Quantcast

«

»

Sep 19 2012

If you aren’t attracted to us, then stop being attracted to us

Leftytgirl is absolutely on point with her critique of the no-win situation trans women are placed in by the demand for “disclosure” on their part:

So we see that what’s happening in these situations: there is an unresolved tension between the imagination of a cissexist society that heterosexual, cis men are only attracted to cis women, and the real-world fact that heterosexual, cis male sexual attraction to trans women is far from an uncommon phenomenon. Given that this larger cissexist imagination often emerges from voices with greater power in society, that tension tends to be resolved by assuming that such attraction never happens, and that even if it does, it is the just the result of some “deceptive tr*nny,” who probably deserves whatever violent “retribution” she receives— even in the case that this violence was never retributive in the first place.

Now, this isn’t to say that there are not instances in which a cis man does discover a woman’s trans status “in the moment,” then reacts in a violent manner. But this is to say, first of all, that the “disclosure” myth hands this man respect and power that he does not deserve, in the form of a ready-made, socially palatable alibi for violence against a woman with whom he willingly decided to engage in sexual relations. And secondly, given that this hypothetical cis man is indeed attracted to a trans woman, we cannot allow ourselves to buy into the cissexist imagination that she has somehow “disrespected” him merely by accepting or encouraging his very real sexual desires.

The fact is that regardless of what this man likes to imagine about himself, or what any of us might be inclined to tell ourselves, he is indeed attracted to a trans woman. That is an undeniable fact, and there’s no manner of obsessing, or fidgeting over it, and certainly no amount of blood splattered across the wall that is going to change that. So from the point that the man realizes that he is in fact attracted to a trans woman, he has two choices: get up and leave the room if he so desires, or else get the fuck over it.

By legitimizing the idea that violence is an acceptable response to finding out that someone is trans – whether before, during or after any physical contact, even while you’re sexually assaulting them, and even if you already knew well ahead of time that they were trans – and then accusing trans people of “deception” if they don’t offer this information, society has taken all of the responsibility for cis people’s brutal, prejudiced, plainly unacceptable reactions to trans people, and shifted it to trans people themselves.

We’re to blame for their attraction to us. We’re to blame for our existence ensuring that they can no longer rightfully believe that all the women they’re attracted to aren’t trans. We’re to blame for their discomfort at the disconnect between what they believe their desires to be, and what those desires actually are. We’re to blame for the violence they inflict on us when they come face-to-face with their own internal dissonance. And even if they’re only faced with this realization after the fact, we’re still to blame for the supposed “trauma” they might somehow suffer from the oh-so-terrible discovery that one of their past partners was trans.

We’re to blame for the actions of people who can become so “panicked” at someone’s mere existence that their first reaction is to harass, beat or kill that person. And we’re to blame for hurting their fragile feelings when we upend an assumption they shouldn’t have held in the first place – an assumption which their own actions directly contradict.

Think about whose problem this really is. Don’t make it ours.

169 comments

1 ping

Skip to comment form

  1. 1
    The Other Point of View

    Philosophical musings aside a person has the right to want a natural woman.

    Now, the fact that I might look at a transwoman and indeed find them attractive does not mean my desires are “fake”. This also does not mean they’re not attractive or beautiful. And it certainly doesn’t mean they are somehow at fault for the specific neuroses and impulses that make up my sexual desires.

    It does mean that finding a person attractive is subject to revelation of more information. Sometimes the informations makes no difference, sometimes it does. You’re not a natural red? Meh. You do have children. Maybe we should be friends. You’re not into MGMT? We can work on that. You were actually Jason once and not Jessica? I’m no longer interested.

    There are certain things nobody is obligated to share, I readily agree. But seriously, if you know full well that there’s a pretty sizeable part of the populace that doesn’t want to be intimate with a transwoman, to the point of becoming violent if fooled (NOTE: Violence is NEVER a tolerable option) then is it really such a big deal to add it to the list of “Things that I don’t have to share, but for the sake of simplicity I will” along with “I’m seeing somebody else non-exclusively” and “I have this non-fatal STD”?

    1. 1.1
      HappiestSadist, Repellent Little Martyr

      What exactly do you think trans people are made out of? They’re as natural as cis people.

      Also, why do you think it’s okay to liken being trans to being married or having a fatal STI? Please explain how that’s not kind of horrific.

      You have every right to be attracted to whoever you are attracted to, but it’s also possible for those attractions to be rooted in serious bigotry. And yeah, liking women, but excluding trans women from that group is rooted in transphobia.

      1. A. Noyd

        Well, they said “non-fatal STD”, but it’s still incredibly wrong. It completely reverses the situation. The infected person is expected to disclose their STI for the sake of the other person’s health. A transwoman is expected to disclose she’s trans for the sake of her own health.

        1. Arion

          I believe they meant that it is among the list of things you normally wouldn’t want to share with someone, but should, ahead of time, if you plan to have physical contact with them. I’m not to big on the whole trans deal myself, and would like to know if someone I was attracted to was, or was not LGBT, after discovering that bit of information, who knows.

      2. satanaugustine

        And yeah, liking women, but excluding trans women from that group is rooted in transphobia.

        I call bullshit here. One needn’t fear and/or hate trans women to not be attracted to them once the trans part is known to them. Most women have a vagina. Expecting this to be so and ceasing to be attracted to a woman once you find out it is not so does not constitute a phobia, but merely a preference. On the other hand, if you’re referring exclusively to a violent reaction to finding out the woman you were attracted to doesn’t match your preferences, then I’d concede that such an extreme reaction constitutes transphobia. Obviously finding that you’re no longer attracted to someone after finding that they don’t meet your expectations is no reason for violence, whether that expectation regards their anatomy, marital status, or parenthood status. If the reaction, however, is rejection, unpleasant though that is, I cannot begin to see how this could interpreted as transphobia anymore than a sexual preference for the same sex could be interpreted as heterophobia.

      3. Franklin McPherson

        All sexual attraction is rooted in bigotry if thats what you want to call it. No one is obligated to sleep with anyone. For example, lets say there is a man born with a physical deformity which makes him sexually repulsive to the majority of the female population so much so that they could not see themselves doing anything remotely sexual with him under any circumstance. Now lets say this particular man craves to be with a woman sexually, but can’t because most women are turned off by his deformity. He thinks it is wrong and unfair that women sleep with men who are normal-looking (for lack of a better term), yet won’t give him the time of day, after all, he’s a man too. He says that it is not his fault he has this deformity and that he deserves female attention just as much as a man who doesn’t have a physical deformity. This angers him and he begins to say that women are “bigoted” against people with physical deformities! His evidence for this bigotry? Most women aren’t sexually attracted to him and wouldn’t sleep with him if their lives depended on it. Well, is that really bigotry? No. Why isn’t it bigotry? Because no one owes sex to him. Period. It sucks that he was born with this deformity which makes him generally unappealing to women. Still, women don’t owe it to him to go to bed with him, because he feels he deserves it because they go to bed with other men. What women do owe him is dignity and respect. He deserves common courtesy and respect as a human being. However, giving someone dignity and respect does not include giving them sexual favors. Likewise, with transwomen. Men don’t owe it to you to go to bed with you. And that can be for any reason or no reason at all. Just because you feel like men ought to be attracted to you like they would be for a biological woman, doesnt mean that they have to be. As a man, im attracted to biological women. Period. There’s no debate or discussion about it. You can give me 100 of the most logical arguments you can dream of, but it won’t matter. Who I decide to stick my penis in is up to me, and if you weren’t born a woman, I’m not interested. I’ll treat you with dignity and respect, but I have 0 interest in being with a transwoman, as most straight men do. If that makes me a hater and a bigot, then fine. Men don’t owe it to transwomen to sleep with them because they feel they are the equal of a biological woman. You may not think its fair, but it is what it is. The man with the physical deformity may think it’s unfair that the woman he has a crush on bypasses him for a handsome man. Thats unfortunate, but its the way things are. You may think it’s unfair a man would leap over you for a biological woman. It’s just the way it is.

    2. 1.2
      M can help you with that.

      Fuck that noise.

      OK, I may have to use sex and/or gender-specific pronouns in the following rant which differ from those in the comment I’m replying to (because I generally don’t find women attractive, though there are certain exceptions), but here we go:

      Who worth worrying about is that hung up about genitalia? If I want to fuck somebody, it’s because I want to fuck that person, not “that genital configuration”. Yes, that might mean that I have to do a bit of extra thinking and communication. I may have zero first-hand experience with vaginas or clitorises, but if a dude I want to fuck (and if the feeling’s mutual) has a vagina and/or clitoris, that just means that I have to fucking communicate about how each of us likes to fuck. Which — shocking! — is what I do anyways. How difficult is that?

      1. hall-of-rage

        I know, right??

    3. 1.3
      BecomingJulie

      Who the fuck are you calling unnatural?

    4. 1.4
      Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

      Sorry – you’re a transphobic ass.

      Trans* women are natural. We’re not made of plastic, we’re not some kind of construct, we’re not golems.

      1. Jesse Cruickshank

        *thumbs up*

        Thank you for being witty and pointing out that persons bigotry.

    5. 1.5
      Aoife

      “A natural woman”? So trans* women are unnatural? That is mind-boggling in its transphobia.

    6. 1.6
      Aoife

      Also, woah there with the victim-blaming. You say that violence isn’t excusable, but then you say that people should have to divulge personal information in order to prevent people assaulting them? Instead of blaming the people committing acts of violence against innocent people?

      1. The Other Point of View

        I was wrong.

        1. Jesse Cruickshank

          You bet you were. I have to accept that you acknowledged it, but please include a better apology than just “I was wrong” if you want to convince us that you are sorry, which you might never be able to do.

        2. Jesse Cruickshank

          You owe a better apology than that, especially if you want anyone to believe you are sorry. I’ll accept that for now.

          1. The Other Point Of View

            I’m sorry for not being clearer that violence is not an acceptable response to learning that the person you might have kissed or even slept with, is not a natural woman.

            And I fully acknowledge that it isn’t fair to expect someone to reveal intimate details about themselves, even if it would potentially avoid an awkward, or dangerous reaction.

            I DON’T apologize for saying I wouldn’t want to sleep with a transwoman, I don’t apologize for having the right to voice my opinion, I don’t apologize for the many people here who absorbed with their own inflated sense of self-importance, and I don’t apologize for telling any and every one that I owe them no explanation or justification for anything I feel.

  2. 2
    A. Noyd

    The Other Point of View (#1)

    Philosophical musings aside a person has the right to want a natural woman.

    Transwomen are natural women. (These are unnatural women.)

    But seriously, if you know full well that there’s a pretty sizeable part of the populace that doesn’t want to be intimate with a transwoman, to the point of becoming violent if fooled…then is it really such a big deal to add it to the list of “Things that I don’t have to share, but for the sake of simplicity I will”….

    For one thing, it is a big deal to have to choose particular actions out of fear of being abused or murdered. For another, you’re mixing up a pragmatic argument with a moral one. While, in practice, it might sometimes be wise for transwomen to share their trans status in order to avoid becoming victims of violence, the more tenable assignment of responsibility is to expect guys to handle their own deal-breaker disclosures. If a dude has a problem with transwomen, it’s not a “big deal” for him to disclose that (along with any other deal-breakers) before entering a sexual relationship with any given woman.

