Comments

  1. Allen in Kansas says

    Matt,
    Your rant hit home with me. My father is a preacher who I have heard talk of using the funeral of a “saint” as a means to reach “lost” family members,who may be in church for the last time in their lives, by preaching a sermon of salvation and giving an alter call. I won’t be surprised if he leave such instructions for his funeral or if his preacher takes it upon himself to do that, perhaps even explicitly calling me out. Do you think that could happen to you? I am interested in your thoughts on responding to such an event.

  2. Lamont Cranston says

    For the last caller in Richmond, IN, indeed Richmond is a small town where finding people who are not highly religious may be a challenge. However, it’s not impossible. With a little looking I found that there is a group that has a meeting coming up on April 7th in Connersville about 25 miles away. https://www.meetup.com/Whitewater-Freethought/ . At least it might be worth sending a message to the organizer who may know of other options. They have 50 members and 6 people already signed up for that meeting.

    If you don’t stop by here, hopefully someone on the show who has access to your contact information may be able to pass this along.

    Whatever you do, I wish you the best.

    Lamont Cranston

  3. Lamont Cranston says

    Oops. I only got to watch the last caller live. Now I am going back to watch the earlier part of the show and the first half hour to hour is missing on Youtube. All I get is the last hour of the show followed by the rally last week. I wanted to see what the announcement/rant was about. Hopefully it will be fixed eventually. I know from Talk Heathen it had something to do with a birthday card to Matt and a family member?

    Lamont Cranston

  4. says

    As above – wondering what I missed before Matt’s recounting of his mother’s letter. Couldn’t the non-AXP content have been separate?

  5. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @Lamont Cranston #4:

    the first half hour to hour is missing on Youtube

    An mp3 is in the show archive. (1:40:59)
     
    Usually the live all-in-one video lingers a while after airing, then gets replaced with individual shows.

  6. Lamont Cranston says

    Holy smoke. Just when I think people can’t be that clueless, they prove me wrong. Yes, I went and listened to the audio.

    Yes, I have seen, heard and experienced worse, but not in a long time.

    Especially to do that to a young whipper snapper like Matt on his birthday no less. Yep, I’m old.

    I hope the “young whipper snapper” comment makes you feel better in spite of the fact you probably will never see this. Maybe someone will tell him I called him that. 🙂

    Lamont Cranston

  7. jabbly says

    My favourite comment of the show was I support Liverpool as they follow Islamic ideals. That’s some top grade mental gymnastics right there.

  8. Manou says

    HI, I watched Matt discussion with Saad, most of Saad argument was not true, for example about praying 5 times per day it,s not what he explained, this type of argument is just excused to believing in an unbelievable religion. I suggest reading a book which has been translated into English from Persian, give you lots of information about Islam. The book name is “23 years” by Ali Dashti, a study of the prophetic career of Mahmmad. There he explains why Moslem praying 5 times a day and much more( highly recommend ). I am an ex-Moslem. I love your show, and I think you do a very important job to educate people.

  9. says

    It may be my imagination, but were Matt and John particularly patient and even indulgent with the Muslim caller (Saad?) from Pakistan?

    Frankly, I was relieved when Matt finally uncorked at the very end of the call, after a brief amping up of his evident frustration. Because that guy, who seemed polite and decent enough, was no better than many a misguided, confirmation-bias-intoxicated Christian caller in the way he sought to defend his faith whom I’ve heard Matt (particularly) eviscerate after much less time.

    It seemed to me one way to approach Saad — not that he would have necessarily heard it — would have been to explore how he managed to be so “lucky” as to be born into a hyper-religious society and family that, voila!, just happened to believe in the “true” religion. Because really, despite his proclamations of great, deep examinations of other faiths, he was just displaying the expected bias of one who was raised in particular faith, whatever it might be.

    I wonder — and may be wrong, obviously — if Matt and John treated Saad with more velvety kid gloves for much of the call in deference to the fact that he is Muslim …. or even an unconscious susceptibility to the dreaded nonsense among many of my fellow progressives that to criticize Islam in any way is “Islamophobia.”

    Also, with regard to Muhammad’s adherence to local and historic norms with regard to women (Saad’s defense of Islam against the charge of misogyny was particularly weak), marrying/betrothing 9-year-olds in a manner suggesting the girl was mere property, and so on, I kept thinking of a really good book I just read: “Alpha God: The Psychology of Religious Violence and Oppression” by Hector A. Garcia, which takes an evolutionary biological approach to examine why humanity has created the gods it has. So, just another shout out to that book.

  10. kylemcclane says

    Proving once again that truth is stranger than fiction, I don’t think anyone has ever dreamed of saying “weelllll, 9-year-olds nowadays use iPads” as a defense of some skeevy old pervert taking a child bride.

  11. Varkey says

    Sadly there is still a lot of intolerance, including in Pakistan law and society (e.g its anti-blasphemy laws and politics which were used against Asia Bibi).

    I would have thought societies would move to being less intolerant based on religion with time, especially with access to information. It is sad to see the laws in Brunei going the way. I imagine this is the religious right getting more strident as they see themselves losing power. I expect within 50 years time this will change – i.e. when a 20 year old Bruneian is 70 – but of course harm will be done in the meantime.

  12. Varkey says

    In the BBC/Vice documentary ‘The Satanic Verses 30 Years On’ the younger people were not that aware of the book and although they did not like it, they were not moved to burn it, unlike an older person who grabbed it and then burnt it apparently off camera. It was an interesting doc if a little provocateur-ish and voyeuristic (as many BBC and Vice docs are imo).

    I could not find a legit link, so here is an article about it:
    https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/feb/27/the-satanic-verses-30-years-on-review-what-an-astonishing-fallout

  13. Varkey says

    I was watching a video of Jaclyn Glenn talking to her Grandfather who is very homophobic and racist (I did not want to post it as it is very offensive), and to see the difference in 2 generations is stark.

    Like in the documentary ‘My Dad the Peace Deal and Me’, Patrick Kielty talks about dealing with his Catholic father’s UVF killers being freed as part of the Irish Peace Process. He says if that is what it takes for Peace then that is what it takes. And he is warmed to hear kids in an integrated school disagree but get on.

    Here is an trailer, and a clip where he talks about his father’s death (again I could not find a legit clip of the whole doc):

    https://www.facebook.com/BBCNI/videos/my-dad-the-peace-deal-and-me/1852987954733084/

  14. Monocle Smile says

    I wonder — and may be wrong, obviously — if Matt and John treated Saad with more velvety kid gloves for much of the call in deference to the fact that he is Muslim …. or even an unconscious susceptibility to the dreaded nonsense among many of my fellow progressives that to criticize Islam in any way is “Islamophobia.”

    This again? This irritating accusation has been floating around for years.

    The answer is “no, you’re either just hearing what you want to hear and/or this is merely an artifact of being more familiar with Christianity.”

    Seriously, the “AXP are all Muslim lovers” trope was overplayed from birth.

  15. moldred says

    Did you get the book I sent you about modern slavery all over the world involving more people than in ancient times?

  16. buddyward says

    @moldred #16

    Is this supposed to justify that what Mohammed did was OK? Whether it happened back then and it is still happening, it is still a deplorable act.

  17. bawdygeorge says

    @ #9 Claywise – I’m also surprised Matt let Saad go on with his used-car-salesman level of blather for as long as he did; it was getting quite tedious. The arguments were so utterly lame, and that usually gets shut down pretty quickly. Matt just seemed really disinterested here.

  18. RationalismRules says

    HI mods,
    The video linked to on ep 21.12 (ie. the previous episode) is incorrect. Currently showing Matt & John, instead of Tracie & Jen.

  19. RationalismRules says

    @claywise

    I wonder — and may be wrong, obviously — if Matt and John treated Saad with more velvety kid gloves for much of the call in deference to the fact that he is Muslim …. or even an unconscious susceptibility to the dreaded nonsense among many of my fellow progressives that to criticize Islam in any way is “Islamophobia.”

    Well done, you got your conspiracy theory in without needing to offer any supporting evidence, simply by starting your comment with “I wonder…”.

  20. Pam S says

    I got an email on Christmas morning full of Bible verses telling me why I should stay with my emotional abusive husband I just left. Christmas morning. My brother won’t barely talk to me. And I lost a best friend. My son died a year before. Yet the most important thing is I stay in a marriage that is causing me pain because God wants me to and he can do anything. Well he let my child die. I am just done.

  21. Spencer-Lloyd says

    John, thanks for posting the link to “End times is a here…”
    Scary to think people watch it seriously.
    Cheers

  22. twarren1111 says

    I don’t get much exposure to Islam except thru media. So, yes, while I found Saad tedious (and, btw, he called into talk heathen the same day and talked to Matt then for quite a while) it was instructional to me to see that it doesn’t matter what the tenets are, using a faith based method of determining how things relate is a waste of time.

  23. Raucous Indignation says

    You should talk to them how your most recent debate went. And last night’s show. And your Patreon. And the book your writing. Send them links to your videos. Talk to them honestly about your life’s work. You are proud of what you do? You should share that with them. Often. Or constantly. Incessantly even. Especially at holiday gatherings. Especially then.

    Good luck, Matt.

  24. t90bb says

    16, 17…moldred,,,,,are you a muslim?? Are you justifying marriage to a 9 year old?? yes or no??

  25. t90bb says

    moldred……..and since we are all slaves and its so prevalent….if I provide my information will you commit to move into my garage and be owned as property for the next 10 years…….I will not beat you to death….and not so bad as to knock out an eye or teeth…..you might be beaten so severely that you might die in a day or so….but not immediately. Cool?

  26. Varkey says

    I do not know Saad so cannot speak for him. He reminded me of the ‘liberal’ upper middle class in Saudi Arabia portrayed in the BBC documentary ‘Inside the Real Saudi Arabia: Why I Had to Leave’.

    Here is a clip form that, showing the contrast between the ‘liberal’ generally younger, generally well to do, and her being asked to leave SA for talking about the women activists still in jail who campaigned for women’s right to drive:

  27. Varkey says

    Here John Dehlin talks about how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is changing:

    At 19:16 he talks about the church saying don’t kick your LBGTQ kids out

    At 41:31 : 59:00 he talks about some things improving, others things getting worse.

