The physicist Stephen Hawking has been hospitalized, a serious business for a 67 year old man with ALS. We should all hope for the best, but don’t pray — we shall trust in modern medicine and science, and the stamina of a man who has demonstrated remarkable persistence in the face of daunting health problems.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
I just posted this on my blog, http://www.TheNewAtheist.com … Professor Hawking is a personal hero of mine, as I’m sure he is of many Pharyngula readers. My thoughts (but not prayers) are with him, and I hope he recovers soon. Thanks.
I can’t help but think of his great work on some of my favorite TV shows:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/45662/the-simpsons-drinking-with-stephen-hawking
All the best to him. ALS is a terrible disease, and he’s lived a long time with it. Here’s to him living a long time more.
Ah, even Nietzsche said it wasn’t a shame for all to pray. Not many theists here, I’d think, but if they want to pray, I’m fine with that.
Not that we’d have any business exhorting them to pray.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Kip Thorne needs to get working on that time machine–pronto!!!
Wait. So it needs to be explicitly requested for people to NOT pretend they are communicating to a magical all powerful imaginary keeper?
Damn. This sucks.
Lousy news. Hang in there Mr. Hawking.
My best hopes for Mr. Hawking and his family.
It is a quibble, but it seems a little odd to say, “We shall trust in modern medicine and science.” It seems to suggest that if a patient dies, modern medicine and science have let us down.
I promise I won’t pray, I’ll use the line that outs me as an atheist to so many: “I’ll be thinking about you.”
I got to meet him a year ago – through a mutual friend. I’m hoping for the best. What fantastic contributions from someone with such physical limitations.
My best wishes to Professor Hawking.
Sobering news to see this morning. I hope Mr. Hawking is able to pull through.
I pretty much never offer to pray for folks any more, even though my relatives often send letters round mentioning who is sick and who they put on the prayer roll recently. Like Crystal, I usually say, “You’re in my thoughts,” or “My thoughts are with you,” or occasionally, my inner hippie used to send “good vibes” (even though that’s full of woo, the sentiment is the same–but I’ve been using it less of late because of the woo-factor).
Speaking of TV shows.
This is sad, but I hope for the best. I really wish he had built that robotic exoskeleton:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39133
“Also, there appears to be some sort of trouble on the moon.”
Just today i bought one of his books i didn’t own yet. While reading it tonight i’ll think of him. I really hope he’ll get better and stays with us a bit longer.
If anyone deserves a chance to keep on going, Dr. Hawking is definitely someone that gets my vote. He has so much left to do. Surviving this long with ALS is remarkable, we must hope a this infection doesn’t get the best of him. I wish him the best of luck and look forward to reading his about his work for years to come (the parts of it that I understand anyway)!
Over at talkingpointsmemo I saw these paired headlines:
‘Very Ill’ Stephen Hawking Rushed To Hospital
Major Stock Indexes Drop Over 3%
If only we lived in a world where such headlines could be assumed to be related to each other.
A great man. Even if in recent years he’s cast doubt on some of his own work, I admire him for the honesty. (Show me a major religious leader who would do that!) And, anyway, he has contributed so much to the overall way we think about the universe that whether he is right or wrong about black holes becomes largely insignificant.
I wish him the best; and, no, I won’t taint that by offering to pray for him.
Come on, Hawking! Kick death’s ass one more time!
If you could live through Thatcher’s reign, you can live through this.
I hope for his swift recovery. He’s a most remarkable human and there are too few like him as it is.
Hasn’t it though, in a way? I don’t think that it’s wrong to say that as long as anyone dies of an illness, that is in some sense a failure of modern medicine. But only in the sense that we ought to strive to eliminate disease and maybe even death. That’s not to say that we will ever reach such an ideal situation, or that our methods are wrong if we don’t. But failure does not have to imply blame. It’s simply one more reason to work even harder.
Re “We shall trust in modern medicine and science.” It seems to suggest that if a patient dies, modern medicine and science have let us down.
We trust in the practitioners of modern medicine and science to do their best for him is, I think, the intent.
This is definitely sad news. I wish him the best and hope he recovers, but any pneumonia strong enough to hospitalize you at 67 is never good news, much less if you have ALS. Also, if we’re all atheists here (or the majority)and for the right reason (i.e. rationalists), then there’s really no need to request that we don’t pray. It’s kind of insulting to suggest we’re that weak-minded.
No muttering to ceiling cat? OK: I shall cross my fingers, hold my thumb, rub my lucky charm, and sacrifice a chicken for his prompt recovery.
He’s bucked the odds for a long time — let’s hope he does it once more.
If he dies, is the information in his mind lost to the universe?
I read A Brief History of Time in ninth grade. Like most people during that time I was confused, insecure and uncertain as to what direction I wanted to take with my life. The book was fascinating and I couldn’t put it down. I didn’t understand everything (the spin stuff was just weird), but what I did understand made me only more curious. The book helped remind me during that rough time of my love of the natural world. It was a compass pointing me in the right direction.
I hope you get well Stephen Hawking.
He’s a fighter and, I would hope, has some of the best medical folks working with him. Whenever I think of Dr. Hawking, I remember his cameo on “Star Trek” where he’s playing poker and it makes me smile.
All in all he’s a had a good one, hasn’t he?
Many people more fit than he have died younger.
I hope the best for him, but losing him will not make my world stand still. (Unless of course, solipsism is true and we all live in prof Hawking’s brain.)
Emmet, OM – *gasp* A chicken sacrifice?!
I’m sure that modern medicine and science have extended Prof. H’s life by many decades so-far and I hope it will continue to do so. Even without such a debilitating condition, all our lives are extended and enriched by science.
Also, thanks to Pionde @25 for the insightful question, and helping us see the funny side.
Very sad news, but he’s been counted out prematurely before, so I’m still hoping for the best.
I’m hoping for the best. He’s an amazing man. Ian’t it enough we lost George Carlin this last year?
It would be a shame if we lost one of the greatest minds in science today. I hope he pulls through.
PZ,
Are you afraid that praying might have some negative affect?
I had a brief interaction with Hawking about 15 years ago. It will always be one of the highlights of my life.
He was surrounded by people who were talking very fast and seemingly trying to “out-intellectualize” each other. I leaned over to his ear and told him how much I enjoyed his appearance on Star Trek. He gifted me with a broad and genuine smile. A big guy demanded to know what I said to him. I winked at Mr Hawking and told the big guy it was “between me and Stephen”. Then Mr Hawking gave me another huge smile. It was so nice!
@34:
I assume you mean other than being a complete waste of time.
All the best to him. ALS is a terrible disease, and he’s lived a long time with it. Here’s to him living a long time more.
I concur. I’d like to point out that Hawking is an unbelievable outlier where ALS survivorship is concerned. This link puts that act in stark perspective.
As for how to respond, I’ll take part of your advice, PZ. You might want to consider rephrasing it ironically, as in ‘I pray you not to bother with prayer’, or some such. Though it raises a question: if (as I think it is) inherently ghoulish for some Christian partisans to milk tragedy for the benefit of their beliefs, how far can a non-believer go in commenting on the health or passing of another?
It’s a legitimate question, not meant to be inflammatory. I’ve chuckled more than once at Kristine Harley’s wit when apprised of the passing of Jerry Falwell, even though I know it would horrify many of my fellow Christians. I guess there is a time and a place for everything.
Emmet @ 24:
Extra Crispy, or Original Recipe?
Bah! I don’t care what you forshak-hut dwelling yIntaghs say, I am praying to Kahless AND the milk jug!!!
(Seriously though, get well soon, professor.)
Speaking of hardships, I just saw this over at digg.
Cicely, are you trying to egg him on?
Here’s hoping that the good professor pulls through. Hawking has also been a voice on the Simpsons.
Patricia, how about Emmet sacrifices the nearest rooster to your pullets?
There are days where Stephen Hawking is the only reason why I love living at the time that I do. He brings a lot of excitement to this generation.
“We should all hope for the best, but don’t pray”
Agree, but I recently realized that there is some value to praying.
The recent story about the passenger landing the twin engine turboprop after the pilot died illustrates this point. The passenger-turned-pilot told the other passengers to pray, which served a very specific, albeit unintentional, point:
It got them to stay the hell out of his way.
I suspect in many time-critical situations where people panic, feeling the need to help but unable to do anything productive, having them pray helps the competent people get their jobs done without a bunch of terrified bystanders getting in the way.
Professor Hawkings was raised with a Christian up-bringing and has had profound influence in understanding origins as it applies ot creation. I would be foolish NOT to pray for one of God’s most amazing men.
I ag-ree with rebecca, I especially like the part in Genesis 3:24 where it talks about hawking radiation with regard to information es-caping from a black hole.
Very unwelcome news. I’ll be keeping you in my calculations Dr.Hawking!
LOL @ 46
You own the thread, dude
Plenty of ATHEISTS have had a Christian upbringing. I doubt any of them would feel the need for us to pray for them.
The man should be an inspiration to all. What stamina and drive. Amazing: The power of human aspiration.
I saw this story on the news on the overhead TV screen while working out in the gym. After spending about 10 seconds on the story, they cut away to spend twice as much time on Madonna’s horseback-riding booboo.
