The Canadian government is planning to help a fundamentalist Christian group, Youth for Christ, to proselytize. They’ve offered to contribute several million dollars to the construction of a youth center in downtown Winnipeg, which sounds like a wonderful, useful idea…except for the fact that the group building it has this as their mission:
To impact every young person in Canada with the person, work and teachings of Jesus Christ and discipling them into the Church.
They also openly admit to their plans:
Sharing the person of Christ with every young person within our target group in Canada (5.4 million youth). This will require the development of new strategies, as well as strengthening existing efforts.
So, sure, anyone can come on down and freely use their skate park, their gym, their various services, and they don’t need to be Christian. It would be especially great if they aren’t Christian, because they will be met by a team of cheerful youth pastors who will tell them all about the glory of Jesus while they work out or play. That’s the whole purpose of the facility — not to provide a healthy recreational outlet for kids, but to corral the unconverted in one place for easy predation by a coven of kooks out to win over their minds.
Here’s another nice twist to the story, too.
Roughly one in 100 youths contacted by the organization — 17,010 out of 154,192 — “responded to the opportunity to become a Christian,” said the report, which identified “the aboriginal youth community” as a “prime area for development.”
It’s not just those cranky atheists who are outraged at the funneling of money into Christian evangelism — it’s an ethnic issue, and Youth for Christ knows it.
The Christian youth centre in a primarily aboriginal neighbourhood stirs up thoughts of historical assimilation, some First Nations leaders told councillors.
Nahanni Fontaine, director of justice for the Southern Chiefs Organization, an advocacy group for First Nations people in southern Manitoba, said giving public money to the project would be like contributing to the contemporary version of residential schools under the guise of helping youth.
“[We] saw religion used as an abusive and violating mechanism in which to assimilate aboriginal children into Euro-Canadian mainstream,” she said.
“Aboriginal people were assured that these sort of infringing practices and strategic policies would never occur again.”
Approving this proposal would just be sanctifying a “more contemporary form of the residential school experience,” Fontaine said.
That is serious stuff. People seem to have forgotten what we, Canada and the US, were doing a bit over a century ago: we were actively ripping children away from their native parents and boarding them up in schools where they were taught the White Man’s Ways, which usually involved religion in some way or another. My own university (which is celebrating its history this year) had its beginnings as a native American boarding school, run by an order of Catholic nuns. That’s not something to be proud of, but a stigma to be overcome. Why would Winnipeg want to be afflicted with a new racist black mark on their history?
Hegemony: It’s what’s for dinner.
I take it that separation of church and state doesn’t happen in Canada.
You don’t have to go that far back, PZ. There were still residential schools operating in remote communities in Canada as late as the early ’70s.
It boggles my mind how our aboriginal people still suck up religion after all the evil that has been done to them in its name.
I know of someone who volunteered for a (very successful) mentoring program with Boys and Girls Clubs of Calgary. She chose B&G Clubs very specifically because religion is kept completely out of the programs. There are B&G Clubs across Canada, though I’m not sure all have the same policy with regard to religion.
To my knowledge, there’s little formal provision that really nails this sort of thing down in law. There are free exercise clauses in the charter or rights and freedoms, that’s about it. There’s also a bit in the charter that in essence says preexisting funding arrangements for certain religious schools (mostly Catholic) isn’t abridged by the charter…
So, long story short: the only thing really preventing this sort of thing is generally convention and public opinion.
My understanding, IANAL, etc… I’m thinking what I might be missing is there might be some precedent thing whereby such funding is already interpreted as running afoul of the free exercise provision.
Regardless, this is really pretty much disgustingly mediaeval.
(/Not to mention a horrible use of public funds. Those asswipes want to convert folk to their woo, let ’em do it like all the other woomeisters do: on the backs on those they’ve already sucked in.)
(/… I’d also likes to apologize that for some reason, my verb agreement unit seem to be broken this morning. I is terribly sorry. It make things most annoying to read, I knows.)