    At 1:01:52 -1:04:24 he talks about how the church is changing, mostly for the better, not through the power of revelation, but Google.

  28. paganbaby says

    Claywise: “It may be my imagination, but were Matt and John particularly patient and even indulgent with the Muslim caller (Saad?) from Pakistan?”

    Yeah, sure thing Claywise. Telling Saad “Fuck Muhammed!” showed MD’s excessive patience and indulgence for Islam. Matt is such a pc snowflake!

  29. twarren1111 says

    @#29Kafei
    Kafei, I am curious as to what you are trying to say by posting that video? As an atheist, when I see that video, I could easily make it apply to any faith-based religious process. Eg, I could replace every mention of Islam, the Koran, etc, with references to Judaism, the Torah and OT, etc, or with references to Christianity, the New Testament and OT, etc, and have the same video. I also could replace it with Perennial Philosophy and come up with the same overall points.

    And that is why I am asking. The problem with faith-based reasoning is that it is the most inefficient way to arrive at how our reality works. And what you have continuously espoused on this blog is your faith-based reasoning as to how our reality works. So…aren’t you calling the kettle black?

  30. Claywise says

    @Monacle Smile, 15.

    Re Well done, you got your conspiracy theory in without needing to offer any supporting evidence, simply by starting your comment with “I wonder…”.

    Fair enough. I know that this is how conspiracy people often shoehorn in bad ideas without evidence.

    That said, in my opinion, you are leaping to conclusions here about my thoughts, beliefs and intentions without evidence to support them.

    Here was the evidence leading me to *wonder* (yes, really; my mind was not made up): I found Matt unusually patient with Saad, whom he’d (apparently; I didn’t listen) spent considerable time with on Talk Heathen already. I felt that Saad was badly botching his defense, flashing bright yellow confirmation bias almost from the get-go, and yet to my ear, the host and co-host gave him quite a lot of time to ramble.

    Mostly, it comes down to the fact that Saad, while pleasant and polite, presented screamingly bad “argument” after argument, and sometimes (at least), Matt in particular has little patience for that kind of caller, whatever his/her beliefs. But truly, I posed the question because I wondered if others had the same perception, and I certainly hadn’t made up my mind. In this case, the conspiracy was no such thing, believe it or not. Just trying to generate some discussion on a question that occurred to me.

    Again, it’s AXP and I know this happens with many different kinds of callers. Perhaps my perception — note, *not* certainty — was wrong.

    Here’s the report from inside my head: I do not subscribe to a “AXP are all Muslim lovers” belief; indeed, this show was the first time it occurred to me to wonder about their handling of a specifically Muslim caller. And while I’m a weekly listener, and fairly frequent visitor, occasional poster, to the blog, I don’t recall having heard or read this charge before. Also, I’m not reflexively anti-Muslim any more than I’m reflexively anti- all religion.

    @paganbaby, 32.: It was a 20-minute call — not unusual, for AXP, obviously — but it just seemed to me that Saad was engaging in the kind of blindingly obvious fallacies typical of believers that Matt usually eviscerates in (fairly) short order. I was happy, as stated above, when Matt finally ran out of patience.

  31. Claywise says

    If I may add a few words to my line at 33., “… this show was the first time it occurred to me to wonder about their handling of a specifically Muslim caller.:

    I *have* groaned out loud and wondered this very same question in relation to plenty of other callers who seem to be going on and on, making poor arguments or spouting baloney or dodging the hosts’ questions on many occasions — this was just the first time the caller in question was Muslim.

  32. Claywise says

    Argh. My apologies, in 33. I was responding to Monacle Smile,15., then quoted Rationalism Rules at 22.

    I apologize for the error.

  33. Varkey says

    Saad compared religion to supporting Liverpool. Liverpool fans say, “You’ll never walk alone”, but there is no caveat for if you are LBGTQ.

    I am a Liverpool fan and I can get the euphoria and community spirit, without having to play mental gymnastics, as I feel many religious people do who are liberal and religious. And I can feel free to disagree with the team, like the way they handled the Suarez, Evra racism issue.

    Like most Liverpool fans I am buzzing about the way they beat Spurs on Sunday, and the internet has brought Liverpool fans together, like it has other communities, like TAE, filling a void religion filled for many.

    Like funny listening to Talking Reds talk about the physics of the last goal at 1:16, or the meaning of Hasenhuttl at 11:26. A major segue for those interested!

  34. Ian Butler says

    I agree that Matt let Saad go on unusually long. It may be because he had used up all his indignation on his parents in his amazing opening screed, but
    it felt like he was allowing Saad to make his arguments so he and the audience could get a sample of how an articulate liberal Muslim defends the indefensible. We’ve all heard the Christian version all our lives so there’s no need to hear it again, but for most of us Muslim apologetics are relatively new territory. And since Matt doesn’t know the Koran the way he knows the Bible, he can’t just cut to the chase since he doesn’t know what the caller is going to say before he says it.

  35. buddyward says

    @claywise #33

    The problem with your post in #9 is that you are not only presenting your observation but you are also proposing a possible explanation on the reason why the hosts are particularly patient with Saad. You focused on the possibility that they have been unusually patient because the caller is Muslim or that they are afraid of being labelled as Islamophobes. You are trying to lead the conversation towards that topic as opposed to just stating the unusual patience that the hosts exhibited.

    The show does not get a lot of Muslim callers and perhaps the hosts are just less familiar with the Quran as opposed to the Bible. Matt have also just finished exposing a very emotional part of his life and perhaps he realized that he needs to hold back else he might say something that he might regret. There are many other possible explanation for their behavior that day but you chose to accuse them of possibly being biased towards Muslim.

    I am not going to make any judgements on the host unless there is a clear pattern. This one data point does not give enough information to make a conclusion. This is what conspiracy theorists do, the latch on one data point to confirm their bias.

  36. twarren1111 says

    Full Disclosure: I muted much of Saad’s conversation as I was listening in real time and reading at the same time. One nice thing about the show presentation is that with the caller ID on the bottom of the screen one can ‘edit’ as one listens in real time and/or the format of the caller ID can be used to fast forward through callers when watching the youtube video post of the show.

    So that’s how I first thought that Saad’s call was a bit long…though on mute it continued…and I also noted something: Matt looked as if he was ‘zoning out’ (possibly)…idk if that’s true of course but it could explain it…but, I did catch the ending where Saad tried to apologize for child brides and I noted how ‘funny’ it was that his hypothesis to justify pedophillia was the same logic used by so many christian apologists to ‘explain’ slavery.

    anyway…

  37. says

    @twarren1111

    Kafei, I am curious as to what you are trying to say by posting that video? As an atheist, when I see that video, I could easily make it apply to any faith-based religious process. Eg, I could replace every mention of Islam, the Koran, etc, with references to Judaism, the Torah and OT, etc, or with references to Christianity, the New Testament and OT, etc, and have the same video. I also could replace it with Perennial Philosophy and come up with the same overall points.

    And that is why I am asking. The problem with faith-based reasoning is that it is the most inefficient way to arrive at how our reality works. And what you have continuously espoused on this blog is your faith-based reasoning as to how our reality works. So…aren’t you calling the kettle black?

    I disagree. Did you even watch Dr. Malik’s presentation? One major point he made is that the New Atheist movement make no distinction between the violent extremist practitioners of the Islamic faith and more peaceful and non-extremist members of the faith. That’s not really done here in the U.S. or the U.K. relative to Christianity or Judaism or other related faiths nor is it even done with Perennialists as there aren’t many Perennialists around the world. Malik goes on to make other good points assumed by the New Atheist movement such as religion and science are incompatible or that only science can give us answers about everything, but that was one in particular I was posting about, if you really were curious.

  38. Claywise says

    @buddyward, 42.:

    Re “… you chose to accuse them of possibly being biased towards Muslim.” (I am presuming you meant biased in favor of Muslims.)

    In my OP, 10., only two paragraphs might be construed as “accusing” the host and co-host of kid-gloving Muslims:

    My OP, 10., first paragraph: “It may be my imagination, but were Matt and John particularly patient and even indulgent with the Muslim caller (Saad?) from Pakistan?”

    That’s a question, couched with an acknowledgement that my own hunch may be in my head. To me, it doesn’t read as an “accusation.”

    My OP, 10., paragraph 4: ‘I wonder — and may be wrong, obviously — if Matt and John treated Saad with more velvety kid gloves for much of the call in deference to the fact that he is Muslim …. or even an unconscious susceptibility to the dreaded nonsense among many of my fellow progressives that to criticize Islam in any way is “Islamophobia.”’

    Prefaced by my awareness that I “may be wrong,” this is simple speculation about one reason why the hosts might show what I call “deference” to a Muslim caller. But again, in my opinion, far from “accusing” anything, and surely not a sign that I’m a down-low subscriber to some hidden agenda and conspiracy.

    To reiterate: Yes, I know that conspiracy theorists and bomb-throwers often use the “just asking questions” technique as a way to stir the pot and introduce noxious ideas with the possible goal of influencing people to adopt those ideas themselves, while pretending they are not.

    I just don’t believe my comment in 10. comes anywhere close to that. And while I know some people question the importance of “intent” these days, that certainly *wasn’t* my intent, and I do not subscribe to the idea that AXP hosts (Matt, John or any other) have some broad pro-Muslim bias in the way they handle callers — nor did I say so.

    I spent most of my working years as a journalist and am a writer by profession. I despise online nastiness, name-calling, one-upsmanship and so on, so I strive to be polite and precise in my wording. Obviously I fail at that sometimes, but I truly believe my post at 10. was polite, honest, sincere and anything but accusatory. So I have been a little taken aback by what I perceive as needlessly aggressive responses to it.

    For the record, it seems that some listeners agreed with me that Saad was allowed to go on a bit, but for the most part, they don’t see this as some conscious or unconscious reluctance on the part of the hosts to vigorously engage Muslims. I accept that judgment of the community, based on the responses to this thread, and appreciate those who took time to engage; that’s why I made the post in the first place, to solicit discussion and opinions.

    Clearly, I waded into subject matter that has been hashed out here on the forum before. Perhaps the more vociferous responses to me — in my opinion, unwarranted in their aggressiveness — is due to that.

