And it isn’t pretty. Finally, someone notices the similarities between violent, angry misogynists and violent, angry racists, and calls the MRA’s out on their lies about women.
The men’s movement also includes mail-order-bride shoppers, unregenerate batterers, and wannabe pickup artists who are eager to learn the secrets of “game”—the psychological tricks that supposedly make it easy to seduce women. George Sodini, who confided his seething rage at women to his blog before shooting 12 women, three of them fatally, was one of the latter. Before his 2009 murder spree at a Pittsburgh-area gym, he was a student — though clearly not a very apt one — of R. Don Steele, the author of How to Date Young Women: For Men Over 35. “I dress good, am clean-shaven, bathe, touch of cologne — yet 30 million women rejected me over an 18 or 25-year period,” Sodini wrote with the kind of pathos presumably typical of Steele’s readers.
They also conveniently label the pariah sites of the men’s movement — if you want to know what sites to avoid, or what urls to preemptively put in your blog filters, that’s very handy.
(via Man Boobz)
I see the Slime Pit didn’t make the list of pariah websites. But we knew about it already.
A touch of cologne can’t hide a bucketful of tool.
About time.
2012 is the Year of the War on Women.
IMO though, the MRA’s are what was said above.
Worse is the Tea Party/GOP/fundie xian death cult armies for their War on Women. They have a lot of power, and are trying to get more.
Rather than annoy, threaten, harass, etc. a few women at a time, they can annoy, threaten, harass, a few tens of millions of women at a time. To start with they are all forced birthers and female slavers. It goes downhill from there.
New Hamshire voted a few days ago to remove a contraception requirement from insurance policies that offer prescription drug coverage.
A law that had been on the books for 12 years without anyone noticing or complaining about it. Of course, it was a legislature controlled by the GOP.
Tea Party 1 Women 0 here. Oddly enough, so far overall nationwide, the Tea Party is ahead in their War on Women.
Women are beaten, raped, stalked, sexually harassed, denied reproductive autonomy, discriminated against, burdened with most domestic and relationship labor and neither paid nor appreciated for it, and systematically impoverished. But that is as nothing to the plight of the poor, poor menz who can’t get laid.
Let me elaborate on what I just said here: I do not give a fraction of a shit. It’s not my problem. It’s not society’s problem. Despite the misogynist transactional view of sex, with women “having” it and men “getting it” from us in some way (and thereby lowering our “value”), many, many women cannot get laid. We’re “too fat,” “too old,” disabled, “ugly,” “too intellectual,” or otherwise deemed unfuckable by the patriarchy. Somehow, despite all the messages we get that we are unworthy of taking up space on earth, we manage not to shoot up classrooms or gyms. Not only due to lack of testosterone. Due to lack of entitlement.
People are entitled to seek out sexual relationships, but nobody is entitled to sex from any other person, regardless of gender, orientation, or anything else. Men who can’t attract women? Deal with it. You’re not being rejected because you don’t know the right “techniques.” You’re being rejected because you don’t have enough to offer, and/or because you’re seeking out women that are bad matches for you simply because you want to fuck them and you think that what your penis wants trumps everything.
Want to change your “luck”? Improve yourself in a substantial manner. Get a hobby. Learn a new language. Volunteer for a good cause (no, the Libertarian Party doesn’t count). Read, and I don’t mean PUA manuals. If you need to, take a course in social skills that doesn’t focus on “scoring.” Mingle with other people, men and women alike, the women regardless of how “hot” they are. You can do this in classrooms, in political organizations, in hobbyist and other social groups. Learn to be around women as people like yourself, not as “targets” that exist solely for your gratification.
In other words, get outside your own head. Because, even if you end up not getting laid, you will be much, much happier. Trust me.
I lol’d.
Really though this sums up the issue. It’s all about superficial changes and primping and playing games. It’s not about assessing the person you are.
FTFY.
Feels like it’s been a lot more than this year.
Well you know, I was born perfect — they kept telling me that all throughout elementary school; of course it’s you that has to change and not ME!!~
@Ms Daisy: THIS. So much this.
Reminds me of a nasty creeper who I had the misfortune of RPing with once. Always talked to a woman’s chest rather than her face (unless she was like me and didn’t have much in way of bust and then he’d talk to the wall behind the woman in question rather than looking at her). Made his character creepily hit on any female characters and if that failed (and it always did), his character would threaten rape (“Heeeyyyyyy, since we’re both takin’ cover here, we might as well get it ow-on.” *dirty look* “There are combat droids trying to shoot us right now.” “Well, I’m a tank and you’re just a hacker. I could force the issue.”)
He said stuff like, “Well, you’re a woman. Therefore you’re useless.” And so on.
He tried to pinch my ass. I did a finger lock and told him that if his hand came anywhere near me again, the offending digits would be broken. Further, if he tried anything with any of the other women in the room, the offending digits would be broken. I have considerable training in martial arts so that was not an empty threat – I could do it if I wanted to, and believe me, I was sorely tempted.
He only lasted one game session because the women in the group went to the GM and unanimously gave the GM the “him or us” ultimatim. GM hemmed and hawed about wanting to give him a chance but eventually conceded that gaming is about fun, this guy was making it very un-fun for a third of the people in the room and kicked the guy out.
Our GM has since come around to seeing it our way – mainly because I’ve given him reams and reams of literature reflecting that if a guy jokes like that in public, chances are he’s not joking and he actually thinks that way. I think the GM had male privilege blinders on and didn’t realize that we didn’t feel simple annoyance at the guy – we were simultaneously enraged and threatened by his behavior. Once I explained that it was the same as if you had a guy spouting white supremacist crap, refusing to look at anyone who wasn’t white, and insinuating that he’d like to beat up people of visible minorities in the same room as our GM (who is a visible minority), he got it.
Jesus fuck, am I tired of that crap. So many asshole men get endless “chances” that no woman would ever get. I’m glad your GM finally came around.
Oh, and I should add something to my previous list of suggestions: Take some science courses from accredited schools. Because, while I can’t always keep up with the science discussions here on Pharyngula, some of the SCIENCY!! comments on the XKCD thread made me downright embarrassed for the dudes who left them. No, the so-called “friend zone” has no relation or relevance to the incest taboo. Jesus and eggs on toast, you make Answers in Genesis look like they know what they’re talking about.
Could you imagine how much more rejection and violence there would be if cults the “promise keepers” and mormons tried arranging marriages? It’s fortunate that arranged marriage isn’t very common in western cultures.
A blatantly obvious cause of men being rejected is the attitude of the men themselves, not the women. Women are going to be put off by men who see women as there for sex, as property, as replacement mothers, or other reasons.
The sort of men who are able to get dates with women are (mostly) those who can talk to women when dating isn’t involved, whether that be as friends, coworkers, neighbors, etc. Yes, there are exceptions where men are scum and women want to spend time with them (re: “Hot Chicks With Douchebags”), but people tend to go with their own kind, i.e. normal with normal.
The odd thing about this whole topic is that typical patriarchal attitudes on male-female relationships in human societies are supported by the vast majority of evolution-denying religious organizations – who also ignore that similar alpha-male dominated structures are common in our nearest relatives, chimpanzees.
See this: “Usually, the alpha male can have any female he wants” – BBC video
Of course, some might say that this is the ‘natural state’ of affairs, so it’s fine – but then, why are you wearing clothes?
This is just more evidence that religious belief can be explained by science, with God as the great alpha chimp in the sky. In other worlds, religious belief systems can be seen as primitive social behavior partly aimed at maintaining alpha male superiority in human societies. Which seems absolutely hilarious, doesn’t it?
I wouldn’t trust a guy who says this out loud. And I’m a dude. He’s just trying to justify something. What kind of complaint is this, anyway? And what follows, complaining that he can’t get laid, well that’s just serialkillerish.
andyo,
Well, yeah. He did shoot up a gym.
From the article over at SPLC:
[Bolding mine.]
What the fucking fuck?
Shit. This MRA bullshit is even fucking worse than I had thought.
Never heard of Tom Ball. Apparently he set himself on fire and died. Because he was $3,000 behind on his child support after a divorce.
Once, we were all sitting around in a coffee house. Some guy was complaining about the court ordering him to pay child support. My friend summed it up. “Hey, what’s wrong with supporting your kids?”. Kids are people too and they need to eat and all that.
PS He has a wikipedia article. It looks to be highly slanted by MRA’s but I don’t care enough to dig further.
Raven, and also Audley:
Wikipedia has a number of MRA editors who devote a lot of time and energy toward keeping relevant articles slanted in their favor. There’s a decent Feministe post about Ball, and David Futrelle has also mentioned him in the context of MRAs who find him “inspiring.”
However, he don’t grammar good.
Am I the only one who doubts it’s physically possible for 30 million women to have “rejected” one person in that time period?
I mean, surely, since there are roughly 3.50 billion women on the planet, it just couldn’t be that he was “accepted” by 3.47 billion of them. That’s because there’s simply not enough time, and his request for a time machine was also rejected (by all the women, naturally — the men were on his side). Of course, it’s also obvious that every woman on the planet must either “reject” or “accept” him. Therefore, he vastly underestimated how many women “rejected” him.
