The KKK, the alt-right, white supremacists, and unabashed Nazis have all converged on Charlottesville to protest the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee, treacherous defender of slavery, from a local park. They marched with torches through the city last night.
We can at least appreciate this moment of linguistic simplification: KKK, alt-right, white supremacist, and Nazi all refer to exactly the same thing, one united collection of deplorable bigots, and we should likewise unite to oppose them all. No more Nazis. Shun them, scorn them, punch them in the face. Tear down their monuments, trash their flags, fire them from their jobs.
It is quite amusing to see a bunch of white supremacists walking down the street with south Asian Tiki torches. Shouldn’t they be using good old fashioned Caucasian-made oil dipped branches like their great grandparents did during angry village mobs in Europe before becoming immigrants in America.
No pitchforks?
I wish I had access to a facial recognition database. I mean one that worked. The FBI’s already on that job.
Hmmmm that would be a fun project: go to those events and identify people, then contact their employers. I’m sure they’re all proud and shit.
Using tiki torches like that is dangerous. If the liquid spills when someone whacks you on the head with it, you can catch fire.
Where are Jake and Elwood when we need them?
I hope the FBI is adding these clowns to their domestic terrorism database as people to keep an eye on.
Hillary Clinton gave us a term that encompasses the KKK, alt right, white supremacists, and neo-Nazis: “deplorables”.
Keep an eye on the pics from today’s demo – there’s a prize for the first one to spot James Damore!
The ideal place and time for a mass spraying of henna, if facial recognition isn’t available.
Swell.
Joy Reid is covering the rally that’s happening now. The Nazis attacked the counter-demonstrators with weapons while she was talking live with one of the counter-demonstrators. One of the organizers told Reid that the Nazis are specifically going after the anarcho-syndicalists, but also members of the clergy and others. The state police don’t seem to be getting involved. It’s a tense situation.
Whenever I look at the pictures like those in the OP, I try to identify the undercover FBI people. Don’t think I’m very good at it.
It’s violent. Don’t know where the police are.
Richard Painter is on, saying he’ll call for Trump’s impeachment if he doesn’t immediately fire Bannon, Gorka, and the other neo-fascists in the WH.
There are people with guns!
I’m familiar with UVA & Charlottesville, & I’m proud of the way the town pushed back against the fascist rally. I hear that some businesses closed & others displayed signs condemning racism.
Apparently the brownshirts / white-robed have already attempted a lynching, Charlottesville: far-right crowd with torches encircles counter-protest group:
There is also a video (Far-right rally descends into violence in Charlottesville). which the Granuiad warns may be distributing to some viewers.
@3, Marcus Ranum
This will be more and more possible and inescapable in the near future.
It’s finally been declared an unauthorized demo and the state police have started to intervene.
Are a single one of these fuckers going to be arrested for their assaults and death threats? Because surrounding a small group of people with torches is one hell of a death threat.
The Charlottesville police have declared a local emergency and the VA governor has declared a state of emergency.
As SC@16 has pointed out. there is now a declared “state of emergency” (governor) and “unlawful assembly alert” (police), Charlottesville: state of emergency declared amid violence before far-right rally. At the present time, this is something of a developing situation, and so reports are a bit confused.
I wonder who the police will blame for this.
David Duke proclaimed that the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville “fulfills the promises of Donald Trump.” Trump, meanwhile, is saying nothing about the deplorable nature of the racist attitudes exhibited by the white supremacists today.
David Duke’s statement:
Link
Don’t include me in your “we,” David Duke.
Cross posted from the Political Madness All the Time thread.
They’re not very good fascists. They didn’t even get together beforehand to coordinate on the colour of the shirts.
If you’re gonna assault someone with deadly force, why limit yourself to punching? Guns are bad m’kay, but you could crack their skulls even better with a club or perhaps stab them in the chest with a knife.
@10 SC, the anarcho-syndicalists?! I thought I was the only one left!
I gotta go….
@24 randall
I don’t know if you’re actually at the rally but “go” in numbers, even if you’re leaving. They’re looking for isolated people/small groups to assault.
It was pretty amazing, from what I could see on TV – anarcho-syndicalists, Democratic Socialists, BLM activists, religious leaders, all united against the Nazis.
AP: “BREAKING: Vehicle plows into a group of counter-protesters at a white nationalist rally in Virginia; injuries unknown.”
@23, Negative Variance
It’s still a mystery!
This is video of the car(s) going into the crowd. Only watch it if you think you’re prepared.
I don’t really know what can be done about this. I think this is just what the white identity is like inherently. Since white people see themselves as the default, they don’t see this is a problem of whiteness. They are going to call this a “racist” issue or a “white surpemacist” issue, never a white issue.
What a horrifying nightmarish scenario for us minorities.
White men continue to be the number one problem and a scourge in this country.
If this was either black men or Muslims shouting and carrying torches, there would have been a swift organized armed response that would make the police response to BLM protests look like a picnic in comparison.
Deplorable. Just as deplorable as a call to violence:
But hey, in the name of religion anything is possible. Your religion of Regressive Leftism, identity politics, and intersectionality. The Right has been bringing this country down for decades. Impressive how quickly The Left has caught up.
Another video. Same warning.