    Again, thanks to all who have responded, including those who disagree with me.

  39. Monocle Smile says

    @Kafei
    How do you not choke on all that straw?
    For someone who constantly bitches that he’s not being properly understood, you sure do like to saddle others with positions they evidently do not hold.

  40. Ian Butler says

    Claywise,
    I found your comments perfectly appropriate, and appreciate your clarifications. Sometimes a comment will remind some readers of previous comments made by others, and then they will respond to what the others had said as if you were them. It’s a reminder of the scientific concept known as the “principle of charity”, which states it is best to respond to the most reasonable interpretation of someone’s words.

  41. Claywise says

    @Ian Butler, 49.

    Thanks for the thoughtful words.

    I often think of the principle of charity as, simply, “Assume good intentions.”

    I realize that some people think it’s silly or unrealistic to strive for civility on the shoot-em-up innnnnernet frontier, but that’s the way I’m built. If that makes me a “snowflake,” so be it.

    Merci beaucoup.

  42. buddyward says

    @ Claywise #45

    In my OP, 10., only two paragraphs might be construed as “accusing” the host and co-host of kid-gloving Muslims:

    My OP, 10., first paragraph: “It may be my imagination, but were Matt and John particularly patient and even indulgent with the Muslim caller (Saad?) from Pakistan?”

    That’s a question, couched with an acknowledgement that my own hunch may be in my head. To me, it doesn’t read as an “accusation.”

    My OP, 10., paragraph 4: ‘I wonder — and may be wrong, obviously — if Matt and John treated Saad with more velvety kid gloves for much of the call in deference to the fact that he is Muslim …. or even an unconscious susceptibility to the dreaded nonsense among many of my fellow progressives that to criticize Islam in any way is “Islamophobia.”’

    How many paragraphs does it take in order to confirm an accusation? Perhaps accusation is the wrong word, perhaps, as you have pointed out that it is a question, “insinuation” would be a better word to use.

    Prefaced by my awareness that I “may be wrong,” this is simple speculation about one reason why the hosts might show what I call “deference” to a Muslim caller. But again, in my opinion, far from “accusing” anything, and surely not a sign that I’m a down-low subscriber to some hidden agenda and conspiracy.

    To reiterate: Yes, I know that conspiracy theorists and bomb-throwers often use the “just asking questions” technique as a way to stir the pot and introduce noxious ideas with the possible goal of influencing people to adopt those ideas themselves, while pretending they are not.

    Then you understand why we took your words to be similar to the ones used by conspiracy theorist. I hope that you understand that we are making observations based on what you wrote which you admit can be construed as the same tactics that conspiracy theorist use.

    I just don’t believe my comment in 10. comes anywhere close to that. And while I know some people question the importance of “intent” these days, that certainly *wasn’t* my intent, and I do not subscribe to the idea that AXP hosts (Matt, John or any other) have some broad pro-Muslim bias in the way they handle callers — nor did I say so.

    I spent most of my working years as a journalist and am a writer by profession. I despise online nastiness, name-calling, one-upsmanship and so on, so I strive to be polite and precise in my wording. Obviously I fail at that sometimes, but I truly believe my post at 10. was polite, honest, sincere and anything but accusatory. So I have been a little taken aback by what I perceive as needlessly aggressive responses to it.

    For the record, it seems that some listeners agreed with me that Saad was allowed to go on a bit, but for the most part, they don’t see this as some conscious or unconscious reluctance on the part of the hosts to vigorously engage Muslims. I accept that judgment of the community, based on the responses to this thread, and appreciate those who took time to engage; that’s why I made the post in the first place, to solicit discussion and opinions.

    There are at least 3 of us that took your post as insinuating Matt and John as being more patient with Saad because he is Muslim. I do not see anyone who agreed with your insinuation. I see them agreeing that the hosts were unusually patient (that includes me) but to agree that they were more patient because the caller is Muslim is something I have not seen. Perhaps I missed it and if so I apologize.

    Your intent is not something that readers of your post can fully discern. We can only try and comprehend what you write and if we misunderstood what you wrote then perhaps it would be a good idea to clarify your point. I commented on your post not to accuse or insinuate that you are making actual accusations but to show how I understood it and apparently how others did so as well. I figured that by pointing that out you would see how we took it and perhaps make a note for the next time you post a message. I am neither a journalist nor a professional writer but one thing I did learn from one of my basic writing class is to know your audience.

  43. Monocle Smile says

    @Kafei
    Of course you do. I’ll just let that foolish post stand since there’s no point in trying to convince you of anyone’s actual position. You’ll just lie about it later.

  44. Claywise says

    @buddyward, 51.

    Fair enough. I appreciate your taking time to respond.

    Merci beaucoup.

  45. RationalismRules says

    @buddyward #42
    Exactly. Can’t really improve on what you’ve said there.
     
    @Claywise
    If you expect others to apply the principle of charity to you, then you need to start applying it to others. Out of all the possible explanations for Matt’s behavior, the only one you chose to hypothesize on was the one that suggests a lack of integrity in Matt’s behavior – that he would give special treatment to Muslims because of excessive adherence to political correctness. That is the opposite of the principle of charity.

  46. Varkey says

    People can be more worried about petty perceived over-PCness than people not being included. I am speaking in general here rather than to police a debate on this board.

    I self-segregated at work due to the casual (and not so casual) sexism and racism, and this was perceived as my failing and affected and affects my career. My boss married 2 women in the office (not at the same time) and just kept getting promoted, a guy kept knickers of women he slept with in his desk draw and when a woman complained to him, he hung them out like washing. My boss got touchy and kissy posing for photos with a woman at a company dinner, which is bad enough, but he did not realise it was the wife of someone who worked for him. Awkward.

    I was known for complaining, and one team leader out of nowhere forced into a conversation with me that everyone likes sex and anyone who complains is not getting it. That from a team-leader (who was a concern-troll attack dog for the managers who he knew would protect him). I would organise after work badminton, but when people started to use it to hook up with the interns (who happened to usually live in a house on my street) despite having partners, I stopped and was given the passive-aggressive bully treatment for doing this – and was accused of being passive-aggressive.

    I got sick of people using pick-up artist techniques like negging and ‘shock and awe’ as they called it (which is just being pushy and not taking no for an answer) on me, to control me, not to sleep with me, I think they thought the tricks worked in all situations! I remember the pick-up artist book The Game being passed around, and being read with little critical thinking I suspect.

    BNP literature would appear on the notice boards (not placed by the company), and the management was very white and male even when the guys were not that highly qualified or professional or good at managing, and there were far more qualified POC under them. Opportunities would get filled even when I applied straight-away, and even if the person who got it did not apply, but got a tap on the shoulder. I could go on and on and on.

  47. Varkey says

    Islamophobia is a big problem. People with Muslim names are discriminated against in the job application process, and then like me they may have to deal with idiots once at the job:
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/candidates-with-muslimsounding-names-three-times-more-likely-to-be-passed-over-for-jobs-a3459141.html

    I am not Muslim but am often perceived as one. I have had many slurs thrown at me just walking down the street. If I use an Anglo-Saxon invective like telling them to F-off, I can get threats or be assaulted. I have been assaulted, and last year I was attacked and kicked unconscious after running after a car ornament thief (someone actually shouted stop thief), I was found by a couple who said racist abuse was being said to me as I was being kicked in the head while unconscious (despite being threatened by the thief to leave him alone, I had said I was not going to attack him but was not scared of him). My nose was fractured and I have difficulty breathing through it now.

    In Liverpool in 2005 on the tube train, a guy got up from his seat and sat opposite me and said Osama, Saddam, boy. No one did anything. I said nothing till we got off at the same stop and then he continued, and I said I would happily call the police.

    I remember being bizarrely, angrily threatened with being kicked out if I missed another class on my first day at Cambridge University, for accidentally making a mistake on my timetable and missing a practical (there were attendance rules but no way near that strict, and I was so apologetic). A white female student who did a similar thing in another class was reassured and told not to cry.

    I was scrutinised by a student who lived opposite to me in the quad, who would tell me my light was on late at night, and insisted I was studying when I had fallen asleep with it on (like it matters), or that I was lying about going to state school when it came up in a conversation, or that I looked tired, even when I said I wasn’t, if I had not shaved but had had a good nights sleep (I guess she thought I was up all night studying again! It’s what us Asians do!). Being young she did get to me, and I look back and wish I had told her to go…….herself. I was far too polite back then – you don’t need to spare the feelings of those who don’t spare yours.

  48. Varkey says

    Damn, just seen how much I have written, and I have gone on a bit now and I’m not sure why!

    Tommy Robinson and his ilk do try to play on the extreme side of Islam
    eg at 9:00 – 12:11 in the clip below
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqjpna8aLBE

    I have heard an ex-Muslim say he is tired of well meaning atheists adding that they also disagree with Christianity, like a disclaimer – but I do not see the harm, even if a little awkward, if people are trying to distance themselves from the EDL etc, as that is a real source of problematic conflation.

    And I can see why POC women being whitesplained by men, on racism or voluntary clothing can be annoying:
    eg a clip from BBC Questiontime
    https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1047977556086050816

    And also in the very interesting documentary The Headmaster and the Headscarves:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7x9UaPLsN0

    Some atheists are deliberately heavy footed, which is appropriate at times, but there are arguments to tread more carefully at times. At 8:08 – 11:33 Gina Colvin talks about how completely erasing spirituality can erase cultural connection and do more harm:

  49. Varkey says

    Not that I think most atheists want to forcefully or bullyingly stop religion, like imperialism!

  50. Timos says

    @Claywise #45
    Keep in mind that there are a lot of times that Matt and other hosts were a lot more lenient towards christians and a lot more austere against muslims. It’s obvious that they are not going to behave the same way each time, a lot of factors can come in to play. Mood is the most obvious thing. Have you ever had this kind of conversations with people? From my experience for example, I’ve had hours long calm conversations with christians with bad arguments and short conversations with more logical people depending on my mood. Also here I’ d like to point out that after talking to someone on Talk Heathen and encouraging him to call again on the axp then it makes sense to be more lenient. Lastly, are there not a lot of examples in axp where Matt shows no lenience towards Muslims? So when you ‘re saying “I wonder” and then following that with what appears as a personal bias (that would be your problem with being more lenient towards muslims for a fear of being called an islamophobe) I don’t think that it’s surprising that people would think you ‘re making a baseless accusation. That being said, you followed it up with good clarifications and that’s way more important, but I just thing you ‘re missing the point of your first statements phrasing problem. It’s not that “conspiracy people also do it”, it’s that you are it’s not sincere, you say that you wonder something but then you ‘re making not only a statement about why Matt did that, but also giving the intent behind that too.

