The Family Research Council asks, “Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?
97% of the clueless ideologues at the Patriarchy Research Council think so.
Pharyngula
Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
Down to 91% already!
Uh oh, this is going to be a tough one to put down! Vote, and keep voting!
Down to 89% (I feel dirty for having visited that website).
people who voted ‘A’ should have voted ‘C’
83% now.
I certainly hope no-one here is going to be clearly their cookies and voting again.
That would be a horribly dishonest thing to do, which would skewer this scientifically accurate poll.
It’s too bad mucking up their poll won’t fix their ahistorical idiocy.
Y 80%
N 19%
NMI 1%
To make it simpler, they should really just combine “Yes” and “Need More Information.”
Ramases-
I know I would never do that. You’re right. That would be horribly dishonest.
Curse you, Frank @ #4!
Odonata,
And besides, we know the other side would never cheat. They are christians, after all.
Yes: 55%
No: 44%
Need more information: 1%
This is the kind of poll I love to help skew. I am so sick of all this Christian nation garbage!
Let’s see… genocide, slavery, subjugation of women. I think the clueless ideologues may be right on this one.
And we take the lead!
A. Yes: 41%
B. No: 56%
C. Need more information : 3%
Now that did not take long did it/
Sure would be nice if they’d show the number of times one or the other has been chosen. I know it’s a lot more than 100 right now (one vote doesn’t change the percentage; it takes 4 or 5 at this point–or so a rumor has it), but that’s about all I can tell.
Current Results:
A. Yes: 40%
B. No: 58%
C. Need more information : 3%
Just as an aside, the numbers do not add to 100%.
Only 36 % yes now
No, 66% Can,t vote anymore, the curs!
63% no
I thought that America was two continents, not a nation, anyway?
Actually, watching this poll change is almost as much fun as watching the Williams sisters Wimbelton tennis final that I’m watching right now.
Yes: 28%
No: 70%
Info: 2%
Properly Skewed, screwed and skewered.
Current Results:
A. Yes: 25%
B. No: 73%
C. Need more information : 2%
We’re winning with 77% now. Go crashers!
Polls cannot resist go squid the tentacles the tentacles.
If that made sense report yourself to the nearest FEMA camp.
“Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?”
This poll is flawed.
“Christian principles” is an oxymoron.
Where’s the “of course not, don’t be stupid” option?
82% No
17% Yes
1% Need more info
Seems like the real world caught up to that poll.
Not a complete oxymoron, Victoria Principle is a christian isn’t she? The US could be founded on her deliciously 80’s shoulderpads, they’re obviously big enough
Oh PZ – how can you even look at websites like that – I’m so grossed out by even the FONT
85% no. We got this one.
From a somewhat-related story about the Jefferson Bible.
Current Results:
A. Yes: 13%
B. No: 86%
C. Need more information : 1%
Wow that was fast!
Yes 12%
No 87%
Like shooting slow, stupid, predictable fish in a barrel.
Wow that was easy. A little too easy…
“Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?”
I guess the folks at DI must be helping to weigh in on that poll on the “No” side.
This up yesterday:
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/07/thomas_jefferson_intelligent_d.html
“As I document in my book ‘The Politics of Revelation’ and Reason, Jefferson was hostile toward traditional Christianity and lashed out in private at those who believed in the divinity of Jesus. He even created his own redacted version of the New Testament from which he cut out the miracles. So he certainly can’t be accused of trying to promote ‘Christian fundamentalism.'”
So IF the author of our constitution “was hostile towards traditional Christianty”; and
IF the constitution can be said to be a major document that Arerica as a nation was founded upon;
THEN (Q.E.D. – I just love using Q. E. D), the answers must be “No” to the above question.
I’m off to cast my vote.
I didn’t really need to convince myself, but it’s always nice to have some “proof” to back you up. Of couse, my logical conclusion is arguably completely wrong based on whether my two premises are in fact correct.
Oh, wait, no, that’s not true. My mistake. I thought the question was “*Was* America, as a nation, founded upon Christian principles?”.
No, it asked whether I “believed” ir was or not. I can believe something without requiring proof because I am a person of Faith.
I’m off to cast my vote.
But wait, IF people can believe something without requiring proof, THEN this opinion poll is completely useless, at least in realms of our lives that are supposed to deal with facts, not beliefs, like science or law.