The really irritating thing for me is that the MRA have to an extent made “Feminism” a dirty word. And it really shouldn’t be. Feminism except in ugly extreme cases way in the outliers is about making Men and Women equal. So the really disgusting thing about the MRA is that they aren’t really reacting to Misandry (and REAL misandry should be called out), they’re trying to keep Women less than Men. No matter what they say the MRA movement is rotten to its very core, and its poison makes people raise eyebrows when I as a man say that I’m a feminist.
He was obviously entitled to every single one of their sweet, sweet vaginas, and thus the lack of women lining up to sexually gratify him means he got cheated out of his rightful possessions.
I mean, if Brownian can get a line for ghey sex, why can’t he get a line for blowjobs with no strings attached??
Oh gawd I’m so sorry. I was taking about ghey secks of course.
Once, we were all sitting around in a coffee house. Some guy was complaining about the court ordering him to pay child support. My friend summed it up. “Hey, what’s wrong with supporting your kids?”. Kids are people too and they need to eat and all that.
And if you don’t pay it, your kids end up like me, where people wouldn’t even tell me my scumbag father was dead until well after the funeral. They probably knew I would have gotten to wherever that joke of a ceremony was being held and made it clear how glad I was that the world was now a much better place with that piece of shit no longer polluting it.
They still won’t tell me where he’s buried, for some strange reason.
If anything was ever a clear sign that you see all women as a monolith, and one that owes you something, this is it.
consciousness razor says:
Maybe it was a class action rejection.
LOL, thought so.
The xians, especially the Fundies, Catholics and Mormons spend endless hours editing wikipedia to slant it their way. At one time they had Eric Rudolph, the MD assassin as an atheist. He is a Catholic.
Wikipedia is a world resource but I always assume an article is slanted until proved differently.
Obviously, so like I said, his calculations were incorrect. He was undoubtedly much more of a reject than he had estimated, despite being entitled. Of course, I do understand that MRAssholes aren’t comfortable with reality, because reality doesn’t give a fuck about them, even though all they want is to get fucked. That is not a dilemma I can solve, except by suggesting that they find some method of fucking themselves, if that is possible.
consciousness razor sayeth:
Even for the shorter time period, it works out at 1 rejection every 19 seconds. With the right logistics, it would be perfectly possible.
I quite like epikts version. I’d definitely partake in such a thing.
Rev. B.D. Chimp FTW!
Also, Ms. Daisy Cutter: you beat me to it. Every time.
Does anyone else recall or has seen Queer Eye for the Straight Guy? It’s a “reality” show in which each episode 5 gay men help a straight guy make some changes to help him with his relationship with his wife/girlfriend. Too bad the MRAs are also mostly homophobic too, otherwise they might have gay friends who could help them out with more constructive advice than you can obtain from this “game” nitwit.
Also, a quick side-note: I played the hand I was dealt. Now I’m middle-aged and single. And folks, sometimes That’s the way the ball bounces. Life: no warranties, no guarantees.
You don’t see me shooting anyone. I also do not expect nor demand to have everyone else do something for me. There exists no emergency to which other people are supposed to respond. MRAs: grow the fuck up.
[meta]
Queer Eye just got added to Netflix Streaming. (If you subscribe) I highly recommend it to homophobes and other sheltered sorts.
#17 – Ms Daisy, right on!
Men oppressed? Riiiight! I’m getting so tired of this “Poor me, I’m oppressed” routine by those who in reality hold most of the cards in this society. To my fellow, though obviously brain damaged, Y chromos, foolishly crying in their beers…“Loss of privilege does not equate to oppression.”
Coincidence?
http://xkcd.com/1027/
(Sorry if this was posted already. I haven’t the time to read the whole thread at the moment. :D)
Definitely related, Shiroferetto: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/03/09/xkcd-puas
what’s fucked up is that he thought that this was somehow going above-board, when most of it is a matter of personal taste (some people do not go for clean-shaven, and some can’t stand cologne; and “dress good [sic]” is entirely subjective.), and what’s left is simply being house-trained; because really, not being able to smell you from across the street is basic civilized hygiene.
but I guess entitlement is the main problem of MRAs, so it isn’t surprising that this one thought that looking/smelling better than your average long-time homeless guy makes him entitled to women’s bodies.
if you look the creep up on wikipedia, you’ll find a quote of him saying “There are 30 million desirable women in the US (my estimate)”. Telling. Anyway, yeah, he was whining because the 20% of US women he finds good enough for himself didn’t acknowledge his existence by dropping what they were doing and going to whereverthefuck he was living to fuck him.
A lot like, “I don’t rape or beat women, so why don’t these bitches like me?!”
Or a long discussion thread I saw not that long ago, featuring a man who whined about how unfaaayyyyyyuuurrrrr it was for women to expect men to take off of the torn jeans and T-shirts they’ve been wearing for the last four days, shower, put on some nicer pants and a nice shirt, and go out with the woman to a restaurant that serves something a little better than pizza or chicken fingers. Every single strawman you can think of, from food aversion to social anxiety to depression to “shallowness,” came up in that thread, when the problem was not rooted in clothing, food choice, or sociability.
@drolfe: Hah. Awesome. Yeah.
Geez, what creeps.
You know why I don’t have a girlfriend at the moment? Because I’m generally antisocial, and don’t talk to a lot of people! The people I do talk to tend to like me well enough, but really, I don’t go out looking to meet new people… pretty much ever.
Part of the reason for that is that going out to meet people specifically to get something out of them isn’t something I like or feel comfortable doing. Imagine that! When I go out into the world, I’m not generally looking to start a relationship with people!
But these guys are kinda pathetic… waa waa waa, I can’t get a date, how dare all women, who I for some reason think are some strange hivemind with a singular set of beliefs, reactions and desires, reject me?
Boo hoo. I mean, I’m not perfect. Not everyone gets along with me. But geez… it’s kind of embarrassing, seeing all the men who act like this. I see them in my daily life, too.
[RANT]
When someone says to me that they “dress good, are clean-shaven, bathe, touch of cologne” I think this really is at the level of “I breathe” and demonstrates they are likely to be a muppet.
Regardless of the specific subjective elements (for example the use of cologne or “dressing good”, whatever that is), sticking a modicum of effort into one’s appearance is hardly over and above basic concerns for a social adult interested in pleasant encounters with people they desire sexually. I’m not talking about over-primped, cologne drowned, plucked show ponies in the latest designer gear, I’m talking about the basic effort required to give a reasonable impression of oneself and demonstrate the basic respect one should have for people around one.
The entitlement behind “I wash therefore I deserve pussy” is so odious as to be amazing. Imagine a well presented chap walking up to a lady and opening with the line “Hey baby, let’s not turn this rape into a murder” (about the most disgusting line I can remember hearing). No cologne in the world is EVER getting that guy laid. Even if he looks like George Clooney, is carrying his Nobel Peace Prize, his billion pound stock portfolio and several other tedious cliches about shallow things that women supposedly enjoy. (It’s okay, I know “they” don’t, I’m not appealing to those stereotypes, I’m mocking them)
Doesn’t it occur to these bozos that managing to scrape the funk out of their armpits is not an achievement? Not being an inconsiderate arsehole is not something to be proud of, it’s the fucking default.
I’m not talking about people with a variety of physical or mental disabilities/conditions that struggle/need help here, that’s a different kettle of fish. I’m talking about otherwise able people thinking that just getting out of bed makes them a special snowflake and they should be instantly granted access to the pant areas of any passing sexually attractive person. It’s beyond stupid.
[/RANT]
Louis
*cheers Louis*
Besides, more simply, BEING AN ENTITLED JERK IS A TURN-OFF. Honestly. There are various genders and orientations of horny people who aren’t hung up on clothing or hygiene or chicken fingers, and when a couple of ’em find each other, more power to them. But a partnership that starts out with one person thinking they own the other is just not going to end well.
Pteryxx, #39,
Indeed. I’m not one of them, nor am I an obsessive clean freak, live and let live sayeth I. The world would be a dull place if we were all alike.
I don’t think this is a moral or ethical thing, beyond the simple dictates of courtesy, I think it’s a pragmatic thing. The majority of folks one encounters when seeking potential sexual partners are likely to be unimpressed by a lack of effort with the basics of personal hygiene. If one is not hung up on primping etc, or perhaps if one’s paraphilia (and we all have ’em) extends to active dislike of primping etc and preferring the unprimped human body, I’d guess this is still a second date, or at least second sentence, kind of revelation!
I’m guessing “Hi, smell my sweaty crotch. SMELL IT!” is not going to be a great opener most of the time. I might be wrong, but I’d bet against it.
Louis
@ Louis #38:
Imagine a well presented chap walking up to a lady and opening with the line “Hey baby, let’s not turn this rape into a murder” (about the most disgusting line I can remember hearing).
You actually *heard* someone say that?!
That’s terrifying.
Guys like that shouldn’t be out in public—they should be in prison.
What an educational yet horrible read.
Wow. A whole nother sexist subculture I’d never have heard of but for the internet.
Always a new devil to fight. I guess the SPLC is running out of Klansmen or something.
Abdul Alhazred,
Uh, no. Not so much. A quick tour of their site shows that hate groups (specifically radical right-wing hate groups (you know, white power groups and the like)) have been growing in numbers the past few years.
There are plenty of klansmen left to fight, which you would have known if you had read the information that was provided.
Louis,
Oh, for fuck’s sake. There goes another keyboard.
