Open thread for episode #914: Matt & Tracie: “Religion & Families”


Brief intro about how some religious views negatively impact, or even destroy family structures and bonds when members fail to conform, based on viewer mail regarding the atheist experience in the family environment.

Then on to viewer calls including a brief after show.

Comments

  1. paultherope says

    I’ve yet to see the show (glad you are back) but shouldn’t the thread be for episode #914?

  2. Daniel Engblom says

    Anyway to see the newest episode? UStream gives me blank, with the “latest” being the show from 4 weeks ago.

  3. Luis Lopez says

    What is religion? Define your religion?( If any) … -if religions destroy families- then why are there so many broken homes. Out of millions of broken homes how many are because of religion? I can only assume the answer…. Not give an exact number. How many are because a member fails to conform?The problem again is broken homes. Eminem slim shady , what was his religion? Was it his music? Fame? Fortune?, wait define religion again? It goes deeper hold on reader. Is religion man made? Ask your self… Sure I would say it is…. Personally(let me jump in here) I don’t like religion… Religion is man using his good deeds and what ever rituals or stuff they do to (get closer to god) or what ever. By means of their religious patterns.. To achive what ever it is their aming for. Eyy kinda like Eminem. Then go deeper into their stuff. Catholics, Muslims, Hindu, buddah, researchers, atheist,(hold up hold up, stand tall warrior, hold on to your belief right now, after all you’re just trying to convince that”YOU ARE RIGHT OVER THE REST” right ? right MR. Catholics, Muslims, buddist, atheist(atheist gotta be in the picture) its like a battle field, to see who is correct and reign supreme over the rest… “of belief Patterns” to prove who has TRUTH over all…. Don’t back down you coward!! Muslim, catholic Darwin buddah atheist teacher. Kid in front class saying persuation speach, all of you!…. Now what is religion again? So now ask your self reader. Don’t be a coward to ask your self.(this is the most literal question that even a ten year old can ask him self) so who is correct over all??? Now think think think think think think…. Hmmm.. Are you right atheist? How about you Muslim? And you Christian? And you catholic? How about you buddist? Mr evolutionist. Hop in the battle field… Which one of you literal human beings with flesh bones DNA blood(you get it WE ARE ALL HUMAN) so who is right? Now. We are all in the battle field right now . Hold on to your belief you coward. Don’t back down or get offended either you wimp.. Personally I’m asking you this reader( lets throw in the fact that this is 2015 AD. After death.. ok. How about 6000 BC.. Before Christ? Why Christ? Funny thing is that our own human timeline points to exactly -Jesus Christ’s before and after death. And existence on earth…..( don’t back down you coward… Hold on to what you believe… Unless you wanna tap out you coward Muslim catholic atheist Christian, buddist evolutionist ect ) so ask your self now(did Jesus actually exist) if your own literal timeline points to it you dummy…. Personally I say he did exist how about you atheist? Muslim? Christian? Hmm catholic ? Orthodox you say so also?… Hmm evolutionist? Take a shot at it. Don’t back down from the battle field now to see who is correct over all…. So evolutionist atheists buddist idk people who don’t believe in the god of the bible. Your religion is to convince the rest that you are correct over the rest.. Right..(ok ok ok. Chill chill, fine its not your religion what ever)…… Eh you’re still trying to convince that you’re correct over the rest. You’re not impressive really. Neither are you catholic..Hindu, Muslim, catholic, with your idols and statues that you claim to have power. Pshhh lame.. (let me step into this battle field with Christ by my side) pshhh don’t back down you coward now that you know I’m Christian and I have Christ by my side. (oh you mad bro?) freedom of speech. Your religion Muslim what’s your pattern? How about your atheist? Catholic? Evolutionist? Bring out that patter of research bring it on step into the battlefield…. Excuse my sudden boldness.. (what’s my religion? Or pattern in this litteral world of flesh bone and millions of patterns of beliefs) naawww its not that we all see what ever it is that our religion had us convinced of… Or patterns… My religion is help the home less, give to the needy to the poor help those in need, be comfort to those in need. To Follow Jesus… Yea that’s called a deciple) to follow the teacher to follow and do what Jesus would do. Help those in need that’s what Jesus would do.. Oh you would also do the same Mr atheist catholic Muslim buddist evolutionist. That’s back to the -good deeds- part of religion. Naa I do it because I’m following the teacher. Yea dude the Jesus of your litteral timeline) yea I follow that exact Jesus. Who actually rose from the dead. Yea he’s alive right then bro(where do you think I get this writing talent from? Yea i follow god(yea Jesus is god) are you still in this battle field? Don’t back down keep reading coward after all hes alive 2015 after what?, 6000 before what occurred.. BC.. Christ. death death death ok your timeline proves death actually existed.( if you can’t accept the name of your timeline… I call that bad math bro) ha. You know what else is bad math. If you can’t accept the fact that the bible was literally written. Ok so the bible was written in the course of a couple thousands of years. By people of all kinds and many prophets of course. The reason i say prophets is because if we start from the very beginning of the most known book in the world.(stay in the battlefield ) the very first writers would get revelation from god who yes is the Jesus that your own timeline claims, who would tell them what would happen in the future because after all he is god. But of course Jesus gets this from the father. (holy trinity) father son and holy spirit.( that’s a little deeper talk) hey try Jesus dude if you’re not standing on this battlefield anymore… Lets keep going… so one writter would predict or prophecy something.. then What that writter predicted; would actually happen! Because a writer YEARS in the future of the course of this book being written would actually write down what he is literally seeing and being to told to write down by god. Actually fulfilling the prophecy of previous prophets! these patterns of prophecy’s/fulfillments occur all over the bible in many short and very long stretches of time periods.. I’m which they were literally written.. Now lets go back to our literal timeline. Prophets predicted Jesus coming to earth (people living in the BCs) and him dying and rising from the dead. Meaning these guys predicted things your timeline shows you as fact (Not the creating of some Jesus theory) but an actually prophecy/fulfillment of your very own timeline by people living thoughsands of years ago!! (no don’t bring up dinosaurs evolutionists) ever wonder why ancient Asia would paint alot of “dragons” India “also dragons” Mexico south America. Mideval times these guys where killing “dragons” yea the bible talks about huge animals too. Dragons didn’t exist billions of years ago sorry. They are what you guys call dinosaurs(a word that wasn’t even a word until about the 1800s). Scientists throw you facts facts facts ECT research buncha boring stuff. (sorry i won’t be impressed until you can predict future world series champions future events with your science… Hey even the bible is not finished prophesising. There are still events yet to happen. And you earthy patterns of religious people keep fulfilling the bibles prophecies right under your very noses. By beheading Christians, starting rumors of wars. Traveling to and fro the earth(how is it that we go from riding horse and donkey to riding plane and vehicle in just one generation?) dude wake up the bible predicts that we would travel to and fro across earth eventually. You religious patterns atheists ect claim the god of the bible who is Jesus Christ isn’t real yet you don’t realize how outsmarted you are by the fact that you your self are fulfilling bible prophecy! Beheading Christians? Yupp Paul wrote you would do this 2000ish years ago. Making Israel a nation in the 1900s. Also in the bible. Not to metion the bible predicts by a prophet named Daniel the future world powers after his time. Persia grece Rome ECT in the order in which they would rise and fall and his prophecy stretches to our time as well! It ends with Jesus 2nd coming.. And the bible written by authors YEARS AGO continue to prophecy and happening proving how alive this book really is BEING THE WORD OF THE GOD OF YOUR TIMELINE… think about that.. Anyone who says the god of the bible Jesus isn’t real. Will just throw facts facts facts countless research and arguments of what happened in the past past past… Sorry the only “religion” that can be literally correct is the one that speaks in prophecy predicting the future over and over again. The one that follows the risen god who is Jesus Christ. Not allah not the virgin marry not saints not idols none of that…. Atheist evolutionist only You give me facts based on research from the past. We give you talents, wisdom, abilities, skills that have a touch of light in them. The light of Jesus. Again you give me facts based on research from the past. We give you facts based on prophecies from the past present future. But we love you.. We are not selfish. We want you to have and feel the presence of the realest thing you could spiritually encounter. The light of Jesus the god of our timeline. Being connected spiritualy, mentaly, to the actual Jesus who wants to share this gift of his presence. There is only one way one Jesus one bridge that connects us to The god who will answer you but can only open himself to you… If youre willing to open your self to him…..

  4. Narf says

    @4 – Luis Lopez
    I think we’ve just discovered what happens when something becomes too incoherent to qualify as word-salad. What the hell point were you trying to make? That mass of insanity was almost meaningless. The individual sentences seemed to make sense at times, but they weren’t arranged in any kind of order that makes sense.

    Is Dennis Markuze out on bail or something, guys?

  5. Jarrod Brown says

    I cannot find the 4/19 episode on iTunes. Normally the most current episode shows up on iTunes Sunday evening.

  6. Narf says

    I’m not sure it counts as reading. The guy didn’t seem to have a thought that held together for more than two sentences at a time. It’s almost like reading Jabberwocky, only Jabberwocky flows much better, because it was written by a competent poet.

  7. Jacob Summers says

    Almost a month of no shows and now I can’t find the new one in the archive. I’m facing serious withdrawal here. Help a brother out.

  8. StonedRanger says

    I made it about a third of the way through that mess. Skipped to the end and damned if it wasn’t some lame Christian rant. It was quite difficult to figure out. The spelling at times, and the grammar at times gave me a headache. I tried to do a critique in my head, but this crap is all over the board and doesn’t make a point until the very end. Just read the last couple sentences and you will get the gist of it. Did any of the show have anything to do with this rant, or is this just some random Christ lover who thought they were going to change us atheists with his “well thought out” plea?

