Attempting to infect Spain
America should be ashamed: now our resident idiots are exporting creationism to Spain (Google translation). They’re staging a conference, Lo Que Darwin no Sabía (What Darwin Didn’t Know).
My apologies to the land of Santiago Ramón y Cajal, Miguel Servet, Joan Oró, and José Celestino Bruno Mutis. We aren’t all morons over here in the US, I assure you.
Just remember, it’s also the land of Don Quixote
Thx, just registered for the Barcelona presentation on January 17th, will let you know how it went.
Yo quero morons?
Can we hope it is just a ruse to get them over there to be able to use some of those neat old inquisitive devices on them?
I mean, they wouldn’t expect it.
Nobody does.
Hey, Don Quixote was a good guy, just a little crazy. Leave him out of this!
My Spanish is not good enough to travel there and actually understand any of the bs. Let’s pray *g* that they’ll open a branch in Germany soon, so we can have some fun over here as well.
I bet creationists are holding their breath for success
I just read on paleofreak about it: “University of Leon cancelled conferences”. University of Vigo cancelled it too. Next (and only remaining) is Barcelona.
We aren’t all morons over here in the US, I assure you.
True, but we have so many morons, it’s easy to see why others think all of us are.
Do not dare to offer an alternative to the synthetic theory of evolution and denies any link with religious movements. However, if you are asked for other associations or agencies that support this message in Spain, refers to the website of Evangelical Service Documentation and Information (Sedin), in whose home appears a direct link to the Coordinator Creacionista.
Uh huh. I know there’s a lot of things that “Darwin didn’t know”, but the “Evangelicals” are acting like everybody else doesn’t know what Darwin didn’t know. Or something!
Why don’t they go and hold a conference about “what Jesus didn’t know”? I dunno.
the US religious nuts trying to bring their cancer over to europe? Begin the chemotherapy already…
The cretinists try to infect the Socialist Kingdom of Spain? Will be fun, if boring, to watch how they get utterly ignored.
The cretinists try to infect the Socialist Kingdom of Spain? Will be fun, if boring, to watch how they get utterly ignored.
I’m sorry to say that it is not just Spain. For years we up here in Iceland we have had a 24/7 TV station that constantly churns out programs primeraly from the states.
I would not be surprised if they were also funded at least in part from the US. Now we have our own set of idiots on blogs spreading the muck from creationist sites. So the wonderful tool i.e. the internet is also providing tools for the collective force of stupidity around the world.
Don’t worry however, the scientific literacy here is high enough to withstand everything we have seen so far.
If the wonderful antibiotics keep coming to us from the contributors of Science-blogs and all the other sites I know we will be able to keep them in their caves.
Don’t forget Pablo…he was creative, but no creationist.
#12 “Will be fun, if boring, to watch how they get utterly ignored.”
oh, don’t be that optimist… Don’t forget that in Spain, we have the infamous COPE, the second most popular radio network, which is owned by the church (CEE : Episcopial Spanish Conference) and has been very virulent lately. Wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t pick this up.
What Darwin didn’t know is that the side effect of his conclusions would be the rise of an aggressively ignorant form of Biblical literalism.
Think of it this way: better to fight them over there, so we don’t have to fight them over here, right?
Maybe we can just revoke their passports while they’re out of the country.
a direct link to the Coordinator Creacionista
lol, Creationistas
Fading voice: The Spanish Creacionista
Inquisitor: WHO SAID THAT?!?!?
I can picture it in my mind now:
The creationists get to Spain, and just as they are warming up for their mass conversion, they are placed in irons, and subjected to the ‘best’ of the Spanish Inquisition.
The head creationist looks forlornly at the Grand Inquisitor, and complains that this is NOT what he was led to expect when he accepted the invitation.
The Grand Inquisitor leaps to his feet and bellows:
NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!
Sorry, but in reference to posts #4 & 10, it had to be said…
Cdesign Proponentsistas.
#15 […] Wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t pick this up.
