hard punch to remind the kid to behave?…that egg thing deserves a very harsh response.

    Mindless and instinctual, but harsh. Of course, that abrogates the high ground.

    (Very statesmanlike, that was)

    Who does that shit-head kid think he is? Really, that kid breaks an egg on your head, you just give him a kiss?

    If one were more politically savvy, one would use that much better. Need I elaborate?

    He no hit me with egg, I no punch him hard.

    Yeah, but the context. “He no hit me with egg, I make hay from it” would have been much more useful. Now, he stands revealed as thoughtlessly impulsive.

    Get the cause effect here?

    Indeed. “He not make racist attack, I no egg him”.

    (Heh. You really went there!)

  20. Kamaka says

    Yeah, the benevolent left looks good egging assholes. Nazi Scumfucks deserve such treatment.

    Yup, I’ve thought about it, I would punch that kid way hard he tries to do such a thing to me.

  21. John Morales says

    Kamaka:

    Yup, I’ve thought about it, I would punch that kid way hard he tries to do such a thing to me.

    Wow, you’re so very tough. Punching kids is very impressive.

    (Hint: that “kid” did do it, he didn’t just try)

  22. Onamission5 says

    edit to my #21:
    *a child’s prank, again, against the very man who blamed these victims for their own murders mere hours after their lives were stolen from them.

    Yes, the act of egging was likely intended to humiliate. To disrupt him during his opportunistic, cynical spread of anti-immigrant propaganda and disinformation, disrupt exploitation of fifty murders carried out by white supremacists who think and believe the same as he does. Yes it was disrespectful. That’s likely the point. A very small and singular act of disrespect against a massively larger and more murderous one.

  23. Kamaka says

    WMDKitty,

    The Nazi card? You really played the Nazi card?
    Perhaps that is warrented under the circumstances, but that’s pretty fucking harsh.

  24. John Morales says

    Onamission5:

    Yes, the act of egging was likely intended to humiliate. To disrupt him during his opportunistic, cynical spread of anti-immigrant propaganda and disinformation, disrupt exploitation of fifty murders carried out by white supremacists who think and believe the same as he does. Yes it was disrespectful.

    But. As I’ve been trying to explain to Kamaka, this was a bloody good opportunity for the polly to take the high ground. To exhibit gravitas and statesmanship. To turn around and pityingly decry the impotence and foolishness of that young man, and spin it.

    As it turned out, it worked rather well. But it did have risks.

  25. John Morales says

    Lofty, I shan’t belabour the point.

    (But I do note that it was not about the ideological merits of the protagonists, but rather about their respective actions, in the context of the power differential, and respective influence)

  26. Kamaka says

    Yeah, the kid attacks someone and gets punched, poor baby.

    He got the punch he deserved. I’d have given him three more.

    Nazi asshole man is no excuse at all to not defend oneself.

    I never will start violence. Never.

    But I will fight back.

  27. John Morales says

    “Attacks”, eh?

    You know, there are laws here in Oz. And that was not in any way self-defence.

    (You might care to note my @38, O thou yclept Kamaka)

  28. John Morales says

    PS “I never will start violence. Never.”

    But inciting it is fine. Spruiking white supremacist bullshit is fine. Letting one’s minions do it is fine. And egging is true violence, unlike punching or choking.

    (You do yourself proud)

  29. Kamaka says

    Who hit who?

    So quit making me out to be the bad guy for saying the kid needs a bit of straightening out.

    I think it’s a pretty normal reaction to be a bit rough with a kid who broke an egg on my head.

  30. John Morales says

    Kamaka, yes, yes. Again: You do yourself proud.

    I think it’s a pretty normal reaction to be a bit rough with a kid who broke an egg on my head.

    I know. You’re very normal. Got it, already.

    (One hopes no toddler will ever bother you, what with your violent, vindictive normality and all)

  31. Kamaka says

    The White Supremacist attack is beneath you, Morales.
    You can do better than that, old friend.
    Fight nice. Keep your dignity.

  32. Kamaka says

    You are correct, sir I should not be so tough.
    I have not punched anyone in a long, long time.

  33. Kamaka says

    I hold my line at self-defense, maybe punching the kid is the wrong idea, I dunno
    but if he wants to try such a thing?? hit me?
    help me out here, how should I respond?

