Wilkins is wondering when the real criminals will be punished—he’s talking about the abuses of power by the current Republican administration, ranging from the evisceration of civil liberties in our own country to criminal and unjustified foreign wars, with the concomitant loss of hundreds of thousands of lives. I think I can answer that one.
Never.
Bush will leave office with the praise of his sycophants ringing in his ears, and that will include the national media. He will go off to a happy retirement, smirking all the way, and will only ever appear at voluntary events hosted by other criminals who will be anxious to continue applauding him. Personally, I think that at every public event at which he shows his face from now on, people ought to spit on him…and he and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and the whole rotten gang ought to be shipped off to an international war crimes trial today. It won’t happen.
One reason is the remarkably timid complacency of the citizenry. We have a president who signs away our liberties, and the people just yawn. This is a nation of sheep, bred to follow authority, no matter how odious or insane. It’s frightening how much reverence for authority people will grant to piddling wankers like Bush, or televangelists, or media figures—these people can do anything, and the public will rush to hush anyone who criticizes.
Another reason is historical. Read this account of what the United States has done in the past—along with the sheep, we are a nation of monsters. John Milton Chivington would have been an exemplary soldier in the War on Terror. But, you see, we don’t learn from history: our kids do not learn about the Sand Creek Massacre in school, and they will not learn about Abu Ghraib and habeas corpus in the future.
Our kids don’t even learn about Nixon, except that he was a president; if they are particularly diligent, they might discover some of the press hagiography about him. That’s it.
There’s a fantasy of America the rich and wise and powerful and gracious and self-sacrificing that has a powerful resonance in this country. Unfortunately, we’ve learned that we can close our eyes and wallow in the myth, and we don’t actually have to try and live up to it…and we haven’t. Ever.
Don’t forget how Ford was posthumously exonerated of wrongdoing as well — and he pardoned the man.
Agree in general with the tone of this piece, but would point out that even his contemporaries thought what Chivington did was an evil, horrendous act. So much so that he was pilloried for it. He could not be punished (due to a civil war amnesty) but he was widely reviled for it and had to live the rest of his life under its shadow. Your own link to the wiki article illustrates this.
Kind of mitigates the (otherwise deserved) bile against Americans your post exudes.
I have enjoyed your postings for a couple months now. However, I will have to unsubscribe now. You have turned out to be another weak minded scientist that still holds on to the religious dogma just with a different name.
Nope, he gets no pass from me PZ. Put me down for some compare and contrast fun between the 2 most recent former leaders to die.
Well, the video coverage quality was worse for Sadam, but time of coverage was worse for Ford. Sadam did not get pardoned, while Ford pardoned Republican criminal Dick Nixon. BOTH Ford and Sadam were against the US going to Iraq, while Ford came out against the war after he was dead, and Sadam before he was dead.
In the US, a lot of people got the day off because Ford died, and in Iraq, a lot of people got the rest of their lives off becasue of the death of Sadam.
Ford’s favorite color was red, and Sadam’s was blood red, and they both liked kids and dogs. Ford played football, while Sadam swung a mean sword, and looked far better on a camel.
Hope This Helps people tell them apart.
The real criminals rarely get punished in this country, and W will not be one of the exceptions. I remember getting lambasted a few months ago in this very space for saying the war had cost 100,000 Iraqi lives, which, in spite of much higher estimates since then, is still about 100,000 too many deaths. My guess was on the low end, as it turned out.
Umm, Saddam just got hanged for 148 deaths. There will be no more trials.
Saddam, the criminal, 148 deaths.
W, the hero, 100,000 deaths.
I just don’t get it. What causes this disconnect?
The good news, as I see it, is that W is now down to cutting into his base. He’s lost the crossover vote, and the moderate Republican vote, and even some voters who would never vote for a Democrat. I think he’s now down to the last part of the Republican party who chant to themselves every morning, “At least he’s not John Kerry!”. That’s all they can think to say; “at least we’re not Red.”
But the problem with my analysis is that if we nominate Obama or Clinton, that base would return in a hurry. An African American or woman president (both of whom I’d vote for without hesitation; I just want to be clear on that)? These two candidates lose over half the potential crossover voters. Which is a complete shame because of one little thing: Bush is PERSONALLY responsible for an unwarranted little excursion that has killed at least 100,000 people, and has converted practically an entire generation of young people there to the cause of sinking America.
Not to say there isn’t some hypocrisy on the other side of this. Venezuela is perfectly willing to rip us every day, but if we stopped sending them money for oil, their criticism would stop in a heartbeat. Pssst, guys, they’re doing this for MONEY. So let’s stop sending it to ’em.
I’m old enough now (48) to know when American politicians won’t ever be held accountable. Reagan, Nixon, even LBJ all got over. So will Bush.
Umm, Saddam just got hanged for 148 deaths. There will be no more trials.
Saddam, the criminal, 148 deaths.
W, the hero, 100,000 deaths.
I just don’t get it. What causes this disconnect?
Saddam was responsible for a lot more than 148 deaths; that fact isn’t in dispute. But Bush had to kill Saddam quickly, before he started talking about the real massacres. Saddam could have pointed fingers at Poppy Bush, Rumsfeld, and their ilk for their complicity in some seriously evil shit if he’d been tried openly in the Hague for his real crimes.
Umm, Chivington butchered and mutilated unarmed men, women, and children, and bragged about it — and he had lots of people praise him for it. The Wikipedia article mentions that his past prevented him from running for public office.
This is the price he paid? Oooh. I can’t run for public office because I’m an atheist. I haven’t shot a single baby with a rifle in my entire life..
Oops. The first four lines there are from MikeM’s comment above mine, and should have been italicized.
The preview button is my friend! I shouldn’t neglect it so.
This country has stopped trying to be the best it can. Not that we ever were the best,
but at least at points we were really trying.
All we seem to be really good at now is being consumers. Which is fine if it’s balanced with some form of culture and pursuit of knowledge.
We’re not first in science, health care, education, the arts, technology… making peace?
But whoa is the Man who stands up in public and states it, turning a mirror back on our society and asking it…
“Are we really the best? Is this as good as it’s going to get?”
I really hope that there is better to come for us as a nation, that the best is not behind us… especially for my son.
But you take one look at the complete failure of a President we have… elected twice no less (sort of)… and the odds don’t look good. The only positive sign is that he poll numbers are so damn low that there’s a little hope left for us.
Not to say there isn’t some hypocrisy on the other side of this. Venezuela is perfectly willing to rip us every day, but if we stopped sending them money for oil, their criticism would stop in a heartbeat. Pssst, guys, they’re doing this for MONEY. So let’s stop sending it to ’em.
