Yes, the sad little cracker has met its undignified end, so stop pestering me. The cracker, the koran, and another surprise entry have been violated and are gone. You’ll have to wait until tomorrow for the details, what little of them there are. I must quickly apologize to all you good Catholics who were hoping to attend Mass, since you can’t anymore — I have been told many hundreds of times now that cracker abuse violates your right to practice your religion. I guess you’ll have to adapt. Secular humanism is a good alternative, if you aren’t already flocking to join the Mormons.
Anyway, I’ve got important things to do today. It’s my oldest son’s birthday, and I told him that as a gift to me him, I’d take myself him to see The Dark Knight. I sure hope the world doesn’t end before the movie does.
#947: Martin, you dipshit, the highest rates of infection in Africa are in non-Catholic countries.
Explain that, Einstein.
Well, let’s see. They have Catholic churches in South Africa, Botswana, and Swaziland. And the Church in those countries has come out against condom use to prevent HIV despite the prevalence of infection. How exactly are you defining “non-Catholic countries” here? Or are you just shooting off your mouth without first making sure your brain is loaded, like most of your hysterical, idiot brethren who have been trolling like enraged psychotics here all night?
So Jack, is that an implied threat or is my imagination getting the better of me?
Does anyone else find it amusing that guys named “John Blowjob” and “Bubba Sixpack” are arguing about morality?
I laughed.
The idiocy from the Christians in this thread has left me utterly flabbergasted. I don’t even know who to begin shredding first. The sheer stupidity of their posts is giving me a migraine.
I will respond to one of the idiotic posts, since it is near the bottom of this mess. Here is a gem from Blowjob…..
_____________
John Blowjob:
“If I truly did not believe in God I would fail to see what was wrong with killing my enemies, or taking by force that which I desired.”
_____________
Ummm, yeah. Except when your religious leaders tell you that gawd fairy told them that you need to go kill *fill in the blank* because they are Heathens and gawd fairy promised their land to you.. “Kill every living thing, women, children, animals, the elderly, and every blade of grass.”
Sound familiar?
There are many instances throughout history when your religious leaders instructed people like you to go kill in the name of your gawd fairy…and your people obliged with great enthusiasm. (*cough* Crusades.)
If you truly believe that without the fear of burning for all eternity in hell you would be out murdering and raping babies, I say PLEASE, PLEASE stay a Christian.
My, but we have some unusually strong personalities online tonight! I consider myself a “run of the mill” type of atheist, and like many atheists I have a lot of theist friends. I don’t care what the theists believe as long as it doesn’t infringe on my rights and the rights of others (e.g., I don’t want ID taught in public schools or death threats sent to citizens over irrational beliefs).
I don’t know if it’s my imagination or maybe I never noticed before, but it seems like in recent years in the US a lot more theists are stepping on the rights of others, and for the most part it goes unchallenged. Since religion has been given a free pass for so long, any challenges can really upset people. Had people not overacted with threats of violence and death, this whole thing could have been a non-event.
MikiTracy squawked:
Er, then what’s all the fuss about? Why are so many papists (yourself included) coming to PZ’s site and trying to justify transubstantiation, threatening violence and legal action, lying about Hitler and Stalin’s motivations, quoting scripture, spouting fatwa-envy, promising prayer, concocting rape/necrophilia fantasies disguised as analogies, or begging PZ to return the crackers unharmed because it’s upset his/her grandmother?
That seems like a very strange reaction for something that, as you say, hasn’t managed to have any detrimental effect whatsoever?
But in a way you’re correct about the Pope – he’s not weighing in because he realises it’s below him. Oh, not PZ’s actions; it’s the tiny proportion of the more infantile members of his idiot flock overreacting to the truly trivial that he’s choosing to ignore. If the people at Webster Cook’s church had done what your pope is doing then none of us would be writing about this today.
And as for not inspiring any christians to give up their faith, well, you might want to find some ex-christians and ask them what prompted them to deconvert. Many describe the effect ridicule and mockery had on their eventual decision to free themselves.
Though I’m pretty sure what your response will be – that they weren’t True Christians™, right?
‘…they say they are “unchristian” and then cry about it.”
Nobody’s crying here, Jack. We’re a little overwhelmed by your level of stupidity, but no tears.
What’s this “you on campus?” shit, sonny boy?
You’re not imagining anything, Sam. Many have noticed the same pattern, and are refusing to sit in the back of the bus any longer.
Rayven, I think that is one of the only arguments I can make in favor of Christianity. The fear of burning for eternity probably does keep a few folks on the straight and narrow.
Are you a lab rat, Martin?
“Well, let’s see. They have Catholic churches in South Africa, Botswana, and Swaziland.”
Well, let’s see. There are atheists in this country that help to devalue sexual morality and encourage multiple partners and, therefore, the spread of AIDS.
PS – ever hear of the British Empire? South Africa et al are NOT Catholic countries even if there are some Catholic populations.
PPS – know why condoms do not work in many African countries? Because males refuse to wear them even if provided.
Atheists are idiots! Get out of the lab, rats.
Re #1000: Yay! I win! :o)
Nah, just another case of Catholic fatwa envy.
Shit, I hope my brains don’t turn to mush when I get old. Once I start believing irrational bullshit, I hope someone puts me down like a horse with a broken leg.
SDG #759 wrote:
I understand that Bill O’D doesn’t speak for all Catholics; the Catholics who overreacted to the original complaint re Cook are not representative of all Catholics, nor, of course, are those who wrote the threatening letters — but I think your point that all Catholics have nevertheless been “targeted” is an overreaction itself.
PZ didn’t go into a church; he has not been advocating or endorsing wholesale invasions. No property is being vandalized. I’ll agree with you that that would be wrong — an invasion of privacy, if nothing else. But as far as I can tell nobody is advocating that.
The “physical attack” isn’t against people, or a church — when you get right down to it, it’s a symbolic ‘physical attack’ against a symbol which stands for many things. And because of the way events have been playing out one of the things the eucharist has come to stand for is a public demand that the “sacred” be accorded automatic respect. I think that basic premise — that idea — is one that needs to be challenged — whether the “sacred” is in politics, science, philosophy, or religion.
There are moral rights and wrongs on both sides here. Some of them are smaller than others. And some of them are more important.
I don’t see PZ’s actions as hatred or bigotry towards Catholics as individuals. It’s a protest against Faith beliefs being taken too seriously. Faith exempts itself from common ground, and respect for the common ground we all share is important. What Cook did may have been wrong from a strictly contractual, secular point of view (though it seems a pretty small wrong taken in context) — but that wasn’t what upset people. In this case, they wanted their special religious sensibilities validated beyond reason.
When the Muslims were rioting because a newspaper had dared to print drawings of their holy figure and break a sacred taboo, I think that respect and tolerance were not on the side of those who wanted to encourage them to feel outraged. It was on the side of those who felt that the Muslims would have done much better — as people, as individuals — to learn to shrug it off, and respect and tolerate genuine diversity, dissent, and criticism. They needed to be de-sensitized to what is offensive, not encouraged to turn it into a struggle of good against evil.
I know and respect a lot of Catholics. And I really do think that working themselves up into feelings of outrage, horror, sensitivity, and violation over what happens to what is commonly demonstrable as only a cracker — does them no good. Because they are no different than we are. Not better, not worse. And not incapable of recognizing that the palming of a cracker which has been given to someone to eat isn’t a physical attack.
A sense of proportion and reason is not necessarily always promoted by moderation.
@955:
IIRC, they have done some studies of Lourdes. The spontaneous recovery rate (aka “miracle”) is approximately 1/75,000.
Praise the Lord!
Except everywhere else it’s 1/50,000…
Michelle Malkin + Dick Tracy = Miki Tracy
Fr. J. wrote:
“Emmet, I worked with the MC’s for a year. At a hospice for homeless dying AID’s patients. They did work that no one else would do with people who had been abandoned by everyone. In my time there I saw no homosexuals come in to change diapers. They shunned these men”
OK, gloves off. You fucking bastard. How DARE you? It was us gay men and lesbians who worked our tails off to get help for the poor people dying of AIDS. We campaigned for research and money for drugs while your EVIL church castigated us for an “immoral lifestyle.” All the desperate, hard, sad work the gay and lesbian community did to help the sick while your church spit on us – and you have the gall to say “homosexuals” shunned men dying of AIDS.
I rarely burst out into such profanity, but again – Fuck you. Fuck your hideous death cult church and its ACTIVE EFFORTS to condemn millions of people to die from AIDS. And fuck you for telling such vicious lies. You make me wish your hell were real.
Enraged and disgusted. . .
No Dan, I’m talking about you men calling each other ‘pussy’ when you mean coward, limp dick, dick less, ball-less; etc.
Please upgrade your vocabulary.
As a sister, wife, daughter and auntie, I find this offensive. Please stop.
Thanks :)
Oh, I get it now,
PZ is the Milkman and Mark Martin @ #935 is the Walrus.
Koo Koo Ka Chu.
Oh Yeah, Mark Martin- Tell me this, if Christ is King, what does that make Dale Ernhart? A cracker? And why haven’t you won a major race since 1982?
MikiTracy squawked:
The Holy Father has no need to intervene in a fiasco created by some nimrod who hasn’t managed to have any detrimental effect on the beliefs of the faithful whatsoever.
Micki, you don’t even know your own bible, bitch. Nimrod was a mighty hunter from the Old Testament. It was the biblically illiterate who misinterpreted Bugs Bunny when he commented,”Oh, what a Nimrod” about Elmer Fudd, who, you see, WASN’T a mighty hunter.
The word you may be looking for is “nerd” or even “doofus”. The word I’m looking for is “cunt”.
Hey Jack, are you done with the physical intimidation stuff?
BTW: since nobody else has answered it, what happens to Christ’s blood when it is spilled on the floor during communion? Why isn’t anyone upset by that?
@Jack:
If atheists are the ones pushing multiple partners, how come the only woman I’ve had cheat on me was devoutly religious going to church twice weekly?
Never had an atheist partner cheat. Fancy that.
Jack wrote: ever hear of the British Empire?
Er, Jack? It’s 2008. Hmm, I guess the passing of time is an atheist invention too, huh? I guess tonight you’re going to party like it’s 1799?
Emmet Caulfield wrote post 1000…he wins the prize!!!!
It’s a cracker.
“If Christians are “meek,” atheists attack them as brainwashed, weak etc.; if they stand up for themselves against the fucks on this board, then they say they are “unchristian” and then cry about it.”
That doesn’t change the brainwashed aspect of the commentary.
Nobody’s crying because you’re being a hypocrite. If they are it’s tears of laughter.
Your thinly veiled threat does sound enticing though. I’ve never had anyone try to beat whatever sick version of ‘gods love’ you might be defending into me before. Does that work or just help you sleep at night?
#1012: Jack, you’re just desperately making bullshit up now, aren’t you?
I provided a link to back up my points that the Church is actively preaching against condom use in those countries. Where’s your link to back up your cartoonish claim that atheists are spreading AIDS by “devaluing” sexual morality? Oh yeah, there isn’t one, because hate-crazed delusional fucktards like you can’t come up with anything other than lies. Which should be obvious, as your whole lives revolve around some real whoppers. Goodnight, Irene.
Since it is just a cracker, book, and whatever the fuck it is, why pay any attention to it at all? There are certainly more interesting things to consider.
Unless you really like the thousands of responses and nothing draws a crowd like a cracker.
Oh, for all that is valuable to human life in every single passing picosecond of consciousness,
I cannot wait for the shitstorm that hopefully unfolds tomorrow!
PZ 4 teh win!
God is teh d34d.
So how long is it before we get chastised for running on to long on this thread? I’m betting that PZ closes us down before we reach 1150.
Also, for all you hot shot atheists cultists:
Where is the video of your devilish idol, PZ, desecrating of icons from the Catholic and Muslim faiths?…
PZ is a pussy and just an attention whore, no doubt about it but I am sure that the chancellor and state legislature would be interested if there was one (which I doubt).
PZ is a pussy and the rest of you are totalitarian, bigoted assholes.
Rob, #1022, wrote:
That should have been a giveaway, Rob – it’s all about the guilt with these weirdos. She didn’t also steal your money to purchase indulgences did she?
Sam #1007, *nods*
Thus spake Jack the fucktard:
Man, can you really be that stupid and bigoted? Look at comparative statistics along religious lines for prison inmates (e.g. US prison census), incidence of HIV/AIDS, and marriage breakdown. Then come back and tell us how atheists/agnostics/non-religious come out compared to Catholics. Then check out about correlations between IQ, education, and religiosity. Then come back and say “Atheists are idiots!” or accuse us of being morally inferior en masse like that.
I know what the stats say, because I’ve looked at them, and I still wouldn’t say “Catholics are idiots!” or any such thing. You on the other hand, individually and personally, are a fucktard. That’s not a reflection on other Catholics, btw, many of whom are not fucktards, but you are.
rmp: Should we start taking odds on when the comments will be shut down?
“PZ is a pussy and the rest of you are totalitarian, bigoted assholes. ”
Who’s crying now, bitch?
I’ve read this entire thread, and now I’m on the verge of death from dehydration and starvation…
I could use some water, actually, could you make that wine?
And a little something to nosh, maybe a cracker?
Kel @ #963
I gotta call bullshit on you. Einstein was not an athiest.
He did feel, however, that religion and the bible are childish superstition. He did not believe in God’s judgement, nor the divinity of Christ, nor a personal god, nor an afterlife.
#1030: What’s with the pussy fixation, Jack old boy? Not getting enough of it, obviously. Your excessive, adolescent anger does seem to point to some pretty strong pent-up frustrations and rage.
(Okay, that’s all the troll-feeding for me. It’s been fun, kids.)
Faith is a gift.< .i>
Here, worth a thousand words–a picture.
It’s stunningly amazing to me that someone who considers himself to be so intellectually superior can be so easily whomped on the side of the head by simple sarcasm.
Posted by: Miki Tracy | July 23, 2008 10:58 P
The only thing I stepped into was the shower.
Your response confirms that my initial sarcastic reply to another post whizzed right past you. That doesn’t surprise me. But I am impressed with your brain stem reptilian reflex attacks. Jesus must be proud of you.
My God, I believe, I adore, I trust and I love Thee! I beg pardon for all those that do not believe, do not adore, do not trust and do not love Thee.
O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners.
@Rob, you’ll get over it buddy.
@Wowbagger, it was a reference to the Protestant/secular nature of the former British colonies.
Good try, kiddo.
And Einstein wasn’t an atheist either.
Sorry for the typo.
“There are atheists in this country that help to devalue sexual morality and encourage multiple partners”
I wonder why the majority of girls in porn are Catholic?
The fear of burning for eternity probably does keep a few folks on the straight and narrow.
Oh, bullshit.
If christians really believed all that shit about hell, they’d never do anything wrong, ever.* I mean, if I believed in a supreme all-seeing being who was standing by with a torture chamber just for me, I’d never do anything wrong: I’d be out there stoning gays (sorry MAJeff, nothing personal) and not suffering wiccans and new age shitheads to live, and I’d totally refuse to move off the couch on sundays, etc, etc. If I actually believed all that shit, I gotta say – well – they’d throw me in jail for being a truly bad-ass terroristic motherfucker. Count your dumb selves as lucky that I don’t believe in your dumbass god because if you stepped out of line, I’d be sinless enough that the first stone I threw would really sting.
Noooooo… The fact that christians commit crimes and sins at pretty much the same rate as everyone else, tells me that they don’t believe it one bit. More to the point, the fact that christianity has evolved (yes: “evolved”) away from its own rules (divorce? suffering witches to live?) When christians realized that they had come up with a bunch of rules that basically say “life sucks if you believe!” (what, no blowjobs or masturbation!?) then they evolved a new bunch of bullshit where they created another imaginary playmate – the devil – because they were too chickenshit to just face up to the fact that deep down inside they know it’s bullshit, too, and that’s why they don’t follow god’s will. Nice excuse. But it’s really transparent, don’t you think?
(*said in the same tone as “..why are there still monkeys?”)
Shit. A lousy 2¢ wholewheat zombie death cult cracker? Can’t I just have the 2¢ instead? True, it won’t contribute much to my next bar tab, but send me a cracker and it’ll just wind up in the compost bin with the other stale bread (we presort trash here).
Wow I can’t believe this is such a deal. When I was a kid I used to pocket the host from time to time. I had a small collection of them in my drawer. They must have been thrown out when we moved.
Paolo:
Blow it out your ass. It’s just as effective.
PZ is a pussy and the rest of you are totalitarian, bigoted assholes.
Posted by: Jack | July 24, 2008 12:12 AM
Another Christian spreading the love of Christ to any and all who will listen.
More fun than the zoo!
More fun than bubble wrap!
More fun than Xbox live!
…It’s TROLL FEEDING!
Just to throw some fuel on the fire that nobody will ever read by now…I’ve never understood where the carbon atoms came from when Jeebus turned water into wine. Did he lyse the trillions of trillions of microbes in the water and simply use their organic matter to synthesize Ethanol and other constituents of wine?
Jack, any chance you’re related to tjswift? You certainly sound a lot like him/her?
Jack,
Which has exactly how much relevance to this situation? The USA was a British colony; are you secular/protestant?
I was at work today when someone uttered the phrase:
“Christ on a cracker!”
…and I was not about to explain why I literally had to sit down because I was laughing so hard.
I really find the Catholics and other religionists comments hilarious. It’s as if they have some sort of defect in their brains that blinds them to the very words they pour forth into cyberspace. They can’t even grasp the simplest concepts of rights, bigotry, prejudice, hate, their own government’s laws, their holy book… or just how hypocritical they’re being.
How can anyone be that oblivious?
EV, you are an idiot.
The only thing this “science blog” is good for is seeing the true, aggressive nature of militant atheism/materialism exposed.
Adios, screech monkeys – I began imitating your vile nature so it is time to go.
No, as far as any reasonable observer can tell, he was strictly a Spinozan pantheist. Still pantheism is a helluva lot closer to atheism than to the fedeist anthropomorphic polytheism of Catholicism though.
Jack’s #1030 fly speck: “PZ is a pussy and just an attention whore”. No Jack. PZ hasn’t posted here. He’s watching Dark Knight, so he’s not around for any attention. You and your friends are just buzzing around a pile of cracker turds like flies and a being swatted. Like a chicken running around with it’s head chopped off, you don’t realize the situation.
Jack @1053,
I think you meant initiate as opposed to imitate. You did spell imitate correctly, so that is why it make it through your spell checker.
Too bad you don’t have an edit button, then you could fix your post.
Blow me, Jack.
_______________________
Rayven, I think that is one of the only arguments I can make in favor of Christianity. The fear of burning for eternity probably does keep a few folks on the straight and narrow.
Posted by: rmp | July 23, 2008 11:59 PM
__________________
This is true. I have met many Christians whom I prefer live in fear of eternal punishment. I have met a number of Christians who admitted what they would do if not for the fear of hell. (this happened both while I was Christian and after I became an Atheist). They scared the shit outa me.
What scares me even more is that the belief structure teaches them that they can be forgiven for anything they do. (Free get out of hell cards.) It encourages evil behavior. That’s why so many Christians do despicable things. If there were no forgiveness, perhaps some of them would be too afraid to commit atrocities. (like threatening to kill people over a cracker)
A couple of the people of whom I speak of in the first paragraph told me they feared accidentally dieing before asking for forgiveness, so that’s why they didn’t do whatever it was they secretly wanted to do. (one man admitted he wanted to rape women…I suspect me meant me and was trying to rattle me.) Kind of scary.
Oh, BTW, worshiping a cracker is idolatry. Has anyone brought that up yet? Many things in catholicism are Idolatrous. Ask how they justify the practice and sit back and watch them dance.
“ADOREMUS IN AETERNUM SANCTISSIMUM SACRAMENTUM!
YOU WILL SEE HELL WHOEN YOU GO THERE ”
Retard.
Paolo writes:
I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood
I saw Dr Strangelove, too. That was a great movie.
Funny how Jack doesn’t answer any questions?
@1012 Jack
“Well, let’s see. There are atheists in this country that help to devalue sexual morality and encourage multiple partners and, therefore, the spread of AIDS.”
Oh, come on now, read your stupid bible.
In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon’s son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.
and blah blah blah
Why do atheists have to take the rap for multiple partners and so called sexual immorality?
Well, I tend to not use that word as I prefer much more colorful and, frankly, funnier and more accurate terms. But, I’ll try not to use that word. I can’t promise anything, but I’ll do my best.
Are the atheists that post on this sight representative of atheists in general?
#1061: Funny how Jack doesn’t answer any questions?
A. He’d have to have answers. B. I think his mom came in and told him to shut off the computer and go to bed already. Apparently he has summer school in the morning.
“Are the atheists that post on this sight representative of atheists in general?”
As an individual, I am representative of myself. I’m sorry if this makes it harder for any theists to see the world in black and white.
PS – you views on the host are INCONSEQUENTIAL.
Understand?
No one cares what you believe – feel free to write about your disbelief, draw it, scream it on the street.
This is about unethical participation in religious ceremony for the purpose of taking and public desecrating an icon that is sacred to Catholics.
Even if you do not make a disruption, it is an attack on freedom of worship due to the fact that Catholic masses will be restricted as this is a major violation of the ceremony.
If he did the same to a mosque or synagogue he would already be fired.
Are you all this obtuse and socially autistic?
Really???
elastico @ 1064:
Are the atheists that post on this sight representative of atheists in general?
I don’t know. But we can, in general, proofread our posts.
Is your dog Catholic?
Rayven, the other thing that always strikes me is the ability to rationalize going completely nuts. Rifle on top of the water tower type of nuts. You can always tell yourself that while you’re losing it and need God’s help (which is probably true), the innocent people you kill are actually lucky because they are going to heaven and don’t have to live on this earth.
I rest my case.
Good night sweethearts! :)
#1064: You mean, not afraid to challenge the lies and stand up to the hysterical ravings of religious fanatics who are on an out-of-control rampage of heavy trolling, petulant name-calling, and threats of violence, because somebody made a joke about a cracker, in response to their initial threatening of a young man who walked out of a church with one? More or less, yeah.
“EV, you are an idiot.”
(blushes) A COMPLIMENT! { i.e. GOT HIM}!
Oh NO! Jackie wan away ‘cuz da big mean ol’ atheist hurt him widdle feewings. Aw, don’t cwy, Jackie! Just go nightnight!
My, that was fun. Maybe I’ll have a kitten or two for a late night snack.
Poor deluded assholes.
