I don’t know about you, but I sure am reassured that our soldiers are well-equipped since I heard that one weapon supplier has been enchanting rifles with secret references to the Bible. It gives a soldier special powers to be thinking, “he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” as he peers down the barrel of a gun, preparing to blow the brains out of a Muslim. And don’t you think the Muslim would appreciate knowing that his killer was imbued with such saintly sentiments?
If Jesus had actually existed, that’s probably exactly the purpose he would have intended for his philosophy, too — for reassuring the consciences of arms manufacturers that they are promoting the cause of peace.
But that biblical god is no match for iron chariots!
I wonder if there is extra credit (or firepower) if the soldier is wearing his/her magic underwear?
I forget — does inscribing the sights make the rifle +1, or just masterwork?
Is Lion IRC behind this? If you recall, he had the “Armour of God”. Treble these threats with with the feared “Helmet of Disinformation” and you have quite a warrior in the making (like a ninth-level Paladin at least).
Also, calling the incoherent ravings of the biblical Jesus a “philosophy” is at the very least charitable. Do I catch a whiff of accomodation?
That’s why we need ID, because mere “materialism” won’t cut it on the battlefield.
If only we could use magic openly!
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Having (laser) sights at all makes a weapon +1. It’s the smart link (through a connection to the user’s brain) which makes them +2.
Conversely, having an inscription with words of power just makes someone into a golem (ie old world zombie).
Damned. Miserable. Lies.
Clearly an example of someone who hasn’t read the bible and doesn’t understand American history.
Doesn’t the Bible say “Blessed are the piece makers”?
My rifle has a bible verse,
As spoken by my righteous Lord;
It comforts me to hear Him say:
“I did not come to bring peace, but a sword”
Oh. That explains the fundies. I always thought they were just meat robots.
What happens if the Moslems start using verses from the Koran? Bible versus the Koran and may the best magic spells win.
FWIW, aren’t magic spells just witchcraft?
@harry tuttle #8: But that particular verse got scratched out ages ago.
Holy Fuck, they think D&D is real.
But do they inscribe “Gott mit uns” on their belt buckles?
Reading the article, it appears the founder of Trijicon, who started putting magical spells on the rifle sights, died in a plane crash in 2003.
Too bad, the plane didn’t have the same magical words on it.
The company mission statement is genius: “Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom.”
Hallelujah, all praise the Mighty Dollar
I liked this comment the best because it’s so self righteous and trying to illuminate those pesky liberals when it’s obvious the commenter has never read any of Jefferson or Madison’s even moderately heretical writings:
“For those who think this is the “best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country,” you don’t know what that phrase means. First, it’s not in the constitution — anywhere! Second, Thomas Jefferson wrote that phrase as a means to comfort a religious sect in his constituency that was concerned that government would impose control of religious beliefs upon them.Separation of church and state is NOT part of our national constitution, period. Liberals have perpetuated this lie for years and it has absolutely no legal merit whatsoever. Read the writings of our founding fathers to see what it really means, and that it is intended to protect religious belief from government — not the other way around!Remember that next time liberals want to threaten the Catholic church (or other religious groups) who refuse to advocate immoral behaviors or practices. America is the land of freedom OF religion (so says the first amendment), not freedom FROM religion (not stated anywhere in the constitution).”
“Know Jesus, Know Peace?” No! Jesus, No Peace!
This is not as funny as it seems. Hatemongers and terrorism recruiters are rubbing their hands. Imams will yell this from the towers. Thousands more will flock to their banners.
This idiocy will get yet more civilians and soldiers killed.
The people who had this superstitious shit inscribed on the rifles are the same people who want the world to end in the Holy Mother Of All Battles, and deliberate provocations like this further their cause.
Thanks fundie fucktards, once again. Bravo, religion.
Wonder what effect it has. Does it make them +1 weapons or +1 Holy weapons.
Actually, it reminds me more of Warhammer 40K.
It always makes me feel kinda weird when I purchase a product and then discover it’s subtly promoting something I don’t necessarily endorse. (In n’ Out burger, frex, has scripture references on the bottoms of their cups and sometimes on their paper wrappers for burgers and fries.) It’s like….unexpected spam.
While I find the juxtaposition of the scripture and the weapon to be a little weird at first glance, further thought confirms that this is only an extension of the religious thought intertwining dogma and war. There’s an entire line of “faith-promoting rumours” involving the word of god literally as armour: stories of soldiers in various wars whose lives were mysteriously saved because they had a Bible or a Book of Mormon or some other “holy” book to hand in their uniform. Inevitably the bullet stops halfway through the book, indenting a particularly poignant scripture, usually one about putting your faith in God, or being girded about with the armour of righteousness. So this seems a willful extension of that mythos. Somebody somewhere will no doubt have their life saved, and attribute it to their scripture inscribed scope.
…
Speaking of the marriage of religion and weaponry, I always wondered why so many Christians were so sanguine about wearing a cross as personal adornment. You have to do a bit of twisty thinking to get around the idea that you are wearing a symbol of execution and torture around your neck.
They never talk about the times when the bullet goes all the way through the bible and all the bible fragments get stuck on the organs and/or cause a stroke.
SEF #6 – No, a golem is not an old world zombie. For starters, Golems are made of clay, are in the Judaic tradition and if anything are a parable of how our own mechanism and creations can do damage. equal organic natural born.
A zombie on the other hand is a deceased human being. Clay and man made
Why didn’t they go straight for a discarnation spell? Half-measures will never work against these Muslin terrists!
To add to my bleak prediction above, it may well happen that members of the Afghan forces refuse to train on or use these weapons. This might require replacements without the inscriptions, costing the US taxpayer more $$$.
Provocation, divisiveness, waste of resources, reinforcement of conflict. Religion has always been good at these, and profited abundantly on the resulting misery.
WWJSO
(What would Jesus squeeze off?)
