So Ron Lindsay just said this on twitter:
Free inquiry. Free expression. Not only are these indispensable in our quest for the truth but they’re necessary conditions 4 human dignity
A lovely sentiment, and completely misleading. This long-running argument has never been about “free speech” — no one’s free speech has been denied, as any glance at the raging and constant torrent of abuse will show. It’s been about the responsible recognition of what kind of speech supports that “human dignity” he wants to cloak himself in; it’s about realizing that free speech as we see it in that unfettered medium called the internet is going to produce mostly noise with only a little signal; it’s about the responsibility of organizations to pluck out and amplify the good and damp down the stupid.
It really is about taking sides.
Not taking sides — pretending to have a false objectivity that values all speech equally — is actually favoring the noise. It’s the pretense that a statement on twitter like “It is honorable, noble and good to change your mind if you are wrong” from Lauren Becker has equal weight with “Get out, Amanda, you not welcome here. Take your dogma elsewhere (you too, Ophelia)” from a troll who doesn’t deserve to be named. It’s the refusal to recognize that some of the people who support the same causes as CFI have been barraged with incessant hatred for about two years now — and that that hatred has been aimed at women and the people who support women’s rights. It’s a willingness to let your organization be affiliated with websites dedicated to misogyny.
A Voice for Men is essentially a mouthpiece for its editor, Paul Elam, who proposes to “expose misandry [hatred of men] on all levels in our culture.” Elam tosses down the gauntlet in his mission statement: “AVfM regards feminists, manginas [a derisive term for weak men], white knights [a similar derisive term, for males who identify as feminists] and other agents of misandry as a social malignancy. We do not consider them well intentioned or honest agents for their purported goals and extend to them no more courtesy or consideration than we would clansmen [sic], skinheads, neo Nazis or other purveyors of hate.” Register-Her.com, an affiliated website that vilifies women by name who have made supposedly false rape allegations (among other crimes against masculinity), is one of Elam’s signature “anti-hate” efforts. “Why are these women not in prison?” the site asks.
Oh, right. That’s just free speech. Where is the human dignity, though?
It’s also about being smart enough to see through the dishonesty of thugs who puff themselves up and call harassment a right, who claim tawdry garden-variety sexual bullying “free speech”. Amanda Marcotte has the clarity of thought to see right through this game.
If it seems baffling to you that people are “into” harassment, I don’t know what to tell you. Why else would people harass? (Don’t say autism, for the love of god. People on the spectrum struggle to interpret social signals. Harassers, on the other hand, are masters at manipulating social rules and actual physical space to creep people out as much as they can get away with. It requires careful study of social signaling, not the opposite.) I got harassed on the sidewalk the other day, because that’s just part of the atmosphere of being female. I didn’t catch exactly what the guy said, because he muttered it, but what he wanted out of the situation couldn’t have been clearer. He had that sly smile, that glint in his eye that harassers get when they manage to capture their target’s attention and make them uncomfortable. It’s the feeling of power they have over you, the little jolt they get from putting a bitch in her place. Why people harass is not a mystery. It makes them feel good to exert power. This motivation is all over the Twitter rampage from the pro-harassment forces. They love drowning out useful tweets about real information with their anti-feminist garbage and ranting. It makes them feel good, like they have power. They can harass you and get under your skin and make you write blog posts about them, and then they feel powerful. It’s all of one cloth, and it’s not about unexamined privilege. It’s about being an asshole. We’re asking them to give up this jolt of feeling powerful they get from making other people sad or angry. No wonder they resent us.
When they photoshop our faces onto porn, when they call us “manginas” and “cunts”, when they flood CFI conference streams with denigrating insults to the speakers, they are not making “free inquiry”, they are not using “free speech” in a “quest for truth” or to advance “human dignity”. It’s embarrassing to see the leader of a major freethought organization making excuses for the toxic, petty viciousness from the anti-feminists that has been plaguing this movement since a woman dared to politely ask for her share of that human dignity.
