Just about everyone is following the horrible news from Haiti, where they’ve been struck with a major earthquake causing great loss of life. I’ve been informed by multiple people now that Pat Robertson has announced the reason for this disaster: the Haitian people made a deal with the devil to free themselves from the French.
Let that sink in for a minute.
Rather than seeking to place the blame on divine retribution, I suggest that we secular people donate now to relief organizations. I’ll recommend two: The Red Cross is an obvious choice; it’s a secular organization that is dedicated to providing effective aid. I’ll also recommend Partners in Health, which is on the ground right now and has been providing health care to the poor in Haiti for years.
I know this is redundant because many of you have already made donations somewhere…but just in case you haven’t, get off your butt now and help.
You can watch a video of Pat Robertson blaming the earthquake on Haitians and their deal with the devil; it’s about 6 minutes in, so you can skip most of the wretched CBN noise.
If it makes you angry, turn your outrage into something constructive and use it to motivate you to donate to Haitian relief first. Deal with the evil scumbag Robertson later.
I heard on NPR news this morning that Doctors Without Borders was also on the scene.
Any link to the Pat R comment?
BS
It had to be divine retribution – the Archbishop was killed in the quake.
Fuck him. Slaves manage to overthrow their powerful masters, establish their own independent nation, eliminate slavery and Robertson labels the world’s only successful slave rebellion in history as the work of the devil.
What a peice of shit he is. Just goes to show that whatever god he worships sounds more like a childish demon.
It takes all the powers of Satan just to overthrow the French?
What a tragedy. And Patty-cakes isn’t the only infuriating idiot yammering on about this… After donating to Unicef this morning I went to facebook to post links to 2 reliable places to donate, for anyone who could and wanted to… I had to scan dozens of my facebook friends’ statuses saying they were “praying” for the people in Haiti, which irritated me because I was trying to get people to DO something for the people in Haiti!! Then I stumbled on this gem:
~~X X: praying for everyone in Haiti after that 7.0 earthquake… was listening to the radio this morning on the way to work and they read a quote from a man’s ‘tweet’ from down in Haiti: “Everything ‘important’ suddenly became unimportant today”… God works in mysterious ways in order to get our attention. What will it take… for you to realize what’s ‘important’?~~
WTF. How twisted! How can this person, or anyone else, be okay with a deity that deliberately kills thousands of innocent people, just so this spoiled, lazy American can sit at a fancy computer and talk about what’s “important”???
Disgusting.
Anyway, not to guilt trip anyone here, but if you ARE able to send any help, please consider it.
…wait, he said what?
Then again, it IS Pat Robertson, so it’s not really as surprising as it should be…
In any case, thanks for the heads up and the links — don’t have much to spare as a college undergrad, but I’ll do what I can.
I’ll be making a donation through an international student service organization here at the college where I work.
I want to know where I can send money to a fund dedicated to hiring someone to beat the living shit out of the disgusting god-whore Robertson.
No formal news yet, but there is this tweet.
http://twitoaster.com/country-us/jimmilles/pat-robertson-on-cbn-just-said-haiti-has-had-so-many-troubles-bc-they-swore-an-oath-2-the-devil-in-19th-c-2-free-them-from-the-french-wtf/
What an ass Robertson is.
Robertson reminds me of when an earthquake destroyed Port Royal in Jamaica. The pious claimed it was divine retribution for the pirating (even though the pirating had pretty much been driving away from there decades earlier) and not for the brutal slave trade where any slave suspected of rebellion was staked down on the ground and burned alive from foot to head.
I’m surprised he didn’t blame it on the gays or Obama.
All I need is round-trip airfare to CBN studios.
Surprised he didn’t blame it on teh geyz trying to get marridge rites in CA.
Yup. You should never underestimate the metaphysical heft of those cheese-eating surrender monkeys!
Just dropped $100 to Partners in Health, for “the Haitian people” let’s go everyone and see what we can do!
A deal with the devil?
At a lonely crossroad, no doubt.
No wonder they all play the guitar so well.
Donation to PiH in the works.
I’m at work, but my Lovely Bride™ is even now intertoobing funds to the Red Cross.
Nothing like being Jesus-like, Pat Robertson.
Blind Squirrel @ #2:
Here is the linky:
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/January/Powerful-Quake-Hits-Impoverished-Haiti/
At almost exactly 06:00 minutes in. Basically Pat Roberston claims that the Haitians (presumably the slaves) made a deal with the devil to help them overthrow their French masters. They have had problems ever since.
-DU-
Well he has the Bible on his side as far as the relationship between slaves and masters. Also, I’m sure he wouldn’t want the workers in the African mines he has interests in to get any ideas about empowering themselves.
Anyone can call the 700 Club prayer line at 800-759-0700 to register their opinion of this evil asshole. They have to pay for the call, so the more the merrier; just remember that you can’t block your number when calling toll-free.
Years ago someone got into legal trouble when he had his computer auto-dial Jerry Falwell’s number over and over, running up around $100,000 in charges. It was a great idea but it came back to bite him, unfortunately.
I just gave some $ to Partners in Health. Which, if anyone is interested, currently has a four star rating with Charity Navigator.
Update: The LB™ intertoobed the funds to PiH instead, as it seemed easier there to unambiguously designate the funds for Haiti.
Watching that video, and Pat just said that because the buildings got knocked down it may be a blessing in disguise?
wait
WHAT
What a fuckhead.
Let’s all put our skeptic hats on for a sec…
There is NOTHING in the news anywhere about any comment Pat Robertson may have made about Haiti. None.
There is a twittoaster message, and that’s it.
Now, I don’t like Pope Pat any more than any of the rest of you, but I’m not sure this isn’t just some bogosity gone viral.
If you text “HAITI” to 90999, $10 will be donated to the RED CROSS.
Any amount helps.
Wrong
go to 6:10 in the video.
I can’t see the video (my flash player is old and I don’t have admin rights to update it). Can anyone provide a quote?
If Pat and his cronies think this sort of thing is divine retribution for the sins of the fathers back in the 19th century, it puzzles me that they are soliciting funds for the relief effort… wouldn’t that go against “gawd’s plan?”
Oh wait… maybe some of those funds will go to “overhead.”
Just watched the video that david.utidjian linked to @ #20. Robertson does says Haiti made a pack with the devil to overthrow their French slave masters. I didn’t think it was possible to feel more disgust towards that man.
Haiti has needed American help for decades now. Why start now?
Alopiasmag,
Are you sure? The Red Cross website says you can “Donate $5 to American Red Cross disaster relief efforts simply by text messaging the keyword “GIVE” to “2HELP”” It doesn’t mention 90999.
Correction: I just found the info on the Red Cross news site. I just wanted to have that info from the source.
Quickly transcribed
Hmm. God seems to have missed Dover, as promised.
My neighbors are Haitian. I am going to check with them, and possibly donate twice.
JC
So, in essence Pat Robertson’s god loves slavery, and hates it when the former slaves get ideas ‘above their station’ (horrible saying) to such a degree that he engages in a little, light, natural-disaster-based mass murder.
I think everyone should be asking Pat why we should respect his woo and worship his sociopath of a god.
Sounds to me like the kind of divine vengeance fantasy indulged in by the severely mentally ill.
So, Pat Robertson is certifiable. Nothing new to report there then.
All I can really afford right now is ten bucks, so I donated that. Payday is friday, though, so I’ll be tossing more to the Partners in Health site. I read over their site and really liked what they had to say. Plus, it’s really cool they already have boots on the ground there. Good stuff. Thanks for posting this, PZ.
Thanks for the link to Partners in Health. I sent in my donation. I won’t donate to the Red Cross since they mismanaged the funds donated for 9/11.
I wish Robertson would get called Home and SOON!
#27 Source?
#32 Because its an acute crisis.
Just donated $100 to the Red Cross’ International Response Fund online. It was easy because they’re apparently partners with Amazon.com or something.
Less Robertson bashing (even though he deserves it) and more donating!
Having just viewed the crucial segment of the video linked to by David Utidjian@20 – Robertson is not only the lowest form of filth, he’s an ignorant idiot. He referred to the Haitians being under the French: “Napoleon the third or whatever”. Haiti gained independence in 1804. Napoleon III ruled from 1851-1871 (or 1848-1871 if you count his term as President of the Second Republic).
Payday’s tomorrow. I’ll be donating what little I can to Doctors Without Borders at that time. As others have mentioned, they’re on the ground right now and are a wonderful organization.
Here’s a transcript:
You know, Christy, something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it. They were under the heel of the French. Ahhh…you know, Napoleon the Third and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the Devil. They said we will serve you if you get us free from the French. True Story. And so the Devil said “Okay, it’s a deal.” and…uh…they kicked the French out. You know, the Haitians revolted and got themselves free. But ever since they have been cursed by one thing after the other. Desperately poor. That island of Hispaniola is one island. It’s cut down the middle, on one side is Haiti, on the other side is the Dominican Republic. Dominican Republic is prosperous, healthy, full of resorts, etc. Haiti is in desperate poverty. Same island. Um, they need to have, and we need to pray for them, a great turning to God. And out of this tragedy, I’m optimistic, something good may come.
Emphasis mine. And I usually donate to Doctors Without Boarders via Knitters Without Borders. If they aren’t there yet, they will be.
Full quote.
These are not mutually exclusive actions.
BBC:
Thanks, Ratti. You’re a great help.
Great minds, Rev. BigDumbChimp, great minds…
Hehehehe Can you say Magic Jack;&trade? (free computer phone) Just left a comment. You get a live caller. I may call a few more times If I get bored.
What a minute… Satan isn’t French?
Oh, Oxfam is there right now too. They’re another great organization with a four start rating from Charity Navigator and non-religious.
Poor old Pat doesn’t know which Napoleon, but he sure knows the devil’s work when he sees it.
Thanks for posting the donation links; just sent what I could to PiH.
#28–confirmed.
Can that waste of oxygen and space Robertson get any lower? (Oh, and his mock pained expression for the “sins of the past” and his lecturing, “mentoring” attitude toward his co-anchor were quite well acted.)
$20 went off to the Red Cross 10 minutes ago. Now the rest of you get off your butts and do the same, or better.
Speaking of how ignorant Robertson is…while scanning through his recent broadcasts for that video, I discovered that he regularly has a segment where he dispenses medical advice.
Seriously.
I’m creeped out even more now.
Anyway, on one of them, someone asks him about this strange ringing in his ear (a condition called tinnitus). Robertson confidently informed his co-host that this was a problem called Tinactin. I’d demand that his medical license be revoked, except he doesn’t have one.
Perhaps we should start a “Call Him Home Club” that channels money directly to the Red Cross, Drs Without Borders, etc.. We could have our good cause, and entertain ourselves to boot! Oh and in case you didn’t know already, do not give to Operation Blessing.
Pat’s vast fortune comes from faith healing. Mere evangelism is nowhere near so lucrative.
Donated SEK 1000 to Doctors without borders. According to Swedish news they are doing what they can within the remains of their hospital. They have BOG so they are saving lives as we speak. Keep up the good work.
Tough actin’ tinnitis? Sorry, I’d rather not let that anywhere near my feet.
I’m not sure Partners in Health is best-poised to address the earthquake. They don’t work in Port-au-Prince (they’re mostly in rural areas), so their resources probably aren’t well located to respond quickly. My money’s on Doctors Without Borders.
What does that mean? Boots on the ground?
You get less than you pay for with Dr. Pat!
Yeah, well, Pat Robertson made a deal with the devil long ago to become rich and famous, and he’s been an asshole ever since.
I can make that assertion with about as much knowledge and compassion as he makes his.
Donated to the Canadian Red Cross – they’ve already set up a dedicated Haitian relief fund. And have BOG! Great acronym. Terrible disaster.
I recommend we send Pat Robertson to Haiti. He can actually do some real work to improve a hell on earth.
Robingsome is demented. Not that that’s a good enough excuse, but he’s clearly been wacko for a while now.
@destlund. BOG means boots on the ground as far as I know. Picked it up from a video game.
When you want to know about the “pact” Haiti made with the “devil”, just google Haiti, IRI and McCain.
This outrageous scandal has never gotten the attention it deserved
After watching that video, I am ashamed to say that for the first time in my life I had an overwhelming desire to beat an old man so badly he can no longer stand.
That disingenuous, pseudo-altruistic, sanctimonious old git really should be numbered among the lowest of the low.
While pummeling the old fraud would undoubtedly be cathartic, I intend to channel my anger in the more constructive direction of donating to the relief effort.
#39
Haiti has long been an acute crisis. Of course, now it’s popular. I bet you most of the people clamoring to assist Haiti now where the same folks who opposed sending troops to restore democracy there in 1994 on the grounds that it was “imperialism” as told to them by some rot-brained moron like Chomsky.
I’m calling for more of both.
Of course. That’s Napoleon you’re talking about here. :-|
So… all these people were killed just to get the attention of a bunch of Americans.
That’s more offensive than Robertson‘s stupidity. This kind of morality is right up there with the Book of Job. Robertson makes me laugh; this here makes me angry. Holy Wrath. Hulk Smash Mode.
Is that how he pronounces it? :o)
That doesn’t work from outside the USA, does it?
Donation sent to Partners in Health! I saw Tracy Kidder speak about his book “Mountains Beyond Mountains” last year and he showed pictures of desperately poor and sick people being nursed back to health by Paul Farmer and PIH. To think that now these poor people have to endure yet another hardship….
Good thing there isn’t a god, otherwise I’d punch him in the face!
Oh, and Pat Robertson has reached new lows in his descent into lunacy. One can only hope he is “called home” soon.
When you donate on the Red Cross website you have the option of sending an E-card with your donation to the recipient of your choice.
I’m tempted to send one to Pat with the message “In memory of your long departed humanity and decency.”
Aahh, some good ol’ Christian Love ™. Always good when tragedy strikes.
TAKE A MOUTHFUL OF DEATH, SINNERS! God LOVES you. As it was already evident by your terrible social situation!
Historypunk – your name is appropriate given how simplistic you seem to think about things. Solving an acute crisis, even an overwhelming one like this, is a lot easier than solving systemic problems of overpopulation, deforestation, and corruption. If you’ve got any solutions for the latter, I’m sure everyone would like to hear them. Right now there are more immediate things to deal with, not just because it’s “popular”.
Dear Pat Robertson,
I saw your piece this morning on the terrible plight of the Haitians. I was digging for my check book to send you a check when you mentioned how God was punishing them for turning to Satan for release from the French.
That made me think, who are we to question the will of God. Should we not allow him to deal out his justice and not second guess him. Why should we help those he has chosen to punish? Should we not wait until the wicked Haitians see the error of their ways and repent? Should we not wait until god himself forgives them and raises them up from the poverty? If we do not wait until god has forgiven them are we not risking gods wrath ourselves?
Gods message and your message seem at odds but since god never talks to me I will await your guidance.
Until then I think I will just give to the Red Cross.
CS
F’n Pat Robertson.
http://www.bobfelton.com/?p=8532
I donated a bit to both PIH and Doctors Without Borders. I don’t have much, but hey – it has to be better than saying I’ll pray for them, right? Thanks for the info on both organizations.
Well Pat has his history all screwed up. First of all the Haitian slaves revolted in 1791 before Napoleon took power in France. What I think Pat is refering to is that shortly before the rebellion started several of the leaders of the planned rebellion got together and conducted a Voodoo ceremony to symbolically bind themselves together to stage the revolt. Dur8ing the ceremnony the slaves pleged themselves to God and damned the “whites” for worshiping an evil god that told them to do evil things.
I note here that it appears that in Haiti the death rate among slaves was about double the birth rate before the revolt and Haitian masters had a reputation for cruelty. In fact it appears that 2/3 of the Haitian slaves had in fact been born in Africa when the revolt happenned.
Already the colony was wracked by conflict between the various groups of freed people in Haiti. Giving the slaves the opportunity to start a rebellion.
