Comments

  1. says

    NO ONE IN THE WORLD IS AFRAID OF THE U.S. ANYMORE

    Ah, and there, in lovely capslock, is the fear shared by asshole conservatives. They don’t wish to be part of the world, they want their arses on the throne.

  2. raven says

    I’m going to have to give them a C.

    No one in PZ’s examples have offered to pray for him yet.

    Or threatened to kill him. Yet.

  3. Akira MacKenzie says

    …they clearly haven’t read either what I wrote, or what the North Star wrote…

    Not that it would matter if they did either. They still would agree with the North Star’s goons and lambasted you for daring to criticize them.

  4. says

    and light up the night sky with huge bonfires of western literature.

    I wonder if Mr. Pretentious understands what western literature means.

  5. mikeyb says

    The mindless army of Fox propagandized trolls are on the attack. Are any of these guys capable of stepping back and looking at the facts first before their knee jerk self righteous blathering has to spew out? Are any of them capable of saying something mmm original?

  6. says

    Just to be fair, I should mention that there are supportive letters as well…they’re outnumbered 10:1, but they’re there.

    And really, I suck up the rage tears with joy.

  7. mikeyb says

    But seriously I’d be scared if someone like Glenn Beck got a hold of a story like this and ran with it. Recall how his deranged tides foundation follower reacted to his propaganda. A small percentage of these guys (I do mean guys) are seriously deranged.

  8. Larry says

    Daily KOS used to have a weekly feature hilighting the best emails received from the knuckle-draggers that week. It was highly amusing, to say the least. I’d say you are making progress in obtaining sufficient material for a similar feature.

    Also, when I started reading the emails, I was wondering if there’d be at least one in all caps. I’m thankful that the wingers never disappoint in that regard.

    It’s gold, Professor. Gold!

  9. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I thnk maybe PZ misinterpreted one:

    I looked up your picture – that’s what an intolerant bigot looks like
    Typical of your ideology – free speech only for those who comply with the bigots.

    This is so fractured, I understand how it might be misinterpreted.

    “I looked up your picture – that’s what an intolerant bigot looks like” can be translated:

    “Me looking up your picture [after knowing nothing about you but what a slanted news outlet released] is what an intolerant bigot looks like”

    “Typical of your ideology – free speech only for those who comply with the bigots” can be translated:

    Typical of those of your ideology, you make statements I do not wish to engage. Thus I advocate free speech on for those who comply with the bigots, who, as we recently learned, look like me. This will protect me from experiencing dissent in the future.

    Frankly, that comment was astonishingly self-aware. You, however, couldn’t understand because you were engaging in improper exegesis.

    ====================
    Also:

    burning an American flag and a cheap Chinese reproduction of the U.S. Constitution.

    Would that blockhead prefer that protestors burn a first printing constitution? A signed first printing?

    Or does he think that somehow in the US laser printers won’t spit out 7 cents worth of toner and paper if it carries a copy of the constitution…unless $1000 is donated into the “too valuable to burn fund”?

    I find quite a lot admirable about the US constitution, but if it will help this writer get over some delusions, I’ll quite happily print out a cheap Canadian copy of the constitution and burn it. The writer deserves some pity, after all.

  10. Moggie says

    I am most disappointed with the academic standards at the U of M, if it can graduate someone who believes that “alumni” is singular, and that exclamation marks are best used in threes.

  11. says

    Were there any that were, at least in principle, worth engaging with? You having the time to spend on that project is another matter, just wondering if there are any potentially rational critics in the bunch…

  12. says

    Rawnaeris:

    It’s posts like these that make me miss Smoggy’s comments.

    Aye. Lots of material for Smoggy in all that.

  13. gussnarp says

    I wonder if they all are just assuming, based on Starnes sort of leaving it entirely out, that the content of this rag is actually just regular old conservative stuff and you’re going too far, or if they’re all racists scumbags, too?

  14. reasonbe says

    man PZ, I’m so sorry you have to put up with this stuff. Keep up your good work.

  15. Louis says

    Hey So Called PZ Myers!

    How dare you you quote people directly and put those quotes on your publicly readable website where people can comment and disagree with you? How dare you do this on the Internet where people can create their own websites and say whatever they want?

    What about free speech So Called PZ Myers? Huh?

    Louis

  16. coffeehound says

    I GUARANTEE YOU PUTIN WOULD NOT BE DOING WHAT HE IS DOING IF WE HAD A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WHO IS NOT AFRAID OF HIS OWN FUCKIN SHADOW….

    YAH, BOY WE SURE SAW THAT WHEN GW PUSHED THE RUSSKIES OUT OF GEORGIA IN ’08……HAHA. Oh, wait, that didn’t happen….
    Dickweed.

    And I loved this smug bullshit,

    You could trash all manner of authentic, classical western liberal literature and, instead of being taunted, you could be praised and revered by your fellow travelers on the “shining path.”

    Because verbally trashing an overtly racist rag ( that is, expressing an opinion) is just like communist book burning and totalitarianism….if you have a degree, give it back, you have work to do yet, poor fool…

  17. says

    @raven

    No one in PZ’s examples have offered to pray for him yet.

    All the caps and excess punctuation must’ve numbed your eyes:

    I won’t return your hate speech with more hate speech (so I won’t call you names), but with a prayer that you can find it in yourself to rise se to a level equal to your education. – U of M alumni [sic]

  18. John Horstman says

    Did I just get compared to the president of the United States?

    That crosses a line. You haven’t been killing civilians with flying death machines, spying on the entire American public, defending torturers, OR injecting religion into public policy.

    @Moggie #13: Win!

  19. Al Dente says

    Moggie @13

    exclamation marks are best used in threes.

    In conservaspeak, three exclamation points AT A MINIMUM!!! are required when writing to a liberal.

  20. Louis says

    Also, you done used a swearing which means you are a fucking dumbass.

    Oh balls, it’s impossible to parody this crap properly. Voltaire’s prayer and Russell’s observation demonstrated true yet again. I’m off to start drinking heavily. Okay I never really stopped, but I think it’s time to move to eyeball vodkas and anally administered tequila.*

    Louis

    * I am aware these are both really bad ideas, for so many reasons, but hey I’m so clearly exaggerating only an utter fuckwit would bother to comment on their unwiseness and offer me advice, right? Right?

  21. Jacob Schmidt says

    [EVERY] COUNTRY OUT THERE JUST LAUGHS AT THE U.S….CANT WAIT TO GET THE REPUBLICANS BACK IN CONTROL

    I find it odd that this guy knows that the US is a bit of an international punchline, but doesn’t know why. Here’s several reasons:

    -Bush;
    -The Iraq war;
    -The US’s massive and massively unnecessary military spending;
    -Lack of socialized medicine;

  22. fourtytwo says

    Wow. I honestly don’t know how you manage to put up with this stream of ignorant abuse, particularly on top of the three law suits. I think this would get to me eventually. I’m just glad to see you are made of sterner stuff and that you are able to bat away their stupidity so nonchalantly (your 8 limbs may help with this). Keep up the good work. The world needs more people like you to ridicule and expose the regressive bigots that hold civilisation back.

  23. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    Myers: “I drink your tears.
    That’s how Charles Ng
    felt, I expect.
    Freethought blog or thoughtfree blog? Atheists define themselves by their opposition. That’s a mistake. “Materialist” neutrally describes the materialist worldview.

  24. Jacob Schmidt says

    That’s how Charles Ng[1]
    felt, I expect.
    Freethought blog or thoughtfree blog?[2] Atheists define themselves by their opposition. That’s a mistake. “Materialist” neutrally describes the materialist worldview.[3]

    1) Really? No, Really? Ahahahahaha, lordy, thats funny.

    2) I believe the insult is supposed to be FfTB, or “Free-from-thought blogs.”

    3) Everything between point 2 and 3 is an incoherent mess.

  25. Allan Frost says

    Have you received any emails asking why you force your poor students to write: “GOD IS DEAD” yet?

  26. Doug Little says

    Jacob @26

    Your’e forgetting the interesting poll numbers on:

    a) Denial of Evolution
    b) Age of the Earth

    Also a severe lack of knowledge when it comes to other countries and cultures.

  27. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    No dissent. Lot’s of stupid and pliant drones ready to receive your illiberal instruction and light up the night sky with huge bonfires of western literature. Come to think of it, it’s a lot like the University of Minnesota-Morris.

    Yes. A lot like that. The great works of Western literature and poorly written racist satire. Pretty much interchangeable.

  28. anbheal says

    Louis @25 — yes, I’ll be the one to offer you advice, being an utter fuckwit in training: Remember, the eye-dropper is for the vodka, the turkey-baster for the tequila, and not vice-versa. You could get case of pink-eye if you confuse them later in the evening.

  29. mikeyb says

    @30. It’s a well know fact that atheist professors force their students to renounce Jesus or face getting an F in class, how else is a good liberal college supposed to operate. After all we atheists hate the god we know exists because we love sin. At least that’s what some Xians I’ve talked to have told me in the past.

  30. raven says

    .Malcolm Kirkpatrick: Freethought blog or thoughtfree blog?

    You know who else said that. Stalin, Pol Pot, Timothy McVeigh, and Osama bin Laden.

    It’s just a stupid insult from a Fox Nonews idiot.

    Atheists define themselves by their opposition. That’s a mistake.

    Fundie xians define themselves by who they hate. It’s just tribalism and thousands of years old.

    It’s not a mistake. It’s malign and reprehensible. Nothing uplifting or positive about it at all. Any idiot can hate. And it’s all they have, hate, lies, and hypocrisy.

  31. nich says

    I think it’s kind of hilarious that when they noticed all their issues were gone, they instantly assumed people had simply chucked them in the trash. Self-confidence. Yer doin’ it wrong.

  32. Jacob Schmidt says

    Does anybody have access to the comments on the fox news article? It says there are no comments, but there were almost 270 last time I checked.

    Did Fox delete them all and close the comments?

  33. Louis says

    Cheers for the advice Boygenius and Anbheal. Vital stuff. That’s not fuckwittery, them’s pro-tips.

    Dammit, why do you people have to cheer me up when I’m in a mood? Inconsiderate. I blame Obama.

    Louis

  34. Kevin Kehres says

    @30…that’s the philosophy professor. He is much buffer than PZ. All philosophy professors lift.

  35. Rob Grigjanis says

    Louis @25:

    anally administered tequila

    My advice: Stay well away from arse liquors.

  36. cswella says

    Okay I never really stopped, but I think it’s time to move to eyeball vodkas and anally administered tequila.

    I think it unwise and wish to offer you advice.

