We’ve all been waiting for the Mighty Leaders of AtheoSkepticism to tell us who to vote for


And…Michael Shermer tells us he’s supporting Donald Trump.

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

What he likes about him is that he makes deals, and doesn’t have any specific plans. Because that’s a major plus.

Fuck me. Not only am I going to make the rifts a little deeper, I’m going to use the trench for a latrine.

Comments

  1. says

    ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

    No. No, I’m not. Can’t say I’m surprised, either. I’ll join you pissin’ in the trench.

  2. UnknownEric the Apostate says

    He was won over by Donald Trump’s “Barely Veiled Talk About One’s Penis” platform.

  3. says

    Are Shermer’s sycophant supporters going to line up with him behind the Drumpf, or are they going to flail about madly, denying that he said a thing?

  4. says

    Microraptor @ 4:

    Over on Patheos, Shermer claims that he’s not endorsing Trump.

    I’m not going to look, but I’ll have a guess: “I’m not endorsing him, I just like him, that’s all!”

  5. microraptor says

    Caine @6:

    Well, he says that Bernie’s too liberal to get elected, Hillary’s got a bunch of skeletons in her closet, and Cruz is too religious. He certainly seems to think that Trump is a better choice than the rest of the candidates.

  6. says

    Microraptor @ 7:

    He certainly seems to think that Trump is a better choice than the rest of the candidates.

    Right, which in Shermer’s world, doesn’t add up to endorsing him. Nope, not at all, not one tiny bit, oh no.

  7. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    @Caine, 6

    Apparently Shermer “has grown concerned about some of Trump’s other positions.” Nicely specific, there.
    I’m having a really hard time coming up with revelations about Trump’s positions restricted to the last month, to be honest with you, but I’m a non-American, so maybe there’s less obfuscation over here, or we simply don’t have the latest on his “drown the ducks” campaign?

  8. says

    I don’t see this as support. According to the author, he just likes that Trump is holding his cards close. (which is a generous translation of what Trump is doing imo)

    This article is ridiculous. The comparison to Tyson is insane.

  9. says

    Athywren @ 9:

    Apparently Shermer “has grown concerned about some of Trump’s other positions.”

    Oh, now that he’s gotten a reaction? Yeah. That’s Shermer all over, doesn’t think for five seconds before spewing shit, then starts backpedaling if people aren’t falling all over with praise. There aren’t any revelations, of course. At least, none for anyone paying attention. As with all things Shermer, I’d dearly like to dismiss him, but there are all those asshole juniors out there, who take his shit for gold.

    Todd Morgan @ 10:

    I don’t see this as support.

    Right. He [Shermer] just really, really likes the guy, that’s all! Already fucking covered, #6.

    The comparison to Tyson is insane.

    Obviously, you don’t like it, however, it’s not insane. It’s quite on point, actually.

  10. mudpuddles says

    The comparison to Tyson is insane.

    Yes I think its a bit of a stretch. And pointless, seeing as Shermer is such an awful smarmy wanker anyway; I’d think there’s no need to try to compare him with any other asshole.

  11. gmacs says

    Trump does have specific plans, though. He plans on murdering innocent people and rounding up others based on their religion/ethnicity. If he really believes in what he says, he’s a fascist. If he doesn’t, he’s enabling fascists.

    He’s also really shitty at making deals and running businesses.

    But Shermer seems to kinda like him. And Hemant, as always, is an apologist for the big guy.

  12. UnknownEric the Apostate says

    And Hemant, as always, is an apologist for the big guy.

    Hemant’s never met a movement ass he couldn’t kiss.

  13. says

    “…has grown concerned about some of Trump’s other positions.”

    Memo: If you haven’t been concerned about all of Trump’s positions, I’m not sure I can respect you.

  14. says

    mudpuddles @ 13:

    I’d think there’s no need to try to compare him with any other asshole.

    The comparison is between what they each said. Honestly, if people can’t manage basic comprehension, refrain from fucking commenting.

  15. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    I’d be willing to grant well poisoning on the Tyson quote, but they’re clearly related statements.