  9. danielliev says

    @Narf
    Twas brillig, and the slimy toves
    Did gyre and gimble in the god of your timeline
    All mimsy were the jesus prophecy
    And the mome raths were neither catholic, Hindu, Muslim, catholic, or athiest

  10. Hippycow says

    “…feel the presence of the realest thing you could spiritually encounter.”
    LOL. Sounds like an oxymoron there. The “realest” as in just smidgen more “real” than the other fictional characters we might “spiritually encounter?” You need to work on your sales pitch, bud.

    “The light of Jesus the god of our timeline.”
    Uh, actually, you may want to do a little more research on this claim. The mystery cult that arose around the most likely fictional character called “Jesus” was supposed to be the god (actually lord, not god, as Yahweh was supposed to be the god, with Jesus being his earthly emissary with the “lord” (but not god) title). Your simple minded modern misinterpretation is due to you not knowing the “deeper secrets” hidden in the Jesus allegory.

    Anyway, please make a sincere effort to learn something about your own (actually someone else’s who you’ve meekly accepted) beliefs, their history and correct interpretation. I heartily suggest you start with Richard Carrier’s excellent new book On the Historicity of Jesus. It is not just about historicity, but includes all the historical detail of that time and place in the world and of course, of the myth making process itself. Report back when you’re finished.

  11. Hippycow says

    Whoops, shot myself in the foot with my own run-on sentence. This:
    The mystery cult that arose around the most likely fictional character called “Jesus” was supposed to be the god (actually lord, not god, as Yahweh was supposed to be the god, with Jesus being his earthly emissary with the “lord” (but not god) title)…
    Should be saying that Jesus was supposed to be the “lord” of a very specific timeline: he was supposed to return before the end of the generation of his first followers. That means he should have returned sometime in the first century, early second at the latest. He didn’t. Shockingly.

    Since then, every subsequent generation of gullible followers have come up with some sort of rationalization and rejiggering of the claim in order to claim that they are the chosen generation. After 100 or so repetitions of this charade, you’d think they might start to get wise, but alas, it continues.

  12. Charles Insandiego says

    Glad y’all are back! Any chance of a downloadable audio file being made available so we can all share in the goodness?

  13. Hippycow says

    I’m praying to the gods of digital audio in hopes that the MP3 will appear on the archives page soon…

  14. troy says

    Narf, I believe the word salad was a long way of asking you to just submit your mind…you know, for others to tell you what you think.

  15. troy says

    Hank, that’s well done. Your site would have had me spray soda out my nose had I read it 5 seconds sooner.

  16. Narf says

    @15 – Martin Wagner

    What’s worse than word salad? Novella-length wall-of-text word salad without paragraph breaks.

    If he was going to use paragraph breaks, he would have to start a new paragraph about twice per sentence, since the purpose of paragraph breaks is to indicate a major shift in subject or direction.

  17. Narf says

    @23 – troy

    Narf, I believe the word salad was a long way of asking you to just submit your mind…you know, for others to tell you what you think.

    He needs to stop letting the mob of hyperactive 5 year-olds in the back seat tell him what to think.

  18. Bill Burgess says

    I was so affected by hearing the Mark from Austin compilation that I have to ask if anyone else was.
    Matt and all were brilliant as well as patient and even kind to Mark of course.
    What compelled me was by the end of most calls, Mark was almost ready to question and think.
    Every time he would call back after talking to church members and hearing sermons, thinking he now had the argument.
    These are the most painful and fascinating exchanges I’ve ever heard.
    Thanks for all your good and generous work.

  19. Luis Lopez says

    @all of the obove……. I know it’s wrong for me to front like I understand your theology
    as well as I think I understand mine,
    but I know we can agree on this:
    Something is deathly wrong with us

    And you, smarty pants, don’t front
    Like the little you know about our universe
    and youre ready to draw conclusions about it’s origins?
    Maybe we don’t know as much as we think we do

    Like you never took your world view to it’s furthest conclusions?
    That if human behavior is just what protoplasm does at this temperature,
    then there is no need for humanitarian effort,
    because these atrocities weren’t wrong,
    “It’s just the universe weeding out bad genes”
    They are like fingernail-on-chalkboard words aren’t they?……..
    You’re lying

    Maybe I’m wrong, maybe you’re right
    Maybe we’ll find out the day after the world ends
    Yeah, I guess we’re all a little inconsistent,
    – Forgive me for asking –

  20. says

    @30:

    My thoughts exactly.

    Luis Lopez, you may think you’re damaged goods because of some inherited “crime”, but I don’t. You’ve not only allowed dogma to dehumanise you, you’re taking part in the dehumanisation yourself. I find that pitiful.

    And you may think there’s no point trying to help people if we’re just animated meat, without morals given to us by a ghost, but I disagree. I help people because they need it; because I can imagine what it’s like for someone else to suffer, via my sense of empathy (which is not limited to human beings, by the way) and because I have also suffered. I suspect you do exactly the same when you help people, but have been conditioned to think you’re following ghostly orders. That’s equally pitiful. That or you help people in the expectation of being rewarded for it in the afterlife, which isn’t morality. It’s grotesque selfishness.

    Finally, “forgive” you for asking?

    I would, but I don’t think you’re “asking” anything. Asking implies that you want an answer and are willing to consider it. But your “questions” seem to be a thin disguise for preaching and condemnation.

    Which is also pitiful. And weak. Take your self-loathing and your monstrous god with you when you leave.

  21. troy says

    Luis, why make it so complicated? this is the only world we have access to, so how about we live in it.
    minimize or eliminate suffering, maximize happiness (but never at the expense of others). generally, these are the tenants of the modern (adult) atheist, no ancient book can do better than that. it really is that simple…when in doubt, apply these rules and tell me life isn’t better, simpler.
    explore the wonder of the world around you, study science and biology, anthropology…secular existence is amazing.
    your words make you seem…lost. I hope you escape the world you are trapped in and embrace reality and THIS life.

  22. Luis Lopez says

    If my theory was not valid. Then there would not be the need to prove it wrong. Simply, why Are you spending your/time, coming back to this post in an attempt to prove me wrong, your title even says that all you do is try to prove me wrong.no I’m boldly saying:Jesus is god period. Not @hippycow. You’re welcome to reshare your posts on “how I’m wrong” and be evidential proof to what i mean by “spending your time trying to prove me wrong”. Tell me your truth. Not your dissection of my truth. Right now. To tell me your truth you have no choice whats so ever but to return to research….. not source. Ask your self. Who’s the source of your theory? . Probably research not source. Even darwins source was his research.

  23. Narf says

    @29 – Luis Lopez
    We aren’t mocking you for your theology. We’re mocking you for your inability to make any freaking sense. This message wasn’t much of an improvement.

    What little I could prize from this last comment is just wrong. You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, nor do you seem to have the ability to communicate those wrongheaded ideas.

    but I know we can agree on this:
    Something is deathly wrong with us

    And you would be wrong. I don’t think any of the regulars in this comment section would agree with that statement, even if you could express it in such a way that it made any damned sense at all.

    Like the little you know about our universe
    and youre ready to draw conclusions about it’s origins?
    Maybe we don’t know as much as we think we do

    Dude, we have scientists poking the universe and seeing how it works. They test things and then try to invalidate the conclusions of those tests, in order to make sure that the results indicate what we think they indicate.

    You and your fellow religious nuts discount any indicator that your worldview is incorrect. You’re not interested in finding out what is really real. We’ve learned a great deal since the time that a bunch of Bronze age savages wrote the myths in your holy book. A lot of the things that we’ve learned demonstrate that a lot of the stuff in your holy book is just flat-out wrong.

    Just because we don’t know everything, you can’t say that we don’t know anything, unless you want to look like a willfully ignorant simpleton.

    Like you never took your world view to it’s furthest conclusions?

    Yes, all the time. How often do you examine the efficacy of your epistemology, if you know what that word means?

    You think that our worldview is inconsistent, because you don’t understand a damned thing about our worldview. I’ve read something like a dozen Christian apologetics book. Christian apologists don’t understand a goddamned thing about atheism, agnosticism, or skepticism, as demonstrated by the way they talk about them in their books.

    If you were actually interested in learning about our worldview and would listen and learn, I would be happy to teach you. Sadly, I suspect you aren’t, and this isn’t the proper forum for something like that, anyway.

    That if human behavior is just what protoplasm does at this temperature,
    then there is no need for humanitarian effort,
    because these atrocities weren’t wrong,
    “It’s just the universe weeding out bad genes”
    They are like fingernail-on-chalkboard words aren’t they?……..
    You’re lying

    I suspect that you don’t understand the first thing about biological evolution, never mind the more complex subject of behavioral anthropology. Again, I would love to explain some things to you, if you’d be willing to learn, but I suspect you aren’t. We could start out with me explaining what the naturalist fallacy is.

    Don’t accuse someone of lying, when you don’t understand anything about the subject.

    Maybe we’ll find out the day after the world ends
    Yeah, I guess we’re all a little inconsistent,

    All of us will be dead, long before the Earth becomes uninhabitable for life.

    But please speak for yourself, about inconsistency. If you can demonstrate something in my worldview that is inconsistent, I’ll change my mind to make my worldview more consistent. That’s how rationality works.

  24. Narf says

    @33&34 – Luis Lopez

    If my theory was not valid. Then there would not be the need to prove it wrong.

    You don’t seem to understand how argumentation works.

    Lots of people believe lots of silly things, for bad reasons. We want people to believe more correct things, for good reasons. You persuade them by showing them where their thinking is not logically consistent and correct.

    Simply, why Are you spending your/time, coming back to this post in an attempt to prove me wrong, your title even says that all you do is try to prove me wrong.

    Most of us are regulars here. We come here to discuss things about a show that we all enjoy. Why are you here?

    We argue with theists who come here, because sometimes they can be reached. Plus, it’s good to check your own worldview and make sure that you believe things for good reasons. Hearing the arguments that people make for an opposing worldview is a good way to do that.

    no I’m boldly saying:Jesus is god period.

    That’s nice. Now, please demonstrate why we should think the same thing.