  37. imthegenieicandoanything says

    Cheese! They sound like the inhabitants of Moe’s Bar, when Moe is in the back and Homer and (weirdly) Barney aren’t around.

    [dons “Nelson” mask and points] HA-ha!

    Of course, if they had the ability to converse and the potential to be honest, I’d simply talk with them sincerely. They know they’re unhappy, and that their dishonesty about that (and everything else) keeps them unhappy all the time about everything.
    But they focus on how embarrassing it would be to admit they’re only human like me and every other human. And they’re angry at being merely human.

    There’s not much anyone else can do about that, save limit the effect of their hatred.

  38. dutchdelight says

    Atheists define themselves by their opposition.

    This gentleman has clearly figured it all out, atheists define themselves by all the things theists think are important.
    Such humble people these theists.

  39. says

    Atheists define themselves by their opposition

    I must not have got the memo on how I am supposed to “define” myself. Or that there was some particular opposition I’m supposed to be against because I am an atheist. It’s interesting because i had never felt any type of opposition towards religion (in general).

  40. Al Dente says

    Atheists define themselves by their opposition. That’s a mistake.

    As an atheist I just don’t believe in gods. My atheism isn’t in opposition to anything. So you’re the one making a mistake.

  41. says

    Just got this one:

    First of all, I now see why you are an ass-ociate professor and not a professor at some small school nobody has heard of. You are a pitiful excuse for an educator. And yes, you did just get compared to POTUS, as a “piece of shit”. Hey, congratulations! Evidently it shows your true intellect. Obviously, you are not “fine” with conservative viewpoints. Because if you truly are/were “fine” with them, nobody outside of UMM would even know of or give a rats ass about your meaningless existence. Trayvon Martin?? REALLY!?!?! You truly are pathetic. If you care so much for “dead black boys”, maybe you should move to the nearest inner city ‘hood and start volunteering. Afterall, the overwhelmingly majority of “dead black boys”, came by the hand of another black boy. So until those statistics dramatically change, cry me a f’n river! Another white male left winger who “cares so much” for the plight of African Americans, who are only waiting for the next hand-out. You’re an atheist also?? Congratulations, I’ve heard there are no atheists in foxholes. Have fun burning in hell. Otherwise, I will pray for you…….to burn in hell sooner rather than later.

    Yep. Racists.

  42. Doug Little says

    There’s always one who loves his capslock key.

    AND MULTIPLE PUNCTUATION MARKS….FOLLOWED BY UNIMAGINATIVE INSULTS…..AND FRACTURED IDEAS….MIXED WITH POOR SENTENCE STRUCTURE…..

  43. David Marjanović says

    Recep Tayyıp Erdoğan

    Oh, a hypercorrectivism. The Man Who Would Be Caliph Instead Of The Caliph is in fact Tayyip with dotted i.

    Gramsci? I had to look him up. Is he the new Saul Alinsk[y]?

    No, the old one.

    Freethought blog or thoughtfree blog? Atheists define themselves by their opposition. That’s a mistake. “Materialist” neutrally describes the materialist worldview.

    Given that E = mc², I much prefer “physicalist”… not that I understand your point in the first place.

  44. Doug Little says

    Another white male left winger who “cares so much” for the plight of African Americans, who are only waiting for the next hand-out.

    You can’t make this shit up. /Grabs new bag of popcorn.

  45. blf says

    Even reading the quoted e-mails sideways, deliberately quote-mining with full intent to distort and parody…… is pointless. Are there really people (and I use that term loosely) that stoopid ?

    (I rather do hope some of them show up here — my teeth need a good cleaning to workout / sharpening to become nice and sniny…)

  46. Doug Little says

    I rather do hope some of them show up here — my teeth need a good cleaning to workout / sharpening to become nice and sniny

    Yeah, I thought we would have had some brave souls comment by now, I’ve been checking back periodically but to no avail.

  47. says

    Holy fucking shit, those angry people drive me fucking mad. MAD!!!!!!!!!!
    I hate those haters!!
    Those fuckwits can’t get away with calling people rude names!
    Those intolerant shits must be CRUSHED.

    I’m so ANGRY about how angry they are!!!

    AAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

  48. says

    I’ve heard there are no atheists in foxholes
    And I’ve heard this guy blows goats.

    But, on this stupid saying – I was having a conversation with someone about it the other day, and they kept saying “you don’t know what goes through someones head right before they die”. Which made me ask them about people who commit suicide. ‘Cause if there truly are no atheists’ in fox holes, then you’d think there wouldn’t be a lot of suicide, that whole thing where you’d go to hell.

  49. opposablethumbs says

    Gramsci? I had to look him up. Is he the new Saul Alinsk[y]?

    No, the old one.

    Thread so won.
    .
    PZ, my hat is off to you. I’m exhausted just reading this level of drivel, and you have to keep shovelling your inbox clear of such rubbish. Some of them are pretty funny, though!

  50. Doug Little says

    ‘Cause if there truly are no atheists’ in fox holes, then you’d think there wouldn’t be a lot of suicide, that whole thing where you’d go to hell.

    I’ve never understood why committing suicide was a sin, you are just trying to hang with the big guy a little earlier than usual. Is this similar to when you get into trouble for opening your Christmas presents early?

  51. moarscienceplz says

    What amazes me is all these Faux News teat-suckers actually READING an article!
    True fact: The logo on F-N rotates because when it was static, their mouth-breather audience kept the tee-vee on that one channel so long that it would burn the image into the screen.

  52. Kevin Kehres says

    @59…in addition, you don’t know how many “theists” in foxholes die thinking “I wasted my whole life praying?”

    The opposite claim is also true — therefore, it’s just as likely that there are no theists in foxholes, either.

  53. raven says

    But, on this stupid saying – I was having a conversation with someone about it the other day, and they kept saying “you don’t know what goes through someones head right before they die”.

    So what? Neither does whatever xian you were talking too. All xians who die could be secretly atheists. It’s likely that some are.

    We absolutely know that many self proclaimed “xians” are just box checkers. Source Ipso Mori poll, Barna, others.

    And these days, most xians don’t seem so sure there is a heaven and they are going to be there. They may say they believe, but they lack surety. Because none of them are in much of hurry to go there.

    And they always buy really dubious books by people who claim to have “seen heaven”. Like they are desperately grasping at straws.

  54. moarscienceplz says

    @#61 Doug Little

    I’ve never understood why committing suicide was a sin

    I think it’s because dead people can’t toss money into the collection plate.

  55. a_ray_in_dilbert_space says

    JJ831 : “you don’t know what goes through someones head right before they die”.

    Well, if they’re in a foxhole, chances are it’s a piece of shrapnel.

  56. raven says

    But, on this stupid saying – I was having a conversation with someone about it the other day, and they kept saying “you don’t know what goes through someones head right before they die”.

    On this same subject.

    1. My friend’s parents are dead. Both very old, 90’s so not unexpected.

    2. Both were lifelong Catholics, big family, Catholic schools, going to Mass.

    3. First one said in his will that he was an atheist and didn’t want a Catholic funeral.

    4. The next one said something similar.

    Surprised the kids but none of them are now Catholics either so they didn’t care. My friend is a Pagan.

  57. militantagnostic says

    Inali @6

    I wonder if Mr. Pretentious understands what western literature means.

    Zane Grey?

  58. mikeyb says

    It occurs to me that since ‘there are no atheists in foxholes,’ why don’t Christians carry around portable foxholes and have atheists sit in them for a moment. It would have the added benefit of converting people with out having to blather out all that mythological BS in the process, so it would be more efficient too.

  59. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Jebus, the roar of “freeze peach”, don’t criticize my fuckwitted opinion, is very loud. The avowed racists obviously don’t understand the concept of free speech, where the content of anything stupid they say can and will be criticized in public….

  60. Jacob Schmidt says

    I’ve never understood why committing suicide was a sin, you are just trying to hang with the big guy a little earlier than usual. Is this similar to when you get into trouble for opening your Christmas presents early?

    I was told it was an extension of “no killing”; apparently killing oneself counts.

    This can be especially tragic in Catholic families, what with the whole “repent to a priest” thing. The one who commits suicide isn’t capable of penance, after all, and therefore goes to hell.

  61. screechymonkey says

    Doug Little @61:

    I’ve never understood why committing suicide was a sin, you are just trying to hang with the big guy a little earlier than usual. Is this similar to when you get into trouble for opening your Christmas presents early?

  62. screechymonkey says

    Oops, sorry, meant to add my comment: “It’s like closing a loophole.”

  63. says

    OMG I used to love anything written by Louis l’Amour. When I was, like, ten. Soon I moved into harder stuff, like Alistair MacLean and Stephen King. (Even Dean Koontz in desperate moments.)

  64. see_the_galaxy says

    Typical lying conservacrap, all of it. It’s like these people think we haven’t heard Limbaugh or Savage talking points before.

  65. ck says

    Jacob Schmidt wrote:

    I was told it was an extension of “no killing”; apparently killing oneself counts.

    Really? I always heard it explained that ending your own life was defying God’s plan for your life (i.e. if he wants you to suffer for another three decades, you’ll take your lumps and like it), and therefore a sin against God.

  66. anteprepro says

    ck and Jacob Schmidt:

    Really? I always heard it explained that ending your own life was defying God’s plan for your life (i.e. if he wants you to suffer for another three decades, you’ll take your lumps and like it), and therefore a sin against God.

    Basically it is this plus the no killing thing: Only God is allowed to kill. Because it’s his plan and his Authoritah and blah blah blah. And the Biblical basis for the argument is minimal at best, but that’s just par for the course.

  67. ck says

    militantagnostic wrote:

    Inali @6

    I wonder if Mr. Pretentious understands what western literature means.

    Zane Grey?

    Maybe Tom Clancy?

  68. anteprepro says

    And Faux News did its job right: I bet half these blinkered jackasses wouldn’t dare to be angrily bleating at Myers if the Author Extraordinaire hadn’t conveniently scrubbed out any details of the original content that PZ was objecting to. Though obviously the one that PZ just mentioned in the comment is just racist enough to probably not give a shit about that detail. “Freeze Peach!!” and “Youz discriminatin aginst Republicanz!1!!1″ is the only narrative they get, is the only one they want, and is the only one they will continue to accept.

  69. anteprepro says

    Reading through the e-mails again: Do Faux News thralls have an Obama bashing quota they need to meet or something? It seems like some them are trying their damndest to bring Obama into whatever the fuck their already ill-conceived gripe is.

  70. ck says

    @anteprepro,

    Look, there’s a man with the wrong skin pigmentation in the White House. Clearly, he must be the source of everything wrong in America. What else could it be?

