Make Britain Great Again?


It’s become obvious recently that the political world has descended into madness. I thought the American elections were an embarrassment, but it seems that some people, to persuade others that the United Kingdom ought to leave the European Union, thought that the best argument they could make was to sail boats up the Thames and splash water on the boats of the people who think they should remain in the Union. On the scale of the great naval battles in English history, it was no Trafalgar.

I thought it was all pretty silly, especially when I saw who was leading the Brexit Armada.

admiralnigel

Oh, jebus, the gormless Nigel Farage. I cannot take this seriously.

Do you think he bought the double-breasted blue blazer just for this event, because he thought it was what all the high-class yachting types wear?

Comments

  1. laurentweppe says

    I’m against the Brexit, but if the English people prove to be foolish enough to vote for it, I do hope to see the death of the UK, the rebirth of the Auld Alliance between France and Scotland, and the reunification of Ireland as the well deserved karmic punishment to the imbeciles who believe they still rule an empire.

  2. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    Well… I mean… at least he’s not Nick Griffin? #theresalwaysamorexenophobicfish
    Apparently there’s talk of him getting a cabinet position if ol’ Boris ousts Cameron (by which I mean, essentially, if the vote falls in favour of out… which was already a kind of chilling thought, to be honest with you).

  3. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    I do hope to see the death of the UK, the rebirth of the Auld Alliance between France and Scotland

    Fine with me, so long as we redefine “Scotland” to include Yorkshire.

  4. slithey tove (twas brillig (stevem)) says

    http://jalopnik.com/bob-geldof-has-started-a-flotilla-protest-boat-battle-o-1782022321

    While BREXIT may hypothetically be good for Ireland, etc. I hope Geldorf thought about it also. He is strongly Irish, yet lead the counter flotilla to oppose the Farage Brexit Flotilla. Seems the rock star who played Mr Pink Floyd and organized the Charity Concert for Africa is strongly opposed to the Brexit.

    Being a Pythoniac, I too was amused by one of the pictures at the link above. While one boat had a plethora on IN posters, one was being heald backwards, reading NI, thus representing the ‘Knights who say Ni’.

    Still, interesting distraction from the American clusterfuck of a campaign season.

  5. says

    What have you got against Lincolnshire and Gloucestershire? Norfolk, Suffolk, Somerset, Devon, and Cornwall? Why can’t you make everything except London and maybe the more southerly counties part of Scotland, as long as you’re at it?

  6. Gregory Greenwood says

    As implied by PZ’s title to this piece, between them Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage almost make up a British version of Donald Trump (and amusingly, Trump himself has come out in favour of Britain leaving the EU – that endorsement alone should have killed the annoyingly titled ‘Brexit’ movement stone dead). Yes, they are that obnoxious and bigoted and have a comparable level of understanding of the issues. They drone on about ‘project fear’, but their whole shtick boils down to banal (and racist – so very, very racist) xenophobia and a delusion of some kind of ill defined British exceptionalism, which is akin to a more anemic version of American exceptionalism that pretends that the UK is still a great power in the world to such a degree that it can essentially leave the EU and then dictate terms to the rest of the planet on issues of trade and foreign affairs. They have terminally parted company with reality, but unfortunately so have great swathes of the British electorate, and so the referendum is now a close run thing, rather than the foregone conclusion of an in vote that it should have been if the electorate were in any way informed.

    This idiotic stunt on the Thames is just what I would expect from that smug grinning bigot Farage.

  7. Gregory Greenwood says

    PZ Myers @ 7;

    What have you got against Lincolnshire and Gloucestershire? Norfolk, Suffolk, Somerset, Devon, and Cornwall? Why can’t you make everything except London and maybe the more southerly counties part of Scotland, as long as you’re at it?

    Nicola Sturgeon probably wouldn’t want to go quite that far, but you are in danger of giving Alex Salmond ideas…

  8. cartomancer says

    Hey, we here in the Westcountry have no problem with joining Scotland, but we draw the line at bloody Yorkshire. And will nobody think of the Welsh!

  9. methos says

    A bit of trivia about the Armada. A year after the failed Spanish Armada, the British send an Armada to Spain, and it failed badly. So bad in fact that Spain regain control of seas afterwards.

  10. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    What have you got against Lincolnshire

    Lincolnshire harbours the Codhead scourge! We must not include them, lest our chip shops become corrupted!

    and Gloucestershire? Norfolk, Suffolk, Somerset, Devon, and Cornwall? Why can’t you make everything except London and maybe the more southerly counties part of Scotland, as long as you’re at it?

    I suggest that the Free Counties of the south unite under the banner of Wessex. They can also include Lincoln in their union, as they have the fallback cuisine of pasties, should the chip shops be befouled.

  11. cartomancer says

    Perhaps if we just build a wall around London and relocate government functions back to Winchester like they were in King Alfred’s day then we can all be happy?

    We would, of course, refrain from telling the Londoners that we did this.

  12. says

    I am kind of hoping that the vote goes to leave. But only so I can watch Cameron spit his dummy out and squirm while he figures out how he’s going to tell us that he’s going to ignore the result and do another vote, and then keep doing them until we make the decision he thought we should have made in the first place. But that’s just because I can’t stand the loathsome twat. Mind you, I don’t like any of ’em.