  34. John Morales says

    The White Supremacist attack is beneath you, Morales.

    If you seriously imagine this is not about that, then all I can do is mock you.

    Fight nice. Keep your dignity.

    You mean, do the very opposite of what Anning did?

    (You’re so confused!)

    I mean:

    “He got the punch he deserved. I’d have given him three more.”

    Well, sure. After his droogs wrestled the kid to the ground, that would have been quite easy.

    (Guess he’s less normal than you)

    “Nazi asshole man is no excuse at all to not defend oneself.”

    Ahem. You can’t defend yourself after the facy;

    I never will start violence. Never.

    Because hate speech is not in any way inciting violence?

    (I know; that is Anning’s schtick, not yours. You’re just normal)

    But I will fight back.

    Egging is not fighting, except in an abstract sense.

    (Your whole schtick about purported self-defence is, um, less than compelling).

    You can do better than that, old friend.
    Fight nice. Keep your dignity.

    Heh. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

  35. Kamaka says

    Other than being pissed off at you for the moment, I see no hate speech.
    Back your claim.

  36. Kamaka says

    OK, I got seriously side-tracked here, I’m thinking about the egg to the head that really pissed me off.
    There are more important things.
    You are right, Morales, I am wrong.
    Thanks for helping me to clarify my thinking.

  37. says

    IANAL and I do not know about Australian law at all, but here self-defence must be proportional to the severity of an attack, and personal retribution is not permissible. Self-defence is only allowed as long as the attack persists and only with a force that is minimaly needed for it to stop being a danger. If someone snatches your purse and runs, you are allowed to chase and restrain them. But you are not allowed to beat them to a pulp. If someone tries and fails to snatch your purse and runs after the fail away, you are not allowed to chase and restrain them, because you are not longer in danger.

    So even if we say that slowly cracking an egg on top of someone’s head is a violent attack (it migt be de jure, but it isn’t de facto, there is no violence and no danger to physical or mental health or life involved whatsoever) punching said person in the face with a fist after they stepped back and ceased (as shown in the video) is definitively a violent attack and is not allowed, because you are no longer in any danger. The attack ceased. Restricting their breathing and tackling them to the ground in a pile-up when they are visibly not resisting and not being a threat anymore would also be an outright assault and unlawfull restrainment.

    So, Kamaka, if a kid cracks an egg on yur head where I live and you punch them very, very hard in retaliation after they step away, it is you who would get charged with assault. The kid would likely also get a reprimand, or perhaps even a fine, but your reaction would still not be lawful and you would get into greater trouble.

    And that is not even taking into account that kids are more protected by law than adults and you are required by law to take that consideration into account. Yes, you read that correctly, when a kid cracks an egg on your head here, you are required to react with more restraint and consideration than if said action were performed by an adult.

  38. says

    Nazis should be punched and Fraser Anning sure fits the bill.
    Also, what Charly said. In Germany there still is such a thing like “excessive self defence” which is a mitigating circumstance if you are legally permitted to use self defence but go over the top in the heat of the moment. Nothing in that video shows anything that could be considered that.
    And I hope the fucker Kamaka never has kids because they would obviously need to have CPS involved.

  39. John Morales says

    [No worries, Kamaka. I too remember Rev. BDC and Janine, in the good old days.]

  40. Kamaka says

    Giliell, it’s a long road from punching an attacker to messing with innocent children.

    But, sure, go ahead and make me out to be a child abuser.

    That is your way.

  41. a_ray_in_dilbert_space says

    I am conflicted here. I mean, for one thing, I desperately want to punch out Nazis–it’s really just about the only thing they are good for. On the other hand, I wonder if by giving in to the urge to punch them out we aren’t giving them what they really want–justification for their claims of victimization and persecution. They’re kind of like Xtians that way–crying that they are the real victims because they’re being called out for their bigotry and “FREEZE PEACH!”
    That is certainly the narrative Faux News is trying to promote.
    I wonder whether it might not be more effective to engage in another form of protest that didn’t meet the legal definition of assault. We have to be aware of how the average stupid American/Kiwi/Aussie…will perceive this. After all, if you are close enough to hit someone with an egg/pie…, you are close enough to stab them–and that is the average cowardly fuckwit who watches Faux or Sky will see.

