Open thread for 2/7/16 (cancelled episode)


Due to internet problems at the ACA building, there was no show today. Talk amongst yourselves.

Comments

  1. Jorge Castropola says

    hi, im jorge from Mexico , im sorry if my english is not that good ill try to express myself as good as i can…. ill start from going to the point so…i couldnt say what i am now, i have a struggle in my life cause i consider myself an educated person, i have two masters and i started another mayor at the moment… the point is, i like to educate my intelect and i enjoy the motivation for knowledge, so in my level of intelligence whatever that is i start to doubt everything of my religion catholisism, my father is an extrem religious person and i have an internal revolution in myself that i dont now where or how to fight. my wife is and was always atheist but she never made any coment or try to persuade me of anything, we have always had mutual respect, she had nothing to do with my actual thoughts, i think what im trying to say is…. im afraid of feel empty or what could happen in my “wellbeing” after i decide that thats not the truth for me, i think i already know that, but i wanna ask if there is any kind of reflexion or book or line where i can call to you and resolve this tribulation ill apreciatte it… again….sorry for my semi-english hehe… i apreciate your job and the way you manage with this fanatics , regardsss from Mexico keep the good work going…

  2. says

    Found this post late. To bad there was no show today. Sorry to hear there was some problems and hope they are worked out for next week’s show!
    Cheers!

  3. Jason Waskiewicz says

    Sad that there is no show this week. I’ve come to look forward to it. Hopefully you all work out the technical issues that plagued last week’s show and are able to come back stronger next week.

  4. philhoenig says

    All the recent technical difficulties have been unfortunate, but all your work is appreciated and I’d like to add my wishes for a triumphant return next week.

    @Jorge #1: Without wanting to fall into the trap that Russel outlined a couple of blog posts ago, bear in mind that the people who are telling you that without God you (and the entire rest of the Universe) are nothing are the very same people who are telling you that God does indeed exist. If you are ready to believe that their second claim is false, please don’t automatically assume that their first claim is true despite that – godless humans and a godless Universe have the potential to be wonderful.

  5. Trevor Lunn says

    Really enjoyed the Tech Episode about the video casting process… to all the ‘haters’ just send a quote from Job 6:21 –
    “For now ye are nothing; ye see my casting down and are afraid.”

  6. says

    Having worked in college radio, produced/co-hosted two audio podcasts over the last decade and studied audio engineering, I’m very sympathetic to everything that you’ve all had to go through to produce the show over the years, especially having an hour to set up/troubleshoot the public access studio (that brought back some radio flashbacks lol) and I just wanted to say thank you for all of the hard work. I also got a kick out of noticing that I have the same HDMI switcher and cable modem.

  7. beakster says

    You know what, screw all this. Enough of the mics, computers, speakers, and cables. Buy a $5 pre-paid phone from walmart, put it on speakerphone, and then give out the phone number on the show. Genius.

    In all seriousness, I’m really glad this video was made and it really gives a perspective on what you guys are working on over there. I cant wait until everything is set up and going smoothly.

    Also, just an idea – I believe Matt said you guys will have to use earbuds. Maybe you could use wireless earphones by bluetooth or something so there’s no wires and have it be a cleaner look. But it’s not a big deal.

  8. Concerned Citizen says

    Thanks for this video guys, I’m glad I got my weekly fix of Atheist Experience even if it wasn’t what I expected. (Matt is always good to listen to)
    I think most of your viewers know how hard you work and how dedicated you are. Unfortunately, the ‘most’ don’t tend to write in to let you know… Please take this as an email of praise to count against one of the idiot complaint emails.
    Jamie

  9. C Rogers says

    Is the show going to go back to using a green screen? I miss the backgrounds you guys used to use, especially the one that’s on the studio monitors in this video. I also like the one that’s like golden swirls. And, of course, the flames of hell background was cute.

  10. Stu says

    Stu from Scotland here.

    Great episode, Matt.

    I really enjoyed the overview of the studio and hearing the difficulties you have had. Been watching for many years so it was nice to see how you cats put on such great content.

    Sad to get no crazy, hypocritical Fundamentalist Christians this week, but your Republican Presidential Debates have helped make up for it.

    Much love and take care.

  11. Steven Shuster says

    I’m probably restating something you already know, but if you take a picture of your mixer settings whenever you make a change, it will help in restoring those settings, should something happen to mess them up.

  12. Kenny De Metter says

    The new setup looks awesome ! I have high expectations now for the coming shows 🙂
    Also, the way Matt is pointing his fingers at 38:40 🙂

  13. Russell Glasser says

    Thanks for the suggestion, Steven, but it’s not relevant to our current situation, since we are no longer in the public studio.

  14. Lori Wieser says

    Thanks so very much for the explanation video regarding how things work in your studio. I am vaguely familiar with electronics and know how complicated it can be. I absolutely LOVE your show and am happy to go through your growing pains with you! I look forward to an almost flawless Atheist Experience and will remain a loyal fan!!!!

  15. Minus says

    I don’t know if I can take a “flawless” Atheist Experience show. It just wouldn’t feel right without a few glitches and dropped lines. Thanks for all you do.

  16. nahuati says

    Thanks for sharing the technical details behind the show, and also for all the team does to make the show a success.

  17. King Lam says

    Matt is such an eloquent speaker. He’s so good at explaining things. No wonder he’s such a good advocate for atheism.

  18. John Iacoletti says

    Sometime those Non Prophets guys mess up our mixer settings though (and sometimes we mess up theirs!) 😉

  19. Per says

    I wish you the best of luck with the new studio gear. Having worked the software/system/network-engineering space for 25 years with music and audio-engineering as a hobby I would probably have made different choices of hardware and software, but your solution should be nice too. I would have chosen a stack of rack-mounted computers centred around a solution with the Asterisk PBX (w/Skype, XMPP and other voip connectivity) and Snowmix video mixer and a machine running multiple instances of the Fluendo video encoder. For audio I would have chosen one of Behringers small digital rack-mount mixers that is controlled from a laptop,tablet or smartphone. Advantages of the digital mixer in this environment is that every setting can be saved, and your compressor/limiter and noise-gates are built-in to each channelstrip. That is IMHO well worth the $2-300 extra over the analog mixer you have chosen. This mixer can also be controlled by one of the presenters on a smartphone/tablet if you ever have to do a show without somebody in the control-room.

  20. mond says

    @John Iacoletti
    lol.
    The ‘Shit Internet Apologists Say’ echo effect didn’t work on the last NP episode.
    I do believe the AETV folks were blamed for that.

  21. says

    @23 You beat me to it! I wonder how many prayers have been said over the years asking god to “take care” of the AXP show. Well, their prayers were answered this week! I’m not sure what they would say about the many weeks before this week or what they’ll say about next week or the many weeks after that.

    Also, just want to add my kudos for the folks who host the show, the many people behind the camera that make it possible and those who have provided funding.

  22. shadowblade says

    Shame there was no show.

    I rarely watch the live streaming as I live in the UK and usually watch the uploads on Monday, UK time. Since they moved to the new place, I’ve noticed that the sound quality of the callers is usually far, far better than it ever was and does not even sound like a ‘phone call. It’s usually better than the audio quality of the speakers in the studio. And louder.

    The only real “issue” I’ve had is one time Matt was saying something really interesting about Saint Paul and the audio went completely dead for a few minutes. That’s happened before but not with such an interesting monologue. I can’t imagine people being absolute arses about it, but I wish there was some way they could make a separate audio recording and upload that somewhere. I don’t care if they synch it with the video or not, as I rarely actually _watch_ the show (except Tracie’s transcendent dice jars – had to actually _see_ that). I usually listen at 144p while playing MMOs as the YouTube resolution only seems to affect sound quality, anyway.

    Anyway, keep it up. You guys and AronRa never cease to amaze me about how lucky we are that we kicked all our Tards and Morons out from about 1640 onwards. Sorry about the sick and twisted society they created for you. Maybe we should have sunk the Mayflower in the Bristol channel? Since old King George III, the Church of England, as the official state religion, is an impotent mess of powerless nonsense no one cares about, as are the Church of Rome and the numerous protestant denominations. We don’t seem to have any of the retarded lunatics you guys have and they never try to get utter garbage taught in schools as fake “science”.

    “The Loch Ness monster disproves evolution”?
    “NASA has proved a day is missing from history, so the Sun stopped in the sky so Joshua could slaughter all the men, women and children but keep the young girls as slaves for his army”?
    “Irreducible Complexity”?
    “Creation ‘Science’ Ministries”?

    Jesus Fecking Christ! What did we do to you by losing that Revolutionary War? It’s all gone so horribly, horribly wrong! This is why shows like this are really needed, or the US is going to retard the way Islam did in the 11th century, and look at them now…
    ~

  23. shadowblade says

    Oops. YouTube resolution only affects VIDEO IMAGE quality, not sound quality.

    DOH!

    Why can’t I edit my post?

  24. vince says

    @Jorge Castropola

    Have you tried looking at other Christian denominations? In my opinion Catholicism can be very demanding and rule based, grace is free and no need of priests or extra biblical works to please god. Is it god you doubt or the Catholic Church?

  25. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    Prove it. If you’re going to pimp religion on an atheist blog, be prepared to be bombarded with questions.

  26. says

    This video answered a lot of my questions. I second Steven’s suggestion of taking a picture of the surface of the mixer when you get everything dialed in. That way, in case someone’s 8 year old gets loose and goes on a knob twiddling spree, you can get back to where you were without anybody having to pull their hair out.

    I was happy to see the intention of getting the green screen back up and the long-term goal of allowing video conferencing. It would add a lot to the show if we could see the face of the crazy christian as they read their lines from carm.org into the phone.

    Keep up the good work!

