Doesn’t it just make you feel so darned good when you hear stories of megachurches and televangelists in decline?
Once one of the nation’s most popular televangelists, the Rev. Robert H. Schuller is watching his life’s work crumble.
ÂHis son and recent successor, the Rev. Robert A. Schuller, has abruptly resigned as senior pastor of the Crystal Cathedral. The shimmering, glass-walled megachurch is home to the “Hour of Power” broadcast, an evangelism staple that’s been on the air for more than three decades.
ÂThe church is in financial turmoil: It plans to sell more than $65 million worth of its Orange County property to pay off debt. Revenue dropped by nearly $5 million last year, according to a recent letter from the elder Schuller to elite donors. In the letter, Schuller Sr. implored the Eagle’s Club members – who supply 30 percent of the church’s revenue – for donations and hinted that the show might go off the air without their support.
It’s not just Schuller!
Today’s increasingly fragmented media landscape is also to blame, said Quentin Schultze, a Calvin College professor who specializes in Christian media.
Church-based televangelism led by powerful personalities filled TV in the 1980s, but now only a handful of shows remain, he said. Among the struggling ministries are those of Oral Roberts and the late D. James Kennedy of “The Coral Ridge Hour” TV show.
Ah, I dream of a day when all of the churches are in collapse. Unfortunately, the article doesn’t say that the loss of attendees is because of growing enlightenment: it’s because these organizations are dependent on the personal charisma of their leaders, and when they go, people just go searching for another happy sheep-fleecer. It’s still a start, though.
Funny how the sheep never notice that the shepherd wears wool and leather and eats mutton.
Ahh, the upside of a ruined economy.
Oh shucks…
Now if we could just get them to pay their bloody taxes when they cross over and become PACs.
These aren’t your mom-and-pop next door houses of worship. After religion got Walmart-ized using the exact same business practices that created mega-banks and mega-malls, is it really a surprise to see the mega-church suffer with their vastly overvalued peers.
The Crystal Cathedral banked on the generosity of thousands of little old ladies with deep faith and deep pockets. It couldn’t support itself in lean times. This was inevitable.
“Church-based televangelism led by powerful personalities filled TV in the 1980s, but now only a handful of shows remain, he said.”
What’s really funny is how many of those “powerful personalities” lost their powers.
Jesus loves big shiny churches.
Why the hell can’t their imaginary god bail them out with a nice stimulous package of born-again morons? Are their insane prayers being answered, or do they have to appeal to santa claus. Calvin and Hobbes to the rescue with some choice bare-faced facts.
Doesn’t help that the economy is in the dumpster… who should the minister drive a Benz when they’re driving a Carolla.
Ted Haggard was on TV saying that the reason the religious right is in trouble is that they have become the church of the Republican Nazis. He should know.
Enjoy.
NOW is the time to pounce! I am looking for a venture capitalist who will help me corner the market on Blessed Prayer Cloths. I envisage a less deitinous marketing strategy; maybe the good ‘ol late-night crazed-shill-on-speed half-hour infomercial. Who’s in?
Here’s another (old) piece of news from the same front: The state church of Finland (where I live) lost over 46000 members last year. That’s more than 1% of its members – a bit over 81% of Finns belong (4.3 million members in total).
This is an ongoing trend here. Partly, it’s about the church taxes, partly about people changing their religion to something a little less bland. And I do hope it’s in great part about people seeing what religion is.
The church likes to blame the freethinkers’ association, who put up a website where people can resign over the internet.
Anyway, it’s good to hear good news from across the pond, too. Also: hi to everyone.
Good news indeed. Besides, why does God need money?
I notice that the Right Douchebag Steve Popoff is still trolling the airwaves peddling his stinky bullshit. I’m all for televangelists going broke but man, would I love to see Popoff, Hinn and, hell, let’s throw Douchepak Chumpra in the mix too.
Still, one less “Crystal Cathedral” – seriously, what are these people, the Skeksis from The Dark Crystal? – is a feather in the cap of someone.
*sings* “Schadenfreude! Taking pleasure in someone else’s pain.”
I love it.
just wondering if anyone happened to have seen this story over at the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/health/27well.html
Seems like a fine example of the general public denying the findings of researchers in favor of a perception they like to foster that makes for better headlines.
Would make me feel a lot better if the money those people were donating to the churches went to science supportive foundations instead. But one can only wish I guess.
One would hope those leaving these churches have suddenly realized that tithing to churches is probably not needed at all, and that giving their time to others in the here and now is better. And further that they have realized it’s important to help others – and that it is possible to do so – without a church having to be involved.
Few examples of Big Religion stumbling onto its face are as stark as Jim and Tammy’s Heritage USA debacle.
For a satisfying picture tour of what comes of facade and hysteria, travel ye to:
http://sbno.illicitohio.com/heritage/heritage01.html
Of course, there is always some new group of cultists trying to resurrect the nightmare – or parts of it anyway.
http://www.thestate.com/breaking/story/659781.html
BigHeathenMike @ 13
I like your sarcastic name change on that insane creep I renamed as Deepcrap Chopper. These morons deserve every choice insult thrown at them, whether in name changes or names of a more fitting choice.
BigHeathenMike: Do you mean “Peter Popoff”? Or is there another slimy evangelist named “Steve Popoff”?
LOL. Lets see, the global financial environment changes, putting pressure on cash-dependent organizations by reducing the availability of financial resources. The biggest, slowest, dumbest of the lot (megachurches), can’t adapt and are being naturally selected for extinction.
Couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch of dinosaurs.