(I should probably apologize to you for “practicing” on you. I am trying to get my logical argument ducks all in a row for what I know will be the return of the “Academic Freedom” bill in Florida, whenever the next legislative session begins.)
I’m off to cast my vote. (OK, I’m just off!)
That’s interesting… Its known that the US was founded under secular principles. Once the stories stop making sense, and the books are no longer useful, they try to get their facts by means of democracy. A Pharmacology teacher I know gave an example by using the democratic method to calculate the number of milliliters in a liter… he got an average of 980. Seeking justification in numbers is a bad idea, specially when those masses you intend to consult are wrong to begin with. Great work crashing the poll!
Eww… I always knew that there was something slimy about James Spann (the latest Champion of faith, family and freedom!). He’s also (some champion) our local tv weatherman. Seriously. That’s evidently the best these folks can pull out.
#37, It’s not particularly accurate to call Jefferson the author of the constitution. If any individual were deserving of that title it would be Madison. His views of secularism were yet more strict than Jefferson’s, and he held an extremely dim view of the clergy, but I don’t know his view on the divinity of Jesus.
I hate the FRC, and its so nice to see them fall in a predictable fashion to reason (and the fact that geeks like to crash their parties and we have better polls in general.) Crash that, FRC!
If you remove cookies from frc.org after voting, its like you’ve gone back in time, just before you voted.
Use this tip wisely, my children, and only for good. Never for evil.
Oooh! I did a post on this yesterday. (not the poll … the subject) and I got my very first person come and call me insane!
Does that mean “I done good” ?
89% No
10% Yes
1% NMI
Job done
No 89%
PWN3D!!!!11
Promise keeper tards.
We’ve got them nine to one!
Not a complete oxymoron, Victoria Principle is a christian isn’t she?
That might work, if her name weren’t Victoria Principal. :)
I think it was founded upon some Christian principles, but Family Research Council is dumb enough to think that “Christian” have the monopoly on them. They’re Christian principles, but they’tre everybody else’s principles too. Duh!
Weird. The FRC is one of those big newsworthy politically influential organizations, and we’re able to outswarm their readership with just a casual gesture in their direction.
I guess Fox News better start bringing me in to do interviews instead of the usual right-wing think-tank suspects.
It’s at 90% NO when I voted.
I expect Fundicrat heads to explode when they go to their website! Fun for all
97% of the clueless ideologues at the Patriarchy Research Council think so.
In the words of Jacques Clouseau…
“Nit iny more….”
What I’d enjoy is seeing where they post their comments. Do they have a forum somewhere, or a general comments section on the site? I’d love to see them freaking out and then getting ticked off as they realize what’s happening.
It would be interesting to know if they comment on the poll afterwards. I haven’t seen followup comments by the makers of any of these polls.
From their point of view, I’m sure there’s a result they’re expecting, and when things don’t go their way with the broader public, I doubt they use that information as a way to alter their views. Instead, I’m sure they instantly think dishonest “outsiders” flocked in and ruined their poll.
In fact, maybe the whole rationale for polls like this is to make Christians feel threatened. “See? See? The evil, hateful atheists attack every honest effort we make to gauge the sentiments of good Christian Americans.”
A: 8%
B: 91%
C: 1%
That was quick!
Of course, if 97% of people believe it, it MUST be true, surely? Truth is based on how many people believe in something, which is why Christianity MUST be true – a third of the population of the planet believe it!
Having said that, now it says 91% believe it was NOT founded on Christian principles. Pah. What do these pollsters know?
;o)
How long until the poll “disappears”?
They have a blog, but comments are, of course, held for approval.
A=8%
B=92%
C=1%
They seem to have trouble with math as well…
S.Scott, the poll will likely stay up until Monday morning, since we all know that these good christians won’t be working on the sabbat – – oops, the sabbath…
Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?
Current Results:
A. Yes: 8%
B. No: 92%
The words Christianity and God are not found anywhere in the constitution. Jefferson and other founding fathers thought Christianity was medieval crap.
America was founded on the principle that government and religious stupidity must always be kept completely separate.
97% no :-)
Damn, that was quick. Pretty much a 180 in three hours. Doesn’t it scare you, PZ?
But can I just repeat, as long as everyone votes only once then there is no ‘crashing’ involved. They asked a question, they got an answer.
