Oh, dear. All of the Christians who’ve been pounding this particular kind of argument into the ground are going to have to convert to Asatru now.
And I guess I’m going to have to start worshipping Loki.
Speaking of logical fallacies…
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
It’s presuppositionalism, so it must be true.
Hey, be careful I hear you get into all sorts of mischeif worshipping Loki.
OTOH, that could be fun! ;-)
You can’t hold up something with nothing, after all.
Oh & isn’t the answer an endless column of super-planet sized elephants and turles playing Atlas?
(The Greek Titan~ic giant not the map book or star in the Plieades.)
Well, better to worship the one with the hammer than the one nailed to a tree, I guess…
Argh! Typis. Turtles.
Its turtles all the way down – or so I’ve been told. By Terry Prachett and Stephen Hawking if memory serves!
everyone knows it’s turtles all the way down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
Pffft, Loki. I’ll stick with Iktomi. Much better trickster god. Besides, spider.
All atheists really do believe in Yggdrasil anyway, they just claim not to because they don’t like mead halls.
Everyone knows that.
Glen Davidson
In case folks were curious, Atlas is the star otherwise known as 27 Tauri :
http://stars.astro.illinois.edu/sow/atlas.html
Consider all those Vikings who died for their beliefs? Why would they do that if they weren’t convinced they were true?
And what about Lief Ericson’s saga of reaching Vinland? Storyteller, psycho, or settler? The evidence of Norse settlement at L’Anse aux Meadows as written about in the Sagas proves that everything Scandinavians ever said is true.
You atheists just want to deny all of this so that you can promote your aberrant live-without-fear-of-marauders-from-the-sea lifestyles.
@8. Caine, Fleur du mal : Coyote?
Anticipating scifi dolting his way over to this thread?
StevoR:
No. As I said, Spider. I’m half Oglala Lakota.
Depends how good your finger- gun is and how guillible the person you’re trying to rob is. If you can pretend to have a weapon convincing enough you might be able to pull that heist off with nothing!
I loved this.
that is all.
@ 14. Caine, Fleur du mal : Okay. That’s the something new that I’ve learned about today – I hadn’t heard of that one before. Cheers!
OP
“And I guess I’m going to have to start worshipping Loki.”
You mean you don’t already?
Man have you been missing out!!!
HEY ATHIESTS!
IF MY SCROTUM DOESN’T HOLD MY BALLS, WHAT PREVENTS MY BALLS FROM HITTING MY KNEES?
ATHIESTISMISTS 0
MY BALLS OVER 9000
HOW’S ABOUT THEM APPLES?
Louis
P.S. See my other argument from blow jobs (if blow jobs don’t feel good…) and also argument from rusty trombone (special occasions only).
Battleaxe goes in, battleaxe comes out.
Can’t explain that.
No, you’re wrong. There’s just one turtle carrying Discworld (technically, the turtle’s carrying the four elephants who are supporting Discworld).
Hawking was quoting one of those unsourced tales that usually gets assigned to Mark Twain, though in this case he assigned it to Bertrand Russell.
Caine, Fleur du mal @ #8:
As with Yahweh, Allah, et al, Iktomi is yet another incarnation of Loki, meant to dupe the Lakota into not believing in the Æsir.
Loki is all non-Norse gods, the ultimate trickster.
I know you’re kidding, but Scandinavian cultural imperialism isn’t really funnier than the Anglo-Germanic kind.
Besides, the Mormons beat you to the punch with the idea that First Nations Americans were just wayward once-Whites with garbled white beliefs.
Now I can’t get Louis’ scrotumless knee-balls out of my mind.
damnit
Convert to Asatru?
I couldn’t give a Frigg.
Pretty much the same style of argument as:
How can there be morality without God?
Everybody!
Do your balls hang low
Do they wobble to and fro,
Can you tie them in a knot?
Can you tie them in a bow?
Can you throw them over your shoulder
Like a longboat sailing soldier,
Do your balls… hang… low??
Rev BDC,
I live to serve.
No need for thanks.
Louis
Speak for yourself…
Brownian @ 23:
It’s a parody of presuppositional beliefs, intended to counter the Christian version. If one presupposes Loki, then all other belief systems can be dismissed as mere inventions of another godly mind. It’s no less a fallacy, of course, but cannot be overcome by additional presuppositional proclamations given its supersuppositional nature.