All the papists have run away – maybe someone posted a YouTube video of a turd that looks like the Virgin Mary and they’re all too busy worshipping it.
Are the atheists that post on this sight representative of atheists in general?
Posted by: Elastico | July 24, 2008 12:34 AM
Are the religiously impaired who come to this blog looking to condemn the godless heathens representative of the religiously impaired in general?
Why do atheists have to take the rap for multiple partners and so called sexual immorality?
No, no, Justin. See, it’s always the atheists’ fault. It’s a rule. See how we made him get all nasty ‘n stuff? He was just ‘imitating’ our ‘vile nature’, remember? He’s a good person. He’d never do stuff like this if it weren’t for us. Same rule applies to all that promiscuity what’s killing people. Atheists are makin’ ’em do it. They’d be good Catholics, otherwise.
We’d better hope he doesn’t do anything really stupid after all this, outta frustration. Like, say, utter somewhat less veiled threats, somewhere he’s identifiable. ‘Cos, see, that’d be our fault, too, obviously. And I wouldn’t want that on my conscience.
That’s how it works. The other guy made him do it. Why, any four year old can explain it. And catch a four-year old beating on a three-year old, and that’s exactly what they’ll say. He made me do it. That scoundrel.
In the usual context of accusing someone of being weak or lacking in courage, “pussy” is a contraction/corruption of pusillanimous, not a reference to popular slang for female genitalia. The etymologies of the two uses of “pussy” are entirely separate.
Elastico, if you can find anything I’ve said on this thread to be out of line (even to the devout), please point it out to me.
Jack, ….. will you answer any of my questions?
Hypothetical Question:
Who truly desecrates the Holy Eucharist?
The atheist who does not believe and simply destroys what he believes to be nothing more than a cracker.
OR
The Catholic who says they believe but lives a morally corrupt life and still receives what they believe to be the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?
To the atheist, neither will matter. But if there is a God, rest assured, it is the Catholic who will be judged harsher than the atheist for the Catholic acts in hypocrisy.
And in this day and age, there are millions of Catholics who desecrate the Eucharist every Sunday – far worse than anything Professor Myers has done. For what Professor Myers has done was seek the truth in what he knows, while many Catholics live in defiance despite their supposed fidelity.
Fr J wrote this incredibly stupid strawman argument;
“millions of corpses have burned for atheism.”
THIS IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE! Millions have died for STALINISM, true, many have died for MAOISM, true. It is true there are some crazy people who would try to kill people “for” atheism, but, unlike Christianity (which let’s face it, has to be one of the most homicidal / genocidal religions the world has ever seen), there is no direct path for a sane person from atheism (not believing in God) to genocide.
Claiming that Stalin or Mao killed people because they wanted to make the world a more logical place is false. The reason they killed religious people was in order to consolidate their power, to remove a competing power structure – the church. Nowadays, here, we’re trying to get rid of the church, but like Stalin, they don’t want to lose their hard-won power, and they’ll do anything to maintain it.
Hey PZ, if you’ve got any extra supernatural wafers, can you send them to me here in TX? I wanna fed them to my chickens and see what happens…
AJ,
I am not talking about all atheists – just the “screech monkeys” on this blog.
Here is a good example by wowbagger:
“All the papists have run away – maybe someone posted a YouTube video of a turd that looks like the Virgin Mary and they’re all too busy worshipping it.”
rmp, you answer my last post and I will answer your questions.
“Are you all this obtuse and socially autistic?”
I’m too obtuse to understand why Catholics act like sheep every Saturday and follow the moronic dictates of a bunch of people who pretend to be authorities on spiritual matters.
I have an idea – think for yourself for a change!
PZ is willing to desecrate a cracker.
Catholics are willing to sheepishly kowtow to power-hungry people in pointy hats who pretend to speak for a semi-deranged dead person.
Which form of behavior is worse?
Thought you were going away, Jack.
And why is Wowbagger’s statement so offensive? Catholics worship a cracker. It may smell better than a turd, but as far as being sacred or supernaturally special go, well, they’re on equal footing.
Unless you’ve got some awesome scientific proof to the contrary.
“Are the atheists that post on this sight representative of atheists in general?”
There’s really no such thing as a “general” atheist. We may discuss things, mindlessly banter and crack wits among one another but don’t think for a second we might not tear one another to pieces.
I do think OctoberMermaid’s response at # 1066 about sums it up.
The only sense of community there might be (or seem to be) is artificial.
Louis hyperventilates:
“Nowadays, here, we’re trying to get rid of the church, but like Stalin, they don’t want to lose their hard-won power, and they’ll do anything to maintain it.”
What power? Like control of the media? Government?
Have you been reading Dan Brown before bedtime, Louie?
PS – how ironic that you mention Stalin, an avowed atheist, who actually DID try to wipe out the churches in Russia for power.
Screeeechhh monkey.
Paolo:
You recognize that it is impossible to desecrate something that one does not believe is sacred. We’ve been trying to make this point over the past 13,000 posts. Now will you make a cogent, reasoned argument why the cracker becomes God? Over those same posts maybe two or three Catholics have tried, weakly.
Jack,
I stand by my slur. Why don’t you go back and worship your magic turd some more?
Jack @ 1067..
So much stupid in one tiny post….Where to begin?
I think this would be it: “Teh shtoopiddd, it brrnnzzzzz….
The statement that PZ’s actions are an attack on religious freedom is so twisted, I have no honest idea how to begin deconstructing it beyond the above statement.
Jack, do you eat beef? If so, why don’t you feel that a sacred Hindu item is not worth the same level of protection as a cracker?
elastico @ 1064:
Nothing is representative of atheists in general. There is no such thing as “atheists in general”, just as there is no such thing as “non-astrologers in general” or “a-leprechaunists in general”. Atheism is not a club or an organisation. Being an atheist just means you don’t believe in gods; that is all it means: it does not involve signing up to any other beliefs or principles.
Either that or there’s a statue prancing around some obscure Irish village.
“Are you all this obtuse and socially autistic?”
Jack is the “socially autistic” as an epithet guy which is_______? (damn, I forgot his other tag)
I’m laughing even harder now. You, sir , get the prize for being THE MOST WILLFULLY IGNORANT TROLL ON A PHARYNGULA THREAD! I’m sure reprent Catholicism at it’s finest.
George,
Could you be any more simplistic and hysterical?
Please try harder in your next post.
Jack. If this is the last post you are referring to, “Are you all this obtuse and socially autistic?” I can only answer for myself. I do not believe that I am socially autistic. Perhaps you can point out how I am wrong.
“Could you be any more simplistic and hysterical?”
We can’t all be as… special as you, Jack.
Why must atheists always correct theists who have incorrect historical knowledge about Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin?
Here, I’m going to let these horrible men speak for themselves and link you to some things:
Adolf Hitler:
“I say: my Christian feeling tells me that my lord and savior is a warrior. It calls my attention to the man who, lonely and surrounded by only a few supporters, recognized what they [the Jews] were, and called for a battle against them, and who, by God, was not the greatest sufferer, but the greatest warrior. . .
“As a human being it is my duty to see to it that humanity will not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did that old civilization two thousand years ago, a civilization which was driven to its ruin by the Jews. . . I am convinced that I am really a devil and not a Christian if I do not feel compassion and do not wage war, as Christ did two thousand years ago, against those who are steeling and exploiting these poverty-stricken people.
“Two thousand years ago a man was similarly denounced by this particular race which today denounces and blasphememes all over the place. . . That man was dragged before a court and they said: he is arousing the people! So he, too, was an agitator!”
(Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on April 12, 1922; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, pp. 261-262.)
“For this, to be sure, from the child’s primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every movie house, every advertising pillar and every billboard, must be pressed into the service of this one great mission, until the timorous prayer of our present parlor patriots: ‘Lord, make us free!’ is transformed in the brain of the smallest boy into the burning plea: ‘Almighty God, bless our arms when the time comes; be just as thou hast always been; judge now whether we be deserving of freedom; Lord, bless our battle!'”
(Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, pp. 632-633.)
“I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence.”
(Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1989, p. 208.)
[For more, go here: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html%5D
Verdict: Christian.
———————————————————
Josef Stalin:
“You know, they are fooling us, there is no God… all this talk about God is sheer nonsense.” – Josef Stalin, from E. Yaroslavsky’s Landmarks in the Life of Stalin.
“World dictatorship can be established only when the victory of socialism has been achieved in certain countries or groups of countries … [and] when these federation of republics have finally grown into a world union of Soviet Socialist Republics uniting the whole of mankind under the hegemony of the international proletariat organized as a state.” – Josef Stalin
“[After Communism succeeds] …then, there will come a peace across the earth.” – Josef Stalin
Etc, etc. There are a few historical books published and widely available out there covering how much Stalin loved his military and his communism:
1) Stalin in Power: The Revolution from Above, 1928-1941
[http://www.amazon.com/Stalin-Power-Revolution-Above-1928-1941/dp/0393308693/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216874774&sr=1-3]
2) Stalin: The Man and His Era
[http://www.amazon.com/Stalin-Man-Adam-B-Ulam/dp/080707005X/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216874874&sr=1-5]
Verdict: Russianism and Communism were Stalin’s religion. He happened to be atheistic (which, as theists should learn, only addresses the existence or non-existence of God, not necessarily morality), but he based most of what he did in the Soviet Union around the principles of what he believed it meant to be Russian, around communist political ideology and around his intense desire to minimize domestic opposition through military might, imprisonment and starvation. His atheism did not determine his politics. His answer for everything was his own vision of communism, and because it played such an extensive role in his worldview, saying it was his religion is not a stretch of the imagination at all.
Now, will you Christians do some research and kindly shut the fuck up about atheism and its falsely supposed link to Hitler and its falsely supposed love of communism/killing people? (We all know that won’t happen though, since the vast majority of theists barely even know the horrors of their own holy book.)
AgnoAtheist:
Even if it isn’t desecration per se, anyone can recognize when something has value to another human being. It is out of respect and common human decency that we do not violate what other people hold precious and dear – no matter how silly it seems to us.
As a Catholic, I may not believe in the Qu’ran or the sacred stone, the Kabbah. Nor would I believe in the sacredness of the cow to the Hindus in India. But out of common human decency, I would not go out of my way to hurt other people by destroying before their eyes what they hold precious and dear.
Oops,pardon me.
I’m sure you represent Catholicism at it’s finest.
I am not talking about all atheists – just the “screech monkeys” on this blog.
Oh. Good. So it’s just the screech monkeys that make y’all nasty ‘n stuff? That’s good…
Of course, There’s a remedy for that, of course. Door. Over there. Feel free. Hell, I encourage you. Seems the safest thing. I wouldn’t want to make you do or say anything silly. Terrible, how we make you do that. All our fault, again, clearly, of course. How dreadful of us that you do those things. You must flee us. No. I insist. I mustn’t have any more of your wrongdoings on my conscience. It’s all too much.
Funny, tho’. Seems a bit selective of you to now stick to this claim of yours this powerful influence atheism exerts is just about this particular company. Seeing as (and as I pointed out) you also just blamed a few lethal epidemics on atheists in general. Or is the theory the atheists on this blog specifically were hanging ’round Africa, suggesting people sleep together more often? And preferably without condoms?
(Checks daytimer…)
Anyway, nope. That wasn’t me. I was busy recording backwards Satanic messages into rock ‘n roll CDs all that decade. Guys? Wowbagger and all? Was that you? I can never keep track… Were you on Africa duty in the nineties? Or were you encouraging good American Christians to use crack? I don’t have all the timesheets handy…
Or… Wait… Did we just make this guy lie, there, about that whole damned thing?
Oh, boy. We’re bad. Look at what we did. I feel dreadful. His endless sins, we may never wash them off ourselves. We made him do it again!
George,
Could you be any more simplistic and hysterical?
Please try harder in your next post.
I doubt he can be more simplistic and hysterical then you, but you’re right he could try.
Mr. Myers doesn’t have the gall to do any kind of desecration to the Koran. He knows Catholics will just spout off, but radical Muslims will hunt him down.
We’ll see what kind of principle Mr. Myers has by noting his like attention to the Koran.
“It is out of respect and common human decency that we do not violate what other people hold precious and dear – no matter how silly it seems to us.”
Slavery was once held dear by many people in the United States.
Kel,
“Jack, do you eat beef? If so, why don’t you feel that a sacred Hindu item is not worth the same level of protection as a cracker?”
Am I promoting the stealing sacred items from a Hindu temple and desecrating them on a video?
Nope, I am not a child who looks to insult other members of the community in their private houses of worship.
“As a Catholic, I may not believe in the Qu’ran or the sacred stone, the Kabbah. Nor would I believe in the sacredness of the cow to the Hindus in India. But out of common human decency, I would not go out of my way to hurt other people by destroying before their eyes what they hold precious and dear.”
It’s not “before your eyes.”
You came here to witness it and get upset about it. PZ didn’t bring you here and neither did any of us. Most likely, Bill Donahue did.
“Mr. Myers doesn’t have the gall to do any kind of desecration to the Koran. He knows Catholics will just spout off, but radical Muslims will hunt him down.
We’ll see what kind of principle Mr. Myers has by noting his like attention to the Koran.”
Yeah, Muslims are the only ones with radicals among their numbers.
And Catholics have come here to call PZ a bigot. Ha.
Miki Tracy wrote @ #730:
“Oh, and by the by, in response to some witless knucklehead’s earlier opin (I forget who): Why do you think the Source and Summit of all things has any need to “protect Himeself” from the likes of you? Talk about arrogance. GOD is not mocked–He lives on regardless, whilst you, you sad little terminal blob of protoplasm, will whither and die in spite of your best efforts, and your objections to Him will whither and die with you….and be forgotten by all. You rail against Something so much bigger than yourself that you don’t even realise the absurdity of it.”
I presume that the ‘knucklehead’ you are referring to is me.
If you could summon down fire from the sky in order to prove your god’s existence to us non-believers, then I’m confident that you would, as would most other members of you deluded cult. You don’t, because you can’t, and you know that you can’t. If you could, then you would. So until you can, then as far as I’m concerned, you can go sit on a pineapple and rotate until you can. If our Australian Customs Department would allow it, I’d even consider sending you the pineapple myself.
Or perhaps you need to;
“Yell louder! After all, he is a god; he may be deep in thought, or perhaps he stepped out for a moment or has taken a trip. Perhaps he is sleeping and needs to be awakened.” – 1 Kings 18:27 : D
I appreciate that you’re passionate about your religion, but to most of us you come across as being nothing more than a superstitious loon, along with just about every other religious enthusiast who has been posting on these threads. One of your mates Paul, even suggested in post #732 that Professor Myers place and prominently display a picture of ‘The Divine Mercy of Christ’ (whatever the hell that is) in his house, while wearing a magic necklace containing the ‘Miraculous Medal of Our Lady’ (whatever the hell that is), and if PZ doesn’t magically transform into a Roman Catholic within 12 months, then he will pay him $777.
It’s a sure bet! If I were PZ, I’d seriously consider taking him up on the offer. (apart from the inconvenience of having to wear a silly magic necklace for the next 12 months). On the other hand, it would provide a good talking point at parties.
It’s a good thing that Paul actually put his bet in writing, because as the author William S Burroughs wrote in his famous poem ‘Words of Advice for Young People’ – “If you’re doing business with a religious son of a bitch, get it in writing. His word isn’t worth shit. Not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
Jack, I lived up to my part of the bargain. And you, ….. not so much.
“Once given it is yours”
No, you had no right to the eucharist. Only baptized Christians, in communion with the Pope, and in a state of grace may receive the eucharist – this is not a secret. Everyone knows that only Catholics may receive the eucharist in a Catholic Church. You defiled the eucharist by receiving it. But if you read the biblical injunction, it doesn’t say that the end of the world will come b/c of it… (in fact, the eucharist has been defiled by atheists and satanists and even catholics and protestants through the ages…) but it says that you have damned yourself by your actions. So no, God is not laughing at you. He loves you. All of you. Even, and especially those who hate and mock him. Go read the passion if you don’t know this. So, repent… of your blasphemy, and your hatred … make peace with God, and then you will be free of the bitterness that so clearly motivates you to behave this way.
that wasn’t the question. The question was whether you think it’s okay to destroy a sacred symbol from another religion. If you eat beef, then your notion that religious sensitivity should come above all else is hypocritical.
Nobody in this sorry mess has destroyed anything in front of anybody. If you are a Hindu and you go to an slaughterhouse, you cannot complain that you are offended by seeing cows killed. If what PZ might do might bother or offend you, then piss off and watch TV. Nobody’s holding a gun to your head and making you stick around.
Webster Cook harmed nothing or nobody, not even a cracker. PZ is not, repeat not going to a Catholic church to piss in the tabernacle in front of the congregation, he is merely disposing of some worthless shit that was mailed to him to make a point about the silliness of persecuting a Catholic kid over mishandling a cracker.
Get over it.
Wait, so him getting one of these crackers somehow and doing something to it of which you have no knowledge is damaging to your religion? But you eating the meat from a cow which is sacred to Hindus of which they have no knowledge is not damaging to theirs? What you are saying is that everyone must respect your beliefs but you won’t bother respecting others.
OctoberMermaid:
The Internet is public domain – like a public broadcast. And like anything done in public, there are onlookers and bystanders who passed by this way.
I chose to stop. And rather than howl and yell, I hope that I make at least a positive contribution instead of anger.
If anything, I sincerely hope that many Catholics come away from this, looking at their own lives and recognizing their hypocrisy by remaining in their sins and yet insist receiving what they believe to be the Living God into their body and soul.
I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.
–Bertrand Russell
“No, you had no right to the eucharist. Only baptized Christians, in communion with the Pope, and in a state of grace may receive the eucharist – this is not a secret. Everyone knows that only Catholics may receive the eucharist in a Catholic Church. You defiled the eucharist by receiving it. But if you read the biblical injunction, it doesn’t say that the end of the world will come b/c of it… (in fact, the eucharist has been defiled by atheists and satanists and even catholics and protestants through the ages…) but it says that you have damned yourself by your actions. So no, God is not laughing at you. He loves you. All of you. Even, and especially those who hate and mock him. Go read the passion if you don’t know this. So, repent… of your blasphemy, and your hatred … make peace with God, and then you will be free of the bitterness that so clearly motivates you to behave this way. ”
How much salt should we throw over our shoulders? Just to make sure we completely square things off with God, you know.
I’d do a few Hail Marys, but I’m not good at sports.
Does it matter what type of wood I knock on, by the way? Will any do? I’m assuming Dogwood is right out.
I also walked under a ladder yesterday. How many times do I have to cross myself for Satan will flee?
October writes:
“You came here to witness it and get upset about it. PZ didn’t bring you here and neither did any of us.”
Wrong.
The internet is now the “public square” and calling for unethical participation in another’s private ceremonies in order to take icons for public desecration is an act of extremely aggressive provocation.
I love how the atheists, especially the attention whore, Myers, try to act like they are oh so innocently surprised.
Where is the video PZ, you pussy.
Trey, let me get this right. According to you “it says that you have damned yourself by your actions. So no, God is not laughing at you. He loves you.”
So I’m damned to an eternity in fire yet he loves me. Hmmmmm.. why does this seem so ‘un-christian’.
Paolo writes:
It is out of respect and common human decency that we do not violate what other people hold precious and dear – no matter how silly it seems to us.
I believe that all catholics should wear their underpants on their heads all day monday. I hold these beliefs to be precious and dear.
Can you send me pictures so I can post them, to show how sincerely you respect my precious dear beliefs? Kthxbai!
Ol’ Special Pleading Jack. His vocabulary is limited to “screeching monkeys” and socially autistic” and “obtuse”.
He’ll hold on to his irrational belief that a wafer is Jebus and that anyone, especially a professor of all things, who points out that it’s just a cracker will suffer his wrath! “Don’t you daredefile my bread products”, he rages!
“Screeeeeeechy, Screeeeeechy”, he croaks, as if we truly give a fuck. I know I don’t. Not anymore; not even after your masterful rhetoric and awesome use of persuasion, you silver tongued devil, you.
russ miller #1101,
Blah blah blah. More fatwa envy from the wholewheat zombie cannibal porn club.
Trey #1108,
Yeah, that’s all theo-wank that means nothing to people who don’t share your pathetic delusion. In practice, bazillions of people of varying levels of commitment to your demented fuckwittery get a cracker every week from their cross-dressing man in a pointy hat. Your holy crackers are de facto given out like peanuts in a bar.
“In the usual context of accusing someone of being weak or lacking in courage, “pussy” is a contraction/corruption of pusillanimous, not a reference to popular slang for female genitalia. The etymologies of the two uses of “pussy” are entirely separate.”
No way. No way! (“Way.”)
Man, I’m glad I skimmed this thread. For that reason alone. Learning something new is way better than watching the cracker-worshippers wet their pants. Any citations?
“Scary, after reading through most of the dribble above, kinda get the feeling what chatter will be like in hell. Even being on this diseased and evil science blog for this short time makes me feel afflicted, ailing, amort, bilious, chagrined, confined, crapulent, crapulous, debilitated, depressed, disgusted, down, feverish, frail, gross, ill, impaired, indisposed, infected, lousy, morbid, morbific, moribund, nauseated, pale, pining, queasy, sickly, stricken, suffering, unhealthy, unsound, unwell, unwholesome, upset, valetudinary, weak, weary, wretched and cold. ”
Oh look. Vitus The Asshat knows how to use Thesaurus.com!
JonathanL:
I think the comparison between our culture eating beef which the Hindus hold sacred and Professor Myer’s action against Catholics are two things all together.
It is by happenstance of culture that we slaughter animals that another religion considers sacred. So out of respect for their dignity, we do not slaughter the cows while we are visiting their native country, nor do we force them to eat beef while they are here. The same goes with Saudi Arabian dress codes, or the strict moral and behavioral codes of Singapore.
What Professor Myers has done is basically the opposite – he enters the homes of others and desecrates what they hold precious and dear. It would be like eating beef in India and challenging others to see that the cow is not sacred and to convert from their heathen ways.
The Internet is not a private place – it is the public square. And as I’ve said to OctoberMermaid, you will have onlookers and passersby.
If this was truly a private affair out of scientific curiousity, I would not have been able to post and make comments at all.
I’m beginning to realize that Jack’s definition of “socially autistic” are those who don’t share in his delusions or his tedious, unhinged and childish nature.
It’s funny that he would have the gall to call anyone a “screech monkey” when he’s pitching one hell of an endless and embarrassing tantrum while also spouting off the boilerplate bully threats in attempt to silence those who treat him as the stupid child he is.