    I am pretty sure that, whichever way it goes, we won’t actually be leaving. At worst they’ll string it out for years and then do a do-over because people might have changed their minds…

    I am actually living in Wales (not Welsh, though, but my wife is) and the countryside is littered with tractors in fields with Vote Leave banners stuck to them.

  13. robnyny says

    I thought that Great Britain was famous for its tailoring. This guy looks like his blazer was an unmade bed shot onto him out of a cannon.

  14. lucifersbike says

    Farage is just a symptom. We in the UK have a political class which is completely unfit for purpose. The arguments on both sides are about as realistic as a playground argument about Superman versus Batman. Eton and Oxford should be exposed for defrauding the public by educating idiots well beyond their intellectual capacity. Because we now have fixed-term Parliaments, the idiots who are responsible for this mess will be in power until 2020, so whatever happens, we are fucked.

  15. fred says

    London just voted for a muslim Labour mayor, is highly multicultural, and returns mainly progressive MPs. London is not the problem.

  16. says

    Could one of you blokes from across the pond please explain to an ignorant yank what the hell the Brexit is all about? I know what it means of course, but I don’t get why. I’m afraid I don’t pay too much attention to European politics given the insane clown show we’ve got going on over here, but my general feeling is that 1) the EU is, whatever its faults, a highly successful international organization, and therefore 2) you should need a really good reason to leave it, and 3) I do not know what the fuck that reason is as far as the UK is concerned. Mindless nationalism is obviously not a good reason. So what else, if anything, is there? Pros and cons?

  17. fred says

    @Area Man: I left the UK a few years ago, but I think you have it pretty much spot on. Also, there are many neglected former industrial areas with high unemployment, who are unfortunately directing their anger at visa-less immigration from the EU (“taking our jobs”) rather than the more significant causes of the problem (de-industrialisation, lack of well paid semi-skilled jobs, decline of trades unions, falling benefits and regressive taxation).

  18. unclefrogy says

    it must mean something that as the countries of the world become more interdependent and their economic health depends on the economic health of everyone else that around the world we get this resurgence of spiteful nationalism. The rise of neo-facist, people actually reaching back to old isolationist rhetoric like we have in the U.S. with Trump talking about America first. this Brexit vote is just the current headline event. The UK going it alone? just how do you do that?
    something is fishy about all of it because it sure as hell is not going to benefit the working class much nor the underemployed
    it must mean something

    uncle frogy

  19. Saganite, a haunter of demons says

    You know, I really don’t care anymore. Do or don’t leave the union, whatever. Just stop whinging about it. To quote Monty Python: Get on with it.
    Also, a Brexit will seriosuly hurt the EU in the short-term, yes, but there could also be upsides. Remember 2008? The sorts of financial regulations and taxes on financial transactions that could help prevent the next collapse are a no-go with London and the UK’s veto power.
    So there’s a potential benefit to a Brexit right there.

  20. Saganite, a haunter of demons says

    @#19 fred
    Just because they’re more progressive – as many large cities are – doesn’t mean they’re part of the problem. Regarding the economic issues I mentioned, London as a major financial center of the world is definitely at the heart of the problem.

  21. anym says

    Oh, jebus, the gormless Nigel Farage. I cannot take this seriously.

    I’d be cautious about calling him “gormless”, given that although he looks and acts a bit funny, he isn’t an idiot by any stretch of the imagination. The fact that he has done so well in a) promoting himself and b) uniting both the middle and lower classes of the UK in their shared hatred and fear of brown people is a subject that probably wants a bit more serious thought.

    His party got aout 13% of the vote in teh last general election, and only the UK’s first-past-the-post voting system stopped them gaining more power (as they only ended up with a single seat in the house of commons, out of a total of 650). UKIP also have nearly half of the UK european parliament seats, and consider it their duty to take all the money and do none of the work. If the UK leaves the EU, he could easily end up in a coalition government with Boris, another person who has done a godo job of hiding a narcissistic autocrat underneath the guise of a figure of fun with stupid hair.

  22. Intaglio says

    For some reason yesterday I got logged in as “Charles” today I’m back to Intaglio – ah, me, one day WordPress will get itself sorted.

    Brexit are a complete load of lunatics and little Englanders, a bit like the Trump crowd. Like him they are selling themselves on a fear of “immigrants” despite the fact that these immigrants do jobs that Britons are unwilling or unqualified to perform. Jobs like harvest workers, hospital cleaners, dentists, doctors nurses – the list is pretty long. Immigrants and the children of immigrants have supplied many “Great” Britons: Holbein, Handel, the Hershels (brother and sister), the Courtaulds, D’Israeli, the Rothschilds, Mary Seacoal, the Brunels (father and son), Marconi, Harry Ricardo, (OK 3rd generation), Ramanujan, the Freuds and the list goes on and on, It also includes Prince Phillip, but we keep quiet about that. The list also includes the ancestors of Mr Farage himself it is likely they were, ironically, from Syria

    Brexit means more expensive personal travel, a diminished importance for British ports and airports, loss of markets for British products, the certainty of a reduction in size of some large British manufacturers and a loss of markets for primary products. Most farmers are terrified by an exit from the Common Agricultural Policy and quite a few fishermen see themselves being bankrupted by exit due to much of their catch (e.g. spider crabs) only being sellable in Europe.

    Luckily Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton have given an easy argument to turn against the Brexit people, because the UK would be utterly dependent upon a friendly US administration. Left wing Brexiters (a group like the US Bernie or Busters) are terrified of Trump and right wingers are terrified of Clinton.