This is why I’ve lost all confidence in Ron Lindsay. He can talk about human dignity, but he doesn’t have the vision to actually lead CFI towards greater support for that principle.
We need a leadership that is willing to take sides. Otherwise, what’s the point of it all?
See also Secular Woman’s post on privilege.
treestump:
Well, I’ll tell you what: you find a place where the radfem position is a substantial part of the society, and guides the actual rules and mores of the people in that society, and I’ll take a look at it and see if I need to join you in Fighting The Good Fight For What’s Right.
I would suggest checking out old Star Trek episodes, webcomics about Dark Elves, or B&W Twilight Zone/Outer Limits episodes anviliciously written to Make Us Think About Deep Things.
Unless, of course, you’d like to actually give some real world examples.
In checking around for them, it might – eventually, gradually – dawn on you that while radfem positions running the real world are rare to the point of obscurity, patriarchal societies are a bit more common. So, if it’s all the same to you, I’d really rather concern myself with real things happening in the real world to real people, rather than the theoretical hypothetical problems of non-existent places.*
(*Unless you wanna talk about the ramifications of Alicorns being a created species, and the possibility of Twilight Sparkle having to watch her friends die due to her new-founded near-immortality. Then I’m all ears.)
Why do I get the impression that a real treestump would out debate the self proclaimed treestump?
Why even bother. Fuck off.
Sorry if the actual description of the conference shows that you are wrong. If you would prefer, I could hyperparse the title of the conference itself to show that you are wrong: Notice how the first word is “Women”? Notice how it isn’t “Secularism”, but “In Secularism”? Suggesting that the conference is primarily about “Women” and only secondarily about “Secularism”, insofar as we are talking about how Secularism affects Women, or we are talking about Secular Women?
But on a more serious note: Go fuck yourself, you dishonest, fuckwitted little shitspewer.
Josh, if we do not answer every blast from treestump’s anal trumpet, it will mean that we RADFEMS are suppressing treestumps right to communication.
Treestump, who said men are not permitted to speak? See, that’s your imagination working overtime again, just like your conspiracy theories. Seriously, how do you think you can defend these positions?
Yes, he had no business adding himself as anything other than “host” with a five minute “welcome here speech. What he did was pure male ego.
No, he was being dismissive of women and their experiences, at a conference about Women In Secularism, which described their experiences.
Like MRAs! You know you’ve lost when all you have to rely on is word games.
War is peace.
Ignorance is strength.
treestump is intelligence.
Cheese-is-rice, Treestump, you’re thick as a brick.
And yet no proof that anyone you are flinging shit at is “anti-equality”. Just stuff you pull out of your ass.
Sorry, I cannot and will not take anything you say seriously. You have not given me reason to do so.
Treestump, that is not at all what Josh said. I explained the tornado conspiracy remark. Please read for comprehension.
It’s hilarious because the stump just assumes that I’m a woman.
Way to show your true colors, Super Egalitarian simply defending a Decent Guy.
Treestump, the sexist shit can stop now, along with the ableist shit and the bullshit. Do you have anything else to offer or is this the only song and dance you know?
Now the troll is complaining about the cursing.
He does not understand that all of us are just playing with him now.
Because everyone should be able to know the intent of a random person!
treestump:
And here is me, not.
I get Josh’s reasoning, but I’m not certain I agree with it.
Did you have a point?
anteprepo, :] classic stuff, isn’t it?
Treestump, You think you explained something? That’s kinda sad.
Treestump, your sexist remark was sexist, even if directed toward a man. (Who for some reason you are calling a radfem? Just be honest. You misgendered someone.) It plays into the stereotype of women being hysterical. When a man is called a female gendered insult it implies that he is “just as bad as a woman”. So…yeah…education is a good thing. But you really shouldn’t belittle others until you get one of your own. You’ve mercilessly exposed your own fuckwittery in this thread. I think we can all tell that you aren’t exactly the most knowledgeable person. You might want to employ a little humility.