  27. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    I don’t buy that. You’re advocating your own religion over Catholicism, which means you clearly think you have good reasons to do so. What are those reasons? How could someone tell if you’re right or wrong? Avoiding the question is an exercise in dishonesty at this point because now you’re bolstering your own religion over others to another person.

  28. vince says

    So now you want reasons. You asked me for proof earlier, why do you keep changing your questions after I answer the one you asked previously? Proof and reasons are not the same thing.

    I have told you many times I don’t have proof god exists. I also have told you my reasons for believing he does exist. You may not like my reasons for believing but you cannot say I have not answered your questions. Those are my reasons as I explained in an earlier thread. I am also not asking anyone to believe me, I only want them to have heard the gospel. I have already explained this. If you want to debate someone that thinks they have proof of god go find kent hovind, Si or matt slick, they are more than willing to debate you. I have not avoided the question, calling me a liar because you don’t like my reasons is childish in my opinion.

  29. Monocle Smile says

    @vince

    Proof and reasons are not the same thing

    I have not once asked for “proof.” I have asked why you believe. I may have asked for evidence at some point, but this demonstrates the sloppiness in your thinking.
    Also, any good reason for believing something exists should by definition point to something empirical. That’s how we determine whether or not something exists.

    You didn’t actually give a reason. “I believe because I have faith” is not a reason. It’s not even a coherent sentence, in my opinion. It’s barely a response. It’s just a massive category error at worst, the world’s dumbest circle at best. I guarantee this isn’t how you think about anything else in your life. You demonstrated your gullibility on the last thread (your teenage daughter hasn’t lied to you in 6 years? lol), but “I believe because I have faith” is not a reason to advocate for your own religion over another. EL was right; I can’t take you seriously when you don’t take yourself seriously.

  30. sopmepoposdowork says

    I’m here now after posting a very harsh rant in the show thread two weeks ago to say thanks for this episode. Watching a show I enjoy fall apart is no fun. Knowing how much time and money you are putting into this has boosted my support.

    I also appreciate the Tech guy that replied shortly after my initial rant in the other show thread.

    It is likely I won’t be back since I don’t come here to worship you guys nor argue with 8 year olds (Monocle Smile, anyone? LOL – is this kid the cancer of this website? I clicked a few threads and he is raging in all of them…)

    In my brief 3 visits I have been able to vent and and try to be heard. I will be back to bitch and complain if the show starts going to shit again 🙂 Otherwise I’ll see you on youtube.

    Cheers.

  31. Leeland says

    YOU GUYS DO AND ALWAYS HAVE DONE A GREAT JOB!
    …I know you guys have to be excited to get this high tech equipment up and running. It’ll be worth it. We are all looking forward to it.
    …As long as the magic”HOLD” button gets carried over.Lol.?

  32. says

    Hey there….

    Long time viewer…

    Was wondering … it is known you have tons of technical problems …

    Totally understandable …

    However could you play with the lighting some ?? ( it is not the balance of the cameras as much as you mixed light. )

    Turning off the Fluorescent light in the room … there seem to be lights you have pointed at the talent … get a raw light like that point it at the ceiling as if the ceiling is a soft box … ( two lights like this )

    I want to know if you can get better color even tho the window behind you has natural light (during dark months have a light outside pointed at the window) .. but i think the sick green the fluorescence being gone will be better than the tungsten and day light mixing .. i would rather see a mix of blues and yellows than blue yellow and green ….

    give it a try … and you could allways do a small test during your show and ask people what they like ….

    thanks

    james

  33. vince says

    @Monocle Smile

    You said in post 30:
    “Prove that “grace” exists or that there’s a god to please.”

    Then you said in post 34:
    “I have not once asked for “proof.” I have asked why you believe. I may have asked for evidence at some point, but this demonstrates the sloppiness in your thinking.”

    Maybe you should look at the sloppiness of your reading.

    You said:
    “You didn’t actually give a reason. “I believe because I have faith” is not a reason. It’s not even a coherent sentence, in my opinion. It’s barely a response. It’s just a massive category error at worst, the world’s dumbest circle at best.”

    You don’t get to say what my reasons are or aren’t. You can say that you disagree with my reasons but you cannot say they are not my reasons. I told you before I posted my reasons that my thinking was circular and illogical. I never tried to convince you or anyone that god exists by my reasons. Those are my reasons, agree with them or not. Your error is that you think I am trying to convince you god exists when I am not and have said that many times.

    You said:
    “You demonstrated your gullibility on the last thread (your teenage daughter hasn’t lied to you in 6 years? lol),”

    I never said that. I said that over the last six years or so she has demonstrated that she doesn’t lie very much at all. What she says to me I believe 100%, she has earned that. I don’t start out trying to verify what she says to me is true before I believe her. If I find out later she was lying then I will deal with that appropriately. How can you have any meaningful relationships in your life without trust?

  34. kimsland says

    Hmm, I made my reply here > http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2016/02/08/phones-are-now-better-than-the-access-studio/#comment-621768

    It might have been in the wrong place?

    Anyway, If I were in the US I’d probably rewire the whole setup for you, and mount everything in a rack.
    The ‘Operator’ (that’s you guys) would never see what that video showed.
    Having another look at the vid, I confirm a TECH definitely setup the VOIP part (labelled concealed wires, very neat, and looks professional).

    A neat and tidy wired computer/Audio/Video hardware not only looks professional its SAFE.
    If I had say 2 days there, (or one, but the first day would be removing everything – definitely) Then you would understand the difference it makes. You really need a couple of experienced techs to lend a hand ON SITE. And THEN do the video again.
    It was funny, but only in a technical way, so the way it looks now, any tech would be hard pressed not to laugh.

    Now Mr. techo can you please have a look over what we have here and let us know of any minor adjustments – do note my man, it is presently fully working 😉
    Mr. Techo: Say what? Um, .. best to start again, we’d like to keep people alive 😀

    ok, But seriously funny 🙂 I’m settling now.
    Look I can guide you remotely if you want, I may have done a few already (hundreds that is).

    Oh I nearly forgot to say. I once setup a FULL Server and all the cameras and audio in a CHURCH! I had NO idea that churches did that, but when I set it all up I thought of course they all MUST do this (well the big ones). THIS church paid the company I worked for $150,000 Which was cheap! But the point is they are HIGH tech in their ‘back office’! Eye opening for me.

    Let me know if you want any help, I will freely provide it.

  35. ironchops says

    @23 & 24
    I prayed that the technical problems be fixed so TAE can be successful. The repairs have been/are being completed as we speak with God’s help through the people at the ACA and TAE. God, I am thankful to all those folks at the ACA and TAE who are working so very at fixing these frustrating problems and kudos for their successes. I am also thankful for the hosts and all of the support they have to get the show out there for us all to see and enjoy. It is wonderful to see how you (God) can work through so many to achieve your goals here on earth. Amen.

  36. robertwilson says

    @vince

    The point is you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too. It’s rude. Either engage in the discussions or don’t post here and certainly don’t hijack threads to get closer to proselytizing or even just to lament that MS doesn’t like the reasons you give.

  37. vince says

    @robertwilson,

    It is not that MS doesn’t like my reasons. It is that MS says they are not my reasons.

    I have not hijacked threads. I have responded to questions about why I have faith and I responded to a person that sounds like he wanted help. I have yet to see anyone else address his concerns.

    I have engaged in the discussions with honesty. I gave my reasons for my faith and I have said many times I don’t have proof god exists. I don’t care MS doesn’t like my reasons I told him he would not like them. He cannot say they are not my reasons for believing. Have you read the full discussions?

  38. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    Post #4 addressed Jorge, but don’t let that stop your whinefest.
    Also, bolstering one flavor of bullshit over another is not “helping.” And you clearly aren’t understanding what I’m saying about reasons.

  39. vince says

    @Monocle Smile,

    Then help me understand.

    You asked for my reasons,
    I gave you my reasons,
    You disagreed with my reasons (which is fine),
    You also said those are not my reasons. (which you cannot possible know, this is what I have issue with)

    You also confused reasons and proof. I have reasons for believing, I have no proof god exists.

  40. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    I have not confused reasons and proof. You haven’t understood a single thing I’ve said.
    Imagine I asked you about the color of the sky. You answer “five.” That’s how I feel about your “reasons.” I’m not openly accusing you of being dishonest, though I think you’re not telling the whole story. I’m expressing frustration because you didn’t answer the question. It’s a category error. It’s a non sequitur.

  41. Kao says

    I would like to see some shows that illustrate the fine differences in opinions between the hosts. Maybe an in-house bonus mini series.

    Has there been any discussion about having debates inside the Free Thought Library and having live call in for Q&A?

  42. vince says

    @Monocle Smile,

    What kind of answer do you want me to give you?

    Do you want proof of my faith? Proof god exists? what do you want. I tell you time and time again that my reasons are not logical but then you want me to give a logical answer. I have none. At one time you said you wanted proof, then you said you never said that, then you said my reasons are not my reasons.

    How you feel about my reasons has nothing to do with my reasons. They are my reasons not yours. You have disagreed with my reasons, so fine, you have every right to disagree. You have no right to tell me that they are not my reasons for believing or are not my answer to your question. Five is an answer to your question about the sky color, maybe not one you think is right but it is an answer.

  43. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    To vince
    Remember: There’s no duty that says you have to engage. You’re free to end the conversation whenever you want for whatever reasons you want. No one (reasonable) will hold it against you.

    Of course, I think that you do have a duty to explain yourself on any pertinent details for any points that you make in the future, but I believe you and I personally already came to agreement on those points.

    PS: I do probably agree with MS on all of the technical details of the discussion at hand.

  44. kimsland says

    @ironchops

    Actually best guess (even just a guess) has been proven to be more reliable than praying. Didn’t you know?

  45. vince says

    @EnlightenmentLiberal

    In my opinion, MS wants me to give an answer he can refute. I did not give him that. I admit my answer is not reasonable but it is the real reasons for my faith.

