You can join in, and many of you here are old pros at this exercise:
In promoting the creationist propaganda film Expelled, Ben Stein managed to stick his foot in his mouth over and over again, issuing what seemed to be a ceaseless stream of ignorant, offensive, and just plain daffy claims. Here’s your chance to set Ben straight. Send your favorite claim to setbenstraight@ncseweb.org along with a refutation. We’ll post the best for all the world to see. And five lucky entrants will receive a year’s subscription to Reports of the NCSE along with their choice of a book from NCSE’s shelf – including such useful books as Mark Isaak’s The Counter-Creationism Handbook, Eugenie C. Scott’s Evolution vs. Creationism, and the AAAS’s The Evolution Dialogues: Science, Christianity, and the Quest for Understanding. But you only have ten days, and a wealth of silliness to examine, so act now!
Read the more detailed rules. Note that you don’t actually have to see the movie to enter; Stein has opened his mouth at enough venues that there a multitude of opportunities available in the public domain.
I’ve certainly got my quotation:
But 250 pithy words explaining (and documenting) why it’s wrong? At the moment all I can come up with are three:
STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!!
OT: Have you seen this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080418/od_nm/britain_psychic_dc
Funny
Physicalist, I couldn’t believe that anyone could ask such a stupid question, so I googled for it, & there it was! BS apparently asked that. What a nutjob clown!
I plan on seeing Expelled tomorrow. My ticket may say something like “Horton Hears a Who” on it, though. Don’t know how that’ll happen. ;-)
If we’re lucky, this effort will turn out to be (mostly) needless. Expelled currently is at 7% on the Tomatometer at Rotten Tomatoes, down from 11% yesterday. (Note, though, that even reviewers who trash the movie often are shamefully ignorant of the underlying ID issues, thinking there may actually be a genuine scientific debate. Send those letters and emails, folks!)
Now to watch the box office receipts. My guess is they’ll get a very small bump by herding fundie congregations into theaters, and then everyone else will decide they’re not going to punk down $9.50 to see a widely derided piece of crap–regardless of their views and/or knowledge of ID.
The funniest quote if I could find it, would be to relate the “religious profanity” unleashed by salty Ben Stein when he got interrupted in the middle of an NPR interview. I’m sure the true believers would have been particularly pleased with his choice of words.
Mathis would have pissed himself if he had captured Myers or Dawkins using that sort of language on tape. It would have been edited to repeat as a loop over and over again.
Great link Bill. Thanks.
The same should apply over here to anyone making claims like this, especially prayer claims. I can only imagine the vast numbers of people who have been “prayed for” and have been let down. Law suites galore against all of these huge mega-churches.
“Assuming it all did happen by Random Mutation and Natural Selection, where did the laws of gravity come from?” Ben Stein.
That sounds like something they would post over at Landover Baptist.
Someone was pointing out how absurd that Mr Establishment himself is posing as a rebel against the man. This is kind of making me wonder if Expelled is a failed attempt at a parody of the ID movement.
How about this one:
From: http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000007058.cfm
Ah, the irony.
@ Richard Harris (#3):
And the amazing thing is that it’s not just a slip of the tongue or something. He’s apparently been repeatedly harping on this theme; I’ve seen it cited in several interviews. (If I actually take time to write this up, I guess I should find a nice selection.)
If one were trying to be charitable (and one would have to try awfully hard), one might say he’s trying (in a stupid and inarticulate way) to challenge naturalism in general. But (a) that’s stupid too, and (b) he repeatedly, explicitly, and consistently refers to “random mutation and natural selection.”
The guy’s a moron.
I feel sorry for Trolls like Keith for the movie begins today and except for the unseasonal snow fall (Sometimes I hate living in Calgary) nothing unusual has happened I guess the end of the world for us evo-devils is late again.
To bad, I really was rooting for the whole burning in hell bit.
Alex, I know. Could you imagine how things would be if Churches could be held liable under consumer laws? Unfortunately they only request tithes as donations and don’t make any legally binding claims as to services rendered. :(
Mediums and Faith Healers on the other hand are charging a fee for services rendered. Of course they should be required to prove what they are delivering is true.
Still it would be awesome if Televangelists had to run a disclaimer that the show is for “Entertainment” purposes only just like the Psychic hotlines do.
nailing Ben Stein to a cross!!!! its about time we give him his martyr wish.
and yet so ironic.
