The tyrant taketh, and the tyrant giveth


I took away your social threads, and there was wailing and gnashing of teeth. I had my reasons, though: off-topic threads were just getting too cliquish and leading to too much annoyance.

It wasn’t because I was trying to punish anyone. I want to encourage conversations, but productive, focused discussions. I’m going to try something new.

I’m going to create discussion threads on particular topics, with specific people appointed as curators. The model here is rq’s wonderful work on the ongoing racism thread. I’m going to formalize that, and have created a new thread titled “Racism in America“, where she and her co-curator Tony can continue to add links and commentary (and others can chime in, too!), and I’ll make it easier to find by adding a link to it on the sidebar. rq just needs to keep doing what she’s doing; I’m also going to require that discussion threads be free of argument and conflict, and if problems develop, I’ll step in and fix it in my usual tyrannical fashion, so any moderation duties should be minimal.

Now here’s the other part of this deal: anyone can propose a discussion thread. Just email me and tell me you’d like to curate one and on what topic, and I’ll make it happen, if I think it is a good idea. I could imagine, for instance, that we might want to have a discussion thread on the US Presidential Election, where you could share news, links, comments. It’s also OK to propose a temporary one: if you want to have a thread on some current theme for just a week or two, that’s fine. I also reserve the right to close a discussion thread if it becomes too wrangly, although I’ll normally just let them continue as long as the curators maintain an interest.

So email me proposals for discussions you think we ought to be having, and that you’re willing to add links and news to. Anything you regularly post links about in the comments? You can give it a little more attention with a discussion thread.

Comments

  1. Owlmirror says

    For some strange reason, I have a sneaking suspicion that a “General Shenanigans” thread just would not fly.

  2. says

    The first person that springs to mind is Lynna. For years, she did an amazing job bringing political links to the Lounge, along with occasional Mormon Moments of Madness. I don’t know if she’d be interested in curating an ongoing thread like that, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there.

  3. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The first person that springs to mind is Lynna. For years, she did an amazing job bringing political links to the Lounge, along with occasional Mormon Moments of Madness. I don’t know if she’d be interested in curating an ongoing thread like that, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there.

    I’ll second Tony’s suggestion. I always found Lynna’s posts interesting and appropriate, even for the Lounge.

  4. says

    Nice idea, PZ. I’d like a thread about arts, crafts, music, movies and hobbies, where people could share what they are doing, or newly discovered things, and so on. I noticed something interesting and disturbing in regard to embroidery art the other day, but there’s nowhere to bring that up anymore.

  5. Morgan!? ♥ ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ says

    Excellent idea, PZ. Can I assume that in addition to social justice issues we might also address arts and culture?

  6. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    For science reports, birgerjohansson has posted on that very frequently. They might be willing to curate such a thread.

  7. ledasmom says

    Please okay the arts and crafts thread so I can stop wondering exactly what Caine discovered. I am looking forward to being disturbed by needle arts.

  8. chigau (違う) says

    PZ
    This looks like a good idea but I think it’s possible you have made more work for yourself.

  9. raven says

    My 7 cents worth.

    Thunderdome never visited, no interest.

    The Lounge.
    Visited not often. It seemed to work well by internet standards. I never noticed much in the way of wrangling or the usual pointless internet conflicts. If it was clique-y, but so what. Self assembled groups are people too.

    I especially liked to read Lynna’s updates. She always found enough stuff to scare me for hours.

  10. cicely says

    Resembles a plan-like substance.
    :)

    Third-or-whatevering Tony!‘s recommendation for Lynna‘s Moments of Mutant Madness.
    Mormon Madness.

    Also chiming in in favor of Caine’s proposal.

  11. cubist says

    This makes sense. Judging by the netsites I’ve seen that do manage to remain reasonably troll-free, you need to have active moderation if you want valuable interactions to exist and not be drowned out by trollshit. I’d been wondering how PZ could make this happen, since moderation is pretty much a full-time job and PZ already has one of those; PZ’s solution is sensible, and (again judging from my limited experience) it looks to me like it should work. Yay!

  12. Sili says

    I really need to do something about my default setting that everyone on the Internet is male (and white).

  13. Saganite, a haunter of demons says

    Sounds like a reasonable compromise for those folks who want topic-specific rather than article-related comment threads. Although you certainly need to be careful about the options and the number of options you’re going to allow. Something like this could easily balloon into an unmanageable mess of threads.