  23. says

    It’s quite a frightening time over here right now. The Brexit crowd are led by a cabal of neoliberals who openly want to dismantle the welfare state and remove worker protections. This is all dressed up in the language of ‘regaining sovereignty’ (which we’d never lost) and ‘removing onerous EU red tape so that business may thrive’ (is this starting to sound familiar?) but it’s essentially a power-grab by the right-wingers in an already right-wing Tory/UKIP axis.

    They are being successful because they are repeatedly pushing the ‘IMMIGRANT’ horn and loud and long as they can. And this resonates strongly, even with traditionally Labour voters. The working man doesn’t want to hear why housing shortages are the result of decades of policy. He only cares that people are telling him that immigrants are getting council houses ahead of him. He doesn’t want to hear that the NHS crisis is the result of spending cutbacks. He only listens to those who tell him that waiting rooms are clogged up with filthy Romanian immigrants.

    This whole thing is ugly. Yes, both sides have sold misinformation, but both sides aren’t doing lying equally. The Leavers have most of the print press on their side, which have been echoing fearful news about migrants, lies about millions of Turks ready to invade should Turkey become an EU member, bollocks about spending to Brussels that never comes back. And it looks like it’s working. It is turning into a ‘burn it all down’ sentiment that I think could sink the country. I really fear for Britain, I really do.

  24. dianne says

    Luckily Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton have given an easy argument to turn against the Brexit people, because the UK would be utterly dependent upon a friendly US administration

    Air Strip One should probably be aware the Clinton would carry on the Obama plan of prioritizing the EU over an independent Britain and Trump would enact Oceania for real.

  25. laurentweppe says

    What have you got against Lincolnshire and Gloucestershire? Norfolk, Suffolk, Somerset, Devon, and Cornwall? Why can’t you make everything except London and maybe the more southerly counties part of Scotland, as long as you’re at it?

    Because the pro-Brexit crowds aren’t found mainly in London but in Lincolnshire, Gloucestershire, Norfolk, and the rest of “provincial” England.

    ***

    a more anemic version of American exceptionalism that pretends that the UK is still a great power in the world to such a degree that it can essentially leave the EU and then dictate terms to the rest of the planet on issues of trade and foreign affairs.

    Although to be fair, the UK isn’t the only country in that case: France also has a large chunk of its population who love to pretend that Paris could bully the rest of the planet into imitating us if only we had the “right” leaders. Former colonial empires have problems admitting their glory days are long gone.

    ***

    I am actually living in Wales (not Welsh, though, but my wife is) and the countryside is littered with tractors in fields with Vote Leave

    well, if Britain leave, we Continentals will have less ingrate peasants to subsidize through the CAP, silver linings and all that.)

  26. konservenknilch says

    @23: I’d argue that a Brexit (damn that’s a stupid word) would be a benefit to the EU. Let’s not forget that we had two rather weak presidents of the commission (Prodi, Barroso) because the UK vetoed other candidates for being too “integrationist”. Last election, they wanted to veto Juncker as well, but unfortunately for them, the veto right no longer exists. Add to that the countless “special deals”, mostly financial, that the UK has uniquely in the EU (Thatcher: “I want my money back!”). So, good riddance.

    The EU has historically been mostly a project by Germany and France. It’s pretty weird that one of the major european powers just doesn’t want to play. Then again, it’s pretty weird that many UKers call mainland europe “the continent”, as if they’re not part of it.

    Finally, if it’s all about the money: Look at Norway, which pays quite a lot to be able to participate in european programs such as the single market, but has no say whatsoever, being a nonmember. I don’t really see the benefit in that.

  27. Dunc says

    Do you think he bought the double-breasted blue blazer just for this event, because he thought it was what all the high-class yachting types wear?

    No. He’s exactly the sort of dreadful git who dresses like that all the time.

    (Not that I think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with the concept of a double-breasted navy blazer… Done properly, it can look great. However, he does it very, very badly indeed.)

  28. laurentweppe says

    Let’s not forget that we had two rather weak presidents of the commission (Prodi, Barroso) because the UK vetoed other candidates for being too “integrationist”

    The UK isn’t alone to blame for Barroso: Guy Verhofstadt should have been the one to succeed Prodi, but the pro-Iraq-invasion head of governments (Blair, but also Berlusconi and Aznar) pretty much took the commission hostage and imposed a member of the pro-invasion club.

    So that’s another thing which you can blame Bush the lesser for: without the invasion of Iraq, the UK wouldn’t have found such enthusiastic accomplices in Southern Europe to screw up the european integration.

  29. komarov says

    Most of the interesting stuff has already been said. But maybe someone more informed can clear something up for me I’be been wondering about for some time: Scotland. They had their own vote to stay or get out of the UK, and chose to stay.* Presumably, if the UK now decides to leave, they’ll take Scotland with them. If so I’m just dying to know how the Scots feel about that. Had Scotland left it could – again presumably – have remained part of the EU in some fashion or another, but now they have to go along with the rest of the UK. Might that perhaps cause some second thoughts about staying with the UK?

    “Alright, we’ll stay, just calm down already.”
    – “Fantastic! You won’t regret this, I promise. We’re far better off working together as one. Now grab your coat, we’re getting out of the EU.”
    “…what?”

    *Amidst Great British lamentations about unity, which seems somewhat disingenious now.