    By putting the responsibility on the woman, you’re still giving cover to the dudes who react inappropriately when finding out their lover isn’t living up to all their expectations. You may condemn violent reactions, but you still take it for granted that the transwoman is “fooling” the dude. But if he has displayed his attraction without giving her any signals as to his more discriminating preferences, then it’s actually him who has fooled her.

    1. 2.1
      Brad

      If a dude has a problem with transwomen, it’s not a “big deal” for him to disclose that (along with any other deal-breakers) before entering a sexual relationship with any given woman.

      Because random bigot dude is going to even consider that he’s hitting on a trans woman? I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect random bigot dudes to ask about trans status with every woman they get interested in.

      By putting the responsibility on the woman, you’re still giving cover to the dudes who react inappropriately when finding out their lover isn’t living up to all their expectations.

      Bullshit. If I find out a potential sex partner has some attribute I dislike sexually, I have to go a bit far out of my way to commit battery.

      You may condemn violent reactions, but you still take it for granted that the transwoman is “fooling” the dude. But if he has displayed his attraction without giving her any signals as to his more discriminating preferences, then it’s actually him who has fooled her.

      I agree a trans woman isn’t necessarily engaging in deception, just like someone with dietary restrictions is being deceptive when they’re offered a bacon cheeseburger. I don’t think anybody should have to wear this information on their sleeves, but in a situation where the information is relevant the onus is on the person who is different to say she’s a vegetarian, or kosher-keeping Jew, or has irregular ladybits (including cis women) or he has irregular manbits (includin cis men).

      I’m posting in good faith, if I said something terrible, please point it out so I can apologize.

      1. Yoritomo

        Funny how the vegetarian and the kosher-keeping Jew have to declare their preferences, but the only-cis-lover hasn’t. Why shouldn’t the person offering the food have to ask beforehand? Because transphobic bigotry is just so much more common than vegetarianism?

      2. earth & stars

        If this hypothetical bigot has given that sort of thought to the possibility of having sex with a trans woman, he knows there’s a chance he might at some point be attracted to a trans woman he reads as cis. As with any other deal-breaker, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect him to bring it up before things get serious. That’s something that mature adults do.

        Cis men routinely justify the assault and murder of women by claiming ‘surprise’, ‘anger’, ‘betrayal’ and ‘disgust’ when finding out about her medical history. No matter when and how a trans woman discloses to a transphobic cis man, doing so puts her in danger. You’re putting the onus on her to put her life on the line in the hope that he won’t hurt her with or because of what she’s told him instead of expecting him to take a small degree of personal responsibility. On top of this, you’re implying that if she doesn’t run this risk, *she’s* the one at fault in the relationship- which is the same basic defence that self-confessed killers have successfully used to avoid serving time. Like it or not, these guys see “It’s her responsibility to tell us” as justification, and society often agrees with them, even when it means that men who commit violent premeditated murder suffer no consequences.

      3. Anne C. Hanna

        Brad,

        Because random bigot dude is going to even consider that he’s hitting on a trans woman? I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect random bigot dudes to ask about trans status with every woman they get interested in.

        I wouldn’t “expect” a random bigot d00d to ask that kind of question in the sense that I *predict* that that’s what he would actually do, but I do “expect” him to do it in the same sense that I might “expect” a child of appropriate age to clean hir room. It’s bigot-d00d’s responsibility to disclose his weird, creepy sexual phobia in advance rather than getting violent about it after the fact, and if he chooses to get violent rather than just civilly disclose, he’s not a good person. Obviously, in the real world, trans folks have to account for the predictable risk of bigot-d00dly violence, because there are plenty of not-good people out there, but they already know that, the same way most women (cis or trans) know that we have to account for the predictable risk of misogynist-d00dly violence. But we have a right to expect and demand better.

        Bullshit. If I find out a potential sex partner has some attribute I dislike sexually, I have to go a bit far out of my way to commit battery.

        Agreed, and if a moderate religious person discovers a gay person in hir community, ze might have to go pretty far out of hir way to commit battery too, but the fact that moderate religious people consider their dumb anti-gay religious books to be sacred and promote faith as a good thing in and of itself still gives cover to the crazy fundamentalists who use their faith in those shitty old books to justify the ease with which they slip into battery-mode. Don’t be that guy. Don’t give cover to the bigot-d00ds by leaving the burden of fighting them entirely on the shoulders of trans people.

        I agree a trans woman isn’t necessarily engaging in deception, just like someone with dietary restrictions is being deceptive when they’re offered a bacon cheeseburger. I don’t think anybody should have to wear this information on their sleeves, but in a situation where the information is relevant the onus is on the person who is different to say she’s a vegetarian, or kosher-keeping Jew, or has irregular ladybits (including cis women) or he has irregular manbits (includin cis men).

        Except having to refuse bacon cheeseburgers doesn’t really fuck up your life a whole lot, and it’s really not a huge deal, unlike having to constantly pre-emptively tell everyone who might ever have even the slightest chance of briefly considering you attractive that you’re trans, so that they won’t brutally murder you for the threat you inadvertently pose to their masculinity, meanwhile worrying that if you tell them you’re trans they might brutally murder you anyway just for being trans.

        And I say this as someone who refuses bacon cheeseburgers all the time on accounta I’m a vegetarian, and who lives with somebody who refuses bacon cheeseburgers all the time on accounta he’s a vegetarian who was raised with Kosher dietary preferences. Now, I have yet to try living in the deep South, so maybe once I move there this winter I’ll finally discover somewhere where I can get killed for refusing bacon cheeseburgers, but until then I’m gonna say that there’s not much of a comparison here.

        I’m posting in good faith, if I said something terrible, please point it out so I can apologize.

        If you’re posting in good faith, it’s helpful if you don’t tell marginalized people that the perspective they derive from a position of marginalization which you have not and cannot ever personally experience is based on bullshit. Just a suggestion.

        1. noelplum99

          First off, I actually have a great deal of sympathy for trans people, life must be hard with a capital H in many ways going through all the shit that is involved and then even when you feel comfortable within yourself dealing with the issues society throws your way.
          I also agree that there should be no sense of compulsion to reveal such details nor compunction for not doing so.
          In my view we should allow each other to be free to be the sexual beings we are with whatever sexual preferences and idiosyncracies that involves (with the obvious exceptions). It is this kind of attitude that we would all benefit from but perhaps trans people more than average.

          Then I read this:

          It’s bigot-d00d’s responsibility to disclose his weird, creepy sexual phobia in advance

          I had assumed the posters here gave as good as they took (and maybe most do). If you are attracted to the opposite gender so be it; your own gender so be it; both genders so be it; soft fruit so be it; stilettos so be it; east asian people so be it; middle aged white guys with receeding bleached hair so be it (c’mon there must be someone out there!).
          It just seems the height of hypocrisy given that all this thread is about accepting people’s sexual preferences to label someone a ‘bigot-d00d’ with a ‘weird, creepy sexual phobia’. Where is the reciprocation and acceptance in this statement? Where is the allowing people to be attracted to whatever they are attracted to?

          i have seen many statements down below that are far more accommodating than this, I am just amazed noone has said anything against this statement, which is in itself bigotted imo.

          Jim (np99)

          1. Anne C. Hanna

            east asian people so be it; middle aged white guys with receeding bleached hair so be it

            Racial fetishes or phobias are also creepy and bigoted, sorry. I’m not a huge fan of hair color or body size or disability fetishes either — that shit is pretty fucking superficial. The most generous evaluation I can find it in me to give of all this kind of stuff is that such predilections make one’s pretensions to human decency highly suspect and one should probably check oneself pretty hard before inflicting those preferences on anyone else.

            And I’m not gonna apologize for being “bigoted” against the straight-up bigots. If you (generic you , not personal you) can’t even begin to try to be comfortable with the idea of getting hot for a particular person because of their skin color or their assigned-at-birth gender (regardless of current presentation), there is something deeply wrong with you. You don’t have a fetish deserving of tolerance, you have a personality defect in need of immediate correction, and you should feel bad about it and work to fix it, not get all huffy because somebody pointed out that your sexual preferences are pretty goddamn bigoted.

          2. robertbaden

            I remember 40 years ago when I was in high school there was an anglo young women who liked black men. The talk about her as a result was undeniably racist.

          3. julian

            I am just amazed noone has said anything against this statement, which is in itself bigotted imo.

            How can the bit you quote be bigotry but what it refers to not? Being disgusted by a whole people for no material or worthwhile reason?

            It isn’t some feature that’s turned them off it’s the reality of their life that does. This is akin to discovering a woman you thought was black was really mixed and then being utterly disgusted by her. It’s bigotry at its purest.

            But thank you for that. It’s resolved some tension in my mind. If accepting others sexuality and expression means accepting bigotry I’ll gladly be anti-sex.

          4. noelplum99

            Julian

            How can the bit you quote be bigotry but what it refers to not? Being disgusted by a whole people for no material or worthwhile reason?

            Where have you got this ‘being disgusted by a whole (??group of??) people’ line from?

            This was the quote in question:

            It’s bigot-d00d’s responsibility to disclose his weird, creepy sexual phobia in advance

            And the ‘bigot-dood’ was someone who simply is unable to get his head round the whole trans issue such that the knowledge of which precludes sexual attraction. Where is there any mention of ‘disgust’???
            Now I am sure there are very many genuine bigots who ARE disgusted by trans individuals but I do not believe having something that proves a mental stumbling block to sexual attraction towards some individuals warrants being called a ‘weird, creepy sexual phobic’.
            Jim (np99)

          5. julian

            Being disgusted has nothing to do with whether it’s bigotry. Go back to my example except forget the beating. A black man is attracted to a black woman. He discovers she has a white parent. He refuses to engage in any kind of intimacy with her because of she’s not a “real” black person.

          6. Anne C. Hanna
            It’s bigot-d00d’s responsibility to disclose his weird, creepy sexual phobia in advance

            And the ‘bigot-dood’ was someone who simply is unable to get his head round the whole trans issue such that the knowledge of which precludes sexual attraction.

            Thanks for the strawman, noelplum99. Halloween’s coming up and I needed something to decorate my house with. “Simply unable to get his head round the whole trans issue”? Seriously? Y’know, I *still* can’t get my head around the whole trans issue, and that’s got nuthin’ to do with the question of whether I’d retain sexual or romantic interest in someone I had previously found appealing once I learned that they were trans. And it’s especially got nothing to do with the question of whether there would be any chance of me getting violent, or even deliberately rude, about such a revelation.

            Not being able to wrap your head around all the nuances of a particular category of gender identity does not justify making a point of rejecting all members of that category *in principle* as potential sexual partners, and it especially doesn’t justify having an over-the-top reaction to unexpectedly learning that someone you find attractive happens to be a member of that category. These are the people this article is about, and these are the people I was describing as having a weird, creepy sexual phobia, and I stand by that characterization. Why on earth are you so obsessed with defending them?