This is the car.
Fascist, white supremacist scum marching openly in the US 2017? I am horrified, but I suppose I am foolish to even be surprised. This was predicted widely when Trump was ‘elected’ (if you can call losing the popular vote by three million votes – even after running one of the dirtiest political campaigns in recent US history – and only taking power due to the fundamentally anti-democratic Electoral College system being elected), and this is simply the consequence of that event emboldening the ambient neo-nazi arseholes that pollute so many societies. This is what crypto-fascist government results in, this is what voting for a far Right candidate looks like on the ground. I hope all the idiots who voted for Trump just to ‘stick it to the establishment’ or because they somehow thought it would be funny are taking a good long look at this and realising just how responsible they are. Equally, every prating fool who claimed that Trump was somehow a ‘less bad option’ than (the admittedly very flawed in her own right) Clinton should also accept their share of responsibility for this.
Everyone who helped this posturing, racist, transphobic, misogynistic buffoon get into office, whether directly by voting for him or indirectly by splitting or undermining the Democrat vote, had a hand in this. Assuming his insane nuclear posturing with North Korea doesn’t kill us all first, I hope they at least learn it.
Horrifying video at the link @ #33. Same warning. (Sorry – I didn’t see it at first.)
More seriously, punching can cause serious injury or death. Even a single punch in some cases!
In any event, violence shouldn’t be recommended without a really good reason compared to other options.
Yes to this.
@SC (Salty Current);
That video was just harrowing to watch. The grey car with the tinted windows seemed to deliberately hit the line of stationary cars in order to crush and injure as many anti-fascist protesters as possible. It was an act of terrorism, no different than those performed buy the supporters of Islamic State, and yet people still try to claim there is no issue with far Right, christo-fascist extremism in the US.
Awful.
Laws being put forward to legalise running down protesters with motor vehicles? How could any legislator even think of being so irresponsible? It would simply invite acts of domestic terrorism like this. Since when was it the job of state legislators to write charters for terrorists (apparently as long as those terrorists are sufficiently White)?
Yes, you can see it clearly in the video @ #33. It’s unclear whether the driver has been apprehended.
It just warms the heart to see that it took more than twenty comments for the Nazi defenders to show up.
No, not really.
SC @ 41;
Perhaps I am being unduly uncharitable, but given the current political climate I am left wondering how hard the police will even try to find the culprit. A few decades ago the police in many parts of the US and beyond never seemed overly fussed about catching people who were violent toward those they deemed to be ‘hippies’ (so much for ‘protect and serve’), and it seems more and more like the contemporary cops are adopting a similar attitude toward both Black people in general and also Black Lives Matter and other Progressive Left protesters.
@31 dpavlov
Like that “call to violence” FDR made in 1941?
I wonder if you try to peddle this shit to WW2 vets, about how they’re just as evil as the Holocaust. After all, they did a lot worse than punching Nazis.
Clean up in aisle 31.
Can’t imagine why anyone would be skeptical.
SC @ 46;
Forgive the crudity of my language, but the head of the fucking Sante Fe Police Union shared that abominable meme? Really? Doesn’t the bloody fool have any understanding of the constitutional right of assembly and peaceful protest? They couldn’t telegraph their fascist leanings any more clearly if they only wore exclusively black shirts.
I knew the situation with US police forces was bad, but I didn’t realise it was two-centimetres-from-outright-goose-stepping bad. Far from being uncharitable, it looks like my estimate of the character of the police may have been overly charitable. I suppose we should count ourselves fortunate it wasn’t a police cruiser that ran down the protesters.
At least one of the victims has died.
Trump condemns the violence “on many sides…on many sides” – calls for “law and order.” Now he’s talking about low unemployment and corporations. He’s scum.
Here’s the quote.
I’ll object to the call to “punch them in the face” for two reasons, in this specific circumstance:
Firstly, this helps white supremacists. They want to be seen as under attack and the victims, and calls for violence against them helps them. Actual violence reinforces these sorts of beliefs by white supremacists.
Secondly, calls for violence — even relatively small-scale violence — are inherently uncontrollable. How do you know the person you want to be punch is an actual white supremacist? How do you know people won’t get it wrong and punch the wrong people? Isn’t this more likely to escalate violence and result in innocents being harmed?
In extreme situations, an extreme response can be warranted (and the negatives above can be outweighed by the positives of gaining some level of control and power in circumstances of extreme oppression). I don’t think we’re at that level yet that a violent response would make the situation better — rather it would make the situation worse, I think. .
Oops, this sentence: “Actual violence reinforces these sorts of beliefs by white supremacists. ”
should read “Actual violence reinforces these sorts of beliefs about white supremacists. “
This was the segue to talking about jobs.
Well that took a while. There had already been shootings and stabbings, but this is the first murder of an anti-fascist by the far-right goons.
Of course the goons are going to be all about how they are the true victims.