Maybe I’m too much of an optimist, but I think creationism has no chance in Spain. And I’m not afraid of the COPE in that respect. You might be surprised at the different kind of people that listens to the COPE (and to which programs).
In any case the Inquisition would probably side with them, so little hope there.
And remember that the current Pope was the head of the current incarnation of the Inquisition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_the_Doctrine_of_the_Faith)
Addendum: on the position of the catholic church regarding evolution:
http://www.catholic.com/library/adam_eve_and_evolution.asp
I’m not certain, but I think the Church’s long association with the fascist regime soured a lot of Spaniards on trusting religious authorities. (Much like Cold War American foreign policy, anyone who opposes Communism is a friend of the Catholic Church, no matter how much of a monster they are.) The alleged ties between Opus Dei founder Josemaria Escriva and Generalissimo Franco have tainted that organization’s already controversial reputation from the start.
I am not very worried myself, either (although the fact that anybody gives them a chance is always worrying, of course). Spain is quite secular, much more so thatn the US, and while lots of people will call themselves Catholics over here, it is a very tepid form of Catholicism, which really just consists of going to church during weddings, baptism, confirmations and funerals, and doing whatever one feels like the rest fo the time.
Even though scientific literacy here is in my experience not really good enough to allow people to understand exactly what is wrong with IDiocy, the obvious connection between it and fundamentalist christianity will turn most off before the IDiots even start talking, so they are unlikely to have much success (as opposed to the US, I mean, where connections to Christianity make the kooks immediately trustworthy in the public’s eye).
By the way, I do live in Spain.
We aren’t all morons over here in the US, I assure you.
Which is exactly what I keep trying to tell people about Florida. But nobody listens, and instead we get slams from people like PZ just a few posts down (“most ignorant state”).
Funny how you seem to think it’s oh-so-important not to judge an entire population by the behavior of a few idiots within it when you yourself are a part of that population, eh PZ?
Then please to explain why you let loud idiots nominate themselves as your representative spokespersons?
@False Profet:
Quite true, at least in the past. I do live in Spain and I can assure you that, although most people consider themselves catholic christians, they’re mainly of the moderate/almost secular kind.
I consider this effect comes from the fact that the catholic church wielded enormous power during the dictatorship, and people was a bit pissed of.
That said, there are bad signs coming. Most of the spanish’ church hierarchy is very right-wing and ‘teocon’, and in recent years has launched an attack against the socialist government for doing such things as legalizing gay marriage, finding an alternative to religious education (read indocrination) in school and just thinking about reforming the abortion laws (as well as some other political issues which have nothing to do with ‘christian morality’).
They are in good standing with pope Razti and his crusade against modernity. In a recent demostration, one spokesman from the church (i think a bishop) stated that gay marriage was ‘the worst attack the church had to endure in its 2,000 years of history’ (?)
I think it is only a question of time they start to openly endorse ID/cretinism against the godless theory of darwinism.
And yet, the Social Democrats were elected and don’t seem to care much about what the church says…
And yet, the Social Democrats were elected and don’t seem to care much about what the church says…
@David Marjanović: That is what I used to think. But for the upcoming elections (March 08), the PSOE (the socialist party) has dropped the proposed reforms of the abortion laws and the revising of the church’s funding in order to appease the bishops (to no avail, of course).
What I fear is that a policy of ‘appeasement’ won’t do. Zapatero (Spain’s government president) is quite firm and stands by his past reforms, and he won’t allow any cretinist nonsense in the schools. I trust the socialists. I don’t trust a church which is growing more and more antieverything with each passing day.
David @30,
I think the PSOE do care — a lot, in fact — about what the RC church says. But “caring about” != “being concerned to obey”. After all, an oncologist cares a lot about metastasis; that doesn’t mean she likes it.
As a rule, Spaniards do take the RC church seriously. That doesn’t mean they are all in the Opus Dei. Far from it. Only a Spaniard, perhaps, could have founded that vile organisation. But only a Spaniard of a different sort could have given us the beautiful phrase, “la única iglesia que ilumina es la que arde.” In his own way, Durruti took the church as seriously as did Escrivá. He simply came, unlike Escrivá, to the correct conclusion about it.