  30. konservenknilch says

    @32: God, the “coalition of the willing” was such a toxic club. And now we still have to deal with turds like Orbán, sabotaging the whole project and being smug about it.

  31. Dunc says

    But maybe someone more informed can clear something up for me I’be been wondering about for some time: Scotland. They had their own vote to stay or get out of the UK, and chose to stay.* Presumably, if the UK now decides to leave, they’ll take Scotland with them. If so I’m just dying to know how the Scots feel about that. Had Scotland left it could – again presumably – have remained part of the EU in some fashion or another, but now they have to go along with the rest of the UK. Might that perhaps cause some second thoughts about staying with the UK?

    Yeah, this is a pretty major issue here in Scotland. Based on all of the polling to date, Scots are much more enthusiastic about remaining in the EU – the last numbers I saw indicated that Scotland will probably vote somewhere in the region of 70 / 30 for Remain. If Scotland is dragged out of the EU against our will, there is a good chance that this could trigger calls for a second independence referendum.

    It’s particularly ironic that one of the major arguments deployed by the “No” side in the last independence referendum was that an independent Scotland would have to re-apply for EU membership, and that voting against independence was the only way to guarantee we would remain in the EU.

  32. konservenknilch says

    @33 Komarov

    Fun fact I remember from the Scottish referendum: An independent Scotland would have to file its own application for EU membership (obviously). However, the UK (I can’t remember if it was Cameron himself or some goons) announced that they would veto Scotland’s membership at all costs. Way to stay classy.

  33. dianne says

    IIRC, a poll I saw recently suggested that England was most enthused about leaving, Scotland not so much, North Ireland even less so. Maybe they’ll have a little Brexit of their own where “Brexit” now means “exiting Britain”?

  34. dianne says

    However, the UK (I can’t remember if it was Cameron himself or some goons) announced that they would veto Scotland’s membership at all costs.

    But of course if Britain isn’t a member…

    This could, ultimately, end up with an EU without England but with united Ireland and independent Scotland. Or maybe North Ireland/Scotland, depending on how the NI (and the Scots and the Irish) want to play it.

  35. dianne says

    Sorry, one last thought on this issue: Can Scotland exit GB? That is, if they vote for independence, will that result in Britain saying, “tschüss, call us when you’re ready to negotiate a trade agreement” or a military invasion.

  36. laurentweppe says

    Sorry, one last thought on this issue: Can Scotland exit GB? That is, if they vote for independence, will that result in Britain saying, “tschüss, call us when you’re ready to negotiate a trade agreement” or a military invasion.

    That’s why I’m for resurrecting the Auld Alliance: great way to put french boots on British soil

  37. Dunc says

    Can Scotland exit GB?

    It’s somewhat a murky area. Technically, the Scottish Parliament has no legislative competence to call a referendum or to unilaterally decide to leave the UK. We only got the last indyref because Westminster agreed to let us have it, and even then, they dictated the timescale and the terms.

    However, there is an argument that Scotland retains the right to self-determination, which would (at least theoretically) allow us to declare independence unilaterally. However, that is not a route that many people would like to go down.

  38. madtom1999 says

    While it would be good in the short term to have a wall built around London it looks as if sea level rise will effectively wipe it out within 50 years or so. The wall might slow it down. I look forward to UKIP denying global warming while wearing mask and snorkel.

  39. dianne says

    @43: Don’t worry about the rising sea level. The Netherlands have hundreds of years of experience in building structures to keep out the rising seas and I’m sure they’d be more than pleased to help their EU partners with…oh, oops.

  40. dianne says

    @41: When Northern Ireland was considering the issue of whether to leave Britain, the rest of Britain seemed pretty certain about that not being okay with them.

  41. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    Erm, hello, yes, I think you’ll find that Britannia rules the waves. If those waves think they’re gonna come onto our turf and try pushing us around, making our feet soggy, they’ve got another thing coming!

  42. Moggie says

    The level of “low information voter” ranting from “leave” supporters is staggering, sometimes. Back in March, I witnessed one of them banging on about the evils of marriage equality and International Women’s Day, neither of which have anything to do with the EU. For many “leave” supporters, the EU has simply become a symbol for everything they hate, whether it’s brown people, feminism, the BBC, climate change, Russian and Saudi billionaires buying London… A vote for Brexit is their way of striking back against, well, against the modern world in general. And it’s looking like they will win. We are so screwed.

  43. Reginald Selkirk says

    Do you think he bought the double-breasted blue blazer just for this event, because he thought it was what all the high-class yachting types wear?

    Doesn’t really matter, it makes him look fat.

  44. Dunc says

    The level of “low information voter” ranting from “leave” supporters is staggering, sometimes.

    I recently saw one complaining about the supposedly unelected European Parliament.

  45. jacksprocket says

    If Farage’s jacket was all that was wrong with Farage; and if Farage was all that was wrong with the Dog’s Brexit; and if Brexit was all that was wrong with British politics. I’d be a rather happier chappie. The Brexit campaign (i.e. the newspapers) has become focused on immigration, and everyone, whether racist or otherwise, knows that Eastern European immigration is only a surrogate for all immigration, and especially those with dark skins. Farage has stated that he wants more Commonwealth immigration- he means of course the white commonwealth, Canada, Auistralia, New Zealand and white South Africa.

