The Hobby Lobby craft store apparently flogs Christianity fairly heavily during the Easter season — not just because it’s a crafty time of year, but because by their own admission, they are using the stores to proselytize. A customer named Sarah complained that it was “exclusive and insensitive”. She got the run-around by some utterly oblivious service representative, who among many other things, said Since we know that Christ is the only way to heaven; it would truly be insensitive for us not to share Christ with the world.
Of course, they have the right to do that…just as godless consumers of craft products should now be looking around for an alternative source. But first, we get to slam a poll!
Whose side are you on in this situation?
Hobby Lobby 44%
Sarah 34%
John Locke 22%
The John Locke answer is going to split the vote, I’m afraid.
John Locke??
“The John Locke answer is going to split the vote, I’m afraid.”
Not really. He’s just another woo-meister faith-head.
Since we’re prejudiced, it would be insensitive of us not to act prejudiced.
Love the logic.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Not that I shop at Hobby Lobby much (there isn’t one near me), but they lost my business. All that response needed was a condescending, “I feel sorry for you.”
*sigh* The one good art supply store in Bismarck closed years ago; the only place to get basic supplies is Hobby Lobby. I quit patronising them after my second visit. I noticed they carried the full line of xtian candies, testamints and all that crap.
Then, not long ago, I read about them funding a Bible Museum.
No moose option on this one?
:(
nuts, they’re the only decent crafts store in town. i guess i must take my business to the internet; again.
Don’t go with Locke. He was a step in the right direction, but he still held on to that old “can’t be good without religion” canard.
Voted.
I am going to have to find a place to buy the same style gallery frames I use for my work. Damned Hobby Lobby!
Let me use an analogy. Imagine that I haven’t taken my meds for two weeks and hallucinate that I see a bear racing towards the woman next to me. I blindside the woman and knock her down without any warning, giving her scrapes and bruises because I’m just so gosh-darned eager to save her from my imaginary danger. Now imagine that I do that to every person who walks through the door of the store that I own. Do I now expect the woman to thank me? Do I expect her to continue shopping at my store?
According to my wikiknowledge of Locke:
Three arguments are central: (1) Earthly judges, the state in particular, and human beings generally, cannot dependably evaluate the truth-claims of competing religious standpoints; (2) Even if they could, enforcing a single “true religion” would not have the desired effect, because belief cannot be compelled by violence; (3) Coercing religious uniformity would lead to more social disorder than allowing diversity
Doesn’t seem to include the option of an atheistic world view, so John is irrelevant.
John Locke is the smoke monster now, or the devil or some such weirdness. I wouldn’t trust him. Just look at the guy, all creepy and pretending to be sympathetic to everybody. Anyway, since when is there a craft store on the island, and who the hell is this “Sarah”…?
what’s that? We weren’t talking about Lost? Never mind, then.
PZ, I’m guessing you’ve been alerted of this but:
http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2010/04/pz-myers-is-witless-wanker-who-peddles.html
Sarah gets my pointless vote. I admire people who go out of their way to break peoples’ little insular bubbles by complaining, when it’s much easier to shrug, roll your eyes, walk away and do nothing.
Frankly, I have a hard time with this one. A Christian store explains that they believe Christ is the only way to salvation, and the non-christian complains that this is “judgmental and close-minded.”
What was the alternative she wanted to hear? “All religions are the same?” “There is no right or wrong; you have chosen the path for you?” She wants Unitarians?
I think this bothers me because I suspect the major complaint is that someone is saying that someone else’s religious beliefs are wrong. You can’t do that. You can’t say anyone is wrong. They are only “different.” Religion is a sacred space, unlike any other, where criticism, real or implied, is not allowed.
And the same people who consider Christians who proclaim Christ as the only way to salvation to be bigots make the same charge against atheists. We say they’re wrong about God, and we say it in public. We try to change minds. Don’t we know that people have a RIGHT to their BELIEFS?!
I do think that the belief in exclusive salvation is narrow, bigoted, and irrational. But I don’t get my undies in a bunch and clutch my pearls over the idea that someone is trying to change my mind and persuade me to adopt their narrow, bigoted religion. That part doesn’t bother me. I use the same general criteria I use for politics. I can despise a political party or viewpoint, but the fact that someone is handing out pamphlets or putting posters up in their store doesn’t make me froth at the mouth over the rudeness of someone trying to suggest that all political views aren’t equally okay.
I don’t know; perhaps I’m wrong on this. But I do try to avoid shopping at Hobby Lobby, because I don’t want to fund their creepy little religion.
I’m on the Hobby Lobby’s side. Not because what I think they’re saying is true, but because it’s their turf and they can do whatever the heck they want.
I strongly suggest everyone who doesn’t believe their bland shit stops going there though. Yeeesh… I know I wouldn’t.
I’ve encountered the smarmy Hobby Lobby attitude before and I think poorly of the store for it. In fact, I thought poorly of the store prior, because the stores seem to have an atmosphere of despair about them. Slightly dingy with apathetic employees.
My impression is that most organizations that push religion don’t pay enough attention to doing a good job in their core business, so I avoid them whenever possible.
Sastra, I don’t have a problem with Hobby Lobby’s owner[s] doing the evangelical thing. What bothers me is that when they moved into Bismarck (ND), the one remaining craft/art supply store couldn’t compete, so they closed. Outside of Hobby Lobby is Mathieson’s, which is tiny and has next to nothing and is not a place I can get needed art supplies.
So, that leaves Hobby Lobby, with their obnoxious proselytizing. As I noted upthread, I quit patronising them when I realized what was going on, but that constitutes a major pain in the ass for me, as when I do find myself in need of, oh say, a tube of paint, I have to order it online and wait.
Jadehawk is in the same situation in Minot (ND). Hobby Lobby is like Walmart in that they have a negative effect on smaller stores who cannot compete.
Hobby Lobby doesn’t even open on Sunday. What year do they think it is?
Hobby Lobby is perfectly within their rights. I wish there was a “Hobby Lobby, but they’ll never see a penny from me” option.
Of course, around here people shop at Michaels for crafts. I’ve never seen a Hobby Lobby.
Hobby Lobby… yuck! yeeeeesh! blech!
Wal-Mart, K-Mart, TruValu, Barnes & Nobel, Amazon, SuperStore, Target, MAC, etc.,
blech! blech! blech!
Okay, I’ll sit in my corner of the world, walking to where I can see people, and talk with them, and if they have something I really need and I can trade something, then I will trade, aka buy.
I have several crafter/artist friends who patronised Hobby Lobby without realizing exactly how evangelical they were. It surprised me. Then they found out where Hobby Lobby’s profits go and the kinds of things they support, and my friends no longer shop there. (Most of them were put off by the Christian crap before, but it was the only/closest place in town.)
Hobby Lobby have a really bad track record with discrimination against employees, too. I heard that in many of their stores, you can’t work there unless you go to Bible camps or studies as part of team-building exercises, like the way Chik-Fil-A does sometimes.
Anyway, now that there’s the Internet with online shopping for craft/art supplies, it’s easier to not use Hobby Lobby if they’re the only shop nearby. Sucks to have to decide on things like new brushes or paints or whatever without handling them first, though.
and since we’re on the subject… does anyone know of a material for beads that’s black and heavy, but not hematite? the selection for hematite beads is always rather limited, so I’m thinking I might need to find an alternative
This is why the Lord wants us to patronize the LYS (local yarn store) instead of the big box ones. I’ve been knitting since WAY before it got fashionable, and I’ve always been sort of mortified at the stuff for sale in the Hobby Lobby type stores. Like if any intelligent people saw me walking out they’d make some assumptions about my mental health and/or taste.
unreliablenarrator:
Does it ever. I really prefer to shop in person for my supplies, but I have no option except the ‘net.
I’m actually related to the owner in a long sort of way. They use a Hummer to drive around on their property instead of a 4 wheeler. The house is beyond what I can imagine as a house. Anyway, I don’t see the value in being closed on Sunday. Do they really think magic man will be happier with them for this policy?
On another note, I am working on buying a 2010 vehicle. I told my dealer that I would agree to the terms if I could buy the vehicle on Sunday. He did not like that very much.
Fortunately there are no Hobby Lobby stores around here (at least that I know of), so patronizing them is not an issue for me.
Just go into the store, shop, decide what brand/model you want, and go home to order it off the ‘net >:)
No problem – got to Hobby Lobby, feel their brushes, fondle their yarns, test-drive their pens. Then go online and order from your favorite secular retailer. And tell the store manager why you’re leaving. Or go to an artist or needlecraft social networking site, like ravelry, and get advice from other people.
Then the atheist knitters can make PZ socks with the big atheist A on them for future episodes of standing on one’s favorite religious tome, whether the epic of Gilgamesh, the Bible, or The Ancestor’s Tale.
Had to go with Locke for this one. Hobby Lobby have the right to be wrong. And they are being logically consistent with their Christianity. If the consequence of non-belief is everlasting torment, then they are quite right to do everything they can to save others.
For those who had difficulty understanding the position of “Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc”, I have reproduced their letter below, with subtext added by me for clarity.
Ha, I’d never thought of going in and checking out the materials and then buying them elsewhere. The whole store gives me the creeps (all the fake plants and straw stuff), and I have a perfectly serviceable and wonderful dedicated art store nearby (plus I work at an art museum), so I’ve never had to think about it, except when my friends complain after deciding they can’t go to Hobby Lobby anymore.
I’m making a note, though, for the next time I get complaints.
Just because they have the right to proselytize does not mean that their business practice is really really really stupid, and good for Sarah for calling them on their nonsense.
I used to work for Hobby Lobby as a cashier; I had the job for about two and a half years. I loved working there, but only because my boss was a really awesome guy and really understood his employees. However, I intensely dislike the store policies (a lot of our staff did; for some reason only the DMs and RMs and the Owners seemed to think they were a good idea), particularly those regarding religion. I got a holiday bonus the first November I’d worked there, (of $20; but I wasn’t expecting one with a $7.5/hr job so I guess I wasn’t complaining) but it came with a pamphlet expressing the owner’s gratitudes along with his wishes that I find true salvation in Jesus Christ this holiday season. The bonus itself was almost offensive to me at that point.