I wouldnt be too sure about this.
Bravely put PZ. You don’t mince words and you are not afraid of losing friends. What you say seems sadly accurate.
Yes, what the United States did to Native Americans was a great crime, as were slavery and segregation. But is America more monstrous than other nations? And has America done good things that equal or exceed the good works of many other nations?
To name just some of them:
– defeat, in alliance with the Entente, of the Central Powers during WWI
– defeat of fascist Italy and Nazi Germany (yes, the Soviets were instrumental in the latter after their Pact partner betrayed them)
– defeat of Japanese Empire and imposing political reform on Japan
– the Marshall Plan
– saving South Korea from Communism
– defeat of Soviet Communism and liberation of Eastern Bloc nations though military, economic, and diplomatic pressure in alliance with other Western democracies and Soviet Bloc dissidents
– defeat of Slobodan Milosevic
– forcing Liberia’s Charles Taylor from power
– central actor in global trade, raising living standards (see Paul Krugman, Jagdish Baghwati)
– for centuries, providing a model of democratic revolution and reform
– humanitarian aid, including medicine, to developing nations
– scientific advances, including vaccinations, that has improved living standards and saved countless lives
– fighting a civil war to end chattel slavery while it continued in much of the rest of the world, in some places well into the 20th C
– hard-won struggles for women’s rights, civil rights, and labor rights which have become a model for similar advances in other parts of the world
– groundbreaking reform in environmental preservation and consumer protection (Teddy Roosevelt)
It’s that our self-righteousness prevents us from looking inwards, unless there are some godless Commies to unearth. Serious attempts to root out corruption that is flown under the banner of patriotic nationalism is simply described as “blaming America first”. I’m certain you have heard of it.
“I have enjoyed your postings for a couple months now. However, I will have to unsubscribe now. You have turned out to be another weak minded scientist that still holds on to the religious dogma just with a different name.”
It’s not going to hurt as much as you think. America doesn’t criminalize our Presidents, no matter what the crime. I think it’s odd that they are above the law considering that we have a constitutional proscription against nobility and Bush and Nixon are able to live free and get rich after their presidency.
There is a chance that, now that there’s a democratic congress, the whistle blowers will come out of the woodworks with some evidence of real wrong doing (other than the blatant lying) and the public will demand a true investigation.
But right now the american public is more concerned with Britney Spears’ going commando in mini skirts.
Colugo, thank you for illustrating PZ’s point.
I think you’re just bummed because the War on Christmas has failed.
Umm, Chivington butchered and mutilated unarmed men, women, and children, and bragged about it — and he had lots of people praise him for it. The Wikipedia article mentions that his past prevented him from running for public office.
It also mentions other things, Dr. Myers. Including the fact that he was “was widely reviled for it” (I’ve heard those very words somewhere….). Even the army judge at his court martial called Chivington’s act; “a cowardly and cold-blooded slaughter, sufficient to cover its perpetrators with indelible infamy, and the face of every American with shame and indignation.” His own subordinates publically accused him and testified against him -this fact alone would be significant to anyone with a passing familiarity with the military. The article goes on to say that public outrage was enough to force congress to abandon plans for a wider Indian war.
That article said a bit more than you imply.
This is the price he paid? Oooh. I can’t run for public office because I’m an atheist. I haven’t shot a single baby with a rifle in my entire life..
I get it, Myers.
Justice was not served in Chivington’s case, nor will it be for the shrub and his henchmen. And it’s all our fault. Americans are, unlike the rest of humanity, undeserving of the moral high ground we claim for our own.
What a sad and childish perspective.
Not in the mood for another “whoREALLYwonWWII&defeatedKOMUNIZM” debate, but a few comments to Colugo anyway…
-defeat of Slobodan Milosevic
Milosevic was “defeated” like the war in Iraq is “won”. By the time Serbs finally tossed him to the dogs he’d already done the worst. Nobody prevented him from doing as he pleased for more than a decade. Nobody prevented the war in Croatia and Bosnia, costing a couple hundred thousand lives and millions of refugees, and if there isn’t wholesale butchery every day in Kosovo today (there’s still plenty), it’s because of 17,000 mostly non-US UN peacekeepers. You can strike that soundbite off your (really, pathetic) “America’s good deeds” litany.
– for centuries, providing a model of democratic revolution and reform
A little simplistic, this–while at the same time importing human livestock? Oh, I get it–a sort of New Greece, it must have been.
-fighting a civil war to end chattel slavery
I’ve read accounts with entirely different list of priorities.
-hard-won struggles for women’s rights, civil rights, and labor rights which have become a model for similar advances in other parts of the world
Have you smelled those laurels recently? Rather moldy, no? It’s cute SOME Americans remember Haymarket (I have yet to meet ONE who gets my May Day celebration without a history lecture), but the US hasn’t been in the avant garde of social rights and freedoms for many decades now (if I were in a taunting mood, I’d say since 1917… Of course, I’m hardly EVER in such a mood.:))
Btw, speaking of civil rights, Langston Hughes and James Baldwin, to name but a few, might disagree with the idea the US “did it better”–way back when or even now.
Americans are, unlike the rest of humanity, undeserving of the moral high ground we claim for our own.
I think that you’re being a little bit melodramatic here, shiftlessbum. Just because PZ thinks (correctly, in my opinion) that Americans have an inflated sense of their own moral superiority doesn’t imply that he thinks people in other countries are better.
People like you are the source of so many of America’s ills; you’re the reason that a serious conversation about America’s shortcomings is basically impossible. Your ability to take what appears to be personal offense at a serious criticism of the country in which you live, while impressive, does your country no favors.
I mostly agree.
But do we have to impeach every president from here on?
Just the ones who commit war crimes and subvert the public.
People like you are the source of so many of America’s ills; you’re the reason that a serious conversation about America’s shortcomings is basically impossible. Your ability to take what appears to be personal offense at a serious criticism of the country in which you live, while impressive, does your country no favors.
So now I’m the source of America’s ills because I disagree with Myers perspective? What are you on crack?
I take no personal offense at anything he says, you are misreading (wilfully, I’ll wager) what I wrote.
Injustice is everywhere. The guilty run free and the richer or more powerful you are the easier it is to escape justice. Stop the friggin presses.
I think (in fact I said it) that I agree with the tone of his theme; shrub and his henchmen will not face justice because of the way we are. But that “we” is broad. Very broad. It encompasses all of humanity. The example he chose to illustrate his point mitigates, to a certain degree, his argument.
You probably haven’t the wit to see it.
Read The Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy
I believe that we Americans do not have to choose between a vainglorious national hagiography and a self-hating litany of sins. Instead, we can recognize – and teach our children – both the good and bad things that this country has done, properly understood in historical and geopolitical context.
