Good news in Minnesota: the Catholic church is getting slammed with criminal charges.
Ramsey County Attorney John Choi said Friday his office is filing criminal charges against Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis for “failing to protect children” from an abusive priest.
In a noon news conference Choi said the charges stem from the archdiocese’s handling of complaints about former priest Curtis Wehmeyer, who is now serving a prison term for abusing two boys while he was pastor of Blessed Sacrament Church in St. Paul.
It’s not just that they gave an abuser access to children, it’s not just that they tried to cover it up, it’s that they ignored the church’s own rules on how to handle the pedophiles in their midst. It exposes the fact that Catholic priests tend to mouth one kind of piety while diddling the meaning of those words with their hands.
Religious institutions of all kinds (as in the Duggers) seem to protect pedophiles.
I don’t think that this will be remedied until there is a massive culture change, turning away from out-sized respect for religious institutions. Once more people become outraged at them and demand criminal charges and punishment for the individual pedophiles and the institutions that protected them, it might get better.
Unfortunately, while the influence of religion is getting smaller, it will take some time for it to lose its grip on this society,
Actually, that could happen fast (as it has in Spain) or very fast (as it has in Ireland).
Go RICO on their ass. Treat them like the corrupt organization that they are. Seeing the church leaders doing the perp walk would brighten anyone’s day.
That can’t be the reason. It must be that they broke the laws of the state. Not following your own rules is not a crime.
@Reginald Selkirk:
No. It’s not. However not following your own rules can be evidence of mens rea required to prove violations of particular criminal statutes. For certain crimes, mens era is more difficult to prove than the actus reus. Therefore, for some crimes, whether or not an institution broke its own rules may determine whether or not the prosecutor believes that a case will succeed in proving the elements of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.
Thus not following your own rules **may very well lead to your indictment when following them would have resulted in avoiding your indictment**.
Which goes to exactly what PZ said more colorfully:
Yes. It exposes facts about Catholic priests’ state of mind and intentions, including possibly criminal recklessness and/or criminal purpose.
PZ is dead on. While you’re correct that a statute must be violated, you’ve entirely missed the significance PZ was discussing, the exposure of criminal mens rea.
[It’s not just that they gave an abuser access to children, it’s not just that they tried to cover it up, it’s that they ignored the church’s own rules on how to handle the pedophiles in their midst. It exposes the fact that Catholic priests tend to mouth one kind of piety while diddling the meaning of those words with their hands.]
Catholic priests are pikers in child molestation compared to educators. Children sexually assaulted in schools by employees outnumber children assaulted in churches by priests by orders of magnitude.
Funny how the epidemic of sexual assault against children by educators is never attributed to educators as a profession or to education as a institution, whereas every assault by a priest is pinned on the billion-member Catholic Church.
As an educator, PZ, how do you plan to make amends to the victims of child sexual assault in schools?
Evidenceless statement dismissed as fuckwittery., What’s the matter Dukedog, ever hear of links and evidence? Your word is never evidence, just propaganda for lunacy.
Wow. Dukie learned a new talking point. And it is a fucking disgusting one.
You’ve successfully left your Turd of the Day. Now go the fuck away, Dukie.
Could it be that neurosurgeons have some of the highest rates of sexual misconduct? Is that why they spend so much time trying to point fingers at other suspected sexual deviants?
I’m just asking questions and pointedly not pointing any fingers at any fundamentalist Christian pediatric neurosurgeons who might wander into view.
dukedog
Probably true, since most children attend school and a much smaller number of children attend mass or spent enormous amounts of time around priests. Which means there may be more children overall being abused by educators but the rate and relative percentage of victims who were abused by priests is higher. But still, citation needed.
I hope you don’t take too long to get to your not-at-all hidden point that its really women who do most of the abusing of children (I’m assuming that’s where you’re going with this as it’s a standard MRA talking point).
theDukedog7 .
