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Aug 31 2013

I don’t want to be “one of the good ones”

A long-awaited companion piece for Heina.

If you’ve ever favorably contrasted me against other trans people or atheists or queer folks or anyone else like me, just because I’ve been quiet when they’ve been outspoken in the face of wrongdoing, or I was overly patient and indulgent of ignorance when they’ve been rightfully terse: fuck you.

Stop it. I don’t want your support or approval. I am not on your side. I am not one of you. I want to be like them – not like you. I don’t want to be one of your “good ones”.

I’ll define this type of situation by way of example. A few months back, I was mentioned on Anton A. Hill’s blog in a list of several people with whom he’d recently had productive conversations on issues like feminism and trans stuff. In my case, this was because I happened to be in a friendly mood when he asked me a question that involved the phrase “born w/ a peepee”.

This was just one instance of a pattern that was repeated throughout the post: his surprise that his criticism of Freethought Blogs as a whole was handled calmly by NonStampCollector, or that a member of Secular Woman “respected” his “right to disagree with her” on issues of feminism (as if how people regard a man’s opinion of feminism is in any way connected to individual rights and freedoms), or that Marisa Gallego “maintained politeness” when he “downright called her on her shit” in their discussion of trans matters.

I’ll ask you to take a moment and think about which of these people you expect I’d be more inclined to align myself with – him, or the people who graciously “maintained politeness” when addressing his “born w/ a peepee”-level views on these issues.

Reading this post made me rather suspicious of what he was aiming to convey. As I found out by the end, it was nothing good: he capped it all off with vague criticism of fellow FTBer Ophelia Benson, and how his experiences with her had led him to suspect that all our conversations would descend into a “vicious, name-calling flame war”. We were the good ones… so who were the bad ones? In his estimation, she was.

I don’t agree with this at all. I don’t want to be used as a plank of someone’s argument in their ongoing grudge against FTB or Ophelia or Jen or Greta or Stephanie or Rebecca or Amy or any of the other women in the community who’ve continually stood up against harassment and threats. I don’t want to be an example cited by someone who thinks silence, or meek civility, is a norm we should all aspire to when faced with this. No – I would want such a person to know that I am not on their side here. I am not going to agree with them. I am not going to be complicit in being set apart from admirable and resilient people who have faced down this kind of abuse.

Does anyone really, honestly expect that my views come anywhere near “yeah, screw Ophelia for not suffering fools gladly! I’m with ya, buddy!”?

tumblr_mqx54pc6wh1sx5c51o1_500

This happened again after I was recently on TV to discuss the Chelsea Manning case, trans people in the US military, and access to transition care for trans inmates. Another blogger, Nelson Garcia, said I was “doing a stellar job explaining why it’s important for that person formerly known as Bradley to receive hormone therapy while she serves out her time.”

Much-appreciated praise – were it not surrounded by use of the word “tranny” (which he believes is a measured response to use of “the cis word”). Also, the claim that trans women “are just men who’ve deluded themselves and others into believing they’re women”. And the use of “he” in reference to a well-known trans woman activist. And – yes, he actually did this – nitpicking about the particular kind of surgeries she’s had, and calling this a “con” to have her identity documents updated. Oh, and then he called her a “media whore”.

I mean, holy shit.

Do you think I ever, at any point, would want a person like this to tell me I’m “doing a stellar job”? Does their judgment seem to be of such quality that I should even want to be on their good side?

Nothing I’ve ever done makes me any better than the other trans women he’s insulted and personally attacked in ways that are egregious and invasive even by the usual transphobe standards. And nothing I’ve done makes me better than, say, women on Twitter who just plain don’t feel like educating people from scratch on things like trans stuff and sexism. That’s their prerogative and it’s perfectly valid – it doesn’t make them any worse than me. Not everyone is always, or ever, inclined to get into it with people who are potentially hostile to the very foundations of their equality as human beings. We’re not all equipped to confront that every day, or any day. We shouldn’t have to be, and we shouldn’t be seen as any worse for not wanting to do so.

When what I say is used to fuel some expectation that we should all be unfailingly kind and patient in the face of nonsense, I don’t feel good about that. It’s not something I want my words to be used for at all, and such approval is not something I seek. When they try to separate us into “good ones” and “bad ones” based on how agreeable they find us, it’s often my friends who are considered the “bad ones”. And I know who I’d rather be with.

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  1. 1
    Natasha

    Your own eloquence is working against you, Even when you are forcefully hammering home a point as you did on CNN the fact you aren’t screaming at them keeps them from realizing just how thoroughly your tearing them apart. Because you’re not ranting like a Glenn Beck or Bill O’Reilly they can’t see just hoe passionate and forceful you are.

    Take it form someone who doesn’t just play a angry trans women on twitter biut who is an angry trans woman you’re not one of the ‘good ones’, you are one of us.

  2. 2
    Maureen Brian

    Thanks for that.