I’m wondering if the nasty feeling that I get in the pit of my stomach when I read things like this is shared by others. Are there any of you that can read things like this and not get physically sick? Does it ever go away, or is there something about myself I have to change?
Doh Canada!
You don’t need to change. This is a positive symptom. If it goes away, then you have a problem.
nice
What is the most effective way of dealing with this? Which Minister(s) should be contacted to register a protest? Does anyone have email addresses for the appropriate departments? If so then as many people as possible should contact them. Say that you are a Canadian even if you aren’t.
Canada’s right-wing Harper government are a pretty slimy lot and are infested with religious fanatics, but they also try very hard to hide this aspect of themselves and tend to run away whenever the light shines on them.
Imagine the screams of outrage if an atheist group proposed building a free amusement park or rec center with the stated goal of telling all in attendance that their beliefs were garbage. How far would that get, even in Canada? I’d love to see elected officials’ expressions when asked for public financial backing.
Hey PZ thanks to the terrible stigma of your Uni’s past my kid(s) gets free tuition. That is a good way to work it off.
As far as boarding schools in the US Mt Edgecomb is still up and running but not mandatory and the State of Alaska is thinking about opening new ones.
By beating the demons out of them?
My mother was one of those people ripped from her family and sent to a residential school. She has never talked about it. In fact, I had to hear it from an aunt. So much of her personality now makes sense as did her toxic parenting. What they did to her was a crime and in the same way what Youth for Christ wants to do is also a crime.
We in Canada have to guard against the Americanization of our government and the tasks to which our tax dollars are purposed. That must start with keeping ignorance out of power and ideologue fundagelicals like Harper from destroying everything Canada has become.
This is a tactic that was used very successfully by the Mormons in New Zealand to recruit Maoris to their faith. No sane government should go anywhere near this. I hope the relevant First Nations representatives push back hard.
People seem to have forgotten what we, Canada and the US, were doing a bit over a century ago: we were actively ripping children away from their native parents and boarding them up in schools where they were taught the White Man’s Ways, which usually involved religion in some way or another.
Are you sure it’s been over a century that this stuff was going on?
I seem to recall a Canadian suing because his government took him from his reservation and put him into a boarding school in 1959. I think the practice lasted even longer than that (not really up on my Canadian Native American history.
Some Native Americans would also probably mention that the US federal boarding schools might have closed in the 20s (less than a century ago), but mission boarding schools still existed into the 50s. A lot of them were run by the Catholics. No surprises about what this meant for children in their schools.
Trouble is, it’s hard to look this gift horse in the mouth without looking like a politically-correct grinch “Someone wants to give us a rec centre? How can you turn that down?” Suggested response: What if it was a conservative Islamic group building it? And there would be teams of imams standing by to hand out Qurans? (Just to kids who might, spontaneously, be interested you understand)
Churches, money-lenders, and casinos hunt in packs in poor districts. They’ve all learned it’s easier to rip off the poor than the rich. Sadly, indigenous people are often the victims.
From now on, when I tell evangelist door-knockers to fuck off, I think I’ll call it “responding to the opportunity to become a Christian”.
“..Sharing the person of Christ..”
i wonder if he tastes like chicken?
What’s to stop the kids from saying: “Fuck off. I just wanna skate.”? (punctuation fail…) And what’s to stop anyone else from suggesting that’s what the kids could do? If its built with public money, they can’t kick them out, can they?
I know, I know. It shouldn’t have to be that way. But just picture a hundred kids coming there every day and telling them that repeatedly.
Someone should. The door’s open. If it gets refused while the Christian one gets accepted, the outright discrimination would be hard to ignore. Hopefully some atheist groups on Canada see this and act on it.
The shame is our current government (assisted by Christian fundamentalist groups from south of the border). They’ve been working, largely under the radar, to promote much of the fundamentalist/right-wing/science-denialist agenda:
*At the same time that they are funding this “convert the heathens centre”, they dropped funding to KAIROS, a charity operated by more liberal Christian churches working for human rights and justice, saying that they didn’t think Canadians would want tax money going to such a religious group. The real reason? KAIROS was critical of Israel’s actions in Palestine.