  71. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It seems like some them are trying their damndest to bring Obama into whatever the fuck their already ill-conceived gripe is.

    Gee, if you are a racist fuckwit, then having a POTUS who is even half-black is the ultimate insult. You must show respect for a position occupied legitimately (via election of the people) by a person who is black…..

  72. moarscienceplz says

    #79 Anteprepro

    Only God is allowed to kill.

    Of course, any human is allowed to kill too, if God “told” them to do it.

  73. qwerty says

    I am sure John Geiger is rubbing his hands in glee over all this attention.

    What a nitwit!

    Faux News Slogan Should Be: We Report (bullshit); You Decide (To blindly follow)

  74. David Marjanović says

    Suicide is blasphemy against the Lord Over Life And Death.

    Do Faux News thralls have an Obama bashing quota they need to meet or something?

    Obama is to their left. PZ is to their left. Do the math.

    Faux News Slogan Should Be: We Report (bullshit); You Decide (To blindly follow)

    Years ago someone discovered it’s We Distort, We Deride.

  75. anteprepro says

    ATTENTION ATTENTION: THIS IS THE WINGNUT EMERGENCY BROADCAST SYSTEM. THERE IS STILL A BLACK MAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE. I REPEAT: A BLACK MAN. AND HE IS CHANGING LAWS ABOUT HEALTHCARE!!!!! STOCK UP ON GUNS!! MORE GUNS!!!! FASTER!!!! CALL YOUR SENATORS AND MAKE SURE THEY KEEP OBSTRUCTING! REMEMBER TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE FUND PRESERVING SCALIA’S PICKLED HEART! AND WHATEVER YOU DO, GUNS!!!

  76. ck says

    I paged through a number of the comments on the Fox News page, and it really is shocking that it occurred to none of them that maybe students just took all the papers and that it might’ve been a popular publication. Instead, they’ll believe the conspiracy theory that a professor used his sciency chemicals to steal them off the rack.

  77. newfie says

    When I’m in a foxhole, I start believing in leprechauns. At least they have gold and don’t murder the whole planet when they get pissed.

  78. Nemo says

    Taking some of these together with “conservativeface”, I’m sensing a new meme on the right: Conservatives as a poor, oppressed minority. (I wish.) I know Christians have been doing it for a while, but the idea of political conservatives as a class that need to have their delicate feelings protected, is new to me.

  79. FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!) says

    anteprepro #88

    Sure, make me choke back a laugh into a snort loud enough to be heard the other end of the shop. A customer asked me what was so funny. I live in a conservative rural town you bastard; I didn’t dare repeat your alert! :)

  80. anteprepro says

    newfie

    At least they have gold and don’t murder the whole planet when they get pissed.

    Your ignorance is enviable.

    (For a very, very liberal definition of “the whole planet”. Give him enough sequels and he might get there though)

  81. Jacob Schmidt says

    ck

    Really? I always heard it explained that ending your own life was defying God’s plan for your life (i.e. if he wants you to suffer for another three decades, you’ll take your lumps and like it), and therefore a sin against God.

    *shrug*

    I suspect there’s a dozen arguments for why its a sin to commit suicide.

    But how do they know God’s plan wasn’t for me to commit suicide? Maybe it was. Its obviously in God’s plan for people to die, so why is that one category of cause written off as “not god’s plan?”

    And for that matter, how easily thwarted is God’s plan if anyone could throw it off the rails like that?

    *shrug*

  82. anteprepro says

    Nemo:

    Taking some of these together with “conservativeface”, I’m sensing a new meme on the right: Conservatives as a poor, oppressed minority. (I wish.

    The irony of that “conservativeface” article by Ben Shapiro: It was about how Colbert was making conservatives look bad by acting like a sexist and racist conservative. What does the author do to dispel that stereotype? By complaining about how mocking conservatives for their political ideology is Just As Bad as fucking blackface. And this from a person also saying that Colbert is such an over-the-top caricature of right-wingers that he couldn’t possibly earn anything but the viewer’s ire. Yet Colbert’s character is far more sympathetic than Ben Fucking Shapiro, trying to pretend that Colbert’s satire is akin to goddamn blackface. Fucking damn. It only confirms that satire can never be as ridiculous as real right-wingers.

    FossilFishy:

    Sure, make me choke back a laugh into a snort loud enough to be heard the other end of the shop. A customer asked me what was so funny. I live in a conservative rural town you bastard; I didn’t dare repeat your alert! :)

    If it was a conservative rural town, you should have warned them about how Obama is still President and is still black. They need to know this. Or else something something something gay Kenyan godless Muslim abortion death panel of the gun control New World Order.

  83. rorschach says

    Something is very wrong with public school education in the US of A. Seeing these kinds of comments and the staggering lack of knowledge, the degree of misinformation and the extent of emotional immaturity and more or less uncontrolled rage on display, the people writing those comments were let down by their governments state and federal in more ways than one.

    Cavemen with rudimental spelling skills.

  84. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

    Louis #19

    Hey So Called PZ Myers!

    How dare you you quote people directly and put those quotes on your publicly readable website where people can comment and disagree with you? How dare you do this on the Internet where people can create their own websites and say whatever they want?

    What about free speech So Called PZ Myers? Huh?

    Louis

    Yeah, man, sing it! Power to the people, baby!
    Oh wait, slogan from wrong wing. How about, Obama is destroying free speech!

  85. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    I’ve never understood why committing suicide was a sin, you are just trying to hang with the big guy a little earlier than usual. Is this similar to when you get into trouble for opening your Christmas presents early?

    Suicide cheats Jesus of your suffering.

  86. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

    Doug Little #53

    AND MULTIPLE PUNCTUATION MARKS….FOLLOWED BY UNIMAGINATIVE INSULTS…..AND FRACTURED IDEAS….MIXED WITH POOR SENTENCE STRUCTURE…..

    That’s way too coherent. You are really bad at that.

  87. newfie says

    rorschach
    “Something is very wrong with public school education in the US of A.”

    LDS training ain’t much better, it seems.
    A pair of ‘elders’ were kind enough to pay me a visit this morning. During our conversation, I mentioned that Joseph Smith was a convicted con man who was ‘encouraged’ to move west from New York State by unfriendly former associates. One elder offered that Smith never moved west. “Missouri and Illinois aren’t west of New York?” I replied.
    Kids these days… they don’t even watch South Park.

  88. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

    And concerning former criminal code provisions making suicide illegal, one of my law profs said that it was a really stupid law, since clearly only attempted suicide could ever be charged. He also said that he thought the legal theory was that only the state would have the right to decide an execution of a citizen. That everyone had value to the state, and shouldn’t go wasting resources like that.
    He was pretty cool.

  89. bryanfeir says

    I was told it was an extension of “no killing”; apparently killing oneself counts.

    That may be the official doctrine in some places, but what I heard was that the ban on suicide came back when Christians really were a persecuted minority under the pre-Constantine Romans, because people were committing suicide to gain early access to their Heavenly rewards and escape the pain of life on Earth. And so suicide was made officially a sin because the early Church leaders were worried the Church would be empty if they didn’t.

    Sort of like how the Cross became a symbol of Christianity despite the ‘no graven images’ commandment because it was really difficult to recruit early Roman non-members when they couldn’t easily explain why they didn’t have some sort of image or symbol to represent their god for worship.

  90. ck says

    Jacob Schmidt wrote:

    But how do they know God’s plan wasn’t for me to commit suicide? Maybe it was. Its obviously in God’s plan for people to die, so why is that one category of cause written off as “not god’s plan?”

    Because free will or something like that. They can’t have God make you do something, or they wouldn’t be able to condemn it (by saying He condemns it). Therefore, if you take matters into your own hands, it’s a sin most of the time.

    And for that matter, how easily thwarted is God’s plan if anyone could throw it off the rails like that?

    Well, their God is really quite small and surprisingly powerless despite being awarded attributes like omnipotent, infinite and omniscient.

  91. says

    So, I have not read all the comments here, but I am sure I am not the only one to go to that Fox website and basically troll them. Two basic themes – 1) they don’t understand that the first amendment applies to government behavior (they never do) 2) they don’t understand that PZ is also allowed to have free speech too.

    If they want to complain about his horrible views, that’s cool.

  92. raven says

    Half of Fox News’ Viewers Are 68 and Older – The Atlantic
    www. theatlantic. com/…/01/…fox-news-viewers…68…/283385/‎

    by Derek Thompson – in 815 Google+ circlesJan 27, 2014 – Fox News is losing younger viewers at an even faster rate than its competitors. With a median viewer age now at 68 according to Nielsen data …

    1. The average age of Fox News viewers is 68.

    That means the fractured English and general gibberish is from people who went to school 2 generations ago. Or three.

    2. So, if the average educational achievement levels have been going down, imagine what the average young Fox News viewer’s language skills are like. Assuming they can figure out how to turn on a computer and use a keyboard.

  93. anteprepro says

    carolineborduin:

    If they want to complain about his horrible views, that’s cool.

    What do you mean by that?

  94. FossilFishy (NOBODY, and proud of it!) says

    If it was a conservative rural town, you should have warned them about how Obama is still President and is still black. They need to know this. Or else something something something gay Kenyan godless Muslim abortion death panel of the gun control New World Order.

    You’re right! I’m pretty sure these rural Aussies have forgotten that. ;)

  95. Jacob Schmidt says

    bryanfeir

    That may be the official doctrine in some places, but what I heard was that the ban on suicide came back when Christians really were a persecuted minority under the pre-Constantine Romans, because people were committing suicide to gain early access to their Heavenly rewards and escape the pain of life on Earth. And so suicide was made officially a sin because the early Church leaders were worried the Church would be empty if they didn’t.

    Oooh, that’s pretty cool actually. I’ll have to look into that.

    ck

    Therefore, if you take matters into your own hands, it’s a sin most of the time.

    So, everything anyone ever does? If I chop down a tree for which God had some unspecified use, that’s a sin?

  96. Jacob Schmidt says

    If they want to complain about his horrible views, that’s cool.

    What do you mean by that?

    I think xe means that complaining about PZ’s views isn’t a free speech issue, whereas many of their complaints are mangled applications of the first amendment.

  97. anteprepro says

    JacobSchmidt: I ask because the way she phrased “his horrible views”, referring to PZ’s views, caroline could either mean
    1. That PZ’s views are “horrible” according to the Fox News Folks and should be what they focus on.
    2. That PZ’s views really are “horrible” and should be the focus of the discussion for everyone.

    I was requesting clarification before I assumed the latter and started an argument that didn’t need starting.