Here’s an idea. How about any quotes we find, we also add them to the Ben Stein Wikiqoute page. Let’s make sure his views get the full recognition they deserve.
Starbix
“Don’t Panic.” -Douglas Adams
“Note that you don’t actually have to see the movie to enter; Stein has opened his mouth at enough venues that there a multitude of opportunities available in the public domain.”
In fact, the contest rules go further; not only do you not need to use things from the movie, you can’t use things from the movie: “the text or transcript of a claim made by Ben Stein in promoting Expelled (not in the movie itself).”
Should be fun. The quotes in #1 and #9 are particularly hilarious. If I didn’t know better, I’d think he was parodying himself and ID on purpose.
Agree about the wikiquotes suggestion in #14.
Ben Stein is scheduled for Larry King Live tonight. Larry’s softball questions should elicit lots of contest material.
beagledad:
You’re probably right, but I’m guessing that by this time tomorrow the film’s website will be claiming that 9.2 billion people saw the film on opening night.
Under other circumstances, I’d love to play, but I finally finished my big “persecution” post and I’d rather not deal with this sordid mess ever again. Tonight, I’m going to throw myself a “drive Expelled out of my mind” party, with food and cartoons and all sorts of good things which have nothing to do with creationist stupidity.
#1, that is just a mind-boggling question. I’m trying to come up with a parody answer to it, and it just keeps falling apart. Was his next question about PYGMIES + DWARFS?
It’s just so… Weird.
By the way, everyone, please make sure you go to this stupid review (http://www.comingsoon.net/news/reviewsnews.php?id=44147) and add your own comment to it. Bad has been at it, and I have too. To have an utterly preposterous review like that, and then to allow comments on it, is an opportunity that comes along rarely.
I really can’t wait for the Razzies next year.
This one also allows comments:
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080417/31994_Expelled_was_Excellent!.htm
Currently at Rotten Tomatoes:
Zombie Strippers: 42%
Expelled: 6%
A longer, even more stupid variation of the quote I cited above:
From: http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/2008/s08040068.htm
He really does repeat every stupid argument ever made.
No holds barred,except for obscene language? I’m all for it, and may the best entry win and the insane losers (Stein and rabble) sink into the muck of insanity even deeper! Stein, your name is no longer mud, but muck!
Good grief! The AAAS has issued an official statement regarding “Expelled.” Check it out:
“Regarding the Importance of the Integrity of Science as Depicted in Film”
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2008/media/0418aaas_statement.pdf
As per #14’s suggestion, I’m posting all these wonderful bits of IDiocy on Ben’s wikiquote page, and while sourcing the quote from #1 (from their telephone ‘press conference’, btw), I came up with it in context. As with many religious things, it only gets stupider when taken in context:
“[The] Third [problem with Darwinism], which I think is overwhelming, and just sort of blows the whole theory of Random Mutation out of the water, is, at least, let me say, raises big questions, that is. Assuming it all did happen by Random Mutation and Natural Selection, where did the laws of gravity come from. Where did the laws of thermodynamics come from? Where did the laws of motion and, of heat come from? Where, I guess that’s the same as thermodynamics. Where did all these laws, that make it possible for the universe to function, where did they all come from? Why isn’t all just chaos and everything collapsing in on itself and killing everything?”
I have to echo #1 on the only appropriate response to this: STUPID, STUPID, STUPID!!!
Keep the quotes coming…I’m having fun putting them on wikiquotes, and it’s a great procrastination tool for me….
Much as I’d love to go see this movie, I promised my fiance I’d start viewing some more intellectually stimulating films, so I had to rent Dumb and Dumber.
And we all know gravity randomly mutated from antigravity which was the result of a genetic shift in the devils footprints.
Or this gem:
Link
The god-soaked are raving about the movie on Yahoo
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809995068/user
i’m picking a simple quote to debunk. it’s one that refers to the film as “a documentary”
Link
“based on the little I know” — well, at keast he gets something right…
After reading the quote from #24 my brain shut down for a while.
My only coherent response to is is to a fragment of it “Why isn’t all just chaos and everything collapsing in on itself and killing everything?”
Becuase it is just chaos with everything collapsing in on itse;f and killing everything. Your life is just too short and insignifigant for it to be obvious, mine too, but at least I didn’t work fo rNixon.