*Appointment of a Creationist as Minister of State for Science and Technology
*Cutting of funding to scientific research grants
*A tepid and sparse ad campaign for the H1N1 vaccine
*Abandonment of any kind of action on climate change. Stephen Harper said, before he was in office, that he thought it was all a “socialist conspiracy to raise taxes”. One of his MPs publicly said yesterday (coincidentally the same day as the Minister for the Environment was meeting with US EPA officials) that the science surrounding AGW was in doubt.
*Gutting everything to do with women’s equality (e.g. removing equality as part of the mandate for Status of Women ministry, dropping funding for Canadian Federation for Sexual Health [i.e. Planned Parenthood], pushing a “mothers and children” agenda for next year’s G8 which will deny funding for contraception & access to abortion)
Luckily, they can’t do anything about same-sex marriage rights, and are afraid to do anything restricting abortion here in Canada (aside from failing to approve RU486).
It’s sad, sad, sad. But for some reason they’re still ahead in the polls–all their opposition is fragmented among 4 other parties.
It’s actually worse. The Winnipeg City council has approved funding for the facility as well. The council meeting had 17 groups present that were opposed and 6 groups that were for it.
Unfortunately our Mayor and some councillors were more concerned with filling the empty lot on Higgins and Main than with anything else. It passed 10-4.
There were some aboriginal groups there to oppose it, but the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs was there to support it. Why would they support it? They want city support for their Governance House project. Scratching each others backs.
As well, there is no legal separation of church and state in Canada. Our political and legal system came from England were the separation is by tradition. Not very comforting.
It seems too late to stop this, but I am hoping that there is some change up in the city’s fall election.
Oh yeah. Take that Canada.
Now when one of you not-holier than thou types starts peepin’ up about us ‘mericans I’m going to SO point North and say OH YEAH, well what the fuck is that!
And then spike a copy of the Youth for Christ handbook at your feet.
That’s right.
There is no separation of church and state in Canada. At least, it’s not legislated nor is it a part of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. ‘Separation’ of church and state is by convention only.
Being a Canadian, I’m not terribly concerned by the funding that the organisation is getting; it’s common and I think a good thing that our parts of government can work together and work with non-profits in this way. I do have a problem with the likely proselytising that will go on and it’s rather clear what the organization is really intending to do with the space and that won’t sit well with many people. Still, and despite the intentions of the non-profit running it, I should think the youth centre will be mainly used secularly. It would be …unusual if it weren’t.
Assholes.
#24, I’ve seen some reports that this rec site is being built blocks from where anyone lives. Is it true?
#28, Yes, that is correct. Higgins and Main is on the Northern edge of our downtown. There is nothing but business to the South and East. There are some residences to the West, but they are closer to other facilities. The nearest big residential area would be to the North, on the other side of the CP Rail yard and tracks. Not to mention that that can be a very bust intersection during the day.
The kids would have to pass through a very rough stretch to get to and from the YFC facility. Not a very good location if you are trying to “save” at risk youth.
That brings me to another point, many people who commented in the paper said “What would you rather have them do? Join a gang or join a church.” As if those were the only options.
Sorry, I read “descipling” them into the church as “disciplining” them into the church. Laughing wildly at thoughts of those good Christians in leather gear, running around with whips and paddles, herding the youth of Canada into their building “for their own good” resulted in me having to clean coffee off my laptop. You all carry on while I try to recoup myself.
I was interested to see the stats from Y4C’s 2008 Annual Report in the sidebar of the Winnipeg Free Press article:
They’re spending $23.4 million with 1,518 “responding”. ($15,415/soul ?)
Here’s what I’d like to know: do other faith organizations whose main mission is to proselytize track cost/convert? Those are figures I’d like to see.