  98. anteprepro says

    FossilFishy:

    You’re right! I’m pretty sure these rural Aussies have forgotten that. ;)

    Rural Aussies do tend to have a poor in regards to knowing that Obama is their evil black Muslim overlord. Maybe Murdoch will finally return to his land of birth and ensure that you are all thoroughly informed with The Gospel According to Fox, shortly before you officially join Americaland.

    JacobSchmidt:

    So, everything anyone ever does? If I chop down a tree for which God had some unspecified use, that’s a sin?

    Honestly, hard to say whether ANY interference with God’s perfect and unknowable plan counts as a sin. But, needless to say, pretty much anything you can do is a sin, because there are a ridiculous number of sins. Christian “Jesus Magic Means Kosher Is Not Needed!” Dogma, plus a dash of Cafeteria Christianity lets the True Believers selectively ignore certain “sins” when it is convenient. But when they want to come up with a reason to call somebody a sinner? Well the rules that they stole from the Jewish tomes they tacked their religious pamphlets onto are more than enough for that job.

    So yes, pretty much everything is a sin. Not so much because there is a coherent logic behind all of it, as much as that the Bible is a nonsensical mish-mash that argues for everything and its opposite.

  99. krubozumo says

    #1 – would that that were true.

    Myers, you do good work,. I am not referring to your research, about that I know nothing at all, this though is interesting stuff. Insight into the ‘thinking’ of conservatives. Dropping a meme into the blogosphere elicits a maelstrom of incoherent, illiterate and vehement blowback from the dull penumbra of the right wing fringe. I say the penumbra because of the lack of death threats. So far.

    Has anyone done any research into where the publishers of North Star get their money?All that printing
    does not come free. What exactly is their tax status? Are they a non-profit? Are they all volunteer or do
    some people get paid? All interesting questions.

    Louis – I am with you on the heavy drinking idea but I’ll take a pass on the unconventional methods of
    imbibing. Whiskey by mouth works very well.

    Technically speaking, is a tentacle an appendage?

    My calculator does octal. Is that some kind of sign of the kraken?

  100. ck says

    Jacob Schmidt wrote:

    So, everything anyone ever does? If I chop down a tree for which God had some unspecified use, that’s a sin?

    First rule of totalitarian leadership: Those you rule must never know if any particular act runs afoul of the law or not, and all subjects must be potentially guilty of violations of the law.

  101. raven says

    Has anyone done any research into where the publishers of North Star get their money?All that printing
    does not come free. What exactly is their tax status? Are they a non-profit? Are they all volunteer or do
    some people get paid? All interesting questions.

    About Northstar in particular, I don’t know or much care. Most likely they are funded by the proverbial outside agitators.

    In general there are rightwing groups that specifically fund these campus propaganda rags. You can find them easily on Google.

    The rightwing has huge amounts of money to toss around. Diluted by the fact that much of it is wasted on scammers and moochers. This was even a cover story on Time magazine a few weeks ago.

  102. woozy says

    @106 carolinebourdin

    1) they don’t understand that the first amendment applies to government behavior (they never do)

    I don’t want to put words in your mouth so could you explain what you mean by this?

    It sounds like you mean that the 1st amendment means that only government is not legally allowed to censor people but non-government people are legally allowed to censor all the want. This may or may not be technically true. (I don’t know enough about law.) But I’m personally very reluctant to embrace such an argument even if it is true. I actually *do* very much believe in free speech both in letter and in spirit and I will defend to the death the North Star’s right to publish whatever shit they want. So a “loophole” argument to the 1st amendment seems weaselly and something we should avoid even if it is technically valid.

    What is, in my opinion, appalling about this Fox whining is that calling the North Star out for its disgusting tactics and saying “the North Star has worn out its welcome and must go; Treat their scattered papers as hate-filled trash and dispose of it appropriately” can not in any way shape or form possibly construed as advocating censorship. It’s merely a statement that the North Star is hate-filled trashed and should be reviled. That is *not* in any spirit or letter censorship. It is simply speech (and again, I’ll defend that speech to the death too, and honestly feel better about doing so, but that’s immaterial.) To stretch it as a “incitement to commit crime” is a preposterous stretch. To even consider it as an incitement of crime *is* an appalling act of censorship and violation of free speech.

    On an off-topic (off because it is not in any way reflective of anything that actually happened), even advocating censorship is protected free speech. After all, every-one is entitled to the opinion that the other opinion should be silenced and the have every right to say so. They just have no right whatsoever to act on it. And they should have every expectation that such an attitude will be called out and not tolerated. … And, oh yeah, having speech tolerated is not a right. The speech itself is, but the reaction to it, not at all.

  103. ck says

    woozy wrote:

    It sounds like you mean that the 1st amendment means that only government is not legally allowed to censor people but non-government people are legally allowed to censor all the want. This may or may not be technically true.

    It is technically true. People have been fired for speech done on their own time and on their own dime. Private businesses are not required to carry speech that they object to (barring certain exemptions like “common carrier” laws). And so on.

    What caroline probably meant was the “free speech” versus “Freeze Peach” thing. Free speech simply means you cannot be censored by the government (and most people would like to say business has no business censoring either, but the law doesn’t work that way). Freeze peach is the imaginary right not to be criticised publically, and the imaginary right to use other people’s platforms for your own speech.

  104. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    28.(Kirkpatrick): “Myers: ‘I drink your tears. ‘
    That’s how Charles Ng felt, I expect.

    33. (Chigau): “Charles Ng? Where the fuck did that come from?
    36. (Myers): “We asian serial-killers all look alike.
    Not(“felt”=”look”). Myers resorts to obvious mis-interpretation to avoid the point, apparently.
    He exults in the pain he has caused (“I drink your tears”). That’s the Ng connection.

    In __The Road to Wigan Pier__ Orwell speculated that socialism may express a hypertrophied sense of order, like those people who must wash their hands for two minutes and thirty seconds, every hour on the hour from 0600 to 2100 or those people who rearrange the socks in the underwear drawer twenty times a day. Elsewhere (e.g., “Raffles and Mrs. Blandish”, “Inside the Whale”) Orwell suggests that a preference for authoritarian politics expresses vicarious sadism. Mises (__Socialism__) suggested that socialism originates in a primitive revenge fantasy. Perhaps it’s a hangover from a time when the successful hunter got disproportionate access to females and the most attractive females got disproportionate access to successful males. You enhance your odds of reproducing if you (a male) sabotage Bill Gates of T. J. Rogers, or if you mess up Tom Cruise or (a female) Aishwarya Rai or Nicole Kidman.

  105. lorn says

    Reading all those, burdensome as it was, was instructive. Certain thoughts and turns of phrase, such as the references to excreta, show up repeatedly. I suspect that there are far fewer people writing than the number of posts. I’ve seen that quite a bit from the right wing. They, evidently, have a great need to be seen as one of many. As opposed to the reality of being a overly vocal minority.

  106. chigau (違う) says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick #119
    Ah.
    Yes.
    Perfectly clear now.
    You are a fucking idiot.

  107. ck says

    Perhaps it’s a hangover from a time when the successful hunter got disproportionate access…blah…blah…blah…

    Oh, look. A self-serving evo-psych just-so story.

  108. The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge says

    Kirkpatrick:

    Everyone has two choices. You can be a Socialist or a Sociopath. Obviously you’ve made your choice.

  109. says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick:

    He exults in the pain he has caused (“I drink your tears”). That’s the Ng connection

    Pain? What pain do you think PZ caused? Assuming he *did* cause any pain, in what way would that be similar to what Charles Ng did to his victims?

    From the link you provided in your original asinine comment:

    Charles Chi-Tat Ng (Chinese: 吳志達/吴志达 (Cantonese pronunciation: [ŋ̩̏ tsītàt̚]); Pinyin: Wú Zhìdá; born December 24, 1960) is a Hong Kong-American serial killer. He is believed to have raped, tortured and murdered between 11 and 25 victims with his accomplice Leonard Lake at Lake’s ranch in Calaveras County, California.

    Charles Ng raped, tortured and murdered people.
    PZ Myers has NOT raped, tortured, or murdered anyone. He mocked and condemned racist assholes.

    Why are you being a sleazeball by attempting to draw a comparison between the two?

     

    As for the rest of your comment @28:

    Freethought blog or thoughtfree blog?

    You can look up Charles Ng on Wikipedia, but you’re incapable of looking up the definition of freethought?

    Freethought or free thought is a philosophical viewpoint which holds that positions regarding truth should be formed on the basis of logic, reason, and empiricism, rather than authority, tradition, or other dogmas.[1][2][3] The cognitive application of freethought is known as “freethinking”, and practitioners of freethought are known as “freethinkers”

    Whatever you thought (I use the term loosely in your case) the definition of ‘freethought’ was, you were wrong.

    Atheists define themselves by their opposition.

    Ah, you’re a sleazeball psychic.
    You don’t know the first thing about how I (or anyone else here) defines themselves. Hint: it’s not “by my opposition”.
    You suck at mindreading you fucking fool.

    That’s a mistake.

    Since you don’t know how anyone defines themselves, there is no mistake made fool.

    “Materialist” neutrally describes the materialist worldview.

    I still can’t figure out what your fucking point was here.
    I can’t say I really care either, given your contribution to this thread thus far.

  110. says

    Geez, I really have to up my game on my blog. I wanna have my inbox filled with hate mail from the ignorant as well. Why should PZ have all the “fun?”

    This Kirkpatrick bloke looks like he’s about as fun as Jeanne Kirkpatrick. Probably holds similar attitudes.

  111. The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge says

    It’s very telling that Kirkpatrick’s example of a serial killer was Charles Ng. (I’m surprised it wasn’t Wayne Williams.) I wonder how long he had to scrabble around to find one that wasn’t lily-white American. Ted Bundy? Gary Ridgeway? John Wayne Gacy? Never heard of them! Hey Malcolm! You could have gone with Andrei Chikatilo! He was wunna them Commies!

  112. Nick Gotts says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick@119,

    Your ignorance is evidently unbounded. Orwell was a democratic socialist, and remained so to the end of his life. Von Mises’s fuckwitted speculations and your relaying of them as though they were of any significance deserve nothing but derision – this was a man, after all, who explicitly repudiated the use of empirical evidence in economics, believing he could derive everything from unevidenced first principles (i.e., pull it out of his arse).

  113. raven says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick:

    Orwell suggests that a preference for authoritarian politics expresses vicarious sadism.

    You mean like this?