  14. says

    I’d be interested in seeing a feminism discussion thread where people could post links to news about abortion rights, violence against women (e.g. cases of sexual assault or harassment; local stories of uxoricide, issues like the current call in Canada for an inquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women, terrorism against women), updates about stuff going on online (e.g. harassment of feminists and other prominent or not so prominent women; misogynist groups online), sexism in popular culture and the arts, and sexism/misogyny faced by readers/commenters in their day to day lives.

  15. chigau (違う) says

    Ibis3 #21
    Send PZ an email with those questions.
    There’s a link in the OP.

  16. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    I wanted to just send an email request, but I’d like to gauge interest beforehand. I’d like to see more world-outside-of-US centric posts. PZ is of course more familiar with what’s going on at home, but there’s plenty of international audience to keep the discussion alive.
    Yes, no, who the hell cares ?

  17. Nightjar says

    Beatrice, I like that idea, of having a thread to share news, links and comments on stuff going on outside the US! There’s certainly enough of us to keep the discussion alive and there’s always stuff to talk about. Right now, fence-building comes to mind for some reason *looking in Hungary’s and Britain’s general directions*

    ***

    But anyway, I also came here to gauge interest (and hopefully find a co-curator) for something else entirely. And I see Nerd has already suggested it above (#6) and mentioned birgerjohansson. A Science thread! To share interesting news and reports we come across, maybe it could also include science denialism/pseudoscience debunking (creationism, AGW denialism…) and even the occasional lab stories. I predict it to be much slower than the other discussion threads, but I still would like a co-curator (and to see if there is interest). So… anyone?

  18. says

    I also think most people have forgotten about this thread, so it might be futile to wait on others to express their opinion. Right now, people seem to busy making up jokes about how stupid Iowans are.

  19. anteprepro says

    This is absolutely brilliant and I am thrilled at the idea.

    So we have Racism in America, Feminist Lens, and Art.

    Also proposed thus far: This Week in Mormonism, Meanwhile in World News, and SCIENCE!!!!

    I am fully in support of all of the proposed, and would certainly be perusing such threads were they picked up.

    In addition, I would also be interested in the U.S. Presidential Election thread that PZ mentioned as a possibility. Alternatively, it could be a thread about Republican Politics in general, or it could just be The Trump(man) Show. I would say I would even curate that thread, but I don’t quite know what that entails and I don’t think I could do it alone.

    Other potential interesting thread ideas I have thought up (with little nicknames that are probably useless):

    #gamergators, a thread about goings-on in gamergate and possibly just internet misogyny in general.

    SciFantasy, thread for nerding out about sci-fi and fantasy (and possibly discussing political issues due to it e.g. Sad Puppies, but probably mostly just nerding out).

    ClassWarfare/lolbertarianism, a thread basically about economics and financial injustices.

    Philosoraptors, thread for discussing and debating philosophy (stuff like consciousness, free will, tearing apart religious apologetics, nature of science, nature of philosophy and logic itself, and so forth).

    The Rainbow, thread for LBGTQ issues.

    The Rift, a thread about atheist internecine warfare.

    Fundagelical Dominion, a thread about Christianity run amok and the general discrimination against religious minorities.

    And To Serve Man, a place for recipes.

  20. chigau (違う) says

    Caine #30
    Yeah. The Iowa thread is going stinky.

    anteprepro #31
    All great ideas!
    I think if you actually propose one, you must also volunteer to curate it.
    (generic ‘you’, not you anteprepro)

  21. anteprepro says

    Thanks chigau. Umm, hopefully brainstorming ideas don’t count as proposals, because I think my hands are too full to handle eight threads. I feel like I talk too much as it is anyway :P

  22. says

    Anteprepro @ 31:

    I think it’s probably best if discussions aren’t splintered too much – so far, there’s a lot of intersectionality going on, which is good. I think the additions of science and world politics are needed, and that gives us all five large discussion rooms.

    #gamergators, a thread about goings-on in gamergate and possibly just internet misogyny in general.

    SciFantasy, thread for nerding out about sci-fi and fantasy (and possibly discussing political issues due to it e.g. Sad Puppies, but probably mostly just nerding out).

    Both of these come well under the Art umbrella, and such discussion and geeking out is welcome.

