We now have an estimate of the cost of the Iraq war. Remember when our administration was blithely proposing that it would require a few billion dollars?
The authors present a damning “Nightline” transcript in which one official, Andrew Natsios, blandly told Ted Koppel that Iraq could be completely reconstructed for only $1.7 billion. (With the war now costing $12.5 billion a month, Natsios’ estimate would have been accurate if he had stipulated that it would pay for four days’ worth of reconstruction. Which, considering the delusional nature of most of the Bush administration’s pre-invasion estimates, may have been how long it thought it would take to rebuild the country.) Other officials settled on a figure of $50 billion to $60 billion. Larry Lindsey, Bush’s economic advisor, went way out on a limb, suggesting that the war might cost $200 billion — a figure derided by then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld as “baloney.”
So how much has it cost? $3 trillion. That’s a bit of money.
In 2005, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the war had so far cost about $500 billion. That figure was obviously far higher than initial Bush administration estimates, but Stiglitz and Bilmes suspected it was still much too low. After researching the issue, they published a paper in January 2006 that conservatively estimated that the true cost of the war would be between $1 trillion and $2 trillion. Even at the time, they regarded that estimate as excessively conservative, but didn’t want to appear extreme. Stiglitz and Bilmes’ book, which is based on that paper, doubles their earlier estimates to $3 trillion, making Iraq the second most expensive war in U.S. history, trailing only World War II, which cost an adjusted $5 trillion (and in which 16.3 million Americans served in the armed forces, with 400,000 dying). But the authors regard even their new figure as conservative: Their estimates range from $2 trillion, in the best-case scenario in which the U.S. withdraws all combat troops by 2012 and fewer veterans need medical and disability pay, to more than $5 trillion. Add in the cost to the rest of the world, and the price tag could exceed $6 trillion.
Bush was the evil incompetent who got this wasted effort started, but I can’t blame him alone: anyone remember that immense principled effort the Democratic party made to oppose the ramp-up to war? Nah, neither do I.
anyone remember that immense principled effort the Democratic party made to oppose the ramp-up to war? Nah, neither do I.
Nope, but I remember about 8500-10,000 of us marching up Hennepin in something like 3-degree weather, while millions of others marched worldwide, to say, “fuck no!”
Didn’t do much good, but….
Using my fancy calculator that’s $10,000 for everyone in the U.S. including infants. I don’t think that’s really worth it. But the real question is whether that “missing money” in Iraq is being used to fund covert actions like the Iran-Contra scandal. I think it’s a possibility that the DoD is financing something like that.
Get ready to feel more of the kneel. It appears the Dems will bow to Bush on retroactive telecomm immunity.
Lucky us.
And as folks in Massachusetts probably know, Natsios was once in charge of…
…wait for it…
The Big Dig.
And don’t think all of that money actually made it into the reconstruction Iraqi infrastructure. Huge amounts of cash have been siphoned off into the off-shore pockets of private contracting firms like Blackwater and Halliburton. It’s flat out robbery of the American taxpayer, merely using the war as cover.
That’s one expensive cakewalk.
Fiscal responsibility? Thousands killed and much more maimed. The infrastructure of a nation ruined. A nation is made a haven for terrorists.
And yes, I am really fucking tired of dems who claimed that the intelligence at hand suggested the course of action dictated by the Bush administration was the way to go.
In my organizational behavior class we just covered group think, and the GW administration’s decision to invade Iraq made an excellent case. How can such a monumental blunder be allowed to happen? Isn’t there some sort of devils advocate involved in the big government think-tank, or, at least, some controls on evaluating foreign policy decisions and their consequences? I know our government thinks its the best, but its about as delusional as those religious fundies.
I am reminded of a joke (unredeemingly sexist by modern standards) illustrating the difference between a million and a billion: There was a rich man who gave his wife a millon dollars, told her to spend a thousand dollars a day, and to come back when it was gone. Three years later she showed up and said there’s no money left, now what? So the man gave her a billion dollars. And his wife went away, and didn’t come back for three thousand years.
For $3 trillion, she wouldn’t have come back for 8.22 million years.
So the man gave her a billion dollars. And his wife went away, and didn’t come back for three thousand years.
she came back?
Like GWB, for more.
Anybody wondering why the US economy is in a.. an… errrr… ‘downturn’?
I agree with Janine. Anyone who paid just a little bit of attention knew that Saddam, while a bad dude, was hated by bin Laden. We could have fixed up Afghanistan. We could have trapped them at Tora Bora or even earlier. Instead we’ve created a place for them to practice and improve tactics against us.
And the worst thing was being accused of being unpatriotic because I disagreed with Bush.
We kid ourselves that we live in a democracy. It should be clear to everyone by now that all we get every 4 years is a chance to vote for the spokesman for the oligarchy. The dems are as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike.
anyone remember that immense principled effort the Democratic party made to oppose the ramp-up to war? Nah, neither do I.
The problem with your 2-(corporate)-party system. There were plenty of voices raised in opposition. But when it comes down to it again, you’ll all rush out and vote for the same not-Bush as the last time, forgetting how spineless and pathetic the Dems are. What do the dems give you that the Repugs don’t? They’re not quite as awful? Do people make any other decisions like that? “Well, this car is not quite as crap as that one, so I’ll spend all my money on it?”
Instead we’ve created a place for them to practice and improve tactics against us.
So, mission accomplished then? What better way to rustle up the fear you need to cover your tracks while you rob the treasury than a BIG SCARY BOGEY MAN. So, one doesn’t exist, well lets create one.
What worries me the most is that GWB doesn’t have some sort of special ability to hyp-mo-tize Republicans in to lockstep and Democrats into bending over- to the contrary, Iraq and GWOT reveal ‘the incredible shrinking congress’ (as my undergrad Government teacher called it).
Congress has been happy to cede power to the executive for a long time. It never got so bad in the past because other presidents showed a little restraint (no doubt less out of principle as out of a failure to imagine just how servile and lickspittle the congress could be).
Now the genie is out. I expect that the next president, irrespective of gender, race, or party, will play the ‘unitary executive’ card every bit as much as GWB. I am expecting to hate the next president for abuse of power, and the next congress for bending over. The flaw is going to take a major fistfight to correct. Congress handed off power over the years to avoid actually having to make hard decisions like declaring war, so my instinct is that the Republic is dead, and America will live out her life under a succession of ever crazier Caesars. I hope not. But that’s what I expect.
Not only did we get to blow a huge wad of cash, but we also created a government that now is playing buddy-buddy with our “worst enemy” the relatively powerless, diminutive Ahmadinejad.
And let’s not forget the theocracy that is the US ally, Saudi Arabia. Most of the hijackers were Saudis. The organization they were part of was and is mostly Saudis. While Osama bin Laden maybe disowned by the Saudi government, he has his backers in the Saudi royal family.
Going into Iraq in the aftermath of the terrorist is akin to invading China in the aftermath of the bombing of Pearl Harbor.
The missing Democratic Party. Yep, you said it.
What bothered me most of all was my senator Dianne Feinstein’s vote in favor of the war. Why? Because she is old enough to remember the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and the Pentagon Papers. Presidents sometimes do lie when they want to go to war.
But, to be fair to Feinstein, most of the adults of her age were also missing in action on this one.
It amazes me how people continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. (After all, and forgive the political comment, here we are again planning to vote for somebody on the basis of character – remember Bush 43 – rather than accomplishment.)
lc
I’m a wee bit confused, the 3 trillion dollar story was over here in the UK about a week ago. Have you guys only just found out?
These wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have done what I hadn’t thought possible; it has brought the end of American superpower so close that I am confident I will see it in my lifetime. Within the next thirty years I expect the centre of politcal gravity to shift away from the North American continent.
This is not necessarily a bad thing. It is good that great powers atrophy and it is often a consequence of their own sins. But it will create more crises. America is set to become an increasingly impotent power like the Ottoman Turks, too puissant to ignore but too weak to have its way. When Americans realize this I expect them to lash out.
My crystal ball is imperfect, but I believe you Yanks should anticipate some rough times ahead. I grew up in the ’60s and ’70s amongst English men and women who could remember when Britain was still Great. There was enormous bitterness and sadness at the loss of national influence. That led to demagogues such as Enoch Powell, who never achieved power, and Margaret Thatcher, who did. Like the British, when your commercial and political empire dissipates, you will have to ride a backlash of illiberal thought.
I fear for your nation.