You are not even one tenth as funny as you think you are. Not surprising. You have shown that you and facts really do not get along.
Also, I have no desire to ever want to touch your ass. I never even hinted at that.
Oh, wait, you must be able to read the intention of a random stranger on the net.
(This troll makes Justin Vacula seem almost cogent.)
Sorry, missed the point-by point the first time around:
Um, no.
RW had made her position on further company quite clear.
She asked to be left alone. When someone does that, it’s rude to keep asking. When someone does something rude, it makes sense to remind them (and maybe people in general) not to do that.
That’s it, that’s all, that’s what happened.
…I’m sorry, I didn’t see the bit where you actually argued that anything I said was, yanno, wrong. Can you maybe clarify that part?
The bit where you show it’s not victim-blaming?
Or at least the bit where you show that victim-blaming is not wrong?
Otherwise, people here might suspect you think it was, and that you agree it’s wrong, and we wouldn’t want that, would we?
I suspect you were grasping this particular rhetorical dagger by the blade.
singing
I’m a little treestump
watch me pout.
Being an ass is
what I’m all about.
When I get all rotten
and I scream and shout.
Its’ to be expected,
I’m proud to be a lout.
This helps you how? As has been mentioned before in regards to slurs, (at very least in the thread that Nick Gotts linked to where you found the comics that you started salivating over) these kinds of insults:
1. Are played straight as insults when directing towards women.
2. Are used against men with the typical insulting connotation and with the additional connotation that “you are a woman, and this is bad” added on.
These kinds of insults, just like the slurs, are thoroughly characterized by sexist viewpoints and stereotypes. I would suggest that you simply apologize and retract those insults, and use less gendered insults and “metaphors” instead.
Or I would also suggest just fucking off, sparing us the burden of dealing with more of your bullshit, and yourself the burden of coming up with brand new ways to fuck up. Just a thought.
And we are all taking the piss out of you for being a factfree know nothing little ranter.
anteprepro is hardly angry. But I forget, just like every woman should know the intention of any random man, I expect you to know the intention of every person you interact with on the net. And get everyone’s gender right.
(Is treestump this stupid in real life or does he play stupid in order to be a troll?)
treestump:
Buh?
Seriously, how did you get that out of what I was saying there?
I went back and re-read my ‘trifecta’ post, just to see if I was crazier than usual or something. What happened is that a claim was made that bullying on the internet was caused by people complaining about bullying. I pointed out that such a sentiment was victim-blaming. I then said that victim-blaming was wrong, repulsive, and often used to put women down.
I really don’t know what you’re thinking I was saying, could you clarify?
Missed this one. You know, this is just more proof that your expectations of determining a stranger’s Intent are unrealistic. I am not angry with you, because you are just a minor nuisance. You can’t really provoke anger, or really frustration, from me though because I really do expect exactly the kind of shit you’ve been dropping all over this thread. I’m bemused, bordering on boredom, and just want to let you know that you are a clueless asshole. Sure, I don’t expect that to change, but I thought I should at least leave you with no excuses for being ignorant of the fact.
You know full well that that’s not how that term is commonly used.
I don’t know that. In fact, I strongly doubt it.
Will you please stop making assumptions and then using those assumptions as evidence!?!?! You’ve fallen among the scientists.
He acted in a threatening way. He communicated “I am more important than your stated wishes”; how many more stated wishes was he going to ignore? No way to tell in advance.
Fuck “inappropriate”. This is not a matter of the arbitrary rules of politeness. It was threatening.
FTW!
Hey dumbfuck, that doesn’t matter. The jokes were inappropriate for a work environment. And they were on the company clock, attending a conference on company monies. That is the context dumbshits like you ignore. And most companies have anti-harassment policies to prevent such inappropriate behavior in the work place. And it was against conference rules too. You need to find a clue to context. Each claim can’t be taken without context.