I think the truly cute thing is that this little whelp thinks he’s actually spewing something new.
May Our lord Jesus Christ have mercy on your soul. This will not pass without repercussion from the Eternal Father!
Now it’s time for you and your peaple to bow to your Lord Jesus Christ and ask forgiveness.
The pride,greed,and arrogancy of your people have destroyed this once great nation.
“God can convert any stone into a son of Israel” St. John the Baptist.
By the way, I would like to change the phrase “sacred cow” to “sacred cracker”. Seems like it fits the definition better.
Pretty funny that all these christian bitches show up here for no other reason than to get some fucking attention.
Oooh, Jack you are so MACHO. Such a big man. So threatening. “Where is the video PZ, you pussy!!?”, he demands.
Beat your chest, bad boy and we’ll just keep on laughing.
I sincerely hope that many Catholics come away from this, looking at their own support for what is, in fact, an immoral international criminal mafia of child-rape enablers and facilitators, and recognise that “sin” is a fabrication of ignorant bronze-age savages, that there isn’t a shred of evidence for any god, living or dead, nor for any such thing as a soul.
Brother Jack:
Please step away from the computer and pray. You will find that you are not acting out of charity and the will of God to show love to your enemies, but you are acting out of your own pride.
It is not wrong to feel hurt when something we love so dearly is destroyed before our eyes. But that is where I ask you to imitate our Lord and Master in saying, “Forgive them for they know not what they do.”
For if we truly contemplate the horror of what has transpired, we would beg for mercy and not vengeance.
Pray brother. And peace be unto you.
“Wrong.
The internet is now the “public square” and calling for unethical participation in another’s private ceremonies in order to take icons for public desecration is an act of extremely aggressive provocation.”
The internet’s a big place and this is a guy’s blog, so it is kind of funny what a huge deal people like Bill Donahue have made out of it. Apparently one guy with a blog is pretty terrifying, causing bitter, frothing-at-the-mouth rage. And don’t say there was no anger here. It’s amusing to us, but it was the Catholics who actually thought they could get him fired and actually tried.
But I guess if the internet is just like you say it is, you’d better be really careful. There are lots of neat little things for you to get offended over. So if something like this bothered you… well, have fun with your aneurysm.
The problem with all your bleating about destroying holy relics is how you fail to realize that the eucharist is handed out specifically to be destroyed. Webster Cook’s “unpardonable transgression” was that he did not destroy it. So all your analogies about books and photographs and scrolls fail because the eucharist is not protected from being taken, it is given to anyone who kneels at the altar, it is not unique nor even rare, being produced by the billions daily, and you are not expected to preserve it but to destroy it by eating it. Regardless of what PZ does to a wafer, the reason for all this nonsense was that Mr. Cook was physically assaulted for not destroying your “holy relic”, so to now express your outrage and disgust because one will be destroyed is absurd in the extreme. That is why you are being mocked.
“Now it’s time for you and your peaple to bow to your Lord Jesus Christ and ask forgiveness.”
Go away, Jose. I’ll pass on the insults this time.
“Unethical participation?” What’s unethical about destroying a stupid wafer and a book of nonsense (The Koran)? Oh, and he didn’t “take” his wafer either, it was given to him as a gift. As for this act being “extremely aggressive provocation,” no, it’s simply publicly destroying two items, both of which now belong to him and mean absolutely nothing to him or us. The fact that you and others of your ilk are going to blow up over it is entirely the fault of your irrationality.
You seem so eager to view this act. Why not just go do it yourself? You’ll be able to see all of the details better. Plus, it might save you the trouble of posting again.
Why do all of you play so coy?
Kel, in a free and open society I (you) should not be unduly restricted by the religious beliefs of others – i.e. just because Muslims do not drink, Hindus do not eat meat and Jews do not eat pork does not mean that I am forced to follow their beliefs/customs.
However, in this situation, no one is being forced to go out of their way to respect Catholic right to worship.
This is a private ceremony for Catholics not a public dietary prohibition.
Understand? Of course not (i.e. social autism)
I know where Stalin would get his secret police recruits if he were around today….the screech monkey blog.
Jacky-boy Screeched:
Hey, almost like calling for the ruining of someone’s life by having them expelled from an institute of higher learning is an act of extremely aggressive provocation! Or telling off some Jackass on a blog is an act of extremely aggressive provocation! I love it! I can now use the phrase “an act of extremely aggressive provocation” in any case I want to because you’ve essentially rendered it meaningless.
I also love how you bastards wax defensive and bawl about how little respect you’re being shown. It’s just a fucking cracker.
Where’s the love for Webster Cook, hmm? Why aren’t you doing something to help that poor victim of Donohue?
“Aggressiveness to a cracker shall not be unmatched in kind” – what a joke! You, you pusillanimous fuckwit, are the epitome of lack-wittedness! May the pustules of a thousand whores rain upon your toilet seat inflicting upon you much harm!
Oh, and Jack…You’re a pussy!
Did that blow your mind?
No?
Wait… you mean that getting called names by some stranger on the internet has no impact?
Noooooooooo!
So, you freely admit you are too fucking dim-witted to even read and understand the post that PZ put up here explaining that he has other things to do?
You are a very strange and angry little person. Perhaps you should go have some Jello and play with your crayons.
Neural T, sorry, I didn’t catch your post. Yes, I’m putting 30 to 1 (using Jack’s money) that the thread goes until morning because PZ decided that he needed a life and doesn’t realize until approx 8:30 am that this thread needs to be shut down.
SteveM:
Yes, the Eucharist is meant to be destroyed, but not wasted.
When the Eucharist is consumed it becomes part of the person who consumes it. It is made to become part of us. In that sense, it is not wasted when it is properly consumed.
Paolo:
The fact that you are pained when certain crackers are destroyed or go missing is unfortunate but that does not mean that it is in your or my best interest to placate you. It’s a cracker and until someone can provide testible evidence or a reasonable argument that shows it turns into the flesh of God then any crackers that come into my possession will be treated as crackers. That I act reasonably according to the evidence is good for you and for me.
You are the one who mediates your emotions. If you are pained it is because of your beliefs. I would think that many Catholics would not be pained but rather bouyed up by the belief that God will use his miraculous power to deal with the problem.
What about it? Will you make a reasoned, cogent argument that shows the cracker becomes the flesh of God? We aren’t rigid. We respond to evidence.
“Wait… you mean that getting called names by some stranger on the internet has no impact?”
Please don’t take that away from him, Big City.
It’s… it’s kind of all he’s got.
Paolo,
Being a Hindu is not the same as being an Indian. There are many Hindus in the US who do get offended with the slaughter of Cows over there. How is this not like desecrating the cracker?
And by the way most Christians that I know of(in India) do eat beef and many Hindu organizations here actively talk about how that is an attack on Hinduism.
Logically, you are offending the religious sentiments of many Hindus even if you never intended to do so. Having the cow slaughtered in the US doesn’t absolve you of the offense, which extends to things beyond the political boundaries of a country.
So kindly stop eating beef, unless you want to be seen as a hypocrite.
PZ= THE MAN!!!!!
This is seriously amazing, I can’t believe it has been taken this far.
It’s. A. Frackin. Cracker.
A CRACKER!!!!
Paolo: You are making artificial and convenient distinctions. The point has been made that by getting and doing whatever he did to the Eucharist he has hurt people who actually know nothing of this happening. That would mean that the Eucharist is holy according to Catholics regardless of where this takes place or who knows about it. That the cows you kill aren’t in India doesn’t necessarily make them less holy.
“Why do all of you play so coy?”-Jack
I don’t know, why are you so schizoid?
“I know where Stalin would get his secret police recruits if he were around today….the screech monkey blog.”
(looses breath from laughing uncontrollably)
How old ARE you?
(laughs and laughs and laughs)
Rey Fox #1120,
I think you’ll find at least a hint of it in pretty well any decent dictionary, and quite a bit in any popular etymology dictionary, which tend to have quite a bit about vulgar slang in them. I *think* I read it in a Collins dictionary of etymology, but it’s so long ago I can’t be sure. “Pussy” meaning “vagina” is very old and derived from something meaning “pocket”, though, I recall.
Hopefully PZ is in bed so we can hit 2000 comments by morning.
God desires that all people go to heaven but He does not force anyone to love Him. He does not send anyone to hell. People go to hell because they choose to not love God and because they do not want to be with Him.
Jesus loves all of you, even those who say they do not believe in Him. He is waiting for you to open your heart to Him. Jesus is real and He loves you!
Julie
Bullshit. You claim privilege to your cracker because it’s involved in your Constitutionally protected ceremonies. So then you should, by the exact same logic, allow anyone to obtain your cracker for their own purposes, nefarious included. How dare you interfere with a Satanist’s right to sacrilege!
“God desires that all people go to heaven but He does not force anyone to love Him. He does not send anyone to hell. People go to hell because they choose to not love God and because they do not want to be with Him.
Jesus loves all of you, even those who say they do not believe in Him. He is waiting for you to open your heart to Him. Jesus is real and He loves you!
Julie”
If God built hell and still allows people to go there, he is sending people there, for all intents and purposes.
If God didn’t want them in heaven but still loved them, let him send them to another pleasant place. Or just cause them to cease to exist if they so desire.
Ah, but if that were the case, the religion would use its primary draw: the ability to scare people into joining up. Heaven may not sound that great, but it sure beats roasting forever, doesn’t it?
But that’s fine. Whatever. If any god or gods want me to believe in them, they need only offer me concrete evidence.
“I know where Stalin would get his secret police recruits if he were around today….the screech monkey blog.”
At least we don’t have Robert Mugabe, devout Catholic, in our ranks.
Julie shat out:
‘Jesus loves all of you, even those who say they do not believe in Him. He is waiting for you to open your heart to Him.’
Dick move, Jesus! Totally pulled a fast one on us, giving us logic and then hiding behind it.
And, Julie, ever heard of “blame the victim”?
Julie, the way I was raised in the faith, no one comes to the father but by me. Which would seem to me that all the people who have never been told of Christ are doomed to an eternity in fire do to no fault of their own.
Jack,
I am hurt that you keep taking my name in vain. Why would you go out of your way to come onto this blog comments section, which is holy to me, and desecrate it with your blasphemy? Are you socially autistic?
Woundedly,
That’s a perfectly bizarre and outrageous accusation that borders on a libelous accusation of burglary and vandalism. There is no evidence to suggest that PZ has ever entered the home of any person uninvited, much less desecrated anything belonging to them while there.
Like, Julie, like I was raised as a christian, which you being Catholic and all, aren’t according to the Evangelical Churches. Like, look up Jack Chick on the web, and like, see what he says about Catholics.
Like, I grew up and realized the crap you’re spouting is all make believe and stuff, so, like, you’re a goofball. So like make toward the cyberdoor and say goodnight, Okay?
uh, Webster Cook’s fellow students voted to impeach him in the student senate for his actions. . . moreover, no one has every been able to produce the “death threats” he says he received or the “assault” (or was it a nun, quietly asking him to return the host if he didn’t intend to eat it?) he claims to have suffered. . . .
as noted above, PZ’s 15 minutes of fame are just about up. hope he enjoyed his “show” and has worked his ego issues out. maybe now he can now spend some time actually working on getting a full professorship somewhere instead of creating his own cult of sycophants.
I know, I know, here come the obscene comments about me. . . what passes for argument on this site: name calling and invective and speculation on who or what I am, rather than addressing any issues. :)
Catlicks are insane.
Julie,
Allah loves you and is waiting on you to open your heart to him and the One True Faith. If you don’t he has no choice but to sentence you and your smelly twat to be tortured forever. So what are you waiting for? What’s your problem? Convert, or you’re asking for it!
I will pray for you!
chrisD, the moron, writes:
“So then you should, by the exact same logic, allow anyone to obtain your cracker for their own purposes, nefarious included. How dare you interfere with a Satanist’s right to sacrilege!”
Ever hear of a private group/club/organization?
To participate in one you need to be a member you need to adhere the rules, regs and customs etc.
Too difficult for you to understand, chrisy? Do you know how to interact with other humans away from your computer?
No-one is stopping the Catholic right to worship! It’s destruction of a cracker. If you have a problem with the means, then that’s something different. But this has not ever been about the means, almost unanimous objection has been towards the desecration of the sacred element, not the means in which it’s obtained. If the only objection you have is that it was gotten by ill means, then I see your point. But you can’t object to the desecration then desecrate a sacred animal of another religion.
So Jack. Is your only objection that it was gotten from a Catholic ceremony? Or are you objecting to the desecration too?
Well I wanted to hear from Jack, Trey and Julie but I’ve got to get up early for a road trip. So good night all!!
“I know, I know, here come the obscene comments about me. . . what passes for argument on this site: name calling and invective and speculation on who or what I am, rather than addressing any issues. :) ”
You say that as though you’re willing to actually address the issues.
But no, all of a sudden it’s so hard for you to believe that religious extremists might send death threats, and yet Catholics have no problem believing there’s an invisible magic sky fairy watching them (and all of us) at all times, and they don’t need any evidence for that. That’s kind of adorable.
But no, it’s much more likely that a cracker is the body of a Jewish zombie and that no catholics would ever send death threats or get irate over their silly superstitions.
Prayer – How to look like your helping while accomplishing nothing.
You just count those roserie beads sister, your’re not bothering us.
Prayer – How to look like your helping while accomplishing nothing.
Just count those beads sister, your’re not bothering us.
Spelling -fail
#1021 regarding what they do with the wine (blood!) when it spills. They block off the area so no one accidentally steps in it, then they blot it up as best they can and try to get every last drop of blood up. Then they pour the blood and water down a special sink that leads directly to the ground. But, if they do accidentally hire an atheist to clean the carpet, the atheist goes up in smoke.
This thread really got weird when all the godbots (Margaret & MK) started pasting. They must have had some Catholic prayer group decided to join the thread.
I was out eating deep fried halibut and jebus chips with tartar sauce.
AgnoAtheist:
I honestly believe that it would be better if God does nothing than goes out of his way to do something to Professor Myers.
For one, it would be too spectacular. That’s never God’s style. If anything, that would inspire fear of his power rather than opening hearts to his love.
For another, many Catholics take the Eucharist lightly. Although a display of power would certainly shake up many Catholics to behave, again it would be artificially imposed rather than come from love and devotion.
Lastly, too many Catholics are looking for an “easy answer” to vindicate their beliefs by some miracle or empirical proof that they can show to others. That would be too damaging to an individual soul because such an event leads not to humility, but to pride.
So I do not think that God will act accordingly.
Also, if a Eucharistic Host does end up in your possession, someone is not doing their job. To obtain one, you would have to go out of your way to take one from the Communion line or break into the locked tabernacle at a Catholic Church.
In either case, you would be deliberately going out of your way rather than coming across one. I wouldn’t expect you to treat it with reverence and respect, but hey, most Catholics don’t either – so I don’t blame you.
As far as investigating proofs, the problem is that there is no empirical proof that it is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. It looks, smells, and tastes like bread and wine. It is only on faith that I believe it is truly, Jesus Christ.
It all hinges on whether or not Jesus Christ is God.
If He is, then it will begin to make sense. If he is not, then yes, Catholicism is insanity and should be destroyed. There is no tolerable “middle ground.” Where I disagree with Professor Myers, I think his sentiment is much closer to the truth than most peoples’ mediocre tolerance to “just all get along, no matter how insane I think you are.”
But if you want something you can try to explore yourself, just search “Eucharistic Miracles” when you have the time and wish to do an honest empirical search for something more tangible.
Little Jacky-boy wailed:
Teh irony! It burns!!!!!!11!!1
Classic, OctoberMermaid, that in your answer you state that I’m not willing to address the issues; then you ignore the issues I raised!
“ah, the ironing (wink) is delicious. . .”
Your “God” is an evil immoral monster who believes in compulsory love through fear and intimidation, threatening us with eternal torture if we don’t love him. He is petty, unjust, unforgiving, a god who mandates murder, rape, and genocide. The notion of vicarious redemption by torture and murder is evil and immoral: I’ve done nothing so evil that it requires the torture and murder of another human being to atone for it (as MAJeff says). The notion of vicarious responsibility for a sin committed by others, the “original sin” is evil and immoral. Any morally normal person recognises these things, and the bloodthirsty bronze-age brutality and savagery of your demented psychopathic god, unless they’ve been brainwashed into your bizarre zombie cult of death and perpetual self-loathing and misery.
Go peddle your horrible death cult somewhere else.
Now, I’m not pointing fingers or anything, but I’m missing a couple of bottles of Guinness and half a box of Wheat Thins.
I’m just sayin…
Somehow I knew the point would sail right past you, you beef-witted magpie. The only way a Satanist can obtain the wafer’s they need is to get it from you guys. Why do you deny them the right to worship? Don’t you believe in the First Amendment when it applies to people you disagree with? No, of course not. Your sacred cows are the only ones that matter to you.
Good luck rising from your self-induced mental coma Jacky, my boy! There’s a whole cracker-free world out there that isn’t imbued with nonsense for you when you decide to finally wake up!
Thanks for the post, Paolo – very true words; however, is there not a time to defend when beginning attacked?
I think St. Augustine has something to say along these lines but I will take your advice.
God bless, goodnight.
keep swiping Jack. (laughs and laughs)
Thanks for getting rid of that retard, Paolo. If you keep this up, we’d love to have you stick around.
Ooh, The Dark Knight, PZ? Just as you posted this post, I was heading out the door to go watch it in IMAX. Yes, excellent. Watchmen trailer too, excellent. IMAX.
By the way, since it’s the middle of the night now, I’m wondering if any of you also noticed that overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out?
puzzled,
You didn’t raise any issues; hence, there was nothing to address.
Feel free to try again.
JonathanL:
The unfortunate problem is what you are arguing for is “reductio ad absurdum.” If you take your argument and press it to the extreme, anything that anyone does that may offend someone else should be stopped.
Thus, we offend Muslims by our dress, but complicity would offend people who would like light clothing in intolerable heat. If we truly go by the Hindu beliefs of reincarnation, we would have to stop entire industries of food production.
The best solution is simply to let each other do in their home (and home country) what is culturally acceptable without proselytizing another with our sensibilities. To go out of our way to do nothing that offends, would be absurd when taken as the cardinal rule because where does it end?
Where Professor Myers is in the wrong was that however it takes to obtain a consecrated Eucharistic host is either himself or an accomplice (whom he has publicly solicited on his blog) would have to enter a private place of worship.
That is most definitely “going out of your way” to offend someone rather than doing something that is accidental or a cultural norm.
(delurking after 986 comments and two hours’ reading to say:)
Dinkum @985
Oh, THANK YOU. I knew she Miki was ticking me off for some reason… You’re exactly right. Ahem, hem!
Shame on them. And shame on any American who believes in the Constitution and supports them in their violation of the principle of separation of church and state. Imagine if a Muslim US Senator were impeached for failing to take his shoes off when he entered a mosque! It’s obscene that a petty religious matter like when someone did or did not eat a holy cracker should be used to persecute a person in their secular life.
Shame on the whole damn lot of them and shame on you for saying that here as if it were evidence of wrongdoing.
Paolo said:
Paolo, many posters here who are former catholics have said they often took the host in exactly the same manner that Webster Cook did.
With that in mind, if PZ only accepted wafers from people who were catholics at the time they got them, would he be doing anything wrong?
You are rationalizing the inaction of an imaginary deity by invoking imaginary restrictions upon it… wow. Tell me about this Hell place again…
RE: Paul @732
Oh, boy…there is a poll at Paul’s page.
Not that I would want anyone to participate, or anything…
Kel: “So Jack. Is your only objection that it was gotten from a Catholic ceremony? Or are you objecting to the desecration too?”
Kel, you cannot seperate the ceremony from the icon; therefore, if you participate in the private ceremony of Holy Communion, it is unethical to do so in anything other than good faith and reverence.
If you do not have these things, then simply do not participate.
So I’m damned to an eternity in fire yet he loves me. Hmmmmm.. why does this seem so ‘un-christian.’
Yes. You are loved because even though you may be hateful and pigheaded (not saying you are, bcause I don’t know you… some on this blog certainly are…), God came down from heaven to be beaten, mocked spit on and murdered so that you wouldn’t be damned… God doesn’t desire the death of a sinner – but neither will God force you to change. You have to decide – God ratifies your choice. That is called free will.
As for the question about all non-Christians going to hell… Catholics do not believe this… You can verify that by reading Dante, or Vatican II, or any other number of texts. We are saved by Christ, but not always by an explicit belief in Christ. The Church teaches that those that respond to God’s grace, though they know nothing of the Church, can be saved.
Wowbagger:
Though it would be a stretch (because a believing Catholic should not be doing such a thing), I will assume that he obtains the Eucharist by some licit means. Let’s say it was even purely by accident where someone left one lying around.
Then what was his purpose? What was his intent?
Was it to educate? Or was it to hurt other people’s feelings and deeply held beliefs?
There I cannot make judgments on his motivations. But I think we would all universally recognize that if he was simply doing it out of intentional malice and to get a rise out of people, then it was clearly in the wrong.
Jack, I’ll ask you what I asked Paolo – what if genuine catholics kept their hosts (as has been reported by several former catholics) and then, after they stopped being catholics, sent the wafers to PZ?
Is him ‘desecrating’ them still a bad thing?
Paulo #1180. You use flawed logic. You have no idea how PZ got the Jebus cracker. Perhaps some of us are former Catholics who happen to have some old Jebus crackers in a box and sent him some. Some Catholics have admitted they took the crackers home. In fact, in some cultures it’s common for Catholics to do so.
You have the choice to be here and to allow yourself to be offended. You WANT to be offended. It makes you feel justified in hating non-Catholics.
I wonder if Catholic priests will become paranoid and treat their sheeples like suspected criminals because they fear an army of Atheist are descending on their places of worship to steal Jebus crackers. I find that thought rather amusing. Maybe they’ll use it as an excuse to do strip searches to make sure no one smuggles a cracker out. That’s what they did with “witches”. They striped them naked and looked for “devil marks”. I’m sure they did quite a bit of groping while they were at it.
Who wants to take bets on which one of these godbots is Donahooey in disguise? Most likely most, if not all, of these idiots are in his flock. I am sure Greg Moore is in here some place as well.
Which PZ Myers has not done. All he did was desecrate it.
“socially autistic”
Shut the hell up Salt, you’re a fundament.