I have just been watching a few news reports from various channels about the events in Charlottesville, and it struck me that none of them actually describe what happened there clearly. As was to be expected Trump droned on about how the violence was ‘sad’ and that everyone needs to ‘respect’ everyone else (seemingly implying that the fascists should also be respected, because what isn’t respectable about eliminationist hate-speach, right…?), but said nothing about the attack on anti-fascist protesters. The news reports simply referred to ‘clashes at a Far Right Rally at Charlottesvile’, saying nothing about what is clearly an act of domestic terrorism directed against anti-fascist protesters, and seemingly implying that there was some generalised violence at the fascist protests, possibly leading the audience to believe it was fascists who were injured. All round, it was atrociously – quite possibly deliberately – misleading journalism. I know that journalists are often conservative in their language in the immediate aftermath of an attack since the details on the ground are unclear, but when there is a video out there showing people chanting ‘Black Lives Matter’ and holding anti-fascist banners being run down by a car with heavily tinted windows that then speeds away it seems more than a little odd that such ambiguous language is still being used.
@51 iiandyiiii
Wrong and wrong.
White supremacists don’t need any help making themselves out to be victims when their whole ideology is that they’re victimized by equality. Giving them evidence of victimization is irrelevant because they can just as easily believe, without any evidence whatsoever, that the shittiness of their own lives is the result of victimization, even when it’s entirely due to their own terrible decisions.
And Nazis don’t want to be seen as victims, they want to be seen as tough as strong. What they offer their target audience is a fantasy of superiority and alpha-ness. They’re not going to trade around images of Nazis getting beat to elicit sympathy, they’re going to make memes out of that image of the car plowing through protesters, because theirs is not an ideology of sympathy, but of celebration of murder.
Their belief is that they can get away with attacking social undesirables, partly because “liberal beta cucks” are too pansy to fight back, and right now *you* are the one reinforcing that belief.
Looks to me like the terrorist has been arrested:
https://twitter.com/ChiDuly/status/896450060812132352
Jon Favreau: “‘On many sides’ is the low point of a presidency that’s already had a record number of low points.”
John Harwood: “by condemning hatred “on many sides,” the president of the United States just handed an immensely valuable gift to David Duke”
The hospital is saying as of now there are 19 people injured, one killed.
(I don’t know if all of the injuries are from the car attack.)
Disagree, zibble. It’s not so much what they believe themselves, it’s what others believe — tons and tons of Americans of all ideologies entirely renounce violence and will automatically oppose whatever side is more overtly and publicly violent. They shouldn’t have any sympathy for white supremacists no matter what, but many of them will, if they see white supremacists that they see as behaving peacefully (even if their words are inherently the opposite) being physically attacked, throw their hands up and be just as opposed to the violent attackers as the white supremacists.
I have no problem with fighting back in the sense of self-defense in the moment — if someone is physically attacked, by all means resist with force. But “punching them in the face” based on the violence of their words does nothing good, IMO, except give a momentary sense of good feeling, while doing lots of bad things — increasing the likelihood of punching the wrong people, increasing the likelihood of violent escalation, and decreasing the likelihood of those in the middle (i.e. well-meaning people who are ignorant of the significance and extent of modern white supremacism) allying with anti-racists. What’s the benefit, especially when you’re human and might punch the wrong person, or start a brawl that harms bystanders, or worse?
@49 “On many sides”?
\What in hell is that supposed to mean?
This, too.
@61: “punching them in the face” has been tried before, between 1929 and 1933 in Germany. It’s commemorated in the Horst Wessel Song: “Comrades shot by Red Front and Reaction in spirit march along in our rows” (I hope I get the translation correct). “Punching them in the face” didn’t prevent the “Machtünernahme” (take over of power) but rather helped to create favourable circumstances for it.
So you’re right.
Remember kids, you must never punch someone whose entire raison d’etre is exterminating people exactly like you, your friends, your family, and countless other innocents who just want to live their lives. If you do, you’ll be just as bad as they are.
The preceding was bitterest sarcasm, in case that wasn’t clear.
Saad @ #30:
Imagine if these dudes were black and/or Muslim.
I have no moral or ethical problem with punching protesting nazis in the face, except for the moral and ethical problems of taking actions that help nazis and white supremacists.
The Charlottesville police are now saying the 19 people injured and one killed were all from the car attack. Another 15 were injured during the demonstrations earlier.
Hahahahahahaha! That’s possibly in rather bad taste given the circumstances, but fucking hilarious anyway!
“Violence is as American as apple pie” – H. Rap Brown
These fascists are marching in Charlotesville, which lies in a county that voted 86% for Hillary Clinton. They are marching in support of slavery. Their slogans include “Jew will not replace us”. Fascists – actual, 24-carat unashamed fascists – are bidding to control the streets in the USA – this is their first serious attempt since Trump’s “election”. They must not be allowed to to so. If this can be done non-violently, by outnumbering them and blocking their way – great. But one way or another, it must be done.
Do you seriously think that if the SA had been allowed free rein to control the streets in Germany in 1929-1933, Hitler would not have come to power? Because if so, you’re an idiot.
What you have completely failed to do, of course, is show that such actions do help Nazis and white supremacists.
It’s good.
KG @70
It’s just my opinion. I think that lots of Americans, flawed as they are, probably won’t directly support white supremacism, but if they see white supremacists who appear to be acting peacefully (even if they aren’t peaceful at all in reality) under physical attack, they might feel some (unjust) sympathy, and be less likely to oppose them in the future.