It was somewhat frustrating working at a company like Hobby Lobby as an atheist given that some customers seemed to have this opinion of us based on the moral beliefs of the owners (“I thought this was supposed to be a Christian store”). I grew to hate Christmas and everything it stood for by around July every year when the hundreds of Christmas trees would come in heavy boxes, while displaying no regard for the wintertime celebrations of other religions. I understand that the owners are completely within their rights as a private company to express whatever policies or goals they wish, regardless of how nonsensical, but after dealing with so many right-wing evangelical customers who held those expectations (we sold a wall decoration with the Sarah Palin hockey mom pit bull quote on it; I was disgusted), seeing how little the average employee mattered to the owners (though the same is true of any retail), listening to hours and hours of that goddamn gospel muzak on the store speakers, and my boss quitting (he could only put up with so much), I eventually left the job for a better one.
I haven’t shopped there since.
Jadehawk, OM | April 15, 2010 7:34 PM:
I am told the Large Hadron Collider produces the ultimate in black and heavy material, though I am advised one should inquire discretely.
Hobby Lobby was the first major store I ever encountered that closes its doors on Sundays because of their Über-Christianinanity. Yeah, I did feel like Sarah when I found out in the store and never went back because of it. So I say, fuck Hobby Lobby.
ambook:
Not remotely practical for me. I live an hour and a half’s drive from Hobby Lobby. I’m not making that trip unless I’m purchasing stuff.
Just a heads up Hobby Lobby corporation also owns Mardel Christian and “Education” bookstores and Hemispheres (Home Furnishings). Mainly any company in this day and age that is closed on Sundays…ummm yeah…don’t shop there!
something tells me I’m not going to be able to sew any of that stuff to my hat…
Bleah, I hope these guys never expand north of the border, say by talking over Michael’s or something.
Normally, I would not avoid shopping somewhere just because of the owners’ religion (or politics), same as I would not refuse to hire an employee on that basis. To me it’s an ethical issue (and in the latter case, a legal one as well). However, if a business starts making their religion part of the brand image — when they are the ones who drag that issue in to the transaction — then I think the ethics start to point in the other direction. Obviously, part of the intent is to appeal to their co-religionists. It follows that I’m free to take it as a turn-off, and not feel petty or superficial about it.
I could never figure out why a store would be closed on Sundays, and never thought it would be for religious reasons, as it’s not like the store name gives any hints, as they know it would be offensive to some potential customers.
There is a Hobby Lobby in Springfield, Missouri, with a Mardel Christian Supplies store attached to it–different entrances, but one building, and the only building on the lot.
I went into Hobby Lobby with my daughter so she could show me what she wanted for her birthday. We had to wade through aisles of tacky decorative crap to get back to the art supplies in the back aisles–model airplanes, science projects and art are all in the very back.
The store was hiring, so I investigated. Yeah, they are ‘way Christian. Mardels is their other line. I didn’t apply.
I always got my much needed sleep during philosophy classes – someone remind me what Locke has to do with this.
Hobby Lobby — does not anyone else see?
Hobby Lobby buys from the “third” world. And then try to thrust upon their patrons the respect that they have from said “third” world.
If you cannot grow it, then trade for it; if you cannot raise it, then trade for it; if you cannot recycle it – then why “buy it” in the first place?
I know they are owned by the same company as “Mardel,” which is a “Christan Supply Store” they have homeschooling books, music, etc.
Unfortunately for me, the Michael’s in my town does not sell hardly any yarn. There is no LYS, which leaves Hobby Lobby for buying the cotton yarn I love to knit with.
I can’t use a yarn without feeling it.
Tough one. I actually admire Hobby Lobby for consistency here – as much as the evangelical and missionary types bug the crap out of me, it is an extended act of compassion in their own twisted world view. As far as they are concerned, pushing for Christ like this is much like holding an intervention for a potential alcoholic.
(NB: This doesn’t go for the people who are doing it because they think it improves their own chances at Heaven – that’s a self-centered act)
Also – they don’t go out of their way to hide this. Straight from their website, in their Statement of Purpose:
That said – as a large organisation, I would be concerned about discriminatory practices in hiring and other HR matters. Also, as a customer (if I was in the right market, which I’m not), I would definitely go to another vendor.
LeeLeeOne:
Golly gee, if only I lived by someone who makes 300 lb Cold Press Arches 22″ x 30″. *eyeroll*
Of course they’re closed on Sunday, and evangelise! Here in Springfield, the owners of Hobby Lobby also have a store to sell home-schooling supplies, and are going for the religious home-schooler market.
Jadehawk, you might look at Fire Mountain Gems, here.
Aren’t the people that own Hobby Lobby Mormon? That’s what I’ve heard and it explains both their attitude and being closed on Sunday.
robertdw:
Yeah. As I’ve pointed out, the places where Hobby Lobby usually set up has little competition, and they generally cause the competition to fold. They were quite successful doing that here in ND.
That’s just the beatific joy of knowing one is saved that you’re encountering.
Lol. Shoulda read the whole thread first!
@Jadehawk,
Czech pressed glass beads are available in pure black and a wide range of shapes and sizes, and they’re reasonably heavy. If you really want gemstone beads, have a look around for black agate (although that often has striations and pale markings in it). Some varieties of jasper can also be very dark – mustang jasper is a dark brownish black with splashes of cream and red, a string of mustang beads will have plenty of ones that are entirely dark-coloured.
@Jadehawk,
Czech pressed glass beads are available in pure black and a wide range of shapes and sizes, and they’re reasonably heavy. If you really want gemstone beads, have a look around for black agate (although that often has striations and pale markings in it). Some varieties of jasper can also be very dark – mustang jasper is a dark brownish black with splashes of cream and red, a string of mustang beads will have plenty of ones that are entirely dark-coloured.
49, getinhangon:
I doubt they’re Mormon, most likely the owners are some form of Pentecostal, from the sorts of things the owners are connected to.
@Jadehawk,
Czech pressed glass beads are available in pure black and a wide range of shapes and sizes, and they’re reasonably heavy. If you really want gemstone beads, have a look around for black agate (although that often has striations and pale markings in it). Some varieties of jasper can also be very dark – mustang jasper is a dark brownish black with splashes of cream and red, a string of mustang beads will have plenty of ones that are entirely dark-coloured.
Sorry for the multiple posts. My work computer doesn’t seem to like me posting to blogs!
@#22
I didn’t know Chik-Fil-A was a nutty religious company also. I guess these are all places I don’t go to much because they don’t exist in my area. Is there a list somewhere of major chain stores that fun religious crap so that I could avoid going to them?
Locke believed in tolerance the way Claire believed in being inclusive:
I hope people don’t confuse this business with hobby-lobby.com, an online vendor of radio-controlled models.
“”Golly gee, if only I lived by someone who makes 300 lb Cold Press Arches 22″ x 30″. *eyeroll*””
300 lbs or not….
If you cannot make or grow or whatever yourself, then trade for it.
If you cannot trade for it, then the question remains…. do you really need it?
LeeLeeOne:
Your crayon could use sharpening. I’m an artist. That’s how I make my living. It’s not possible to “trade” for the supplies I require. And yes, I really need it.
58, mxh:
Yeah, Chik-Fil-A is closed on Sundays, too, and they used to put Creationist home school stuff in the kiddy meals. But I’m not aware of anything super blatant towards the public, like Bible verses inscribed on the walls or anything.
But I don’t know of a list of companies, except the series of posts at DailyKos that dogemperor wrote about the Dominionist “parallel economy”. (http://dogemperor.dailykos.com, late 2007 early 2008)
Ah, but Chik-Fil-A might have Bible verses on the walls. I don’t recall any, but I haven’t been inside of one for at least seven years (I stopped eating there entirely 6 years ago, when I realized their food kept making me sick).
Arrrggghhh! I hate Hobby Lobby. There’s one in Rochester, MN. and the few times I’ve shopped there, the staff has been snippy, unhelpful, and gave the impression they’d rather be elsewhere.
I had to return a damaged item once. The manager was so rude: no eye contact, didn’t speak, etc.
Every Christmas and Easter, they run a full page religious ad in the paper. When I see it, I want to write to them asking should Jesus be used to sell your products? None of my friends (religious and atheist) will shop there mainly because of the staff attitude. Luckily, we have a Michael’s plus a local yarn store and a bead store.
Does anyone know if prospective employees at HL are asked about their religious beliefs during the job interview?
For her art, my great-grandmother used the “leftovers” from the candles that had been used for light. Literally, her art included candle leftovers which were recycled beeswax.
My kids and grandparents and great-grandparents reinforced self-reliance.
Again, listen to the following answer. (triple quotation marks).
“””300 lbs or not….
If you cannot make or grow or whatever yourself, then trade for it.
If you cannot trade for it, then the question remains…. do you really need it?”””
Jadehawk, maybe jet or imitation jet?
Good lord, LeeLee, shut the fuck up.
Did you trade some lovely hand-made patchouli scented hemp bracelets for internet access and that shiny computer you’re on?
Fucking annoying hypocrite.
LeeLeeOne, I don’t give a shit what your grandmother did. I’ve been making a good living from my artwork for over 30 years now, and my work is worth more than some crappy ‘trade’.
Once more, yes I need specific supplies. What I don’t need is to have a discussion with an idiot. Why don’t you run off and trade your shiny computer for recycled ear wax or something? The internet doesn’t need you.
Black Jade is a nice black stone.
But if you hunt around online you will find bazillions of different kinds of hematite and other very dark stones.
oh, and btw, Hobby Lobby has a right to do what they want (as long as it is legal) in their store and I have a right to shop elsewhere. Which I do. Dominoes Pizza is another place I don’t give money to.
No, I did not have any hand-made patchouli scented hemp bracelets.
My family lived through what is called the potato famine. We survived.
We ate what we could grow, we made what we could make, and we traded what we could trade. If we could not trade, then we did without.
Leelee, you can ask that question all you want, but you do not get to decide what the answer is for me or for anyone else.