Elastico @1064
No, usually they’re/we’re much more incisive, but the intellectual level has been dragged down by the godbots.
ChrisD:
“You are rationalizing the inaction of an imaginary deity by invoking imaginary restrictions upon it… wow.”
That’s why it is called “faith.” :)
It is a mental paradigm that is almost impossible to shatter. I’ve seen people live through some of the darndest things and pass it off as mere dumb luck where I would see it as possibly “divine intervention.”
We all wear our rose-colored glasses. The important thing is being able to recognize it, laugh at it, and share it with others.
I may be wrong on pegging Jack as Salt but unless socially autistic is a common term among fundies I fully believe we have a sock puppet on our hands.
The so called “CRACKER” is NOT a “CRACKER” once Transubstantiation takes place. Forgive them Lord for they know not what they are doing.
Paolo,
Problem with that is that people here are trying to point out that it’s only bad because he’s obtaining them (‘stealing’) in some illegal or devious way – when it’s entirely possible he’s getting them without inciting anyone to do anything other than what many, many catholics have done before – as we’ve read here.
As for ‘intentionally hurting people’, that’s where you’re wrong. He’s pointing out that getting upset over a cracker is irrational and wrong. People are letting themselves be hurt by his actions – there’s a huge difference.
1200?
Dammit. And, KD, stop being so melodramatic.
Most of the comments here terribly lack of spiritual ignorance as many don’t even believe in God except for two comments. All I can say is that we are living a very sad times of spiritual ignorance, deafness and blindness as there is NO more reverence to God and to His plan ~ and one of His plans is “The Sacred Holy Host” where Jesus is present. We are insignificant humans in comparison to our creator and we cannot be present in two places at once, but GOD can be at a million places at the same time, that is how powerful he is. So, He is present in the Holy Host. Hey you out there who has the disrespectful and irrelevant comments about the Holy Sacrament that the poor soul PZ Meyers calls it “cracker.” You just don’t know and have absolutely no idea that when you’ll die you have to face God, no escape. What would you tell Him them for desecrating what He instituted as His own flesh and blood?
To you out there who ignore God’s will, word and plan; attaching to thing and bad ways of this world such as insulting and not caring to what Jesus God has instituted ~ then it is your own fate that you are playing with and you may get burn. Remember that for ever action there are consequences.
God will do His justice on those who, in this short live, are so cynical and disrespectful to what He himself has INSTITUTED. No more comments.
Capital Dan #1173: LOL! Come to think of it, I thought I had a packet of Ritz and a bottle of iffy Cabernet Sauvignon that I can’t seem to lay my hands on either. Hmmm…
Thus spake OctoberMermaid:
Fuck that. If he can get rid of the rest of the retards so quickly, I’ll nominate him for a Molly!
Thus spake Paolo:
Was it to defend a Catholic kid who made a simple faux-pas against a witch-hunt by a powerful self-aggrandising bigot? Was it to make a point about the silliness of valuing time of consumption of a cracker over the career and future of a 19 y/o student?
“The so called “CRACKER” is NOT a “CRACKER” once Transubstantiation takes place. Forgive them Lord for they know not what they are doing.”
Still a cracker.
And as for what Trey said about God coming down to die so I wouldn’t be damned, well, as another commenter here once said (I hope he forgives me for borrowing this): “I’ve never done anything bad enough to require the death of another human being to absolve me.” If you want to think you did, that’s fine, but I didn’t and so I feel no guilt over these imagined transgressions.
Wowbagger:
If a child has a “security blanket” we don’t throw it in the fire and tell them that they are “letting themselves be hurt” because their attachment is irrational and wrong.
When a family pet dies, we don’t kick the carcass and tell the family that they are just “making themselves upset” because you aren’t hurting the dog’s dead body.
I hope you can see that the argument that “other people are letting themselves get hurt” is an argument that can lead to ridiculous results.
As a bit of irony, I used to have an ex-girlfriend who used to justify cheating on me by saying, “You knew who I was to start with. You’re only letting yourself get hurt.”
Funny thing was, I believed her for a while. :)
#516,
Actually, the “BILLION!!1!!1!” number is used by the dishonest catholic weasels to seem like they have strength in numbers. The reality is that they keep official books, and are including people like me, ex-caths who just have been baptized (usually when very young children), hence “registered” but not excommunicated or officially renounced. Nobody goes through that trouble.
I think most “catholics” don’t even believe or know what the hell is the transubstantiation. The actual number of people who believe such things, I take it from experience, might very well be much less than half of that dishonest billion figure.
Nancy. Many thanks for that pile of dribble you left. If only you can clean that up.
Nancy:
Thanks, because that rest of that one was semantically vacuous bullshit.
Paolo wrote:
Unfortunately, Paolo, you are in a very small minority if the mindset of your co-religionists is anything to go by.
Had the people who’d noticed Webster Cook doing what he did had just shook their heads and maybe had a quiet word to him afterwards about how he’d done the wrong thing according to their rules, we wouldn’t be here writing about this.
Unfortunately, they decided they wanted to make a big fuss about it, threaten the idiot kid and draw some attention to themselves for wanting special privileges for their religious beliefs.
And that’s wrong as far as I’m concerned. PZ may have sensationalised the issue, but I agree with his reasons for doing so.
Nancy,
1. Saying we have “lack of spiritual ignorance” means that we have total ‘spiritual’ knowledge. You need to pray for the enlightenment on the subject of double negatives. Or check wikipedia.
2. If we don’t revere “God’s plan”, then either that itself is part of his plan or his plan didn’t come to fruition. Painted yourself into a corner there, sweetheart.
Stop confusing yourself with words. We get it, you’re God’s bitch. No need to jabber on.
Hundreds of comments later…
I forgot to mention J,
You can’t destroy church property or interfere in the free exercise of religious worship.
This very point is what was under argument. Is pocketing a cracker an interference of religious worship? You assumed it was some sort of violation. I claim that it isn’t. You hadn’t (up till that point) proved otherwise. I have stated that after the cracker is handed over it is no longer church property. Also, the act of pocketing it disturbs nothing.
So far, no one has proved otherwise, including you J. So don’t feel too bad. None of you are capable.
I’ll now let you all return to your scheduled ripping of offended catholics.
The so called “CRACKER” is NOT a “CRACKER” once Transubstantiation takes place.
An act of make-believe does not turn something magical.
Paolo:
Let’s not be too hasty on how PZ or his ‘accomplices’ obtained a wafer(s). According to posters people get them as gifts at weddings, funerals and at Christmas.
Also, I think your argument for leaving people be in their “homes” is weak. Is there not a time for speaking out against such things as female circumcision or even taking the implements of such acts and throwing them off a cliff? Your reasoning would have eliminated the Underground Railroad. We gays would still be living in miserable conditions if we had not actively rebeled against “what is culturally acceptable”.
Every Sunday morning in thousands of churches across America atheists are equated to the scum of the earth, mass murders, rapists, etc. There are times for direct action that breaks the social contract or forces a fresh look at harmful ideas. It’s the only way that marginalized people can gain their rightful dignity. We are not going to roll over for social nicities founded in wild, crazy interpretaions of reality.
A young man was accosted, his education and future income threatened as well as his life. PZ came to his defence and the same happenned to him. All over a cracker.
“To you out there who ignore God’s will, word and plan; attaching to thing and bad ways of this world such as insulting and not caring to what Jesus God has instituted ~ then it is your own fate that you are playing with and you may get burn.”
Blasphemy’s a victim-less crime, kiddo.
For example, I deny the holy spirit. Total bullshit. Don’t believe it at all.
Oh, crap. Unforgivable sin. What will I doooooooooooooooo? :(
“Jack, I’ll ask you what I asked Paolo – what if genuine catholics kept their hosts (as has been reported by several former catholics) and then, after they stopped being catholics, sent the wafers to PZ?
Is him ‘desecrating’ them still a bad thing?”
Yes, due to the fact that it is done out of malice and the fact that he issued a call for supporters to go into churches to unethically “score” the Host.
The fact that he does not believe is inconsequential. He is free to write, blog, illustrate etc. his unbelief; but not to call for the physical taking or desecration of icons.
This has already lead to copy cats on video sites and will restrict Catholic worship if they feel threatened by constant unethical participation and the taking of communion for malicious purposes.
There are lines in civil society and PZ crossed them; why you all defend his hostile and irrational behavior is a mystery.
Man, Sheeple bleating gives me the creeps. Big Time. The brainless babbling scares the crap out of me.
It doesn’t matter which religion it is, when they can’t answer questions put forth, they resort to religious babble. (and when that doesn’t work, passive aggressive threats, and then outright threats).
Notice how they take great joy in the thought that a gawd fairy will throw us into hell? What delight I have seen many of the posters here display at the idea that we will suffer for all eternity. At the same time they gloat at such a horror, they present themselves as righteous and upstanding. They are just loving, concerned Christians in their own eyes.
I consider that kind of thinking psychotic, evil, and dangerous.
“This has already lead to copy cats on video sites and will restrict Catholic worship if they feel threatened by constant unethical participation and the taking of communion for malicious purposes”
Yeah, it IS pretty threatening. You’d think the all-powerful creator of everything would be able to deal with these insidious cracker-thieves.
Course, he didn’t deal very well with the crusades, the inquisition, or the buggery so… doesn’t look too good for the big guy.
Paolo,
The blanket analogy has been used before – you should probably realise that likening you and your belief system to a child with a security blanket is something an atheist would use to insult a theist.
You aren’t children. You’re adults, and adults shouldn’t believe in fairy tales – or magic blankets.
The pet is a bit more complicated, but I’ll go with this: even dead, the pet was once, regardless of the religious belief of those looking at it, alive and real; it interacted. If you can show that the cracker is anything other than a cracker then we will treat it with respect.
A better analogy would be a YouTube video of people kicking the picture of an animal that looked a bit like someone’s dead pet.
Wowbagger:
I think we can all agree is that people do stupid things and the important thing is recognizing that we are people too.
The Internet is not a great place for these kinds of discussions because we don’t see each other face to face and the humanity that is behind these words – the real people we are touching through the ether.
I was once an atheist, but became Catholic, because I did not have the strength to be a moral person without a solid moral framework to keep my mind together. So I have great respect for atheists who can retain a sense of morality and goodness without such a constraint.
I’m nothing special, Wowbagger. I’ve met many people who are far wiser and loving than I am. I decided to post, not to incite spite and more anger, but to show God’s love for you and all those here who truly seek the truth and despise mediocrity.
It is in that hope that I posted, that maybe one day, we can all toast, laugh and share our stories till the end of time.
For now, I put down my glasses and go to sleep. I have enjoyed my time here with you all and wish you the best.
God love you.
Agno: “Every Sunday morning in thousands of churches across America atheists are equated to the scum of the earth, mass murders, rapists, etc.”
Dont be so dramatic, Agno; I have never heard the word “atheist” mentioned in any mass I have attended.
As for the kid in FL, it was a stunt (much like PZ’s) and he is now suing the school by claiming that Catholic mass is a form “hazing” due to the presence of alcohol.
He was also just impeached by his student body in a unanimous vote. (i bet you think the Catholic Church put them up to it…)
You rationalists are very irrational.
Seriously, how in the Net does this topic get so much comments in such a short time? You could make a novel out of it! LOL. I don’t even dare to skim through the comments here…
Do we really need to ‘indulge’ these religious fanatics with a battle of wits and insults?
This has already lead to copy cats on video sites and will restrict Catholic worship if they feel threatened by constant unethical participation and the taking of communion for malicious purposes.
Restriction of worship due to the worshippers feeling threatened? Hells yeah!
I must say I have never been more ashamed of other human beings than I am after reading the over 1,000 comments filled with nothing but vulgarities.
And I would expect a lot more class, dignity, and respect from a “professor”. So much for “higher” education.
Why is it that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice? If this “professor” said something sexist or racist, insulted the Jewish people, blacks, or some other minority, he would have been fired. Yet, he can physically attack a most sacred and fundamental belief of billions of people for over 2,000 years? A belief that good people have given their lives for? I just don’t get it, and I probably don’t want to.
Thus spake Paolo:
Again, your analogies are all of people going out and actively doing outrageously hurtful things that are simply not accurate parallels of the situation here. What actually happened was more akin to someone taking a peanut from a bar without buying a beer, then another bar-customer tackling him, calling the cops and the media, and demanding that he be charged with larceny, then peanut-lovers calling for him to be charged with hate-crimes (for some bizarre reason), and him being threatened with being fired for flagrant abuse of a peanut. In protest at this ridiculous witch-hunt and to defend the peanut-abuser (who since returned the peanut to the bar), PZ then said, “send me a peanut and I’ll show you f**king peanut abuse”, some people actually sent him peanuts, so now he has to follow through with the rhetorical peanut abuse, no matter how silly it may be or how offensive it might be to peanut lovers, mostly because the peanut-lovers have gone absolutely apeshit about him getting peanuts in the mail.
Big City #1208, A hearty high-five for that one. I haven’t had such a good laugh for quite a few comments.
Geoffrey, get over it. What you said has been said over and over, and nobody buys it. It has been answered in all possible forms, from the kindest and “dignified” to the most crass and “vulgar”. What you say doesn’t impress us, and is not convincing at all. And, it isn’t true.
Oct Mermaid,
You did not address my argument at all regarding civil society and freedom to worship without threat or intimidation; you just launched into an standard, baseless attack.
How about a bit of intellectual honesty?
“Why is it that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice? If this “professor” said something sexist or racist, insulted the Jewish people, blacks, or some other minority, he would have been fired. Yet, he can physically attack a most sacred and fundamental belief of billions of people for over 2,000 years? A belief that good people have given their lives for? I just don’t get it, and I probably don’t want to. ”
It’s been said many times before: attacking an idea is hot hate speech. Ideas are not beyond criticism. If you’re not even allowed to question them, well.. then they fester and grow over generations to the point where, even if they are objectively VERY stupid ideas, they have such a strong hold on the culture that they’re that much harder to shake.
People believed the earth was flat for a long time, too. Many people have lost their lives for other religions they were passionate about. They were just as false. Delusions and mental security blankets and it’s sad that they were so irrational as to lose their lives for them. That’s why this kind of “faith-based” thinking that requires no evidence and in fact rewards believing when the evidence is AGAINST it is so insidious. People die for it and they also kill for it.
It’s quite possible to be a good, moral person without fairy tales and the threat of eternal punishment always hanging over your head to keep you in check.
Jack:
“I haven’t heard the word ‘atheist’ mentioned in any mass I have attended.”
Maybe it’s a Protestant thing. I spent the first 30 years of my life in church and I heard it all the time. I even preached it myself for about nine years. All I can say in my defence was that my heart really wasn’t in it.
AgnoAtheist:
I understand your line of reasoning and I believe you are correct – that there is a time and place for “proselytizing” and protesting what is an erroneous belief system. Ending Slavery and the Civil Rights Movement are prime examples of such.
But the hard question is “to what ends?”
As I explained to Wowbagger, I was once an atheist, but I was deep believer in Nietzsche – that there really was no true right and wrong – only power and the willingness to impose it on others.
That was when I became Catholic, because I did not believe that was right, but could not express it on my own terms.
I wish I could continue this conversation, but it is late and I feel I would not do justice for any follow up posts.
I hope that we at least had a good conversation in the meantime. And, God-willing, may perhaps pick up again.
Till then…
God love you.
BAM!…
There you have it folks, the honest answer for all the Xtian anger – any actions proving their belief system and ‘spirituality’ is just a mental crutch is too confronting. They fear taking responsibility and ownership for their thoughts and actions, so they blur the thoughts with dogma and restrict the actions with rituals.
and as we all know…
“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you…” xtians…
Jack, there’s not much mystery involved. As I see it, PZ thinks that by pointing out irrationalities in your religion, he’ll inspire people to think critically about their own beliefs and maybe (just maybe) they’ll decide to give them up.
Basically, we want you to want to let go of god. Honestly, we (okay, I; i won’t speak for anyone else) don’t hate you, or want to persecute you (mocking your beliefs isn’t persecution, no matter how it’s defined) or want to force you to give up your beliefs – we’re just hoping that, by pointing stuff out, you’ll want to give them up of your own free will.
Does that make sense?
Now, you might be strong in your beliefs and consider this a stupid, futile task. But not everyone is as strong in their faith as you are – many posters here are former Christians and can testify to deconverting because something like this made them realise they didn’t believe anymore; the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak.
It’s the atheist equivalent of posting scripture on an atheist blog, handing out tracts, telling people ‘I’ll pray for you’, etc; I don’t know how often that works, but people keep doing it anyway.
That’s how i see it, anyway.
“Oct Mermaid,
You did not address my argument at all regarding civil society and freedom to worship without threat or intimidation; you just launched into an standard, baseless attack.
How about a bit of intellectual honesty?”
You didn’t address my point that if God is so big and powerful why he can’t make sure nobody steals these crackers or, even better, soothes the frayed nerves of his frightened sheep who see cracker thieves in every shadow, looking to disrupt services by putting crackers in their pockets, which I guess makes a very loud sinful noise when done during Mass? Something very loud and frightening? Sky turns red with blood?
Assuming anyone even DOES try stealing the silly cracker. I can’t speak for any other atheists, but I kind of doubt they’d go to the trouble. The people who sent any to PZ most likely did it because, as has been mentioned, they recieved them for Christmas or whatever and had no use for them.
And a history lesson isn’t really an attack. I just think we should see this in perspective. You know, the group that was responsible for the crusades, the inquisition, all of that fun stuff can’t handle one missing cracker?
Wow.
No, really, you guys are… just awesome.
Agno,
Yeah, I don’t even remember hearing too much about Protestants – although I could have been asleep for one or two sermons ;)
“Yeah, I don’t even remember hearing too much about Protestants – although I could have been asleep for one or two sermons ;)”
Disrespecting God in his own house. What a disgusting bigot you are.
I can’t wait until you burn in hell for your sins.
I’ll pray for you.
If anything this proves that despite protests to the contrary, Catholics really are idolators. Once again, a wafer is not worth a single human life. And a piece of bread will never ever be anything more than a piece of bread.
The thing is that if you try to mess with someone’s life over taking a bread wafer out of church, then you only encourage copycats. People loathe bullies and rebel against them. Take the Scientology protests for example.
If the matter were settled internally, nobody would care.
The only reason the Church guards the crackers is because it gives them a perceived value. That these crackers are more *special* than the others even though all of the crackers, transubstantiated or not, are all the same. It’s simple psychology.
When I was steeped in religion, my brother once asked me if I would disown him if he burned a Bible. I thought that was a stupid question. My brother versus a book..well my brother wins every time. The host is no different than a Bible.
And giving people the false hope of being healed by a cracker or some other holy mumbo jumbo is flat out disgusting. I had an acquaintance in college that believed that her hearing would be restored by God. It’s tragic to see someone waiting for a miracle that will never happen.
On Youtube look up a user named rkenrage. He has a great series on God and healing. His other videos are pretty good as well. :-)
Finally the child predator coverup by the Vatican is one reason of many that I left Catholicism. People who protect predators are just as bad as the predators themselves. And I will not affilate myself with such an organization.
I notice now that the Church is on a PR blitz to repair its image, but in my book it’s too little too late. They aren’t remorseful that children were violated and are only sorry that their disgusting coverups were exposed.
Religion uses guilt and fear to keep people in line when they can’t use force. When I left religion for good, it was like someone took a burden off of my shoulders. Religion promises peace and harmony, but is really just mental abuse in a pretty package.
My life is a lot fuller now without religion than it ever was with it. And no, I don’t worship myself nor am I an amoral person.
I don’t have all of the answers, but I refuse to believe anything out of fear. And it’s okay to not have all of the answers. Life is one big learning opportunity. Religion is all made up by humans anyway.
At least have the courage to honestly question your beliefs and go where the answers lead you. Don’t waste your one life blindly following something.
BTW Dark Knight is a great movie.
Charlie Foxtrot:
I have not qualms admitting my weakness and need for God as a crutch. I know that had I been an atheist, I would have been a very scary one. I know my passions and addictions would have no limits had I not found a reason to stop – especially if I decided to banish any sense of guilt as a mere “social neurosis.”
I will fully admit that. But I think that the person I am now is much better for it. Even perhaps bringing some peace to an otherwise rancorous discussion.
God love you.
“Disrespecting God in his own house. What a disgusting bigot you are.
I can’t wait until you burn in hell for your sins.
I’ll pray for you.
Posted by: Nibien”
I masturbated in a church once.
I don’t really think we should pick on Paulo that much.
At least he’s been polite, honest and open about what he believes and why he believes it. Now THAT I can actually respect.
He’s the kind of person we could actually use around here.
We all (well, a good majority of us, not all) get a kick out of batting around the insults, it’s a good time. But it’s also nice to have a real discussion when people are willing and Paulo seems like he’s willing, so I’ve got no complaints there. He didn’t just come here, give a one-off post about how we’re going to hell or praying for us or whatever.
He’s made his points, stuck around to listen to rebuttals and offered his in return. I hope he comes back in the future.
These Catholics keep abusing the word “bigot.”
Schizophrenia?
By the way, Jack, thanks for the giggle. Your rage and projection are amusing to watch from the sidelines.
Mermaid: “You know, the group that was responsible for the crusades, the inquisition, all of that fun stuff can’t handle one missing cracker?”
Yes, yes…and this is the part where I say: “well, atheism killed 100 million in 100 years.”
Then you say, “atheism was not responsible, politicians were.”
Then I say, “well, weren’t politics of the monarchy responsible for the Inquisition? And the “religious” wars between France and England? etc”
Circular arguments, really…
And the fact that we have limits without god makes us less moral than you?
When Jews start institutionally protecting child-rapists, and conducting witch-hunts against their own kids for not wearing yarmulkas on straight, I’ll condemn them as vigorously as I condemn the Roman Catholic Church. If you’re expecting sympathy for your wholewheat-zombie cannibal-porn fetish or other crackpot beliefs in bronze-age horseshit or other demented fuckwittery, you’re in the wrong place. Playing the oppressed minority victim card only works when you’re actually an oppressed minority like Jews, blacks, or gays. If you’re a vast international financial institutution and an enormously powerful political lobby, it just makes you look like cynical pathetic whiny bitches.
Really? I’m ashamed when organisations conspire to protect child-rapists from prosecution. And so should you be, so go fuck yourself for where you feel your shame, you sanctimonious cocksucker.
@Sadie #1237
I thought Nibien was a satirist.
Yay! I think I’m the 1234th post!
Sadie,
That post you are quoting from is an atheist using sarcasm….