@#3 -that depends on whether or not your’re exalted with Jerusalem.
I think should bring back square bullets as originally proposed for use in the Puckle Gun. Apparently those suckers will really hurt the Muslims and convince them of the “benefits of Christian civilization”.
Man what a bunch of loons……
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Next up will be bullets with crosses incised on the front. Not only will this secure the help of jesus but the cross makes them fragment when they hit something.
They will be known as Canaanite killers.
Because xianity is a religion of peace, love, and tolerance and he loves everyone.
Hello PZ. Long time reader, 1st time poster. I’m a lifelong atheist who also happens to have been a Soldier. The founder of Trijicon has put these stupid little codes on his ACOG scopes for a long time. The government buys these scopes simply because they are the best. I carried one on my rifle during my first Iraq deployment and a Soldier couldn’t have asked for better equipment. That being said, it’s highly unlikely to me that the government even knew of these codes.
Fucking hunters roll need on everything…
yeah, i don’t think jesus existed either. i think they ought to be true to their religion and put the old testament passages. it would make more sense.
And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, “O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.” And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths, and carp and anchovies, and orangutans and breakfast cereals, and fruit-bats and large chu…
“Hello PZ. Long time reader, 1st time poster. I’m a lifelong atheist who also happens to have been a Soldier”
But, But, my religious friends tell me there is no such thing as a foxhole atheist.
Its important to keep the “cross” in “crosshairs”
FTA:
No thanks. I’ve got the light of Earendil, and it says right here on the package: “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
Guaranteed to keep away giant spiders as well. Let’s see the bible do that.
But, But, my religious friends tell me there is no such thing as a foxhole atheist.”
Yeah, every once in a while I heard that, but I assure everyone who reads this blog that there are many of us. Surprisingly, I encountered very little prejudice in my 5 year Army career. I’m also a member of MAAF.
“Doesn’t the Bible say ‘Blessed are the piece makers’?”
I hate, by which I mean adore, punners.
The US is the customer; They should demand the bible codes be filed off.
Reminds me of Mark Twain’s War Prayer.
AdamK @13:
You win the thread and the internets.
As are humans in the belief system of many creationist Christians! The “born-again” types of Christian are even more zombie-like.
Along with the prayer scope, they should also give the prayer cross. (Warding, the damned commercial will start to play when you follow the link.)
Jason, you are not the first atheist soldier who has dropped in. For a while, there was a person who went by the moniker of brokensoldier. Sadly. he has not been around in a while, many people do miss him.
Pixelfish:
Some comedian, can’t recall his name, made a joke about this. It was something along the lines of, when jesus comes back, he won’t want to see people wearing crosses any more than a reanimated JFK would want to see people wearing little high-powered rife trinkets around their necks.
Instead of grenades, they can throw vials of holy water.
“But do they inscribe “Gott mit uns” on their belt buckles?”
No, in fact my experience was quite secular, even during deployments. There were a some zealots, but they were few and mostly ignored.
So any other former military atheists on here willing to sue trijicon with me? Instead of money we could just try to get them to replace all the sights without bible enchanted one. Had I been aware of their deceit I would have taken my RCO off and used the iron sights.
As if any enemy group don’t have equally powerful, magical incantations of their own – often from the same ancient text.
Tulse: I was thinking about the Sepoy Rebellion just before you posted. (Is the focus of one of my favourite books.) It’s the textbook example of colonialism riding roughshod over the cultural mores and reaping the whirlwind. (For those who did not click on Tulse’s link, the rebellion was ignited over the grease used in the cartridges of the time–it was made of pig and cow fat, thus pissing off both the Muslims and Hindus under British command. Hindus felt they had lost caste, while Muslims regarded themselves as defiled. And since this was coming off of a time when the non-British people were losing their perquisites for cooperating with the Brits, things were a bit flammable. Needless to say, they didn’t just refuse to use the weapons. Whole statess went up in flames, and in Kanpur, women and children were massacred.)
@ raven #10:
I bet the arms manufacturers haven’t done that crucial comparison test over which religious tradition of many (ie not just that false Christian vs Muslim dichotomy) improves performance – if any at all! It should be a double-blinded one too – ie the people firing the weapons and those marking them shouldn’t be allowed to know what the hidden inscription is.
Legion, that was Bill Hicks. And that bit was fucking hilarious.
#44:
Bill Hicks
don’t know what you’re all complaining about
i would love to have a weapon with the ezekiel 25:17 inscribed, it would be awesome
Christina Martin’s “God Trumps” might be a good guide for rifles inscribed with koranic references vs. jesusbible references:
http://newhumanist.org.uk/1915/god-trumps-part-i
As for arms manufacturers (or scope manufacturers in this case) you can bet they’re peaceful folk. As the usual gang of idiots wrote in an ancient MAD publication (“The Riflewoman”), “Ain’t no one more peaceful than a dead man, son.”
I don’t see anyone at Trijicon making claims that those little “codes” will cause the scopes to be better aiming devices, or the weapon they’re attached to being more accurate because of the biblical reference.
But don’t let that stop you from complaining back at them. I have to say though, that I’ve used their aiming devices, and they’re quality items.
I’m not sure I’d buy one now, given the weirdness factor. If a competitor had an equally good product that did not have JN3:16 or whatever stamped on it.
Finally, would you stop buying bread from a baker because you discovered he mumbles nonsense over it before sliding it into the oven ?
“i would love to have a weapon with the ezekiel 25:17 inscribed, it would be awesome”
That’s funny right there.
My reply to the atheists in foxholes statement is always “Of course there are no Atheists in foxholes, that because we’re out repelling the enemy assault instead of praying for (insert religious deity)to do it for you.”