OMG! Catholic schools are in decline too!
http://www.twincities.com/ci_11598044?IADID=Search-www.twincities.com-www.twincities.com
Hahahaha. Mr. Jeferson, build up that wall!
It makes me feel like Buck Owens song “Happy Times are Here Again”
It does fit, because last year was when the New Atheist were making us feel happy with the huge book sales. It really is a good fit. I wasn’t sure if the failed economy would push people back to religion or help with the enlightenment of the masses. Feeling uncomfortable about being in church is a good start!
BTW and OT, I have fixed the blasted IE7 vs Firefox issue at my blog.
Maybe they were giving too big a percentage of their
hauldonations to other charities? Christians are very charitable, I’ve heard.I would love to know how much of the billions of “faith base” dollars are being used to build “fundie” infrastructure. There is no way in hell that a lot of these churches and “Family Life” centers are supported by their congregations. I was hoping that with Bush gone, the money would be shut off and they would freeze in the dark. Looks as if the money is going to increase.
This news surprises me. Recently, I was shaken by the news that the economic turndown was turning more people TO rather than FROM the church. Some people seem to seek the company of an invisible friend in times of crisis.
And yet these churches are in financial trouble? We don’t have megachurches here in the UK. Nor do we have big Christian TV. Maybe I’m missing something about the economics of the American churches. Something I simply do not understand.
What I find interesting (and heartening) is how many of these egomaniacal god-botherers literally act like gods themselves; I am referring in particular the old god Chronos, who ate children, for fear that they would supplant him.
Examples: Robert Schuller, now in his eighties, has ousted his son, Richard, after only two years at the helm of that megachurch.
Oral Roberts’ son, Richard, has had to resign his position and his father, aged ninety, has had to return to duties.
Herbert W. Armstrong fired and excommunicated his son, Garner Ted Armstrong. The old bastard lives to 94!
And Sun Myung Moon (he is 88), his sons are all drug addicts and worse.
Let them (the churches and the ministers) die.
Love ’em! Deepak Chopra is…
Douchepak Chumpra
Deepcrap Chopper
Deepchop Crapper
Crapdeep Doopak
Chopdeep Akra
Any more?
A fool and his money are soon parted.
The fools are just a tad more gullible on this side of the pond.
My favorite televangelist is that woman with the purple hair.
Pay for pray marketing and there’s no more wool to gather from the over-shorn flock, and all those new to the fold are pitiful and poor. It looks like all those Televangelists will be downsizing on the home front as well.
The Hour of Power guy? Nice! He is the televangelist that has always pissed me off the most. I remember being a kid, trying to find something good on TV on a Sunday morning, and all I could find was a bunch of boring crap, including his wretched show. Even at a young age, when I was still trying to be a good little catholic girl, I knew there was something so not right about that guy. Good news PZ, good news.
They are like kings, passing their kingdoms to princes who have all the vices that princes are heir to.
Sadly, the churches will not die, much as I might wish it. Times of hardship will swell their ranks with those seeking certainty and community in an uncertain, uncongenial world. However, we might be grateful that the mass of acolytes may be too poor to keep the kings in the manner to which they are accustomed.
Heaven. It’s the biggest pimpin’est crib evah.
The streets are paved with gold, 24 hour concierge service at the front gate, and a broadband pipeline straight to hell for all you godless heathens.
That shit is expensive. God needs bank, just like all the playaz on the block, so don’t be hatin’. That’s just how he rolls.
Dobson’s Focus on Overthrowing the Government is in trouble too. They’ve had several rounds of layoffs and are rumored to be losing money and members.
His Humanoid Toad Club of large donors is also in trouble. They got caught in the mysterious worldwide amphibian decline.
I think Joel Osteen is still doing well, though.
I’d have some hope for religious decline as the mega-churches become tired. After all, they “served” the kind of rootless suburban-dwellers who aren’t especially likely to go to a neighborhood church.
Hence I consider it to be good news, if rather minor in the entirety of US religion.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
TV evangelists are all starting to look a bit haggard now.
Jan Crouch?
Yeah, she’s a real good one.
And what is it with the really baroque gaudy ass furniture on that show. All gold and ornate and fucking ugly.
@Lee Brimmicombe-Wood:
Fairly recently, various ‘mega’ churches popped up, fairly large and merely there to make money. They had large congregations, and cost a lot to build.
Televangelism is also fairly popular, but, is thankfully waning. Assholes like Peter Ripoff like to squeeze old ladies for all of their money.
@25/ Newfie:
You mean the “buy me a new Mercedes” charity?
RevBDC:
Jesus! That’s the least convincing tranny I’ve ever seen.
It’s like a horrible cross between Tammy Faye Bakker and a Castro District Drag Queen Diva Stage Performer.
You should see her “act” on the Trinity Network show he co-hosts. She’s about as annoying as a single human can get.
Happy Monkey to that!
Jan Crouch? She looks like Lady Bunny.
OT, but well worthwhile. Stein did bow out of the UVM commencement speech and honorary degree under pressure:
Expect him to be far less gracious when speaking to IDiots/cretins.
It’s wonderful that he meets with so much derision after his protracted whine in Expelled.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
What is with the Tammy Faye Drag Queen™ styles for Evangelistas?
Yep. So Christlike are the “real” Christians. Their true Christian “giving” to GOP coffers, is what keeps them in business.
The church is in financial turmoil: It plans to sell more than $65 million worth of its Orange County property to pay off debt.