I realize you get some sort of pathetic holier-than-thou rush off of it, but the end result of your spamming is to make me want to go out and buy 6 Hummers I don’t need or even want just to piss you off. If you actually wanted to accomplish anything else you fucked it up.
LeeLeeOne wrote:
I’m fascinated: what do you trade for electricity and internet access?
otrme,
Yes! exactly!
Hobby Lobby has the right to do what they want… this is one of the many reasons my parents applied for and were granted citizenship (including their grand-parents) from the “”good ol’ ire’ of land.””
Sorry if that’s an insider’s sense of humor.
Good for them. A lot of other people survived the potato famine too, you know without being self-righteous dickbags about it.
However, you have not addressed your complete hypocrisy. You traded something you grew for your computer? And what about internet access? Your internet provider takes trades of handmade goods?
This. This and the whole dingy, institutional quality of such places, the abovementioned downtrodden quality of their staff. It’s depressing.
I love real art supplies stores, and the materials in them. There’s this cool little place up the road from me that sells acrylics ‘n oils ‘n watercolors ‘n easels and nice brushes ‘n beautiful papers ‘n charcoal ‘n pastels ‘n coloured pencils and all that, and it’s all good. Honestly, I’ve little excuse to buy any of that stuff for myself anymore, but any arty friend of my daughter’s (lots of those) or arty relative with a birthday is likely to get something nice from there if I’ve half a chance to drop in just because it gives me the excuse to browse.
Those big chain places, in contrast, they’re like some sad, wan, pale, toxic mockery of that. Can’t figure going there would actually be real good for anyone with artistic temperament. You’d worry just going near the place, their muse might die of something poisonous, wafting off of all those plastic ferns.
“We”? How old are you?
AJ Milne:
Word. It’s been years since I’ve been in one too. There was a real art supply store in Bismarck at one time. It’s been gone over 10 years now, and I still miss it.
@Jadehawk-
Try Jet, Onyx, dyed agate, or Obsidian. I also completely second the advice to go to http://www.firemountaingems.com, they are seriously way better and cheaper than any crafts store I’ve ever been to.
Back to the original topic, I’m honestly more on Hobby Lobby’s side for this one. Let their bigotry stand loud and proud, it helps me know who to boycott. I’ve also always thought that if a decent human being really believed most of us were going to hell, the proper response would be the “stop them from walking out into traffic” response.
It’s like how people who believe abortion is genocide should really be killing more doctors if they truly follow their beliefs to the logical end.
Based on what you’ve written, LeeLeeOne, it sounds as if your *family* was very self-reliant….but so far no mention about what you yourself have done to live within your own wherewithall.
Several posters have asked about your computer already. I can’t wait to hear how you constructed it.
This poll sucks. Where’s the option for people who think that Hobby Lobby has every right to preach at their customers, and Sarah has every right not to patronize businesses who preach at her?
Jadehawk asked: “does anyone know of a material for beads that’s black and heavy, but not hematite? the selection for hematite beads is always rather limited, so I’m thinking I might need to find an alternative.”
If you use faceted hematite you can get czech fire polished glass beads that are nearly identical from Fire Mountain Gems at http://www.firemountaingems.com/search.asp?skw=czech+hematite
Fire Mountain also has a hematite like product they call hemalyke. http://www.firemountaingems.com/search.asp?skw=hemalyke
If you want real hematite a good place to get it is http://www.limabeads.com/Hematite-Gemstone-Beads-C486. Limabeads stuff is of good quality, but yes there isn’t a lot of choices.
No one in “Hobby Lobby” has every tried to indoctrinate me any time I was there though I am not a regular. I have no problem with them selling loads of Christian themed crafts. After all if I owned the place I still sell them on the idea that you give the customers what they want.
If they want to close on Sunday or any other day of the week that is their business and their loss.
If the owners want to donate part of their earnings to some wacky stuff, it is their right to do what they wish with their money. Though knowing what will happen to my money once it becomes their money might discourage me from shopping there in the first place.
However there is one thing thing that they have utterly no right to do: discriminate against any customer, employee, or someone applying to be an employee on the basis of their religion. The laws against that sort of thing really do apply to them.
I carry on my grand-parents and parents’ tradition of self-reliance.
I use a computer and cable to access the Internet. I trade (my woodworking skills) to gain something.
I do not see that I am a “self-righteous dikbag” about pointing out how this subject regarding Hobby Lobby could actually be mute.
All I am saying is: Hobby Lobby is a symptom.
Moot. The word you’re looking for is moot.
So, what you’re saying is that you pay cash money for internet access? The hypocrite label sticks pretty well.
Holy shit, you’re dense.
Oh, and when you tell someone else how they should live and make their living, then you are being a self-righteous dickbag*.
*Hey look! I swear like a really real adult!
Why would trading be better than cash? Tax cheating?
No, I said Mute… not Moot…
Mute, is quiet (but open) … Moot , is dead (never open for discussion).
LeeLeeOne wrote:
The question wasn’t about how you get internet access, it was about how you pay for it – and how your pay for the electricity you use. Sending your energy provider a hand-carved shoe-horn; a bushel of ripe huckleberries or your shiniest, fattest, softest-eyed goat probably isn’t going to work.
#88 tax cheating
Really? taxes? I celebrated tonight… I had the honor of being able to actually file my taxes, including paying. I actually have the right to pay taxes! Not something my grandparents and parents had.
Holy shit.*
*(My family, we were always expressing surprise with profanity like that while en route to the US during the potato famine. Those were some tough times, I can tell you. I’m glad we didn’t have to trade our shot glass – I would miss it. But I’m proud of our fortitude, especially mine! The shots have helped.)
One more and then it’s time for bed (it’s late here):
I have no handy skills to “trade” (or, in the real world with real words, earn money from). I have no land to grow anything on (I live in a *gasp!* city. I have no lawn, only a bricked over courtyard.) So, I earn my living selling automotive collision parts.
I’m not “self reliant” (not that I’m totally convinced you are, living on the grid as you are), but so what? Why come on here where there was a perfectly nice conversation about Hobby Lobby, crafting, and art and act like you can dictate how others can earn their living?
And you’re still misusing “mute.”
LeeLeeOne,
Seriously – are you high right now?
#90… “pay for it” … hmmm “Pay for it.”
How do I “pay” for it? Really?
omgs!
Ok, my time is up… ni ni all
And completely wrong about moot. Because, you know, “never open for discussion” is not the same as “open to discussion.”
LeeLeeOne wrote:
Feel free not to come back – you incoherent, dipshit fucking clown shoe.
Jadehawk – I used to cook up rose petal “beads” in a cast iron skillet that turned black as sin…*smirk*… but it took huge amounts of rose petals to make them.
My self reliance is solely limited to my skills as a home brewer and the ability to keep a pot of basil alive for the last year. Other than that I am a complete slave to society and am desperately entrenched in it for my survival.
..what can I say, my ancestors were capitalist pigs.
Sorry John Locke, gotta go with Sarah here.
WowbaggerOM, you displayed much more patience than I was willing to do. I figured “leelee” for a dyed in the wool idiot and decided to ignore. Thanks to you and others, we found out “leelee” is not just an idiot, but a mealy-mouthed, weaselly hypocrite of an idiot.
I get so fucking annoyed with said idiots when, faced with an actual, easy to answer question, they can never manage an actual answer.
Caine, Fleur du mal wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, failure to engage is the greatest crime a person can commit on a blog, and the one most likely to drive me to make the kind of comments that the pissants at The Intersection think make me worse than Hitler.
Banned idiot ‘professor’ dendy aggravated me not because he was a moron (of epic proportions), but because he didn’t make any points or attempt to answer questions.
LeeLeeOne was much the same; he/she realised the stupidity of what he/she had written, but isn’t possessed of the necessary character to admit the mistake and apologise to those who’d been slurred and move on; instead, he/she just avoided answering the question – on several occasions.
Someone we can definitely do without.
I’m going to guess that LeeLee knitted the entire computer out of hemp. Until presented with evidence to the contrary, I like the mental image enough to believe it.
Briefly digressing to go back to the article, I think that while Hobby Lobby was well within their rights to advertise their religion and say whatever they want about religion, their response to Sarah’s complaint was enough to put me “on her side.” While the complaint has no legal basis, she isn’t making a legal claim – she’s making a simple statement of criticism, “Your practices make me uncomfortable,” which has equal merit to someone complaining about any other perceived defect in a business (dirty bathrooms, rude staff, etc.).
If the company had simply responded, “Sorry it offended you, but we’re a Christian business and it’s our policy. We didn’t mean to offend or exclude,” that would have been appropriate, but to go into a condescending attempt to convert a customer who has already expressed discomfort is to really cross the line.
I won’t be going back to Hobby Lobby (even though they’re the only place that sells safety eyes for miles), and I sent them an email to that effect, citing this exchange.
WowbaggerOM:
You won’t get an argument out of me. I did almost snort my cider when I read the comment about “we pay taxes, we’re proud to pay taxes!” Someone doesn’t know how that how tax thing works. ;p
What the heck are safety eyes?
@Martha:
OMG, that’s what every Hobby Lobby employee said (another reason I don’t want to go back).
They’re little eyes for crocheted stuffed animals (amigurumi) that you stick through and clip on with a piece of plastic. They look like this. Fun fact: Ironically, they can come off and lodge in children’s throats, so they are not, in fact, “safe.”
Martha, search is your friend.
When he said
I just had to revisit this:
Bride of Shrek OM, I can’t watch video, but that line made me think.
1) TradeIdiot is using a computer at the library, internet cafe or a friend’s house.
2) TradeIdiot is a child, being supported with cashy money by adults, who has used up his/her allotted ‘net time.
3) TradeIdiot is being the usual weasel and running away rather than answer really complex questions, like how do you obtain electricity?
Considering LeeLeeOne mentioned grandparents surviving the Irish Potato Famine – which took place in the mid 1840s and early 1850s, I’m either going to stick with my earlier assumption of ‘stoned out of his/her gourd’ – or, failing that, so damn old that his/her mental faculties have degraded.
Does anyone know someone old enough to have had grandparents who were born so long ago that they’d more than 160 if they were still alive?