Thanks Louis. Thanks a lot. :p
@Abdul alhazred
I just saw an article the other day about how even the Klan is running out of Klansmen, so it’s no surprise that the SPLC is branching out.
@Louis
It’s even worse than just feeling entitled to sex simply for meeting the minimal standards for being out in public. They feel entitled to sex specifically from those women whom they find the most attractive. Someone noted earlier that that “30 million rejections” figure was arrived at by the MRA calculating how many women were in the top 20% appearance by his standards. In other words, he considers meeting the basic standards of public behavior to put him out of the league of 80% of the women on the planet.
Unlike most of them, this has almost negative power to affect people, really. Can’t even organize a march or other RL gathering XD
Once, we were all sitting around in a coffee house. Some guy was complaining about the court ordering him to pay child support. My friend summed it up. “Hey, what’s wrong with supporting your kids?”. Kids are people too and they need to eat and all that.
I remember dealing on another forum with a guy who argued vehemently for the establishment of some sort of voucher system, so that he could “safely” pay child support without having to worry that his ex- might be getting some benefit from “his” money. See, if she used “his” money to pay the heating bill, that heated the entire house — including the portion SHE used. If she used the support payment to buy groceries, then SHE might also eat some of those groceries. Paying the electric bill covered lighting for the entire house, and so on.
To be rejected by 30,000,000 women is actually pretty impressive. That’s having 2.5 rejections per minute for 23 years. Or being rejected by the entire population of Canada.
One would think that by pure chance alone that he would have hit on a girl that likes douche bags or has incredible low standards.
I’d be a bit upset if over 13 thousand of any social thing (save perhaps very small things,) rejected me per day, whether in a single day or as an average over time. That didn’t happen to this douchebag though. I could imagine him sending out spam mail in that volume and acting like it was a real attempt at reaching out to someone and a real, personal rejection- can anything be done to reach the people that are so confused?
I know!
Statistically speaking he should have lucked out. I mean, isn’t that one of the PUA’s favorite was of ‘getting some?’ Pester women until you find one receptive to your obnoxiousness?
Ms Daisy Cutter said it perfectly.
I am glad to see the SPLC realizing that groups like this are as much hate groups as skinheads, neo-Nazis and the like.
Never before the 2012 election cycle did I think the “True Forced Loneliness” Movement (I’m hesitantafraid about linking, but look it up) had a chance to become mainstream… [Sigh.]
A few more random thoughts. Sadly, I’m old enough to have seen the debut of a “Mens’ Rights” magazine in the 80s. I LOL’d and thought that those wacky writers for Mad Magazine or National Lampoon did such a hilarious job coming up with such absurdity. I actually had an argument with a friend at the time over whether this was satire.
The tangential mention of whiners whining about paying child support reminds me of one of the biggest ongoing crimes ever. Women in the U.S. do not have Federal process for obtaining child support. According to the U.S. Census unpaid child support cost women about $13 billion a year (2007, the latest year for which I could easily find data). As just one example, all a guy has to do is move to Florida and he’s home free. (Florida does not honor civil judgements obtained out of state). Not kidding. I’m sure there’s other ways to avoid paying. Also, the state-to-state “system” has gaping flaws. One requirement is for women to have their address reported to their ex regardless of a history of domestic violence. Brilliant.
footnote: http://www.census.gov/prod/2009pubs/p60-237.pdf
I think some of the MRA crowd are true sociopaths, but then there are just sad pathetic guys who never learned to deal with their emotions. As someone who had a terribly passive and repressed father, who essentially checked of my life out when I was 10 years old, and a mother with self-esteem issues, it has been something of a lifelong struggle to grapple with feelings of rejection and self-worth. I had to learn to refocus what was frustration at women into a healthy criticism of my own character.
Simply put, these guys can’t handle rejection from women and hate them for it because it makes them feel worthless. They literally lash out with violent words and deeds because they are out of other ideas on how to deal with it. This Sodini guy probably dwelled on the fact that nobody loved him, and tortured himself by imagining rejection from every woman he encountered. This self-abuse leads to a miserable, horrible, emotionally crippled person who sees women collectively and individually as his tormetors, rather than himself, who is the real guilty party.
This isn’t to excuse or create pity for these people, but rather to point out the shame that these people didn’t have to end up like this. I believe that poor male role models and generational propagation of bad emotional health continue to create these monsters.
In my opinion the focus should be on children, and educating parents. More than anything, my contribution to society is going to be raising my 1 year old son to be a gentle, confident boy who respects himself and others. By the time these kids are adolescents or adults, it’s much harder and more resource-intensive to correct it. I’m not sure how you convince a misogynist to raise his kid to not be one.
Louis@34 – “Let’s not make this rape a murder?” Seriously? If someone actually said that to me, he’d probably end up face-first in the coleslaw in an armbar, just to be on the safe side. Creepy doesn’t even begin to cover it.
[sarcasm, including ethnic stereotype humor] Well, given the great value Canadians place on good manners and courtesy, doesn’t it follow logically that the whole country would reject him en masse?
[/sarcasm]
If only entire countries rejected this sort of idiot. I might move there.
“Let’s not make this rape a murder?”
Please pass the pepper spray.
I would go further than that. “Feminism” IS about making men and women equal. Thus those handful of outliers, however they self-describe, don’t qualify.
(Kinda makes you wish we’d picked a different label, back in the day. >.>)
Thank you. It’s nice to see one’s concerns acknowledged in a context other than attempts by douchebags to use them (IE, social difficulties) as a stalking horse for dysempathic entitlement.
FIFY. (Unless there’s a special system only single fathers have access to, I guess.)
In all other respects, that’s appalling, and one more reason I’m glad I declined to ask my ex-wife to pay child support. I’m sure one of her AA buddies would tell her about this, and she’d be off to Flo…
…you know, given what a horrible influence she seems to be, that might be convenient. I’ll have to think on this.
Back to the topic. >.>
Eddyline #41, Tapetum #55, and Sadunlap #57,
That line, which doesn’t bear repeating again, is one amongst many I’ve heard used. Admittedly the male (not a man, barely a person) who used the line in question thought he was being self deprecatingly witty, but I and some others had a quiet chat with him after we heard him. He decided it was a very bad idea to remain with our group after that. I can’t imagine why.
I could elaborate about the entire situation and the joyful antics we observed this male get up to, but I would rather not cause mass rage.
Louis
Oh sweet babby Jebus, Louis, I cannot imagine what I’d do if confronted with that line. I’m getting all over stabby just thinking about it.
While these groups may not be able to ‘muster’ marches, their ideas are pervasive and attractive to men and boys who don’t want to have to learn to deal with less privilege.
“Legitimate self-defense.”
The problem is that she wouldn’t meet his standards. Any woman who would let him hit on her would be too low for him to consider. It’s like Groucho Marx’s comment “I don’t care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.”
FTFY. Sodini didn’t shoot up a gym because he was upset about women like me rejecting him. Not that women who aren’t in our society’s ideal shouldn’t universally reject scum like him; I just think he wasn’t all that upset about it. (Though a suprising number of men get very antagonistic when I reject them, as if showing an “ugly” woman any attention at all requires her to fuck them out of gratitude.)
Nope. An opaque bucket might work, though.
Preferably with a tightly fastened lid.
“I dress good, am clean-shaven, bathe, touch of cologne — yet 30 million women rejected me over an 18 or 25-year period,”
Pfft, why is he surprised? He violates his facial hair and still expects something?!
This is what the “Men’s Movement” has morphed into?
Sure has changed from the days when we used to drum around the campfire naked and discuss Robert Bly.
A bunch of clueless Dorks, Dweebs, and bitter divorced men. And then there’s the dangerous ones.
I don’t know much about the PUA trainers’ philosophy, but I’m willing to bet that most of them don’t recommend having such low self-esteem and personal standards that there are 30 million people whom you’d accept as relationship partners.
Isn’t this part of the larger irony that anything aimed explicitly at “promoting self-esteem” ends up reinforcing the low self-esteem of the suckers who buy it?
@Nepenthe #61
Points well taken. It would be going to far to try and diagnose exactly what was going on in this guy’s mind that caused him to mass murder. His comment about being rejected by 30 million reminds me of the mindset that self-inflicted torture might produce. And I would agree that your version is accurate, he probably didn’t see these these women as anything but targets for sex. Again, though, this is a symptom of a problem where men aren’t even taught how to have a real relationship with a woman, and why it’s a “father failure” problem in my book.
@ Louis #38:
Imagine a well presented chap walking up to a lady and opening with the line “Hey baby, let’s not turn this rape into a murder” (about the most disgusting line I can remember hearing).
“Thank God you’re here, Officer. A man came up to me and tried to force me to have sex. He threatened to kill me if I said no. I was afraid I would die. There wasn’t anything else I could do.
What does he look like? A lot like that dead guy there… and there… and there… and way over there.”
Quote:
30 million women rejected me over an 18 or 25-year period
That’s 2-3 women per minute, assuming he doesn’t sleep or work. :)
I think the Dixie Chicks had the right idea with this level of MRA fuckwittery.
The cologne probably wasn’t sufficient to mask the “asshole” scent.
jayarrrr #68
You win one internets.
Anuran, #71,
LOL well yes, whilst I agree with the sentiment, hell I agree with the fictional actions (I’ve never pretended to be nice), that is one reason I would oppose concealed carry laws. ;-)
Louis
Seabisquick: To reiterate, it is not my problem, nor society’s problem, if these guys “can’t handle rejection from women.” Except insofar as they should be arrested and prosecuted for “lashing out” with violent deeds, and orgs like the SPLC should keep an eye on them if they’re “lashing out” with violent words.
