Zeno has this quote from an acolyte of D. James Kennedy, Dr. Paul Jehle, and I have to shake my head in disbelief.
I was taking calculus. I was a mathematics major and I was at a Christian college that was called Christian, but was not Christian….
I asked a question to my calculus professor: “What makes this course distinctly Christian?” He stopped. He said no one has ever asked that question before…
He said, “Okay, I’m a Christian you’re a Christian.”
I said, “That’s not what I asked! What makes this calculus course distinctly Christian? What makes this different from the local secular university. Are we using the same text? Yes. Are you teaching it the same way? Yes. Then why is this called a Christian college and that one a non-Christian college?”
So the fact that taking a derivative isn’t accompanied by a few hallelujahs mean it isn’t Christian? Would it help if they wrote out “dχ / d†”? Maybe he needed to take this course, a calculus with bible verses, instead.
Or just maybe, that mathematics stuff is hellbound anyway.
The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell.
St Augustine
So what’s a professing Christian doing going to school as a math major, hmmm?
To make it fully christian he should teach mathematics without zero. After all it was the creation of dirty pagans and was spread to Europe by the muslims.
Praise the Lord and pass the graphing calculator?
Shouldn’t he been in some suburban mega-church preaching prosperity?
“I keep telling you, the ability to add two digit numbers is not witchcraft!”
“Thirty-one plus forty-three.”
“WITCH WITCH WITCH”
The only Christian Math I can think of would be on how to calculate probabilities of amino acids, specified complexity (and other inane things), taught by William Dembski.
Many of you who own websites very accurately predicted that the fundies would not stop at ID and evolution, it was only the start of the stupidity to come. Astronomy and the age of the universe arrived quickly on it’s heels. Per the crazies, global warming, all science, and now even math is in the toilet because they can’t shoehorn it into the bible, or at least their version of it. They want to welcome us back to the dark ages.
“The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell.”
ah-HA! I knew it! I certainly suspected this when I was struggling, argh-ing, and cursing my way through my calculus classes!
“I keep telling you, the ability to add two digit numbers is not witchcraft!”
“Thirty-one plus forty-three.”
“WITCH WITCH WITCH”
We’d at least need math to determine if the witch weighted as much as a block of wood, to see if floated like a duck……….
“I keep telling you, the ability to add two digit numbers is not witchcraft!”
“Thirty-one plus forty-three.”
“WITCH WITCH WITCH”
We’d at least need math to determine if the witch weighted as much as a block of wood, to see if floated like a duck……….
Calculus was the most profoundly religious class I took in college.
It was hell. I prayed a lot. And I passed by a miracle.
All Christians know that 3=1. Why continue with a discipline that proves otherwise?
completely off topic: http://www.ihumpedyourhummer.com
If you go to Zeno’s post and read the whole thing, you’ll find the good Doctor also takes a swipe at “jungle music.” Why, you could knock me over with a feather!
You’re wasting your time citing any saint to a true Christian(tm). Saints are “false idols”, created by the satanic and apostate Catholic Church to confuse, befuddle and lead astray.
And Catholics ain’t real Christians(tm) .. just ask any evangelical fundie. (Having been raised Catholic and a decent understanding of English I nearly choked when I first heard this. I had assumed christian meant (follower of the Christ). I was not yet acquainted with the mind(ugh!) of you’re average evangelical.)
Despite now being a very happy Athiest (more so, if that’s possible, by the day) I’m in full agreement with Doc Bill regarding calculus as religious experience.
It’s not as strange as you might think – I have a friend who teaches at a Christian college and there are actually a couple of questions on the student teaching evaluations along the lines of “How well did the professor show his/her faith in class” and “Did the professor adequately incorporate God into the material” and so on.
Because I am a bibliography geek, I had to track down the source of that St. Augustine quotation. According to Furman University’s Mathematical Quotation Server, it comes from De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37. Unfortunately, it seems that Augustine was using “mathematician” to mean “astrologer”.