Now I know why I despise TV news so much.
Grow up Rebecca. It’s time to let go of your imaginary sky-friend. That’s not how reality works, and just because you talk at it and you think it listens, doesn’t make it real.
rholihan @45:
I think, since some of his ancestors were animists, we should all sacrifice goats to promote his recovery. It’s definitely the evil-eye making him (more) ill.
@43:
I wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for antibiotics (several life-threatening infections.) Or at least I wouldn’t be a guitar player (would have lost my right arm at least.) We now have an intelligent, competent, moral man named Barack Obama in the White House. Norm Coleman is not returning to the US Senate from MN. I can think of lots of other reasons I like it here, now …
Whatever happens, Professor Hawking, I’ll be thinking about you.
A couple of points…
1) Hawking does not have ALS! If he did, he’d be dead by now. Without fail ALS kills you within 3-5 years, no exceptions. He has some weird form of motor neuron dysfunction, but don’t call it ALS because it’s not ALS.
2) IMHO the guy is a complete jerk. From parading down the middle of the street stopping traffic on a Saturday afternoon in Cambridge just because he loves the attention of tourists, to the whole thing of dumping his wife so he can get laid with his secretary, he’s a giant sleazeball. Yes, he’s a good physicist, but as a person he’s a jerk.
The spousal equivalency unit and I had the pleasure of hearing him speak on his “Nutshell” tour. His ability to bring an understanding of astrophysics to the layperson is a gift that few have.
I am very surprised he has laasted this long, and yet his great brain has endured much longer than his wracked body. At his death he should be sucked up by a black hole,a fitting conclusion to a mind devoted to understanding this phenomena. An event horizon awaits him. Too bad he couldn’t leave his brain to science, or perhaps he already has. Good luck Stephen.
The Beeb reports “Leading scientist Stephen Hawking’s condition has “improved” after being admitted to hospital with chest problems, Cambridge University says.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8008767.stm
If there’s nothing you can do, and you feel that way inclined, then pray. Prayer isn’t a bad way to vocalise your thoughts and express your feelings. And it does no harm.
It’s the people who can do things that shouldn’t pray – like pilots who are about to crash their plane.
Personally, if I was theisticly inclined, I’d use the fact that Stephen Hawking has survived so long with his condition, and that despite his handicap he has contributed so much, as a sign of a miracle.
Incorrect. 50% of ALS sufferers survive 3 years or more from diagnosis, 20% survive 5 years or more, 10% survive 10 years or more and 5% survive more than 20 years. In some sufferers the progression of the disease stops and may never cause their death.
Kevin.
I’m just hoping he’ll be around longer, to keep giving us all inspratlon, both as a scientist and as a human!
Robert,
Thanks.
It seems ludicrous that someone would find prayer an offense. I have personally seen so many people healed when medical doctors said that there was nothing else they could do. They call it a miracle… not unlike what would have been said by other great minds like Einstein and Godel… “all the rest are details.” I am praying for a miracle for Dr. Hawkings.
@ #56- Hawking has lateral neuromuscular atrophy, which is basically the same thing as ALS. The specific differences are the reason why he has lived this long (sorry, but I have no idea of the differences). And to your other point, even the handicapped are allowed to be a-holes.
I am reminded of a discussion a few freethinker friends and I engaged in following Douglas Adams’ death. How many Gen-X’ers became non-theists because a (dare I call it unholy?) mixture of Adams, Dawkins, Sagan, Terry Pratchett, and Hawking? Even better, the number of books you read by each altered the “type” of atheism you held.
RobertDW @ 60
It does no harm; the important thing is if it does any good. No, it does neither when you apply it in words. But if applied in a hospital instead of medical care, then it most assuredly will do harm and even you will not render such a risk to health and life, or would you to test your faith? Stephen Hawking’s longevity has nothing to do with a miracle, but just the body’s ability to maintain itself with the aid of medicines.
Oh, you think pilots who are about to crash should not pray?
Why? Is it perhaps because most imminent crashes are definitely going to occur and praying would be useless, thereby rendering prayers to nothing would be admitting that they are all insane bullshit? I’ll bet you did not expect this reply to deflate your god embalment.
rebecca @63 wrote, “It seems ludicrous that someone would find prayer an offense.”
If you don’t want to help, that’s okay. But don’t claim that praying actually helps anything. It actually does quite the opposite.
1. Person feels obligated to help.
2. Person prays.
3. Prayer relieves obligation.
4. Person does not help.
If they did not pray, they would still feel some personal obligation to help, and *gasp* might actually do something productive.
It is not the prayer, per se, that is offensive, just the hypocrisy.
That’s a trick question Nerd. Very naughty. The Pullet Patrol has never even seen a rooster.
They’d probably all swoon, silly cluckheads.
If it’s ok to pray, is it also ok to do a rain dance for the thirsty?
First, don’t pray for Dr. Hawking, because Thor is imaginary, just like the other Deities. Second, don’t pray for Dr Hawking, because studies have shown that prayer not only doesn’t work, but that the prayed for often do worse than the not-prayed-for! (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece )
Oh, wait!
First, Get well soon, Dr Hawking!
the other stuff is 2nd and 3rd.
Hey,
I am at the hospitals and at hospice weekly called by doctors and people who know that prayer works, I have hundreds come to me for prayer weekly. I head up a healing ministry where countless people DO get healed. It not only helps… it changes lives…Hardly a hypocrite… is your avatar really “paranoid”? Well that says it all…
rebecca holihan #63 wrote:
And this happens with — or without — prayer. And there are also people whom the doctors say will recover, who unexpectedly relapse and die. Whether they were prayed for, or not, makes no difference. People throw the word “miracle” around rather easily, but only when they are pleased. It is also a ‘miracle’ when the bullet barely nicks the heart in the one and only spot that happens to be fatal.
The difference, many people of faith admit, is not about the outcome, but takes place in the minds and attitude of the people praying. If they pray only for the strength to accept whatever happens, then I think this is really no different than atheists internally striving for the same thing. It’s a meditation technique.
But there’s a dark side to the view that your prayer has “helped” your love one survive. You create for yourself a story where your humility, or anguish, or piety, persuaded God to grant your request, using your loved one as a tool to make a theological point to you. And, at the same time, you create a million stories where people just as humble, agonized, or pious as you, pray and are given no such favor. Their loved one dies, and God does not intervene. Another theological point.
It is one thing to blame death on chance, or accident, or circumstances. It is another thing to blame the death of someone you love on you not having sufficiently cringed and toadied and begged for a miracle. Those who credit their prayers for healing the sick — put this burden on the heads of those who mourn the dead.
A few medical comments: To Alex #40 that’s a cutaneous horn. It is usually associated with actinic keratosis or basal cell carcinoma but can be seen with a huge variety of other benign and malignant skin conditions. To Mr. Smith #61: The natural history of ALS is median survival between 3 and 5 years. (this is not the same thing as all dead within 5 years). People like Prof Hawking can live much longer due to physiological (primarily respiratory and nutritional) support systems and dedicated caregivers. The ALS itself is not treatable. There are also other kinds of motor neuron disease that can mimic ALS, but my best guess is that the diagnosis is correct. In medicine (a statistical science as all sciences are), very unlikely outcomes are routinely chalked up to miracles if they are good and to malpractice if they are bad.
*shrug*
Have any evidence that you can share with us that prayer specifically has affected the healing of these people?
Oh, and if you have any who are amputees, that would rock.
Hey rebecca, shouting it from the hill tops won’t make it true. There are well organized studies that show prayer does not work.
It is delusional to think that you actually talk to a deity – a thing that has no parallel in reality, and no evidence to support it. Yet you are certain that not only is this deity-thingy real, it actually listens and responds to your whimperings. Wow.
I understand your “theory determines your observation” as Einstein said. It is sad to hear from so many who have such theories that lead to so little faith an assume the worse of others. I find it note worthy that a simple kind act could cause so much hostility in others. I’m sure it is because all of you have had So many amazing prayer experiences that you are experts in your observation. The poor quality of such psychology is just a clear indication of the lack of wonderful observations of miracles. I will also keep all of you in prayer…
rebecca holihan #70 wrote:
No. You cannot say with any confidence that you have “healed” anyone with prayer. You can of course talk about providing comfort, or company, or wonderful and necessary emotional support — if people say that you helped them this way, then you did.
But (if I understand you correctly) the “healing” claim is a different sort of claim, and requires objective measures and controls. You do not know what would have happened without the prayer: personal experience is therefore not a reliable guide. We are biased to find evidence for what we expect to confirm, and ascribe the benefits to what we focus on. People “heal” from illnesses all the time, on their own, or because of medical treatment. You would need to weed out those possibilities to say that no, it was your ministry prayers.
Your healing ministry may sooth a lot of people, and do good that way, but don’t become arrogant enough to think that you (and others who are committed to finding positive outcomes) can discern physical (as opposed to psychological) effects from prayer in uncontrolled personal experience. Keep in mind that you’re actually making a testable claim — and one that has been tested, and failed.
I find it note worthy that a
simpleuselesskindpious act could cause so much hostility in others.There becca. I fixed your sentence.