As with Sherlock Holmes’ famous case of The Dog That Did Not Bark, pride of place goes to Ben Stein’s failure to adduce himself as a counterexample to the evolutionary hypothesis:
http://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2008/04/expelled-the-fi.html
Back in the seventies, I had an LP of two of Nixon’s speeches, the so-called “Checkers” speech on on side, and his big resignation speech (which I’m sure Ben Stein had a hand in writing) on the other.
It had one important addition which made it hilarious. A laugh track had been added.
Now, if “Expelled” were to get a laugh track…well, that’s a joke that just writes itself, doesn’t it?
Link
Ben Stein is a genius. A 21st century Einsteinian figure.
Ben Stein is a genius. A 21st century Einsteinian figure.
Thank you, Ken Ham!
Laugh track? How about a Rifftrax?
I’m sure if we ask Michael Nelson (MST3K) really nice he’ll do one up for us.
As a God fearing christian who also happens to accept evolution as a well established scientific theory I had the misfortune of watching this attrocity called a movie. I was in shock and awe when the audience actually clapped after the credits rolled. If you havent seen the movie be warned, it will make you very angry.
As for something fun to debunk he tries to poke fun at dawkins for mentioning crystals as possible reagents for abiogenesis. Clearly he didnt know what Dawkins was talking about and so decided to gufaw at the use of the word crystals, since obviously anyone who says that word must be a nutcase.
Putting all fun with Ben Stein/IDiot bashing aside (and that’s hard, believe me), I do have to wonder about the wisdom of this contest though. Will it really dissuade any IDiots from believing Stein’s claims? Or will it simply be more fodder for Stein’s “big science is persecuting me” whining?
And Ben may have very well written both of those, since he worked as a speechwriter for Nixon.
From an interview with Christianity Today:
Christianity Today: Do you feel that by putting God so front-and-center, you are blowing the ID scientists’ cover?
Stein: No, because I’m not speaking for them, I’m just speaking for me. And for me, it’s pretty clear-cut that until we learn some better explanation for how life began, there is a God who always existed and created the heavens and the earth. And until somebody gives me a better explanation, I’ll go for it.
And it doesn’t scare me at all when scientists say, “Oh, but that can’t be proved,” because neither can any of the Darwinian hypotheses about how life began be proved. Anyway, I couldn’t give a [profanity] whether a person calls himself a scientist. It doesn’t earn any extra respect from me, because it’s not as if science has covered itself with glory, morally, in my time. Scientists were the people in Germany telling Hitler that it was a good idea to kill all the Jews. Scientists were telling Stalin it was a good idea to wipe out the middle-class peasants. Scientists were telling Mao Tse-Tung it was fine to kill 50 million people in order to further the revolution.
…I don’t even know where to start on this one…so much for ‘following the evidence wherever it may lead’ and all that….
#38 Etha –
He’s the one making the absurd claims and outright lies on the record.
The contest is looking for sincere rebuttals and refutations which will prove that he is a charlatan. Only someone as dense as Stein could interpret a logical rebuttal as “persecution”. Isn’t having an equal chance to present his argument what he is asking for? Through these quotes he is presenting his arguments and he will be calmly, respectfully, and professionally shown to be full of crap.
Not counting the obtuse quotes, Stein gets my vote as worse dressed man of the year, for knickers and sneakers.
Mr Blackwell, are you listening?
Encouragingly, “Expelled” * is getting destroyed by the critics across the board. The bad news is that only a few of the critics appear to be scientifically literate enough to spot the flaws in the presentation of “Darwinism”; the much better news is that this shortcoming doesn’t matter much. The movie is going down in flames for being a poorly executed, boring, offensive piece of shit. With reviews like this, I can’t see an extended run taking place anywhere but in church basements. Huzzah!
*jazz hands
Holy crap! He really has gone off the deep end. He isn’t doing this for publicity or for a cause. He really believes it. He really is, full on, no-kidding, stark raving mad.
This isn’t funny anymore.
PZ, can you somehow add a laugh track to #34?
Ben Stein: Building a Bridge to the Eighteenth Century.
#41 — While I certainly agree, and I daresay most or even all of Pharyngula readers agree, my fear is that this will just turn into a self-congratulatory agreeing with each other party. We will all see each other’s proof, and agree with each other, and those who are as dense (or more) as/than Stein will interpret it as persecution.