Further, violence is inherently uncontrollable, and “punching nazis in the face” might start brawls or escalation that could harm bystanders and innocent people, as well as just plain making human mistakes and punching decent non-white-supremacists by mistake because we’re all human and capable of mistakes.
How does it help? What good does it do that outweighs these potential negatives?
Photo of the attack. Same warnings as above.
How does it help? What good does it do that outweighs these potential negatives? – iiandyiiii@71
It stops the fascists controlling the streets uncontested. If they are allowed to do so on one occasion, that will embolden more to join them. Millions of white Americans, I’m afraid, are potential fascists, ready to be intoxicated by a violent street movement. The vote for Trump – an open, proud, racist bigot and scofflaw, who called for violence during his campaign, made that clear.
There are reports that a state police helicopter has crashed in Charlottesville.
Speaking a white old-fart, no way. The white-supremicists are trash, and should be handled as such. I would, in an equal world, have them treated in their next march, much like the blacks in Ferguson were treated when they were protesting, and be told all the while why this was happening to them. But, I really don’t expect much more than was seen today, being the cynic I am.
KG @74
I think contesting them with counter-protests is more effective and less likely to backfire. And I have no problem with confrontation and robust tactics — and if the nazis throw punches, by all means punch back. They’re idiots and they’ll almost certainly attack first. I’d just suggest that making sure we’re not the ones who throw the first punches will be more effective in the long run and ensure we’re not contributing to potential alienation of those fence-sitters (who deserve lots of criticism, but their votes and support might be critical in the future nonetheless) who are ignorant of the danger of rising white supremacism.
This disagreement isn’t a huge deal, and I doubt we’re particularly far apart — I just want to be careful not to do anything, even little things, that might have the potential to help white supremacists. Saying “punch the nazis” without specific qualifiers (I’d suggest something like “confront the nazis and show them we’re stronger and have more support than they do, and don’t back down even if they start throwing punches”) just provides them with a little bit of ammo in the struggle for hearts and minds. I want to win the war, not just the battles, and I think that means being careful with our rhetoric.
“Mooo-ooom!!! He hit me baaa-aaaackk!!!!”
Fuck you.
Matthew Miller: “Driving a car into a crowd is terrorism. POTUS should announce he’s directed the FBI to investigate it & if any hate groups were behind it.”
I’d just assumed that investigation had already begun.
zibble:
But “getting away with it” doesn’t mean they fail to receive a punch in the face. What is that supposed accomplish anyway, compared to having a justice system which aims to protect everybody from such attacks?
You punch somebody, and then what? They stop attacking people for the rest of their lives? Not likely. Do you have to murder them, to really be sure they’ll stop and won’t get away with it anymore? Where does it end, and wherever that may be, what do you imagine that ending will be like?
iiandyiiii:
Well… that’s certainly overselling it. Most people are sort of immediately and viscerally repulsed by violence, but that doesn’t seem to last long for some. They’ll end up being a lot more forgiving (or maybe forgetful) of the bad things “their side” has done, so any “opposition” you actually see is a very narrow, short-term, reactionary sort of thing, which shifts around constantly and doesn’t amount to much of anything. I guess you could say they’re like “centrists” in a sense, floating down the river of life like leaves, doing little to change its course. But depending on their life experiences and so forth, they’ll have a much easier time understanding the perspective of certain attackers and accepting the (often bad) excuses that they imagine those people might have had. They won’t just insist on no excuses, full stop. They’ll form certain pictures in their heads and tell certain stories, rather than others, which reflect things they were predisposed to accept or reject for all sorts of other reasons. It’s never as simple as “I’m separate from them, and I saw one of those people punch a guy once, so I’m opposed to everything they stand for.”
If this is the crash I referred to @ #75 it looks extremely bad.
consciousness razor @80
Fair enough. You may have described those folks better than I did.
iiandyiiii, #51
They weren’t under attack and they started a terror march and killed a person and injured 19 more.
You might as well have just said “Turn the other cheek”.
Saad #83
Apologies, that certainly was not my intention. I have no problem with using force in self defense against a physical attacker like the terrorist driver who plowed into the crowd today.
Confirmation from the FAA.
If you don’t extend that to a “carry” asshole being a bully, why should I bother to listen to you? Those who like the Klan, bully with force, should not be supported in any way. But this, to me, seems what you are doing. Please support all attempts at intimidation being disarmed in all ways….
Nerd of Redhead @86
I’m not sure what I’ve said that leads you to believe that, but that’s not my intention at all. My only concern is the best tactics and strategies in defeating white supremacism in the long term, and anything I’ve said is in support of that aim.
Dan Pfeiffer: “Only 8 months into the Trump Presidency we are on the brink of nuclear war and Nazis are in streets of an American city. Seems about right.”
“Nothing specific against us.”
You are delusional as our alleged president.
Nerd of Redhead @90
Can you be specific? Are you sure that you’re not reading something into my posts? I think Trump is helping and inflaming white supremacists and white supremacism, and this is the most dangerous time with regards to bigotry and white supremacism in my lifetime, and I’m very concerned about our future, and I want to be careful and proceed in the best and most effective way I can.