  23. anteprepro says

    Caine, you are probably right about SciFantasy. I would argue that Gamergate isn’t really about Art though. Though insofar as it doesn’t overlap with art (it is about ethics in internet misogyny) it does significantly overlap with feminist issues. So, good point.

  24. Nightjar says

    Caine,

    I also think most people have forgotten about this thread, so it might be futile to wait on others to express their opinion.

    Yeah, I will send an email to PZ about the Science thread. It will have to wait a few more days, though, I don’t have a lot of time/energy right now and I want to at least start it properly!

    I’m thinking that reports of interesting wildlife sightings and findings by commenters would fit well in such a thread, which should be also a place to celebrate biodiversity. And I’m totally expecting some things to be worth cross-posting to the Art thread too: some macrophotography works and speculative paleontology artwork come to mind right now.

    ***
    anteprepro,

    I really like the idea of a philosophy thread, I hope someone goes for it!

    Ibis3 is accepting LGBTQ-related topics on Feminist Lens for now, but that may well deserve its own thread.

    But I also agree with Caine about not splintering discussions too much.

  25. chigau (違う) says

    Not splintering too much?
    So a thread about moon-light-under-water-left-handed-anarchist-basket-weaving might be too limited?
    ;)

  26. Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought says

    I sent an email to PZ yesterday, considering he’s been away I expect he’s still sorting through his inbox.

  27. says

    Anteprepro:

    I would argue that Gamergate isn’t really about Art though.

    The subheading of art is general discussions of arts, crafts, music, movies and hobbies. (And books. I left out books. And food – discussion of culinary arts is okay too.) So, I was thinking of hobbies, I suppose, when it comes to gaming and gamergate.

  28. says

    Nightjar:

    I really like the idea of a philosophy thread, I hope someone goes for it!

    Well, if Anteprepo doesn’t want to curate this, I think consciousness razor would be excellent at it. Of course, someone would have to talk ‘im into doing it.

  29. anteprepro says

    Caine, oh I know. The actual gaming parts of gamergate could certainly fit into the Art category. (Side Note: I was actually going to propose a Musical Chair thread, about music, until I checked and confirmed that Art included music.)

    And consciousness razor would be perfect for a philosophy thread.

    Honestly, I would be inclined to take a political thread specific to American politics, if I had a co-curator (combine general coverage of Republicans with general coverage of economics, Christianity, and possible additional coverage of assorted internet assholes, and that is basically my bread and butter).

  30. consciousness razor says

    And consciousness razor would be perfect for a philosophy thread.

    Thanks, but I’m sort of terrified that I wouldn’t be able to handle that. Always had problems with commitment too….

    It’s also not very clear how heated or protracted arguments can be in these threads, and I admit I’m often not the best at being super gentle or agreeable. We’re already sort of bending the rules which “require that discussion threads be free of argument and conflict,” if you took that to mean argument and conflict in a broad sense, as opposed to bitter and pointless fighting. I know that basically means he doesn’t want it to be unproductive or alienating to people, but there’d need to be a lot of leeway for that to be worked out by the parties involved, which isn’t so much of an issue when it’s mainly reporting things, sharing/linking things, or discussing things that most of us already agree on. But I don’t think you can avoid getting your hands a little dirty or making some people upset, in cases where there is a significant amount of disagreement.

    Besides, there are philosophies of everything, so I’m not really worried that it couldn’t find a place (or sneak up on you) in threads which are about more specific topics. But I like the intention behind “consciousness, free will, tearing apart religious apologetics, nature of science, nature of philosophy and logic itself, and so forth.” It would be nice to have a semi-open thread about that sort of thing — for the most part we also tend to agree on those things here, so it might cause less trouble. Of course, PZ already concentrates quite a bit on some of that, but it could be a good supplement to whatever he’s doing. That also significantly narrows the scope from a free-for-all “philosophy thread,” which worries me because it might have to do with anything and everything, nothing, whatever else there may or may not be, what there should be, how we should think, what it all means or doesn’t mean, what some of it means, and on and on and on. That may all still be a part of it I guess, but it would help to give people a more definite target.

  31. opposablethumbs says

    So a thread about moon-light-under-water-left-handed-anarchist-basket-weaving might be too limited?

    At the very least there should be a thread whose title is moon-light-under-water-left-handed-anarchist-basket-weaving (even though the thread is actually about politics (or possibly about the Judean People’s Front as opposed to the Popular Front of Judea (splitters))).