Speaking of Jefferson and Christian historical revisionism, Ed Brayton has an interesting post on Bush editing out some anti-religiousness from a Jefferson quote.
Speaking of Jefferson and Christian historical revisionism, Ed Brayton has an interesting post (which I am apparently not allowed to link to) on Bush editing out some non-doubleplus-religious-speak from a Jefferson quote.
I think you could be on Fox News for taking “Poll Crashing” to a new level. You have trounced the Freepers in the past and the Christian Founders crowd. Now, if we could only use your power to do good, as in convincing people that Bud, Miller and Coors are crap beers.
With my vote, one of 149 votes cast, the swing is at 92% to 7%. And for those who need more information, Edward Tabash is going to be on Atheists Talk tomorrow. (Unlike Perkins’ picture at the FRC site, I don’t wear a tie and suspenders in the studio.) Note: Minnesota Atheists radio show page isn’t updated yet, but keep your eye on it. It will be updated later today to reflect Tabash as guest.
Dobson’s organizations Focus on Overthrowing the Government and Christofascist Pseudoresearch Council are rumored to have declining memberships and loot intake (money).
They might have overestimated how many people really want to live in a fascist banana republic with a medieval standard of living and lifestyle.
Hoo boy am I glad to live in Finland.
You Americans seem to get all kinds of shit forced down your throats just by the sheer power of peer stupidity.
It’s amazing how much power the morbid Jebas-cultists get over there.
I initially read this with my English sensibility, where “suspenders” are the equivalent of a “garter belt” in American (I think). Not a pretty mental picture to go with my morning coffee.
Andy
97% – No.
Complete turnaround in @4 hours. That was easy.
Too easy…..da da daaaaaaaaaaa!
<akbar>It’s a trap!</akbar>
Yes!!! Focus on Cult Wingnuttery is indeed waning.
I thought I’d be the advocate of the imaginary devil: While it seems clear that the founding fathers were very much in support of the separation of church and state, I don’t think it is clear at all that the US was not “founded on Christian principles.” Christianity had a tremendous influence during the funding times of the US (and, unfortunately, ever since). I just finished reading “Public Vows” by Nancy Cott. The goal of the early republic was to establish Christian monogamous marriage as the standard. And they succeeded because the majority was steeped in Christianity and thus thought that this is the “normal” way. Marriage was linked to citizenship not only practically (men became full citizens really only after they married) but also symbolically (the marriage metaphor was used as an example of a consensual relationship).
So, in some ways, the question whether the U.S. was founded on Christian principles is splitting hairs because Christian thinking had such a big influence on so many spheres of this nation. I think what is much more important to emphasize again and again is that – unlike the Religious Wrong – the founding fathers believed in the separation of church and state, at least in principle. They clearly did not want to elevate Christianity to a state religion; the US is not a Christian nation.
Andy –
I’m not prepared to make a public statement regarding suspenders and knickers at this point. I’ll leave that to JanieBelle to discuss.
Mea culpa #39, you are correct. I was thinking Declaration of Independence but wrote Constitution. And the day after Independence Day, too.
off topic, I thought the Capitol Fourth program this year was particularly uninspiring, almost like just going through the motions. Sad, when there’s a lot of inspiringly good music and talent out there (not that every performer was a talentless hack – Brian Stokes Mitchell is an exciting and talented performer – just not yesterday, IMO)
#59 wrote: “America was founded on the principle that government and religious stupidity must always be kept completely separate.”
And what astounds and makes me very happy is the number of religious people who DO actually believe that! It’s one of the reasons the Dover school board was all but completely replaced at the next election after stupidly trying to force the teachers to use the Pandas book. It’s one of the reasons this John Freshwater guy will stay fired, because any court supporting him would in effect be saying it was OK to teach kids in science class that the world was created on the back of turtle, or leading group prayers to Allah, or burning the Star of David into kids arms.
The founding fathers and mothers lived in a time called “The Age of Enlightenment”, or “The Age of Reason”. Surely it can get no better, no fairer, no more reasonable, than #59 writes. It simply allows for people to believe as they wish (even if “stupidly”), without being persecuted or disadvantaged because of it. Brilliant!