  46. Saganite, a haunter of demons says

    So, an anti-Brexit Labour politician, Jo Cox, was just shot and stabbed and is currently in critical condition in the hospital. Now, there could be any number of motives for this. But let me just say that I wouldn’t be completely shocked if it was a rabid anti-EU person who did the attack for political reasons. Could also be something completely different, admittedly, but this way I get to say “I told you say” should it be that. Anyway, hopefully she’ll survive. A man near her who was also in the scuffle before the shooting is also injured and at the hospital, but not in critical condition from what I gathered.

  47. dianne says

    @51: Well, fuck. It might be unrelated, but scary anyway. I thought the Brits had their guns under control.

  48. Dunc says

    @52: An eyewitness described it as “a makeshift gun, not like something you see on television”.

  49. komarov says

    Thank you all for those fascinating responses. Particularly the bit about vetoing a Scottish EU-application will keep me laughing for some time.*

    Re: dianne (#44):

    Given how much grief there is in the UK over having the French build new nuclear reactors over there, I doubt the idea of Dutch dikes to save London from the rising seas would be very popular.
    My boots may dissolve, my socks may squelch and my feet may be cold but I want a British wall around London. A wall designed by British architects, built by British workers and paid for, ideally, with someone else’s money. Now, if you’ll excuse, I’m going upstairs.

    *With all the doomsaying about the UK/EU economy and the EU itself, should the Brexit** come to pass, laughing seems to be the best alternative. You know, while I still can…

    **That really is a stupid name. It’s something a bored teenager might come up with. Or someone from marketing.

  50. dianne says

    That really is a stupid name. It’s something a bored teenager might come up with. Or someone from marketing.

    OT, but…Sometimes I will look at a particularly stupid product name and/or advertising slogan and think about the fact that someone–probably more than one person–thought long and hard about what to name that product. Then a number of people thought about whether that was the right name/slogan, etc. It makes me wonder about humanity.

    As does the logic being used by Brits right now. It sounds like they’re having their own mini-Trump moment.

  51. Moggie says

    It’s being reported that the guy who shot and stabbed Jo Cox shouted “Britain first!”, either a reference to the far-right party of that name, or just a slogan.

  52. Holms says

    Previously, I was not sure which option was better for the UK. Now that I have discovered UKIP’s leader supports Brexit, I can safely conclude that I oppose it.

  53. Moggie says

    dianne:

    As does the logic being used by Brits right now. It sounds like they’re having their own mini-Trump moment.

    Absolutely, and this has been noted. In fact, there’s an anti-Brexit poster which features Trump and our Boris Johnson locked in a passionate kiss.

  54. strangerinastrangeland says

    @Area Man

    I think it is very similar to “your” (sorry! :-)) Tea Party: The world is changing & scarry and people want to go back to a fairy-tale past where everything was much nicer. Also, government (in this case the EU commission) is the source/reson for everything that went wrong in life.
    There is a reason why the “Leave” vote is strongly correlated with older age and lower education, while the “Stay” voters are more often younger and have higher education.

  55. ashley says

    Now a UK MP has been stabbed. It might be nothing to do with the referendum. Either a nutter or possibly a terrorist (if she voted for UK military action against daesh in Syria).

    I’m voting Remain but am worried that Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson might stampede us to ‘Brexit’.

  56. ashley says

    There are reports that the lone attacker shouted ‘Britain First’ (and that the MP opposes Brexit).

    So a right wing extremist rather than an islamist? Unless (also) mentally ill.

    There seems to be a worldwide spate of such lone wolf copycat attacks (with varying motives) at present. Which is scary.

  57. dianne says

    The attacker is said to have been shouting “Britain first” while he shot and stabbed the MP. There’s also a picture of him being arrested. Dude looks pretty white to me.

  58. nelliebly says

    I do believe that’s the first photo I’ve ever seen of Farage where he hasn’t looked like he’s eating a giant invisible sandwich.

    I notice he didn’t manage to shut his yap long enough for the photographer to make him look actually dignified though.

  59. says

    Statement from Jo Cox’s husband:

    “Today is the beginning of a new chapter in our lives. More difficult, more painful, less joyful, less full of love. I and Jo’s friends and family are going to work every moment of our lives to love and nurture our kids and to fight against the hate that killed Jo.

    “Jo believed in a better world and she fought for it every day of her life with an energy, and a zest for life that would exhaust most people.

    “She would have wanted two things above all else to happen now, one that our precious children are bathed in love and two, that we all unite to fight against the hatred that killed her. Hate doesn’t have a creed, race or religion, it is poisionous.

    “Jo would have no regrets about her life, she lived every day of it to the full.”

  60. Moggie says

    It wouldn’t be surprising if a Britain First supporter murdered Jo Cox. Here’s what their deputy leader wrote earlier this year:

    In a post on their Facebook page, deputy leader, Jayda Fransen, admonishes their “pro-EU, Islamist-loving opponents” for “ruining our country”.

    She adds: “They think they can get away with ruining our country, turning us into a Third World country, giving away our homes, jobs and heritage, but they will face the wrath of the Britain First movement, make no mistake about it!

    “We will not rest until every traitor is punished for their crimes against our country.

    “And by punished, I mean good old fashioned British justice at the end of a rope!”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/09/27/britain-first-paul-golding-london-mayoral-election_n_8203000.html

    The only good thing you can say about them is that they’re unlikely to last. British far-right parties are delicate flowers: they spring up, bloom gaudily for a while, and then fade. This one was formed by people from the odious British National Party, and no doubt it will splinter and we’ll have another bunch of Nazis this time next year.