    Tell me your truth. Not your dissection of my truth. Right now. To tell me your truth you have no choice whats so ever but to return to research….. not source.

    No. That isn’t the way this works. If you have a specific question, we’ll be happy to answer that question, I imagine. You haven’t asked us a single coherent question yet, including this one.

    Please demonstrate this Source and explain to us why we should accept what that book says, instead of the dozens or hundreds of other mythological tales. What method did you use to determine that you should believe anything that comes from your Source?

    My source is the Jesus of your timeline right under your noses.

    That sentence made no damned sense.

  25. Hippycow says

    Okay, so Luis essentially says he’s happy to continue to live with beliefs that someone else (a couple thousand years ago) invented for him, rather than making any effort to think or learn anything new. I think there’s no point in wasting any more time on this one. He seems to be the four-legged character from Numbers 22:28.

  26. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    @Luis Lopez

    That if human behavior is just what protoplasm does at this temperature,
    then there is no need for humanitarian effort,

    This is what you need to understand: temporary pleasure and happiness is better than nothing. The existence or non-existence of an immaterial soul or infinite afterlife changes nothing. We both seek happiness and pleasure for ourselves and our fellow human beings for its own sake, and this is true whether or not there is an immaterial soul or an afterlife, and this is true whether the happiness and pleasure is finite or endless.

    I suggest you enjoy the limited time that you have left, rather than squandering it on a lie.

  27. Narf says

    @38 – Hippycow
    Yeah, the first statement from comment 33 is so pathetically desperate:

    If my theory was not valid. Then there would not be the need to prove it wrong.

    First, I love that he thinks he has a theory. I haven’t seen anything that was coherent enough to count as a theory, even in the colloquial sense, never mind the scientific sense.

    The base statement is just so much wrong, though. So, the more insanely wrong someone is about something, the less we should try to straighten them out about their wrongheadedness? Who could possibly make a statement that insane?

  28. AhmNee says

    “To tell me your truth you have no choice whats so ever but to return to research….. not source. Ask your self. Who’s the source of your theory? . Probably research not source. Even darwins source was his research.”

    Observational Evidence. Learn it. Love it.

  29. rodney says

    I didn’t read the giant wall of text, but if Luis is saying that his belief in Jesus is his theory, then at least he admits that he’s not sure if it’s true, so that’s a start I guess.

    Could someone post a link to the current episode, I can’t find it.

  30. troy says

    @44 Rodney,
    Luis only says it is a theory but if you sift thru the word salad, you know he does not mean it. there is no nuance in his argument other than stating it is a theory makes him seem open minded, just standard pre-supposition, inside the box, thinking. maybe it is the language translator he is using that is messing it up.

  31. says

    Wow wall of text. I got maybe halfway through it before giving up. It reads like someone who was completely smashed decided to try to get philosophical… like one of those drunk history YouTube videos.

  32. Narf says

    @30 – PeterJ

    Any ETA for the episode being available in the AE archive?

    The .mp3 is already up. The video will probably be posted to YouTube in another couple of days.

  33. Narf says

    @29 – Bill Burgess

    I was so affected by hearing the Mark from Austin compilation that I have to ask if anyone else was.

    Sadly, the whole thing was kind of ruined once it was revealed that he was a total faker. He was an atheist calling in with a bunch of nonsense, using an accent. The same guy made a couple more calls after he was outed, using completely different accents.

    One of his big mistakes was picking a local church in the Austin area. Matt got in touch with the pastors of the church to see what was up with the wacky things that they were teaching ‘Mark’.

  34. Narf says

    @Jasper & troy
    In his second attempt at communication, Luis’s comments are peppered with a lot of what I can only think of as gangsta street-talk or something similar, which makes me feel like I’m being vaguely racist. I don’t think he fed the thing through Google Translate, since it wouldn’t have that much hipster slang. I just think he isn’t used to reading and writing or making coherent arguments.

  35. troy says

    @49, Narf
    just a theory that he used a translator. in his second post, replace where he used the word ‘front’ with ‘act’ and at least 2 sentences make slightly more sense.

  36. Narf says

    That’s exactly what I meant, yeah. That’s some sort of gangsta slang. I don’t think a translator would spit out verbiage like that. You tend to get screwed up articles and stuff like that, from translators. His comments suffer more from a lack of thought flow, rather than any kind of indicative grammar issues. I think a translator would have cleaned up a lot of his capitalization typos, too.

    Look at the way he breaks up his sentences. He doesn’t seem to know when it’s appropriate to use a comma or when you should use a sentence break. Look at the line which I quoted in comment #42. Who breaks up an if/then statement like that? I don’t think he’s used to writing.

  37. Luis Lopez says

    Simply. You return to prove me wrong. To the guy who said who is your source.-Jesus- the a living creator of the universe is my source. I’m boldly saying there is a creator period. You see. You must be a bit slow if you don’t agree that even this country. But over all, our entire world was brought up by biblical understanding plus a deep, logical, belief of the god of Abraham,Jacob, Isaiah, who infact is jesus. Church was a logical thing in America since we where brought up by puritant principals. Your own ansestors grew up going to Sunday school. You prove your one step behind by denying god. there fore fulfilling bible prophecies. I know its hard to for you to understand my theology. Yet I understand yours like a first grader reading 20 word book. But its not that impressive so I don’t dig up the need to prove you wrong. Instead prove me right. Using prophecy and source not words written on paper. Unless your words on paper can prophecy. I’m not all impressed

  38. Luis Lopez says

    Narf, I am a talented writer; I praise god for that. I have the ability to break up sentences, use commas. Yet the tab key isn’t available on this mobile device. Simply, it takes to long. You’re a smart man; I shouldn’t have to write like this in order for you to understand me. Or if I do; need to write like this, for you to understand my point. feel free to ask. (I didn’t upper case the “Feel” on purpose) hoping you’d catch that.

  39. rodney says

    It’s weird the way he keeps saying people are returning, as if it’s his message board, he’s the one that keeps returning. I’m starting to wonder if it’s someone trolling, seems too odd and goofy to be real.

  40. Hippycow says

    I’m with you rodney, I think it is a Poe and a troll. The “theology” is not there and the middle-school style taunting is all troll.

  41. Narf says

    @54&55 – Luis Lopez

    Simply. You return to prove me wrong.

    Dude, I’ve been active on this blog for years. What’s wrong with your comprehension?

    I’m boldly saying there is a creator period. You see. You must be a bit slow if you don’t agree that even this country. But over all, our entire world was brought up by biblical understanding plus a deep, logical, belief of the god of Abraham,Jacob, Isaiah, who infact is jesus.

    Most of the southern half of Asia would disagree with you. The two most populous countries in the world don’t have many Christians in them. The only real influence that Christianity has had upon India was when the British conquered it and colonized it. Only about 2.5% of Indians are Christian, and about 2.3% of Chinese.

    You calling us “a bit slow” is so freaking ironic.

    Church was a logical thing in America since we where brought up by puritant principals. Your own ansestors grew up going to Sunday school.

    The Puritans had almost no influence on the foundation of our country, outside of the storybooks, man. They were a tiny percentage of the colonists who came over here during the colonial period. If anything, the deists had far more influence on the crafting of the Constitution than the Puritans did.

    You prove your one step behind by denying god. there fore fulfilling bible prophecies.

    I don’t think you understand what the word ‘prove’ means.

    I know its hard to for you to understand my theology. Yet I understand yours like a first grader reading 20 word book.

    I probably understand Christian mythology/theology better than you do. Have you read your Bible, cover to cover? I have.

    And if you understand my worldview so well, would you please demonstrate that you understand it, rather than engaging in this childish posturing?

    But its not that impressive so I don’t dig up the need to prove you wrong. Instead prove me right. Using prophecy and source not words written on paper. Unless your words on paper can prophecy. I’m not all impressed

    That entire chunk of text was a mess. I have no idea what you were even trying to say.

    Narf, I am a talented writer; I praise god for that.

    Uhhhhhhhhh, not in English you aren’t.

  42. Narf says

    @Hippycow (& rodney)

    I’m with you rodney, I think it is a Poe and a troll. The “theology” is not there and the middle-school style taunting is all troll.

    I don’t know, man. I guess all sorts of things are possible, but I can’t see a specific reason to think he’s a faker. I’ve encountered plenty of half-wits like this guy, in person. Some people just aren’t that bright and can’t make effective use of language. The most charitable conclusion I can come up with is that English isn’t his first language, and he isn’t nearly as fluent in English as he thinks he is.

    I’m hesitant to grant him any concessions, though, since he’s such a mindless, preachy asshole.

  43. meow meow meow says

    If you want the audio I suggest you install the Atheist Experience app and then you can listen to TAE, The Nonprophets, and Godless Bitches all in one place. The TAE audio is usually up in 24hrs.

  44. AhmNee says

    “Narf, I am a talented writer”
    Uh! You asshole. I just shot water out of my nose. Don’t do that when I’m drinking, dude.
    .
    “You must be a bit slow if you don’t agree that even this country.”
    Read that again and let the irony seep in.
    .
    “I know its hard to for you to understand my theology.”
    Not really. You don’t even know your own source material.
    .
    “I shouldn’t have to write like this in order for you to understand me.”
    Writing in complete sentences would be a step in the right direction.

  45. AhmNee says

    Narf: 58
    “That entire chunk of text was a mess. I have no idea what you were even trying to say.”
    If I understand the theme he’s presenting IE

    Scientists throw you facts facts facts ECT research buncha boring stuff. (sorry i won’t be impressed until you can predict future world series champions future events with your science… Hey even the bible is not finished prophesising. There are still events yet to happen.

    He actually thinks the bible is prophetic. And obviously has no idea what a scientific model is.

  46. Hippycow says

    I can predict a future World Series with far more accuracy and specificity than the Bible ever has. Nate Silver can do doubt do much better than me.

    When the Bible accurately and specifically predicts a single World Series (or Superbowl, or anything), I will immediately accept it’s fictional character Jesus Christ as my Risen Lord and Savior!