I would speculate that if prayer did work, it would have been militarized ages ago.
What hostility? Ye of little faith. If you have lots of people that have been healed by prayer, your prayer, then surely you have kept records or something, right? If you have wonderful observations of miracles, surely you’ve written them down somewhere? I mean, they’re miracles! I mean, if you watched someone turn water into wine, you’d probably mention it in your diary that night as a notable memory of the day, yes?
rebecca holian -should that be “holy”
Your prayers are as effective as my walking to the great Andromeda Galaxy. Can your prayers send me on my way, and how will I know when I get there? Get real; you are never going to have a insane supplication to a non-existent thing answered in any way, shape or delirium.
You are now quoting the Bible at me? Interesting…
And, I predict, not knowing anything at all about me, you would immediately find that strange why?
Holbach,
I’m not sure she’ll understand your post. It doesn’t sound like she’s a very sophisticated traveler.
rebecca holihan #75 wrote:
No, you don’t understand. The problem isn’t that we haven’t experienced ‘the power of prayer’ for ourselves. The problem is that personal experience — even our own — should not convince or persuade us, or anyone. It is too easy to make errors. It wouldn’t matter how many hundreds of times we thought we saw it ‘work.’
We are not being mean (well, mostly not.) We are being properly cautious. It is because of the tendency for “theory determines observations” that we need the controls of science. Its methods help us to prevent our ‘theories’ from coloring our observations in ways that favor our expectations.
Rebecca,
Many of us here are quite familiar with the contents of that book. Your stereotyping is spot-on by the way.
And we all know what happened last time the Christians prayed/danced for rain–they got hit by a hurricane. Is that proof prayers can backfire if they aren’t done correctly?
This conversation started with the love of a great scientist. All of you who are trying so hard to sound clever ask yourself, what would Newton, Kepler Einstein and others say? As you make fun of what is beyond your imagination, those with an imagination dreamed and believed with brilliance beyond the empirical…If it is such an insignificant subject, mathematically, your personal responses have proven otherwise.
Not unless they’ve stuck in a verse that says “don’t be so sanctimonious, you credulous ignoramus” since the last time I looked.
ORLY?
Engrish prease.
Analisus: ur doin it rong.
One of the better sceptic sites on the issue of prayer and healing is: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm
Rebecca Holihan wrote (about Paranoid Android):
LMAO! Try reading some Douglas Adams and/or listening to Radiohead’s OK Computer, ignoramus. Then, at least, the only thing we’ll be inclined to mock you for is your adherence to nonsensical bronze-age superstition.
Not unless they’ve stuck in a verse that says “don’t be so sanctimonious, you credulous ignoramus” since the last time I looked.
Well, Matthew comes pretty close to that, in a few parts of the Sermon on the Mount:
Oh come on. Do you really think that we’re not interested in the answers to our questions? Nice stereotyping. You folks always are good at that. Nice to see that you as well fit the bill. And if you don’t think that Newton and Kepler would have been asking you questions about your claims, then I suspect you know very little of them.
Think honestly about this scenario, Rebecca: I tell you that I’ve found a book at the corner bookshop that has this weird incantation in it, one which promises to cure pet ailments. You know that my cat has feline leukemia. I come to you a month later and tell you that I chanted the words from the book over my cat every day since I saw you last and that I have an appointment with the vet tomorrow. I see you the next day and the vet is astonished! There is no trace of the virus. I swear up and down that I know that the incantation is responsible for my pet’s new good health.
Being honest with yourself now, will you simply accept my explanation for what happened? Would you not even ask to see the book?
Now that’s slicing like a hammer.
rebeccaholian @ 87
You are the one who intruded religious nonsense into the topic by implying that the unknown hand of nothing directs our lives if only supplicated in the irrational grovelling of prayer. Prayers and gods are beyond our imagination, and it does not take a lot of brilliance to substantiate nonsense. Our brains are our brilliant imagination, and they know when something that does not exist in spite of the empirical claim of the religious afflicted. Without our brains nothing is imagined or beyond.
rfebecca hollihan #87 wrote:
Since we are applying scientific reasoning and skepticism to an extraordinary claim, they would probably approve. So, I assume, would Stephen Hawking.
The scientists you cite did not dream “beyond the empirical.” On the contrary. They used their imaginations to posit ideas that could be tested — which means, they could have found out that they were wrong. Their beliefs did not rest on the “faith” that knows for itself because of personal experience, and which can’t be shaken: they went beyond that, and applied discipline and rigor and humility in a way, that was quite, quite beautiful.
Are you willing to test your ideas about “healing” — set up a proper, controlled series of experiments, and accept a negative result if need be? If not, then don’t wax eloquent over those who did, and try to place some sort of claim on them because they “dreamed.”
Naturally, I was distressed to hear that Stephen Hawking is going through a bad patch. He currently holds what is thought to be the world record survival for longevity with ALS. And yes, there are variations of ALS with different survival rates. But to state flatly that there are no exceptions to the life expectation projections is ridiculous. I know this, of course, because the husbeast has ALS and it WILL kill him by-and-by (if his heart does not give out first). He is what is called a slow progressor with limb onset; this is the category that tends to have the longest survivors. He has had it at least six years, maybe longer, and he does not even have respiratory complications – yet. He can still drive a car, and does the household cooking. Every time he shows a new deficit, I run out and buy whatever gizmo will help him compensate. So far, so good. When he is no longer able to do the cooking, I am screwed. Life is good.
Ah, Lee, sorry to hear that.
Steven Hawking, I have hope for your recovery.
If they did not pray, they would still feel some personal obligation to help, and *gasp* might actually do something productive.
This is a false dichotomy. Some theists do pray about things like world hunger, and yet also donate money to things like Heifer Project International, which is a tangible contribution to promoting sustainability in the Third World.
Some atheists give lip service to caring about their fellow human beings, but who wouldn’t lift a finger, much less write a check to help anyone in the Third World. Neither the theist or the atheist has cornered the market: either on hypocrisy, or on charity.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are the world’s greatest philanthropists, but I don’t think it’s because they are non-believers. It’s because they want to make a difference, and are willing to do something tangible to make it happen.
Subtlety is my forté.
Lee, that sucks. Sending you good thoughts.
Let’s all just hope for a quantum leap that will turn the infection into spice melange, so that Dr Hawking may take his final form of Ultra Dr Hawking (with the glowing blue eyes, of course). At least that would make sense.
Seriously though, he’s my hero, and he should live. the spice thing would be a bonus.
Let’s all just hope for a quantum leap that will turn the infection into spice melange, so that Dr Hawking may take his final form of Ultra Dr Hawking (with the glowing blue eyes that come with the package, obviously). At least that would make sense.
Seriously though, he’s my hero, and he should live. the spice thing would be a bonus.
Sorry about the double post.
Yeah, and then a christofascist moron named rebecca showed up and started ranting and raving.
Don’t you have anything better to do then show xianity’s benign side by being an idiot and disrupting a thread? Guess not. Now for the finale, the troll mantra:
All you baby killing, pseudointellectual, cannibalistic atheists are going to hell. Insert your favorite death threats here.
OK becky, cut and paste it and you are done. With time left over to bomb a family planning clinic or assassinate a few MDs.
Wow, I have been reading these blogs for some time to just try to understand your minds. A few things that I have observed:
1) The VERY FEW posters that are believers that do post are always courteous and never attack anyone.
2) The posters that are believers, are automatically called
“Trolls” and are insulted and verbally abused.
Why is that ?? Why do all of you feel so threated by posters that do believe?
One more thing I would like to ask all of you …
Do you believe that a man or woman that believes in God and in the bible are PLAIN STUPID ? Please answer that question, I’m curious to know.
Have a good day.
Sastra @96:
That has been done. Conclusions? Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG (coronary artery bypass graft), but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications. Emphasis mine, of course. If you have access to the actual paper, it is quite interesting.
But you have asked the prime question: can the religidiots accept a negative result if that comes up as a result of an empirical study? I submit to you that most such people cannot.
But Rebecca Hollihan served a very important purpose here (may be, this was god’s will? Gasp!). At least, now the regular pharyngulites can stop baring their fangs at each other, and go play with the
trollpious poster a little bit, until dinnertime.“Do you believe that a man or woman that believes in God and in the bible are PLAIN STUPID ? Please answer that question, I’m curious to know.”
Honestly? Yes.
But that’s just me.
@107:
Short answer: YES.
And intellectually blind, too. Not to mention the arrogance and self-serving smugness that some of them display.
And, of course, there are quite a few that are not quite compos mentis, if you know what I mean.
The ONLY honorable exception to that crowd I have ever seen at this blog is Mr. Scott Hatfield. He keeps his science and his religion completely separate (though the wilful cognitive dissonance would have burst my brains, but then he is a better, stronger man than I am!).
The rest – deserve every epithet thrown at them.
Anonymous #107 wrote:
No. We think they are mistaken — and we are prepared to argue that point, the same way we will argue over science or politics.
There is a tendency for cultures to over-estimate the importance of being courteous, and be swayed by smooth speakers. In the context of debate, it really shouldn’t matter one way or the other. It’s not a popularity contest, or even a political venue. The issue matters.