De Genesi ad Litteram (On the Literal Meaning of Genesis) does have a few not entirely brain-damaged things to say, but Augustine is plainly willing to give Faith supremacy over Reason:
On “but is it Christian?”: Coming from that backround I can *almost* understand the mentality. When you send your kid to Christian school and make sure they listen to Christian music and Christian radio and watch Christian television and read Christian books, the natural conclusion is that if it’s not explicity Christian then there’s something wrong with it. On a more general note, I think it’s a great example of how people can be taught something (even as rigorous and clear-cut as math) and still completely miss large chunks of what it means. Unfortunately even calculus is still pretty much in the realm if memorization and computation, and way too many people never get a feel for its uses or for what math is really about. Maybe such a broader perspective would help shake off the blinders that lead to such silly statements.
On Augustine: That quote was so good I just had to see if it was real. According to Wikipedia ( http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo ) the quote as given is from a book published in 1953 (“Mathematics in Western Culture”), a later source more accurately translates a key word a little differently: “The Latin word mathematici derives from the Greek meaning of “something learned” and refers mainly to astrologers. This was the chief branch of mathematics at the time but has been replaced in modern times by statistics. According to the Shorter OED on Historical Principles 3rd edition the word Mathemetician still meant astrologer as late as 1710.” Too bad, it would have made a great quote for my quote file.
Hey, wants the difference between a secular university and an atheist university?
As I said before, I’m a Christian. The question the student asked is ridiculous. I don’t see how calculus can be “Christian” or “Non-Christian” (unless you count ANYTHING not related to going to church on Sunday as “Non-Christian”, which would be a rather silly and not very enlightening claim). Of course, I may just not understand the almighty power of mathematics in the realm of good and evil. See http://homokaasu.org/gematriculator/ (BTW, this website is rated by the gematriculator as 23% evil, 77% good. I don’t know if PZ thinks that is an adulation or condemnation).
I’m going to have to resurrect this blast from the past — Mel Gabler, former Talibornagain textbook censor:
“When a student reads in a math book that there are no absolutes, suddenly every value he’s been taught has been destroyed. And the next thing you know, the student turns to crime and drugs.”
There you go. Math = crime and drugs. Don’t you guys feel rebellious now? (I prefer my crime and drugs with sex and rock and roll, personally, but chacun son gout.) I guess Christian math would leave out the values-destroying “no absolutes” part…?
Hmmphf. What a completely ridiculous argument. Let’s not stop there, by all means. Let’s indict calculus itself because Newton secretly denied the Trinity and studied the occult, or because Leibniz held strange, unbiblical ideas about monads.
What’s especially maddening is that there is a simple rejoinder from the perspective of belief: calculus is a product of God’s gift of reason, and that to worry about whether or not it is inherently Christian is not only missing the point but a waste of God’s gift, shame on you.
By the way, when you read the link, it becomes clear that the fellow’s target is not unbelievers, but folks like me who go to church but accept little facts like evolution and global warming. Within the church, the strongest dressing-down seems to be reserved for folk like me. Why do you think THAT is?
Peeved…Scott
Did someone say something about the new branch of mathematics known as Creation Math?
Here’s a fine example:
http://evolutionanddesign.blogsome.com/2006/07/24/specified-complexity/
Check out the first 9 comments in that thread. The rest of the comments are so disturbing that you’ll need to take ten showers to wash the stench off your brain.
Creation Math is defined as math that has no real world application except to confuse people or promote religious belief.
(P.S. Michael Hubl was banned from posting to that blog when he dared to ask Prof. McNeill’s li’l darling Hannah why she refused to admit that nobody on earth could apply her bullshit to a real world biological object)
Some examples of math problems you’ll never see at a Christian college:
6 * 111 =
3 * 222 =
665 + 1 =
Given that the Bible says pi = 3, I think that kinda messes up their Engineering programs as well. Never hire a Christian engineer, I guess.
I’m amazed that nobody has mentioned that extraordinary book Precalculus for Christian Schools. The first review contains some hilarious excerpts.
What do you mean “no absolutes”; the absolute value of -4 = 4. ;-)
I generally suck at math, but I do think it’s really, really neat. And crucially important to rational thinking.