Grown-ass men. That’s what they are. They may not have great social skills, but by virtue of their gender and sexual orientation they are much more privileged than the women they resent, and white men seem overrepresented among PUAs as well. Their emotions are their responsibility.
Lots of women grew up with abusive, neglectful parents, but we don’t get excused for “lashing out.” We’re demonized for it. For example: Men kill their entire families are characterized as, “Wow, he must have snapped. Maybe it was the economy. Maybe his wife was a nagging bitch or was going to take him for all his money in a divorce.” Women who kill their entire families? Consider the raging hatred directed at Andrea Yates, who was being used as a broodmare by a fundie xtian shitstain who didn’t give a damn about her psychiatric health. So excuse me if I don’t boo hoo hoo over these poor ickle menz who think that an entire gender should bear the brunt of their emotional problems.
And, as Nepenthe said, they only deign to notice women they want to fuck. Any woman who doesn’t live up to extremely high patriarchal standards for fuckability is invisible to them.
If I was a woman that would be incentive enough to avoid the extremely high patriarchal standards for fuckability.
I made a blog post about this yesterday where I focused more on the connections between MRAs and Anders Behring Breivik’s manifesto (me being Norwegian and all). The SPLC website discusses this too, and I just elaborated a bit.
http://www.purplenoize.com/2012/03/mra-war-on-women.html
“dress good”
You mean “dress well.” Make that 30 million and one, you’ve just been rejected by a post-menopausal grammar nazi.
I was recently deeply disappointed in a video by TheAmazingAtheist in which he gets all worked up because a female audience laughed at sexist outrageous comments by Sharon Osborne- and no feminists came forward to condemn them! Feminists are despicable! How dare they get distracted by junk like this:
• Louisiana: the removal of an ectopic pregnancy, or removal of a dead fetus is considered an illegal abortion.”
– when Sharon Osborne needs correcting!
Extreme weight gain in a short period or anorexia can be an indicator of sexual abuse in women and girls.
@Ms. Daisy Cutter
Yes! There’s a reason that we have the term “murder-suicide” and that they’re considered unremarkable.
I’m going to be critical of Azkyroth here, but before I do, I should note that his view in this thread is approximately one that I used to hold, so I have some personal sympathy for him. His co-opting of feminism is typical to many men who are generally supportive of equality, and it’s not as though there aren’t some thoughtful arguments for preferring equality.
No, no it doesn’t. And it shouldn’t make you wish that either. The term clearly emphasizes who needs their power relatively increased, and it has the added bonus of turning off those guys who can’t stand to admit that there’s no equivalent to patriarchy.
Jordan Savage, I think she put it well: «men can’t be leading decision makers in the women’s movement. Understanding something intellectually and being empathetic and considerate is brilliant and necessary, but it is totally different to experiencing something first-hand».
Hershele Ostropoler has a healthy way of looking at it: «I always thought feminism isn’t about equality. It’s about fighting (especially institutional) sexism against women and the (especially institutional) oppression of women; if people who aren’t women benefit, that’s good, but it’s not really the goal.»
tinfoil hattie puts it bluntly: «I don’t give a damn about whether or not men feel included in feminism. It’s not about men. They don’t get to define it, they don’t get to say what is or isn’t feminist».
Now, this isn’t to say that you or I don’t get to have our opinions about the way things ought to be. It’s almost unavoidable that we’ll form such opinions anyway, so that’s hardly worth worrying about. And we can try to argue for our views, though we have no right to be heard. But this much is certain: you and I do not get to authoritatively state — as you’ve attempted to do here — who is a feminist and who is not, because the decision simply is not up to us; it’s not about us, because ultimately we are not the stakeholders; in the end feminism does not exist for us.
There is at least one important way in which men cannot be equal to women, and that is in determining the direction or scope of the women’s movement.
If you really want a movement in which men are equal to women, internally in the structure of that movement, then you should look elsewhere, and you should pick up one of those “humanist” or “equalist” terms for yourself, and drop “feminism”.
What I suspect you’re getting at (correct me if I’m wrong and this is more specifically some anti-Daly or anti-Solanas sentiment) is a dismissal of separatist feminism. Of course you don’t have to declare yourself in support of separatism. But you should really try to understand why it seemed necessary to those who embraced it, and, even, seems necessary to those who still do. You can only hope they’re wrong.
Nepenthe, I’ve started seeing that phenomenon referred to as “family annihilation,” but not in a widespread manner.
SGBM: Agreed completely. It’s not the place of any man to tell feminists how to “do” feminism, including the choice of a name for the movement. Quite frankly, I’m tired of hearing about how “exclusionary” it is. Tough shit. It’s a movement primarily to improve the standing of women in relation to men.
That’s a basic requirement for having any kind of relationship with me.
It does not entitle anything else.
Wow. First of all, a whole lot of men who don’t get laid manage to avoid going on shooting sprees, so don’t you fucking dare make any kind of statement about “entitlement” based on one goddamn person. Seriously, fuck you. Personally, I do not get laid and I can deal with it. No problem. I don’t expect anyone to pity-fuck me, and I don’t hate women.
Also, newsflash: Contrary to the belief of a lot of you dickbags, swearing and violent insults don’t make you smart. Sure, it might work as a silencing mechanism sometimes, but that’s pretty much it. Personally, I’m used to people insulting me and questioning my humanity, so it really kind of washes off my back.
Secondly, Daisy Cutter is fucking hilarious.
Personally, if I got so many insults and questions about my humanity that I started to get used to it, I would take a close look at myself and think about trying to change some things.
But none of that socially aware self-examination for you, right?
feralboy12 #87
But you aren’t a malignant narcissist. So you’re not a good example.
Nah. I like to frequent feminist sites, and since I’m male, the consensus is that my problems don’t matter and/or I don’t really have problems. Sometimes I take offense to this, and post, and then I get some pretty vicious insults, empty threats re. my death, fantasies about me being aborted, impaled on a porcupine, etc. I don’t consider that constructive criticism, so yeah.
relevant
That guy looks nothing like me. I have a friendly face, a lazy eye, and a shock of soft brown hair.
Also, I shouldn’t put all the blame on feminists. There’s a lot of people that like to tell me I am worthless!
I like to frequent feminist sites, and I’m male, and I do occasionally talk about my problems, yet as I recall no one on these sites has ever said that my problems don’t matter and/or I don’t really have problems.
Therefore I must conclude that if anyone has said those things — which I do not believe, but hey, for the sake of argument — it’s not because you’re male.
There may be some congruence between these statements.
The one common denominator there is you.
oh, hey, matriarchy is here. guess he didn’t have the guts to infest the heart attack thread, after being schooled on that topic previously.
entitlement starts a lot sooner than when a man shoots up a gym. you, for example, have in the past made VERY entitled comments.
your comment history here and on manboobs is evidence to the contrary.
it doesn’t make us any less smart, either. and at least we don’t feel the need to announce our “high IQ” like some other people I could mention…
also, gendered slurs are not welcome here, so knock it off.
you’re such a liar. and lousy at it, too.
child, not everything revolves around you.
That one’s actually true, but it’s because the only things he has to whine about are his being 2 inches below average height and his inability to get laid.
Ahahahaha, pull the other one dear, it plays Afro Sergeant.
No seriously, stop, you’re killing me XD
Um, no, I am not entitled. Quote me being entitled. You can’t, because I’m not entitled.
Secondly, re. my problems, I can read between the lines. Not everything needs to be explicitly stated. For example, on this thread: do you think people would be anywhere near as scathing toward female PUAs? Because I guarantee you they exist. Not in the same numbers, and maybe it manifests a little differently, but there is a lot of sexual bitterness among women as well.
Also, Rutee, FYI, there are a lot of things I can’t do because of my vision problems. I’m not saying it’s the worst oppression evar (don’t want to be like you guys), but I have to deal with some things. I also have OCD, mild Tourette’s, and depression.
But again, I don’t think that makes me better than anyone else, because I don’t think in terms of the Oppression Olympics.
1)people haven’t said those things, they’ve only refuted matriarchy’s claims that a)gendered violence against men is worse than against women, and b)that male on male violence, when it’s not aimed at LGBT folk, is not gendered violence
2)matriarchy’s specific problems are relatively small, especially considering the grandiose claims he tends to make based on those. according to conversations on manboobs, he’s a spoiled 20-year-old straight white kid studying on his mom’s dime. His problems amount to being pissy because he thinks women won’t fuck him (and “spit” on him, as he claimed once) because he’s short and has a (barely noticeable, apparently) lazy eye, and to having been through a one-year-stretch of verbal & emotional abuse (in high-school, presumably)
your handle is a form of entitlement, your comments about how men are more oppressed are a form of entitlement (especially the crap you spewed recently about the focus on women’s heart health issues). everything that claims that dismantling male privilege is a form of male oppression is a form of entitlement.
no, you can’t. you project a lot, and you are paranoid, but that’s about it.
rest assured that female predators are just as scorned. however, female predators do not feed into cultural narratives about sexuality, and thus don’t present a systemic problem the way male predators do.
Also, pill’s take on separatism is very interesting.
