You are all godless heathens…


…and this site is fertile ground for those seeking to spread the word of Jesus Christ. The readership here is far more in need of the word than Egypt, Colombia, Iraq, Solomon Islands, Malaysia, Zambia, Togo, Austria, Pakistan or Iran. So, please, get a bible. They’re free, and if you don’t take them, they’ll be sent off to some poor innocent in some nice country like Egypt, Colombia, Iraq, Solomon Islands, Malaysia, Zambia, Togo, Austria, Pakistan or Iran, where they aren’t needed as much.

Comments

  1. DangerAardvark says

    You know, I keep hearing that the Bible is the most printed book in the world, but is that because of demand or just because they won’t stop printing the fucking things?

  2. Kat says

    Egypt, Colombia, Iraq, Solomon Islands, Malaysia, Zambia, Togo, Austria, Pakistan or Iran

    What’s Austria doing on that list? Seems so random. Are they too Catholic or something?

  3. Jparenti says

    I imagine it’s because Jebus keeps telling them to print them. You know, the imaginary voices in their heads.
    I always keep a Bible handy. Do you have any idea how many times I’ve proven a point to a faithful Christian by using the book they’ve supposedly read? It’s the best fatal blow I can think of. Unfortunately, they never seem to see it that way.

  4. Matt7895 says

    I’d get one but I don’t think I could stand the look on the postwoman’s face when she comes delivering it to my door.

  5. says

    Besides giving me a pleasant memory of hearing They Might Be Giants sing “Alphabet of Nations” this weekend… I think I may be missing the point. Sure, by taking a bible, (very much like taking a bullet), we save some poor schmoe in a foreign land, but, really – how many bibles can you take? 2? 10? 20? They won’t stop printing the damned things. You might selflessly leap on one grenade, but how are you going to get up and do it over and over again, (to muddle up my simile).

    I’m sorry, but I think it’s time someone took a bible for me.

  6. Kyle W. says

    @ #12

    You didn’t get your Narnia DVD’s because you didn’t adequately believe they were coming. More faith. Less complaining.

  7. Quiet_Desperation says

    One of the door to door types gave me a Book Of Mormon a few years back. Had no use for it, obviously, but I have to admit it was pretty nice. Actual leather cover, beautiful end papers, solid binding. It’s still on a shelf in my house somewhere.

  8. tsg says

    Besides giving me a pleasant memory of hearing They Might Be Giants sing “Alphabet of Nations” this weekend… I think I may be missing the point. Sure, by taking a bible, (very much like taking a bullet), we save some poor schmoe in a foreign land, but, really – how many bibles can you take? 2? 10? 20? They won’t stop printing the damned things. You might selflessly leap on one grenade, but how are you going to get up and do it over and over again, (to muddle up my simile).

    I’m sorry, but I think it’s time someone took a bible for me.

    That was my thought, too. The last thing I want to do is give the impression that there is more of a demand for the things than there really is.

  9. clinteas says

    Pinched one from the hotel room on my last holiday,Im all set to challenge Patricia for her knowledge of verses.

  10. Matt Penfold says

    Well Austria did just have a general election in which far right parties got 30% of the vote. However I think many of those will already have found a god: Just not a very nice one it would seem.

  11. Jason says

    They should send more to the northern regions to help people save money and/or effort on finding firewood.

    @tsg
    No biggie if we create demand, it will cost them more money. What else are they going to use their donation money for? Charity? LOL. More like cars and houses for top church clergy.

  12. Nicole TWN says

    DaveR@10: I’m pretty sure RD has bibles coming out of his ears. Metaphorically speaking. He could probably insulate his house with them.

    For you crafty types, why not turn your free bible into a book safe?

  13. Ploon says

    Be careful. You may think requesting a free bible looks pretty harmless, but I wouldn’t give these people my personal details if they promised me tickets to the Superbowl and plane tickets to get there. I can already see the godspam flooding my physical mailbox.

  14. tsg says

    For you crafty types, why not turn your free bible into a book safe?

    Mostly because that’s the first one thieves check. It’s well known that people don’t actually read the things.

  15. ReDSHiFT says

    I can’t wait for my free bible for the sole purpose of filming the expression of the postman/woman’s face as I light it ablaze in front of him/her. ahh.. the small pleasures in life..