1)thanks for the advice, everybody. the problem with shopping for bead on the net is that I can’t tell whether the stones are heavy; and that’s pretty much the most important part, since their purpose is to serve as weights…
2)stoners on the internet are not fun
3)we do actually have a small art supply store in minot, but it has a relatively small selection of everything, and I haven’t been doing any painting in so long I forgot about its existence. and it doesn’t carry beads, which is what I need right now.
I’ll stick to Michael’s and Dakota Art, thx.
Tell us more Jadehawk. If just weights why not use any piece of granite or basalt you find around Minot? What is special about the hematite besides its weight and how are you using it?
If all you need is black heavy stone onyx works. Don’t use jet, too light.
@LeeLeeOne #72
“My family lived through what is called the potato famine. We survived.
We ate what we could grow, we made what we could make, and we traded what we could trade. If we could not trade, then we did without.”
Wow, you must be really old.
I hate Hobby Lobby. At the one in my town, the employees are really nice and helpful, but the store policies suck, for them and for the customers. There are certain products I need that literally no one else carries, but if I need something on a Sunday, I have to drive to the next town over (about 60 miles away) to go to Michael’s, which is more expensive and has a more limited selection.
If I know ahead of time that I’m going to need something and have time to wait, I use dickblick.com. They have an incredible selection of things like paint and brushes, and are about half the price of Hobby Lobby (with shipping it ends up being about the same or slightly less than HL would have been).
I think from now on, I’m going to drive to Michael’s or buy online as much as possible.
Interestingly, I stopped a guy from walking out into traffic a few months back.
It was on a traffic circle in Washington DC, where there are two concentric driving circles and two pedestrian crosswalks in line. The guy did what is very easy to do at that poorly-designed crossing–he saw me crossing with a light toward him, assumed his crossing was part of the same signal crossing, and he stepped out. I was looking for cars in his lane, because I was going to cross his crossing illegally instead of balancing on the narrow curb, if there were no cars in that inner circle, but there was a car, and it was coming fast.
I saw death coming for the man, and I saw him looking toward me, not at the car. I had to do something, but there was no time to even think. I reflexively stuck a hand up and out in a gesture for him to to stop, and said, again without thinking, a very Japanese-sounding “Hai!”. He stopped, the car went by, we smiled at each other, I said that I had done that the day before, and we both went on with our days.
And I hadn’t thought about that incident for months.
So, Hobby Lobby man, that’s how an atheist stops someone from getting hit by a car. I had no time at all to think, but I had to do something, even though I am an atheist. It worked, fortunately. I then said something to make the guy feel better, and went on away.
I didn’t berate the guy, or make him feel obliged, or tell him about Jesus. I just let him go and let it go. It was life. And I was glad I could help.
Before this thread I had never heard of Hobby Lobby.
I do know that there is a bookstore chain in South Africa called CUM Books.
Bride of Shrek OM (BoSOM teehee) #99
How?
I live at 53° north. Every time I bring a basil in for the winter, it grows creepy 50cm long tendrils with two leaves and then dies.
Wowbagger #110: To be fair, LL1 only mentioned the potato famine in the context of his/her family having survived it (#72). The grandparent comment (#66) was about a great-grandparent using candle wax to make art.
That said, I’m not defending the hypocritical twit. If I’d overheard this exchange as a real life conversation I’d have barged in and shouted “Answer the fucking question!” when the idiot refused to say how they paid for their internet time.
FossilFishy, she did use the word “we.” I don’t know about you, but whenever I saw “we,” I mean a group that includes me. I know that’s not really what she meant, but she still somehow seems to feel that the fact that her family survived the famine somehow gives her the benefit of that experience, like if it happened to people related to her, it happened to her. Unlike, say, the millions of other Americans, including me, whose ancestors survived the Irish famine and who are happy to be able to buy manufactured goods.
I’m not saying everything large companies do is good, and I’m sure most of the people here would agree, more or less, but man, what a self-righteous, misty-eyed hippie idiot.
mostly, it’s just to prettily weigh down some pieces of clothing, to keep them from flying off (or up) in the lightest breeze (I’m not even going to attempt fighting proper North Dakota winds. I’d have to sew cinderblocks to things to keep them from being blown away in one of those; the only solution for those is to not go outside).
Which makes about as much sense as me justifying some behaviour because ‘we’ survived the Black fucking Plague in England in the 1600s. They survived it; I didn’t do dick.
LL1 is a stupid bucket of festering pig crap. Should he/she return I’m going to make it my business to annoy him/her the entire time.
The whole attitude is based on the assumption that their customers have never heard of ‘the saving power of Jesus’. This obviously crap! Can there be anyone in the entire country who hasn’t heard of christianity? I doubt it. Therefore it’s got no relationship to the ‘man walking into traffic’ position, the man/customer knows the traffic is imaginary and would like to cross the road in peace. It’s nothing but self righteous harrassment of their customers, I can imagine even the religious ones getting sick of the assumption that they need saving.
Jadehawk:
You aren’t kidding. You’re lucky to keep the hair on your head when they really get going. There’s a store in Bismarck, Treasures of Earth and Sea that has a large bead stock. I just did a search, and they have a website: http://www.treasuresofseaandearth.com/shop/
I had a discussion once with a fellow that said my need for glasses made me a less-adapted human being. I gave him a version of something I once read (by Asimov?) about my need for glasses making me a better member of civilization, as I depend on an intact society for my very vision, and am therefor ideally adapted.
I offer the same argument to LeeLeeOne. Those who do not interact with society do not support it and are not adapted to it. Those of us who cannot live without a frickin’ computer are part of this society and are likely working to make it better.
Or something like that.
yeah. one of those nearly knocked me off my bike the other day. that’s what I get for trying to get fit, instead of driving a properly weighed down Hummer :-p
and speaking of weights… I notie that the hippie troll thought you were trying to be 300lbs of paper, rather than 300lbs pressed paper. that amuses me.
Menyambal:
Yes, well, LeeLee insisted there was no need for anything which could not be raised, made or bartered for, then recycled. LeeLee then said that he/she was on the net by virtue of having a computer and cable. Next up, LeeLee reiterated the greatness of self-reliance and living through trade alone. LeeLee then refused to say how he/she obtained electricity.
When someone asked what the virtue of living via trade was specifically, was it perhaps not paying taxes, LeeLee crowed about being extremely proud of paying taxes. And so on, until LeeLee ran off due to more (basically the same) questions being asked. There’s no question LeeLee is an idiot; I am tending to go with Wowbagger’s theory that he/she was also an extremely stoned idiot.
notice, and buy.
apparently, the stoner hippie is getting me stoned by proxy.
Jadehawk:
FFS, really? I didn’t notice that. Yeah, like I could ever afford 300 lbs of that particular Arches D’Moulin. Not in this lifetime.
Can someone explain what’s meant by 300lb paper? I have no idea what that means, and I hate not knowing stuff*.
*Which, of course, is vaguely amusing considering this is a science blog and my knowledge of science extends to all of one year of university chemistry – of which I remember precious little.
Wowbagger,
They are talking about the paper density. Heavier paper tends to be preferred for painting with watercolours for example because it has less tendency to buckle.
The simplest answer to LeeLee’s idiotic mantra is that money is trade. I trade my talents for numbers that I can then trade for goods and services. By using these “numbers” (money) makes it possible to trade with vendors anywhere in the world. So yes, if I can’t make it myself, I trade money for it.
And I’m with Wowbagger about “failure to engage”. That is the most aggravating thing about some commentators. I hate these cryptic pronouncements by some who then keep repeating them without ever explaining what the hell they mean by it and never answer any questions.
Like LeeLee: ok “make it yourself or trade for it” fine, but what the hell does that have to do with HobbyLobby’s evangelism?
IIRC, it signifies the density of a sheet of paper. 300lbs means that 500 sheets of that particular paper would weigh that much. buying a 300lbs cold pressed Arches paper means you’re buying a heavy, somewhat roughly textured sheet of paper. generally used for watercolors.
I was fairly sure that it wasn’t going to turn out to be 300lb of something, but I was also more than a little unsure as to what that something would turn out to be.
Of course it doesn’t help that in Australia we don’t (generally) use feet & inches to measure things…
It occurs that the better description of the Hobby Lobby type of Christianity is not “saving people from traffic” but, rather, “back-seat driving”.
The worst incident in my life of annoying back-seat driving was from a family of quite Christian women.
The single worst thing about Hobby Lobby’s christian branding is the music. I really hate standing there, looking for the beads, fabric, paint, or whatever else I need, and having to listen to the same three smarmy classical guitar instrumental hymns over and over. Worst version of Amazing Grace ever.
OK, I have a theory about LeeLee – vampires! That’d explain how the family got through the potato famine, they don’t eat potatos!
Also, all of the talk about being self-sufficient blah blah blah, made me think of this project: an attempt to build a toaster from raw materials. Utterly fascinating.
Look folks, I’m not defending this idjit’s use of the word “we” or anything else. My only point was that Wow’s attack on LL1’s claiming to have known a living relative who survived the potato famine was a small reading fail. One that in no way invalidated his other points. Nor am I suggesting anyone should hesitate to slam LL1 if he or she should return. Jebus knows there’s plenty there to slam, and I surely enjoy reading the critical responses.
FossilFishy, I hope my response to you didn’t come across as more argumentative than I meant it too. I’m just so amused by LL1 that I can’t even compose my thoughts properly.
To, not too. Usually I screw that up the other way.
While I’m is happy to admit I did misread, I will just clarify that I didn’t claim that it was a living relative being described; it was that I thought from what LL1 wrote was that he/she had grandparent(s) who had survived the Irish Potato famine. Considering that was 160 or so years or so makes it statistically unlikely (thought not impossible) that any of his/her grandparents were alive back then if he/she wasn’t also quite old.
No worries MarianL I didn’t feel like you were being argumentative. I just wanted to be clear about the scope of my point. I’ll also add that the only reason I nitpicked on Wow was because I don’t have anything valid to say about LL1 that hasn’t already been said by Wow and the others.
Bah. Urghle. Blech.
Why did LL1 have to mention that he/she is a woodworker.