    How have I not answered his questions?

  46. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    To vince

    Ok. Let me go read this in detail. I’ve been avoiding it

    First, I think you’re being treated unreasonably harshly in some aspects – with one qualification. I see your original post as probably just offering advice in a friendly manner. That’s my guess. If MS is right that it’s just part of a facade to pimp your religion in this place, then I’ll agree with MS’s confrontational style. I guess you haven’t yet worn out my principle of charity with regard to you.

    You offered some advice. That’s reasonable. MS asked for you to explain why you think that’s good advice. That’s also reasonable. MS potentially asked some unrelated questions, which is also reasonable. Assuming your behavior is not a facade, then I see no reason why I think you would be obliged to answer. IMHO.

    I also didn’t follow too closely the other thread. I skimmed a bit, and it seems that you’ve trusting your daughter (or something), and trusting her description of a particular event that happened to her, in order to support your religious beliefs. That seems like a honest description of one’s beliefs. It’s also quite silly and irrational, as has already been explained, and I see no reason to repeat those reasons here.

    However, I am dubious as to whether that one story is the totality of your reasons for believing in god. It’s possible that you believe it is. It’s also possible that you’re holding back. However, you have expressed that you don’t want to talk about it, and for the reasons given above, I don’t yet feel the need to pry into those reasons if you don’t want to talk about it. (Of course, if you do post something in support of the truth of a religion, then I will come down on you like a bag of metaphorical bricks.)

    Dunno. MS already wrote me off (sort of) in another recent thread for being a tone troll, and I have no need to further antagonize him, so I think I’ll leave it at this for the moment being.

    Does that answer your questions to your satisfaction? Did I miss anything?

  47. adamah says

    MS said (in post 35):

    I have not once asked for “proof.”

    Yet in post 28, MS said:

    Prove it.

    Good Gawd, MS, with that post, you now get to pick your poison:

    1) You either have the short-term memory of a gnat, and can’t remember what you wrote only 7 posts earlier (in all likelihood, you don’t actually stop to think about what you post), AND/OR,

    2) you’re sufficiently dense as to not know that “demanding someone prove their point” IS the same thing as “demanding proof”.

    (Note how the words ‘prove’ and ‘proof’ are similar: there’s a good reason for that….)

    You top it off with this cherry:

    I guarantee this isn’t how you think about anything else in your life.

    Yet weren’t you just acknowledging in the thread on transgenderism that the only one who can speak to what’s going on in their head is the individual?

    But now you not only claim to know what others think, you even guarantee that you know!

    Explain: how exactly do you know that Vince isn’t equally irrational in other areas of his life? What’s your proof to back your claim?

    That claim is incredibly incoherent and inconsistent, MS. So, wanna try again?

    We don’t see that level of irrationality outside of the likes of Alex C. (that chap in the UK who embarrassed atheists worldwide by engaging in a college-hosted “debate”, but only proceeded to unleash a series of ad hominems against his opponent when under pressure, such that the female mod had to warn him to cease and desist from the personal attacks).

    MS, I don’t suppose you actually are Alex? You seem to share the same mentally-diseased thought processes, and it’s scary to think there’s two of you on the loose, as fellow escapees from the loonie bin….

    If that not simple enough for you to comprehend, then try this one on for size:

    Lay off Vince (or at least try to be civil), because from where I’m seated, he’s making mince-meat of you and your foggy-brained “arguments”.

    If you can’t at least be civil, then take your trolling act elsewhere….

  48. Monocle Smile says

    @EL
    I haven’t “written you off.” I didn’t think you had examined the preachy vegan’s posts adequately to determine the root of my ire. I was constantly saddled with positions I didn’t hold, and that’s utterly irrelevant to whether or not I was hostile too quickly for your liking.
    @adam
    Never mind. I will not contribute to your masturbatory garbage. I’ve told you to fuck yourself too many times now.
    @vince

    Five is an answer to your question about the sky color, maybe not one you think is right but it is an answer

    A response is not an answer. Read this article
    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong
    Until you understand how “five” is not an answer to “what color is the sky?” then it is going to be extremely difficult to communicate.

  49. Monocle Smile says

    @Kao
    The Non-Prophets podcast is actually a pretty good forum for determining the differences between the hosts.

  50. vince says

    @ EL,

    I appreciate the post, thanks. I guess I did not factor in that there have probably been believers that have come here with the pretense of debate but all they want is to proselytize. I have seen that before and I think it is a dishonest tactic. I listen to the Atheist Experience because I do learn from them. It helps me figure out what are good and bad arguments and how atheists think and the differences between them. My theology is as I understand the bible that we are given faith by god when we hear the gospel in some way. I know everyone here has most likely heard the gospel and rejected it. I cannot convince anyone of gods existence, I can only tell them the gospel message.

    As far as the story about my daughter, it had nothing to do with me belief in god. I was trying to give an example of us learning truth apart from science. MS seemed to be saying we can only know truth through empiricism, but I disagree that is the only way we gain truth. Trusting others without proof based on our relationship with them is another way we gain truth. It also is the only way to have a real relationship.

    My reason for believing that I told MS is that I have faith in the first place. I even outlined how I thought god gave me my faith, so I am willing to talk about why I have faith. But I also told MS that it is not logical or rational but he seems to be insisting I give him a rational reason. If that is the case I don’t have one. It is just that MS doesn’t think that is my reason and doesn’t consider that an answer to his question but I have no other answer to give.

  51. vince says

    @MS

    In my opinion where you are going wrong is that you are comparing my answer to scientific inquiry, which is the wrong frame of reference. When you compare my answer to what the bible teaches it is a consistent answer as I have laid out before. You want me to give you a logical answer to a question that only has an illogical answer.

  52. vince says

    @adamah

    As for the asking for proof thing, MS has just ignored it. I doubt MS will ever address that.

  53. adamah says

    Vince said:

    As for the asking for proof thing, MS has just ignored it. I doubt MS will ever address that.

    Yeah, I just about fell out of my chair after reading MS’ bald-faced flip-flop, and her seeming inability to utter 3 words: “I was wrong”.

    I wrote my post before seeing you called MS on the carpet on it, but I posted anyway after seeing you had you noted the obvious illogic: it’s pretty shameful, but MS is rather shameless, so it’s par for the course.

    The fact is, MS is the last person who should be taking you to task for your religious beliefs, since in the transgender thread MS was asking everyone to accept an individual’s claim of being born in the body of the other sex based only on their feelings, which obviously are prone to error. Feelings often are unverifiable and for which no supportive evidence exists.

    As such, asking for acceptance of an individual’s diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” based on only their feelings is not any different than your feeling that God exists: in 2016, both are unverifiable claims, and both rely on logical fallacies to support them (e.g. the argument from ignorance: “We don’t know; therefore, God; it’s corollary for trans- arguments is, “The evidence is scant; therefore, “gender dysphoria”).

    Vince, I’d caution you to use care and reexamine your use of the word, “truth”, focusing on the basic definition, and clarifying what you mean when you use it.

    Unfortunately the English language doesn’t differentiate between ‘truths’ which arise from quite-arbitrary conventions (e.g. language, units of measurement, etc), and those that don’t. You seemed to be playing fast and loose in your use of the word.

    Without getting into an masturbatory and unproductive discussion of epistemology, the advantage of the scientific method is that all ‘truths’ are theoretically subject to revision as counter-evidence arises. And when it comes to some claims (eg proof of existence of God), that day may never come.

    Point being, many so-called “truths” are unknowable, and the real question then becomes, why even bother fretting over a question for which no evidence exists (other than a fallacious ‘appeal to tradition’, namely that humans have been worshipping Gods for millennia, and what’s good enough for great grandpappy is good enough for me, too)?

  54. Toni kay Houston says

    Thank you Matt I watched the whole video. I’m impressed with your know how. I think you look great in this episode of Tech. and You look great it was not blury at all. I want to call the show but I’m afraid to because I don’t like my voice and my thoughts run faster then my mouth but they can bite me as well. lol I’m so honored to be your friend. Would love to be a caller.
    I have a tip and I also have something on my mind. I didn’t hear but do you read and fix grammars of e~mails online?
    I’m sending you a pic of me at 2015 down town Christmas in Colorado Springs. There was religious Xmas songs pumped into that area all around me. I held my sign proudly. I got yelled at things thrown at me middle fingers, I wonder we’re these religious folk LOL ??? I did get thumbs up tho and a few that wanted to talk that’s when I wished you were here. I know what I want to say but can not do it elegantly like you. I have and do encourage other to stand on corners like I do. Would you encourage Atheists to do the same?
    Maybe you know me on FB but really think I have nothing worth of value to say. Keep up the good work what you and others there are doing is so important. That’s why I stand on street corners and give it out for FREE lol I mean the message. Lol. Sorry for the grammar. Bite me lol.

  55. ironchops says

    To kimsland or anyone else
    Yea…I know. In my entire Christian life I have never seen a prayer answered in a way to be able to convince anyone it was anything other than luck or some else’s skill.
    I have been researching a little on the science of religion and prayer. It seems to me to be a game of psychology and manipulation. Some say there are positive aspects to both but mostly, in my observation, there really is little value in it.

  56. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    Trusting others without proof based on our relationship with them is another way we gain truth.

    Just like what Corwyn said above (or in another thread), your understanding of evidence, empiricism, and science, is quite bad. Trusting someone on the basis that they have not lied to you in the past – that’s empiricism. That’s science. That’s making a prediction about the future bsaed on the past.

    It also is the only way to have a real relationship.

    I don’t know exactly what you’re saying.

    IMHO, for example when dating, initially you should not trust the other person any more than a normal stranger. Then, as time goes on, as you accumulate knowledge about the other person, aka experience with the other person, aka evidence, then you can start to trust more.