President Bill Clinton, Second Inaugural Address, 1997: “America stands alone as the world’s indispensable nation.”
Even Karl Marx recognized the progressive historical role of the United States. Karl Marx, New York Tribune, 1861: “(T)he true people of England, of France, of Germany, of Europe, consider the cause of the United States as their own cause, as the cause of liberty, and that, despite all paid sophistry, they consider the soil of the United States as the free soil of the landless millions of Europe, as their land of promise…”
Shiftlessbum:
And if you had bothered to follow PZ’s link to my post, you’d have found information indicating that, once again, the Wikipedia entry is not entirely accurate (big surprise there).
Chivington was only “widely reviled” in the Northeast and in Washington, where a group of senators and congressmen set out to condemn him. But their criticism was muted after a trip to Denver where the citizenry made its feelings unmistakably clear.
As for being “widely reviled,” in fact, Chivington was widely celebrated and the toast of at least a certain segment of the nation. He embarked on a speaking tour where he was a dinner speaker talking about Sand Creek, and he enjoyed something of a career as this kind of speaker afterward.
America has too many of the kind of parent who visits the school and yells at the teacher when his kid misbehaves or gets a lousy report card.
This country is in the care of its citizenry. It is our child — and its government is our employee, not our master. To criticize it when necessary is more than our right, it is our duty. To insist otherwise is, in the words of Theodore Roosevelt, “not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Professor Myers may not be entirely accurate when he writes “…we don’t actually have to try and live up to it…and we haven’t. Ever.” But the point if valid. We wallow in the “American can do no wrong” myth. It’s amazing how many bright and educated people walllow in this myth.
Colugo, rightly if imperfectly, tries to counter PZ’s blankett assertion with some counter examples.
I think this is what we call dialogue. I like it. Please continue. Where’s the coffee?
It was probably a mistake to link to the Wikipedia article. This subject, the flaws in America, is one where we can see right here in this thread that some immediately shut down and refuse to listen…and that’s the kind of subject that doesn’t fare well at Wikipedia.
And if you had bothered to follow PZ’s link to my post, you’d have found information indicating that, once again, the Wikipedia entry is not entirely accurate (big surprise there).
I do agree that wiki is a suspect source. but it was PZ not me who linked to it. His comments -and my subesquent ones- were largely about what was in that article. So it turns out that “widely reviled” is in the eye of the beholder. I wasn’t…scratch that…I never suggested that his acts weren’t accepted by people of the times, even by a significant majority. Myers made it seem like the only thing that that “inaccurate” wiki article says was that Chivington’s only discomfort from his fellow countrymen over his acts was he had to withdraw from a race for public office. The article said, if inaccurately, much more than this and (here’s comes the point….maybe this time you won’t miss it) at least some (many?) of his contmporaries thought what he did was “a cowardly and cold-blooded slaughter, sufficient to cover its perpetrators with indelible infamy, and the face of every American with shame and indignation.”
This tends to mitigate somewhat, Dr. Myers bile, irrespective of how justfied it is. IMO, mind you. I am, after all, entitled to one.
In fact I did follow the link to your excellent post; I have it book marked for reference for the various and sundry jingos I run across. Handy-dandy. See, I actually agree with you and Myers (is there an echo in here?).
Here’s the thing, David, PZ and The Disgruntled One; if you’d stopped to read what I actually wrote you wouldn’t have jumped all over me. Or maybe you would. This topic brings it out. Just trying to set it straight.
So now I’m the source of America’s ills because I disagree with Myers perspective? What are you on crack?
I suspect you don’t have the audience to be the source of America’s ills all by yourself; who’s doing that willful misunderstanding now?
Injustice is everywhere. The guilty run free and the richer or more powerful you are the easier it is to escape justice. Stop the friggin presses.
So the fact that something is common means that we can’t complain about it, worry about it, or want it to change? How’s it going to get better if people like PZ don’t write about the need for the country to change? Maybe there’s a way for it to happen that I just haven’t the wit to see; for now, I’m just going to assume that America isn’t above criticism and that I was right to dislike your passive-aggressive response to PZ at 5:35.
ok, the US sucks, blows, shits, etc. bitching about it is alternatively preaching to the the choir or the empty wilderness.
what do we _do_? the topic is too big…the classic bad proposal that will never get funded.
I will begin to save amerika by defragging my HD.
s.
I think you will understand that this fantasy doesn’t exactly have any support in the so-called “third world” outside of the right wingers who dream of becoming a 51st state (only for them; the rabble would stay out). Having your relatives and friends persecuted, sometimes tortured and killed, by US-backed dictators does that to you.
Not to derail the current arm-wrestling, but I never had a high school history class get much past the Great Depression and WWII. Or if we did, it was in a hurried summary in the last week. Good? Bad? *shrugs* But any president past the ’50’s was just a name on a list.
– defeat of fascist Italy and Nazi Germany (yes, the Soviets were instrumental in the latter after their Pact partner betrayed them)
Um, the Eastern Front was retreating rapidly at the time of the D-Day. US assistance was no doubt vital, but it was primarily the Soviet Union who defeated the Nazi Germany. It only cost 23 million dead, or four times the number of Jews killed in the genocide.
Just taking some highlights from coluga’s post:
– defeat of Slobodan Milosevic
That particular thug was defeated in an election and the subsequent refusal of Serbs to accept attempts to falsify the result (feel free to compare and contrast). About all the NATO bombing campaign brought about – apart from destroyed infrastructure and two thousand dead civilians – was Serbia’s signature on a treaty little different than the one they’d signed prior to the bombing campaign, under the auspices of which the KLA has largely achieved its longstanding goal of ethnically cleansing Kosovo of its Serbs and Rom.
– defeat of Japanese Empire and imposing political reform on Japan
Ah, yes, Allied forces defeated an empire in South East Asia. Funnily enough, so did the Japanese. Three, to be exact (the British, French and American) and also gave the Dutch and Portuguese empires a right kicking. Following the defeat of the Japanese, the US sought to restore these empires (tho’ the British were pretty much finished), being particularly helpful in giving the French back their possessions in Indo-China. You may recall the glorious results of that project.
As for Japanese political reform, while a committee of young New Dealers did work to write Japan a constitution that was more progressive than most Western constitutions of the time (e.g. it contained an ERA), the eventual result was trashcanned by MacArthur in preference for a document more fitting post-war realpolitik, including an electoral system based on area rather than population which resulted in that section of the Japanese polity most responsible for the war remaining in power ever since.
– saving South Korea from Communism
Presumably that sounded better than “installing brutal military dictatorship”.