On behalf of myself and Crudely Wrott, I beseech thee, do not judge us all akin.
Wow: fair enough.
OK, I know I saw a post where someone called LL1 a clown shoe, with some extra profanity in there, and I am dying to find it again so I can read the quote to my dad, but I can’t find it. Did it disappear, or am I not looking hard enough?
MarianLibrarian
Wowbagger #97 (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/hobby_lobby_poll.php#comment-2433412) I think.
MarianL it was #97.
MarianLibrarian,
Use Ctrl+f to find character strings on a page.
It’s a serious time saver.
Cool. Thanks, all three of you.
Wait? Atheists bead?????
It just seems too innocuous an endeavour for atheists to be doing. Shouldn’t you be out roasting babies? But beading? And knitting?
**Shakes head in bemusement**
what do you think my ivory beads are made of?
I’m a little surprised that anyone who’s been in Hobby Lobby could have failed to realize the company’s religious proclivities. Besides the closed-on-Sunday thing, they’ve got wall plaques with Bible verses, tote bags with Bible verses, and pocket notebooks with Bible verses …
and at the checkout candy rack, right there beside the Altoids are boxes of Scripture Mints and (I swear) “Testa-Mints”.
Also their Muzak is heavily laced with instrumental renditions of Christian hymns. I actually complained about this: it’s the only store I’ve ever been in and heard “Rock of Ages, cleft for me” or “How Great Thou Art” playing in the background.
At least those are both OK hymns (musically, I mean). It would be a lot worse if they were playing cheesy modern Christian music. (Back when I was a serious believer, in my teens, my old church used sometimes to do modern praise-bandy-stuff like “Shine, Jesus, Shine” and “We want to see Jesus lifted high”. Now having to listen to that crap would make anyone an atheist.) :-)
But yeah… I can see how it would be really obnoxious and irritating.
I think Sastra @#15 is right.
This is particularly a big problem in British culture, in fact. In our society, it tends to be considered socially incorrect to be too vehement about religion either way, or to go around saying that your beliefs are right and other people’s beliefs are wrong. A lot of people confuse religious tolerance with treating all religious beliefs are equally valid.
So it’s considered socially incorrect for hardline fundagelicals (quite rare in Britain, but they do exist) to go around proselytising and claiming that their faith is the one true path to salvation. But it’s also, equally, considered controversial for atheists and sceptics to go around saying that religion in general is nonsense. Rather, the norm is a sort of wishy-washy “respect for all beliefs”.
This isn’t a situation that’s desirable, IMO, or that we should accept. While religious tolerance is desirable, this only entails accepting others’ right to hold and practice different beliefs without being subjected to coercion or punishment. It does not mean that we have to “respect” all beliefs equally or treat them all as equally valid. Ultimately, the Judeo-Christian God either exists in some form or he doesn’t; Jesus is either the saviour of mankind or he isn’t. These are issues on which some people must be right and others wrong; it isn’t possible for everyone to be “right in different ways”. So it’s actually better, IMO, for the evangelicals to be honest and upfront about what they believe; and for non-believers to be honest and upfront about the fact that we think they’re wrong.
And we should be absolutely unequivocal about the fact that some religious beliefs are simply and manifestly wrong. If someone believes in intelligent design, or transubstantiation, or faith healing, these are not just “different beliefs” that deserve respect and deference; rather, they are beliefs that run counter to empirical evidence and established reality. We shouldn’t be afraid to say so; and, conversely, people who do hold those beliefs shouldn’t be discouraged from being honest about it.
#122:
This. As obnoxious as foreign missionary work often is, at least it makes more sense in the Christian context, if done where there’s a real chance of finding people who haven’t had the opportunity to hear the Christian message. But a store proselytising to Americans? I’m sure this is more about riding the “Christians = good people” meme in order to make more money than it is about “saving” anyone.
Has the Hobby Lobby got ‘the fish’ displayed?
I like it when businesses display ‘the fish’, because then they are at least upfront about their fishiness, and can be avoided.
Maybe Irish vampires only eat potatoes
I’m on Sarah’s side.
This isn’t a court case, and she is not saying they don’t have a right to make her uncomfortable as a customer, she’s just complaining that she has been mistreated. If employees are rude to me, I don’t say that rudeness is against the law, but I do reserve the right to complain about it and suggest I take my business elsewhere.
The store employee displays astonishing obtuseness and learns absolutely nothing from the exchange. They need to either admit that they are a Christian store and don’t seek to satisfy anyone else, or at the very, very least apologize WITHOUT then proceeding to commit the offense again.
I am on Sarah’s side. Not in argument over religion, not in a legal case, but simply in an argument over multicultural coexistence.
It is not only the tunes, although having to listen to such tunes would be mitigation should a member of the congregation go mad and slaughter his fellow worshippers. It is the way they wave their hands in the air and adopt a vacant look on their faces. I suspect they would claim they were filled with the spirit of the Lord, but to me they just look as though they are so lacking in brain cells they cannot get a synapse going.
I was going to go with John Locke, but then saw that the hyperlink went to the historical John Locke and not the Lost character. I wanted to vote for the smoke monster, not some dead philosopher.
Well, you haven’t asked WHAT we knit or bead – a combination of practical, burlesque, goth, and steampunk. Plus nerdy mathematical stuff a la toroidalsnark, and, of course, roasted babies.
The main thing is that we do NOT knit or bead pastel toilet seat covers with images of the double donged Jesus or wee baby angels or both. I’m knitting 3 pairs of socks at the moment, plus an couple of afghans. Going to start a purple silk lace shawl any day now. Plus I spin with a drop spindle and fool with natural dyes.
The only thing atheists aren’t supposed to do is scrapbook. Real atheists do edgy collage and avoid the scrapbooking aisles of craft stores like the plague that they are.
I’ve gotten the same comments from religious people about how I’m not supposed to spin because I’m a feminist, and everyone knows those people are allergic to anything that might at one time be defined as a stereotypically feminine task (like laundry, for example).
Now off to put on those heels and pearls and clean the house…
I’ve avoided Hobby Lobby ever since I found out who and what they really are. They discriminate in their hiring practices, fire employees who they discover aren’t Christian, and send part of their profits to a hard-line, extreme right-wing Christian church.
I highly recommend going to Joanne Fabrics, Michael’s Crafts, Hancock fabrics, or any other possible craft supply store before setting foot in a Hobby Lobby.
Late to the party, but…
My paternal grandfather would be in his mid-120s if he were alive, and I’m under 30. (My father was the 11th child, and was in his 40s when I was born.) It’s not inconceivable that someone could have grandparents who were at least alive during the potato famine.
Not that it matters – LL1 still only has a single pot leaf where his/her brain should be.
Up here in the cold country I have never heard of Hobby Lobby. We have Michaels, Mary Maxim, and lots of independent stores. My local (30 k) art store stretches my needlepoint beautifully.
So I googled the locations of HL. There are none in new England, none on the Pacific Coast, and apparently lots in the centre. hmm.. Isn’t that the division between the Red and Blue states during your last presidential election? Just saying…
They have apparently wised up and are now sending out form letters to people who comment on the thing. This is what I got:
I love real art supplies stores, and the materials in them. There’s this cool little place up the road from me that sells acrylics ‘n oils ‘n watercolors ‘n easels and nice brushes ‘n beautiful papers ‘n charcoal ‘n pastels ‘n coloured pencils and all that, and it’s all good.
I love real art supply stores, too. Fortunately, I live in a place that has at least three that I know of. My son periodically needs supplies for the manga he draws; we were amazed to find screen tone sheets at Herweck’s downtown. These can be very, very hard to find, even online, but there they were, with barely a wave of the hand and a “follow me” from a clerk.
I’m not a crafts person at all (I’m lucky if I can thread a needle), but I’ve been to a few Hobby Lobby locations here in SA to look for things my mom wanted but couldn’t get in McAllen. HL failed to impress so much that I no longer bother with them. The stores were clean enough, but had that Walmart warehouse junk shop look, even worse than Michael’s. Worse than that, though, was that the selection was crap. I swear, a good Walmart will have better quality craft chingaderas.
We have some great mom-and-pop specialty stores for things like yarn and beads (and who knows what else), and they rarely fail me. Why would I go to Hobby Lobby, when Yarnivore has yarns that make me seriously consider taking up knitting?
I resemble that remark.
(I don’t think LeeLeeOne was stoned, just incredibly dumb. And in love with the sound of his or her own voice, or typing as it were.)
I don’t like the hypocrite retort; while it’s important that people put their money (or goods and services for barter) where their mouths are, it’s easy to set an unreasonably high bar for behaviour and use any failure to achieve that bar as an excuse for inaction. How many AGW denialists have whined that PZ’s frequent flying makes him a hypocrite and therefore AGW isn’t happening or is unimportant or whatever? (Answer: 11.68.)
Having said that, what was so infuriating about LeeLeeOne’s little bumper sticker slogan was that it was so incredibly insipid. What do any of these things have to do with each other? I mean, I’m familiar with the theory and philosophy behind reduced-consumption or conserver lifestyles, and generally the exhortation to be more conscientious about consumption is a good one for a number of environmental, economic, and social reasons. But to designate necessary consumption as only involving goods that are homegrown, homemade, or bartered for is home trepanation-level stupid. Hell, I could grow any number of things the consumption of which would be unwise for me and unhealthy for the environment (or whatever LeeLeeOne’s point is). In fact, I have grown and consumed my own food; doing it myself doesn’t mystically imbue it with planet-fixing magic. In fact, should LeeLeeOne have occasion to barter with a bookstore owner, s/he might want to familiarise him- or herself with the effects of colonists from the Emerald Isles and elsewhere in Europe who’ve tried to convert the world to bowling greens—they grew ’em themselves, of course—with devastating environmental consequences, should that be LeeLeeOne’s point. (Besides, who fucking canonised* farmers? I live in a province full of ’em, and they tend to vote like douchebags.) And the cottage industrialist’s obsession with barter is as ludicrous as those libertarians who are obsessed with the gold standard.