No, they are usually very offensive. They presume that since they believe in god and the bible they are superior to us, and it shows in their posts. They presume that their logic is always correct, so they don’t take getting refuted either. The also say inane things like “I’ll pray for you”, which to an atheist is the same as saying “fuck you”, and we often return the favor. If they were polite, they would avoid the above.
and just when rebeca runs out of heavenly puff and concern troll turns up as anonymous to tell us off. Gee neva seen that before.
BTW best wishes lee, stay strong.
Oh, boy. With an intro like that, I will predict that the “observations” will be grade-A wrong.
Yep, two patently counterfactual statements. Why’d you start off your post with a flagrant lie, Anonymous? Did you think those of us who actually do read this blog wouldn’t notice you lying?
Typical fundie xian post:
All you baby killing, pseudointellectual, cannibalistic atheists are going to hell. < <<>>>
The average fundie xian post usually starts by telling everyone they are going to hell along with some insults as above. Frequently they start rambling and post death threats. PZ gets a few death threats in a slow week.
They always lie and lie like you are right now. It is touching that you feel sorry for your fellow trolls but normal people just find them and you annoying and repulsive.
@107:
Short answer: YES.
And intellectually blind, too. Not to mention the arrogance and self-serving smugness that some of them display.
And, of course, there are quite a few that are not quite compos mentis, if you know what I mean.
In response to 110:
So those people that do believe in God are blind, stupid and ignorant is that right ?
Well.. Then you will have to agree that Sir Isaac Newton was blind, ignorant and stupid is that right ?
Quotes by Sir Isaac Newton:
“Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done.”
“Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors.”
Please explain, thank you.
Some of them are plain stupid, yes.
Others are a far more complicated kind of stupid, the kind of complicated stupid it takes to rationalise the existence of an invisible magic man in the sky who grants wishes in an era where everything else we know about the universe tells us such things are naught but the fanciful dreams of the deluded.
Probably something like, “Help! Get me out of this coffin!”
This is an absolutely false statement, which would be quickly demonstrated by even a brief glance through this blog. Why does lying come so easily to you believers? I just don’t get it. You all arrogantly proclaim to hold the moral high ground on every conceivable issue, and yet, so often, you seem to have absolutely no problem lying your asses off as a matter of course.
It really cracks me up how the christians,every time they run out of arguments,fall back to ” But famous/clever/well-known person X once said something not totally dismissive about my religion,therefore god exists”.
Typical fundie xian post. This is probably cut and paste because Steve Sorensen isn’t sane enough to write that much.
Sorensen is a psycho who gets off on drive bys where he tells everyone will go to hell and be tortured forever. He is a sadist at best and a sadist and serial killer wannabe at worst.
1.5 million people/year in the USA ditch xianity. It’s assholes like Sorensen, Anonymous, and Rebecca that partly explains why they leave. Who wants to be in a religion populated by stupid, vicious, lying, trolls?
Anonymous #116 wrote:
He was ignorant, yes — in the formal sense of the word, meaning he did not know. His proofs for God were nowhere near as clear, neat, and valuable as his scientific demonstrations. They went nowhere.
Back in Newton’s era, “natural philosophers” honestly believed that, the more they studied nature, the more evidence for God they would find. That was a very reasonable assumption. But, as it turned out, God wasn’t necessary to explain anything: it acted instead as a place holder for ignorance.
Last year I was at a talk given by an astronomer, and he explained that, when Newton reached a difficult part of his theory of motion, he invoked God — and stopped. That was it. All his brilliant discoveries took place in a very short period of time, cut off by his piety. The rest of his life was spent in a strange mix of theology and pseudoscience, trying to demonstrate that God was not a Trinity, or something of that sort. Angels dancing on the head of a pin …
No but he was fairly unhinged in some areas.
To Raven,
I have been reading the responses. Question… what are you so angry about. Have you been hurt by a christian or God?
Dear MRC, one does not get hurt by something that isn’t there and one does not have to be hurt by the followers of imaginary beings to be angry with them.
I’m sorry, but the responses to this (troll or not) are very funny. I’m feeling great sympathy for Scott Hatfield, who must carry the weight of civility as virtually the only Gentleman Theist around here, and Sastra, often the sole staff member on call at the ramshackle Pharyngula Diplomatic Office. Fight on, Scott and Sastra!
Lord have mercy on his soul.
I rest my case:
I barely mentioned that I’m a believer and immediately I’m called a TROLL. I’m sure Sorensen and Rebecca are glad to be Trolls, I would rather be a Troll then be a Fool in the eyes of God.
But to those of you who claim to be wise you never answered my question …
Is Issac Newton stupid and ignorant?
What about Johannes Kepler?
What about Galileo Galilei ?
By the way I’m not running out of arguments, simply asking a question that no one seems to be able to answer.
@SC–I know. I really wish we had more people like Scott and Leigh around.
Demonstrateably wrong. You obviously haven’t been here long.
Good grief. What’s going on? Has someone parked a short bus out the front of PZ’s house and given each of them a ‘101 stupid questions to ask atheists about why they’re atheists’ pamphlet?
I can’t answer regarding what a Christian might have done to someone, but I can answer the question about whether or not the Christian god has – and the answer is ‘obviously not’.
How could we have been hurt by a god? Gods don’t exist.
I’d rather be a hammer than a nail.
Shit! Forgot about Leigh. Sorry, Leigh.
You poor christard, you must be blind. That can be the only reason why you haven’t noticed several people answering your question. Either that, or like most christards you’re a fucking liar for jebus.
Anon (and on, and on, apparently):
Who isn’t answering your question? From my point of view, neither Newton, nor Galileo, nor Kepler were stupid at all. Of course they were ignorant of some things (as are we all).
My own question back to you: What point is your question designed to prove? What if we answer one way or the other?
It seems like the so called “Believers” are not the ones who are narrow minded. For the “Believers” to be on this site who are interested in S.H. would be someone who might have a grasp of the universe, science, history and somewhat intelligent.
What if those who do not “Believe” step out of your bubble and see what others have experienced. You might be surprised to find out there is more they do not know.
Anonymous @128:
Scroll up dumbass, your questions have been addressed, you just chose to ignore them and keep on trollin’.
I wish you would rest your case, because it is the same old tired garbage.
Anyway. Heartfelt gratitude to Stephen Hawking for supplying good science to the world, I hope he has a swift recovery.
Rest your case? What case did you rest? You started out with a LIE. And for this you expect to be engaged in respectful conversation? Really? If I got up in the back of your congregation and started yelling about how the entire Judas aspect of the story was a heresy, and that it was Judas who actually killed Jesus, how much respect do you think I would get from the assembled?
Actually, I called you a liar, because you posted a couple of enormous lies. I didn’t even assume you were a believer, though I don’t find it shocking in the slightest. Most of the believers who post here are also shameless liars.
Well, yeah, you haven’t made any arguments at all.
Another lie. Several people answered your question. #117, 122, & 123 come immediately to mind, and I didn’t even go back and look for others.
Now you answer my question: Does your religion tell you to lie so much, or does it come naturally to you?
One can be incredibly talented in one thing using logic and reason and totally shackled by faith (an entirely unreasonable position) in others.
Take Ken Miller. He’s an incredible biologist who compartmentalizes his faith.
He still believes in God, a position wholly unsupported by reason yet he manages to be a staunch defender of science. Until he invokes God.
SC, OM wrote:
I’d rather be a sparrow than a snail.
No, they’re double chocolate stupid.
Emmet, I don’t believe that I have said this recently, so I will say it now. YOU FUCKING ROCK.
Can’t read can you? Fed up, disgusted, and appalled by what xianity has become.
I was a xian for 50 years and left it behind just recently. The Theothuglicans did some real damage to the USA and would destroy it if they could. Two of my friends are dead in Iraq. The fundie war on science didn’t help either, inasmuch as I am a scientist.
Not an unusual story. Many or most atheists were once believers. Robertson, Dobson, Hagee, Bush, and the trolls etc. have produced more atheists in a day than Dawkins has in a year.
BTW, that 1.5 million members leaving the religion a year is a real number. Xianity has fallen by 10% in the last few decades to 76% of the population. The nonreligious are around 20%, almost the largest sect in the USA.
To answer Anonymous’s question again, are fundie Death Cultists stupid? You bet, they are busily destroying their religion without an iota of self reflection or awareness. They are in it for the hate. “As you sow, so shall you reap”.
Christards often pull the “famous person X was a Christian and he* wasn’t stupid or ignorant so why do you say we’re stupid and ignorant?” gambit.
There’s nothing to say that someone can’t be intelligent and knowledgeable about one field and stupid in another. I’ve read Robert Bakker’s Dinosaur Heresies and was impressed by Bakker as a paleologist. I’ve heard Bakker, who is an ordained minister of some flavor, talking about “anti-creationists” and thought “what an idiot.”
*Famous person X is inevitably male. I’ve never seen anyone say “Madam Pompadour worshiped god and she wasn’t stupid or ignorant, the same can be said about Beatrix Potter.”