Whenever I hear news like this, I am reminded of L. Ron Hubbard (i.e. the sci-fi writer who founded his own religion of Scientology – ain’t America great?). As many who read this Board already know, Hubbard is rumoured to have told a fellow science fiction writer that the quickest way to make a million dollars is to found your own religion. PZ, you and Richard Dawkins and few more of your high profile atheist buddies should follow this lead and found your own “non-religion”. Just one suggestion: keep the life after death fairytale – it is a great cash generator as proven by about 8000 years of recorded history.
I have no idea but it frightens me deep into the hole where my soul would be if I had one.
And she’s on ALL THE TIME.
In fact, I wouldn’t have minded if Stein had given the speech, so long as he was met with the proper amount of derision.
Just fill up signs with all of his pig-ignorant statements about evolution not explaining gravity, how science kills people (as the jerk flies around the country, swilling various legal drugs), and how Darwin was necessary for Nazis.
I really can’t think that his speech could have done him far more damage than his declining to speak will do.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Glen, did you make a wrong turn at Albuquerque?
Oops, I’ll get it right yet:
At least if people did protest his hatred of science and of honesty.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
It plans to sell more than $65 million worth of its Orange County property to pay off debt.
…time to stop establishing religion as tax-free: tax ever business equally.
PS – “Crystal Cathedral” is druggie slang for methamphetamine.
PPS – just kidding. But it sounds good.
GLEN! WOHOOOO! WRONG THREAD!!!
I grew up watching Reverend Ike on the telly, back in the 70’s. He was a televangelist who was, in all aspects, indistinguishable from the neighborhood pimp. He had the velvet cape, the big feathered hat, and plenty of bling.
Jan Crotch and her ilk are cut from the same cloth. Religious pimps… all of’em. And yeah, she’s fugly.
Honey, that’s just Southern Chic.
“are dependent on the personal charisma of their leaders”
1920s-1950s Soviet Union
China under Mao
North Korea for the last 50 years
mega churches
Institutions built on a culture of personality worship are doomed to fail
Judging from the Crouch picture that BDC left, the makeup companies did not have to discontinue gallon sizes of makeup following Tammy Fae’s death.
Jeebus loves me, this I know.
Creflo Dollar tells me so.
Provided one slips Creflo a couple of bucks now and again.
And oh my, that lovely Osteen couple, Joel and Victoria. I shudder to think of either of them actually having to work for a living.
Gawd bless Jim Bakker. Even a few years in prison didn’t stop him from his life’s work – collecting money from scared old ladies.
Bless ’em all. Maybe I’ll see them soon, behind me on the unemployment line.
This is one of my favorite televangelists.
Yes he is for real.
Public access TV is great.
I love the P-Funk in the background
So, you apply all the make up you want to wear for the week and just sand down to a fresh layer each day? Well, I guess that’s one way to do it.
I guess there are no shortages of wind-blown wigs in tornado alley, either.
What’s the line from Steel Magnolias? “There’s no such thing as natural beauty?”
oh FYI
That last link is NSFW.
Don’t be too anxious for the collapse of the churches. Those people aren’t giving up their superstitions. It’s frightening to imagine what irrationalities they might adhere to next.
Sven: I’m totally down with the Blessed Prayer Cloths– but I suggest that for true cross-marketing potential, we should contact the ShamWow guy and see if we can’t do some kind of special “Sham of Turin” edition. They’ll be aptly named, and of course sell themselves!
Maybe he could take a page from the Good Reverend Oral Roberts and declare that god will call him home unless his sheep donate 1 beelion dollars before next Tuesday (pinkie extended to corner of the mouth).
After all, its just making sure that they all know those Lear jets don’t run on prayers, after all, and good will won’t keep that 65-inch hi-def TV powered up.
grrr
alextangent @ 29
Dumper Crapper
Dummy Crapper
Crapper Dunce
Deeper Dumstercrap
Can I hear a big
Praise the Lord
Wait, before any panties get wadded – I think Tulse is from Tulsa.
And I come from the land of Big Hair -Big D.
To be fair, Schuller, while being a televangelist, is on the opposite side of fundies. As a mstter of fact, fundies detest him.
Schuller’s christianity is steeped in new-age feel-goody stuff, a far cry from literal bible interpretations.
He also has no qualms with evolution.
Claude @ 68
How about a small
Crap on all religions
Happy Monkey!
@38
————————————-
TV evangelists are all starting to look a bit haggard now.
————————————-
Gay and in denial?
… with all the wheelchair-bound kiddies in the periphery of the pulpit so the cameras can get really good shots. Schuller is just a gentler, more polished confidence man than Dobson, Robertson et al.
Just one suggestion: keep the life after death fairytale – it is a great cash generator as proven by about 8000 years of recorded history.
No need. You can replace it with singularity life extension tech, with multiple site remote backup ™
I’ve considered starting the first genuine techno-mystic religion. I even have a tag line. “Death may get you, but SLET have your back … up”.
You see, in the future the adherents of SLET will have powerful technology to reach back into the past, upload our personalities and download them into new vat grown super bodies. You just have to give me your money now, to ensure SLET stays around long enough to generate the techno-rapture.
You heard it here first. That’ll be €1,500 please.
Cough up, or you’ll go on the list for upload to the virtual hell matrix.
Fuck, I’ve actually frightened myself.
Nope — Houston. I figure that means I can speak authoritatively on such matters as southern aesthetics.
Years ago, my husband and I were in Orange County and decided to check out the Crystal Cathedral. I always thought it was supposed to be enormous. But it was much, much smaller than I had imagined. I think I said, “That’s IT?” We turned our car around in the parking lot and saw the “In-Car Worship Area”. This was on a Sunday about 10 or so years ago. I’m happy to say there were plenty of empty parking spaces there.