I’m not so sure about magic weapons but magic defenses against weapons tend not to work so well. During the Boxer Rebellion, the Boxers believed prayer and meditation would make them immune to bullets (not so much). The native American Ghost Dances were designed to make the warriors bullet-proof (that didn’t work out either). Presumably “Christian” bullets could penetrate those pagan defenses.
I don’t think anyone was saying that they made such claims. Instead…
That.
Forget guns with bible verses man, I want a 50-foot tall mecha that displays “Cast in the name of God, ye not guilty” on the control panel when you start it. Do you think these guys can hook me up like that?
@Raven: Byzantine, Roman, or some other type of cross?
Hey PZ, another long-time reader but first-time poster here to tell you that I read your blog daily for delicious biological nuggets and the occasional atheist rant. You consistently impress me, Sir.
Hilariously ironic side-note:
The banner ad currently showing at the top of the page is one for “The Difference is Jesus” (www.thedifferenceisjesus.com). I wonder if these guys realize where their advertisement dollars are going?!
It was the first thing that went through my head after reading the post, but Tulse beat me to it:
We had the bible-beater in “Jesus Camp” pray for her computer to work. Was she praying to Yahweh, or the Machine God of the Adeptus Machinicus?
I’m not sure that’s a proportionate example. The US military does not benefit by having xtain language/symbols/codes on its weaponry when engaging in activities abroad, especially in muslim countries. Also, as I understand it, the US government is to remain neutral about religion. Having this stuff on US issue equipment is showing preference for xtianity.
I rather like the idea of the “arc of the covenant” leading the army into battle against whomever is unlucky enough to live near, (oil, diamonds, platinum, gold, etc.) or lives in a place where the leaders of the day are not buying enough US products.
I can see the arc as an improvment to the rifle and misile technology. the threat might go “…or I will open my box” what did they keep in that thing. Sounds pretty scary to me. The fatal flaw is that I dont want to be the guy who opens the box because all people are the same species so how does the gold box know who to get. I think this box in the modern world in the television and that the world is paralised by reality shows. and while the world sleeps little people sneek around grabbing more power for their cause…what ever that may be.
Wake up and look around start living without fear
What?
DLC wrote:
Maybe not the manufacturer directly, but they have indicated that the markings obviously have a religious point to make. Let’s not forget that these sights will end up (eventually) in the hands of Muslim soldiers that are supposed to be our allies. The implications are noted above. And last, let’s not overlook this little gem from the original article:
Did anyone else find it odd that they threw “Mikey” into:
…Michael “Mikey” Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.
Isn’t the whole inclusion of diminutives thing one of those passive-aggressive tactics to undermine an opponent?
“The Rifleman is a man of peace.”
“So why do you carry a rifle?”
“More room for notches.”
Tulse and pixelfish – I do not have time to write now to address this fully, but sorry that I cannot let the simplistic Answers.com/Wikianswers citation stand. It is a far too simple answer to a complex question and is not really accurate. Wikipedia even has a better entry than the Wikianswer one. The British Empire has a lot to answer for in India and around the world, but let us stick to reality. Briefly, there was never any proof that the Enfield cartridges were greased with anything other than wax. The story was put out that it was greased with animal fats to break castes and apparently it was only a story. The cartridge refusal was badly handled by a moronic commander and previously loyal troops ended up in a mutiny. xtian proselytizing was a far more pernicious issue with the Sepoys and this led them to think their castes were to be broken.
The citation also gives the impression that all of India rose in revolt – not true. Many troops stayed loyal as did many of the local rulers. Bengal, Bombay and Madras saw very little trouble. Like I said above, the British Empire has a lot to answer for and the Mutiny should have been taken as a sign by Imperialists that they needed to change. But please, let us use good history, not slogans, and not over simplify complex issues.
Climbing down off of soapbox and off to PT. Back later for any firestorms this ignites.
Ciao y’all
“Isn’t the whole inclusion of diminutives thing one of those passive-aggressive tactics to undermine an opponent?”
He prefers to be called Mikey. MRFF is a foundation that fights the good fight.
I’m not so sure about magic weapons but magic defenses against weapons tend not to work so well. – Romeo Vitelli
In 1991 I spent some time in KwaZulu-Natal, as part of an unsuccessful attempt to make a living as a freelance journalist. There was a low-level civil war going on between Inkatha and the ANC. Many “sangomas” (traditional healers / witchdoctors) were selling “muti” (magic / medicine) purported to deflect bullets. You’ll be surprised to learn that this didn’t work, but of course, there was always some excuse – the ritual hadn’t been done quite right, the person treated had had sex too recently… Moreover, the method used to apply the muti was to cut the patient with a razor blade and rub the muti in. The blade was not, of course, sterilised between patients. I suppose intravenous injection would have been an even more efficient way of spreading HIV…
Maybe they should also inscribe the bullets with Austin 3:16
Like I said above, the British Empire has a lot to answer for and the Mutiny should have been taken as a sign by Imperialists that they needed to change. – JeffreyD
To an extent, it was: the following year (1858), the East India Company, which had ruled India up to then, was dissolved, and the “British Raj” in the strict sense – rule by “the Crown” i.e. the Indian Civil Service – replaced it.
It is definitely a simplified answer, although note that it is explicitly talking about the proximal cause of the rebellion, and not all the issues leading up to it.
I’ll grant you all that (although no source I have found confirms that animal fats weren’t used, merely that it is unknown as to whether they were). But, with that said, what does the incident suggest about the wisdom of actually putting Christian-related markings on weapons used in a country populated by Muslims, and where many of said Muslims are supposedly allies, and where charges of “crusade” have already been made?
Again, I’ll re-iterate, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
JeffreyD: Thanks for the correction. I wasn’t going with Tulse’s link but my admittedly sketchy sources were the fictionalised Far Pavillions by M.M. Kaye and the wikipedia entry for the Sepoy Mutiny. I did also note that it was but one factor, since there was also other disenfranchisement issues going on as well. I knew that not all of India had gone up, that the revolt stayed clear of many of the Eastern Indian states, and I did not mean to imply that the whole of India was swept up in it. (There’s a handy map at Wikipedia showing various states involvement levels…and much of the problems were in states near Afghanistan.) It definitely was more complex than what I had said, and I apologise for the sloppy phrasing and broad generalisation.