Colugo half-correctly credits America for “fighting a civil war to end chattel slavery while it continued in much of the rest of the world, in some places well into the 20th C.”
I say “half,” because the red states were on the other side, fighting to continue that “peculiar institution.” That is part of our history, also, and the political reverberations of the Lost Cause have not yet ended. Even as we write, the University of Texas is considering what to do about the statues on its campus to Robert E. Lee and other confederate “heroes.”
In abolition, the US shouldn’t be compared to African and Arab nations that continued slavery much longer, but to other western nations. Britain abolished slavery throughout her empire by 1833. France abolished it the last time in 1848. The Netherlands abolished it in 1863. What distinguishes the US isn’t when it abolished slavery, but that it required a Civil War to do so. Of course, the southern economy was tied to slavery.
Maybe we ought to impeach our presidents before they take office and just save time.
America is not a nice country to most other people, and even not a nice country to many Americans. It never has been. We’re a bunch of greedy, power-hungry competitive bastards.
There’s just not much point in pretending otherwise. The American people who hide from that truth and think this is a great nation that is always honorable are just idiots.
The American people who hide from that truth and think this is a great nation that is always honorable are just idiots.
Right you are! So are the people who think we’re a bunch of greedy, power-hungry competitive bastards.
You have hit the nail on the head again, PZ. Thank you.
We have become a nation of sheeple. We are at a very bad place.
No one has mentioned the one thing of which I think our nation can be most proud: the first amendment. If I were to name a second, it would be the separation of church and state, which includes not just the first amendment, but the thoroughly secular nature of our Constitution, even to the extent of allowing affirmations in the place of oaths, and its prohibition of religious test.
This PBS link has eye witness testimony from hearings on Sand Creek. It is pretty interesting the contrast between between what John Smith and Chivington say.
http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/four/sandcrk.htm
We have a president who signs away our liberties, and the people just yawn.
Hello? I didn’t yawn and neither did you and neither did anyone who regularly posts here. We were ineffectual because these SOBs jimmied the checks-and-balances we need to stop ’em from screwing with the Constitution.
The one practical option open to us–winning elections by a wide-enough margin to cover the GOP’s cheating–we did. And not just those netroots guys–this was the biggest mid-term election turnout since Jesus got pubes.
Americans weren’t yawning then, thery’re not yawning now. They’re plenty angry. And after Jenna and Barbara Jr’s dad makes his speech telling other parents that they haven’t sacrificed enough for his war, people will start thinking about impractical options. He could end up spending the rest of his life wearing the kind of body armor he was too cheap to get for the troops.
Russell,
I am very proud of our constitution and the people who had the vision to write it. That these portions are under attack from often the same people who want to whitewash every evil thing in U.S. history does not make me proud. You might say it is a good thing our current “patriots” were not around to write the constitution or it might read like one of Commander Codpiece’s signing statements.
No, you were ineffectual because you cling to the delusions that 1) a system can be reformed from the inside, and 2) most Americans agree with your conclusions and the methods you used to reach them.
One might argue that letting Nixon off the hook without even a plea let the whole thing get swept under the rug where the worst of the cockroaches (Cheney, Rumsfeld, and others) got fat and stayed angry about how the boss was wronged. They plotted how to do it better next time and damned if they didn’t do a better job of attempted dictatorship.
Dontcha sometimes wish there was a Hell, or at least a Purgatory?
Yeah natural cynic, I guess I do, but what really surprises me is how often the people who say they are going to hell woundn’t in a just religious-based fantasy land that actually followed, say, the teachings of this Christ fellow, whereas the ones who are sure they would never go are the ones that surely would.
One might argue that letting Nixon off the hook without even a plea let the whole thing get swept under the rug …
Your comment, while true, is too complicated; this is easier: If people thought they could get away with robbing banks because they’d just get pardoned and no one would complain much, would there be a lot more bank robberies?
Ford told people they could rob banks and get away with it if they wished to… and then some people did. No surprise.
Duhh.
No, you were ineffectual because you cling to the delusions that 1) a system can be reformed from the inside . . .
And your brilliant alternative would be what, exactly?
and 2) most Americans agree with your conclusions and the methods you used to reach them.
My conclusion is that most Americans don’t like Bush (as confirmed by every poll on the subject in the last year), and that the method of system change they like best is: voting.
Precisely what conclusions and methods did you think had more popular support? I notice that you hadn’t bothered to elucidate your own ideas. Is it because you have none?
I believe our police force should, in every action, present the doings of a model citizen. Of course, that desire serves no purpose in the eyes of getting the policing job done, and would only mean more work in actually holding people to a higher standard.
Every time a citizen sees a police officer failing to be upright, decent, outstanding, it is an excuse to think less of the police in general. When we see police beatings and killings go practically unpunished, we start to hate the police.
And if the United States is the World Police, I think the same rule should apply.
We’re either upright, outstanding and fair, across the board, and completely independent of what other countries have done or not done- or we’re scoundrels.
As usual, the current regime in the USA is writing their own rule book and going completely unhindered in their actions, justifying them all with lie, cover-up, and distraction.
We, the peon-plebian-nobodies, are left to shake our heads and then get back to whatever task it is that slows or decent into debt, as no amount of disagreement or anger will change the fact that when we wake up tomorrow, we’ll still be broke, and they will still be breaking the rules.
Show me 19 United States Citizens who would be willing to die flying a plane into a building in order to show how strongly they believe in the actions of the good ol’ USA. Certainly there are thousands who would die to show how they believe in the myth of the USA, but how many would go to certain death to show how they believed in, say, everything Bush has done since he took office?
“Your comment, while true, is too complicated; this is easier: If people thought they could get away with robbing banks because they’d just get pardoned and no one would complain much, would there be a lot more bank robberies?”
Sure, but I wanted to call Cheney and Rumsfeld cockroaches so I just had to go with the rug thing…
My real point was that justice really does have to be served or the law means nothing. You can’t say: “Oh well, he didn’t QUITE get to be king so, no harm, no foul.” Justice must be served or, well… there is no justice.
It really is pretty simple. Which was why those smart dead guys went with “rule of law”.
Last year I learned that Nixon was a liar, a fraud, a criminal, a wannabe dictator, and a man who rightly deserved to get kicked out of office after he not only tried to shut down the opposition party, eliminate the press, and interfered in a federal investigation. Of course, that was AP US History. I kinda had a leg up.
It was said much higher up there that history classes didn’t get past WW2. It’s sad to say that I concur; I have a natural gift for history (although I think it’s so boring) and my dad watches the History Channel alot, so while I can pick up stuff, 1950-2005 was pretty well rushed. In fact, we only got up to the Gulf War before the final exam. There just isn’t enough time to study everything, though if we skipped the very early US history that we’ve done 150 million times before we might actually fit it all in.