Current Results:
A. Yes: 6%
B. No: 93%
C. Need more information : 1%
149
#39
No kidding. They sent Jefferson packing off to France, then sat down and wrote the Constitution. Many historians suggest this was intentional as Jefferson was seen as troublesome by many of the pragmatists.
However, the lion’s share of the Constitution was based on the Constitution of Virginia, which was the work of Jefferson. It’s said that Jefferson drew some ideas from the Indian Nations, as well as English and French law.
Not unlikely, Jefferson’s father was a scholar of Native American cultures and spoke many native languages.
The next time someone says that America was founded on “Christian principles”, I’d love to challenge them to name just one.
I just posted this on Greg Laden’s blog in relation to Bobby Jindal signing the anti-science education bill. I think it has some relevance to this topic:
Scientists will find that in the realm of politics, their worth is still a notch lower than the usefulness of Judeo-Christian-Islamic brainwashing techniques….and outside the hallowed halls of academia, politicians have to calculate that scientists can always figure out what they really need in order to make more goodies, but someone has to motivate and organize all the cannon fodder and nothing has been shown to work as well as the judeo-christian-islamic “tradition”. In this sense, bobby jindal is betting on having his cake and eating it too….scientists will keep doing science even while they complain and the moronic armies will continue to vote and volunteer for combat..win, win!
In the long run though, its not a great shortcut. They always end up killing each other for the love of god. But by then, Bobby’s descendants will probably be converting back to islamicized hinduism in Bangalore and all the loot from Lousiana may come in useful. Unless there really IS a god, who may decide to punish them by having the inquisition burn them on the stake. One can always hope.
94% No!
I’m not going to vote on this one. It’s much more complicated than a yes/no answer. Some of the people who drew up America’s Constitution and early working would have done so partly from their Christian teachings, some would haven not. Even those that did would be cherry picking their Bible, but for them it would still come from their religion. I think many rationalists are too quick to gun down that America was founded on Christian principles, it needs careful scrutiny to see which parts of its workings were Christian inspired and which weren’t – ultimately nothing of substance in Christianity is original – even many of the myths are borrowed. It is ludicrous to say however that the many Christians deciding on how America was going to work completely blocked out their Christian indoctrination. So, no, it wasn’t explicitly founded Christian, but yes you can trace cherry picked Christian principles to it, and those principles can be traced from earlier times to Christianity.
I hope I have demonstrated it’s much more complicated than yes/no.
I still think it’s ridiculous and irrational to worry what your nation was founded on. Patriotic American atheists have tried to justify this to me as it being important because the founding fathers were so inspirational that their message should be regarded to this day, but people should still only regard the past as the past, and optional to live by in the future. Just because an idea was involved in a countries founding is not adequate reason to keep an idea – it must be subjected to rational scrutiny just like everything else.
Nova, it’s a silly poll because the documents left behind from the past (on which the laws of this country are presumed to be based) clearly indicate that this is a stupid question asked by people who don’t know their history from shinola.
The rationality has yet to be fully applied in the United States, and it seems that we are constantly stuck in a tug-of-war between people who want to destroy the establishment clause because it doesn’t fit their absolutism on religion, and people who think that religion is a private matter.
Many fundamentalists claim that the American legal system is based on the 10 Commandments. Using the King James Version of the 10 Commandments (Deut 5, 1-17) let’s take a look at them.
The first three commandments (1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.) are purely religious in nature. They have never been part of the legal system of the U.S.
Commandment 4 (Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy) is still commemorated in blue laws, i.e. Sunday closing laws and laws in various states prohibiting Sunday alcohol sales. So I’ll give this one to the fundies.
Commandment 5 (Honour thy father and thy mother) is easy. If you forget to send Mommy a Mother’s Day card, you go to jail. Or maybe not.
Commandment 6 (Thou shalt not kill) is basic to every legal system, including those predating Christianity and those established by non-Christians. Making murder illegal is not confined to Christians. Sorry, fundies, but it’s a no-go.
Commandment 7 (Thou shalt not commit adultery) has more or less fallen by the wayside in the last generation or two. However, it was a big deal in the 18th and 19th Centuries. But it’s also a big deal in Sharia (there’s the Saudi woman who was stoned recently for adultery) and other non-Christian legal systems. I’ll call it a push.
Commandment 8 (Thou shalt not steal), like the commandment against killing, is generic to all legal systems.