    3 killed in shootings at Kansas City-area Jewish centers …
    Www. cnn. com/2014/04/13/us/kansas-jewish-center-shooting/

    3 days ago – Authorities are investigating whether the shootings were a hate crime, Overland Park Police Chief John Douglass told reporters. “It’s too early in …

    Three people were murdered by a homicidal chistofascist racist bigot. Ironically all white xians because while he was full of hate, he wasn’t very competent.

    Rightwing nuts going on shooting sprees like this often. You can bet a lot of people are crying for the loved ones gunned down for no reason that makes sense to normal people.

    Orwell suggests that a preference for authoritarian politics expresses vicarious sadism.

    Can’t get any more authoritarian than the christofascists of the Tea Party. Orwell would despise you. It’s all there, sadism for the poor, nonwhite, women, gays, anyone who isn’t a warped, angry old white male. Thoughtcrimes, Doublespeak, Newspeak.

  114. raven says

    It’s very telling that Kirkpatrick’s example of a serial killer was Charles Ng. (I’m surprised it wasn’t Wayne Williams.) I wonder how long he had to scrabble around to find one that wasn’t lily-white American.

    And how far back he had to go. That was decades ago.

    BTW, there were two of them. Ng’s partner was white.

  115. Nick Gotts says

    Perhaps it’s a hangover from a time when the successful hunter got disproportionate access to females – Malcolm Kirkpatrick

    Incidentally, empirical study indicates that existing and recent forager societies are usually highly egalitarian, with resources including the meat of hunted animals being shared according to well-defined conventions, and the degree of polygyny (hence, differences in men’s reproductive rates due to “access to females” – note the pseudo-scientific terminology) being low, certainly in comparison to later agricultural societies, where elite men frequently “owned” multiple women. Of course, one must be cautious in extrapolating from modern forager societies to the Pleistocene, but what evidence there is points in the opposite direction to the one you and your fellow glibertarians would like. But then, you clearly follow von Mises* in your contempt for empiricism.

    * I’m amused that you omit his “von”, which of course gives a clue to his highly privileged social origins.

  116. raven says

    I put Malcolm Kirkpatrick conservative racist in Google and got a few hits. He has been around the web.

    Quote from blackconservativewoman blog: Edited for length.

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick said…

    The government of a locality is the largest dealer in interpersonal violence in that locality (definition). Every law on the books is a threat by the State to kidnap
    delete

    Nowadays, in the US, “liberal” means “socialist”.

    Here Malcolm just copies and pastes himself as we saw above.
    In __The Road to Wigan Pier__, George Orwell speculated that a socialist orientation may express a hypertrophied sense of order, a compulsion akin to obsessive handwashing or folding the towels in the linen closet 15 times a day. Elsewhere (e.g., “Raffles and Mrs. Blandish”, “Inside the Whale”),
    Orwell suggests that a preference for authoritarian politics indicates vicarious sadism. In “Socialism”, Ludwig Von Mises suggests that socialism expresses a revenge fantasy.

    The tools available to State actors are violence and threats of violence.
    delete
    You cannot enjoy the fantasy of punishing the exploiters, the price-gougers and the money-lenders unless the State has authority to enforce minimum wage laws, price controls, and rent control laws. Liberals (socialists) buy this ticket when they vote.

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick is just a Loonytarian posting lies and gibberish. An Ayn Rand fanboy. He calls Obama et al. a socialist. In realityland, he is what used to be called a moderate Republican. Enough said.

  117. playonwords says

    MYERS!!!!111! DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TRU AMERACANS YOU WILL HAVE KILLED BY MAKING THERE BLOOD BOIL AND THERE BRIANS 2 BURST???

    u R THE HIGH PRIEST OF aTHEISM AND NOTHING COULD BE LOWER.

    Signe A Friend

  118. says

    Well, to be fair, Marcuse and Gramsci and Machiavelli and Orwell aren’t exactly obscure figures forgotten by history.

    The real question is : do they really deserve to be used as name-dropping fodder by some self-proclaimed intellectual ?

    I think they deserve better than that…

  119. raven says

    Kirkpatrick from the same source as above and edited for length because this guy babbles a lot.

    What you call “the public school system” is a set of policies which features:
    1) Compulsory attendance (truancy) statutes applied to minors.
    2) Compulsory attendance (educational neglect) statutes applied to parents.
    3) Compulsory tax financing of schools.
    4) Laws (in many US States) and district policies (in others) which restrict parents’ options for the use of the taxpayers’ age 6-18 education subsidy to schools operated by State (that is, government) employees.
    5) State (that is, government) ownership of school facilities.
    6) A State or District mandated curriculum.
    7) In many States, mandated collective bargaining for government-school employees.

    In addition, this system features

    8) Minimum wage laws and child labor laws which reduce opportunities for on-the-job training.

    delete.

    But then, the socialists could not enjoy their fantasy of prescribing the curriculum for other people’s children.

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick hates public education, the US state, paying taxes, child labor laws, minimum wage laws, and most of our modern civilization.

    Routine Gibbertarian crackpot.

    Hey Malcolm, if you hate modern, western democracies so much, why don’t you just leave? Walk your talk. Go Galt Gulch.

    You can opt out of our civilization any time and some do. Free country and all that. It’s called going Galt Gulch. Of course, like Chris McCandless they usually end up dead and rather quickly. But it is your choice.

  120. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    @30…that’s the philosophy professor. He is much buffer than PZ. All philosophy professors lift.

    Nah, philosophy professors spend all their time in their armchairs.

    It’s aerodynamics professors who lift. :P

  121. Holms says

    The last of the letters in the OP tickled my fancy:

    A different view point

    Has any conservative ever provided a view point that was contrary to yours yet remained valid in your eyes? If yes, how far off was it? If no, what made yours the most valid? Must students always agree with your viewpoint or do you encourage them to do the research, and reach their own conclusion?

    Did this guy do his own reasearch on this issue by …reading PZ’s original post? Hypocrisy highlighted.

  122. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    I was having a conversation with someone about it the other day, and they kept saying “you don’t know what goes through someones head right before they die”

    The forensics specialists usually do. :P

  123. raven says

    Cthulhu, Malcolm Kirkpatrick is a dumb crackpot. I can’t resist. My comments are in bold.

    What you call “the public school system” is a set of policies which features:
    1) Compulsory attendance (truancy) statutes applied to minors.
    Not true de facto. These laws are not enforced or enforceable

    2) Compulsory attendance (educational neglect) statutes applied to parents.
    De facto not enforced. But they should be. We live in a complicated civilization. Not educating your children sets them up for failure. It’s child abuse.
    Kirkpatrick is assuming parents own their children. They don’t. They are citizens albeit not with all the rights of adults.

    3) Compulsory tax financing of schools.
    True. So what? The USA with public education became the world’s largest economy and the last superpower. Public education works. You can find countries with low levels of literacy. They are poverty stricken third world countries.

    4) Laws (in many US States) and district policies (in others) which restrict parents’ options for the use of the taxpayers’ age 6-18 education subsidy to schools operated by State (that is, government) employees.
    Same as above. You can send your kids to private schools or homeschool them if you want. But we can’t afford a nation of illiterates.

    5) State (that is, government) ownership of school facilities.
    So what. It works well and is done everywhere.

    6) A State or District mandated curriculum.
    Chosen indirectly by the citizens. This is a democracy you know

    7) In many States, mandated collective bargaining for government-school employees.
    Yeah we get it. You hate unions because people use their Libertarian free will to organize and negotiate contracts. Freedom only applies to ultra-rich white guys.

  124. Kees says

    PZ should do one of these videos like Dawkins did where he sits in a comfy chair in front of a fireplace and reads his hatemail.

  125. rorschach says

    Who is Smoggy?

    Pffft. Newbies! Sadly he got tired of his persona at some point….

  126. dongiovanni (Now onto Wagner) says

    Whenever I see the phrase von Mises I think of his younger brother Richard and it takes me a while to process that the guy they’re referring to is the one with no redeeming features. Sorry about the off – topic post – I just felt like mentioning it for some reason.

  127. curbyrdogma says

    I predict an uptick in orthopedic surgery on knee joints, as these folks most assuredly jerked theirs a bit too violently.

  128. sugarfrosted says

    @101

    A pair of ‘elders’ were kind enough to pay me a visit this morning. During our conversation, I mentioned that Joseph Smith was a convicted con man who was ‘encouraged’ to move west from New York State by unfriendly former associates. One elder offered that Smith never moved west.

    I could give this the benefit of the doubt. Colloquially “move west” has a less literal meaning, “move to the western United States or the wild west” They might have interpret “move west”in that way. Unless they responded “No Missouri isn’t west of New York,” you’re grasping at straws.

  129. birgerjohansson says

    Tthere was this hit “Go West” in the seventies…. maybe those elders thought you meant Smith was into leather?

  130. Kevin Kehres says

    @142….Oh yeah? Well…you know who ELSE has compulsory education? Red China!!! Checkmate, atheists!

    /snark

    BTW: The use of the term “Red China” is what is known in poker circles as a “tell”. Person writing said term is no younger than 60, probably in zir 70s or older.

  131. Lee1 says

    I GUARANTEE YOU PUTIN WOULD NOT BE DOING WHAT HE IS DOING IF WE HAD A REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT WHO IS NOT AFRAID OF HIS OWN FUCKIN SHADOW

    This reminded me of a Roger Waters song called Me or Him in which he plays clip from a radio talk show host (I’m not actually sure if it’s real or not – I’m guessing it is) who says “Do you really think Iranian terrorists would have taken Americans hostage if Ronald Reagan were president? Do you really think the Russians would have invaded Afghanistan if Ronald Reagan were president? Do you really think third-rate military dictators would laugh at America and burn our flag in contempt if Ronald Reagan were president?”

    (Here’s the song for those interested; the talk show guy starts at about 4:15. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoVLbNs4cYU)

  132. militantagnostic says

    @Raven

    BTW, there were two of them. Ng’s partner was white.

    If I recall correctly, Lake was the leader of the two. The case received extensive coverage here as Ng was caught in Calgary by a store security guard while shoplifting. Ng had a sister in Calgary.

  133. crocodoc says

    It’s always the same strategy, again and again and again and again…

    Preach intolerance, and when you get criticized, complain about the lack of tolerance for your views. Preach free speech and threaten and tell to shut up everyone who dares to ask if there may be limits. Preach hate, then accuse anyone of hate speech who would rather try to get along with those that you hate. Never forget to insist you have a right to defend yourself. And, of course, call anyone a racist who insults your beautiful white skin by saying you’re not superior, not even to a nigger. Because anti-racist is just a code word for anti-white. Mourn the decay of a society that does not even allow to shoot anyone in the face who calls white kids names.