At the same time, though, I do see the merits (and fun) in establishing Stein as a charlatan. And IMO, if even a handful of people are convinced, it’s worth it. I just worry that that handful of people doesn’t exist. But maybe I’m a pessimist….
#44 — Yeah, it is pretty scary. And if ‘scientists’ were indeed saying that to Hitler/Mao/Stalin, it’s because all the scientists who *weren’t* saying that were considered counterrevolutionaries or enemies of the Fatherland or whatever.
And then when people like Dawkins talk about the dangers of religion, they go on about how those people weren’t *really* following the teachings of the Bible. The hypocrisy is just…overwhelming. And yes, more than a little frightening.
“…Darwinism explains microevolution within species quite well. As to its broader consequence and implications, I don’t think it explains individual species evolution at all well.”
So he’s ok with small changes occurring over a relatively very short amount of time causing small variation of an organism, but not ok with small changes occurring over a relatively large span of time causing large variation?
small changes + little time = small variation (true)
small changes + lots of time != large variation (?? WTF?!)
(for non-programmers, ‘!=’ means ‘not equal’)
What a dunce.
So, after I spent twenty-one hundred words laying out the moral problems caused by creationism — you know, little things like human suffering — I get a comment accusing me of endorsing a “No Rules No Morality” view of life.
Sigh.
You just can’t talk to some people.
A few more gems from the Christianity Today interview:
#1 (In which Ben admits to his ignorance, both of actual science and IDiocy):
CT: How familiar were you with the subject of Intelligent Design prior to this?
BS: Not at all. I’m still not that familiar with it. I’m more familiar with it than most people, but nowhere near as familiar with it as a genuine expert in the subject. I don’t pretend to be a scientist. I’m the person who moderates the discussion between and among the scientists.
#2 (in which Stein first admits to having only done ‘some’ research [not entirely damning, but not inspiring of confidence either], then reveals what that research was):
CT: Did you do a lot of reading to prep for the role?
BS: Some. I read one book cover to cover, From Darwin to Hitler, and that was a very interesting book–one of these rare books I wish had been even longer. It’s about how Darwin’s theory–supposedly concocted by this mild-mannered saintly man, with a flowing white beard like Santa Claus–led to the murder of millions of innocent people.
#3 (in which Stein, after confirming that he started out with a conclusion already in mind, yet again confuses evolution and abiogenesis; nothing new, but still amusing, and worthwhile to refute):
CT: Has your research into the intelligent design debate affected your beliefs?
BS: Yes, it has made my belief in that much stronger. It has pointed out something which haunted me ever since I learned about Darwinism, which is, Where did it all start? How did life start? Darwinism has nothing to say about that–nothing useful, anyway–but I think Intelligent Design has a great deal to say about it.
And incidentally, how hilariously fitting is it that his initials spell BS? Exactly what this entire movie is….
Holy shite PZ, I thought you were kidding. Wish I could enter my local townsfolk in this. They are so stupid (how stupid can they be) that they actually don’t know what the two words natural selection mean.
christian apologist @37
Thank you for this review, and for recognizing the false science vs. religion dichotomy that the film is trying to push – I wish this realizaton were more widespread amongst your colleagues, but every voice counts.
Etha @40:
I’m waiting for Stein to say that scientists in Cambodia were telling Pol Pot it was a good idea to kill them off.
On a lighter note – Rotten Tomatoes update: Zombie Strippers, 41%; Expelled, 9% (but even the 2 “positive” reviews are sketchy)
Today I was watching the Discovery Channel. Then the commercials came on…Why is there a trailer for Expelled playing on the Discovery Channel? Seriously?
“sketchy” = one by an ignorant hack, and one from Christianity Today.
Is it sick and wrong of me to want this on a t-shirt?
Today I was watching the Discovery Channel. Then the commercials came on…Why is there a trailer for Expelled playing on the Discovery Channel? Seriously?
Posted by: Chris | April 18, 2008 5:44 PM
Sadly, it is for the same reason that the History channel and other stations are running the ridiculous ads — money. (Though I’m sure you already know this – just thought I’d throw it out there for argument’s sake.)
http://www.google.com/search?q=do+jews+go+to+heaven
#49 Blake –
Excellent work. Your article is the exact answer to the question “Why are they so afraid of this film?”