What s/he’s done is taken a collection of anti-consumer and environmentalist messages and mixed ’em up like a tabouleh with no real thought behind it. (Unlike non-stupid anti-consumers or conservers, who would have had useful advice for Caine, Fleur de Mal on what to do about 300 lb cold press arches. See, for instance, How to Survive Without A Salary by Charles Long.)
The fact that s/he just kept repeating his or her little catch phrase like s/he was a fucking Zen master scolding an errant pupil just made it all the more idiotic. So LeeLeeOne, you’re asking us to take your little stock phrase and thoughtlessly chant it like a mantra without examination? Isn’t that exactly the opposite of what you’re trying to get us to do with consumer goods?
*I know, I know. Thesaurus fail.
Kristin Mueller-Heaslip wrote:
Oh, I know it’s possible; I just thought it was unlikely – since it would require two generations of ‘late-in-life’ parenthood, in periods where people (on average) didn’t live as long as they do today.
I’d never heard of Hobby Lobby until moving to Texas 4 years ago, and then a store was built literally within walking distance of our home a couple of years ago. I thought it was nice to have a place nearby to get occasional sewing or craft supplies, and they have a great selection of picture frames. Yes, I noticed that they are closed on Sunday, but this is the bible belt, after all, so I didn’t think much more about it. The staff is friendly and helpful, I’ve never had any reason to feel uncomfortable there, and I have never seen a craft store better supplied and maintained.
However, now that I see the big picture, I’ll take my small amount of business elsewhere. It won’t hurt their bottom line one bit , but I’d rather support a secular business. Please tell me Michael’s isn’t run by bible thumpers, too.
I just checked on ravelry (a yarn-related social networking site) and there are FIVE atheist/agnostic/nontheist groups, one with almost 3000 members. Hoooooraaaaaah. Perhaps I’ll start a pharyngulista group as well…
So yes, everyone, take up knitting, and I’ll graph out the atheist A for use in projects and post it on ravelry.
I’m with kilternkafuffle #158. A courteous letter expressing discomfort with the religiosity should not be answered with a sermon. FWIW, all Sarah said was that as she’s not a Christian, she felt alienated by their message and is taking her business elsewhere. How difficult would it have been for them to reply without further proselytization? I’ve never heard of them before, but I’ll remember this if I’m ever looking for art supplies in an area where they do business.
My maternal grandmother is 91. I believe her grandfather came over from Ireland (as an adult) in the early 1880s. Now, he may have been a young enough adult to not have been born before the famine, or I could be forgetting a generation, but it’s certainly possible. However, she doesn’t spend time with computers!
Jadehawk: On the weighted beads topic, I’d actually recommend sewing some fishing weights to the hem, perhaps turning the hem up or adding a trim strip to cover them. Or if you have lots of time to spend on the project, enough glass seed beads can be very heavy! I also second the recommendation for onyx.
Moggie–
One of my relatives is dating someone whose parents were Presbyterian missionaries in Korea, and raised him there (in a weirdly insular community of English-speaking missionaries: despite growing up in Korea, he doesn’t know the language at all). Apparently the Christian community in Korea is concerned enough about atheism, agnosticism, and non-Christian religions in the United States that they are sending missionaries to the Americans, in a sort of returning-the-favor attitude.
Yes, there are plenty of Americans happy to proselytize, but maybe the Korean Christians think that the Americans aren’t very good at it.
@ 166
Ah, now I can die happy. I saw someone on the internet refer to chingaderas.
Here’s a “Boycott Hobby Lobby” fanpage!
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=115304265154201&v=info
@ambook
There already is a Rav fan group for PZ
http://www.ravelry.com/groups/pharyngula-phan-klub
I have long noticed that knitting is another locus of godlessness. I don’t know why, but some of the fiercest atheists out there also identify with various crafty groups.
Re PZ @ 176:
*raises hand enthusiastically
guilty
The work of an atheist knitter I know:
http://www.etsy.com/view_transaction.php?transaction_id=24032317
Cthulhu has sold, but if you contact her, I’ll bet she’d make you another one.
You really don’t have to stop using the store. The owner’s just using it as a gimmick to get customers.
He’s also an Oklahoman, or at least, from around them parts, and he’s a world class a-hole.
#179 VampDuc
I doesn’t matter to me how sincere it is, I’d rather not have it in my face when I go to the store or the website. It started out being mildly annoying, but they’ve gradually gotten more aggressive in their proselytizing over time. This is kind of the final straw for me, and I don’t think I’ll be going back unless there is something that I really can’t get anywhere else.
VampDuc:
I doubt forking over hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund a bible museum is a gimmick. The full page ads and stocking of distinctly xtian items doesn’t strike me as gimmick either. Nor does the chain of Xtian book and supply stores.
It’s called having principles.
Everyone seems to think that I have run away from a difficult subject. No, I did not run away, I just simply had to go to bed.
I barter for my Internet time. I use solar and wind energy for my electrical needs. Which almost always means I give to the grid more than I take from the grid.
I bought, because I was unable to barter, these huge needs; the supplies I needed to establish solar and wind power. I bartered to help install and establish these energy harvesters.
Yes, my family did survive the potato famine. Did I claim that it was me or my siblings that directly survived? Did I claim that it was my parents who directly survived? Did I claim that it was my great-ancestors who directly survived? Did I claim or imply any of that?
I live in a city. I have a garden and I use part of my property for a neighborhood garden because most everyone else has exquisite lawns and ornaments and patios and decks that do not give sunshine or nourishment of soil.
I love earthworms and birds but that is not enough. A friend has a huge area where they have a worm farm – worms turn and work pre-compost (egg shells and coffee grounds, etc.) into fertile soil. I barter for this awesome topsoil.
I do not need anything by the ilk of Hobby Lobby and their evangelism. I pay my taxes and am happy that I have the ability to do so. After all, I do walk the side walks, and do take my dogs to the public dog park, and do sit in the public and state libraries to peruse books and videos, and do turn to my neighbors and talk with them. I take care of my home and can gift to neighbors, friends, and family through being frugal.
I can gift the planet what the planet has gifted me.
Go ahead and think that I am high on something or dreaming or whatever.
And I can wish more of you could know and experience my reality. My life is what I make of it. It’s my responsibility, after all, because it’s my life.
OK!
LeeLeeOne,
Congratulations on being morally superior to those of us who use money instead of dirt to buy things.
LeeLee:
That requires cash. Dirty, filthy cash. Or has the IRS begun to accept woodwork? I’m sure that would be big news.
I think there’s a clear line that can be drawn from having a skeptical, inquiring mindset to DIY craftiness.
For myself, I know that same impulse of curiosity that leads me to read astronomy magazines leads me to question how the everyday objects in my life work. I’ll never make any discoveries about deep space objects; somehow my requests for observing time on Hubble go unanswered. But sometimes my inquires into how the things I use everyday work ends with the realization that “Hey, I could build this!”
Knowledge is all well and good, discovering new facts makes me very happy. But putting that knowledge to work is even more satisfying.
LeeLee: You seem to be asserting that barter is superior to using cash. Why? What reasons and evidence do you have for this position?
Yep, the US requires “cash” in some form eventually. Yep, Money; dollars and cents in US denominations. Yep, I have never denied that. I pay my taxes in US dollars.
In private practice, clients and their insurers can expect dollars spent to go toward non-payable accounts and/or Medicaid accounts.
A simple office without the bells and whistles.
It seems to be appreciated.
I want to know why the vocal on this thread feel it necessary or needed to say what you have said.
I do not shy away from taxes, I grow my own food and give the space to others to help grow their own food, I am not “high”, patients are treated as humans and not as revolving bank accounts, I fix my own but I recognize what I cannot physically do, so I barter.
I do not like Hobby Lobby. That was the original point of this thread, right?
FossilFishy:
Sure it is. What makes LeeLeeIdiot (or anyone else) think that none of us do that? I make a lot of things that get everyday use, I grow things, etc. Simply because I buy a specific type of paper doesn’t make me a bad, lazy person who couldn’t possibly be responsible for her life.
The crap LeeLeeIdiot is spouting is just that, crap. This is a case of someone willing to say anything, whether it makes sense or not, in order to feel superior.
You know, I’ve been thinking about LeeLee’s self-righteousness about the whole only-bartering-for-goods-made-by-your-neighbors thing, and something occurred to me. This line of reasoning bothers me because it implies that not taking part in society is better than taking part. Menyambal made a point above (#124) where he/she hypothesized that people who rely upon society as a whole are more well-adapted than those who are independent. I agree with this.
Money is a great example of this. The value of money is literally imaginary. It’s only worth something because our society agrees that it is. Because of this (and with a great deal of help from modern technology), I am able to trade for goods that came from the other side of the planet. I probably couldn’t get a certain CD that I want from Australia by trading one of my crafts, but I can get one by paying money that someone in turn paid to me, because I performed labor for them. That’s kind of amazing.
I know that global trade causes a lot of people to be exploited, but here’s the thing: My life and the life of the factory worker in China who is being exploited by large corporations are directly, measurably connected. I am directly affected by that person, whereas someone who lives “off the grid” and out of society, and only interacts economically with those closest to her or him, is not. Improvements in the way human cultures interact with one another economically are much more likely to be created by those who participate in the system, not those who ignore it.
#188 LeeLeeOne
“I want to know why the vocal on this thread feel it necessary or needed to say what you have said.”
Do you mean you want to know why people have said the things they’ve said to you? It’s because you came off as preachy, superior, like you had the magical answer to all of the world’s problems, and you were incoherent and made very little sense. I tend to find that pretty annoying, and I’ve noticed that most of the other people on this blog seem to, as well.
Also, LeeLee, “necessary” and “needed” are synonyms, so it’s not necessary or needed to use both of them in an either/or sentence.
MarianLibrarian:
Exactly. Working for money is trade.
Absolutely. Change is not fomented by those who hide in their little corner, claiming they are better than everyone else. Attempting to hector everyone into a ‘barter only’ lifestyle is pointless as well. If everyone on the planet did that, we’d be going backwards in a very big way.
#190: “Improvements in the way human cultures interact with one another economically are much more likely to be created by those who participate in the system, not those who ignore it.”
Re-read and re-think this.