  16. says

    Athywren @ 18:

    I’d be willing to grant well poisoning on the Tyson quote, but they’re clearly related statements.

    I can go with that.

  17. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    Anyway, it’s kind of worrying to see a skeptic make such a statement in support of going in without any apparent plan whatsoever, beyond “scurry furriners – build a wall!”

  18. Richard Smith says

    @Athywren – not the moon you’re looking for (#20):

    build a wall!

    I just had a flash of the USA under Trump as a giant (not necessarily orange, but quite selfish), building a wall to keep everyone else out, and now I’ve got “You’re just building a wall to surround yourself,” running through my head.

  19. anteprepro says

    So from the Skepchick article, we have quotes saying that Shermer likes that Trump doesn’t have a plan and just makes shit up as he goes along, he “makes deals”, he is “amusing”, and that he is not very religious.

    From the e-mail posted by Hemant, he says further that he believes Trump will be willing to make deals with Democrats, that he wants a strong military and doesn’t want to use it (and explicitly says something along the lines of “unlike Obama”) . He claims he wasn’t endorsing Trump but simply was asked to say some positive things about him. Then says he is now Concerned about other things Trump has said (apparently something after February 8th when he made his initial comments. Trump was uncontroversial until then, I’m sure). And then he goes on to criticize every candidate who isn’t Trump and say he hasn’t decided who would vote for and isn’t endorsing anyone yet.

    So, what Caine guessed right off the bat without even reading it: “I’m not endorsing him, I just like him, that’s all!”
    Though he also tries to pretend he doesn’t really like him but makes a poor job of the act. So, yeah, typical Atheoskepticism at work!

  20. anteprepro says

    Richard Smith:

    I just had a flash of the USA under Trump as a giant (not necessarily orange, but quite selfish), building a wall to keep everyone else out, and now I’ve got “You’re just building a wall to surround yourself,” running through my head.

    And now I am imagining New America under Trump as the setting for Attack on Titan.

  21. martha says

    The first handful of comments over at Patheos are hysterical. You have to read them. (Micro raptor @4 posted a link)

  22. blf says

    Teh trum-prat is a case-study in lobotomized weasels, particularly the kind that spits toxic venom, which seems to turn victims into voodoo-like zombies blithering and stumbling to their own destruction. This can be hard to spot if yer screen is already caked with spittle.

  23. says

    PZ’s link @ 26:

    Trump really wasn’t kidding when he said he loves the “poorly educated.”

    Naturally. A con man wouldn’t be terribly interested in someone educated enough to think critically, or heavens forfend, someone who had been trained to be skeptical.*
     
    *Someone who was actually capable of employing skepticism, unlike a certain person.

  24. doubtthat says

    Oh shit, no way. That has to be a parody account or a troll or something, right?

    I’ve watched this happen so many times now: Someone who seems to be a respectable liberal: expresses the right views about the right topics, decries the ignorance and malice on the right…etc., suddenly called out on something by other members of the left (almost always race or women’s issues), and through the process of flipping out about that minor issue (stop saying “c^$%”), they start this death spiral into douchetastic glibertarianism.

    It’s happened to a bunch of people I know in meat space, but this has to be the highest profile example. Fucking Drumpf? What the goddamn hell? Shermer is an ass, obviously, but now the venom in his veins has caused him to abandon even his appreciation for science. He’s supporting an anti-vaxxer…seriously, what the fuck?

  25. mudpuddles says

    Honestly, if people can’t manage basic comprehension, refrain from fucking commenting

    Oh fuck off caine, Jeesus christ enough with the hyperactive trigger finger, The comparison in what they were saying is precisely what I was talking about Shermer’s words are enough to show him up, no need to stretch it to Tyson. Before you try to silence someone so curtly, fucking ask for clarification.

  26. mudpuddles says

    Grrr, itchy trigger finger myself there. Apologies for the aggression, caine, I’ve just come from a long day of conflict resolution where silencing tactics were used over and over, and getting it here from you boiled the blood. I should have taken a breath before posting.