There will be blood because of this movie. Like you said, all of the pieces are there. Expelled, despite what a piece of crap it is, is all the “call to action” that these nuts will need to turn violent.
Something hilarious (though not terribly surprising) that I noticed while compiling these quotes on wikiquotes:
This is Ben Stein in Christianity Today:
“Yes, it [making Expelled] has made my belief in that [Intelligent Design] much stronger. It has pointed out something which haunted me ever since I learned about Darwinism, which is, Where did it all start? How did life start? Darwinism has nothing to say about that–nothing useful, anyway–but I think Intelligent Design has a great deal to say about it.”
Now this is Ben Stein at the post-Expelled-premier party, talking to ‘intellectual conservatives’:
“I went in thinking: ‘I’m not going to find out that Darwinism is a fraud. I’ll probably find out these (intelligent design proponents) are frauds.’ But I wound up knowing a lot more than when I started. I learned that Darwinism is being overhyped, and that it doesn’t really convey what’s going on. Sometimes if you follow a ‘truth’ far enough, it becomes a lie.”
Seems like Ben needs to get his story straight….
“In today’s world, at least in America, an Einstein or a Newton or a Galileo would probably not be allowed to receive grants to study or to publish his research. They cannot even mention the possibility that-as Newton or Galileo believed-these laws were created by God or a higher being.”
*headdesk* Galileo. Galileo.
From BSs Introductory Blog on the Expelled site.
Well, I’d enter, but I keep starting with “Ben, you ignorant slut,…”
Here’s my quote, from an interview on CNN’s “Situation Room” today:
Evolution is wrong because it’s not the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything! Which is silly, because we already know that the answer is 42.
The New York Times had their review today, and it was abysmal. They called it sleazy and shameless, but my favorite part of the review? “Expelled” is rated PG (Parental guidance suggested). It has smoking guns and drunken logic.
Zing!
My entry: Every word Ben Stein has ever said or written, with the comment “sic”.
Woobegone #63:
Great idea. A variation would be one of his many quotes about ‘Darwinism’, with the comment “sic” after every use of the word ‘Darwinism’ or ‘Darwinist.’ The whole use of the term ‘Darwinism’ for evolutionary biology (plus, apparently, abiogenesis, the theory of the origin of the universe, the theory of gravitation, thermodynamics, etc) is just infuriating.
On a somewhat related note: Dinosaurs and The Bible: A Creationist’s Fairy Tale (yes, it’s a mouthful) on WordPress is hosting a To Hell with Expelled Blog Carnival with excerpts and links to some of our anti-Expelled saber-rattling. There’s some good stuff there.
http://dinocreationistsfairytale.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/to-hell-with-expelled/
I love that still from the film. The STATUE of Darwin looks smarter than Stein.
Well, we did follow the consequences of that, and found out that there is NO scientific validity to the existence of God at all. Any testable predictions failed. To atheists like Dawkins, this indicates that God does not exist.
Theists, on the other hand, have a task to do: explain — regularly and with conviction — that of course there is no scientific validity to the concept of God; of course nobody would ever expect there to be any scientific evidence for the existence of God; of course one would expect that our scientific discoveries would manage to undermine all the intuitions which lead to believing in God in the first place. They should.
Of course science doesn’t lead to God — because if it did, then there would be no need for FAITH, which is the best, wisest, nicest thing to have in the whole world, and God knows it. It requires a lot of discipline and integrity to keep God outside of science. A lot of respect for faith. Of course.
I’d just like to point out that Hitler and Stein agree…those darned intellectual elite are always shutting out the plucky underdog challenging the “consensus”!
http://www.anomalousdata.com
(Bolded emphasis mine)
No, Ben; it’s creationism that expects you to believe that. Evolution’s the one that involves billions of years.
/plan on seeing Expelled tomorrow. My ticket may say something like “Horton Hears a Who” on it, though. Don’t know how that’ll happen. ;-)/
Nice ruse, but you should actually watch “Horton Hears a Who”. It has the same ID premise as “Expelled” but it’s a lot more plausible.
@69 Martian Buddy points out the similarity between the following quote and creationism:
“Darwinism asks us to believe that one day there was nothing but mud and ooze, and the next day there was life, and very soon after there was intelligent life.”