However, somebody earlier had wondered if this would lead to Afghans (or Muslims) refusing to use the rifles altogether, and if the rumours at the time and later about the rifle cartridges wouldn’t stop Afghans from using them against the British, or anybody else, it seems highly unlikely that scriptures on scopes would either.
for non bible scholars:
zeke says: And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them. (kj)
Thanks Janine and Moggie.
So they’re sayin that Americans should participate in Biblical style genocide?
Well, it is cosmicallly stupid.
The Moslem religious fanatics are every bit as superstitious as the Xian ones.
Trijicon will just have to put Koranic, Vedic, Jewish, Wiccan, and other religious codes on their scopes. Cthulhu knows what they will use for agnostics, Deists, and atheists. Hmmmm, well maybe they can stamp some of them with pictures of Cthulhu.
“Golem Golem Golem, I made you out of clay…”
“So any other former military atheists on here willing to sue trijicon with me? Instead of money we could just try to get them to replace all the sights without bible enchanted one. Had I been aware of their deceit I would have taken my RCO off and used the iron sights.”
As badass as Simo Hayha is…
You know, I wouldn’t mind a biblical verse on my gun, if I were a soldier. But it’d have to be Ezekiel 23:20. Because really, why shouldn’t my rifle make me laugh?
“There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.”
I’m no Cuttlefish but…
Our native sons with Jesus guns,
Shout ‘Rangers lead the way!’,
Unleashed upon the Middle East,
To bring the last Crusade.
The Book in hand, you ask a man,
To ‘Be All You Can Be’,
while Jesus waits behind the gates,
The good word’s ‘Weapons Free!’
The Christian right demands you fight,
And none shall spare the rod,
When Rapture comes, the biggest guns,
Will bring us near to ‘God’.
The sad thing is, I can see my little ditty being used FOR the evangelicals…
This is my bible
This is my gun
This one’s for killing
And so is this one
I saw this on Rawstory http://rawstory.com/2010/01/bible-code-arms-christian-radio/
Two things really struck me:
Trijicon’s Munson dismissed the concerns of Weinstein’s group [of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation] by saying it comes from a group that is “not Christian,” ABC News reported.
What does being christian or not christian has to do with the legitimacy of their concerns?
“I always consider whether my optics are manufactured by Christians or heathens,” writes commenter Brandon. “Christians have a much better track record when it comes understanding and promoting the quality scientific research necessary to give us an edge on the battlefield than companies run by atheists.”
I don’t want to go into battle with Brandon. The guy is a bit delusional. I’d like to know how he knows the religious affiliation of who makes his sites and where he gets the idea that christians are better at quality scientific research.
As for the idea of suing them so they’ll make a variety without a bible quote, I’d forget it. Considering how little US law means to them I have no doubt that any sites for those who are not christian would be defective.
“The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he, who in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.“
Finally, would you stop buying bread from a baker because you discovered he mumbles nonsense over it before sliding it into the oven ?
not a valid analogy
more correctly, “would you buy a loaf of bread that had scripture etched on it?”
answer:
nope.
Damn it, it is the bad mother fucker!
Can the bread be used to kill people with different beliefs?
There’s two different ways this could play out. A US military rifle scope is, of course, US property. So either those pieces of US property are an open forum or not. If not, Trijicon must provide new verseless scopes at their expense. The other possibility is that US military equipment must be open to advertising from all viewpoints.
So what do WE want to have inscribed on a tank?
And can the Navy be required to mount Festivus Poles on all warships?
OK, I’ll play. A picture of Cthulhu.
Wow…
I have used ACOG’s for a couple years now. I never noticed this before…now I feel the urge to go down to the arms room and check all our sights and see if it is on all of them or just some of them. Tough spot to be in though, while I’m an atheist, they really are quality sights. I’ll look into this during the week and come back and post more information when I get it. I have never heard anyone talk about this though so I don’t know how widespread the information has been spread before now.
easy:
1. use a file, file off offensive crap.
2. tell company they will lose their military contracts unless they stop doing that shit.
done.
…3. bill company for time and expense of altering sites to fit regulation.
Laen, they’ve been on there a while. All of our ACOGs had the codes. They’re hard to see if you don’t look for them.
@Ichthyic #88…if the bread were crusty and delicious, the baker could scribble “Antiochus Epiphanes is an Accomodationist Splitter”* all over it and I would buy it happily, and eat it warm with butter and good coffee. It’s hard to get good bread where I live.
*I suppose it would have to be a baguette, but you get the point.
Antiochus: I might buy them personally, but my choices aren’t bound by the Establishment Clause
How does the company expect this to work? I mean, what is the exact method by which the magic works here? Does having a verse number work just as well as having the whole verse? Aren’t the divisions of the Bible books into chapters and verses fairly recent and completely arbitrary? Does having an entire verse work at all, anyhow? Isn’t this getting awfully close to having graven images, and to worshipping the creation–the Bible–instead of the Creator? And what if the soldier is an atheist? Or if a different flavor of Christian?
How the hell did the military not notice the markings? Aren’t there entire books of specifications just for purchasing things like ashtrays? How does a batch of rifles sights get through the system with various useless numbers cluttered on them?
If I can live with the offense of shooting another human being with a weapon, I could give a damn about what is written on it, anti-establishment clause or not. And that’s not to say that it’s not worth being concerned about what is written on a rifle. But given what the rifle is used for, the inscription seems relatively unimportant
It’s hard to get good bread where I live.
sounds like a career in baking might be profitable?