      4. A. Noyd

        Because random bigot dude is going to even consider that he’s hitting on a trans woman? I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect random bigot dudes to ask about trans status with every woman they get interested in.

        If the bigot doesn’t consider it, it’s because he takes it for granted that he shouldn’t have to. Again, there’s the prudent thing for the transwoman to do and there’s what’s reasonable. Telling bigots they’re the reasonable ones? Not very reasonable.

        If I find out a potential sex partner has some attribute I dislike sexually, I have to go a bit far out of my way to commit battery.

        That has nothing to do with what I said. My point is, a willingness on your part to assume that it’s the job of the partners of bigots to anticipate the bigots’ unstated desires absolves the bigots of a measure of responsibility. You help justify their reasoning, if not the extremity of violent (re)actions.

        [B]ut in a situation where the information is relevant the onus is on the person who is different to say she’s a vegetarian, or kosher-keeping Jew, or has irregular ladybits….

        What the fuck is with the terrible analogies? If the vegetarian and the kosher-keeping Jew have an onus, it’s not because they’re “different”; it’s that if they want their special diets to be accommodated, they have to communicate their desires. Picky eaters are not analogous to transwomen; they’re analogous to the dudes who fear their dick will fall off if they pop a chubby over a transwoman. The dude is the one asking to be accommodated. So, again, it’s his responsibility to fess up to his wish for a trans-free sexual diet.

  3. 3
    Timid Atheist

    But if he has displayed his attraction without giving her any signals as to his more discriminating preferences, then it’s actually him who has fooled her.

    I just wanted to quote this because this is well put.

  4. 4
    jamie

    I’m a white cis male who, until recently, would probably have identified with The Other Point of View in Comment 1. It’s writing like Zinnia’s and Natalie’s which has led me to question this viewpoint – and now I am happy to admit my perspective is much more like those in the responses to that comment.

    So, thanks.

    1. 4.1
      Kenn

      I have actually thought about this for a while and have come to the conclusion that I, as a cis gendered male, could be in a serious relationship with a trans woman, no problems.

    2. 4.2
      Zinc Avenger (Sarcasm Tags 3.0 Compliant)

      I concur. Unexamined prejudices affect even people who take pride in their lack of bigotry. It took me a while to work through those prejudices, but Natalie Reed’s eloquent but unforgiving writing made me see something in myself that I hate seeing in other people, so I spent some time examining why I felt that way.

  5. 5
    lochaber

    I guess I could see someone having some sexual incompatibility or something if the trans person was pre-op/non-op, maybe?

    But even so, I would imagine most people should be able to manage an apology and a statement as to why things aren’t gong to work out.

    I really don’t see any excuse for yelling, threats, assault or worse.

    .

    If they are post-op, I’m not sure if it would really matter much more then discovering your partner is infertile?

    Anything more then that, and I think it’s all in the cis person’s head.

    .

    I agree that people can have whatever criteria they feel like for their romantic and sexual partners, but if those criteria are that important to the individual who has them, it’s that individual’s responsibility to get it all sorted out before hand.

    .

    I’m well within my rights to insist on only sleeping with people born in Kansas(or whatever), but it’s my responsibility to bring that up. And if it’s so important that I would get upset about it, it’s my responsibility to demand a birth certificate or something before hand (I’m sure that would go well…). If all I did was ask where my partner was born, and they stated Kansas, and I accepted that at face value but later found out otherwise, I guess I’d be within my ‘rights’ to leave, but not to threaten or attack. In addition to it being a stupid criteria, if it mattered that much to me, It was my responsibility to verify before starting a relationship/hooking up/whatever.

    .

    Also, comparing being trans to having a non-fatal STI makes it sound like the initial poster is seriously concerned about ‘TEH GHEY’ might actually be contagious, and that the initial commenter is seriously worried about ‘catching’ it…
    .

    and, yeah, those realdoll things are creepy. I think the only creepier thing I’ve read about are the stories from satisfied costumers… (but at least the dolls might be pulling those jackasses out of the dating pool)

    1. 5.1
      hall-of-rage

      Perfect. My new undisclosed sexual deal-breaker: won’t sleep with anybody who was born in Kansas. DO NOT DECEIVE ME.

  6. 6
    SallyStrange

    Yeah, I really think the onus should be on bigots to disclose beforehand whether they will become violently freaked out of the genital configuration of the person they’re hitting on does not match their expectations.

    As a cis woman, I’d prefer to avoid these close-minded people who feel no responsibility to take control of their emotional responses as well. They are dangerous.

  7. 7
    SallyStrange

    Darnit, “if” not “of.” IF the genital configuration does not match expectations.

  8. 8
    mimi

    Well, there is SHOULD land, and there is Would land.

    Should a trans person disclose? Maybe in a long-term situation. Some people want kids of their own genetics, and its a little harder with a trans wife (though birth control would be a breeze!)For a one night stand, none of your business.

    Would I if I were trans? Probably, if only to ensure my own safety. After all, there is right, and there is dead right.

    1. 8.1
      Aoife

      Would disclosing necessarily make anyone safer, though? How would you know that disclosing wouldn’t be the very thing that some transphobe would respond to with violent rage? If the very idea of being attracted to a trans* person is something they’ll react to like that, then when is the safe time to disclose?

      This is yet another reason why the responsibility here needs to be taken the hell away from trans* people to disclose or not disclose. It’s a lose-lose situation in a lot of ways. There’s no time of disclosure that magically guarantees safety. The only thing that guarantees safety is people not attacking people.

      1. mimi

        To be honest, I would be very careful who I take home. It would be nice if creeps didn’t act violently, but they do, so the onus is unfortunately on me. Its MY safety I’m concerned about.

        1. Anne C. Hanna

          Do you really think there’s a significant number of trans people who have never thought about that, mimi? The point of this post isn’t that it’s reasonable to ignore the fact that some people are secretly dangerous assholes. The point is that the rest of us should work very hard to reduce the dangerous assholes’ freedom to work their dangerous assholery, so as to decrease the number of people who are victimized by them and support those victims. Victim-blaming (the thing you are treading perilously close to doing) is not a useful component of that project.

  9. 9
    mimi

    BTW those female sex dolls have a trans option with penis and testicles.

  10. 10
    =8)-DX

    Dunno if I’d go as far as saying a person is actually fully attracted to a trans person if they aren’t aware of the state of that person’s genitals. I mean I’ve been attracted to parts of people many times (faces/ backs/ etc) until seeing other parts of that person / seeing them in a different light / getting to know them as people.

    To me I’d see the requirement to disclose trans/genital status (if the other person doesn’t get this immediately) as something similar to disclosing penis size (huge/tiny), sexual preference (BDSM/vanilla only/no insertion first date).

    Parental/marital status or std status are a different kind of thing, but either way I think it’s best for everyone to be “out” about their sexuality to people they want to start sexual relations with.

    Violent reactions to seeing the person you’re in bed with isn’t what you expected is completely unforgivable. Personally I’d feel more ashamed at letting the trans-person’s expectations down (although I’m open-minded as to whether I’d really stop having sex/making out or whatever) – although people can’t really control their turn-ons/offs.

    The problem seems to me to stem from a kind of homophobic reaction – homophobes are afraid that gays/lesbians will try to “trick” them into having sex/becoming gay and as you said at the same time there will be a direct negative reaction to suddenly discovering one is attracted to someone whose genitals one has found unattractive one’s whole life.

    I’d say the best way to go is disclosure because that way you filter out the “violent asshole bigots” before getting into a private situation where they have the possiblity of doing violence to you – or at least take hightened precautions (having friends on the line to check up your date went fine, etc.)

    1. 10.1
      earth & stars

      Disclosing before any given point doesn’t prevent cis men from assaulting and killing trans women anyway. Nor does it prevent them from using their status to hurt them in other ways- I know women who’ve lost employment, housing or both because they came out to some guy who was ‘nice’ enough not to beat them up, then outed them to everyone he could think of. Sometimes it doesn’t even have to involve having any contact with the dude; in one case, the stalker came across an OKCupid profile which stated that she was trans and decided to wreck her life based on that.

      The best way to go is obviously to avoid transphobic people entirely, but sadly, they’re often deceptive about their wish to harm trans people. One often can’t spot them until it’s too late, never mind predict their reaction accurately.

      When disclosing cock size and sexual preference can have these sorts of consequences, then your comparison will be valid.

  11. 11
    The Other Point of View

    First off, I don’t want to be intimately involved with a transperson, and I don’t have to want to just so I can prove my progressive-mindedness.

    The point of bringing up non-fatal STDs, being divorced, or having children was precisely to say being trans is not any kind of crime. I would never do it and I wouldn’t encourage it, but hey, it’s a free country.

    I’m only saying that similar to being trans, being divorced or having children from a previous relationship aren’t things I’m not obligated to share. But I already know that some people have an issue with it, so I share these things up front.

    With all that said, I get that since I can’t force somebody to disclose information, then yes, it probably makes sense to just ask. I agree with that.

    1. 11.1
      earth & stars

      You don’t have to want to have sex with a trans person, but you do have to recognize that that’s your thing and take responsibility for it. Just tell new partners that you have enough of a problem with trans people that you wouldn’t date one and let them decide whether they want to stick around or not.

      I’m curious… what other medical conditions and treatments do you make a point of ‘not encouraging’?

    2. 11.2
      A. Noyd

      Did you even read the previous responses you got?

    3. 11.3
      BecomingJulie

      First off, I don’t want to be intimately involved with a transperson

      But how do you know you don’t want to be intimately involved with a transperson? You’re just being prejudiced there.

  12. 12
    rork

    In utopia, bigot-guy would reveal his bigotry, agreed. Where I live is not utopia, and an average male might not consider it a possibility that he’s flirting with a trans woman – he’s clueless.
    We can wish and work for better days, but meanwhile you act in the present. Is it unfair? Yes.

    I also recommend that men taking men home hoping to have sex with them, divulge their wish, or ascertain the other guys tastes first. Otherwise you increase your risks. Does it make your risk zero? No, but just cause it’s not perfect doesn’t make it useless.

    1. 12.1
      hall-of-rage

      Oh, hey, do you think MAYBE trans women could figure out such practicalities for themselves without your help?

      /snark

      1. hall-of-rage

        Admittedly, I don’t know your identity. I’m not sure it makes that much difference though, still an unhelpful reminder that the world sucks.

    2. 12.2
      lochaber

      I also recommend that men taking men home hoping to have sex with them…

      So, I’m sorta surprised someone didn’t jump all over this already, but I guess trolls aren’t exactly scarce on this thread.

      Anyways, if I were to give you the benefit of the doubt (not gonna happen), I’d guess you were referring to trans men picking up cis men at a gay bar or something. Though, I’m pretty sure you are calling a trans woman a man, and that reflects how you actually see the situation.

      I’d like to hope that I’m wrong on this, but I’m not gonna hold my breath.
      The way you phrased that, I cant help but think that you think any trans woman flirting with/hitting on/taking home a heterosexual cis guy is really just some gay dude trying to pull the wool over the eyes of some inattentive straight dude, in order to put a notch on their headboard or whatever. And that you (or any other random cis guy) is so damned desirable that gay guys will undergo medical treatments, surgical procedures, social ostracism, and legal battles, in addition to numerous other problems, just to bang you when you are really drunk? Your empathy is astounding.