  32. Nightjar says

    Caine,

    Right now, there isn’t any thread for this

    It doesn’t help that I’m procrastinating instead of doing the work I should be doing, and before that’s done I can’t think of anything else that even feels like a commitment thing. But I apparently can procrastinate, delaying both getting the work done and doing what I put in the folder “for after this more important thing is done”. And all that because the deadline still doesn’t feel close enough.

    *sigh*

    I hate myself sometimes.

    Anyway,

    http://www.nature.com/news/the-boom-in-mini-stomachs-brains-breasts-kidneys-and-more-1.18064

    I only skimmed but that sounds very cool indeed! And so many applications, from the obvious basic research, to drug testing, to advances in tissue and organ transplantation. I knew research into that was being done, but not being close to my area* I haven’t been keeping up with it so I’m surprised by a lot of that. Will have to read it more carefully later.

    *Although I’m obviously already thinking about the possibility of infecting mini-organs with some bacteria :)

  33. Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened says

    @ Chigau #37

    Perhaps a methamphetamine symposium, or an African Killer Spelling Bee? Slightly broader.

  34. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    x-posted from Discuss: Art.

    What about a Discuss: Making Music forum?

    In particular, what about all that talk of a Pharyngula house band? What if each thread was free-form-ish, but also had as its focus the creation of a new piece of music?

    The curator picks a few things like a key and a time signature and BPM and a lyrical topic, then others record themselves playing suggested themes/melodies. Maybe multiple people make attempts at writing lyrics or maybe the lyrics are picked in advance by the curator to help things hang together, (e.g. “This effort will put the e e cummings poem, ‘next to of course god america i’ to music in the key or keys of E / Cm”). The curator or another volunteer pieces together tracks – some of which might only be a few bars long, if one of our musicians wants to throw some clarinet in the bridge or provide some extra percussion before the song gets going, etc. At the end, we have an honest to goodness new piece of music created by the Horde.

    This provides the touchstone to come back to the thread, but while you’re there you can of course talk about anything music-related you like.

    Does this have merit?

    Does anyone really want a Pharyngula house band to produce real music?
    Inquiring minds want to know.

    If it was successful, it might reduce the scope of Caine’s space just a bit, but I think it would add something really unique. I would love to feel more connected to the people here, and I remember the sense of accomplishment in creating Crystal Clear Consent together.

    What if we regularly created new art together? Wouldn’t that foster the positive, loving community that has characterized Pharyngula at its best?

    I don’t have ideas about how to do this with visual art forms, but we have some awesomely talented writers here. I could see something similar done with fiction: A curator posts the new thread’s theme/central idea. We brainstorm a plot-outline together. Different people write up character sketches and throw them into the mix. Volunteers take certain sections of the outline, using but not limited-to-using characters sketched. The story is pieced together as a quilt. Suggestions are made on how to improve connection and flow between the various parts. These are incorporated to varying degrees according to the amount of consensus, but with a serious effort made to preserve at least some of the original language of each of our volunteer writers and **always** preserving some of the ideas, emotions, character development and plot development of each writer. Finally one or a few editors are chosen from among those folks willing to volunteer. Ta Da! There’s an actual short story or novella produced.

    Along the way, people can talk about the craft of writing and the business of writing, etc. Of course, we can also discuss things that would otherwise be in Caine’s bailiwick (“I just read this new book and it’s terrible/great/mediocre”) but the focus would be on writing – I see more relevance in topics like how to get an agent and when working with pencil serves creativity better than working with a keyboard, and vice versa, &c.

  35. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Another idea I’d left elsewhere, but I’m not knowledgeable enough o curate:

    What about a thread for doing science a la, “Try This At Home!” or “Stand Back, We’re Going to Try Science!”

    Making things go boom with the science kits is what made me think of such a thread. But it could be a place to feature, e.g., all those kids science fair projects that show just how awesome do-it-at-home science can still be; directions for parents to do experiments with kids not old enough to do their own experiments, etc.

    There could be all kinds of awesomeness – from stargazing to actuarial science to tips on creating operational definitions in psychology and sociology (which, I know, can be tricky) to critiquing bad science as a way to have a laugh and get better at doing good science at the same time to, well, the aforementioned boom kits.

    What say ye?