I do sometimes think I have an “intuitive” grasp of it, I just suck at the number-crunching, computational part of it. My best subjects were geometry & trig…algebra always kicked my ass. Calculus was a mixed back–some of it I was ok with, other parts no. If I hadn’t been so lacking in confidence in math, I might’ve gone into Chemistry or some other natural sciences field instead of liberal arts.
But I do have a good layman’s understanding of science, and a deep appreciation for the power of mathematics, especially probabilistic (sp?) reasoning.
Some mathematicians I’ve heard of take a nearly spiritual approach to their work…especially if what they’re doing is more abstract and theoretical rather than applied and concrete—but spiritual does *not* mean dogmatically *religious*–an important distinction.
My dad is a retired public school earth science teacher, though once, to suppliment his retirement income, he did teach part time at a Lutheran school and deliberately self-censored himself, cutting out any reference to evolution. I really thought that was a shameful thing to do, and I still do. My dad had given me a bedrock foundation of scientific reasoning from an early age; I think I set foot in HMNS way more often than in a church growing up–so coming from him it seemed like an especially odious sellout. At least he doesn’t teach there anymore.
If money were no object, I’d go back to college and take as long as I needed do take all the courses I’d need to get a math degree…I would take a refresher math course just for fun, honestly. Might do better if I wasn’t so worried about a numerical grade or graduating…and be more receptive to learning how I f*cked up on test rather than just being emotional–angry & frustrated.
Anyway, just my random $0.02 worth. -JJR
The christian math was the most perverse I’ve seen since… um, never.
“Once a person has been called to be a Christian, we are redeemed by Christ but not released from following the law of God. We are justified once but continue with the process of sanctification for the remainder of our lives. This sanctification process is like the limit process of the secant lines approaching the tangent line.”
They even mix numerology into their religion in order to confuse their understanding of math!
BTW, today I learned that this is what Francis Collins supports ( http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/08/the_ubiquitous_francis_collins.php ) through being a member of the American Scientific Affiliation christian apologetic organisation.
They have essays that proposes that “Students should not only be taught “the facts” which modern textbooks present. They should also know that there are different presumptions as to what constitutes a “fact,” as well as different interpretations and uses of them.”
What verses go with HOX genes?
MikeM mentioned pi which though rational, must be decidedly unChristian. And let’s not forget the irrational numbers or the complex. Surely they are the inventions of Satan himself. “Twas probably a Christian engineer who designed the bolts to hold up the ceiling of Boston Ted Williams Tunnel. Like MikeM said, best not to hire a engineer who studied Christian engineering or math.
The fella’s target is churchgoing folks who accept evolution and global warming because we atheists are already “lost,” whereas the fundies think they can still save you, Scott. Oh, goodie! Doesn’t that warm your heart?
I remember some fundie flurry in the 1980s about “no absolutes in math” and those evil conic sections being taught to our children. I wish I could find the source–one fundie blatted on and on about that devil’s spawn, the coordinate axis. In between those wholesome whole numbers, there were other numbers! The idea! And negative numbers. Why do we need them? Numbers between numbers into infinity…its name is Legion! Get it? Get it?
I thought this stuff was over with. How sad!
(Sarcasm alert!)
In my line of work (as a commercial litigation attorney) the jury determines the facts (unless the judge decides there is “no evidence” to support the jury’s determination).
So, let the jury determine what the facts are.
Of course, we also have voir dire, which is the process by which the lawyers pick the jurors. Would they all have to be Christians? Atheists? Scientists? What about Wiccan?
Augustine, who was philosophically a Platonist, was big on mathematics. Like many an other, he thought that the soul’s ability to understand the eternal truths of geometry revealed its kinship with higher things. As somebody pointed out above, the word mathematician meant astrologer in Augustine’s time.
We should be so lucky as to have Christian apologists as intelligent and knowledgeable as St. A.
I once was a university math instructor and I am certain that many students subscribed to the notion of “Faith Based Calculus” when they were taking tests in my class.
Jim says: “We should be so lucky as to have Christian apologists as intelligent and knowledgeable as St. A.”
Perhaps, but I for one would prefer to do without what plausibly transpired from
the writings of Augustine, his City and his philosophy of “persuasion”. Paul Johnson
does a nice job of showing the many sides of Augustine in his “A History of
Christianity”.