Sure, I’ll try to understand them, because I try to understand every point of view. In the end, I have come to consider them unreasonable. They’re free to believe what they want, of course. And I’m free to believe them to be assholes. Well, not all of them. But I’d say the proportion is similar to asshole MRAs and non-asshole MRAs.
there you are, projecting an lying again. we are quite aware of our privilege in non-gendered contexts.
entirely unsurprisingly, you’d be wrong, both in terms of frequency and in terms of intensity.
Also, I’m not spoiled. I work hard in school. I have TWO jobs. You can call me lucky in some ways (straight, white, cis privileges), I wouldn’t disagree, though I’m also unlucky in other ways (I don’t benefit from female privilege, for example). But don’t call me spoiled.
You seem to think you’re entitled to behave in a manner that causes a lot of people to question your humanity, and never feel the need to examine that behavior. Remember this one?
says the guy calling himself matriarchy who made the claim that “Go red for Women” was a sign of oppression against men.
see? spoiled.
honeybunch, there’s no such thing as female privilege.
Another thing that’s hilarious is how cursory white feminists are in their acknowledgement of their own privilege. They’ll uncomfortably mention in once in a while and then wallow in their own “oppression” 95% of the time. Without those meager victim credits, you wouldn’t be able to sleep at night, is what I think.
I wish you would dissolve in a pool of acid.
Failing that, fuck off.
no honeybunch, we’re not you, so this doesn’t apply to us. stop projecting all over us, it’s kind of gross.
Doesn’t think in terms of Oppression Olympics, though. Nope. Never.
It makes me angry, sure it does. Not that angry, because I know people who stake their entire fucking existence and reduce the rest of the world to identity politics are a minority. At least, I hope so. I am fully aware that I’m lucky in some respects- most notably, that I’m middle class, because of course classism is a more pressing issue than both racism and sexism. But, there you go.
matriarchy, you absolutely are spoiled. you go to one of the best universities in the US, something others can only dream of because they don’t have your resources.
It’s called satire, Cassandra. You remember a guy called Jonathan Swift? Pawned.
“Doesn’t think in terms of Oppression Olympics, though. Nope. Never.”
So I’m spoiled because I have class privilege? I’m lucky, sure, although I got some financial aid. You’re only spoiled if you don’t recognize when you’re lucky. I do.
Free drinks for hot women is privilege guys, totes mcgoats on par with 30% in your paycheck.
Serial Liars, they are not believed. Especially since the only thing you do is troll interwebz sites XD
no honeybunch, if the “meager victim credits” line was an attempt at satire, you failed at it. A Modest Proposal that was not. it wasn’t even a poe-impaired bit of satire. it just wasn’t satirical at all. it was simple projection.
Cupcake, unless all your posts here have been satire, you really don’t need to bother with this defense.
Again, though, no Oppression Olympics here!
Personally, the fact that I was raised lower-class has affected my life much less negatively than the multiple rapes and gendered abuse and consistent objectification and internalized misogynistic body-hatred and gaslighting (especially since that intersects with genuine mental health issues). But hey. You know. Me and my meager victim credits. Matriarchy, have you fucked off yet?
self-refuting idiots are amusing. unchallenging, but amusing.
I dropped the “female privilege” bomb in there to watch the reactions and perhaps make a sociological point. It’s very telling how defensive some of you guys got, how desperate that your one victim credit was being denied you. How do you think men feel?
Cassandra, that sucks, but I think we can agree that not all women experience gendered oppression that severely.
P.S. What the hell happened to my killfile? :(
Dude, you have never once, not in 20 or 30 threads, ever substantiated your claims of female privilege. The only ‘sociological point’ is that you suck at sociology.
Fun Fact: The wage gap is mostly a myth.
ROTFLMAO
entitled and pissy because if they’re white, cis, straight, and middle-class, and their only disability is a lazy eye, they have no “victim credits” at all, so they have to make up some
fun fact: matriarchy is lying again
Um, I don’t think I need to substantiate anything, ok Rutee? I’m especially not interested in entering into a dialogue with a community as chock-full of abusive assholes as this one.
Doesn’t fucking matter. It’s degrees of the same shit, and a great many of the women here have stories just as “severe” or more so than mine. You know where you are, right? You know where you’re complaining about female privilege? You know that one in six women has suffered rape or attempted rape in the US?
“I’m not being defensive. You’re the one who’s being defensive. Why is it always the other guy who’s being defensive?”
Matriarchy: A one-line summary.
No, the CONSAD report just collapses full time and part time, and eliminates benefits from its examinations of pay. And it still found a wage gap, it was just a ‘mere’ 17% instead of the 28ish it is in most industries.
But go on, mediocrity XD
Um, I’m not “complaining” about female privilege, I’m categorically stating it as a thing that exists, in my estimation. This doesn’t erase the pain of women at all… at least, any more than the constant bray of “male privilege” erases men’s. Maybe, if you have a problem with it, you could think about how you’ve made men feel.
Um, I don’t think I need to substantiate anything, ok Rutee? of course you do. if you’re going to make a claim that it exists, you are going to have to substantiate it. Otherwise you can’t complain about having your assertions ridiculed and dismissed out of hand.
being called out on your bullshit != abuse. that you could ever think so is another sign that you’re pretty fucking spoiled
And you know that not all of us are/have always been white middle-class straight cis women, right?
You do know that?
So go. Never return. Stop trolling websites.
matriarchy
Wow!
He sured pwned
usyou!(I didn’t fall for it.)
Oh. I just never considered that before. I am positively wailing in remorse.
considering that it doesn’t, that’s definitely complaining. considering that you’re not interested in making a case that it exists, and instead just throw it around defensively, that’s definitely complaining.
actually, no, it’s whining
/points and laughs
false equivalence; still the world’s most annoying logical fallacy.
yeah, i know. having your privilege questioned and called out to your face fucking hurts. that’s no excuse to throw a hissy fit though.
Also, CC, sorry about just vanishing. Anyone else who cared too, I guess, though prolly not many if any XD
Cassandra, of course I know not everyone here is white, straight, cis, etc.
But I bet most of you are, because most feminists are.
Maybe some of the women here should recognize that, as people who aren’t men, they really aren’t qualified to comment on men’s lives and men’s oppressions. Certainly, they aren’t qualified to sneeringly dismiss men’s own lived experiences. The arrogance is astounding.
Check your privilege.
don’t confuse him with this “intersectionality” thing. he’s overwhelmed with monoaxial concepts privilege already :-p
omfg. I totally missed that gem over the content-based stupid.
I don’t think I ever thought I’d actually get to laugh at someone misspelling internet slang :-D
I thought you were used to it. Just rolls off your back, right?
*relieved, the most hugs*
I thought I’d try’n keep my distance in case I’d offended you in some way… I’m endlessly glad to see you again!
Then stop acting as if we are, numskull. It’s really fucking annoying to those of us who actually are marginalized in other ways, and I’m not keen on having to correct you over and over about it.
And I bet you feel no need whatsoever to substantiate that claim.
lol. you suck at statistics, too, i see.
Fun Fact
Most feminists are white, straight, cis, etc.
etc.???
I’m not sneeringly dismissing men’s own lived experiences. I’m sneeringly dismissing you and your avalanche of bullshit regarding men’s lived experiences.
At first I just spockbrowed at it because I had no idea what it was supposed to say, but now I realize that he was trying to internet-slang, and every time I scroll past Daisy’s post I burst into giggles and can’t stop :D
middle-class and ablebodied, I’m guessing. because we’re all Susan B Anthony clones, you know.
and as a side-note, for all the whining matriarchy does about how feminists only have one victim credit, I very much doubt he’d like womanism any more. Renee from Womanist Musings would kick his butt hard if he ever tried posting his shit over there.
ladies and gentlemen: the best form of flattery.
that’s how it goes in social movements. first they deny it, then they appropriate it, and then we win.
Says the guy who sees no need to adjust his behavior despite getting enough accusations of inhumanity to get “used to it.”
Says the guy who feels no need to substantiate his beliefs.
Eh, I’m not going to ignore that feminism has race, class, etc problems on the whole. I mean, they’re demonstrably fewer than the little troll’s, but they still exist. And it still wouldn’t mean anything special about special about feminists and women, because it’s bog standard.
Incidental note, as a nonwhite woman who has fairly little privilege, fuck off. I just got done telling a bunch of white atheists to stop using black people’s problems to score points on other white people. Same applies to you.
Victim credits? We get victim credits now!? Woohoo! Can I cash mine in? What do I get for having been raped? Mentally ill? Can I do a combo for “raped due to mental illness”?
I’ve been eying some new living room furniture for a while; hope I have enough.
Note: It sucks that feminism fails so frequently on other axes. But literally everyone does. Feminists don’t do so especially more than everyone else, which does little to salve it. If it weren’t, you know, affecting real people, watching all the social justice movements fail at each other would probably be really funny, but it does, so it isn’t.
Rutee, aren’t you educated? Aren’t you a citizen of the US? You have a fuck ton of privilege.
No fair!
I will get absolutely no victim credits!
(does a hangover count?)
sorry, I didn’t mean to make it sound as if I were. But what MRAL is doing is very much the equivalent of right wingers calling OWS dangerous and deranged abnd anti-woman because they’re not sufficiently less sexist than the American baseline, even when the right-wingers themselves are more sexist than the American baseline.
tl;dr: motes and beams
lol. i know what matriarchy is trying to say, and for once he wouldn’t even be completely wrong, but that narrow phrasing is fucking hilarious given the international nature of Pharyngula.
because in fact, I’m more privileged, citizenship-wise, than my boyfriend. And it’s not me who has the US citizenship.