Oh. Looky here! The stupid troll does not understand that I am holding him to a standard that he insists that all women have.
Oh, you did not know anteprepro’s gender? I expect you to know just like you expect a woman to the the intent of any random man who approaches her.
(Any bets on treestump actually understanding this at all.)
The convention where it happened has a code of conduct :
I suppose it doesn’t count if they aren’t talking to you directly, huh?
I love that you and your ilk have gotten so OFFENDED about Adria Richards’s offense. Oh, and while still whining about the unfairness of it all, you conveniently overlook:
But, oh, think of teh menz!
Ah, the teaparty playbook – if it’s not actually a conspiracy, put a gate on the end of it! Poisons the well nicely, doncha know.
And besides, tell me you would buy this: “I swear, officer, I whipped my dick out for my wife! Not those ladies over there! I didn’t intend for them to see it! They have no right to be offended! And besides, they were talking about dicks last week during a party where everyone could hear it!” Does that context make it any less of a crime? (American Law statutes against indecent exposure are assumed to be your familiarity, apologies of they are not.)
No. Whoever takes that bet would win a shit-ton if treestump managed to grow the right clue, considering the long odds.
Treestump, you fact challenged little butt trumpeter, do you know what Rebecca Watson said.
“Guys, don’t do that.”
But do not let the facts get in the way of your one note solo.
Leave it to the fact challenged little dumbass to make a claim that was not make at all.
Now he is a JAQing off troll. (Just asking questions, just saying.)
So what? They were discussing just who they would like to “fork”, during a speech, while at work.
I know people like treestump have a difficult time understanding why this is wrong so just to be absolutely clear:
Tallking about which women your penis finds exciting is completely out of line. Don’t do that!
Cute. Why do you assume I have a dick?
Treestump is failing to meet the standard that he expects all women to have. He should just be able to “know” these things.
More to the point, why can’t you be more direct in your argument against the parallel I drew for you? No, you have to couch it in a passive-aggressive pseudo-humourous jab at my presumed social ignorance. Not that I’m shocked or upset or any mode of furious as you possibly hope I am, I’m just noting it for any onlookers to see what an ass you’re being.
On the internet, everybody has a dick.
And yet more fact free spewage . Yet he dares to call my point fucking daft.
Well it’s a shame you only have complete shitbags among your male social contacts, but I can’t say I’m surprised.
At this point, I think treeestump can just listen to Lily Allen.
How dare you ignore context…
This is why context matters, and why we laugh at your opinions.
Why should we take your opinion for anything other than a clueless unthinker bloviating nonsense?
Well considering RW isn’t a rad fem. your opinion, like your factoids are at odds with reality. Which is why I laugh at your inane opinions. There is no way to take them seriously.
treestump, I’m just curious. Do you even know any women?
Gee citation needed, or you are a liar and bullshitter.
Why? Because treestump says so. That should be enough to trump anyone’s fucking daft argument.
(Arguing is not one of treestump’s strengths. So far, self delusion is the only strength demonstrated. And that is not a point in his favor.)
Treestump:
This is what separates facts from your opinions. The ability to show third party evidence to back up your claims. And your claims are vacuous and self-serving nonsense lacking in reality.
Yep, according to treestump if Rebecca Watson had been deferential and minimized her reactions, than treestump would be supportive. But she said “Don’t do that!” and that is completely beyond the pale.
How dare she not preface her complaint with, ” it was pretty minor”. Obviously she deserves to be subjected to non-stop harassment for this sin against men everywhere. *spits*
Yes, treestump, we have differing opinions. But there is one major fucking difference between them. My opinion is based on the facts of the case. Calling Rebecca Watson a RADFEM over and over again does not make it true.
Also, given you outpouring of shit, I somehow doubt that you are “a fun smart person”. And I am grateful I am not likely to find out if you actually are or not.
Idiot troll.