  27. petesh says

    Wow, someone really hates you, PZ. Calls himself Sanderson and flings poo for no obvious reason. Strong arm, apparently, tosses it from “the eastern side of the pond” which is a strange locution, given that I, in California, am on the eastern side of a large pond myself. Probably makes it hard to sue his ass.

  28. robro says

    So, Shermer has “Some things I like about Donald Trump,” but now he has reservations. I’m glad he’s reassessed his position, but you have to wonder why he didn’t have those reservations when he did that interview. Trump has been pretty much Trump all along. I’ve seen no big change in Trump in the last six months, except perhaps to get more arrogant.

  29. Tethys says

    It is completely not shocking that Shermer would like Trump. They both see nothing wrong with the toxic male privilege/ exploitation/capitalism model of society. They have both profited enormously from adhering to to their abuser/abused model of internal reality, and so they truly cannot emotionally afford to acknowledge their own anti-social behaviors.

    I am so tired of sharing the world with the rapey exploitive dudes, and the way they deflect any criticism by closing ranks with the other he-man woman haters to endlessly and viciously gang-up on, and harass anyone who dares to notice they are sociopaths.

    I keep being reminded of a behavioral study I once read about rat behaviors, and what happens when the rat population became very over-populated. I know humans aren’t rats, but some of their behaviors seem similarly horrible. I have no idea where I read the study as it was pre-internet, and google isn’t helping.

  30. microraptor says

    antiprepro @23:

    Except that the rest of the world will build the wall to keep the Tita-Trump in.

  31. says

    I keep being reminded of a behavioral study I once read about rat behaviors, and what happens when the rat population became very over-populated

    Rat civilization doesn’t affect overpopulation the same way human civilization affects it. Rat studies are interesting but only bear on rats – so unless you’re planning on having overpopulated rat colonies, file it under “meh, social science.”

  32. says

    FWIW, the tyson quote isn’t his either. It’s a famous quote by Helmuth von Moltke.

    “Therefore no plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first contact with the main hostile force”

  33. Tethys says

    Meh, social science actually a fairly good summation of the problem shared by Shermer and Trump. Under population stress, male rats gang up and turn into violent predators of the most vulnerable members of their own population.

    Humans don’t generally eat their young, but the broad parallels in social behavior are striking.

  34. says

    Hemant got an email statement from him about this and it’s about as bewildering as you can imagine. And Hemant tries soooo hard to make Shermer’s comments look good (i.e. anti-Trump), it’s hilarious.

  35. F.O. says

    Both the accusation of Shermer supporting Trump and him quoting Tyson might very well be on the mark, but with the information available they seem a bit too far fetched.
    Given how flinging shit is common in the Atheists Rifts, I’d hold my hand: there are far more solid accusations to use against Shermer.

  36. HappyNat says

    Shermer’s explanation is even worse than the original statements. He wanted to say something nice about Trump to help the host of a show he likes? Way to go Captain Skeptic! He doesn’t even say he is not endorsing Trump just that he isn’t endorsing anyone. Then as noted Mehta goes out of his way to apologize about saying Shermer supported Trump, even though he did.

    The first line of his apology I thought he had some self awareness, “If you want to criticize someone’s beliefs, you should at least be able to describe those beliefs accurately.” because that describes Shermer to a T, but it’s really all our fault for listening to Shermer’s words and criticizing them.

  37. microraptor says

    Tethys @39:

    Didn’t the whole “eating their young” behavior only emerge after the rats were badly overcrowded in extremely unsanitary conditions where there was a severe shortage of food?

  38. Vicki, duly vaccinated tool of the feminist conspiracy says

    If someone asked me to “say some nice things about Trump,” the answer would be somewhere between “why?” and “fuck no, I am not praising that racist pig.”

    This far into a presidential campaign, if you’re asked to say something about a candidate, you should either stand by your words, or admit ignorance (in general or in specific) and say “no comment” or “I can’t comment on so-and-so’s tax proposal, I haven’t been following that.”

  39. says

    I can say some nice things about Trump! Here goes: He… isn’t Ted Cruz? Is that enough to get me interviewed by KRCW?