    Would I ever trust the other person completely, absolutely, 100%, beyond any and all doubt? Nope. And if that’s your position, then in the politest way that I can, I must call you a naive fool.

    PS:

    But I also told MS that it is not logical or rational but he seems to be insisting I give him a rational reason.

    Almost by definition, reasons are rational. “Reasons” is short for “reasoning”, which is very close to “rational”. What you mean to say is that your reasons are very bad, and your reasoning is very bad. I honestly don’t care about this part of conversation, because you are not going to be honest with me, because you’re not even being honest with yourself. You choose to live in a make-believe world concerning gods, relationships. Apparently you choose to live your whole life in one big world of willful fantasy.

  57. Luke says

    Bummer to hear about Internet issues. Sounds like a cable got chewed up or water-logged somewhere along the line (I had that issue every time it rained until I could get the cable provider to fix it). Surprised a video mixer board isn’t being used, my guess is cost? Or to maybe to post-edit multiple angles? Looking forward to seeing/hearing the new setup! 🙂

  58. vince says

    @EL,

    Would I ever trust the other person completely, absolutely, 100%, beyond any and all doubt? Nope. And if that’s your position, then in the politest way that I can, I must call you a naive fool.

    I don’t know what kind of relationships you have in your life. I am married. I think it is foolish to not trust your wife 100%. I am not saying that she has never disappointed me or I have never disappointed her. However, if everything she does or says I must confirm some other way the marriage will suffer. When she says something I believe her without being skeptical about it. If something turns out to not be true then we will deal with it. I don’t think y0ou can have an intimate relationship without 100% trust, whether it me a spouse, child or friend.

    Almost by definition, reasons are rational. “Reasons” is short for “reasoning”, which is very close to “rational”. What you mean to say is that your reasons are very bad, and your reasoning is very bad. I honestly don’t care about this part of conversation, because you are not going to be honest with me, because you’re not even being honest with yourself. You choose to live in a make-believe world concerning gods, relationships. Apparently you choose to live your whole life in one big world of willful fantasy.

    Reasons is not short for reasoning.

    Reasoning – the use of reason; especially : the drawing of inferences or conclusions through the use of reason. MW Dictionary

    Reason (plural reasons) – a statement offered in explanation or justification – MW Dictionary

    Do my reasons for my faith fit the definition of a reason?

    You can say I live in a fantasy world when it comes to my faith, I get that. Saying that I believe my wife 100% does not mean I don’t think she can lie to me. I don’t live in a fantasy world, I think it is better for our relationship to 100% trust each other instead of always being skeptical of them. That doesn’t foster intimacy. So in your relationships does the other person constantly have to prove to you what they say?

  59. vince says

    @ironchops,

    I would not do it. It kind of seems to me that it can be taken as they are not serving everyone.

  60. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    I think it is better for our relationship to 100% trust each other instead of always being skeptical of them.

    Again, your understanding is naive and shallow. You give only two options, both of which are caricatures. I am expressing the position that it would be foolish to allow yourself to be convinced by your wife that you can fly by flappings and that you should test this by jumping off a tall building. I am also expressing that it would be foolish to demand a receit from your wife to justify her claim that she had Starbucks coffee previously that day.

    Skeptical” does not mean “contrarian“.

    Also related: I recall several papers that suggest a connection between ambiguity intolerance and religiosity. I don’t know if the papers are reliable, but it seems plausible enough that I suggest you might want to look into it. Part of your problems seems to be an ambiguity intolerance – loosely: a personality trait where one feels uncomfortable when faced with problems where there is no clear right answer.

    Regarding “reasons” and “reasoning”. It is a semantic argument, but it’s an important one. When you say that you hold your beliefs because of faith, that is a form of reasoning. You are giving your reason, your justification, – “faith”. Giving a justification, a reason – that is reasoning. I would argue that it’s a very bad instance of reasoning, and that the particular reason is very bad, but it is wrong to say that it is not reasoning. Obviously you are reasoning and giving reasons when you explain that you believe in (a) god because of faith.

  61. KsDevil says

    A very interesting tech episode. Although I must admit, I was kind of expecting to see a Grass Valley video switch controller, not a computer based system hacked for 3 cameras.
    But I can appreciate the complexity needed to handle so many different sources and outputs.
    I’m also a bit dismayed that the studio is not able to get the full Google Fiber treatment since it is an amazing service.

  62. vince says

    @EL,

    Again, your understanding is naive and shallow. You give only two options, both of which are caricatures. I am expressing the position that it would be foolish to allow yourself to be convinced by your wife that you can fly by flappings and that you should test this by jumping off a tall building. I am also expressing that it would be foolish to demand a receit from your wife to justify her claim that she had Starbucks coffee previously that day.

    Have you read all the conversations? This all started with me and MS, I was discussing that there is truth that we cannot know except by trust. Like, my wife telling me her favorite color is green for example. It has nothing to do with the nonsense you are talking about. Of course if my wife told me my son flew to France and back today with his arms flapping I would not believe her.

    Also related: I recall several papers that suggest a connection between ambiguity intolerance and religiosity. I don’t know if the papers are reliable, but it seems plausible enough that I suggest you might want to look into it. Part of your problems seems to be an ambiguity intolerance – loosely: a personality trait where one feels uncomfortable when faced with problems where there is no clear right answer.

    Thanks for the info that you don’t know are reliable. I have to solve open ended problems all day, no real answer only best answers at best. I am ok with the ambiguity in the bible. I don’t need proof of my faith. I have been married for 18 years and have three kids, I understand ambiguity and I am not uncomfortable with it.

    Regarding “reasons” and “reasoning”. It is a semantic argument, but it’s an important one. When you say that you hold your beliefs because of faith, that is a form of reasoning. You are giving your reason, your justification, – “faith”. Giving a justification, a reason – that is reasoning. I would argue that it’s a very bad instance of reasoning, and that the particular reason is very bad, but it is wrong to say that it is not reasoning. Obviously you are reasoning and giving reasons when you explain that you believe in (a) god because of faith.

    You have not been reading the threads have you? This is exactly what my argument has been. I have agreed that my reasons may be bad for my faith, but MS was saying that those are not my reasons. That was the entire point of this discussion. MS can disagree with my reasons and call them bad reasons but MS cannot tell me those are not my reasons.

  63. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    Fine. Say I concede that your horrific reason is a reason.
    Why did you make a comment towards Jorge bolstering beliefs that you admittedly hold for bad reasons?

  64. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    You have not been reading the threads have you?

    Basically, yeah.

    I must offer one slight correction / clarification. You can say “faith”. Of course, I want to know what that even means. I also want to know if you have any justifications for having faith. Apparently no. But again, I don’t really care about having this conversation if you don’t. I’m posting this to not take an undeserved shit on MS. I’m still with MS: “faith” is often a non-answer instead of an answer. When someone asks “why?”, and you answer “faith”, it might qualify as a reason, but it’s an especially poor reason, and it’s probably a cop-out.

    For example, if I say that I believe that I can fly by flapping my arms, and you say “why?”, and I answer “faith”, then you should recognize the absurdity of that answer. Your answer of “faith” in your context is just as absurd, and potentially just as dishonest.

  65. Jorge Castropola says

    Woww … I have read most of the comments … Let me tell you guys… In my humble opinion… I just cant trust a god who writes down an eternal torment for the nonbelievers and then speak about forgivness … Love in any levels is love… My own mother in her human and trivial way of loving… Would never care about my mistakes or my ideas.. She would love me no matter what… Thats a true definition of inconditional love… Not this kind of love with clauses and exceptions.. I cant love a God with all my mind and heart when he is not willing to do that too, speacially when i see all the horrifying genocides rapes and discrimination he asks us to avoid .. But when he does it we have to neal down and accept we are to stupid to understand .. Is the mistery of god and we cant ask or complain about it

  66. says

    I was a sound tech for several years and completely understand how it can be tricky to get something like this set up the way you need. You guys are doing a fantastic job and I’ve always appreciated the work all of you do. Your show makes a huge impact on the world (and on myself personally). This was actually a cool episode. I’m amazed at how much had to be done and the costs required to get the show where it is. So, again, thank you ACA!

  67. vince says

    @EL

    I must offer one slight correction / clarification. You can say “faith”. Of course, I want to know what that even means. I also want to know if you have any justifications for having faith.

    I would say faith is believing in god without proof. The reason I have faith is that god has given me that faith. How that happens I don’t know. What kind of answer are you looking for? I would say there are evidence for gods existence but that evidence does not equate to proof in my opinion.

    When someone asks “why?”, and you answer “faith”, it might qualify as a reason, but it’s an especially poor reason, and it’s probably a cop-out.

    I never claimed it was a good reason, only that it is a reason. Do you want me to provide proof that I have faith? Do you want me to provide proof that god gives faith and how he does it? or something else?

  68. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    Okay, now I’m frustrated.
    I’m sure at some point in EL’s bigger, elaborate posts here or in another thread, he explained the fallacy of appealing to absolute certainty. So stop throwing around the word “proof,” I don’t think you know what it means. “Proof” is what we use in math to demonstrate something absolutely, but that isn’t a thing in the real world. When I ask for you to prove something, I’m asking for sufficient evidence to provide a compelling reason to accept claim X, and this should be obvious to anyone with even a cursory understanding of epistemology.

    I would say there are evidence for gods existence but that evidence does not equate to proof in my opinion

    So after all this, you DO think there’s evidence for the existence of a god? And what, you were just sitting on this the whole time despite being asked repeatedly?

    I never claimed it was a good reason, only that it is a reason. Do you want me to provide proof that I have faith? Do you want me to provide proof that god gives faith and how he does it?

    I’ll take evidence of the latter, but just give me whatever you have. Now you’re claiming to have evidence of a god’s existence. What is it?

  69. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    To vince
    Until you tell me what you mean by the word “faith”, I don’t understand what you’re saying.