    Will they grasp it? Probably not! When I was in high school we had it drummed into us that we each had a duty to inform ourself. An awful lot of people now seem to what that replaced with a duty to pacify them.

    Glad you exposed such nonsense!

  3. 3
    oolon

    Holy crap, what the fuck is wrong with Anton? He had one little exchange with Ophelia on Twitter where she directed him to her blog for evidence that the Slymepit is full of misogyny. This wasn’t good enough for him and he pressed and pressed and wouldn’t give up. I think she eventually told him to “fuck off” or other similarly not that rude a response. I spent an age trying to explain to him that he is not entitled to anyones time to explain things to him, the evidence is there for him to look at. He then went on to make a 1/2-1hr video on this little Twitter exchange with Ophelia and obsess over it. I didn’t realise he went on this crusade to find “good” FTB’ers as well.

    Worst thing is these people calls themselves “rational” and “freethinkers” … Its quite clear that someones tone is totally irrelevant to the truth of their claims or worthiness of their cause. Its irrational to go looking for people who will politely say the same thing. Otherwise his feels are hurt and he cannot stand against misogyny or transphobia unless those being oppressed are nice to him. Pathetic.

    QFT

    Not everyone is always, or ever, inclined to get into it with people who are potentially hostile to the very foundations of their equality as human beings. We’re not all equipped to confront that every day, or any day. We shouldn’t have to be, and we shouldn’t be seen as any worse for not wanting to do so.

  4. 4
    A Hermit

    For what it’s worth, I think of you as one brave badass.

    And now I’m going to shut up and listen some more…

  5. 5
    The Nerd

    My experiences align much more with Heina’s, not being a very visible figure, and even still there are those people who try to put me in the Good Ones box and expect me to rejoice. The people who message me on Facebook with “so I had a question…” and then as soon as I respond to their dilemma about “feminism vs gender” (or somesuch nonsense) with a sound bite they can use as a weapon against the other side, they pat me on the head for being so useful and run off. Or the people who tell me I’m “doing genderqueer so much better than X person” who just so happens to be my friend and is even standing right across the room, I kind of want to be a Bad One so I can have better company.

  6. 6
    Rey Fox

    “I’m not your friend, buddy!”

  7. 7
    Abdul Alhazred

    One of the “good ones”?

    How about one of the great ones?
    Thanks. ;)

  8. 8
    Patrick Doss

    love this and totally agree. I have had similar cases when discussing my atheism among christians and they are surprised at how “civil and calm I can express my views.” By doing so, they completely miss the point of the entire conversation. I have also thought and love how you express so beautifully my aggravation towards such comments.

    You are great. Keep it up

  9. 9
    Neeley Fluke

    When they call me “one of the good ones” it gives me a full-body cringe. They think its some kind of compliment, like they are giving us a Scooby snack and a pat on the head. That little voice in my head immediately tells me to say something incredibly offensive to them, like “spermjacking NEVER happens” just so they will exclude me from their party.

  10. 10
    ekwhite

    Thank you. You are quite an eloquent writer. I totally agree. Being patient and eloquent is a good thing. Too bad these people don’t understand the difference between patience and agreement.

  11. 11
    Ophelia Benson

    Yeah, I’m eeeeeeevil because I got impatient with Anton Hill’s trolling me on Twitter. That’s the worst thing in the universe.

    1. 11.1
      prodegtion

      Dear Ophelia Benson,

      I see you have already blocked me on your blog, for making the following comment on your post entitled “Rape Culture Friday”:

      “So basically what you’re saying is, you don’t actually need evidence to support your beliefs. It figures.”

      and you made that pretty crystal clear in your latest post about thunderf00t, too. Yeah, grapevine rumors are real reliable. Good to see you’ve honed your skepticism and critical reasoning skills.

      That was not in ANY way a troll comment; it was nothing more than an apt summary of your argument. But yeah, deleting the comment and blocking me is always the wittiest comeback.

      Fuck you, cunt. I hope someone rapes you and tears you a new one.

      1. F [is for failure to emerge]

        Wow, what a piece of work you are. Fuck you, you disgusting piece of shit.

      2. jeremysalleng

        Yeah i can’t even imagine why she would block you. You seem like the epitome of civility. In the very likely chance you don’t understand, this is sarcasm.

        1. prodegtion

          Why would you EVER block someone?

          1. jeremysalleng

            Because trolls like you deserve to be banned. You add nothing to the conversation. And as soon as you meet even the slightest opposition to your views you say things like this…”Fuck you, cunt. I hope someone rapes you and tears you a new one.” Scum like you do not deserve civility or a platform from which to spew such vileness.

          2. prodegtion

            I add plenty to the conversation. I highlight the nature and importance of freedom of speech, skepticism. and critical thinking.

      3. Zoe

        Wow, maybe you should turn it down a little. If you just start cussing right off the bat, nobody’s going to take you seriously. If you actually want your concerns addressed, you need to have a little patience and explain it to us. You aren’t going to convince anyone with this attitude. Honey and vinegar, you know.