Doing this
<blockquote>paste copied text here</blockquote>
Results in this
It makes comments with quotes easier to read.
It won’t improve the content.
He still hasn’t been banned?
theDukedog 7 @6:
And where is your citation for this “factoid”?
Even if that were true, the sexual assault of children in schools is not under discussion. The discussion is about the RCC’s ongoing problems with the sexual assault of children which includes protecting the accused priests, covering up the sexual assault of children, for obstructing authorities in their investigations, the lack of transparency from the RCC, and their failure to prevent further abuse. I don’t need x-ray vision to see through your pathetic attempt at derailing.
It’s pinned on the church because rather than aiding authorities and the victims by turning over the priests and giving law enforcement the relevant information, the church swept everything under the rug and protected the perpetrators. And they did all of that while claiming to be the arbiters of morality for the human race.
PZ doesn’t have any responsibility to do so. He has not sexually assaulted any children.
Incidentally if you actually read the criticisms of the church on this matter, you’d know damn well that the vast majority of people are not blaming every member of the Catholic Church for the actions of these priests (many people do criticize lay Catholics who continue to give money to this hateful, bigoted, corrupt organization; that’s a separate-though related-issue). People are blaming the priests and the Church officials across the planet who have covered up these sexual assault cases which stretch back more than 50 years.
Geez Egnor, don’t you have somewhere else to hang out? *We* already know that you have nothing of value to add to any discussion and that you lie and distort the truth to suit your ends. You do it here, over at Dispatches, and Odin knows where else. You have nothing. You are seemingly unable to compose intelligent arguments with credible citations for the claims you make. The hate and bigotry you peddle is nothing we haven’t seen before from the likes of FOX “News”, the Worldnet Daily, or the Blaze. You’ve been refuted countless times, and yet you continue to return to places you’re not welcome. For the life of me, I can’t comprehend why.
Incidentally, I noticed you never returned to the abortion thread. But then, since I refuted every single one of your lies and distortions, I can see why you wouldn’t.
drst @10:
His comment about PZ making amends looked (to me) like he was trying to make another not-so-subtle hint.
Gee, Dukie, what about children sexually mistreated in church-sponsored schools? By your evidence-free logic, that must be worse than everything!
And more to the point — for which there is some evidence (if only anecdotal), in the form of the protestations made at sentencing in at least four matters of which I am aware — how many of those school-based abusers relied upon their status as local church leaders (lay or ordained) to gain increased access to victims, deflect inquiry, or try to limit the punishment? My point is not that this is an explanation… but that its nonzero incidence indicates that a blanket statement is unlikely to be correct, let alone a sound basis for uniform policy.
It’s amazing just how sensitive that filter that detects criticism of one’s group is. It’s capable of making people do all sorts of things.
@theDukedog7
[It’s not just that they gave an abuser access to children, it’s not just that they tried to cover it up, it’s that they ignored the church’s own rules on how to handle the pedophiles in their midst. It exposes the fact that Catholic priests tend to mouth one kind of piety while diddling the meaning of those words with their hands.]
1. Other bad behavior does not make the bad behavior you are fleeing from go away. Don’t be a coward.
2. Citation please.
Yeah! It’s almost like they are a separate social institution or something.
Because the depth to which the social structure penetrates a persons life, the kinds of themes that social structure has to do with and the way society addresses the same crime in the two social arenas totally does not matter.
/sarcasm
PZ has written quite a few blog entries dealing with sexual abuse and educational institutions. Are you even trying?
Tony! @13
Egnor will dump a load in a thread, even make several comments, and after his claims are answered never comes back to those threads. I remember several months ago I asked him why he rejects reality in favor of religious mythology and in reply he asked why I accepted Democritus’ atoms. He never came back to that thread to explain what a 2400 year old atomic theory had to do with his promotion of Genesis over the real world.