    Of course, it’s a little harder to claim victimhood once your goons jump the kid and you start punching him–but just watch him.

  42. Kamaka says

    Perhaps being nearly killed in a violent encounter shades my judgement.
    I fight back, and just because it’s a stupid kid stunt doesn’t buy restraint.
    You hit me, I hit you. You don’t want the beat-down, don’t attack me.
    I wish that was not so. Retaliation is no way to live.

  43. Kamaka says

    @charly

    What kid? The shithead looks old enough to me to be responsible for his actions.

    I will not argue the point that the guy was mistreated over and above what he deserved, but he chose to act.

  44. jefrir says

    Kamaka, this is not about you. You have acknowledged this, and yet you keep going.
    Stop. Talking.

  45. Kamaka says

    @66 jefrir

    Ummm, no. Did you have something worthwhile to say?

    Something pertinant to the discussion?

    Or do you just want to tell me what to do?

  46. Kamaka says

    One more time. The kid took action that got him punched.

    What is the problem here? Don’t provoke, don’t get punched.

    I don’t care the guy he egged is the biggest asshole in the world.

  47. woozy says

    Okay… I am going to disagree with just about everybody here and say I do not think we should “punch Nazis” because… punching people is wrong.

    However we should want to punch Nazis or at least feel happy when they are.

    And that is NOT a contradiction. It is simply an acknowledgement although we must suffer a fool’s existence we need not (and should not) suffer the fool.

    So should the kid have thrown the egg? Well, my flippant answer is someone had to… But okay, meh, maybe not. In the long and in the short run it might not have been that good an idea. Do I care that he threw the egg? Not a whit. I’m happy and really we all should be.

  48. vucodlak says

    Violent a creature as I am, I just can’t see myself punching someone for egging me. I’d be a veritable fountain of “fucks,” but I’m not a hair-trigger asshole who can’t control himself. Outside of very rare times when I’ve been seriously triggered, I’ve never been much on spontaneous violence, and I’ve not responded with violence in roughly comparable situations. Violence just isn’t justifiable in a case like this.

    Besides, my immediate concern would be finding something to wash the foul-smelling goop out of my hair. I’ve developed an intolerance for eggs, and even the smell of them makes me queasy.

  49. jefrir says

    Something that strikes me about the punch is that it wasn’t hair-trigger or instinct – he turned around, paused, took in what had happened, and then threw a punch. And then another one.
    The egging was frankly a pretty mild reaction to the shit Anning said – embarrassing, but not in any way harmful – and even the first punch was a massive over-reaction. Punching someone hard in the face can fucking kill them.

  50. Michael says

    I’ve been trying to teach my kids about appropriate responses. One of those lessons is that if someone says something you don’t like, that doesn’t mean you get to respond physically. Think about Marty McFly in Back to the Future III, being goaded into doing stupid things by being called ‘chicken’, and eventually learning to ignore the insult and act in a more intelligent manner. This also applies to free speech, and the lack of understanding of how it works, particularly it seems by many college students. Free speech is a protection for speech you don’t agree with, not what you do agree with, because that doesn’t need protecting.
    The Australian Senator said something you didn’t agree with. That was his opinion. He is a public figure, and as such is a suitable target for ridicule, questioning, and ‘holding his feet to the fire’ for his opinions. Just because he said something you didn’t like, does not mean you have the right to attack them. Prove them wrong, make them look like a fool, or grow a backbone.
    Personally if someone had come up behind me and egged me, I would not have just stood there (forgive the pun) with egg on my face. I would have punched them too! They made a physical assault, so the appropriate response was physical. I have no sympathy for the teenager.
    From many of the comments, including PZ’s, I expect that many of you will disagree with me on this. However I don’t think you’ve considered what kind of can of worms you are opening up here. Today it’s punch a Nazi or egg a right-wing Senator for things they said. Is it really too hard to imagine that tomorrow a moderate politician will state his opinion that taxes have to be raised or gun control laws have to be strengthened and get stabbed for it?

  51. John Morales says

    Michael:

    However I don’t think you’ve considered what kind of can of worms you are opening up here. Today it’s punch a Nazi or egg a right-wing Senator for things they said. Is it really too hard to imagine that tomorrow a moderate politician will state his opinion that taxes have to be raised or gun control laws have to be strengthened and get stabbed for it?