The resulting war was brutal and at times genocidal. Eventually by 1799 the great Haitian leader Toussiant L’Overture had managed to restore a semblence of peace. Napoleon upon making the Peace of Amiens with Britain in 1801 decided to restore firm French control of Haiti and was planning to restore slavery. Well the resulting war was characterized by brutality, even by Haiti standards, of unspeakable horror. The French were driven out and of Napoleon’s 50+ men he sent to the island more than 40,000 died.
Napoleon’s troops captured Toussiant who Napoleon deliberately left to freeze and starve to death in a prison in the Juras mountains of France.
So sorry Pat no pact with the devil was made. It is unpleasant to record that brutal and corrupt though Haitian regimes have been since independence they are still better than the colonial French regime. At least the birth rate has exceeded the death rate.
However it does not surprise me that Pat should disparage this struggle by saying that those who fought to free themselves from slavery were allied with the devil. I wonder what Pat’s opinion is of the Emancipation Proclaimation?
I did give a donation to a Haitian charity. I hope others will also.
@74: 1825 must be a reference to a French attempt at recolonisation, which the Haitians bought off, giving France “compensation” for the loss of slaves!
Instead of using the website, I called the Red Cross number, where you can talk to a live person and specifically designate the money for the Haiti relief effort. We gave $100. I will tell the spawn and wife that their birthday dinners will be at a cheaper place this year.
Indeed if the Haitians have made a pact with the
devil then any christian who helps them is really aiding the Devil.
Probably should just nuke em’ to give god a helping hand ridding the world of evil.
Pacal, you think PatR is interested in historical accuracy? No.
The rest of us thank you for taking the time to enlighten us.
The myth of the “voodoo ceremony of the Bois Caïman”, when Bookmann supposedly made a pact with Satan in order to garantee the success of the Haïtian Revolution, is another one of this typical white supremacist nonsensical stories for which there is not a shred of evidence.
In the racist minds of the authors of this nonsense and those who propagate it such as Pat Robertson, it is inconcevable that an army of black slaves could have been capable of defeating the expeditionary forces of Napoleon Bonaparte. Therefore, they must have asked the help of the devil (Napoleon’s soldiers being considered as good Christians).
In all fairness to Pat Robertson, if you put aside our understanding of geology, plate tectonics, economics, history, and basic human decency, he has a good point.
Of course, from this mindset, one could also argue that the Haitian slave revolts against a then largely secular (and partly Catholic) French government under Napoleon should have been a double gain for The Divine and Inerrant God. Instead, He has seen fit to punish the Haitians with poverty and (now) natural disasters.
How do we reconcile this apparent contradiction? Using this Robertson’s unique brand of god-logic, another possibility presents itself. Per Robertson’s own admission, Haiti has been free of major quakes for the last 200 years.
This begs the question “What changed?” Well, as Pat also noted, the number of evangelicals in Haiti has increased over the past few years, often displacing local religious practices like Voodoo, Catholicism, and other animistic faiths. Based on this, we should not rule out that the earthquake was sent to Haiti as punishment for tolerating Protestant Christian missionaries.
One could suggest a number of ways in which to experimentally validate this claim, but I’ll leave that to your imaginations.
Ugh I haven’t watched the video, but I don’t think I want to. I’m at work and have to be chipper. There’s not much more I can, or need, to add about this fucktard.
It’s like belief in deity = no self responsibility! The big guy’ll take care of it. How nice. *gag*
@ destlund #33
Thanks for posting that. I’ll be doing what I can right now to help.
Of course he is. Just look at the ‘stash.
$25 to PiH. They look like they’re on top of things and ready to help.
Once again Pat demonstrates that Theological Meteorology is more an art than a science….that is, there is no predictive power whatsoever and it’s complete fiction.
Strike #85. This is more in the realm of Theological Seismology.
I bet you most of the people clamoring to assist Haiti now where the same folks who opposed sending troops to restore democracy there in 1994 on the grounds that it was “imperialism” as told to them by some rot-brained moron like Chomsky. – history punk
Ignorant idiot, aren’t you? The “restoration of democracy” put Aristide back, but ensured he could not continue his reforms by imposing a neoliberal “structural adjustment program”, as well as cutting his term by 3 years and imposing Duvalierists in him as cabinet members. Effectively, he became a US puppet.
If Pat’s correct, then God’s reaction time must be getting slow for a supernatual deity. Of course, as typical for these religious retributions, he mets his punishment out on those innocent of any compact with the devil.
Yes, Rev. BDC, I heard Pat’s comment on how this may be a “blessing” as all those buildings will have to be replaced. *shakes head*
Pat Robertson deserves his own personal earthquake.
Fundraising just started on Facebook. Amount is currently SEK 2500 only, but will hopefully rise. Set status as “Donated SEK 1000 (USD 137) to Doctors Without Borders (or the charity you prefer). Beat that, I dare you”
I just saw a pop-up ad from BillyGraham.org asking for money to send chaplains to Haiti. So, as the vultures circle the victims…
Well, it’s not a competition, but PIH has been operating on the ground in Haiti (not a huge country) since the ’80s, they’re well-integrated into local networks there, and I’m very familiar with their work and confident that money donated will be put to the best immediate and longer-term uses. But I’m sure Doctors Without Borders is also a worthwhile recipient – give to both if you can!
***
history punk, you’re an ignorant ass.
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/7/23/randall_robinson_on_an_unbroken_agony
(I’ve linked to this first more than once on this blog.)
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/20/protest_planned_outside_ny_immigration_office
(haitianalysis.com seems to be down, which is distressing.)
This country has been devastated. Donate, shut your fucking mouth, and stop trying to exploit this tragedy for your idiotic politics. (I had vowed not to post anything political about this in the moment, but can’t let some fool who would call Chomsky a “rot-brained moron” go uncontested. Now I’ll shut up myself.)
$50 kicked in to Doctors Without Borders.
Anybody know anything about an outfit called ShelterBox? They’re at http://www.shelterboxusa.org/ , but if anyone has experience with them I’d love to hear about it.
I admire this outfit – quick to respond with practical help
http://www.shelterbox.org/index2.php
I like my list off where to give a little better:
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/haiti_links_and_resources.php
Pat Robertson is such an ass.
For another avenue of donating, there is also
http://www.charitynavigator.org
It is a site that exists solely to help you compare giving opportunities, maximize and personalize the help you give.
That way, you won’t have to worry whether or not your funds are really being used.
Oh and “Fuck Pat Robertson”. Isn’t he ready to meet his maker yet? Sheesh.
For the past couple of years I have been donating $10/mo to Doctors Without Borders via a recurring charge to one of my credit cards. I do the same for the Secular Student Alliance (via PayPal.)
As far as the Pat Robertson quote is concerned I found it pretty quickly. It was located at my first guess, his very own CBN.com website. I figured it would be there if anywhere because Robertson is pretty shameless. The difficult part was listening through 6 minutes of his drivel to get to the quote. Anyhow… linking directly to his own website ought to shut up the anti-pat-robertson-bashers.
Of course CBN.com has its own donation page for this disaster that I won’t bother to link to.
-DU-
The prime reason Haiti is so poor is that after the long fight for freedom the French, backed by the rest of the then developed world insisted they got paid reparations for what they had lost. Since refusing would have cut them completely out of the international financial system (yes one existed even back then) they had no choice. That crippling start has never been made up. Because of their poverty Haitians had no option but to use wood for fuel and ended up deforesting their half of the island. so that when the rains came it washed the topsoil into the sea.
Sure they suffer from corruption and warlordism but those are features of poverty as well. As is rampant superstition driven by ignorance in a country where only a few get an education.
ISTR that Haiti got a bum deal when 3rd world debt was being written off too, though I am willing to be corrected on that one. Might have been for lack of decent governance reasons, but if you never fix anything, nothing ever gets fixed.
ecurve #93
Yeah, started in Helston UK (where I live!) by the local Rotary. They do a lot of fund raising here and always have stalls at local fairs and street markets. They sent boxes to New Orleans after Katrina.
As a Brit I didn’t realise what a total twat Pat Robertson is until today. Cannot believe how he can say such things.
Note: If you do text HAITI to 90999 to the Red Cross, be sure to text STOP to 90999 as well so you don’t get their daily ‘alert’ texts. They use mGive, which does their SMS alerting for them, and those without unlimited texts will get charged.
Red Cross isn’t on that list yet, but that is who they are using.
[back to lurking].
‘This country has been devastated. Donate, shut your fucking mouth, and stop trying to exploit this tragedy for your idiotic politics. (I had vowed not to post anything political about this in the moment, but can’t let some fool who would call Chomsky a “rot-brained moron” go uncontested. Now I’ll shut up myself.)”
Chomsky is a Bosnian genocide denialist and if you ever examined his footnotes you’d know that man is allergic to the standard practices of historical scholarship such as archival research, FOIA requests, or even something as easy as oral history. Hell, most of his latest books are complications of interviews or articles he’s written.
SC OM, did you even read my comment with an eye toward understanding? I specifically mentioned 1994 when Clinton finally was compelled to take action and was able to force out the Junta in power at the time. We should stay and fixed the problem and we should have done what we did in Bosnia and appoint someone like Paddy Ashdown to run herd over the domestically leadership when they misbehaved. However, that would be “nation building” which the right opposes because it doesn’t involve a fetus and the left dislikes because it admits things like decolonization (as it happened) was probably a mistake in many regards.
Hell, I am willing to bet most of the people who look down upon my attitude couldn’t name Haiti’s capital before this occurred or find it on an unmarked map of Hispanola.
I have heard lots of positive feedback about ShelterBox. They’re a Cornish outfit (as SteveV #99) says, and provide valuable practical assistance. A good outfit to support with donations! =)
Precisely my dilemma, so precisely my solution.
For those of you for whom the opportunity exists, please do not forget that some companies will also match your contribution.
I am sending $25 each to DWB and PiH. My wife only said I could spend that much… maybe more later, but it is something.
Did I mention my neighbors are Haitian and their parents are there now? Sigh.
JC
Rat Pobertson may well be the sorriest excuse for a human being on the planet. What a piece of garbage he is.
The New York Times has a good article up on current conditions in Haiti and the relief efforts. Both Doctors Without Borders and Partners in Health are mentioned.
Still no definite word on shipping facilities; the airport is open, but is minimally functional. Getting more people into help is going to be a big problem.
You’re illiterate. Read or watch my links, and read Knockgoats’ comments above. We are the fucking problem. The US and French governments have blocked humanitarian aid to force their political agenda, put money into destabilizing Haitian democracy (not to mention trying to do away with any organizations that oppose corporate rule), fucking kidnapped their democratically-elected president in 2004, and have – now through the Obama administration – supported and recognized “elections” in which the major political party is not allowed to participate and voting is in the single digits. The idea of the US “helping” Haiti through continued military/political intervention is fucking imperialism, a continuation of US policy in Haiti for the past two centuries, and has no fucking connection whatsoever to money that people are now donating to relief efforts.
Even if this were true, it would be irrelevant to the fact that people are giving urgently-needed money to help victims of a disaster while you, like Robertson, are swinging in to use it for some ideological agenda (I really don’t give a shit what that is specifically). Again, donate and STFU.
God i hate it when he does that. i used to watch that show before i discovered atheism. i got lucky.
“the devil said, ok, it’s a deal”
yeah right! what devil? where is he?
Robertson blames the victim in all disasters. he doesn’t want to think his god did it.
Greg Laden and I, researching independently, selected Direct Relief International as a good organization to donate to. Partners in Health is one of Direct Relief’s in-country partners.
They are also partnered with two other hospitals and a Catholic food relief organization.
DRI’s website says that all their admin overhead is covered by a bequest, so all money donated goes to relief.
Correct. Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has been in Haiti for a long time. They run one of the very few free hospitals in the country. That hospital has been very badly damaged. Here’s the latest(?) update on MSF’s UK blog:
http://www.msf.org.uk/articledetail.aspx?fId=haiti_update_20100113
I’ve just found a report indicating all of MSF’s hospitals in Port-Au-Prince have been (badly?) damaged:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/81333747.html
History Punk @ 101;
I am not sure that the citizens of those societies who formerly existed under the heel of colonial exploitation would agree with you that decolonisation was a mistake.
The dubious benefits of remote governance from a Western capital that is utterly disinterested in its colonies in any aspect other than their ability to generate wealth for the ‘old country’, seems poor compensation for decades of exploitation and oppression along with being forced to live as a second class human being in your own country.
Also, I do not think that a desire to render assistance to the victims of a natural disaster is equivilent to a military intervention. We have had rather an unfortunate history with the latter over the last few years, as I imagine you would agree.
Whether or not one supported military intervention in 1994 does not invalidate a desire to contribute to the aid effort now. Has it occurred to you that what is motivating people to help is not any sense that this crisis is somehow ‘trendy’ or ‘popular’, but is rather a genuine concern for the wellbeing of their fellow human beings whatever their ethnicity, creed or nationality?
True story: I was watching the news on CNN at the restaurant downstairs from work, and I found myself thinking sarcastically, “Now what message is God sending to the Haitians? Was there a gay pride parade that day? A massive abortion party?”
Color me absolutely unsurprised (yet still disappointed) that this human shitstain actually claimed that it was God’s warning. Fuck Robertson.
Gregory,
“I am not sure that the citizens of those societies who formerly existed under the heel of colonial exploitation would agree with you that decolonisation was a mistake.”
Yes, some occupations were cruel, like the Belgians in the Congo or Japan in China. However, lots of occupations were good- NATO in Bosnia and NATO in Kosovo. Given how fast places deteriorated after decolonization, I am guessing a lot of them were for the better, nonsense like neo-imperialism set aside.
*Head desks at History Punk’s latest claim*
Just.. stop now, before you make your arguments seem even more unfounded.
Pastor Robertson is a man of God I would say be careful of your thoughts and what you say about him because if you condemn him you condemn God,nothing escapes from God. I did not find anything wrong in what he said he simply just repeated what had been said in the history.
if there were a god, he would’ve struck down Pat Robertson on his corrupt pulpit eons ago.
Gave $100 to the Canadian Red Cross this morning. A friend of mine is adopting an orphan from Haiti – thankfully, his orphanage (by all accounts so far) still stands.
Ubi, just shut the fuck up. Pat Robertson is a tool of evil, has always been a tool of evil, and is in no conceivable way a “man of God”.
Assholes like Robertson and fools like you bring dishonor on the name of Christ. I assure you, you’ll be called to account for your blasphemy.
“the devil said, ok, it’s a deal”
Pat Robot-son talks to teh Devil?
Oh yeah – we knew that already.
JC
Fuck
Pat
Robertson
He is a scam artist lying piece of human trash.
Please show me the historical documents showing a pact made with “the devil” by the Haitians.
“Pastor” Robertson is nothing but a corrupt, greedy, bigoted, racist blowhard whose only purpose in life is to fill your head with crap while filling his own pockets with money. he doesn’t give a damn about you, he doesn’t give a damn about haiti, and he’s fooling himself if he thinks he knows a damn thing about his so-called “god”
Rutee,
Other than the Serbian fascists who started the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo and the HVO hooligans who wanted copy them, nobody seems to deny that the NATO occupations were a good thing. However, I’d love to see evidence to the contrary as my thesis.
No, he’s just a tool.
“They were under the heel of the French, uh you know Napoleon the third and whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said we will serve you if you’ll get us free from the French. True Story, and so the Devil said OK it’s a deal.” Pat Robertson Jan. 13th, 2010
What a horrible thing to say–absolutely heartless & bloodthirsty. He’s a fu@king pig of a human being…and the god he worships is an obscene monstrosity.
So… God is a black hole? That explains a lot, actually!
“I did not find anything wrong in what he said he simply just repeated what had been said in the history. ”
What history, where?
Notwithstanding that God’s a dick for punishing people who had nothing to do with the pact Robertson claims happened (It didn’t). And that he doesn’t have any stronger evidence of existing then Vishnu, Popol Vuh, the Loa, Freya, and the rest.