  16. says

    @#18: Most of the “evangelical” branches of the xian cults consider the Catholics as non-‘saved’. The Baptists (I was raised in a Baptist home) preach that the Catholics are all going to Hell.

    Which, BTW, is one of the fundamental reasons that Christians are not nearly as dangerous as muslims. While the muslim superstition is somewhat fragmented, it is much easier to play the “both ends against the middle” game with Christians. When you can get them all stirred up about each other, it distracts them from more dangerous pursuits, like political repression of atheists.

    P.S. It appears that this site has something against Firefox. I had to use the MS virus-magnet to post this.

    http://www.chl-tx.com
    “without the 2nd Amendment, the rest of the document is just wishful thinking”

  17. moother says

    i’ll be making sure all moslem families in my neighbourhood will be receiving theirs…

    it’s the surest way to get this garbage where it belongs.

    in the garbage can.

  18. Patricia says

    Thou shalt not challenge Patricia on her knowledge of verses.
    Thou shall surprise and delight her with quotes from Cervantes and Balzac! Thereby causing great gales of giggling and twirling in the universe.

  19. Leucine Zipper says

    You dudes are one collection of sick puppies. So there’s no god! Why waste your life on a ‘there’s no god website?’ …. or a ‘there’s no Santa Clause’ website …. or a ‘I don’t believe in the Easter Bunny website?’ If there’s no god, get over it!! Get a life ….. like a job … or a hobby …… why not party more, before you’re so old you’ve lost your mind and soil your diapers all the time. I don’t believe in a lot of things, but I sure do not waste what little time I have in this life hanging out on a ‘I don’t believe in whatever’ websites! There are a ton of multiplayer games out here that are way more fun than hanging out with a bunch of I-don’t believe-in-god-or-whatever sickos who seemed obsessed with not believing in something, not to mention, obsessed with dissing other people who believe in whatever you don’t believe in. You all need to see Dr. Phil …. Big Time! Get a life! Do something useful … or at least something fun.

  20. says

    Leucine @ 39 : I’m having fun. We’re all having fun. Except for you.

    Do you think you get to decide what is fun for all of us too?

  21. Northern Virginia says

    “… I wouldn’t give these people my personal details if they promised me tickets to the Superbowl and plane tickets to get there. I can already see the godspam flooding my physical mailbox.”

    You can be sure one of the primary objectives is to try to guilt recipients into supporting their mission by sending them “whatever you can afford.”

  22. Sarcastro says

    Wait, I should start doing something useful with my life… like playing multiplayer online games!?!? Shit dude, why not just get a good smack habit? Horse is way more fun than WoW and only slightly more addictive and socially destructive.

    Look Leuc, it isn’t called “making fun” because it isn’t fun. And you’re the one who apparently watches Dr. Phil so don’t EVER tell me I’ve wasted a second of my life.

  23. Woodwose says

    If these are the good versions with the fine thin paper, we could repurpose them as pads of origami practice paper.

    Come to think of it, I wonder what would happen to a busker that set up a stand creating paper frogs etc. out of bible pages at a couple of bucks a pop? One or two free bibles could set him up for the summer.

  24. BdN says

    Leucine,”You dude are one sick puppy. So there’s no fun! Why waste your life on a ‘there’s no fun website?’

    What are you doing here on this thread, wasting your precious gaming time ?
    “I don’t believe in a lot of things, but I sure do not waste what little time I have in this life hanging out on a ‘I don’t believe in whatever’ websites!”

    Well, I find a lot of things unfunny, but I sure do not waste what little time I have in this life trying to convince people it is unfunny…

  25. tsg says

    You dudes are one collection of blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

    It never ceases to amaze me how far out of their way some people will go to tell you how uninteresting they think the subject of someone’s blog entry is.

    Go read something else. No one’s got a gun to your head.

  26. Hideki says

    Hihi

    My bible is apparently on its way… I do actually have one, I’m not sure where though, not seen it since I moved nearly three years ago, perhaps He took it back due to lack of use…

    Irritatingly, that form requires a phone number to be entered, I’d be surprised if everyone in the countries mentioned has a working phone line.

  27. Kevin Hower says

    Just imagine what could be bought if all the money spent on manufacturing and mailing those bibles- and on the website space for that link- were spent on food, clothing and real education instead of spreading ancient superstition to people who need those former things much more.