Given that the Bible says pi = 3, I think that kinda messes up their Engineering programs as well.
They only reported their measurements to one significant figure. :)
I think my favorite part is this, from his imaginary dialogue with a non-Christian:
“Do you like the New Age movement?”
“Yes.”
“Okay, It’s built on Hinduism. Let’s look at all the Islamic countries over in Europe. Tell me which one would you like to live in?”
It’s kind of like John Belushi ranting about how it wasn’t over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.
From just reading PZ’s post, I felt myself agreeing with the guy. After all, there is nothing intrinsically Christian (or non-xtian) about mathematics. So the whole idea of xtian colleges is a bit of a fraud, huzzah. But then I realised that his point was the exact opposite of what I thought…. Oh, dear.
The wikiquote article here:
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Saint_Augustine
claims that a correct translation for what Augustine said should be “astrologer” not “mathematician”… what do you guys think of this? I love the Augustine quote and have used it a lot in the past, but in the interests of intellectual honesty, if it is incorrect I will stop.
That St. Augustine fellow may be onto something in the case of William Dembski
Now, how did I know that one of you would bring that laughable, meritless claim up again? Oh, right. Because you’re as predictable as sunrises.
The Latin word mathematicus translates the Greek word mathematikos. It does mean mathematician in some contexts, but especially by Augustine’s time, it usually meant astrologer–there was an imperial law against mathematici, whose predictions were often thought to be seditious. There is no question that Augustine was referring to astrologers in the quoted passage. As I wrote above–and my knowledge of Augustine is from his own writings, not secondary sources–he had the highest respect for mathematics.
One of the great differences between late antiquity and the present is that Christianity no longer has any defenders of Augustine’s stature. Which is not to say that the Saint was right–as an atheist myself I certainly don’t buy into his theology. I do recognize his human greatness in comparison to the moral and intellectual midgets with whom we now contend, however. We are not fortunate in our opponents. There’s small glory in outstripping donkeys.
Jim Harrison said: We should be so lucky as to have Christian apologists as intelligent and knowledgeable as St. A.
Right, but he did have that one little hangup where he thought that the Bible “gives no false information”. For instance, regarding the “antipodes”, Augustine says:
But they do not remark that, although it be supposed or scientifically demonstrated that the world is of a round and spherical form, yet it does not follow that the other side of the earth is bare of water; nor even, though it be bare, does it immediately follow that it is peopled.
He does have a point there, but then after that he gets to what one suspects is the real heart of his objection, which is, that the antipodes just ain’t biblical. Augustine complains “yet it does not follow”, but yet he takes it for granted that there are demons and angels and that his religion is the only true religion, and all that other fun “poofy” stuff. However, if Augustine were alive today, there is no question that he would be a hard core atheist given the fact that we’ve come so very very very very far since those olden days.
Let’s look at all the Islamic countries over in Europe. Tell me which one would you like to live in?
My first choice would be the Emirate of Iceland, but frankly I’m not terribly picky.
“given that the Bible says pi=3”
Now, how did I know that Jason would laugh at this. Because he’s as predictable as troll when the sun rise. Or maybe i’m just affirming the consequent.
Besides, there’s no problem with the bible saying pi=3, because God is there to fill in the gap. Accepting this will lead us to the knowlege that god is approximately 0,14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510
God = pi-3
Now, the real challenge is to figure out what unit.
Indiana tried to legislate the value of pi. The story also mentions that the Biblical value of pi is 3.
As has been hinted at above, Christian maths is ironically similar to occult maths.
1+1+1=3
Well, we know He’s not unitless, since He has a Son.
Um, actually this is the answer. Rick nailed it. I’m an engineering support person and I would be totally unsurprised to see this sort of dimensioning if the tolerance was to the closest unit… though I can just picture the conversation around this….
“Hey, boss, I noticed something about this bowl. You know that stick we used to make sure it wasn’t lopsided? I can fit it around the outside three times, just about. Look.”
“huh? If you don’t have enough to do, why don’t you go polish those graven images or something? Get out of my face with that occult crap.”
