Aug 18 2012

Skeptical D00ds Are Not Skeptical About Their Own Gross Misogyny

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I was exactly what a Boy’s Club wanted. I was a young, not-hideous woman who passionately supported their cause. I made them look diverse without them having to address their minority-repelling privilege. They liked that I joked about sex and boobs not because it was empowering for me, but because they saw it as a pass to oggle and objectify. But the Boy’s Club rescinds its invitation once they realize you’re a rabble-rousing feminist. I was welcome at TAM when I was talking about a boob joke, but now I’m persona non grata for caring about sexual harassment. I used to receive numerous comments about how hot and attractive I was, but when I politely asked for people to keep the discussion professional, the comments morphed into how I was an ugly cunt. I was once considered an up-and-coming student leader, but now I’m accused of destroying the movement.

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34 comments

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1

Ross

August 18, 2012 at 6:59 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Men are shit, men are dogs.
2

Trebuchet

August 18, 2012 at 7:19 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Men are shit, men are dogs.

Surely you mean “Menne are shitte, menne are fucken dogges.” You’ve got to consider where you’re posting.

Off to read Jen’s post now!
3

shockna

August 18, 2012 at 7:25 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Ross @ 2:

Only when they’re misogynists. It’s somewhat easier to not be a shitbag when you don’t have a raging sense of misogyny.
4

laura

August 18, 2012 at 8:36 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

I really want to repost this or forward this… and yet, I don’t think I can handle the rampant neckbeard replies I will get. This is deeply frustrating and saddening.

On a side note, this attitude was a lot less prevalent when I was in the private sector. Getting my phd may be impossible to do at the levels of what’s going on above happening….
5

Trebuchet

August 18, 2012 at 9:15 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Jen’s post, by the way, was awesome. And I’m glad The Goode Comradde led me to it.
6

Anastasia

August 19, 2012 at 6:38 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Great post, what she speaks about is taking place, true. But it’s not about women or feminism, I dare day. She says, she doesn’t feel safe, as a woman. Yet in this world no one feels safe: if we want to b equal, we should all admit and accept this. So I guess Jen’s post is not an alarm,it’s just ” contrasts, you’re grown up now and you know there’s no Santa”
7

Anastasia

August 19, 2012 at 6:40 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

*I meant “congrats”, sorry
8

skeptifem

August 19, 2012 at 7:39 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

fuck you anastasia. Men don’t feel the kind of fear women do because they aren’t subject to gendered violence and harassment. You can’t just say that the systemic terroizing of a class of people is about being “grown up” just because its easier for you to believe that. I think your problem is what they call the fantasy of a Just World, where nothing really needs to be done and the bad guys suffer at an acceptable rate. Compare that bullshit with reality and then come talk to the rest of us, who actually want to make the world a better place. Looking for injustice and trying to do something about it is a fuck of a lot more mature than saying “oh well!” like you have.
9

jenny6833a

August 19, 2012 at 10:04 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

skeptifem says:

fuck you anastasia. Men don’t feel the kind of fear women do because they aren’t subject to gendered violence and harassment. You can’t just say that the systemic terroizing of a class of people is about being “grown up” just because its easier for you to believe that. I think your problem is what they call the fantasy of a Just World, where nothing really needs to be done and the bad guys suffer at an acceptable rate. Compare that bullshit with reality and then come talk to the rest of us, who actually want to make the world a better place. Looking for injustice and trying to do something about it is a fuck of a lot more mature than saying “oh well!” like you have.

That comment that will not convert anyone to you cause. Instead, it will label you and those like you as people to be shunned.
10

blindrobin

August 19, 2012 at 10:09 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Agreed.
11

bcmystery

August 19, 2012 at 10:36 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

I second skeptifem’s extremely justified anger. If that gets me shunned by tone trolls and misogynists, then my day just got better by multiple orders of magnitude.
12

Lady Day

August 19, 2012 at 11:07 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

I’ve witnessed the same behavior that Jen describes in more than a few academic science labs, now.

And, unfortunately, I’ve seen the same misogynistic attitude amongst some of the “social justice” and “anti-war” folks, too. Not in people that I admire, but in those who I’d describe as peers.

As an aside: although I’m no atheist, I’m not terribly religious, either – at least not in the way that folks like to describe “religious” people. Hitchens and Dawkins were huge turn-offs for anyone like me who would advocate on behalf of atheism or skepticism. I especially never could understand why anyone liked Hitchens – he was such a pro-war, racist misogynist.
13

Hertta

August 19, 2012 at 11:33 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

That comment that will not convert anyone to you cause. Instead, it will label you and those like you as people to be shunned.