  134. woozy says

    I could give this the benefit of the doubt. Colloquially “move west” has a less literal meaning, “move to the western United States or the wild west” They might have interpret “move west”in that way. They might have interpret “move west”in that way. Unless they responded “No Missouri isn’t west of New York,” you’re grasping at straws.

    Um…..

    admittedly moving to Pennsylvania or New Jersey would not be “moving west” but you are aware that Missouri was well into the frontier and very much part of the western United States, don’t you?

  135. Menyambal says

    I grew up in Missouri, and really didn’t think of it as being in The West. But it certainly was at one time the frontier, as most places were, and I now say it qualifies as Western by many standards.

    The Gateway arch was set up in St. Louis, which is in eastern Missouri, as the symbol of the western advancement. Lewis and Clark started from St. Louis. The Missouri River drains much of the Wild West. The country could be divided along the Mississippi River, and Missouri is on the western side. The first Wild West pistol duel took place in Springfield, featuring Wild Bill Hickok. The Oregon and Santa Fe trails started in Westport. Baldknobbers. The James Gang. Laura Ingalls Wilder. Daniel Boone.

    And yeah, when the Mormons lived here, it was the west.

  136. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    (Kirkpatrick): “Atheists define themselves by their opposition.
    124 (Tony): “Ah, you’re a sleazeball psychic.
    You don’t know the first thing about how I (or anyone else here) defines themselves. Hint: it’s not “by my opposition”.You suck at mindreading you fucking fool.

    I know this much: (1) Tony has a foul mouth AND (2) “atheist” means “a-” (prefix meaning “not”) + “theist” (root, meaning “one who holds the doctrine of theism” according to my Shorter Oxford English Dictionary.) Merriam Webster Online defines “theism” as “the belief in the existence of a god or gods”.
    Consider all the things in which you don’t believe: ghosts, intelligent extraterrestrials visiting Earth in lying saucers, the Loch Ness monster, telekinesis, telepathy, etc. Do you call yourself an “a-Loch Ness Monster-ist”? I don’t. Why call yourself an “a-theist”? As I said: atheists define themselves by their opposition. That is a mistake. A neutral term for the materialist world view is “maerialist”.

    Thanks for exhibiting so openly your interpersonal style.

  137. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    As I said: atheists define themselves by their opposition. That is a mistake. A neutral term for the materialist world view is “maerialist”.

    We don’t oppose gods, we ignore them. And also dictionary pedants. Suggest all you want, but nobody has to agree with you.

  138. Rich Woods says

    @playonwords #136:

    MYERS!!!!111! DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TRU AMERACANS YOU WILL HAVE KILLED BY MAKING THERE BLOOD BOIL AND THERE BRIANS 2 BURST???

    Wrong, wrong wrong. It’s “MEYERS!!!!!111!”

  139. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    (Raven, 135): “I put Malcolm Kirkpatrick conservative racist in Google and got a few hits. He has been around the web.
    I just put ” ‘Obama’, ‘flying spaghetti monster’ ” into google and got (it said) 252,000 hits. Therefore…

  140. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    (Nerd): “We don’t oppose gods, we ignore them.

    But you don’t. It’s right there in the word “a-theist’.

  141. Rich Woods says

    @Malcolm Kirkpatrick #154:

    A neutral term for the materialist world view is “maerialist”.

    Not so neutral: materialist has two meanings. Another dictionary pedant would come along and claim that “atheists” are only interested in material gains.

    atheists define themselves by their opposition

    Completely wrong. Atheism is the null hypothesis.

  142. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    But you don’t. It’s right there in the word “a-theist’.

    Only in your pedant pointed mind. Gods don’t exist, ergo there is nothing to oppose. Other than your pedantry…..

  143. Al Dente says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick,

    When several atheists tell you that you’re mistaken and no atheists agree with your assumption about atheists, there’s an extremely good likelihood that your assumption is full of shit. And please, don’t whine about me telling you you’re full of shit. If you don’t like to be told you’re full of shit, then there’s a simple fix, don’t make statements that make it obvious you’re full of shit.

  144. raven says

    As I said: atheists define themselves by their opposition. That is a mistake. A neutral term for the materialist world view is “maerialist”.

    Repeating himself. Malcolm Kirkpatrick isn’t too bright.

    (Raven, 135): “I put Malcolm Kirkpatrick conservative racist in Google and got a few hits. He has been around the web.”

    I just put ” ‘Obama’, ‘flying spaghetti monster’ ” into google and got (it said) 252,000 hits. Therefore…

    Trivial. Evading and ignoring the points I made. Clearly Kirkpatrick has run out of thoughts. Didn’t take long.

    This one is a not very bright troll. Have fun but this is too boring for me.

    Loonytarians are boring. They are Ayndroids, meat robots who say the same things over and over and over….

  145. Rich Woods says

    @raven #162:

    They are Ayndroids, meat robots who say the same things over and over and over….

    How else are they going to believe they’ve reached a state of libertarian Nirvana?

    Oops, sorry, I think I meant bought the state of libertarian Nirvana.

  146. Rich Woods says

    Oops, sorry, I think I meant bought the state of libertarian Nirvana.

    For their exclusive use, naturally.

  147. says

    Consider all the things in which you don’t believe: ghosts, intelligent extraterrestrials visiting Earth in lying saucers, the Loch Ness monster

    Hey! I’ve never heard of lying saucers… Are they the ones pretending they came to visit Earth?

  148. Kichae says

    Rich Woods @163

    I meant bought the state of libertarian Nirvana.

    If that’s anything like the state of libertarian Nevada, they can keep it.

    (With apologies to all the non-libertarian Nevadians out there.)

  149. Menyambal says

    Malcom Kirkpatrick, I only identify myself as an atheist when I am trying to tell religious people that I am not one of them. I never think of myself as a materialist, and wouldn’t like that term if it meant that I couldn’t believe in dark energy.

    You seem to think that “atheist” means “antitheist”. Well, I think you are wrong, and I will say that I am an atheist long enough to drive that point home.

    And really, people like you have made me anti-theist, not in the sense of being against gods, but in the sense of being opposed to theism.

  150. says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick:
    Oh I see.
    You are a Psychic Sleazeball Tone Troll.
    Diddums have hurt fee fee bc I used naughty words?
    There there.

    If you had not expressed your vile opinion, I would not have responded in the manner that I did. But you did and you deserve the invective you pissant.

  151. heliobates says

    I just put ” ‘Obama’, ‘flying spaghetti monster’ ” into google and got (it said) 252,000 hits. Therefore…

    An absolutely devastating non-sequitor. Truly you’ve rolled up the a-theists’ left flank and have completely routed them while they were busy defining themselves by their opposition.

  152. Al Dente says

    I’ve just put several combinations of Malcolm Kirkpatrick + something into google and got the following results:

    * Malcolm Kirkpatrick fuckwad -104,000

    * Malcolm Kirkpatrick dumbass – 199,000

    * Malcolm Kirkpatrick full of shit – 1,400,000

    * Malcolm Kirkpatrick dumb as a box of rocks – 1,880,000

    Google certainly knows about Malcolm Kirkpatrick.

  153. vaiyt says

    A neutral term for the materialist world view is “maerialist”.

    Cool, but materialism is not atheism, and using the same word for both does neither any favors.

  154. vaiyt says

    What you call “the public school system” is a set of policies which features:
    1) Compulsory attendance (truancy) statutes applied to minors.
    2) Compulsory attendance (educational neglect) statutes applied to parents.
    3) Compulsory tax financing of schools.
    4) Laws (in many US States) and district policies (in others) which restrict parents’ options for the use of the taxpayers’ age 6-18 education subsidy to schools operated by State (that is, government) employees.
    5) State (that is, government) ownership of school facilities.
    6) A State or District mandated curriculum.
    7) In many States, mandated collective bargaining for government-school employees.

    In addition, this system features

    8) Minimum wage laws and child labor laws which reduce opportunities for on-the-job training.

    And this is bad how?

  155. says

    Minimum wage laws and child labor laws which reduce opportunities for on-the-job training.

    Oh that is some wonderful historical revisionism there

  156. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Oh that is some wonderful historical revisionism there

    What do you expect from a liberturd??? They don’t understand history…

  157. woozy says

    sophomoric semantics.

    Words do not dictate concepts.

    You remind me of the argumentative vegetarians I knew in college who would argue: “You are not a vegetarian if you eat eggs or dairy. You are at best just an ovo-lacto-vegetarian. As ovo-lacto-vegetarianism is just a conditional exception to vegetarianism as a whole, it is not valid practice in its own right. By definition, you are simply being hypocritical, non-committed and effectiveless.”

    This is bullshit not because of any actual bearing to vegetarianism or to any other subject under discussion but because words and definitions do *not* dictate concepts. A diet which includes dairy and eggs but not the meat of animals is a valid self-expressed concept, regardless of any vocabulary or lack thereof. Vocabulary and etymology has nothing to do with the condition of any actual concepts.

    Atheism is not defined by what it excludes. It is a world-view that does not involve gods or religion. Theism is a world-view that sticks in a god on top of it. Both are simple basic concepts. Neither is dictated by it’s etymology or definitions to be “defined” by what it is not or what it is a modification from. Even though both can be argued semantically to be so.

  158. David Marjanović says

    First rule of totalitarian leadership: Those you rule must never know if any particular act runs afoul of the law or not, and all subjects must be potentially guilty of violations of the law.

    Joke from Nazi times: The legal system is to be simplified.
    1) Whoever does anything or fails to do anything is punished.
    2) The punishment follows the Healthy Feeling of the People™.
    3) The Healthy Feeling of the People™ is set by the governor.

    Perhaps it’s a hangover from a time when the successful hunter got disproportionate access to females and the most attractive females got disproportionate access to successful males.

    To entertain this hypothesis you first need to show that there ever was such a time. At first glance it looks pretty obvious that there was, but at second glance it just shows you’re not familiar with the social lives of chimpanzees, bonobos, orang-utans or even gorillas.

  159. raven says

    but at second glance it just shows you’re not familiar with the social lives of chimpanzees, bonobos, orang-utans or even gorillas.

    Left one out!!!

    …but at second glance it just shows you’re not familiar with the social lives of chimpanzees, bonobos, orang-utans, gorillas, or humans.

    MK doesn’t seem too connected to the rest of us. Or reality.

  160. Amphiox says

    (Nerd): “We don’t oppose gods, we ignore them. ”

    But you don’t. It’s right there in the word “a-theist’.

    The word is “a-theist,” NOT “anti-theist”.

    Sheesh.