I use Loki simply because I’m familiar with Norse mythology, but it could be any one of the trickster gods from any pantheon. For example, Tony the Rigger, who delights in making mechanical traps to foil the other Pastafarian deities. Tony once caught FSM in a colander disguised within a swimming pool; when FSM went for a dip, Tony triggered the snare mechanism which lifted the colander out of the pool and trapped the hapless FSM.
Yes, one must always be wary of RiggerTony.
Even as an inbred Scandinavian, I have little faith in Horses. They are fickle animals and wont to try and throw you off*. I view them not as upholding any kind of stable world order. Although sometimes, I confess, I will sacrifice an apple to just to keep them on the amiable side. Of the eclectic BBQ fence.
Also, do not believe everything Ratatosk tells you.
* Especially the kind named after Przewalski; thor that may be just a false runour. But their foals are very cute and supposed to be tender roasted, if somewhat hard to catch.
Gypnir na slitnu,
En frekki squidna
Also, if Yggdrasil doesn’t exist then Ratatosk the Squirrel doesn’t have anywhere to live and that makes med sad :-(
Louis:
The aspirin held in between them?
Yggdrasil has nothing over my girlfriend’s 38-DDs which I worship daily.
And this Saturday, at the Minnesota Music Cafe, together we both shall worship The Lamont Cranston Band at around 8 o:clock pm. If you are a Minnesota Atheist -or not- you may wish to attend this “holy service” to ensure your safe passage into the æther.
You might notice from my comment number 11 in which I similarly parodied other apologetics typically used by Christians using Norse mythology and history that I quite understand the joke. I didn’t ask for an explanation, nor does one remove my objection, which I’ll restate since your response completely elides it:
It’s rather tasteless to tell someone of Native American heritage that shlker cultural mythology is simply a garbling of a religion some white people elsewhere correctly understood, considering that that very idea was used to diminish and disregard the religious and cultural practices of Native Americans by the people who participated in their near eradication. Supplanting the mythology of one privileged group of Europeans for another doesn’t change this.
It’s the problem with parodying claims that are inherently racist: it’s hard to construct a parallel that isn’t just as bigotted.
I’m sure it was all very accidental: I’m just calling attention to what I see are the problems with using the specific cultural target you did.
Right. So am I, not because of any particular interest in Norse mythology, but because it’s a privileged one among atheists and comic book fans. And, satire or not, your construction supports that.
I don’t mean to get all up in your ass for what was most likely unintentional, but as I said: Scandinavian cultural imperialism isn’t really funnier than the Anglo-Germanic kind.
Brownian:
Yes indeed. Thank you, Brownian. I’ll note that I did not find ogremeister’s comment the least bit amusing. I found it offensive, but decided to say nothing* because it’s so fucking standard for people to utterly dismiss anyone who is NA. If they even manage to notice in the first place, that is.
*I really have to stop that.
Or Vanatru, which worships the Vanir (the set of gods representing beauty, fertility, poetry and wisdom) rather than the Aesir (the set of gods representing war, battle and conquest.) Although, honestly, I think Odin and Thor are more compatible with Christian beliefs than Freyr and Kvasir.
Thanks, Caine. I was worried I was whitesplaining.
Brownian:
Heh. You’re the very last person I’d ever worry about in that respect.
Ah, PZ, now you’ve gone and runed it for the rest of us.
And I guess I’m going to have to start worshipping Loki.
If anything is running the universe, a bunch of violent but well-meaning, incompetent and argumentative drunks are much the most probable candidates. That was the justification of a friend who became an Odinist.
Because, phenotypically, I’m a swarthy southern Slav?
@ Brownian
It’s a minor nitpick and doesn’t detract from anything you said, but I wanted to point out that Scandinavians are technically just as Germanic as Anglo-Saxons are.
Whoops! Sorry about that. Thanks, dorfl.
Give me Surtr any day of the week, a giant with a flaming sword who is destined to do battle with the Æsir and also the major god Freyr during Ragnarök. It is said that after the battle the flames he brings will engulf the earth.
If you like Norse mythology look up the band Amon Amarth.
Brownian:
If you wish. Mostly, it’s that sexy brain of yourn.