“Other than the Serbian fascists who started the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo and the HVO hooligans who wanted copy them, nobody seems to deny that the NATO occupations were a good thing. However, I’d love to see evidence to the contrary as my thesis.”
You reaaaaally don’t see why the NATO occupations are different from colonies set up as factories to strip wealth from other countries or land areas, do you?
Seriously, stop.
Oh My Various Gods, I didn’t want to get into this crap on this thread. SIWOTI is too strong for me ._.
“Ubi” means “Where” in Latin, if I recall correctly. I wonder why today’s drive-by lunatic chose that particular pseudonym?
I received a link to this site which has regularly updated information on Haiti for people in the Boston area (there’s a link to a live feed which seems to start automatically):
http://www.bostonhaitian.com/node/64
Gah. I passed over this somehow on first reading. Had I read it more closely I wouldn’t have even bothered to respond. I have no patience for such idiots under the best of circumstances, but on this thread? No. Take your cheerleading for imperialism and shove it up your ass.
“You reaaaaally don’t see why the NATO occupations are different from colonies set up as factories to strip wealth from other countries or land areas, do you?”
Yeah, I do. I also learned the stuff they teach you in 11th grade about colonialism is usually simplified, wrong, and slated against the “imperialists.”
*reads Ubi’s spittle-flecked rant*:
*brain becomes scrambled*
You have to be poeing us, right? Right??
The Washington Post has a good article. Interestingly, I found this in the comments:
I referred him to Pharyngula and Greg Laden and mentioned Doctors Without Borders, Partners in Health, and Direct Relief International.
robertson believes everything he says. but he is wrong and a sick sick man. cults are dangerous.
I also learned the stuff they teach you in 11th grade about colonialism is usually simplified, wrong, and slated against the “imperialists.”
What “stuff” would that be, then? You’re strong on generalizations, but if you’re going to parrot some paternalistic line like ‘all those brown people were much better off when their betters were handling their affairs’ around here, you’d better bring some specific cases, and some supporting evidence, or at the very least a cogent argument.
One of the main reasons that the post-colonial states, in Africa particularly, “declined” following the withdrawal of the colonial powers was that the lines drawn on the map were drawn entirely with geopolitical factors and the convenience of the imperial administrations in mind. Nobody asked if diverse ethnic groups and imheritors of separate cultural traditions wanted to have a go at nation-building. It was just “Well, that’s a job well done. *dusts hands* Take care now!” The Rawandan genocide in particular should be laid at the feet of the Belgians on this score.
I wonder why that might be. On a related note, why do totalitarian regimes normally get a bad rap in history books?
Right, Pat Robertson is a wacko. Nothing could be more obvious.
I don’t quite understand this “donate now” stuff. Is not the American government, thanks to American taxpayers, already sending Haiti tons of help? A taxpayer would be donating twice.
Also, my favorite charity is myself. In my struggle to be wealthy instead of poor, I don’t see how giving my money away is going to accomplish that goal.
There’s almost seven billion people in the world, and a large percentage of them are desperately trying to survive. Why help some of them when the vast majority of these people are going to have to be ignored? Why not just let them carry their own weight, and if they can’t do that, then let them drop dead, instead of reproducing and creating more poverty.
And if Americans do want to give away their hard earned money anyway, then give it to me. I got $12,000 in debt. Anyone want to help out with that?
Or they could give it to somebody who’s even more worse off, for example the 10% of Americans who don’t have a job. Why help out other countries when this country is full of desperate people?
http://darwin-killed-god.blogspot.com/
“Yeah, I do. I also learned the stuff they teach you in 11th grade about colonialism is usually simplified, wrong, and slated against the ‘imperialists.'”
Funny, I learned that while simultaneously producing infrastructure that allowed for successful capitalist enterprise to be engaged in, this is pretty much universally done without the consent of the natives, at gunpoint, and the natives are usually treated as, at best, second class citizens. But by all means, enlighten us on the White Man’s Burden, and how it was bravely shouldered by those poor, misunderstood imperialists.
Let me see if I’ve got this straight. In 1794 some Haitians supposedly made a pact with Satan. So about 205 years later god gets off his dead ass and smites the descendants of those 18th Century Haitians. That makes real sense, if you’re stupid or god-addled.
Of course you didn’t find anything wrong with what Robertson said, because if you had that would be like criticising God and you must never, ever, even think that, right?
Thanks for coming out. So, you’ve pretty well never been allowed to use anything sharper than plastic safety scissors, huh?
a human ape, you’re a despicable piece of shit, but an excellent example of what worship of capitalism and insulation from the rest of the world does to a person.
Please, please, consider MSF.org. It is not religious, and has three facilities in Haiti. Nine hundred medical staff many of whom are missing. The latest reports say that none of their facilities is safe, and they are operating from tents in the grounds
http://www.msf.org/
Michael Cowtan
Yeah, those zany “imperialists,” “forcing” “people” into “concentration camps” and “killing” them.
http://us.macmillan.com/imperialreckoning
As for Robertson. Just shows the kind of God they are worshiping. So full of spite, that he would bring this catastrophe down on them when they have suffered so much.
Let’s see if I’ve got this straight, a.human.ape:
I should send money to you, sitting in comfort posting on the internet, to relieve your debt, rather than to help thousands of people gravely injured, trapped under collapsed buildings in one of the poorest countries in the world.
Well, it’s my money, and I’m sending it to them. You can go straight to hell, you worthless piece of shit.
a.human.ape (@132):
I have no patience for pranks in the face of this much acute suffering, so I’m going to assume you’re serious when you say…
Donating twice? Quel horror!!
Actually, I’m proud to both be donating personally, in my own name, and also supporting, through my taxes, the charitable efforts of the nation I’m proud to call my own. If I end up “donating” even more, through my state and local taxes, I’ll be proud of that, too. Wouldn’t you be? Oh…
…guess not. Selfish bastard.
I have written and discarded two replies to a.human.ape. Even though I don’t accept hell, nothing I can write would improve on Leigh Williams:
While in contrast smiling upon the Dominican Republic by giving it lots of resorts and, y’know, the gentle, godly leader that was Trujillo.
Boy, I sure hope you had yourself spayed or neutered, Dead Weight. I’m going to be some pissed off if I find out you’ve been breeding and creating more poverty. Sorry life didn’t work out for you. All the best until you drop dead.
Ah, there’s no certainty like the certainty of a college sophmore.
For USA-based readers, here’s some useful information I found on The Grauniad’s blog on the disaster, http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/jan/13/haiti-earthquake
A.human ape @ 132
You assume that everyone who is poor in the world somehow deserves to be poor through some fault of their own. Never mind the government corruption in their countries, never mind that a huge proportion of them are children who have no say in where or to whom they are born, never mind the substandard education that keeps people from getting ahead, never mind tragedies such as AIDS. Your viewpoint is so narrow, so self-serving, so bigoted that I’m surprised you don’t need laser surgery. Ignorance such as yours is what makes me sorrow for this world.
I’m just going to ignore History Punk.
A.human.ape at #132:
Richard Dawkins stated, in a hair-pulling interview with Wendy Wright (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=richard+dawkins+interview+wendy+wright), that he himself would not want to live in a Darwinian society. Nature is indifferent. Nature is Darwinian. Anything called civilization should not be.
Even at the most logical level you cannot deny we’ve come a long way via empathy and cooperation. I would say a hallmark of civilization is social institutions that care for the less well-off or those in need. Social workers, for example? Firemen (and women)? Without these social institutions we might as well be out in the cold.
Just learned a nurse, who lives in the same town as I do, was killed. She was part of a missionary church that was setting up mobile clinics in Haiti. They arrvied about 90 minutes before the earthquake hit.
To Pat Robertson, I would ask why God killed someone who was making a difference?
Didn’t god give Haiti François “Papa Doc” Duvalier and his son, ex-President for Life Jean-Claude “Baby Doc” Duvalier?
I looked at a number of news sites about the response so far. The U.S., Canada, Brazil, Venezuela, and at least nine European countries have pledged or already sent help. BBC showed a photo of rescue teams from Taiwan getting ready to go. The whole world is trying to help.
Except, it seems, Pat Robertson.
I’m a foreigner, so I wouldn’t know: was he born evil, or did religion make him that way?
(And yes, I did send 100 Euro to Medecins sans Frontieres, and 100 to UNICEF before complaining about Robertson)
Oy, a human ape! You forgot to mention bootstraps. You know you want to. I mean, first one complains about those awesomely high American income taxes, secondly one postures smugly about the incredible importance of one’s own finanical welfare and how ‘charity begins at home!’, then having worked oneself up into a froth of self-justification, one climbs atop one’s high horse and starts telling people who through no fault of their own were born into a situation that causes them to endure privations that would have you crying for your mummy or calling the US Embassy crying to come home in seconds, that they ought to bring themselves up in the world by dint of sheer hard work and OMG OMG BOOTSRAPS LIKE WHAT I DID ALSO DO NOT HAVE BABIES EVER EVER. I can’t believe you forgot the last point. Shame on you. SHAME. Poor show all round. Troll.
Ubi:
You are an aborted hippo fetus and so is Pat Robertson. Both of you can keep buggering each other till kingdom come, meanwhile, we will keep donating to the Haiti relief fund.
Oh BTW, God called. He asked me to say ‘Fuck you’ to both you and Robertson.
Also, I donated to Doctors Without Borders. May Pat Robertson choke. I wouldn’t cross the street to piss on that worthless, over-privileged shitcake if he were on fire.
“Yeah, those any “imperialists,” “forcing” “people” into “concentration camps” and “killing” them.”
This is an unfortunate, but not dominant aspect of colonialism. Let us not forget the British and their sacrficing in keeping far worse empires at bay (http://www.niallferguson.com/site/FERG/Templates/ArticleItem.aspx?pageid=167)
“Funny, I learned that while simultaneously producing infrastructure that allowed for successful capitalist enterprise to be engaged in, this is pretty much universally done without the consent of the natives, at gunpoint, and the natives are usually treated as, at best, second class citizens”
And it’s a good thing too, it allowed the United States to develop as the hyperpower today and keep monsters like the USSR and the PRC at bay. If you think American empire is bad, wait until the world no longer has it.
I am happy to charge you another 12,000 USD for being a stupid twit. You are now 24,000 USD in debt. You have 30 days to pay. The money has already been donated to MSF (Médecins Sans Frontières, née Doctors Without Borders).†
† This last statement is not true: I don’t have 12,000 USD to donate. However, as soon as stupid twit’s cheque (check) arrives and clears, it will, in its entirety, be donated to MSF. You have my word on that.
Nor would I. I might, however, cross the street to piss on him if he weren’t on fire.
Twitter:
Dear Pat Robertson, You’re a douche. Sincerely, Alyssa Milano #Haiti
*****************
Have to agree with her.
Ubi: what you say about him because if you condemn him you condemn God
That’s fine with me. God is plenty condemnable for what he’s done and what he’s let his followers do in his name.
Please, please, don’t spring off this platform and into Hyperon territory.
I don’t even know what fucking planet a.human.ape is orbiting.
he already did
Looking at a.human.ape’s blog, I think he’s a kind of reverse-Poe. He’s a caricature of an atheist; he behaves in exactly the way that religious believers often accuse atheists of behaving. Look at these excerpts from his blog:
There are two possibilities. Either he’s someone masquerading as an atheist in order to make atheists look stupid. Or he’s simply a complete and utter maniac. Either way, he’s not likely to have anything useful to contribute.
@goodboyCerberus #147
I hate this claim of Dawkins’, and I don’t know why he makes it, though I have my suspicions. First of all, we live in Darwinian society right now: cooperation and the ability to empathise are just as much products of our evolution as are competition and violence. And he knows this. Darwinism isn’t nature; it’s a natural process. Both are indifferent, yes, but they produced the ability to care as much as the need to kill.
I suspect he makes the claim that he wouldn’t want to live in a Darwinian society to distance himself from the common understanding of evolution as social Darwinism, but that just feeds the common misconception that evolution is nothing but “red in tooth and claw.”
Unless I’m grossly misunderstanding what he’s saying, I find this argument of his about as incorrect as if he were to suggest that human evolution has stopped because we invented medicine and social safety nets.
yes Brownian, he WAS talking about social darwinism, because that horrible Wendy person kept saying what horrible consequences it has to believe in Darwinism, because it creates Darwinist societies; so he kept on saying how he’s the LAST person who’d want to live in a society that does social darwinism.
(Oh, and a.human.ape is also a silly caricature of an advocate of capitalism. Like I said, I don’t think he really believes what he’s saying.
Having been active for a while in conservative/libertarian politics, I have never met anyone who sincerely believes that “poor people deserve to be poor”. That’s a ludicrous straw man.)
have I mentioned lately how fucking sheltered you are?
hm, slave revolt == deal with the devil.
The morality of a Christian televangelist, on stage for all to see.
We can take some comfort in the fact that Pat will be called home very soon now, and might be surprised to find himself spitted beside that other ‘man of god’ named Jerry, both of them roasting forever in their well-deserved subterranean clambake, shrieking at the top of their lungs as they did up here – only for very different and more legitimate reasons.
But that doesn’t contradict Robertson’s insane story – he’s explicitly contrasting the two countries.
Bullshit. That is colonialism. If anything, the history books (especially textbooks) offer nothing resembling an adequate appreciation of the brutality of all historical imperialisms. That is why Elkins notes in her introduction that she went into her research thinking of the British colonial administration in Kenya as relatively benign and even positive – how a fucking graduate student in history could believe such a thing is explained by this. Like you, they read people like Ferguson and not histories of what living in this system was like, and it isn’t until they do some research that they begin to see the reality.
You are a fucking history punk. Read some historiography from the oppressed world, especially Haiti.
From Ferguson:
!
How could anyone write that with a straight keyboard? What is it with these assholes that they can only imagine – for “other” people, mind you – cultural change happening through force and imposition? They fucking “imposed” democracy and human rights? I don’t think so. Could anything be more absurd? “We’re enslaving/oppressing/killing you to modernize your country and make it more democratic!” “We’re only authoritarian to stave off authoritarianism – now get back down to the goddamned mines!” I’ll give him “Western norms of order,” though.
There is so much wrong with that paragraph I wouldn’t even know where to start.
Heh – so he acknowledges it. No, I’m not willing to fucking wait for that. I’m going to work toward the elimination of all imperialism, not trade one form for another. Because it’s wrong. It’s as wrong to oppress people when it’s claimed to help people and protect them as it is when it’s admitted that it’s being done (as it always is) to exploit them. I can pretty much guarantee you no one here is going to be duped by your nonsense. And as Robinson says in one of the interviews I linked to above, and as they’ve shown again and again, the people in Haiti certainly aren’t fooled for a moment.
Once again, take your cheerleading for imperialism and Go. Away.
[By the way, the first segments of Arendt’s Origins of Totalitarianism – which never get attention relative to the last section – deal with the origins of Nazism in especially British imperialism/colonialism, and are quite good. Also, another recommendation for War with the Newts.]
I’m on welfare and it’s not much, but i dipped into my reserves and send 50 euros to the red cross to help out.
They need it more than i do.
Jadehawk,
He’s made similar claims before, though it may be for the same reasons. My copy of Miller’s Biology is at home, but I’m pretty sure there was a little “Biography of a Biologist” segment for a number of biologists, and Dawkins said pretty much the same thing there, though I recall the context was something along the lines of “don’t take the ‘selfish’ in The Selfish Gene as prescriptive, but descriptive” and that incensed me at the time. Who doesn’t know that?
Then again, that was before I knew how pervasive creationism was, and I thought that most people’s misunderstanding of evolution was–how naïve of me!–simply a product of inadvertent ignorance from a lack of interest, like not knowing why clouds form or how to perform stoichiometric calculations.