@#6- Some things are too obvious for words, but here is an explanation anyway: the reason sexual abuse is linked to a profession in the case of Catholic Church/ clergy is that, by their definition of themselves, the Catholic church is a defender of morality. So, by their own ideals they are hypocrites. While every person has moral obligations, only religious organizations try to claim morality as exclusively theirs or originating with them.
Dukedog, the main problem you ignore in your stupidity is that the RCC claims to be a champion of morality. Then, when they have a problem, they behave in an immoral manner and hide it, shift it, bury it, anything but doing the moral thing. Which is calling the cops/DA and turning in the miscreant, and when convicted, or preferably before based on internal investigations, defrocking the miscreant. Showing the parents and they world they are behaving in a moral fashion, and just protecting themselves with bullshit that they are above secular law….
Now, show us that the public schools claim they are above and not subject to secular law. You can’t, because they, like the RCC, ARE subject to secular law. Only delusional fool like you think otherwise.
You know what happens to teachers who have sex with students? They get fired and become pariahs in their communities.
You know what happens to priests who have sex with their charges? They get shipped off to another parish and a fresh batch of victims.
The response by schools is swift and vigorous and unforgiving. They have nothing to apologize for. If the Catholic church reacted in the same way to child-raping priests, there’d be no institutional guilt…and as an extra bonus, the ranks of priestly rapers would be diminished.
I have long wondered if that’s a product of this mindset which the Duggar parents seem to share.
@20:
[The response by schools is swift and vigorous and unforgiving. They have nothing to apologize for.]
I’ll assume you’re not serious. The education establishment massively covers up for employees who molest children–they even have a name for it–“passing the trash”. Pedophile teachers are passed from school to school and district to district for years.
Get a grip on reality. Child sexual abuse is pervasive, and nowhere is it more common than in schools. Educators make priests look like… celibates.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/27/passing-the-trash-deals-allow-bad-teachers-and-coaches-to-become-mobile-molestors/#
I think you’re ignoring educator abuse and restricting your condemnation to abusive priests because you hate the Catholic Church. Quite analogous to an anti-Semite who only complains about financial dishonesty when it involves a Jew.
You share a lot in common with anti-Semites. It’s just a different religion you hate.
Your evidence is dismissed.
No fuckwitted idjit. Nobody in public schools claims to be above the secular laws. The RCC does. Therefore, they are held to a higher standard, and they fail miserably to show they are moral, honest, and have integrity. The hierarchy is their own worst enemy due to their arrogance and immoral behavior. The hate has a rational basis, except to immoral ignorant fuckwits like yourself, who believe they do no wrong. What a mother fucking loser and scumbag you are for attempting to defend the indefensible…
I don’t know about you all, but I’ve given Mr Egnor more than enough slack, and his recent apologetics for Catholic child-rapers is too much. Banned. You won’t miss him, will you?
Dukedog, you will be dismissed until you show us you are capable of telling the RCC what their moral stance should be, and won’t give them money attendance until they meet that moral standard, which we agree with. Which is defrocking and secular trials for all pedophiles.
Nope.
Dang, I hate it when I reply while PZ is applying the banhammer. Makes my posts seem like non-sequiturs.
Ha ha! The fuckwit cited The Blaze-that bastion of truth and journalistic integrity.
And he continues to try derailing the thread, which is not about sexual abuse of children by school officials.
Can our resident conservative douchebag not deal with the fact that justice may be coming for some officials in the Catholic Church after decades of covering up priests sexually assaulting and abusing children? Or perhaps he’s simply not concerned that children have been harmed by the actions of the Catholic Church in addition to the priests that sexually assaulted them.
Why is our delusional theist not concerned about the RCC-an organization that has the audacity to claim it is moral and good and tries to police the world as if they have any idea what morality is-covering up child sexual abuse cases reaching back decades? Why does he try to deflect the conversation away from the horrible actions of Catholic leaders around the world?