Mark Knopfler ftw! Several years ago he sang about these scammers. Went something like this:
There’s nothing left for luxuries
there’s nothing left to pay my heating bill.
But the good Lord will provide, I know he will.
So I send what I can to the man with the diamond ring.
(forgetting a bit here)
… but he sure can sing!
Just wait till the O Team adds a faith-based bailout to the stimulus package, then we’ll be seeing megachurchsters standing at the trough elbow to elbow with their bankster buddies pigging out on fresh batches of greenbacks made daily by Uncle Sam.
Today’s example of low-brow British gay bashing comes from Peter Hitchens. He’s becoming afraid of the backlash his very own homophobia is creating. How afraid should he be? Here’s an example of the extremism he’s encountered as a result of his publicly demonizing homosexuals:
Wow. He’s been called RUDE NAMES by the most militant of the Gay army. One is left to wonder how such a devastating attack could still leave him capable of continuing to function? I’d simply assumed that such a vicious and unprovoked response as getting a cold shoulder from the community you are demonizing would leave wounds that took years of painful rehabilitative surgeries. The fact that Mr. Hitchens has shouldered such assaults seemingly unmolested, is a remarkable testament to the durability of his constitution.
The entirety of his nonsense is here:
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2009/01/we-show-tolerance-to-gays-and-get-tyranny-in-return.html
…..if you feel the need for additional edification on the dangers of the INTERNATIONAL gay menace.
Enjoy.
Glad to hear it. Having had grown up in Orange County, this puts a grin on my face. I never understood why people are so into these mega-churches down there. I worked across the street from the Crystal Cathedral when the orchestrator shot himself, was quite a big deal, as I recall
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6726376/
I think every news story about megachurches experiencing “hard times” should include pictures of the pastors’ posh homes, offices and automobiles, and details on their lifestyles. Most of their followers need to wake the fuck up about how these pastors are using their churches as any sleazy car dealer would use his.
It must hurt the mega-churches more than anything else that their followers have less money to tithe, and, especially if their houses and jobs are poofing into non-existence, much less reason to pay god for their prosperity.
A cosy world is shattered, the sham warmth of christian fellowship has evaporated, and their mundane prayers definitively unanswered. After all, these people are not stupid: there’s something badly wrong in the kingdom of god – and, why does he need their money anyway?
Plus, I like to think, in the distance, the derisive laughter of the atheists, and the whispers of “fairy tales, fairy tales” in their ears…
I have a dream, but it seems that I am awake.
Thank you PZ, I was having a bad day and this cheered me right up!
Must point out that Peter Hitchens is Christopher’s right wing, christianist, fuckwit brother.
Just like Christopher, really, but not on our side.
There was also a Pentecostalist megachurch in Tulsa that shrank because its founder had an epiphany that there is no hell (at least, not after death). Though you might think it arbitrary, it’s still a step in the right direction of fewer crazy attributes of a Deity — historically, Universalism often leads to Unitarianism and then to atheism.
So the sad thing was that someone had thousands of followers when preaching hateful condemnation, but only a few hundred stuck with him when he preached compassion.
Seriously, I’m on to something here. Who’ll bankroll me?
The basic premise is that you supply the SLET™ techno-mage with precise co-ordinates in space and time of your location at a given instant. This is pretty important. We can add some whizzbang calculations around Earths orbit, it’s relative position in the galaxy and compensation for dark matter tidal effects.
So far so good. We then log these co-ordinates, and SLET™ congregations of the future, with the relevant technology, will initiate the techno-rapture “rescuing” those of us stranded here in the past. Of course. Only those who signup and provide the €1,500 “investment” fee to facilitate their retreival will be rescued.
They key point here is that you’re personality is backed up, you won’t be teleported into the future. That would be crazy talk. No. Your personality only is uploaded to the future … and get this …. due to …. erm … quantum flux thingy, the process is one way. Future SLET™ adherents will initiate your upload, but you will never know!
It’s almost perfect.
Unhappily, those that reject the way of SLET™, those who mock and scorn our effort to rescue humanity, who refuse to contribute a paltry €1,500 to the great ongoing research effort (likely to complete succesfully very soon … sooner than the return of Christ anyway), will end up on the upload to virtual hell list, were they will be forced to participate in a japanese game show, something involving ferrets and supersoakers firing slime, for eternity.
Sorry, I don’t make the rules … ok in this limited instance I do …. Every carrot needs its stick.
Now it’s perfect:-) Make all cheques out to CASH. Thx:-)
E.V. (#41) As a trans-women I deeply resent having my identity used as a insult. So FOAD!
Now that I have that out of the way, I do so hope that Schuller goes totally broke and has to sell of the Crystal Cathedral it’s self. It would warm the cockles of my hart to see that monstrosity torn down.
@ #80
Just wait till the O Team adds a faith-based bailout to the stimulus package,
There is $100 million for faith-based organizations in the House version of the stimulus bill, plus an amendment by Rep Susan Davis of CA to increase it to $500 million. The Senate version contains nothing for faith based organizations. We’ll see what comes out of the compromise that’s coming.
Mwahahaha!
I think one of the previous responders who worried about what will take the place of megachurches was right. Keep in mind, christianity is founded upon one thing: guilt. you have sinned and now deserve everything bad that comes to you… repent! Guilt is the key survival mechanism for this meme, it perfectly explains why you deserve the bad times.