Ubi @ 113;
So, god is now reduced to being Robertson’s mind reading pet thug? Good to know.
Robertson did not ‘repeat’ any accurate version of history. As has been pointed out by other contributors, the idea of the pact with Satan is a myth, and the events he is (inaccurately) describing had nothing to do with Napoleon. Robertson is simply spouting his usual brand of racism behind a pious figleaf.
You say Robertson is a man of god, and so we had better not say or even think bad things about him, or some kind of Orwellian sky-bully will come and get us. I say that I do not believe in your god and so I do not fear that fantasy creature any more than I am scared of being bitten by a vampire. I stopped being frightened of the boogey man when I was four years old. You should give it a try.
Even if your god does exist, it does not make him any less of a monster if he is so casually prepared to murder innocent people. I will not bend the knee before a sociopathic butcher, however divine.
So, there you go, god. I call your bluff. Take your best shot. I am right here.
*sounds of whistling wind. A tumbleweed rolls past*
Well, here I still am. Conspicuously unsmitten by the supposedly omnipotent deity.
Either your god is too busy to notice or care (odd for an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent entity). Or it does not exist. (I could say that it might be frightened of me, but I won’t because I work hard at being affable and approacheable. I am not even remotely scary. Unless you count the baby-eating, of course.)
Take your pick.
SteveV@94,99: Thanks. ShelterBox just seems so… pragmatic. Such a simple, concrete, and useful way to really help people; the kind of idea that makes me want to slap my forehead and go “Why didn’t I think of that?!” I’m glad to hear that they’re legit, and will shoot them a few bucks come payday.
Ubi, a.human.ape: I am prescribing an intensive course of Dickens to correct your hypoactive empathy glands.
Ubi | January 13, 2010 3:04 PM:
You’ve just defined “God” as pro-slavery. Thanks, but those of us who have read the bible knew that already.
And now you define “God” as a tyrannical monster. Again, thank you, but we knew that already.
Your religion has made you morally bankrupt.
There is no historical evidence for either “God” or the “Devil”.
Port au Prince.
On the coast in the southwest.
Quoth ajay the Prophet…
Rāmen.
:-D
Was that before or after Napoleon invited the pope to helplessly watch how he crowned himself?
Where’s the difference?
And why aren’t you any smarter than the average member of an Austrian xenophobic party?
a.human.ape @ 132;
I have been unemployed and, oddly, I did not consider the experience to have made me ‘worse off’ than someone who is suffocating slowly to death while being crushed under several tonnes of rubble
Is the idea of helping anyone, however dire their need, outside your own nationality really so incomprehensible to you.
If I did not find your utter lack of humanity so repugnant, I would feel sorry for you.
Is such ignorance possible? =:-|
I guess the link I posted yesterday is actually more apropos today ; http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/01/americas_next_religion.php#comment-2199931
History Punk @ 154 and 155;
You have a point there in so far as the dominant aspect of colonialism was the exloitation of colonised cultures in order to generate wealth. The East India Company was hardly run as a ‘not for profit’ organisation, after all. The use of torture, utterly disproportionate force and concentration camps were merely byproducts of the maintainance of colonial control. They were part of the effect, not the cause. Not that I imagine such a distinction mattered much to the victims at the time.
So you contend that there is ‘good’ colonialism and ‘bad’ colonialism? Or at least colonialism necessary to the contemporary balance of power, and unnecessary colonialism? I would argue that, when you find the colonial boot on your neck, you are largely unconcerned as to whose boot it happens to be. I aspire to a future where colonialism is consigned to the history books altogether. A temporary occupation of a country in order to restore functional government and avert a sectarian bloodbath is, as Rutee has already pointed out, in no way comparable to a colonial expedition conceived with the sole purpose of stealing another culture’s wealth for the ‘Greater Glory of the Empire’.
Try to imagine yourself as living under a foreign colonial regime. You are not accorded equal status. You have little to no say over the governance of your country. Expression of your own culture is restricted. You live in poverty in order that the colonisers may be enriched. Your whole civilisation is repurposed in order to service the needs of another society that sees you as nothing more than a disposeable asset.
Would you really be appreciative of such a life? Would you cheer the coloniser because they maintain political stability through the use of brutal, ruthless force? Would you thank them for putting in place infrastructure that they only install to hasten the rape of your homeland?
I know I would not.
Ah, the fun stuff. But the students didn’t always think so until they grasped the concept…
Maybe I missed it, but does anyone have the actual video of Robertson saying this shit? The video PZ linked to seems to have been changed: I can’t skip the first 6 minutes because it’s only 4 minutes long.
I often wonder why they never seem to do this. I used to think people who made these arguments were hypocrites who would be among the first to turn “insurgent” in such a situation, forgetting what they said about resisters in the past. I think I was wrong, though. I kind of suspect they would fairly quickly become collaborators. They don’t object to the form of rule, after all, and could probably be easily convinced that it is a civilizing/modernizing/necessary force, especially if it were in their own interests, however shrunken they’d become, to do so.
The video has been changed.
I’m no fan of the Evangelical right, especially nut-jobs like Robertson, but, I also realize that many Christian aid organizations are mobilizing hundreds of people to aid in rescue and health services as well as food distribution. Their beliefs may be whacked, but, often-times they are the first on the scene of major disasters.
I found the correct video here:
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/201001130024
SC, OM @ 182;
I think you might be right there. A philosophy of ‘just go with the winning team’ might well prevail.
I wonder though; would they feel the same way if the colonising power was drawn from a culture that they had been conditioned to fear?
I wonder how History Punk would feel about living under an Islamic colonial regime?
I have the strangest sense that he would not be so sanguine under such circumstances. Suddenly, he would be the first to assert that colonialism is the most unforgiveable of evils.
I am delurking just to say thank you. Thank you Pharyngula, thank you regular commenters. Thank you for motivating people like me to donate (to secular orgs.). Thank you for laying the smack down on Godbots. I regularly read this site and all the comments because seeing reason and compassion utilized and promoted like it is here gives me hope for the world.
Michael Longergan, it is true that Christian organizations and people are among the boots on the ground in Haiti. I hope (and I think it likely) that these Christians are among the many who realize that Jesus was all about what you DO, not what creed you SAY. “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words” implies that very thing. What a pity that it’s evil bastards like Pat Robertson who define modern-day Christianity to the public, and not saints like the nurse from cms13ca’s home town.
Wasn’t directed at me, but I’ve heard this enough and love it
” I assure you, you’ll be called to account for your blasphemy.”
How will you assure me of this? Money back guarantee? Will you personally put a fire red hot poker up your own ass if I don’t get one?
Thanks for your assurances… Oh wait, no, I meant to say “Fuck you, loser!” and laugh in your pathetic face.
Consider it done.
I have been trying to find a means to donate help to not only non-religious but also non-corporate charities. Sure the red ‘cross’ is not quite SCIAF but they’re still bad. Can’t be helped, I suppose. Doctors Without Borders are sill MSF, but dickhead cheney forced them to change their name. That’s where my donation will be going.
I did find this;
http://www.escambray.cu/Eng/world/haiti1001131032
for a different angle on the coverage. Note how they don’t demand donations or tug at heart strings.
I also found some nutcases who I won;t link to who are more concerned with claimimg; “I don’t see cuba sending help” or “Israel is giving. I don’t see the palestinians eager to help.”
This is behond aweful! Its a good thing that Haiti is not far from us and we have unleashed all of our might..Helping with aid, ships, planes, and our military is in route to help as much as we can as always! I really feel bad for all the the heart broken people and the misery, We gotta help em out, Bill gates and warren buffet need to get on board now!
Also, BOG (boots on the ground) is one of john mccain’s phrases and a very large part of the reason haiti is in the shitty mess it was the day before the quake.
As SC OM said, the haitianalysis site is unavailable. A related site from venezuela;
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/5067
Yes that’s fine and good and I applaud them for that.
The problem comes in their leaders like Robertson making the moronic claims he does that point the finger at the victims.
Yes, possibly (I was glad you left the colonizers in your hypothetical scenario undefined). But by his own logic, he would almost have to accept the (let’s assume) relatively benevolent colonial rule of, say, Israel or China or a Latin American coalition, if they said they were keeping Islamic invaders at bay.
***
Today’s Democracy Now!, which provides some politico-historical context:
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/1/13/haiti_devastated_by_largest_earthquake_in
I just sent what I could to Doctors Without Borders. It wasn’t much, but it was the last $5 I had from my final unemployment check. Maybe I’ll have more to send Friday when I get paid.
(Just to stave off the Ayn Rand Assholes, that means paid by my employer, I was recently recalled after a 3 month layoff.)
BTW, a big fuck you to a.human.ape, Ubi, historypunk, and mostly to Pat Robertson. I need say nothing more to these wortless sacks of shit.
“Bullshit. That is colonialism. If anything, the history books (especially textbooks) offer nothing resembling an adequate appreciation of the brutality of all historical imperialisms. ”
I miss that part of American history. Where did the British round up Americans in concentration camps? Or the French after the French and Indian War? Yeah, I thought so.
“So you contend that there is ‘good’ colonialism and ‘bad’ colonialism?”
Yes. The British brought law and order and better living i.e. the West to rather desolate parts of the world. Western civilization is, as demonstrated by the fact very people on this blog or anywhere else in the West, travel to places like the Russian Federation, Serbia, the PRC, or Burma, except as tourists, business travelers, and ex-parts with the full support of their country’s embassy.
After all, it’s not the difficulty in mastering Arabic, or the onerous immigration forms, or the heat that keeps on from moving to the Islamic world, it’s the Islamic world that keeps you from moving.
did you seriously just write that?
holy fuck. I guess the only people that count are white, eh?
“You are a fucking history punk. Read some historiography from the oppressed world, especially Haiti.”
Given I am reading CIA NIEs and State Department cable traffic on Haiti, I’ll take your opinion under consideration.
The 700 Club now claims that Rev. Robertson didn’t say what he said:
http://www.patrobertson.com/pressreleases/haiti.asp
“did you seriously just write that?
holy fuck. I guess the only people that count are white, eh?”
Yeah. If you read for understanding the comment I responded to, you’d know it was claimed colonialism was nothing but “evil” and throwing people in camps. I shot that down.
Well Robertson’s comments had one positive result, I just donated $100 to PiH.
I’m currently unemployed so that’s a fair chunk of change for me, but I wanted to show just how much I opposed Robertson’s comments, and this seemed like the most effective method.
“Pastor Robertson is a man of God I would say be careful of your thoughts and what you say about him because if you condemn him you condemn God,nothing escapes from God. I did not find anything wrong in what he said he simply just repeated what had been said in the history.”
Ubi:
You’ve got to be fucking kidding me! First of all, Pat Robertson is nothing more than a bigoted piece of trash that, if a place called hell existed, Robertson and his ilk will be butt-fucking each other for eternity. Secondly, and God that would smite tens of thousands of people on a whim is nothing more than a douche bag that deserves to be pissed on! This tragedy had nothing to do with any God.
Go back to High School and learn some basic Geology. Oh, Fault Zones. Learn them bitch!
What a fucking moron. The colonials were British. What the hell do you think they did to the native people? What do you think the situation was for the indentured servants/impressed sailors/slaves in the colonial US?
Answer Gregory Greewood’s question. I suspect I know the reason you’re reluctant to do so…
“One of the main reasons that the post-colonial states, in Africa particularly, “declined” following the withdrawal of the colonial powers was that the lines drawn on the map were drawn entirely with geopolitical factors and the convenience of the imperial administrations in mind. Nobody asked if diverse ethnic groups and imheritors of separate cultural traditions wanted to have a go at nation-building. It was just “Well, that’s a job well done. *dusts hands* Take care now!” The Rawandan genocide in particular should be laid at the feet of the Belgians on this score.”
At what point do Africans assume responsibility for their massacres and malaise? We don’t and didn’t blame the Brits for the Civil War, so why is the West blamed for events decades after Decolonization ended?
[meta]
history punk, I don’t really care about your opinions; what I mind is that you’re derailing the thread, which is about disaster relief.
There’s an open thread if you want to discuss the purported benefits of colonialism.
Someone else probably already posted this link, but I don’t have time right now to read the entire thread. This is Pat Robertson being his incredibly worst self:
http://www.breitbart.tv/they-have-been-cursed-pat-robertson-says-haiti-swore-a-pact-to-the-devil/
You do that, pixie.
Holy shit. What the hell are you babbling about? And by the way, above and beyond your idiotically simplistic reading of my statement, it is dishonest and bad form to quote words that someone did not use.
Fine Morales, I won’t post anything else unless asked.
SC, OM @ 194;
They were just hypothetical generic, nasty colonizers for purely explanitory purposes. I specifically discussed Islam in a colonial context later because this is a particularly prominent theme in right wing paranoia, and causes the goalposts to immediately shift on various issues.
You’re right on the money with this one. If you could convince people like History Punk that you were keeping the really scary foreigners at bay (you know, the ones who look funny and don’t like MacDonalds), then they would doubtless welcome you as a timely saviour.
Afterall, to some people the right to national self-determinism and personal freedom is nowhere near as important as keeping the terrible ‘mooslem’ hordes at bay…
Cimourdain was explaining the Great and Terrible Islamic Threat(tm) to me at some length on the ‘Danish Cartoonist Proven Wrong’ thread only a few days ago. He seemed to honestly believe that the continued existence of the Western World hangs by a thread before the coming storm of the Global Jihad (if I may mix my metaphors). The language he used was very nearly that florid as well.
He is entitled to his own opinion, but I cannot help but feel that it must be terrible to live in such a state of fear of the very existence of Islam as a religion that you genuinely believe that the bulk of muslims are hell bent on a bid for world domination.
no you didn’t. non-genocide of a small select group of people doesn’t make something not evil.
and I still can’t figure out which “Americans” the British had an opportunity to mistreat but didn’t; because the ones they actually were colonizing were nearly driven to extinction, last I checked. And the others were the colonizers, and won the one major war these two groups ever had (and incidentally, these Americans did murder and imprison any Loyalist British, but that’s beside the point here)
Yep, his opinions belong in the dumpster with the other trash. There is the eternal thread he could go to. We can ignore his idjiticy there too. Cogency is not his friend. His ego needs some deflating though.
anyway, I did donate some money to various organizations that are already there and helping.
But there’s also effort by other organizations to get there, set up camp and start helping. Is this a doubling of effort (i.e. setting up new infrastructure, rather than using existing one), or would there be such a shortage in helping hands that having other organizations travel there would be necessary? What’s the usual level of cooperation between different organizations?
just some questions that popped into my head while looking at the different charities and what they’re up to.
This is about recognizing the political realities. Decolonization did not and has not ended in these countries. The same governments and companies continue to oppress people and loot, and the effects of their previous looting and impositions continue. No one in her right mind believes that Haiti has been or is sovereign in any meaningful sense of the word. Seriously. Fuck off.
Good. No one’s asking. Go.
history punk is so many levels of ignorant, it’s hard to know where to start. Try here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#Indigenous_People
I know. Who’d a thought a simple wiki search… Start with that section but read the whole page, history dolt.
MikeyM @199:
Yep, He really didn’t say that the earthquake was Dog’s wrath, he just said he agreed with
Glad we got that straightened out.
BS
I can just see the report, Annals of USAID/IRI/IMF…*: “The Persistence of African Massacres and Malaise: Suggestions.”
Also, this;
http://www.hotpress.com/archive/1481218.html
Although if you can’t get in, don’t go subscribing now. Give the cash to disaster relief instead.
History Punk,
I think if you read a bit more widely on the history of colonialism, you will find that although many of the colonizers really did have the best of intentions, colonialism itself was an unmitigated disaster. British rule was highly repressive, especially in India. It stifled development and allied itself with the elite while ignoring the plight of the poor. The problem has always been that the colonizer was unable to see the world from the point of view of the colonized.
In Africa, the situation was even worse–the population of Africa actually declined from 1400 to 1930!