  13. 13
    The Other Point of View

    “Where I live is not utopia, and an average male might not consider it a possibility that he’s flirting with a trans woman – he’s clueless.”

    Or maybe they’re just not used to people treating their sex/gender like hair color that can be changed at will.

    By the same token, perhaps counting on people to be so neo-liberal that you don’t have to share something like that upfront is wishful thinking.

    “Did you even read the previous responses you got?”

    Yes.

    “I’m curious… what other medical conditions and treatments do you make a point of ‘not encouraging’?”

    Having dealt with many liberals, I get where you’re going with this. To answer your question: I am not attracted to women of a certain size or height. I don’t date women of certain religious beliefs.

    We may live in a world where no one has the right to like what they like, but we’re not there quite yet, so I pick and I choose.

    This does NOT mean I think they should get beat up or harmed, or harassed in any way. It just means I find it unnormal (not “inhuman”, just not normal) and I don’t have to be attracted to things outside of my comfortable level of normalcy

    1. 13.1
      The Other Point of View

      “You don’t have to want to have sex with a trans person, but you do have to recognize that that’s your thing and take responsibility for it.”

      Completely agreed.

    2. 13.2
      Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

      People like you get me all rankled up. Come out and say it why don’t you? You think that trans* people are abnormal. That makes you a transphobic asshole.

      We are as much women as any other woman out there. And to go straight to the hair color analogy you’ve proven you’re a complete idiot as far as it it. Do you think that trans* people go through HELL to be who they are just cause it’s like a changing fad?

      There are many reasons trans* persons are afraid of being up front about their gender identity problems: harrassment, possibility of being beaten up or killed, possibility of losing your home, your job, your LIFE.

      But all of that is unimportant compared to the sole fact that trans* persons are their perceived gender! Many of them have gone through hardships to get to where they are, to get to the point where they’re comfortable with who they are, where they’re happy with who they are, and where they’re strong enough with their own identities to be themselves.

      1. The Other Point of View

        Your opinion on whether or not I am a “transphobic asshole” is about as important to me as your opinion on my choice of screenname. As in ‘not at all’. So that’s all the text I’ll devote to that.

        As for the rest of your post, I do believe there is a valid point under the histrionics and ranting that I’d like to address.

        I am quite aware that transpeople endure a great deal of hardship to simply be who they choose to be. Nobody said otherwise. And nobody said that it was a crime. The beauty of living in this country is that we all take our own personal paths to our own personal happiness. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

        As you well point out, they are who they choose to be. They don’t NEED my permission or approval, anymore than I need theirs, or yours, to feel the way I do personally about it.

        Simply put, there’s little reason for them, or you, to be “all rankled up.”

        1. A. Noyd

          …the histrionics and ranting…

          There was no histrionics or ranting, you dishonest, patronizing ass.

          Simply put, there’s little reason for them, or you, to be “all rankled up.”

          Except for the teeny tinsey problem of where the hardship transpeople face comes from. It comes from bigots like you enforcing your bigotry the second you get an ounce of power. And I’m not talking about just violence. It can be something as simple as denying a name change. Or making sure no blog by a transperson goes free of bigots sharing their feelings about how “unnormal” and unnatural transpeople are.

          1. The Other Point of View

            Are you ordering me to keep my opinions to myself?

          2. A. Noyd

            Are you ordering me to keep my opinions to myself?

            I’m telling you that when you create hardship for transpeople by sharing your vile opinions, you don’t get to say there’s no reason for them to get rankled up.

        2. julian

          You condescending dismissive arrogant transphobic fuck.

          In this thread you’ve failed to even hint that you have any idea what it means to be trans, what the lives of trans people are like or that you have any desire to learn.

          A. Noyd may not be telling you to shut up but I am. Send some time looking into what trans means and what their lives are like. And keep your fingers away from the fucking keyboard. Read, digest and learn.

          1. The Other Point of View

            And your authority to make such a grandiose, but ultimately empty demand, comes from………?

        3. hall-of-rage

          My opinion on your screenname is that you use it when “dealing with liberals” because it makes you feel like you have original ideas.

          1. The Other Point of View

            My opinion on your post is that it’s the dumbest thing I’ve seen all day.

            Next?

      2. mimi

        Noone is obligated to like trans people sexually, it doesn’t make them transphobic.

        By your argument, sexual desires can be changed, and therefore does that make homosexual reeducation camps are a valid option? Is sexual desire a “choice” then?

        I don’t like blondes sexually. In fact they are a huge turn off. So are really tall people. It is what it is.

        1. noelplum99

          You aren’t sexually attracted to blondes and tall people? Creepy wierd bigot!
          I suggest you think very very hard and force your sexual desires to include these people.
          Jim (np99)

          1. Anne C. Hanna

            Stop being disingenuous, noelplum99. Nobody says you have to get specifically, instinctively, instantly turned on by people of every possible physical appearance. But if you adamantly refuse to even be *open* to the possibility of becoming interested in a particular person just because of hir hair color, race, assigned gender at birth, etc., then there’s something seriously, creepily, bigotedly wrong with you.

          2. noelplum99

            Anne,
            In your initial post you mentioned creepy, weird and bigoted.
            I will give you bigoted, not interested in that one. I am interested in what was is it creepy? Creepy and creeps are words i hear a lot round these parts but usually to refer to unwanted over attention of a sexual nature. Not sure what you mean by creepy here.
            Also, how is it weird? What does weitd mean, ‘out of the ordinary’ something like that? Personally, i dont see weirdness as a bad thing but as i would imagine men who would outright claim non-attraction to trans women will vastly outnumber trans women, on that definition weirdness is applied to tue wrong target. So i ask: what do you actually mean by ‘weird’ and how is it an insult?
            Jim (np99)

          3. Anne C. Hanna

            Creepy in this case means the kind of thing that makes decent people feel uncomfortable and potentially unsafe in your presence. I would definitely be put off by someone talking about how ze only likes blondes and can’t stand other hair colors (whether I was blonde or otherwise) and would be tempted to start slowly inching away from hir. Someone talking about how unappealing transgendered people are is even worse.

            Weird in the sense that most decent people will find that kind of predilection difficult to comprehend or empathize with, and definitely not acceptable as a social norm. I don’t care if it’s weird (in the sense of being different from the norm) with respect to some imaginary average human. Human averages are not terribly interesting to me, seeing as how they represent almost no actual humans. It’s weird in the sense of being very very far away from a humane, bigotry-averse perspective, and that’s good enough for me.

            Do you agree with these perspectives and just hate the words that I’m using, or is there a substantive disagreement between us?

          4. noelplum99

            Anne,
            We definitely uave some substantive disagreements here.
            Firstly, i accept this is how you feel about such people and that is ofc fine.
            Secondly, i think you throw around ‘decent people’ too loosely. It is just too easy to say ‘decent people feel as i do ergo i am a decent person’
            What your comments refer to is ‘people saying……’. I suppose if someone felt the need for no good reason to say they find bald menunappealing or inuit generally unattractive, i may find that slightly off-putting. But wasn’t the conversation just about people’s preferences and that one group (your ‘bigot-doods’) having no attraction to another group.
            I think the main point is, as you can’t twist anyone’s arm and force them to be attracted to that which they are not it all seems a slightly irrelevant convo in the first place. From my perspective i accept that huge swathes of the worlds population will never be attracted to someone who looks like me – and i have no issue with that whatsoever….. I have one person who finds me attractive and that is all that really matters :).
            Jim (np99)

          5. Anne C. Hanna

            Zinnia in her original post, along with the other commenters here, has already done a pretty good job of elucidating the definition of a decent person, even though she and they may not have used that exact phrase. I’m not going to waste my life spelling it out for you all over again if you’re not going to bother to read what they’ve said, but the short version is: decent people are the ones who aren’t a bunch of fucking transphobic bigots.

            Nobody is going to drill a hole into your skull and insert a chip that forces you to get a hard-on for transgendered people, or brunettes, or anybody else. Nobody is even going to tell you that you have a moral obligation to go out of your way to find sexual partners from whatever groups you don’t find immediately appealing. But plenty of people here *are* telling you that if it’s hugely important to you to make a big thing about how you could never ever be attracted to people of type A, or how you’re only attracted to people of type B, then you’re harboring a bigoted attitude, and you need to check yourself posthaste rather than continuing to inflict that kind of shit on your fellow humans.

            Why is this something you feel a need to get all agitated about such that you’re parsing my words with a fine-toothed comb looking for something to argue with, rather than just shrugging and continuing to enjoy the romantic partnership you appear to have already established for yourself? It’s not like anybody here is gonna call you bigots if you don’t immediately go out and exchange each other for more “politically correct” alternatives. Go ahead and be attracted to whatever particular individuals happen to catch your interest, just don’t be proudly superficial about it.

          6. julian

            Do you get off on being a snippy annoying twit?

            You’ve been nothing but disingenuous on this thread. You’re as bad as Other Point of View.

          7. hall-of-rage

            Anne, I’ve argued against you in the past, but I really like your comments here.

          8. Anne C. Hanna

            hall-of-rage,

            Glad to be of service.

            Whatever else I may do or think, I can’t stand gender policing like this, especially when it comes with a side of violence. And the roots in this particular case are especially disturbing — why is it considered even remotely normal for a guy to respond with revulsion, or even violence, to the discovery that a prospective sexual partner is trans? Because by “making” him attracted to her, she’s “made” him gay, according to his worldview and that of his fellow bigot-d00ds, and any hint of anything other than Kinsey-negative-six heterosexuality and caricature-level conformity to cultural ideals of masculinity puts him at risk for the same kind of discrimination and possible violence from other bigot-d00ds that he’s so ready to dish out to anyone else who’s even faintly gender-nonconforming. We’ve got to challenge that vicious cycle. :/

    3. 13.3
      earth & stars

      No, you didn’t clearly get where I was going with that at all. I’m not talking about who you shag, I’m talking about your views on medical conditions and their treatments. You can say you ‘don’t encourage’ transsexuality, but since that’s like saying you ‘don’t encourage’ cleft palates or multiple sclerosis, I’d like to know what other medical conditions you don’t like and why. Again, this has nothing to do with your choice of partner, so don’t make like it does.

      1. The Other Point of View

        What does it have to do with? The only part of a transperson being a transperson that concerns me is me possibly being intimate with them due to not knowing they’re trans.

        Other than that, I have no issue. To me they’re like anybody else of a different demographic.

        1. earth & stars

          Stop being deliberately obtuse by focusing on your sex life and clarify your previous statement about how you ‘don’t encourage’ transsexuality. Tell us A) why you feel that trans people as a demographic should be discouraged from existing, B) if you have similar thoughts about any other groups and C) if so, which groups those are. You say you don’t have anything against trans people, but that’s not how you’re coming across…

        2. A. Noyd

          Other than that, I have no issue. To me they’re like anybody else of a different demographic.