MRC #136 wrote:
Being “narrow” or “open” minded is not about what a person believes. It is about why they believe it, and how they hold it. Can their belief be changed? Many “Believers” are quite adamant that no, they would not change their minds, and “abandon God.” They exchange God’s presumed incapacity for being wrong, for their own incapacity for being wrong.
What? Even more that the Believers don’t know, than we originally thought? I don’t think you meant to phrase this, the way you did ;)
Actually, Bob’s a twit as a paleontologist too, but that’s another story…
MRC, read a few of these threads and just look at the xian believers posts. They lie, they are trolls, they are stupid, they are malicious.
They usually start or end up by telling everyone they are going to hell. Occasionally they start threatening to kill people.
If, after that, you still want to be a xian, you are one sick puppy yourself.
PS, Anonymous is just a troll fooling with you. He knows he is lying, he is just trying to derail the thread and get people to respond to him. PZ is going to have to go back to typekey or get overrun with trolls again. Way it goes.
rebecca said:
I understand your “theory determines your observation” as Einstein said.
Project much?
Not too surprising, since Famous Person X usually lived in or before the 19th century, too. Einstein is usually the most recent authority I see them dredge up.
They almost never bring up non-Christian theists. Again, Einstein is one of the standouts in this respect, but at least he’s still in the Abrahamic tradition. I never see pagans held up as examples of famous genius theists. I wonder why. Surely there’s a few ancient Greeks they could mention, at least.
Now I’m rambling. Sorry!
Josh #147
I’s a pore, iggerant ekonomyst, I don’ know from dinnersores.
Josh @143
*blush*
But you rock, my friend. It’s just mize opinion. You know what those are worth…
*bows toward Emmet*
Could be. I tend to go with Hanlon’s Razor, though. Anyway, I’m bored and aggressive and pent up right now. I’ll go read a book soon, okay? ^^
Speaking of stupid xians. Probably most of the nonbelievers on these sites are former xians. They know what they are missing, nothing worthwhile.
These days, the easiest way to become an atheist is to have too much exposure to xians and xianity. Hector Alvado, the biblical scholar, professor, author, and seminary graduate became an atheist because he “studied the bible.”
PZ Myers the famous atheist met his wife in Lutheran sunday school.
Not allowing the use of the moniker “anonymous” would be nice.
Not forcing typekey but just blocking that one word.
for reasons far too subtle for most of us to understand.
raven #155 wrote:
I thought he met her in second grade, public school?
Question… What would it take for you to Believe in God?
Raven, I am sorry for your loss. And being put outside of the Church. Not all so-called Christian are the same. I apologize for the un-acceptance you have come by over the years.
#146 Actually the understanding of science, mythology, the zodiac signs, and ancient history has caused me to believe more in the unexplained mysteries. I believe that everything can be explained if you have understanding and knowledge of what you are looking for.
A christian once touched me in the subway.
It was terrifying.
Anonymous @ 107
I’ll be more generous with my evaluation than the others. If I told you I was either the tooth fairy or communicated with it, you would probably say I was either unhinged or delusional because there is no such thing. Yet when you say you speak with or believe in an imaginary thing, I am supposed to declare you holy and a wonder to behold, and endowed with powers far above us to comprehend, even though from the dawn of humans this imaginary thing has never shown itself physically but only in the minds of those who wish it were so. You cannot comprehend and accept that this imaginary thing is born in our brains, and without the physical brain no such thing would ever arise. We cannot create the tooth fairy, yet we can create something far more influential on the same basis of imagination based just on the mind willing it so without need for tactile proof.
No, people who believe in imaginary things are not plain stupid; they are blatantly irrational and should be told by rational people why they are in such a state of mental rot.
It seems like the cowgull has flown away.
Someone providing some empirically based evidence for the existence of one.
That or god coming down to earth and thumping me on the head. And I don’t mean in a “have to interpret” kind of way, I mean a “listen asshole, I’m right here *thump” kind of way.
What would it take for you to stop believing in god?
You’d all understand them just fine. They’re just not that interesting.
MRC, I’ll consider your god as seriously as you consider the non-existence of god. I believe that is called the golden rule. Something most xians seemed to have misplaced.
I thought he wrote once that they went to Lutheran Sunday school together or some such. Going from memory and might have got it scrambled.
Sorry – I was doing J/Therion.
Rev.BigDumbChimp @ 163
Death.
“Question… What would it take for you to Believe in God?”
A handshake from the God dude himself, and a billion dollars from said dude. Anyone who gives me a billion bucks would be God in my book.
Oh, and a lots and lots and lots of proofs from said guy.
Here’s to the doctors. Do your work, buddies, and do it well.
BLAST!
*Stewie feet pattering frustratedly away*
Hawking’s condition has apparently improved since being admitted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8008767.stm
I’m guessing that you’ve nailed it, but let us see.
Holbach wrote:
I think it’s telling that they follow a book where it’s described that their god did show himself physically to them, in many ways and on a regular basis – but can’t explain (in any compelling fashion) why, if he does exist, he doesn’t show himself to people today.
‘Because he doesn’t want to’ is, of course, a non-answer.
MRC #159
The guy’s not only a believer in The Big Guy In The Sky, he’s a believer in astrology as well. Is there no end to the stupid?
an extraordinary amount of actual testable evidence, since you are making an extraordinary claim.
Yeah… of course “your” brand of fantasy is more valid than the other kinds right?
You should try watching the video on being “open minded” that was posted recently. Try trolling thru some recent threads. A lesson in critical thinking might clean some of that useless crap out of your noggin’.
Wowbagger @141:
MRC #159 wrote:
Depends on which version you mean. I think that strong, repeatable, demonstrable evidence for mind-body dualism or the ‘paranormal’ would go a good way towards establishing the consistency, possibility, and reality of some sort of disembodied consciousness or mind force — which most versions of God ultimately reduce to. I would find theism much more plausible with an explicitly scientific — as opposed to faith-based — consensus behind it.
Of course, there is also the famous example of the stars suddenly spelling out John 3:16 or some such message: knowing what we know about the size and scope of the universe, natural explanations would be far more strained and unlikely than the supernatural one.
Now, your turn: what would it take for you to no longer believe in God?
I’m not sure what “unexplained mysteries” you’re referring to — astrology and ancient astronauts? If so, I don’t think you’re going to be able to call on science to back you up here.
I believe that anything can be supported if you look for confirming evidence, and are flexible on what that involves.
Turning the water that sits on my desk into an alcoholic beverage… either that or setting fire to a slaughtered bull through prayer alone ;)
raven #166 wrote:
Possibly both — elementary school, and Sunday school. He once posted a photo of his 2nd (?) grade class, and asked us to try to pick out him, and his future wife.
Or turning a staff into a snake. Making the sun stand still. Hell, I’d even take a non-biblical miracle and say regrowing the limb of an amputee.
Now that this question has been answered, what would it take for you to doubt God’s existence?
He’s beaten the odds before, he can do it again.
I just hope someday I get the chance to see him lecture in person. I’ve already failed to see Sigfried and Roy live…
I guess too if the stars rearranged themselves to spell out “Jesus is Lord” or one of the 7 foreskins that supposedly were off Jesus turned out to not have any male DNA – note this could also be done with pieces of the cross where Jesus’ blood was spilled. Hell, there might even be a hair in the cave where he was buried. We were able to identify the remains of Copernicus through DNA after all…
#165 I’ll consider your god as seriously as you consider the non-existence of god
#163That or god coming down to earth and thumping me on the head. And I don’t mean in a “have to interpret” kind of way, I mean a “listen asshole, I’m right here *thump” kind of way.
What would it take for you to stop believing in god?
OK…
What would it take for me… If He/God would NOT come in a special way to you personally and “thump”you on the head. Are you willing and ready to take the challenge? Might be scary.
I don’t think any fancy parlour-trick would do it for me — much more likely that I’m hallucinating and too hard to tell the difference between a deity and very clever aliens — Clarke’s old saw about “any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”. A real god would, however, know exactly what it would take to convince me beyond doubt, and would simply do it, so the problem of deciding what would constitute acceptable proof could never arise.
About 6 months ago, someone on here offered the same challenge: for us to ask God to reveal himself to us. So I complied and set up an experiment, that if the water on my desk would turn into vodka then I would acknowledge that God exists. It’s been over 6 month and hundreds of iterations of the exeriment later, God has a 0% success rate. Can I call God a failed hypothesis yet?
That should be “Avalos”.
As he said in a talk to the Minnesota Atheists, “I was born in a Pentecostal home — born in Mexico, migrated to the U.S. — where I would go on circuits preaching the Word of God, trying to convert atheists to Christianity. And Catholics to Christianity.”
Since I heard the sad news this afternoon, there has been a kind of movie loop running in my mind. Pictures of Stephen.
Recent images of his rumpled, thin form sitting slightly askew in his wheelchair. A bit of old video showing a younger Stephen, apparently a healthy young man, striding across a campus. A photo of him with a young wife, then with young children. Frequent glimpses of crowds of people, rapt, captured by some brand new idea and becoming aware of its explanatory power.