*I suppose it would have to be a baguette, but you get the point.
how about this point:
you haven’t for a minute considered what supporting such behavior with your dollars entails.
you tend to minimalize it as trivial, when i could easily make the argument that it is far from it.
The kind of thinking exhibited by this company is the sort that would quote bible verses on nuclear weapons with the confidence that if they were used only evil non-Christians would be killed.
Indeed, it absolutely is unimportant. That’s not the point. It’s a larger issue of the government showing preference for a religion or religiosity. We are a secular nation and we have a secular military for very good reasons. Accept that other nations may want to destroy/conquer using war, and you have to accept that, in defending one’s self, deadly force may be necessary. That’s just life. And I’m not commenting on the current state of affairs America finds itself in. That’s just a mess IMO.
“If I can live with the offense of shooting another human being with a weapon, I could give a damn about what is written on it, anti-establishment clause or not. And that’s not to say that it’s not worth being concerned about what is written on a rifle. But given what the rifle is used for, the inscription seems relatively unimportant”
Maybe it is unimportant. But I doubt it; Judging by the comments of some (On other blogs), it actually is being taken as religion helping in the war. This specific version, where it’s on our equipment, and thus, implicitly endorsed by the governent? Isn’t going to help when Extremist Imams point to it as proof that this truly is a holy war Islam must win at all costs.
Is this actually conclusive proof that they’re correct? No, not by a long shot (Badum-pish). But it’s the sort of thing that’ll convince stupid people it’s true (See: THIS IS A WAR FOR JESUS style comments on Accurate Shooter)
These people make me deeply ashamed to be a Christian. It’s funny – there’s never any time when atheism, or at least agnosticism, seems quite so attractive as when people who claim the title of ‘Christian’ are doing things like this. … or talking at all, to be honest, if they’re conservatives.
connor.hall sez:
Aha – another liar for Jebus! May I point out that is impossible to have freedom of religion without having freedom likewise FROM religion?
These people make me deeply ashamed to be a Christian.
sometime, you might want to put together a list of things that would normally make one ashamed to be associated with a specific group.
I think you will find that list to be quite large when applied to “being a Christian”.
*shrug*
How about the inverse? If said supplier offered the same quality equipment at correct price, and had a logo that incorporated a pentagram, would said supplier ever get a contract for the US Military?
I say, I said one too many saids.
Steve: thanks for the Big O reference. Loved that show.
Electric Monk’s Horse: You win this thread! I’d have to go with renaming the F-35 JSF the “Darwin.” Or insist we commission an aircraft carrier as the U.S.S. Beagle.
But a Cthulhu tank does make me pretty happy…
And how could this have been (over looked) for so long? Surely, the ‘Cleutus’ effect should have taken hold. “Sarge, lots of these scopes have the same serial number on ’em … ”
/ apologies to any Cleuti present.
PZ: You can’t blow someone -elses- brains out whilst staring down the barrel of your gun.
#113
I think what you’re referring to is staring up the barrel.
From a shooter’s perspective, when referring to objects in front of the shooter, those objects are said to be down-range. So, looking down the barrel is meant to say looking down-range, as opposed to lookin in the barrel, or up-range.
#108
The list has grown distressingly long of late.
Is it really too much to ask of these ‘Christians’ that they just shut up and love each other already, and love their neighbors, and love their enemies, and treat others how they would want to be treated, and stop making asses of themselves?
*sighs*
He was staring down the barrow of a loaded gun
Just to see where the bullets come from
“Separation of church and state is NOT part of our national constitution, period. Liberals have perpetuated this lie for years and it has absolutely no legal merit whatsoever. Read the writings of our founding fathers to see what it really means, and that it is intended to protect religious belief from government — not the other way around!Remember that next time liberals want to threaten the Catholic church (or other religious groups) who refuse to advocate immoral behaviors or practices. America is the land of freedom OF religion (so says the first amendment), not freedom FROM religion (not stated anywhere in the constitution).””
You’re an idiot, and let me start with your last claim first.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.
So, no, actually, it never says “You have freedom of religion”. It *means* that, but it doesn’t *say* that. It also *means* you are free FROM religion, because Congress (and the states, post 14th Amendment) are not allowed to support (Respect) any particular religion, nor stop the rest of us from doing so. Individual congressional MEMBERS may, of course, but they do so without the weight of that body.
And since you mentioned the founding fathers, Madison and Jefferson in particular (But hardly solely) really, really did not like religion intruding on government. I think I can even find some of those letters!
Oh, a thousand pardons, conor.hall. You were referencing a comment of stupid, not making one. I had assumed your post was eated because of a mispelling in the later bit.
Rutee,
That’s some legal mind you got there. Now, how about you explain why your idiot ass is trolling this website rather than sitting alongside John Roberts and Scalia on the SCOTUS. My theory is that your a fucking moron of the highest order.
@Icthyic and Rutee,SHoD: Of course you are both right. This is a violation of the constitution, and therefore illegal, and therefore important.
Again, it was dumb of me to trivialize the violation. However, the clusterfuck that is our military situation abroad has induced a kind of myopic outrage in me that makes other matters seem trivial, if on an irrational level. I find myself in constant consideration of what supporting that behavior entails. At best, it renders my mood pessimistic. Nonetheless, irrationality is irrationality and should provide no basis for argument.
FWIW: Now Raw Story is reporting that Trijicon sponsors God’s Great Outdoors, a radio ministry for Christian hunters. http://rawstory.com/2010/01/bible-code-arms-christian-radio/
BS
Link to God’s Great Outdoors.
BS
“That’s some legal mind you got there. Now, how about you explain why your idiot ass is trolling this website rather than sitting alongside John Roberts and Scalia on the SCOTUS. My theory is that your a fucking moron of the highest order. ”
Aw, poor thing has its feelings hurt still, don’t it? It’s okay, I’ll try to be less mean now.