    If you’re going to commit to the etymological fallacy, at least try to do it properly….

  161. vaiyt says

    First rule of totalitarian leadership: Those you rule must never know if any particular act runs afoul of the law or not, and all subjects must be potentially guilty of violations of the law.

    That also helps spot laws made on the totalitarian spirit; too broad to be effectively enforced, they’re meant to hang a threat over the targeted group so most or all members may be treated as criminals at any time.

  162. The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge says

    Some of the law codes I’ve seen are ridiculously fine-grained. They achieve obscurity because nobody is going to read all of them. How many people living in Spokane years ago knew it was illegal to hang men’s and women’s underwear on the same clothesline?

  163. Menyambal says

    Heh. Laws.

    I once was the only person who knew it was illegal to ride a bicycle down one side of one block of one street in downtown Muskegon, Michigan, and also the only person with the info for figuring out why. That stretch of street used to be where the city busses had their central transfer station, long ago, and the law was still on the books. I had worked for the bus company, and had seen their old map, and I was working on a bicycle-commuting project, so I had the knowing.

    I also noticed that most of the laws in that town, especially the older ones, were restrictive and conservative. There were laws AGAINST miscegenation, cohabiting and sodomy, but no laws compelling anyone to live with a same-gender, different-race lover. I suppose the laws forcing people to allow other races to eat in the same restaurants may have seemed like compulsion, but at the time I just thought you could eat at home if you wanted.

    So these conservatives going up in flames because they think PZ did something like what they do, is just silly. (I watched a few minutes of The Passion of the Christ, tonight, and amidst at the torture porn, I kept thinking that God was finally getting a taste of the shit humans endure.)

  164. says


    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge

    How many people living in Spokane years ago knew it was illegal to hang men’s and women’s underwear on the same clothesline?

    At the time, all of them I don’t doubt. That one has all the hallmarks of a good old fashioned American moral panic. I also suspect that within 10 years after its passing, 95% of the people who’d clamored for it had totally forgotten about it.

  165. David Marjanović says

    Damn those conservatives..

    http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/2014/04/16/118016

    See, that one’s actually quite telling: the cartoonist, and you, haven’t thought it through.

    What does limited government mean in practice? What is the point of having a government in the first place? What does fiscal responsibility mean in practice? What do people say when they fear for their secure national borders, and what do they do once they have the political power to do something about it?

  166. Alex the Pretty Good says

    @ Malcolm Kirkpatrick, 154

    If somebody approaches me on the street and asks for a light, I tell them “Sorry, I’m a non-smorker.” does that mean “I define myself by my opposition to smoking”?
    If my uncle is offered a beer, he’ll tell you “I’m a tee-totaller” does that mean “he defines himself by his opposition to alcohol”?

    Declaring yourself to be non-X doesn’t automatically mean that you’re anti-X. And it certainly doesn’t mean that you “define yourself” by your “anti-X-ism”.

    The only reason most people call themselves atheist and need to repeat it so often is because we are constantly confronted by obnoxious theism that’s blatantly in our faces and tries to force us to live according to theist norms we don’t give a flying fuck about.

    It took the government in the country where I live (Belgium) ages to come to the agreement that I have the right to say when MY life isn’t worth living anymore in MY eyes (i.e. legalise euthanasia) … and knowing that cancer and Alzheimer’s are common in my family, you can be damn sure I drafted a euthanasia declaration the moment it was possible. And still the Holier-Than-Thou Party (Christian “Democrats”) have been obstructing that law every step on the way, constantly being egged on by the Asshole-in-Chief, Arch Bisshop Leonard.

    So yeah, I will say “I am an atheist … I don’t give a fuck about your alledged god’s rules.” every time a religionist thinks they know better than I do. And you can be damn sure that if UFO-believers were to become as obnoxious (and influential) as theists are, it wouldn’t take long for people to clearly describe themselves as “a-UFOists”.

  167. anteprepro says

    Damn those conservatives..

    http://townhall.com/political-cartoons/2014/04/16/118016

    You see, that one actually is funny! The belief that conservatives ONLY believe in limited government! And are consistent in the desire to see limits imposed! Laugh Fucking Riot.

    Look at what conservatives actually want. Why is it that limited government increasing its influence regarding marriage, making sure gay people can’t get in? Why is that limited government siphoning in and spending tons of funds to wage needless wars? Why is the limited government trying to spew out regulations about what women can do with their bodies? Why is the limited government waging a war on drugs? Why is the limited government imprisoning the largest number of people in the world? Why is this non-racist limited government disproportionately imprisoning minorities?

    Do you fucking believe that conservatives ONLY position is limited government and keeping America “safe”? Because if you do, you are the kind of useful idiot that the Republican party thrives on. Good fucking work, Sherlock.

  168. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says


    (Raven, 135): “I put Malcolm Kirkpatrick conservative racist in Google and got a few hits. He has been around the web.”

    (Malcolm): “I just put ” ‘Obama’, ‘flying spaghetti monster’ ” into google and got (it said) 252,000 hits. Therefore…”

    (Raven, 162) Trivial. Evading and ignoring the points I made.”
    Raven ignored the point I made. That Google returns #X hits on a search for a ” ‘Y’, ‘Z’ ” combination indicates nothing about a connection between Y and Z. Consider “Obama, Flying Spaghetti Monster” (252,000 returns).

    You could get similar results with a search “Al Dente, Z”, where Z is any of the terms “Al Dente” used in his searches (comment 170).

    It’s called validation of the measurement. It doesn’t mean much when electrodes attached to plants react when people scream abuse at the plants (as reported) if electrodes attached to Styrofoam balls also react when people scream at the Styrofoam ball (as later reported, by other experimenters).

  169. Menyambal says

    Malcom Kirkpatrick, that is what you choose to respond to? You pick up on some trivial aspect of what you consider an error, and twist it into a lecture from your smugness. Meanwhile, the raucous laughter at the foundations of conservatism, and so much else you could be addressing, gets nothing from you.

    I know some other folks who act the way that you do. One is 16, the other one got fired.

  170. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    It’s called validation of the measurement.

    Non-sequitur. Either make your point, or go away. At the moment, you don’t have a cogent point, just bullshit.

  171. kayden says

    P.Z.

    Good for you for standing up for the minority students at your University. Have any of the young a**holes tried to explain their anti-Black racism that fills their rag? Seems like they are flinging poo to obscure how racist they are.

    And yes, Wingut tears are delicious. Hopefully, we’ll taste them in November 2014 and November 2016. They’re already flowing given the success of the ACA.

  172. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    Off topic, but Vaiyt asked a civil question.
    (Vaiyt,173): “And this is bad how?
    In abstract, the education industry is an unlikely candidate for State (government, generally) operation.
    Numerous lines of evidence support the following generalizations:
    1) As institutions take from individual parents the power to determine for their own children the choice of curriculum and the pace and method of instruction, overall system performance falls, and
    2) Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents (“Well, duh!” as my students would say).

    I recommend:…
    Lieberman, __Privatization and Educational Choice__ (St. Martin’s Press, 1989)
    Chubb and Moe, __Politics, Markets, and America’s Schools__ (Brookings, 1990).
    West, E.G., “Education Vouchers in Principle and Practice, a Survey”, (The World Bank __Research Observer__ , Feb. 1997)
    Coulson, __Market Education, The Unknown History__ (Transaction Publishers, 1999)
    Steuerle, Ooms, Peterson, Reischauer (eds), __Vouchers and the Provision of Public Services__ (Brookings, 2000)
    Enlow and Ealy (eds), __Liberty and Learning: Milton Friedman’s Voucher Idea at Fifty__ (Cato Institute, 2006)
    Tooley, __The Beautiful Tree__ (Cato Institute, 2009)
    I have read all of the above, with the exception of Coulson (I’m half way through that).

  173. chigau (違う) says

    vaiyt
    You’re slipping ;)
    Malcolm Kirkpatrick thinks you were being civil.

  174. Al Dente says

    I see a libertarian has come to tell the atheists all about the joys of the corporate feudalism he wants installed throughout the world.

    Tell me, Malcolm, why is it that libertarians are so held in contempt by normal people? Is it your rabid distrust of society? Is it your narcissistic self-absorption? Is it your innate selfishness? Or is it some other characteristic which makes the rest of us regard you with the same attitude we take to a rotting, maggot infested, dead dog?

  175. says

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge @ 183:

    Some of the law codes I’ve seen are ridiculously fine-grained. They achieve obscurity because nobody is going to read all of them.

    In ND, some of the laws still on the books:

    It’s legal to shoot an Indian who is on horseback provided you are in a covered wagon.*

    Beer and pretzels cannot be served at the same time in any bar or restaurant.

    It is against the law to go to bed wearing boots or shoes.

    Women are not allowed to wear tweed underwear on their wedding night.
     
    In SD, there are two old laws about killing Indians:

    If there are more than 5 Indians on your property you may shoot them.

    If three or more Indians are walking down the street together, they can be considered a war party and fired upon. (Town of Spearfish only.)

  176. The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge says

    Inaji:

    Wow, that’s really…special. I guess you’d better hope none of those Indians you shot at were really Italian, like Iron Eyes Cody. Then you could be in real trouble!

  177. says

    So, does anyone think that if Kirkpatrick and his buddies got their way, and education was entirely privatised, that education vouchers would last more than 5 minutes? After all to libertarians taxes are an “initiation of force,” so taking their precious money and giving it to other people, even for an inarguable societal good(and I’m sure you can find some libertarians who argue that not everyone needs to read and write etc.) isn’t acceptable.

  178. says

    The Very Reverend Battleaxe of Knowledge:

    I guess you’d better hope none of those Indians you shot at were really Italian, like Iron Eyes Cody.

    I don’t think that would be a problem around here, given all the reservations. This is Indian country. It says a lot, those laws still being on the books.

  179. anteprepro says

    I notice that Malcolm’s newly revealed voucher fetish doesn’t actually address the points vaiyt was addressing:

    Compulsory attendance, taxes financing education, unions, state curricula, minimum wages, and child labor laws.

    Malcolm couldn’t be arsed to show how his utopian alternative fixes these Horrible Horrible Things, but rest assured, they are still Horrible Horrible Things.

    So yeah: Gibbertarian.

  180. anteprepro says

    Inaji:

    This is Indian country. It says a lot, those laws still being on the books.

    Jesus fuck, it sure does. Anyone would the slightest sense of decency and with a half-way functioning brain would notice that shit and want it removed from the laws ASAP. I mean, for fuck’s sake, they are letting murder be legal through sheer apathetic negligence. Every fucking legislator who had an opportunity to change one of those laws yet did nothing deserves the fucking boot. What the fuck is wrong with this country?