  51. Varkey says

    Further to this clip I also posted in comment 57, the EDL try to associate Islam in general with child abuse and grooming gangs (as well as violent extremism). At 4:26 – 7:22 in the clip:

  52. Varkey says

    I should have said 3:06 – 7:22 in the clip above, for more context on what happened in Rotherham, and that the system failed.

  53. speedofsound says

    I thought the method of attacking the culture and morals of the book used on Saad somehow abruptly missed the point and took it off track. Who cares about the morality of a stinky old prophet or a super-being that doesn’t exist?

    Seems like the weaker of the arguments we could engage in.

    Have to watch it again, i did zone out, but it just seemed kind of off track at the end.

  54. AtheistNotAgnostic says

    @Varkey
    Holy shit dude stop with the barely relevant multi-posting. It just clogs the thread and makes it hard to follow what’s going on. One idea at a time please.

  55. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    Varkey #57:

    Damn, just seen how much I have written, and I have gone on a bit now and I’m not sure why!

    Why indeed.
     
    Comments: Axp – 22.48 #38-#54 (more at the link)
     
    Varkey #45: “Let the tag-team pedantic bullying and enabling begin (or continue). Eg. calling out my responses and ignoring others and blaming me for being disruptive. Yawn.”
     
    Varkey #46: “And in advance, “thanks” to the people who police further, for proving my points.”
     
    Secular Strategy #47: “Varkey, your habit of posting random youtube links was, perhaps unknowingly, a behavior that some found to be rather obnoxious. Someone alerted you to this fact respectfully, and you responded in a most unpleasant manner.

    If there is any part of you that cares about the quality of discussion on this forum, then please heed my sincere advice: Tone it down.”
     
    Varkey #48: “By someone do you mean a moderator or an unsolicited life coach/annoying person. The latter. Bye. Self appointed BB police to the rescue.
    […]
    i’ll of course keep posting as I have been doing in an appropriate manner for a FREE THOUGHT BLOG.”
     
    Monocle Smile #50: “My feeling is that Varkey has behaved in similar fashion on a number of other forums and received similar feedback. This isn’t going to stop and will probably get worse. Hope the mods are watching.”

  56. Ian Butler says

    Thanks varkey for reminding us that being a little more patient with a persecuted minority isn’t automatically a character flaw.

    While I didn’t conclude that’s what Matt was doing, it was one possibility I considered during the course of that call. Only Matt can know what his actual intention was, but if in fact he was being a little kinder specifically because the caller was Muslim that’s fine with me. I hate the effect of that the Muslim religion has on society, but I hate Muslim bashing even more, and have sympathy for it’s adherents who just want to go about their lives but must face daily bigotry, especially in the era of Trump.

    Whatever Matt’s reason, the way he handled the call was actually effective, he let Saad show us his faulty reasoning rather than interrupt him constantly. And at the end he clearly eviscerated Saad’s cherry picking.

    Something is amiss when musing whether someone is being deferential to a persecuted minority is seen as an insult.

  57. Varkey says

    I wrote the post as one, but realised there was a post limit per post afterwards, so just split it up. Was not planning on writing anything of that length again. Hardly War and Peace though. Anyone was welcome to skip past it, not taxing to scroll down a bit. Oh the clogging! Like a dodgy plumber. I have not posted in a while, and was already not planning on doing so for a while longer, I now think I will self-segregate from this place too, whatever compels/inclines.

    @ CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain
    Thanks for missing the point, including on all those stalker-esque quotes which lack context, and are hardly smoking guns as you seem to think, and just highlight your ill-will and controlling nature. The internet rarely fails in this regard. This place may be more toxic than where I worked! It is close.

  58. Monocle Smile says

    Varkey, you are melodramatic, obnoxious, and generally unpleasant (basically, you’re a Pharyngula regular), which is a shame because you do sometimes add value to these threads. Previously, Secular Strategy offered the most patient, polite explanation after multiple people responded negatively, and instead of showing some self-awareness, you decided to blame everyone else for your issues.

    I now think I will self-segregate from this place too, whatever compels/inclines.

    I doubt you’ll be missed. Your inflated sense of self-importance is particularly grating. Let’s see if your ego lets you stick the flounce.

  59. Varkey says

    @ Monocle Smith
    Thanks for piling in. Undramatically I might say, like your non-moderator, yet generously moderating peers.

  60. buddyward says

    @Varkey

    First off, I am sorry to hear what you have and are still going through. I do not live in the UK so please keep that in mind when I sound like I am ignorant in my comment. Your employer and place of employment sounds like a very unhealthy place to work. I suggest that you find another place to work.

    Your story about getting assaulted, harassed and discrimination is horrible and I hope that you are working on a way to get yourself out of that situation. You mentioned that you went to Cambridge which I believe is a very prestigious university which leads me to believe that you are a well educated and skillful human being and thus you should not have any issues finding employment elsewhere.

    Having said all that, I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make with telling your stories and presenting videos of people displaying hatred towards Muslims. I do not see anyone here who advocates for such behavior. You are not suggesting that these people who are showing hatred towards Muslims are atheists, are you? I also do not see how your posts relates to the most recent episode of AXP or to atheism per se. Perhaps you can make a concise statement on what you are trying to convey and how it relates to the show and\or to atheism.

    Lastly, if you are going to present a video or some sort of reference, it might be a good idea that you present your own views so that we can address your point. It is pointless for us to watch a specific video or read a specific document when we do not know your position. Saying that someone else say it would be harmful if spiritual connections are severed leads only to an argument from authority/non-authority fallacy. If you have read any other threads in this blog you will find that we are very much fed up with that kind of fallacious argument.

    Just to emphasize, I do not see any atheists here that would advocate for people who shows hatred towards any group and anyone that does gets banned from this blog.

  61. jabbly says

    @Varkey #40 Give it a few more weeks and you can be saying next season is going to be our season 🙂

  62. Varkey says

    I was making a general point; not about TAE. I think I tried to express that. For clarity my main point was that people who may go the extra bit to say they are not against Muslim citizenship or similar, are not necessarily being over-PC. Especially when they are new to an audience and have no form. They have good reason to not want to associate with the likes of the EDL who may express some common points. Also they can be annoying and not aware of the bigger issues people may be dealing with if they try to police clothes etc. I think that was what I was trying to say, as well as highlighting the issue of Islamophobia/racism for context.

    I actually left my job (before getting a new one – not ideal), perhaps I used the wrong tense at times. I am currently looking for work after taking a break.

  63. Varkey says

    Also that self-segregation (or differences) for whatever reasons, can cause the exclusion of people so it may be understandable if some accommodation is made to those individuals, again as opposed to seeing that as being overly PC.

  64. buddyward says

    @Varkey #71

    If you are not talking about TAE or anything that relates to the show or atheism then I would assume that you understand how people here would object to your posts. This is not a blog that you can use as a platform for you to simply post anything unrelated to the show. I am hoping that you understand that by doing so, people see you as simply spamming the thread because what you are posting is really off topic.

    I do not know if anyone here can help you find a more appropriate blog where people would be more engaging to your topic but posting off topic messages in this blog are understandably met with stern responses as it does take time to read walls of texts that has nothing to do with the purpose of the thread.

  65. buddyward says

    @Varkey #72

    You are choosing to segregate yourself from others and you expect them to make accommodations for you. I think that is a bit unreasonable. If someone chooses not to be included in a specific group that is their prerogative but you cannot expect the group to make accommodations for you after the fact that you chose to exclude yourself from them. Perhaps it would be a better idea to find a group where you want to belong to and be accepted instead of focusing on the ones the don’t and expecting them to accommodate you.

  66. Varkey says

    Hard disagree. Take it up with the moderators not me. I am losing interest in justifying my posts.

    Talking about religious issues is very relevant, unless you are being very narrow, and conveniently (or selectively) putting on a straight-jacket. It was said in the context of people talking about the PC-ness of Saad’s call, and Saad’s call in general. Although, like I said, I was moving it to a general point, rather than wanting to get dragged into how Saad’s call should have been handled. Perhaps I did not make that clear, but it is pretty apparent given other people’s posts on the topic.

  67. Varkey says

    @74
    Whatever, hard disagree again. Suggest you watch that episode of Godless Bitches on privilege. Can’t be bothered to go into it further.

  68. says

    @Monocle Smile

    Of course you do. I’ll just let that foolish post stand since there’s no point in trying to convince you of anyone’s actual position. You’ll just lie about it later.

    You’re constantly filled with criticism, but with no facts to back it up. Y’ever notice that?

  69. buddyward says

    @Varkey #75

    So instead of learning how you can have a civil, relevant and productive conversation in this blog you are going to choose to force whatever topic you want to discuss and not take into account the purpose of this blog or the people that contributes. This just demonstrate how you lack respect towards other people in this blog. I tried to explain how this blog works and you are having none of it. Glad to know where you stand with regards to having a relevant productive conversation. I cannot speak for other people here but I will adjust my comments accordingly.

  70. Varkey says

    I suggest you explain to the moderators how this board works so then can do your bidding.

  71. buddyward says

    @Varkey #76

    You mean the privilege that you can just post any topic you want and not have people here disagree with it? That pointing out the flaws in your post is deserving of a flippant dismissal of “whatever” amd “take it up with the moderators”. This must be some kind of “advanced” communications tactic from Cambridge.

    Dismissing a group of people simply because they do not agree with you even after explaining how things work in the group that is more than willing to accept you for as long as you stay on topic and be respectful. Right, I can see you becoming more and more popular now.

  72. buddyward says

    @Varkey #82

    Oh I am not here to get you banned and thus I do not have to talk to a moderator.

    I am trying to apply the principle of charity here so as to make your stay here more pleasant and productive to everyone but I guess you would much rather be more combative. I am going to enjoy reading the responses to your comments.