I’m not sure, but I don’t think we get to cash in our victim credits for real goods and services :( I think their only significant meaning (to matriarchy, whose estimation and lived experience is after all the only one that matters) is whether we’re allowed to complain about oppression. See, because matriarchy, being a young white straight middle-class man, is an appropriate judge of when other people are oppressed enough to want not to be oppressed. It’s this whole thing.
You see, I know people. I’m perceptive. I have the ability to peer into people’s souls, and understand the cogs of the machine. And I know that a lot of you guys pride yourselves on your oppressions. You need them. That’s what I think, and I’m rarely wrong.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Cassandra, I consider myself a man-boy. Also, I’m technically not able-bodied, HAH! I bet most of you are, so YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO ME!
Wow. You might just be the best example of the Dunning-Kruger effect I’ve ever seen.
wait, no, not emphatic enough:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh, I know what the little idiot is doing. That’s why I made it clear he was being a racist, classist little fuckwit just now. He is trying to distract from his numerous failings by pointing out that – surprriiiiiiise – Feminism isn’t perfect by a long shot. No worries here.
I have class privilege, yes, along with neurotypical. You’re still appropriating my problems to try to score points on feminism, because you’re a miserable, pathetic little toad of a human being who can’t own up to any of the shit he has, and who has to try to validate his existence with negative attention from blogs.
Nah, sorry for leaving the impression.
Get lost already, kiddo.
you should take a hint from Rick Perry and stop being in the bettin’ business. because you’d lose that one.
Jadehawk, I’m sorry to hear you have a boyfriend. It must be hard to be around someone you hate so much.
Trollin’ trollin’ trollin’.
Nobody cares about your blithering, matriarchy. Nobody thinks you’re on the level. Fuck off.
http://www.endlessvideo.com/watch?v=gFmGNqji4u0&start=0m10s&end=0m12s
[meta]
Well, I see the pimple is oozing pus.
aww, it’s trying to insult me by projecting!
Really though, it’s sad that you can’t tell the difference between a man and an asshole, and thus can’t tell the difference between hating assholes and hating men.
Also, as I’ve said multiple times, Rutee, I recognize my privilege. I’m straight, cis, and white. I’ve been middle class for most of my life. I own that. I’m not ashamed of it, but I recognize that I’m lucky.
Least I’m not the middle-class US citizen who said, completely unironically, “I have relatively little privilege”.
I’m no longer “able-bodied” but I once was, so can I listen with only one ear?
or only half my wits?
That’s super.
Now try peering into your own soul, and examine the cogs of that machine. It seems you’ve filed a few teeth off of some of the gears.
That’s what is causing that loud grinding noise when you post; your clutchless shifts are really tearing things up in there.
Anyone else tired of the matriarchy show? *raises hand*
lol
I can tell by your passionate engagement in discussions relating to Critical Race Theory, LGBT rights, the OWS movement, etc.
wait, no, mostly you’re just trolling feminism. standard deflection tactic.
Yawn. The megaplex called, they want their projectors back.
fuck. now matriarchy made me miss the Occupy F/M meeting. serves me right for paying that much attention to the miserable little twerp :-(
Um, ok, I consider myself something of an amateur psychologist. I’ve read some of William Shakespeare’s classics, and the characters’ motivations provide a blueprint for human behavior according to Wikipedia. So, yeah, maybe you should respect my expertise.
You could probably get a few bucks if you pawned it.
Aww jadehawk :( If it’s any consolation, I also have more important and interesting things to do than deal with the troll that I’m not doing…
I get that you’re trying to be funny. Unfortunately you’re just being tiresome and obnoxious. Please fuck off, and don’t come back.
+1 internets
Oh come now, I must insist you try harder than that. That’s just downright pathetic, even for your lame-ass skills.
Hey, if you assholes want to go away, that would be awesome. I could have the thread to myself. Christ.
matriarchy #185
How do you feel about Oprah?
Hehehehehe :D
Was there some part of “fuck off” that you missed?
All right. I’m going. I’ve made that thread less hateful; I’m less angry.
Cassandra, you’re not the boss of me, asshole.
Dogdamnit! Not even one of those cheap IKEA coffee tables? I really need a new snake tank stand.
Holy shit guys, matriarchy has read some Shakespeare. Since none of us have ever read Shakespeare *dramatic finger waving*, we should totes respect his expertise.
*snicker*
Btw, matriarchy, if you’re taking Titus Andronicus as a primer on the experience of rape victims and their families, just get the fuck away from other humans.
Insofar as you’ve served as a sad and pathetic amusement to the rest of us, I suppose you can say that’s true.
[meta]
matriarchy:
You imagine your trolling is in any way noteworthy? Heh.
(Dime-a-dozen are such as you, who offer stupidities so that they pathetically feel validated when responses occur, derisory as they inevitably are)
I’m going to feel really bad if it turns out all this time we’ve been gnawing on an eight-year-old :(
i don’t think leaving, and thus restoring a thread to its original level of non-hatefulness that was present before you showed up counts as “making” it less hateful.
anyway, where was I:
oh yeah, dudes and privilege. this one is also fitting, especially in light of matriarchy telling people they have no right to say they have “relatively little privilege” if they’re in the US: http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lg4r80yDhC1qg768eo1_400.jpg
I thought there was something familiar about him.
FYI, I’m 19.
why oh why must so many under-25-year-olds who open their mouth on social issues be so fucking clueless? If it weren’t for Walton, I’d officially give up on that demographic and campaign to raise the voting age to 25
also, get off my lawn.
Then it really is too bad you choose to express yourself like a spoiled, recalcitrant child.
oh, hey, it’s a Disingenuous liberal meme just for TAA:
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_leuhldRV3e1qg768eo1_500.jpg
Hah, honestly, I’d consider myself pretty progressive on social issues.
Butbutbut
Well okay, it’s just one more year.
and one for matriarchy:
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_leopb5fpL91qg768eo1_500.jpg
oh fine, you and walton.
actually, there are a number of under-25-year-old pharyngulites who are the reason why I don’t completely succumb to that ageism; it’s just that Walton is the only one whose age I actually remember :-p
Matriarchy, the fact that you still consider your opinions worth sharing means nobody ought to give a fuck what else you think about yourself.
Hey, remember when you were fucking off? Go back to that, it was fun.
HAHAHA, Cassandra is 24? Lol, keep swearing, kiddo.
“And if anybody tells me differently, it just washes off my back.”
Whatever was I thinking? Twenty-four-year-olds are much too young to swear!
I am trolling you guys a little bit. Kinda. Not completely. The thing is, I know I’m smarter than most of you. I don’t need your validation; I judge some of the defensive, hysterical (oops) rhetoric, some of the hilariously pervasive swearing, and find it all wanting. You guys are not as intelligent as you think you are.
[I’m banning you a little bit. Kinda. Completely. The thing is, I know you’re not as smart as you think you are, and you’ve contributed nothing positive to any discussion anywhere. So bye! –pzm]
A koan: what is the sound of one commenter fapping?
Respect my amateur authority!
I see everyone is poking the latest clueless troll with a stick. And I see that this one cannot make use of satire and insult even though he seems pleased by his attempt.
lol
are you ever going to stop projecting?
also, weren’t you leaving?
incidentally, that’s a banning offense.
Yep! You’re not at all an immature numskull who has nothing to offer any conversation. The problem is you’re just smarter than everybody. And for that reason, so alone. So very alone. Nobody understands you and your very special white middle-class 19-year-old boy pain.
Just trust him on this. Because he has not given any proof that this is true.
Don’t worry, janine, he has already let all us lesser lights know that he doesn’t need to substantiate anything.
It’s a good thing, then, that you’re not required to substantiate anything you say.
Otherwise, you’d have to say something smart now.
Matriarchy, meet the Banhammer. Bannhammer, meet matriarchy. Splat!
well, considering matriarchy’s definition of “smart” seems to be “too wrapped up in stereotypical attempts at looking ‘grown up’ to realize that adults can swear and even watch kids cartoons”…
How many digits in his IQ?
goddammit!
And there was much rejoicing.
(Yaaaay)
first datasolution, now matriarchy. what a wonderful weekend :-)
So, now that the specimen has been bottled, time for a recap.
The Banhammer rejected Matriarchy. Sadly, the Banhammer does not want to talk about it.
I will respect her wishes.
Bannhammer.
I just noticed that PZ’s comment numbers are the same colour as his comments.
(not the bright red of bannhammer comments, the bloodclot colour of his regular comments)
Reality Enforcer is a totally awesome teenaged skeptic with a razor-sharp wit.
Damn, got here late. Didn’t expect the thread to suddenly take off.
I wanted to play too …
He said:
I wanted to respond, and it seems he already knew this, that there are women around here that have lived their lives as men and know perfectly well what privileges exist on that side of the gender-gap. I’m very curious as to what this “men’s oppression” is. Only thing I can think of that I’ve experienced, being non-cis and all, is the pressure to be masculine. There is a lot of misogyny and anti-femininity behind that pressure. Guess who that affects the most? Clue: It’s not the guys.
matriarchy once made a comment saying that he thought the “Go Red for Women” campaign was anti-male sexism because it focused on highlighting women’s heart disease, while there wasn’t anything that focused on men’s heart disease.
in that same thread, he also said that male-on-male violence means that men are more gender-oppressed than women.