And now I have a vision of various religious types explaining to the Board of Deities why the cost/soul ratio is so high… and what they plan to do to improve the Return On Investment.
-Now I will not believe that there are unicorns.
I think for Mormons it’s reckoned to be 1 convert/missionary/year (I think that’s in “Under the banner of heaven” but I’ve lent my copy).
Since atheists don’t invest money in deconversions or go door-knocking, and since most survey results pretty clearly show that deconversions>conversions, we’re clearly much more efficient. That alone ought to make (fiscally) conservative governments want to invest in atheist youth centers.
CanonicalKoi #30
I’m glad you think it’s hilarious to picture Christians using whips and paddles to herd kids into the youth centre, but consider how kids in residential schools were beaten until they showed proper belief in Christ. The humour fades away.
That is a damnably poor success rate, especially when the opportunity is allegedly eternal life and happiness. Whoever is in charge of that dismal failure should be deeply ashamed, and not just because they are a Christian.
Hmmm. Gang: highly structured sociopathic authoritarian organisation, with initiation rites and strong barriers to withdrawal, often indulging in criminal or at least immoral activities to gather huge amounts of money.
Sorry, what was the question again?
As a Canadian, this bugs me. I plugged this on my blog and emailed my Member of Parliament asking what on earth they are thinking. Hopefully other Canadians will do the same.
That brings me to another point, many people who commented in the paper said “What would you rather have them do? Join a gang or join a church.” As if those were the only options.
I saw that, and I was going to ask when Manitoba merged with Alberta.
The difference between kids in a gang and kids in a church? Gang kids beat up other gang kids. Church kids go out and beat up gay kids.
I’m no fan of this either, but the charge of ‘racism’ here seems like a mistake to me: surely no person has an antecedent right to be free from attempts to persuade them to take this or that position or this or that practice, even if their culture would have something to say about the matter. It strikes me that your real objection here is either to the methods of persuasion (which you view as dishonest or sneaky in some way), or to the underlying propositions being advanced (which you view as false and silly). But I don’t see what is necessarily ‘racist’ (in any objectionable sense) in the aim of persuading someone to abandon some aspect of their culture, as such. Some aspects of some cultures no doubt should be abandoned. At any rate, I’d hope you’d agree that it certainly won’t do to privilege claims of culture over any and all criticism.
Xenithrys@#32
That must be a whole lot of rejection when they are young and often far from home. Mormon missionaries used to annoy me – now I think I feel sorry for them. The next time I’m home when a pair of them shows up, I’ll be nicer. I won’t convert, but I’ll be nicer.
Doug #4: I often hear white people say “how can those misguided African Americans/Native Americans/Aborigines/etc. suck up the religion that forced them to convert.”
They either forget or don’t realize that they (i.e. white people in general) are in the same boat. Europe was mostly pagan until the church came along to “save” them.
Canada does not even have a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Yes, there is one printed on paper, but it is virtually worthless since it contains a clause that says the governments (federal or provincial) can take away or change any of those rights and freedoms at any time.
[See clause 33, the “not withstanding” clause.]
I grew up in Winnipeg. Native kids my age were being sent to residential schools, and were abused physically, mentally and sexually. Even as a sheltered professor’s kid I knew about this, from first hand accounts. Then the abuse came out in the open in the mid-eighties as a huge scandal, and I got a lesson in the hypocrisy of “nice” adults, as they feigned horror at what had been an open secret.
The Winnipeg I left a decade ago desperately needed a youth center in the downtown core area. Main and Higgins was one of the most desolate areas in the city, only a block or two away from the main business and retail core of the city. It was also only a block or two away from the “low track”, where young native girls, as young as 10, 11, 12, were sent out to earn money. Another shameful open secret. The city’s residents and police knew that men were picking up these children for sex, but couldn’t be bothered to stop it. The local paper pointed out quite clearly what everyone knew: because these kids were native, their lives were literally worth less. There is no way this sex trade would have been permitted by the people of Winnipeg if those girls were white. (see Lyndor Renolds series in the Wpg Free Press)
While I think any youth center built should not have a specific Christian mission, please don’t be cynical about building one in the first place. Building at Main and Higgins, specifically for the native community, could be a way to rebuild that community, after all the damage done.