That said, even this cannot last forever. Having exhausted themselves it seems likely future Americans will turn inward again. The nation will eventually disengage from the rest of the world, safe behind its oceans, and focus on its own poverty and structural failings.
About a year ago I re-read Orwell’s 1984, the first time since I was a teenager growing up in Europe in the 1980’s cold war atmosphere. It was rather shocking, to say the least, to realize how much of it was coming to pass in this day and age. If anyone has the book lying on the shelf, unread for years, do yourself a favor and open it again.
#18:
Not really, the Japanese were actually in China at the time of Pearl Harbour. It would be more like invading West Africa in search of a Japanese army.
Peter Ashby, it is not the case that we just found out, most people who are paying attention know that the amount sent and to be spent is an obscene amount. But it is hard to know exactly how much is spent. There are black accounts for the defense department where not even members of the house and the senate are not allowed to access. Let us just say we know it is bad, we are kept in the dark about how bad it is.
So we have this strange situation where government spending has increased while tax cuts keep being passed. Remember the collapse of the bridge in Minneapolis last year. There are many who place part of the blame on the lack of funds for upkeep of this nation’s infrastructure. If there is any truth to these charges, the future here is truly dire.
Combine that with the appearance that the US dances to Al Qaeda’s tune and it would appear that collectively, our near future is not very rosy.
Don’t forget to give due credit to all the professional Chickenhawks in the Bush Junta and its fawning “free” press.
You have to look long and hard to find someone who wasn’t a draft-avoider or in Dumbya’s case a deserter. Neocons are among the most noteworthy.
Don’t forget what even Dick Cheney said after the First Gulf War, which I also opposed. “Dick Cheney on invading Iraq”
C-Span interview with Dick Cheney, “It’s a quagmire.”
Actually it was going to be FREE!, because the Iraqis would gladly pick up the small tab and pay for it out of their vastly increased oil revenues.
But I do remember one critic pegging it at $1 trillion within the first year or so. And I think within another year someone was saying $2 tril, the second being the indirect military costs.
If anyone [1984] lying on the shelf, unread for years, do yourself a favor and open it again.
Amen. I read it a couple of months ago myself, to be fair, I had never actually read it from cover-to-cover before, but I thought I sort-of had gotten the gist of it, from school, popular culture etc, but boy was I wrong. Its an absolutely DEFINING book, its just so damn spot-on everything.
I also Highly recommend reading/re-reading “Animal Farm” its so ridiculously appropriate to the election this year (hint:CHANGE,CHANGE,CHANGE !)
#23
The Japanese occupied Manchuria. There was plenty of China left to invade. Like all invaders of The Middle Kingdom, the Japanese could not conquer all of China. But I can understand what you mean. Most of Al Qaeda were in the caves of Tora Bora yet Iraq. The reason being that so there would be no mushroom cloud. Call it Dunkirk.
Perhaps I should stop using analogies.
I had a real sinking feeling last night when (while wondering how we are going to demobilize the overpaid and underdisciplined mercenary force that the war has brought into being) I remembered that it was the rise of private armies that ultimately killed the Roman Republic.
Hmmm, “the reason being so there would be no mushroom cloud”. So making the Iranians so shit scared of a US Invasion (along with worries about nuclear armed Israel) that they, quite rationally conclude that they need a credible deterrent has reduced the chance of nuclear war has it? As a policy that one had the opposite effect, didn’t it? Oh and pace the North Koreans on that one. After one member of the club you didn’t ask to join is taken out, the message is easy to spot.
The problem will be aggravated when our half-century bubble based on shipping our treasure to foreign lands as fast as we can in order to Have Nice Stuff Cheap Now comes home to roost, and more trouble when climate change starts switching the haves and have-nots around when it comes to water resources and farmland.
People aren’t going to be happy when The Great Bubble bursts.
Actually, underfunded infrastructure maintenance is a problem we’ve known about for decades. I think it must have been 20 years ago when I first read the ghastly total for what it would cost to bring all the country’s bridges up to date.
(Ghastly by the standards of the day, at any rate. I don’t recall seeing a “tr” in front of whatever illions it was.)
Peter, I should have explained the context of the quote about the mushroom cloud. It was the rational Condoleezza Rice gave for the invasion of Iraq. She argued that if Iraq was not invaded, the next terror attack on the US might be have a mushroom cloud and we cannot afford to take the chance. This despite the fact there was no Iraqi connection. And yes, are fine administration still tries to connect Iraq and Al Qaeda by pointing at “Al Qaeda In Iraq”. But Al Qaeda In Iraq is not Al Qaeda and did not exist before the invasion.
“she came back?”
Of course. She knew a good thing when she saw one!
My best buddy and I have a pair of Nerf dart guns. Whenever G-Dub-the-Shrub’s smirking face shows up on TV, it’s open season.
Not that it does any real good, but it does take out some of the frustration. And we don’t have to worry about stuff like those pesky lethal injections.
Given that the population of Iraq is approximately 28 million, that figure of $3 trillion could be seen thus. That’s over $100,000 per Iraqi. Imagine if that money were used to bribe them?
What a bloody waste.
Let’s not forget the balance score card of this $3 trillion war ;
1. improve geopolitical stability in the middle east : FAIL
2. reduce influence of terrorist networks : FAIL
3. build a modern democratic Iraq : FAIL
4. save lives : FAIL
(>4000 American soldiers dead, >100,000 Iraqis dead)
5. stimulate Amercian economy : FAIL
6. reduce American debt : FAIL
But I could think of one achievement :
1. make a few shareholders of a few American corporations much richer : PASS
And as the article mentions, if the USA had used only a small fraction of that amount for a Marshall Plan for the Middle East, that “might actually have succeeded in winning the hearts and minds of the people there”, I could imagine that this would have been more efficient in passing the above 6 criterias…
Oh but I know, I’m French, so obviously, that makes me Anti-American.
Bobby said:
Just to depress you even further another major factor was the fact that despite the theoretical democracy of the Late Roman Republic power in reality was the exclusive property of a few rich families who were the only ones with the money to run the political campaigns to ensure that their candidates gained office.
This led to a complete breakdown of respect for the political process which allowed unelected military men to take power by force under the guise of helping “the man on the street” against the elitist establishment.
Hail to the Chief.
Having close-up Vietnam War experience and 1st hand experience with the lies lies lies and even bigger lies our elected officials and their suck-up Generals could get the American sheeple to buy in the name of “our” patriotic duty to “fight the enemy there” and “support the troops” this current mess should not surprise me even a wee bit. But it does (a bit) because I thought enough of us grey hairs would have the nightmare of Vietnam urging us to reason to have just said NO! and made it stick. Guess that was naive wishful thinking.
Without an artful transition except in my mind let me say I think that god belief and institutions that feed on and in turn self-servingly market and promote it are major factors in this in the USA.
In a broad sense “religion” makes people somewhat immune to the dictates of their own good sense and critical fact-based reason, their spirit of independence, and their inclination to have healthy disrespect for authority that a good democracy requires, and it sanctions lazy thinking. It also glorifies martyrdom – a major factor in motivating warriors when no immediate threat is present!
In narrower but extremely significant sense it gives the 30% of hard-wired right-wing-authoritians a sanctioned “atta boy” and undue leverage points for collective influence over the political landscape that far exceed what their actual specific number would otherwise allow.
Again without giving you all anything but a brain fart of a thought, I say for a country to really fuck itself up and others that it touches it needs religion tightly woven in its fabric or a madman that came to power via the road religion of some sort paved. Secular free-thinking countries without orthodoxy as a goal do bad things and have bad people, but never on the grand scale of “religiously” charged countries.
BTW I say dogmatic institutional communism, Fascism, the premise of the Rising Sun of Japan, etc. — all religions in essence. God belief per se not required; dogmatic hierarchical operating systems are.
Bobby said:
Yes, we must’ve been the first invasion force in history that not only blithely assumed that the people being invaded would be delighted to be subjected to air raids on a nightly basis and then occupied but then would happily pay for the priviledge.
Don Smith said:
Agreed, in fact given the monumental nature of the blunder and the fact that it was so easy to spot it coming I’m amazed that no conspiracy theorist has (as far as I know) yet come out with the idea that Dubya was in fact a paid Al Quaeda aagent all along. he’s certainly done more to advance their case than it’s leadership could possibly have managed on their own.
Sorry! Spelling error, I meant advance their cause.