  70. vince says

    @MS

    When I ask for you to prove something, I’m asking for sufficient evidence to provide a compelling reason to accept claim X, and this should be obvious to anyone with even a cursory understanding of epistemology.

    Yes, I thought this was what we are talking about. I think there is evidence for god but not any evidence that in my opinion cannot be refuted quite easily. Also, even if the evidence was strong for the existence of a god that is not what I base my faith on. My faith has been given to me by god and I simply have it. I think giving evidence for god is a waste of time. I will give you evidence , you will refute it and I will agree with you. So what’s the point? If you want to go through that exercise then ok, I will try to list some reasons later tonight.

  71. vince says

    @EL,

    Until you tell me what you mean by the word “faith”, I don’t understand what you’re saying

    I said in post 76, “I would say faith is believing in god without proof.” And as MS pointed out or compelling evidence to believe in god.

  72. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    Yes, I want to go through this exercise. I really don’t like how you continue to portray me as asking for evidence in bad faith; as if I’ll just blanketly dismiss anything you present out of hand. If I think you are wrong, then I’ll explain why, and maybe the exercise will have some value.

  73. vince says

    @MS

    Yes, I want to go through this exercise. I really don’t like how you continue to portray me as asking for evidence in bad faith; as if I’ll just blanketly dismiss anything you present out of hand. If I think you are wrong, then I’ll explain why, and maybe the exercise will have some value.

    Come on, do you really think I have evidence for gods existence that will convince you? I will site some reasons but I want to be clear I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of gods existence through these. They don’t even convince me. The Bible says people won’t believe on evidence but on faith given by god. In no particular order.

    1. I find the accounts of Jesus life and resurrection believable. They were close enough to the actual events to be refuted. Why would people suffer for something they know was a lie?

    2. If there is only the universe we live in and not multiple universes, then I find it unlikely that all the physics that has to be in place to support our life just happened. I know it is possible but find it very unlikely just as winning the lottery.

    3. I find the Daniel 70 weeks prophesy compelling. It predicts Christ’s coming.

    4. I fund it just as plausible that the beginning of the universe started with a creator as a non creator.

    5. I have always known deep down that a god existed, Romans chapter 1 says all know god exists. I know this offends atheists to tell them they know god but I am repeating what the Bible says.

    6. I have also known first hand of healings or treatments so exceeded expectation that doctors were surprised and wanted more tests to be sure of the healings.

    None of these give good enough evidence to believe god exists. All have their problems that I am aware of. I want to reiterate that these reasons I gave are not the reason I believe or that anyone should believe, I believe because I have faith.

  74. Monocle Smile says

    @vince

    Come on, do you really think I have evidence for gods existence that will convince you?

    This is irrelevant, and it continues to be insulting. I ask theists for their reasons in good faith.

    They don’t even convince me.

    And yet most of them have a mention of being compelling or believable. So are you lying here or are you lying in the list? Well, I already know you’re lying in the list because 5 is a blatant lie. 6 is likely a blatant lie. The rest are so wrong that I’m going to have to take five and contemplate whether that pile of shit is even worth addressing.
    Now before you get all butthurt with “I told you so” concerning this response…EL and I are both trying to have reasonable, honest conversations with you and you will not reciprocate.

  75. StonedRanger says

    @Vince.
    So you believe for bad reasons. You know you believe for bad reasons, but you believe anyway. In the end, you say you know there is no evidence for god, and you gave us half a dozen reasons that you don’t even believe in. How is this helpful? At this point I don’t believe you. I don’t believe for one minute that you were an atheist, and if you were, it was for bad reasons that you didn’t understand. You really find the genesis account just as plausible as the big bang theory and evolution? You are pulling everyones leg here. You do realize that most of the people who frequent this blog do not believe that the bible is a reliable source of information, right? Your saying god gave you faith because that’s what the bible says is just your dishonest way of saying nothing at all. How does god do that? If you say you don’t know, but the bible says it so you believe it then what is the point of further conversation? You couldn’t get a more circular argument.

  76. says

    @ VINCE

    “I would say faith is believing in god without proof. The reason I have faith is that god has given me that faith. How that happens I don’t know. What kind of answer are you looking for? I would say there are evidence for gods existence but that evidence does not equate to proof in my opinion.”

    When you start off with acknowledging that your belief in god is without proof – that is, without sufficient reason to do so – how can you then claim that god “has given” you that faith. That’s a circular argument. There’s not any good proof for any god that doesn’t fall apart under mild scrutiny. What evidence have you found that is compelling enough to justify a belief in a god?

    “I never claimed it was a good reason, only that it is a reason. Do you want me to provide proof that I have faith? Do you want me to provide proof that god gives faith and how he does it? or something else?”

    Again, you admit that your reasoning is not “good”. Then you follow it up by claiming that god gives you the faith to believe in him. It doesn’t really add up to any more than wishful thinking. You’re basically claiming that you’re going to believe whatever fits your narrative, in spite of the fact that there is no real reason to do so.

  77. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    And this is why I didn’t want to engage with Vince. Vince obviously has no good reason – no reason at all – to believe that there is a god. Vince explained this in no uncertain terms. There is nothing logical or rational that can be said to someone so foolish.

    Quoting Jefferson:

    Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; […]

    And I don’t feel like ridiculing this person in this place at this time. And to everyone else: don’t let me stop you from doing as you deem appropriate regarding Vince.

  78. kimsland says

    @vince

    Hi Vince may as well throw my 2cents in as well 🙂

    I KNOW why you have faith. Of course we all know. You have faith in Jesus Christ because you feel it deep inside AND you believe in some or most or ALL of the bibles. THIS is why you have faith, plus as you stated, what created the universe! And a few other unknowns (faith healing etc)

    Vince, I’m fully aware that when each and every part you stated are handled one at a time, even YOU agree that it’s not sufficient ‘evidence’, heck you could be crazy for all you know, or even us! Your FAITH is based on how you feel, and how Jesus Christ gives you guidance and strength in life. Am I right so far?

    It is NOT evidence that will automatically make you an atheist! It’s not lack of evidence that will make you question something you give your life to. Heck, the fact that you have faith in anything (I understand just these god parts only) ‘proves’ it’s not about scientific evidence. As YOU know perfectly well, I am sure your own religious ministers have stated to you, God exists outside the laws of physics, he cannot be ‘tested’ or proven by science, you obviously can only have faith. 😉

    Vince, I’m what you call a militant atheist (shock horror) generally I am fully against religion, and the religious god(s). Even a deity of any sort seems ludicrous to me! And here I am describing (hopefully well?) your beliefs! I really do enjoy learning about faith’s point of view, and science facts; generally I ‘feel’ if we are able to help children to guide them to learn and question absolutely everything, I honestly feel that most children will also be atheists, truly. This has become even more stronger in my mind by religion being taken out as mandatory religious instruction in public schools.

    I would like to have one go at seeing if I can also ‘guide’ you, as we now guide children in school about evolution and cosmology and EVEN the origins of the universe and life itself. For starters Vince, be fully aware that your god is an atheist as well, your god does not feel a creator created him (although not clear in the bible absolutely, at least this is how Christians that praise him feel). So your god is one of the boys 🙂 He’s part of our club (no club), atheists feel EXACTLY the same way as your god. So that’s good 🙂

    When your god allowed our brains to evolve over billions of years (even if you believe in Genesis, lets just say a LONG time). We started to think. When we started to think about where we came from, how did we get here and some asked WHY are we here, we developed this thing (you could call it a tool) called science. No one has ‘faith’ in science! We only believe in the results, so far science has got everything right. Lightning not caused by supernaturals; Witches aren’t actually real; NO evil sweet children growing up to be evil adults! The science list is HUGE. It covers everything from maths physics psychology medicine biology health and so much more. Humans thrive on it, because heck you can even read this message instantly and I’m on the other side of the world! Basically science works.

    There are things that science is yet to discover 🙁 Things like the origin of life (this stated as only decades away, possibly sooner) AND the origin of the whole universe! You could say at the moment we (presently) just don’t know. OH, we could guess and say a god did it, maybe he did? But honestly we don’t know yet. For all we know it could be 2 gods who had a fight! Or maybe the death of god’s creator? Or maybe it ‘could’ be natural? Just Don’t Know.
    Well guess what THAT’s how ‘I’ feel too. I don’t know 🙁 But instead of saying a god did it and look at this book that man wrote, I say, I’ll hold on that idea until I really do know. I certainly wouldn’t want to say I have faith in a god!! Because that’s the same as saying I DO know, and I just don’t, do you?

    I’m an atheist and proud to be one 🙂

  79. vince says

    @ms

    Yes, I want to go through this exercise. I really don’t like how you continue to portray me as asking for evidence in bad faith; as if I’ll just blanketly dismiss anything you present out of hand. If I think you are wrong, then I’ll explain why, and maybe the exercise will have some value.

    I ask theists for their reasons in good faith

    So I gave you my evidence that you asked me to give even though I believe they are not sufficient and……

    So are you lying here or are you lying in the list? Well, I already know you’re lying in the list because 5 is a blatant lie. 6 is likely a blatant lie. The rest are so wrong that I’m going to have to take five and contemplate whether that pile of shit is even worth addressing.

    And you call me dishonest. You said that if you think I am wrong then you would explain why and not dismiss it out of hand, instead you insult and ridicule with no explanation. You are like the teenaged brat that gains a trust in someone else so they will tell you things that you can the turn around and ridicule them. This entire time I have posted here I have never once tried to convince anyone god exists, I have only posted on some comments the hosts said regarding statistics and words used. You asked and asked me to tell you why I believed and what evidence I have. So, call me butthurt and more names but it seems all you wanted was to get your fix of bringing down others for your glorification. You do this all over the internet. If your kind of atheism brings you to the point that ridiculing others is a tenet of that atheism, then count me out.