        1. prodegtion

          I speak the truth. If people don’t want to hear the truth, that’s their problem, not mine. The only thing that matters to me is truth.

          1. Anthony K

            You’re delusional.

            It’s simply the truth.

            I speak the truth.

            Patently false. You’re much too lazy in your writing to be precise and thoughtful enough to even approximate a claim like that.

            If people don’t want to hear the truth, that’s their problem, not mine.

            That’s exactly what I’m talking about. A simple assertion with vague terminology is relatively meaningless. What kind of problem? To whom? You’re the one whining about being blocked, so clearly your ‘truth speaking’ is causing you some sort of problem. So, you’re at least that wrong, where you can be said to be saying anything at all.

            (And don’t even ask if I’m unaware you’re using a colloquialism; of course you are. But colloquialisms, as formulaic generalisations, are by their nature not ‘truth-speaking’. They’re far too imprecise.)

            The only thing that matters to me is truth.

            Really? Because it’s obvious hyperbole is a big interest of yours too. Fuck man, you’re not even trying.

            *Do I really need to mention the all-caps? Chances are I probably do, but I’ll let you puzzle out what that often means in terms of human behaviour on your own, Champ.

          2. prodegtion

            A statement’s precision and thoughtfulness has no bearing whatsoever on its truth.

            And your spiel about my use of the English language just proves you are not a scientist. Again, it’s not how you say something which is important; it’s what you say. And that’s even if you use hyperbole.

            And I don’t even type with all caps; I sometimes use caps to emphasize a word.

          3. prodegtion

            You’re probably an English major or something.

          4. Anthony K

            A statement’s precision and thoughtfulness has no bearing whatsoever on its truth.

            ‘A thing happened.’

            By gosh, you’re right!

            You’re probably an English major or something.

            Yeah, here’s a thing that’s true: generally English majors aren’t actually affected by comments like that. It’s a funny thing, how humans tend to be so good at justifying what they do, no matter what it is. One would think you’d be aware of that, all interested in the truth as you claim you are.

            Anyway, Bayesian priors suggest to me that rejection and inadequate attention are significant themes in your life. If that’s the case, then I apologise: bye.

      4. jodyp

        Thank you, Ms. Benson, for carrying on in the face of people like this.

  12. 12
    Brandon Fontaine

    As a cis gendered heterosexual male combat Marine Veteran I would like to applaud your courage and tenacity to be willing to stand by Chelsea Manning. She never should have even been caught or broken the way she was. She did the right thing and I only wish I had YOUR or HER courage to be there and say it.

    1. 12.1
      RainbowSlushie^.^

      Thanks for the support Brandon, and I quite agree with your assessment =~)

  13. 13
    Deoridhe

    I hate being used as a tool to insult other people. I had a (now ex-) friend once complain to me about how vapid and unintelligent a few women near him were because they were obsessed with things he considered unimportant, so he was so glad he could talk to me, an actual intelligent woman, and well… my response is why he is an EX-friend.

  14. 14
    F [is for failure to emerge]

    Yeah, not cool. How very demeaning: “You seem to know your place, why is it the others do not?”

    You are good. Just not “good” in the way, e.g., Anton would have it.

  15. 15
    Rieux

    “The cis word”? Seriously? Why would anyone consider that offensive? (Even in a controversial line like “Die cis scum,” it’s not the middle word that prompts complaints, right?)

    But thanks from me, too, Zinnia, for demonstrating how an advocate can be (relatively) non-confrontational without selling out her more-confrontational allies.

    1. 15.1
      Sassafras

      Trans-haters seriously dislike that there’s a term for non-trans people besides “normal”, so they have decided that since a lot of uses of “cis” involve trans people talking about awful shit cis people do to them, that “cis” is a slur. Some have also taken to spreading false etymologies of “cis” to claim that it has negative meanings (like claiming it comes from “cide” and thus means it’s calling all cis people homicidal). At the heart of it, they just don’t want anything, even language, to put cis and trans people on even footing.

  16. 16
    CaitieCat, in no way a robot nosireebot

    Yeah. All of it.

    When I was in Thailand, I met a couple who were staying at the same hotel. I kinda hit it off as a friend with the woman, and one night were sitting in their room, talking about things, when her (male) partner began throwing around the word “feminazis”. I said I didn’t want to hear it again, and if I did, I would leave.

    He said, and she backed him up, nodding, that they “didn’t mean like you, but, y’know, feminazis, like those kind of castrating man-hating bitches like Audre Lorde. You’re one of the good kind.”

    As I was leaving, about three seconds later, I mentioned that I wasn’t sure whether it was the misogyny or the racism that I thought was worse, but that it hardly seemed to matter, as they appeared well-supplied with both. I may also have added something about invading Poland, and how we hadn’t.

    Fuck being one of the “good ones”. I’m right there being one of the “bad” ones, as long as there’s a need for social justice activists at all.