Lilly,
there is no need for a conspiracy theory to understand that a US government (or any government) whose complete strategy is based on a so called war-on-terror has absolutely no interest in making sure that the threat of terrorism is reduced.
The fun part is that despite this evident conflict of interest, McCain is going to continue the wonderful tradition that he has inhereted from his predecessors. One just needs to listen to the usual FauxNews commentators (hey Rove is one of them now) to see what is going to happen in the next 8 months. It’s all going to be a repeat of the last two elections, creating the illusion that McCain is best to defend America from terrorism.
How many Americans will have learned the lesson ? We’ll see, but I wouldn’t be too optimistic…
Is it just me, or why is the Iraq war so incredibly expensive? Compare the figures with WWII: 16.3 million people serving across the globe. How can the 150,000 in Iraq be so expensive? Is it merely rising salaries and more expensive gadgetry?
I think you left out the savage corporatism that currently masquerades as benign free market capitalism. Of all the stupid fundamentalist dogmas I can’t think of any that are stupider and more destructive long term than the mantra of never ending economic growth.
Negentropyeater said:
I think you might be be giving the Bush administration too much credit here.
Given their current form I doubt they would be able to reason as far as you can here. It looks to me like they are genuinely trying to win “the war on terror”, the only problem is they haven’t a clue how to do it and refuse to listen to people who might be able to help them, so keep on making things worse.
Generally, if there is a choice between cock up and conspiracy, the smart money is on cock up (and in the case of the current administration this is even better advice than usual).
Lilly,
It looks to me like they are genuinely trying to win “the war on terror”
Of course not. So many governements throughout history have taken advantage of this. The architects of this whole war-on-terror strategy (Rove, Rumsfeld and Co) are far from stupid. The threat of terror, wherever in the world gives governments a blank check to pursue their war-mongering, people-controlling strategies. It works or has worked in the USA, Pakistan, Russia, Indonesia, Philippines, Britain, etc…
There is nothing new, no new recipie, just some not-so-stupid-but-ill-minded politicians who count on the fact that citizens in their great majority have never learned history, nor have any clue of how the real world outside of their neighbourhoods looks like.
Iraq: A Hopeless Cause
It has been far to long and I am sick and tired of our country fighting a war we don’t need. With all the problems in our country, why are we concerning ourselves more with others. It has been 4 1/2 years too long and we need to take action NOW!!!! The Bush Administration needs to take a closer look at their Bible, “remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:5) While America has been paying attention to every other country, the U.S. has been experiencing economic problems, unemployment, a stalled housing market, and a growing deficit. Every day we fight this war all of those problems listed worsen, and as they worsen our country fails it’s citizens more and more. If we don’t end this war now it will never end. The world is moving to fast for us to waste time on meaningless conflicts.
Negentropyeater said:
Then how come they managed to botch things quite so badly that it cost Rumsfeld his job? Not to mention the damage this whole escapade had done to the US’s economy and international standing. This is certainly not the “new American Century” the neocons had in mind.
If this exercise was one in nefarious thought control it just seems to be so badly implemented that I can’t believe the people behind it are as intelligent as you seem to think, which is why I tend to go with cock up. I just find it hard to believe that a group of otherwise intelligent people could have simultaneously suffered so disastrous a drop in IQ.
…who are the government.
We’re not you idiot. We just need the oil to run our economy.
I keep, pinned to my office door, a cartoon in which these lines are spoken:
“I’ve declared a war on terror. And I’m going to win. I know I am, because I know a secret, and it’s simply this.
“No matter what your government tells you- don’t be afraid.”
If there’s a war on terror, you’ve already won it if you’re not terrified. If on the other hand you’re so scared of evil brown people that your Constitution is running down your leg- you might be a Republican.
I really am disappointed at the effects that BSD (Bush Derangement Syndrome) continues to exert on otherwise smart people. By today’s pricing, Iraq has $30 trillion dollars of proven oil reserves. Hmmmm…$3 trillion for $30 trillion…still a workable deal, if we ignore the deaths and suffering, some of which would have happened anyway, but still…
EVERYTHING the US does in the Middle East is about the oil. The picture linked-to below is not an insignificant portrayal of our “way of life”:
http://www.civicactions.com/sites/home2.civicactions.net/files/map01_1024.jpg
Look at human history. Humans only go to war over economic interests, usually gussied up in excuses about other more honorable sounding motivations. The real tragedy is that “we” didn’t get to have a real national discussion about whether or not it would have been a better investment to put that $3 trillion into alternative energy sources. But either way, we have to invest in -something- to keep the lights on.
Iraq: A Hopeless Cause
It has been far to long and I am sick and tired of our country fighting a war we don’t need. With all the problems in our country, why are we concerning ourselves more with others. It has been 4 1/2 years too long and we need to take action NOW!!!! The Bush Administration needs to take a closer look at their Bible, “remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:5) While America has been paying attention to every other country, the U.S. has been experiencing economic problems, unemployment, a stalled housing market, and a growing deficit. Every day we fight this war all of those problems listed worsen, and as they worsen our country fails it’s citizens more and more. If we don’t end this war now it will never end. The world is moving to fast for us to waste time on meaningless conflicts.
Lilly,
of course it is a losing strategy, I know that, you know that. But ask all those who are going to vote for McCain under the illusion that he is best suited to defend America and hunt down the terrorists, if they also know that.
And again, you don’t know what their personal objectives were. Keeping power for 8 years, and maybe another 8, and in the meantime ensuring that a small group of large shareholders of military/oil corporations increase their combined market value by a few trillion dollars is not a bad result per say (for them).
“War profiteering is treason.” -Harry Truman
Corporate welfare/unregulated market capitalism has nothing to do with never-ending economic growth; the system has repeatedly shown itself to be finitely resilient in terms of recovering readily from being abjectly pillaged.
At the price of a ruined US economy that will take their share price down with it if, as seems likely, it hurtles towards recession?
Also, eight years in power (particularly considering the fact that oth houses are Democrat controlled so that power is somewhat limited anyway) ain’t that much compared with the many years out of power they’re going to suffer now the disastrous consequences of their policies have become apparent (yes, I know that John McCain is also Republican but he’s hardly likely to have people from the Bush regime at his side is he – during the whole campaign he’s been acting like he’s allergic to the guy)?
I’m sorry if I seem to be an apologist for the Bush regime, I’m really not and I have no illusions that the oil in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East was not a factor in the decision to invade Iraq. I just think that it was considered more in the line of a tasty little bonus, rather than the main reason for doing it.
Certainly from the UK perspective it looked like both Bush and Blair had managed to genuinely convince themselves that invading Iraq was the way to go and remain determinedly deaf and blind to all evidence that contradicted their views. That I think is the real crime behind the invasion of Iraq, that they went to war based on what they wanted to believe, rather than on what the evidence they had access to entitled them to believe.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence.
Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
Don’t be too cavalier about tossing around the epithet “evil”. There’s a big difference between “evil” and “dumb”, even if it’s frequently hard to tell.
“Is it just me, or why is the Iraq war so incredibly expensive? Compare the figures with WWII: 16.3 million people serving across the globe. How can the 150,000 in Iraq be so expensive? Is it merely rising salaries and more expensive gadgetry?”
Given that a draft wold be political suicide, the US has been going to absurd lengths to try to substitute technology for troop numbers.
They’ve also, more commendably, gone to enormous lengths to minimise American casualties. But that has meant, for example, enormous amounts of resupply being done by air at massive cost.
We could have saved some lives if we just cut Halliburton, Blackwater, the oil companies, and Bush’s friends a check for 3 trillion.
I’m about to go to the polls today here in Texas. The choice is rather bleak:
1) Socialist
2) The wife of Monica’s boyfriend
3) RINO
4) Theocrat
The one candidate who is seriously interested in restoring the US to a constitutional republic doesn’t stand a chance, but I’m going to vote for Ron Paul anyway. Any other choice is a wasted vote.
Judging by your claim to believe the Ron paul wants to restore the US as a constitutional republic, I gather the main appeal for you is his support for decriminalizing drugs including crack?
Rob Paul supporters are delusional.
He doesn’t even have the support the Perot had.
Funny.
From #59
“2) The wife of Monica’s boyfriend”
See, I just don’t get that sort of thing. I didn’t vote for Hillary, but not because her husband got a couple blowjobs from some girl. Who gives a shit about that? Why would that even come into your mind when trying to decide whether or not someone should be president?