    FFS, it needs no imagining. cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Jo_Cox

    You seriously think that’s in the same category?

    Personally if someone had come up behind me and egged me, I would not have just stood there (forgive the pun) with egg on my face. I would have punched them too! They made a physical assault, so the appropriate response was physical.

    Your slippery slope argument fails because it crosses categories; egging is not intended to cause physical harm, stabbing is. So, in order to respond to a non-injurious action, you would undertake injurious actions.

    (Ever heard of proportionality?)

    He is a public figure, and as such is a suitable target for ridicule, questioning, and ‘holding his feet to the fire’ for his opinions.

    Oh, sure. The lad should have written a sternly-worded letter to a newspaper doing just that. No doubt it would have been just as effective at achieving those goals as his direct action, and been similarly splashed around the globe.

    PS

    Think about Marty McFly in Back to the Future III, being goaded into doing stupid things by being called ‘chicken’, and eventually learning to ignore the insult and act in a more intelligent manner.

    Punching a kid that’s not doing you any harm is surely nothing like that, eh?

    (I know who came out looking worse out of that; also, the police are investigating)

  52. call me mark says

    Egging bigoted politicians and public figures is a great tradition. I myself once landed an egg on James Anderton, the UK Police Chief who claimed (back in 1986) that people with HIV/AIDS were “swirling in a human cesspit of their own making”.

  53. KG says

    Free speech is a protection for speech you don’t agree with – Michael@75

    …and if that “free speech” happens to lead to mass murder, well, suck it up, snowflake!

  54. Onamission5 says

    Again, fifty human beings between the ages of 3 and 71, human beings belonging to a demographic against whom years of hate speech has been lobbed, were mowed down by a white supremacist terrorist during their religious observation, the senator in question– who is in part responsible for the toxic, anti Muslim and anti immigrant climate which led to these murders– exploited that horrific travesty in order to foment further bigotry against those same human beings. The public reaction of one teenager was to prank the senator with a single egg. That teenager was then punched twice and choked to the ground by six grown men, actions which could have (but thankfully didn’t) claimed yet another innocent life.

    But Kamaka and Michael aren’t concerned with all that. No, they’re super concerned about the imposition to the senator’s dignity. Human lives, meh. A social and political climate which led to the violent and hateful theft of human lives, whatevs. No, it’s the minor and brief indignation of a powerful bigot getting egged by an underaged nobody that’s the really important issue. /s

  55. Michael says

    @ John Morales
    The kid is breaking a psychological barrier by physically assaulting a politician whose views he didn’t like, and everyone else is encouraging that barrier to be crossed. An example is road rage. No one had shot anyone in road rage before, however after the first case, there was another case within a week. Of course there is a difference between an egg and a stabbing, but it isn’t that big a leap. I used stabbing to make a point, while throwing a rock would probably be the next step in that direction.
    Please “a sternly written letter” is not the only alternative the boy had. The media would have loved a ‘David and Goliath’ argument if the boy had called him out on those views right there, and pointed out why he was a bigot, etc.
    I’ll see if I can arrange an experiment and get someone to smash an egg on you while you are at work, say doing a presentation, and see how you react. Normal people get angry or upset, and not “Oh, funny joke, I’ll go wash up and change.”

    @KG
    You are an example of someone who doesn’t understand, nor believe in, free speech. Try researching it. You are lucky that you live in a country where you can state your opinion, at least for the moment… Just because someone doesn’t agree with you, or expresses an opinion you don’t like, doesn’t mean it is going to lead to mass murder. Or would you like some stats?

    @Onamission5
    My comment has nothing to do with that or any other tragedy. You are making a logical fallacy by doing so, as my comments are just as applicable to someone egging any politician for saying something they didn’t agree with. My comment was about free speech and appropriate response. If you don’t understand, or don’t agree with either, then explain why.
    If a teenager egged Trump for saying he liked Kim Jong Un, I think the Secret Service would be just as rough, if not more so. (Yes, I know I’m picking an easy target, but security details are not expected to be gentle if the person they are hired to protect gets assaulted.)

  56. says

    @ Kamaka

    Perhaps being nearly killed in a violent encounter

    … by an egg? Were you mugged at chicken-point? Was it assault with a deadly breakfast?