Once this economic slump lasts past a year or two, watch for the fundies to go into full “repent” mode. It will be because “we” took god out of the schools, allowed gay marraige (or existance for that matter), and believed in evilution and bad science that the US is suffering.
The lure to this message will be seductive and complete, and the solution will be medieval. Economic upheavals are precisely what fanatics need to gain control. Watch for it.
In the letter, Schuller Sr. implored the Eagle’s Club members – who supply 30 percent of the church’s revenue – for donations and hinted that the show might go off the air without their support.
Nothing new there, really. “Evangelists” have been saying that for centuries. They’re in a perpetual state of always not having enough money. That’s where they got the term “fleece flockers”.
Methinks telly evangelism had seen its best days by the time Jim “I have sinned against the lawd..” Bakker…and his charming wife got flushed down the bog!..
He never really recovered nor did the Telly ‘prasin de lawd’ scams…shame…NOT!
They will die soon enough of financial starvation especially in the present climate…we can but hope!
Seems returns are not enough to keep them in the style they are accustomed to…they have been declining for a decade of so…most investors will turn off sooner or later…they might be barking but they is not crazy…even for jeebus!
It seems that although mainstream fuckwittery is in decline fundamentalist cloning is picking up the slack!
I can see the C of E splitting up soon as well into fundamental woo and middle of the road woo!
This trend might well continue until they resume real cult status of 1/2 a dozen fools per cult…one can hope!
Cos then they will turn on each other…as Christians always do!
Good news though…
I watched a few minutes of Praise The Lord the other day. Jan and her gay-looking husband Paul were on. They were saying that the LORD has told Paul to give up his ministry. Jan had the same cell-phone-call-from-god. I think they are turning everything over to their gay-looking son. I think his name is Matt.
Oh, and, Jan cried. She always cries. I always thought that her make-up routine was the opposite of E.V.’s method. She uses a power paint sprayer on Sunday morning, and then adds another inch every day after. She is, btw, around 73 years old. The only thing missing from her schtik is a furry little lap dog with its hair dyed to match hers.
The worst guy around today is Perry Stone. He’s a fat, backwoods, pennycos’l minister who makes up things as he goes along. Definitely inbred.
Sven @10:
I nominate that ShamWow guy. Already got ‘sham’ in his title. And his crazed-shill-on-speed shtick is winning over the deceased. Hell, my long dead ol’ granny ordered 2 of those damn ShamWow things just the other day! ;)
It seems that although mainstream fuckwittery is in decline fundamentalist cloning is picking up the slack!
It’s not cloning dammit! I’ve explained this. It’s delayed personality upload through time and space! Christ in a cryotank!!! Why does everyone confuse the SLETians with the cloning nuts.
It’s no surprise that the economy will impact the collection plates.
It’s not even that. Churches thrive when people are desperate. Robert A. Schuller just rubs a lot of people (especially older folks) the wrong way. Expect these people to find another church to tithe to, they’re not losing religion in droves. CC attendance steadily declined when the elder Schuller got too old to perform services regularly (well before the economy went to shit).
I doubt Robert A. would have taken over in the first place if it wasn’t for Robert H. backing him. The Board kicked him because the church was hemorrhaging attendees.
And here’s the real crux of the problem. The Schuller clan is larger than most know, and have a pretty huge sense of entitlement. Even the ones who “go to live with family in the country” for 9 months are rather comfortable.
Incidentally, there are several buildings there. The Cathedral itself isn’t that large, although it seats a good number of people. You’d have thought they would realize early in the design that they were just building a huge greenhouse, though.
The “In-Car Worship Area” is actually just a holdover from before the building of the actual Cathedral. The services used to be somewhat like old drive-in theaters (with people clipping speakers on their car, etc). Nobody actually uses it anymore.
That was a shame. Johnnie Carl was a rather nice guy. I dislike how in the news article it sounds like he was shooting at people. He appeared distraught at a church meeting earlier that day….really sad that nobody intervened before he snapped.
QFT. Before I was familiar with the Crystal Cathedral, I had intellectually come to atheism. Now (mostly through family), I can’t think of organized Christianity without a very visceral dislike.
I am envisioning some 1950’s-era science-fiction magazine illustrator’s darkish drawing of an empty and decaying Crystal Cathedral.
The evangelists are so straight that their female impersonators are women.
To find out why these churches are in decline we need to account for multiple variables:
1. Are they preaching prosperity theology? In economic downturns such as the current “deep recession”, those who invested in prosperity theology as consumers are suffering in equal rates to everyone else. So the religious consumers are going elsewhere.
2. What is the demographic base of Schuller and Kennedy, etc.?
Younger religious consumers are wanting a different religious product and different means of delivering the product. Many churches now offer two Sunday sermons, the earlier targeting a younger audience characterized by more modern music and a more “liberal” doctrinal focus. The later services are more traditional in delivery (the classic hymns, for example) as the demographic tends to be older and more “conservative” focusing on different themes (after life) and doctrines.
A recent PEW Forum poll shows that the fastest growing denomination is “non-denominationalist”. People are seeking a more private spirituality over more formalized and strict worship.
3. We must be careful not to equate religious belief with religious practice. Iceland is often cited as the most secular country in the world with a measly 2% regular church attendance rate. However, 4 out of 5 Icelanders believe in an afterlife and a deity. (Science education is not significantly positively correlated with non-theism except among “elite” scientists such as the members of the Royal Society–basically those that do “hard” research but not, say, a general practitioner of medicine.)