  17. 17
    RainbowSlushie^.^

    LOL@ ‘one of the good ones’

    I don’t think I’ve ever been called one of the good ones, but since it’s such a common conversational ploy that gets used in many different ways, hilariously absurd (usually) even, I’m sure I’ll get called that one of these days.

    It’s just…I dunno…people just get this feeling when they’re around me of all this stuff under the surface, almost as if they told me I was one of the good ones I would slap them until I knocked their teeth down their throat, then walk away smiling, saying “thank you so much, that made my day, yep, i’m one of the good ones now!”. Not that I ever would, but people just get that feeling in the pit of their stomach: something’s not right, this person won’t take this backhand lying down. It’s hilarious to put terror in the part of poor little transphobic assholes, the REAL VICTIMS, OF COURSE, HAHAHA. I WILL ALWAYS ABIDE BY THE PATARIARCHY. I WILL ALWAYS ABIDE BY THE PATRIARCHY. /gets out a chainsaw and saws off a transphobes head. I WILL ALWAYS ABIDE BY THE PATRIARCHY, YE HOLY TRANSPHOBIC DUDEBROS. I WILL ALWAYS ABIDE….trails off into maniacal laughter.

    Sorry where was I? I approve of this article! =)

  18. 18
    RainbowSlushie^.^

    It’s hilarious to put terror in the part of poor little transphobic assholes

    should have read:

    It’s hilarious to put terror in the HEART of poor little transphobic assholes

    Also, this movie clip sums up my previous post regarding patriarchial jerks of all sorts:

  19. 19
    tiberiusbeauregard

    What a long-winded explanation why she wants to hang with the naughty kids. Why didn’t she just say “I want to be cool” ?

    Well, we’ll see how far it’ll get her… civility is held in high regard by civilised people because it’s a question of character. You have it or you don’t. I wonder if she really wants to end up like the other scallywags she mentioned…

  20. 20
    RainbowSlushie^.^

    What a long-winded explanation why she wants to hang with the naughty kids. Why didn’t she just say “I want to be cool” ?

    Well, we’ll see how far it’ll get her… civility is held in high regard by civilised people because it’s a question of character. You have it or you don’t. I wonder if she really wants to end up like the other scallywags she mentioned…

    Yeah yeah, people can imply all kinds of asshole things under the name of “civility”, that’s how oppression works right? You just be a super polite asshole to people, oppressing them as well in the process or adding to it, and then when they tell you to f-off, of course you’re in the wrong.

    Privileged jerk.

    People have gone up and politely asked transgender people “Hey, I’m sorry you got your penis cut off!” Not a single swear word. Such people have been told to fuck off too, and their reply, while involving cursewords, was entirely appropriate.

    The simple fact you think of civility in terms of people being able to say extremely cruel things but oppressed people can’t reply back with any cursewords, just shows you’re the savage. Who says savagely cruel things in polite ways and then pretends somehow they’re not being a cruel asshole because they’re playing the ‘civil game’? Not me, that’s for sure asshole.

    Oh and fuck you, get the fuck out of this thread you piece of shit.

    1. 20.1
      tiberiusbeauregard

      You are talking about politeness, I am talking about civility.

      Civility lets you say things you couldn’t normally say without escalating a situation.
      Civility lets you feed ideas to people, despite their hostility towards your general position.
      Civility will provide sufficient safe space for anyone to re-consider his position without humiliation.
      Civility doesn’t burn bridges.

      But maybe that’s not what you want, maybe you want to escalate, hate and humiliate… in that case however, you will be shunned by the civil parts of any society you live in… I wonder if you thought this through, such decisions can have serious consequences.

      1. RainbowSlushie^.^

        Um, no, that’s actually not how it works. The point of shunning is transphobia, it has nothing to do with civility; that’s the excuse behind it. People politely tell us transphobic things, politely tell us we have entire identities we don’t have, and then impolitely call us names like tranny, while insisting they are being polite and civil, and then shun us when we tell them to fuck off for being assholes. People hide behind ‘civility’ all the time; the argument you’re using is the basic oppressor’s argument: we have the right to shun you if we perpetrate bigotry onto you and you don’t like it; if we are polite, citing civility, but extremely cruel, you will abide this cruelty or more will be given to you, if we are impolite and cruel, you will only answer with as much impoliteness as we give you even though the impact is not the same on us as it is on you.

        I think you haven’t thought this through tiberius: I don’t care to associate with transphobes like you that sit here and threaten cruelty on people, shunning or not. You don’t have access to my body, you don’t have my frienship, and it is my mission in life to make the lives of cruel privileged transphobes like you, totally miserable. My sole mission, if you haven’t noticed. So you and the rest of your privileged bros go right on shunning, I wouldn’t care to associate with you anyway. People use polite cruelty to say extremely cruel things and try to get away with it using the mask of ‘civility’ when the reality is they’re just being polite bigots, and nothing more.