It isn’t just America where Manifest Destiny is still alive and well…
Sigh…
A youth center is a great thing, but not if it’s the 21st century equivalent of smallpox infected blankets and/or “free hair cuts”. This genocide that most people try to ignore, or pretend never happened, or think has stopped somehow, is still going on, and still makes anyone with a conscience sick. Excuse me while I go expel my breakfast in a most unpleasant manner…
No Gods, No Masters
Cameron
[Emphasis mine.] That is a gross misrepresentation of Section 33 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Actually, you’re just plain wrong.
The ‘notwithstanding clause’ does certainly not give any governments the right to take away or change just any of the rights and freedoms at any time (in fact, the clause deals specifically with rights). Section 33 is very specific to those sections to which the clause may be applied (namely 2 or 7-15), and it’s universal use is not to take away or change rights, but to suspend them in particular cases subject to at most a five year term, after which the right or freedom suspended will return to force unless the then elected parliament votes to renew the use of the clause for at most another five years.
The ‘notwithstanding clause’ is an important inclusion in the Charter as it protects Canadians from the force of a law which my be found to be inconsistent with the Charter being enforced indefinitely, when that law contains such a clause (as it must in order to contravene the Charter legally). Many controversial laws do include such a clause in order to protect them from the effect of the Charter. No use of Section 33 has been extended past the indicated term.
@Bill Shipley : “Canada’s right-wing Harper government are a pretty slimy lot and are infested with religious fanatics, but they also try very hard to hide this aspect of themselves and tend to run away whenever the light shines on them.”
Harper’s not a bad bloke (his wife is good friends with a friend of mine so I know him vicariously). He is a christian but he doesn’t rub it in and doesn’t give a flying fart whether you’re christian, atheist, muslim, jewish or whatever. He’s fighting an uphill battle against the effing liberals on any and all topics. In Canada our liberals are republicans in sheep’s clothing.
In this case the youth centre would probably be getting provincial funding. The premier of Manitoba is Gary Doer. They’ll probably get some funding from the city as well.
Unfortunately we don’t have separation of church and province here. We were a member of the British commonwealth and haven’t really made any changes to our government set up since we became an independent country.
Actually, the article says the funding has $3.2 million coming from the federal government if the municipal government votes in a $3.4 million contribution. I don’t know if there’s any provincial involvement.
There’s a poll on the Winnepeg Free Press site.
Should governments help fund a Christian youth centre in downtown Winnipeg?
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/polls/Should-governments-fund–84736332.html?c=y&pollSubmitted=y&oid=2&viewResults=y&mr=1&cid=8500584&pid=84736332
Whoops. Link to the poll should be
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/polls/Should-governments-fund–84736332.html
And I misspelled Winnipeg.
#46 – Sisyphus
Gary Doer is the Canadian ambassador to the USA. Greg Sellinger is the Manitoba Premier, and he said no to funding this.
@Sisyphus:
You are mis-informed.
Gary Doer is presently the US ambassador. He resigned as Premier earlier in the year.
As for Harper, I must say, to call your description “biased” would be an understatement. But getting into a Canadian party politics rant here is probably not what PZ wishes, so I’ll leave it at that.
You’ll warn them that you just pulled the rope which tips over the vat of boiling oil?
Does a youth center need an ideological bent? The article essentially says that the Christian dogma is superior to whatever native Canadians have now. I don’t think it’s a matter of religious ideals so much as socioeconomic factors.
Whoever said that the Liberal Party are wolves in sheep’s clothing have it about right. They seem to want centralized and total government where they decide appropriate behaviour and legislate it.
Canadians’ basic rights to free speech, personal safety, property and privacy are incomplete at best.
blf@#52
The house didn’t come with that feature! Maybe that’s why it seemed relatively inexpensive when we bought it.