  73. Claywise says

    @RationalismRules, 52.:

    Re “That is the opposite of the principle of charity.”

    Not sure I agree. And once again, I think you are using the wrong word, a too-strong word — though a different one than before — with “hypothesize.” I mean, sure, I was thinking out loud, but again, couching it time and again with my own doubt. How about “surmise”?

    And to me, I was “assuming good intentions” (the way I like to phrase the principle of charity) with Matt and John — *their* good intentions, whether or not I might agree with them, to treat someone with respect.

    But hey: Consider me chastened and sufficiently woodshedded, OK? I’m letting it go.

    Thanks.

  74. Varkey says

    See comment 82, and then 83 cos I messed that one up a bit. Man, it would have been quicker just to re-type it. Or even quicker to not respond to people acting as a troll sheriff. That would make a good film title. I called it here first.

  75. Claywise says

    @Ian Butler, 64.:

    I sure do appreciate your approach to all this.

    We agree here and there on the matter at hand, disagree here and there, but in all your comments you have been polite, straightforward and, in my opinion, very charitable to various parties, from the hosts, to Muslim people besieged by the fearful and thoughtless, even to li’l ol’ me.

    This line sums succinctly sums up my feelings to all this: “Something is amiss when musing whether someone is being deferential to a persecuted minority is seen as an insult.”

    Again, as you pointed out earlier, I obviously wandered into a minefield that had been laid long before I came along.

  76. buddyward says

    @87

    I guess you are just too thick and self centered to realize when someone is trying to help. You just want to play “victim” in just about any interaction that you find yourself into. That makes me wonder the validity and the accuracy of the stories that you told.

  77. Varkey says

    If you are just trying to wangle the rights to Troll Sheriff, I won’t be sharing. Even if you were the muse. It was all my idea. Maybe you can be my plus one at the Oscars. Bye my muse, I can take it from here, and just deal with David Duchovny from now on, as I think he will be keen to get the title role. I loved him in X-Files.

  78. paxoll says

    I was making a general point; not about TAE.

    If you can’t make a coherent point relevant to the show, or the conversation about the show, please leave. Racism and bigotry in the EDL is completely irrelevant to the discussion here. Sexism at your workplace, is crappy, it is also irrelevant here. I recommend you go commiserate at Pharyngula, speak with a lawyer about discrimination law in your area, or contact a local activist group if you want to seek some kind of social justice against the company. Most people here probably do care about what happened to you, and would happily read about it in an appropriate forum, but that is not here.

    Was anything TAE said or did here racist or sexist? Was any comments criticizing TAEs response to callers racist or sexist? What are you expecting to see as a response here? Do you go to your water company and complain about your gas bill? I know, go find a forum on the sectarian violence in Ireland with the upcoming Brexit and see if they want to hear about how crappy the male chauvinism is at your old work place. Just because you might not think atheism and critical thought is a issue worth time and discussion doesn’t mean you need to drop into this forum to hijack the conversation.

  79. RationalismRules says

    @Claywise

    I think you are using the wrong word, a too-strong word… with “hypothesize.” I mean, sure, I was thinking out loud, but again, couching it time and again with my own doubt. How about “surmise”?

    You might want to crack the dictionary on this one – you appear to have ‘hypothesize’ and ‘surmise’ the wrong way around.
    To ‘hypothesize’ is to offer a possible explanation/solution for something. There is tentativeness built in to the term.
    OTOH to ‘surmise’ is to reach a conclusion without evidence.
    I was being charitable by not accusing you of ‘surmising’.

  80. Honey Tone says

    For those folks who think Matt was too, um, let’s say, kind to Saad, you might want to pay closer attention to what Matt said and did during the call. Yes, he let Saad try to make his points. But Matt didn’t give him an effing inch. He called Saad out on all his BS, he turned away every point he tried to make, and then after cutting Saad off for his dishonesty, proceeded to spend several more minutes pointing out the flaws and inconsistencies and stupidity in that religion.

    Maybe you don’t have the patience for it, but I enjoy it when a host patiently dissects a believer point by point. And I think, without any actual data, of course, it’s more likely to have a more positive long term effect on that believer and others rather than just cutting them off and therefore appearing as merely rude.

    For all I care he could have spent the entire broadcast trying to make that believer realize Islam is no better and may actually be worse than any other religion.

  81. buddyward says

    If you are just trying to wangle the rights to Troll Sheriff, I won’t be sharing. Even if you were the muse. It was all my idea. Maybe you can be my plus one at the Oscars. Bye my muse, I can take it from here, and just deal with David Duchovny from now on, as I think he will be keen to get the title role. I loved him in X-Files.

    So you do not have any intelligent arguments to present and thus you accuse anyone who disagree with you as trying to be a moderator in this blog. You then proceed to fabricate some sort of irrelevant story regarding the Oscars. Presenting a strawman argument does not make your position any stronger. If you want to take all the credit for your disillusions be my guest as I do not want to be associated with someone who cannot make valid and sound arguments.

  82. Varkey says

    @whoever (those who repeatedly try to police and do the job of the moderators, despite not being moderators, and make up rules and relevance, and try to create an inaccurate and uncharitable narrative. Stay in your own lane. You are free to leave. How calmly and politely said by me – not passive aggressive at all, like others)
    See comments 82 and 83, I am getting good use out of those poorly typed but otherwise fine comments. Move on.

  83. paxoll says

    @Varkey, there is no real moderators for this forum. The people that have the power to moderate the forum typically log on the day after the show in order to authorize new comments, they might browse once a week to see if there is any criticisms of their performance they feel they should address. So telling people they are not moderators and should stop acting like it, is pointless. Make a useful contribution to the topics of the show or anything related to atheism/theism and/or reasoning or leave. There are comment sections and forums for talk heathen, godless bitches, non-prophets, and every other show you feel your comment might be relevant to, but I doubt you’ll get much better reception unless it is relevant to the topics at hand.

  84. Varkey says

    Asking people to move on, so narcissistic, no wait. I would ask to see another self-appointed armchair shrink.

    Although “politely” being asked to leave an internet site for such inoffensive, reasonable behaviour is quite funny. The made up rules here are worse than being at The Dorchester. “Sir, you used the dessert spoon, instead of the soup spoon. Please leave. Good day sir…….I SAID GOOD DAY SIR.”

    “You sir with the sword, those Hushpuppy shoes will not do sir. We’ll have a Rolls-Royce take you back to the airport. Please leave now sir.”

    Although in this case it is just like some randos acting like they run the gaff.

    Leave the moderation and narratives of how it is, or should be done, to the moderators. To paraphrase a conversation between Lisa and Homer Simpson:

    “Who will moderate the moderators?”
    “I don’t know, the coastguard.”

  85. Varkey says

    Although if people have reasonable grievances or behaviour is unreasonable etc, unlike in this case I would say, I imagine the moderators would engage with, or act on feedback.

    Anyway. People are welcome to move on…..

  86. Varkey says

    Incidentally, I just remembered The Dorchester is owned by the higher-up officials in Brunei. I think George Clooney called for a boycott after Brunei passed its anti-LBGTQ laws. But then most are not going anyway, cost and everything. Although for those who would otherwise use it, a boycott may help change things. Rather than talk about using the wrong spoon, or having the wrong shoes, I should have mentioned being stoned to death for loving someone of the same sex.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dorchester

  87. Monocle Smile says

    Look carefully and you’ll see that Kafei has dared me to waste my time by explaining how nobody here or on AXP takes some of those stances he parroted from Malik. This is a waste of time because Kafei will promptly pretend that this explanation never happened whenever it’s convenient.

    I have no interest in teaching calculus to a dog.

  88. says

    @Monocle Smile I never said that anybody from the AXP parrots the views expressed by Malik. He was speaking for the people who make up the so-called “celebrity atheists” of the New Atheist movement, he talks about Dawkins, Hitchens (acknowledging his death), Victor Stenger (acknowledging his death), Harris, Dennett, etc. If you don’t identify with the strategies he’s referring to, then obviously it’s not relevant to yourself.

  89. Monocle Smile says

    I never said that anybody from the AXP parrots the views expressed by Malik

    Oh, so you just posted that crap on THIS BLOG for shits and giggles? Don’t insult my intelligence, asswipe.

  90. says

    Yes, shits and giggles. It’s said in Buddhism that the moment you attain satori, nothing has left you that moment but to laugh.

    Insult your intelligence? Why so defensive? What I’m referring to is those who identify with the “New Atheism” movement as described by Malik, not anyone in particular, but if one name was to be associated with the AXP, I’d point out that Matt is often considered the fifth wheel to the Four Horsemen of Atheism.

  91. says

    Of course, I didn’t post it for shits and giggles. I posted it for discussion. Malik makes excellent points all around, he also has written papers on the semantics involved in these discussions à la Steve McRae and the content he addresses on his channel.

  92. indianajones says

    @Varkey Just to put some numbers on it, what percentage of your posts are not advancing your point whenever, but are instead addressing bb police et al other posters? In your estimation I mean.

  93. Varkey says

    Less in absolute numbers than the policing/trolling remarks for sure. You’re one for one on that. 100%. Good job talking about atheism issues and moving on. Police on (forget atheism). Others will be around soon too as the sunrises across the Atlantic, many to waste people’s time on their bulletin board politics, and then play the victim/moderator/life coach, all self-appointed of course. They are inspirational, Troll Sheriff 2: I Offer No Leeway When It Suits With My Made Up Rules, And Don’t See Obvious Relevance So No One Can; I can see it now. Catchy.

    Take up issues with the mods and you can ask them for stats too, but I’m guessing they will not be interested in the latter, much like me. Troll Sheriffs on the other hand eat this stuff up.

  94. t90bb says

    hey Kafei……how is that channel your started coming??? Or was that bullshit like the rest of everything else you try to peddle?

    Complete Mystical bowel movements are not proof of your magic universal genie or perennial philosophy or any other philosophy…..you lose Mr time waster!.

  95. indianajones says

    OIC. Well, best of luck with the workplace/EDL/discrimination/relevance stuff then.

  96. Varkey says

    BTW to clarify, was OIC meant as ‘Organisation of Islamic Cooperation’, or oh, I see, or both or whatever? I’ll assume: oh, I see.