As for “wallowing in the myth,” I couldn’t have said it any better myself. It’s a perfect example of Idiot America, and there are so many people out there who just ignore what is going on it sickens me. They care more about their personal lives and “Oh my gosh Josh said that?” than the state of the country. Perhaps it’s because so many have been indoctrinated by the moronic religious bullshit that demands they don’t ask any questions? I start talking about politics or philosophy and people are like, “Dude, you’re too smart” and then launch into a conversation about a battle they had on World of Warcrap.
The day Americans wake up is the day we all become Canadians.
OK, so we’re horrible shitty creatures not deserving of life. what do we do now? nuke ourselves and get it over with or what?
I don’t know about you, PZ, but I’ve spent a lot of time ashamed because I didn’t have the nerve to kill myself and rid the world of the monstrosity that is me. Thinking about how horrible I am didn’t lead me to any solutions. I’m not saying you shouldn’t say this – far from it.
But I do want to know: So, what do we do now?
Face up to the shortcomings of the country and fight to correct them.
Was that so hard to understand?
Sit back and wait for the Tao to obliterate us, obviously.
Criticizing something that one wants to see improved is a very different project than condemning something that is undeserving of preservation.
If America is worthy of preservation, it must be much more than a nation of monsters and sheep. And perhaps there is some truth underlying the ‘fantasy’ of what America is supposed to be about.
well obviously, but I meant how do we deal with the emotional aspects of knowing that we suck? or maybe this isn’t as crippling for others as it is for me.
i suppose it isn’t fair of me to put a ‘therapy’ type question to you in this context, but i was hoping someone here might have an insight i’m missing into how to handle this sort of thing.
PZ wrote:
“Face up to the shortcomings of the country and fight to correct them.
Was that so hard to understand?”
Put that way, no it isn’t. But that sentiment certainly doesn’t come through in your post.
Your post would be great as a specific retort to some right wing hagiography of the U.S. Just blurted out as an abstract rant (to an audience that is broadly in complete agreement with the underlying point you’re making), it’s not terribly productive.
Well, we around here already knew we’ve always sucked. Not a big surprise, really. Although maybe you should go tell the Freepers about how our crypto-aristocracy has built and maintained an empire of greed since its inception, and then try to get out of Dodge without being lynched…
Seriously, maybe not. They’ll hunt you down. They’re nuts.
The greatest trick the aristocracy ever pulled was convincing the American peasants they didn’t exist.
“how do we deal with the emotional aspects of knowing that we suck?”
The real danger comes from pre-deciding what we think reality ought to be (or, in the case of creationism, pre-deciding what reality actually IS). When we do that, anything conflicting with our ideal reality must be either a mistake or a lamentable tragedy.
So what’s to be done? I’ve always liked sort of a Taoist approach:
1) Accept that reality is whatever reality is.
2) Find out what reality is.
3) Deal with it in the best possible way.
Simple, no?
Of course, step 3 inevitably involves imagining some ideal reality toward which one should strive, and it can be pretty disappointing/discouraging to realize that reality is often far from that ideal. So how does one deal with that?
As I see it, there are two somewhat overlapping choices:
1) We notice our flaws and are absolutely devastated because those flaws conflict with what we want reality to be.
2) We notice our flaws and are heartened that we now have the opportunity to fix them and move a little closer to what we want reality to be.
Basically, it’s always a bummer to realize you’re an asshole, or that you’re somehow responsible for something terrible, but once you know, at least you’ve improved your chances of making things right.
That’s the most optimistic outlook I can come up with, anyway.
The WAAGNFNP does not worry about such mundane concerns – there are bigger fish to fry.
All praise the GNF.
Are most of you complete , utter , drooling , mindless idiots ? Quit whining about the evils of the US and try exercising you First Amendment rights in Iran or Kenya or Venezuela. What? No takers ?
The US has its problems but I have never been arrested and tortured here for expressing my point of view!
If you hate it so much , swim to Cuba.
Oh , sorry , it’s the other way around , isn’t it?
Blame America First – they are the real problem in the world.
Cretins.
ThirdWorlder:
Here’s what you should do. Go to law school. Get a bar license. And try that reasoning in court.
“Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, are most of you complete, utter, drooling, mindless idiots? The plaintiffs should quit whining about my client raping and murdering one of their daughters. After all, he COULD have raped and murdered all three! Clearly he’s done nothing wrong and charging him is absurd!”
The logic is identical, and in both cases reduces to “The fact that things could be worse excuses them not being better.” Phrased like this, the absurdity is, or should be, obvious.
Beyond that (and ignoring the fact that were your positions not Pure Republican Zombie you would face significantly higher odds of being imprisoned and tortured for expressing them…or are we *still* supposed to believe that the people held in Guantanamo all had clear connections to terrorism? *snicker*), we DO in fact criticize the countries you cited. Apparently we do not do so often enough or loudly enough for your ganglia ring to absorb it and recognize it, and there are two reasons we focus on the US: first, we live there. Second, we (America) are *supposed* to be good, not just better than the bottom of the barrel…where you would apparently have us be content with wallowing.
The lecture is finished; you may go back to enjoying that delicious cherry-almond Kool-Aid now…
Thirdworlder said
> The US has its problems but I have never been arrested
> and tortured here for expressing my point of view!
That would depend on many things wouldn’t it:
+ your point of view
+ your religion
+ your nationality
+ your race
But it is OK for the US to torture others for expressing their point of view?
Sorry, the US doesn’t torture does it – it ‘renders’ and gets others to do it for them.
Or it amends the definition of torture until it is legal to half-drown somebody until they make up the answers they want to to hear
Hrumph!
“But is America more monstrous than other nations? And has America done good things that equal or exceed the good works of many other nations?”
Saying one is not as bad as someone else is hardly a good argument. For historical reminders;
-The colonization of the Philippines in 1900, strongly denounced by Mark Twain, VP of the Anti-Imperialist League.
http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/twain/
Then the support for Philippine dictator Marcos.
-Banana Republics established for the sole benefit of American business.
-Dictators in pre-Castro Cuba, Dominican Republic, Haiti, El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua.
-Military Juntas and dictators in Brazil, Argentina, Chile.
-The School of the Americas(now being revived by Bush) for training Latin American military fascists and death squad leaders.
-The terrorist Contras.
-The Indonesian dictatorship, handsomely supported among others by Paul Wolfowitz when he was ambassador there.
ETC. The list is far too long.
Criticizing something that one wants to see improved is a very different project than condemning something that is undeserving of preservation.