That’s idiotic. Please explain your statement.
PZ wrote:
When a religious group is involved in just about any endeavor, there’s almost always an “except….”
Admittedly, I’m surprised that the federal government would knowingly put money into a project like this. Yes, it’s Conservative-run, and yes, there are probably several Evangelical Christians in the cabinet (including the prime minister and science minister – both of whom are young earth creationists), but I thought it would make more of an effort to appear secular.
Pat Martin used to bug me when I was living in his riding (he has a tendency for Michael Moore-style hyperbole) but I’m glad that he’s speaking out against the idea.
Much more efficient to baptize the dead.
Maybe it’s the same mindset that allows avowed feminists to remain in churches with misogynistic beliefs and practices.
Or the same mindset that gays must have when they become or remain affiliated with homophobic churches or organizations like CPAC.
I never have understood it.
In rural Canada some of the residential schools weren’t closed until the late 60’s.
But that’s an aside, we have the Canadian equivalent of a Republican government in power here. They are all for faith based funding of the arts as well.
Disturbing. There’s still a stain on the Australian psyche thanks to the state policy, up until the 1960s, of removing Aboriginal children “for their own good” and re-educating them in ways of white Christians. This led to what’s now known as the “Stolen Generation” – it was such a big issue our PM made a public & formal apology to families wrenched apart during that time. I hope Canada can look closely at what the First Nations are saying here and realise the potential damage this could do. Commonwealth & colonised nations have a duty to the people they displaced while furthering the British Empire; all too often this duty is neglected or not even acknowledged.
Aside from those concerns, I long for the day when religious people can simply be content to practise their faith & leave people of a different religion (or no religion) alone. The whole door-to-door salesman routine has really worn thin, as have the transparent ‘strings attached’ policies of so many evangelising organisations (and the knee-jerk government support which so often ooccurs!). Forgive an extreme notion, but how about some legal restrictions on evangelism? Do it in the street, do it around your clubhouse, sure, but a ban on bloody door-knockers would be very welcome. I don’t care about salesmen, but if you come to my door to ask for my soul – because you presume it’s already bound for Hell – you don’t really deserve a civil response.
Equally, I long for the day when religious groups no longer receive state support as a matter of course and must earn it on merit, like any other group. Of course in days past the only groups performing charity work and social support were religious; now we have numerous secular charities performing the same services, not to mention entire government departments. State support on merit, not on faith. Not too big an ask is it? Noone would expect automatic support for a non-religious gym & social club, why for a Christian version?
Poll is still open:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/polls/Should-governments-fund–84736332.html
“Hey kids, the first hit is free! (It’ll only cost you 10% of your pretax income for the rest of your life.)”
Having a religious institution run it wouldn’t be a huge problem if proselytizing wasn’t the stated goal for the organization in regards to this centre. I don’t like my tax money going to religious proselytizing. No one is going to stop them from opening up their own youth centre on their own dime, but to do it on the taxpayer dime is wrong.
Even if Canada had separation of church and state it doesn’t mean the government couldn’t fund this youth center. The US government hands over millions of dollars every year to faith based organizations. They’re tax exempt and they get a nice check from the feds.
Damn it! PZ beat me to the punch. I wrote this up yesterday: http://gregvalcourt.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/what-do-charity-and-ideology-have-in-common/
Not one red cent of taxpayer’s money should go to any organization whose mission is to proselytize. If they do get funding, it should be with the proviso that the center be completely secular and any pushing of religion would require repayment of the funding in full or revocation of their tax exempt status.
However, our current ReformaTory government, with their evangelical bent, would never consider imposing conditions on any fundie religious organization. On the other hand, moderates like NAIROS have their funding cut. They do not proselytize but they do a good job helping poor women and children, something Harper has suddenly decided he cares about, even though all his actions point the other direction.
#46: Harper the leader of a party harboring Christian Fundamentalists like Gary Goodyear (PZ has previously posted on him http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/03/gary_goodyear_believes_in_evol.php).