    Incidentally, Britain First is explicitly Christian. Will we hear complaints in the media that the Christian community is not doing enough to prevent radicalisation of its adherents?

  61. dianne says

    At this point, I’m not sure I care if Britain stays, goes, or is eaten by Donald Trump’s hair weave.

  62. says

    As I mentioned above, things have been toxic for a while. Only now there is bloodshed. Interestingly Jo Cox’s husband and kids were part of the ‘In’ flotilla in yesterday’s ‘Battle of the Thames’. I have no idea if that was a trigger for the attack or something else.

    But again, please note that the core, the heart of the Leave campaign is racist, anti-immigrant. And it’s winning. Make of that what you will.

    Frankly, I’m afeared.

  63. says

    I was toying with the idea of not voting next Thursday, as the whole thing is just a proxy war for control of the Tory party and why should I give a spat between Boris and Dave any legitimacy? But I will be voting now, for staying, since I won’t be counted as being apathetic to this level of murderous xenophobia.

  64. robinjohnson says

    Holmes, #57:

    Previously, I was not sure which option was better for the UK. Now that I have discovered UKIP’s leader supports Brexit, I can safely conclude that I oppose it.

    Ukip is Brexit. They were founded as a single-issue party to take Britain out of the EU. They’ve adopted other petty and not-so-petty nationalist policies since, but there is literally not a single UKIP member who doesn’t support Brexit.

  65. ashley says

    Reports on UK Channel 4 suggested that the assailant might have mental health issues. Not that that excuses anything as it does not sound at all like ‘diminished responsibility’.

    I look forward to Trump’s words of wisdom on this tragedy. Not. Or perhaps he will keep silent for once?

  66. jacksprocket says

    Brown murderers are terrorists, white murderers have mental health issues. That’s the script.

  67. Athywren - not the moon you're looking for says

    Who the fuck murders a politician? If you want them gone, wait for the next election and vote them out.
    She wasn’t my MP, but she was fairly local – only a few wards west, about an hour’s drive away. She didn’t deserve this. None of them do. Most of them, agree with their politics or not, are decent people who just want to represent their constituents’ needs and wishes on the national level. None of them should ever have cause to worry that they might not come home. Nobody should. RIP. All my sympathy to her family.

  68. John Phillips, FCD says

    Dianne @41: When Northern Ireland was considering the issue of whether to leave Britain, the rest of Britain seemed pretty certain about that not being okay with them.

    The only people in NI who wanted to leave the UK were the Nationalists (Catholics) who were/are still in a minority, if only just. For the majority in NI (protestants) are more British than the mainland British. Though there were a few protestant politicians muttering about it during the peace talks if they couldn’t get their way but it was bluster. Polls over the last few years have tended to still show a majority wanting to stay British and that includes a significant percentage of the catholic population. However, if we leave Europe it will be interesting to see if anything changes there. If only among the Catholics, for they could be a majority in the future as in 2011 the difference was only 41.6% non-Catholics to 40.8% Catholics, 0.8% other religions, 6% religion not stated and 11% no religion.

    As for Scottish independence, short of declaring war on them, there isn’t a lot Westminster could do if Scotland held another referendum on independence and voted for it. One of the major factors keeping Scotland in the union last time, Cameron’s lies aside, was being part of the EU through the UK. Plus, if they did declare independence, England could have a big problem because a majority of the North Sea Oilfields are in Scottish territorial waters, which could cost the English treasury a lot of revenue. If there is a Brexit, having some Scottish blood II would be tempted to emigrate north of the border. Unless Wales could somehow get it together to grab independence, in which case I would go home. Unfortunately, you are very unlikely to see Wales voting for independence any time soon, even if the majority didn’t approve of Brexit and it happened, as we can be a fearful lot when it comes to change.

  69. ck, the Irate Lump says

    Athywren – not the moon you’re looking for wrote:

    Who the fuck murders a politician?

    Lots of political terrorist groups, it seems. It seems to especially appeal to separatist and isolationist groups (IRA, FLQ, and this recent asshole).

  70. dianne says

    No one called me on this, so I’m going to call myself: @73 was rude and obnoxious. Most Brits are perfectly nice people and no more racists or xenophobic than anyone else and deserve far better than the “Brexit”. It would be far better for UKIP alone to be eaten by Trump’s hair weave.

  71. dianne says

    @80: But would they want to stay in Britain if Scotland had left and joined the EU. Scotland-North Ireland seems like a viable combination and both areas are largely pro-EU. I wouldn’t want to join Ireland either, given its laws enslaving pregnant women, but staying in an isolationist Britain seems not the best option either.

    As for what Westminster would do to stop Scotland from leaving, well, invading was exactly what I would expect them to do to stop them.

  72. laurentweppe says

    Scotland-North Ireland seems like a viable combination and both areas are largely pro-EU.

    Then why not uniting Scotland with Eire and proclaim a Gaelic Republic?

  73. opposablethumbs says

    Brit, and living in the south-east to boot. I’m gutted at the thought this could actually go through and effectively give the xenophobic right-wingers the chance to dominate the government even more and cosy up even more to their fellow-1%-ers in the US (actually quite terrified at the prospect of losing EC protection against the right-wingers’ clear intention to further degrade the welfare state, trash workers’ rights and decimate the NHS while embracing trade agreements that hand over even more power to multinational corporations. Sovereignty? Yeah, right. Sovereignty for CEOs).