Perhaps your statement implies more or or implies less than what you intended.
See, LeeLee, this is what I mean when I say you are incoherent. What the fuck are you talking about? If you want an answer, you’re going to have to explain yourself, because I’m not going to try to decipher your secret code.
#193
Caine,
The irony is, these people always claim to be more connected, usually via magic.
As a simple question and get a simple… er, hold on…get no answer. So, once again:
LeeLee: What reasons and evidence do you have for your assertion that barter is better than money?
(Apologies if you’re in mid-composition of said answer.)
MarianLibrarian, yes. I’m sure they fart rainbows and burp glitter dust too.
no they don’t. glitter dust is not biodegradable.
and on a similar subject, I spent the afternoon digging in the dirt, collecting worms. I’m so much better than y’all.
and actually, bartering is great, for things that can effectively be bartered (I’ve done food exchanges with Australians for TimTams, for example); for everything else, there’s
MasterCardcold, hard cash.Jadehawk:
It is if it’s fairy glitter dust.
You are! I haven’t started digging yet, it’s still stormy here. The Robins have been busy gathering worms though.
Please, no mentions of TimTams! I’m trying to resist walking the 30 meters between me a giant wall of Timtammy goodness, available only for cash of course.
BTW, have you been introduced to the ritual that is the TimTam slam?
Jadehawk:
Yep. Trading homegrown veg goes on here every summer; we trade a sixer of homebrew for grain; I trade handmade soap for garden plants, etc.
What LeeLeeIdjit doesn’t get is that most of us do things in that vein and that working for money is barter anyway and that just because we work for a living doesn’t mean we aren’t responsible for and with our lives.
oh yes, I have, with private demonstration and tutoring by a real Australian, even :-)
I barter all the time for what I use. I barter my life and time in a little cube. I barter my mad skillz making numbers on a screen do things for machines in order to get numbers on a screen that make it ok to use this plastic thing in my purse to get things.
Because of this I have a place to stay and some machines. Unlike leelee I actually did build one of the machines I use, but it is so hopelessly old that I will soon be trading movements of my colorful plastic thingymabob for other pieces of plastic and metal and silicon that I will put together and make the magic wires in the wall that I send some numbers through come back and keep the circle flowing.
It’s all very spiritual.
MarianLibrarian #190
One of my very first posts at Pharyngula was about money.
If someone wants to talk about money, I’ll be happy to oblige.
‘Tis Himself,
Thank you. That illustrates my poorly expressed point perfectly. It’s pretty damned amazing that our species can conceive of and use such a complex system. It really does seem sort of maladaptive to have the ability and opportunity to use it and yet choose not to.
Not that barter has no place, but it certainly doesn’t come close to meeting all of our needs.
But I’m not really up to a more in-depth economic discussion than that. My brain is geared towards categorizing things like life-forms and books, and working out the patterns of how things are related, but when it comes to economics, after a certain point my eyes glaze over.
I am not being self- anything… I initially stated and discussed about how Hobby Lobby and their like are not needed.
We can take care ourselves and our neighbors and all.
ni ni all and seriously I’m going to bed to sleep. I have a garden that needs cleaning before spring planting. And I get to see my friends and neighbors tomorrow.
And life is good.
I’m familiar with this phenomenon. It’s why I don’t talk too much about economics and try to keep my discussions as jargon-free as possible.
There are two major problems with barter:
● If you want widgets and can only offer junque in exchange, you have to find a widget-owner who’ll accept junque.
● Even if you find someone who’ll accept junque, you and she have to agree on the exchange rate for the two commodities.
Both of these problems are alleviated by using money. You buy widgets at X Cronkites d’Or for each and sell junque at Y Cronkhites d’Or per hogshead. The widget seller may care less about junque but is willing to accept Cronkhites d’Or to buy the stuff she needs.
Christ on a pogo stick, this bullshit is still going on?
Since you’re not letting this one drop:
My family grew wheat in Canada during the mother fucking Dust Bowl and managed to pull through. Do I win some sort of prize* now?
You do realize that just about everyone in the US and Canada can look back in their family history and find suffering, right? Simply being of Irish descent really doesn’t make you all that special.
*I’m thinking something along the lines of a certificate &/or license that proclaims that I have the right to be a sanctimonious shit.
and my family survived having first the Soviets, then the Nazis and then the Soviets again marching through their garden plots within a single war.
I so win this one
*steals certificate of sanctimonious shittiness from OurDeadSelves*
:-p
Jadehawk, that’s so unfair!
*Sigh* I guess I’ll have to find something to barter for a new one. Is anyone interested in half a dozen or so yellow daffodils in exchange for a certificate of sanctimonious shittiness? Anyone?
… Anyone?
‘Tis, I came to that conclusion, and was going to say as much earlier, except in my mind it was “crap I make,” “crap I want,” and “crap other people make that I don’t want.” I’ve had a lot of offers to trade items in my Etsy shops for items in other peoples’ shops, but the reason I have the shops is to make money that I can spend on things like music subscriptions and student loan payments, not stuff I don’t want and could have made myself. It’s really nice that a lot of the crafters there trade, but I have always said no so far.
And LeeLee…Jesus Fucking Christ! Do you honestly not understand that you are arguing in circles and not answering any questions or legitimate points, or are you screwing with us?
No we don’t always need Hobby Lobby, because we have Michael’s, Dickblick, Utrecht, and others, but most of us who make or supplement our livings making art or crafts are not about to go to an insane amount of trouble to trade for substandard paper and whatever else we need when we can get high-quality materials quickly and easily with our credit cards from *gasp* corporate-owned stores selling brand-name manufactured goods!
And what’s up with the “ni ni” bullshit? What are you, 3?
This Oppressed-Off reminds me of an incident in history class. A teacher of Irish heritage was proudly saying the Irish were the most oppressed minority in Canada’s history. The black kid in class then coughed.
All this, my family-is-harder-than your-family talk is starting to sound like a Python skit.
Feynmaniac#214
Nice.
Was the black kid female?
It just occurred to me that bartering work would be a totally shit idea for me. As a criminal lawyer the only skill I have to barter would be free defence and, quite frankly, the person I would be providing it to is just about the last person I want doing anything for me( unless of course I get another total bitch mother-in-law in the future in which case it may help to have some credits accrued with one of my local arsonists)
.. oh wait, I work for a pro bono legal service so the punters are getting it free anyhow. I’m doubly shit out of luck then in the barter stakes.
Me @ 212:
I’m also willing to trade a loaf of Guinness bread (even though I don’t brew my own stout, sorry!) in exchange for the raw materials to craftily make a certificate of sanctimonious shittiness.
I will need:
– A ride to your house.
– Access to a computer and a laser printer.
– At least one piece of paper (and not that weak-assed recycled crap. Paper from virgin pulp or nothing, bitches).
– A few hours to do god-knows-what on your computer.
– A small piece of tape (so I can proudly hang my certificate on my living room wall).
– A ride back to my house.
That’s a fair trade, right? Hey guys, bartering really is fun!
I noted that my family survived the potato famine in order to put my thoughts in historical perspective. I am not wanting to win anyone’s anything. I simply stated an opinion in regard to Hobby Lobby.
I have not lived my life to belittle others. I live my life as my life. If anyone can learn from me, fine. If they can’t, fine.
Does anyone not get a chance to show what they have accomplished so others may do the same without being accused of something?
I am not above nor below anyone. I do not like Hobby Lobby. I try to live my life in order to live life and not just merely survive.
I spoke of how I strive to do this and the pitfalls I try to avoid.
However anyone interprets my discussion on this subject is their interpretation.
My intention is to say yes, there are possibilities out there; to learn from our predecessors, to teach, discover, and improve upon ourselves.
I am not better than anyone but I am not less. I live my life because I choose to. I do not expect nor demand that anyone do what I do. I simply state how I live my life, and how I am able to do it, so that someone may benefit from my experience.
I think that discussion has a value, and my own personal goal is that I can learn what else there is in life so I can improve upon my own.
Great point, except:
Which was in reference to Caine needing a specific type of paper to earn her living. She cannot barter for it, jackass, so your point just made you look like, well, a sactimonious shit.
News flash: the Potato Famine is looooong over. It has no bearing on Caine, Hobby Lobby, or your own screwed up worldview.
And you still haven’t answered how one barters for internet access.
No, a male. A buddy of mine actually. We lived in a smallish city, but even there there was still quite a bit of racism. He told me some horror stories. I’m Hispanic and saw a bit of it myself, but it was nowhere near as bad as what he went through.
So just imagine him having to hear this white lady telling him not only that her group had it hard, but that they had it the hardest.
OurDeadSelves:
Not only can I not barter for it, I can’t get close to making it. The Arches Paper Mill in France was founded in 1492. There’s a reason their paper is still in demand. I do actually make paper, but it’s for specific things, and no, it isn’t for large watercolours.
Yeah. I wasn’t going to enter the sanctimonious oppression stakes, but part of my family dealt with serious shit too. You can say that about pretty much anyone’s family.
It’s interesting, that the ‘LeeLeeOne’ who commented here before was yakking about her therapy practice. That must have involved some interesting bartering.
Holy shit, she’s a therapist?
*sizzlepfffft!* That was my mind being blown.
Are you sure you don’t want to? There’s a certificate up for grabs, you know. :P
OurDeadSelves:
I seriously hope not. There was a LeeLeeOne who commented here fairly often (before registration was required) and sounded rational, for the most part. If this is the same person, all I can say is there must have been an overdose of some substance or possibly a serious whack to the head.
Nah, I don’t need another certificate. Besides, compared to certain members of my family, I had a seriously easy life. I didn’t go through what they did, and I wouldn’t consider demeaning their experience by taking it on as my own.*
*Those daffodils are tempting though… ;p
well, this LL1 has already mentioned “patients” earlier in this thread, so it’s probably the same one.
I’m willing to bet it means doing favors for whoever she’s mooching internet from.
yeah, that was pretty much the point the OppressionOlympics were trying to get across… well, at least that was my point. That, plus finally having a certificate of something, anything to hang on my wall.