Commandment 9 (Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour) is another offense found in most legal systems. Perjury is a crime wherever there is some sort of trial involving sworn witnesses.
Commandment 10 (Thou shalt not covet) has never been part of the American legal system.
So it appears that one of the major claims purporting to show that America is based on Christian principles just isn’t so.
@Nova – “Just because an idea was involved in a countries founding is not adequate reason to keep an idea – it must be subjected to rational scrutiny just like everything else.”
Ummm… yes it is. It was very well thought out. These men were witnesses to the horror that took place in many of the different “colonies” that claimed a specific religion for their government(s).
@JoJo – Nice! :-)
PZ
You are the best. I love crashing these polls!
Thanks
Damn you Americans and your time zones. And even Greg Laden beat me to “Nert eny mehr”.
Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?
Your vote has been recorded.
Current Results:
A. Yes: 5%
B. No: 94%
C. Need more information : 1%
Up to 97% correct now.
Christian nation? In a country whose founding document does not mention any god, which explicitly forbids religious tests for office, and let’s not forget the Wall of Separation in the First Amendment? Don’t make me laugh…
From my limited philosophy history knowledge, the western liberal tradition seems to have been inititated from a Christian premise (ie Locke). But Locke was the one who started the separation of church and state thing, so that’s not really what the pollmakers want, I think.
5% yes
95% no
That’s a pretty impressive turn around.
While early America was settled by many fine Christian men such as Cotton Matther and Jonathan Edwards, this country was led astray by the fake Christian Masonic “founding fathers” who gave us the inheirently dishonest first amendment and “no religious test requirement” that established the Sodomite religion of evolutionism. Freedom of religion means moral anarchy. All governments are based on religion; any government that claims to be religiously neutral is actually controlled by Satan. The religion of “religious neutrality” is actually that of evolutionism.
The revered “founding fathers” were always careful to couch the Satanic values of Freemasonry in Biblical language to hoodwink a Jesus-loving populace into accepting rule by evolutionists. All they really wanted was freedom to practice unconstrained buggery in their Masonic Lodges!
Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?
Your vote has been recorded.
Current Results:
A. Yes: 4%
B. No: 95%
C. Need more information : 1%
Still at 4. What, my vote didn’t count?!
(Screw this rounding business.)
Damn. Still 95% No, 4% Yes. How many votes is it going to take to get to 96%?
Well Deborah, I am quite sure you, or anyone else here, would clear their cookies and vote again.
As I mentioned previously, that would be a terribly naughty thing to do, and would skew this scientific poll.
No change:
—-
Current Results:
A. Yes: 4%
B. No: 95%
C. Need more information : 1%
S.Scott:
I said ideas in a countries founding should be subjected to rational scrutiny but you say no, it is sufficient the country was founded on them. Thats faith in patriotism and equivalent to religion. I didn’t say that the founding principles of a country necessarily needed to be thrown out – some are very good ideas – just that even they need rational scrutiny. But for you the simple fact they are a founding principle of your country is enough, no investigation needed – that is faith in patriotism. Many of them were Christians, you just made up that bit about them experiencing the horrors of organized religion. Our records are far to sketchy to know what most of them thought (obviously we know what some thought). So it requires yet more faith for you to project your ideal picture of their intentions onto them without adequate evidence.
you just made up that bit about them experiencing the horrors of organized religion
What??? I guess you never heard about the Danbury Baptists?
And of course no one like ,say Thomas Jefferson, was around at that time? He never knew that the Danbury Baptists were forced to pay taxes to the Catholic Church? Right?
And we don’t have any evidence of that , right?
No one knew that Rhode Island banished Quakers, right? to have their tongues bored with hot irons and their books banished. Right?
They never knew of the witch hunts in Salem, right?
They never knew of instances where people were hung because they were not of the state religion and happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, right?
Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?
Your vote has been recorded.
Current Results:
A. Yes: 4%
B. No: 95%
C. Need more information : 1%
Do you believe that America, as a nation, was founded upon Christian principles?
Your vote has been recorded.
Current Results:
A. Yes: 5%
B. No: 95%
C. Need more information : 1%
[But like Tom Stopppard observed: “It’s not the voting that’s democracy; it’s the counting.”
[So wouldn’t surprise me to see quite a few “purple thumbs” over there at FRC to swing to their liking.]