  181. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Yawn, no way the liberturdian theology works in the real world. Every time it has been tried, it has been abandoned for solid reasons….

  182. says

    Tony! I just now made it through the thread and saw your question, but I see Chigau beat me to the explanation.

    To be honest, I’d forgotten that it had been long enough since Smoggy has posted in character for us to have regulars who don’t remember him.

  183. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    (Al Dente, 197): “I see a libertarian …

    I’m neither a libertarian nor a Libertarian. At least, friends who apply this description to themselves would not apply that label to me.

    (Al Dente, 197): “ … has come to tell the atheists all about the joys of the corporate feudalism he wants installed throughout the world. ..”

    Al pretends to read minds. “to” is a statement of intention. Maybe the error enters in the different expectations we have of the effects of competitive markets.

    (Al Dente, 197): “… Tell me, Malcolm, why is it that libertarians are so held in contempt by normal people? Is it your rabid distrust of society? Is it your narcissistic self-absorption? Is it your innate selfishness? Or is it some other characteristic which makes the rest of us regard you with the same attitude we take to a rotting, maggot infested, dead dog?

    Why are strident anti-libertarians (around here, anyway) so coarse? Dunno. I’m no mind reader. I would not presume to assert the attitude that a “normal” person takes wrt libertarians.

  184. says

    Aww, the Psychic Sleazeball Tone Troll is back.
    Malcolm Kirkpatrick, I hope one day you’ll realize the substance of a comment is more important than the tone. Your first comment here was offensive, but contained no harsh words. My responses to you have mocked you and contained invective because of the insulting comparison you drew between PZ and a rapist/murderer. That you think using naughty words (most, if not all of which are considered bad in large part bc of religion–and hey! I’m an atheist, so I don’t give two shits about people recoiling in horror from FUCK) is worse than dishonestly comparing someone who has never raped, tortured or murdered anyone to someone who *has* raped, tortured, and murdered people is fucked up.

  185. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    (anteprepro, 202): “I notice that Malcolm’s newly revealed voucher fetish …
    Where? “Voucher” occurs only in the titles of works I recommend. I prefer a policy I call “Parent Performance Contracting”.

    (anteprepro, 202): “ … doesn’t actually address the points vaiyt was addressing:
    Compulsory attendance, taxes financing education, unions, state curricula, minimum wages, and child labor laws.

    Actually, it does. Most policies that enhance parent control (e.g., tuition vouchers, tuition tax credits, relaxed restrictions on homeschooling, small school districts, charter schools) will enhance system performance.

    (anteprepro, 202): “ … Malcolm couldn’t be arsed to show how his utopian alternative fixes these Horrible Horrible Things, but rest assured, they are still Horrible Horrible Things. …

    What “utopian fixes”? Many countries currently subsidize education options outside the State-operated school system. It’s totalitarian countries (e.g., Cuba, North Korea, etc.) that restrict parents’ education options to State (government, generally) schools.

    (anteprepro, 202): “ … So yeah: Gibbertarian.
    So, yeah: wild mischaracterization of the argument and childish name-calling.

  186. says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick @195:

    Off topic, but vaiyt asked a civil question.

    Civility can be (and often is) overrated.

    From the commenting rules:

    V. Recommended attitudes:
    This is a rude blog. Expect rough handling.
    Justice is more important than civility. But aspire to be charitable at first.

    Let’s take a look at your original comment:

    Myers: “I drink your tears.”
    That’s how Charles Ng
    felt, I expect.
    Freethought blog or thoughtfree blog? Atheists define themselves by their opposition. That’s a mistake. “Materialist” neutrally describes the materialist worldview.

    The words are civil.
    The substance of this comment, however, is all kinds of offensive and uncivil.

  187. anteprepro says

    Malcolm

    Where? “Voucher” occurs only in the titles of works I recommend.

    You don’t have a voucher fetish, you just happen to cite a bunch articles talking about the magical and wondrous might of vouchers. Riiiiiight.

    Most policies that enhance parent control…will enhance system performance.

    Again, system performance improving doesn’t stop taxes from being required. Doesn’t stop mandatory attendance. Doesn’t stop teachers from needing unions. Doesn’t abolish the minimum wage. Doesn’t obviate the need for child labor laws. So is it just blatant handwaving all the way down with you?

    Many countries currently subsidize education options outside the State-operated school system. It’s totalitarian countries (e.g., Cuba, North Korea, etc.) that restrict parents’ education options to State (government, generally) schools.

    Because the worst thing about totalitarian countries are requiring an education. Because only totalitarian countries would possibly think that letting education be a privatized, for-profit enterprise is a bad idea.

    Nice attempt to poison the well though. Great work.

    So, yeah: wild mischaracterization of the argument and childish name-calling.

    Your allegation of mischaracterization remains to be proven. As for name-calling: welcome to Pharyngula. I will fetch you a fainting couch.

  188. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    So, yeah: wild mischaracterization of the argument and childish name-calling.

    Nope, accurate all the way around. You are the childish one thinking private education should use public monies in any way–unless the schools will also take the ones the public system would like to get rid of.

  189. says

    MK:

    So, yeah: wild mischaracterization of the argument and childish name-calling.

    Still more hurt fee fees. Anteprepro called you a gibbertarian. I suspect that’s a mashup of gibberish and libertarian, and that certainly fits with your opinions thus far. If you’re going to hang around here for any length of time, you need to ditch your whining about tone.

    Why are strident anti-libertarians (around here, anyway) so coarse? Dunno. I’m no mind reader. I would not presume to assert the attitude that a “normal” person takes wrt libertarians.

    (coarseness is such a baaaaaad thing)
    Have you ever stopped to think about the impact libertarian philosophy would have on people? I have. If libertarian policies were put into full effect, people who don’t have power and wealth would suffer. Deregulations and eliminating government assistance are but two examples of libertarian beliefs. Both of those would lead to increased suffering, but hey, it wouldn’t affect libertarians (or so they think), so they’re cool with both. Which makes them selfish assholes deserving of coarseness and invective.
    Think. It. Through.

  190. anteprepro says

    Tony! at 208

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick, I hope one day you’ll realize the substance of a comment is more important than the tone. Your first comment here was offensive, but contained no harsh words. My responses to you have mocked you and contained invective because of the insulting comparison you drew between PZ and a rapist/murderer. That you think using naughty words (most, if not all of which are considered bad in large part bc of religion–and hey! I’m an atheist, so I don’t give two shits about people recoiling in horror from FUCK) is worse than dishonestly comparing someone who has never raped, tortured or murdered anyone to someone who *has* raped, tortured, and murdered people is fucked up.

    This.

    Don’t you dare fucking tone troll us after what you’ve said, Malcolm. Maybe if you apologize for such a disgusting remark, then you might have a semblance of a standpoint by which you could act smug and lecture us about tone. Until then, you are ridiculously fucking hypocritical.

  191. Malcolm Kirkpatrick says

    (Tony, 213): “… If you’re going to hang around here for any length of time…
    Probably not. I passed through a couple of years ago. Things haven’t changed much. The signal to noise ratio doesn’t reward the time spent here (unless one enjoys noise).

    One last reading recommendation: compare and contrast the tone of Richard Dawkins’ __The God Delusion__ and Daniel Dennett’s __Breaking the Spell__. I’m very much a fan of Dawkins as an explicator of evolutionary biology. I suggest that the style he applies to his anti-religious publications and lectures works against him. Read Dennett to see how to do it right.

  192. says

    MK:

    (Tony, 213): “… If you’re going to hang around here for any length of time…”
    Probably not. I passed through a couple of years ago. Things haven’t changed much. The signal to noise ratio doesn’t reward the time spent here (unless one enjoys noise).

    Well then, BUH bye cupcake.

    I’m very much a fan of Dawkins as an explicator of evolutionary biology. I suggest that the style he applies to his anti-religious publications and lectures works against him. Read Dennett to see how to do it right.

    Ah, you’re a proponent of there’s a right way and a wrong way to argue. Do you even recognize that the tone of a particular argument might work to convince you, but not others? Do you realize that some people respond to invective laden arguments, but not to so-called ‘civil’ arguments? Do you realize that people are not monolithic, and that different styles of argumentation reach different types of people?

    PZ has blogged about a range of topics, such as rape, abortion, feminism, sexual harassment, climate change, gun control, & libertarianism. Threads like these often contain quite a bit of ‘signal’, but then you’d know that if you bothered to read them.

    Oh, and given your comments here (especially your initial turd) it is especially ironic that you complain about the ‘signal to noise ratio’ at Pharyngula.

  193. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Tony!, #6^3:

    You misunderstand. Malcolm Kirkpatrick, like so many of the greatest thinkers of our age (Vox Day, I’m looking at you), has very specific definitions of signal and noise:

    When I talk, it’s signal.
    When you talk, it’s noise.

  194. Al Dente says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick,

    You may claim not to be a libertarian but you do an extremely good imitation of one. Your school voucher fetish is so close to a libertarian argument as makes no difference, especially when complaining about “compulsory taxing.” If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck and looks like a duck….

  195. chigau (違う) says

    Malcolm Kirkpatrick
    Is using

    blockquotes

    too complicated for you or are you making some kind of “statement”?

  196. anteprepro says

    It’s also ironic that Malcolm follows up his “signal to noise” whine with a whine about tone. Because we haven’t argued about that vapid position to death already!

    Malcolm, a signal that it is repetitive enough is noise. A signal that isn’t novel enough is noise. A signal that is an utterly unoriginal, misinformed, uncritical, and unreflective statement is just noise. You are a hypocrite, through and through.

  197. vaiyt says

    @Malcolm Kirkpatrick

    Don’t use me as a club to beat on the other people here.

    In abstract, the education industry is an unlikely candidate for State (government, generally) operation.

    I’d say it’s a prime candidate, because it’s a common good that works best when it’s equal across the board.

    Numerous lines of evidence support the following generalizations:
    1) As institutions take from individual parents the power to determine for their own children the choice of curriculum and the pace and method of instruction, overall system performance falls,

    Do you know what “evidence” means? Hint: it doesn’t mean “conjecture with no data to support it”. Where in the real world did parental control succeed? Where did institutional control fail? If you don’t have citations, at least some examples would help.

    Why do you think parents, and not, say, qualified educators, are the best judges of both curriculum and pedagogy?

    2) Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents (“Well, duh!” as my students would say).

    What does “politically adept” even mean? As in, children of politicians and people with connections get the best education in detriment of others? As opposed to, say, children of rich parents in a purely private system?