Of course, “all the Islamic countries in Europe” is, ummm…. a tiny corner of Turkey. So plenty of choice there.
Well, we’re discussing explicitly Christian maths. I don’t remember the Bible making many other mathematical claims – maybe you can point some out for us, to demonstrate how mathematically accurate the Bible was…
Of course, the real point of “Jesussizing” calculus et al is to prevent the student from developing a Satanic dependence on logic or deductions. After all, rationality is Eeevil. Lobotomies for Christ, everyone!
Ironically, according to Genesis, the reason we’re in this world instead of Eden is because we gained the “knowledge of good and evil”. This has produced a recurring theme in Christianity: the attempt to renounce that knowledge, thereby attempting to sneak back into Eden (not the same as Heaven!) and rejoin the various beasts in their “moral innocence”.
In fact, there are indeed a few nominal humans running around, who have successfully freed themselves of that diabolical moral awareness. The rest of us call them “sociopaths”.
“Given that the Bible says pi = 3, I think that kinda messes up their Engineering programs as well. Never hire a Christian engineer, I guess.”
That’s probably why the Hebrews had to outsource Solomon’s temple to the Phoenicians. It was very similar to the temple of Melqart in Tyre. That’s right folks, God’s first real place of worship was patterned after a temple dedicated to the Cannanite god of the underworld and son of Baal, or son of El, depending. Then again El is more than likely the proto-Jehovah of Hebrew fame. So when you get right down to it, you Christains are really worshiping some ancient, Cannanite pagan deity.
Waitaminute. Christian calculus? Didn’t some weirdo on some other thread claim (misleadingly, but nevermind) Newton and Leibniz as Christians?
Had to chime in, since I went to one of those Christian colleges that Carlie mentioned. If you want to know which ones to avoid, their names are Dordt, Calvin, Trinity, & Hope. It’s a neo-calvinist philosophy that drives that kind of thinking.
At Dordt, where I went, the students and teachers in the B.S. fields were of the opinion that those sort of questions were just something to be tolerated and given the usual pat answers to keep the administration happy. ;)
However, the teachers were always ready to answer the question, “How is this course distinctly Christian?” The general answer, at least from what I gathered, was that studying the world was a form of worship…not too unlike how Darwin saw his own studies before his discovery of evolution scrambled his religious presuppositions ;) They still think of themselves as natural theologians, I guess.
Wrong! The right answer is
1+1+1=pi
Bob
I like banana cream pi.
I bet Kirk Cameron would love banana cream pi.
“We have christianized pagan jungle music that goes by the terminology of Christian.”
Maybe he’s just jealous that he’s a white guy with no rhythm. . .who can’t get a Nubian princess for himself.
Jeez, I make one little statement about the Bible and p = 3, and then I go away because I’m so dern busy at work, and BOOM!
I truly and deeply apologize for not taking part in a firestorm I started. What is that, twice in the last 3 weeks??
Sorry. Sorry. Sorry!!
In the dictionary definition of DEMENTED FUCKWIT!, is that a picture of me I see?
The Bible says pi = 3. Sorry, Jason; it’s true. And I thank you all for your support.
Some Christian apologists take comfort in explaining away the “pi = 3” claim of Kings by making assumptions about the thickness of the temple vessel and then saying that 3 is the ratio between the outer radius and the inner circumference. Clever. A good example of this dodge is here, for those who want to see more.
Never underestimate the ability of apologists to bend over backward.
It’s not that the imprecision of these measurements as cited in the Bible cannot be excused – it can. (Is any engineering effort ever as precise as the science behind it?) It’s the Fundamentalist insistence that “good science should never contradict scripture” that makes criticism of these errors mandatory.
Blake Stacey said: “De Genesi ad Litteram (On the Literal Meaning of Genesis) does have a few not entirely brain-damaged things to say, but Augustine is plainly willing to give Faith supremacy over Reason:”
Ah, that explains why Augustine was so easily hoodwinked by scammers like Saint Ambrose.
Lol, those clowns are supposed to be “saints”.
Lol, the scam artist Saint Ambrose is all that there fancy stuff up there. That’s freakin hilarious.