  97. John Iacoletti says

    Varkey – we’re receiving complaints about you. Please keep your comments on topic and don’t spam the blog with youtube links.

  98. Varkey says

    Okay. i felt I was being within the bounds of reasonable behaviour, while trying to add new but relevant things to the debate, and while trying to move on from uncharitable comments and trolling/policing/toxic behaviour sent my way. I saw the links as illuminating, just as words are, not much difference in my eyes, wasn’t trying to dominate or spam the board. I don’t feel this is the place for me, as i have suggested before, or I am for it. I’ll just move on as many have requested. Cheers.

  99. buddyward says

    #106

    Yes, shits and giggles.

    #107

    Of course, I didn’t post it for shits and giggles

    Self contradiction in the span of 6 minutes. That is just awesome.

  100. says

    @Varkey

    Okay. i felt I was being within the bounds of reasonable behaviour, while trying to add new but relevant things to the debate, and while trying to move on from uncharitable comments and trolling/policing/toxic behaviour sent my way. I saw the links as illuminating, just as words are, not much difference in my eyes, wasn’t trying to dominate or spam the board. I don’t feel this is the place for me, as i have suggested before, or I am for it. I’ll just move on as many have requested. Cheers.

    Cheers! You think this is not the place for you?! I’ve typed jokes construed as self-contradiction, apparently. Satire doesn’t come across easy when it’s typed out.

  101. buddyward says

    Cheers! You think this is not the place for you?! I’ve typed jokes construed as self-contradiction, apparently. Satire doesn’t come across easy when it’s typed out.

    Got caught with a self contradiction, makes excuse that it was a joke. No indications of a joke not even an obligatory smiley face. 10+ posts later, no one is laughing. The dishonesty knows no bounds.

  102. RationalismRules says

    @buddyward #116
    I see your 6 minutes, and raise you one single sentence…!

    Ep 23.04 post #212

    We’re not simply speaking on “self-reports,” but rather a recognized phenomenon in consciousness which religions have been raving about for millennia à la the Perennial wisdom.

    Translation: We’re not simply speaking on “self-reports”, we’re speaking on millennia of self-reports.

  103. says

    @buddyward

    Got caught with a self contradiction, makes excuse that it was a joke. No indications of a joke not even an obligatory smiley face. 10+ posts later, no one is laughing. The dishonesty knows no bounds.

    It actually was a joke, but as I said, that doesn’t register so readily over text, obviously so if you’re still here insisting that it wasn’t.

    @RationalismRules

    We’re not simply speaking on “self-reports,” but rather a recognized phenomenon in consciousness which religions have been raving about for millennia à la the Perennial wisdom.

    Translation: We’re not simply speaking on “self-reports”, we’re speaking on millennia of self-reports.

    Yes, and not simply that, but also the writings of mystics which also elaborates on the nature of this experience that can be found in the scriptures of all the world’s major religions. These accounts are unmistakable on these measures used in the study for the CME or “complete” mystical experience.

  104. t90bb says

    Kafei…..I will ask again. how is that channel you promised coming??….cannot wait for the laughs!

    or was that just bs like the rest of your blather??

    fyi….what makes you think the writings of “mystics” are reliable in their content or conclusions……mystics could very well all be subjective bullshit peddlers putting spooky spins on common and uncommon human experiences. Because when most drink alcohol or take psychedelics we have common experiences means god exists. And to nail it down its consistent with perennial philosophy so there you have it!!, a sky genie has been proven to exist!!

    Now allow me to enjoy me complete mystical bowel movement…..see ya….

    One last thing….you are not special…you are just another of the billions alive and dead that have tried to justify a belief in a sky daddy……you are no worse than the rest so keep your chin up.

  105. buddyward says

    @RationalismRules #119

    Oh wow, you got me there. I cannot beat a self contradiction in a single sentence.

    What does “claiming something is a joke even though there were no indications that it wasn’t” get me? Does that kind of dishonesty see your one line self contradiction? If so, I call.

  106. says

    @t90bb

    Kafei…..I will ask again. how is that channel you promised coming??….cannot wait for the laughs!

    I just did a couple of podcasts with Max Freakout, and so that’s a start. He’s still doing some editing, but as soon as he’s done, I’ll be mirroring that podcast on my channel as well.

    or was that just bs like the rest of your blather??

    I’m not interested in bullshit unless there’s mushrooms growing out of it. I have had many requests to do a spin-off of The Atheist Experience, an internet show titled “The Theist Experience” where I’ll prioritize atheist callers and address their arguments. I’ve gotten so many requests for that, that it may be the next direction I take.

    fyi….what makes you think the writings of “mystics” are reliable in their content or conclusions……mystics could very well all be subjective bullshit peddlers putting spooky spins on common and uncommon human experiences. Because when most drink alcohol or take psychedelics we have common experiences means god exists. And to nail it down its consistent with perennial philosophy so there you have it!!, a sky genie has been proven to exist!!

    Well, I don’t think Perennial philosophy has anything to do with a “sky genie.” I’ve repeatedly said that Einstein would call this the “childish analogy of religion.” If your notion of God is akin to a “sky genie,” then it’s no wonder as to why you’re an atheist. In fact, I made it on Steve McRae’s show last night, but unfortunately none of those guys were familiar with the Perennial philosophy.

    One last thing….you are not special…you are just another of the billions alive and dead that have tried to justify a belief in a sky daddy……you are no worse than the rest so keep your chin up.

    The notion of the “sky daddy” is a complete misconception as to what God truly is, and if that’s the notion you’re entertaining as God, then it’s no surprise at all as to why you’d identify as an atheist.

  107. t90bb says

    123….YOU HAVE GOTTEN “so many” requests to do a spin off of the ATHEIST Experience?? from whom exactly?? clearly not from anyone here as I recall. You are generally laughed at here.

    btw…your closing in 123…”The notion of the “sky daddy” is a complete misconception as to what God truly is, and if that’s the notion you’re entertaining as God, then it’s no surprise at all as to why you’d identify as an atheist.”…….

    that statement in regards to whether your magic genie exists is classic begging the question. You will need to demonstrate an agreed defined God actually exists before you argue for its attributes. Apparently you are claiming to know what “God truly is”….because you tripped your ballz off and your experience was similar to others that trip ballz.

    This is why you are the definition of an “ass hat”

    please please please please…..I beg you to start your own show. When people hear you argue based on fallacies you are very good for the atheist/humanist movement!!! Please do not waste another day…..start that show!

    2 of your most obvious logical fallacies are

    1. Begging the question as you have above
    2. Argument from ignorance….as the “common” experience you tweakers have can only be explained by your magic genie of perennial philosophy

    Most people here have you on mute…but you acid boys amuse me. Such an easy punching bag. Great for stress relief!

  108. t90bb says

    Kafei…but since you explicitly dismiss my characterization of god and you know what “god” truly is……can you specifically list its “known” (since you claim knowledge) attributes. Please be specific…..I am not interested in any videos or links to your niche club….just tell us in your own words (and specifically) what the attributes of your “god” is……

    don’t be shy. Go into as much detail as necessary. Remember..in your own words.

  109. says

    @t90bb

    YOU HAVE GOTTEN “so many” requests to do a spin off of the ATHEIST Experience?? from whom exactly?? clearly not from anyone here as I recall. You are generally laughed at here.

    Generally laughed at? By who? You and Monocle Smile, maybe soundofspeed? Yeah, that’s a whole lot of people that I’m generally laughed at by. I’m talking about people who frequent the live atheist streams. I’ve mentioned the spin-off in the chat, and have got lots of feedback. There’s definitely an audience out there that would like to see that happen.

    btw…your closing in 123…”The notion of the “sky daddy” is a complete misconception as to what God truly is, and if that’s the notion you’re entertaining as God, then it’s no surprise at all as to why you’d identify as an atheist.”…….

    that statement in regards to whether your magic genie exists is classic begging the question. You will need to demonstrate an agreed defined God actually exists before you argue for its attributes. Apparently you are claiming to know what “God truly is”….because you tripped your ballz off and your experience was similar to others that trip ballz.

    The experience I’m speaking of is beyond the “tripping balls” point. These are high-doses that they’re using at Johns Hopkins. If someone casually tells you, “Dude! I took mushrooms last night and I was tripping balls!” They’re definitely not talking about what this research is emphasizing, which is the “complete” mystical experience which is well beyond the “tripping balls” point. If someone is talking about “tripping balls,” they’re talking about subthreshold doses.

    please please please please…..I beg you to start your own show. When people hear you argue based on fallacies you are very good for the atheist/humanist movement!!! Please do not waste another day…..start that show!

    You see, another request! I’ll definitely get around to it. I have to figure out the format. Maybe I can get Shelley Seagull to make an intro for me, but she’ll sing from a theist perspective where the lyrics will be, “What will it take for you to start opening your eyes, perhaps a CME might help you realize…” You know, something like that.

    2 of your most obvious logical fallacies are

    1. Begging the question as you have above

    What question?

    2. Argument from ignorance….as the “common” experience you tweakers have can only be explained by your magic genie of perennial philosophy

    This argument from ignorance could be deflected back upon you, because you seem to insist Perennial philosophy has something to do with a “magic genie.” Again, this is your naïve conception of the divine that you’re projecting upon the Perennialist view.

    Most people here have you on mute…but you acid boys amuse me. Such an easy punching bag. Great for stress relief!

    If you say so, but you don’t even seem to have grasped any of this, especially if you insist your idea of God is something akin to a “magic genie.”

  110. Monocle Smile says

    Maybe I can get Shelley Seagull to make an intro for me, but she’ll sing from a theist perspective where the lyrics will be, “What will it take for you to start opening your eyes, perhaps a CME might help you realize…” You know, something like that.

    I’m sure spelling her name incorrectly and demanding that she use lyrics not in accordance with her advocated position will surely win her over.

    If your notion of God is akin to a “sky genie,” then it’s no wonder as to why you’re an atheist

    For the hundredth and seventh time…
    If someone walks up to me and says that God is their coffee cup, is the notion of god as a coffee cup MY notion of “God?” If you can’t answer this question correctly, then you need to be banned because you are pathologically incapable of honesty.