And boy, doesn’t his description of ‘evolution’ sound almost *exactly* like the Genesis creation myth:
3rd day: Land (mud and ooze) and vegetable life.
5th day: Animal life (sea)
6th day: Animal life (land); Human life
OK, so he got it a little wrong…the ‘ooze and mud’ and beginning of life was actually during the same day. But given the gross errors he commits in his description of evolution, I think we can overlook a couple minor details.
I kind of want to petition video stores to file this sorry excuse for a movie as ‘science fiction’ as a play on words, except that I fear it would give my beloved scifi genre a bad name….
In an interview with Glenn Beck, BS himself admits that he is not qualified to make this movie:
“Well, the first cause is not…it’s lightning striking a mud puddle. See, and this is what the evolutionists say. And by the way, they may be right — you know, I’m not a scientist, they could be right.”
I really don’t think anything more needs to be said.
(And incidentally, before this he makes ‘scientific’ claims about ‘Darwinism,’ and after this he goes into a misinformed rant about the complexity of the cell, despite having just admited that ‘he’s not a scientist.’)
Also from the Glenn Beck show:
“And there hasn’t been much progress in Darwinism since [the life of Darwin].”
Hmmm. Well, I suppose if you define Darwinism as the belief in what Darwin said (as the etymology would indicate), that would be a tautology; dead men make little progress. However, if you use ‘Darwinism’ as a synonym for ‘evolutionary biology’ (which I assume is what BS means to do, although oddly he also wants it to encompass cosmology, mechanics, thermodynamics, etc), this is patently false. Unless you consider things like, oh, say, THE DISCOVERY OF SELF-REPLICATING MOLECULES THAT ENCODE BIOLOGICAL INFORMATION WITH RANDOM VARIATION “very little progress.”
I don’t even know why I bother to get upset about these things anymore…
Alright guys, look. Ben Stein is not a bad guy. He’s an actor. He’s a writer. He’s a consultant. He doesn’t think much about science or evolution.
He’s a Christian who believes morals derive from God. Like most Christians, he hasn’t given this belief much thought.
In more candid interviews, he has admitted that he doesn’t know much about Darwin’s theory, but understands that it has merit.
These facts combined to make him the perfect candidate to narrate the movie. He was duped by Walt Ruloff and the other producers of Expelled. They are the real evil behind this movie. To heap all the blame on Ben Stein for this movie is to completely miss the whole Christ-mongering machinery behind this effort.
Finally, my personal favorite from the Glenn Beck show:
“But when I talk to people who are Darwinists or evolutionists and say, ‘Well, how did life begin’ — they’re…they don’t have an answer. I mean, they have an answer, but it’s a BS answer. It’s an answer that wouldn’t make sense to a small child.”
This is just damning. The theory of abiogenesis doesn’t make sense to a small child (and those with the mentality of a small child, ie, IDiots)?! Obviously, religion MUST be right.
I propose a new form of peer review: small child review. Anything that makes sense to a small child gets in. Anything that doesn’t is tossed. Wonder how science would fare under those conditions….
Also, for a full collection of all the wonderful BS-isms Pharyngulites have come up with, see Stein’s wikiquote page. (Yes, I wasted pretty much my whole afternoon at work doing this…all for a good cause, right?)
Ummmm, Ben Stein is Jewish. Temple going, yamulke wearing, Torah reading -He’s Jewish…
Ah fuck. I knew that, too. But you get what I mean. The “Christian” part was not important, just that he’s a “believer”.
“[Ben Stein]’s a Christian who believes morals derive from God. Like most Christians, he hasn’t given this belief much thought.”
Actually, he’s a Jew who believes morals derive from God and hasn’t given it much thought. But other than that, you’re probably correct.
However, he has repeatedly lied in interviews. For example, in his Christianity Today interview he claims that this strengthened his belief in ID and problems with Darwinism; at the post-release party, he claims that he went into the film expecting to see ID debunked and left it with a different view of the matter. Either way, he’s lying to someone. Furthermore, in the movie he claims he wants to ‘follow the evidence wherever it leads’, but then he bashes scientists as amoral, and says that he doesn’t care whether
BS is a lying hypocrite. Whether his morals derive from some misguided notion of ‘God,’ a power trip, the opportunistic desire to make money, or something else is irrelevant. He is *not* a victim in all of this.