I don’t suppose you have a substantive argument, History Punk? Or is that too much to expect of you?
Also, Scalia’s hilarious, but I’m afraid I would have to decline an invitation to sit alongside the Court Jester at any sort of informal gathering.
“@Icthyic and Rutee,SHoD: Of course you are both right. This is a violation of the constitution, and therefore illegal, and therefore important. ”
To be perfectly honest, if we weren’t fighting terrorism based on extremist islam that has a cosmic good/evil worldview, I would be willing to backburner this, relatively speaking. But it empowers the rhetoric of our current active enemies, so I would really, really, really like to deal with it sooner rather then later. And while it may be irrational, I can see the.. logic? behind “We’re already shooting them, you’re not helping it by that much changing words on the guns”.
The theory of the regulars to this blog is that you are the fucking moron of the highest order. And you keep proving it almost every time you post.
“Praise The Lord and pass the ammunition.”
Oh, that reminds me. How the hell do you do block quotes? They look nicer.
<blockquote> text </blockquote>
For the life of me, I can’t figure out what Rutee said that may have garnered this response. Really? I am obtuse, but the source of this sentiment is not at all apparent to me.
Could someone ‘splain?
Is anyone else anticipating the best mythbusters episode ever?
We could even extend the ‘blasphemy special’ to which holy books are bullet proof. We could use a phone book as a control and probably found a new religion based around the moral philosophy of professional grade carpet cleaning.
B
any reference to ‘THOU SHALL NOT KILL’ ? judging from comments left on the orginal ABC site, most seem to be in favour. Am I the only one to see the parallel between Islamic countries and where these Americans want their country (under their god) to be? There are very good reasons to separate church and state. Some smart lawyers are going to be rich on this one.
Since this thread contains the words “zombie” and “golem” I think most of you are dodging the obvious question:
Cage fight. Zombie. Golem.
Who wins?
@SEF: Whoo! First try here.
Antiochus Sez:
Ah, that’s because it isn’t apparent at all. He’s just mad at me for shooting down his “Merika is a Good Empire and proves Imperialism isn’t bad” argument in a previous thread. If someone more randomly confronted me though, I’d attribute it to my own arrogant demeanor, but that’s not the case here.
SD sez:
Ehh… I don’t think so, but I’m an insufferable optimist. I think it’s just poor luck in who showed up.
Hm. I thought I deleted the bread analogy part of my original reply. It wasn’t my intention to include that. (wrote it, thought better of it, thought I block-deleted it. guess I need more caffeine in the mornings. )
Like I said — all other things being equal I’d plunk down money for an aiming device that did not include biblical references.
As for what to write on my tank – “Surrender now”
might be a good idea.
Tulse and pixelfish, I need to apologize. My initial response to the post about the Indian Mutiny was curt and pedantic and not particularly helpful to the overall conversation. The last few weeks have not been good and I let frustration boil up in a place where it was not needed.
Ciao
Golem definitely. Zombies aren’t smart enough to remove the chem/erase the symbol, and biting and clawing what’s essentially a giant clay statue isn’t going to work all that well. Meanwhile the golem’s strong enough to splatter the zombie to so much pulp, and that’s assuming none of the other crazy golem powers that appear in mythology are present.
Perhaps they should inscribe “What would Jesus do?” in the sights… might make a few thing twice about pulling the trigger.
Oh okay more commentary :
If I ever go into the weapons making business, I plan to use a hallmark of the following design:
A teapot of traditional shape with a handle to the left and an s – shaped spout to the right. superimposed in the teapot, a whirlwind. surrounding the teapot, a 7 pointed star.
Well. . . it’s a tempest in Russell’s teapot.
It should. In fact, it should make you ashamed to be an American just as it does pretty much everyone with an IQ above room temperature.
Before going in and making a disaster in the Middle East, the bungling nits of America’s military fought very hard in the PR campaign/run up to keep this war from being seen or thought of as some sort of holy war. This completely destroys that, and it’s clear a large heap of our military now wants this to be a Christianity versus Islam nightmare. Unfortunately, a lot of rational, free-thinking soldiers are going to get dragged along because they were foolishly duped into believing that they were somehow defending America.
Menyambal #99
Nothing in government specifications says a manufacturer can’t put a part number or lot code on equipment. So long as the equipment meets the government specification, the manufacturer can put whatever they please on it.
When I was in a submarine ever so many years ago the cross-connect valve for the main steam system was made by the Hammel Dahl company. It was a big valve, almost a foot tall, and on the valve body in one inch high letters was “HAMMEL DAHL G130.” Nobody ever considered filing that off.
You have to be careful with tanks. As Bill Mauldin explained: “A moving foxhole attracts the eye.”
No problem at all, JeffreyD. It’s the Internet — everyone (including myself) is curt and pedantic.
I’ve bought this bread before. I was curious. It’s, um, not inedible.
A.Noyd: I’ve had that bread too! It requires chewing, a property I require in my breads. Damn good!
BS
Perhaps this is the kind of morality that creationist want.
Now a resident of E. Texas, I have had dreams of the bread from Wheatfield’s in Lawrence KS.
Can’t a cowboy get even a hard-roll up in here?
I wonder how many US firearms and accessories firms have religious weirdness involved with them. One example is handgun maker Kahr Arms, which despite its vaguely German sounding name is actually the brainchild of Kook Jin Moon aka Justin Moon, son of Unification Church founder Sun Myung Moon. The company is owned by Unification Church holding firm Saeilo Corporation
“The theory of the regulars to this blog is that you are the fucking moron of the highest order. And you keep proving it almost every time you post. ”
And depending on which test scores you consult, they might be right.
“Ah, that’s because it isn’t apparent at all. He’s just mad at me for shooting down his “Merika is a Good Empire and proves Imperialism isn’t bad” argument in a previous thread. If someone more randomly confronted me though, I’d attribute it to my own arrogant demeanor, but that’s not the case here.”