If we disagree, then that’s okay. I’m going to try and do my best to understand these issues and fight white supremacism, even if that means sometimes I disagree with bloggers and posters I respect and regularly read. All I can do is try to understand things and ask questions when I don’t.
Reports that two people died in the helicopter crash.
For fuck’s sake, Nerd, iiandyiiii doesn’t seem to be supporting the klan, asshole. The recommendation was “punch them in the face,” prior to anything about the car attack (and now perhaps that helicopter). The quote you’re responding to is about self-defense being justifiable. In response, you apparently think that’s not good enough and want to tell us about your itchy trigger finger. I doubt that, and I bet you’re just thoughtlessly saying whatever comes to mind. Unless you’re going to say we should go out and commit random, unprovoked acts of violence, then you’re thinking of cases of self-defense as well. Does it seem like you’re supporting them or not?
Simple. Either the alt-right and their sycophants are bigots who deserve no consideration as to reasoned arguments (none-of which hold up to third party evidence), or you condemn, them their methods including carry, which is prima facie evidence for intimidation, like the KKK years ago, or you seem to have sympathy for their cause.
Your choice, make it.
Silence is always an option.
Nerd of Redhead @94
I totally agree that “the alt-right and their sycophants are bigots who deserve no consideration as to reasoned arguments (none-of which hold up to third party evidence)” and I totally condemn “their methods including carry, which is prima facie evidence for intimidation, like the KKK years ago”, and I have absolutely no idea what leads you to believe I’d have any problem at all with either one of these assertions.
@80 consciousness razor
It makes these cowards a little more afraid to hold open calls for terroristic violence. One punch alone doesn’t accomplish it, just like one death threat alone doesn’t intimidate women off twitter.
That’s why we all have to do our part.
iiandyiiii @72
Your opinion is pretty stupid, no offense.
If someone’s thought process is “Well previously I hated the Nazi scumbags because they wanted to exterminate pretty much every non-white non-hetero person and so I opposed the implementation of their ideals, but after seeing them get punched in the face, I think their believes are vile but I’m OK with it because they didn’t start the fight just by advocating for the extermination of minorities.”
Who the fuck thinks like that? Why would we want to win them over?
Trump offered condolences for the loss of the state police killed in the crash. Still nothing about the victims of the car attack.
“CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va. (AP) – Officials: White nationalist clashes in Virginia linked to deaths of 2 people aboard crashed helicopter.”
I have no idea what this means.
Why are you afraid? That means not total condemnation. Which is what I see.
Please, condemn them absolutely without any equivocation.
I still see the tanks in Ferguson, but indifference by the police in Charlotte. I want the same results in both locals. I prefer the Charlotte handling, not the Ferguson, as it is both more humane, and more American. That is my point. But the response to the latest provocation seems more based on color than threat. Which should be criticized for the racism it is.
Or it could infuriate them and make them even more inclined to violence. Fear certainly isn’t their only option. It may be what you hope. The last several decades (at least) are evidence that not much makes terrorists (or fascists) too afraid to engage in terrorism (or fascism), since it keeps happening even against overwhelming resistance.
While we’re going around hoping for stuff and pretending that’s a serious plan, let’s dream big. I hope every Republican politician resigns tonight and a democratic socialist party suddenly appears to take their place. I don’t know how, but we’ll just scare them out of office. What do you say?
I won’t be punching anyone any time soon, nor will I be sending death threats. I’m against those things. If in order to accomplish whatever it is, you need all of us to “do our part” in that way, then “we” (or you) are probably not going to accomplish it.
throwaway @97
Just my opinion based on lots of people I’ve known, many of whom are pretty close to the way you described, in my experience. They are probably shitty people, but in the long run we’ll need the support and votes of lots of shitty people if white supremacism is to be defeated. In my opinion, anyway.
Is there a possible solution to this sort of thing? I personally am all in favor of punching nazis in the face, but realistically, that would just escalate things, and their side has a lot more guns (and the Daily Stormer is already claiming that the driver acted in self defense)… I don’t think there’s any legal way to shut them down due to 1st amendment issues.
I live in Canada, we have our own right-wing hate groups, but they wave to be a lot more subtle due to hate speech laws and limits on free speech.
Nerd of Redhead @100
I condemn white supremacists (by any name, such as alt-right or neo-nazis or whatever) without equivocation. I don’t see how concern and fear about some things is incompatible with total condemnation of white supremacists. I suppose I could lie and say that I have no fear at all, but what would be the point of that?
Other than having some fear, I still don’t understand what I’ve posted that you object to.
Does Germany allow Nazis to amass (armed or unarmed) and march with torches and shout slogans?
I’d say “back to the drawing board,” but he’s not capable of a genuine sentiment or real decency and it’s too late in any event.
@101 consciousness razor
That’s a pretty absurd interpretation. It’s clear that right wing terrorist groups have gotten more brazen now that they have less resistance. And “overwhelming resistance” is already a pretty ludicrous exaggeration of how white supremacist orgs were treated in this country.
“The Dodge Challenger is registered to 20-year-old James Alex Fields of Ohio, according to vehicle registration records reviewed by The Washington Post. Albemarle-Charlottesville Regional Jail Superintendent Martin Kumer told The Post that a man with the same name and age was booked Saturday on suspicion of second-degree murder, malicious wounding, failure to stop for an accident involving a death, and hit and run. Kumer said Fields is currently being held without bail.”
from https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/local/fights-in-advance-of-saturday-protest-in-charlottesville/2017/08/12/155fb636-7f13-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html
FFS.