(If you meant your comment sarcastically, I apologize. Sarcasm is hard to detect on the internet.)
Yeah… my bad.
If you were almost completely ignorant of how science works, let alone about the details of Darwin’s theory and you surrounded yourself with a bunch of creationists for a few months, wouldn’t you be strengthened in your belief in creationism too?
So why is it “lying” for Stein to admit that? He was clearly presented a biased case.
I think it’s self-defeating for us to blame this movie (solely) on Stein. Sure, he’s got some blame. But he was merely the most visible pawn being played by the creationist, Church-in-the-classroom hand. To be distracted by Stein is to miss how endemic and deeply rooted this effort really is.
Good job on the Wikiquote, Etha Williams. However, your link doesn’t seem to work. Here it is again:
Ben Stein Quotations
Point and laugh, people; point and laugh!
“Anyone know what this is? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone seen this before? Genesis 2:19. Anyone know what this says? It says ‘Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air….'”
Strange, the link worked in preview. Trying again:
Stein Quotations
So much hate in a science blog? Strange…just goes to show the level of intelligence.
Of course, Blake. “Sigh” is right. You’re dealing with minds that “forget” that Torquemada ever existed, that Hitler was a freaking Catholic, that Spanish conquistadors virutally exterminated entire civilizations in the name of the Holy Roman Emperor, minds that “know” that liberalism and atheism are nothing more than convenient get-off-the-hook-free cards for the amoral hedonists and genocidal maniacs of the world.
You’re an optimist, like me, and maybe expected a rational response? ;-)
This whole Darwin = Holocaust thing just infuriates me. Scientist who accept evolution are responisble for improving or saving the lives of most of humanity. In fact, one scientist is responsible for rescuing 100’s of millions of people from starvation and famine. Norman Borlaug has helped produce more food and crops than Jesus ever could with his parlor tricks. He helped India double it’s wheat output at the height of a famine in the 60’s. He has introduced strains of wheat and rice in many countries in the Americas and Asia, significantly increasing output. He also tries to help in the few African countries he is allowed in. He is a forgotten hero that has done more good than any religious person ever could. And to think, if the creationists had their way, this man wouldn’t exist.
Darwin doesn’t equal holocaust no more than religion equals terrorism. However terrorists have used religion to justify thier actions and Hitler followed natural selection to its logical end.
It sounds like many here like playing the victim in an effor to discredit the film.
@#80: “If you were almost completely ignorant of how science works, let alone about the details of Darwin’s theory and you surrounded yourself with a bunch of creationists for a few months, wouldn’t you be strengthened in your belief in creationism too?”
Yes, but then in his post-premier party, he tells them that he expected to see ID debunked. That’s my point. Either he’s lying to the Christianity Today people in saying that his belief in ID was strengthened (implying that he already believed in it), or he’s lying to the ‘intellectual conservatives’ in saying that he went in expecting ID to be shown wrong (implying he didn’t initially believe in ID).
Further, he plainly knew about the whole ‘Crossroads’ thing, yet didn’t seem to care overly much about the hypocrisy in that — certainly not enough to denounce the act.
And in the movie he makes a big deal about wanting to follow scientific evidence to its logical conclusion and ID being all scientific like, but when talking to the sympathetic folk at Christianity Today, he takes another tack, dismissing the notion of needing proof for any scientific theory.
This isn’t just ignorance. This is willful deception and hypocrisy.
That said, there are other guilty parties involved. But when Ben Stein decided to be the mouthpiece for them, he also set himself up as the person to whom criticism would be directed.
#87: “However terrorists have used religion to justify thier actions and Hitler followed natural selection to its logical end.”
This utilizes one of my favorite rhetorical techniques: when religious people do it, they are using religion “to justify thier [sic] actions” — allowing for the possibility that religion is being misapplied or misinterpreted in such a situation. However, the (mis)application of the theory of natural selection in Nazism is considered “following natural selection to its logical conclusion.” Somebody with even the most elementary grasp of science can tell you that Nazism is *not* the ‘logical conclusion’ of the theory of evolution by natural selection. Eugenics reflects a very poor and overly simplistic view of how natural selection works (but it would have to if people thought that they could do by artificial selection what nature does by natural selection; nature is in many ways a far more intelligent designer than we are). Furthermore, evolution makes no value judgment as to whether natural selection is a good or bad thing; it just states that this is how speciation happens. It’s a statement of scientific fact (as we understand it), not a value judgment.