  47. Hippycow says

    “…can do doubt do…” –> “…can no doubt do…”

    Sure would be be cool if posts could be edited. Just think how much me* and “talented author” Luis could improve the otherwise incomprehensible writing that obscures our literary genius!

    * “me” or “I”? Myself? Yours truly? If only I had any talent…

  48. oldskoolnyc says

    I’m sure glad you’re back! Been taking the Subway lately, and no sooner than I pull up the podcast, some woman starts prosletyzing on the train. Fortunately I was able to drown out most of the insane ramblings but, a few filtered through, during pauses in conversation. Probably some anti-gay rant from, the reactions of the passengers that, unfortunately were subjected to it. Well, I’ll be back to my reverse commute soon and driving solo but, you guys saved me that torture this morning!

  49. Narf says

    @65 – Hippycow
    I don’t think any amount of editing control will help Luis make his posts coherent. You need editing ability, before you can make proper use of editing controls.

    Allowing full editing causes more trouble than it’s worth, though. We’d get people saying insane things, then changing them and denying they ever said it. Better to just deal with the occasional typo.

  50. says

    What is religion?

    A set of unsubstantiated dogma a group of folks believe in.

    Define your religion?( If any) …

    There are some philosophies that I’d cop to generally, but none of them fall into the religious category since they require neither faith nor any god.

    -if religions destroy families- then why are there so many broken homes.

    Because people sometimes don’t get along.

    Out of millions of broken homes how many are because of religion? I can only assume the answer…. Not give an exact number.

    Me either, but definitely significant, since I’ve seen religion break up homes. That said, I’ve got some questions for you: Why does religion break up homes? Does god want families to disown each other over how to believe in god? Is religion evil if it were to only break up one home?

    How many are because a member fails to conform?The problem again is broken homes.

    So, when ISIS beheads Christians, the problem is just beheading and definitely not religion?

    Eminem slim shady , what was his religion? Was it his music? Fame? Fortune?, wait define religion again? It goes deeper hold on reader.

    Do you worship Eminem as a god?

    Is religion man made? Ask your self… Sure I would say it is…. Personally(let me jump in here) I don’t like religion…

    Agree with you here, religion and the concept of god seems to be entirely man-made.

    Religion is man using his good deeds and what ever rituals or stuff they do to (get closer to god) or what ever. By means of their religious patterns.. To achive what ever it is their aming for. Eyy kinda like Eminem. Then go deeper into their stuff.

    Not sure what this has to do with Eminem. Do you by chance like to listen to his music while consume brain altering substances?

    Catholics, Muslims, Hindu, buddah, researchers, atheist,(hold up hold up, stand tall warrior, hold on to your belief right now, after all you’re just trying to convince that”YOU ARE RIGHT OVER THE REST” right ? right MR. Catholics, Muslims, buddist, atheist(atheist gotta be in the picture) its like a battle field, to see who is correct and reign supreme over the rest… “of belief Patterns” to prove who has TRUTH over all…. Don’t back down you coward!! Muslim, catholic Darwin buddah atheist teacher.

    Well, most atheists just reject what the religious are selling. There is no atheist bible and a majority of atheists realize they aren’t omniscient gods and can’t claim absolutely that there is no god, we atheists are just unconvinced. Sure, we want everyone to know that “None” is a religious option and that we exist.

    Kid in front class saying persuation speach, all of you!…. Now what is religion again? So now ask your self reader. Don’t be a coward to ask your self.(this is the most literal question that even a ten year old can ask him self) so who is correct over all??? Now think think think think think think…. Hmmm.. Are you right atheist? How about you Muslim? And you Christian? And you catholic? How about you buddist? Mr evolutionist. Hop in the battle field…Which one of you literal human beings with flesh bones DNA blood(you get it WE ARE ALL HUMAN) so who is right?

    I’m not an omniscient god, therefore I can’t know for sure if I’m right. I believe that I’m right, but given that I was a believer before, I know I have the capacity to be wrong while still thinking that I’m right.

    Now. We are all in the battle field right now . Hold on to your belief you coward. Don’t back down or get offended either you wimp..

    I really don’t want to be at war with the religious, I’d rather we work together on progressing humanity in ways that are demonstrable. But, as long as there are people who think a holy book is the end-all source of knowledge, I fear that the struggle will continue.

    Personally I’m asking you this reader

    What? The following doesn’t look like a question. Oh, you’re just demonstrating your “great” writing skills. Carry on…

    ( lets throw in the fact that this is 2015 AD. After death.. ok. How about 6000 BC.. Before Christ? Why Christ? Funny thing is that our own human timeline points to exactly -Jesus Christ’s before and after death. And existence on earth…..( don’t back down you coward… Hold on to what you believe… Unless you wanna tap out you coward Muslim catholic atheist Christian, buddist evolutionist ect ) so ask your self now(did Jesus actually exist) if your own literal timeline points to it you dummy….

    Umm, because a pope decided a few hundred years ago to start using a Jesus-oriented calendar? That was around the time the most compelling argument for Christianity to date was in vouge, you know, the old argument that included a stake and some fire. You do know there are other calendars that aren’t centered around Jesus, right? To us atheists, is as arbitrary as if the calendar were based on Luis Lopez’s birthday.

    Personally I say he did exist how about you atheist?

    Richard Carrier would disagree, but I’ll give noted historian Luis Lopez’s opinion due consideration.

    Muslim? Christian? Hmm catholic ? Orthodox you say so also?… Hmm evolutionist? Take a shot at it. Don’t back down from the battle field now to see who is correct over all…. So evolutionist atheists buddist idk people who don’t believe in the god of the bible. Your religion is to convince the rest that you are correct over the rest..

    No, we’re just saying that we’re not buying your claims, it’s up to you to convince us. If I told you there is an invisible dragon living in my garage, would you believe me?

    Right..(ok ok ok. Chill chill, fine its not your religion what ever)…… Eh you’re still trying to convince that you’re correct over the rest. You’re not impressive really. Neither are you catholic..Hindu, Muslim, catholic, with your idols and statues that you claim to have power.

    In general, atheists aren’t trying to take over the world. We think the world would be a better place with less religion, but there is no atheist dogma we’re pushing. We might push some humanism, something Christians like to say Jesus was if you cherry pick the right passages.

    Pshhh lame..

    “Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.”

    (let me step into this battle field with Christ by my side) pshhh don’t back down you coward now that you know I’m Christian and I have Christ by my side. (oh you mad bro?)

    AWWWWW SNAP!!! You did it now bro! Wait, all of this stuff about being a coward was projection, wasn’t it? You know, if you feel hesitant about stating your beliefs, it’s probably because you know there is a problem with those beliefs. Some advice, take it or leave it: If you aren’t sure if what you believe is true, stop telling other people about it and go study what is said both for and against the belief. Do some “boring” research, you’ll be wiser for it.

    freedom of speech.

    Well, technically you are a guest of this website, as am I, but you’re right that you can’t be arrested by the government for being a Christian (at least in the US).

    Your religion Muslim what’s your pattern? How about your atheist? Catholic? Evolutionist? Bring out that patter of research bring it on step into the battlefield…. Excuse my sudden boldness.. (what’s my religion? Or pattern in this litteral world of flesh bone and millions of patterns of beliefs) naawww its not that we all see what ever it is that our religion had us convinced of… Or patterns…

    I think I saw a dude on motorcycle jumping a shark behind you… Nevermind, it was just a mirage.

    My religion is help the home less, give to the needy to the poor help those in need, be comfort to those in need.

    Great! Those are all awesome things and you don’t need Jesus to do any of those things, or to know why they are good things to do.

    To Follow Jesus… Yea that’s called a deciple) to follow the teacher to follow and do what Jesus would do.

    Umm, now you’re sort of drifting off the rails. Please don’t curse any fig trees, or make a scourge for the bankers (they might deserve it, but violence is rarely the answer).

    Help those in need that’s what Jesus would do..

    That’s not a great reason to do something kind to others, but if you need Jesus to threaten you with hell just to do good things, I guess the good things still get done.

    Oh you would also do the same Mr atheist catholic Muslim buddist evolutionist. That’s back to the -good deeds- part of religion.

    “Good deeds” and “religion” are separate sets. They may overlap a little, and I’m generally fine with those who live in that overlap, but good deeds are good deeds, regardless of religion.

    Naa I do it because I’m following the teacher.

    That’s a horrible reason, what if your teacher asks you to kill your child? You should do it for goodness sake, not because some teacher told you to.

    Yea dude the Jesus of your litteral timeline) yea I follow that exact Jesus.

    You mean the dude who probably didn’t literally exist, who was only put into our calendar system a few hundred years ago?

    Who actually rose from the dead.

    Wait a minute, next thing you’re going to tell me is that there was a burning bush that spoke to someone, or that food rained down from the sky. C’mon, I ain’t no foo!

    Yea he’s alive right then bro

    Where does he live? Does he have a public TV access show?

    (where do you think I get this writing talent from?

    Well, you aren’t writing in Aramaic or Hebrew, so said “talent” didn’t come from Jesus. Maybe you should diversify your audience (like you are now) to illicit some more constructive feedback. I’ve understood about 75% of what you’ve read, if that’s any help.

    Yea i follow god(yea Jesus is god) are you still in this battle field? Don’t back down keep reading coward after all hes alive 2015 after what?, 6000 before what occurred.. BC.. Christ. death death death ok your timeline proves death actually existed.

    If you think the calendar is proof of Jesus, when you’re clearly ignorant of the history of the calendar, and I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

    ( if you can’t accept the name of your timeline… I call that bad math bro)

    Then you clearly don’t know what “math” is. A number line is math (of which your precious calendar lacks a 0, btw), but a label for a particular arbitrary timeline is not math, it’s just a label.

    ha. You know what else is bad math. If you can’t accept the fact that the bible was literally written.

    Oh my, teachable moment number 2: “Math” also isn’t a claim about the providence of a book. Numbers don’t write books, people do.