It is incredible how right was Orwell describing totalitarianisms. Despite the fact that he was mocking Stalin and the USSR, you think he depicts accurately the current situation of the US. At the same time, I, here in Venezuela, about to go to a stupid war based on ideological reasons and surrounded by an authoritarian government that claims to be on People’s side while it takes away every bit of liberty and rights for fighting Jones, I mean, the Empire, also feel that Animal Farm is a super metaphor for the hell that is going on here.
How ironic. I guess tyrants of every ideology and color act pretty much the same, besides minor details.
Thanks for bringing this up PZ.
I had written something last year on the cost of the war in terms of NIH funding. PZ’s post inspired me to revive and update it. Sorry for the shameless plug, but for those interested, it is at http://yacketyyakia.blogspot.com/2008/03/cost-of-war-in-terms-of-nih-funding.html
etc.
When one takes into account the monetary costs of all of those failures, it would not be surprising if the total net loss from the Iraq war rises to $100 trillion dollars.
Since a couple people upthread recommended 1984, I’d like to recommend that anyone interested in understanding the intersection of terrorism, conservative agendas, and abject stupidity read The Secret Agent, by Joseph Conrad, published way back in 1907. One of the most prescient books I’ve ever read.
And look, it’s public domain!
(Oh, and confidential to commenter #59: You’ve been watching TV again, haven’t you?)
Lilly, minor point perhaps, but the GOP controlled both the Senate and the House for the first six years of Dubya’s administration. His power was not limited in any meaningful way, not even (apparently) by that “goddamn piece of paper” our founders coughed up about 220 years ago. Now, after giving the Democrats the finger for six years, he’s crying about partisanship and urging cooperation so that things can “get done” – as if the loyal opposition is simply in the way. Which, from his perspective, it is and always will be.
I agree completely with your assessment of “the real crime” behind the war.
However, I believe you are mistaken about the oil, if only to the degree that the phrase “tasty little bonus” understates the reality. The oil provided the primary motivation for the invasion of Iraq and, indeed, virtually everything that goes on between the US and any oil-rich nation, notably Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Iran. I realize this is arguable, but I want you to understand that I’m not part of the Lefty chorus which has spent six years shrieking about the US attempt to “steal” the oil from Iraq.
The Neocons agenda is driven primarily by the perceived need to defend and promote US interests abroad, by use of military force if necessary. “US interests” in Iraq (and Iran) can be summarized by these two goals:
1. To ensure access to oil.
2. To eliminate dangerously hostile regimes.
The two goals are inextricably intertwined, but the primary goal is to have US-friendly regimes in these oil-producing countries by any means necessary, be it diplomacy, economic pressure, military threat, or by US-assisted regime change. Oil is power, in both senses of the word, and political situations that negatively impact our access to oil conflict with American “interests”. This is a truth that transcends partisanship, indeed transcends politics completely, but which the Neocons are more than happy to address by way of the application of US Military Might, much to the chagrin of half the population of the US (more like three-quarters, now) and virtually all of the rest of the world.
Remember, boys and girls:
* $35B to send sick kids to the doctor: zOMFG that’s SOCIALISM why do you hate America you traitor!
* Unlimited funds to blow shit up in Iraq: HELL YEAH go git them feelthy Ay-raybs MR DUBYA! YEEEEEEE-HAAAW! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
Rove, Rumsfeld, Cheney, these are not stupid people. Rumsfield’s poor handling of the Iraq war itself I’m willing to write off as incompetence (different than stupidity). But you’d have a tough time convincing me that the agenda behind the war is anything but planned. It was a power grab, pure and simple.
Anyone remember before 9/11, when Bush tried to open up Alaskan wild land for drilling. He was soundly defeated. What was one of the first things he did after 9/11, Congress promised bipartisan support of the President? He opened up Alaskan parklands for drilling, making his cronies richer.
I’m not claiming conspiracy. I think these folks saw an opportunity to cow the populace, allowing them to seize greater control and they took it. These folks knew the power J Edgar Hoover wielded because of his domestic spying operations when they instituted their wiretapping policy. They know the fear torture inspires. Their policies are well thought out, well researched, and wholly calculated to benefit them, without regard for we the people.
I’ll end my little rant with this:
Kseniya said:
Agreed, but my point was that his power has been limited for the last two years however little he likes it and in the event of McCain being elected president the GOP’s power will remain strictly limited whilst the Democrats hold both houses. Whilst I don’t doubt Dubya would dearly love this not to be the case and tries to weasel his way past it any time he thinks he can get away with it, the point remains that it is very much the situation he and his neocon allies are in, however many tantrums they care to throw.
I’d agree that “little” was an unwarranted understatement on my part to describe the political effect the oil in the Middle East has on politics (if there was any doubt about that the nauseating spectacle that is the West’s relationship with Saudi Arabia would be enough), of course it is a consideration. I’m just not sure it was enough of one for the Bush administration to utterly concoct the whole sorry charade that was the excuse to go to war.
I think it was a mixture of self-delusion (this is the right thing to do, therefore we must do it and we’ll ignore each and every scrap of information that tells us otherwise because it’s clearly tainted, otherwise it would agree with us), a sense of unfinished business from the last time we went into Iraq (“Saddam tried to kill my Daddy” e.t.c.) and a desire to make a mark on history (Tony Blair appeared to believe that he was the second Winston Churchill throughout). Oil no doubt played it’s part as well, but I’m not convinced it was the overriding consideration.
It’s been said before but (particularly in any enterprise that involves George W Bush) incompetence is probably a better bet here than conspiracy.
#68 sums up beautifully the totality of current American intelligence vis a vis politics. So simple. So pathetic. So tragic.
War on Terrorism is like the War on Poverty, the No-Child-Left-Behind fallacy, the Build-Cities-Below-Sea-Level planning, the Buy-Everything-On-Credit bubble.
The California Solution? When in debt, replace your governor with one who will get you into 3 times the debt.
#68
What is really sad is that your post will actually be the conversation held by a few of my coworkers today at lunch. “If those stupid Dems get elected its all over for us!! They’ll force health care on everyone and the tax payers will suffer!”
“Well what about eh 3 trillion dollars pumped into a war that no one is getting any benefit from?”
“WE HAVE TO DO THAT!! FIGHT THEM OVER THERE NOT OVER HERE!! CAN’T CRITICIZE OUR PRESIDENT IN A WAR!!”
Its honestly become a routine.
Lilly,
1. the US could very well tumble into recession whilst the Military/Oil conglomerates continue to see a rise in profits. Nothing magical about that.
2. the neocons will only suffer being out of power if American voters keep them out. With the average level of education that most voters have on all matters from history to science, and the average exposure on any foreign culture and understanding of the world outside of the USA, I sincerely doubt that the neocons will find it that difficult to gain back power, if not this election, or within the next few elections. Keeping a majority of Americans focussed on a healthy mix of religious nutteries, american idol and superbowl is just the perfect way to keep them in business for a long, long time.
3. Am I the only one who seems to have observed a clear shift in McCain’s rethoric since he has secured his party’s nomination ? Suddenly, he is now a “true conservative”, defending the war-on-terror, and for sure, accepting a lot of advice from the usual suspects / Neocon thinkers and, and a lot of money from the usual interest groups /lobbyists. Do you have any reasons to believe that if McCain were to be elected, the neocons and the interest groups they represented and have made phenomenally rich during the last eight years would loose any of their influence ?
4. The war-on-terror made sure that military spending goes up, and the price of oil goes up. A nice combination which ensured that a few dozen companies increased their market value by a few trillion dollars during that period; that’s the cake. Securing Iraqi oil was indeed just the little cherry, on the cake. Even if that cherry is still not secured, the cake is very well and very fat indeed.
5. I’m always amazed at all these people who have bought the myth that Bush was just a little bit dumb and honestly always thought that this strategy would help to keep America safe and fight terrorism. You can’t be that dumb if you manage to get elected twice. And you still believe that they remained deaf and blind in front of the evidence, but on another hand history has never provided numerous examples of governments that manufactured evidence to suit their needs. And as if this administration and the obvious interest groups it protects have no history of producing fake evidence for anything from Global Warming deniers, Toxic waste exports, Wateboarding techniques and so on. They don’t seem to me to be THAT naïve and innocent.
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.
Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.
Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
–Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
Lilly,
Re: Bush, the Dems, McCain and the immediate future of the GOP. Yes, I see your point, and completely agree.
Re: The Oil. Well… yeah… As I said, it’s arguable… and you could be right.