          Suuuure they are. Except for that little detail about them being unnatural.

    4. 13.4
      edmundog

      “I don’t date women of certain religious beliefs.”

      And therefore, every woman is required to state her religious beliefs up front as soon as you hit on them, just in case they put you out, right?

      1. The Other Point of View

        I’ve come to realize that perhaps that is not a fair expectation.

    5. 13.5
      savannahs.

      Just FYI you are using the word “neo-liberal” incorrectly. Neo-liberal does not mean “ultra liberal” as in the common use of the word “liberal” in a US context (i.e. progressive); instead it refers to economic policies, specifically market globalization and deregulation of the financial sector. That is more typically how the word “liberal” is used in the UK and Europe.

      In fact, many liberals that I know (in the U.S. sense) strongly oppose neo-liberalism. Including me.

      1. The Other Point of View

        Thank you elucidating that point. I truly hadn’t realized that.

  14. 14
    A. Noyd

    The Other Point of View (#13)

    Or maybe they’re just not used to people treating their sex/gender like hair color that can be changed at will.

    Oh, yeah, because that’s transgenderism in a nutshell. Oh, wait… no, it’s not! It’s the flaming bigot version of being trans. You can like what you like, but you can’t decide how reality works based on your preferences. This here? This insistence that being trans is some sort of whim? This is wishful thinking.

    By the same token, perhaps counting on people to be so neo-liberal that you don’t have to share something like that upfront is wishful thinking.

    FFS, no one’s counting on bigots to put aside their bigotry. Again, you’re confusing what’s prudent and what’s moral. The moral thing to do is to work to change society’s acceptance of what’s “reasonable.” You bigots might be the last to get on board, but the rest of us should be putting pressure on you to change by refusing to remain complicit in your justification of your prejudices and by refraining from catering to your expectations. Even if it turns out you can’t be swayed, it will help redirect society’s sympathies away from you bigots and towards your victims.

    And it’s hardly “neo-liberal” to place the accountability on the dudes who find transwomen problematic. But thanks for demonstrating how asking the socially privileged to live up to the conservatives’ pet value of “personal accountability” magically turns it into a liberal thing. If you insist on remaining mired in the pit of your own malicious misapprehensions, you don’t get to blame others for the shit that falls down on you.

    It just means I find it unnormal (not “inhuman”, just not normal) and I don’t have to be attracted to things outside of my comfortable level of normalcy

    Stop lying by pretending anyone is saying you have to be attracted to transwomen. We’re saying if it’s so damn important that you don’t end up in a relationship with a transwoman, then it’s your—and every other bigot’s—job to make your preferences clear before it could become an issue. Your sense of entitlement not withstanding, it’s never the transwoman’s moral responsibility to guess at your bigotry and “come clean” about how the circumstances of her existence might offend you. And the “unnormal” shit? That’s your wishful thinking coming into play again.

    1. 14.1
      The Other Point of View

      I actually agree with that, and perhaps next time you’ll actually read what I wrote to know that.

      1. A. Noyd

        As I have been pointing out since yesterday, you’re mixing up a pragmatic argument with a moral one. We only somewhat agree about the pragmatic element. As for who has the moral responsibility to prevent a relationship between a transwoman and a transphobic dude, you either don’t actually agree with me or you’re contradicting yourself.

        For instance, if you really do agree that the onus is on you to inform your partners of your prejudices, then it makes no sense to characterize doing so as “neo-liberal” (and therefore extreme or unreasonable, since you’re using that term pejoratively).

        Similarly, when you say “since I can’t force somebody to disclose information, then yes, it probably makes sense to just ask”, that conditional phrasing reveals that you still assume the person you’re asking should have told you without your asking. You’re not agreeing that expecting you to divulge your preferences is the most justifiable and moral way to assign responsibility; you’re saying you resort to disclosure in the face of the other person’s failure to inform you they might not fit your ideals.

        Furthermore, your continued defense of what’s pragmatic* ignores what I’m saying about the need to change society. It isn’t “wishful thinking” to take it upon ourselves to yank the pillow of social acceptance out from under bigots when they (you) try to fall back on it. While we can’t suddenly make the whole of society unwelcoming to bigots, we do have the power to refuse them (you) any measure of comfort on an individual level. And, given the way society works, there is no neutrality in choosing not to wield that power.

        ……..
        *Which is largely wrong. See the people telling you how disclosure for transpeople is inherently dangerous.

        1. Sivi

          Can I just offer some respect and admiration for your persistence and eloquence in your comments? I would not be able to keep replying so a) well, and b) politely by this point.

  15. 15
    Timid Atheist

    I am quite aware that transpeople endure a great deal of hardship to simply be who they choose to be. Nobody said otherwise. And nobody said that it was a crime. The beauty of living in this country is that we all take our own personal paths to our own personal happiness. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    As you well point out, they are who they choose to be. They don’t NEED my permission or approval, anymore than I need theirs, or yours, to feel the way I do personally about it.

    Simply put, there’s little reason for them, or you, to be “all rankled up.”

    Little reason except for the fact that trans women often are killed for their “choices.” That seems like a big reason to be against people like you and the people your rhetoric protects (namely the ones doing the physical harm).

    You’re entitled to your own opinion, absolutely. But when your opinion paints people as less than or “unnormal” then you add to the problem of intolerance. Your opinion, despite being against violence, still gives those who commit violence against trans women (and trans men) cover.

    1. 15.1
      punchdrunk

      ‘You can choose to be weird and gross, I won’t hit ya.

      Wait, why you mad? I said I wouldn’t hit you.

      Some people are just so sensitive and PC.’

  16. 16
    The Other Point of View

    ” You’re entitled to your own opinion, absolutely. But when your opinion paints people as less than or “unnormal” then you add to the problem of intolerance. Your opinion, despite being against violence, still gives those who commit violence against trans women (and trans men) cover. ”

    I never really bought this line of “If you don’t like me and unconditionally approve of what I do, then you must hate me.”

    I don’t “hate” transpeople, no matter how many times that’s alleged. And really, the term “transphobe”, while catchy, is misleading. ‘Transphobe’ means I fear them in some way. I don’t. I only fear people who pose a threat.

    1. 16.1
      Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

      NO, it’s not a matter of unconditional approval.

      If you’re not interested with trans* persons for sexual encounters, then fine. You don’t have to sleep with us. But be prepared to find a perfectly normal woman in every way – attractive by a cissexual standard – who is a trans-woman.

      You’re a transphobe because you called trans-women unnatural and abnormal. You’re the same type of bigot who calls gay men and lesbian women abnormal. Except I doubt you do that because you probably have some respect for gay men and lesbian women.

      And cut it with the dictionary humping. Yes, a phobia is an irrational fear. But when “phobia” is attached to words like “homo” or “trans” it means an irrational hatred.

      I’ll stop calling you a transphobe when you stop acting like one.

      1. The Other Point of View

        You seem to think I care what you call me. Let me disabuse you of that false notion, I don’t.

        I have a right to think of something as abnormal and unnatural. You have the right to be offended by my viewpoint.

        The world is large enough of that neither of us has to lose sleep over it. I know I won’t.

        Also, “dictionary humping” to you is “precise” to someone else. Just a thought.

        1. Aoife

          You may have the right to think of something a certain way. You certainly don’t have the right to have that opinion go unchallenged. And you definitely don’t have the right to have your unsubstantiated opinions given the same standing as perspectives backed up with decades of research from any number of different fields. Y’know, the same way that I have every right to tell everyone that the moon is made of green cheese, and no right at all to expect them to take me seriously.

        2. julian

          Of course you won’t lose sleep over it. You’re not part of a minority group that can’t even engage in casual dating without risking getting beaten to a pulp by someone who, a moment ago, was into them.

          You’re not the “abnormal” one.

          But you are the one encouraging transphobia and legitimizing bigotry.

      2. Franklin McPherson

        You people are so hypocritical! You’re willing to call a straight man a transphobe or whatever because he only wants to sleep with biological women. Yet you won’t dare, ever, to call a gay man a heterophobe because he only wants to sleep with men or call a butch lesbian a heterophobe because she doesn’t want 10 inches of man-meat in her. Jesus Christ.

  17. 17
    The Other Point of View

    “While we can’t suddenly make the whole of society unwelcoming to bigots, we do have the power to refuse them (you) any measure of comfort on an individual level.”

    See here’s the problem I find with this statement. You DON’T HAVE the power to take comfort from me nor grant it. I have my convictions and personal beliefs. And while they may change as I grow and learn, they’ll never change because A. Noyd ordered me to do so.

    On the flip side of that, I’m not here to convince you that being trans is wrong and evil. Besides, it isn’t.

    Now, as to the rest of your statement, I see your point. Perhaps it is the sign of the more mature person to simply be upfront with their preferences since they have them and it’s nobody else’s job to meet or defy them. I hadn’t thought of it that way before.

    1. 17.1
      earth & stars

      One minute trans women are so far outside of your comfort zone that you won’t go anywhere near them for some vague unspecified reason, then two minutes later, you’re solid as a rock and nobody has the power to make you uncomfortable. You can’t have it both ways, so make up your mind.

      1. The Other Point of View

        I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were trying to clever and missed the mark.

        I don’t want any romantic involvement with a transperson. I didn’t say I’d get up from my seat if they sat next to me on the bus, or that if I was flirting with one and they revealed they were trans I’d be like “Arrr! Gross!”. Actually, I’d probably congratulate them on looking so attractive.

        How you translated that to they make me uncomfortable and I would go near them for some vague reason is an assertion of your own making.

        1. Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

          So you’d be attracted to them. You’d be interested in them. You’d be flirting with them. Then they’d reveal their trans nature and you’d suddenly be disinterested?

          Do you see the fucking problem?

          It has nothing to do with what they are or how they look, it has to do with your transphobia.

          1. The Other Point of View

            No, I don’t see the problem.

          2. Aoife

            The problem: if you don’t think there’s anything wrong with being trans*, then why would a person’s trans status make you lose all attraction to them?

  18. 18
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    I don’t know, since I feel old and dull and I’m married and I’m long past the dating stage of my life, but as a fairly grown up straight cis male I’ve got a few thoughts:

    - I don’t know how I would react if I was in a situation where I suddenly found out that a woman I was attracted to is trans, but I hope I wouldn’t be too much of an asshole and I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t react violently.

    - On some level, if I’m not interested in trans women then it is my responsibility to make that clear up front, the same way I’m not interested in dating Republicans or theists or women who don’t like horror movies or watch too much reality TV or who listen to rap music exclusively.

    - And hell, I don’t know. Maybe you find the person who you “fit” with emotionally and then they don’t “fit” physically the way you expect, and you get over it and give it a fucking try. If I identify as male and I’m attracted to someone who someone who identifies as female, then what’s the big deal?**

    - In the grand scheme of things, I’m less and less convinced that any of this should matter enough to cis people, and it matters so much to trans people, that the burden should be on us cis people to suck it the fuck up and be at very minimum sympathetic and empathetic.

    **There are issues of homophobia that might come up but shouldn’t, and homophobia is bullshit and should be stomped on like a bug.