    Ok so the bible was written in the course of a couple thousands of years. By people of all kinds and many prophets of course. The reason i say prophets is because if we start from the very beginning of the most known book in the world.(stay in the battlefield ) the very first writers would get revelation from god who yes is the Jesus that your own timeline claims, who would tell them what would happen in the future because after all he is god.

    Where is the calendar system called out in the bible? Nevermind, found it: Bullshitians 3:16: “Thou shalt use the day of the birth of Jesus as the calendar system, but leave out the zero.”

    But of course Jesus gets this from the father. (holy trinity) father son and holy spirit.( that’s a little deeper talk)

    Did you just call the holy spirit cheap talk? Do you know what the one unforgivable sin is?

    hey try Jesus dude if you’re not standing on this battlefield anymore… Lets keep going… so one writter would predict or prophecy something.. then What that writter predicted; would actually happen! Because a writer YEARS in the future

    It’s almost like they read the old book that contained the prophecy and made up a story to match. How the hell did they do that? Magic!

    of the course of this book being written would actually write down what he is literally seeing and being to told to write down by god. Actually fulfilling the prophecy of previous prophets! these patterns of prophecy’s/fulfillments occur all over the bible in many short and very long stretches of time periods.. I’m which they were literally written..

    As an atheist, I was a bit taken aback when I read how the prophet Jeremiah wrote how I was going to read some of the most inane thing on the internet today, and STILL TAKE TIME TO RESPOND! But, alas, my will has persevered and I’m still an atheist.

    Now lets go back to our literal timeline. Prophets predicted Jesus coming to earth (people living in the BCs) and him dying and rising from the dead. Meaning these guys predicted things your timeline shows you as fact (Not the creating of some Jesus theory) but an actually prophecy/fulfillment of your very own timeline by people living thoughsands of years ago!!

    Isn’t it amazing?!?! It’s almost like the people at the Council of Nicaea deliberately cherry picked and edited the books that would become the New Testament just to fit what they could find in the Torah, good thing they were divinely inspired or I’d be a bit more skeptical.

    (no don’t bring up dinosaurs evolutionists) ever wonder why ancient Asia would paint alot of “dragons” India “also dragons” Mexico south America. Mideval times these guys where killing “dragons”

    I know, there’s an invisible one living in my garage. He so exists and certainly isn’t just a tall tale I’m telling you to make a point.

    yea the bible talks about huge animals too.

    Does the bible say anything about finding bones that are millions of years old? If not, that was a missed opportunity for a prophet! Amiright?

    Dragons didn’t exist billions of years ago sorry.

    So, this is a relatively minor, but obvious display of your ignorance of science. The first vertebrates we’ve found are about 500 million years old, with the first dinosaurs appearing about 200 million years ago. You really haven’t ever studied the data or the bald facts, let alone any of the theories that science has produced to explain the data/facts, have you?

    They are what you guys call dinosaurs(a word that wasn’t even a word until about the 1800s).

    If dinosaurs were around in biblical times, just like cows and sheep were, why would we call them something different in the 1800s? It couldn’t be because we didn’t know what they were until the 1800s, because dragons were obviously flying around in biblical times.

    Scientists throw you facts facts facts ECT research buncha boring stuff. (sorry i won’t be impressed until you can predict future world series champions future events with your science…

    So, science can land people on the moon, and get them back to earth, and you think it’s all bunk? Do you know you’re using the internet that only works because it is built on the foundation of physics? Go watch the Bill Nye/Ken Ham debate if you’d like a little taste of what science has delivered. Also, scientists aren’t really driven to predict sports (although, some dabble), it’s more about understanding how the world works to, you know, help people understand things like medicine.

    Hey even the bible is not finished prophesising.

    People are adding new prophecies to the bible? I guess there are the Mormons, good point!

    There are still events yet to happen. And you earthy patterns of religious people keep fulfilling the bibles prophecies right under your very noses. By beheading Christians, starting rumors of wars.

    And, probably the biggest potential threat religion makes is to destroy humanity. I’m going to work as hard as I possibly can to make sure you deluded fools don’t start a war with the goal of destroying humanity.

    Traveling to and fro the earth(how is it that we go from riding horse and donkey to riding plane and vehicle in just one generation?) dude wake up the bible predicts that we would travel to and fro across earth eventually.

    Yea, “eventually”, after we figured out how to throw the yoke of religious dogma off to actually better humanity. What happened to god’s people when they met the iron chariots?

    You religious patterns atheists ect claim the god of the bible who is Jesus Christ isn’t real yet you don’t realize how outsmarted you are by the fact that you your self are fulfilling bible prophecy! Beheading Christians? Yupp

    Yep, we atheists are trying to stop you religious idiots from thinking that beheading is a good thing, but some of you won’t listen.

    Paul wrote you would do this 2000ish years ago. Making Israel a nation in the 1900s. Also in the bible. Not to metion the bible predicts by a prophet named Daniel the future world powers after his time. Persia grece Rome ECT in the order in which they would rise and fall and his prophecy stretches to our time as well! It ends with Jesus 2nd coming.. And the bible written by authors YEARS AGO continue to prophecy and happening proving how alive this book really is BEING THE WORD OF THE GOD OF YOUR TIMELINE… think about that.. Anyone who says the god of the bible Jesus isn’t real. Will just throw facts facts facts countless research and arguments of what happened in the past past past…

    The only way any of these supposed predictions will come true is if sane people stand by and let you religious loons start your war of Armageddon. Funny how there are always predictions that it’s going to happen THIS YEAR, yet it never does.

    Sorry the only “religion” that can be literally correct is the one that speaks in prophecy predicting the future over and over again. The one that follows the risen god who is Jesus Christ. Not allah not the virgin marry not saints not idols none of that….

    I’ll let you sort that out with those folks.

    Atheist evolutionist only You give me facts based on research from the past. We give you talents, wisdom, abilities, skills that have a touch of light in them.

    Talk about delusions of grandeur… You’ve given us dark ages, wars, inquisitions, pain and suffering, and you still have the gall to claim that religion does anything but suck the one and only life a human has into a dream world of a fictitious god. It’s a pity and a tragedy.

    The light of Jesus. Again you give me facts based on research from the past. We give you facts based on prophecies from the past present future.

    Science has given you the future. A future where you can live past 30. A future where ideas are sent at the speed of light. The only prophecies you speak of are war, destruction, pain and suffering. I will have none of it.

    But we love you..

    No, you don’t. By their fruit you will know them.

    We are not selfish.

    Yes you are, you only care about what Jesus thinks about your soul so he won’t send you to burn in hell for eternity.

    We want you to have and feel the presence of the realest thing you could spiritually encounter. The light of Jesus the god of our timeline. Being connected spiritualy, mentaly, to the actual Jesus who wants to share this gift of his presence. There is only one way one Jesus one bridge that connects us to The god who will answer you but can only open himself to you… If youre willing to open your self to him…..

    I will open myself to no monster who would have me burn for eternity for simply not believing in him.

    *spits*

  51. Narf says

    Is religion man made? Ask your self… Sure I would say it is…. Personally(let me jump in here) I don’t like religion…

    Agree with you here, religion and the concept of god seems to be entirely man-made.

    Sadly, I know where he was going with this one. He hates religion. He doesn’t want people to follow a religion. He wants them to follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    I’ve heard this bullshit attempt at redefinition from far to many apologists to not see it coming a mile off.

  52. says

    But of course Jesus gets this from the father. (holy trinity) father son and holy spirit.( that’s a little deeper talk)

    Did you just call the holy spirit cheap talk? Do you know what the one unforgivable sin is?

    There you go, proof that at least this atheist isn’t right all the time, I misread “deeper” as “cheaper”. My bad and my apologies. You probably haven’t committed the one unforgivable sin. I’ll make another point, though, about the holy trinity. Since you like “math” so much, this is irrefutable proof that your beliefs are false: 3 = 1 is an invalid mathematical equation

  53. Luis Lopez says

    Your irrefutable proof is that 3=1….What is water, vapor and ice? It’s exactly what John 5:7-8 is……. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word(Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one…. An unforgivable sin. Nice try. Haha you’re not impressive really.

  54. troy says

    @71 Luis
    even if we grant that water has 3 distinct states, how does that proof the bible or supernatural being? your strawman is an epic fail as the reference @70 WAS A STATEMENT OF MATH and not of water or the energy states of water molecules. if not for the others on this blog keeping me in stitches, I would have given up long ago. please don’t leave or give up, save me.

  55. Hippycow says

    I like how there is a lengthy point-by-point take down of Luis’ way hip and kewl hippity hoppity emimeny beat poetry and all he responds to is the silly joke about the trinity. Classic.

  56. Hippycow says

    The old and new testament were full of symbolic triads, as well as symbolic use of twelve (from old pagan/astrological adaptations), seven and to a lesser extent 30, 300, 360 and 616 or 666. So what? These numbers had different symbolic meanings for those writers, so the anonymous Greek writer called “Mark” (or was it Paul?) thought it was really nifty to invent this trinity thing. It has little to do with math or physics.

    Luis, once again, please educate yourself a little on the history of your belief system and the people who invented it for you: On the Historicity of Jesus. Don’t be afraid. I little knowledge won’t hurt you. You are guaranteed to learn some very interesting things your pastor never told you.

  57. Luis Lopez says

    You don’t have access to anything that predicts its self through out extended periods of time. From the time it was literally written by its original writers.

  58. Hippycow says

    The repeated use of “ECT” screams troll. Nobody can be that stupid. Not even a super talented author from the Eminem SkooL of pHat riTing.

  59. Hippycow says

    You don’t have access to anything that predicts its self through out extended periods of time.
    Neither do you.

    From the time it was literally written by its original writers.
    Go look up “literally” Mr. Talented Word Artiste. Yea, it be don’t front wat you be thinking it do.