And right now his portrait on the cover of my copy of “A Brief History of Time.” He is in a simple wheelchair that lacks the electronic accessories of later times. He sits erect, hands on knees before a background of deep space. He appears to be in the act of looking up at me, in mid blink, as if he had just looked away for a moment, and I think he is about to speak.
Now I hear his augmented voice speaking, complex interactions of subatomic particles giving him sound and presence as he teaches me of complex interactions of subatomic particles. I don’t seem to be able to recall his natural voice though I know I have heard it. I feel a bit guilty about that.
I see a strong, young tree that grew with astounding speed to dominate the forest. Then one day long ago I heard that the tree was ill with a weakening disease and I saw the great tree wither and shrink. Yet the bright foliage it had always displayed only grew brighter and the blossoms kept forming fertile seed.
I think of a friend I have never met but who has instructed me, inspired me, humbled me. What could I ever give in return? What could I show him that could even stand the light? Only my gratitude and deep thanks for his life, his example, and for providing all of humanity with a slightly sharper view, a more rounded understanding.
I have a deep desire to keep repeating, “C’mon Stephen. Hang in there. You can lick this.” And I am saying it, in the quiet places within, feeling almost as if he can hear me. Even pick my voice out of all the others joining me in a simple hymn of hope and goodwill.
So I have all of these flickering images, fragments of speech overlaying my mind, bearing hard on my heart. Tell me, am I praying? I’m not going by way of an intermediary, I’m evoking no magic, no spirit, no god. And yet I somehow feel as though my intent, my care, my poor love is going to reach Stephen and he’ll know it and he’ll get better. I truly do.
It is the only thing I can give to him so I yield it up without question, without second thought. And if it does no good, if the news only grows more dire, I’ll keep on giving it. And if Stephen is lost to us I will stop. But I will always have the images, the snips of his life, his books. I will have him within me, and I will be thankful and will probably thank him again from time to time. And soon my grandsons will make his acquaintance and Stephen will live on.
If this can be properly called “prayer,” then to do so is a deeply human trait that predates historic religious practice by millennia. And if this is so, then I am praying. To Stephen. And to myself. amen
been there done that, still waiting.
and Leigh Williams. let’s not forget her.
I’ve been taking that challenge every day for the last fifteen years or so. If you’d like to take up the role of Metatron and pass that along to your gods, be my guest. I’m waiting.
Too, your wording of “special way” is suspect, and I’m calling you out: define “special”, and please make it testable. If not, you’re weaseling out of any sort of verifiability.
I hope the quacks can help. A certain campus wouldn’t be quite the same without someone accidentally running over the toes of all the students and visiting scientists in sight.
You would think that of the billions of humans who have died on this planet, just one would come back and give definite proof that there is life after death and this god thing exists. Just one freaking human to give absolute credence to this eternal bullshit that has wracked the human mind from the moment when they were able to think of anything, let alone a figment of the imagination. One out of billions, and it has not yet come to pass. Why is it that so few humans have no difficulty comprehending this ageless conundrum, yet the majority of the masses wallow in this incredible senseless pursuit for absolutely nothing. There has to be a clearcut difference between those who believe in idiotic foolishness and those who comprehend that foolishness in the afflicted. I make no ambiguous or false remark that atheists are above the religious rabble in this respect, and if it can be argued that we are the more intelligent for not subscribing to the non-existent, then I will gladly state that my non-belief clearly states my edge in intelligence, arguable though it may be in the different circumstances.
There is no life after death, but there is definitely death after life, and one should live a life free of this insane wishfull and stultifying pursuit.
These kids with their remixes.
m #183 wrote:
Could you please rephrase this? I think you’re trying to answer the question (“what would it take for you to stop believing in god?”), but I can’t understand your answer.
For the purposes of the question, you have to assume that your experiences have all taken place, but you’ve misinterpreted them — and their explanations are actually natural. How would you find this out? In other words, no going back and saying something along the lines of “I would stop believing in God if the amazing miracle I experienced hadn’t happened.” (The challenge to us makes no sense if you’re answering our challenge to you.)
Also, if you’re MRC, try to stick with that nick. You’ve changed it, and it’s confusing (unless you’re not MRC, and I’m confused)
I can has less troll-feeding?
You must be new here.
Go away for a few hour and a couple of gibbering godbots starts spouting out. I don’t give a flying fuck what they have to say; it offers nothing.
Lee Picton, my words cannot give any true comfort but I wish you and your husbeast well. Good luck and I hope you two get as much pleasure and happiness in the time you have left.
*LOL* You’ve been watching too much Forest Gump or something. He-God does not scare us.
BWAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!
Godbot: You’re so closed-minded!!! What would it take for you to believe in God?!
Skeptic: Well, some solid, documented evidence would be nice, or maybe a personal appearance.
Godbot: uhh……. I can’t do that….. but how about something else, more fuzzy and subjective instead?
Skeptic: no, because it’s fuzzy and subjective
Godbot: you’re so closed-minded!!! And you hate God!!! And you just made MY belief in him stronger, so there!
Skeptic: *facepalm*
m is MRC… sorry, I thought all the keys were hit.
Please excuse me if I have made anyone feel uncomfortable. It is not my intention. I really had to think about the question you have challenged me with. I guess I believe as much as you don’t believe. I can accept that. I have seen miracles, experienced the love of God, I have seen people dieing of cancer live, x-rays of spines becoming straight, my son saw people in Africa see when they have never seen, I have a personal friend who has seen the dead raised. Because of all these experiences… I have a hard time not believing.
again, I am really not a troll, moron, or a bible thumper. I am NOT going to judge you or tell you that you are going to hell. But please accept me, as I do you, where you are in your beliefs. I do not appreciate the name calling or the judgments of putting me in the box of others.
It has been a good chat.
also: I’m glad to hear Stephen Hawking seems to be doing better :-)
MRC, what you fail to understand is that your beliefs do not automatically deserve respect just because you believe in them. we shall respect your right to hold those beliefs, but we will not respect what is basically a dangerous mass hallucination.
#187 If this can be properly called “prayer,” then to do so is a deeply human trait that predates historic religious practice by millennia. And if this is so, then I am praying. To Stephen. And to myself. amen
What a compassionate sensitive response. Thank you. I am praying too. Outside this evening was the largest rainbow I have ever seen. I believe God is smiling on all our prayers. It is good to know that I can pray and it is not about me. I know that the power of God brings life. I appreciate any opportunity I get to partner with him to care for others. It is His nature to give life. I am trusting in that for all who need prayer for healing whether physical or emotional. There is so much unkindness in the world. It is a great comfort when others share positive comments that bring hope and joy. blessings!
It seems that MRC has seen events that has never been verified. That is good enough proof for me.
Funny how none of these things are ever documented.
What. The. Fuck?!?
To MRC,
And so you shall leave, having accomplished nothing, nor having learned anything. Secure in your “beliefs” not quite understanding that our positions are not the same. Those of us here who are not theists are secure in the world of the tangible, the rational, the real. We accept evidence and form opinion from facts. Your beliefs are based on unsatisfactory unreliable evidence, the real shame is that it is enough for you to spend your life prostrate to a fantasy. I do not accept you because you do yourself and those you try to convert a disservice, you need to develop some critical thinking ability.
Sure he was. I mean, he died a virgin.
Wait, wait, wait MRC!
Before you go, let me ask you: Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?
But you are either a liar or an extremely gullible person who has little to no understanding of biology and medicine because no one believes even a single bit of this…
There is documentation. If you want to look. You can find them on google. Just search the net.
MRC, how can you experience the love of an imaginary being, who only exists between your ears? We call that delusions.
I’ll tell you what it took for me to stop believing in God:
His perpetual absence coupled with the perpetual insistence of his existence by his apologists. It just got to where I couldn’t keep up the juggling act.
@195, “I can has less troll-feeding?”
No, though I empathize with you.
As for the troll thumpers present, I admire your tireless dedication in the face of daunting odds. The laughs are gravy. I feel much less sorry for the trolls than I used to, even though I still get a sharp twinge from time to time. Oh, no. Nothing to worry about, I’ll be fine.
Wait, you mean there is actually evidence of the dead being raised?!?
The godbot makes extraordinary claims and expects us to do his foot work. MRC, it does not work that way.
lol, complete comprehension fail @ #203. tho I can’t wait for Holbach to notice that he’s being considered a fellow god-botherer
*gets popcorn*
Anonymous
Before you go, let me ask you: Do you believe Jesus Christ is God
yes. Jesus Christ is God.
And… Could it be that our prayers are helping S. H.
Glad to see you back Rebecca…
MRC @ 200
You are not a troll, moron, or bible thumper?
Besides a moron, you are full of shit. You have seen miracles? Can you see my middle finger in front of my monitor, you wacked out religious retard?
MRC #200 wrote:
No, you missed the point. You believe more than we don’t believe, because we are not only willing, but able, to change our minds and realize that we’ve been mistaken. If you cannot seriously entertain the possibility that the “miracles” you have witnessed have been misunderstandings or misinterpretations of purely natural events — then you are very, very, very certain of yourself. You will never find out if you’ve been mistaken, because that’s not possible.
That is where we break company. Not in how much faith and trust we place in “God” — that comes later. It’s in how much faith and trust we first place in human beings.