  36. Morgan!? ♥ ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ says

    x-posted from Discuss Art
    I think group authorship of a piece of music or prose is an excellent idea and could be grand fun, although whomever takes on the curating of such projects would have their work cut out for them. I vaguely recall there was a novel some years ago authored by a group of published novelists which was hilarious and actually got published, I think. Need to look this up.

    I unfortunately have zero musical skill or knowledge. The clarinet lessons of my youth were for naught. I would be pleased to contribute to a prose effort, but curating is a thing a don’t have time for, or enough skill for, truth be told. We could call it “The Perils of Social Justice, or, A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To Democracy. Just a thought.

  37. says

    It’s fine to discuss ideas, but remember: I’m not going to do anything unless I get an email from someone volunteering to run it.

  38. says

    Temporarily stickied. Will unstick it on Thursday, before I fly off to the Pacific Northwest for my vacation (I know! I haven’t had one of those in a while!)

  39. says

    PZ:

    Will unstick it on Thursday, before I fly off to the Pacific Northwest for my vacation

    Excitement! Please find time to take many photos for people to oooooh over when you get back.

  40. zenlike says

    A sticky thread? On Pharyngula? The end times are indeed nigh. Next stop: nested threads.

    On a more serious note, am I the only one who thinks we (= the commentariat) have gained more than we have lost? I never really read the open threads, but I was impressed with the more focussed open threads until now. Thanks to all curators and contributors. I hope for a continuation of the current trend.

  41. says

    You have successfully reminded me to charge up the batteries for my Canon T5i before we leave. That thing is magic — it’s hard to take a bad photo with it (although I will try). You might discover next week that I don’t write a word and just post the day’s photos here.

  42. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @zenlike:

    am I the only one who thinks we (= the commentariat) have gained more than we have lost?

    Read more: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2015/07/31/the-tyrant-taketh-and-the-tyrant-giveth/#ixzz3iRN8QnpY

    I think we have the opportunity to gain more than we have lost. Until more people express interest in these alternative threads, however, we won’t gain any new ones (I won’t ask PZ to create one about making music, for instance, unless I know that there’s people who will actually write in and send in tracks).

    The ones we have are lovely, of course, and people do seem to be participating. But at **this** point I’m not sure that we’ve gained more than we’ve lost.

  43. Morgan!? ♥ ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ says

    CD @57,
    I agree. If folks are interested in these participatory projects, it would be nice to know. I would love to participate in a prose effort, as I stated above.

  44. says

    PZ @ 56:

    You might discover next week that I don’t write a word and just post the day’s photos here.

    Works for me!

  45. Mrdead Inmypocket says

    Email you and be a curator? Argh, that sounds like a lot of work. Can’t I just let someone else do all the work and complain incessantly that everything is unfair and not to my liking? That’s sooo much easier and gratifying.

  46. says

    Many thanks to everyone who posted kudos up-thread. I appreciate the appreciation.

    I sent an email to PZ.

    This may take awhile, so please don’t expect immediate results. I proposed that I curate a Moments of Political Madness thread, which is kind of a broad category. I need to think about this a bit more. We’ll have lots of fodder during the run-up to the 2016 presidential campaign in the USA. I follow politics and activism in other countries, but not as thoroughly. Social justice issues and religion are often intertwined with politics.

    Bottom line: I’ll discuss it with PZ and we’ll see what comes of that.

  47. karmacat says

    I’m not sure what thread to put this in but there is a hashtag going around of what a professor looks like (#ILookLikeAProfessor) showing women and POC professors rather than the typical white male with a funny beard. I mean, marvelous beard….

  48. says

    If anyone knows anything about the interesting malformations (mutations?) that happen to sunflowers, I’d love to know about it, over in Discuss Art. This is why I’m asking.

  49. says

    Just floating this as an idea, but how about a thread for discussing disability rights and activism? It could include other disability-related stuff, too, like tips, tricks, life-hacks, how-tos, Q & A.

    Is there any interest, or should I just shelve that one?

  50. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Just floating this as an idea, but how about a thread for discussing disability rights and activism? It could include other disability-related stuff, too, like tips, tricks, life-hacks, how-tos, Q & A.

    I’m all for it, and I would expand the topic to also include primary caregivers, who are also under lots of stress. The real problem is who the curator(s) are. I’m still working full time, so I’m out.

  51. chigau (違う) says

    PZ
    Will you still be accepting suggestions for threads after the unsticking?