4. Why do people engage in religious practice?
The USA is often compared to third world (predominately Catholic or Muslim) non-industrialized countries. The USA, people often claim, is more like the Middle East or Central America in terms of religious practice than Western Europe. Why? Because the USA is more like those countries than Western Europe in terms of social infrastructure particularly education and healthcare. Religious practice is mediated by access to and equal opportunity in social goods and services such as equality in opportunity in employment, in education, and access to affordable healthcare. Religious fundamentalism is positively correlated with religious practice. If we want to reduce religious fundamentalism, we should improve secular access to and quality of social goods and services.
I’ve made several comments today here and elsewhere within the SB Borg, and so far haven’t once confronted the dreaded SciBlog Submission Timeout!
Has anyone else encountered this bizarre anomaly?
If so, we can claim the world’s first Replicated Miracle.
Hallelujah!
First, an observation: Schueller’s son is made of plastic. Look up his picture. I’ve seen this guy on TV and I know he’s a lifesize animatronic Ken doll.
Second, the fall of the Crystal Cathedral is actually a good thing to the Bible Belt holy rollers, who see Schueller as too elitist, moderate and down right uppity to be a real servant of teh Jeez.
Now, if I heard that they were selling off their buildings and property and jets and mansions and mountains of possessions and then giving them back to the people they originally hussled them from – now that would be good news. That would put a smile on my face. That, and jail time for these crooks, every last one of them.
The only televangelists I send my money to are Bobby C. and Kimberly at HSN (the Hail Satan Network): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCiTlMrMAhU
I think you’re being overly optimistic, PZ. If they have $65 MM in property that they can sell, then I doubt that they are in any immediate danger of folding.
Remember, God is watching over them. So, everything will be fine.
Y’know, I wrote a lengthy apology and then un-uh. *delete* The FOAD shit pissed me off. This offense-sensitivity shit is driving me nuts. I called and asked a transgendered fried and she couldn’t figure out what the fuss was about. She saw the picture from RevBDC and had the same response. Did you even bother to look at the picture or did you just fire off an immediate assault?
I stand by what I said, since it was said with levity. I hate being politically correct at every junction, and you don’t know me, you don’t know my family, so you have no idea if I have GLBT siblings or extended family or who my friends are.
You can even make all the Kenny Rogers jokes you want.
You START with a Fuck off & die, and you have already escalated the dialogue to a flamewar. It’s not advisable since I tend to run scorched earth campaigns.
*deep breath*
So if I unintentionally offended you for using “tranny” rather than transgendered, I apologize to you and anyone in the transgendered community.
Fried, doh friend
I wonder if somebody can help me promote science in the Netherlands. It’s not bad over here, but it seems to be getting worse.
At the end of February all addresses in the Netherlands will receive a leaflet about creationism (if you know Dutch, read about it here: http://creatie.info/ ). I want to print flyers and drop them in mailboxes a couple of days after the leaflet has been sent. In my flyer I would like to put that evolution is supported by a lot of research and experiments, so I want to know the number of research results/experiments in, say, the last 50 years. Please note that I am only interested in the ones supporting evolution, because the leaflet specifically attacks that. Can someone give a reasonable indication?
I will use a lower number than you suggest, because I would rather have biologists say “that’s incorrect, it’s a lot more” when someone asks them about it, instead of saying the number is too high.
Thanks in advance for your help.
P.S. I totally agree on Calvin & Hobbes.
And Sun Myung Moon (he is 88), his sons are all drug addicts and worse.
You don’t know what you are talking about. One of Moon’s sons was a drugged up wife beater but he died last year. You can watch him in action here. (tip: you have to hit the play button a couple of times)
Anyone who thinks the Moon organization is going down or will die when Moon does is uninformed – which is most everyone when it comes to Moon including some people who write about him. He has placed four of his highly educated kids in key leadership roles and the members will follow them like they have been conditioned to follow Moon. Moon in fact says he will “run it from the Spiritworld” after he dies so the members will act like he is still running it anyway. They depend on their businesses, swindling widows and other unknown sources to fund the organization. If you eat sushi there is a 7 chance in 9 that you are helping fund his movement since he supplies 7,000 of the 9,000 sushi joints in the country.
Along with funding front groups and people like Falwell, they have spent 2-3 billion on the Washington Times alone molding our nation’s politics right bringing it in line with his ideology. If you think his death will be more than a bump in the road you really have no clue. Actually, it will make it easier for them.
Read this for just a little of what is going on around the world that you have no knowledge of because you are blind.
Woohoo – research in the last 50 years! That’s a very tall order! You’d be better off, say, watching the David Attenborough video and making some notes, then read a good book, then go to talkorigins.net, then settle on a very few topics. Some might be: fossil evidence (transitional forms etc – and that there is fossil evidence), age of the earth, geology, carbon dating (not 10000 years old then!); DNA evidence and genetic discoveries; morphology – similarity of skeletons etc; bioecography – similarity of local species, marsupials in Australia and so on (continental drift); virtually all scientists accept it; mutation of viruses…
There is overwhelming evidence, but beware all of it is contested – ie denied – by creationists. Finally, take their leaflet and take apart each argument.
Good luck. Unfortunately ignorance is very sticky and difficult to clean up!
Oh, and you won’t be alone. There’s sure be a Dutch scientific organisation to oppose this nonsense. Hook up with them! And remember, the only oppositon of evolution is religious – not a bit of scientific evidence agaist it exists.
That’s it, Reverend Oral Roberts. You’re not bringing in enough money. That 900-foot tall Jesus is coming to take you from your flock. He’ll carry you to the top of the Empire State Building, I imagine. Unlike Fay Wray, no-one will be interested in rescuing you.