Re: Incompetence vs. conspiracy, I’d say there’s no need to limit ourselves to an either/or.
Consider these points:
1. The policy of regime change in Iraq predates Dubya’s ascendancy.
2. The push to implement that policy was a top priority of the Bush administration from day one. Long before 9/11, he was enthusiastically pushing his staff to find some justification to invade Iraq. Meetings were held. Memos were written. A plan for dividing up the oil distrubution rights amongst western oil companies in a post-Saddam Iraq was circulated. We’re talking Feb 2001 here.
3. The undeniable level of incompetence in the execution of the policy does not exclude the possibility of a conspiracy to advance the policy. Has it not been determined that the Nigerian yellow-cake uranium document was a forgery? Doesn’t that one fact alone imply a conspiracy at some levels? Is it not obvious that many of the players in the ranks of the neocons are Machiavellians for whom the ends will always justify the means?
I agree that Bush and Blair saw what they wanted to see, and may have honestly accepted the evidence as legitimate and compelling – but, even if true, that does not absolve any of their subordinates from some complicity in fabricating or distorting the information used by our leaders to sell the war to our legislators and to the public.
With that said, I admit that the prioritization question isn’t particularly important. There was more than one reason driving the policy of regime change in Iraq, and protecting access to the supply of Iraqi oil was among them. On that we surely agree, and only a fool would dispute it. I think it’s equally clear, however, that the effort to justify the invasion was not, from top to bottom, entirely pure.
Negentropyeater said:
I agree – they’re not innocent little lambs, there is a difference between innocence and the willful and deliberate ignorance that actively refuses to listen to and tries to smear or censor any evidence that contradicts your viewpoint (as anyone with a passing familiarity with the creationist trolls that pop up here from time to time can attest). I think that they simply convinced themselves they were right and, like any true believer, were willing to do whatever it took to make sure they got their way, including judicial use of the “noble lie” where appropriate.
As I’ve said I think oil was also a factor, but I simply don’t think it was the main one. From the start Bush and Blair were acting like it was some kind of religious Crusade and Blair at least was clearly thinking in those terms and you simply don’t get that way over commodities like oil (unless of course you are a fantastic actor, although I could believe this of Blair, Bush – not so much).
Kseniya said:
Absolutely agreed – god and mammon, despite what the Bible may say, tend to make very good bedfellows, particularly in politics and particularly when you have politicians “on a mission” involved.
BTW, I’m not talking of all these conspiracy theories that suggest that those behind 9/11 weren’t the 19 official culprits.
All I’m saying is that this one event, which might well have been engineered the way we think it has, provided them with a beautiful opportunity to develop a strategy which had only two clear objectives, making sure military spending goes up, and making sure oil prices go up.
These two objectives have been met, with great success, and I see no reason why they won’t continue to be met. Because whatever happens, americans will continue to live under a psychotic fear of islamic terrorism, and will continue to consume more oil than all other developped nations combined.
#59 TX CHL Instructor wrote:
I was very impressed with Ron Paul’s grassroots campaign in the beginning. He has lost all credibility for me, however, with his recent public statement that he does not accept evolution and his co-sponsorship of House Resolution 888, with its multiple distortions and outright lies concerning the founding of the U.S.A. as a Christian nation, stating himself that our Constitution is “replete with references to God.”
At the very least, that’s one more Texas GOP vote not going to Huckabee, so I’m grateful for that.
Yeah, it’s obscene that some of the oil companies have posted record profits – PROFITS – over the past few years. Sure, revenues go up when prices go up, but… profits? Are profits supposed to rise when the CODB rises? Aren’t we seeing a failure of the capitalist system here? Where’s the overall benefit to society? Where’s the trickle-down? Where’s the Invisible Hand? Why are school budgets getting cut? Why are so many children uninsured? Why are so many bridges and highways in disrepair? Why is the sky blue? Where do babies come from?
Kseniya,
GWB and the neocons single biggest “achievement” :
ExxonMobil, everyone’s favorite oil company, is set to announce 4th quarter earnings of $10.37 billion – a paltry $111 million a day !
Kseniya said:
Apparently, like god, if the invisible hand of the market appears to have forgotten you in favour of the billionaire’s children a few miles away it’s your own damn fault – in this case for being stupid enough to be born into poverty.
Maybe it’s the market’s way of punishing people inconsiderate enough not to be able to afford to fly instead? [/snark]
I think it’s called patriotism. Have an unthinking reverence for your country, confuse your country and its government, et voilà…
Two words: Yuán, Qīng…
The funny thing is that this is the approach that was taken in Afghanistan. Remember how all those warlords immediately stopped fighting? They were simply bought. I must say it was a pretty good investment.
But no, Fearless Flightsuit wanted to be a War President…
Expensive gadgetry, Halliburton, Bechtel, and Blackwater…
Sure, but as long as the drilling facilities and the pipelines keep getting blown up, none of those trillions is going to hit anyone’s coffers…
Bullshit. Humans go to war about either 1) economic interests, or 2) stupidity, or 3) both of the above at once. This list has no particular order.
LOL. Pray tell, when was the last time Obama called for nationalizing the steel industry? He’s not even calling for nationalizing the railway companies, for crying out loud. Obama is an ordinary centrist by any measures except US ones.
McCain, on the other hand, is an archconservative. Huckabee is the RINO here, and so is Captain Unelected.
Somalia! Somalia! Somalia! Hooooooraaaaaaayyyy!!!
Failure to recognize one’s complete incompetence in advance, is that not stupidity?
Bad translation. Should be “vote or no vote”.
It was for Wolfowitz. He said so. I’ll post the quote and reference later.
I think it’s called patriotism. Have an unthinking reverence for your country, confuse your country and its government, et voilà…
Two words: Yuán, Qīng…
The funny thing is that this is the approach that was taken in Afghanistan. Remember how all those warlords immediately stopped fighting? They were simply bought. I must say it was a pretty good investment.
But no, Fearless Flightsuit wanted to be a War President…
Expensive gadgetry, Halliburton, Bechtel, and Blackwater…
Sure, but as long as the drilling facilities and the pipelines keep getting blown up, none of those trillions is going to hit anyone’s coffers…
Bullshit. Humans go to war about either 1) economic interests, or 2) stupidity, or 3) both of the above at once. This list has no particular order.
LOL. Pray tell, when was the last time Obama called for nationalizing the steel industry? He’s not even calling for nationalizing the railway companies, for crying out loud. Obama is an ordinary centrist by any measures except US ones.
McCain, on the other hand, is an archconservative. Huckabee is the RINO here, and so is Captain Unelected.
Somalia! Somalia! Somalia! Hooooooraaaaaaayyyy!!!
Failure to recognize one’s complete incompetence in advance, is that not stupidity?
Bad translation. Should be “vote or no vote”.
It was for Wolfowitz. He said so. I’ll post the quote and reference later.
Near as I can tell, that $3 trillion is roughly the same as the UK’s entire public spend. For three years.
Ministry of Defence budget only comes out at $63 billion..
Suddenly I feel poor…
Then again, we have the problem of our government committing more and more of our troops accross the world, at the same time as cutting the military budget. One more example of Labour trying to do two contradictory things at once…
We could be watching the fall of American civilization. Don’t laugh. All civilizations fall eventually. There has never been one that lasted. In my life time (almost), we’ve seen two, the British empire and the sudden collapse of the Soviet empire.
Our civilization will fall someday. If that doesn’t make it obvious, Toynbee said that 18 of 22 civilzations collapsed from within, they rotted.
The question is whether it will be soon or 50 years from now. I don’t have the answer except maybe it is now. Things are not good and getting worse. Food shortages worldwide are starting to appear due to record grain prices, oil is at a record high, we are in debt up to our eyeballs, the economy is definitely going into recession. A few white collar workers I know have been laid off, one couple lost their home in the subprime mess, a family friend’s kid is dead in Iraq from an IED. Our leadership dem or rep is pathetic, Bushes approval rating is 19% and the congress is about the same.
I’m sure when Rome fell most citizens just watched it, couldn’t believe it was happening, and were suprised in the end.
Historically Americans have been resilent and clever. We might manage to pull out of our dive. Just have to wait and see.
Raven said:
Well this European certainly hopes so, not least considering that the biggest new economic power seems to be China at the moment.
Unfortunately the Romans also had a history of being resilient and clever – it didn’t seem to do them much good in the end.