We don’t have as much as you do. And we don’t think we should have it. Because of all our experience with human error — we have a hard time believing we can be infallible.
post hoc ergo propter hoc
And… Could it be that our prayers are helping S. H.
You would be mistaken. That is modern medicine.
My MRC, you do not want to do any of the work but you sure want the credit. You are the definition of a sniveling fool.
I can’t wait to see the evidence for the dead being raised… this is going to be damn good, it will completely alter how we view biology!
Why don’t you provide the links so we know exactly which ones you are talking about?
Or can you?
Prayers have not been proven to help. Several studies actually show a very minor inverse relationship between being prayed for and getting better. Another delusion debunked for the godbots.
Blake Stacey wrote:
Really? And here I was thinking 17th/18th century mathematicians were getting it left, right and centre and at all hours.
I have seen Star Wars.
The real kind is better than the imaginary kind.
Ain’t chemotherapy great?
Them orthopaedic surgeons sure are the shit.
My grandfather had his cataracts removed too.
I have a personal friend who was chased four miles while naked and barefoot by a 30-foot Snickers with Mickey Mouse ears.
I have more stuff on my computer but do not know how to show you.
They think it’s the prayers that are helping Stephen Hawking, but I think it’s the goat I sacrificed for him. Doesn’t God have infinite power anyway, and judgement well beyond mortals? So isn’t praying just asking God to change his mind, and by doing so you are going against the better judgement of God?
Emmet, I have never seen a Snickers bar move by it’s own volition let alone one that big and with mouse ears. What was your friend on?
Rebecca @203: “What a compassionate sensitive response. Thank you. I am praying too.”
Thank you for the nod. My response was meant to be compassionate and sensitive. The thread was getting a bit off track and needed just a bit of body english.
I also thought it might be a nice idea to give you an atheist perspective on the news of Professor Hawking. To be honest with you, I was saved by the blood back in the day. But something must have gone wrong because it all came off in the wash.
Thank you again for noticing. I hope this helps you to see nonbelievers in a light that is more human than we are often described or as we often reveal ourselves to be. We’re just like you but for one thing.
I hope you post here some more. We could all learn at least a little. But please, wear a flack jacket and don’t forget your safety glasses! There’s a lot of evil shit flying about in these parts.
Peace, and fare well.
really
.
Good freaking grief, we are sloushed with a triple bag of morons! MRC, Anonymous, and rebecca of the funny farm! And they are proselytizing each other in the name of insanity!
Do you accept jeebus crisco as your only true moron, and his imbecilic dog as your savior to the insane asylum? Oh yes, and when we defecate we check for its blessings and bits of brain matter! We are coming lord, free us from this surly hellhole that we have turned into shit that we spread with your name!
And they call atheists misguided and unsaved. Puke.
As if we want to share your delusions. We don’t. Keep your delusions to yourself.
Awesome. Does he/she remember where they got the stuff? That sounds like something I should try.
Some exotic plant hallucinogen, IIRC
MRC. I have some ocean front property in Colorado I’ll sell you cheap.
@MRC #227,
LOL, those guys don’t even know how to perform CPR… 30 compressions and 2 breaths, c’mon people.
Aside from that, a grainy video is not extraordinary evidence in support of an extraordinary claim such as the existence of a god. It can easily be faked, as is evidenced by the many faith healers who have been debunked. If we are taking youtube videos as evidence
No, it was 15 years ago or more.
If that is an example of your proof, I do not see the need to change my mind.
Hey, MRC, do you believe that there are witches that steals the penises of men?
Prayer is nothing more than a personal endeavour, to feel better about being absolutely helpless to help. Hawking has lived for over 40 years with this condition, it’s thanks to modern scientists – people who aren’t helpless that he’s been able to live this long and have a quality of life. Does anyone else notice the disconnect of Christians claiming the power of prayer while taking him to a hospital? Surely if they truly believed in God’s powers they would take him to a chapel or hope that God cures his ALS altogether…
Yet are the millions of doctors and scientists thanked who thanks to empirical enquiry have been able to provide Hawking with means to keep him alive? Are those who devote the time and effort in researching the technology that have enabled Hawking to keep communicating with the outside world thanked? Hell, they aren’t even acknowledged. I really hope rebecca hilinhan @ #203 is a poe, because if she thinks that him improving slightly is something caused by the power of prayer, then all hope for humanity is lost.
Yet in situations like this we keep invoking God, it’s in tragedy – the time when people are at their most vulnerable – that godbots come in to push their deity onto others. They can somehow reconcile that God has allowed Hawking to spend decades crippled by ALS with a slight improvement in his condition near death. And this is cause to celebrate God’s love? Nothing but credulous fools grasping at straws…
rebecca holihan, prayers can be divided into at least two aspects: social and causal. The social aspect of praying allows religious people to communicate to others that they care about thing x by showing or telling others that they will, are, or have been praying for x.
However, the causal aspect of prayer that religious people believe will bring about a specific outcome y has been tested empirically and failed to show any support for the notion that prayers cause the achievement of specific outcome y.
Most atheists here are in agreement with you in that they hope Stephen Hawking recovers, but very few atheists here would attribute any causal power to those hopes and acknowledge that the causal aspect of prayer is nothing more than wishful thinking and delusions of grandeur.
MRC
How come you haven’t seen regenerated arms and legs, and perhaps even a severed head? What, you don’t consider that a miracle? Just the small, unsubstantiated crap like sight restored, raising the dead, and being able to take a crap again?
Everyone knows, that nothing fails like prayer.
Some questions for the religious types asking us to pray for Hawking’s recovery:
If your god exists why did he give Hawking ALS in the first place?
If it’s not punishment for something, how can your god be considered ‘good’ if he lets things like that happen? Are you going to argue the existence of free will? If so, at what point did Hawking choose to have ALS?
If it is punishment, what’s it punishment for?
Patricia, Queen of Fowls @ 41:
Just yolking around a bit. I was thinking of Major League, and the sacrifice to Jobu.
Being a Mr. Smartypants — if there’s one thing we know about Yahweh, it’s that he’s a malevolent, capricious asshole.
no
NO
stop that right now!
MRC #227 wrote:
That’s okay. Videos apparently made by a church are too low a standard. This is not really “documentation.”
Earlier, I wrote
I repeat.
Hey, you evil atheists, repent!!
Hallelujah! Praise Jeebus! It is a miracle!
The Nigerian man who woke up from the dead just sent me an email asking for my bank account details so that he can personally deliver [fanfare]4 million dollars… into my account!
I am gonna be rich! Take that, you bloodthirsty atheists!
Wait, what? 4 million dollars is not that much these days?
[looks around, does not find a Number One…]
Win
Three godbots and not one eternally burning bush that can be examined. What frauds.
Hey Anony, I have news for you: Kepler and Newton were great scientists, but they were not infallible. Newton believed in a personal god, Einstein didn’t. Let me tell you this: if you want to count how many scientists have been on each side, the numbers will be against you.
By the way, do you think anyone who believes in Brahma is a fool(about a billion people)? Just asking.
Anonymous @ 107:
Surprise! All atheists don’t have the same opinions on all things, any more than all theists, or even all theists within the same denomination/tradition, do.
Based on my own experiences, I don’t believe that belief in a god (whether ‘g’ or ‘G’) means that the believer is necessarily stupid. I think that most of the time, the belief system is the cultural “software” that has been installed in the person’s mind, and they accept it as the lens through which they look at the world without giving it much thought; this may be intellectual laziness, but it isn’t necessarily stupidity. Others not raised in a particular belief system may choose to adopt it for any number of reasons; I see them as having been mislead and misinformed. In any case, however iron-clad their belief, their belief does not make it The Truth. Invisible pink unicorns, orbitting teapots and Flying Spaghetti Monsters are all relevant to the case.
—–
And, somewhere ‘way upthread, I seem to recall someone asking why we are all so angry that believers are offering prayer. Again, different people, different responses. I tend to see offered prayers as not being harmful of themselves, provided they don’t interfere with appropriate action; and if the person being prayed for is aware of the prayers, there might be a placebo effect, no different than a sugar pill believed to be actual medication.
What a big surprise. As soon as the requirement for MRC to back his shit up with hard evidence comes up he scampers off like a little mouse.
— Frank Zappa,
Hmmm. I was hoping for some actual evidence before going to bed. I can hardly believe that in just 2 months of frequenting this blog I’ve seen just about all there is from the fundie camp.
I started out here not understanding that there was an issue with creationism or other religious beliefs and in just this short amount of time I’ve been shown the crazy. Now I’m learning the best ways to short circuit fundie garbage.
I like it when the trolls get fed. Then I get to learn.
G’night, and before I go to sleep I shall again say best wishes on a speedy recovery for the subject of this thread.
I hope eric comes in here and explains how MRC’s claim of the dead being raised is somehow different to Paul’s claim of Jesus being raised from the dead?
I can hardly believe that it took that long — they aren’t really that many different ways to spin a half-dozen fallacies.
What’s the matter Chimp, can’t you take a yolk?
Not quite. I attended Lutheran sunday school until about 7th grade, but my wife was brought up Baptist. We met in 3rd grade in public school.