Holy shit, PZ’s gonna be pissed when he sees how big a mushroom cloud this thread’s left tomorrow. Kaboom.
Something tells me we’ll all be suffering radiation poisoning over this for a long, long time.
gdlchmst:
Read further up. I did say that I respect atheists who can retain a sense of morality and decency where I could not as an atheist.
I need the crutch because of who I am. You don’t because of who you are. We each have our strengths and weaknesses.
That’s how God made us. And neither you nor I are anything less for that difference. If anything, it makes us more for being so different so that we may reach out and acknowledge each other’s common humanity.
God love you.
OctoberMermaid,
I agree. Paolo’s presented his point of view and is, as far as I can tell, the sort believer who’s probably in the majority – unlike the shrieking, fatwa-envious Liars for Jesus™ who were here before him.
One thing that does bother me a bit, Paolo, is that you’re depending entirely on your faith as a source of morality – what if a priest came to you and told you that god wanted you to murder an abortion doctor?
What would you do then? I ask this because the kind of thinkning that you’re espousing is the sort of mindset that leads to people flying aeroplanes into tall buildings.
One of the problems atheists have with ‘religious morals’ is that the bible is full of things that really contradict most people’s ideas of morality – even if god did them or ordered people to do them in his name.
And if someone is claiming to speak for god, how do you know they are telling the truth?
Jack:
“I haven’t heard the word ‘atheist’ mentioned in any mass I have attended.”
______________
Jack, somehow I don’t believe you.
Most Christian denominations consider Atheists to be worse than Satanists…or consider them to be Satanists. We are the bogeyman. I know what was taught back when I was a Christian and I imagine the hate speech against Atheists has gotten much worse over the last 15 years. We’re more organized and vocal now, so we’re pissing religious people off like never before. I have the feeling this will be a topic you bring up at your next Holy Day, won’t it? You’ll make sure the whole congregation knows what evil people Atheists are.
My neighbor came to the door last month and asked if we were Devil Worshippers because I have a very small “Atheist” sticker on the door. Where do you suppose she got such an idiotic idea? Yep,you guessed it, church.
Many Atheists are tired of being vilified and abused. We are coming out of the closet and joining hands. It’s been a long time coming and I’m thrilled it’s happening. Perhaps someday I will be able to have Atheist bumperstickers on my truck and not get run off the road or threatened with bodily harm just because I am an Atheist.
“Then you say, ‘atheism was not responsible, politicians were.'”
No. I would point out that atheism is not a group or a club. It is defined by a lack of belief but that’s it. The only requirement for entry. No dogmas or rituals. You can’t really kill in the name of atheism.
Catholicism, on the other hand… You have to believe certain things and think certain things to be a Catholic and we’ve seen how things have gone when this group had all the power. People have killed and died in the name of it with the church’s full support and if they had the same kind of power now as they did then, why should we expect any different?
After all, their beliefs and their holy book are as unchanging as their god. The interpretations might fluctuate a bit, but.. well, that tended to be a bit bloody the last time there was a big, ah, dispute about ’em, too.
OctoberMermaid:
Thank you. I really appreciate it.
I’m still trying to hang up and go to bed. :) So you have me for just a little bit longer.
“When Jews start institutionally protecting child-rapists, and conducting witch-hunts against their own kids for not wearing yarmulkas on straight, I’ll condemn them as vigorously as I condemn the Roman Catholic Church. If you’re expecting sympathy for your wholewheat-zombie cannibal-porn fetish or other crackpot beliefs in bronze-age horseshit or other demented fuckwittery, you’re in the wrong place.”
How about secular school teachers?
There is much more abuse in public schools (and, in general society) than any church.
But, you will ignore these facts because they would ruin stereotypical and bigoted picture you keep in your tiny mind…
I hope you’ll understand, at least to some extent, our irritation and wariness around people in the comments here, Paulo. I’ll admit, it isn’t the first time I’ve been short or rude to someone because I made the false assumption that they were one of the theists we generally get here. And I can’t promise I won’t continue being rude to those people and not treating them with much respect because I don’t feel they deserve it.
And of course, we probably will get spiritted in debates now and in the future, but if you’ve stuck around this long, hopefully you won’t hold it against us too much if we get “too” into it or too rude, and hopefully if we do that, we’ll also be able to catch it and apologize.
We’re not really all giant assholes like sometimes might seem. Well, I mean, I am, but these other guys seem all right. I’ll vouch for ’em.
BULLSHIT.
“If you are the most loving person in the world, Jesus Christ, you will let your friend walk into that burning building.”
OctoberMermaid #1236:
Yes, I agree. He’s not been doing the usual insipid godbotting and wanking. He seems to be genuine and having an interesting to-and-fro with Wowbagger and a couple of others. I’ll stick with ridiculing and baiting the trolls and tards, though, it’s more fun :o)
“Why is it that anti-Catholicism is the last acceptable prejudice? If this “professor” said something sexist or racist, insulted the Jewish people, blacks, or some other minority, he would have been fired.”
Catholicism teaches prejudice against non catholics you hypocrite fucktard. Your religion teaches that I deserve to be tortured for eternity so shut the fuck up asshole.
Maybe I should start my own religion and I’ll preach that Catholics are evil and deserve to rot in hell.
Religion makes people so fucking dumb.
Oh, I don’t want to pick on Paulo, from the bit I’ve read (I couldn’t wade through all 1.2k+ posts and hope to join in today) he’s certainly a welcome change from the usual Hellfire hopefuls we get, but I did think that his very honest revelation was useful in making a point that may clarify an atheist’s position on religion to the religous lurking about here.
In future discussions with Paulo it may be interesting to probe the topic of “do my problems need a god”?
@Jack: “There is much more abuse in public schools (and, in general society) than any church. ”
Well, actually no, there isn’t. Not relative to the numbers after all.
But, much more relevant: With secular schools or society in general, there isn’t a huge criminal organisation behind it, blaming the victims and trying to cover everything up.
“Catholicism, on the other hand… You have to believe certain things and think certain things to be a Catholic and we’ve seen how things have gone when this group had all the power.”
I am a bit too tired to continue; however, I have to say that the “Church” is not the monolithic entity that is portrayed in the media or Dan Brown thrillers.
There are many different nationalities, cultures and groups with the Church and this was true to an even greater extent during the early and middle ages.
On fundamental questions it is a hierarchy; however, on many practical issues it is like any other large and disparate organiztion.
Also, as for vilification, I have never heard a priest talk of atheists, honestly. And it cannot be forgotten that Catholics have experienced discrimination and vilification similar to what you describe by various groups.
I understand when you say that you feel embattled because many of us feel the same.
Wowbagger:
A priest is not infallible. In fact, I’ve heard priests from the pulpit say things like “There is no good, there is no evil.” In the Confessional, I’ve heard a priest tell me that pornography wasn’t a sin. Priests aren’t perfect people and sometimes make mistakes. I’ve actually had to correct a priest while I was in the Confessional.
Where people are led astray is when they put their belief in something that is false – like laying my entire faith on a human being. Inevitably, he will make a mistake and my faith will be crushed (at best), or at worst, I would have seriously hurt myself and others (possibly killed them) for a cause that is unjust and untrue.
I’ve told a friend of mine that even if I were to have a vision of angels and holy things that could not be explained other than supernaturally, I would still hold such a vision under suspicion.
The criteria I would judge the priest, the vision of angels and even the Pope’s commands would be against the entirety of Catholic teaching and thought.
If God exists and God is the source of truth, he would be CONSISTENT. Thus, he would not be issuing contradictory commands – telling me to not murder, yet telling me to kill abortion doctors through the priest (or even the Pope.)
The advantage of Catholicism over Christianity is that you have a whole history of thought and philosophy that has developed over two millenia. It isn’t simply what Pastor Joe thought on a particular Sunday and preached that is absolutely correct. Nor is it simply the Bible, which is devoid of historical context or commentary. But the WHOLE of doctrine, history, teachings and even science to inform one of God’s will.
If anything Catholicism is one of the most skeptical religions there is – that is why it is so heavily documented and slow in change.
That’s the kind of stability I sought in understanding morality.
I am deeply indebted to St. Thomas Aquinas’s method of teaching morality in the “Summa Theologica” because he is very observant to both sides of a question and answers possible objections very thoroughly.
That is also how I think, because I like finding logical loopholes and possible justifications to do stupid things. :)
“I understand when you say that you feel embattled because many of us feel the same. ”
I understand that, and it does admittedly make it hard to really work out things like this, but if nothing else, hopefully it’s been helpful to use me as a punching bag as I’ve, well, I hate to phrase it this way, but “used” you.
And I think now that we’re both kind of worn out, we can kinda see why the other is ticked off and I DO apologize for being needlessly rude or flippant when I was. I stand by the meaning behind what I said, but I could have admittedly said it kinder and less confrontrational.
Jack said “How about secular school teachers?”
Are you seriously that stupid? You honestly think most teachers are non-christians in this country?
I homeschool my children to keep them AWAY from religion in the public schools. Most high school level and below teachers are very, very religious and find creative ways to push those views down their students throats.
You just shot your own argument down. Great job. Thanks.
I feel so sorry for you. What kind of person goes out of his way to deliberately offend someone else by mocking something that means so much to them? You just went out to deliberately offend a huge number of people. Why? I am afraid it does not say much for your character.
I suppose that next week you well be calling my black brothers and sisters niggers, or pulling wings off flies, or some other insensitive, rude, and hurtful action. What an awful example for your child.
If someone out there deliberately went out of their way to ridicule your son just for the heck of it, you would feel different because someone had attacked someone you loved. By your criteria, as long as they thought they had a good reason or something to prove, it would be OK. Nevermind that his feelings would be crushed, because the culprit doesn’t care; as long as he feels justified it would be OK.
At the very least, your behavior was discourteous. At the most it was hurtful and cruel.
Does the cracker stop being sacred when hits the stomach or the small intestines?
Or does just stay holy the whole way?
“I homeschool my children to keep them AWAY from religion in the public schools. Most high school level and below teachers are very, very religious and find creative ways to push those views down their students throats.”
Funny, because religious extremists say the EXACT same thing.
Ironic.
Also, the school system IS secular, if you have not noticed.
So, you were aware that Nietzsche was wrong, but you found yourself unable to articulate the reasons. Well. You might be interested to know that many atheist philosophers have presented rebuttals to Nietzsche. The notion that “everything is permitted without God” is a belief held primarily by theists, not by atheists.
It sounds like you gave up your philosophical explorations before you had exhausted the alternatives to your default assumption.
No, you fucking retarded moron. For the millionth fucking time, that’s not the point. When the teachers’ union starts running an international criminal conspiracy to protect rapist teachers from the law, then I’ll condemn the teachers’ union and any teacher who stays in it after this becomes known. But the teachers’ union haven’t, have they? The Catholic Church, on the other hand, HAS DONE EXACTLY THAT in several countries, continues to do it as a matter of policy, and it’s a matter of public record that they’ve done this under Ratzinger’s direction since 1962. So the RCC Hierarchy is a child-rape enablement mafia. That’s not prejudice, it’s just a fact. If this is suddenly news to you, you are an ignorant fucktard.
Anyone who remains a member of such an organisation has the morals lower than a mafia lawyer. That bishops and other conspirators, all the way up the Razi, pontificate to anyone about morality makes them disgusting hypocrites.
Stop crying “bigot” every time someone points out the vile immoral turpitude of your child-rape enabling death-cult. It’s tiresome, stupid, and wrong.
mmmkay. . . Duh Cracker Jam is On. I’d rather have the jam on my cracker.
MWS:
“You might be interested to know that many atheist philosophers have presented rebuttals to Nietzsche.”
I did quite a bit of exploring. I have experience with the occult, neo-paganism, Buddhism (Tibetan and Zen), and other forms of Christianity. All of them had some implicit inconsistencies and weird moral justifications for certain things (like Mohammed was a pedophile and whatnot.)
As for rebuttals to Nietzche… A lot of those rely on a priori assumptions that I did not make for myself. Like “the idea that we should respect one another’s opinion” is an a priori assumption as well as “one should treat another like they would want to be treated.” I did not make those assumptions because they couldn’t be proven empirically.
Jack said “How about secular school teachers?”
Are you seriously that stupid? You honestly think most teachers are non-christians in this country?
I homeschool my children to keep them AWAY from religion in the public schools. Most high school level and below teachers are very, very religious and find creative ways to push those views down their students throats.
You just shot your own argument down. Great job. Thanks.
OctMermaid: “And I think now that we’re both kind of worn out, we can kinda see why the other is ticked off and I DO apologize for being needlessly rude or flippant when I was. I stand by the meaning behind what I said, but I could have admittedly said it kinder and less confrontrational.”
I couldn’t have said it better and I also apologize for early harsh remarks.
I guess people are always on the offensive in these highly charged discussions – always trying to outdo the other – and this leads to very little understanding one way or the other.
This is also how I feel about the PZ issue – lots of needless heat with very, very little light.
In any case, thanks for the note and have a good night ;)
Do you really think there are other “Professors” out there that don’t have blogs/hobbies involving religion? Should they be fired too? Their religion is most likely “prejudice” against the “infidels” of their faith as well. Does that mean they should be fired? Absolutely not. Your rights end where other peoples rights begin. This country was set up in a way that you a person can’t be penalized for a thought crime. Speaking out against the absurdity of someones ideas or beliefs gives this country a little characteristic that we call “freedom”. Are you suggesting we shouldn’t have a free country? Are you suggesting that the founding fathers were wrong when they wrote that Americans have the right to “Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness?” Maybe Professor Myers can achieve happiness by mocking religion. So what? It is his right. I don’t think you should be put in jail or fired for writing an unpatriotic comment. I just think you should respect other peoples constitutional rights. Even if they don’t respect your cannibalistic cracker=)
Nick Gotts @#987:
That’s pretty simplistic moral calculus. As long as you might want to make the Church’s rap sheet, the Church has a pretty long list of positive contributions and accomplishments as well — hospitals, education, charities, culture, etc. The whole shape of Western civilization, fundamental concepts like the dignity of the human person, the abolition of slavery are bound up with the influence of Christianity. And if some of the good associated with Christianity would or might have happened apart from the Church, the same goes for the bad.
I realize that this stab at nuance will probably trigger sundry avalanches of bilious anti-Catholic vituperation. Have at it. The point remains: It’s pretty simplistic moral calculus.
“Can anyone score me some consecrated communion wafers?” certainly sounds like proposing stealing from churches. And while you’re right that I don’t know and perhaps PZ doesn’t know whether the host was really consecrated, it’s bad enough that it was his intention and effort to obtain desecrate a consecrated host. That I don’t know for certain that he succeeded doesn’t make the possibility (likelihood?) that he did moot.
“It’s not “before your eyes.” You came here to witness it and get upset about it. PZ didn’t bring you here and neither did any of us. Most likely, Bill Donahue did.”
Interesting, considering PZ’s publicity stunt was born after he read an article about one Catholic grabbing another Catholic by the arm during a Catholic Mass in FL. I don’t think any of that happened in front of PZ’s eyes. Can you please explain to me how any of that was directed at PZ?
Apples and oranges…
P.S. Donohue published a story. There was no link to this blog from anything Donohue wrote. It turns out, Google is so user friendly that even us ignorant Catholics can find our way around the Internet.
#1269
Yeah, I obviously can’t speak for you or anyone else, but I know in my case, I tend to let emotion get the better of me and this has never really helped things. Any point I might have made is only hurt by this, and it’s easy to lose sight of the fact that you are talking to another human being.
I hate that I let myself get to this point, and while it doesn’t let me off the hook for being needlessly rude, I am glad that there are other posters here who are able to more calmly and rationally discuss things (and in a clearer, more eloquent matter, I have to admit…). So hopefully if you come back, you’ll have more luck with them, and I do appologize for getting rude. Even if we disagree, I shouldn’t have taken it to that point. It accomplished very little.
AP report on abuse in schools:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-22-1021049676_x.htm
“Maughan got in trouble twice for viewing pornography at schools in Washington state but was allowed to keep teaching. Within two years, he was convicted of raping a 14-year-old girl in his school.
Legal loopholes, fear of lawsuits and inattention all have weakened the safeguards that are supposed to protect children in school. The system fails hundreds of kids each year, an AP investigation found. It undoubtedly fails many more whose offenders go free.
State efforts to strengthen laws against sex abuse by teachers have run into opposition from school boards and teachers unions. In Congress, a measure that would train investigators and create a national registry of offenders hasn’t even gotten a hearing. Few leaders recognize — let alone attack — a national shame.”
The abuse rates were about 10% in schools and 4% in the RCC.
You will probably still use this argument because it fits your bias.
Facts are of very little use to screeching monkeys.
Holy shit?
I believe it ceases to be magic after the “accidents” of the bread have been digested. The whole accident/essence thing is ancient Greek nonsense believed by the 2nd century church, but with no meaning in terms of modern chemistry. The lifespan of a wholewheat-zombie cannibal-porn wafer is “about 15 minutes”, according to men in pointy hats.
P.P.S. The link to this site was removed from PZ’s faculty profile for violation of the university’s Code of Conduct. Is anybody here working to change the university’s Code of Conduct? If not, why not?
Sastra @#1014:
Let me say, first, that I appreciate the moderation of your response.
PZ may not have gone to a church, but his request implied that someone else might do so on his behalf. I’m not sure how “wholesale” is helpful.
Regarding the Eucharist as a symbol: I don’t ask anyone for undue deference to my beliefs, but by the same token Catholic belief is what it is, and in Catholic belief the Eucharist is not merely a symbol, it is a supernatural manifestation of the body of Jesus Christ under the appearances of bread and wine, and as such it has a significance and importance beyond any other object on earth.
I don’t ask you to modulate your attitude toward it due to my belief, but neither can you expect me to confine my attitude to the level of mere symbolism. We must both live with the fact that we share this planet with people who have radically diverging perspectives, and while strong, candid disagreements are inevitable and even healthy, we must also take some pains to accomodate one another civilly. Deliberately provocative behavior may sometimes be legitimate, but it ought to be subject to some reasonable level of restraint or moderation, especially where stakes are highest even for only one side.
Had PZ chosen to make his point by desecrating a rosary or a holy medal, I would still find that objectionable, but I wouldn’t be here having this conversation. Going after the Eucharist is simply the single most disturbing affront to Catholic religious sensibilities one could undertake. It is going for the throat, no restraint, no moderation. Which seems to be pretty much what PZ was after… and what may here seem to be delighted about. It is just plain incivil, and should be generally recognized by civil people as socially unacceptable.
You mention protesting faith beliefs being taken too seriously. You could bite pretty deeply into the semi-lapsed segment of the Catholic population — the twice-a-year “A&P Catholics,” i.e., ashes and palms — and still find an awful lot of people who would regard desecrating the Eucharist as a totally unacceptable affront. (Many “A&P Catholics” come for ashes and palms because anyone can receive them regardless of their spiritual standing, in contrast to the Eucharist which is off limits to all but Catholics in the state of grace.) Catholics as nominal as a Ted Kennedy or a John Kerry would find it and unacceptable affront. We’re not talking only about the hyper-religious here.
I posted…
“I homeschool my children to keep them AWAY from religion in the public schools. Most high school level and below teachers are very, very religious and find creative ways to push those views down their students throats.”
___________________________
Jack posted…
Funny, because religious extremists say the EXACT same thing.
Ironic.
Also, the school system IS secular, if you have not noticed.
________________________________
No, most religious people I know homeschool because public school is not religious enough for them, not because it tries to spread Atheism, or whatever silliness you’re implying. They want God stuff taught in the lessons and they can’t get that in a public school. Even if the teacher tries to sneak Christianity in, they can’t go so far as to use religious textbooks or teach daily bible-study. I know of very few Atheist teachers and thousands of Christian ones.
Your point was to try to demonstrate that the secular school system has just as many pedophiles/ephebophiles and cover ups as the Catholic church does. Funny thing is though, even IF that were true, which it isn’t…the people involved are overwhelmingly CHRISTIANS. Whether the school system is SUPPOSED to be secular is irrelevant. It would have still been Christians covering up for fellow Christians.
Show me an Atheist organization in which there is a coverup and enabling of pedophiles/ephebophiles. There’s not one.
As much as I hate the school systems, I don’t know of any massive cover-up and protection of pedophiles/ephebophiles. Are pdeos/ephebos attracted to the job? Hell ya, but if the school system finds out they call the authorities, they don’t pay off the victim and then send the teacher off to violate children in another school.
You need to stop trying to minimizing the pedophilia scandal in the Catholic church. It’s making you look like a truly evil SOB. What other organizations have or have not done about their pedos is irrelevant and in no way minimizes what the Catholic church has done.
@Jack
Holy shit, 1 out of 10 teachers are abusing kids? Sounds like made up stats to me (so does the 4%, BTW). Show me your sources.
And logic are of very little use to braindead idiots. Show me that the teacher is atheist, and then show me that there is an evil atheist organisation actively trying to protect the bastard.
Jack #1274,
Are you really that stupid or are you just being obtuse? It is not about the rates. It is about an organisation who claim to have supreme moral authority from God engaging in an international criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by shielding child-rapists in their ranks from the due process of law. They have done this as policy since 1962. The current Pope was responsible for the coordination of this policy in his previous office. That some other profession might have raped more children than priests is irrelevant: those offenders were prosecuted and were not aided by an international mafia of fellow teachers/accountants/lawyers, or whatever, while priests got “recalled to the Vatican” to shield them from prosecution or moved to South America or Africa where they continue to rape innocent children. That makes the Roman Catholic Church Hierarchy a unique international child-rape facilitation and enablement mafia of abettors. END OF STORY. That you fail to acknowledge this only reveals how deeply brainwashed into the zombie cracker cult you really are.
Code of Conduct:
The University is committed to tolerance, diversity, and respect for differences. When dealing with others, community members are expected to:
– be respectful, fair, and civil;
– avoid all forms of harassment, illegal discrimination, threats, or violence;
…
==========================
Is the university basing that on anything? Is it just? Should it be scrapped? Why or why not?
I know this will probably get ignored because it’s just one of 1200 posts, BUT:
http://www.kobrascorner.com/opine/nothing-is-sacred.php
Read it, you self-righteous unenlightened half-wits!
I recently read on article online that told about the Marquis De Sade, he had taken two of the “holy wafers” and inserted them inside of a hookers vagina, as he was having sex with said hooker, he was noted to proclaim, “if thou art god, defend thyself” (paraphrase). The Marquis De Sade lived long after this……..Sandi, where was thy “god”, and why did he not defend himself?