If America is worthy of preservation, it must be much more than a nation of monsters and sheep. And perhaps there is some truth underlying the ‘fantasy’ of what America is supposed to be about.
So Americans can’t improve themselves unless someone’s stroking their egos at the same time? Geez, what a pack a’ crybabies.
Which is to say, this is the impression I’m getting from the “don’t let historical fact upset my delusions of exceptionalism” crowd.
Before 1995, the US did not get involved in the Balkans, treating this as a European problem to be solved by Europeans. Europe failed miserably in this regard (Srebrenica! Sarayevo!). The Dutch even apologized officially for their failure. So even if the US was not successful, nobody else was any better. Your point about the non-US UN (and NATO) peacekeepers is taken, but really… Kosovo is peacekeeper’s dream job, when compared to Afghanistan or Iraq. The US soldiers would do the job there as well. C’mon, Polish policemen go to Kosovo… it can’t be be that hard ;-)
bernard: America did a lot of good and bad things because it is a large, powerful nation. Only small and powerless countries do no wrong.
Reminds me of this quote from a Terry Pratchett book (Sam Vimes speaking):
“You can’t say ‘we’re the good guys,’ and then do bad guy things.”
Well, you can, Ethyl, but it makes you a) America, b) horrible, evil hypocrites, or c) both.
If this country were really made of ‘sheep and monsters’, wouldn’t Bush have a high approval rating? Wouldn’t the Democrats have been dealt a stunning rebuke at the polls this last November?
Isn’t there a middle ground (aka ‘reality’) between ‘my country right or wrong’ and ‘sheep and monsters’?
This is what is wrong with our country:
Home Depot’s Nardelli Ousted After Six-Year Tenure (Update5)
By Mark Clothier
[snip]
Jan. 3 (Bloomberg) — Home Depot Inc., the world’s largest home-improvement retailer, ousted Chief Executive Officer Robert Nardelli after investors criticized him for earning $225 million during his six-year tenure.
Home Depot invited further criticism by sending Nardelli, 58, off with $210 million as part of his separation package. Vice Chairman Frank Blake, 57, will replace Nardelli immediately, the company said in a statement.
[snip]
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aaa27FhMtU3Q&refer=home
This sleazy greed is also infecting education. Many state systems are bloated with overpaid chancellors and senior adminstrators who are treated like gods and handed all the perks of a CEO. It is disgusting.
Nobody is the good guys then. We only have human beings, some better, some worse. The same applies to countries.
On the topics of American Exceptionalism and US foreign policy:
Mark Schmitt, The Decembrist, 7/7/07
http://markschmitt.typepad.com/decembrist/2006/06/inhofe_american.html
“Now I happen to think I believe in American Exceptionalism. I believe that it matters that this is the first and only country founded on an idea and an ideal, of equality and justice. As an American, I believe we have a distinctive role in the world, a distinctive obligation, some of which is inherent and some of which is derived from our postwar and post-Cold War status. I think this country’s great — though not that whatever it does is automatically great just because it’s America.”
Paul Wellstone, 6/14/99:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europe/jan-june99/congress_6-14.html
“But I do believe that we can feel, I think, good as a nation and NATO can feel good that we did not let Milosevic do this with impunity. … I wished we could have somehow prevented more of this from ever happening. But I’m so glad at the end of the century that he was not able to do this and the world just turned its gaze away and didn’t respond.”
Paul Wellstone, 10/3/02, explaining his opposition to a US military strike on Iraq
http://www.wellstone.org/news/news_detail.aspx?itemID=2778&catID=298
“I have supported internationally sanctioned coalition military action in Bosnia, in Kosovo and Serbia, and in Afghanistan.”
Typo: The correct date for Mark Schmitt’s quote is 6/7/06. Sorry.
Isn’t there a middle ground (aka ‘reality’) between ‘my country right or wrong’ and ‘sheep and monsters’?
Not on Pharyngula.
I think a lot of Americans would need to go from a “good guys vs. bad guys” mentality to a “guys doing good things vs. guys doing bad things” one.
Are police officers good guys or bad guys? It depends!
Are GIs good guys or bad guys? It depends!
Am *I* a good guy or a bad guy? IT DEPENDS!
On what? On how they (we) behave, what they (we) do. NOBODY is “a good guy” regardless of such considerations; and people may be good one day and bad the next, and then good again the next.
Why is that so difficult to realize?
(I have a hunch that this may have something to do with the need for “absolutes” displayed by naive theists…)
Europe failed miserably in this regard (Srebrenica! Sarayevo!).
Absolutely, but I don’t hear Europeans routinely patting themselves on the back about the grand job they did.
However, playing “who’s the worst in the whole history of humanity” wasn’t my intention, I was just pointing out the hollowness of the commenter’s claim.
By the way, I won’t address the screeching chorus of “you must hate America!” posts individually, but it’s utterly strawmannish to construe PZ’s original post as a call to “contrast and compare” the (mis)deeds of various nations or simply bash America; it was an all too rare sober acknowledgement of the wrongs of the US. Would that everyone took care of the beams in their own eyes, with honesty and courage.
Thirdworlder:
“The US has its problems but I have never been arrested and tortured here for expressing my point of view!”
Try going to a Bush or Cheney function and expressing dissent and let us know how it goes (assuming you can get in).
Americans weren’t yawning then, thery’re not yawning now. They’re plenty angry. And after Jenna and Barbara Jr’s dad makes his speech telling other parents that they haven’t sacrificed enough for his war, people will start thinking about impractical options. He could end up spending the rest of his life wearing the kind of body armor he was too cheap to get for the troops.
I think the issue here (and what PZ is pointing at with the “sheeple” comments) is the very great difference between how the current generation of americans has responded to the excesses of this administration, vs. how previous generations responded to those of LBJ and Nixon.
I see no huge rallys in protest, no “hippie” movement, no real public outcry of any kind compared to the response to the vietnam war, for example.
has the public outcry been “burned” out of americans, I wonder?
There historically has been far more that americans have done in response to perceived injustices than just “vote”, and those actions did have significant effects on policy and national consciousness.
Tom and Daisy Buchanan (aka dubya and laura) will be protected by the ruling class as they always have been….they will always take care of their own.
The solution may be to let him know he is going to be *shunned* if he tries to leave his protective circle ….let any of his televised appearances drop into the ratings basement.
Let his “memoirs” collect dust on the shelves. Let his “presidential library” be visited only by termites and mold.
Let his attempts at talking to “the man on the street” be met with turned backs and cold dismissals.
—————————————–
“It was all very careless and confused. They were careless people, Tom and Daisy–they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made. . . .” (from the Great Gatsby)
zzzzzz
Irrellevant Irrellevant Irrellevant
Nor will the kids learn that atheistic scientists (and if you believe Richard Dawkins most scientists are atheists…he lying of course but he screws himself with that argument) have filled the world with wmds.