PZ – You scare the crap out of me when you do your Thor impression!
ZOMGZWTFBBQLSMFT You mean Domo-kun is REAL?!?!?!?
MRC @ 217–Sorry, I’m “Anonymous.” I thought I had logged in as castletonsnob, but I guess not.
Anyway, hopefully, you can be the first Christian to attempt to answer this for me:
If Jesus Christ was/is God, then how could He die when God is, by definition, immortal? To put it simply: if Jesus died, He wasn’t God.
Right?
Crudely Wrott, I was deeply moved by your post. Amen, my dear.
“And yet I somehow feel as though my intent, my care, my poor love is going to reach Stephen and he’ll know it and he’ll get better. I truly do.
It is the only thing I can give to him so I yield it up without question, without second thought. And if it does no good, if the news only grows more dire, I’ll keep on giving it.”
As good a definition of prayer as I’ve ever seen.
I’m praying for Professor Hawking tonight, in gratitude for the beacon of light he is in the world and in the hope that his presence will be spared to us for a little more time on this earth.
“These three things endure: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.”
Methinks the atheists protest too much.
If you think prayer is worthwhile, then it is worthwhile.
That’s called faith.
If you don’t believe, that’s fine.
There’s nothing in an empty vessel. By definition.
Lee, all possible positive thoughts and energy towards you and your dear husbeast, also.
One of my beloved cousins reminds me occasionally (usually when I am whining about my increasing decrepitude) that aging gracefully means coming to terms with decreasing physical capacity while rejoicing in increased experience, wisdom, and compassion.
It sounds as if you two are mastering the process. May you continue to do so for many happy years to come.
Thank you, Leigh. You are very kind. I must tell you that I was pretty moved myself when I wrote that post. Stephen Hawking has always had that effect on me, as I’m sure he has on you. May he be able to finish things that he thought he nearly had.
And you are right. The greatest of all is love. No matter what we hold true as individuals, together we all confess to this.
E Pluribus Unum
Something just occurred to me as I was moving between floors and saw some of the smokers come back in from outside.
Would it be fair to liken people who are religious to people who smoke? I mean, there’s no-one in the world who doesn’t know how bad smoking is for you. I know plenty of people who are otherwise very intelligent and capable and strong-minded and what-have-you who just can’t stop smoking.
To me religion makes about as much sense as smoking, but that’s because although I’ve been exposed to (and participated in, to an extent) both, neither gained any lasting hold on me.
Wowbagger, that makes you one of the lucky ones.
‘Course, you have a brain with eyes and ears and all connected to it.
I’m glad you haven’t known those heavy chains.
*lights another Camel straight*
Hawking is apparently a deist or agnostic. Doesn’t sound like a xian at all. Don’t know why the xians insist on praying for him since the fundie death cultists would cheerfully wave good bye as he dies and goes to hell.
Props to Scott H. for pointing me to Kristine Harley’s essay on Jerry Falwell’s death. Money quote: “He had an attack where his heart should have been.”
In our household, my conversation with Mr. Science (also a devout Christian) went this way:
me: “That bastard Jerry Falwell finally died.”
Mr. Science: “Good news.”
Raven gives us an truly inspired rant, with which I completely agree:
Preach it, sister!
I guess the fundies are never going to be supporters of the ‘cumulative evidence’ argument – as explained to us by eric over the last week or so – then; those who think so highly of that particular approach will take absolutely anything there is to try and shore up one of the numerous legs of the shaky table they’ve got their faith teetering precariously upon.
I’m not surprised, raven. Hawking is like Einstein in that both frequently mentioned God while neither really revealed more than tantalizing glimpses into their private theology or lack of same.
People still argue for and against Einstein’s religious leanings and so they will with Hawking.
What can be said is that both found the universe to be profoundly interesting and as they learned more of its interconnected nature they found it to be a great mystery. How much will we need to learn before the sense of the numinous fades?
“How much will we need to learn before the sense of the numinous fades?”
A whole hell of a lot more, I think.
But it’s not “the sense of the numinous” that harms us. It’s all the religiousity we dream up, based in our own prejudices and basest desires, that poisons the world.
Religion is, for many people, nothing more than a fig leaf of rationalization barely hiding naked aggression.
those who think so highly of that particular approach will take absolutely anything there is to try and shore up one of the numerous legs of the shaky table they’ve got their faith teetering precariously upon.
The table is supposed to teeter, Wowbagger. We’re table-tipping for Ectoplasm, which is what gets the Philosophers Stoned. In a spiritualist sense, I once engaged in a friendly game of philosophical card table-tipping with three other fellows named Bruce, each of whom left the table once it got rocking, one at a time, leaving me to keep the table bouncing all on my own, er, on its own. It was an actual metaphysical event! The table was moving, but I, of course, was an unmoved mover, and not at all keeping the thing bouncing in a successful attempt by my credulity to strangle my skepticism. Where was I? Oh yes, shaky card tables! I can’t help it, I was rationally coerced.
I have been in a hospital a few times (for less than life threatening conditions, but still . . .) and have had hospital chaplains visit me to offer their services. I never took offense that they wanted to pray for me, but I also never made a secret of my lack of belief. Heck, a lot of clergy are kind of just religious bartenders; they have a unique ability to listen and offer their brand of condolences.
I simply prefer a good single-malt scotch to prayer.
I only get worried by an offer of prayer if it comes from a person about to perform a medical procedure.
That seems to be what the fundies have done. To promote intragroup cohesion, they have entangled xianity with hate, fear, and paranoia. The result has been very destructive to the USA and the citizens.
It has no resemblance to the mainstream protestant version I was raised with. We were alway more concerned with world peace and helping the poor than in stoning the gays or destroying science.
The fundies version worked for a while but it isn’t working long term. The churches are losing members right and left.
Completely off-topic, but since today was 420, NPR had an interesting “what-if” feature about legalizing marijuana.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=103276152
Don’t do it here, folks, I’d rather not be a thread-derailer, but at some point if PZ cares to devote a post to the topic, I’d love to hear thoughts on the matter.
Guys, ignore the religiotards and get back to the real issue at hand:
ROBOTIC EXO-SKELETONS!!! Should Hawking’s be shaped like Voltron or like a dinosaur?
Autumn @ 276:
As do I, along with a number of my friends. And our discussions about “which single malt is the best” can become almost nearly theological at times: just as heated and sect-like, with accusations of “heresy!” never far away.
The difference, though, is that we all gladly and continuously challenge our professed faith, and are willing to convert as soon as a better one is revealed to us.
For right now, I am a fervent believer in 21 year old Springbank.
This just in from the Beeb – it looks like Professor Hawking is going to be OK!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8010058.stm
Methinks you miss the point. Wasting time praying could be used doing something that actually works.
I’ll never forget the big smile on Stephen Hawking’s face
when he made a cameo appearance on Star Trek TNG as a holo
deck poker player for Mr. Data. I could tell he was having
the time of his life. An incredible mind trapped in a pitiful body. Hawking never ceases to amaze me. I wish him well and
will miss him when he’s gone. He is one of the great minds of
our time and has contributed so much to world of “real” science.
[8~{} Uncle Monster
The only empty vessel is the mind of believers. By definition.
Ehm,no.
If you think running around a tree naked under a full moon is worthwhile,its not worthwhile just because you think it is.
It might be called faith,but that doesnt make it not a waste of time better spent on something useful to mankind.
Its called argument from personal incredulity.Youre welcome.
Having finally gotten over the trauma of almost having him run me over outside King’s College all those years ago (that motorised wheelchair looks enormous when it’s bearing down on you), I’d like to wish Professor Hawking a speedy recovery.
Sad news, indeed. I’m sure we all wish him a speedy recovery.
If a “lucky” pair of shorts helps a basketball player focus on his game and win 6 championships, then it is worthwhile to him. I think that was the point of the original comment. If prayer calms one’s anxiety about another, then it is worthwhile to him. It does not help the “beneficiary” but it does help the “benefactor” who may not be able to do anything material to help. Just as funerals are not for the dead but for the living, prayers are for the person praying, not who they are praying for.
It is, however, a nice way to spend an evening, except for all the running.
Latest news is a good prognosis for recovery
I wouldn’t say this is the best news… but i thought Stephen Hawking died a long time ago… but he didn’t. so it’s kinda good news to me.
Yay!
This obviously demonstrates the power of snoring, since Hawking improved while I was sleeping. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, y’know!
Maybe it’s just me, but capitalization of informal nouns (god) and pronouns (him) seems to be another sign of insanity, on par with Terry Pratchett’s observation about the use of multiple exclamation points.
WHAT!!!!
Like “Bunny” and “Whip”? That’s crazy talk!!
You read it first here!
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090421/tuk-hawking-set-for-a-full-recovery-6323e80.html
Aren’t all nouns capitalized in German? (for 293)
Love it that the link given as proof of raising the dead (MRC @227) is from Nigeria. Nigerian video spam.
To pray or not to pray.
Either way you will be thinking positive thoughts for Mr Hawking and I reckon THOUGHT is what does the trick.
My thoughts are with all of yours.