Even in Australia, Britain’s hand was hardly benign–Galipoli anyone? Cultural genocide of the aborigines?
The fact is we don’t know how long it takes a culture to recover from colonization–it was a new form of subjugation.
Not behind a paywall;
http://www.hirondellenews.com/content/view/11800/291/
Decolonization did not and has not ended in these countries
Bleh.
Ambassador Raymond Joseph of Haiti is on the Rachel Maddow Show right now talking about the deal with the devil.
Haven’t commented here in a while, because I got a bit cross with PZ over something or other. But I’ve been running a thread on another forum regarding Haiti and I got hit by a “caring” christian and his dumb girlfriend. I just thought I’d share their comments with you all. Quite frankly it was scary…
Damn, I can’t cut and paste here.
Well, basically they said it was all the Haitian’s fault because of Voodoo and that they would pray for them but not send any money. They didn’t send any money for the tsunami victims either.
So I coughed up another $200 for the voodoo people, which sent the xtian nutters ballistic.
0.6 Hyperons.
“And it’s a good thing too, it allowed the United States to develop as the hyperpower today and keep monsters like the USSR and the PRC at bay. If you think American empire is bad, wait until the world no longer has it.”
In no particular order, I’ve compiled a non-conclusive list of places we, the Merikans, have fucked over.
Vietnam, Cuba, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Colombia, Chile, Afghanistan, Grenada, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, the Philippines, most of Africa, and most of South America.
This is solely post WWII, or I’d have more entries, like Mexico. That’s pretty much every place we had the CIA and our military screw with the country, or otherwise acted to thwart the nation’s sovereignty for our own benefit. Who’s the evil empire again? Spoiler Alert: All of them.
Note: I’m surprisingly not counting the Iraq WAR. However, we’re still why Saddam was in power, so Iraq stays on the list.
Long time Lurker, first time poster. I signed up for a monthly donation to Oxfam, because of this thread.
Know what a prison hulk was?
I’m so amazed – but not surprised – at how generous people here are. Even a small donation to an organization like PIH can save someone’s life. Please keep donating.
Donation sent to PIH. Thanks for the links, PZed.
Oh, and Pat Robertson is a fucktard. True Story!
If you’re looking for secular, non-proselytizing charities (or you’re just trying to avoid the ones that do) the Foundation Beyond Belief came up with a list of both:
http://foundationbeyondbelief.org/node/127
‘Tis Himself, yeah…as a Brit…um…sorry about that.
I guess CBN couldn’t take Pat’s whacko comments because the video clip has been cut down to 4 minutes. Luckily Pat’s comments are available on YouTube. Welcome to the innertoobs, Pat!
I sent $20 to the Red Cross via their amazon link. I also posted to facebook about Robertson and the ethical respose, ie to donate to help.
Well I guess this will prove once and for all that Voodoo is not real, so as rational atheists we should be thankful for that, I guess. Unless of course pat Robertson starts getting pins and needles and then suddenly gets turned inside out. I’m not sure which outcome I’d prefer to be honest. Er, does the doll have to be any size? Only I have an old G.I. Joe here that I could use… ;-)
PZ, I have noticed that a lot of pictures of the destruction in Haiti include people praying. Are you going to ridicule those people praying for the victims as you did those individuals who were praying against the health care bill? Just curious.
Oddly enough, jjt, Pharyngulites . . . unlike Pat Robertson . . . don’t believe it’s okay to kick people who are lying bleeding and broken in the ruins of their country.
Some folks have compassion and human empathy, you know. The only appropriate response is pity and a burning desire to help. Philosophical discussion can wait for another time.
What exactly is the parallel between an impoverished, heavily traumatized populace, and a bunch of affluent but deranged politicians with nothing better to do than hold a mass seance?
Thanks, MrFire, that was a better response than mine.
Ubi @113 — Robertson is an idiot. He’s a vile piece of shit.
And you, as his apologist, are also.
Fuck Robertson, Fuck his maniacal god, and Fuck you!
jjt,
I will personally ridicule people who are praying instead of actually helping the people of Haiti. It is, quite literally, the least they could do.
As for the people in Haiti, I can’t bring myself to ridicule people who were among the poorest of this world before the catastrophic earthquake destroyed their capital. The people of Haiti are, by and large, uneducated, living day to day in a life of nearly unimaginable poverty. Some people in Haiti are so poor they eat dirt to try to stave off starvation. In this light, it is unsurprising that so many Haitians have turned to the false promises of religion in the face of disaster. Much like dirt is fake nutrition, religion is fake knowledge and security.
I wouldn’t mock someone who was so poor and hungry that they’d resort to eating dirt because they were eating dirt, nor will I mock someone who’s entire life (and country for that matter) is so precarious that their only current recourse is prayer. The way to help Haitians right now is to send aid. Prayer won’t do a goddamn thing.
Pygmy Loris, Rachel has two great clips up.
First she herself dismantles Rat Pobertson.
Then she give Ambassador Joseph an extended platform for shaming Pat Roberton.
Loved it.
All this humanitarianism and Pat Robertson bashing is awsome. :)
From link at #199:
Bold mine.
OMG, black slaves defeated their white (albeit French) masters! It must be the work of the devil!
Leigh,
I saw Rachel dismantle Robertson. It was awesome! Watching Ambassador Joseph do the same thing was delicious icing on the cake!
Dahan @189, you’re right . . . it wasn’t directed at you and it can’t be directed at you. Unless you hold a belief in God or the sacred, it escapes me how you could be blasphemous. You owe no respect to other people’s imaginary pixie people.
The comment was directed to one of my coreligionists, who seems to be in agreement with Rat Pobertson that the Haitians are to blame for this disaster. Letting alone the whole deal with the devil insanity, claiming that the God he and I believe in chose to murder 100,000 people and traumatize the entire country is blasphemous, and both he and I believe he will be called to account for his sins — of which this claim will not doubt be just one of many, given his thus-revealed wicked proclivities.
You, on the other hand, are not in danger of blasphemy, no matter what you say, because God is not sacred to you.
If my misguided authoritation coreligionists dump this shit on you again, just remind them that they’re blasphemous about Odin and Zeus all the time.
So, by asking this Satan fellow for help, one can thwart Gawd’s will? Who’s the omnipotent one again?
Donated to Doctors Without Borders. I’m just hoping that their ability to provide aid hasn’t been too badly compromised.
I agree with Walton, a.human.ape is likely a fundie caricature of what they perceive atheists to be, carefully manufactured for someone to point to as an example of atheist thinking and morality. Luckily, hundreds of comments on this thread shred that strawman to bits by the generosity, compassion, and concern expressed.
these No True
ScotsmanAtheist comments are just stupid. Of course it could be true, but that doesn’t mean that atheists who think like that don’t exist. I personally know one who does (and he would like to re-institute slavery, while at it), and many others who think similar thoughts, but know to cover them in civil, polite language.Atheism doesn’t make one immune to being a selfish douche canoe
Naw. Pat Robertson is proof god doesn’t exist.
If he did, Pat would long ago have been hit by a lightning bolt out of the clear blue sky.
BTW, Ubi, according to Deuteronomy, false prophets are to be killed. Since you are claiming to speak for god and are obviously wrong, report to the stoning plaza. God really hates false prophets.
Oddly enough, god seems to hate fundie xians. He is always sending tornados and hurricanes into their heartland. They never catch on.
MrFire @ #237, why do you care if people pray? So what? How are you harmed if politicians decide to pray about a bill? If you don’t believe in prayer, than I guess you have nothing to fear from it. If you think prayer is stupid, then obviously you would think those Haitians praying are idiots too. Just because you don’t want to say it doesn’t mean you don’t at least think it. Why don’t you just let people pray if they feel like it? That would seem to me to be the tolerant thing to do. I’m sure there are plenty of things you have done over the years that other people thought utterly stupid, but were gracious enough not to say so.
jjt, are you illiterate, or are you just willfully ignoring the perfectly good explanation Pygmy Loris gave you for the difference between rich, spoiled idiots, and desperately poor people?
and praying does a lot of harm, if it’s done instead of actually helping. most of the time though, it’s just really fucking stupid when people choose to be willfully ignorant and believe in magic.
Absolutely. a.human.ape might just be a bitter, heartless piece of shit that doesn’t believe in gods, but his/her/its post IMHO just seemed to be a bit over the top and rang some alarm bells with me.
I’ll amend my comment:
Ubi @#113
You know what else has been said in history? “Fuck you.”
Human Ape@132
I donated 100 dollars to Haitii. I will gladly give my money away to people who need it and not some self-centered ass.
You disgust me.
Jadehawk @ #250:
If people want to believe in their “magic” and it comforts them, why do you care? Why have so much attitude about it? A praying person isn’t bothering you, they’re not harming you, let them pray if they feel like it. And I highly doubt a “lot of harm” is done by praying. Sure, there are people out there who choose to pray instead of getting medical care, but I’m sure there are 10 times more people that harm themselves by just ignoring dangerous symptoms. Plenty more people have bad habits (smoking maybe?) that harm themselves.
If people want to pray, let them do it in peace.
So impoverished, oppressed and uneducated people pray to deities because they haven’t got much else left to do, what else is new.
It only shows how religion relies on suffering and oppression to continue to thrive.
Noone is ridiculing people praying, but we are pointing out that if people in wealthier countries and better social situations do nothing but pray, they are in fact doing nothing.
As opposed to the atheists here who mightn’t have much money themselves, but are human beings and care for other human beings.
a.human.ape @#132
We need a Poe font, something like the Comic Sans fundi-font, so we can make it clear when we’re joking. It would save us all a ton of effort eviscerating someone that’s just making a joke. Courier is distinctive enough, I think.
Maddow :
“Ladies and Gentlemen, behold Pat Robertson, the unintended consequence of your first amendment.”
LOL
To Rorschach @ #255:
If religion relies on suffering and oppression to thrive, why is it that it continues to thrive in the United States as it has since the beginning? The vast majority of Americans claim a belief in God. Seems to me that if your statement is true, religion should be dead in America.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,99945,00.html
And “noone” is ridiculing praying? Wasn’t that the whole point of PZ’s post about those guys praying about the health care bill?
do you see me actively crashing prayer circles? no? then I clearly am letting them do it. However, when they decide to make a public spectacle of it (which, incidentally, is against your own bible. you should read it sometimes, you know) it is my right to point out that they’re being ridiculous.
And yes, prayer instead of doing things harms many people. Faith-healing harms people; “christian science” kills innocent children; “trusting in god” during pregnancy instead of going to the hospital kills pregnant women and newborns. and while we’re on the subject, those that were praying against health-care were also doing harm by more than just making a spectacle of their beliefs: they want to deny more people health-care. they are responsible for the 45000 people who die every year because they can’t have health-care.
such people must be fought at every step, because they cause great harm in the world.
———
this has nothing to do with Haitians and their suffering. This thread isn’t about you, so kindly fuck off and stop threadjacking now.
Actually, jjt, many of us here think that praying for the Haitians is just as useful as the story that leaders of the Haitian slave rebellion making a deal with the devil for their freedom. Give money instead.
you mean other than the fact that the U.S. is a place full of people suffering and being oppressed economically? (these would also be the people those anti-health-care buffoons are using to enrich themselves, by convincing them to vote against their interests “in the name of god”).
the U.S. is not some shining city on the hill, it’s a very ill society where many people suffer poverty and misery. It’s not a healthy society at all.
Please explain and provide evidence for how religion is thriving in the USA (hint: it isn’t), what you mean by thriving, what you mean by religion, and how you define “the beginning”.
It seems I have to quote your own post back to you, liar:
Noone is ridiculing the desperate people in Haiti praying, dumbass, wealthy white people “praying” about a health care bill is a different story.
jjt,
Jadehawk @ #259:
“However, when they decide to make a public spectacle of it (which, incidentally, is against your own bible. you should read it sometimes, you know) it is my right to point out that they’re being ridiculous. ”
So what if they make a spectacle of it? How does that harm you? Keep walking, ignore them, big deal. And by the way, maybe YOU should read the Bible before attempting to argue about what it says. It does NOT prohibit public prayer (which took place many times in the Bible), only public prayer that is done solely for appearance.
“and while we’re on the subject, those that were praying against health-care were also doing harm by more than just making a spectacle of their beliefs: they want to deny more people health-care. they are responsible for the 45000 people who die every year because they can’t have health-care.”
Seriously?? If you don’t believe prayer accomplishes anything, how were they possibly “doing harm” by “praying against health-care”? And I highly doubt they ever had any desire to “deny health-care” to anybody. I’m sure it was more like they simply didn’t want government to be in the health insurance business.
Damn, blockquote fail. Only the first paragraph of #263 is a quote. The rest is all me.
MP2Kwastaken @181
Here you go.
jjt @264
I hate to break it to you, jjt, but when a room full of politicians get together to pray for god’s help, it is done solely for appearance.
nice, but false:
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. — KJV
But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. — NIV
see? nothing about “solely for appearance”. not that this spectacle wasn’t anything other than an empty show, anyway.
you’re very ignorant about politics, I see. they’re doing harm because 1)they’re trying to Christianize a secular nation
2)they’re trying to make themselves look like good people, because there’s still this belief that Christians are automatically good, and the more christian you are the better you are
3)they’re using this illusion of being good to convince people that they are acting in their interest, when in reality they’re just trying to make sure the poor stay poor, so that the rich (i.e. them) can become richer.
that’s the same thing. they callously allow the deaths of 45000 people a year because they refuse to offer a public option so that the millions of people without insurance can finally have proper health-care.
jjt,
You don’t seem to get that prayer is, at best, a waste of time. Not to be all capitalist or anything, but time isn’t free. The time people waste praying could be spent doing all sorts of things that might actually help make this a better world. How many pairs of mittens for poor children could someone knit instead of praying everyday for some god to provide those mittens. How many conversations could someone have with a loved one instead of praying? Why not go collect aluminum cans from the sides of roads to recycle for cash that could then be spent to actually help people buy buying food, health care, dental care, clothing, school supplies, or hygiene supplies?
Every moment you spend praying for your god to help other people is a moment you could have spent actually helping other people. When people think that praying is a helpful action instead of a useless addition to actual help, it actively harms society.
I suppose nobody here has noticed quite yet, what with the Christian apologists running amok around here, but Rush Limbaugh is equally repugnant for different reasons. He was actually trying to cast anything Barack Obama did as merely trying to better his image.
Even if it were so, I don’t see the problem. To any person suffering in Haiti right now, a powerful man who is boosting his own image by helping is still a man who is helping. Contrast this with a scumbag who does nothing except denigrate others. I’m really not seeing Limbaugh’s point. Perhaps the Christians around here who keep pushing prayer could clarify how doing something useless is helpful to needy people?
So if it took demonic power to toss out the French, does that mean that they’re God’s favorites?
This is one Christian who has no intention of defending Drug-rush Limpdick. The man is a huge sack of pus.
His latest round of stinking offal:
“[W]e’ve already donated to Haiti. It’s called the U.S. income tax”
Obama will use Haiti to boost credibility with “light-skinned and dark-skinned black community in this country”
Isn’t god > devil ?
Yes, because it’s the black demographic that may cause him problems in 2012. They just aren’t behind Obama the way southern white males are.
That’s almost Glenn Beck stupid.
Victims in a disaster situation or emergency crisis need more than physical aid.
Do you know what victims during 9/11 said to members of my religion after the disaster? “Many people are bringing us food and relief supplies, but you are the first to share comforting words from the Bible and pray with us”…“we need more of that right now”
Even if you don’t believe prayer is ‘reaching’ its destination, it provides tremendous emotional support and comfort for grieving families and victims, which should not be denied to them.
Physical, emotional and spiritual support are all essential during a crisis (especially one of this magnitude). Any preacher or religious leader who blames God for this, has no business calling himself a Christian. God did not cause a natural disaster to punish the people of Haiti…that’s the sickest thing I’ve ever heard. And that’s exactly the kind of stuff which always gives true Christianity a bad name.