This links to a helpful review of all the different scientific research done just on eyes:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/12/10/you-want-eyes-we-got-eyes/
By the way, the journal that the articles are from is completely freely available, and has more downloadable articles:
Evolution: Education and Outreach
Note the title, by the way. They want these articles to be used for education, so they are specifically written with laypersons in mind.
The Index of Creationist Claims has point-by-point refutations of many common nonsensical statements by creationists. Unfortunately, it’s a bit outdated, and somewhat brief. But it almost certainly hits most of the points that creationists will use to confuse people (they don’t change that much), and often have citations from the scientific literature to help underscore the point of where the creationists are confused or lying.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/
And there’s also some helpful FAQ-type articles:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-mustread.html
The NCSE may have some useful links as well:
http://ncseweb.org/evolution
I grew up near the Crystal Cathedral which is also near Disneyland. It was preceded by the first church designed for drive-in sermons. People would drive into the parking lot and the whole side of the building would slide open revealing the stage. The sermon was broadcast on a low AM frequency for car radios. Schuller’s message was the “Jebus Lite” style, perfect for the suburbs of Disneyland. The lot was packed very Sunday.
That drive-in church was the inspiration for my oft repeated joke…. and now I have another excuse to post it again.
“I’ll have The Big Jesus to go, easy on the cross and hold the nails.”
Hi Anthony,
Thanks for your help. I know there is a lot, and I should have mentioned that it does not have to be about biology. I just figured this blog would be a good place to ask.
I just want to mention a number so people can compare it to the number of documents from the other side: 1 (if you are strict and only look at Genesis 1 and remove the redundancies and non-information, you are left with a single page). The number does not have to be accurate and I will be conservative so they can’t tell me I exaggarated.
I’ve read a number of blogs discussing the leaflet, and some people are organizing stuff. Unfortunately this all seems to be preaching to the choir. I just want to make sure people don’t take the leaflet as is without considering the scientific side properly.
Your idea about debunking their statements is a good idea, and the blogs (from Atheists [they get a capital, we get a capital] and Christians) have already done so very well, so I just want to point to their blogs. I also want to keep the flyer short: one page of text. I will look for good websites and books for laymen and mention them, so people can get more information if they want to.
Note that the tone of the creationists leaflet is very condescending. I want to be more respectful. It will be clear I have a bias towards science, but I also want people to decide for themselves instead feeling like being pushed.
Well Johan you could try:
CREATIONISM – the evidence says NO!
The Earth is 4.5 billions of years old
There are millions of different species – 240,000 of fly alone!
All animals and plants on earth are related.
Fossils show common descent
DNA proves common ancestry
99% of biologists accept evolution
Viral mutations prove evolution
ALL LIFE EVOLVED. HAVE YOU?
But hey, what do I know?
What do you think, fellow Pharyngulites?
[Bah, comment held due to too many links. Reposting and splitting up]
This links to a helpful review of all the different scientific research done just on eyes:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2008/12/10/you-want-eyes-we-got-eyes/
By the way, the journal that the articles are from is completely freely available, and has more downloadable articles:
Evolution: Education and Outreach
Note the title, by the way. They want these articles to be used for education, so they are specifically written with laypersons in mind.
The Index of Creationist Claims has point-by-point refutations of many common nonsensical statements by creationists. Unfortunately, it’s a bit outdated, and somewhat brief. But it almost certainly hits most of the points that creationists will use to confuse people (they don’t change that much), and often have citations from the scientific literature to help underscore the point of where the creationists are confused or lying.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/
And there’s also some helpful FAQ-type articles:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-mustread.html
The NCSE has some useful links as well:
http://ncseweb.org/evolution
Including this one:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01
Oh, and one more that I like:
This has a careful explanation of how fossils are compared and understood as being transitional. Note that it also addresses Creationist confusion about what a transitional fossil is, and references a very recent fossil find, Tiktaalik.
http://www.csicop.org/intelligentdesignwatch/fishibian.html
I use to listen to D. James Kennedy on the radio. I thought he was a windbag. His views on evolution got me interested in why so many evangelicals are anti-Darwin. (That and the fact my sister, an evangelical, told me the earth is only 6,000 years old.)
Anyhow, it’s nice to see his legacy isn’t thriving!
The individual evangelists are still trying to inflict their pottiness on all and sundry though – ignoring other people’s right to freedom from their religion. Eg this nurse lying to herself (and others) about “not [forcing] her Christian beliefs on anyone” and about prayer being “a valuable part of the care [she gives]”.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7863699.stm
If “the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith”, were at all honest (which they won’t be), they would tell her she should have stuck with her right to pray in the privacy of her own home/mind, for anyone at all that she wished, instead of flaunting her religious idiocy in public at her unfortunate victims.
Thanks for all the links. Like I said I don’t think it is wise to refute their arguments in my flyer:
– I want people to discover instead of being told,
– people won’t read it if there is too much text, and
– refuting has been done by other people better than I can.
Also, I am looking for links to Dutch websites. Not everyone in Holland can read English websites about science, and I also want parents to be able to sit down with their children and read it.
I just wanted a number. Damn scientists, can’t even figure out something as basic as what they have achieved. I am switching sides. Creationists at least know how to count to 1 ;-)
Again, thanks for all the help. I guess it is best to mention a very low number, thousands, or leave out a number altogether.
PS and it’s far from being her first offence – having already received an official warning for proselytising on duty.