        I don’t want to escalate and hate and in fact you’re doing both of those things, so you shouldn’t come in this thread and threaten Lauren with shunning or ‘other consequences’ as you indirectly specified here. Threatening me with ‘shunning’ or other consequences means absolutely nothing to me, in the slighest even. You’re nothing but a privileged thug, a bigot, and a bully. Go back to your privileged friends.

      2. RainbowSlushie^.^

        Also, LOL@ you will be shunned by the civil parts of any society you live in

        Bigots shun disprivileged people they dislike all the time, even when they’re perfectly polite and civil, simply becqause they’re privileged bigots. The consequence for being uncivil to partially civil bigots for being transgender is actually pretty low, but a moron like you wouldn’t realize that right? In your idiotic brain, magically you’re not making any threats to anyone, when in reality you have made several in your post here, threatened another transwoman (I am transwoman too) and now threatened me. You’re the one barging in here acting like a high and mighty asshole.

        My job in life is to become as sexy and desirable as possible, blueball everyone, and then bat the brains (metaphorically, physically too if thugs like you try to rape me) out of people like you ruthlessly if you so much as come within an inch of me in a way I don’t approve of, after shunning me for years. I hope I’ve made myself abundantly clear, because morons like you aren’t ever getting close to me in anyway. Just sayin’. Also, I was shunned for years while perfectly civil to many bigots, long before I ever transitioned, for being PoC, Autistic, lower class, and disabled. Perfectly polite, perfectly civil, on purpose even, just to prove to myself, after being perfectly civil and polite, for years, that it was totally meaningless.

        People like you are a transphobic joke. I don’t think you understand something: people like you are not my friend, I am not here to be nice to you, and privileged shitstains like you will get what’s coming to you for your assholery from Society as it becomes less transphobic, make no mistake.

      3. RainbowSlushie^.^

        Finally, lol@shunning again: I was trained in a group of hermits: Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, and lived for eight years in severe isolation, long before I ever got away from the cult. I am well trained to endure shunning by ‘civil’ assholes and bigots, for years on end, simply because they’re bigots.

        It’s been two and a half years now I’ve been shunned by transphobes and five years now I’ve been shunned in general (three years being totally civil to the bigots).

        I’m not breaking a sweat yet…..You and your patriarchy bros suck if you think shunning will do anything to someone like me; traumatize me, sure, it traumatizes me, traumatizes everyone, but you can’t break someone like me, in the slightest. You’re only building well earned hatred for your cruelty: you and those like you.

        1. RainbowSlushie^.^

          Also to clarify further, TFP shunned me heavily within their group, hiding under the mask of civility, again, because I did things I ‘wasn’t supposed’ to do: like cuss, or smoke cigarettes (I’ve since quit) or drink heavily from time to time, or play computer games.

          I was shunned in TFP also for having original ideas that threatened them, for being transgender to the degree it leaked out pre-transition (and it did leak out from time to time). I was shunned in my own cult for eight years…I’m not breaking a sweat asshole. I don’t think you understand…

      4. athyco

        You seem to have a one-sided view of “civil,” my dear tiberiusbeauregard.

        Civility lets you say things you couldn’t normally say without escalating a situation.
        Civility lets you feed ideas to people, despite their hostility towards your general position.
        Civility will provide sufficient safe space for anyone to re-consider his position without humiliation.
        Civility doesn’t burn bridges.

        Anton Hill initiated his interaction with Zinnia by using the phrase “born with a pee-pee.” That is not something you could say to a stranger without expecting to escalate a situation, the very least in this situation in expecting such childish terms to satisfy another that you respect their intelligence. He was not civil. Zinnia was.

        What ideas did Anton Hill take from his interaction despite his hostility (or simple ignorance) of Zinnia’s general position? He has had nothing to say about them–ever. He simply used her civility–without her permission–to put her into a position she did not desire. She has done nothing to devalue others on his side with him as an example. His post did not put her in a “safe space.” He still saw her as an adversary; he’s just diminished the work of those she would call allies or colleagues. It is not civil to separate individuals on the other side from their supporters. There’s relevance to “damning with faint praise” here. If that concept is not in your understanding of civility, then you’re lacking a very basic premise.

        And when Zinnia writes clearly of her position, reinforcing the bridges between her and her allies/colleagues, what civil response does Anton Hill have?

        His use of the phrase “hates me” about her in the title of his next post to paint her as extreme. It’s an uncivil escalation.

        He feigns helplessness from his first sentence as though she has forced him out of a “semi-commitment” to the direction he’d planned for his blog. He attempts to minimize her argument by stating outright (more than once) that he didn’t read the fewer than 600 words that were about him (although his post is over 700 words!).Oh, it had a tone of “Anton’s a naughty boy”! He’s provided no standing for his ideas since he’s so busy trying to double characterize hers as both a hostile and a trivial position. And he ends it with a disgusting charge of white male privilege on Zinnia’s part because he knows nothing about transwomen of color.