  111. t90bb says

    Kafei……LET us know when you get that show going…..if you actually believe what you say, what could possibly be more important….

    I see you didn’t address the two fallacies I pointed out above. Pointing out that my “characterization” of perennial shitology is inconsistent with yours does not address how you have used the fallacy from ignorance/incredulity. But this is the slight of hand ass hats like you are known for.

  112. says

    @Monocle Smile

    I’m sure spelling her name incorrectly and demanding that she use lyrics not in accordance with her advocated position will surely win her over.

    *Segal. Thanks for the correction. Now, it’ll definitely better my chances to getting her to do the intro. I got the first name right. Anyway, I’m sure she doesn’t care about that as long as she has a hit intro on “The Theist Experience.” I can just see it now… ♫ What will it take for you to start opening your eyes, perhaps a CME will help you realize… I wonder… I wonder… I wonder… ♫

    If your notion of God is akin to a “sky genie,” then it’s no wonder as to why you’re an atheist

    For the hundredth and seventh time…
    If someone walks up to me and says that God is their coffee cup, is the notion of god as a coffee cup MY notion of “God?” If you can’t answer this question correctly, then you need to be banned because you are pathologically incapable of honesty.

    No, of course not. I’d argue that most atheists have no clue just like Matt Dillahunty as to what God is, that’s why they conceptualize God so ridiculously as to equate God with something akin to a “sky genie.”

  113. t90bb says

    btw…..substitute CME with near death experience and you have the same bullshit line of argumentation. In a fucked up or oxygen deprived brain state the brain exhibits similar behavior/experiences. Amazing right?? considering the brain structures are generally the same. Kind of like drinking poison…the body reacts in a similar way to that of others ingesting poison!!….that’s proof right there that the magic genie exists!

  114. t90bb says

    Matt D, MS, T90BB…..all have no idea what god is. Kafei knows though because hes a heavy drug user that has tripped ballz repeatedly……

    PLEASEEEEEE get that show off the ground….we can call it the Acid ASS HAT EXPERIENCE!

  115. Monocle Smile says

    Now, it’ll definitely better my chances to getting her to do the intro
    Anyway, I’m sure she doesn’t care about that as long as she has a hit intro on “The Theist Experience.”

    You seem totally unaware that nobody likes you. Neckbeard vibes.

    I’d argue that most atheists have no clue just like Matt Dillahunty as to what God is, that’s why they conceptualize God so ridiculously as to equate God with something akin to a “sky genie.”

    Okay, pathological dishonesty it is, then. Fuck off, asshole.

  116. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @Kafei #126:

    I’ve mentioned the spin-off in the chat, and have got lots of feedback. There’s definitely an audience out there that would like to see that happen.

     
    Comment: Axp 23.11 – Kafei #319

    There’s an analogy in eastern philosophy of attempting to drink up the ocean with a spoon rather than simply merging with it and understanding it all at once.

    Why spoon feed the world through a channel/podcast when you can simply merge and teach everyone all at once?

  117. t90bb says

    WELCOME TO THE THEIST EXPERIENCE!! with Kafei…aka Jimmy!!!

    IF you love the warm and fuzzies of intense acid trips…..AND you really find comfort in believing in GOD…..WELCOME!! THIS is your home!! Where we justify our acid use as a pathway to the imaginary!!!!

    SO sit back…take a big HIT of acid and allow us to ride the rollercoaster of logical fallacies in the hopes of confusing those that use logic and reason!

  118. says

    @t90bb

    Matt D, MS, T90BB…..all have no idea what god is. Kafei knows though because hes a heavy drug user that has tripped ballz repeatedly……

    Gone beyond the tripping balls point. I mean, if you want to use “trip,” that’s fine. Even Jordan Peterson uses “trip” as to be synonymous with the CME.

    PLEASEEEEEE get that show off the ground….we can call it the Acid ASS HAT EXPERIENCE!

    The Theist Experience will do as a title.

    btw…..substitute CME with near death experience and you have the same bullshit line of argumentation. In a fucked up or oxygen deprived brain state the brain exhibits similar behavior/experiences. Amazing right?? considering the brain structures are generally the same. Kind of like drinking poison…the body reacts in a similar way to that of others ingesting poison!!….that’s proof right there that the magic genie exists!

    Well, the CME may be synonymous the NDE, only you live to tell the tale in the case of a psychedelically-induced CME. And once again, none of this has anything to do with the naïve notion of the divine as a “magic genie.” As long as you insist that God is something akin to a “magic sky genie,” then you’ll forever miss the point.

    @Monocle Smile

    You seem totally unaware that nobody likes you. Neckbeard vibes.

    And they like you? I’m sure twarren1111 wouldn’t have anything positive to say about you. I’m not here for a popularity contest, anyway. You think I give a shit if I’m not “liked” here? Of course, not. I’m here for discussion, I couldn’t care less what someone thinks of me, personally.

    I’d argue that most atheists have no clue just like Matt Dillahunty as to what God is, that’s why they conceptualize God so ridiculously as to equate God with something akin to a “sky genie.”

    Okay, pathological dishonesty it is, then. Fuck off, asshole.

    I never said you harbor these notions about God, simply that they’re common misconceptions among most atheists. That’s not dishonest, that’s pointing out the obvious.

    @Sky Captain

    Why spoon feed the world through a channel/podcast when you can simply merge and teach everyone all at once?

    Well, because I’m not pouring LSD in the water supply or dropping aerosal DMT bombs on the populations of the world that would teach everyone all at once. Obviously, I’m addressing a crowd that’s not familiar by direct experience, because those who’ve had the CME already know. It’s those who haven’t who aren’t sure how to think about it, and that’s the person I aim to reach. To those who’ve already had it, would be preaching to the choir.

    WELCOME TO THE THEIST EXPERIENCE!! with Kafei…aka Jimmy!!!

    I’d have a co-host, too, I’m not too sure. Perhaps someone who’s already familiar with the scene like Craig Reed.

    IF you love the warm and fuzzies of intense acid trips…..AND you really find comfort in believing in GOD…..WELCOME!! THIS is your home!! Where we justify our acid use as a pathway to the imaginary!!!!

    It wouldn’t simply be about psychedelics, but the many ways these mystical experiences can be engaged.

    SO sit back…take a big HIT of acid and allow us to ride the rollercoaster of logical fallacies in the hopes of confusing those that use logic and reason!

    If you were on a sufficient dose of acid, you wouldn’t be able to watch the show. So, relax and maybe take a hit of the spliff and have a drink, and watch the show.

  119. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @Kafei #135:

    I’m not pouring LSD in the water supply […] It’s those who haven’t who aren’t sure how to think about it, and that’s the person I aim to reach.

    Just dose yourself and merge with everyone.

  120. CompulsoryAccount7746, Sky Captain says

    @Kafei:
    Once you’ve merged with reality itself, those meat bags you want to reach won’t be separate from you. They’ll be subject to your influence.

  121. says

    @Sky Captain

    There is, after all, only one consciousness.

    Sure, but not everyone realizes that, because not everyone has had the CME. In fact, most people on the planet today have not had this experience, atheists and theists alike.

  122. t90bb says

    Kafie…….”EVEN JORDAN PETERSON uses the word trip!!!”……..are we supposed to be impressed???? sounds like you were masturbating when you wrote that. Im not a bit impressed with him.

    without a lecture on perennial shitology…..I am still waiting for all you know about God since you have told me and others that our ideas and interpretations are wayyyyyy off. So you know do ya??? I have asked you to be very specific about all the attributes of god you have “knowledge of”……quit stalling acid boy. And no vids…..I want to here all about this god in your own words…..

    You are either full of shit or not. GO! lets hear it.

  123. t90bb says

    and im still waiting for you to respond to the logical fallacies I identified…..if you need help take some acid and plug into your Daddy. Maybe it will help ya out.

  124. t90bb says

    still waiting on acid boy…..in his usual form long on assertions….short on backing most of them up.

    BTW…I do think this clown likes acid and I am convinced hes had some warm and fuzzy experiences that felt so strong he thinks they must be special (devine). That’s what happens to me after I masterbate to orgasm ten times in a row. Ofcourse few people can do it….but if you actually could it would leave little doubt that the complete orgasmic experience will clearly convince you that the magic genie is real. Of course Kafei has probably never achieved that. If he could he would realize that my description of the sky genie is spot on. He does not get it because his conception of god through perennial shitology is way off. He will never see the true sky genie that way. Its no wonder he has not experienced sky genie.

  125. t90bb says

    kafei ran for the exit once backed into a corner…not teponding to any of my last 3 or 4 posts……like most bullshit peddlers he ran for the exists once backed into a corner…….im now blocking him…….

    so much for perennial shitology……hes blocked

  126. says

    @t90bb

    kafei ran for the exit once backed into a corner…not teponding to any of my last 3 or 4 posts……like most bullshit peddlers he ran for the exists once backed into a corner…

    I have’t ran anywhere. I’m just now seeing these messages.

    so much for perennial shitology……hes blocked

    That’s fine with me. You kept insisting God is a “magical sky genie,” despite the fact that I told you repeatedly that the Traditional School of Thought has absolutely nothing to do with that. And if it takes my friend Leo three hours to even attempt to explain this, and that’s merely part one, I don’t know why you assume that I’m going to distill it for you here in a few paragraphs. If you’re interested, you’ll listen to how it’s explained there, and if you’ve questions, I’m willing to oblige them. And, you know, there’s lots of material to review, and if you’re not willing to do that, if you’d rather become impatient and close-mindedly block someone on these threads just because you didn’t receive your answer quick enough, then you’re not really in a position of accusing some theist of copping out. I asked Tracie to follow up on some questions of mine, and she didn’t. Did I spaz out? Perhaps. Did she cop-out? No. She didn’t. While my comment may have been unwarranted, and I apologize if Tracie feels that way or even read the comment, I nevertheless wouldn’t view her lack of a response as some form of “running away.”

  127. t90bb says

    144….Kafei…..note he still did not address any of my questions…..he merely avaoided them by….”its too complicated”……

    still did not address the logical fallacies

    still could not put in his own words what he “knows” about gawddd….since he has told me and others that our characterizations are COMPLETED WRONG……I asked him to simply describe in his own words what HE KNOWS about his gawdd of perennial shitology….and we get a tapdance. I asked him to tell us in his own words..without aid of links or videos. And guess what?? he cant or shant! Surprised???