@ consciousness razor, comment #101
In the past 24 hours, we’ve seen Nazis running riot through a major metropolitan area, beating people over the head with oil-filled torches, menacing people with guns, and running them down with cars. Really, all that’s left is for them start pulling the trigger, and history shows that eventually they will regardless of whether people hit back or not.
I’m not concerned that the Nazis will keep committing acts of terrorism. I know they will, but there’s little that can be done to stop that beyond hopefully educating the next generation of kids to not grow up to be like the Nazis. No matter what, they will be a few people like them are bound to exist in any society.
I’m concerned about Nazis being normalized. I’m concerned that if people see them marching down the street without anyone getting in their faces and screaming right back at them, they’ll start to think that Nazis aren’t so bad. Or that no one really minds them all that much. I’m afraid some kids will look at them and think they look strong and brave. That Nazis are a community that they’d like to be a part of, if those kids don’t feel so strong and brave themselves.
As I said in an earlier comment, the defining attribute of a Nazi (or a KKKer, or an alt-righter) is their stated desire to exterminate or enslave everyone not like them. They mean it, too. And since being a Nazi is also a wholly voluntary state (at the moment), I see no reason to tolerate their existence. So as far as I’m concerned, Nazis can either cease to be Nazis, or they can cease to be.
I much prefer the former, but I’m not interested in sacrificing myself or anyone else for well-being of Nazis. I’ve been down the “maybe we can just talk things out road” before. Never again. But don’t take my word for it. These Nazis are no different from those responsible for the Shoah. They haven’t changed a bit. All they lack is the numbers and the power, and they’re getting more of each every day.
For those justifying violence against the Nazis, this might be relevant, since it mentions recent rebellions against authoritarian regimes: https://islamandliberty.com/how-to-resist-video-193fe8fec862
Tl;DR: it is not effective and yes, it will give them more fuel to escalate.
I agree: it is NOT morally wrong to punch someone who’d happily kill you.
However it does help the enemy.
@vucodlak #110
It has happened already.
A large group flew actual Nazi flags openly and made a huge mess, and POTUS didn’t call them out.
If this isn’t normalised already, what is?
http://www.toledoblade.com/Nation/2017/08/12/Hundreds-face-off-ahead-of-white-nationalist-rally.html
Fields’ mother speaks:
“Samantha Bloom, Mr. Fields’ mother, told a Blade reporter her son texted her Friday to say he had dropped his cat off at her Monclova Township apartment so he could go to an “alt-right” rally in Virginia.
“I told him to be careful,” Ms. Bloom said. “[And] if they’re going to rally to make sure he’s doing it peacefully.”
It didn’t appear that happened, she said tearfully.
She had returned from dinner Saturday evening unaware that her son was involved and had not yet been contacted by authorities.
He had told her about the rally last week, but didn’t offer details about its extremist nature.
“I thought it had something to do with Trump,” she said.”
vucodlak:
I’m concerned about all of the same things as you are in #110. I’m also concerned about normalizing violent actions which are not done in self-defense, as if that were a legitimate thing to do. As you said, educating the next generation is one of the best approaches we can take. Attacking people physically is not.
I never said anything about “sacrificing” anyone. You have the right to defend yourself, which you should certainly exercise if it comes to that. One thing we ought to be clear about is that this is not a right to go out and attack people. If anything, I think that way leads to more “sacrifices,” not less, with no genuine resolution of the problem.
I was in a similar argument about starting wars in another thread recently…. I consider myself a pacifist. And when I say that, what you should be hearing is roughly that I think we have every right to defend ourselves. It is not the usual straw-pacifist position that we should all roll over and die, let our enemies “win,” etc. The last time the US was genuinely defending itself in any of our wars was a long time ago. Instead, warmongers gotta monger, so we start them — which is attacking, not defending — over some real or imagined threat. That’s an important distinction that we can’t just brush to the side. Very recently, there have been serious concerns that North Korea could attack us. That could happen, and the right approach is not to nuke them first because we’re worried about what they may or may not do. You just do the best you can about the situation you’re actually in, not imaginary situations in your head that keep you up at night. We’re certainly capable of defending ourselves, if that’s what it comes down to, but many people are never satisfied with just that. They’d rather charge in with guns blazing, which is a recipe for disaster. It somehow always works out great in superhero movies and so forth, but that’s not usually how it goes in reality.
Educating people, non-violent resistance, vocal and unwavering protest, making sure the law is on our side (and that everyone abides by it) to maintain some semblance of justice, and of course defending ourselves whenever necessary — those are some of the things we ought to do.
Like you, I’m sure people will continue to be hurt by violent criminals, which is nothing new, and it does not imply we ought to start acting like vigilantes. Being a criminal is a voluntary state — do we murder all criminals? Must they all “cease to be,” however that’s supposed to work? I think we have lots of better ways of addressing such problems, which are both more effective and more humane.
Chiming in to second #56. This is exactly right and stated far better than I could have.