Gary Doer hasn’t been Premier of Manitoba for a few months now.
The public hearings were today. Apparently there was a lot more push-back than expected from the Native community locally.
It really is incredible. They interviewed a couple of the Councillors involved in this on CBC radio, and it seems like the majorty view is “Let’s have someone else worry about these Native kids. We have economic projects to deal with and actually doing anything is a lot of work.” They certainly don’t seem to see anything wrong with the whole conversion thing.
Hopefully the resistance will be enough, though given that this is $$$ that had to be committed this week or lost, I suspect it’ll get pushed through.
I live here in winnipeg and todoy our mayor, Sam Katz and city council just gave them 2 million. Makes me puke
As an atheist and Winnipegger, I’m pretty split on this story.
On the one hand, public funding of religion is nonsense, on the other, all of the concerns are completely blown out of proportion. If you think a Christian run skatepark is anywhere approaching the seriousness of residential schools, you are in great need of a reality check, and are actually doing a disservice to the attention that should be paid to that issue.
What’s interetsing to me, is that the Edge skatepark, run by the same organization, has been operating for years in the same area with nary a boo heard about it. How many vulnerable children (*cough*) were converted by it?
Of course, this just highlights the reality that the vast majority of people share their religious beliefs with their parents, and not skatepark owners.
But the sky keeps falling, doesn’t it? Indeed, I’m sure the space could be better used as yet ANOTHER parkade contributing nothing to the downtown core. At least this has a chance of revitalizing one of the most notorious intersections in Canada. But no, focus on the ideological outrage, because that’s all you’re good for.
Canada has an type of separation of church and state through the Charter. The Charter states that the government cannot discriminate on the basis of certain grounds (s. 15), for example, and the Eldridge case stands for the principle that the government cannot contract out of their Charter obligations. Therefore, if YFC discriminates in its hiring practices (by religious affiliation, for example) then there’s an argument to be made based on the Charter that the government is out of line.
The notwithstanding clause has only been used once. It’s considered a political hand grenade and it isn’t much of an option.
Your concern is noted.
This as a complaint is rediculous! One of the responders above said it right. It’s a good thing that the government work with all types of non-profit organizations.
Using the anger driven logic most of you present, we should stop all funding to Muslim, Catholic, Christian schools, and even the YMCA!…you know what the “C” stands for in YMCA right?
It seems it would be absolutely fine with you, that even though Darwinian and evolutionary theory is just that…theory, the state pays for programs and teachers to tell my kids that its fact!– So the government can pay for the proselytizing of Science Theory as Fact… but watch out if they help pay something YOU don’t believe in.
There are aspects of Science that are based on Faith and incomplete evidence just as much, maybe even more than most spiritual belief systems. I guess we should stop funding science programs in schools too hey? Don’t be so close minded.
And just so you know, I am part aboriginal and know many people caught up and damaged by the religious residential school systems! I bet most of you don’t even know the details of how the system was run…a very very different thing than proselytizing! very different!
Lets keep facts, facts, and theory, theory…k guys?
I should add that our athiest friend, UMCScience said it very well!—kudos!
FactorTheory #73 wrote:
Evolution is both theory and fact: it’s a well-supported explanation that earned the scientific consensus the hard way: through work and evidence. It’s not a “faith opinion” that people get to choose to believe IN .. like religion.
If charities are going to get government funding, then they can’t use other people’s money to spread their faiths. You’ve already agreed that your money can be used to promote the teaching of good science. But you’re obviously not the best judge of what is good science, and what isn’t.
You see, the system of science is much more rigorous than religion, where everyone is their own best judge of what is god, and what isn’t.
And just in case you have some bent against Canada, how about checking this…plenty of these stories out there to!!
US State Department funding Mosque building in Bulgaria!
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2004/10/us-state-department-funding-mosque-building-in-bulgaria.html
Okay…I think I made my point.
FactorTheory:
Which was what? That other kids do wrong stuff too?