        (I quickly decided against commenting there and providing him a list of names. Sure, if he tweeted at any of them, they’d probably either eat him alive or block him immediately, but I’d be ashamed to be in any way responsible for such an entitled asshole rolling up on them.)

        Anton’s never built a bridge that anyone else could come along to torch. They all fall apart at his own touch because he never intended them to be of any use to anyone other than himself.

        1. tiberiusbeauregard

          @athyco

          He was not civil. Zinnia was.

          Yup. That’s why he looked like a fool and Zinnia did not.

          That is not something you could say to a stranger without expecting to escalate a situation

          True. And he should’ve been confronted with his infantile behaviour right at the beginning.
          I’m not advocating for appeasement, if that’s what you thought.

          @MaoistAnchoress

          People hide behind ‘civility’ all the time

          Anyone can hide bad intentions behind polite behaviour but that’s not civility. Civility includes a do-not-destroy attitude. And you don’t give it up just because people in your surrounding have thrown it away.

          you shouldn’t come in this thread and threaten Lauren with shunning or ‘other consequences’ as you indirectly specified here

          Don’t pretend that you feel threatened by me, when all I did was to describe other peoples’ foreseeable behaviour, over which I have no control at all.

          My prediction however, is perfectly clear and understandable. If you treat people in unnecessarily harsh ways, they won’t respond in kind. And if they come to the conclusion that they don’t want to endure your presence in their social circles in the future, they will take actions to make sure they won’t have to. No mystery involved.

          My job in life is to become as sexy and desirable as possible, blueball everyone, and then…

          If you’re on some strange trip (seriously WTF did I just have to read?) and you think it involves deliberately treating other people badly, you will eventually get yourself into trouble. You MUST know that. At least have the decency not to blame others for your misfortune.

          1. RainbowSlushie^.^

            If you’re on some strange trip (seriously WTF did I just have to read?) and you think it involves deliberately treating other people badly, you will eventually get yourself into trouble. You MUST know that. At least have the decency not to blame others for your misfortune.

            You’ve not noticed something here: someone here (Great American Satan) has told you quite clearly you might be globally banned an it looks like you’re working towards it. You’ve made threats here to Zinnia and me, you can keep pretending youve not, but you’re clearly a transphobe who is not interested in empirical data in the slightest, just like your ‘friends’ who you’ve threatened Zinnia and me with ‘unspecified consequences’ including shunning.

            If you get banned here, at least have the decency not to blame others for your misfortune. Shunning is cruelty when done to oppressed minorities, whether they’re civil or not, you’re a cruel person, I really get it. Acting like you have any decency or playing wordgames with being polite vs civil (it’s actually pretty much the same thing), is, if you’ve noticed by now, getting you nowhere on this board.

            I suggest that, once you’ve been kickbanned, you place the blame for your behavior where it lies, that is, on you. If you’ve noticed, I’ve been pretty uncivil with you and yet no one has corrected me, why do you think that is?

            I don’t think you understand something: the people here on this board and elsewhere in freethinker movements are actively shunning people like you, in response to shunning and other forms of cruelty. This endeavor is not nearly as one sided as you seem to imagine it is; with uncivil people on one side and principled people on the other; it’s more like you and others have been assholes, hiding behind politeness and citing civility, and you’re not actually going to have access to people like me, and if you come near me, you or your friends, I’ll actually murder you. Do I make myself clear?

          2. RainbowSlushie^.^

            What a long-winded explanation why she wants to hang with the naughty kids. Why didn’t she just say “I want to be cool” ?

            Well, we’ll see how far it’ll get her… civility is held in high regard by civilised people because it’s a question of character. You have it or you don’t. I wonder if she really wants to end up like the other scallywags she mentioned…

            That’s a pretty indirect implied threat, but most certainly an implied threat. Threatening people here on this board will get you nowhere, and I’ll repeat this again: if you or your friends come near me, I will murder you. I am ex-elite infantry and an ex-member of an assassin’s guild. It would behoove you to avoid me from here on out.

          3. tiberiusbeauregard

            Is that your game? Lie about what people say to make yourself feel better ?

            If you keep claiming that I threatened you (or anyone else), you are -lying-. And if that’s a habit of yours, you folks are habitual liars. And in that case, you WILL end up like the other scallywags, which simply means this: You will reduce yourself to being an irrelevant crybaby at the fringe of what is already a fringe movement. And that’s ALL it means…

            I am [...] an ex-member of an assassin’s guild

            You need help. ASAP. Can someone intervene and get this person help ???

          4. RainbowSlushie^.^

            Is that your game? Lie about what people say to make yourself feel better ?

            If you keep claiming that I threatened you (or anyone else), you are -lying-. And if that’s a habit of yours, you folks are habitual liars. And in that case, you WILL end up like the other scallywags, which simply means this: You will reduce yourself to being an irrelevant crybaby at the fringe of what is already a fringe movement. And that’s ALL it means…

            I am [...] an ex-member of an assassin’s guild

            You need help. ASAP. Can someone intervene and get this person help ???