  40. unclefrogy says

    I had to go looking for the interview. It was part of a program called “To The Point” on KCRW an NPR station in the Los Angeles area which as a resident of I listen to often
    http://www.kcrw.com/news-culture/shows/to-the-point/donald-trump-the-man-behind-the-candidate
    Shermer comes off exactly as he has been characterized here. I would suspect that what he finds most attractive about Trump is his obvious a-morality but he is to much a weasel himself to say so out loud.
    pretty good program as are most of the broadcasts always in-depth
    “To The Point” is headed by veteran reporter Waren Olny,

    uncle frogy

  41. slithey tove (twas brillig (stevem)) says

    yeah (maybe) Trump occassionally says something I can agree with, but then in the next breath with contradict himself and claim to be totally consistent. He’s like a bag of random phrases that can sometimes be assembled into meaningful sentences, then rejumbled into meaninglessness.

  42. Tethys says

    microraptor

    Didn’t the whole “eating their young” behavior only emerge after the rats were badly overcrowded in extremely unsanitary conditions where there was a severe shortage of food?

    I can’t remember anything about the food or sanitation. I recall it as being a study on behavioral changes in a social species, and that overpopulation stress was what they were trying to model. The males ganging up to hurt other rats behavior only emerged when they got to density X. No luck trying to find a source.

  43. Tethys says

    I still cannot remember exactly where I read the rat studies, but the studies themselves are John Calhoun’s behavioral studies on crowding at NIHM. He coined the term ‘behavioral sink’ to describe the pathology that he observed in the overpopulated portions of the habitat. A 2008 article and some discussion can be found here. Food resources and sanitation were not issues in his controlled environments. Some rats lived normal rat lives in connected but not overcrowded portions of the habitat.

  44. andyo says

    The Tyson quote is about boxing, and it could have been said by any boxer. I don’t see how it says anything about the person that said it. I’m sure Tyson wasn’t thinking of Trump when he said it, too. Shermer was, but bringing in Tyson seems pointless except to parallel Shermer with a rapist, which can (and has been) done in more legitimate ways.

  45. newenlightenment says

    If someone asked me to “say some nice things about Trump,” the answer would be somewhere between “why?” and “fuck no, I am not praising that racist pig.”

    I can think of three things:
    1. One day he’ll die
    2.He probably doesn’t believe half the crap he spouts
    3. Cruz is worse

  46. blf says

    [Trum-prat] probably doesn’t believe half the crap he spouts

    Even if true, how is that better? For instance, whilst he says he wants to build a wall, what he may actually believe should be done is a preemptive nuclear strike on Mexico.

    Similarly, whilst he is reported as having recently said he will not order the military to do something illegal (such as torture), which is interpreted as a reversal of his previous statements that he wants the families of “terrorists” tortured, what is it that he actually believes? Perhaps that laws don’t apply to the military, “terrorists” and their families have no protection under the law, and in any case, laws don’t apply to him unless they include the word Trump in the title and every clause.

  47. Saganite, a haunter of demons says

    Okay, first I thought this had to be satire. But he’s serious. He backpaddled, of course, but even if he doesn’t technically support Trump, it’s pretty obvious he considers him agreeable on numerous issues. That’s already bad enough.

    You know, in a way I’m glad I was never an activist or anything with regards to atheism. I’d feel pretty badly about the state of “our movement”, if I had been invested in it. But like they say, we’re like a herd of cats, anyway.

  48. says

    @Tethys
    Is this what you had in mind?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink
    http://io9.gizmodo.com/how-rats-turned-their-private-paradise-into-a-terrifyin-1687584457

    I can understand the resistance of others. While I too would be willing to believe that we have group level behaviors in such conditions that we should know about, I would be very very careful about how I casually spoke of these studies. I have my own version in this and how it might relate to rape, dominance and power.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23663785

    You might want to go find some history accounts of similar situations involving humans. They exist and they will not be pleasant reading at all. But if anything from that is to be correlated with real situations in a useful manner it would have to be done.

  49. says

    Marcus Ranum

    Maybe Sam likes the wall idea.