    If it happens, I could only hope that Scotland does decide for independence as a result.

  74. John Phillips, FCD says

    @dianne, have you seen the orange marches in the marching season in NI. Those are the majority, as I said above, the British who are more British than the mainland British. The only reason I can see them wanting to leave Britain is if the British parliament made it clear that they were no longer interested in having NI as part of it. But even then I could see them being too frightened of the Catholics becoming a majority and so maybe eventually voting to join Eire.

    After all, while Eire has bad laws with regards to abortion and the like, the majority of the Irish population want it made legal, as 65%, IIRC, have said in recent polls. It will likely change over the next few years as the Irish government has just lost another case to do with abortion in the ECHR and its ministers are finally talking about changing the law. That would remove one of the main objections that Catholics in the North have to unity with the south. However, while I can well see the Catholics maybe wanting away from England if it left the EU, I doubt they would want it at the cost of being controlled again by a protestant majority. It could easily become The Troubles 21st century style.

    The other problem, and this is one reason I can see Scotland possibly not wanting anything to do with NI, the peace process is still not a hundred percent in some ways, irrespective of how much better it is nowadays as nobody really knows what could happen to the peace process if we leave the EU. Plus, while some in NI might see many advantages of uniting with Scotland, it would have the oil for one thing whatever England would say, Scotland doesn’t need NI whether Scotland is in or out of the EU. Plus, I can’t really see the NI British wanting to give up power to Scotland through being the junior partner. After all, NI is the smallest of the constituent parts of the UK, even Wales has +50% more population than NI and Scotland has roughly 150% more population than of NI.

    I’m hoping that if we do leave the EU, not something I want by any means as I like being part of the EU, irrespective of its imperfections, Wales will come to its senses sooner rather than later and leave England on its own and join the EU on its own. Then I could move back to Wales even though I have the perfect medical team looking after me now. Assuming I live that long of course, which unfortunately I doubt.

    Ramble over, I need some sleep :)

    We live in interesting times, gulp!

  75. John Phillips, FCD says

    @Dianne, P.S. they wouldn’t get very far invading Scotland as many UK military bases are in Scotland and for all its small population size compared to England, Scotland has some fighting men of its own. Additionally, I can see Scotland getting plenty of offers of help against England and England, now outside the EU, could find itself suffering sanctions, like the ones imposed on Russia. The English parliament has made enough enemies that I can imagine all kinds of aid being offered Scotland. After all, once Eng;land is out of the EU, many wouldn’t want to be bothered with us.as, many companies are only in England asd Wales to give them access to the EU. Some multinationals are already looking at the possibility of moving to Ireland if we leave the EU.

  76. katybe says

    It was the local science festival last week, so I went along to a debate they staged on Science and Brexit. They had 2 articulate speakers from academia (apparently the only time anyone could remember all 103 vice chancellors agreeing on anything) and Scientists for Europe, plus a representative of an science and engineering body which wanted to remain officially neutral to ensure they weren’t excluding any of their members. She did, however, put across various stats and figures around EU funding and the impact, and explained that when they surveyed members, they got between 75 and 93% wanting to stay in.

    And then you got to the one person willing to argue for out, who was also the only one to use powerpoint slides for his figures, which he moved on way too quickly for the audience to read (and seemed to take it as a personal insult that the other 3 spoke without slides). And he was an oncologist, who introduced his objections to the EU by telling us that his lab had been getting very promising results in trials for “a vaccine for cancer”, which had been halted by EU regulation and Big Pharma! While I’ll admit I wasn’t going in with a completely vacant mind, ready to be swayed by whichever side made the best arguments, he lost any chance of getting me to reconsider within about 30 seconds. And he was the best the leave side could come up with.

  77. dianne says

    @John Phillips: Thanks for the information and insight into British internal politics! Interesting times indeed.

  78. dianne says

    And he was an oncologist, who introduced his objections to the EU by telling us that his lab had been getting very promising results in trials for “a vaccine for cancer”, which had been halted by EU regulation and Big Pharma!

    But we have vaccines for cancer…well, for HPV related cancers and hep B related cancers, at least. All approved by the EU regulators.

  79. katybe says

    Well yes, but he made it sound like if it wasn’t for those pesky regulations, he’d have been well on the way to one vaccine to cure all cancer. Coupled with the phrase Big Pharma and it really set my alarm bells ringing.

  80. dianne says

    @91: Not possible. Well, not likely anyway…cancer is caused by a few hundred different mutations that are provoked by different, sometimes contradictory, external and internal factors. Now, it is possible-not likely, but possible-that Big Pharma itself is onto something with the latest round of immunotherapy and that the single cure will exist some day…but don’t hold your breath or you’ll pass out from hypoxia.

    Sorry, I expect this is not news to you.

  81. katybe says

    Sadly, it seems it is news to a British oncologist who wants to leave the EU! Which seems worrying on so many levels.

  82. Nick Gotts says

    Crossposted from the “Moments of political madness” thread (originally posted on 14th):

    The effects of a UK vote to leave the EU (which is looking increasingly likely*) are very hard to predict, but I’ll have a go, dividing them into three: on the UK, on the EU, on the world.