Treestump, without showing your imaginary factoids are really facts, there is no reason to consider your inane opinions. Those opinions, like theology, appear to be built on self-serving lies.
why are you all indulging that idiotic conspiracy-troll? I’m all for feeding the toxic ones until they out themselves in frothing dumbosity, but this one already started out that way.
A. It’s raining too hard to work in the garden.
B. Even trolls can learn to be better people.
Jadehawk, in my case, I have not put on my red wooden troll stomping shoes in a while.
I am am getting bored with this one. I really hate it when a troll starts talking to me like we could actually be friends in really life. How fucking skevvy can you get.
And, oh yeah, fuck you, treestump.
Waiting for ARIDS’s field to be revealed to the fuckfaced idiot.
The fuckfaced idiot seems to disagree with the idea that opinion is not evidence.
Should I practice on my “surprised face” here?
You’re an idiot babe. It’s a wonder you still know how to breathe.
You got it in one. Now, can you actually provide real evidence that we should take your opinion as anything other than urgle-blurgle blather? Somehow, I don’t think so. Here’s links for your evidence pleasure: Google, Google Scholar.
What the fuck?
Can you even think of a less condescending way to say this?
Behaving the way he did is threatening. That’s my whole point.
*explodes* Did you even read my explanation near the bottom of the previous page? She had stated her wishes several times, and Elevator Guy had heard each of them.
…I didn’t know the name anteprepro was so difficult to read.
Wilhelm, Carl, Theodor & Elisabeth Troll.
Dude, “radfem” isn’t an insult. Radical feminism is a technical term with a pretty precise definition.
(Yes, I was surprised to learn this, too.)
The tree referenced in treestumps ‘nym is pretty clearly, at this point, neural.
Bored now.
treestump~ I hope it tastes like poo !
Seriously troll, is this the best you can do? Are you are the worlds smartest musca domestica larvae? They are quite fond of eating shit.
Picking up dog poo in the drizzle and mowing the lawn are 100% more interesting than reading such juvenile BS.
I miss the q cite comic sans tag.
And when did I call you that, fact free troll?
Oh wait. You only defense is shit you pull out of your ass.
And you wonder why people are calling you stupid.
You have left ample evidence.
Two lies in the above. RL was extremely condescending, and nobody here has the authority to tell CFI who their head should be. But the board should have a hard talk with RL. That as a major PR fiasco that never should have happened.
treestump:
She said at the bar, as she was leaving, to a crowd that included EG, that she didn’t care for company.
Did you not know that?
Or did you not care?
Or did you know, care, but just kinda hoped no-one else would know or care?
(I’m trying to work out ignorant v. stupid v. dishonest here.)
Nerd, how dare you confront treestump’s opinions with fact. That is just condescending bullshit.
Hint, fact free troll, it was not just people at FtB who were upset about Lindsay’s opening speech. And that is not just an opinion.
Playlist for lawn mowing.
No Doubt
Rock on horde.
;)
Wow this thread is frustrating. We’re not even getting good trolls anymore. Anyone for tennis instead?
Louis
Louis, you can play with treestump, but you’ll have to do it without a net.
I’ll referee.
Anyone for tennis?
CR,
Mind if I pick a different partner….
Louis
Dammit! This thread should have ended with a Monty Python sketch.
We can arrange that.
But I already did that with 619.
(Do high school kids and college students still watch Monty Python?)
Based on Boy, Girl, and FSiL, yes.
Oh, I say! ‘Salad Days’! One of Peckipah’s best.
If you now go to the <Slymepit, you will see that their newest member is Treestump.
He is just trying to get his Slymie-scouting badge.
Awww. How cute. I didn’t realize we were dealing with a fledgling.
They say every time teh menz don’t receive proper respect, an MRA gets its wings…
Not surprising. His opinion and reality are divorced enough to him to fit right in there. Couldn’t evidence his point either, which is typical of that group. But then, that will be the Achilles heel to bring them down…
Maybe he wanted to join up with the BraveHeroes all along, but was just confused about where they were.