    1. 18.1
      The Other Point of View

      ” And hell, I don’t know. Maybe you find the person who you “fit” with emotionally and then they don’t “fit” physically the way you expect, and you get over it and give it a fucking try. ”

      - Or maybe you say “You’re very beautiful, but I’m not interested.”

      ” In the grand scheme of things, I’m less and less convinced that any of this should matter enough to cis people, and it matters so much to trans people, that the burden should be on us cis people to suck it the fuck up and be at very minimum sympathetic and empathetic. ”

      - Agreed.

      1. Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

        Dude, I am NOT on your team.

        1. The Other Point of View

          I have no idea what that means. Additionally, I didn’t think there were teams.

          I agree with one of your statements, and I don’t with the other.

          Problem?

          1. Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

            Here’s what you had to say:

            Not quite. I consider homosexuality immoral. And if asked, I’ll say so, to any gay or straight person.

            You are an open, proud bigot. I am not. Wherever you claim to agree with me is an accident where you aren’t as stupid on that issue as you are generally, not because we share much in common. You’re an asshole, and I AM NOT ON YOUR TEAM.

  19. 19
    The Other Point of View

    ” Stop being deliberately obtuse by focusing on your sex life and clarify your previous statement about how you ‘don’t encourage’ transsexuality. Tell us A) why you feel that trans people as a demographic should be discouraged from existing, B) if you have similar thoughts about any other groups and C) if so, which groups those are. You say you don’t have anything against trans people, but that’s not how you’re coming across… ”

    Such arrogance. You’re not important enough for me to need to be obtuse. I’m discussing my sex life because that was where my issue was, and that’s where my initial comment was concerned. I’m not obligated to expound on it any further.

    Now, if you meant to say “Well OPoV, in talking about this, you said that, and I’d like to hear more,” well I’ll answer that.

    I don’t believe that transpeople shouldn’t exist. The only people who shouldn’t exist are those who cause harm to others. By and large, transpeople want to be left alone, so they tend not to pose a danger to anyone. That view applies to all people everywhere.

    I can feel that someone is doing something abnormal and acknowledge that it’s harmless and completely legal, and totally their choice, and say “Hey, whatever.”

  20. 20
    The Other Point of View

    ” You’re the same type of bigot who calls gay men and lesbian women abnormal. Except I doubt you do that because you probably have some respect for gay men and lesbian women. ”

    Not quite. I consider homosexuality immoral. And if asked, I’ll say so, to any gay or straight person.

    Again, I don’t believe in being intimidated into not exercising my right to think how I think so long as I’m not trying to force others to think how I think.

    1. 20.1
      Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

      Holy fuck, so on top of transphobia you’re also a homophobe?

      God, you’re an asshole.

      1. The Other Point of View

        (Shrug) You’re as entitled to your opinion as I am.

        1. SallyStrange

          Wrong. Those whose opinions are supported by facts–i.e., people who recognize that homosexuality, as a general phenomenon, harms nobody–are more entitled to their opinions than those whose opinions run contrary to the facts–i.e., you, who thinks it’s “immoral” to be homosexual. If you’re serious then your definition of morality is so twisted as to be useless.

          1. The Other Point of View

            If you’d read the rest of my posts, you’d see that I firmly fall in the camp of “there’s no reason to think homosexuality or transgenderism in any way harms anybody”.

            In either event, I’ll always reject the idea that I need permission to have or express my views on any subject at any given time.

    2. 20.2
      Aoife

      Wooooah. What, precisely, is immoral about being gay or lesbian? Please do explain. In as much detail as you like.

  21. 21
    punchdrunk

    The people telling you it’s a choice, telling you it’s immoral, are lying to you. About so many things.
    Your ‘opinions’ contribute to human suffering. That’s the real immorality.

    1. 21.1
      The Other Point of View

      No. The people who are contributing to human suffering are contributing to human suffering.

      The guy that says “Fucking tranny should’ve told me. I’m totally going to kill them,” has nothing to do the guy who says “I’d really like to know if this is a ciswoman so we don’t have any unpleasant revelations later.”

      I know the liberal media loves to say the two are directly related but it’s not quite true.

      1. punchdrunk

        Bigotry isn’t immoral, but homosexuality is.
        All righty then.

      2. Aoife

        The liberal media, all the social sciences, history, the experiences of thousands upon thousands of trans* people… funny, how all of those agree, and yet your precious ‘opinion’ is every bit as valuable.

        1. The Other Point of View

          No. When it comes to my life and my choice of partner, actually my opinion trumps all the others.

  22. 22
    The Other Point of View

    ” You are an open, proud bigot. I am not. Wherever you claim to agree with me is an accident where you aren’t as stupid on that issue as you are generally, not because we share much in common. You’re an asshole, and I AM NOT ON YOUR TEAM. ”

    Well then, here’s a cookie for you. But while your use of caps lock is impressive, I don’t need you to inform me that you are on my team.

    If you’re so threatened and so juvenile that the mere fact I say I agree with you on some point means you have to make a big show that “No! I denounce this asshole in our midst!” lest somebody think you agree with me, then by all means, do so.

    But please don’t frame this as me attempting to seek some sort of camaraderie with you. I’m not. If you say something and I agree with it, I will say so. If you say something and I don’t I’ll also say so. I don’t need neither your approval or your camaraderie to do so, and I don’t seek them.

    1. 22.1
      Nepenthe

      You’ve named yourself “The Other Point of View”? Aren’t y’all–and by y’all I mean “trolls”–supposed to at least pretend not to spew douchy shit on the internet solely for the purpose of being asshats and upsetting people?

      1. The Other Point of View

        I was going to give you the standard response I reserve for posts like yours. But, instead I’ll say this:

        Though I don’t consider myself an “asshat”, I am not obligated to argue the point with anyone who thinks I am. However, I can say this, well aware that you have nothing but my word to go on, am not here “spew douche shit” for the sole purpose of “upsetting” people.

        I happen to be believe what I believe. I have the convictions I have. They are as much a part of me as your apparent disdain for me and my kind is to you. Quite frankly, it’s beneath me to have views just to piss people off on the internet, that would imply a level of importance nobody here has.

        So no, I don’t think I should “pretend” not to be who I am so that people aren’t offended by my views, just as I refuse to pretend I believe things I don’t just to gain their favor.

        Nobody has the right to demand that of transpeople, of gays, of liberals, or of anybody else.

        And nobody will demand it of me.

  23. 23
    A. Noyd

    The Other Point of View (#17)

    You DON’T HAVE the power to take comfort from me nor grant it.

    Oh, you poor dears, deceiving yourselves that you go unaffected by others’ regard. With your fantasies that you made up your minds independent of emotions. With your delusions of island-hood.  What was that about wishful thinking?  Deny it all you like, but you do look for validation in the people around you.  That’s part of being human.

    Anyway, whether you bigots spread your idiocy at will—which does harm, whatever lies you like to tell yourself—depends on how much concern you have over the consequences of doing so.  You tend to read a failure to challenge you as tacit approval.  I have the power to withhold that tacit approval by speaking out. To force you not to take me for granted. You already know wearing your bigot badge makes you unwelcome here (FtB), and I can make you aware of that everywhere we might cross paths. The more others join me, the less comfortable the world becomes for you. (And before you accuse me of overselling myself, remember how I said this: Even if it turns out you can’t be swayed, it will help redirect society’s sympathies away from you bigots and towards your victims.)

    Perhaps it is the sign of the more mature person to simply be upfront with their preferences since they have them and it’s nobody else’s job to meet or defy them.

    Well, you’ve caught on to half of my point. But it’s not about maturity, it’s about moral obligation. But if you think homosexuality can be immoral, your understanding of morality is severely handicapped.

    1. 23.1
      The Other Point of View

      I didn’t say I’m unmoved by the opinions of others. I’m saying that, as self-important as you come off, you actually strike me as somebody who believes what you believe because you honestly believe you’re right. You have convictions.

      I couldn’t see you logging on to, say, a Tea Party chatroom and being swayed to change your opinion to appease them. I’m no different in that way.

      Can you say I’m not welcome at FtB? You can say whatever you want, as you can see, it doesn’t stop me from posting. And I assure you A. Noyd, should we meet face to face, you’d likewise have no power to stop me from expressing myself.

      See, that’s just it, you assume I’m here to “spread my bigotry”. If you’d read what I wrote, you see, that’s not my aim. I’m not a politician and you’re not some lobbyist whose support I need to further my platform. I’m a person like you who goes to work to pay bills and go about my business.

      So please, you and everybody here go ahead and turn up the fire as it were. Even if I wind up the one person thinking what I think surrounded by you and your pals calling me a “dishonest patronizing ass”, I’ll still be true to my convictions.

      And for your education, I WANT you do redirect society’s sympathies to my “victims” (though I’m not aware of anyone I’ve committed any crime against, but anyway). I want to see transpeople left alone to live their lives as they see fit, so your victory would only be applauded.

      But you won’t silence me. And contrary to what Nepenthe says, I’ll never pretend to be somebody I’m not.

      1. Nepenthe

        Oh! So you do believe what you’re saying, but you’re not trying to convince anyone and you’re not really trying to have a civil discussion? (Dropping a turd like your opinion that the blogmistress and a great deal of her readership are immoral on multiple levels without even pretending to back that up kinda precludes the “civil discussion” angle.)

        I guess I can only conclude that you’re just wanking about your freedom to have an (stupid) opinion where you know that opinion is not welcome. Well, I guess it’s better to do that here than a public park.

        And it still makes you a troll.

        1. The Other Point of View

          Where am I not trying to have a civil discussion? Civil discussion doesn’t mean I jump to agree with you.

          And what exactly does it matter if my opinion isn’t welcome? So because my opinion is unwelcome here I’m supposed to supress it. Yeah, okay.

          Perhaps when you stop composing insipid metaphors you might actually look up the definition of troll.

  24. 24
    flybirdiefly

    Wait… I’m a bit confused. Why does every one have to have the same cookie cutter belief just so they don’t get called “homophob” or “transphobe”? Do I feel th and at trans men AND trans women should disclose? Absolutly. I think that is fair for both parties. It gives them the choice to say “yay” or “nay” to having that sexual encounter. To be honest, I think most of you are bullies. You wsnt tolerance and acceptance yet you are the first to start slinging names and judgements. DoI care if your gay or a trans? No, I could really care less. What I do care about is those who don’t agree with the lifestyle gets the same freedom to express as you. Why does everyone have to bow down and nid and agree with you? Shame on you. You just bullies.

    1. 24.1
      Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

      Disclosure can result in abuse, assault, or death.

    2. 24.2
      punchdrunk

      Because it’s not a ‘lifestyle’. Because labeling people disgusting, immoral freaks is harmful. Because meeting those opinions with derision, anger, and ridicule is making them harmful to the bigot instead of the victim.
      You can believe whatever you want. You can believe that black people are intellectually inferior to whites. You can believe that women are less capable than men. You can believe that gay people are inherently immoral. You can’t expect anyone to go along with that ancient, oppressive bullshit.
      Bullies, my ass.

      1. The Other Point of View

        “Because labeling people disgusting, immoral freaks is harmful.”