“Scandinavians are technically just as Germanic as Anglo-Saxons are”
We in northernmost Scandinavia have exchanged a lot of genes with the Sami, which makes us second cousins with everybody having a shamanistic belief system :-)
Anyway, if you have read the Lucifer series of graphic novels by Mike Carey (an offshoot from Sandman) you will know that Loki cheerfully coexist with all the other gods ever invented (and makes fools of them whenever possible). And in one of the last books Fenris, the Big Wolf gets loose, intent of wiping out the multiverse. Almost as cool as Surtr.
Brownian @ #38:
I understand your intent, now, and it was indeed unintentional. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Caine, Fleur du mal @ #39:
Please accept my apologies for the offense.
When even a swarthy southern slav can tell us Scandihoovians from the Germans, though, you’re obviously wrong. So much for “we all look alike”.
Having said all of that, if comparative mythology is effective in counter Abrahamic apologetics, then it’s probably helpful if we move away from this tendency to constantly use one or a few mythologies as our source. It feeds into the Christian tendency to think there are only a handful of real beliefs out there of which theirs is the least/most silly and therefore true, as seen in foolishness such as Pascal’s Wager.
There are thousands of deities, gods, minor gods, and supernatural humans to choose from. Sure, it’s funny to note the dearth of ice giants represents fulfilled prophecy, but nothing destroys the idea that your belief system is special and—clickety-click, barbatrick!—therefore true when a hundred other deities share thematic similarities to yours and a thousand others don’t.
Sir James George Frazer ignited a shitstorm when he included Christianity as just one more mythology in his epic, The Golden Bough, because if there’s one thing proselytising monotheists can’t stand, it’s having thousands of potentially viable competitors.
Thank you, ogremeister!
ogremeister, accepted gladly and thank you!
I always thought Yahweh was a trickster god anyway, who managed to fool a bunch of gullible Middle Eastern shepherds into believing that he was responsible for creating Life, the Universe, and Everything. He just never dreamed they’d take his silly commandments THAT seriously.
Nope, not going to believe in the Norse gods. I hate mead and the last time I was in a fight was in third grade, so I don’t want their afterlife.
@Brownian
Good point. I’d been meaning to read the Kalevala one of these days anyway. And I’d really like to find out what the Celtic mythology was really about.
And it’s good hypothesis, since it makes predictions: If there wasn’t a Midgaardsorm, there wouldn’t be earthquakes. There are indeed earthquakes, so the Midgaardsorm must encircle the world.
Earthquakes are caused by this guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namazu_(Japanese_mythology)
I thought everyone knew…
I can’t wrap my neurons around the idea of Prof. Myers worshiping Loki, or much of anything, really. Coming from the U. of Minni- Minnnenn- Somewhere Up North And Cold, I’d more likely believe his claiming to be an _incarnation_ of Loki. I always had a fondness for the stories of Hermes and Coyote, myself. Almost as randomly, I like mead, even though I’m a southern olive/swarthy type.
Oh yes, SallyStrange (comment 55):
I always thought that biblical literalists had to twist logic into knots to misinterpret one of the commandments “thou shall have no other gods before me”. The Bible admits there are other gods, but the fundies don’t.
Actually, the various gods are just avatars of the ultimate trickster-god, N’yarlath-Hoteph: “Johannes Cabal: The Fear Institute (Johannes Cabal 3)” http://www.amazon.co.uk/Johannes-Cabal-The-Fear-Institute/dp/0755348001/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1335217604&sr=1-1
— — — — — — — —
Someone from “Somewhere Up North And Cold” might worship the utterly destructive Winnebago spirit. However, just like Ctul’hu, it makes no sense to actually worship it, as it kills indiscriminately.
Jerry:
It doesn’t just admit it, it outlines them, often by name, all throughout the OT. El Shaddai’s reasoning for selling his “chosen people” into slavery or other nastiness every other year or so was because they decided to worship other gods.
Jerry, the OT lists the Eloyim (aka the host) and pretty much agrees with the Canaanite mythology, except that the Canaanites said Ba’al won and the Judeans said Yaw won. YHWH didn’t evolve into the one and only until the Babylonian exile, where he first became the only god the Jews could worship, and then he became ‘the only god’. Oddly fundamentalists seem to be incapable of parsing this – possibly because that would require them to actually read their book of magic incantations instead of just letting some charlatan tell them what to believe it says.