Just follow the money and all true motivations are revealed:
http://www.civicactions.com/sites/home2.civicactions.net/files/map01_1024.jpg
A draft for this speech said “military-industrial-congressional complex”.
I’m just saying.
“The fight against stupidity has only just begun”
A draft for this speech said “military-industrial-congressional complex”.
I’m just saying.
“The fight against stupidity has only just begun”
The real mistake was to abandon Afghanistan after they got the Russians out, instead of helping them to rebuild an equitable, democratic country where people didn’t have to sell opium to survive. Instead, it just dropped off the screen–literally.
Is it just a coincidence that the cost of the war is almost exactly the increase in US national debt under Bush?
BTW it’s hilarious to see anyone claim that any of your presidential candidates is a “socialist.” But at least under Obama the US might take a few halting steps in the direction of universal health care, only a half-century behind every other industrialised democracy.
Instead, it just dropped off the screen–literally.
Which happened all over again once the buildup to invade Iraq started. The Taliban is on the rise again with their happy-fun guerilla warfare, and poppy production is soaring. Great Job Shrubbie!
(Or perhaps I should have translated that as “struggle” rather than as “fight”.)
Don’t say that. The gardeners in the highlands of New Guinea have been going on for 10,000 years now… They’ve never developed monarchy, though. Nor MORONARCHY or oiligarchy (correct spelling).
Really? Wow. Cool :-)
Or did you mean 29 %?
(Or perhaps I should have translated that as “struggle” rather than as “fight”.)
Don’t say that. The gardeners in the highlands of New Guinea have been going on for 10,000 years now… They’ve never developed monarchy, though. Nor MORONARCHY or oiligarchy (correct spelling).
Really? Wow. Cool :-)
Or did you mean 29 %?
Not a half. A whole century, or a bit more in at least some cases.
—————
Let me repeat comments 90 and 92…
Not a half. A whole century, or a bit more in at least some cases.
—————
Let me repeat comments 90 and 92…
Or did you mean 29 %?
No, a recent poll actually had it at 19%.
I remember Paul Wellstone, the only Democratic Senator up for reelection who opposed the war. You can read his statement here.
Much more remarkable though, was his speech on the Senate floor against the first Gulf war in 1991. I believe he was quite prescient:
Read it in its entirety here.
I remember Paul Wellstone, the only Democratic Senator up for reelection who opposed the war.
The period after he died, then watching that wretch of a human Norm Coleman take his seat, was just a horrible, horrible time. I drove up to the Capitol with a friend the day he died, and just sat in the rotunda sobbing. That was just such an awful period.
I just hope Al Franken shoves a steel-toed Doc Marten straight up Normie’s ass.
Ugh. Last night Alberta re-elected the provincial Progressive Conservatives (yes, we all know it’s an oxymoron) for another ~four years, meaning we’ve effectively had one party in control for 37 years.
Given the apparent intelligence of the average mook in this province, it’s a good thing we’ve already got oil otherwise I’m sure we’d have denounced Saskatchewan as enemies of freedom and followed the American example.*
*Not like there’s not a precedent. We’re the only province in Canada that’s working hard to END universal healthcare.
I remember Paul Wellstone….
I’d heard politicians like that existed, but never actually encountered one until I read the speeches Sonja linked.
So, are there still enough left in the wild to constitute a breeding population, or is it pretty well a Baiji situation?
Raven,
I think it is difficult to talk in terms of fall of civilization, or even compare what happened throughout history with the different successive dominant empires, with what is going to happen next wrt to the USA.
First, let’s not forget that when all the great empires of history fell, this was associated with a huge change in territoriality. Now I don’t think this is necessarily going to happen in the case of the USA, unless it splits, through some unlikely secession, into diverse nations.
I think it is more relevant to discuss the likely scenario that the US dominance as the world’s only superpower gives way to a multipolar world, with at least three dominant poles, the USA, the European Union, and China, and a few 2nd tier powers such as Japan, Russia, India or Brazil.
Of course, this process is already well on its way, and the key issue, for the USA, is going to be how competitive it remains vis a vis the EU and China.
The US remains, by far the world’s largest military power, and still holds the currency which dictates most of international trade and investments. But on all other key indicators, economic growth, social welfare, education, scientific research, adaptability to the climate crisis, the USA is gradually falling behind, to #2 or even #3 position. As it sees it’s dominance as a military might, it is questionable wether this will remain a major benefit for long, and as far as the dollar is concerned, if China or a few of the 2nd tier powers were to focus on the Euro as their main investment or trading currency, which is very, very likely to happen within the next few years, the USA would loose one of its key dominating assets.
MAJeff,
If you ever get the chance, visit the memorial to Wellstone outside Eveleth. I visited two years ago, and even though it’s very simple, I got eaten by mosquitos the size of hummingbirds and my wife and I couldn’t stop crying our whole time there, I’m glad I went.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russ_Feingold#War_in_Iraq
Some of them did try. (Feingold also voted against the PATRIOT Act)
“I’m a wee bit confused, the 3 trillion dollar story was over here in the UK about a week ago. Have you guys only just found out?”
Because we Americans have…ooOOoo, pretty thing.
What were we talking about?
Um, multiplying by 1000 at each step shouldn’t it be (very roughly) 3 years, 3 thousand years, 3 million years? Where’d the other five million years come from, interest?
Nevermind. Memo to self: coffee first, then post.
Thanks, MAJeff. The jump from 34 to 19 % is impressive. What can have caused it?
Thanks, MAJeff. The jump from 34 to 19 % is impressive. What can have caused it?
Hell, Mark Twain knew all about it, right down to the rhetoric: Fighting an unjust war.
So, instead of the $10,000 W spent in my name on a war I didn’t want could he pay off the remainder of my student loans and credit card debt? I mean, if you’re going to spend the money anyway, right?
When in doubt look to behaviors. The US Gov. is nothing but a “protection scam” just like the mob runs on chinese restaurants in Brooklyn only way more so. We are being looted by thugs who threaten to and will throw you in jail for not complying.
It can be overcome but will need something like Ghandi’ish tactics in a gorilla manner. For example, drive very slowly on the freeway in the morning and evening rush hours to clog traffic make people late and disrupt commerce…no commerce, no taxes. Another example would be to quit driving cars as I have been. I’ve bought $40 worth of gas in two months and have been using mass transit and walking.
Noam Chomsky who I don’t always agree with nails it pretty good in this article:
http://www.alternet.org/election08/78408/
We are the criminals, we are the enemy!
To make sense of the $3 trillion figure, about half is the interest on the bonds Bush is and has floated to get the money for the war, bonds that will eventually be retired by our grandchildren and great grandchildren. Who owns those bonds? Mostly the Chinese government. By paying them interest we’re financing the expansion of their military. And where does the rest of the money go? Interestingly, most of it goes for material, supplies like gasoline and diesel fuel, new hardware, repairs, building bases, contractors to supply the military and very little to actually pay the soldiers. If we assume the soldiers individually are paid $50,000/year, the payroll for the 150,000 or so we’ve had in Iraq for some time runs to around $7.5 billion/year. Throw in an equal number of support troops and some civilians elsewhere needed for support and you’ve got maybe $15 to $18 billion/year. The balance is goes into the pockets of military suppliers, most of whom are surely friends of or friends of friends of Dubya and Darth Cheney. Why the American population is not more outraged is beyond me.
Thanks, MAJeff. The jump from 34 to 19 % is impressive. What can have caused it?
My guess: outlier in the polls. Most of ’em seem to be in the mid-twentyish range…this one seems a bit of an outlier, but christ the dude is under 20%. That’s worse than Nixon.
Why the American population is not more outraged is beyond me.
IMO, it’s not hard to come up with ideas why, but it IS hard to accept the most likely reasons.
most of the american population would rather forget the whole thing, so long as they can keep on watching TV. I think many also feel themselves “too busy to care”, as they work 60-80 hour work weeks.
Moreover, debt spending is not a new thing to american politics, and Reagan “showed” americans that debt spending “has no serious consequences”. Many in the republican (and likely a goodly amount of demos too) party still think this to be the case, regardless of the massive amount of evidence to the contrary.
The sterotype of the fat-ass american lounging in their reclining chair while staring at the TV likely does fit the majority of americans at this point. Whether it is because of general isolationism, laziness, or simply because they are too tired from working to even care.
It’s an ugly picture most of us who aren’t that way would prefer not to have to look at ourselves.
what’s beyond me is just how long it can last before it crumbles under its own weight.