Remember, fundies only talk about the end of the world, scientists have made it possible.
but… if Dawkins is lying when he (not) says that most scientists are atheists, then that would mean by your logic that it is religious scientists that have made your end possible, yes?
sterilize the flaw in your own nature, M5.
So PZ is suggesting that people assault the President by spitting on him?
Well, I think that is illegal, so I will notify the proper authorities. Perhaps they will decide it is nothing serious.
Or perhaps they will.
Didn’t we cover that “little prick” thing in the recent Michael Crichton thread?
So, Greg, you think when POLITICIANS use technology to fight what are often thinly-vieled RELIGIOUS wars, the blame for the outcome should be laid full at the feet of SCIENCE? Who’s more to blame – the guy who made the first stone knife, or the guy who first used one to murder his rival?
In response to ichthyic upthread: I suspect the lesser response to the Iraq war is due to Vietnam being a much more intense, longer lived conflict fought in significant part by draftees, not volunteers. Those protests were driven by people who were at real risk of being sent off against their will to fight.
I think there is less outcry over W’s civil liberty violations because a lot of folks feel that they are justified to prevent another attack. I disagree, but fear is a strong persuader, and many generations of Americans besides this one have gone along with restrictions on civil rights during times of conflict.
oooh no… PZ suggested spitting on our joke of a president once he leaves office and is seeking adulation… such a crime. What an offense…
I think PZ and many of us would gladly take the misdemeanor charge and the fine.
In response to ichthyic upthread: I suspect the lesser response to the Iraq war is due to Vietnam being a much more intense, longer lived conflict fought in significant part by draftees, not volunteers. Those protests were driven by people who were at real risk of being sent off against their will to fight.
yes, self preservation was indeed a significant movtivating factor, but certainly not the only one. Which makes me inquire:
do you think that if they reinstate the draft, we will suddenly see mass protests on the same scale as vietnam?
as to longer lived conflict… not for much longer.
I think there is less outcry over W’s civil liberty violations because a lot of folks feel that they are justified to prevent another attack. I disagree, but fear is a strong persuader, and many generations of Americans besides this one have gone along with restrictions on civil rights during times of conflict.
ah, but again comparing to the Vietnam era, we had “communism” as the universal fear factor that supposedly was justification for our involvement in Vietnam (heck, there are still undercurrents we see volunteered by various posters even on this board, from time to time).
It certainly wasn’t fear of communist takeover that disuaded mass protest in the 60’s and 70’s.
maybe the threat of terrorism seems more “imminent” as a fear, and so more useful as a tool?
Greg:
I’m sorry sir, we’re all out of red herrings, and our straw man decorations were taken down shortly after Thanksgiving. Can I interest you in some crow? How would you like it prepared, sir?
A more extensive account of Methodist minister and self-proclaimed Indian hater Chivington can be found in a post by Orcinus, http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/12/eliminationism-in-america-v.html
…people ought to spit on him…”
Waste of good spit.
Geo. W. Bush is another Warren G. Harding. Consider the similarities:
Once in office, Harding admitted to his close friends that the job was beyond him. The capable men that Harding appointed to his cabinet included Charles Evans Hughes as secretary of state, Andrew Mellon as secretary of the treasury, and Herbert Hoover as secretary of commerce. But he also surrounded himself with dishonest cheats, who came to be known as “the Ohio gang.” Many of them were later charged with defrauding the government, and some of them went to jail. Though Harding knew of the limitations of men like Harry Dougherty, the slick friend he appointed attorney general, he liked to play poker with them, drink whiskey, smoke, tell jokes, play golf, and keep late hours.
[…]
Decidedly conservative on trade and economic issues, Harding favored pro-business government policies. He allowed Andrew Mellon to push through tax cuts for the rich, stopped antitrust actions, and opposed organized labor.
Harding knew little about foreign affairs when he assumed office, preferring to give Secretary of State Hughes a free hand. Hughes was concerned with securing foreign markets for wealthy American banks, such as the one run by John D. Rockefeller. Hughes and Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover used the Fordney-McCumber Tariff to secure oil markets in the Middle East, especially in modern-day Iraq and Iran. His administration revised Germany’s war debts downward through legislation, passed in 1923, known as the Dawes Plan. Hughes also called for a naval conference with nine other nations to freeze naval spending in an effort to reduce spending.
Shaken by the talk of corruption among the friends he had appointed to office, Harding and his wife, Florence “Flossie” Harding, organized a tour of the western states and Alaska in an attempt to meet people and explain his policies. After becoming ill with what was at the time attributed to ptomaine (food) poisoning, Harding had a heart attack and died quietly in his sleep. The rumors flew that Flossie had poisoned the President to save him from being engulfed in the charges of corruption that swept his administration. The Hardings never had any children; Flossie died of kidney disease in 1924.
Most historians regard Harding as the worst President in the nation’s history. In the end, it was not his corrupt friends, but rather, Harding’s own lack of vision that was most responsible for the tarnished legacy.
http://www.americanpresident.org/history/warrenharding/
The US has its problems but I have never been arrested and tortured here for expressing my point of view!
no, they just screw with you over here ..ask the scientists at the EPA about “global warming” firings and since bush has messed with habeas corpus, there’s no need to be arrested now…now theyll just pick you up just cuz they dont like your face
The US has its problems but I have never been arrested and tortured here for expressing my point of view!
good thing you never experienced any of the mass protests in the 60’s then, also good that you never expressed contrarian viewpoints in front of Dick Cheney, who most certainly would (and has) have the Secret Service bust your ass.
this kind of ignorance as to what is capable of happening in the US is just astonishing given the current era of mass electronic communication, but perhaps even more astonishing is that it’s also not uncommon.
steve said:
Your movement discriminates against those of us that use well-designed file systems which seldom if ever require defragging.
Your movement discriminates against those of us that use well-designed file systems which seldom if ever require defragging.
“seldom” implies you are living in denial. when will you stop living in denial, llewelly?
;)
Defragmentation forever!
There’s a fantasy of America the rich and wise and powerful and gracious and self-sacrificing that has a powerful resonance in this country. Unfortunately, we’ve learned that we can close our eyes and wallow in the myth, and we don’t actually have to try and live up to it…and we haven’t. Ever.
America is rich and powerful, and occasionally has been gracious and wise. I haven’t seen a nation been self-sacrificing, however, no nation ever is. Nations may miscalculate their own best interests, but they always act in self-interest. So omit the “self-sacrificing”. The last “Ever” is also simply wrong.