  28. Qwerty says

    I’d rather have a book on my shelves that I intent to read some day.

    I do remember when we received our grandmother’s Bible after my uncle died. This was a Bible printed in the 1800s and it had a Temperance Pledge page and she made him sign it. According to my father he didn’t keep the pledge.

    Oh, well, Jesus can’t solve all the world’s problems.

  29. says

    Hey we don’t need any more bibles here in Colombia, thank you very much, the Catholic Church has it’s evil hands around our necks tight enough.

  30. Dahan says

    pzpeahead,

    For every Bible you nitwits request, they just print more, which WILL end up in those countries.

    Not if I toss it in the trash when I get it or burn it in my stove. What did you think I would do with it? Donate it to Goodwill?

  31. barry says

    PZ – thanks for the hot tip! I have been looking for a nice period fantasy piece to read, and now I’m getting one for free! Sweet.

  32. Tom Nielsen says

    I added “God bless you” in the comment field to make me stand out from all the other bible-requesting pharynguloids. And by “God”, I of course mean the flying spaghetti monster.

    I actually don’t have a bible, but I would love to have one, so to better debate Christians.

  33. spgreenlaw says

    Tom Nielsen,

    I did a similar thing, writing “Thank you and may God bless,” in the comment section.

    Sending in a Bible request brought me back to my high school days, when we would sneak out of our dorms (I went to a boarding school) past lights out to go smoke in the basement bathroom. I have not felt this sketchy in a long time.

  34. Feynmaniac says

    Actually, I can’t think of a better way to convert people to atheism than to have them read the bible.

  35. zdkm says

    I wonder which version they send. In their bookstore they sell a hardcover KJV and a paperback NIV, along with something called an “Amplified Bible” and some “study” bibles.

  36. --PatF in Madison says

    Aha! A coincidence…

    Earlier today I was walking across the campus of the University of Wisconsin. It was saturated with smiling men handing out free “testaments”. They were the cheap little kind with tiny print and were completely useless for wrapping fish or garbage or gifts. I was offered several but I ignored the offers.

    Now for the good news… Hundreds – perhaps thousands – of young students were wandering by, too. I did not see one of them take a bible.

    WE ARE RAISING A GENERATION OF INFIDELS!! HOORAY!!

  37. says

    Man, I’ve got a really good version of the Old Testament from my sophemore year of high school (Jewish Confirmation, strangely enough). In the margins are all of my notes about inconsistencies and bad laws.

    Yay! My crisis of faith more or less recorded in a holy book.

  38. DonZilla says

    “For you crafty types, why not turn your free bible into a book safe?”

    Or hide your porn in it? :)

  39. says

    Have you heard of the bible smugglers? They try to sneak copies of bibles into countries like China and Islamic countries. I think they want to get caught too. Part of their martyr persecution complex I reckon. The funny thing is as far as China is concerned bible smuggling is a waste of time as you can legally buy bibles in China…
    http://www.journeyonline.com.au/showArticle.php?categoryId=2&articleId=776

    What I’ve always wondered though is how they smuggle bibles in? Do they stick one in a condom and then stick it up their arse?

  40. Jerome Triplett says

    One less bible in the world to ambush an unsuspecting human. In 4-6 weeks anyway. Bibles make good kindling, though it might also be fun to cut it up Jefferson style and shock my Christian friends.

  41. Architeuthis says

    During my stint in the army, I made sure to accept any of the free bibles they were handing out.

    they’re compact, they’re useful for lots of projects, they’re good for reminding you of all the crazy shit in the bible, and if you ever get confronted by a fundangelical, it’s wonderful when you can whip one out and they cant.

    I mean, they’re fundamentally unprepared for a discussion already, they may as well forget their textbook too. I love pointing out where they misquote.

  42. uncle frogy says

    Leucine Zipper

    once upon a time I went to church, even went to a church school but I no longer go to church. I have followed my own path and have been content to argue and reason with friends and others over religion and philosophy. I was content to let others live their lives and believe as they wished and respect thoes trying to live an honorable life.

    Things have changed for the worse in the last few years. The growth of militant religion and its conflicts and absolutist practices all over the whole world has forced me to change my mind some. Most of the world is now threatened by theocracy of one kind or another and I find that I must resist this tyranny along the other more well known forms of fascism and communism . When militant fundamentalist religion and politics join all liberty is threatened!