“la única iglesia que ilumina es la que arde” = “the only church that illuminates is the one that is burning”
Sorry for the sloppy translation – my english is not that good.
There are many people still (mainly old and/or far right-wing types) that equate secularism and laicism with communism, anarchism and other (in their view) evils. They consider Spain to be a christian country (culturally speaking it is -religiously, not quite) and that the church has the right to interfere whenever it wants to. And while they are a minority, they are a large (and loud) minority).
That’s a good way to put it. It also fits the fact that clergy regularly appear (as harmless but majorly obnoxious figures) in the comics by the great Ibáñez the Greatest while I wouldn’t expect any in a comic from elsewhere.
(Aznar also regularly appeared [as yet another laughingstock], and the PP’s seagull or whatever the bird is became a vulture…)
That’s a good way to put it. It also fits the fact that clergy regularly appear (as harmless but majorly obnoxious figures) in the comics by the great Ibáñez the Greatest while I wouldn’t expect any in a comic from elsewhere.
(Aznar also regularly appeared [as yet another laughingstock], and the PP’s seagull or whatever the bird is became a vulture…)
David,
re: Ibáñez and his comics: it’s a different medium, of course, but do you know Father Ted?
BTW, in fairness, I should note that we have a family friend, a Spaniard, who is a member of Opus Dei. He is also a socialist who fled Spain after the Republic was overthrown by treasonous generals and lived in London exile till Franco died. (Not exactly your typical Opus Dei man, then. But he wasn’t religious when he left Spain — he became religious, and joined O.D., during his exile in England.) He is a beautiful, generous, wonderful old man, who simply happens to be a devout catholic. To balance fairness with accuracy, I should also note that, through him, I have met many Opus Dei members, and — to put it as kindly as I can — very few of them are attractive people. Not many of the Spanish members of his generation would have needed to bugger off to London after the civil war, if you know what I mean.
#33, well , just to name one example, France, our new President, Sarkozy, is not exactly a “communist” (he’s more of a right winger, economically speaking), but he has many times repeated that he holds to the principles of Laicity of the French constitution.
It is a very American idea, that progressive secularism = communism, or even socialism.
Now, the “right wing” in France, is probably closer to “the center” in the USA, but the point remains, one can be secular, and not communist.
Don’t forget that in Spain,there is, more than maybe anywhere else in Europe, a big generational gap on the issue of religion.
If you grew up in this country before 1978, (ie more than 50 year old), chances are your definition of Catholicism and it’s impact on morality, and more precisely sexual morality, will be quite different if you grew up later.
@negentropyeater: well, it seems it is not quite only an american idea.
See, during the spanish civil war (1936-1939), Franco’s right wing launched a ‘crusade’ (it was actually named so) against the secular, godless and communist republic (that’s how they viewed it). They won the war, and the catholic church enjoyed tremendous privileges, most of which it kept when the dictatorship ended and democracy was restablished.
These 30 years of democracy in Spain have seen a slow struggle to see those privileges abolished and the church’s influence diminished. The church is taking profit of the world’s upsurge in religiosity to try to set the clock back several decades. And it is doing so by that ‘ol trick feeling persecuted when they are not allowed to persecute anyone. Keep in mind that just 40 years ago Spain was a nationalcatholic (another official name) state.
There was an article (in spanish, sorry) in EL PAIS about the decrease in religious weddings, baptisms and funeral in favour of some secularist celebration:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/Espana/seculariza/elpepisoc/20080110elpepisoc_1/Tes
The French have their IDiot “scientists” as well. But he has some difficulty evangelizing.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i4/french.asp
“Dr Eggen: France has about 55 million people. Perhaps 20-30% would claim to believe in God in some way or another. Those who are really believing Christians would, I think, be less than 2%.”