Our missionaries are in Haiti right now helping the people (not just praying for them) and they may have lost their own lives in the process. Plus, they don’t just show up ‘after’ a disaster strikes, they are there on the ground helping the people year-round…not broadcasting from ‘a safe distance’ out of their comfy televised studio.
A couple of hours ago, John Sentimou, the Archbishop of York (a reactionary homophobic git in his own right) was being interviewed on BBC Radio 4’s “Today” programme – the UK’s most respected news radio show. The segment was a useless piece of crap where John Humphreys was probing Sentimou on why a loving all powerful deity would allow such a disaster to happen, and chiding him on the nonsensicality of his so-called answers. One small gem, however, was when Humphreys put Pat Robertson’s views tot eh archbishop, and Sentimou said Robertson needed to “read his Bible properly”. Can we have someone play a recording of that interview to Robertson and tape his reaction?
Ah, a “no true scotsman”. Nice.
Well good, atheists and non-religious people sure are helping.
A numskull said;
“PZ, I have noticed that a lot of pictures of the destruction in Haiti include people praying.”
This may well be selection bias on behalf of those doing the filming. Compare the screen time of this with that of people digging their folks out of the rubble, or otherwise, well, actually helping. I suspect the reality is a lot better than it’s portrayed.
KLT – liar for jebus.
KLT,
Pray in one hand and piss in the other and see which one fills up first.
Haiti is a very religious nation. And look how well it has worked for them! Poorest nation in the hemisphere even before this disaster. Something I’ve noticed–the poorest nations tend to be the most religious. Why is that, do you think?
You’ll probably say that the wretched of the Earth need God more than anyone. No! The wretched of the Earth need to quit trading their daily meal for pie in the sky. Frankly, the only people I can see who have been raised from poverty by religion are televangelists and the Catholic cardinals (including the “Bishop of Rome”).
KLT,
What is this ‘spiritual’ thing of which you speak?
The need for comfort and reassurance is mental, that is covered by ’emotional’; ‘spiritual’ is redundant and unsubstantiated.
I hope that, to be consistent, you therefore admit horrific things happen which your putative ‘God’ either cannot or chooses not to prevent.
KLT,
Of course. These people have suffered greatly and are emotionally vulnerable. Many missionaries know this and use that moment to proselytize their religion, which is absolutely disgusting.
I was taught to say that “God has softened their hearts”. It sounds so much nicer than “they’re emotionally fragile and might believe we won’t help them if they don’t pray”.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space,
I think Rorschach put it very well here:
Quote fail, sorry.
a_ray_in_dilbert_space,
I think Rorschach put it very well here:
Is anyone else getting a pitch for a Haitian dating site as the top ad?
Also, from the Democracy Now! video that SC helpfully linked too, I took this adress they recommend as trustworthy and independent for people to donate:
http://www.haitiaction.net/About/HERF/HERF.html
Just woke up and smelled the troll dung.
I didn’t bring this issue up. The burden is on you to justify derailing the thread. As many others have pointed out:
1. This is the wrong blog to argue that prayer is actually helpful;
2. Time spent praying could be time spent actually helping;
3. The health-care prayer session was an actively vindictive circle-jerk that should be denigrated. It doesn’t remotely compare to people praying for the well-being of their relatives, and certainly not to those suffering on the ground.
argumentum ad victim? You can’t validate prayer by using victims as proxies for your wishful thinking.
KLT and jjt, prove your mental masturbation called prayer really works, by say growing back amputated limbs. Until then, you are delusional fools without any evidence that prayer does anything. And if it is only a waste of time, why bother, or say it is worthwhile?
I’m absolutely certain, that if I had the misfortune to be a victim of some disaster, I would be ecstatic to have some retard with a bible offering to pray over me for any loss or pain I may have suffered, rather than seeking aid and relief which may actually help. KLT, if you’re ever involved in some mishap that requires medical treatment, I humbly suggest you have your preacher on speed dial, instead of wasting the time of any medical services that may be able to treat you.
The news of today on the situation in Haïti are so …. (can’t find the words).
Haïti really really needs help !
I haven’t seen much evidence of that. While John Sentamu certainly holds silly views on a variety of issues (albeit not as many as his colleague, Rowan Williams), he’s not particularly known as an opponent of gay rights. He’s recently strongly condemned the Ugandan anti-gay law, and as far as I can tell he hasn’t said anything either way on the issue of gay marriage/civil partnership legislation. While he and Williams both wade into politics occasionally, they usually do so to condemn “materialism” and the “culture of greed”, rather than to talk about gays.
Sentamu doesn’t support the ordination of gay priests in the Anglican Church, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s an internal church matter. While I have a problem with religious leaders interfering in politics, I don’t have a problem with them instituting whatever policies they want within their own sects.
Although its not my place to confront someone on the street who’s in the midst of grief, of fear of lost relatives and loved ones, I can’t help but yell at the TV when folks get on and talk about all the blessings they’ve experienced out of this tragedy. Its the “299 people died the jetliner crash, but this baby survived! Hurray God!” mentality that gets to me.
Robert Green Ingersoll put it well in “Why I Am an Agnostic” essay(?), available athttp://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.html . I’ll quote a bit and link to a text host that has the piece I’m thinking about, so I don’t clog up the works here.
Grammar fail. My apologies.
(I’d add that there is a fundamental problem with the nature of the Anglican Church; due to its historic “broad church” tradition, its leaders tend to seek unity and compromise at any cost. In the UK, the mainstream of the Church of England, like the majority of the British public, is generally liberal and pro-gay rights. But there are two significant reactionary factions – namely, the Anglo-Catholics and the “low church” evangelicals – and there are also other churches in the Anglican Communion, particularly in Africa, which are incredibly conservative and anti-gay. And the leadership of the Anglican Church is so bent on keeping the Anglican Communion united, at any cost, that they bend over backwards to accommodate the reactionary nuts – which is why the C of E takes such a wishy-washy position on gay rights, abortion, women’s rights, and similar issues. They are obsessed with compromise and moderation.)
Those secular groups just did not do enough for those people. And those people were unable to pulled their own bibles for those ‘comforting words’.
Well, the Bible DOES condone slavery, and it commands slaves to obey their masters. So clearly the Haitians were a bunch of sinners for rebelling against the French.
And of course the Haitians had to have help from the Devil, because Napoleon wasn’t tied down with a war in Europe or anything like that.
False hope isn’t help.
Opportunistic parasitism of the grieving is a long standing religious practice. Thanks for keeping that tradition going strong.
And false hope.
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things does not belong…
But he sure didn’t do anything to stop it.
Good. That is something to be proud of. Thing of how unselfish and amazing it would be if your missionaries went there just to provide help and not to try and gather up more converts. That would be a truly unselfish and commendable act.
I sincerely hope that is not the case.
Help is great, do they help without trying to convert? Without proselytizing?
Why help if you can’t convert right?
KLT, it’s very revealing that you use the misery of others as a method of converting people to your cult.
This story annoys me:
“In Haiti, getting there the hardest part of getting the story: U.S. television stations scramble to get reporters into impoverished Haiti to cover the devastating earthquake.”
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-et-haiti-media14-2010jan14,0,4725571.story
I didn’t see any mention in the article of these companies shipping some relief supplies with their journalists. They couldn’t have brought in some bottled water? I know its not their job, but is there some Prime Directive code in journalism?
Would they consider, I don’t know, putting down their cameras and helping? Or are they unwilling to let the unfolding humanitarian crisis get in the way of their coverage of an unfolding humanitarian crisis?
Yesterday, PZ’s link had Pat Robertson’s comments at the end of it. Today Robertson’s comments are gone. Perhaps embarrassment?
I can only speak for the United Methodist Committee on Relief, but yes, we help without proselytizing. From the UMCOR website:
Three of the top executives for UMCOR, including its head, Sam Dixon, had arrived in Haiti on Monday on business with our NGO office there. All three are missing.
Because it’s the right thing to do. Because we undertake to love our neighbors as ourselves when we become Christians. Because for us, “love” is an action verb. Because Jesus said, “Whatever you do for the least of my brothers and sisters, you do for me.” Because we believe the Good News is more show than tell.
Yesterday, PZ’s link had Pat Robertson’s comments at the end of it. Today Robertson’s comments are gone. Perhaps embarrassment?
Shakesville has updated that the 700 Club (NOT Robertson himself) has issued an “apology” that’s really a “fuck you”:
“On today’s The 700 Club, during a segment about the devastation, suffering and humanitarian effort that is needed in Haiti, Dr. Robertson also spoke about Haiti’s history. His comments were based on the widely-discussed 1791 slave rebellion led by Boukman Dutty at Bois Caiman, where the slaves allegedly made a famous pact with the devil in exchange for victory over the French. This history, combined with the horrible state of the country, has led countless scholars and religious figures over the centuries to believe the country is cursed. Dr. Robertson never stated that the earthquake was God’s wrath. If you watch the entire video segment, Dr. Robertson’s compassion for the people of Haiti is clear. He called for prayer for them. His humanitarian arm has been working to help thousands of people in Haiti over the last year, and they are currently launching a major relief and recovery effort to help the victims of this disaster. They have sent a shipment of millions of dollars worth of medications that is now in Haiti, and their disaster team leaders are expected to arrive tomorrow and begin operations to ease the suffering.”
Yeah, CBN has censored their senile main man. The blowback from his evil words has been huge.
I was horrified to see that Robertson’s charity, “Operation Blessing”, has been added to Rachel Maddow’s list of places to give money. That was truly a WTF moment.
This is the “charity” that has been censured for using its planes to support Rat Pobertson’s diamond mining adventures in Zaire, and which Robertson uses as a slush fund. He also uses money from the “charity” to support CBN.
Rat bastards.
More bad news:
Confirmation that the deep-water port at Port-au-Prince is blocked:
There is another deep-water port, but it’s on the other side of the island. Apparently there are also numerous shallow-water ports that might be used.
The whole world is sending stuff, but how in the hell are we going to get it to the people?
You can’t love your neighbor without undertaking a membership drive?
We don’t DO a membership drive. That’s the whole point of
I would tell you more about our disaster relief efforts, school and clinic building, microfinancing efforts, and refuges for victims of human trafficking, but the UMCOR website has slowed to a crawl; it’s our primary donation portal.
BULL. FUCKING. SHIT.
If any of that fucking tripe were true, very fucking few of us ex-Christians here on the blog would have ever left our respective churches, regardless of our actual beliefs in the existence of gods.
The stunning hypocrisy of Christians of all denominations and the skill with which you people talk the talk but seem completely incapable of walking the walk is probably the biggest reason for the decline in church membership over recent years, especially now that atheists exist in larger numbers and are vocal enough about it that the churches can less effectively demonise apostates.
That may be a mantra that you yourself chant, and it may be a mantra that you wish were associated with Christianity as a whole, but it sure as fucking hell isn’t the fucking case.
For daily examples of “no show, all tell” among ‘good’ Christians, read this blog, if you can take the time off from patting yourself on the back.
And now that my donation to the Red Cross has cleared the bank, I feel legitimate in suggesting that I am totally on board with Mike in Ontario, NY @#9 and CRS @#13, especially since from his words we can be assured that that fucking piece of shit Robertson will likely see our beat down as “a blessing in disguise”.
I’m happy to bring that fucker as close to his god as he’s willing to go.
Leigh, I was being sarcastic. My point is that one should help for the sake of helping not for the sake of spreading one’s religion.
Humm, reading back through the series of comments that led to the comment my bad.
Ok you or your group in particular maybe, but if that is true it is far the minority with other religious groups in these situations and definitely not with KLT which my comment was addressing to begin with.
Leigh,
What about helicopters? Don’t we have a bunch of helicopters in the military? They can land just about anywhere, or hover to drop supplies and personnel.
Anyway, you seem to be a sincere person who believes in helping people without proselytizing to them. You’re in the minority and you need to know that. My former church helps the communities they go to, but it is all predicated on converting people to Christianity. The schools, churches, help building houses, it all comes with the threat of eternal damnation if you don’t convert.
I’d been bogged down at work all day yesterday, so wasn’t able to get any real news about the quake until I got home. It’s near the end of my payperiod so funds are tight, but I was going to make a donation to Doctors Without Borders. Turned on Maddow while getting to the DWB site just in time to catch the Pat Robertson clip. Had to watch it again online b/c I could not believe I’d actually heard that line of utter, vile tripe. After watching the Haitian Ambassador’s visibly angry & insulted response to Robertson’s statements and Maddow’s embarrassed response, I promptly doubled my donation amount, and I’m sending more as soon as I get paid. So fuck you, Robertson!
At the very least, I’m so very happy and proud to see so many here who have dug into their pockets to send what they can, no matter what the amount, to help with the relief efforts.
The problem with helicopters and airplanes is that they can’t carry large bulk amounts. They’re good for getting personnel in and out, and for rescuing stranded people or moving patients, and for supplies that have a lot of value in a small package (drugs, for example). But for supplies that have to be moved in large quantities to be useful, like food, they just don’t have the capacity to support a large population. Water transit is still the only way. That’s why getting a port facility working again that can offload a big container ship is a top priority.
I wonder if they might have to resort to some temporary floating docks like the ones that were used to support the British and American armies across the channel in World War 2. That same sort of solution might be needed here, but it would be a lot harder to implement because the island of Hispaniola has a mostly steep hilly shoreline, not the sort of nice calm easy beaches used in northern France.
All of the relief agencies listed seemed to be of the sort that offer medical service and emergency rations. Obviously that sort of thing is the most important need in the first few days after the disaster, but the next step is going to be handling the fact that there is now a large population of people who just became homeless. They have no shelter or sanitation, and rebuilding will be slow with all the rubble in the way. If that problem isn’t addressed in time, then we’ll start seeing indirect casualties from disease.
Does anyone know of good charities to handle this secondary problem? It sounds like a crude way to put it, but basically I’m talking about agencies that help the “camping” lifestyle that large numbers of people will now have to resort to for a while.
Well, yeah, and they’ll be vital to the relief effort, but the logistics get a bit more complex. As it is, the airport there is already handling about all the traffic it can. Air traffic control is currently being handled from the cockpit of a C130. One of the NBC reporters yesterday already had an anecdote about a near-miss between the helicopter he was in and another.
Also, those big choppers create quite a disturbance. Aside from kicking up all that concrete dust again if they fly too low, the vibrations could quite possibly cause some compromised structures to collapse. So, very limited in the lowering supplies/people to the victims.
And you can’t really just fly around chucking food, water and band-aids out the sides. There’d be all kinds of chaos. Guarded, organized, and easily resupplied distribution sites need to be set up to get necessities to people as efficiently and safely as possible. Even finding spots to do this may be problematic as many people are congregating in the flat, wide-open areas from fear of aftershocks. You’d probably need to drop armed troops to clear an area and control the crowds before you had a safe enough situation for relief workers to come in and set up. With panic and desperation building among the Haitian populace by the hour, things need to be handled very carefully to avoid triggering riots or stampedes and making the situation even worse.
Steven,
Excellent points about helicopters, but I was thinking about being able to move supplies and such from ships anchored near the island to the island itself. I know it’s still expensive, but as long as the infrastructure is so decimated, it may be our only option to get needed food and water to the people.
I see the JW-troll run away from our discussion when it got too hot, just to infest another thread with his idiocy.
people need counseling in such hard times, that’s true. But religious counseling is no better at this than secular counseling. And what’s better about secular counseling is that it is there only when people want and need it, and it teaches people to stand up on their own feet eventually. Religion on the other hand promises help, but then tries (and often succeeds) to enslave them forever, so that they’ll not only not ever be able to stand up on their own feet, they’ll have now the added mental burden of religion to carry.
You know, kinda like what happened to you. You’re a slave to your religion because you are afraid that you can’t deal with your life without it; and probably you’re right, since your “religious counseling” NEVER taught you how to stand up on your own feet. It only taught you how to become more dependent.