Thus, to say Hitler followed natural selection to its ‘logical’ conclusion is utterly fatuous. (Theologians, on the other hand, might differ amongst themselves on whether various atrocities committed in the name of religion were theologically correct.)
The Baltimore Sun reviewed Expelled in yesterday’s (Friday, 4/18) paper and gave it a grade of “D.” A very generous grade IMO, given the reviewer’s comments.
The review begins:
“Someday perhaps it will be possible to look back on Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed as a relic and reminder of the rhetorical logic employed during the era of George W. Bush. Until then, it should be seen simply as a tiresome ideological bludgeon, an attempt to deceive audiences into believing it is one thing when it is, in fact, quite another.”
And the review ends with:
“As a work of nonfiction filmmaking it is an atrocious sham, and as agitprop it is too flimsy to strike any serious blows. The most rational, genuinely effective way to deal with Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed is to not be drawn into its web, to simply ignore it.”
The complete review can be read at:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-to.expelled18apr18,0,6294024.story
Or use this tiny link:
http://tinyurl.com/5y7mja
Hey PZ,
Instead of following the rules of the contest would it be okay if I just break into the conference call or whatever announcing the results and have my say that way? Rules are for other people to follow, not us, right?
Hey, are you the real Dave Scot? Petty tsar of Uncommon descent, who bans people who disagree with him, even when they are being polite?
If so, I suggest you are a moron, without a leg to stand on due to your own hypocrisy and lies.
DaveScot #91:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Have already paged Digital Cuttlefish for this one… ;)
Just to put things a bit in context –
Ben Stein was an economist in an earlier incarnation, being the son of Herb Stein. Herb Stein was one of Nixon’s premier economic advisors.
In the recent past, Ben Stein has taken to the CNBC airwaves, claiming that the subprime debacle was really just a pinprick in our economy and would blow over. This was, of course, before the collapse of the investment bank, Bear Sterns, and susequent bailout by the Fed / U.S., and ultimately, the U.S. taxpayer.
Interestingly, Ben hasn’t had much to say about the economy lately. I guess he’s too busy with the release of his latest opus: Expelled.
Interesting, there’s multiple DaveScots ? I peeked in the dungeon before making a comment about him breaking rules already, but it seems that there’s the knucklehead from UD and then someone who was disruptive in other ways.
Hm, that is a terrifying thought…
BCE.
Re shinji2k’s post @ #86: I want to point out that alternative views on the “Green Revolution” exist, notably that of Vandana Shiva:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2000/lecture5.shtml
http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=698
Many of those who have promoted alternative paths – like Shiva, and like, by the way, Peter Kropotkin a century ago – have themselves been scientists. Supporting science does not mean that we must or should accept the very biased and partial understandings of it offered to us by corporations or governments, or every ideological-political project they try to promote in the name of scientific or technological progress. My appreciation of genetic research and my support for a scientifically-informed approach to agriculture do not require me to swallow the idea that Borlaug-Dupont-Monsanto-Cargill efforts represent science properly applied in this context.
I have no desire or intention to debate this here, on someone else’s blog, but I did want to say that much.
Sam #84: Hatred != studpidity – I think the point here is that most people here hate stupidity, particularly when accompanied by sanctimonious dishonesty. I’m sure if you read any of the previous posts on the topic you would find some.
Ben Stein and the creators of Excrement should have kept at least two principles in mind:
1) Don’t bring a spork to a gunfight.
2) (from Blake’s 7) On Earth, it is considered ill-mannered to kill your friends why committing suicide.
I just posted about the box office results for “Expelled” at my own humble blog: http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/
But you don’t need to go there. Here are the results:
It was released in 1,052 theaters. As of 18 April 2008, the gross was $1.2 million. My calculator says that’s $1,140 per theater. Here are the top ranking films that opened on the same date:
#43 The Forbidden Kingdom, Opened 4/18, Gross $7,550,000
#48 Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Opened 4/18, Gross $5,920,000
#58 88 Minutes, Opened 4/18, Gross $2,325,000
#62 Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, Opened 4/18, Gross $1,200,000