You don’t know it won’t convert anyone (or be a part of a conversion process). And just because you’d like to see skeptifem (and those like her) shunned doesn’t mean she will be. Or that she (or those like her) really give two shits if you and those like you shun her.
14

ildi

August 19, 2012 at 12:15 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Imagine this conversation is taking place in a bar. Anastasia says, “You know, we women just need to grow up and suck it up like everybody else. Life is ‘red in tooth and claw,’ deal with it.” Skeptifem responds: “Fuck you, Anastasia! blah, blah, blah” because you know that when Anastasia hears fuck you the rest is history. When I read that in the eighth comment in this thread my eyes glossed over the rest and I had to force myself to read it, even though the abuse wasn’t even aimed at me.

So, what are the bets that skeptifem is interested in a heated dialogue, or itching for a fight? I know what my intentions were when I’ve started my response with ‘fuck you’ in a bar. However, it could be that in skeptifem’s neck of the woods ‘fuck you’ is the same as saying ‘hey, you!’ I don’t believe this is common usage, though.

I recommend reading a person’s first comment as charitably as possible. Unless its’ “bitchez aint shit” or “make me a sandwich,” I don’t see how the first response of “fuck you” is anything but throwing an emotional punch. Maybe try attacking the commenter’s statement first, rather than their person? Something along the lines of “fuck that noise” or such. Unless your hobby is picking fights on the internet, in which case hope that’s working out well for you.
15

thetalkingstove

August 19, 2012 at 12:46 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

@14

Tone trolling and loftily handing out recommendations on how to post on the internet is really boring.

And speak for yourself on your eyes glossing over – the righteous anger on FtB is what opened my eyes to a lot of issues.
16

jenny6833a

August 19, 2012 at 1:13 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

11. bcmystery says:

I second skeptifem’s extremely justified anger. If that gets me shunned by tone trolls and misogynists, then my day just got better by multiple orders of magnitude.

Y’all are turning off the very people you want to reach. It’s sad that you don’t seem to understand that. You’re doing your cause a major disservice.
17

ildi

August 19, 2012 at 1:23 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

thetalkingstove: It would be tone trolling if I said that using the word ‘fuck’ invalidated or undermined skeptifem’s argument. I call out bullying (however minor) when I see it, your boredom with that notwithstanding. Righteous anger is good. Bullying, not so much.

Analogy time: skeptifem’s response is like being jostled on the subway, assuming that the person pushed you on purpose, and yelling ‘fuck you’ in their face.
18

bcmystery

August 19, 2012 at 1:33 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

You can’t reach entrenched misogynists, jennybunchanumbers, and tone trolls don’t want to be reached. They just want any empty excuse to feel superior. Fuck ‘em both.
19

ildi

August 19, 2012 at 1:55 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

This tone troll merely wishes that there was a safe space for Anastasia to express her opinion without the assumption that she is an entrenched misogynist, but rather is stating a commonly-held but possibly unexamined attitude. Skeptifem could have posted the exact same comment without attacking Anastasia first. I agree with skepitfem’s position, but it’s hard for me to want to join in and agree with someone when their first comment in response to Anastasia starts off on such a beatdown, negative go-away note. This type of “attack first, ask questions later” approach exemplifies to me what Dan Fincke is trying to avoid with his comment moderation policy at Camels with Hammers.
20

Jennifer

August 19, 2012 at 2:12 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

ildi – if you want to try reading Anastasia’s comment charitably while also responding constructively, try responding to Anastasia’s comment, not responding to another commenter’s comment whose style you don’t prefer.

Anastasia, your comment puts forth a suggestion of false equivalence (i.e. none of us feel safe in this world), which in my view is self-evidently bullshit. It further evinces a very harmful and, for victims of mysogeny, a self-destructive attitude that suggests mysogeny is just par for the course, and such victims simply need to grow up and accept that.
Although you began by acknowleging the problem, these later points that seem to minimize the problem dominate your comment. If this is incorrect, then please do us all the favor of clarifying.
21

hoary puccoon

August 19, 2012 at 2:39 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Ildi, your argument makes no sense. If hearing an occasional “fuck you” were the worst kind danger and harassment women face, then I would agree, they shouldn’t be passing it on to someone else. But you must know that even relatively mild sexual harrassment is far worse than that. And that’s not even starting on rape, wifebeating…. And then, the statements women have to hear afterwards– rape jokes, bullying, “there’s no proof….” “regret is not rape….” “she was probably lying….” And (about a friend of mine who was raped in the shrubbery of her apartment house when she came home from work) “She should have known the gun he shoved in her face was just a .22!” Did you understand that? She was raped at gunpoint and then told it was her fault for submitting instead of getting shot in the face at point blank range because the gun was SMALL CALIBER!

THAT’S the kind of stuff women face. And all those things, even relatively minor harassment, are far more destructive than an honestly angry, “fuck you.”
22

A 'Nym Too

August 19, 2012 at 3:07 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

WAH! Someone done used a naughty word!