SDG,
PZ ‘chose’ the eucharist because that’s the object Webster Cook was attacked for ‘desecrating’.
If Webster Cook had been doing something to a rosary and been attacked for that then it’d be a rosary he’d be mentioning, and the post all that way back would’ve been – they’re just beads! instead.
That it’s more or less sacred to you isn’t the point. It’s all the same to us.
But I don’t think it’s as much of an affront as you’re making it out to be – the pope has said nothing, after all; i would have thought if it’s as bad as you’re making it out to be he’d have an obligation to say something, as he is the spiritual head of the catholic church.
IIRC, the link was removed for violation of the university’s web linking policy, rather than a CoC, which requires that sites have a disclaimer saying that UMM are not responsible for the content, etc. PZ has mentioned adding an “exit page” with a disclaimer to his UMM site to fulfil the requirement.
What, Caufield? Not going to condemn the teachers union:
“State efforts to strengthen laws against sex abuse by teachers have run into opposition from school boards and teachers unions.”
You are a hypocrite?
My point is that people in all positions fail (priests, doctors, teachers) and to single out a single group shows bias and bigotry on your part.
So, are you a hypocrite or a bigot?
You don’t hold the government monopolized, hierarchical school system to high standards?
You sound like a Dan Brown aficionado, Caufield. Must be your favorite book…
I have to go to bed, plus I’m bored with the irrational mind of Jack. Those of you with the time on your hands to argue with him, have fun, but don’t expect any results.
I admit I am wondering why he so staunchly defends the Catholic pedophiles. Y’all might want to ask him some probing questions about that.
I’ll ask one myself and leave the rest of you to discuss it.
Jack, what punishment do you think is appropriate for a pedophile?
U of M offers a degree in Religious Studies. Perhaps PZ should focus less on what takes place during a Catholic Mass in FL and focus his efforts saving countless students from the evils of this public institution, of which he is a member.
#1288:
There’s nothing wrong with Religious Studies; so long as you treat it as fiction.
A lot do. Do you mean to say that you weren’t interested in the ones that don’t?
No, they aren’t a priori assumptions, unless you take them to be.
It is in fact your assertion that these statements cannot be supported except by decree/dogma/fatwa/a priori assumptions.
Even a careless reading of Richard Carrier would show you to be on silly ground with those assertions of yours, and Carrier is not exactly breaking new ground.
Ah, forget about Jack…. being faithful means the absolute impossibility of honesty and truthfullness. Were there’s faith there simply can’t be truth.
It’s basically the same as with the “The Nazi’s were atheists” canard. If you actually look into this, you will be hard pressed to find even single nazis who were atheist. By and large nearly all Nazis were Protestants, Catholics or “pagan” godbelievers.Instead of the popularized picture of poor christians being “victimized” by the nazis, they WERE the nazis.
Which can be clearly shown, if one actually looks at historical documents, instead of just having faith in the shitty religious organisations, whose members were the criminals after all.
Take the census of middle 1939, for example.
What would you think, how large would the percentage of people be, who in a census,would state that they were members of a persecuted faith, 6 years into a bloody terror regime?
40% ? 50% ? 20 %
Well…. let’s look at the numbers. As the census of middle of 1939 shows, the percentage of people in Nazi germany of the whole population, who proclaimed themselves to be:
Protestant christians: 53,7 %
Roman Catholics: 40,3 %
Other christians: 0,5%
Jews: 0,4%
Other non-christians: 0,1%
God-believers (theistic pagans): 3,5%
Godless(Atheists/Agnostics): 1,5%
So… these numbers don’t match AT ALL with the self-proclaimed and greatly propagandized image of the christians as “persecuted victims of the third reich”.
Interesting, isn’t it?
So, if you’re a christian, maybe you might want to ask yourself, where does this lie actually come from ? And do you want to still spread it further, in the full knowledge, that it IS indeed a lie?
@Jack #1286
Are you seriously dense? The point is, your catholic church actively protected the pedophilic priests, no other organization has ever done so.
Jack,
No-one is arguing that non-priests don’t abuse children, or that other organisations haven’t covered it up. The problem is that the church is supposed to be the most moral organisation on the planet – the fact that even one child was abused brings that into doubt.
Christians claim their religion gives them superior morals; that priests – who are supposed to be even more moral than normal people – abuse children is a reflection on the failings of christianity to provide greater moral strength.
Basically, it’s proved that believing in god doesn’t make you a better person.
Jack #1286,
OK, name one teacher who was recalled to the sovereign state of teacherland to evade prosecution. Just one.
Tell me how teachers concealed documentary evidence of child-rape from the law.
Explain how the teachers’ union is international and then how your fantasy international teachers’ union has an international policy of non-cooperation with law-enforcement engaged in investigation of allegations of child-rape.
Are you an apologist fucktard or a brainwashed fucktard?
The Hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church is an international child-rape enablement mafia. This is just a fact. Deal with it.
“That it’s more or less sacred to you isn’t the point. It’s all the same to us.”
So why didn’t PZ request people to send him rosary beads then? The only reason he focused on the Eucharist was because of its significance to Catholics. So the opposite of your argument is actually what’s true. It’s NOT all the same to you.
Never mind. I forgot. It’s an article of faith for Catholics to believe that moral justification is not possible outside of Christ.
So Paolo can’t honestly have this conversation. Sorry for initially overlooking that sticking point.
I can’t believe you people are still here …
I claim responsibility for PZ Myers’ UMM directory link to this blog. I noticed that his website link was 404 (I don’t remember where it linked to). I emailed the UMM web administrator with the link to this site i.e scienceblogs.com/pharyngula and it was quickly corrected. I received a thank you from the IT person; I believe it was a woman. So, perhaps PZ Myers did not intend for the directory link to be there. BTW, I am not affiliated with UMM in anyway.
#1295:
When you said rosary beads, I suddenly pictured anal beads with a cross.
Amazing logic, I think my brain tissues just died a little.
#1295 – “So why didn’t PZ request people to send him rosary beads then?”
That’s easy.
Because Catholics weren’t sending people death threats over rosary beads. They were doing it over the wafers.
Note this, Jack:
“It is about an organisation who claim to have supreme moral authority from God engaging in an international criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by shielding child-rapists in their ranks from the due process of law.”
Note the “claim to have supreme moral authority from God” part. The rest of your argument is therefore futile in this particular context.
That people abuse their power is bad enough, I agree with you. But it is all about the fact that, of all people, those that act on the moral authority of a supreme being, are doing this. They, of all people, should be different, simply because, quite frankly, they represent God.
Whereas all the other forms of authority you mentioned (schoolboards etc.) are human, and thus relative, sources of authority, priests represent the ultimate authority.
They shouldn’t just know better, no, they should be better. Afterall, they, according to themselves, don’t just represent a higher standard; they represent the ultimate standard.
Answers to the RCC parallels of my #1294:
1) famously, Cardinal Law, and about a half-dozen others who would be arrested immediately and extradited to Ireland, the US, or Brazil if they set foot outside the State of Vatican City;
2) by keeping documents in the Papal Nuncios’ residences (in several countries) where they are beyond the reach of search warrants because the Papal Nuncio is officially the ambassador of the State of Vatican City and his residence is thus subject to extraterritoriality;
3) the Vatican returns letters bearing law-enforcement livery on the envelope unopened and blackholes police letters sent in plain envelopes;
Gotta go. Back later.
I got up to grab some water and checked this blog. I noticed Jack vanished right after I asked this direct question.
“Jack, what punishment do you think is appropriate for a pedophile?”
Coincidence? Maybe he fell asleep, or maybe he doesn’t want to answer this question.
I wanted to say that and that, when PZ wakes up, and sees, like, 2000 comments here he’s gonna have a brain aneurysm.
Also, I think one of the best things that PZ could have torched/flushed/fed to ravenous dogs in addition to the Koran and a communion wafer would be a copy of the origin of species. Because, unlike these goons, we wouldn’t flip the fuck out.
I pissed on your son.
1300 posts???
On PZ going to the movies??
U guys!!! U guys !!!
Not just any movie, it’s the movie.
#1305: “brain aneurysm”
I was about to say, “Is there any other kind?” but I checked Wikipedia and found that there are also aortic aneurysms.
Jim, #1295
Er, Jim, did you read anything in my post before that? Here it is again:
It was the eucharist that Webster Cook was attacked for taking, NOT a rosary!
Sheesh.
“Because Catholics weren’t sending people death threats over rosary beads. They were doing it over the wafers.”
And therefore the significance to Catholics was easily understood and the publicity stunt was based on that significance to Catholics. Just because you or PZ don’t believe in transubstantiation does not negate the fact that the Eucharist was chosen specifically because of its significance, as you pointed out here.
So when you say, “it’s the same to us”, that’s only a half truth because you also acknowledge the significance to Catholics and your actions are based entirely on that significance.
I just went quickly through the debate.
WOW!!!
What a debate around “just” a CRACKER!!!!!!!
I would like to thank to all the atheists, for their lion’s share in this debate and giving such an importance to, according to them, JUST a cracker.
May the living God, the “Cracker”, bless you and give you time to see
Fr. Miro
This thread is now about crackers.
I mean pie!
Fuck your God.
Miki Tracy – Look at her blog PointlessShrew’s Catholic Defense Wow! Woman’s got issues. “This is my selfish “Liberal”-minded twerp of a brother”
@Jim and Fr. Miro (if you are not the same person), we know you think it’s important. We also know it’s inane for you to impart a cracker such literal importance. Hence the argument. Really, you oversensitive religious numbrains, get a clue.
Kobra,
Can you please not post images? It pisses a lot of us off, and if PZ doesn’t ban you then he’s going to switch off the HTML codes and we’ll be stuck with very, very boring text.
I like my italics. Don’t ruin it for the rest of us. If you want to link an image, link an image – don’t post it.
A wonderful act of liberal tolerance!
Thanks for proving that we who left the double-standards of such nonsense behind shortly after university – upon, you know, growing up and stuff – were completely justified in doing so.
This is so amusing to me, it overrules any emotive response I might have.
Congrats on being the new Ward Churchill! And, like Ward, I’d imagine you’ll be dealing with a pretty fun disciplinary board. Something about hate crimes. Or do they only apply when liberals are pushing their own angle?
Time will tell.
Ummm… Eucharist Pie Best When Blessed.
#1317:
“It pisses a lot of us off”
Who exactly are you speaking for? Regardless, I won’t post any more images if it will put and end to the bitching.
“How very sad. I was holding out hope that PZ would grow up.”
“No one has benefited from this, including PZ.”
PZ hasn’t really benefitted from it, but he has demonstrated/proved that it’s just a cracker. That was the purpose of it.
“He was just wanting to express his hatred and to hurt other people as much as possible. Most decent folks try to avoid hurting others.”
He wasn’t injuring people or their property (the items involved were his own). Sometimes it’s necessary to hurt people’s feelings to prove an important point.
I would say PZ’s been extremely mature about it, he’s the one constantly pointing out that it’s just a cracker when many others have been gloating and excessively obsessive about him doing something “unholy” with it.
Hatred is the other side of the same thing as love: passion. PZ has not been passionate about this, if anything he appears to be bored, annoyed and finding the unwarranted hype and passion put into it from both sides rather tedious.
Josh Miller, you should go back to college, since you obviously don’t know what “bigot” and “hate crime” means. And saying that you grew up doesn’t make it true.
PZ hasn’t really benefitted from it, but he has demonstrated/proved that it’s just a cracker. That was the purpose of it.
Well, uhh, nobody was ever really arguing whether or not it’s “just a cracker.” ‘Accidentally’ (a philosophical term, not that I’d suspect there are many philosophers here), traditional Christians have always believed this. It looks like bread, tastes like bread, and eventually goes stale. Just like bread.
If this is what he was trying to prove, all he had to do was say it. He’s right, and we’d all agree.
But, what he’s saying is that there is no significant “substance,” (Aristotle, Aquinas), which is what traditional Christians believe. He’s denying any reality beyond the accidents. And that’s why he did what he did.
Kobra,
I don’t know about ‘bitching’; that’s a bit harsh. It pisses me off because I don’t want this to turn into MySpace; i find the simple, text-based style more suitable.
I know it pisses PZ off because he’s said so. Apologies for appearing to speak for others who I’m not 100% about the opinions of, but I’ll hazard a guess I’m not alone.
Josh Miller: PZ has used his own blog as his forum; it is unconnected to the university. They will not take any action against him whatsoever. Did Richard Dawkins find the gates to Oxford locked and his stuff in a box at the Security office after he published The God Delusion and insulted far more than one sect of one religion?
The statistics concerning sexual malpractice in schools includes sexual language [which can literally mean anything], inappropriate touching, and, get this, two individuals of legal age entering in to a relationship [obviously, teacher and pupil].
So the comparison is simply not a fair one, because the vast majority of cases in schools have nothing to do with rape and/or sexual abuse.
And as others have pointed out, there has been no edict from the central government in an attempt to cover up any abuse of power in public schools. And if there was, people would rightly be up in arms about it.
#1324:
[I know it pisses PZ off because he’s said so.]
I never saw any of his comments about this; otherwise I never would have done it.
[It pisses me off because I don’t want this to turn into MySpace; i find the simple, text-based style more suitable.]
Fair enough.
[I don’t know about ‘bitching’; that’s a bit harsh.]
Harsh is what I am.
Josh Miller – Blasphemy is a victimless crime. No God, no Goddesses, No Jesus, No Victim. I.e. victimless. Got that? Eucharist are just stale crackers that a witch doctor has danced over. They don’t have souls, ghosts, demons, or anything else other than flour, salt, and grease. No victim, no hate crime. Got it?
Now, why don’t you go out and fetch some real evidence for Jesus? Something like a prayer that will fix global warming. Or a prayer that will make a hurricane become a calm. One of these statues that has tears when you put milk into it does not count. A prayer that will make atheists just believe would do too (no cheating with torture)!
Kobra,
It was at the end of one of the other threads; i can’t remember which one.
So yeah, thanks.
Harsh can be good – where necessary. I do appreciate what you’ve brought to the discussions over the last week or so.
Wowbagger: Actual discourse on the idea of God, such as Dawkins’ book, is a far cry from an act of religious desecration meant to play at people’s emotions.
One works at getting to the bottom of the way things really are. People talk about it. They either agree or disagree.
The other plays at what people value, and is done to rile people up. It’s meant to incite an emotional response, which is a far cry from seeking any kind of objective truth about the universe.
#1328:
Well thank you. :D
I’m off to search the 1000+ post threads.
Well I read a couple of posts, but well blah blah blah as has been said before.
Anyway amongst all the wailing, gnashing of teeth and grand-standing, I’d like to say good on ya PZ for making a point.
Should send all those crackers to some hungry people.
To the Catholics, that wasn’t so bad was it? Worlds still turning, not raining hellfire nor brimstone, and we had a discourse (of sorts).
Jim,
I suspect that if you scroll up, you will find plenty of individuals who feel victimized by such an action.
Whether there is or isn’t a God is immaterial here: what is important is that people have – rightly or wrongly – assigned a high level of value in something, something that was abused for the sole purpose of making a statement.
Does anyone else sometimes get the impression that religion (and the religious) are there simply to see how many people they can get to believe that they actually believe this stuff? Like real life trolls, on a grand scale.
Seriously. Every time someone strongly religious tells me what their beliefs are, I expect someone to leap out from behind a tree with a camera saying I’ve just been caught on camera for America’s hottest new TV show or something. It just seems so *utterly insane* that it boggles my mind that anyone can even say it with a straight face, yet alone believe it.
Please tell me I’m not the only one who feels this way. I know we try to show them why what they believe is wrong, but does anyone else get even a sneaking suspicion that their leg is being pulled by a worldwide organisation?
What fatuous arrogance.
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, Mahomedans,
Jews, and idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
FOUND IT!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/rolls_eyes_its_a_cracker_peopl.php#comment-998647
The key would be to use images in moderation; which means I shouldn’t use any because I spend too much time on 4chan (not anymore, though– damned DDoS) to have a concept of “moderate.”
Josh Miller wrote:
I won’t argue that PZ isn’t trying to ‘rile people up’; he’s made it quite clear that that’s exactly what he’s trying to do. But the reason he’s doing it is the same – to get people thinking about religion and what beliefs mean.
He’s just doing it a different, more aggressive way. But it’s not that different; Dawkins could have called his book The God Belief We Don’t Agree With, couldn’t he? But he chose Delusion instead. I don’t think that was just about it fitting better on the cover.
gdlchmst, my point, which you’ve still not addressed, is simply this: we all know that accidentally, it’s bread. Every Catholic knows it, or should know it. Science tells us that it absolutely is, and we all accept that. But science cannot tell us anything about the metaphysical, and flushing a host/Koran down the toilet doesn’t, either.
So, in short: he didn’t do this just to prove that it was “a cracker.”
But it isn’t immaterial. If there isn’t a god, then the assignment of value to the cracker is wrong. In which case, pointing out that assigning nonexistent value to a cracker is daft should be encouraged.
BTW, if anyone here would like to read some excellent essays on religion and atheism, I highly recommend the works of Robert Ingersoll.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_G._Ingersoll
There are links to PDFs of much of his work at the bottom of the article. “Some Mistakes of Moses” is a classic.
-jcr
Josh Miller:
Are you arguing that because science can’t completely prove that there isn’t some magical essence behind the cracker that science can’t detect, then it should be treated as if there IS a magical essence?
Or are you arguing that since we can’t prove otherwise, we should respect people’s right to believe that it is?
So…. I wonder… if a guy had sex with the cracker, then -according to the members of the world famous “Kinderfickerschutzgemeinschaft” – he had gay sex with the son of god ?
Wow… I’m pretty sure one would’ve expected *that* to feel a lot better ;)
Which is why I’ve always had a sneaking suspicion that “metaphysical” is just a complicated way of saying “nonexistent.”
No, he did it to show that it would be idiotic to believe that there is a metaphysical god hidden in a cracker because some men in robes uttered nonsensical Latin over it.
Wowbagger: While Dawkins’ book carries a provocative title, at least it is a work of reasoning. I would hope that you’d consider Dawkins’ arguments to be grounded in reason, if you subscribe to his beliefs (as all belief finds its seeds in reason).
But Myers’ is more akin to a lot of modern art, carried out merely to shock. It starts with the emotive in an attempt to get people to think. But in doing so, it tends to piss off a lot of folks by directly attacking something they hold dear. Dawkins’ attack on religion is much more subtle – and much more civil.
This is why I suspect this will become big news, and it won’t end well for Myers.
In response to something waaaaay upthread, hmmm, what has the Minion learned from this…
1) God is either not all-knowing, all-seeing and/or all powerful, or isn’t really all that pissed off about his holy cracker being abused, because obviously, PZ is still alive.
2) Everybody loves a troll.
3) If you want to blow things way out of proportion, put them on the ‘net (all right, all right, I knew that before :P).
4) If people could work up as much passion for traffic signs and symbols as they do for religious symbols, our roads would be much safer. Alas, it seems easier for many to follow a cracker or a pice of cloth than the suggestion that yes, maybe it’s safer if you drove more slowly when passing this elementary school here…
#1344:
Even if it becomes “big news,” the only thing that could end poorly is if a gunman charges into Myers’s home. And let me make a point here: Just because a person is a liberal doesn’t mean they won’t attack a gunman with a knife to protect his family (this is assuming Myers does not own a firearm and only has kitchen cutlery).
I think you just answered your own question here. It *has* gotten people to think. Also, if you browse through PZ’s previous entries, you’ll find plenty of the “subtle” and “civil” attacks on religion. If PZ ever writes a book, civil is exactly what it’ll be.
Care to bet on it?
SDG @ #266:
Aha! This is precisely correct. SDG, I recommend you go back and read the original frackin’ cracker post (not the comments, just PZ’s original text), and re-evaluate your comment in light of what you find there. Your ability to unintentionally cut to the heart of the matter is truly uncanny (and the irony delicious!).
Buh: What I’m saying is that you cannot use natural science firmly rooted in the material to either prove or disprove the transcendent. It’s kind of like using a scale to measure velocity.
I believe you have a right to faith in either God, gods, or no god. That having been said, feel free to criticize theology or religious philosophy: I sure do. But at least approach it from the proper paradigm, and respect that a whole lot of thought has gone into theistic positions. Anthony Flew is a great example of how complicated that landscape can be, but at least he’s working within the subject’s proper boundaries.
gdlchmst: You’re free to either believe or not believe in the transcendent. And by the way, most priests use the vernacular nowadays. But I speak Latin, and I can guarantee you that it’s far from nonsensical. Anyway, to the charge that such a thing is “idiotic,” I respect your belief.
“And Jesus said: Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
“He saved others: himself he cannot save. If he be the king of Israel, let him now come down from the cross: and we will believe him.”
So what happened to the cracker? Was it fed to a seagull?
http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/07/23/catch/
(start here for the full story: http://www.jesusandmo.net/2008/07/09/wafer/ )
Michael:
Haven’t you ever noticed that your religion is full of convenient loopholes like that? So that no one can ever criticise it without there being some silly answer in the bible?
Like how Jesus refuses to perform miracles on demand, even though he did it for his mother one time, only no one else saw that.
It is the very core of “I can do this. I’m not going to show you, but just trust me, I can.” How does it make even the slightest bit of sense?
If I said God has given me the power of flight, and then took credit for all the UFO sightings in the world (hey, I was wearing a cape and it billows out), but when you ask me to prove it, I say “no”, would you believe me?
Because it’s the same thing.
Ooooh look…a mumbo jumbo ritual.
Patrick #1335
Oh my FSM…LOL
Did you just sacrifice a goat Patrick?
“What I’m saying is that you cannot use natural science firmly rooted in the material to either prove or disprove the transcendent. It’s kind of like using a scale to measure velocity.”
And what you either cannot or will not understand is that talk of the transcendent is meaningless. It is used like a get out of jail card by the religious in order to avoid dealing with the fact they have no evidence to support their beliefs.
“I believe you have a right to faith in either God, gods, or no god. That having been said, feel free to criticize theology or religious philosophy: I sure do. But at least approach it from the proper paradigm, and respect that a whole lot of thought has gone into theistic positions.”
A whole lot of thought goes into many things. That does not mean those beliefs are due any respect. In fact if what passed for theology amongst Catholics today is the result of a great deal of thought then pity might be more appropriate. If that is the best they can do, after years of thought, there is even less to their beliefs than might first appear.