Shoot down? Sure you did. As for me,
Marge: Gosh, I thought he’d be happier in his true habitat.
Warden: Oh, I think he is.
Marge: Then why is he attacking all those other elephants?
Warden: Well, animals are not like people, Mrs. Simpson. Some of them
act badly because they’ve had a hard life, or have been mistreated…but, like people, some of them are just jerks.
Stop that, Mr. Simpson.
[Homer butts the warden repeatedly]
Any scores of learning and comprehending. You aren’t smarter than us. You keep proving otherwise. The best way to show you are smart you are is to stop posting here. You are in over your head. The symptoms are there.
As for what to write on my tank – “Surrender now”
might be a good idea.
I’ll go with:
All your base are belong to us.
Sure you did.
umm, yeah, he did.
and you really should read some of those letters regarding the “founding fathers” opions wrt to religion sometime, feaux history buff.
here’s a few choice quotes for ya:
FAIL 1: “Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?” —John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson (May 19, 1821).
FAIL 2: “What could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.” —John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson (December 3, 1813).
FAIL 3: “God is an essence we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is gotten rid of there will never be any liberal science in the world.” —John Adams, cited in Jonathan Miller. (2004).
FAIL 4: “The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.” —John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson.
FAIL 5: “The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.” —John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson.
FAIL 6: “Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires.” —John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson (July 16, 1814).
FAIL 7: “In the middle ages of Christianity opposition to the State opinions was hushed. The consequence was, Christianity became loaded with all the Romish follies. Nothing but free argument, raillery & even ridicule will preserve the purity of religion.” —Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Religion (October, 1776).
FAIL 8: “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” —James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments (1785).
FAIL 9: “Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of it’s consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort & pleasantness you feel in it’s exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you.” —Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr (August 10, 1787).
FAIL 10: “All men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” —Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence (1776).
you’re not a student of history, you’re a fucking history revisionist.
get lost.
Is that a Brokeback mountain reference?
BS
History Punk: Please learn to blockquote.
BS
Blind Squirrel: Homophobia is keeping me from getting good bread? It’s evil has spread farther than any of us can imagine.
” you’re a fucking history revisionist”
“The 14,000 members of this [American Historical] Association, however, know that revisionism is the lifeblood of historical scholarship. History is a continuing dialogue between the present and the past. Interpretations of the past are subject to change in response to new evidence, new questions asked of the evidence, new perspectives gained by the passage of time. There is no single, eternal, and immutable “truth” about past events and their meaning. The unending quest of historians for understanding the past — that is, “revisionism” — is what makes history vital and meaningful. Without revisionism, we might be stuck with the images of Reconstruction after the American Civil War that were conveyed by D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation and Claude Bowers’s The Tragic Era. Were the Gilded Age entrepreneurs “Captains of Industry” or “Robber Barons”? Without revisionist historians who have done research in new sources and asked new and nuanced questions, we would remain mired in one or another of these stereotypes. Supreme Court decisions often reflect a “revisionist” interpretation of history as well as of the Constitution. Would President Bush and Condoleeza Rice wish to associate themselves with Southern political leaders of the 1950s who condemned Chief Justice Earl Warren and his colleagues as revisionist historians because their decision (which, incidentally, was based in part on the research of historian John Hope Franklin and others) in Brown v. Board of Education struck down the accepted version of history and law laid down by the Court in Plessy v. Ferguson?”
James McPhererson (http://www.historians.org/perspectives/issues/2003/0309/0309pre1.cfm)
Historical research is a lot like scientific research in that researching and confirming already know stuff doesn’t get you the tenure, the women/men, or the research grants.
And you are right about my historical revisionism. In my thesis, I argue that the Ustasha movement far from being the minor player it is in English language historiography, should be on par with the Chetniks and that the Partisan-Chetnik orientation of the historiography should be Partisan-Chetnik- Ustasha. I also argue that the Ustasha movement was not destroyed in the Second World War as assumed in the literature, but survives and engages in a rather brutal terrorist campaign against Yugoslavia throughout the existence of the SFRY doing such things as bombing the Statue of Liberty, hijacking TWA-355 and bombing a shitload of stuff in Australia. I finally argue that they played a role, minor compared to Milosevic and the JNA, in destroying Yugoslavia in the early 1990s.
Am I bad for saying such things? Probably not. However, faux (SC) history buff, you were probably unaware of what revisionism is. Your ” pejorative usage of “revisionist history” to denigrate critics by imputing to them a falsification of history is scarcely surprising.”
“The 14,000 members of this [American Historical] Association, however, know that revisionism is the lifeblood of historical scholarship.
you lying sack. that’s not what i meant by revisionism and you know it.
you can’t make shit up and expect it to hold up under scrutiny.
moreover, if the best you can do is cut and paste… you’re obviously no student of history.
you are, indeed, a moron.
Historical research is a lot like scientific research in that researching and confirming already know stuff doesn’t get you the tenure, the women/men, or the research grants.
lol
something tells me you are quite far away from any of the above.
Your ” pejorative usage of “revisionist history” to denigrate critics by imputing to them a falsification of history is scarcely surprising.”
indeed, nor was it unwarranted.
…besides, you should be beaten about the head and neck for being a Rush Limbaugh supporter.
freakin….
*EWWWWWW*
This must be why in the movie Navy Seals they referred to the sniper with a Barrett M82 as GOD.
‘you lying sack. that’s not what i meant by revisionism and you know it.”
I didn’t lie about anything. Given how many people, smart people like GWB, do not know what revisionism actually is,(1) I assumed the worst.
“you are, indeed, a moron.”
Dude, I enlisted in the military despite having my college basically paid for. I couldn’t deny it if I wanted to.