  60. Luis Lopez says

    Ironically. Jesus Christ opens up a whole new world that’s beyond interesting or anything you could imagine. And What you can physically provide is temporary pleasures joys and happiness. Matter of fact the bible does predict its self many many times. If you where looking at a time line graph; and put a dot at the exact time period, that each book of the bible was written,(genesis proverbs, Daniel, psalms through the old testament and(Mathew, mark, luke John, Saul, revelation- new testament) by its original writter. You would notice the time life start from, beginning to end of your timeline drawing. By the age and time each author lived.

  61. paxoll says

    Really disappointed in Matt and Tracey’s discussion on circumcision. Seems they haven’t done any research on the topic, or have the background to analyze the research, so instead of relying on major medical societies positions including AAP, ACOG, and the AUA, they wave their hand and disregard the “research”. Then try to pander to this “moral” argument, about consent and such without really dealing with the issues such as, the major benefits are for children, it is a much safer and less traumatic procedure for newborns, or that adults make similar decisions that impact their child’s health all the time because that is what being a parent IS. So yes, they are making a naturalistic fallacy, that the “natural” condition is inherently better because NOTHING else supports their position.

  62. Luis Lopez says

    With that being said. The author daniel(predicted future world powers in the order that they would raise and fall starting from his time up until the roman empire then to a devided roman empire(being Europe). To an even later reunited European empire.(euro?one currency now)? To a future world government. the bible its self prophecies that nearing those times they would be beheading Christians for their faith…. Do you wonder why there’s no Christians in Asia, India, Syria? Maybe because they’re cutting their heads off. Like the bible prophecies. What damage do we do really? Were not hurting anybody. But its also prophecied that you would listen but not hear. Look but not see. Unless you’re willing to call on the name of Jesus in any way and see if he does answer. Then you’d understand why they persecute us. You’d understand much. But I have to speak to you in slangs just like Jesus did to a group of unbelievers. It’s like trying to see a lamp in the dark with the light off. Or hear a song without sound

  63. Luis Lopez says

    You can’t see the light on a lamp turned. unless you physically reach for it and decide to simply flip a swich.

  64. Luis Lopez says

    Not to mention all this time narf has been doing exactly what I said in comment #35 in this board. By (spending his time “dissecting” my truth to try and prove me wrong) over and over again. It’s all my sentences being taken apart and examined by narf., obviousy as you can see he “spent” sometime trying “dissect” and explain my truth. It wasn’t me that predicted that but the spirit of Christ that is with me, that through my writing allowed my words to flow together in a way to “prophecy” @narf’s time spent dissecting my truth- like I wrote in comment number 35. Glory to the living god. I’m just a man but the spirit that is with me has made him self available to all who believe and call on the name of Jesus Christ.

  65. Monocle Smile says

    Do you wonder why there’s no Christians in Asia, India, Syria?

    You dumb fuck. There are Christians in all of those places. Not many in Syria, but they exist.

    What damage do we do really? Were not hurting anybody

    AIDS in Africa.
    Catholic pedophilia.
    Slaughtering of children in Uganda.
    Fuck. You.

  66. Luis Lopez says

    Christians cause that??? Hahaha clearly you can’t comprehend that we are united in love towards each other but overall, in love towards people in general. We love you guys and its almost not fair for me to keep such an amazing connection and personal relationship with a real living god, to my self.

  67. Luis Lopez says

    In addition. I believe you are talking about freemason which really DO practice such awful rituals. some of Your own idol, pop stars, rappers government leaders, athletes. Claim to be part of such a secret society of freemasonry. Who they themselves are the ones pulling the strings behind your backs. Brainwashing you. We are the ones trying to warn you that this is not a game. You might think I’m the crazy one.but I speak out of love. To something that is out of your and my control. Mark my words. Truth is rising, Jesus is coming back soon. Just like prophecies of current world events continue to unfold as written

  68. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    @Luis Lopez
    My major complaints regarding religious people in general are:
    1- believing something for no good reason,
    2- praising others for believing something in no good reason,
    3- and otherwise harming critical thinking and rationality.

    You should apply the “outsider test for faith”. Are you willing to use the same standards of evidence that you use for bible prophecies for prophecies of other religious traditions? Other religious traditions have prophecies that are just as good as yours.

  69. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    Jesus is coming back soon

    According to the bible, Jesus himself said he would come back while some of his audience was still alive. Guess what. He didn’t. Jesus is a false apocalyptic prophet.

    It is literally true that Christians have been saying “Jesus is coming back soon” every year for two thousand years. They’ve been consistently wrong for two thousand years. Given the track record – every Christian for the last two thousand years being consistently wrong when they say Jesus is coming back soon – why should I believe you? Your claims are just as reputable as the claims of Christians in the past, and they were wrong, which means you are probably wrong.

  70. Blue says

    Tracie, yes not all codes are formed by minds. You don’t have to use DNA as your example. The caller knows one of these. I was given a tour of google last week and the guy said their search algorithms are evolved, not programmed, so they don’t fully understand exactly why it does certain things. I also have friends in biotech, and they use the same principle for drug design and other applications.

    There are multiple real life applications and examples of codes (either computer codes or non-DNA chemical codes, but he’s trying to be all bioinformaticy so he has to accept bioinformatics) which evolve to become something totally different from what they started as. I think they use DNA for these sorts of applications too, but don’t know that for sure.

  71. rodney says

    Come on, this Luis character is just trolling, that whole thing about water, steam, and ice was in Religilous. I think this is an atheist pulling everybody’s chain.

  72. Hippycow says

    Well, Luis, the reams of unassailable evidence, buttressed by flawless reasoning have had the inevitable effect: we all (I speak for everyone here) accept Jesus Christ as Our Risen Lord and Savior. Praise Jesus!

    kthxbye

    Literally.

  73. Robert, not Bob says

    Rodney (@94), I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. I’ve heard that exact comparison in church when I was a kid, and the whole congregation went “Ooh, how profound!” He’s coming from a place where word games and sloppy analogies are good arguments and firm averrals are evidence.

  74. kudlak says

    @rodney
    For the whole “Water, ice and vapour” analogy to work, however, it would have to be the same water existing in all three states at the exact same time, right? So, if God were actually like water he couldn’t exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the same time. He could only be one form at a time. I wonder how many oohs and aahs that would inspire in church, eh?

  75. says

    … its almost not fair for me to keep such an amazing connection and personal relationship with a real living god, to my self

    Maybe you’d be willing to do so anyway?

  76. Luis Lopez says

    To the guy who said “Jesus told his followers or what ever he would return to them” “and his second coming hasn’t come” that is a silly comment honestly considering the fact that they killed him on a cross/ the three days later when he rose from the dead, appeared to his disciples, had a meal with them and actually told them to feel him to know that its really him. There fore returning to them like “he said” according to you. Therefore not only making his prophecy true but also the prophecy of old testament prophets(writers) who lived thoughsands of years before the year 0. Who predicted his arrival, birth place, time living in Egypt, ressurection. Again litteral writers writing from their literal life span. Predicting literal events and WRITTINGS of actual physically written scriptures written around the year 0.

  77. Luis Lopez says

    Although that was a form of “second coming” to around a dozen people. The second coming im refering to, is the second coming also prophesied in the bible where Jesus cracks the sky open and every eyes shall see the son of god coming in the cloud. When he comes to establish his eternal reign on earth.(because He is literally god) and defeat (pay close attention) a one world government, an evil future world dictator known as the antichrist who demands people to receive a “Mark on the hand or forehead” other wise they can’t buy or sell. Not only does the bible(who was written through out times of horses and mules) predict isreal becoming a nation(google if Israel is a nation today) people traveling TO AND FROM THE ENDS OF THE EARTH around the time of his second coming. (we went from riding horses to riding airplanes in one generation) not only has every predicted prophecy of the bible come true so far. With still future prophecies to unfold(second coming) and present prophecies unfolding on a day to day basis. (airplanes, famines,earthquakes,(check an earthquake chart and you’ll notice the giant spike in one generation) (blood moons) Christians being beheaded for their faith (Europe beginning to unite) we see that in their currency and this was written by a prophet In the bc’s. Another one, the fact that people will not believe in god anymore and begin to drift off like snoozing infants (which also took one generation to go from Christian america to / Muslim president more atheist Americans. ECT ECT. BUT my favorite, that every nation will hear the truth of jesus before his second coming. That means more people will have the choice to accept the true living god. Why? Because mark my words. Truth is rising faster than you think. I’m not here to scare you because of the fact that the bible has a perfect record of prophecies and fullfilments. But to leave you with a choice to consider what you are hearing. (tip) if Jesus isn’t real. He wont respond. If he is, he will

  78. Luis Lopez says

    And no I am not trolling you(although you’ve amited your self to feel that way) I am a firm believer of Jesus Christ.. Your own words say. That my argument is and my evidence is correct. I also say that this is. Than just another bible prophecy you are witnessing. From the book of luke………” But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.”

  79. Hippycow says

    Luis, you are too ignorant and stubborn to even have a discussion. Even when they can be parsed out of your “talented” semi-literate writing. the idiotic things you say are so full of factual mistakes and logical errors, it is not even worth addressing.

    Go do some research on your own mythology. Read some Earl Doherty, Bart Ehrman, Richard Carrier, Richard Price, anything. Stop being an ignorant douche. There is no point trying to sell your ideas to others, when you don’t even know what they are.

  80. Robert, not Bob says

    (To borrow en example from Russell) I came back from the dead last week, and flew several hours over Los Angeles. Lots of witnesses! More than saw Jesus!

    See how easy that was? All you’ve got is evidence somebody wrote something. And Muslim Obama? Really? What’ll it be next-flat Earth?