There isn’t a number. Evolution has had no serious scientific challenges for (exactly) 150 years – the evidence has just piled up. And you will find religious support for evolution too because not all Christians by any means deny it. But alas, there isn’t any one argument you can use to “prove” it.
But there must be Dutch sites out there, and you won’t be the only one to want to counter this rubbish. Seek, and you will find!
Oh, wait! You just want a number of publications on evolution in the past 50 years?
No problemo! scholar.google.com allows you to limit the year(s) published. So for 1959-2009:
Results 1 – 10 of about 78,900 for evolution
For that matter, so does Pubmed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/advanced
(“1959″[Publication Date] : “2009”[Publication Date]) AND (evolution)
Items 1 – 20 of 232986
Huh. I have no idea why there’s such a great disparity between the numbers. I suppose you could also say “Many tens of thousands”, which would cover both numbers.
Thanks Owlmirror, now I know I can at least put tens of thousands in without a problem. And these are just the once explicitly mentioning evolution. I bet there are many more that support evolution without evolution being the area of research.
I know there is lots of evidence, but I feel just saying that and pointing out the truth won’t help. This is how the creationists handle it in their leaflet: everything you need to know is in this leaflet, now decide!
I am hoping to teach people a bit about how science works. This is the main focus of the flyer: science works because of the way things are done. It may not be flawless, but scientists are continually working on improving our knowledge and understanding.
Hopefully this will encourage people to widen their view and learn more about the world, and make them more critical thinkers about a lot of things. The supernatural is hot in the Netherlands: Uri Geller has a show, Char, Derek Ogilvie and dozens of paid phone numbers for psychic stuff.
I am searching and finding. And I still have a couple of weeks to go.
I’m a freethinker like most of the people here, but have to admit that I sometimes found D. James Kennedy really entertaining… in what I’m certain were unintentional ways. In that sense, I was sad to learn of his death. I can actually do a pretty good impression of Kennedy, even though most people I know don’t appreciate it since they have no idea who he was.
Various people here at Pharyngula (including PZ) are somewhat to the left of me politically, but–trust me!–I have much more in common with PZ than with DJK.
TheFridgenometer
Planning to attend a lecture by Francis Collins on the “Language of God”. What is his theme? What can I expect to hear?
Silver Fox wrote:
Planning to attend a lecture by Francis Collins on the “Language of God”. What is his theme? What can I expect to hear?
Putting aside the fact that you seem to be coming here only to ask particularly inane questions, I’ll hazard a guess and say it’ll be combination of a) fluff, b) wank and c) tripe*, with the veneer of his actual scientific achievements brushed on top in an attempt to lend it credibility.
*You could call it fluffwanktripe. Hey, the Germans make words that way; why shouldn’t I?
I find it hilarious that they consider it a family business, and I don’t doubt their conflict over the ‘vision’ of the church was more over the ‘vision’ of who should get what cut of the profits.
Let me Wiki that for you…
(was that so hard?)
He’s going to on the one hand point to the fact that the evidence for evolution exists in our DNA… but on the other hand since we don’t know everything about evolution and cosmology, there’s still room to say “God did it!”
Whoop-tee-doodle-doo.
Men like Schuller are incapable of planning for bad times, since their personal philosophies refuse to admit the possibility that such a thing can happen.
OT: Silly old goat, use Google. It really is easy. Even a dim git like you can type in the words for a search engine.
Who were the guys who dressed up like gold lamé superheroes and tore phonebooks in half? They ruled! :-) Especially now that Mythbusters showed me how to tear a phone book in half.
Except for the organ, there’s not much of interest inside that crumbling glass thing…
#135: I loved the Bodybuilders for Christ, jumpin’ all around in their undies, showin’ the power of god by rippin’ up phonebooks and blowin’ up hot water bottles. (Apparently god doesn’t like phonebooks or hot water bottles.) I saw one inverview where one of them said that their group was called Integrity. I guess no one told him until later that Integrity was the name of the GLBT caucus in the Episcopal Church.
Silver Fox, what is it about you and your particular brand of asshattery that causes you to come to threads and ask completely unrelated questions that you should be perfectly capable of answering yourself?
Jesus said people had to be poor to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Now they can be true Christians! Why are they so unhappy?
I’m not sure “watching his life’s work crumble” is appropriate here. His life’s work was to get lots of money, he’s got lots of money. If his show shuts down I guess he’ll just have to console himself with his however many millions of dollars.
It always warms my heart when I see a church being converted into a restaurant, bar, night club…If you are ever in Pittsburgh, here are three places to consider
http://www.churchbrew.com/church_history.html
http://www.sphinx-cafe.com/
http://www.charliemurdochs.net/
@ Norm #19 – Nah, I just renamed Peter as “Steve” for some unknown purpose. He’s such a tremendous assclown that I can’t bring myself to call him by his real name, much like….
@ Holbach #20 – “Deepcrap”. That’s an amazing renaming. I thought I was clever with “Douchepak”, but yours is better, sir. My commendations.
Reminds of a Gary Larson cartoon from years back. There was a field full of sheep which were obviously all wolves dressed up in sheep fleeces. One asks “Excuse me, but are there any real sheep here?” (Apologies if I do not remember it exactly.) Perhaps people are really becoming bored with being fleeced by too many wolves.
A mere glance at the acres, and acres, and acres of carparks surrounding the buildings will explain fully why they are in decline. Like so much else in our bigger-is-better societies, they are dependent on cheap and abundant oil.
Prepare for the believers of mysterious forces to crawl forth and make claims:
“Man shoots self on altar of Crystal Cathedral”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29262195/
That is recent-shooting-death #3 on grounds of said cathedral.