        I agree. And I don’t think they’re disgusting or freaks.

        ” You can’t expect anyone to go along with that ancient, oppressive bullshit. ”

        I didn’t expect anything of anyone. I don’t think anybody did or does.

        1. punchdrunk

          Paraphrasing subtext.

          1. The Other Point of View

            Really, I’m not trying to troll you, as it were. But, could you elaborate on this please.

    3. 24.3
      A. Noyd

      Wow, is there anything in what you wrote that isn’t a vapid talking point? If you actually want to cure your confusion, you can make the first step towards showing you’re acting in good faith by reading the comment thread where some of your “questions” have already been answered.

    4. 24.4
      Aoife

      If trans* people ‘should’ disclose their trans* status, then why not cis people? Why shouldn’t all cis people be obligated to disclose their cis status to new people? Just in case, y’know?

      I mean, the vast majority of transphobic violence is committed by cis people. Shouldn’t people have a right to know that the person they’re getting involved with is cis?

  25. 25
    flybirdiefly

    I actuallly read every comment, thank you. Regardless, it comes down to the same thing. It is either “accept whateverwe say or do or your a bugot and a homophobic moron.” How is that even right? You brow beat people who disagree and you cry foul when people don’t jump on the sae boat as you. You keep saying dislisure means death and violence, how is NOT disclosing working for you? Oh rigght… Violence and death are still part of the picture. I lost repect for your movement when you stopped letting others keep their own beliefs. I stand by the term for you.. Bullie and that includes your ass too.

    1. 25.1
      The Other Point of View

      I appreciate your respect for free opinion but I cannot agree with losing respect for the movement.

      Like I said, I want A. Noyd and his/her kind to have us reach the point where beating a woman for discovering she was a man is just an unacceptable as beating her because she’s not a natural blonde, and they both get the same severe sentence.

      Honestly, I realize some of the “fuck you transphobe moron” rhetoric is coming from the fact that people who tangentially share beliefs with me have actually killed people.

      That’s not acceptable. I can take name-calling if that kind of thing stops.

    2. 25.2
      A. Noyd

      I actuallly read every comment, thank you.

      Too bad there’s no evidence of that in your “questions.”

      It is either “accept whateverwe say or do or your a bugot and a homophobic moron.” How is that even right?

      Maybe it’s not right because you made that up. It’s not about accepting whatever we say. It’s that people who espouse bigotry and homophobia rightly get called bigots and homophobes. You know, you’re doing a good job of proving the point I was trying to make to The Other Point of View. You squirm at being called those things because society agrees more and more they’re bad things to be, and it’s uncomfortable to be labeled as something society disapproves of. But complaining when people call you what you are isn’t going to fix anything. If it matters so much that you’re not called a bigot, then don’t share your bigotry. Keep your beliefs all you want, just keep them to yourself.

    3. 25.3
      lochaber

      must be that your reading comprehension skills are even more lacking then your grasp of spelling and grammar…

  26. 26
    A. Noyd

    @The Other Point of View

    You know, I started making a more comprehensive reply to your latest, but there’s just so much that needs correcting that it’s not worth it. You don’t read carefully and you don’t understand basic concepts like indirect influence. Getting through to you is like trying to hammer through a coconut with a plastic spoon. (Not to get you to agree with me, but to get you to see what I mean.) And anyway, my power against bigots like you is not dependent on you having an accurate understanding of my points.

    1. 26.1
      The Other Point of View

      And the actual flimsiness of your power is not increased by your overestimation of said power.

    2. 26.2
      The Other Point of View

      “You squirm at being called those things because society agrees more and more they’re bad things to be, and it’s uncomfortable to be labeled as something society disapproves of.”

      You assume someone is squirming. Nobody is.

      I’m interested to hear where you’re coming from as I feel there is merit in your view. But you responding with high-school name-calling makes me shake my head, but not nearly squirm.

      No, nobody is responding with “Oh, gosh! My feeeeeelingz! Please don’t hurt them.” I myself am saying “I don’t agree with you. I don’t have to, anymore than you have to agree with me,” and I’m calling out what I perceive to be statements of arrogance and emotion rather than fact. You of course can agree or ignore it at will.

      But, no I will NOT keep them to myself. Because as you said, if I did that, you and your kind would deem that to be endorsement of your tactics. I feel it necessary to remind people like you that you can name-call and boast about whatever power you think you have.

      And that’s about the extent of your capabilities.

      1. Nepenthe

        Do you really think that trans folk are unaware of people like you? Do you think that gay and lesbian folk are unaware the popular opinion that they are immoral? Do you think you’re somehow enlightening us?

        Or are you just Standing Up to declare your Opinion and be Counted– regardless of whether anyone here gives a shit what The Other Point of View thinks–which you have the Right to Have–regardless of whether you can defend it. I’m not sure if you realize this, but opinions are like assholes: everyone has one, but some stink more than others. So, thanks for showing us yours. That’s very nice. Now piss off.

        1. The Other Point of View

          I’m not sure if you realize this, but opinions are like assholes: everyone has one, but some stink more than others. So, thanks for showing us yours. That’s very nice. Now piss off.

          And if I choose not to; you’ll do….what….exactly??

          1. Nepenthe

            You remind me of a six year old who, when his sister asks him to stop poking her, says “Make me!”. But your juvenile power play is noted.

      2. A. Noyd

        You assume someone is squirming. Nobody is.

        Why are you quoting something I wrote to someone else and responding as if I were talking to you? Why are presuming to call me out as arrogant when you’re either speaking for someone else or assuming all my replies are meant for you?

        Because as you said, if I did that, you and your kind would deem that to be endorsement of your tactics.

        Disempowering bigots by taking away their social support should be endorsed. As for “name calling,” saying someone is a bigot for expressing unreasoning hatred and intolerance of a group* is no more “name calling” than labeling someone who twirls about a stage in toe shoes a “ballerina.” You should ask yourself why you’re against the “tactics” of calling things what they are and refusing to tolerate harmful behavior. What, exactly, is so wrong with using honest language and social disapproval against bigots?

        Anyway, consider those questions rhetorical. Reply if you like, but I’m done talking to you.

        ……
        *And calling gays immoral and transwomen unnatural is intolerant. Having such an aversion to sleeping with a transwoman that her being trans overwhelms every other consideration you make about her attractiveness is intolerant and hateful.

  27. 27
    katansi

    The violence part is and always will be bullshit but I think it’s reasonable to want to know if your partner’s secondary sexual characteristics have changed to match their psyche. If I wanted my own biological children with a specific partner’s genes in play it would matter to me immensely that I knew before I got in any way emotionally involved with someone who couldn’t provide me with that. Same with a vasectomy or tubal ligation or hysterectomy or some sort of cancer that has knocked that option out of play. If something changes your reproductive ability I think it’s respectful to mention that very early on in the relationship if the relationship is going to be heterosexual. Gay or lesbian couples will already have some fertility work done outside of just regular PIV sex for babies, so I can’t see why it would matter there. Hell, then it’s kind of useful to have originally different reproductive organs. That is the only topic where I think mentioning being trans matters. Hopefully in the future medical science will make getting your own genetic organs in the correct reproductive option to match the new body as well or figure out petri dish babies better so that issue will just disappear.

  28. 28
    Sivi

    Wow, I am amazed by the patience of the better commentariat here.

    As a brief note, to other cis straight dudes, can we refrain from patting ourselves on the back by going “You know, by gum, I would sleep with a trans woman.” It’s uncomfortably self-congratulatory for what is, after all, an admission that as a straight dude you would sleep with a woman.

    Like, it’s a good realization to have, but the fact that we’ve had to have it isn’t something we ought to be trumpeting. It’d be like following a black woman’s blog and going “You know, after reading your blog I’ve realized as a white dude I would sleep with a black woman.”

    Other people have made the good point, as above, that if hypothetical bigot Y has decided to sleep with trans woman X, he’s obviously found her attractive, and if he can’t deal that’s his own problem, and one of those situations where we can blame both the individual bigot as well as broader societal bigotry which makes cis men feel like being attracted to a trans woman makes them somehow less of a man.

    1. 28.1
      Elixa

      You know, nobody is obligated to want to have sex with you, even if you are trans.

      1. Sivi

        No, I understand that. But there’s a difference between, say, a gay man ruling out women, and a straight dude ruling out trans women, since the latter is him saying “you are actually a dude”.

        Note the problem here – a straight dude who automatically rules out trans women. The problem is not a straight dude who doesn’t want to sleep with A trans woman.

        As I said, while it’s the the same thing, since there’s a ton of different context, it is reminiscent of white guys who say they aren’t attracted to black women. It’s one thing to say you don’t find a particular black woman attractive (though, per usual standards of politeness, it’s best to keep your mouth shut in that circumstance), but it’s entirely another to say you don’t find an entire heterogenous group of people attractive. It means you think you can typify them sufficiently well to rule out all permutations of the group, which is why people talk about sexual racial preferences as racist.

        Similarly, saying “I’d never sleep with a trans* person” makes so many assumptions about trans* people that it’s essentially a transphobic statement.

        My major point, though, was that going on about how you would totally sleep with a trans* person, or someone from another racial group, is condescending as fuck and entirely misses the point.

        1. Franklin McPherson

          Bullshit. A white guy not wanting to have sex with black women is not racist. So, since a straight man not wanting to sleep with ANY transwoman makes him a bigot, what aboout a homosexual man who doesn’t want to sleep with ANY woman? What does that make him? You surely wouldn’t call him a bigot, because, after all, sexual orientation is biological and thus can’t be changed? So when it comes to a gay man not wanting to sleep with girls, it’s just his preference and everyone should respect that, right? Yet when it comes to a heterosexual man, he’s a bigot for not wanting to sleep wit a transwoman, because, after all, if you really like a person, it shouldn’t matter whats in between (or not in between or used to be in between) their legs. As long as they’re a good person on the inside, you should like them for them. But I see that line of reasoning is only applied to heterosexuals, for some reason, gays and lesbians are exempt. Why won’t you tell a gay man he’s bigoted against women for not wanting to sleep with them. After all, he shouldn’t care that she has a vagina, he should be attracted to the “whole person”.

  29. 29
    The Other Point of View

    Why are you quoting something I wrote to someone else and responding as if I were talking to you? Why are presuming to call me out as arrogant when you’re either speaking for someone else or assuming all my replies are meant for you?

    Whether or not your replies are meant for me or not (though you do mention me plenty in your posts to others) is not the point.

    If you make a statement I think needs rebutting, then I’ll do that.

    You should ask yourself why you’re against the “tactics” of calling things what they are and refusing to tolerate harmful behavior. What, exactly, is so wrong with using honest language and social disapproval against bigots?

    Those aren’t the tactics I’m talking about. I’m talking about constantly conflating a view with another. I’m talking about thinking you’ll ever have the clout to make somebody do or say what you want.

    As I said, I want you to reach the place where beating a transwoman or man for not disclosing to you gets the same severe punishment. What I’m trying to get you to see is that I am not an obstacle to that objective.