Prayer at a distance doesn’t work at all, not even as mental comfort or emotional counseling. This has already been studied, and people don’t get better or feel better when they’re having a hard time and know that somewhere someone might be praying for them.
well, aren’t you a condescending little shit. what do you think, that your missionaries are the only groups that have been there already, before the disaster? have you even read this thread? MSF has several hospitals in Haiti; PiT has been working in Haiti for years, as well. THESE are groups who are there SOLELY to help people, not pray on their minds. And they’ve been doing this for years, selflessly (i.e. no magical sky-fairy brownie-points for collecting more converts in exotic locations, and no ooohs and aaahs and money in their pocked from slide-shows in churches of how many heathens they’ve converted)
Additional donation site:
SalesForce.com foundation will match donations dollar-for-dollar up to $100,000.
https://www.salesforce.com/haiti/
Steve Mading:
I found this information on Greg Laden’s blog:
http://www.mercycorps.org/haiti?source=13500
They are: “… a team of 3700 professionals helping turn crisis into opportunity for millions around the world. By trade, we are engineers, financial analysts, drivers, community organizers, project managers, public health experts, administrators, social entrepreneurs and logisticians. In spirit, we are activists, optimists, innovators and proud partners of the people we serve. “
This is from memory (apologies for the lack of references), but I recall the BBC saying their journalists are travelling with an aid/rescue group.
this “us” you’re talking about is an extremely small minority among missionary work. Have you ever read Greg Laden’s essays on missionaries? Not pretty. The only ones that come out of those stories looking like human beings are a handful of Catholic Nuns; and they aren’t exactly much of a counterweight to the clusterfuck that the RCC is causing in Africa in general.
IOW, just as with other church-work, I wouldn’t support missionary work (even of the really selfless variety), because it makes missionary work in general look good; which is rarely ever is.
http://ffrf.org/news/releases/censoredatheistwebsites/
Steve Mading #316
See posts at #93,#94,#99 & #173
http://www.shelterbox.org/index2.php
The other issue with helicopters: I heard on the radio that they’ve suspended airplanes, both because they don’t have room for them on the ground and because they’re running out of jet fuel – there won’t be any way to get them back off the island. I would assume the fuel problem applies to helicopters too.
The US Navy is sending an aircraft carrier full of helicopters. There should be a tanker as part of that task group.
Carlie,
Running out of fuel on the ground in Port au Prince would be a problem, except that it isn’t like it’s an isolated place. Haiti is plenty close to other airports that planes could fill up and fly in with enough fuel to get out. The Dominican Republic, for example, isn’t that far away, and wasn’t damaged nearly so much. There are at least three or four international airports within 400 miles of Port au Prince. Also, Guantanamo Bay is very close and could be used as a staging ground to fly supplies in and out.
As Nerd of Readhead pointed out, the Navy also has tankers full of fuel that our helicopters can refuel from.
I’m sorry to harp on the helicopter/plane issue so much, but until there is a working port in Haiti, we have two options to get supplies in. Either we truck the supplies in from the Dominican Republic, or we fly them in.
Speaking of opportunists disgustingly trying to take advantage of the crisis to advance the most repugnant agenda, here’s the Heritage foundation:
http://thismodernworld.com/5013
Pygmy Loris and Nerd – Thanks for the clarification; I wondered about that, but was just going off of what NPR said.
*speechless*
The whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck. President Clinton says they learned a lot about organizing this kind of relief effort from the tsunami disaster; I hope to hell he’s right.
The U.S. military is really good at logistics; I imagine that the militaries of other governments have some expertise also. The problem I see is this: we’ve got six or seven sovereign nation militaries, the U.N. (crippled on the ground from their own losses), and probably 15 major NGO’s involved (ditto). No roads, no deep-water port, very limited airport.
Who’s in charge? I would have said the U.N., but both the top envoy and his aide were killed in the quake. The U.N. has dispatched Edmond Mulet, who was formerly stationed in Haiti as the head of the peacekeepers, to coordinate the relief effort. I hope he has the wisdom of Solomon, the patience of Job, and a crack team of logistics experts.
p.s. I have decided not to continue a futile and misguided attempt to defend missionaries. I agree with the points you’ve made and I apologize for contributing to thread derailment. Let’s keep this thread, at least, about Haiti and about our shared grief and concern. (Except for the bashing Rat Pobertson part; I’m all for that.)
That was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek; of course they do.
It occurs to me that this would be a good time to make friends with Cuba, too.
agreed. and we can add bashing the Heritage Foundation now, too (see link in #330)
definitely. last thing we need now is the sort of idiotic grandstanding that kept Cuban volunteer doctors out of New Orleans after Katrina.
Okay, let’s bash the fucking Heritage Foundation too. They’re putting the “fugly” back in “Ugly Americans”. Rat bastards.
@#330,
Truly horrifying. The Heritage Foundation is a disgusting group of amoral, racist, xenophobes.
Since Cuba had medical personnel on the ground prior to the earthquake, and this isn’t US soil, they probably won’t be ignored.
not ignored, but there might be lack of cooperation, resource hogging, other entirely counter-productive hostilities and distrust, what-have-you.
This is something that seems to happen sometimes in U.N. missions when teams from non-friendly countries are made to work together, and it might happen here too maybe.
Hopefully humanity and empathy for the victims will trump petty nationalistic disputes.
Maybe I should rephrase my #339 to mean that resupply of the Cuban medical personnel from Cuba will probably be allowed.
I read somewhere that Cuba already had 500 doctors in Haiti. This would be a really, really good time to make friends with Cuba. They would make a great forward staging zone. Realpolitik will no doubt get in the way, but we can hope, right?
Amen sister…
The so-called Miami Cubans will throw their considerable political weight against any rapprochement with Cuba. These are the folks who have been keeping the US from having any sort of relationship with Cuba. Many Miami Cubans have based their entire lives on turning the clock back to pre-Castro 1958.
While the immediate crisis is the primary concern, I’d like to put in a plug for Heifer International. They will be working to help get people back on their feet after most of the first responders have gone home.
Please check them out. Here’s a link that outlines their goals and it has links to a donation site, should you so choose.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/heifer-international-issues-appeal-to-aid-haiti-earthquake-victims-81375472.html
The media are starting to notice the logistics issue:
“Aid Efforts Face Obstacles in Quake-Ravaged Capital”, WSJ
“Aid workers could face logistical problems in Haiti”, National Post, Canada
Meanwhile, the situation is getting desperate.
My heart is so heavy. With all the world longing to help, how can we get in to rescue these people?
#316 – I agree that ShelterBox is a good charity to support for intermediate term aid, but it doesn’t address longer term rebuilding.
For that I’d like to suggest the Grameen Foundation: http://www.grameenfoundation.org
Grameen specializes in micropayment loans to start and support small businesses. They operate through a local bank called Fonkoze in Haiti. You can find out more about them at http://www.fonkoze.org
Oh, and I’ve been making monthly donations to Grameen for many years, so to those who think everyone’s concern for Haiti and similar places is a new one (I’m looking at you, History Punk), you can stick that notion where the sun don’t shine.
So I was thinking about the water situation in Haiti today and I have a question. Presumably the existing water distribution network (things like pipelines and water treatment plants) has been decimated and available water (like surface water, runoff and such) isn’t fit to drink.
Wouldn’t small personal filters like those used in backpacking help the situation? If we could distribute backpacking/camping supplies like water fliters, portable stoves and fuel, couldn’t the people at least collect and use water that would otherwise be unsafe to drink?
@347: I *heart* microfinance. If anything can save the world, microfinance can.
@345: I should mention that, though Heifer International is a Christian charity, they are not–repeat, NOT–assholes about it. I’m an atheist and I think they’re awesomesauce.
I think that water purification tablets and filtration units are part of the initial response. ShelterBox’s supplies include a unit. We just have to figure out how to get those things into the country.
Oh, and I also found this, P.L. — I don’t know anything about these people (yet), but your very sensible idea is shared by them:
Ah, they say they’re “faith-based”. They’re a World Vision partner and also prominently feature The Evangelical Church of the Dominican Republic (founded by the Presbyterians, the Methodists, and the Moravians in 1921). On the plus side, they’ve got personnel in-country along the Haitian border.
Rotary International is a support partner.
Leigh,
Thanks for the links. I’ll donate more after I get some money. It just seems to me that these are the kinds of high value/lighweight supplies we could distribute through helicopters.
I just had a horrible conversation on facebook with a friend who thinks Haitians should have been better prepared. He seems to think people who were so poor they were eating clay should have stored food and water for an emergency. I’m seriously thinking of telling this person to go to Hell.
#349 – I was completely sold on microfinance the first time I read about the Grameen Bank of Bangladesh back in the early 1990s. I wanted to support them back then but there was no way to do it… That changed once the Grameen Foundation was established and I’ve supported them ever since.
it was awesome when Muhammad Yunus and the Grameen Bank won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006. And the way the aware was handled was nothing short of amazing. From Wikipedia:
Think about that for a moment. $20 was all it took.
I don’t think there has been a more deserving recipient of the prize since Norman Borlaug won back in 1970.
I remember that Nobel Prize well, BoxNDox. And as a feminist, I can also say that microfinance is one of the very best ways to achieve gender justice across the world.
P.L., I am also struggling with anger at people and institutions who are so lacking in human empathy that they are blaming the victims of this disaster. If your friend has any potential to be a fully-realized member of our species, you might try educating him. But at this point, I’m a little hair-trigger myself.
Some small rays of light:
The Carl Vincent will get there in the morning with 19 helicopters and 30 pallets of relief supplies.
Somebody else has thought of Cuba — and he’s a former assistant Sec Def!
The Air Force has managed to get air traffic control working (somewhat) at the airport in Port au Prince.
Leigh,
I don’t think my friend has much potential for empathy at this point. He has become increasingly right-wing the past few years and now self identifies as a libertarian.
It’s sorta good news that they’ve got some air traffic control up and running. I wonder what the state of rural air strips is?
netjeret, thanks for the heads-up about SalesForce.com. I directed a donation through them just now!
Oh, FFS. No.
No.
http://www.grassrootsonline.org/news/blog/tell-congress-urge-homeland-security-grant-temporary-protective-status-haitians
Pygmy Loris, I found this info on a message board:
The airstrip at Jacmel, on the northern coast, is only half as long as the one at Port au Prince.
The Carl Vincent is an aircraft carrier, but the amphibious group en route includes the Bataan, which also carries helicopters.
how so?
SC: What the hell? Am I so dramatically misinformed? (wouldn’t be the first time)
My best memory is of an article I read recently about women in Pakistan and, I think, sewing machines.
Is this what you’re talking about?
On the other hand:
http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/ghwee/fall%2005-135-mb/mb06-hw2-notes%20on%20the%20grameen%20bank.pdf
But I also found this study by an Oxford economist, which concludes that microcredit does nothing to advance women’s status in Pakistan.
So, I’m in the dark. Do you have references to enlighten me?
oy.
from link @ #355:
combine this with the quote from the Heritage Foundation, and… yeah. :-/
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10641.php
(No, not a great book. Doesn’t matter. We need people on the ground showing that capitalism provides a mechanism of women’s liberation? I think not.)
We need people on the ground showing that capitalism provides a mechanism of women’s liberation?
Reverse that.
thanks, SC. I’ll look into it.
SC:
Simple evolution over time in the Bible.
homicidal big-ass crazy wargod (Hebrews only) ->
purveyor of legal code (Israel only) ->
God of social justice (Israel only) ->
wise rabbi counseling social justice and love (Jews and Gentiles) ->
suffering servant to redeem humankind (the whole world) ->
God is Love (the whole world)
Like most liberal Christians, I leave the Revelation of John of Patmos off entirely, since he was a crazy man. My assumption — a big one — is that God has remained himself, but our ability to understand what he is has changed dramatically over time.
Voila! Pink and fluffy: my weak-ass attempt at humor, by which I mean the God of the Golden Rule who tells us to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly.
/derailment
No.
I’ve provided one (again, not great). Happy to provide more. Local capitalism will never promote feminism, and it’s naïve to think it will. There are, nonetheless, numerous feminist organizations in many countries that I’ll link to (Grassroots’ and PIH’s partners in Haiti among them).
So your god is of the new testament only. The old testament is total bullshit, and has nothing to do with you or your theology.* That it?
*I’m super-curious where “suffering servant to redeem humankind (the whole world)” comes from, if the OT is dismissed. Do explain, please.
Cute. In other words, shit you made up and are calling Christian. Defend your interpretation against others.
SC:
That’s actually impossible. And I wonder what you’d do otherwise.
And for most humans. Because we’re social fucking animals.
You have pretty much zero evidence this individual existed, never mind uttered these words. Even if you did, this would be a ludicrous and remarkably selfish basis for doing good things.
Argument by Capital Letters? Sad.
Verdammter blockquote fail. It’s bedtime.
For those who missed #333:
I will not participate in any more theological to-and-fro’ing on this thread.
I’m sure we’ll have many other opportunities to butt heads elsewhere.
What Christian denomination posits an entirely “pink and fluffy” god? Define this god and the basis for belief in it.
While SC coming after you can be an unsettling experience, that ad populum argument there was awfully weak.
No, your head is a little pile of mush on this subject, Leigh. You’re obviously a kind person, but there’s no reasoning with you when it comes to religion.
Have you ever met a religious person with whom that was possible ?
I wrote on this as well early Thursday. My concern is not with established douchenozzle Pat Robertson, so much, but with the apologetic and weak-willed response to this abhorrent trash by xtian and evangelical “middle management” types.
DONATE MONEY NOW
No, you’re right, neg. It’s always dancing around the issue.
Science works :
The Global Seismic Monitor system, based at the GFZ German Research Centre for Geosciences in Potsdam, puts this week’s Haïti earthquake at 17 km deep and at a magnitude of 7.2 !
sorry, here’s the correct link :
http://www.ig.utexas.edu/jsg/18_cgg/Mann3.htm
This earthquake reminds me, the dinosaurs, and those permian sea creatures, also once thought they were the pinnacle of creation….
We live on a very unforgiving earth, and no gods will come to our rescue when the plates decide to move !
Those religious nutcases tend to forget that homo sapiens sapiens’ own extinction event is only a statistical blip away.
SC, is it really necessary to be so hostile?
I don’t agree with Leigh’s religious beliefs (or with some of her political views, for that matter), but, from what I’ve seen, she’s a good-hearted, sensible, level-headed person. As long as she keeps her religion to herself and doesn’t try to inflict it on those around her, what is the point in attacking her?
This is why I don’t think “atheist activism” is per se worthwhile. We can, and should, campaign for proper science education, gay rights, women’s rights, secular government, and other issues of individual freedom. But Leigh actively supports all those things, too; and she seems to despise the religious right as much as anyone here does.
I’m as open and vocal about my atheism as anyone else, and I don’t believe that we should pay any kind of “lip service” to religion; I’m unequivocal about the fact that I don’t believe. But I don’t see the point in browbeating liberal and moderate religionists. Rather, the people we should attack are the various morons who turn up here advocating creationism, or opposing gay rights, or spewing racism or misogyny, or promoting “alternative therapies”, or otherwise spreading various brands of bullshit which actually harm people’s lives.
Walton,
while SC’s tone can be intimidating, she is right to point out that Leigh’s religious views are all mushy fluffy cloudy, and I dont see a problem with pointing that out.
You don’t have to like the tone, but it doesn’t change the truth value of what she points out.
[OT & meta]
Walton, I second you, even if from a different basis.
You see, I think “liberal and moderate religionists” are enablers for the more pernicious sort¹; on the other hand (as I’ve previously stated) I think Leigh is a net positive here, and that she is quite aware the basis for her admitted faith is quite idiosyncratic and unconvincing to anyone else.