  80. vince says

    @StonedRanger

    So you believe for bad reasons. You know you believe for bad reasons, but you believe anyway. In the end, you say you know there is no evidence for god, and you gave us half a dozen reasons that you don’t even believe in. How is this helpful?

    Ask MS. He asked for it.

    At this point I don’t believe you. I don’t believe for one minute that you were an atheist, and if you were, it was for bad reasons that you didn’t understand.

    I don’t think I portrayed myself as an atheist like most here are. I was more of the opinion that it didn’t matter either way and did not care much about pursuing the question of god.

    You really find the genesis account just as plausible as the big bang theory and evolution?

    That is not what I said at all.

    You are pulling everyones leg here. You do realize that most of the people who frequent this blog do not believe that the bible is a reliable source of information, right? Your saying god gave you faith because that’s what the bible says is just your dishonest way of saying nothing at all. How does god do that? If you say you don’t know, but the bible says it so you believe it then what is the point of further conversation? You couldn’t get a more circular argument.

    I agree with what you said here. The only reason I posted those evidences is because MS asked. I never tried to convince anyone here that god exists.

  81. vince says

    @EL,

    And this is why I didn’t want to engage with Vince. Vince obviously has no good reason – no reason at all – to believe that there is a god. Vince explained this in no uncertain terms. There is nothing logical or rational that can be said to someone so foolish.

    I never asked you to say anything to me. You and MS are the ones that wanted to engage me in this conversation even tough I told you I had no evidence and my reasoning was circular.

    Quoting Jefferson:

    “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; […]

    And I don’t feel like ridiculing this person in this place at this time. And to everyone else: don’t let me stop you from doing as you deem appropriate regarding Vince.

    Calling others to ridicule me because you won’t do it is not noble but does follow the tenet of atheism which is ridicule people that won’t change their minds after talking you.

  82. vince says

    @kimsland,

    Hi Vince may as well throw my 2cents in as well
    I KNOW why you have faith. Of course we all know. You have faith in Jesus Christ because you feel it deep inside AND you believe in some or most or ALL of the bibles. THIS is why you have faith, plus as you stated, what created the universe! And a few other unknowns (faith healing etc).

    I have stated I don’t have faith because of the evidences I posted. I don’t believe in faith healing either other than if god desires he can heal someone.

    Vince, I’m fully aware that when each and every part you stated are handled one at a time, even YOU agree that it’s not sufficient ‘evidence’, heck you could be crazy for all you know, or even us! Your FAITH is based on how you feel, and how Jesus Christ gives you guidance and strength in life. Am I right so far?

    No. My feelings have nothing to do with it. Acting on your feelings are what lead people away from god, not to god.

    It is NOT evidence that will automatically make you an atheist! It’s not lack of evidence that will make you question something you give your life to. Heck, the fact that you have faith in anything (I understand just these god parts only) ‘proves’ it’s not about scientific evidence. As YOU know perfectly well, I am sure your own religious ministers have stated to you, God exists outside the laws of physics, he cannot be ‘tested’ or proven by science, you obviously can only have faith

    No, my ministers talk about the gospel. That god cannot be tested comes from listening to atheists.

    Vince, I’m what you call a militant atheist (shock horror) generally I am fully against religion, and the religious god(s). Even a deity of any sort seems ludicrous to me! And here I am describing (hopefully well?) your beliefs!

    I don’t think you understand my beliefs very well.

    I really do enjoy learning about faith’s point of view, and science facts; generally I ‘feel’ if we are able to help children to guide them to learn and question absolutely everything, I honestly feel that most children will also be atheists, truly. This has become even more stronger in my mind by religion being taken out as mandatory religious instruction in public schools.

    Where do you live? In the US where I live there is no mandatory religious instruction. I am actually opposed to teaching any religion in schools except for maybe a religions of the world class.

    I would like to have one go at seeing if I can also ‘guide’ you, as we now guide children in school about evolution and cosmology and EVEN the origins of the universe and life itself. For starters Vince, be fully aware that your god is an atheist as well, your god does not feel a creator created him (although not clear in the bible absolutely, at least this is how Christians that praise him feel). So your god is one of the boys He’s part of our club (no club), atheists feel EXACTLY the same way as your god. So that’s good.

    I doubt atheists feel EXACTLY like god. In fact most atheists I run into will say things like, even if it was proven to me god exists I still would not follow such a monster. Because they don’t feel the same way god does. I don’t think you understand the god of the bible very well. The bible describes god as preeminent, always being, supreme over all things, the beginning and the end etc. He knows that nothing created him. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god/creator etc. God does not have a lack of belief; he knows for sure nothing created him.

    When your god allowed our brains to evolve over billions of years (even if you believe in Genesis, lets just say a LONG time). We started to think. When we started to think about where we came from, how did we get here and some asked WHY are we here, we developed this thing (you could call it a tool) called science. No one has ‘faith’ in science! We only believe in the results, so far science has got everything right. Lightning not caused by supernaturals; Witches aren’t actually real; NO evil sweet children growing up to be evil adults! The science list is HUGE. It covers everything from maths physics psychology medicine biology health and so much more. Humans thrive on it, because heck you can even read this message instantly and I’m on the other side of the world! Basically science works.

    Yes, I use the results of science and math every day to solve open ended problems. I am not adverse to science. I want my kids to learn the latest scientific theories. I am pro science. You have assumed much here.

    There are things that science is yet to discover Things like the origin of life (this stated as only decades away, possibly sooner) AND the origin of the whole universe! You could say at the moment we (presently) just don’t know. OH, we could guess and say a god did it, maybe he did? But honestly we don’t know yet. For all we know it could be 2 gods who had a fight! Or maybe the death of god’s creator? Or maybe it ‘could’ be natural? Just Don’t Know. Well guess what THAT’s how ‘I’ feel too. I don’t know But instead of saying a god did it and look at this book that man wrote, I say, I’ll hold on that idea until I really do know. I certainly wouldn’t want to say I have faith in a god!! Because that’s the same as saying I DO know, and I just don’t, do you?

    I don’t know either. Faith isn’t 100% certainty, it is a confidence it is true given by god without evidence.

  83. StonedRanger says

    Vince, atheism has no tenets. It has no dogma. It is simply a rejection of an assertion that god/s exist. You said: “4. I fund it just as plausible that the beginning of the universe started with a creator as a non creator.” What I said was a paraphrase of what you said. You cant say things started with a creator without acknowledging the genesis account, as this is what your beliefs are based on. This is what we mean when we say you are either being disingenuous or youre just lying.
    Answering my question with MS asked for it is not an answer to my question. If you want to get into a semantical argument about what constitutes an answer then you are again showing your dishonesty. That does not answer my question. It is merely a reply which offers nothing other than an excuse for not being honest with your reply.
    Frankly I don’t care how you perceive yourself as an atheist as compared to other atheists. Atheists come in every stripe and color. The are republicans, democrats, libertarians. They are black, white, and every other race. They are pro choice, anti pro choice and everything in between. So again, you refuse to give a substantive answer in favor of just a reply which says nothing.
    And finally, you continually use words and terms like believable, plausible, compelling, yet you say you know you have no or only bad evidence. So which is it? Cant you make up your mind what you actually do or don’t believe? I don’t think you actually believe in a god. You are a poe, and a really really bad one at that. How can you say on one hand that you believe, but on the other hand you have nothing to back up what you believe but faith. And that somehow god gives you this faith. You don’t know how, or why, you just believe it because an old book said so. You do understand that if you had evidence to show what you believe has some truth to it that you wouldn’t need faith, right? This whole thing here is just an exercise in futility. You were an atheist for bad reasons and now youre a christian for even worse reasons. You aren’t pro science and saying it doesn’t make it so. Everything else you have presented here shows you aren’t pro science. If you were, you would understand the importance of having evidence for what you believe. You have said over and over that you have nothing to prove, if that’s true, then why are you here? Oh yeah, I know, MS made you do it. What a buffoon. People making fun of you has nothing to do with being a tenet of atheism, it has to do with you being such a dork that we cant help but make fun of you. Hell, you invite it with every post you make and you know it. So stop whining about it. Try giving some actual answers instead of just yelling ‘Ive got faith so neener neener neener’. (yes I know you didn’t actually say the words neener neener neener, but that is the gist of your entire argument.

  84. Conversion Tube says

    Vince, when you say you have bad reasons and you know they are bad reasons, it means you don’t really believe it, it means you know it’s bullshit but are playing the game anyway.

  85. Conversion Tube says

    “”Come on, do you really think I have evidence for gods existence that will convince you? “””

    Yes otherwise, why call it evidence?

    Imagine Einstein uttering that phrase.

    Come on, do you really think I have evidence for (relativity) that will convince you

  86. vince says

    @StonedRanger,

    The tenets comment was tongue in cheek. But many atheists think it is ok to ridicule others.

    You asked me why I am here. It was never to persuade people of my faith or that other should have faith. I learn from the AE show and I enjoy listening to it. I will go back to doing just that.

    we cant help but make fun of you. Hell, you invite it with every post you make…

    I know, you don’t seem to have a minimum amount of respect for people just because they are people. To you and others here, people have to live up to your standards or they are asking for it so to speak. I bet it is hard to be your friend, kid, spouse etc. and live up to your standards.

  87. StonedRanger says

    Vince, now I know you are a poe. I don’t make fun of you as a person, I make fun of you because of the way you present yourself and the way you are thinking. I don’t know you as a person. You might be the nicest guy I ever met and be willing to give someone the shirt off your back. And Id commend you for that if I knew it to be a fact. But you present yourself as someone who clearly doesn’t believe what you say you do. You don’t engage honestly. And for those things I will mock you or anyone else who acts like that. I don’t care if they are religious or atheist or whatever. As to your last paragraph, I don’t expect anyone to live up to my standards. I do expect them to live up to theirs. Ive been married 35 years and have two kids who I have never expected to live up to any expectation of mine except for them to be the best they can be in all aspects of their lives. And whether they have succeeded or failed at anything, my love and respect for them has never changed and never will change. Its funny how you accuse me of doing what you just did to me. And whats even funnier is that I bet you don’t see it either. Ah well, thank you for the entertainment value.