    Only by resisting openly and speaking freely is liberty preserved not by slipping in the background and “getting a life” and partying!
    Taking a stand and being involved is getting a life in its full meaning and implications.
    If you think that these religionists are not a threat you have not been paying attention. If you think this struggle is against god you are not paying attention.
    There are no “super natural beings” only people and their ideas so the struggle is against people who want to control everyone according to a “story” they think is true in all ways and who see that all means justify the ends. So go ahead and party but on when they come for you don’t act surprised.

  43. Kim says

    #19 – The Austrian politicians even of the right-wing parties *do* make sure everybody knows they are devout Catholics.

  44. says

    300,000 Bibles to new believers across the globe in places like Egypt, Colombia, Iraq, Solomon Islands, Malaysia, Zambia, Togo, Austria, Pakistan and Iran

    Obviously Austria is a misprint. They meant Australia. We are sorely in need of saving down here. A poll was released today that said if you Americans were to let us vote for you nearly three quarters of all Australians would vote for Obama.

    http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/obama-wins-by-a-landslide–in-australia/2008/09/29/1222650989574.html

    We really need a good thrashing with a really big book if we would vote for that man over such a godly couple as McCain/Palin.

  45. QrazyQat says

    The gay community bankrupted Jerry Falwell’s group a couple decades ago by ordering free bibles from him, often sent to ficticious addresses (which meant double postage, more than the price of printing them). Now that would be wrong, that’s for sure, but sometimes wrong is right.

  46. says

    Ploon @ 22
    “Be careful. You may think requesting a free bible looks pretty harmless, but I wouldn’t give these people my personal details if they promised me tickets to the Superbowl and plane tickets to get there. I can already see the godspam flooding my physical mailbox.”

    This was the first thing I thought of as well. Not the sort of people I’d want to have my home address.

  47. D Christensen says

    What I’ve always wondered though is how they smuggle bibles in? Do they stick one in a condom and then stick it up their arse?

    That gave me an unhealthy mental image of a few people I know… that inexplicably gave me a huge smile.

  48. jagannath says

    Hmm, maybe I should borrow the phonebooks of my country from th elibrary and start filling out orders. Might need a script for that :) to get two or three for each.

  49. Holbach says

    Austria? This seems to be a hell of an inclusion with countries that religion parasitizes as a result of poverty and abject despair.

  50. Patricia says

    Wouldn’t ‘The Bible According to the Ilk’ be a gut buster. Imagine the Song of Soloman translated by Bride of Shrek, Scooter, Quiet Desperation and myself…then Genesis 1 by PZ, Genesis 2 by Holbach.

  51. says

    Hm, an ethical dilemma:

    Do I have them send me one in hopes that some potential future infidel will be left uncorrupted, or do I pass it up because in all likelihood it won’t be the NRSV + Apocrypha I’ve wanted for some time? (Right now, if I need a Bible, I usually use the New American Bible. But I’d really rather have one with all the Greek books, not just the ones the Catholic Church liked.)

  52. cicely says

    Leucine Zipper @ 30:

    Get a life! Do something useful … or at least something fun.

    We are. Right here.

    Tag.

  53. Andrew G says

    I noticed Antarctica is on the drop down list of countries to choose from. Is the thought of Hell somehow comforting to someone whose butt is half frozen solid?

  54. Nerd of Redhead says

    Patricia

    Wouldn’t ‘The Bible According to the Ilk’ be a gut buster. Imagine the Song of Soloman translated by Bride of Shrek, Scooter, Quiet Desperation and myself…then Genesis 1 by PZ, Genesis 2 by Holbach.

    My head is twirling over the thought of SoS being rewritten by that group.
    We would also have to make room for Blake Stacey and Truth Machine somewhere. It might be interesting to find some books for the libertarians to play with–say Leviticus.

  55. Epinephrine says

    Besides giving me a pleasant memory of hearing They Might Be Giants sing “Alphabet of Nations” this weekend…

    I like The Alphabet of Nations, but I found this the other day, pretty cool too.

  56. CosmicTeapot says

    I have the Skeptics Annotated Bible when I need to reference the bible, so I will pass on this one.