            I’ll decide what unspecified threats implied by what you’ve said mean. You don’t make vague sounding indirect threats to people and then sit here and pretend you’ve threatened no one:

            What a long-winded explanation why she wants to hang with the naughty kids. Why didn’t she just say “I want to be cool” ?

            Well, we’ll see how far it’ll get her… civility is held in high regard by civilised people because it’s a question of character. You have it or you don’t. I wonder if she really wants to end up like the other scallywags she mentioned

            I bolded the dot dot dot for you, which, you know, highlights the unspecified nature of the indirect threat you made here, which was actually very uncivil of you. Or, if you prefer you can call it a ‘civil threat’, it means nothing to me. You don’t get to make a dot dot dot unspecified implied indirect threat and then tell everyone after the fact you’ve threatened them that the threat is allegedly not a threat and more specified than it is. Also, why are you blathering on about me needing help? You can’t possibly be scared of me, right? I thought you and your friends were going to ‘shun’ people like me and Zinnia, so why the concern? If you’re shunning me and Zinnia you can’t possibly physically be around me and Zinnia, so I don’t see how you can possibly be concerned about being killed, you or your bros.

            If any of your bros ‘politely’ and ‘civily’ corners me in a dark alley somewhere, or in a basement in some housing structure, I will politely and civily murder every last one of you and dismember your body and place it in a nearby trashcan or sewer opening. You’ve been warned.

            You need help, I suggest you see a psychiatrist.

  21. 21
    Great American Satan

    Tiberius seems to be doing the rounds in an effort to get banned from all over the FTB. Some of the bloggers here don’t do much to police their comments though, so it may be a while that we have to put up with his ign’ant ass.

    1. 21.1
      RainbowSlushie^.^

      I’m the “music fan” from the other thread, remember me? I remember you. I came in ninja to take out that privileged racist.

      Here’s how I look btw, and here’s my blog:
      http://pastebin.com/ZpBkCCXf (image links taken from here:

      (Newer)
      http://imgur.com/a/80tMs#0
      http://imgur.com/a/7Xign#0
      http://imgur.com/a/bZlB8/#0

      Older:
      http://imgur.com/a/1d2Ox#0
      http://imgur.com/a/63vnT#0

      evil poppet and needles:
      http://imgur.com/a/ZntKw#8
      http://imgur.com/EuKQ9UJ

      Blog:
      http://sweetlovingvampryss.blogspot.com/2013/06/eternal-immurement-for-queens-royal.html

      I am an assigned male at birth transsexual woman, and I’ve been transitioned for a couple of years now.

      So now you know what the person who was posting rage against the machine songs in that tread looks like =~). That was a totally ninja agendered looking takedown. I do stuff like that because I just don’t care: transwomen we’re not supposed to gender fuck right? I gender fuck, even though I am usually ridiculously femme offline/meatspace. I only get one life, and it will be spent in defiance of asshole until the end.

      1. Great American Satan

        I remember you. :-)

        Actually, I thought you looked familiar and found pictures you posted somewhere else, but I get the impression you like to be able to come and go at your own discretion, so I won’t say where I saw you. I’m a cis, bi dude in a gay relationship (7 years now), over on the left coast.

        Pleased to meet you again.

      2. Great American Satan

        Though I have to say, I didn’t look at all those pictures before and just now saw the needles pics… I don’t know what to say to that as a non-professional, but I hope you’re OK. <3

        1. RainbowSlushie^.^

          Oh it’s mostly like BDSM, the needles, just light self play; I made sure they were sterilized.

          The cuts however…that’s different… Trauma gets to people, yes. As far as professionals, well, I’m already seeing a few and they’re well aware of it. Oh yes, I just, you know, post my photos and blog stuff so people know what I look like and who I am. I’m Autistic so I am not the best with social convention??? I just share with people: music, videos, writing, poetry, pictures. Something like this.

          I wouldn’t say I am ‘ok’ and I don’t think I will be until I get safe housing and don’t inhabit extreme isolation, thank you for the sentiments though.

          1. Great American Satan

            That’s good to hear. I was aware people do stuff like that sometimes, but I’ve seen too much of the other stuff. :(

            Good luck gettin’ out of solitary. <3

          2. RainbowSlushie^.^

            Also@GreatAmericanSatan

            This housing situation I am living in is pretty unsafe stuff, my roommate indirectly threatened to kill me sometime in fall of last year and my landlady was constantly threatening to evict me until I got the fair housing center involved and they informed her she was actually discriminating-this was versus the ‘strictly business’ civil attitude she was hiding behind. Once the fair housing center got involved, she quit threatening to evict me, and my roommate and his friends quit being blatantly hostile to me, but this is still pretty unsafe housing; my roommate could still kill me simply because he doesn’t like transgender people. So I think it’s a bit more than even being in extreme isolation even…. Sad really, because if the people on this website actually cared about me, I’m pretty sure this situation would have been solved ages ago…Nonetheless I am here for a time before I disappear again to the ether. Pardon me if I doubt the sincerity and compassion of people here.. sorry =/

            Thanks for the sentiments though, for what it’s worth they sound nice and polite.