  88. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    I was perfectly content with not pressing further until you made the comment to Jorge talking about what God does or doesn’t want. I don’t think you realize why.
    I also find it strange that you expect your extremely poor reasoning to be left alone on a blog all about skepticism.

  89. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    Calling others to ridicule me because you won’t do it is not noble but does follow the tenet of atheism which is ridicule people that won’t change their minds after talking you.

    IMO, I said no such thing. I said I won’t be ridiculing. I also said that I won’t tell others what to do, and that they should use their own judgment.

    Further, there is no “tenants of atheism”. You probably mean “tenants of humanism and skepticism”.

    Further, I don’t know if ridicule would be effective on you or not. Maybe it is. Maybe it would help change your mind. I am relatively firmly convinced that most believers are passive sheeple that just go along with the majority.

    To paraphrase Sam Harris (who is quite wrong-headed on other topics), imagine that I believed that by saying a certain prayer in ancient Greek, it would transform the breakfast cereal and milk in front of me into the blood and body of Julius Caesar. If I honestly believed that, then I would be detached from reality, severely delusional, insane. However, when someone believes effectively the same thing – believes that when a certain person says a certain Latin prayer, a cracker and some wine turns into the blood and body of Jesus – they’re not insane; they’re just a Catholic. Both conclusions are just as preposterious on all of the available evidence except the “evidence” of public opinion. It takes an insane person to believe transubstantiation in isolation. However, people who are quite reasonable and well-adjusted can believe transubstantiation if everyone else does too.

    Without the support structure, I am firmly convinced that most religious people would not be religious. It’s like a virus, or as Dawkins (who is also very wrong-headed nowadays) would say: a meme, a cultural meme, and a particularly virulent one.

    Some mild, but constant, social pressure against being religious in most social spaces is exactly what we need, and some of that mild social pressure could very well be ridicule.

    Your positions are ridiculous. Your explicit and open statement that you believe for no good reason is not something to be commended. It is something to be shamed and ridiculed.

  90. vince says

    @MS

    This blog is about Atheism not skepticism or can’t you be an atheist without being a skeptic? I don’t expect my reasoning to be left alone, but you said you would engage my evidence but in the end you wouldn’t. That is ok. In the end I never came here to discuss my faith or anyone’s faith. I should have left it at that.

  91. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    This blog is about Atheism not skepticism

    Lol

    can’t you be an atheist without being a skeptic?

    One can be an atheist for all sorts of reasons (and non-reasons). Sometimes the reasons are quite bad. AFAICT, most atheists are atheists because they are skeptics, and because they examined the evidence concerning purports gods, and they found that the evidence was insufficient to warrant a belief that there is a god or gods.

  92. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    I’m still contemplating engaging, and I probably will. Just like I said in my response to your list. Please read better.

  93. vince says

    @MS

    Don’t bother, I know the arguments against them. I assume I will get your basic jackassery as you have already shown and as displayed all over the internet anyway.

  94. StonedRanger says

    Im going to have to agree with EL. (much as it pains me to admit) My atheism is informed by my skepticism and by studying things and using my reason and logic to make most of the decisions in my life. I guess you don’t have to be a skeptic to be an atheist, but then the whole doing things for bad/wrong reasons comes into play.

  95. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    Are you some kind of stalker? What do you mean, “all over the internet?” You’ve dropped that line at least twice. I have no clue what you mean. Also, stop whining. You got butthurt earlier about me not addressing your list even though I’m probably going to follow through, and now you’re throwing a tantrum. Why do you have such a problem with me? I am far from the only one to ridicule your ridiculous positions.

  96. corwyn says

    @82 vince:

    6. I have also known first hand of healings or treatments so exceeded expectation that doctors were surprised and wanted more tests to be sure of the healings.

    This is, of course, evidence *against* the existence of a (benevolent¹) god. In order for Doctors to be surprised that some patient has gotten better, it needs to extremely rare. No one says ‘hey, I didn’t die from that cold, there must be a god.’ No, the disease must be deadly. the benevolent god must *cause* lots of people to die, in order for a few living to be a miracle. This evidence is therefore more likely if no god exists than if a benevolent one does.

    Thank you kindly.

    ¹ – I leave it as an exercise whether the god described in the bible should be considered benevolent.

  97. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    much as it pains me to admit

    I hope that we can improve our “working relationship”. I’ve been trying to be a better poster nowadays. In this venue or another of your naming, could you at least tell me why you dislike me, and what I might be able to do to improve? Some things I am willing to change. Some I am not.

  98. kimsland says

    @vince

    “Faith isn’t 100% certainty, it is a confidence it is true given by god without evidence.”

    Oh, you are speaking of submission and obedience to the Holy Spirit, for your god freely giving everlasting life to you?!
    Vince if you were god who gave others life and then stated those others must be obedient to you for this FREE divine action, would that be a good thing you did? Are god’s laws making you confident and true to the holy bible?

    What if I said you could break any of god’s laws and not even have a jesus to save you from this.
    What if I said you CAN commit adultery and lay down with another man and allow your women to be the head of the house, and all the other 613 commandments to change anyway you see fit, if you so desire by your choice and STILL offer you eternal bliss and life? Then you could just be you. More importantly it would be better, you wouldn’t even need to follow the bible. Your faith in your holy spirit is not as high as you can confidently go in knowing the truth. It is a lack in confidence and truth.

    In what way does the teachings of jesus christ make you more confident in your faith?
    I would be more confident not to be told by authority, but to learn for myself what is true. Schools these days are structured to guide the student to learn, and NOT tell them what is true without demonstrating the reasons so as to become not confident.
    To be given the faith in a god makes you less confident in knowing the truth. If it were the other way around then even a child could have just as much confidence as you would have at the end of your life, that’s a bit disheartening, a religious child may have more confidence than you!

    Faith is not confidence in knowing, it is just being told what to do. You cannot choose to have faith in not knowing, if you are not allowed to learn for yourself. Faith is without choice by definition, ruled by an authority that never gives you confidence in yourself. This must be why many faith believers abuse children, they are angry that children can have more gullible faith than adults. I submit to you that your faith is a lack in confidence of what is true.

    Your truth is different to mine, even though there is only one true way.
    Learning to have belief in yourself and being able to reason the truth (you have learned) to yourself and others, is the pathway to being confident, how could a god tell a child he is already above this with any confidence whatsoever?

    Your faith is worse than a child’s first day in church, and you know it.

  99. vince says

    @kimsland,

    Oh, you are speaking of submission and obedience to the Holy Spirit, for your god freely giving everlasting life to you?! Vince if you were god who gave others life and then stated those others must be obedient to you for this FREE divine action, would that be a good thing you did? Are god’s laws making you confident and true to the holy bible?

    No, what you are describing here is the exact opposite of the gospel of grace. Salvation is not earned through obedience to god, it is freely given by god. (Eph 2:8-9). Jesus was hard on the Pharisees for teaching people obedience to rules was how you pleased god. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Christian faith. Well, not all denominations. Some do teach salvation by works but read Eph 2:8-9 and it leaves out any ambiguity.

    …and you know it.

    How would you feel if I told you that I know you actually do believe in god but you suppress that truth willfully?

  100. vince says

    @corwyn,

    Benevolent is your word not mine. I never said that evidence was for a benevolent god, just that maybe god does heal people. I don’t know. Looking at the definition I don’t think benevolent describes god very well.

  101. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    Even within your theology, that’s bullshit. This “free gift” only counts if you believe. That’s the obedience part.

  102. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    To vince
    For example, if there is a Satan or any other sort of fallen angel, they are in a position where they are convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that there is a Jesus, and salvation comes through belief in Jesus, etc. Is Satan saved? Is mere belief enough? Seemingly no. Seemingly Satan is not saved. And that’s seemingly because mere belief is not enough. You also need some sort of obedience. The common phrasing is “accept Jesus Christ as your savoir / lord and master”.

  103. vince says

    @MS

    Nope, god gives us our faith and ability to believe, Romans 12:3. We don’t have to muster up enough faith so god will save us. That would mean we could boast in our faith which Eph 2:8-9 says god doesn’t want us to do.

  104. kimsland says

    @vince

    “How would you feel if I told you that I know you actually do believe in god but you suppress that truth willfully?”
    I would feel you are finally waking up to the truth, and starting to question yourself and other 🙂

    The phrase, “obedience that comes from faith” clarifies that a true faith leads to obedience.
    Faith requires you to be obedient. I don’t like that pass this off as you don’t believe that! Are you really Christian? I’m starting to question this.

  105. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    How would you feel if I told you that I know you actually do believe in god but you suppress that truth willfully?

    Well, that would be you calling me a bald-faced liar. And that would be the end of the conversation. Being called a bald-faced liar not conducive to conversation.

    I would classify you in the same group of Sye Ten Brugencate and the other fundamentally dishonest Christian apologetics. And finally, I might suggest the Sye vs Matt Dillahunty debate.

  106. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    Err, I somehow missed the important word: dishonest Christian presuppositional apologetics.

  107. kimsland says

    @EnlightenmentLiberal

    “Well, that would be you calling me a bald-faced liar.”

    Well you are quoting out of context. Vince was replying to ME not you.
    I am trying to form a picture in his mind that FAITH in anyone’s ideas is not a pathway to the truth.
    HE is calling me out and suggesting I might be coming out of the closet like a priest who is gay!

    Not everything is evidenced based, he even stated that. So now you must not speak of evidence or don’t speak to him at all.

  108. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    And oh shit – I needed to read more context. Sorry vince. It seems that what you wrote was intended as a snarky counter-reply and not an actual point. My bad.