    Dummei goes around telling other how wrong their characterizations of gawdd are……and is at a loss to tell us in concrete terms the things he KNOWS or learned during his acid rides!!….

    Dummei is playing the typical theist script just with a twist of Acid enduced delusions……He told many of us how he KNOWS our perceptions are wrong but cannot even begin to tell us how or why he knows that…..like I said before..hes like all theists LONG on assertions….short on any backup or evidence…..

    If I were a perennial shitologist I’d be praying for dummei to start a show. What you wanna bet 6 months from now he will be running his mouth here…with no show…..why?? because he lives in a world of delusion. It makes him happy to think he has revealed knowledge or capable of creating a show that would in some way rival The Atheist Experience.

    NOTE the very next response dummei gives…..if its anything short of addressing the logical fallacies and a description of the gawd he KNOWS of from perennial shitology then I am spot on!!! Dummie will spend days and days here with some of the longest posts….but just cant seem to find the time to tell us all what he KNOWS based on his acid rides!! TYPICAL!

    I have watched this poor fool get pummeled over and over again for months by many of my friends

    So lets have it dummei……tell us in your own words all about what you KNOW about your deity of shitology. I repeat in your own words… ….

  128. says

    @t90bb

    .Kafei…..note he still did not address any of my questions…..he merely avaoided them by….”its too complicated”……

    Why would I? You said you blocked me. Yet here you are attempting to claim I “avoided” your questions. I didn’t avoid anything. Why would I leave a elaborate response describing this stuff, if you blocked me and aren’t going to see it anyway? I’ve elaborated on all this stuff in the past, I’m not going to re-type all that, especially if you claimed you blocked me. If you were really interested, you’d go back and review all those resources.

    still did not address the logical fallacies

    What logical fallacies?

    still could not put in his own words what he “knows” about gawddd….since he has told me and others that our characterizations are COMPLETED WRONG……I asked him to simply describe in his own words what HE KNOWS about his gawdd of perennial shitology….and we get a tapdance. I asked him to tell us in his own words..without aid of links or videos. And guess what?? he cant or shant! Surprised???

    Once again, you claimed you had blocked me. If you interested in how the divine is understood within the context of the Perennial philosophy, then go back and read the Matt and Phil thread, because you obviously haven’t understood if you’re going to keep insisting “Gawd is a Sky Genie.”

    Dummei goes around telling other how wrong their characterizations of gawdd are……and is at a loss to tell us in concrete terms the things he KNOWS or learned during his acid rides!!….

    Yes, you particularly, who throughout these threads has referred to God as a “magical sky genie.” That is a complete mischaracterization and what Albert Einstein rightly referred to as the “childish analogy of religion.”

    Dummei is playing the typical theist script just with a twist of Acid enduced delusions……He told many of us how he KNOWS our perceptions are wrong but cannot even begin to tell us how or why he knows that…..like I said before..hes like all theists LONG on assertions….short on any backup or evidence…..

    I’ve backed up what I’ve said with numerous citations, decades of research that has produced evidence, and plenty of talk to that address these topics.

    If I were a perennial shitologist I’d be praying for dummei to start a show. What you wanna bet 6 months from now he will be running his mouth here…with no show…..why?? because he lives in a world of delusion. It makes him happy to think he has revealed knowledge or capable of creating a show that would in some way rival The Atheist Experience.

    I can definitely get started faster than 6 months. I’m sincerely contemplating it, because as I’ve said, I’ve had many people tell me to do it. I might just get around to it. However, I have been participating in Steve McRae’s live streams, I was in The Raging Atheist’s stream last night, and I’ve also been doing pod casts with Max Freakout.

    NOTE the very next response dummei gives…..if its anything short of addressing the logical fallacies and a description of the gawd he KNOWS of from perennial shitology then I am spot on!!! Dummie will spend days and days here with some of the longest posts….but just cant seem to find the time to tell us all what he KNOWS based on his acid rides!! TYPICAL!

    Because I’ve left enough material for you to satisfy all these questions. There’s no reason for you to keep insisting that I’m talking about a “sky genie” when I’ve told you for the last 1,000+ posts throughout these threads that Perennial philosophy has absolutely nothing to do with your naïve conception of God as “sky genie.”

    I have watched this poor fool get pummeled over and over again for months by many of my friends

    Whatever narrative you need to tell yourself. Most people here have denied the science, the hosts have decided to ignore me. At least you get a response from me.

    So lets have it dummei……tell us in your own words all about what you KNOW about your deity of shitology. I repeat in your own words… ….

    I’ve done this back in the Matt and Phil thread which I’ve linked on the very top of this post. If you’re really interested go back and read that or listen to my friend Leo explain it, as his understanding of God is completely synonymous to my own. I’m not going to re-type what I’ve very elaborately addressed in the first thread of the year.

  129. geoschm says

    There was reason to fear that my conversion, on my parents deathbed, would be in the offing. This kind of thinking did not occupy my thoughts all the time or much, but it was there, and I wasn’t sure what I was going to do.

    Years before, my father and I had a real knock-down fight over atheism and religion. We were shouting back and forth, convincing noone, but making my mother cry. It wasn’t cool at all. It was stupifying to see how very intelligent and curious my dad was and could still be so blindly willing to absolve himself of reason in favor of faith – religion is a terrible, wicked thing.
    I remember him asking me what evidence I would accept for gods existence and I just replied, “I don’t know, but if there’s a god, he would know how to convince me”. That was a huge cop-out for him. He said my heart was hardened and I wasn’t willing to believe but that IF I believed, the evidence would follow. I.. couldn’t believe he would actually say something so stupid.

    Over the next few years, we mellowed out – a cool detente that gradually became a quiet respect, perhaps. My father still couldn’t resist ‘sharing with me things the lord was showing him’, whenever I called. It was annoying. He, dominating the conversation, and me drinking beer after beer until I would be quite drunk.

    I called him less frequently as time wore on.

    When he got sick last November, it was apparently pretty bad. My siblings and I flew in from our various corners of the country. He was in a bad way. Kidneys not working well, diabetes, weak heart.. they all conspired to defeat him. It hurt to see him like that. My brother and I stayed with him through the night. It was no longer a question of how I would quit myself – it wasn’t about me. I realized, finally, that I could be non-combative, non-confrontational, and even give them what they wanted because, to do otherwise, would only cause upset and unrest.

    I wouldn’t be the one to start a fight with someone and tip the scales against my father’s still possible recovery. No! I would give him ease of mind and let everything I did be about him and his ease and comfort. He’s my dad, after all.

    Once I made this decision, everything became easier for me. I know the language intimately, I know the scripture, the right verses for a given situation. I read the bible to him, I comforted him, I held his hand, I cried as he slept uneasily, laboring against the oxygen being forced into him.

    Then when everything seemed in peril, he kind of woke up. He took the oxygen off his face, fed up with it, and we talked. He called a family meeting. He was alert, he had things he wanted to say. Later, guests were allowed in. He ate a little and drank juice. Someone brought a guitar and I sang the old songs with them, but later that evening he seemed to choke on something and everyone had to leave.

    He went to sleep that night and that was the last time I saw my dad before he died the following week.

    At his funeral, we were invited to speak. What is an atheist to say at a religious funeral? I stayed up all night putting together the slide-show and matching it up with the music my mom had picked; his favorite hymns, and I thought about this question. What would I say? Again, this wasn’t about me, but I wasn’t going to get up there and pretend to be a Christian any longer, either. I had to be careful not to hurt my mothers feelings and it just wasn’t the time for me to speak in reference to religion or souls, the after-life, god, or anything else of the sort. So, I crafted a talk about my dad and me and how we related to each other over the years and how, we finally became friends toward the end. It was true, too. His last words to me, and mine to him, were “I love you.”. I’m grateful for that.

    On the drive to the airport, I was getting a ride from a close family friend, when she remarked that ‘She knows I really do beleive”. It really caught me off guard and I sputtered a bit and regret not having a better answer, and really, I’m not sure I could blame her for thinking this, when I had carried off my deception so well, but since then, I have not forgotten and it counts as a mark against any loving god or concepts of goodness in religion that one could so easily call another person a liar and be so unaware of the profound privelege they enjoy in doing so.

    I don’t think I had a choice in the matter in so far as I might want to keep the peace AND assert the right to speak my mind freely. My brother felt free to drop barbed comments about the current political situation, sprinkled often with his conspiracy theories of George Soros, the Kandahar giant, et al., and do so without risk of causing an uproar. Meanwhile, I bit my tongue and maintained my silence. Now had I spoken out, or rebutted any of the claims that were being made, how much hell there would be!

    I’m sorry you had to go through this Matt. I wish you well.

  130. lovely1always says

    Wondering if anyone has any information about activities or events surrounding the national atheist convention in Cincinnati Ohio April 19-21st. I’d love to attend with my husband but we don’t think we can do overnight (we have animals) and can’t afford the weekend. We were hoping to still have the opportunity to interact with and meet some like minded people. Especially from Ohio. Seeing as how we live in Columbus.

  131. says

    For Matt,

    Hi guys, this is my first time contacting you. I’m and argumentative Atheist and religiously Agnostic. I study physics and nanotechnology at Murdoch University in Australia.

    I just thought I would throw this little spanner in the works of the order of creation argument Matt has made so many times before. Although I don’t believe a God to be responsible for ANY “creation” of the universe, the order of light before stars is technically correct.

    In the first ten seconds after the big bang is calculated to have occurred, we had the lepton epoch, and after this came the photon epoch. During this time, photons made up a significant proportion of the universes energy. And then at recombination around 330k years after the first mover, matter began to form neutral atoms that don’t react so easily with light, and the universe became transparent enough for light to propagate unhindered through space. Stars began to form after this period.

    As I said, it is a technicality, but true nonetheless.

    I love your show guys, and I actually watch the YouTube shows when I fall asleep as a sort of audio book to help me understand logical reasoning and better argue my positions on subjects. Keep up the great work!

  132. RationalismRules says

    @149
    Yes, light before stars isn’t the strongest problem with the Genesis timeline.
    Day and night before the sun is a pretty significant one.

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