        2. RainbowSlushie^.^

          That’s good to hear. I was aware people do stuff like that sometimes, but I’ve seen too much of the other stuff. :(

          Good luck gettin’ out of solitary. <3

          Good luck indeed, because it ain’t going to be due to anyone here that I get out of solitary. I get that I am temporarily amongst FTB as a political movement, but it’s not because I think the people here genuinely care about me. If they did I would have left this solitary/extreme isolation a long time ago. The people here are temporary allies, maybe long term allies of a sort, we’ll see, but I’m definitely not ‘one of the folks’ in the most concrete way.

  22. 22
    cityzenjane

    I loved you before ZJ, but I love you so much more after this.

    Brilliant.

  23. 23
    cityzenjane

    It’s always lovely when someone has a polite boot on your neck tells you not to use a sharp tone when discussing the boot. Otherwise, they might just not listen to your concerns about the boot on your neck.

    Sounds VERY civilized.

    1. 23.1
      RainbowSlushie^.^

      The whole ‘civil/polite’ boot on the neck thing I hate too. >=(

      It’s hilarious these bigots think I’m going to fallout and break when I’ve been living in extreme isolation for five years and severe isolation for around 12 years. What a joke. I was trained extensively; mostly self trained because the cult I was in shunned me; in eremitic techniques for surviving severe to extreme isolation, precisely because the group shunned me within it and the group itself was severely isolated already in general, because people don’t like Monarchists. It’s hilarious people think the cruel trauma of isolation is going to break me: it will only ever harden my ruthless hatred for them as bigoted privileged assholes. It will only steel my resolve to defy them.

      I play politics by saying to bigots like tiberius in between the lines ‘Ok, you want to shun me or be complicit in such, that’s ok, don’t complain when you’ve got no access to me, don’t come near me, that’s what you want right?…’ I can go 900-1200 years in this extreme isolation without falling out, I’m not breaking a sweat. Fuck these assholes.

  24. 24
    Hermes Daughter

    I would really not worry too much about what Nelson Garcia thinks or posts on his blog. Please see:
    http://evil-unveiled.com/Nelson_Garcia

  25. 25
    Great American Satan

    Whoa. Icky.

  26. 26
    The Other Point of View

    I will be brief with my comment.

    No, you should not suffer fools, bigots, morons, or trolls gladly. Such people should not have their feelings coddled. And the same goes for those who are not foolish, or bigoted, or moronic, or trollish, but nevertheless do or say things that are foolish, bigoted, moronic, or trollish. Ignorance and/or good intention does not excuse one from being responsible for inappropriate behavior, no matter how well-meaning.

    With that said, about “not wanting to be one of the good ones.” I cannot comment on Anton Hill’s beef with Ophelia or anyone else. But for myself, as someone with admittedly conservative views, been called a bigot (charitably), and even been banned on certain sites for expressing a given opinion, I can say that I have encountered the alleged, quote unquote, “bad ones”. People who make a lot of sense and are sharp thinkers, and yet their own arrogance, pettiness, and worse, their own inability to realize when it is they who are using logical fallacies and factual errors sabotages their whole point.

    You are not such a one (for the record, to my knowledge, neither is Ophelia). You are not “meek”. You are not “docile”. You do not tip toe around difficult issues. You state your piece. You stand your ground. And while other people give into venting their frustration; an understandable human reaction; you repeatedly forego that in favor of calming and decisively dismantling faulty logic and making compelling arguments.

    You cause ones such as me that disagree with you, strongly, on many things to nevertheless admire your intellectual honesty and moral center. Such atributes are why I follow your blog regularly.

    I can’t speak for Anton Hill, but I can say that yes, in comparison to some other internet personas, you are something special. You don’t need to wish to be one of the “stronger” ones. As far as I’m concerned; you already are.

  1. 27
    We’re all bad together here…and proud of it » Pharyngula

    […] rightly resentful when a blogger who goes by the name “the atheist asshole” calls her “one of the good ones”. They’re missing the truth: while she’s all straightforward and civil and all that, […]

  2. 28
    So now @ZJemptv hates me too, and other sad tales. in the corner | Atheist Asshole

    […] know, whatever, and already I have a pingback from Zinnia Jones linked to a post she wrote entitled “I Don’t Want to Be One of the Good Ones” which was a bit of a reaction to the bit I wrote here, which had a long title, and went something […]

  3. 29
    Sheep this way, goats that way » Butterflies and Wheels

    […] Jones is rightly resentful when a blogger who goes by the name “the atheist asshole” calls her “one of the good ones”. They’re missing the truth: while she’s all straightforward and civil and all that, she’s […]

  4. 30
    I don’t want to be “one of the good ones” » Zinnia Jones | #Op Manning

    […] I don’t want to be “one of the good ones” » Zinnia Jones […]

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