Bush was the evil incompetent who got this wasted effort started, but I can’t blame him alone: anyone remember that immense principled effort the Democratic party made to oppose the ramp-up to war? Nah, neither do I.
Well, sKerry John was against it before he voted in favor of it before he was against it before he reported for duty at the convention.
Or something like that.
The sterotype of the fat-ass american lounging in their reclining chair while staring at the TV
go figure, right after I post that, Joey shows up to demonstrate for us.
dance, monkey, dance!
David Marjanović, OM, meet 19%:
Posted by: Joe Blow | March 4, 2008 10:28 PM
The sterotype of the fat-ass american lounging in their reclining chair while staring at the TV
go figure, right after I post that, Joey shows up to demonstrate for us.
dance, monkey, dance!
Let’s see…I’m 6 feet tall, 165 pounds, I hardly ever watch television and I don’t have any reclining furniture. Yep, Icky Thing, you got everything right except for the facts, but then why let such trivialities get in the way of a good rant?
By the way, you really should investigate your shift keys. They are at the bottom left and bottom right of your keyboard.
All you need to know about Joe is that he proudly uses as his handle a popular derisive nickname for the American plebian population (the recliner and TV are mere details). I say, leave him alone with his talking points (“Hur hur, I make fun of Kerry! That’ll rile up those libruls!”)
the recliner and TV are mere details
Yes, facts are details, especially in the alleged minds of oh-so-tolerant liberals who like to stereotype everyone who disagrees with them while simultaneously whining about Fox News. That tells you all you need to know about the MoveOn.org Democrites.
the recliner and TV are mere details
I’m glad at least some people are paying attention.
;)
Heh.
(He just doesn’t see the depths of his own hypocrisy, does he?)
I say, leave him alone with his talking points
Ok, Ok.
I promise to stop poking the monkey with a stick.
Joe,
I just have three questions:
1) Where is Osama bin Laden?
2) Where are the WMD?
3) How many yellow ribbon magnets do you have stuck to shit?
Bringing in some reflections on Wellstone/Kerry.
What’s hilarious about cokey joe, is that he sees everything as Dem-Rep in the sort of Ann Coulter nonsensical way. In 2002, when Kerry voted for the authorization, it spawned a write-in campaign among anti-War activists in MA.
I was living in Minnesota that year, as I mentioned above, when Paul Wellstone died. I was going to be in MA on election day, so I had to file an absentee ballot (Wellstone’s name was still on the ballot, so even though it didn’t really hurt too bad to vote for Vice President Mondale, voting against Wellstone was still painful). When I went to the polling place in MA that day with friends who were voting, a couple of people stopped me–noticing my Wellstone button–to talk about the state of affairs.
We liberals cover a range of positions, and though Kerry may have been the Democratic nominee for President in 2004 (and, overall, a pretty decent Senator for those of us in MA) he’s made mistakes, including the vote for authorization. You know what, we dealt with that.
Have you fuckwits dealt with the reality that you were lied to in order to support a war that was wrong, a war that made us less safe, a war that was simply about lining the pockets of certain concerns, a war that had nothing to do with terrorism or weapons? Not that I can tell. All of you cling to your little fairy tales, neglecting the fact that you were wrong the entire time.
It’s too bad there’s no Hell. Joe Blow belongs there.
There were a few of us who steadfastly maintained during the build-up to the invasion that the cost would inevitably top a trillion bucks – NOT counting the economic cost, let alone the qualitative “cost”, of lost lives. Our estimates were almost universally dismissed as the wild exaggerations of “fools”.
Jeff, don’t argue with Joe, he learned how to use the shift key on his keyboard in school, and he’s quite prepared to show you!
Well hey, John Kerry is a traitor and a coward. He should never have gone and faced combat in Vietnam and when he could have bravely served in the reserves back home like Dubya, or spent six years (and four draft deferments) going to school, like Dick Cheney. Instead, he chose to waste his time winning a Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.
On the other hand, Fearless Flightsuit and his loyal men-at-arms sure know how to support the troops. Just lookit, you terrorist-loving MoveOn.org liberals! Read it and weep!
Ask yourself one question, you MoveOn.org Liberal swine-dogs: Do you support the Magnetic Ribbon industry? Or are you a goddamned Commie??!
I know. This is one of those topics, though. There really is no way for me to express the depth of my contempt for people like Joe…the fear I felt about whether my own students would be shipped over; the pain for students who were telling me about five or more good-bye parties; the stories of people who can’t sleep for the nightmares; the students who were promised an education but who find their GI benefits won’t fund a semester; the parents here and in Iraq weeping for dead children; the people tortured by my government…..
This morning, Atrios put up a post about the erasure of the anti-war movement from the narrative about the past 8 years, and played the Dixie Chicks “Not Ready to Make Nice.” Those women had and have it right. We can’t figure out how to fix the shit til we know how fucked up it is.
And I’m still pissed off. Part of why it’s so fucked up is people like Joe living in la-la-land. Those of us who were right the whole fucking time?
………….?
There really is no way for me to express the depth of my contempt for people like Joe
it’s ok, we understand, even if Joe never will, or can.
the problem is indeed that there are simply too many Joes. I think somewhere a threshold was reached about 10 years ago, and now we are doomed to Idiocracy.
It’s why I’m gettin’ outta dodge while the gettin’s good.
The good thing about global warming is that the bad guys will roast, too. the ones in Tex-ass will be among the first to go.
‘there are simply too many Joes’
I recently went to see the ‘The enemy within … Terror in America’ exhibition in the history museum in St. Paul. Quite interesting, but what was disturbing were the interactive displays. The visitors were invited to answer some questions with answers ranging from ‘strongly agree’ to ‘strongly disagree’. It was unsettling to realize that a solid majority of visitors are in favor of executing spies and think the government should be allowed to lock away people indefinitely and without due process when they are suspected of terrorism. One should think that after the US of A is now a proud member of the exclusive list of torturer countries (Mother Jones has a very interesting special on this very topic now), most people should have realized that locking away people without due process eats away the very fabric of democracy. But, apparently, not …
(I am aware that the interactive display are not representative surveys. The occasional school class with testosterone-filled boys who are only too eager to answer questions like that in the most outrageous way possible are bound to skew the results. However, there also was considerable support for governmental action against hate-promoting groups like the KKK, a result not to be expected when a fraction of the audience tries to skew the results deliberately. Additionally, the audience of such a museum is most likely better educated than the average. The reality might thus be even much worse.)
The survey also casts an interesting light on the question why there is so little outcry in this country. Most people apparently seem to think that the WOT was not wrong per se. There is a difference between criticizing the administration because of incompetence or accusing it of having made the wrong decision.
Regarding the motivation of the Bush administration to invade Iraq: Oil was without doubt a major contributor, as was a perceived sense of doing the right thing (and rising the ‘communism-style’ subsidies for the military-industrial complex). But another important factor was hubris (remember, one official boasting about the USA creating the realities that the others are only left to study after the fact?) A hubris that was nurtured during a long time of low-intensity military conflicts in which the USA emerged as the victor. A sense of uniqueness that appears to be shared by a vast fraction of the American populace.
And don’t expect much of the Dems. They will, without doubt, grant the retroactive immunity to the telecommunication companies, thereby erasing any prospect of getting a higher level official locked up in jail for breaking the law.
I think the Dems were a bit craven in not vocally opposing the intervention on principle, but I understand why they largely did not.
1) 1991 showed that the country enjoys a good crisp fight when it wins
2) only 20-30% of the country actually opposed going to war
I remember the polling going in, the vote splits was ~30% “Let’s Roll!”, ~30% “Let’s get UNSC approval”, and 30% “no blood for oil!”.
Immediately after we went in the vote splits changed 65% “hell yeah!” and 35% “wtf?”.
The problem is not our politicians, the problem is us.
The occupation of Iraq stands as an example of why theocrat militarism is far more dangerous than pissant red state school boards who want to teach ID or YEC. At least a million people have been killed in Iraq so far; creationism never killed anyone. It makes no sense to concentrate so much effort fighting red state fuckwits at the local level on ID at the expense of ignoring religious crusades at the federal and global levels.
I can’t disagree with your basic values or priorities, Vagrant, but I’m puzzled as to why you choose this thread, of all threads, to claim that this community is ignoring the very topic of the thread.
Hey. Think globally, act locally. The incremental breaking down of educational standards at the local level, the subversion of the science advisory process at the highest level of government, the creeping ignorance exhibited in the general population – all of which are, in part, the results of the same kind of faith-based disingenuity that drives the likes of George W. Bush – they’re all aspects of the same fight. No?