    It’s much more educational.

  57. CosmicTeapot says

    Leucine Zipper

    I do have a very interesting life. I only read this site when I need a break from work.

    It can also be educational. Or is learning a waste of time in your opinion?

  58. chancelikely says

    Is there a law, similar to Poe’s Law, that states that anyone telling people to ‘get a life’ is probably the one most desperately in need of one?

    If not, let me suggest “Shatner’s Law”, on the basis of that SNL sketch.

  59. tsg says

    Is there a law, similar to Poe’s Law, that states that anyone telling people to ‘get a life’ is probably the one most desperately in need of one?

    I think it’s fairly self-evident. Naming it would be like having a name for “grass is green”.

    If not, let me suggest “Shatner’s Law”, on the basis of that SNL sketch.

    It’s not quite the same. Shatner was at least invited to speak. A better analogy would be someone who goes to Star Trek conventions just tell everyone there how pointless Star Trek conventions are.

  60. Patricia says

    Nerd of Redhead – No doubt Blake Stacey is going to volunteer to translate all of the parts about Asses. That is his area of brilliant expertise.Perhaps we could lure MAJeff back if we offer him Leviticus!
    I know we have a Unicornist or two here. Ichthyic should be up to Jonah.
    Who wants the Begats?
    Oh yeah, Truth Machine – genocides. ;o)

  61. Nerd of Redhead says

    JK, we show religion all the respect it deserves–none.
    Nothing is sacred. Deal with it.

  62. Ichthyic says

    weird. that post #88 was obviously supposed to be in the thread on the youtube crackergate.

    since I hadn’t even opened the thread where it ended up, I really can’t figure out how it got there.

  63. says

    Oh and while we’re talking bibles, I must plug The Bible with Sources Revealed. It’s actually just the Torah but it’s color-coded by source (J,E,D,P, etc) and a whole lot of fun.

  64. Jadehawk says

    sites like that are the ultimate proof that Christianity is singlehandedly responsible for deforestation.

  65. Teh Merkin says

    Sleazy, Paul. Very sleazy.

    1. Deluded people offer free book of Bronze Age myths.
    2. Request said free book.
    3. ???
    4. Profit!

    I don’t see what is sleazy about requesting a free book. Maybe you can enlighten this heathen.

    Or maybe not.

  66. Orson Zedd says

    I hope Boris Badenov of Russia’s Base on King George III Island, Antarctica likes his new bible.

  67. Rey Fox says

    “There are a ton of multiplayer games out here that are way more fun than hanging out [here]”

    Pbbbt. No there aren’t. I watched a guy playing a MMORPG in college once. Just ran around a big area killing random things while illiterates “chatted” in the bottom of the screen. I guess if that’s your idea of “fun”, then have at it.

  68. progressive homeschooler says

    I take free bibles whenever I can, so I can help rid the world of such trash. Someone at my library often puts some on the table by the book return in the lobby. There’s some blather on the inside cover about free bibles for anyone who needs one. Every time my 11 year old son sees them, he takes them and gleefully throws them in the trash can. That’s my boy!

  69. David Marjanović, OM says

    What’s Austria doing on that list? Seems so random. Are they too Catholic or something?

    Well, actually, the religion there is football (soccer for Americans).

    “without the 2nd Amendment, the rest of the document is just wishful thinking”

    Please. You can’t wage war against an army. You wouldn’t even draw faster.

    The Austrian politicians even of the right-wing parties *do* make sure everybody knows they are devout Catholics.

    That’s a mighty exaggeration. And what do you mean by “even”?

  70. Jochen Bedersdorfer says

    Did anyone get the irony of having a ‘Feed the Hungry’ link on this web page?

    I was just wondering how many lives they could save by NOT printing the bible and instead using this money to actually help people in need!

  71. E.V. says

    #30:
    You seem to be under the mistaken impression that what we’re doing isn’t fun. And ridiculing people with the improbable name of Leucine Zipper is really fun. You don’t qualify strictly as a concern troll…kvetch troll perhaps?
    Come back soon and tell us all the fun and worthwhile things you’ve accomplished Ms. Fly. We can’t wait.