Why does the fool continue to think anyone will believe anything he says, given his propensity for lying and distorting the truth? Stay tuned for more ladies and gentlemen. Grab a front row seat and bring your popcorn and rum. I’m sure the racist, homophobic, reality-denying assclam will be back to treat us all to another round of bald-face assertions backed by no evidence.
Or not.
“You know what happens to teachers who have sex with students? They get fired and become pariahs in their communities.”
Yes, but …
Not often enough. Just because religious organisations are (very much) worse at preventing/stopping/prosecuting sex offenders doesn’t give other institutions with better (but not excellent) records an out. Perhaps “… who get caught red handed having …” would be closer.
I have to admit that things are improving within educational institutions (measured against when I was a student), and that in the overlap of religion and educational environments, things can be even worse.
for example …
Back to the topic … I do find the concept of prosecuting the church appealing, however – what does that mean? It isn’t a physical entity that can be incarcerated, all that can be done would be to fine the organisation.
Or … is there a mechanism in US law to shut down the arch-diocese for crimes of this magnitude?
Tony! The Queer Shoop,
It might not surprise you but Egnor is a Catholic himself, and general an apologist for anything the RCC has ever done wrong (well, from our standpoint, from his, the RCC has never done anything wrong). So to answer your questions, he is a tribalist who staunchly defends ‘his’ tribe. That’s all a conservative mind like his needs.
Not only is the response different (being fired if an educator, being protected if a priest), but there’s also a huge difference in terms of control and, therefore, responsibility. A school is an employer. A teacher working there is bound only by the contract they have. Priests, on the other hand, are basically owned by the Catholic Church institution. They agree to do anything the church tells them, period. Where to live, what job to have, how to behave every minute of their lives. The Church doesn’t just have influence over them, it has complete control over them. That means the Church bears a heavy responsibility for the way those priests act, because if the Church tells them to stop doing something, they’re supposed to have to.
Or, y’know, the other way around: he hates the Catholic Church because it has this massive coverup going…?
And what is it with this attitude that says if you call out one problem, you thereby declare the whole rest of the world to be just peachy-keen? Nowhere has PZ defended coverups elsewhere.
I know it’s a defense mechanism but i really fail to comprehend the “yeah, well, other people do bad stuff too” as an excuse…People genuinely say that and then just ignore the fucking problem as if the fact that fucked up shit happens in multiple areas, means the fucked up shit isn’t really happening. How? Why? What?!?
I wonder if the prevalence of this kind of resigned acceptance of the bad stuff among catholics has anything to do with the dark, dreary, we are all sinners and we deserve bad shit, subtext that is so common in catholic doctrine, but it’s an extremely worrying degree of apathy in the face of a lot of suffering.
I’ll miss puke dog like a sprained ankle. As for the RCC, sue the assholes out of existence.
WhiteHatLurker @30
People can be incarcerated. Imprison archdiocese leaders for covering up child abuse. If covering up / enabling child abuse is not a crime it should be.
OT but enabling prostitution is apparently a USA federal crime. See http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_28165929/bay-area-prostitution-website-mastermind-sent-prison for the shutdown of a narrowly focused social networking site.
Enabling child abuse is worse.
A large enough fine could be used to take real estate. Level the property. Sell the property. As Ex-RCC property its value to commercial developers may be low. Pick another property. Repeat until the fine is paid.
Build parks if commercial interest is low.
It may not “shut down the arch-diocese” but it sure sends the desired message all the way to the pope.
Can we ban Egnor from Ed’s blog as well? If only to stop SLC1 replying to him?
Back on topic, the sad thing about the Minneapolis case is that none of the individuals responsible for the coverup are charged. They should be in prison.
Peter B @36:
Also, they could have the tax-exempt status revoked.
PZ, I just want to compliment you on your patience and restraint. I would have banned the fucker long ago, if only to protect my own brain from an aneurysm due to soaring blood pressure.
Miss him? Yeah, like a toothache.