Really? Really?. Christe on a motherfucken rocket sledde…

Sorry Anastasia and her whiny comraddes, but we live under patriarchy. We live under oppression, silencing, fear, and violence. We’re bitches, cunts, whores, and sluts.

You want to play nice? Off you go, have a tea party or a puppy parade. In the meantime, we’ll be over here fighting for your right to safety, justice, and bodily autonomy.

You’re welcome.

HP – Hug your friend hard, from this random uppity bitch. I teared up reading that, my heart hurts for her.
23

NateHevens

August 19, 2012 at 4:05 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Anastasia…

Great post, what she speaks about is taking place, true. But it’s not about women or feminism, I dare day. She says, she doesn’t feel safe, as a woman. Yet in this world no one feels safe: if we want to b equal, we should all admit and accept this. So I guess Jen’s post is not an alarm,it’s just ” contrasts, you’re grown up now and you know there’s no Santa”

(emphasis mine)

I’m a 25-year-old white, cis-gendered, heterosexual, able-bodied male.

I do feel safe in this world. I feel safe in this world because there is simply no point in human history where I would be discriminated against (albeit as long as I hide my atheism; but hiding atheism is a hell of a lot easier than hiding, say, breasts). I would be welcome at the very top of the human pecking order at all times in history. There is simply no where and no time I have to worry about being discriminated against as a white, cis-gendered, heterosexual, able-bodied male.

So, to be blunt, you’re wrong. There are people who feel safe, and what’s more, if those specific people do not feel safe, then it is on them, and not others.

Aside from being an atheist, I’m not a minority. I mean… yeah, statistically, the human subset of “white, cis-gendered, heterosexual, able-bodied male” is a minority. However, it i the white, cis-gendered, heterosexual, able-bodied male that has historically held the most power. I am couched in insane amount of privilege.

In fact, the only minority statuses I’m allowed to claim are two things that are actually quite easy to hide: atheism and Judaism. And that Judaism is tempered by half of my family being Roman Catholic.

So I’m really not effected by discrimination at all unless I speak out on either of those two things (and, yes, I do). But even being an atheist with a (half-)Jewish family, I still feel safe, mainly because of the things I can’t change, like being white, and straight, and able-bodied, and having been born with a penis and balls.

My suggestion, Anastasia, is that you really think about what you said. I don’t think it takes much to see why you’re wrong about that. I feel safe, and I would argue that most like me probably feel safe, as well (another reason the whole MRA movement is fucking stupid).

—————————-

skeptifem…

I think Anastasia may just be confused, possibly owing to a lack of any experience with this stuff on her part? Starting with “fuck off” was probably not best in this situation.

I should point out (and I’m fully aware of the perceived irony in what I’m about to say… because I’ve been on your side, too and had to shoot down tone trolls myself… they piss me off, too) that I’m not tone trolling. If you’ve seen other posts of mine here on FtB (and on my blog), you’ll know that I’m all for righteous anger. It’s deserved, IMO. Utterly and completely deserved.

And I’m no stranger to cussing, either. Cussing is fucking cathartic. I fucking love it. Shit it feels good to cuss… especially when I’m ticked off. Best time ever to just let loose with the verbal abuse… I love directing it toward’s willfully ignorant Creationists and fucking misogynistic MRAs. It really can make one feel better.

But I don’t think Anastasia herself has earned it just yet.

Let’s wait to see how Anastasia responds before judging what her position is on all this, especially since she does seem to support/like what Jen is saying otherwise. I really do think she misspoke and may not be totally aware of the context of her post and why it called forth righteous anger. She may not be entirely aware of the fallacy she fed into.

Then again, despite my cynicism, I tend to look for the good in people… to a fault. So I might be wrong.

We’ll see…
24

F

August 19, 2012 at 4:18 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Anastasia’s whole post is a fuck you, not a good faith opinion. So if you want to compalain about skeptifem’s tone, well fuck you. These people don’t want to be reached.

And for good measure, you tone troll are “just as bad as the people you complain about“. There, I threw your own little toy back at you.
25

NateHevens

August 19, 2012 at 4:26 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Hang on F… did you read Anastasia’s post>

Here:

Great post, what she speaks about is taking place, true. But it’s not about women or feminism, I dare day. She says, she doesn’t feel safe, as a woman. Yet in this world no one feels safe: if we want to b equal, we should all admit and accept this. So I guess Jen’s post is not an alarm,it’s just ” contrasts, you’re grown up now and you know there’s no Santa”

She calls it a great post. She even appears to agree with Jen.

However, Anastasia seems to be looking at the forest while ignoring the trees. I’m hoping that she is just missing the trees as opposed to intentionally ignoring them. Only Anastasia can enlighten us as to which it is.

And if it’s the latter, then skeptifem’s “fuck you” is totally warranted, and I’ll second it.