Ah, that bad. Well, I guess he doesn’t support breast cancer research either then?
An appropriate quote just popped up on my Twitter feed:
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
With that, I go to bed. Good night :)
I broke down laughing at this. Tears. Lost my shit.
The ban hammer didn’t come soon enough, but damn was it authoritative when it did.
[OT]
Woo_Monster,
Heh.
In a reality where deities exist and smiting is real, their presence ain’t a matter of faith, and atheists really are fools.
dam! professor you are a very patient M___R F__R. I wish I could take classes from you!
I would probably learn more.
I thought he was only saying the same thing many different ways being “clever” and all the same thing he finally spelled out clearly.
“I’m too smart for you dummies (and I’m high)”
uncle frogy
Where did I say it was exclusionary, or anything of the sort?
My frustration with the label is merely that it is easily misunderstood based on a straightforward reading and standard English etymology.
Hm. I don’t think it’s any more easily misunderstood than “black power” is misunderstood.
Well, you seem to be starting from a premise that feminism should only mean equalism, and therefore it’s misleading to the extent that anyone understands it differently. But that’s just begging the question.
There have been persuasive arguments advanced that women should not consciously concern themselves with achieving equality, since this can too easily lead to second-guessing themselves. Rather, they should concern themselves with power per se, and we can assume similar realpolitik on the part of men will result in some stable equilibrium in that far, far future when a real matriarchy might be imaginable.
Maybe you didn’t suggest anything about “exclusionary” but you did proclaim that feminists who don’t share your view of equality are not real feminists.
That’s really not a tenable position for a man to hold. Honestly you can only go so far as to declare which feminists you agree with and which you don’t. But men are not in the position of defining what feminism is.
Misogyny: The Sites, was posted on Digg and I noticed it was added with”— manboobz is the source for this? seriously? manboobz?”.
I had previously gone to manboobz by way of Ophelia Benson’s site, which mentioned his posting a screen capture from the Men’s Rights subreddit with his comments.
His post gave a glimpse into the sewer-mind typical of MRAs but I was happy to discover the manboobz site, so I immediately smelled a rat from the sub added to the Digg submission.
The submittor was one kire8181, and it had only one comment, also by him, which said: “Nothing is made a hate group by being labeled so.”
Yeah, because that’s all it is. Unfairly labelling them a hate group, despite all the evidence to the contrary. /s
A look at all his Digg submissions showed a pattern you’d expect from an MRA.
I just checked back and the last submission he made was an article in the UK’s Telegraph: “Research finds women feel happy when their husband or partner is upset.”
While that article talked about women interpreting their male partner’s upset as a sign of the degree of: “the man’s investment and emotional engagement in the relationship, even during difficult times.”, I’m pretty sure that’s not what this guy takes away from it.
Just below it was his submission of a post by some Chuck Rudd at a site called goodmenproject.com, titled: “The Southern Poverty Law Center’s Creepy Mission.
Are mens’ rights websites dangerous hate groups? Chuck Rudd calls the Southern Poverty Law Center out for mission creep.”
It made me laugh because I thought all you’d have to do is capitalise that ‘mission creep’ in the subtitle and Mission Creep works very well as a descriptive code name for what the SPLC is doing by turning its attention to this whole mysogynistic enterprise.
ॐ,
Are you persuaded?
Ever since Watsongate and the fact that a guy was shamed for at worst, an awkward advance, I find I don’t give a shit about Feminism vs. the MRM/MRA or whatever they call themselves.
All I see is two interest groups carrying on like a bunch of clowns.
Equality isn’t a product, you don’t need a vendor to be conscious of equality.
I support women’s rights, men’s rights, children’s rights, minority’s rights, gay rights, trans’ rights… And I don’t need a label to do it either!
I don’t know, John. I can imagine either approach being more effective, but I don’t have enough data to know one way or the other. All I know at this point is that patriarchy is remarkably resilient.
You consider “guys, don’t do that” to be shaming?
You’re either incredibly thin-skinned or you’re weighing in on an argument you know nothing about.
And of course, the poor “guy’s” “shame” is what troubles you.
I find I don’t give a shit about your opinion.
I bet aaronjensen has absolutely no privilege either, and made his fortune all by himself with no help from others, nosiree.
aaronjenson,
You must have heard wrong. It was worse than that. “[I]n an elevator in Dublin at 4AM I was invited back to the hotel room of a man I had never spoken to before and who was present to hear me say that I was exhausted and wanted to go to bed.”
See, it wasn’t just an awkward advance. He disregarded her expressed wishes, in order to proposition her away from the safety of a larger group. There’s two things wrong with that. First, he disregarded her expressed wishes; that is unkind. Second, in addition to that unkindness, he followed her away from the crowd; that action shows no regard for her feelings of safety.
You don’t know that he was shamed — unless you are that guy or have been in direct contact with him — for all you know, he might have seen the response and thought “hey, these are good points; I’m going to give more consideration to women’s expressed wishes and feelings of safety in the future.”
This is unlikely to be true. It is more likely that you were anti-feminist long before that.
In effect you are claiming that you would always have known exactly how to combat all forms of institutional racism, no matter what time period or culture you were born into, and you would never have needed to listen to the lived experiences of any people of color in order to identify even the most subtle forms of discrimination.
You are claiming omniscience. Well, perhaps you are the LORD, but the rest of us sometimes do need some assistance from others’ analyses.
Welcome to the internet. Where we all have opinions that no one gives a shit about.
Wrong again. I give a shit about the opinions of some of the people are here. You are not one of them.
Also, if no one gives a shit, why did you bother to be yet an other dudez that just has to whine about Rebecca Watson?
This is the issue I have. What side you’re on doesn’t matter. I get her side, I get the Dawkins “grow up, you’re upset from a mere enquiry” side. What annoyed me about this issue is how insignificant the issue itself is.
Women’s safety doesn’t even enter into the equation here. He asked a question, was declined and went about his business as did she. She felt a bit pissed off he wasn’t listening earlier and others feel she was being a bit delicate. It’s really the biggest non-issue of this century, but some people carried on like it was the biggest affront to women’s rights this century.
That’s right, I don’t know. Just like you don’t know whether those guys who shouted out “slut” to a girl in a miniskirt didn’t force her to re-evaluate her life of giving out sexual favours to get free drinks…….
In effect you are claiming that no knowledge can exist if it did not originate from omniscience. Since we do have knowledge without an omniscience source, it seems that I can know sexism and misogyny without having to brand myself as a feminist.
I can put words in your mouth too.
Do you honestly believe that you cannot be against sexism, misogyny or even racism without being a feminist?
It’s pretty clear that you don’t. If you’re interested in learning why, start here.
Oh for fucks sake.
There is no defense for slut-shaming and gendered insults. Ever.
Women do not have to “give” you sex if you buy them drinks. Women who want to hook up will do so, and have the right to without this judgmental objectifying bullshit. Seriously.
There is no reason to think a woman who wants to wear a mini-skirt is a “slut”.
You know what? Fuck it. There is just so much wrong in that one little portion of your bullshit. You will not get it. I’m not wasting my time.
Go jump in a pot of acid, make the world a better place.
It is male privilege that allows you to so blithely declare the issue insignificant.
Of course it does. He followed her away from the group. That is a red flag for danger. Bad things happen more often when one is followed than when one is approached while in a group. A person concerned for others’ feelings of safety does not follow other people.
No, these people responded to people like you who refuse to admit that there’s anything troublesome about following people and disregarding their autonomy. If people like you had all said “he should have respected her expressed intentions, and he shouldn’t have followed her”, there would be no dispute. You are part of the problem.
I don’t know what you’re talking about, and I don’t have any reason to believe that you are reporting anything accurately, but if we were to take your claims at face value for the sake of argument:
there is nothing wrong with giving out sexual favours to get free drinks, if that is the choice a person wants to make, and therefore nobody should be trying to make anyone reevaluate that choice.
Obviously you misunderstood me. You claimed that “you don’t need a vendor to be conscious of equality”, which is to say that you can figure out everything you need to know about racism without listening to a person of color.
Racism was an example of something else you might be less inclined to dismiss. All the evidence is that you can’t be against sexism or misogyny without being a feminist. Feminism is the only set of analytical tools which demonstrably works to address sexism. I have to go with what the evidence indicates.
Dumbass. If you are against sexism, misogyny, treating women like people and making them equal in society then you are a feminist.
You are not a feminist. You do not see slut shaming as bad, which is a part of sexism and misogyny. You defend that shit. You are a part of the problem.
There are feminists who refuse to call themselves feminist. You are not one of them.
aaronjenson:
Such a poor liar you are, when your actions so obviously belie your words.
The very first mention of Watson and the incident you label a “non-issue” on this thread was your first comment @245, and now you’re trying to make it the topic of this thread.
In short, it was a non-issue until you introduced it.
(Specimen, you are)
aaronjenson, why don’t you just go with the “I’m not bigoted against women because I happen to have a female friend”-defence?
It’s so much easier, and a classic. Instead you go and dig this deep hole for yourself with your convoluted and contradictory reasoning. You’re pulling a Dawkins. Trying to erase the lived experience of so many women by projecting your own privilege.