  72. Randy says

    Seeing how many of you wonder why “X” country is on the list when they are mostly Catholic…..well duh, Catholics aren’t real christians! I was channel surfing and stopped long enough on a fundie show to learn that the various South American countries need to be saved from the Pope. Thats right, battle of the missionaries. Next on Fox!

  73. the great and powerful oz says

    pzph:

    For every Bible you trash or burn, more will find their way into the hands of people in other countries. Face it – you cannot keep up. You will not deprive someone somewhere else of a Bible as you are undoubtedly hoping. You will only cause more people to receive more Bibles than if you had never ordered on in the first place.

    Maybe, but those bibles still cost money to print, and the ones received here will be put to better use.

  74. BMcP says

    You are all godless heathens…

    I have been called worse… *shrugs*

    Getting a Bible for free is quite easy, any churches will hand you one if you are interested, or they visit your home. I had to turn down evangelists coming to my home handing them out, I have six or so already from all the previous visits. O.o

  75. says

    Timothy Wood:

    I feel more sorry than contemptuous for Mormon missionaries. The thing to do, if you’re so inclined to invite them in at all, is to offer them a beverage and give them a little time to get off their feet, as long as they don’t talk religion.

    Whether you actually keep the BoM is up to you; I can say that I have a copy myself and I have to agree with Mark Twain about it being chloroform in print. I keep it on a shelf next to two Bible, two Qurans, and a copy of Science and Health. (Also some fun stuff by Karen Armstrong, Burton Mack, and others.)

  76. Pikemann Urge says

    LOL at #68! Oh, lordy! BTW I do think the Bible’s worth reading. You can’t criticize (or enjoy, even!) something you don’t know.

  77. Sauceress says

    #86 Mike W

    there’s something about bible pages, that are just so much softer than regular toilet paper.

    The very reason my father always suggested having one close at hand when traveling long distances…..he was educated by Catlicker nuns!

  78. says

    I just ordered one for my daughter, after all she does want to become a youth minister, and I think turn around is fair play as she got me a Bible last year for my Birthday, seems she wants to convert her old heathen Dad :-)

    and to #103, dont keep taking those bibles from the table, it only encourages them to ad more, some good strong epoxy resin or a nail gun would be better used to prevent the weak from succumbing :-)

  79. weol says

    Good work PZ. Looks like you’ve been busted though:

    Hi. Thanks for visiting our site. It looks like you are visiting us from a link in a blog that recommends that you order your free Bible to ‘keep it out of the hands of poor innocent people.’

    Nothing to stop latecomers from cutting and pasting the URL into a new session though…

  80. tsg says

    I feel more sorry than contemptuous for Mormon missionaries.

    I don’t. It’s their choice.

    The thing to do, if you’re so inclined to invite them in at all, is to offer them a beverage and give them a little time to get off their feet, as long as they don’t talk religion.

    As long as it keeps them away from my house, go for it.

  81. Chiaroscuro says

    Colombia? We can export bibles and make more money that with coffee. Obviously this nuts doesn’t even know the basic facts of the countries they try to evangelize.

  82. Ben says

    @weol:

    you don’t even have to copy/paste into a new session, just click in the address bar and hit enter, it’ll reload the page as if you had typed it in manually and won’t give a referral URL to their site, and it loads right up.

  83. Luger Otter Robinson says

    That’s the trouble, Andrew G (comment #78), when you just take a drop down menu and just use it unchanged on a web form. I am always amused when I read the title description list on the Australian Tax Office’s etax. You can pick “Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, or even Dr or Prof.” if you want, but if you have any style you can also pick “His or Her Royal Highness.” I have sent off for my free bible, I have a soft spot for it out in the back garden. I just hope it’s biodegradable.

  84. Patricia says

    Why the sniveling, cowardly bastards! They don’t even have the courage to trust that their gawd will punish us.
    I’m thoroughly disgusted with the whole lot of the worms. Where’s the threats of hell fire & fatwa envy? *snort*
    At least with Big Bad Bill we get bluster and a blowhard the size of Godzilla.

  85. says

    There are a ton of multiplayer games out here that are way more fun than hanging out [here]

    Sometimes, it’s fun to pwn n00bs on the gaming battlefield.
    Sometimes, it’s fun to pwn n00bs on the intellectual battlefield.

    One of these activities has a purpose and can increase the skill level of the player in a pragmatic sense. The other one is just picking on creationists ;)