    UK: Such a vote would undoubtedly be a major victory for the xenophobic and racist right: the right wing of the Conservative party, and UKIP. There are some leftists favouring a vote to leave, on the grounds that the EU is an undemocratic big-business club, dominated by neoliberal “austerity” economics (claims that admittedly have a lot of truth to them), but the central theme of the “Brexit” campaign can be summarised as: “Keep/throw the dirty foreigners out”. Cameron will, despite blather to the contrary, have to resign almost immediately, and will probably be succeeded by Boris Johnson. The Conservative party will probably reunify fairly quickly, as there will be no politically viable alternative to negotiating withdrawal terms, despite some claims that because the majority of MPs as a whole undoubtedly oppose leaving and could therefore block it. The economy will weaken – although by how much is unclear – and this will be treated as an excuse for further cuts to welfare. It’s worth noting that the process of leaving is likely to take years, so the issue will dominate UK politics for a considerable period. It’s practically certain that both Scotland and northern Ireland will vote by clear majorities against leaving; down the line this may lead to a second Scottish campaign to leave the UK, and a revival of that for Irish unification, even possibly to renewed violence in northern Ireland, but these are not likely to be short-term effects: in the short term, the devolved authorities in Scotland, northern Ireland and Wales (Wales could vote either way) are likely to campaign for representation at the negotiations. Much of the above depends on there still being an EU to leave (see below).

    EU: The EU is already in crisis, both economically – because of the disastrous austerity policies being imposed by Germany and the European Central Bank, and because of the flow of refugees** from war, persecution and poverty in the Middle East and Africa; and anti-EU sentiment has been growing in numerous EU countries. A UK vote to leave would greatly strengthen other campaigns to leave both directly, and probably by exacerbating economic problems. In particular, France has a Presidential election next year, and it would greatly increase the chances of Marine Le Pen of the Front National (who has promised to hold a referendum on leaving the EU) winning. So in its current crisis-ridden state (which has of course boosted the UK campaign to leave), it’s by no means clear the EU would survive a UK vote to leave. If it does not, expect a swift and chaotic renewal of barriers to trade and the movement of people, a rise in militarism and further rise in racism and fascism, and quite possibly, wars in eastern Europe at least.

    World: The immediate effect would be considerable economic and political uncertainty, which could possibly trigger a renewed financial crisis: London is still a financial centre second only to New York, and currency instability would be inevitable. However, it is very hard to predict how big the financial storms would be, and how quickly they would arrive. But if a renewed financial crisis does follow, then a Trump victory in November will become much more likely. Trump would also be able to point to the UK as an example of a country deciding to halt the flow of immigrants. In the medium term, if the EU does not survive, the economic and political shockwaves will affect the entire world (the EEA economy – EU plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland – is after all slightly larger than that of the USA. Putin of course would be strengthened, and NATO might follow the EU. (In other circumstances, I’d favour the end of NATO, which is after all the world’s premier imperialist force, but without the EU to keep the peace in Europe…)

    *The most recent polls put “leave” several percentage points ahead. Moreover, the initiative is definitely with the “leave” side. The “remain” campaign has been weak and almost entirely negative, dominated by establishment figures warning of the dire consequences of leaving, while the right-wing press has fed their readers a diet of anti-immigrant lies for years. However, the result is certainly not a foregone conclusion: referendums tend to favour the status quo side in general, often in contradiction to opinion polls – apparently a lot of people “bottle it” in the polling booth, deciding to “keep a hold of nurse, for fear of finding something worse”.

    **A distinction is generally made between “genuine refugees” fleeing war or persecution, and “economic migrants” – but I think if you have near-zero chances of a decent living where you are, it’s quite reasonable to call you a refugee from poverty if you try to move elsewhere.

  83. Nick Gotts says

    Also crossposted from “Moments…” (original has some links).

    Despite the no doubt irrelevant facts that Thomas Mair, the suspect in Jo Cox MP’s killing, has known far right connections, is reported to have shouted “Britain first!” or “put Britain first” while attacking Cox, and that Cox has been prominent in the “Remain” campaign, there has – as far as I have seen – quite rightly been no mention of the word “terrorism” in the UK media in connection with the killing. After all, that would be completely uncalled-for. The suspect was, apparently, a “loner” with a “history of mental health problems”, so that accounts for the unfortunate incident – loners with such histories are forever shooting and stabbing MPs in the street these days. I’m sure we’d have seen similar reticence if the suspect had been called, say, Hamid Khan, had visited jihadi websites, and had shouted “Allahu Akbar!” while killing her.

    And of course, there’s always the possibility – nay, the likelihood, given the deviousness of lefties and Muslims – that this was a false flag attack.

    ***

    Since I posted the above, it’s emerged that police have found Nazi regalia and other material at Mair’s house. This after his brother was quoted on BBC radio as saying Mair was not violent, and not political. So, we now know he was a non-violent, non-political, Nazi.

  84. jacksprocket says

    @84 “Then why not uniting Scotland with Eire and proclaim a Gaelic Republic?”

    I’ve been advocating this for over thirty years. It would create a (federal) republic of fifteen million people, big enough to kick donkey in Europe, the Prods of Scotland and Norniron would roughly counterpoise the Catlicks of all three sections, Win win win, except that both communities in the Sick Counties would infinitely prefer not to have a solution, as their entire life consists of mutual grudges.

  85. Nick Gotts says

    I’ve been advocating this for over thirty years. – jacksprocket@96

    Then perhaps the fact that absolutely no-one of any political significance in either country is campaigning for it, or ever has AFAIK, might tell you something.