Jadehawk:
Glad to hear it. My Tam-fu is weak because I’m not fond of hot drinks and I suffer from a distinct lack of Aussie heritage. Thankfully I did resist the siren call of the TimTam aisle by the judicious application of a Lamington.
LeeLee: People are responding negatively because of your tacit assertion that your barter lifestyle is in some way superior to a cash based one. The way to end that negativity is answer the question I’ve asked three times now:
What reasons do you have to believe that barter is better than cash and what evidence do you have to support those reasons?
Hang on guys, gonna try to nestle some blockquotes here.
Mine, too. Also, I was getting sick of hearing about the Potato Famine* and I wanted to point out how absolutely asinine it was to bring it up time and time again.
*THE DUST BOWL MADE ME THE WOMAN THAT I AM, EVEN THOUGH IT OCCURRED 50 YEARS BEFORE I WAS BORN!!!1!
Jadehawk:
Yeah, that’s my bet too. It’s bullshit she’s bartering with an ISP.
OurDeadSelves:
I believes you, Lawks, yes I do!!1!!!!1
FossilFishy:
Going by LL1’s previous posts here and her posts on HuffPo, where she goes into a bit of detail about mortgages, loans and buying her house, she hasn’t always been so high and mighty barter based. She seems to have decided that cash is a filthy dirty thing recently, even though that “philosophy” doesn’t seem to apply when she’s in a situation which requires cash.
Of course, us using cash is a totally different thing.
Totes agree. I wanted to hear LL1 say it though, just so I could make fun of her. I know, I know, sometimes I’m not a nice person.
(That’s what happens when you’ve had too much cider and not enough to eat.)
#221
“So just imagine him having to hear this white lady telling him not only that her group had it hard, but that they had it the hardest.”
I’m Irish, too, and very aware of the prejudice and horrible circumstances the Irish suffered. Here’s the thing: When you are no longer the oppressed minority, and have become part of the privileged majority, don’t complain about how oppressed you are to the current oppressed minority. I once had a teacher who complained about how much her ancestors suffered on the boat from Germany to a class that was about 1/3 Native American.
OurDeadSelves, I have the same impulse. I’m also drinking cider. Hmmmm… ;D
I was relating some of this er, discussion of LL1’s to my husband and said “hell, you think our ISP would accept trade? I’ll even learn to knit for that one!” and he about fell out of his chair laughing.
Caine: Thanks. I can see why that’d be annoying.
Hmmm, I seem to remember that there was a word for this, what was it, what was it?….hypodermic? No, Er, hypochondriac? No no. Hippocratic? Still not right…oh yes: hypocritical! That’s it.
Anyway, I’m still curious as to her reasons and evidence for her beliefs. If they’re valid her sanctimonious posturing would be understandable if no less annoying. Seems pretty unlikely she’s going to come through with some evidence though.
FossilFishy:
Oh I get that, and I share your curiosity. Several of us have been talking about our specific barter experiences on the endless thread.
Living on a pure barter system, in a city (where LL1 claims to live) would be difficult, at best. Particularly in the U.S. LL1 has not said where it is she lives, outside of ‘a city’. There are simply too many situations which would require cash, and LL1 had not said what it is she does to obtain said cash. All of this would make for an interesting discussion, however, I don’t think LL1 wants discussion. She wants a sense of superiority.
I live very rural. My ‘town’ has a population of 79, and is about the size of a postage stamp. The surrounding area is all farms. It would be possible, to a considerable extent, to live via barter where I live, but even in my situation, there are serious limits. I cannot barter with regard to electricity, water or propane. Those things require money. I cannot barter with an ISP. I could probably barter something or other for a limited amount of online time at a friend’s house, but I think that’s really pushing things unnecessarily. Besides, I like being able to be online whenever I want. So, I pay.
I also have particular medical needs, so health insurance is necessary. As far as I know, there’s no bartering for regular medical care, at least not actual medical care, involving actual doctors. I certainly can’t barter with my pharmacist for my meds. I have no doubt a person could barter for bullshit woo of some sort though.
If LL1 had not decided to show up wrapped in pretentiousness, there could have been a good discussion about barter, even though it would have nothing to do with the actual topic.
There are times when barter is reasonable and appropriate. I happen to be a decent mechanic. Later today I’ll be working on a friend’s boat engine. Afterwards he’ll take the wife and me out to supper (or din-din as LeeLee might put it).
I’ll be replacing a fuel injector on the engine. The chandlery won’t accept an offer for coffee and dessert in exchange for a new injector. Those non-bartering meanies want pieces of paper with pictures of dead presidents on them (or the momentary use of a special plastic rectangle) before they’ll part with an injector.
Sure. I’ve made things for people, worked on their computers, edited papers for them, made illustrations, baked cakes for their events, etc. I really don’t mind a favor for a favor at all.
But I really do see working for cash as a sort of barter although my previous post was snarky. I only have one life so my time is important.
My life and how I live it is not being forced upon anyone. My life and my choices are simply my choices in my life.
I am not “better” than anyone, nor am I less.
Others make their own decisions about their own lives and share their experiences.
What works and what does not work, what is do-able and what is not do-able. We can all share and benefit.
This is part of the scientific process.
Something really weird about Hobby Lobby- I’m a scale aircraft modeler, so I sometimes hit the store near my parent’s house in Arizona. Everything in the store is individually priced and there are no price scanners, and that store carries at least 250,000 separate SKUs. That means an incredible amount of inefficient labor, pricing tiny packages of beads and stuff, simply because the ownership thinks price codes are the work of Satan or some such nonsense. Seriously clowny store.
So share already. For the fifth time (I think, I’m starting to lose track): What are your reasons for asserting that your barter lifestyle is somehow better than a cash based one and what is your evidence to support those reasons?
If you can’t provide a logically consistent argument backed up by sound evidence then your assertion is simply that, a baseless assertion. And to be clear: baseless assertions are not part of any meaningful scientific process.
One of these days I’m gonna stop checking this thread.
This has been sticking in my craw for a while now. I live in a relatively small city (population ~62,000) and there’s absolutely no way that anyone who lives w/in the city limits has enough land to grow enough food to support themselves. (We don’t even have any “community gardens” that I’m aware of– there’s just no space.)
There are several farmer’s markets in the area, however (you will never, NEVER eat better beef than what is sold at the Carrot Barn), but the catch is that the farmers actually want cold hard cash for their goods, not shoddy handmade products.
So, LL1, how does one barter for internet access? You’re still avoiding our questions.
Probably much the same way a dependent child or spouse does. It really can’t be compared to off the grid living. Ok, yeah, there are people who move into caves in the desert out here and really do eat what the grow/kill. It’s crazy. Waaaay out in west Texas or in New Mexico I have definitely known of people like this.
But if you are just borrowing some one’s isp, laptop, trading some junk around for what’s around you may enjoy the community aspect of it but it really isn’t self-sustaining because you’re still dependent on the same teat. You’re just making other people walk up and squeeze it.
Joke from communist East Germany…
Someone comes to a gas station and says: “I’d like two windshield wiper blades for my Trabi.” The attendant takes a look at the Trabi and says: “That’s a fair deal”…
= = = = = = = = =
Thread won in comment 10.
= = = = = = = = =
Give up and tie the hat to your head. Wearing a heavy hat for any extended period of time is… heavy.
Black jade would be very nicely appropriate, though :-) – but I can’t imagine it’s cheap.
:-)
Come on! There are so many chemists on Pharyngula that, if you name a stone, we’ll tell you how heavy it is without having ever handled it! :-)
Granite? Let alone basalt??? North Dakota? Isn’t ND all chalk and sandstone?
“More light!”
– Goethe’s last words.
Bingo.
Perfect response :-)
Yes, by saying “we”. Duh. :-|
I gather it’s called “slam” only for the rhyme…?
Well… no. The scientific process is the application of the principles of falsification and parsimony. :-|
I have life. And, my life is what I choose.
I do not demand or require.
How I live my life is how I live my life and it can be done by anyone.
How I am able to take what my elders found beneficial into my current modern day existence, is nothing more than an idea that can be shared.
I barter for transportation to spend time on the Internet. I barter transportation to the public library where there is Internet access because I pay taxes. I have clearly stated this earlier.
Some have questioned my ability to have a practice where I treat patients. Where it is applicable, I use the same approach with my patients. If you have a desire, then establish a goal and educate yourself (no wishful thinking).
However you imply my message, I have simply stated that I have found a way to live my life, I barter and I grow and I treat and I give and I adapt and I am not perfect but I try to do my best, and my goal is to educate and be an example.
Hobby Lobby is a symptom.
also for the feeling of hot coffee suddenly explode in your mouth, I suspect :-p
Of what? Capitalism?
No -fucking- duh.
Why is this all glorious bartering lifestyle any better than directly paying for goods and services? We already know that you are not a self-reliant*, livin’ off the grid, commune dwelling hippy, so what is it?
*In fact, since you trade for transportation** and internet access and whatnot, I’d even go so far as to say you are probably less self-reliant than many of us here. But, then again, I’m not a wood worker. Maybe there’s some skill in there I’m not giving you credit for.
**Unless you pay cashmoney to take public transit. Then, for this argument’s sake, it would suit your purposes to use the right words here (not that I have any hope that you will, since you still don’t seem to know the difference between “moot” and “mute.”)
Fair enough.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what the hell you mean by this. You do however assert. Your statement was
This is a clear assertion that trading is somehow better than buying.
Yes, so?
Demonstrate that benefit otherwise this is an argument for antiquity fallacy.
Whatever, this is no demonstration of benefit.
Oh, I have a desire and a goal. It’s for you to answer the following question:
What are your reasons for asserting that a barter lifestyle is more beneficial than a cash one and what is your evidence supporting those reasons?
Because this is the sixth time I’ve asked I’m pretty sure it’s wishful thinking to expect an answer. Maybe not though, maybe you’ll help with my education yet.
You are failing to educate and your example is terrible. As demonstrated by the following clarity fail.
So go on, give it a go. Educate me, answer the question and achieve your goal.
Uh… I don’t wanna be like you.
Frankly I don’t care to be too much like my “elders” either. They survived some crazy shit, but they were… crazy as shit.