I just have three questions:
1) Where is Osama bin Laden?
I don’t know…in your bed, perhaps? Why don’t you ask Bill Clinton, who had in fall 2000 CIA video showing bin Laden at Tarnak Farm? Clinton elected not to take any action. I guess there weren’t any impeachment proceedings from which to distract the nation’s attention at the time.
2) Where are the WMD?
You were aware, were you not, that weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq? No? Then I would suggest familiarizing yourself with David Kay’s October 2003 testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and the National Ground Intelligence Center report from 2006.
3) How many yellow ribbon magnets do you have stuck to shit?
As far as I am aware (I haven’t personally made an attempt), magnets don’t “stick” to feces; hence, the answer is “none”
It’s why I’m gettin’ outta dodge while the gettin’s good.
Really? Where are you going? Cuba? North Korea? China? I know…you could move into Alec Baldwin’s basement. What? He didn’t leave the country after all? Just damn!
…pile of hair clippings…
cleanup on aisle 5!
…pile of hair clippings…
cleanup on aisle 5!
Yes, more stream-of-consciousness nonsense from the Icky Thing with No Shift Key. Please do us all a favor and have your doctor re-fill your prescriptions.
Oh yes. The October, 2003 testimony.
It’s time to take the blinders off, Joe.
(full story here)
If you don’t like the Guardian, why not read Kay’s own words, delivered before the US Senate in January of 2004:
(full story here)
Hold that thought: I haven’t read the 2006 stuff yet. My bad.
stream-of-consciousness nonsense
feeling self-conscious tonight?
Well, that’s very interesting:
On one hand:
And on the other:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html
(That’s all I have time for at the moment.)
feeling self-conscious tonight?
No, I’m feeling very entertained by your successful attempts at self-parody.
*yawn*
you’re still just a pile of hair clippings.
More on what Duelfer and Kay found here.
you’re still just a pile of hair clippings.
Yawn!
How original! Did you come up with it all by yourself or did mommy and daddy help you?
Really Joe, A world Net Daily article?
You are pathetic.
Really Joe, A world Net Daily article?
Oh, that’s right, I forgot. Only Officially Sanctioned MoveOn.org Talking Points ™ are allowed. Well, Daily Kos, too, I guess.
You are pathetic.
Of course, you don’t actually attempt to refute anything therein. You probably didn’t even read it. You are worse than pathetic.
we use toilet paper to wipe our asses with, joey. we don’t stop to try and interpret the floral patterns printed on it.
btw, when you get a chance, maybe you could show us all the times anybody here has linked to “moveon.org”.
nope, all the links to toilet paper keep coming from you.
ever thought about buying a bidet?
I mean since you seem to prefer reading toilet paper to actually using it for its intended purpose and all.
hint: you have no credibility whatsoever. top that off with the fact that you’re a braindead pile of hair clippings, and you need not wonder why nobody is bothering to really respond to the fact you have nothing of substance to input.
bye now.
we use toilet paper to wipe our asses with, joey. we don’t stop to try and interpret the floral patterns printed on it.
Maybe that’s why your shift key isn’t working! You jammed toilet paper in between the keys!
nope, all the links to toilet paper keep coming from you.
I’ve never linked to toilet paper, but rather to web sites. But then, if you use your monitor to wipe your rear end, it’s no wonder you have such difficulty reading (and thus comprehending) what others write.
ever thought about buying a bidet?
No. Why would I need one? Oh, right, more stream-of-consciousness self-parody rambling nothingness. Never mind.
hint: you have no credibility whatsoever.
This from someone who has never posted anything except ad hominem and schoolyard insults.
top that off with the fact that you’re a braindead pile of hair clippings
Case in point.
and you need not wonder why nobody is bothering to really respond to the fact you have nothing of substance to input
You responded. I guess that means you’re nobody. Not that this is surprising in any way. The only “substance” you have is the one you’ve been smoking. Your next intelligent comment will be your first.
bye now.
You mean you’re leaving the country already? Promise? Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
Joe, isn’t it peculiar that only you and a few other enlightened persons have access to the truth while all the rest of us were fooled into believing that there actually were no WMDs in Iraq by the incredible powerful MSM (and not only in the US!) and completely fabricated reports of the evil UN (some of them were even available before the invasion! Oh, this wickedness!) working together in an all-embracing conspiracy trying to subvert world-domination by the honorable Bush administration? Imagine, thousands of people all over the globe united in a devilish plan to make Bush et al. look like fools and not a single one comes forward to expose this concoction?
Yes, it is actually not necessary to refute anything in this article. Because, in order to believe what the article says, you actually have to believe in the existence of the above mentioned conspiracy which clearly sets you outside of rational discourse.
Joe puts more stock in the WingNutDaily spin doctors than in the primary sources he has urged us to explore: That would be Kay himself, and also the senior Defense Department official quoted in the Fox article concerning the report to which Joe has also referred us. In a word: Puzzling.
WND isn’t a terrible credible source, I’m afraid. IMO, one cannot bitch about MoveOn and then, in the next breath, credibly cite WND. But that’s just me.
Even if we give WND the benefit of the doubt, what is the piece offering? Kay’s January, 2004 testimony largely refutes the WND article, which – despite the fact that it appeared three months after that testimony – relies heavily on Kay’s earlier (and obviously premature) October, 2003 testimony. Clearly, the intent is to downplay the importance of Kay’s January testimony and to put a positive spin on the whole mess.
The article also relies heavily on the unsubstantiated words of nameless “officials”, and on the opinion of one man: Douglas Hanson.
What puzzles me is why, aside from a few right-wing bloggers and rags like WND, nobody seems to give a damn about what Hanson has to say – not even anyone in the Bush White House, which surely could stand to score a few points in the PR department. Perhaps it’s because not even Hanson claims that any of the WMD found were the product of any kind of program that existed after the end of the first Gulf War in 1991. Hanson does claim, however, that Saddam possessed the means to kick-start a WMD program in a relatively short period of time and that “precursors,” in the form of pesticides that were likely manufactured during the 90’s, were found hidden in underground bunkers.
One would think that a thing like that, if true, would make a compelling PR win for the Bush administration. I have no reason to disbelieve Hanson, by the way – he appears to be competent and credible, even if some of his key points are speculative – it’s the lack of enthusiasm on the part of Bush et al. that makes me wonder.
Anyway, here’s an article by Hanson, and an interview.
Though the articles are interesting, but I can’t help but take them with a grain of salt: A Google search for [“Douglas Hanson” iraq wmd] returns only 178 hits, many of them identical links or references to one of a handful of original sources; few of them are recognizable sites, none of them major news outlets or journals. In contrast, a search for [“David Kay” iraq wmd] returns 13,200 hits.
I realize these stats in and of themselves say nothing about Hanson’s reliability, but again, it does make me wonder why he’s being ignored by virtually everyone this side of WND.
(I can’t even find a reference to Douglas Hanson on FoxNews.com. Not a single hit! Methinks Hanson may be beyond the fringe – not unlike WingNutDaily and the other sites that use Hanson as a source.)
Kseniya, as I said, there is no need to refute anything in this article. But it is re-assuring that walking the extra mile and looking deeper into this matter yields the same conclusion.
Yeah, it’s reassuring, I guess.
It is telling that the official administration response to the report Joe himself insisted we read includes this unqualified statement:
“This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991… [the munitions] are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war.”
So…. where ARE the weapons for whichthis country went to war? It seems they exist only in the imaginations of the wingnuts who can’t accept reality.
What more can one say?
Please take note: These are not MoveOn.org “talking points.” These are the conclusions I reached by looking into the information that Joe insisted would support his claims.
I expect Joe will soon come up with a reliable source from http://www.zealouspatriotsurvivalists.com/ explaining how and why everything the DoD and the Bush administration has told us about the National Ground Intelligence Center report was a lie, that Saddam is still alive and more of a threat than ever.
Well, actually, given the accuracy of what the Bush administration has offered us on this subject over the past seven years, the intrepid bloggers over at zealouspatriotsurvivalists dot com just might be on to something.
Kseniya, I do hope Joe Blow and Keith Eaton meet up. How much fun it would be for them to compare and contrast their home worlds.
LOL! Well, I’m sure they’ll both feel increasingly at home here as the methane levels in our atmosphere continue to rise. ;-)
thank’s