I honestly agree with SC’s claim “your head is a little pile of mush on this subject, Leigh”, but I also agree with you (Walton) that this confrontational approach is not likely to be productive — for the reason I stated above, rather than yours.
—
¹ But then, Leigh does call them on their obnoxiousness in no uncertain terms!
(sigh)
I’ll also add my support for Walton @ #383. While I don’t think xianity, or any religious crap, is beneficial to anyone, Leigh at least has the decency not to proselytise, and appears in fact only to espouse what she believes when pushed on the issue,(as much as I disagree with what her religious faith is).
To be fair, i’m a relative newcomer to Pharyngula, but wouldn’t have guessed Leigh was even religious at all, except for when she replies to questions others ask of her. Most of the comments i’ve seen from her are usually succint and to the point, not to mention polite.
my penny worth anyway
the God of the Golden Rule who tells us to do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly. – Leigh Williams
If you’re talking about the god described in the Bible, he’s a real “Do what I say, not what I do” deity, then.
Come to think of it, why do you need a deity to tell you to do justice and love kindness? And what does “walking humbly” look like, and why is it supposed to be a good thing?
Damn – I’m surprised to see that I agree with Walton @383 on something, as well as Cunning @ 386. SC – you may be able to put an OM in your handle, but at times you appear to have a need to be unnecessarily confrontational.
The god of the NT is by no means pink and fluffy, even if you leave out the Revelation of St. John the Loony.
Jesus breaking up families:
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
Luke 5:8 When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus’ knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
5:9 For he was astonished, and all that were with him, at the draught of the fishes which they had taken:
5:10 And so was also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.
5:11 And when they had brought their ships to land, they forsook all, and followed him.
Luke 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
9:61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Jesus threatening those who dispute his claims:
Matthew 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet
10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 11:20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Jesus’s fits of temper:
Mark 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet
11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers,
11:16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
11:18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.
11:19 And when even was come, he went out of the city.
11:20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.
Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
3:30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
John 2:13 And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
See also the threats above.
Oh, and let’s not overlook the justification for 2,000 years of antisemitism:
Matthew 27:25 His blood be upon us and on our children
Good morning. OK, I’ll preface this by saying that I very much like Leigh (Scott Hatfield, too), even though I’m sure she doesn’t much care for me at the moment. Sorry, Leigh, if I was a bit belligerent last night. I won’t apologize, however, for any of the substance of what I said.
I didn’t approach Leigh on the street and demand that she defend her beliefs. She’s on an atheist blog where people’s statements are expected to be logical and supported with evidence. I believe it is immoral to espouse beliefs that are neither
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/fyi.php#comment-981847
and it most certainly does enable those who also hold unsupportable but more wicked beliefs.
I wouldn’t care particularly if Leigh said she believed in her own idiosyncratic pink and fluffy god if she didn’t claim that this was the Christian god. It isn’t. There’s no way to get a pink and fluffy god from the Bible. None. And her post above:
made no sense at all. On the one hand, it’s this Christian business of distancing themselves from the OT god, which sets me off because it contains a strong antisemitic current, even though I don’t believe at all that that’s what Leigh intends – “Our God isn’t that nasty Jewish/Hebrew god!” (Of course, they still make liberal use of those parts of the OT that they find convenient to believe, and also ignore the inconvenient aspects of the NT.) On the other, she then turns around and claims that it’s all the same god, they (the Jews, presumably?) just didn’t understand him. What? How does this make sense? If you call yourself a Christian, there’s no way to avoid confronting the god of the Bible.
BTW, gave up waiting for the Disasters Emergency Relief Committee in the UK to get its act together, and sent my contribution to MSF.
SC, OM…
I recently had this very problem in another thread with Leigh.
I caught a fair bit of flack for taking her to task about her religious beliefs because she seems so nice and otherwise rational and intelligent.
Too damn bad. It was her decision to add reference to her pink and fluffy imaginary friend in her comments. She’ll receive no special treatment from me because she’s reasonably amicable. You decide of your own free will to display your religious beliefs here, I’m going to take you to task on it, whether you’re a nice person or Bilbo…
It’s not as if SC or anyone else prompted Leigh in this thread out of the blue with “Hey, Leigh… aren’t you a believer? Well let me tell you how stupid that is”… Leigh regularly gets a pass around here because she “doesn’t proselytize”…
Well…
What kicked it all off in this thread is that Leigh was responding to a question about “why help if you can’t convert”, which wasn’t directed at her, with the following reply:
Which was the right answer and should have been left alone, as it was… but instead she decided to use the opportunity to expand on that thought and offer fluffy apologetics about how wonderful her religion is:
Bad enough… but she then follows it up with straight up sermonizing:
This is pretty damn close to proselytizing as far as I’m concerned.
She found a comment not directed at her and found it necessary to launch into a defense of her beliefs. That’s fair game for criticism around here, I’m pretty sure.
I will agree with others here that overall, Leigh’s presence is positive and welcome, but I refuse to apologize for taking her to task any time she decides to make her beliefs a part of the discussion. Nor should SC or anyone else.
I agree with Celtic_Evolution on both counts: Leigh is clearly a nice person, and does make a positive contribution here, but if she brings up her beliefs, should not expect or be given quarter!
CunningLingus #290
That happened to me. 1970, Afghanistan.
I was taken, delerious and lapsing in and out of consciousness, to an American mission hospital (the only one within miles). Assuming every UK citizen must be a Christian they asked me my denomination. I (foolishly) said “none”. They refused to treat me because I had “rejected Jesus as my saviour” and said they would only do so if I converted there and then. They did say that they would pray for my “soul”, which was nice of them.
Luckily for me, my travelling companion found a local doctor who kept me going until I could be flown back to the UK, where I spent 5 weeks in the Tropical Diseases Hospital in London.
I realise that not all missionary doctors abroad are like that, but too many are. I’ve since met some like that in other countries in Asia and Africa too. They openly admitted to me that their first priority is conversion. A “soul saved” is more important than a life saved.
There may be a problem here (besides distance, poor infrastructure, et al.). There’s a report that a key bridge was damaged and heavy convoys cannot cross. The Grauniad
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/14/haiti-aid-agencies-logistical-problem said:
In trying to find details/confirmation of this, I found
http://www.speroforum.com/a/25503/Dominican-Republic-blocking-Haitian-refugees (I have no idea of the reliability of that blog), which claims:
However, I’ve been unable to determine if that’s the road/bridge in question. Cap Haitien is in the north of Haiti. The final stretch of the road to Port-au-Prince appears to be also be a main route from the Dominican Republic…
On a different subject, Wikipedia says (giving The Washington Post as the source):
It’s my understanding there were over 200 Cuban doctors on the ground at the time of the ‘quake.
How could these slaves disobey Gods will, that they are to be slaves. So, logically, it must have been the devils temptation. Lots of progress in science and reason and civil and human rights, no doubt, but these assholes just dream with a deep desire from the wonderfull times in the dark ages. Well, sometimes I doubt if they have really passed.
” Mann kann nicht so viel essen, wie man kotzen möchte”
Sorry for my english.
Let us help as much as we can.
blf #395
Havana Times
Apparently the existing Cuban hospital was destroyed in the quake but they have built a temporary one, which has been operational for the last two days.
The Cuban “Henry Reeve Brigade” has a very good reputation working in disaster zones. “My” charity, SOS Children’s Villages (which was designated to care for all the children affected) worked closely with them in Kashmir after the earthquake there.
Thanks to all for their comments. SC, thanks for the apology; I was hair-trigger last night myself. If anyone wants to continue with it, let’s take the issue of Christianity in general and mine in particular over to the endless thread, where I will, as soon as I can and if you want, discuss it at more length. I have been busy in meatspace today (had to work) and am about to head out the door for family obligations.
In the short amount of time available to me today, I’ve looked for even a tiny bit of good news from Haiti. The closest I’ve come is that many of the rural hospitals are structurally undamaged, though they’re overwhelmed with patients. NPR said this morning that trauma surgical teams will be arriving today and tomorrow; perhaps they will be able to operate out of these hospitals . . . if we have enough helicopters to use for medevac.
blf, thanks for the good news about Cuban cooperation.
Today:
http://www.democracynow.org/
It’s just…terrible.
***
I think part of the reason I responded so strongly to Leigh here was that in conjunction with the discussion of Robertson’s remarks her portrayal of her pink and fluffy Christian god reminded me of an earlier discussion with heddle which was upsetting to me. (I cannot find it, for some reason; if anyone remembers the thread and can link to it I’d really appreciate it.) He was defending Biblical genocide as forming part of his god’s redemptive plan. When I expressed my disgust, people pointed out that at least he was being consistent, which is more than can be said for Leigh-like Christians, and that this was in some ways better. I still think his attitude is worse, but Leigh’s is fundamentally dishonest. That and the antisemitic undertone of those ideas do make me angry. My comments expressed that anger, and were not part of any “approach” from which I expected positive results.
That said, the pile-of-mush thing was uncalled-for.
That said, Eidolon can bite me. :)
SC,
Are you thinking of this thread?
Posted by: Leigh Williams | January 15, 2010 5:43 PM
Posted by: SC OM | January 15, 2010 5:43 PM
Wow. Strange.
Yes! Thank you!
[OT]
Leigh @398, your offer is gratefully accepted.
Bumbling idiot, former USAmerican President W was just on CNN live, and he had the audacity to mention Katrina. The contrast in Clinton and Obama’s abilities to eloquently express themselves with W’s incapacity to speak let alone think was never made clearer.
Latest update from PIH:
Please keep giving.
@#392
Not for nothing, but it seems like the original question was “Why help if you can’t convert”.
It seems to me that Leigh was only trying to say that not all “Christian” groups help for the sole purpose of proselytizing, but because of the reasons she gave.
IE, she wasn’t doing it to proselytize, but specifically to point out that these are the “values” that give her reason to help without converting.
If one can’t explain what they believe (even if they don’t provide a logical basis for believing), how can they even get to a point of defending?
I believe religion should be fought, and fought on all fronts. However, I don’t particularly think it’s wise to tie the opponents hands and gag them first. Doing things like that might very well skew the perception of atheist/agnosticism in people further than it already is. There’s being aggressive, there’s being outspoken, these are fine concepts. The fact of the matter however is that a debate always needs two sides, lest it not become debate.
I’d rather hear Leigh’s view and have a chance to dissect it than have it suppressed.
Just my 2c. Which still counts for roughly 2c around here.
Feel free to rip me a new one :P. I’m expecting it.
Jadehawk re: “I see the JW-troll run away from our discussion when it got too hot, just to infest another thread with his [her] idiocy.”
miss me? =)
I didn’t run, but I’ve been a bit preoccupied (especially with all the news going on in Haiti) And after responding to your post on this thread, (which I’ll do in just a bit), I definitely want to get back to the conversation about blood that we were having on the other thread…not for the sake of religion…but for the sake of modern medicine and science.
(Since this is a science blog afterall), and the mainstream media really should give more attention to it, especially since there have been so many great advances made in that field in recent years, in regards to alternative treatment options now available,…which many religious and non-religious individuals alike, are choosing *strictly* for health reasons.
So it would be nice if you and knockgoats didn’t call me “a filthy liar” without allowing me to present the secular/medical side first, (as well as the Biblical perspective).
Call me a crazy religious nutjob all you want, but I’m not a liar.
KLT:
No. It’s PZ’s personal blog, one of a number of blogs in an organisation called ScienceBlogs.
Or, more succinctly, it’s PZ’s soapbox. Many posts have nothing to do with science.
since this isn’t going to be about Haiti, take your presentation to the Open Thread. Skip the biblical perspective; I’ll gladly look at any citations from PubMed or other sources of peer-reviewed science about anything you want to show us. If you don’t have anything from the scientific literature, please don’t bother.
John Morales re: “No. It’s PZ’s personal blog, one of a number of blogs in an organisation called ScienceBlogs.”
Oh I see. I didn’t realize that since I haven’t really checked out the other blogs, only PZ’s.
JadeHawk re: “since this isn’t going to be about Haiti, take your presentation to the Open Thread.”
…ok thanks I will.
Re: “people need counseling in such hard times, that’s true. But religious counseling is no better at this than secular counseling. And what’s better about secular counseling is that it is there only when people want and need it, and it teaches people to stand up on their own feet eventually.”
I want to clarify what I mentioned about praying or offering words of comfort based on what a few other posters mentioned in regards to “making converts during a disaster”.
I don’t want you to think that’s what I meant. If I was at a disaster site and a person was obviously opposed to religion or the Bible I would never overstep their personal feelings and force religion down their throat. That would make me feel weird and creepy…I’m not a salesman or an ambulance chaser. =)
What I meant was that *in addition* to making sure a person’s physical needs are being addressed, there are many people who want or need that type of spiritual consolation since every person has a unique emotional makeup and every individual has different needs based on their personality type and upbringing. So, I was referring more to those type of people…the ones who find comfort in hearing the Bible or having a prayer said in their behalf, since it’s a source of *familiarity* to them, at a time when their entire world has just been turned upside down and they are feeling very unsure and fragile…those are the people who derive the most benefit.
Not everyone has that natural ability or gift to be able to speak consolingly or find the right words to say to someone in a situation like that, so sometimes hearing a very poignant Scriptural passage which expresses the deep sorrow or grief of another person helps, since they can *identify* with that persons pain. (such as in the book of Lamentations, Proverbs, or Psalms…like when David was a fugitive on the run from King Saul who was trying to kill him and he felt trapped and all alone, etc)
Re: “well, aren’t you a condescending little shit. what do you think, that your missionaries are the only groups that have been there already, before the disaster?…And they’ve been doing this for years, selflessly…”
I definitely didn’t mean to sound condescending. There are awesome groups like Doctors Without Borders etc and others who are secular-based. What I meant was it bothers me so much when people die ‘senselessly’ or because of negligence on the part of government agencies and largely-funded (religious or secular) organizations who didn’t take proper precautionary measures, and who then try to ‘grandstand’ or ‘milk’ the situation by calling attention to themselves for tv ratings or whatever (even though they could have largely prevented the disaster from occuring in the first place) So my comment about Pat Robertson wasn’t directed towards any of the groups you mentioned who are really there trying to help the people.
But efficiency and a high level of organization and cooperation are crucial in situations like these. Now I can’t speak for other groups, but I know for a fact that members of my religion are very good at coordinating relief supplies and getting them to the people quickly. Many times they arrive ahead of the military.
As you can see in this report they were getting supplies (food, water and clothing) into the country, beginning the very next day after the earthquake and coordinating with our branch office in the Dominican Republic, etc.
When lack of cooperation and organization delays the arrival of relief supplies, valuable time is lost and lives are lost. So even though people make fun of how literal JW’s take Jesus’ words about “signs of the Last Days,” (like Great Earthquakes) they don’t play Russian Roulette with people’s lives by chancing safety…they go to extra lengths to make sure the buildings are up to code and structurally sound.
For instance, when our earthquake-proof branch facilities in Haiti were being constructed they were criticized at the time for being “overbuilt” … but those buildings survived the earthquake and are still standing and undamaged… and now they, along with some of the Kingdom Halls in Haiti, are being utilized as make-shift hospitals and relief supply centers because some of the big hospitals have collapsed.
There would not be so many lost lives and orphaned children right now if those buildings were up-to-code and structurally sound…that’s what bothers me.
And it’s not like JW’s are a big religion with a huge piggybank like some of these other religions or agencies. We are non-profit as well, and don’t charge or tithe our members…everything is supported by voluntary contributions to the worldwide work.
But many of these other governmental agencies or religious groups (especially televangelists) make me so mad because they rake in huge amounts of money from members and fundraisers throughout the year, yet they aren’t doing their job to help the people by taking the proper precautions in these poverty striken lands (like Haiti), which are prone to earthquakes and/or other natural disasters.
Because what about the next time an earthquake or other natural disaster happens? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure (as they say) and when lives hang in the balance, that’s a very big deal.