‘The terrorist’s mother from 113
She was right about that, It had everything to do with Trump.
The protesters weren’t even blocking a road, they were on a pedestrian mall.
consciousnessrazo @80:
Enough of their blood runs in the street, maybe they finally get the picture that we won’t lie down like sacrificial lambs for their murder-boners whenever they feel inadequate, and should sit down and fucking behave themselves in society if they don’t want to die. Maybe. Or maybe they’re too far gone.
What I do know is that we’ve spent the past several decades being complacent. We spent all this time giving no real pushback at the Right-Wing Terrorists grew and grew, because we thought “it could never happen here” and because we’re a buncha liberal hippies who hate violence. But they don’t look at us, in our non-violence, as virtuous opponents, but as lambs to the slaughter. Between growing fat on privilege and entitlement, and our refusal to address their transgressions in ways that have meaning to them, they’ve sold themselves on a fantasy where they’re the heroes, the invincible cowboys, who can swagger around destroying whatever they want with impunity. “taking the moral high road” won’t stop them, it will just let them kill us.
And the opinions of other people don’t mean jack-all when we’re dead and they’re gloating. Yall wanna fret about what “everybody else” thinks? Then here’s what yall need to get in your head, and make sure everybody else gets it too: there is no middle. You think you’re sitting pretty in the neutral zone, but the Nazis have you marked too. It’s not Left vs Right, or Liberal vs Nazi, it’s American vs Nazi, and you are either an American or you are a Nazi. If you call yourself an American, then you are on board with kicking Nazi scum out of our country. If you’re sympathizing with Nazi scum, then you take a good, hard look at yourself in the mirror and decide if that’s really the side you want to take.
I don’t know if a Societal War can be avoided. I’d bet against peace, personally. But I do know that it won’t be avoided by continuing the same old “liberal cuck wuss” tactics that allowed them to fester for decades, and I see no other possibility than “siddown, shut the fuck up, behave yourself in society, and hash this out in the arena of politics – OR ELSE”. And if that doesn’t work…them it’s them or us, and we need to be damn sure we’re ready to choose “us”.
I didn’t see this get posted yet, so if it did and I miss it, I apologize. Interview with Dr Wes Bellamy, Vice Mayor of Charlottesville. http://www.npr.org/2017/08/12/543096680/white-supremacist-rally-in-virginia-turns-violent
You were the one talking about how Nazis look at us, “as lambs to the slaughter,” like that shit fucking matters. Oh, and we’re a bunch of “hippies.” You seem to take it awfully seriously.
Your “Societal War” also means tons of people are killed. That proposal is apparently not about preventing people from being killed, which means it isn’t a card in your hand that you get to play. You’re merely afraid that we will lose, and the only strategy you can wrap your head around is to act as the aggressors, although it isn’t the only way to fight.
While we’re busy ridding the country of Nazis, we’re supposed to think and like them, such that we “address their transgressions in ways that have meaning to them.” I’d rather do stuff in ways that have meaning to me. And I don’t consider bloodthirsty Nazi fantasies a source of reliable information about how to win.
I don’t even want to know what kind of chaotic hellscape we’d be left with once we’ve gotten rid of the Nazis by getting rid of our country. Then, people like you would still be clamoring for even more violence to set things right again, but there won’t be much left to fight for at that point. Obligatory video.
iiandyiiii, consciousness razor, F.O.,
You may want to think about (and learn about, if you’re unaware of it), the Battle of Cable Street. This occurred in 1936 as a result of a planned march through a largely Jewish area of London by the British Union of Fascists. Local people, aided by outsiders (socialists, communists, anarchists), blocked the route and prevented the march, by force, despite the police aiding the fascists. As the article says:
Fascists must not be allowed to march. They must not be given platforms to call for the extermination of those they hate. If the authorities will not stop them, anti-fascists must, using whatever degree of force is necessary. This is self-defence – although of course the fascists and their enablers will whine about “freedom of speech” and “freedom of assembly” and the “right to bear arms”.
@KG #120 Unless you are implying that blocking a march is an act of violent aggression on its own, I do not understand how your link relates to my point.
@rpjohnston #117
You are delusional and dangerous.
You worship violence.
Tell me, in this fapping scenario of yours, how do you plan to kill them in numbers without making the situation escalate in a massive, bloody clusterfuck?
Pray tell, what gives you any indication that they are not “too far gone”?
They are just waiting for the excuse to escalate.
It’s exactly what they want, and you rant about giving it to them on a silver plate.
It would be a godsend to Trump: all the scandals forgotten, any fence sitters frightened would cower back to authorities, scared of the “lefties’ or whatever. You remember 9/11, right?
Nazis are a threat to everyone and should be punched on principle for that reason alone.
Or we could take the “talk it out” approach as they march us to our deaths.
I’d rather live.
F.O.@121,
Those who blocked the Cable Street march were absolutely prepared to use violence to stop it, and did so – that’s why the event is called “the Battle of Cable Street”. If they had not, the fascists would have succeeded in their aim of marching through the area.