  81. Luis Lopez says

    Read some bible. Logical is 2+1=3. Illogical would be 2+1=4. Sell my Ideas? Money is garbage. Keep your money.. Logical is separating every book of the bible(since the bible is made up of many “books” written by “bible characters them selves”; who make up the entire book known as the bible, which in fact (is) inspired by the word of god, who is Jesus Christ. Put an exact date on who and when each book was written. Put each book in order and compare the dates. Then compare the writing, and you’ll notice the bible predicts its self accurately. Defying the odds, and break open a sense. That our existance was in fact, created by a creator, who has a word, who IS, jesus the son. Who In fact is alive, after dying on a cross, for the sins of all humanity. The rising from the dead, he proved he is god. Making prophecies In the old testament fulfilled. Despite the age or mathematical time the the predictions or prophecies, where made. making, the trinity of; the father, the son(jesus,word of god), and the holy spirit. God

  82. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    There fore returning to them like “he said” according to you.

    You cannot have it both ways. Either

    1- the prophesied second coming already happened, which means you’re full of shit when you claim here that armageddon is any day now,

    2- or the prophesied second coming has not yet happened despite Jesus saying it would happen in the lifetimes of those present, which would mean Jesus is a failed prophet.

    You didn’t address the other part of the argument: That nuts like you have literally been saying this, literally the same message that Jesus is coming any day now, for 2,000 years. Hasn’t happened yet. Millenium’s over too. How much being wrong will it take to convince you? 2,000 years isn’t good enough?

  83. Luis Lopez says

    You can’t give me anything that predicts its self, through out extremely long periods of years in exact accuracy. No physical human beings have been able to predict events occurring thousands of years in the future, accurately. Besides the ones claiming to be inspired by the word of god. Who is Jesus.

  84. Monocle Smile says

    You can’t give me anything that predicts its self, through out extremely long periods of years in exact accuracy

    Atomic clocks.
    You need help.

  85. Luis Lopez says

    Nice, breaking my words appart to prove me wrong. Just like comment 35 says.The term “second coming” is this. He came to earth once like old testament prophets predicted.. What Jesus refers to as his second coming TO EARTH, to us. Like he came the first time to earth. Which hasn’t happened yet. Appearing to his apostales after rising from the dead, on the third day is not a second coming to mankind. It’s simply coming to his apostles to show them that he is god, and he ressurected the power of death. telling them to preach his truth. That very same jesus is available to me and you. And is willing to know you. Heal you. Like he knew them. Having an actual relationship with the creator of this universe and that’s a bold statement saying. There is a creator.

  86. EnlightenmentLiberal says

    Again, why should we believe you when others have been making the same claims for the entire 2000 year history of Christianity? You don’t offer anything new. It’s literally the exact same shit. What makes you think you’re so special that you got it right this time that Jesus is coming back soon, when literally millions of Christians got it wrong constantly over the course of 2000 years? This is just one of the most ludicrous claims that you could possibly make, and I’m even including young Earth creationism as a comparison.

  87. says

    Luis @110.

    You’re missing the point.

    You dishonestly used jesus rising 3 days after the crucifixion to account for his saying he would return in his disciples lifetimes when that quote refers to the second coming.
    You’re now dishonestly arguing that we somehow don’t understand what the second coming is.

    That is what you literally can’t have both ways…literally.

  88. Curt Cameron says

    Luis Lopez wrote:

    Your irrefutable proof is that 3=1….What is water, vapor and ice? It’s exactly what John 5:7-8 is…

    You must not be aware that this verse in the Bible (it’s 1 John, by the way, not John) was added later, in the middle ages? It wasn’t in the original Bible. In fact, modern translations (RSV, NIV) leave that verse out.

  89. StonedRanger says

    @hippycow #95
    No. Please don’t do that. You don’t speak for me at the very least. I understand youre trying to make a sarcastic point, but no, I don’t accept anyone ever to be my savior.
    Kthxbye

  90. StonedRanger says

    @Louis lopez
    I have an amputated finger. Will jesus magically make it grow back if I accept him as my personal savior? At the time I had my finger amputated, I was saved. How come jesus let me get a finger cut off? Just so he could heal it? When is he going to get around to that? I mean come on, its been 41 years since it happened. I know jesus is busy ( I checked his schedule) but 41 years is an awful long time, don’t you agree?
    Now, doesn’t that sound just about like the most silly thing you ever heard? That’s what you sound like this whole thread.

  91. Hippycow says

    @EL: “…the same message that Jesus is coming any day now, for 2,000 years…” — using like units make it even more clear: “…the same message that Jesus is coming any day now, for more than 733,000 days…”

    Considering that Matthew 26:26-28 says:
    For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

    The prediction is wrong even if Jesus appears on a flying white unicorn in the clouds today.

    By the way EL, I can’t condone your use of the word “literally.” You have cogent and well-expressed insights, but you’ve got to give that poor abused word a break. It means the opposite of figuratively, so “It’s literally the exact same shit” would only be a correct usage in a scatological context, not in this eschatological one (though I think we can agree the there’s a fine line between the two). 😉

  92. Hippycow says

    @ StonedRanger #115: don’t panic, it is obviously exactly the opposite of true, which is the point I was trying to convey.

  93. Luis Lopez says

    an atomic clock can’t and has never predicted our very own history. The bible well it has. How can you explain the bible predicting exact world kingdoms and events? Not to mention I find it silly how you’re not coming at me with your truth. Instead a disection of my truth like I said in comment 35 you would do. And no Jesus came to earth and physically lived here (once) and will do it again a (second) time. His resurrection and appearance to his desiples is not him (physically living on earth) and while I have to agree with you that Christians have been saying that for YEARS!(you can’t blame them, uhh Hitler) for example was thought to be the antichrist. But his second coming can’t happen until other prophecies come first. For example Israel becoming a nation, which the bible predicted and happened in the 1900s. it doesn’t change the fact that his physical second coming is coming. And when he does it will be from the clouds. This is just 1 prophecy of many many many other prophecies that have already been fulfilled. Not to mention the bible has a perfect record of prophecies and fulfillments. Again from the time the littleral writers literally wrote them Down at their given life time. Your arguments, nor the word “atheist” can exist with out. YOU feeding off my truth. You can’t argue with me without carefully reading through my words in an attempt to find fault. Which is rather elementary. Give me your truth not your dissection of my truth please…

  94. Narf says

    Heh, holy shit, guys. I stopped paying attention to this particular comment section for a while, and look at the mess you guys have made. 🙁

    Yeah, this Luis guy isn’t worth talking to, except within a one-on-one situation, in which you can stop him and demand that he explain what the fuck the wild assertion he just made even means, how he arrived at that statement, and why we should take it seriously. Give him an actual text box, and he fires off more unsupported, insane shit than Duane Gish … but less coherent, delivered in a solid block of text.

    Someone like this can’t be dealt with, without a mute button, I think. I don’t think he understands how to construct a logical syllogism, and he expresses disdain at the idea of breaking things down and examining his claims. If he isn’t a troll, he’s an idiot.

  95. says

    Luis @119
    So you agree that jesus got it wrong when he said that some of his disciples would not taste death?

    In reply to your comments that we just take apart your assertions… you need to understand the burden of proof. We don’t believe in your god. You need to prove your case. Despite what you might have been told, atheists are open to evidence.

    My final question to you is this…why don’t the Jewish scholars agree with your assessment of the prophecies made in their holy book?

  96. Luis Lopez says

    Taste death? We all die, moses dead, buddah dead, Darwin dead, Peter, Mathew, mark luke John. All dead. Jesus. Died…. But three days later. Rose from the dead. Because he is god. The father son(Jesus) holy spirit are all one. Trinity.

  97. Narf says

    I prefer to form my worldview based upon things more reliable than Grimm’s Fairy-tales, myself.

  98. Luis Lopez says

    Jews don’t agree. Because that very same book, the bible. Says that his own people would not receive him(jesus). The evidence is all in the bible it’s self. You claim to be open to evidence but can’t open a book to search for the very evidence in itself. Evidence is the proven dates in which each book in the bible was written, and how earlier books would predict events happening in later books written thousands of years in the future. you be open to that simple evidence that you can scientifically, mathematically calculate the date in which each book from earlier books going into later books (genesis psalms kings , Daniel, Isaiah, John, Mathew, mark Luke, Corinthians, revelation) ECT were written in extremely long periods of streached out time. Yet somehow predict its self

  99. Narf says

    The evidence is all in the bible it’s self.

    The claims are in the Bible itself. A bunch of stories written down thousands of years ago, by a bunch of ignorant, superstitious people, are not evidence. Never have been; never will be.

    You don’t understand how to do the most basic evaluation of claims.

  100. Narf says

    Besides, you’re aware that the stories about Jesus were written down decades after the supposed events in the stories, right? There was plenty of time to embellish upon the events significantly, assuming that they’re even based upon a real person. Then, the stories were collected by anonymous authors and written down.

    And the New Testament was written after the Old Testament. The stories were written in such a way that they made it look like Jesus had fulfilled all sorts of prophesies, and there’s no corroboration for any of the events in the stories, outside of the Bible.

    Even with that, they got a lot of crap wrong. A lot of the prophesies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled aren’t even prophesies. The writers of the Gospels were desperate to try to match Jesus up to the stories about a messiah, to the point of going way too far and making it look horribly forced. That’s why most Jews rejected the stories about Jesus, because he didn’t fit the prophesies.

  101. says

    @Luis 123

    Yes. Every one of the disciples died.
    Before the second coming.

    It’s almost as if you ha7ve a pathological need to miss points.

    And yes – Narf clearly understood and points you to WHY the Jewish scholars don’t agree with you. It’s not because jesus prophecied it, but because the new testament writers didn’t crowbar jesus into the existing prophesies quite well enough.

    It’s the easiest thing, for a rebellious rabble-rousing anti-establishment rabbi, to predict that the existing leaders might not agree with you…

    I prophesy that you will not agree with me on everything I’ve written here.

    Mark this post number – just like your oft-quoted 35, this is the birth of a new prophet…

  102. ironchops says

    Welcome back! I like Tracie’s smile. She seems beautifully spirited. I like Matt too. I like all of them!