  57. consciousness razor says

    Michael, #75:

    Personally if someone had come up behind me and egged me, I would not have just stood there (forgive the pun) with egg on my face. I would have punched them too!

    So? I don’t know why you think it’s important to tell us what you would or would not have done. Is there some reason why we should think that you would do what’s right?

    They made a physical assault, so the appropriate response was physical.

    They jumped off a bridge, so the appropriate response was to jump off a bridge.
    They were drowning a child, so the appropriate response was to drown a child.
    Maybe this comes as a surprise to you, but it doesn’t actually work like that. It might have felt like you were reasoning here, but you actually you were just bullshitting.

    I have no sympathy for the teenager.

    Do you need to have sympathy for him? Do you need to have sympathy for that racist idiot who punched him?

    Today it’s punch a Nazi or egg a right-wing Senator for things they said. Is it really too hard to imagine that tomorrow a moderate politician will state his opinion that taxes have to be raised or gun control laws have to be strengthened and get stabbed for it?

    We can obviously imagine people getting stabbed. It already happens, of course, and you are describing it right here. There’s your answer. If you wanted to ask a less stupid question, you should ask that instead.

    #82:

    Of course there is a difference between an egg and a stabbing, but it isn’t that big a leap. I used stabbing to make a point,

    You didn’t make it clear that your point was that these are different things. It sounded a lot like that was not the point you attempted to make (and, I would say, failed in the attempt). Is there any harm in making the correct points?

    while throwing a rock would probably be the next step in that direction.

    Who says it proceeds in steps which lead in a particular direction? I hope you understand that I don’t have to believe egging certain people is good, in order to think your entire approach to this topic is pure bullshit.

    The media would have loved a ‘David and Goliath’ argument if the boy had called him out on those views right there, and pointed out why he was a bigot, etc.

    It makes no difference what the media would love. Do you have a hard time grasping the importance of the question “what’s the right thing to do?” Because you seem to be having some difficulties with it, moral reasoning in general, what could count as a moral justification for an action, and so forth. In order to avoid confusion, if it’s not something that is recognizably an ethical or meta-ethical statement, the best policy at this point may be to leave it out, because it’s irrelevant.

    Normal people get angry or upset, and not “Oh, funny joke, I’ll go wash up and change.”

    I’m sure you know that it’s simply false that, whenever someone is angry or upset, they have no choice but to throw a punch. And I’m sure you know there are a wide variety of alternative responses, other than throwing a punch or making the statement above. And we all know that too, because that’s pretty fucking obvious.

    If a teenager egged Trump for saying he liked Kim Jong Un, I think the Secret Service would be just as rough, if not more so.

    Are you in the Secret Service? Because we first got what you would do, and now it’s what the Secret Serivce would do. I’m a little worried that next it’s going to be what Jesus would fucking do. And I’m wondering if you’ll ever get around to the question of what a person ought to do. You seem to think it’s the same question, but it isn’t. Time to start over?

  58. vucodlak says

    I’ve been kicked, punched, hit with objects, and spit on by kids before. Mostly when I was a (slightly older) kid myself, but even then I knew it wasn’t right to punch them in the face for it.

    One incident that sticks out was a kid a head-and-half shorter than me who kept kicking me in the shins and calling me racial slurs while we were waiting for the school bus, because… I was there, I guess? It was irritating and a bit painful, but I couldn’t justify wringing his little neck, much as a part of me wanted to. I lectured him on respecting his elders. He changed slurs and kept on kicking. I told him to use his words. He stomped my toes, which hurt worse than the kicking, but was harder to do. He went back to kicking. I counseled him not to hit people who could pick him up like a ragdoll and beat him to death against a nearby brick wall. He called my bluff and kept on kicking. For probably the first time in my life I was glad when the school bus came (he was waiting for the elementary school to open, which was also the local bus stop for junior high, where I was going).

    My point being that it’s not ok to punch kids for being little assholes. Not even if they hit you first. Use your words, and remove yourself from the situation if necessary. An egg to the back of your head isn’t going to kill you (unless you’re deathly allergic, in which case you’re not going to have time to worry about retaliating). If there’s a serious risk of harm, then a violent defense may be warranted, but otherwise?

    Don’t hit kids.