Why is it that newbie slymies like to claim that we are as bad as the Slymepit before they dive in?
maybe he saw how successful Andy was at trolling here, and thought he’d give it a go himself.
just a thought.
It was obvious from early on he was Freeze Peacher who thought he shouldn’t be criticized for his OPINION no matter how at odds with reality it was. Fits right in over at the ‘pit.
Treestump has been banhammered.
Fine welcome, I just step off the plane at Minneapolis, I haven’t even gotten home yet, and I have to clean up a dumbass troll.
Don’t forget to pull up the roots.
The Pullet Patrol™ is grinding down the stump to -6 feet. The augur is oversized for the thin trunk that was treestump….
Two points of non-interest:
– Mulchy signed up for the slymepit to inquire about more of those comics he was drooling over.
-Also over that slymepit: A Mabus sighting.
The slymies are pretty obvious. The script is always Radfems! Rebecca Watson, Adriana, Radfems!
Claim complete neutrality, add in a few details about the OP, dogma, hiveminds, etc…lather, rinse, repeat.
I see that all of stumpys trolling has disappeared. Poor troll. All his comments got flooshed.
I hope that Karla Porter shows up to argue that they should open up talks with Mabus.
She told me in a tweet that we really should communicate with the WBC.
What of andywatson?
Fine welcome, I just step off the plane at Minneapolis, I haven’t even gotten home yet, and I have to clean up a dumbass troll.
The Termite-inator has Spoken!
Tethys,
Mostly they lather.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/rabid%20dog.jpeg
Janine,
She’s welcome to….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afzmwAKUppU.
But if I see a turd, I try not to step in it.
Jesus Christ, but these trolls are fucking stupid.
Look, when I ban you it’s because I detest YOU and YOUR ATTITUDE and your slimy behavior. Bouncing right back with a chipper new pseudonym does not fucking change anything.
GO AWAY AND STAY AWAY, ASSHOLE.
Welcome back, PZ.
The treestump insisted on showing us for hours that he was not very smart. Not surprised he is now morphing.
What would this thread look like if PZ replaced comments with
bunniesstrange denizens of the deep instead of just deleting them?And how do the poor slymies prove their bannings when they don’t even appear in the Dungeon?
Do they still get a Banned-from-Pharyngula merit badge?
Given the slymers’ apparent obsession with this place, it’s prolly all being archived or something.
All part of making sure they keep PZ “honest”. Because we all know how he constantly deletes and changes content.
That’s true, Janine. Why this post was something incredibly critical of PZ and look what he did to it! It’s practically a paean of praise now. I’d even exposed his sinister Wedge strategy feminist agenda to castrate all men, twice, before having them crushed beneath the kitten heel of his feminazi mangina minions as he strides to power in order to summon The Old Ones.
Or something. I’m not very up on the current conspiracy theory.
Louis
Right, keep me honest. Now that I’m back in the land of the convenient tools, I dug around and it looks like andywatson, treestump, and pharyngulahnas (and perhaps a few others) were all the same fucking sockpuppet.
And now he’s begging me to let him back on, saying that “Life is about fun, and I am a fun person with lots of friends.” Yeah, right. Too bad his friends are just his collection of socks, and his idea of having fun is making the argyle speak in a squeaky voice, and the wooly in a rumbly voice, and the dress sock speak in a posh accent, and they all tell each other they “want to be nice” and “a sense of humor also is important in life of course”.
Dumbass. The dishonesty and hypocrisy is so infuriating I’m tempted to also delete all the andywatson comments.
Gasp, shock. Who would have guessed (didn’t Nick Gotts
FWIW, I called it.
I knew “Andy” was doing nothing more than trolling.
still, people gotta haz their fun, both ways. the teeth must be kept sniny, etc etc.
They claim to outnumber the FTB/A+ community but on closer inspection turn out to be nothing but a basket of dirty laundry all generated by a small handful of slymies.
“Small handful of slymies” is such an obvious euphemism.