    All families have various stresses caused by outside influences. Religious, Political, financial and Societal seem to be the core of the problems. Ultimately, any child that rejects their parent’s up-bringing/values take a chance of disappointing their parents. It’s a sad fact.

    The 2 biggest reasons that I have noticed (in my little world) that caused that type of treatment are 1. Coming out Homo-sexual and 2. Inter-racial dating/schmarrage. The only time I have ever seen any parent actually turn their back on their kid came from my friend, who is a hard atheist, disowned his son for coming out gay (go figure). The whole family fell apart! I lost a lot of respect for him because of that but I remain friends with all of them and see them quite often. I party with his son all the time! I also party with him 2 or 3 times a month. But never with both at the same time. I personally think he is an ass on this. Life is too short for this type of BS!

    I have seen another family I know have massive fights over their oldest daughter because she didn’t want to go to college. Her family comes from old money and they fancy themselves as high southern society. Everyone in that family is expected to attend college. She is the only one that didn’t so she was disinherited. No one in this family attend any sort of church that I know of but yet they call themselves believers, for what that’s worth.

    It seems there is no set rule on this. It would be interesting to try to develop a poll or data base to compare this across all the various demographics. What breaks up families the most?

    Caller 3 Ben, Any religion can be used as a tool to manipulate people but the leaders of these groups probably don’t care. They have their own agenda. Bruit force and fear are other ways to subjugate people.
    Caller 4 Emily, It would seem that some sort of a secular replacement for church could help. Call it “schmurch” for Matt. A place where likeminded people can gather to create and promote positive support groups and activities to help the community. Develop a non-profit organization that mirror “church” in most respects dumping all the theistic baggage. That would be better than some sort of “step” program I would think. I might even quit church and go there if that existed.

  103. kudlak says

    @Luis Lopez
    I have no trouble with the likelihood of a Jew named Yeshua living around that time, having a following that believed he was the Messiah because there are other examples of such guys. I have no problem with him being crucified as a potential threat to Roman rule because the Romans crucified a hell of a lot of people, but that caused a problem for his followers because Jewish scripture clearly says that the awaited Messiah would accomplish everything prophesied about him within his lifetime. There is no concept of the Messiah having to come back a second time because he is described as being just a mortal man.

    That doesn’t seem to have discouraged Jesus’ followers any, however, because they continued to believe that he had been the Messiah. I have no trouble with the likelihood then that they poured over scripture looking for ways to justify this belief. Notably, they saw Jesus in the “Suffering Servant” of Isaiah chapter 53, but they goofed up because that section actually refers to the nation of Israel. Other scenes in the gospels, like where Jesus’ garments are gambled over, appear to actually be copied from scripture and don’t even come close to being told as from anyone actually there. It seems very likely to me that many details could have been added to Jesus’ life afterwards to help support the belief that he was the Messiah.

  104. says

    WOW, what a gigantic response to a meaningless wall of text, or should I say, wall of gobbledygook!

    I am a very vane person, and I want a huge response! Next time I will take any of Nietzsche’s books, and copy-paste one of every 5 sentences, just so I get more than 20 responses. I had a point I wanted to share, and I forgot it after 70 comments on Luis’ blabber.

  105. Hippycow says

    So Jesus rose after three days? What day was that? Saturday (named after the other god, Saturn)? Sunday? Monday? Thursday (named after another god, Thor)? What was the date? Did the sun go dark for three hours? Was there an earthquake? Did all the bodies of many holy people who had died also rise up from their graves and walk the streets? Is there any corroboration of any of these claims from contemporary histories (of whom there are many who wrote copious material about other important events of the same time and place, but not these clearly momentous happenings).

    Was it before sunrise as Mark and Matthew say, or after sunrise after Luke (and apparently John, though he is more vague) says? What time was it, exactly? This is important information, we should have some precision.

    How many women discovered Jesus? Was it Mary Magdalene and another Mary? Was it just Mary Magdalene? Did the women tell nobody, or did they tell the disciples?

    Did Jesus then meet two of the disciples or eleven of them or some other number of them? Was it in Galilee ? Or did he meet two disciples on the road to Emmaus where they fail to recognize him, but he appears again to eleven of them in Jerusalem? Or did he appear to the apostles for 40 days, giving many proofs that he was alive and instructing them not to leave Jerusalem until they were baptized? Generally, was Jesus reject the idea of giving “proofs” or embrace it? (please cite your sources).

    By the way, bonus question (don’t cheat and google it!): who was the “beloved disciple?”

    Which story are you going with, Luis? Or which combination of these would you like to synchrotize together into a whole new narrative? That seems to be the more popular eschatological method.

    In sum, stop spouting vague and unsupported generalities. Back up each claim you make with supporting evidence. Be honest and cite evidence that counters your claims to. Get real. Be honest. It is scary, but good for you.

  106. Hippycow says

    @moi #133: Whoops, a few typos to fix (as usual):

    Was it before sunrise as Mark and Matthew say, or after sunrise after Luke (and apparently John, though he is more vague) says?
    Was it before sunrise as Mark and Matthew say, or was it after sunrise as Luke (and apparently John, though he is more vague) says?

    Generally, was Jesus reject the idea of giving “proofs” or embrace it? (please cite your sources).
    Generally, does Jesus reject the idea of giving “proofs” or does he embrace it? (please cite your sources).

    Be honest and cite evidence that counters your claims to.
    Be honest and cite evidence that counters your claims too.

  107. Narf says

    @131 – kudlak

    There is no concept of the Messiah having to come back a second time because he is described as being just a mortal man.

    That’s one of the big problems with the retcon job that Christians did on the Jewish scriptures. The messiah was supposed to be just a guy, who earned his messiah-ship through the actions of his life, not through some inborn quality. The messiah was supposed to be a warrior-king who would throw off the oppression of the Jews, once and for all.

    Hell, a lot of the ‘prophesies’ held up by Christians are completely banal. “The messiah will be born of a woman.” NO! IT’LL NEVER HAPPEN!

    Come on, seriously. I  fulfilled that prophesy.

    A lot of the other prophesies aren’t even prophesies. The suffering servant prophesy was from a poem, marked in no way as a prophesy, and the passage that they read as a prophesy wasn’t even referring to a coming messiah.

  108. Narf says

    @132 – Andres Villarreal

    I am a very vane person, and I want a huge response!

    I’ll be sure to pull up a random website and post the entire contents into a response, the next time you make a point. Just for you, man.

    Or did you mean that you want a lot of wind, the next time you say something, since you’re a vane? 😀

  109. kudlak says

    @Narf
    Yeah, like I said, the Suffering Servant is Israel. Its plain that its not Jesus because one of the lines in chapter 53 has to do with (Israel) having children. Convenient how Christians always seem to skip over that part, eh?

    Maybe one of the things that made this possible was that the Christian Jews stopped going to synagogue, and more and more gentiles converted, bringing their idea of what being a “Son of God” meant. They were use to demigods like Hercules actually being fathered by a god and Emperors claiming the title for themselves, so they probably just misunderstood the Jewish use of the term referring to someone with a special relationship with God. That includes Adam, the kings of Israel, angels, and a bunch of other guys as well as Jesus. Lots just got mixed up in the translation from Jewish to gentile, and then it all just took on a life of its own.

  110. Narf says

    Heh, yeah, I had only read the first paragraph of your post, when I fired off that response. I didn’t see you go there until after I’d hit Post Comment.

  111. says

    Atheist Experience #258 – incorrect episode #.

    [Yes, I know this thread is for the latest (?) episode – but I can’t find the thread for episode #258.]

    In case any of the show admins read this, the video listed in the show archive as being for episode #258 is actually #259. The date for episode #258 is given as 22/09/02 – but in the actual footage shown in the video the date is given as ‘9/29/02’, and Ashley Perrien states the date as being 29 September 2002 (which is the date for episode #259).

    If someone could correct this in the show archive, as well as other places (eg YouTube), that would be great. I would have commented on the video itself, but comments are disabled.

    Thanks for uploading all those OLD shows, very interesting to see the development of the show through the years! 🙂

    Philip

  112. valendr0s says

    Oh dear… The caller with the Kalam…

    Wow – he was annoying. “Can I finish?!? Can I finish?” Finish what? Repeating yourself for the 300th time? Finish forcing your subject into the line of your ‘logic trap’ script?

    It’s VERY simple here, guy. We. Don’t. Know. And neither do you. Your supposition that your 3 options are relevant is speculation without a single shred of evidence. So they’re irrelevant. We might as well be saying, “What is more likely? That there are 4000 angels on the head of the pin or 50?” You’re speaking nonsense, plain and simple.

    Russell’s analogy isn’t the best, so I’ll try to clean it up a bit with a bit of a different concept.

    You’re in Ancient Greece, around the time of Plato and with similar knowledge set. Which is more likely, that the fundamental structure of the universe is built from particles called atoms that each contain protons and electrons and usually neutrons. That these particles are further broken down into quarks of various types. And that the further down this chain you go, the more the universe is dictated by probability and chance and the less the universe is solid and unchanging.

    Quantum Mechanics to Plato is insane. There’s no way he could have ever remotely considered the possibility given his knowledge of the universe at the time. Quantum Mechanics wouldn’t be on his ‘list of 3 possibilities’. And let’s say that it was by some miracle of chance that he thought it up and included it in his options, would it have been the ‘most reasonable’ or ‘most logical’ of the options?

    FUCK NO. It wouldn’t have been. And there’s no way without modern tools and building on the shoulders of those who came after Plato would we even be able to consider it, let alone prove it to be so completely true.

    So why are you wasting your time forcing people into three options that you have no idea how possible they are, let alone how likely they are.

    I say that the chances that Plato could have guessed that Quantum Mechanics was possible AND the most likely physical system of the universe is the same chances that you have any of the ‘options’ for the first cause on your list in the first place. Stop trying to come up with solutions to problems you can’t even consider the options for. If we do find the answer, it will likely be something you’d never even consider – and something you won’t believe without immense evidence.