(1) My evidence is the fact that McPherson had to give such as speech. I’d also cite Eric Foner’s Who Owns History, but it’s in my car and my car is getting worked on. It’s in the preface.
“something tells me you are quite far away from any of the above.”
Yep. I work in a museum, so I have to keep producing research without any job security. However, my job is grant funded. As for women, I’m saving myself for marriage. An arranged marriage.
“you can’t make shit up and expect it to hold up under scrutiny.”
My imperialism wasn’t so bad theory isn’t all that out there. Niall Ferguson’s site has his take on it and check out the for even more (http://www.sydneyline.com/)
This is the only gun-writing I’d trust.
http://img524.imageshack.us/i/img05168etfo5.jpg/
Hello to you all. I have multiple times thought about rising from the ranks of lurkers to rank of commenter.
I keep wondering how badly USA handles the propaganda warfare. From ham in the televised Christmas meal in Iraq to this…
This also effects the safety of Finnish troops in Afghanistan so it is not purely USA matter.
I know that most of you agree with me on these matters, but I still have to went a bit.
Yawn, HP is continuing to prove to us he is a fool. Film at 11. Next thing, he will be telling us his imaginary deity exists. Without any physical evidence, of course.
There’s a difference?
Trijicon does not make “laser” sights, they make standard optics. They’ve got some fancy stuff like a little fiber optic on the top that carries light into the actual sight for a nice red dot in the center. Anyways, yes, it’s run by a bunch of dumb xians, but the quote from the bible is actually a big pun: “he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” …and they optics with illuminated reticles and night sights, etc.? Get it? Anyways, welcome to 2004, ABC news.
Er, that’s not to say it isn’t completely stupid, though. If you want serious crazy right-wing nutters, check out http://www.magpul.com/ Their rotating banner used ot have Ayn Rand quotes and bible verses, etc.
HP knows what revisionism is? Doubt it!
As to GWB, reading was not one of his fortes, and his level of comprehension can be best described as a void.
gwb and smart in same sentence is a display sample of an oxymoron.
Aw nuts, I forgot again…
Which one was “the religion of peace”?
As a poster on TPM pointed out, Trijicom has been doing this for at least 20 years, so this isn’t anything that they’re doing for the current unpleasantness.
history punk @119
And in one short paragraph, history punk has gone from somewhat amusing troll to a blazing asshole spewing savage ignorance all over the internets. Dungeon time?
Bleh, yep all over the ACOGs. I checked a ton today while working they all have them, new and old including ones older than the current wars. So it’s not new, but I certainly was not aware of it and I didn’t know anyone who was aware of it. It’s not the numbers generally used to track the items so it’s not obvious, well wasn’t to me at least. Six years in the Army using them and I had never noticed it before.
Gao. Not that it really matters, but it’s actually She.
Considerring that you’ve never made a substantive reply to me, I’m going to say that yes, I did.
In fact, you’ve /barely/ made a substantive response at all..
JeffreyD @134 : No worries.
@Laen: As soon as I read this I went and checked all my students rifles as well and there it was. I never knew. I commented a ton over at Bad Astronomy but I will say again here. I am an atheist in the military but it’s not even my lack of belief that makes this a huge problem. It’s on a weapon, used by US forces in a Islamic country where we are fighting an insurgency. An insurgency that tries to paint us as crusaders. My personal offence is overshadowed by the danger that it puts my men and everyone else in. All for no benefit except stroking some Christian CEOs ego.
We never did have much patience for the preacher types:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/01/soldiers_with_attitude.php
Sorry, that last link was broken. Here is the good one:
Cowcakes @ 160 :
The story goes that a couple of evaluators from the SEALS went to look at a demonstration of an earlier model Barrett 50 cal sniper rifle, watched a round from one devastate a frozen pig carcass, and suitably impressed, say “God! we’ve got to get some of those!”
Laen@172:
Are you an Armorer, if so would it be possible to replace all the red triangles in the sights with scarlet A’s?
pointless poll here:
http://www.gazette.com/opinion/religion-92678-millions-devout.html
going the wrong way at present…
This just in…”Scott Brown has won the Massachusetts Senate seat once held by Senator Ted Kennedy. With 99 percent of the precincts reporting, Brown has beaten his Democratic challenger Martha Coakley 52-47 percent.”
WooHoo!
Wrong thread idiot. You’ve shown every reason for us to suspect you are a troll. The thought that you are a professor should be a shame on our education system.
and you’ve never made a mistake… hit a wrong button? Righhhhht!
Not really, no. Not that I can recollect. Not that there is anything wrong with pressing the wrong button, but even in the right post it would have been a odious statement. If you wanted to get any respect here (and other places), you wouldn’t be posting like a spoiled privileged brat and actually engage in productive criticism.
Piece of Shit. (My freedom of expression.)
The perfessor (con man) is a idjit. As he continues to prove. Maybe if he stopped posting, it might help.
History Punk @# 161
Smart people like GWB? And tall people like Hervé Villechaize, I assume?
Professor Dendy here highlights the epitomy of the evil of the hypo-Christian.
Let’s examine:
1. God said “Love thy neighbour” and basically made this the one new commandment to follow. But, he wants to disallow healthcare that looks after his sick country men.
2. God said “Thou shalt not kill.” Yet all these Christ fags love inscriptions on guns, and seem to like violence and war.
3. Jesus said he hates hypocrites. 1 + 2 show Dendy is a hypocrite.
Dendy, if you believe in hell, I hope you feel the heat right now.
Apparently those weapons have been shipped all over the world:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3248161/Undesirable-biblical-references-to-be-removed
At least some nations recognise the insanity of them. Shame they don’t recognise the insanity of the war they are being used in…
Pharyngulated by the Pentagon?
New Zealand seems to have been one of the first to reject Jesus rifles when the news broke. (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3253107/Company-backs-down-over-gunsight-bible-citations)
We’re only very very very good friends of the US, and not allies.