  109. kimsland says

    Lol

    Vice states ALL the evidence does not prove his god is false. Something along those lines.
    So the next step is to find where his commitment lies. Obviously not logical practical evidence.
    Faith (not blind faith as that defeats itself) is his Kryptonite. He even stated he really didn’t want to speak specifically of his faith. I wonder why? Oh yeah because his faith can be fully undone 😉

    None of these damn Christians accept evidence, they have had YEARS and years of don’t listen or learn about evidence.
    The only way to knock this corruption in his mind is to take him back to childhood and start again.
    Did he have faith at 12 years old? Really? Is it the same as today? Hooray lets start there 😉

    The church is SO cancerous to the mind, he actually thinks ‘proof’ (some twisted way of thinking of proof) is the bible and versus and shit like that. YOU are speaking to someone NOT sound in their mind. Kitten gloves required to help him out.
    The ‘evidence’ is over whelming AGAINST Christianity, having ‘faith’ that tinkerbell did it has MORE evidence than Christianity! This man has issues, and you must address those issues or he remains lost. And no one wins.

    THIS is the reason (and literally the entire reason) that ‘faith’ believing by children should be removed or kept at far distance, before it manifests into vince.
    According to vince’s arguments the flying spaghetti monster could be true too, or the holy qur’an, or any religion he suddenly switches to. The answer is not evidence, it is telling him he is WRONG in good faith 🙂 This is possible, but Google cannot help him 🙂

    There is NO reason to believe in a god > NONE
    There is no reason to think a man made book was written by a god > NONE

    You don’t think vince realizes this? He has felt the presence of jesus deep inside > That’s right, he’s sick. And that is the only way to help him understand, seeing that problem and through recognizing that atheism is correct. > Lack of belief (evidence faith whatever) in a god.
    The moment he states, of course there’s a possibility god may not be true, is the moment he becomes atheist.
    And guess what OF course there’s MORE than enough PROOF to state that HIS god may not be true, through his awkward faith

  110. StonedRanger says

    @EL 106
    I never said I disliked you, I just said it pains me to admit that we agree. You have a few stances that I disagree with but its nothing Im going to argue about. Our working relationship is just fine. I would imagine that overall we agree on more things than we disagree on. When I first came to these blogs, I found it hard to read your posts in their entirety. Now I at least try to make the effort to read your longer ones. Don’t always make it but that’s the way it goes. The whole hate to admit it thing was more of a personal jibe at myself. Don’t take it personally.

  111. vince says

    @ EL, 111

    For example, if there is a Satan or any other sort of fallen angel, they are in a position where they are convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that there is a Jesus, and salvation comes through belief in Jesus, etc. Is Satan saved? Is mere belief enough? Seemingly no. Seemingly Satan is not saved. And that’s seemingly because mere belief is not enough. You also need some sort of obedience. The common phrasing is “accept Jesus Christ as your savoir / lord and master”.

    Angels cannot be redeemed by Jesus sacrifice. There is no allowance for them if they sin. Jesus died for people not angels. 1Tim 5:21 says god chose angels and these were kept from the rebellion by god to do his works as described throughout the bible. 2 Thes 2:13 and Eph 1:4-5 says god chose people to be redeemed through faith god gives in the sacrifice of Jesus.

  112. vince says

    @kimsland 113,

    The phrase, “obedience that comes from faith” clarifies that a true faith leads to obedience.
    Faith requires you to be obedient. I don’t like that pass this off as you don’t believe that! Are you really Christian? I’m starting to question this.

    You say “obedience comes through faith” – I agree
    You say “true faith leads to obedience” – I agree
    You say “Faith requires you to be obedient” – I disagree. God wants us to be obedient and saving faith is the only way we can do that. Whether we are obedient or not does not affect our salvation in any way. We are saved first so we can be obedient. Jesus command us to to be perfect, that is the standard, one which we will never achieve hence his sacrifice. If obedience is required for salvation then no one can be saved. Faith leads to obedience, obedience does not lead to faith.

  113. vince says

    @kimsland 116

    Well you are quoting out of context. Vince was replying to ME not you.
    I am trying to form a picture in his mind that FAITH in anyone’s ideas is not a pathway to the truth.
    HE is calling me out and suggesting I might be coming out of the closet like a priest who is gay!,

    Actually no, you told me a couple of times that I know something or believe something when I don’t. I was trying to get you to see that your assumptions were wrong. I was not telling you that you actually have faith.

  114. corwyn says

    @109:

    If god isn’t benevolent, then healings aren’t evidence for its existence AT ALL. If god is evil, then any healings are evidence AGAINST its existence. If god is randomly neutral then we gain exactly zero increased confidence in its existence from ANYTHING we observe.

    Thank you kindly.

    p.s. I am confused about why you wouldn’t try to reject your brainwashing by an evil god, which you seem to be consciously aware of.

  115. vince says

    @corwyn,

    Are all healings good? If someone is not healed does that actually mean god is evil? In the end I don’t know if healings like I described are from god or not. I don’t place my faith in healings but I am open to the possibility that god does heal people.

    I don’t believe god is evil. If I gave that impression then that is not what I meant. Sometimes I can be unclear.

  116. vince says

    @kimsland 118,

    Vice states ALL the evidence does not prove his god is false. Something along those lines.

    No, that is not what I said at all. I said, I don’t believe that the evidence I gave is sufficient to conclude god exists.

    He even stated he really didn’t want to speak specifically of his faith. I wonder why? Oh yeah because his faith can be fully undone

    Again, not what I said. I said I don’t have sufficient evidence that most people would consider compelling for my faith. I have faith because God has given me my faith. I didn’t want to talk about my evidences because they are not enough to conclude god exist and what do you know, all here agree with me.

    THIS is the reason (and literally the entire reason) that ‘faith’ believing by children should be removed or kept at far distance, before it manifests into vince

    I never believed as a child. I was 26 when I started to believe and 32 when I became a Christian.

    There is NO reason to believe in a god > NONE
    There is no reason to think a man made book was written by a god > NONE

    I agree.

    He has felt the presence of jesus deep inside

    I have never felt Jesus deep inside. I don’t even know what you mean by this. You make a lot of assumptions about me that are untrue.

    The moment he states, of course there’s a possibility god may not be true, is the moment he becomes atheist.

    All Christians have doubts. The bible even allows for this. If that fits the definition of an atheist then I am an atheist who believes in god.

  117. corwyn says

    @125:

    You claimed that healings increased you belief in a god.
    You claimed that healings were not evidence of a benevolent god.

    So how EXACTLY are healings evidence of any kind of god?
    Are cancers evidence of a god? If not, why not?`

  118. vince says

    @corwyn

    I did not claim healings increased my belief in god. Only that it could be evidence for the existence of god. My faith is not based on the evidences I gave. In the end, we don’t know why a disease is there one day and gone the next. It could have a natural explanation.

    I don’t know benevolent describes god when looking at the description. I think whatever he does he does for his glory first. He does say he does good for those who love him. However, we need to define good as god does and not us.

    I have no idea if cancer is evidence of god. Maybe if someone does not have cancer and instantly they do? I don’t know.

  119. corwyn says

    @128:

    My mistake. You are arguing about things you don’t think, about a belief that you won’t discuss that you don’t know how you got, that requires that belief to exist before it can be believed.

    Totally a waste of my time.

  120. vince says

    @corwyn

    I have been discussing my belief in this thread.
    I know how I received my faith, it came from god just as the bible indicates it does.

    But Ok, have a nice night.

  121. Monocle Smile says

    @vince
    I’m starting to come to stonedranger’s conclusion that you’re a Poe, because you keep using words you don’t understand and it’s starting to look deliberately obtuse.

  122. Argus Von Blargus says

    Since this is an open thread, I’d like to talk about Matt Dillahunty. In the previous comments, many listeners/viewers complimented Matt on his excellent articulation of the technical glitch situation of which I wholeheartedly agree.

    In fact, listening/watching Matt has raised this question (at the risk of embarrassing Matt or giving him “the big (shiny) head: Is it just me or is Matt an EXCELLENT candidate to become one of the New New Atheists? Hitchens is dead, Dennett seems to have kind of retired, and Harris/Dawkins are (at least in the popular media) kind of seen as making a series of Twitter-cringe statements (I will only mention the Shermer sexism allegation dust-up in passing). It seems like we are approaching the cusp of a leadership change in the national/international atheist movement (and let’s not forget Randi is not getting any younger — I say with 100% affection).

    Having said that, I think we should therefore be on the lookout (a scouting period if you will) for the eventual replacements of these atheist luminaries. So, with that in my mind, I am wondering how we could (assuming he is willing) help to bolster Matt’s “image” as a possible candidate. I can’t think of a more logical successor to the Four (Five?) Horsemen.

    I’m also curious: would Matt be interested in taking some kind of leadership position with a national atheist/free-thought org: say as president of American Atheists?

    I guess my ultimate hope is to turn on CNN/Fox/MSNBC some day and see Matt making the same well-explained, cogent arguments on national TV that he is making on his videos (and just SLAMMING Bill O’Reilly).

    Finally, this is not to say I don’t think the ENTIRE LINEUP of AXP is made up of very talented, articulate individuals. However, I sense in Matt a kind of “spark” that I think could propel him to the “next level.” It reminds me of watching a local TV news anchor and getting the sense: “Hey, that person could definitely ‘go national.'”

  123. kimsland says

    @Argus Von Blargus

    Just a thumbs up and I second that opinion 🙂
    You didn’t mention Richard Dawkins has had a recent stroke, which is yet another reason for Matt to take up this good idea 🙂

  124. Argus Von Blargus says

    Kimsland..

    Thanks back at ya.

    Of course, as a bald man who shaves his head, I also must support my brethren as we slowly take over the world (led by Jeff Bezos).

    “Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color…”