…
“Although I know the opposition can be strong in such countries, I actually find that French scientists are even more intolerant, on the whole, of someone that doesn’t believe in evolution. In America, for example, I was more often able to share my mind on creation and they respected me. Maybe because they knew me from the scientific work I’ve done. But in France, the intolerance against creation is very, very strong.”
…
“In France, evolution is taught as a fact that you have to learn, and if you try to oppose that, you will be in trouble.”
…
“What would you like to say to readers in closing?
First, please pray for France, for the ministry that is just beginning here. And especially for the battles we will have to fight here in France, because like your experience elsewhere in the world, this is a spiritual fight, and it won’t be easy. Creation really is the work of God.”
The rest of the interview is even worse.
Luis Daniel said ‘ just read on paleofreak about it: “University of Leon cancelled conferences”. University of Vigo cancelled it too. Next (and only remaining) is Barcelona.’
That is good news, of course, but even if Barcelona has not cancelled that isn’t necessarily good news for the creationists. We heard about these lectures from a friend in Barcelona before I read about them here: he is very articulate and very anti-creationist. I think he will probably go (and encourage his colleagues) to go to one or both meetings, and I suspect that if he does the creationists may wish the Barcelona meetings had also been cancelled.
I’m also puzzled about another thing. There is little to suggest that the first three experts (Tom Woodward, Geoffrey Simmons and Isaac Lorencez) know any Spanish, so my guess is that they’ll speak in English, which means that they’ll mainly be understood by the people mostly likely to realize what nonsense they are speaking. The fourth speaker (Antonio Martínez) probably does speak Spanish, but all we are told about his qualifications is that biographical information will appear shortly.
Dr Lorencez is claimed to be an “expert in biochemistry”, which surprised me as I’d never heard of him. Checking “Lorencez” in PubMed returns the response “The following term was not found: Lorencez See Details. No items found. Did you mean: lorence (117 items)”.
Although the main interest of the more extremist sections of the Spanish Catholic Church (read Opus Dei) fall generally away from scientific issues and more about positions of power and economic influence, they could easily see ID as a way of getting through another window into the education debate. They already hold a strong position, as Catholic teaching is an option in primary and secondary schools, payed by everybody with teachers selected by the bishops. But recent changes have made them unhappy, so although it might not be top in their list of priorities (changing laws on divorce and homosexual rights goes first), I wouldn’t bet they are not going to try an use this weapon in their attacks to a less-religious-than-usual government.
Just to clarify: the talks at both León and Vigo universities have been cancelled, but still one is to take place at León’s Medical Council, where the only member of PPSI in Spain lives: the ophthalmologist Antonio Martinez. Another one will take place in Vigo, but at a cultural center run by the local building society. In Madrid, barcelona and Malaga they seem to have been forced to hire conference rooms at various hotels. Also, the only web presence of Dr. Lorencez is in the website of the German evangelist church, not much to do with his scientific credentials.
Speaking of trying to inflict American brands of nonsense on Europeans, Nisbet’s talking at the Swedish embassy and apparently Dawkins is the bogeyman again.
No. Only Don Camillo & Peppone.
That’s scary. That’s really scary.
No. Only Don Camillo & Peppone.
That’s scary. That’s really scary.
David,
the Don Camillo films are very nearly as shite as the novels that spawned them. But Father Ted is sheer brilliance altogether.
@windy:
the title of Nisbet’s thread:
Talk @ Swedish Embassy: The Paradigm Shift in Sci Comm
anybody who uses the term: Paradigm Shift, is insane.
Nisbet has totally lost it.
I ask again, is there someone directly countering his nonsense?
David,
I believe he meant Spanish members of Opus Dei
Nisbet has totally lost it.
I ask again, is there someone directly countering his nonsense?
Since Nisbet is pushing his message on multiple fronts, where do you think it would do most good to counter him?
(Did you notice that he called Dawkins a “maverick communicator”? I can only conclude that someone died and made Nisbet the communications pope.)