I just want to hear back from Anastasia, first. I’m (perhaps erroneously) giving Anastasia the benefit of the doubt.

Is that really such a bad thing?

Also, I never said “just as bad as the people you complain about”. I don’t think that. The righteous anger here is NOT BAD AT ALL. I fucking love it. I just want to see if Anastasia deserves it or not.
26

Jennifer, Uppity Bitch and General Malcontent

August 19, 2012 at 4:55 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

This tone troll merely wishes that there was a safe space for Anastasia to express her opinion without the assumption that she is an entrenched misogynist, but rather is stating a commonly-held but possibly unexamined attitude.

My goodness, it is such a pity that there isn’t a whole wide fucking internet out there where she can do so. I wasn’t aware that Physioproffe’s blogge here was the only forum on the entire internet. What a crying shame, since I don’t give two shits about baseball.
27

gingerest

August 19, 2012 at 5:38 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

I always love it when people earnestly respond to an expression of anger with, “Your tone is turning off the very people you’re trying to convince.” Expressing anger is not rhetorical or didactic – it’s exclamatory.
28

Comradde PhysioProffe

August 19, 2012 at 5:41 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Expressing anger is not rhetorical or didactic – it’s exclamatory.

I’d be interested to hear Skeptifem’s take on her own comment, but I suspect that she intended her strong language to be both exclamatory *and* rhetorical.
29

Gretchen

August 19, 2012 at 6:44 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

Oh, for fuck’s sake. Skeptifem wasn’t bullying anyone; she was reacting appropriately to the asinine “If you want to be equal” trope, this time in the particularly insulting form of the suggestion that because life isn’t a bed of roses for everyone, women are childish if they complain about sexism.
30

skeptifem

August 19, 2012 at 6:50 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

To be honest I didn’t think about it that much CPP. I suppose it was mostly an exclamation? I try to write what I am actually thinking.

It wasn’t just the “yet everyone is scared!” shit, it was also the “if we want to be equal…” prescription. I want to not be subject to sexist bullshit from men. Why is that never the discussion? It is always about what women need to do to be considered equals with men (it always seems to entail Succeeding Despite All Obstacles, something almost no woman can actually achieve). It is a pretty clear case of men using their social privilege to act like total fucking assholes and needing to cut it out. I am sick and god damned tired of it turning into something about what women need to do to when they aren’t causing the problem.
31

skeptifem

August 19, 2012 at 6:56 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

This tone troll merely wishes that there was a safe space for Anastasia to express her opinion without the assumption that she is an entrenched misogynist, but rather is stating a commonly-held but possibly unexamined attitude. Skeptifem could have posted the exact same comment without attacking Anastasia first. I agree with skepitfem’s position, but it’s hard for me to want to join in and agree with someone when their first comment in response to Anastasia starts off on such a beatdown, negative go-away note. This type of “attack first, ask questions later” approach exemplifies to me what Dan Fincke is trying to avoid with his comment moderation policy at Camels with Hammers.

So, is there no level of ridiculous bullshit that necessitates a “fuck you”, or are you simply disagreeing with me about where the line is drawn?

if camels with hammers is right for you, then post there.
32

NateHevens

August 19, 2012 at 7:04 pm (UTC -7) Link to this comment

I guess I read Anastasia’s post differently. I didn’t get the impression that she was prescribing what women specifically should do. To me, she was making the mistaken claim that all humans feel unsafe in this world.

I disagree with that assumption, obviously.

Like I said… I’m hoping, perhaps erroneously, that Anastasia made a mistake and is open to accepting that.

As far as your line for saying “fuck you” to someone… I, personally, like where you draw it for the most part. I just think Anastasia made a mistake instead of a deliberate… erm… I can’t think of the word…

Fuck…
33

ildi

August 22, 2012 at 7:21 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

hoary puccoon:

THAT’S the kind of stuff women face. And all those things, even relatively minor harassment, are far more destructive than an honestly angry, “fuck you.”

I agree, and I’ve faced much worse. That doesn’t mean that starting off attacking someone with a ‘fuck you’ isn’t destructive, also.

A ‘Nym Too:

WAH! Someone done used a naughty word!

Notice I didn’t have any problems with ‘fuck’ per se; my example was starting off the comment with ‘fuck that noise’ (or ‘fuck that shit’ to express anger and disdain without starting off with an attack).

NateHevens:

So, to be blunt, you’re wrong. There are people who feel safe, and what’s more, if those specific people do not feel safe, then it is on them, and not others.

I am so envious.

skeptifem:

So, is there no level of ridiculous bullshit that necessitates a “fuck you”, or are you simply disagreeing with me about where the line is drawn?

I’m simply disagreeing about where the line is drawn.
34

Coach Bags

September 26, 2012 at 7:26 am (UTC -7) Link to this comment

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