Yes, I know the scenario I listed was disgusting slut-shaming. No, It’s not okay to call a girl a slut if she; takes drinks for sex, wears a miniskirt, votes democrat, sleeps around…
Re-read what I wrote in context.
It was claimed that only the recipient can know if they were shamed. I showed an example which clearly showed that anybody can know when shaming occurs; based on the numerous responses of people who didn’t read what I wrote properly, it’s obvious that people can easily identify shaming when they see it.
As to the other clowns citing her fear of being followed alone by the potential rapist. Here are the wisest words ever spoken during this entire issue:
“The man in the elevator didn’t physically touch her, didn’t attempt to bar her way out of the elevator, didn’t even use foul language at her. He spoke some words to her. Just words.”
Some people are just too thin-skinned, too delicate and need a big dose of toughen-the-fuck-up.
zblockquote>As to the other clowns citing her fear of being followed alone by the potential rapist. Here are the wisest words ever spoken during this entire issue
This clearly show that you do not understand this issue. You have no idea what feels threatening to Rebecca or other women, and seem blissfully unaware of why such actions can be threatening. That is exactly why I said you are projecting your male privilege.
Yay, blockquote fail … You’ll figure it out …
Why fuckwits like AJ Think we are at all interested in their repetative drivel after a few thousand posts on the subject, is beyond the ken of rational people. They area definitely irrational and delusional fools, to think we would change our minds without new EVIDENCE, and their inane and oblivious opinions are not evidence.
Killfile engage.
Fuck you, aaronjensen. You don’t know the first thing about what it means to feel threatened, obviously.
Sticks and stones might break my bones but words can never hurt me? Really? You clueless fuckwit.
No touching needs to take place for a situation to be intimidating. The possibility of bodily harm is what makes us fearful. The violation of our privacy is what makes us fearful. Being cut off from escape possibilities makes us fearful.
One night I’ve had a man follow me into the hallway of the house I lived in. The corridor is well lit and I lived next to the main train station at this time, so even around 11:30 pm, there were a lot of people out. Also, two appartments are at the ground floor.
A lot of students lived in this house, so I thought nothing of it when a younger man knocked at the glass door. I’ve often held the door open for neighbors or their visitors and in a house full of young people, 11:30 pm is an ordinary time for visitors. I opened it for him and went back to my mailbox to check it (hadn’t been home since early in the morning).
He started talking to me. He said he’d seen me and thought I was cute and if I wanted to go out for a drink with him.
I froze.
He was groomed, quite cute and not really a threatening appearance. In fact, if he’d approached me in a bar I’d probably been quite happy to give him my number had I been single (I wasn’t at the time).
But the fact that he would follow me, a single girl who didn’t know him, into my house in the middle of the fucking night was terrifying. I backed up to the wall to cover my back, felt my heart race and told him I wouldn’t, as I had a boyfriend and he would soon be here to meet me. In my head I sorted my options. He was between me and the door, but outside I’d have a lot of people to help me. I could ring the doorbells of the two appartments but couldn’t be sure anybody was there. I probably wouldn’t be able to get to the first floor with three more appartments if he didn’t take my no for a no.
While we had a glass front door and bright lightning where the mailboxes are, there were several dark corners in the hallway and a door to our inner courtyard.
I stiffened up, adrenaline rushing, preparing to fight.
I guess he noticed my fear, as he apologized and left. I don’t remember what he said as I was focused on fight or flight.
My boyfriend got to me a short time later, but I didn’t sleep well afterwards and I can still feel the raw fear I experienced that night.
So fuck you. With a decaying porcupine.
“Guys, don’t do that.” Is a big deal.
“Guys, when a woman says listen to her please do.” Is a big deal.
“Guys, women are people too.” Is a big deal.
“Guys, empathising with someone who has different experiences to you is a good thing.” Is a big deal.
“Guys, realising that your desires do not necessarily grant you access to someone’s person.” Is a big deal.
I could go on.
All these things are BIG DEALS. Right?
Oh wait. No they’re not, they’re basic courtesies that ANY person of any sex has a right to expect. Listening doesn’t equate to agreement, “don’t do that” doesn’t equate to “don’t chat people up ever”, “women are people too” doesn’t equate to “men are not people”, empathising with someone doesn’t imply you agree with or excuse their every whim and folly, merely that you grant that perhaps your experiences are not binding on them…
…I could go on.
I am a man. I have man fee-fees. They are important man fee-fees. BUT my oh so important man fee-fees are less important than the autonomy of someone, anyone, else. So perhaps is we men that have to suck it up and grow thicker skins if reasonable requests for basic courtesy and consideration hurt our poor, precious man fee-fees so very, very much.
Louis
Ah. Well, no, that wasn’t claimed categorically. I was referring to this instance, in which someone said “guys, don’t do that.”
Your example of calling someone a slut is unambiguous shaming, yes. But I saw nothing like that directed at Elevator Guy. So I can only conclude that he might have felt shamed, or he might not; I have no evidence of unambiguous shaming directed toward him.
Elevator Guy has been treated quite neutrally. It’s people like you, who assert that he did absolutely nothing wrong, who’ve been treated like the idiots you are. Many of us hope that Elevator Guy has learned the wisdom that escapes you, and he is generally wished well.
This is misogyny,
but it’s still telling that you don’t want to claim that following someone away from the group signals exactly as much safety as approaching that same person while they’re with the group.
It’s like you do understand at some level that such behavior is morally wrong, and signals danger; but you’d rather that more women should experience more fear, rather than privileged men should alter their behavior to reduce the amount of stress and fear in the world.
That’s strange, though, because there’s no sensible system of ethics which asserts that more fear in the world is preferable to less fear.
I can only conclude that your disdain for women is leading you to espouse beliefs which you would recognize as morally wrong if they applied between two groups which you consider neutrally.
(If the Floxians were acutely aware of recent systemic violence committed against them by the Rohillish people, you would likely not regard it as a good thing for Rohillish to deliberately follow Floxians around.)
Yes, cupcake, that’s because you don’t have a lifetime’s worth of experiences where you were taught to be wary of those situations, best avoid such situations, pay attention to such situations because it’s your fucking responsibility to avoid being raped
You know, most rapists start out pretty “nice”. Fact is that you have no fucking clue how they’re going to take a “no”.
The fact that women have to pay attention to that and calculate their risks and options within seconds of such a cold proposition is completely lost on you.
Oh, wait it’s just because bitches ain’t shit, I guess.
It speaks volumes that you personally seem to think that a simple request not to come off as a creepy jerk is the worst thing that happened in the world last year.
AaronJenson: Why the fuck should your opinion be valued here, when your initial comment of only eight lines is a perfect onion of lies, distortions, and cluelessness? And you follow it up with, among other things,
slut shaming and victim blaming? And then double down in #259?
And if he’d actually raped her, you’d be the first person to blame her for being alone in an elevator at 4 a.m. In a hotel where she had paid for a room.
Could someone please check the Pharyngula powder room? Because it seems like a toilet has backed up and the solids are getting in.
Oh for literal fuck’s sake. matri-“I don’t think I need to substantiate anything”-archy is only 19? And at that age he already complains about not getting laid?
And already complains about swearing?
Nobody is useless. Some people at least provide comic relief.
Neo? Is that you?
Some extra background for comment #243 by urmensch (part 1 of 2):
Chuck Rudd, who was mentioned as having written an article on the SPLC for the Good Men Project, also runs the Manosphere website known as “Gucci Little Piggy”, which was recently featured on ManBoobz in the following article:
Gucci Little Piggy: Sandra Fluke is a lesbian pirate because one of her fingers is longer than the other (ManBoobz)
The ManBoobz article gives something of an indication of the style of Rudd’s argumentation, without soiling your browser.
Why is this article worth mentioning? Well, it was noticed by Jen over at Blag Hag, and then was subsequently debunked by PZ himself right here on Pharyngula, because the argument that finger ratios are an indicator for homosexuality is, not to put too fine a point on it, unscientific bullshit:
Digit length ratios and overinterpreting the data (Pharyngula)
Some extra background for comment #243 by urmensch (part 2 of 2):
As for this part of the comment:
This is sheer conspiracy theory paranoia from the MRM. Since the article describing Manosphere hate sites on the SPLC report was published without a by-line, various MRAs were wanting to obtain the name of the author(s) who had compiled the information, and because ManBoobz ran with the SPLC report fairly early on, some of them jumped immediately to the conclusion that that article had been supplied by ManBoobz (since it was directly cited as “a humorous pro-feminist blog … that keeps a close eye on these and many other woman-hating sites”).
On the Men’s Rights sub-reddit (r/mensrights), one of ManBoobz’s regular trolls (Magdelyn, aka Ma99ie) had the gumption to e-mail the SPLC directly on this point, and received a direct answer. Asking questions of the right people is an obvious corrective to hatching tinfoil hat conspiracy theories! The comment posted by Ma99ie:
TIL: Southern Poverty Law Center thinks R/mensrights is a burgeoning hate group. (Reddit)
I won’t quote the entire comment, but here is the answer given by Mark Potok, author of one of the SPLC articles:
“Magdelyn,
The story was edited by me. It was written by a free-lancer at our instruction. I’d be happy to try to answer any questions.
Mark Potok
Editor, Intelligence Report/Hatewatch blog SPLC”