    Nazis, on the other hand, should never know a moment’s peace or safety in public until they renounce white supremacist ideology. This does leave a bit of a grey area, vis a vis teenage Nazis, but I would say that’s one major reason we must punch, kick, egg, and otherwise make the lives of adult Nazis utterly unlivable every time they show their faces in public. Let the kiddos see just how much people despise people like Richard Spencer, and a lot of them will find a less dangerous way to be “edgy.” After all, people generally don’t become Nazis because they’re particularly courageous.

  59. Michael says

    @consciousness razor
    “They jumped off a bridge, so the appropriate response was to jump off a bridge.
    They were drowning a child, so the appropriate response was to drown a child.
    Maybe this comes as a surprise to you, but it doesn’t actually work like that. It might have felt like you were reasoning here, but you actually you were just bullshitting.”

    Did you seriously make this argument? If someone jumps off a bridge, an appropriate response is not the same action. eg. it might be throwing a life preserver. If someone is drowning a child, the appropriate response is to stop them. This may come as a surprise to you, but if someone attacks you, the appropriate response is to defend yourself.

    My slippery slope comment refers to the idea that if today you find egging someone for saying something you don’t like acceptable, then tomorrow you may think a much more serious assault is acceptable. I find a weakness in free speech is that it presupposes the listener is going to check up on the facts. However, being able to freely state your opinion and challenge the opinions of others, so that good ideas spread, and bad ideas are discredited is more important. If you are afraid to state your opinion, or challenge another persons, because you are worried you’ll get egged, lose your job, death threats, assaults, etc. then bad ideas are going to win.

    As for what a person ought to do, I think that depends on the situation. If a little kid comes up and punches you in the leg, you can ignore it; if a slightly older kid does that, you can tell them off and explain why that isn’t appropriate; if a teenager or adult does it, then usually you defend yourself as they are capable of hurting you. You could play Gandhi and take it, but again that would depend on the situation.

    As for the Senator, he would need to shower, change his clothes, have his suit cleaned, and this would probably entail a trip home since most people don’t travel with a spare suit. So that egging is going to waste a couple of hours of his time. I’m astonished, if the someone egged you for stating your opinion, that you would just laugh it off, speak sternly to the teenager, ignore it, leave embarrassed, or just ask his parents to pay the cleaning bill. Please explain what you would immediately do in this situation, rather than what you would have done if you had an hour or two to think about it.

  60. Porivil Sorrens says

    @86

    This may come as a surprise to you, but if someone attacks you, the appropriate response is to defend yourself.

    There’s not a civilized legal body in the world that would recognize punching, tackling, and choking someone for slapping you with an egg as “self defense”.

    Please explain what you would immediately do in this situation, rather than what you would have done if you had an hour or two to think about it.

    Ideally, I’d pull a Schwarzenegger and calmly retort “You owe me some bacon”.

  61. Rob Grigjanis says

    vucodlak @85:

    Let the kiddos see just how much people despise people like Richard Spencer, and a lot of them will find a less dangerous way to be “edgy.”

    You seem to be assuming that the “kiddos” have a thorough understanding of why these particular people are being punched and kicked. Maybe they’re just learning that it’s acceptable to punch and kick people they despise, for whatever reason.

  62. says

    Michael @86

    If you are afraid to state your opinion, or challenge another person’s, because you are worried you’ll get egged, lose your job, death threats, assaults, etc. then bad ideas are going to win.

    If your opinion is that certain others are inferior or less than human or undeserving of basic rights due to factors beyond their choice (race, disability, orientation, gender identity, etc.), you should lose your job and maybe take an egg or two to the face.

  63. Onamission5 says

    No, no, WMDKitty, you’ve got it all wrong. See, first you have to divorce the toxic ideology opinion from all possible context and then it becomes some harmless, silly thing of no consequence whatsoever, just werdz, just one person’s wacky idea, a vague, nebulous nothingness which vanishes into the ether upon utterance, so that the only potential harm which can be caused is to the holder of the opinion if they happen to be denied a platform from which to pontificate or experience consequences of any kind for their opinion-werdz.

    Content matters not. Context matters not. Real human consequences matter not. The only thing which matters is that all holders of toxic ideologies opinion-werdz be granted the privilege of spreading their toxic ideology opinion-werdz regardless of how utterly fucking horrible they may be.

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