“bernard: America did a lot of good and bad things because it is a large, powerful nation. Only small and powerless countries do no wrong.”
OK, what good things?
What “good” did Americans ever do before WWII? Until the end of the 19th century they were busy starting wars with Mexico to conquer half of its territory and wars to eliminate the Indians.
In the 20th century they begin their international imperialist expansion. This expansion was either direct as in the Philippines, or indirect as in protecting “bizness interests” and American “property” in Banana Republics. How, when, and where did people around the world benefit from American “generosity” and “goodness” before WWII?
Don’t even mention WWI, which was not an overarching moral contest, just a 19th century war with more destructive weapons.
After WWII, what have Americans done for the world besides extending its commercial/imperialist dominance?
Americans top search for news on google is Paris Hilton. Their top interest on television is American Idol.
A good commentary is made by Lewis Lapham here.
http://www.cpac.ca/asx/PD_lapham_feb10_eng.asx
One of the things he mentions is that in the 40’s, a high school graduate had a vocabulary of about 12,000 words. Today that graduate has a vocabulary of about 6,000.
It is not useful to see the world through rose-colored glasses.
Here is more on the heroic Americans. Not only did they win epic battles against Indian villages, but also against grizzly bears, buffalo, and even the passenger pigeon. Early Dick Cheneys.
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/12/eliminationism-in-america-v.html
Just a couple of examples.
“”the warriors put the squaws and children together, and surrounded them to protect them. I saw five squaws under a bank for shelter. When the troops came up to them they ran out and showed their persons to let the soldiers know they were squaws and begged for mercy, but the soldiers shot them all.”…
“I did not see a body of a man, women, or child but was scalped, and in many instances their bodies were mutilated in the most horrible manner. … I heard one man say that he had cut out a woman’s private parts and had them for exhibition on a stick; I heard another say that he had cut the fingers off an Indian to get the rings on his hand; according to the best of my knowledge and belief these atrocities that were committed were with the knowledge of J.M. Chivington, and I do not know of his taking any measures to prevent them; I heard of one instance of a child a few months old being thrown in a feedbox of a wagon, and after being carried some distance left on the ground to perish; I also heard numerous instances in which white men had cut out the private parts of females and stretched them over the saddle-bows and wore them over their hats while riding in ranks.””
__
bernarda,
Ain’t Homo sapiens such an enigmatic little primate?
I’m sure if we looked back at our history as a nation we could come up with a few good people and some good deeds as well, eh?
Though you gotta wonder if Atilla the Hun would have thought they were all just a bunch of sissies?
I guess even today our thin veneer of civilization can easily be scratched off to reveal the true barbarians that we all can be.
In today’s paper, we learn that Bush has claimed the right to open Americans’ mail at will, without warrants, in a state of emergency – even though the bill he just signed explicitly reinforces the law which make that illegal.
Experts say he’s using the same reasoning as he did with warrantless wiretapping.
He believes he can do as he likes, and no law can stop him. How does this match the rhetoric about the “rule of law” when he’s a de facto dictator?
I’m sure if we looked back at our history as a nation we could come up with a few good people and some good deeds as well, eh?
What’s the point? We are destroying the planet. We would rather go to war to protect precious oil supplies than make a big deal about climate change. Government is rank with corruption and terribly mismanaged.
We overpopulate the planet. We consume like there is no tomorrow. We amuse ourselves to death to avoid thinking about the messes we have created.
If the founding “fathers” could look at George W. Bush they would puke. They’d be appalled at the level of zoned-out stupidity we have achieved with t.v., the appalling ignorance we promote with televangelism, and the sheep we breed in our mega-church shrines to self-induced stupidity.
No, no, no, Caledonian. We’re exporting our freedoms over there so we don’t have to futz around any more with freedoms over here.[/snark]
On a more serious note, the Preznit’s ‘notice of intent to commit massive felony mail-tamptering’ is just one of a dozen things that should have gotten him impeached, drawn and quartered, but ultimately won’t as long as the peasants can be convinced we still have bread and circuses. We don’t have either any more, but if the peasants think they do, the effect is the same.
America could grow the best pot in the world and distribute it world-wide, free.
Can a nation which fails in this regard call itself, on balance, a benefactor of world-kind?
We could do so much and we smoke so little!
Stogoe et al,
You may have noticed how, since the November elections, Dubya is all about cooperation and casting aside partisanship, and recently cautioned the incoming Democratic majority against making “political statements” in the guise of legislation.
In other words, if the Congress doesn’t play nice with him, it will be the fault of Congress.
This, after basically saying “fuck you” to the Democratic minority for the past six years. This, from the man who vowed to bring “accountability” back (!) to the White House.
Am I wrong to be annoyed with, and disgusted by, this ongoing farce?
“Am I wrong to be annoyed with, and disgusted by, this ongoing farce?”
No. Republicans will use other people’s humanity as a weapon while never showing any humanity themselves. I am not quite sure how they became so un-American and anti-human decency, but I suspect it is a combination of cultish zealotry to authoritarianism and an “ends justify the means” mentality. There is a victimization complex that plays into this too, I think.
That’s a rather broad brush (my best friend is a Republican, and very human) but I don’t disagree that that is the case with regard to this Administration and many of its supporters. You’ve hit the nail on the head by identifying the Machiavellian tendencies of this current batch of Neoconservatives, who seem to put more faith in Leo Strauss than in Jefferson and Monroe. Will this dark period end with the 2008 elections? I certainly hope so, but won’t fool myself into believing there are any guarantees.
“That’s a rather broad brush (my best friend is a Republican, and very human) but I don’t disagree that that is the case with regard to this Administration and many of its supporters.”
Yes. I needed a qualifier, but I did not catch the omission in preview. Maybe Neocon is best since it includes some in congress and enablers as well, but there are a lot of perfectly reasonable republicans who should not be tarred with the others. I apologize.
Here is more on the heroic Americans. Not only did they win epic battles against Indian villages, but also against grizzly bears, buffalo, and even the passenger pigeon. Early Dick Cheneys.
Early Dick Cheneys?
nawwww. If they were all like Dick, they would have all shot each other in the face, and missed the animals and indians.
The indians would have been laughing.
afterthough: No apology is necessary, but even though I was not offended (and believe I knew just what you meant) I do appreciate the gesture. I’ve often had to remind myself not to generalize too much or too often, and given how naturally it comes to us human beans, it can be pretty hard. I wasn’t chastizing, just reminding. :-)
Regardless, it is clear that we agree on the main points…
A good book on revisionist history is ‘Lies my Teacher Told Me.’
Also, (at least in sunny California), spitting is considered assault.
Is it really possible för male primates to piddle and wank at the same time?