What about Uzume?
I like my goddesses with brains and a sense of humour.
Oh, Norse gods! That’s why I haven’t heard of any equine dieties…
Need to brush up on my runic.
Oh, lord, stuck on Loki again.
Look, the christists are beaten by the Aesir before they even get started. Think of the days of the week; we see tuesday, wodensday, thursday, friggsday and then some probably named by those pesky Romans (what did the Romans ever do for us, eh?). See any chrislamist names in there? QED.
Is brainism allowed here these days? Shocking.
Brownian, thank you for the godchecker.com URL; you might also enjoy pantheon.org
Tim:
The Horde™ tends to encephalophilia. It’s a good thing.
Oh, lord, stuck on Loki again.
If that’s a Creedence Clearwater Revival reference, damn, that was subtle.
Caine, Fleur du mal says:
Yes… “your balls for dinner.”
Known as Anansi on other continents.
No One:
Nothing to do with Anansi. Jesus Christ, I should learn to never, ever post anything ndn.
What a Maroon@67, I see what you did there.
tim rowledge@68, “thursday”? I thought it was Thor’s day.
Caine, Fleur du mal says:
My sincerest apologies for causing distress. If I could take my post back I would.
I’m not worshipping anybody who puts up such a lousy representation of a hammer. That’s what that funny shape in the poster is, folks, the hammer of Thor. Supposedly.
Mjolnir is a mighty weapon, not some scrappy engraved amulet. I’m going to keep worshipping Thor as portrayed in Marvel Comics, thanks.
Good point.
Jesus said he was coming back “soon” to kill eveyone and destroy the earth. He is now 2,000 years late.
Thor and Odin said they were going to get rid of the ice giants.
No one has seen any ice giants in a long time. Which religion is the real one here?
Ms. Daisy
/snort
You win an internets!
rickschauer
Yeah, creepy comment is creepy and makes it so I definetly avoid you…Thanks at least for the red flag warning!
Caine
I’m sorry Caine =(
I appreciate the sharing you’ve done and it’s extremely informative.
You and meeting NA here in AZ tell their stories has opened my eyes to the bullshit I’ve been taught. I’m working on educating myself and want to be an ally. You’ve made this place safe for me and I promise to keep my eyes out for this kind of bullshit. At the very least I can back you up and keep my foot out of mouth. If I every pull some shit like up thread please call me on it, I don’t like making you feel bad =(
See, I have a choice. Norse (or Horse as I thought it was at first) gods are fine and all, but I have absolutely no Scandinavian in me. So what I can do is just worship them as a kind of… homage to them.
But then I thought – why would I want to worship the Norse gods?
Huitzilopochtli, Quetzalcoatl, and Xochipilli are my gods! Now, who wants to come over for a little sacrifice? :D
@Caine:
Sadly I have no idea about my tribe’s mythology anymore. The Pamunkey converted to Christianity, wiped out pretty much the entirety of their cultural heritage, and acclimated to the new America as soon as things started looking crappy for them. The only thing we have left is our pottery, and even that’s just a retread of the same exact two stories over and over again.
@tim rowledge, Ersatz Haderach: Thanks back for pantheon.org
Didn’t see it until you called it. My hat is off to Maroon. And my hair is a mess.
This person probably might, Katherine. (This is my go-to site when I can’t remember when the Tlacaxipehualiztli (The Flaying of Men) festival for sacrificing to Xipe Totec is. It’s in March. Just FYI.)
No One:
My apologies, my temper has been on a short leash lately.
J_A_L, thank you. You’ve been fine. ♥
Kat Lorraine:
That’s devastating. The Pamunkey were of the Powhatan nation though, right? So while specific Pamunkey mythology is lost (a shame, seeing they were the largest faction of the Algonquin language tribes), it probably had something in common with Powhatan mythology. They have some interesting gods.
@Caine:
Yea. The Pamunkey were part of the Powhatan. They probably shared some beliefs, but it’s hard to tell cause I haven’t seen any of the history of it. Basically we lost all traditional beliefs by the end of the 16th century.
Er, I mean the 18th century.