To all of the people defending the right of Nazis to do armed marches through public:
You are saying to black people, Muslims, trans people, Mexican immigrants, etc etc that we should put up with the horror and threat to the safety of us and our families that Nazis rallies are. As they get more and more vocal and commit more acts of terror, we’re supposed to sit back and suck it up because there’s a god damn document that you uncritically worship. Why doesn’t the content of the speech matter to you guys? Is it a privilege thing?
You are all on their side, by the way. If your city decided to do a huge town hall where the mayor said everyone who thinks Nazis should be able to do armed marches through public streets about killing off black families, please raise your hands, your hands will go up in unison with Richard Spencer’s. Fuck you all.
How about next time you want to defend Nazi rallies, why don’t you do what people do when bigots whine about political correctness: Re-write your sentence and substitute what you think their actual message is for the word “free speech”. See how you sound.
LOL. We’re debating whether ethnic cleansers have a right to public space to scare people and gather support for genocide. On a very progressive blog.
Yikes, the world is fucked.
They were prepared for violence, didn’t seek violence, didn’t attack first.
Their immediate goal was not aggression nor intimidation through violence.
Their immediate goal was to stop the march by making barricades.
They knew there would be violence, And in fact, :
You’d no doubt have been there with the right-wing press, tut-tutting at this organised violence. So I cordially invite you to take your supine stupidity and ignorance, and stuff it where the sun doesn’t shine.
Source for the second quote@127: http://www.cablestreet.uk/.
“Exactly 90 years ago this summer, Trump’s father was arrested at a KKK rally in Queens.”
Saad @ #105,
In today’s news – “Drunk American beaten up by passer-by after performing multiple Nazi salutes in German city, police say”: “Police say the American, who is under investigation for violating Germany’s laws against the display of Nazi symbols or slogans, had an extremely high blood alcohol level.”
KG @120
The disagreement is about what are the best strategies and tactics to stop and defeat nazi marchers, not whether they should be stopped and defeated. I think we all agree that nazi marchers and their aims and goals must be stopped and defeated. Their goals are not simply to march — their goals are to subjugate, expel, or exterminate non-white people, LGBTQ people, etc. Those goals absolutely must be confronted and defeated, and what we’re discussing is the best way to go about doing this.
In case there was any doubt left, the driver/killer/terrorist James Alex Fields was photographed hours before the incident, wielding a white supremacist group’s shield with other white supremacists.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/charlottesville-suspect-held-hate-group-shield-attack-article-1.3407245
aaandyiiii@131,
Which is why I drew your attention to the Battle of Cable Street.
KG @133
That’s fine. I think assertive and aggressive confrontation is appropriate in some circumstances, and it’s reasonable to discuss what particular circumstances those might be.
iiandyiiii @ 134:
Oh! oh! I know the answer to that one!
It’s when fucking white supremacists feel bold enough to freely march with torches in the streets.
Amazing
Nazis are murdering people in the street and people are arguing about when it’s appropriate to oppose them and how exactly.
SC, #130
Sweet :)
But wait… if they don’t allow Nazis to do salutes, how are Germans still able to speak freely??????????
@KG #127
The police got the “rain”. Not the Nazi. If you have a single anecdote, at least stick to it. The only thing it proves is that “raining stuff on the police” (which indeed, might very well constitute violence) forced to organisers of the march to cancel it.
@Giliell #136
How course people are arguing how to oppose them. What the actual fuck!? I don’t know how to oppose them effectively. I am afraid that if I use violence people less privileged than me will suffer the backlash, *more* than they are suffering already.
Shouldn’t it be my concern?
I do plan to go to every fucking protest I find and put my white body between the fucking nazi / cops and the other protesters.
I have no fucking clue how to do community building because I am fucking anti-social.
If you have any practical, effective suggestion please tell me and no, this is not a rhetorical question. I am genuinely desperate for options and holy fuck I must to do something other than yelling in social media.
“Mother Of Charlottesville Victim Heather Heyer: ‘I’m Proud Of What She Did’.”
Saad, in case you missed this on the other thread – the response to the Unite the Right organizer trying to give a press conference this afternoon in Charlottesville:
https://twitter.com/HenryGraff/status/896793392876748804
https://twitter.com/C2Mhud/status/896825609397178368
BTW, I’m not going to condemn violence against Nazis.
But if someone advocates for it as a strategy to oppose them, I will make my point that it’s not effective.
This is a thing that happened: “Tiki puts out statement renouncing use of its torches by white nationalists in Charlottesville.”
The Bollingbrook Babbler points out a go-fund-me for the victims.
https://www.gofundme.com/united-cville-victim-relief
SC, #139
Nice! It makes me hopeful to see that there are still plenty of people among the common public that will not put up with ethnic cleansing of their friends and neighbors.
People who want to come out to talk about genocide should fear for their physical safety from random fellow citizens. That is one of the signs of a good, healthy society. :)
It’s not that we worship violence. It’s just that we’re tired of being told we have to take just one more punch to the face before were allowed to hit back.
Shouting down, banging dustbin lids, and chasing away is also viable, Far-right rally organiser chased away after Charlottesville speech (there is also a video at that link, plus some photographs at this link: Anti-racist rallies across the United States). And so is simply not tolerating the shite, Drunken American beaten up for giving Nazi salute in Germany (it’s unfortunate the nazi was drunk, as it opens the door slightly to excuses / obfuscation).