The most influential atheist of the past two centuries tells us what good and evil are…
“What is good? All that enhances the feeling of power, the Will to Power, and Power itself in man. What is bad?
All that proceeds from weakness.”
The AntiChrist, sec 2, Nietsche the Syphillitic.
Maybe atheism is not as innocent as it pretends.
Patricia wrote @ #900:
“Usually, a gentleman accepts a lady’s apology without a ‘Don’t do it again’. But it may be different in your country. :)”
Who told you that I’m a gentleman?
Who has been spreading such scurrilous rumours about me? : )
Josh Miller,
I can guarantee you that more than 99% of traditional Christians don’t have a clue about Aristotelian substance concepts. They just believe in what they were forced to believe since a young child and kept repeating since then, they were even told not to attempt to think about it.
This part of the catechism sums it up nicely :
Comming back to the philosophical notion of “substance”, noone disputes that there is a connection between what this thing is and what this thing does.
We know that it is a cracker, we know also that it does make people do strange things beyond being just a mere cracker. However, how does that notion of substance in this case purport to reflect this component in reality over and above the bundle of properties that constitute its intelligible aspects ? Also, how does the connection between what this cracker is, and what it does, help to solve the degree of interdependence between a concept of substance in this case, and any teleological notion of purpose or final causation ?
I see, don’t approach it from that useless paradigm of “reality”, and respect The Courtier’s Reply.
Someon mentioned measuring velocity with a scale. That’s hopw a Pitot tube works. Nicely failed. Better analogy: Try measuring magic with a ruler.
For the love of all things sane, stop talking of the rosaries, I just found out what tractor pulling means.
Kobra, if you must post images, at least take out the advertising etc.
It’s not seemly.
maybe jews killes white scientists
Am Communist Party wrote a book, “We will never surrender” (named = but historical analysis of old austria hungary, was sold in few copies)
Completion
We can not survive without neoliberalism (am project = information, force, its own responsibility, etc).
Sex, violence and work.
Then, it is the Jewish question – many Jews in the labour movement (selling in intellectual solutions that kommunistpacket today “mass empty words without substance”).
The same mentality today = perhaps that nature is moving towards eradication. The control of some media – and similar organizations.
The Devil’s people (easy on eliminating).
Count 1 million times
What gave nybyggaranda etc
Spider, which can kill judgement
It was a jew girl who now is named Rebecca Lord
She was not horny, but well on the crafty manipulation of others (Rebecca mata hari).
She was fitted and dejected, but one day she committed suicide.
Then came a klumpedunsröv from israeli higher uni, Haifa, and would learn empiricism but then struck schizopartikeln to, and it scratched at the robber and he pulled out a hemorojd
it was shown to contain a worm that later destroyed a large part of the human world
it was late in the history books
astroillium israelis
particle =
nervous system has, of course, new data on databasförmåga (activates when the schizophrenia of us)
Tex send nano-robots and religious cultural context and play on (socialpsykologi) and then endanger humanity
threat to humanity
when you sit in a solitary confinement (by 1000 mdr who really would gone to the West-am project) and attackhund who rapes and våldsmusik
Chinese-Chinese person who he said
now gaining ground, we manchuriet
so hästarmén who was genklonad
and sold his Old Norse kýr
it turned out later that he was a little underestimated
so it impoterade a cow
(vv spread on)
It was a jew girl who now is named Rebecca Lord
She was not horny, but well on the crafty manipulation of others (Rebecca mata hari).
She was fitted and dejected, but one day she committed suicide.
Then came a klumpedunsröv from israeli higher uni, Haifa, and would learn empiricism but then struck schizopartikeln to, and it scratched at the robber and he pulled out a hemorojd
it was shown to contain a worm that later destroyed a large part of the human world
it was late in the history books
astroillium israelis
ang = heritage we should manage the cultural knowledge of tex Christians empirical work (ulf danielssons book, for example, if himlakroppars and movement in time = reading of), eng sailors and red blodslinjen and aliens tracks (from konstantin to Mayan and here and there)
Tolkiens brilliance (prekognition ww1 about what he would write)
ang psy warfare (old back)
nothing of the skringra china (put the death knell)
coasts = shut
small nanokapslar the kobröstmjölk that judgement would like to sell to us
Am Communist Party wrote a book, “We will never surrender” (named = but historical analysis of old austria hungary, was sold in few copies)
Completion
We can not survive without neoliberalism (am project = information, force, its own responsibility, etc).
Sex, violence and work.
Then, it is the Jewish question – many Jews in the labour movement (selling in intellectual solutions that kommunistpacket today “mass empty words without substance”).
The same mentality today = perhaps that nature is moving towards eradication. The control of some media – and similar organizations.
The Devil’s people (easy on eliminating).
Count 1 million times
What gave nybyggaranda etc
Spider, which can kill judgement
It was a jew girl who now is named Rebecca Lord
She was not horny, but well on the crafty manipulation of others (Rebecca mata hari).
She was fitted and dejected, but one day she committed suicide.
Then came a klumpedunsröv from israeli higher uni, Haifa, and would learn empiricism but then struck schizopartikeln to, and it scratched at the robber and he pulled out a hemorojd
it was shown to contain a worm that later destroyed a large part of the human world
it was late in the history books
astroillium israelis
particle =
nervous system has, of course, new data on databasförmåga (activates when the schizophrenia of us)
Tex send nano-robots and religious cultural context and play on (socialpsykologi) and then endanger humanity
threat to humanity
when you sit in a solitary confinement (by 1000 mdr who really would gone to the West-am project) and attackhund who rapes and våldsmusik
Chinese-Chinese person who he said
now gaining ground, we manchuriet
so hästarmén who was genklonad
and sold his Old Norse kýr
it turned out later that he was a little underestimated
so it impoterade a cow
(vv spread on)
mkt skitsex o sånt
a golem full of shit, which is then formed itself as a dildo (an Israeli invention from 1934, Hitler who bought it and then he gave the president himalaysiska a car in which there were 20 such in the tailgate)
He had, after all, a dvärgchaufför and saw a black spökfigur run around under the Pope
Wow. Someone is under the influence of some pretty powerful drug.
Josh Miller,
And do you think religion can tell us more things about the metaphysical than science ? Certainly not.
I laugh at myself.
I told Martin (some hundreds of comments ago) that Whipple invented the jet engine We had storms and I had to shut off the PC, so had no time t do a google.
Whipple =/= Whittle.
Please don’t squeeze the Charmin is anathema to squeeze the air.
Glad you could do a google on it, Martin.
@ 1362 :
Someone needs to be admitted to a psychiatric facility.
Patrick re # #1335
Please ask your cutomer service department manager to remove me from your “pray for conversion” list. I do *NOT* wish to have someone even think that I could be converted by any means, prayer btw is completely useless and there are scientific studies that actually provide empirical proof. I expect some sign, talking burning bush maybe, within the next 5 business days that my hereby official request has been acknowledged.
Sincerely,
Free thinker who intends to remain so.
Man oh man……..
Anyone who is so curious about what happened to the oh-so-famous yet MOST FLAMINGLY UNIMPORTANT (U-N-I-M-P-O-R-T-A-N-T) THINGS (T-H-I-N-G-S) obviously STILL DON’T GET IT.
Not in the slightest.
And I used to be depressed enough simply because RELIGION bent the fuck out of people’s minds.
Well me lad you had your 15 mins of fame. Now it’s Gods turn, remember pride goeth before a fall just ask your friend lucifier.
John,
now it’s God’s turn to get his 15 mins of fame ?
Christensen said:
Er, you do know that Nietzsche is talking about Christianity in that passage, right? No? Oh. Here it is in a fuller context:
He’s actually describing the hypocrisy of Christianity! Honestly, if you wish to critique atheism, be my guest. Don’t quote mine in the hope that no-one will catch you out, though.
This post is THE proof god does not exist, for if he did he would surely have ended this endless posting of attempts to speak in his name.
Good grief. Yet another 1000+ post thread. It’s just a frackin’ cracker! And not even a tasty one, if I’m to believe what I’m told.
#1365: Why? he is clearly speaking in tongues, isn’t he ? Holy, holy, praised be his name. In madnesse and mental decay from now on to the end of time.
Seriously. Either his post was generated by a clever “close to random eso-buzzword” generator or he is massively, completely, totally insane.
Lucifer means Morning Star. Who else is the Morning Star? That would be your cheeses. It’s an artifact of combining multiple religious traditions into a hodgepodged monotheistic, authoritarian hierarchy.
Oh yeah, I forgot to ask, why does your cheeses have the wrong NAME? You basically call this legendary dude “Joe messiah”, when that wasn’t what his name wass supposed to be (5 clod points if you know what his name was supposed to be).
Arno, dog is actually an enabler and only believers actually do things.
Wow!
Someone knows what God – if He did exist, of course – would SURELY do.
Wow!
Is not that someone considering himself to be God?!
Of course there is no God, if already here is a god.
1) Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips. Before delivering each milk bottle you would take a swig and place it on the doorstep. You continued to abuse you privileged access to other people’s milk for years. Then one day you decide to retire. Before you leave however, you let all of your customers know what you’ve been engaged in by letter while also leaving a picture of your cankerous mouth under each bottle. You have gleefully proclaimed your actions to all who will listen. No one was physically harmed and yet every customer (read: Catholic) affected feels deeply violated and abused. PZ Myers is effectively that milkman.
2) Suppose your are an embalmer. You are busy embalming a person for an open coffin ceremony and you decide to pilfer there lush locks of blonde hair for the construction of high class wigs (a business you have going on the side).
This person happens to be a Sikh. In order to hide the fact you have stolen their hair you then purchase a cheap synthetic wig and replace it. In the small print of the contract (which the distraught family don’t read carefully enough) you make mention of this.
After the event you then decide to publicize this gleefully on a blog. No physical harm has been done to either person and yet I would argue that this is equivalent to PZ Myer’s theft and subsequent desecration of the Eucharist publicized on his blog (of which extra web traffic generates money).
3) Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days. The material is often sheer and by its definition does not even come close to covering the knee roll.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniskirt)
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially. In both the eyes of the secular law and of my religion the assailants are still just as culpable.
So merely because Catholicism may seem like a remarkably soft target for PZ Myers (he has since been roped into desecrating the Koran) he is still as culpable as someone who chooses to attack say the more benign and watered down religions of Quakerism/Unitarian-Universalism.
4) Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
Now admittedly I did envision some quite dramatic and grotesque examples for dramatic effect but the fact remains that there have been no legitimate counterarguments. What PZ Myers is planning is beyond the pale and the po
Arno,
…or that he can’t care less about us humans speaking in his name
…or that his detectors don’t work with electronic communications
…or that he actually likes skeptics and non believers better than Christians and is quite satisfied with this, “at last, positive signs that they might finally stop bothering me with all their crazy worshipping and endless prayers”
…or that he’s not too busy with the planet earth right now, got other more important planets to look after
…or
…or
…or
Pete @1377
“Desecrating” a corpse is a crime. Abusing a cracker is not. A corpse, at one time, wss a sentient being. A cracker, not so much.
As for the rest of your recycled “blah” regarding miniskirts and rape and skin-bound books: you must be a very sick individual. Corpses, rape, human leather. Thank you for reinforcing the points so many have made.
#1360:
“Kobra, if you must post images, at least take out the advertising etc”
Yeah. Sorry about that; I tend to get lazy when I’m sleepy.
Pete, are you obtuse on purpose, or are you really that foolish? In each case you are comparing a secular crime (sneak-thivery or rape*) to a gift** from the church. You have no sense of proportion.
*I hadn’t seen it mentioned, but rape is NOT a crime of passion or arousal, it is a crime of power over a powerless victim***.
**Yes, the catechism describes it as a gift (intended to the faithful, but a gift nonetheless).
***Much as if a person in a position of authority victimised someone under their ostensible care and guidance. Please catch the hint.
Pete Rooke #763 says:
“OK, one last attempt to break through to you. Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips. Before delivering each milk bottle you would take a swig and place it on the doorstep. You continued to abuse you privileged access to other people’s milk for years. Then one day you decide to retire. Before you leave however, you let all of your customers know what you’ve been engaged in by letter while also leaving a picture of your cankerous mouth under each bottle. You have gleefully proclaimed your actions to all who will listen. No one was physically harmed and yet every customer (read: Catholic) affected feels deeply violated and abused. PZ Myers is effectively that milkman.”
Let’s turn that very same charmingly one-sided diatribe masquerading as a lofty analog around to another and more apt , shall we?
Suppose you were a milkman [descended from a long tradition of milkmen who sported] rotting teeth and cankerous lips. Before delivering each milk bottle you would take a swig and place it on the doorstep [as all of your predecessors have]. You continued to abuse you[r] privileged access to other people’s milk for [millennia]. [You NEVER] retire and you [NEVER] let all of your customers know what you’ve been engaged in by letter [OR ANY OTHER FORM OF HONEST COMMUNICATION]. You gleefully [LAUGH ON THE WAY TO THE BANK AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL THOSE WHO YOU AND YOUR KIND HOODWINKED INTO FINANCIALLY SUPPORTING YOU]. [EVERYONE IN SOCIETY] was physically harmed and yet every customer (read: Catholic) affected feels deeply [touched and spiritually moved].
Is it even remotely possible you have any idea at all how IDIOTIC you are?
Pete Rooke:
All of your analogies fall flat on their face due to one reason: All of the examples you give are actually and demonstrably what you claim them to be.
The milkman with poor oral hygeine is a milkman with poor oral hygeine. The milk is milk.
The undertaker stealing hair is an undertaker stealing hair. The undertaker is real. The hair is real hair, and nothing else.
The “sacred book” is actually made of the skin and flesh of a deceased loved one.
In all of your examples, they are demonstrably true.
The eucharist, however, is just a piece of bread. That’s all it is, by anyone’s definition. Claiming that it is the body of christ just because “somebody said so”, and also even after it has been turned into the body of christ, it still has the exact properties of the bread it was before, does not make sense.
It’s just bread.
Oh look, folks, the mini-skirt wearing long-haired blond Sikh milkman whose grandmother’s skin became bookcovers is back.
But at least approach it from the proper paradigm, and respect that a whole lot of thought has gone into theistic positions.
It doesn’t matter how much thought went into it, it’s still rubbish. All that verbal tap dancing about “accidents” and “substance” should set off your bullshit detector. It’s all an elaborate excuse to keep on committing idolatry, for no other reason than that someone with too much authority long ago insisted on a stupidly literal reading of a particular Bible verse. Yes, Virginia, it really IS just a frackin’ cracker.
Well, well, I see that the thread titled “Pete’s Increasingly Inappropriate, Off-the-Wall Analogies” has continued while I was sleeping. Good!
We know that it is a cracker, we know also that it does make people do strange things beyond being just a mere cracker.
Actually, it doesn’t make anyone do anything. Nobody is forced to make an ass of themselves at crackerpoint.
Their delusions and lack of self control makes them do these things. Their illness makes them do them.
Polishing a turd just means it’s a polished turd.
I feel very sad and hurt to read this. Many of you obviously don’t understand that to Catholics what you have done is worse than spitting on us, abusing us or violating us. We would rather you did that to us than see a host desecrated. It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.
To do this is worse for us in one sense than if you had raped and tortured our loved ones. We are called to forgive so we will but that doesn’t take away from the sheer revulsion, hurt and pain that you have caused to every Catholic who has heard of this very sad act of hatred and bigotry.
John, # 1368 : That’s what I admire so much about you bastards: not only do you presume to speak for God, you guys know exactly what Lucifer has in mind as well. FASCINATING. Have you no sense of humility? Or doesn’t the idea of the sort of personality that shall inherit the earth appeal to you?
Aron@1389:
“Many of you obviously don’t understand that to Catholics what you have done is worse than spitting on us, abusing us or violating us. We would rather you did that to us than see a host desecrated.”
Unfortunately, I do understand. And we (or i, at least) would rather your ilk had an innate sense of morality and realized that a cracker is not a victim. A human being is. Please feel free to abuse MY baked goods. Just leave my person alone. Thanks and cheers
Aron #1389, please do tell you’re a troll. You say you’d rather have your loved ones raped and tortured than have your piece of bread disrespected, and you believe this speaks ill of the atheists? Grow some perspective, man.
#1335: “…may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come…
It has been said before, that we have been forgiven before.
Take your mumbo jumbo back to your silly club. Your words have no power amongst people outside.
The whole point of this debacle really… Get a clue.
Aron, you are deranged. You would prefer to sacrifice yourself, your family, your children (Think of the children!), to save a fracker?!?!?! you and anyone who thinks that way is demented. I am glad that we wouldn’t respond in kind. “Oh, okay. Kill your child* and you can has cracker”.
Really, you need some long term counseling.
Values: ur dooing it rong
*Where did I hear that before?
IT IS NOT A GIFT. They do not hand out the Eucharist to be desecrated. You sign a social contract when you agree to accept the Eucharist. The secular crimes involved are therefore trespassing, theft and the disruption of a private event. My analogies are therefore valid.
My God, I believe, I adore, I trust and I love Thee! I beg pardon for all those that do not believe, do not adore, do not trust and do not love Thee.
O Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore Thee profoundly. I offer Thee the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifferences by which He is offended. By the infinite merits of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary I beg the conversion of poor sinners.
That’s funny.
Aron #1389
Do you have any idea how grotesque that sounds? Adoring a cracker more than your family is way past weird. The Scientologists have some strange fantasies but this matches if not surpasses any of their woo.
It’s a fracken’ cracker. No more, no less.
I guess the name “Bill Donohue” doesn’t mean anything to you.
Is it even worse than raping children and then covering up those crimes for years?
Okay, that last was a cheap shot. It’s not your fault that the Church hierarchy have gone out of their way to conceal the sordid misdeeds of a small minority of their staff.
The problem is simply this. You and your lot venerate a cracker. For those of us who don’t, cracker defilement is on the same level as closing a screen door to keep the flies and mosquitoes out of the house.
We would rather you did that to us than see a host desecrated. It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.
To do this is worse for us in one sense than if you had raped and tortured our loved ones.
And you wonder why we don’t take you seriously?
C;mon. That’s some whacked out priorities–a cracker more important than any human life.
Pitiful.
A coupon might be a more appropriate analogy. You can use it only for certain purposes. It is not redeemable for anything you would want. You must treat it like cash so desecration is illegal…
“To do this is worse for us in one sense than if you had raped and tortured our loved ones.”
And this is why we consider your belief to be so idiotic. If you really think a bit of bread, and that is all it ever is, is more important than your family then your moral compass is so screwed it probably can never be repaired.
And as for your faux claims of being hurt, have you once stopped to consider the harm you do in opposing the use of condoms thus helping spread HIV ? Or your attempts to prevent women from having abortions carried out by competent professions rather than unqualified backstreet abortionists ? Or your attempts to deny gays the right to marry ? Cut the fake tears, we do not believe you. If you really cared about people you not oppose gay marriage, condom use and abortions. Opposing those things does real harm, with people ending up dead as a result.
So go away, stop your church opposing those things, and then come back to us.
And in the meantime, stop fucking sniffling.
#1395:
See this: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/fyi.php#comment-980351
@negentropyeater: OK, you have me convinced. Indeed it is far more likely he left us alone to squable while he watches a far more interesting show on another planet :-)
Go read the catechism, Petty Pete. The eucharist is a gift. As I stated, it is intended for believers.
Fail 1
Really, you actually signed a contract? Someone pulled a fast one on you, pally-o. Unless you mean an implied social contract, which would be unenforceable.
Fail 2
No trespassing occurs if it isn’t posted or no warning provided.
Fail 3
If nobody observes the so-called fraud, no disruption occurs. If someone starts making a ruckus, a la physically assaulting someone, then you have thrown the “Mass” into confusion, i.e. caused a disruption.
Fail 4
The best you can get, assuming the Ninja Nuns actually catch someone swiping one, is fraud to obtain an item of nil secular value, which won’t be prosecuted. DAs have to be practical. Keep the issue in your church, and there’s no problem with your silly rituals. Bring it into the real world, and you smack into a wall of real. That’s where this train started.
Well played, Pete. 4 fails in one short post. Nice fail density.
It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.
This makes this entire drama worthwhile – highlighting how fanatical Catholics love a piece of bread more than their own family. This is how religion rots brains.
allonym @#1348:
Um. I was already familiar with PZ’s “frackin’ [sic] cracker” post when I wrote, so I’m not sure what reevaluation you anticipate, or what irony you perceive.
I’ve heard this claim from both sides of the debate, but I have yet to be convinced that there is any form of theft, crime (seriously, tresspassing? In a church. During mass. Catholics really *are* extremely xenophobic, eh) or disruption taking place if someone takes a cracker and leaves.
And ignoring that, PZ didn’t take a cracker from anywhere. He was sent them. Your analogies *still* fall down. Coming from your own angle, a better analogy would be:
1) The undertaker cuts off the hair
2) The undertaker makes it into a wig
3) The undertaker sells the wig to an unknowing third party
4) The third party burns it because they decide they don’t like it after all
And *that* analogy only holds up if you believe that not immediately eating a eucharist during the mass constitutes theft. I’m fairly confident that it isn’t, and that the law supports me in that.
Matt makes an excellent point. No one doubts that huge amounts of thought have gone into the development of theology and religion. The magnitude of the effort is astonishing, as we can see by browsing the religion section of any bookstore or library. But you can see a similar effort if you check out the offerings in astrology. The amount of thought lavished on an endeavor does not give any intrinsic truth value of that effort.
I’ve said it before: Theological debates are like arguments over which Star Trek captain is really better, Kirk or Picard. A whole lot of thought has gone into that discussion, and it rages on. Yet the truth is elusive, despite many attempts to arrive at it. We will never know for certain whether the superior captain is Kirk or Picard.
Besides, it’s probably Janeway.
“The secular crimes involved are therefore trespassing, theft and the disruption of a private event. My analogies are therefore valid.”
Trespassing is a civil, not criminal offence.
“A coupon might be a more appropriate analogy. You can use it only for certain purposes. It is not redeemable for anything you would want. You must treat it like cash so desecration is illegal…”
Great logic there.
A coupon for 50 cents off a box of crackers CANNOT be used to get $5 off a case of beer. Therefore, tearing the coupon in half is a crime.
Jesus Fucking Cracker, you people are beautiful proof that religion destroys the capacity for rational thought.
Josh Miller said:
Buh: What I’m saying is that you cannot use natural science firmly rooted in the material to either prove or disprove the transcendent. It’s kind of like using a scale to measure velocity.