    And moreover, I want you to see that you don’t have the power to silence me or coerce me into changing my views. You do have the power to state your point and present your thoughts. At which point I’ll either agree or disagree.

  30. 30
    The Other Point of View

    You remind me of a six year old who, when his sister asks him to stop poking her, says “Make me!”. But your juvenile power play is noted.

    Ah, Nepenthe, you’re even more a simpleton than I first realized.

    Nobody is poking you, you poor child. I am stating my views, as is my right. It is you who ordered me to piss off. And like most wanna-be tough-guys, you’re offended because I dare to suggest that I don’t need to bend to your tantrums.

    Grow up.

    1. 30.1
      SallyStrange

      *poke* *poke*

      “Stop poking me!”

      “I’m not poking you!”

      *poke* *poke*

      Yes, very childish.

  31. 31
    Timid Atheist

    You keep saying dislisure means death and violence, how is NOT disclosing working for you? Oh rigght… Violence and death are still part of the picture.

    This is some scary shit right here.

    Your reasoning for trans* women to disclose is that they’ll get hurt or killed either way, so they should at least make the bigots hurting and killing them have a chance to do it sooner?

    The problem with demanding disclosure is that you’re putting the cart before the horse. You want everything up front and laid out perfectly, but that only benefits one group of people, the transphobes. They are the ones with privilege and they are the ones who should be educated and prosecuted when they harm other people for being “different.”

    And yes, everyone should be educated about trans* issues. As well as racism, sexism, heterosexism, ableism, and so forth.

    Sadly, as most places can’t even get “normal” sex ed right, it’s up to parents, teachers, friends to set things right whenever they can. and that is especially true of people who want to support the under privileged, who have porivilege them selves.

    1. 31.1
      The Other Point of View

      I didn’t see it before, but I completely see the logic in this now.

    2. 31.2
      nonviolentrage

      “You want everything up front and laid out perfectly, but that only benefits one group of people, the transphobes.”

      Yes. This.

      I literally had a TSA agent tell me that transphobia would never happen in the Albany airport–that a transgender person should just “tell someone before they go in the machines”, somehow imagining THAT would prevent them feeling their privacy violated, or likely getting harassed.

      (I’m not even trans, I was just wearing a “legalize trans*” shirt. Since they no longer ask why we opt out.)

  32. 32
    The Other Point of View

    Looking over these comments and the post from Leftygirl, I see I was wrong to use the words “abnormal” and “unnatural”. It’s not my place to judge what does or does not occur normally.

    So my apologies there. I was wrong.

    1. 32.1
      savannahs.

      Acknowledged.

      -Savannah (aka leftytgirl)

  33. 33
    hlfk

    I don’t disagree with this at all. I completely agree that there’s no reason to get violent with someone just because their genitals aren’t what you expected. I suspect a fear of rape might be present in some men who think that way, but I don’t know what it is that makes a person think it’s OK to attack another person like that; whatever it is, it’s wrong.

    But I do think it is wise & considerate to disclose at some point to people you’re dating, because at some point, they need to know. I am a genderqueer female attracted to women. I’m a bit bi I guess, in that I can also be attracted to men, but I don’t like dick. So I would date a transman, but not a cisman. One of my good friends is a transwoman I find attractive; but when she flirted with me when we first met, I didn’t take her up on it, because I don’t think it would be fair to lead her on- I will never be able to enjoy having sex with her because what I like sexually is vagina. Now, if she had completed SRS surgery & had a vagina, I wouldn’t care at all what she used to have & she wouldn’t need to tell me about it as far as I’m concerned- but it would benefit her to, because it’s not something that you can keep a secret forever; someday your Aunt Betty might accidentally call you “Harold” or something, & that’s an awkward way to have that conversation. It’s like trying to keep it a secret that you were born in Canada or something- it shouldn’t matter to the other person anyway, & if it does, you don’t need to be with a person like that.

  34. 34
    Cernunnus

    Violence is never an appropriate response. Ever.

    Gender identity, however, is relevant to intimacy, physical and otherwise, and should be discussed at the appropriate time.

    It’s that simple.

  35. 35
    The Other Point of View

    The problem: if you don’t think there’s anything wrong with being trans*, then why would a person’s trans status make you lose all attraction to them?

    I didn’t explain that properly. I only meant that I can separate my person opinions and beliefs on a given situation or person from giving them the full freedom to do whatever it is they wish so long as they are not harming another.

    I believe Catholics have it all wrong, but there’s nothing “wrong” with being Catholic.

  36. 36
    Webseite

    I understand about half of it, but you really only need to know that she’s gorgeous and German speaking women are the best :D

  37. 37
    Soli Deo Gloria

    You are trying to rationalize dishonesty. Like a married man who initiates a relationship claiming to be single. You must know deep down this is sleazy and morally repugnant.

    1. 37.1
      Timid Atheist

      Your analogy is not the same. A married man doesn’t have to fear being killed or beaten by the woman he lied to about being single. He also doesn’t have to fear being killed or beaten if he does choose to tell her before initiating a relationship.

    2. 37.2
      nakarti

      Soli: Quit trying to rationalize violence.

      I see this as more an aspect of homophobia: before I totally accepted that homosexuals were a normal part of the population, and importantly that accepting them had no bearing on my own orientation, trans women bothered me in the sense of “That was a man, but (s)he’s hot, so what does that say about me…” Now having accepted that homosexuality is not a threat, neither are trans* a threat.

      Because of this change I in my way of thinking, I can accept that these people are all just people, until they become friends and their life stories have a different value; because they’re friends.

      What I’m trying to say is this: treat people equally until they give you a real reason; like cheating on you, stealing from you, saving you (from)something, being treated like shit by your friends, or having a demonstrated advantage or disadvantage in life. Gay is not contagious. Girl its not contagious. Guy is not contagious. And being trans* is just an attempt to make your body match which of those you were born with.

  38. 38
    mimi

    First he buys his bride then he kills her. Repulsive on so many levels. Good for him he will be going to jail in Turkey.

    http://www.dreamindemon.com/forums/showthread.php?58530-Chris-Collier-bought-his-bride-then-killed-her-because-she-used-to-be-a-man&p=646758#post646758

  39. 39
    eupraxis

    I have a question re: cis-sexism, and I am asking this in all seriousness. If anyone deems this an improper question, please just ignore it. I am not trolling.

    If someone, who in all other respects (whatever they could be) is acceptable as a mate to another person, but who is transgendered and is thereby, and only for that reason, rejected by that other person, is the latter bigoted and sexist?

    Eupraxis

    1. 39.1
      leftwingfox

      I would say yes.

      If the two people are already physically attracted and emotionally compatible, the fact that one used to be different than they are now should not be a dealbreaker.

      We see it as sexist if a man considers the lack of an unbroken hymen to be a dealbreaker. We consider it racist if one dumped their partner because they later discovered they had mixed race ancestry that wasn’t readily apparent. It seems foolish to consider dumping an attractive partner just because they had cosmetic surgery at some point.

      Once, culture privileged the view that virginity was crucial in a wife, or that having a partner of a different race was abhorrent. Today, we see the sex a person was assigned at birth to be more important than the person they choose, but that does not indicate that such a belief is valid, or justified; merely that it is reinforced culturally.

  40. 40
    Jafafa Hots

    I can’t even begin to count how many TV show episodes and movie subplots have had this as the “dilemma” or “joke.”
    Just saw one yesterday.

  41. 41
    TotallyFreeThinker

    Wow, seeing a lot of presumptuous accusations of people being bigots in these comments. Statements about a condition being “not normal/natural” need not, in any way, imply bigotry. Because something is not natural or normal doesn’t mean there’s anything “wrong” with it in whatever sense of the word. Don’t fall into the trap of this fallacious appeal to nature that our friends the bigots tend to stumble into so readily and unwittingly. The words “normal” and “natural” only reflect the extent at which a condition/phenomenon occurs commonly in society/nature.

    Of course, when a person firmly (and often religiously) believes that “everything that deviates from the norm is inherently bad/wrong”, then calling someone(‘s condition) unnatural/abnormal would certainly be meant as an insult and yes, that person would clearly be a bigot. But that is certainly not the only way the normalcy/naturalness of the trans condition could be relevant to this discussion.

    Because of certain natural preferences/aversions and social conditioning, some people will feel awkward or uncomfortable at the idea of having a relationship with a trans person. This is a feeling ingrained in their minds, not a position they willfully choose. As such, they can’t really be blamed (for the way they feel, not the way they choose to act on those feelings thankyouverymuch). Do these feelings make these people bigots? Only when they fully embrace such feelings and (willfully and/or ignorantly) misuse them to fuel a completely unjustified hatred towards a certain group of fellow human beings.

    So what are these to-some-extent excusable feelings I’m talking about?

    The most obvious feelings of uncomfortableness would be with pre-ops. It’s very common for heterosexual people to be grossed-out to some extent by the thought of “doing stuff” with (or just the sight of) reproductive organs belonging to people of the same sex (most prevalent among males, and the gay equivalent appears to be a lot less common). If I started a relationship with a girl who eventually tells me she has a “thingy” down there, in a more optimistic scenario, I’d tell her that sex would be out of the question until said thingy had been removed (and I’d compulsively avoid any contact with her crotch until after earlier-subtly-mentioned surgery). For many people, however, that revelation would easily be enough of an off-putter to end the relationship that very instant.

    Less obvious are the potential uncomfortable feelings regarding post-ops. But still, it can be hard to just shrug off the awkward thought that your partner was once of the other sex (even if you know full well that it only feels awkward because you’ve been conditioned to feel that way by a cisnormative society). Additionally, the same problem as with pre-ops arises when the person with the problem (yup, I’m talking about the cis person) happens to have a vibrant imagination and the compulsion to visualize that imagination. The latter is part of the reason why I’d be totally okay with it if a hypothetical girlfriend didn’t tell me that she used to have male parts (trying really hard not to visualize that right now).

    So while I understand some cis people’s desire (and I hope that I’ve been able to show that not all of them are bigots) to have disclosure occur at very early stages of a relationship, it really comes down to the trans person whether he/she wants to disclose this very personal information and when. (Though for pre-ops, disclosure is bound to become necessary if the relationship becomes “intimate”, obviously.)

  42. 42
    Honest John

    “If there is no God, then everything is permitted.” – Fyodor Dostoyevsky in “The Brothers Karamazov”
    How do you atheists deal with this stark statement?

    To these atheists, almost everything under the sun is okay, except for violence and “bigotry” (the new heresy in modern, decadent Western society). “-phobe” is the new witch. “Intolerant” is the new infidel. Tell me, without one or more gods on your side, where do you get the authority to call “bigotry” wrong? I can understand the opposition to violence, but all of these edicts against “thought-crimes” would make even Yahweh, Jesus, and Allah blush! You atheists make the Inquisition look like a tea party, Stalin look like a Care Bear, and the holocaust look like an episode of “My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic” that all the bronies get hard for, LOL.

  1. 43
    A commenter makes an excellent point | Zinnia Jones

    [...] my last post about trans people and “disclosure” in relationships, where many people seem to have missed the point entirely and launched into the [...]

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite="" class=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>