    Now, now, now…
    Sam has never, does not and will never promote the idea of building a wall (please ignore the passage where he specifically lists conditions for building a wall). What Sam Harris proposes is to dig a 500ft deep trench and fill it with molten lava. This is clearly NOT the same as building a wall and totally fundamentally different

  50. consciousness razor says

    blf:

    [Trum-prat] probably doesn’t believe half the crap he spouts

    Even if true, how is that better? For instance, whilst he says he wants to build a wall, what he may actually believe should be done is a preemptive nuclear strike on Mexico.

    Well, more generally, whether or not the particulars of what he wants are worse than his publicized assholery suggests, this “nice thing to say about Trump” is that he’s a liar and a bullshitter. What he really believes is that bullshitting is acceptable, apparently because he only cares about getting power and fucking over anybody or anything that stands in the way. Of course that’s not a genuinely nice thing about him, but maybe it’s as close as you can honestly get.

    Saganite:

    What if the lava solidifies?

    Sam is always, and has only ever been, an “ideas guy.” Trivial details like that will sort themselves out by the grunts who have to do the work. The principle remains that the best thing to do may (or may not) be to build a trench 500 ft. deep and a couple thousand miles long, so that we can fill it with lava (by “we” I mean somebody else). To that end, we should establish trade with Bowser’s kingdom, because he and the other koopas seem to have a near infinite supply in their dungeons, which they’re not using efficiently to suppress the Mushroom extremists who are plaguing their lands. We can send Mexico the bill; and if they don’t pay, we’ll just build another one (maybe along the entire US coastline?) and send them a bill for that one too. Eventually, probably by the time there are lava pits on the Moon and around the entire solar system, someone will have paid.

  51. Nick Gotts says

    Judging by how unexpectedly poorly Trump is doing in Kansas and Maine (these are the only contests to report any results so far, and in both Cruz is well ahead of Trump), it seems an endorsement from Shermer is more toxic than one from David Duke :-p

  52. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    Whelp. I don’t know if I had any respect left for Michael Shermer, but I definitely know now that I have zero respect left for the person. Supporting Trump? WTF.

  53. Tethys says

    Brony

    Is this what you had in mind?

    I cited the author of the rat studies if anyone else cares to read them, and the term behavioral sink, so yes, that behavioral sink. Why are you explaining it to me? My first comment about rats clearly states that I know it is invalid to draw a one to one comparison between people and rats.

  54. anchor says

    “We’ve all been waiting for the Mighty Leaders of Atheoskeptism…”

    …to determine what “we” ought to think on anything…?

    I fear it will be a very long time before this (bowel) movement comes to understand that ‘leaders’ are not only unnecessary, but anathema to the idea of independence of thought, which is the foundation upon which the notion of atheism is alleged to rest. The idiotic excitement over the ‘four horseman of the apocalypse’ (for one prime and farcical example of the capacity for stupidity atheists have exhibited) be eternally damned.

  55. says

    I’m actually a bit surprised at how few Shermer-files are trying to spin this. There are some, but most seem to tilt in the direction of being disappointed or embarrassed. Maybe Shermer has finally talked so much shit that people stop taking him seriously. Wouldn’t be a moment too soon.

  56. Tethys says

    Brony

    I missed that part of your comment. My apo9logies.

    Oh, that explains your reply. Okay. Cheerfully accepted. Reading the real life equivalent in humans is not at all appealing, thanks. *shudder*

    LykeX

    I’m actually a bit surprised at how few Shermer-files are trying to spin this.

    I wonder if there is a name for this social phenomenon. The bro-code demands that bros always rush to the aid of a fellow bro with the full force of bro-privilege. They will vigorously defend their bro against the horrors of being accused when they learn of the crime, and even though they will never admit they were wrong when called on it in those blunt terms, they will privately learn to be better humans, and will very quietly not be rapists and disassociate themselves from being publicly linked to MS.

    yay, progress?

  57. DLC says

    The silliest excuse for voting for trump : “I don’t like him, but he’s probably going to win, so I’m voting for him”

    (unasked for plug; Sanders 2016! )