It’s also like using a ruler to measure the height of invisible dragons.
AJ Milne @#184:
No. I can also argue that (a) Myers should not have solicited consecrated hosts, (b) the individual who sent this allegedly consecrated host to Myers should not have done so, and (c) consecrated hosts removed from Catholic churches ought to be made available to those who will return them to be consumed or disposed of properly.
# 1389
“It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.”
This is the most scary thing I’ve read in a long time.
Zeno:
It’s obviously Sisko. Picard, Kirk and Janeway are off galavanting around the galaxy getting into all kinds of exciting encounters, but captains like Sisko are the ones who really keep Starfleet (and the Federation) in running order. I’d like to see Picard or Kirk handle as much vital paperwork in a week as Sisko does every day.
You have abused my person and the persons of all 1 billion Catholics. Abuse is not only physically- you have emotionally and spiritually abused us. You have made me feel sick to my stomach by this act of the theft and desecration of Jesus.This is the kind of thing satanic cults do- the professor has now put himself on a level with that. By the way many Catholics have died as martyrs rather than desecrate a host. You may not believe as Catholics do but at least respect that what you have done is to us the crime of all crimes – and whatever you say will not change how we feel at reading of this terrible thing. I personally would prefer to be shot in the head than watch the desecration of Jesus in the Host.
I personally would prefer to be shot in the head than watch the desecration of Jesus in the Host.
sad and pathetic. sad and pathetic.
As long as you might want to make the Church’s rap sheet, the Church has a pretty long list of positive contributions and accomplishments as well — hospitals, education, charities, culture, etc. – SDG
Even if, over time, the total balance is impossible to calculate (and by the way, I notice you slide smoothly from the RCC to “Christianity” when mentioning the abolition of slavery), none of the current or past positive contributions can justify the gross crimes of the Church hierarchy today – the lies about AIDS and condoms, the shielding of pedophile priests, the attacks on women and gays, the attempt to impose Catholic moral views on everyone else.
And while you’re right that I don’t know and perhaps PZ doesn’t know whether the host was really consecrated, it’s bad enough that it was his intention and effort to obtain desecrate a consecrated host. That I don’t know for certain that he succeeded doesn’t make the possibility (likelihood?) that he did moot. – SDG
My point is that whether he has done so or not makes absolutely no difference. It’s quite clear from many comments on this thread and others that “consecrated hosts” go AWOL all the time, without any concern from the Church hierarchy or Catholics generally, which shows that the current outrage is, as I said, confected.
Aron, thank you for your posts, please keep them up.
You are the final proof that this exercise was not only valid but badly needed.
mayhempix @##458:
I have never argued here for anyone going out of their way to respect other people’s beliefs and sensibilities. I’m simply asking that we not go out of our way to specifically trample other peoples’ sensibilities.
If you can’t see the difference between (1) eating a hamburger irrespective of Hindu sensibilities and (2) deliberately spiting Catholics by stealing their most sacred object out of their church and desecrating it precisely in order to spite their objections, you can continue to pretend that they’re the same. I can’t help you.
It is not a symbol or a religious object it is the one we love more than our own mothers and fathers, more than our children.
Like I said, IDOLATRY. It’s because of shit like this that some Protestant fundy types regard Catholics as not being real Christians. It’s why non-believers think religion makes you insane. Your church has created and encouraged an unhealthy obsession. They set you up to be hurt by stupid, meaningless events like someone walking out of a church with a communion wafer.
1. You’re a piece of trash.
2. Dark Knight – Rachel gets blown up, Harvey Dent becomes Two Face and then falls & dies at the end, and Batman goes on with life.
I’m calling Poe on Aron.
1. You’re a piece of trash.
2. Dark Knight – Rachel gets blown up, Harvey Dent becomes Two Face and then falls & dies at the end, and Batman goes on with life.
#1414: I actually feel sorry for you.
Not because PZ “violated” your holy wafer, but because you are very clearly completely divorced from reality and in need of professional psychological help.
SDG:
Ad-nauseam, at that.
Got anything new to say?
There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for another…
To allow oneself to be crucified for His creations’ redemption…
To allow Himself, under the appearance of bread, to be crucified again and again by His created being.
You. He still loves you. And me. And because of this, I pray for you and all those who just don’t understand the good and the beauty and the peace of the One True God in 3 persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
May He bless you and enlighten you, and give you the knowledge that you seek.
Second the motion.
@Mark AKA “PZ is a fag”: You’re not the brightest guy around, huh? Double posting, changing your nick, an then…wasting time writing something stupid? Wow, you spoiled bits of the movie?! That’s terrible! I mean, by 8:37 AM I’d think he saw the fucking thing already.
PS: GO PZ! Show us the results now! I’m dying to know here!
Aron says he’s very sad and hurt, adding, “Many of you obviously don’t understand that to Catholics what you have done is worse than spitting on us, abusing us or violating us.”
Excuse me, I was raised as a Roman Catholic, and I understand PERFECTLY what it means to be one. You are utterly wrong (or utterly out of your mind) to suggest that any desecration of any kind can possibly be performed upon a thin disk of bread, whether it is ACTUALLY the body of Christ or merely SYMBOLICALLY represents the body of Christ.
If you harbor the former notion, Christ would hardly mind that a particular student ran off with Him, or any of the other countless similar instances. Nor, for that matter, would Christ mind – if HE is as full of forgiveness as he is portrayed – that a substantial proportion of Eucharist wafers “suffer” randomly ignominious ends as a consequence of ordinary priestly (that is, human) incompetence – say, with consecrated hosts getting inadvertantly thrown out with the trash. One would think that a Catholic would consider Christ to be bigger than that – you know, that guy that is constantly described as being the very source of love and tolerance and forgiveness? Instead of the very picture of a near-psychopathic selfish narcissist who enjoys nothing more than being properly worshiped?
But, if you insist on believing the superstition that He is “still alive”, yet admit that the whole idea of the ritual is simply and entirely SYMBOLIC in nature (as Christ Himself very well could have meant it the first time around – nobody can demonstrate otherwise), then you cannot support the idea that Christ would at all be bothered by anyone who runs off with a wafer, OR ANYBODY WHO DEFENDS SAID TRESSPASSOR OVER A MERE SYMBOL.
Get it? Don’t you have any wits of your own? Or is having an operative mental capacity a sacriledge too?
By the way many Catholics have died as martyrs rather than desecrate a host.
I am irresistably reminded of the poem Casabianca, by British poet Felicia Dorothea Hemans, first published in the Monthly Magazine for August 1826:
The boy stood on the burning deck
Whence all but he had fled;
The flame that lit the battle’s wreck
Shone round him o’er the dead.
Yet beautiful and bright he stood,
As born to rule the storm;
A creature of heroic blood,
A proud, though child-like form.
The flames rolled on-he would not go
Without his Father’s word;
That father, faint in death below,
His voice no longer heard.
He called aloud-‘say, Father, say
If yet my task is done?’
He knew not that the chieftain lay
Unconscious of his son.
‘Speak, father!’ once again he cried,
‘If I may yet be gone!’
And but the booming shots replied,
And fast the flames rolled on.
Upon his brow he felt their breath,
And in his waving hair,
And looked from that lone post of death
In still yet brave despair.
And shouted but once more aloud,
‘My father! must I stay?’
While o’er him fast, through sail and shroud,
The wreathing fires made way.
They wrapt the ship in splendour wild,
They caught the flag on high,
And streamed above the gallant child,
Like banners in the sky.
There came a burst of thunder sound-
The boy-oh! where was he?
Ask of the winds that far around
With fragments strewed the sea!-
With mast, and helm, and pennon fair,
That well had borne their part-
But the noblest thing which perished there
Was that young faithful heart.
…and Spike Milligan’s shortened and improved version:
The boy stood on the burning deck
Whence all but he had fled;
Twit.
I think it’s being pretty generous to call those things crackers. I attended a catholic mass with a church group once. I was pretty bored and busy day dreaming about naked girls and suddenly i was handed this little thin circular thing. I couldn’t figure out what the hell it was. It looked like it might’ve been styrofoam or something similar. I looked around but i didn’t see that anyone else had one. It took me awhile but i finally figured out i was supposed to eat the damn thing.
Skimming through this thread, (noticed the similar posts on other cracker threads as well) I caught a number of posts spouting the standard fire and brimstone fundie evangelical rhetoric.
Paraphrasing
“u iz all gunna to bern in hell” ect.
Thing is, generally, the True Liars For Jesus (TM) crowd don’t even consider Catholics to be *True Christians* (TM)
Smells like a bit of hypocritical bandwagon jumping in the air. Just the usual then.
So this is what it’s like in an atheist fundamentalist camp :)
Susan, you are batty. Communion is not re-crucifying.
The One True Bob
@Susan: Yea, he loves you so muuuuuuuuch. Read the bible you ignorant! Your imaginary God’s a bloody maniac! If that’s love, I think we’re in deep shit emotionally!
…woah, 1400 comments?
@MAJeff reg.1415:
“I personally would prefer to be shot in the head than watch the desecration of Jesus in the Host.”
“sad and pathetic. sad and pathetic.”
Whats sad and pathetic with that? It’s not as if a headshot is likely to do much damage on Aron. Probably no effect at all.
So, Susan, you’ve done something so horrible, you are so terrible, that another human had to be murdered? And the God that required that murder loves you?
Wow.
Why is it that we get the religious in here telling us we should respect the beliefs of Catholics and we also get them telling us that they are going to be praying for us.
Has it not occurred to them that maybe an atheist does not want to be prayed for, and finds the idea offensive ?
“The boy stood on the burning deck
Whence all but he had fled…”
OOh– “Picnic at Hanging Rock” moment. Sorry, love the film and cannot hear that poem without associating the two. Now THAT was a transcendent experience. Poor Sarah **sigh**.
I think that we, those of us who see this as a sacrilege, should simply pray that God opens the minds of all those who are so ignorant in the knowledge of our religions.
We should also pray for Mr Myers, that he can come to terms with his hostility towards religions. Perhaps even for his conversion.
I think that we, those of us who see this as a sacrilege, should simply pray that God opens the minds of all those who are so ignorant in the knowledge of our religions.
We should also pray for Mr Myers, that he can come to terms with his hostility towards religions. Perhaps even for his conversion.
That’s good. Just keep talking to yourselves.
I remember being an alter boy when I was younger, and having to clean up the church after mass. People dropped the Eucharist all the time, stepped on it (accidentally), smeared it on the floor, some people would leave them in the pew’s, uneaten, etc.
…you know what the priest told us to do with them? Throw them out!
That’s right, we threw them out. No ceremony was done, we were not forced to scrape the bits off the floor and eat them, none of that, we threw them the fuck in the garbage, and out to the curb, to be compacted by a standard garbage truck, and brought to the dump to rot.
I’m sure this is pretty standard practice in most churches.
I’m not a Catholic anymore, obviously, but all you “offended” Catholic’s need to get over yourselves, and this, and stop feigning your pathetic revulsion to something akin to what happens everyday at your own churches.
Assistance with a kidnapping project.
Hello from Ireland
I run a team of bank robbers but recently we have had to look for a new market thanks to changes in bank security.
One of the lads heard about a recent controversy in America where some guy kidnapped someone from a Catholic church.
We don’t have all the exact detalils so maybe some of you could help us out. We heard the guy’s house was under siege and they even threatened to kill him.
We tried a few religious fourms but they banned us.
As we understand it after a magic ceremony the leader of the religion is turned into a little bit of roundy bread. If this is true it would be a very handy scenario for people in the kidnap business as we would not have to dig a complicated bunker in the mountains or even feed the hostage.
According to our information the mark is two thousand years old so even if he only saved a little each week that would make him very rich so we reckon they’d pay a very big ransom for him. Would that be correct?
On a historical note one of the lads wants to know if it’s true that there was a tribe of little white roundy people living in the desert two thousand years ago or is that a joke?
We’ve also been told that after the magic the magican eats the zombie and drinks it’s blood? That’s pretty grisly and I’m not lettin’ the lads know about it as they are not in that league when it comes to violence. Bottler swallowed a fly once but that was by accident.
These guys sound like a right bunch of nutters and Whacker thinks it might be tough trying to negotiate with a gang of cannibals.
Would they pay a ransom if they’re just going to eat the guy when they get him home?
Thanks
Fingers Mahoney
Susan #1425
Don’t you mean…
“One True God in 4 persons, Father, Son, Holy Spirit and Cracker.”?
@Paolo: God is not spectacular?
Hallelujah, my eyes are opened. He would never do anything spectacular like flood the world, turn a river to blood, send angels to kill people, part the sea…
Or, dare I say it, he’d never make a dead guy walk and push away a rock that takes several people to move.
Aron, #1414:
Historically, it was Jews who were accused of ‘stealing’ ‘hosts’, and ‘torturing’ them. These lies were used to incite pogroms in which many Jews were murdered.
The only part of this charade that is new is the targets. Today your targets are Professor Myers and ‘satanic cults’ .
Remember folks, God will not be mocked. Have your fun and laughs now. You’ll need them in the end. “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”
What goes around comes around. I’ll pray for your son.
As a person of Jewish background this dehumanising and making out of Catholics because of their faith, as inferior in intelligence reminds me of the nazis. Like many Catholics I am university educated and i am also a teacher. It is the heights of arrogance to consider the bulk of the world’s population who believe in God as somehow mentally inferior to oneself. i certainly would not say that because someone doesn’t believe in God that they are mentally inferior. Also the Catholic Church does not teach that atheists go to hell. People who go to hell are those who choose to by choosing evil with a free and knowing conscience. A sincere and good Athiest may get a surprise one day when he awakes in God’s Kingdom, that is not for us to judge but for God who is loving and merciful to all- this is what Catholics believe not the caricature that you seem to get out of some kind of anti-catholic comic book. Again this reminds me of the anti-semitic literature that the Jewish people have suffered from and still do.
I have taught people of all beliefs including Buddhists. I do not believe in the Buddhist beliefs on many things but I would certainly not hurt these beautiful people by destroying one of their religious objects. And what has been done to us Catholics by this desecration is far worse than just destoying a religious object like the Rosary beads.
Remember folks, God will not be mocked. Have your fun and laughs now. You’ll need them in the end. “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.”
Ah, yes. The loving god who tortures eternally for being offended.
Congratulations, Prof. Myers! You’ve killed God, all on your own. Not a bad for a college professor, worthy of your resume. Take pride in your courageous step! What’s the next step, kicking sand in the face of a 10 year old?
Ya gotta love professors with all the emotional maturity of an 8th grader. Sheesh.
Fexbolt: given that you are someone who proclaims residence in Ireland, a land where Catholicism defines the country and is at its very essence or core nature, I’m disappointed in you. Just goes to show that atheism is unfortunately becoming even more pervasive in this world.
I think that we, those of us who see this as a sacrilege, should simply pray that God opens the minds of all those who are so ignorant in the knowledge of our religions.
I think you should be praying that God will remove the lumberyard from your own eyes.
God loves you anyway, and there’s not a thing you can do about it.
That’s life.
Ken #1439
You would be surprised at how many here have an in depth knowledge of your religion Ken.
One of the fastest routes to atheism is to actually objectively read the bible. You should try that sometime without all the brainwashing from your church’s salesmen.
Even on a secular level, we can all relate to the need for reminders of the things not readily available to us. To have what we hold sacred close to us whether it is the faint smell of your wife’s perfume on you when you are away at work; or the picture of a deceased child; the 1st place medal for that 8th grade science project. These are personal things that have no meaning to anyone else. Yet most can respect that, but we cannot respect this because it is of “God”? The bias shows all too well that there are two types of people, those who are afraid to lose God, and those who are afraid that they might find Him.
Aron @ #1446@ I do not believe in the Buddhist beliefs on many things
Why not?
Why is your cult’s beliefs any more plausible that Buddhisms. In it’s original form – Buddhism is almost reasonable. And they certainly don’t claim that Siddhartha manifests himself in wafers when a magic ceremony is carried out.
And for all of those praying for us – try thinking instead, it’s not hard and will achieve more.
I dunno, he seems to have put up with it for quite a bit now.
It seems like my judgement of his attitude is more accurate than yours.
Shocking.
Oh PZ, you’re so evil for not giving in to irrational stupidity. So, so evil.
Re: #1146
Christians aren’t mentally inferior, they just choose to be deluded. I know — I used to be one.
In regard to Buddhism: Master Lin Chi said, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill the Buddha.”
Hmmm… nothing sacred indeed. Don’t drag Buddhism into Crackergate. They didn’t go psycho over a kid with a mala (Google it). Holy icon = idolatry
Thanks for the perspective. Your god is as relevant to humanity as a single 10 year old. A 10 year old cracker, that is.
So glad you adrift sycophants found some brave fool with a gift for gab to rally around. Sorry, you have to waste your precious few years of existence berating the sacred beliefs of others. Sorry you have to find the hypocrites and liars amongst the Christian faithful to parade around as though that is what made Jesus’ Church so magnanimous and caring. Sorry you cannot realize that charity and mercy are the main tenets of the Catholic / Christian faith you seek to destroy. And to PZ Meyers — sorry you are not given the opportunity to sit in on an exorcism conducted by a Catholic priest. I assure you, you would go blanch in the presence of God’s spiritual and immortal enemy. Hell is real, but so is purgatory, praise God’s mercy. I suppose the visionary Pachi of Ecuador was right when she told others what the Virgin Mary said to her —- “Most only come to know God on bended knees.”
Michael 1444: PZ knew exactly what he did. He mucked around with a disk of wheat that has no significance or power, now matter what words are mumbled over it.
Michael #1444:
Who’s doing the “mocking” here? Aren’t those who insist they know His Intentions, like you, MOCKING Him?
I enthusiastically endorse this point of view. I am aware that some nonbelievers find it irksome that others promise to pray for them (pace Penfold), but I think those who believe in the power of prayer should put their knees where their mouths are. Pray away!
P.S.: Ken might have noticed that many of the people who are critical of the cracker cult used to belong to it. One thing I am not is ignorant of Catholicism.
Peter Rooke: I’m Irish and an atheist too.
Catholicism does not define our country any more. We got sick of hypocritical, child-abusing priests telling us how to vote, what to think and what to do in our bedrooms.
I’m deeply sorry that our liberation from theocratic tyranny disappoints you so.
Yes, yes we do. I have something that I consider Pascal’s Wager, but combined with ethical judgments.
God doesn’t exist: No harm, no foul
God exists and judges based on actions: No harm, no foul
God Exists and requires blind obeisance and worship: He’s an asshole. I don’t want a damn thing to do with him. Judge not lest ye be judged works both ways. He judges me, I’m not afraid to judge him.
“God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
These comments prove it!
LOL. So this is what a professor at a 4th tier university has to do to get noticed. You weren’t even that original in your methods of trying to shock people; it comes across pathetic, the desperation of a middle aged man trying to get the attention that he can’t get from his wife or students. I guess that is why you are in Morris instead of New Haven.
The God of the Bible is a 10 year old kid at the beach? I thought she liked to play Skee-Ball on the boardwalk!
You must truly believe that it is the Body and Blood of Christ for it to be that important for you to desecrate it.
Larry @#1466
It was stated about a thousand posts ago that UM Morris is a 3rd tier university. If you are going to make the outrageous claim that it is a 4th tier university, you’re going to have to back that up with some facts.
My grandfather’s version of the same poem:
The boy stood on the burning deck
His feet were full of blisters
The flames rose up and burnt his clothes
So he had to wear his sisters
wrong, Freddy.
There are 10 types of people. Those who understand binary and those who do not.
re: #1466…
Forgive them Tentacled One, for they know not the context of the actions they condemn. Larry is just the latest in a long line of people who can’t see past the cracker. Do any of you know why PZ made this an issue?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php
I wish people were this concerned with the well-being and ethical treatment of others. Not fretting over baked goods.
So this is what a professor at a 4th tier university has to do to get noticed.
No, getting booted out of a movie got him noticed. :-D This is what it took to get him noticed by wafer idolators.
New CHRISTOCRACKERS – they’re desecratingly delicious!
…
..
.
lalaparousia (#1445) offered,
You wouldn’t have to if you didn’t have a cruel belief system (sins of the father is what you were going for, right?)
The delusion. It burns.
Heh.
Saying that desecrating a Host ‘proves’ that God is not present is nonsense.
Let me take another example:
Scientists tell us that everything is made out of atoms.
Stones are made out of atoms.
Splitting an atom releases a vast amount of energy.
Therefore, I can prove that scientists are wrong, and atoms don’t really exist: I hit a stone many times with a hammer, and there was no nuclear explosion, therefore I can’t have split any atoms, because they don’t exist!
Nonsense, just because a thing’s essence doesn’t manifest itself in the silly way we choose to mis-test it, doesn’t mean the thing doesn’t really have that essence.
Rather than doing something stupid that he chooses to the host, I suggest Mr Myers tries to repent and spend some time in front of the host, adoring God, and see what effect it has on his soul. That’s proving the thing with a test worthy of the essence of the thing itself.
Dr. Myers,
I write to express my disappointment that you chose to carry through on your threat. I have been fortunate over my lifetime to have some very outstanding teachers both at the high school level and in college. I have even kept contact with some of these gentlemen who by all accounts helped to form me as a man. They were/are men that I look up to as my seniors and whose opinions I respect even in disagreement as they came in all different political persuasions and creeds.
What I truly miss sometimes from the collegiate environment was the ability to discuss ideas and differ on opinions like gentleman and at the end of the day simply disagree with a friendly parting of the ways. Yes, I do have some opportunities for such discourse nowadays but such instances seem to be growing rarer in the current environment. When I first came across your blog some time ago and before this incident, your picture and some of your postings reminded me of that time as an undergrad back on campus when discussion was lively but respect for your fellow man was even livelier. Sadly, your actions now make me see you much differently and certainly not with the same esteem I had for my professors “back in the day.” In truth, you now come across as nothing more than a common bigot.
Indeed, how disappointing.
Very respectfully,
J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy
Ken #1437: You have a mighty obnoxious tradition there, friend. Not only do you discount the knowledge that outsiders have of your religion (even though the vast majority of them were RAISED in it) you also seem to think that dissent is synonymous with hostility.
Have you no shame or no brains? Which is it? Or is that too hostile a question for you?
All the same, by all means, keep up with your prayers, and be sure to spend extra time at it. We really need your help. Knock yourself out.
Aaargh. Too many comments. Go here if you must.
Why are you Catholics in such a rush to demonstrate the stupidity of your religious beliefs for me?