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Oct 17 2013

The American Indian Movement Manifesto on Racism in Sports and Media

This Manifesto is being sent to scores of media organizations, involved governmental and regulatory bodies, key government and law enforcement officials, the Minnesota Sports Facilities Authority, the National Football League, the Minnesota Vikings, the Washington DC Professional Football Team, all Professional Sports Teams using Indigenous Mascots, all advertisers providing income to the teams and leagues, the leaders of indigenous communities and all people who cherish the freedom to live our lives without prejudice.

October 16, 2013

NO INDIGENOUS CHILD, NO CHILD,
SHOULD GROW UP IN A WORLD
WHERE PROFESSIONAL SPORTS AND MEDIA
PERSIST IN USING DISCRIMINATORY NAMES & MASCOTS.
CHANGE THE NAME
CHANGE THE MASCOT

The battle for equality, and against prejudice, requires eternal vigilance for the long list of people subject to the bite of institutional discrimination – women, religious minorities, people of color, indigenous people, immigrants, seniors, LGBT people, poor people, people with physical and behavioral differences….

It is illegal in the United States to discriminate against anyone on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, sex, physical difference or gender preference. We, the Indigenous People of America, are victims of discrimination on the basis of race, religion, national origin and institutional ignorance. While many indigenous people choose to live their lives with pride and independence from the negative influences of institutional racism, it remains necessary to assert our equal rights as citizens of the United States through education and legal action.

The name for the Washington DC football team is a racial slur, an illegal form of hate speech and discrimination, that damages a protected class of people by denying us respect and equality: in the workplace, at government funded facilities and contractors, at public gatherings, over regulated airwaves, and in corporations producing electronic and print content. The “R” word has no place in a country of equals. No similar denigrating term for other protected classes of people would be tolerated, and we would not accept any such denigration of anyone. Yet, sports organizations, media organizations and many fans have inherited and perpetrated an immunity to the racism embedded in derogatory indigenous sports names and mascots, and the damage they do to the freedom of anyone to live their lives without experiencing prejudice or ridicule.

The argument or rationalization that indigenous sports mascots and racist names filled with fan tradition should somehow be immune from the laws of the land that protect people from discrimination hardly matches the damage to the heritage and traditions of indigenous people perpetrated by the mascots, by the names, and by centuries of desecration and injustice that continue to this day.

All Indigenous Mascots manufactured for professional and school sports teams by and for non-­indigenous people are unwelcome caricatures that do not represent the religion, culture, beliefs and rich history of native people.

Moreover, there is overwhelming evidence from impartial academic research that unwelcome indigenous mascots and stereotypes and caricatures damage indigenous children, damage indigenous futures, and damage the perception of all protected classes.

While our actions are addressing offensive language and images, we want to be clear that our objective is to stop the damage to our children, and to all protected classes by asserting and seeking enforcement of the US Constitution and the many Federal, State, County, City and Municipal laws explicitly designed to protect us from harm.

We, the American Indian Movement, insist that all racist sports names and mascots that appropriate our names and images be changed by the media and by the perpetrators so that they can no longer harm our children, and deny indigenous people and all protected classes of people our civil rights.

We are a beautiful part of the fabric of the United States of America, as are all of our fellow brothers and sisters experiencing systemic injustice.

Appropriated Indigenous Mascots and Names are Institutionally Racist and contribute to severe hardships faced by many indigenous people. The extent of damage is unimaginable to all but us. Do your part to bring us all together.

The American Heritage Dictionary Definition of Redskin:

red·skin (rĕdskĭn′)
n.
Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a Native American.

To the National Football League, the Washington DC Football Team, and to all other Professional & School Sports Teams & Stadium Authorities choosing to Appropriate Indigenous Names and Mascots:

This is a formal notification that your organization’s choice to continue your appropriation of our religion and heritage and culture and images and leaders and language for your financial benefit and amusement, despite ample cures and alternatives, damages the self concept and income producing potential of indigenous children specifically, and all indigenous people as a protected class, and violates our civil rights.

On or before October 25, 2013, in advance of election day, we request that your organization publicly state your intention to Change Your Mascot & Name or your intent to continue to willfully harm a protected class of people.

We understand the inherited tradition of these names and mascots and the strong emotions they conjure. We believe that institutional racism is hard to change and we are asking you to begin that journey now. No indigenous sports mascot or name manufactured by and for non-­indigenous people honors us, is welcomed by us, is celebrated without denigration, or is an accurate representation of our race, our religion and our heritage.

If after October 25, 2013 you plan to continue the use of caricatures of our names and our people indefinitely, we plan to consider the following actions to protect our people and our rights under the laws of our country:

We will explore the potential for a class action lawsuit naming your organization as a defendant. You are a willful party with the clear intent to continue to harm a class of protected people. Plaintiffs may include indigenous children, all indigenous people, and all protected classes. Damages may include lost income, psychological damage, medical expenses and punitive assessments. Our legal team includes attorneys associated with the successful tobacco and clean indoor air damage claims.

For the Washington Football Team and the Cleveland Baseball Team, because your mascots and names are so vulgar and denigrating, we will seek all legal and political remedies to protect indigenous people from your brand of hate, and from your blatant and illegal disregard for existing discrimination and labor law protections in code and statute.

We will seek Public Licensing and Public Regulatory remedies linked to your conscious disregard for and damage to the public interest, your disregard for FCC requirements, and your use of profane and grossly offensive language and images known to cause harm to children and members of the public.

We will pursue remedies including injunctions, bans and damages at the Federal, State, County, City, and Municipal levels – asking that they immediately enforce all applicable legal protections and remedies that exist in writing that are intended to protect employees, contractors, children and the general public from hate crimes and acts of discrimination, harassment, profanity and abuse.

We will organize people in your community to oppose your use of denigrating mascots, and we will pursue boycotts, protests and specific large scale boycott actions aimed at your advertisers.

We are asking you to change. A private organization has the right to freedom of speech but not the freedom to publicly incite racial hatred. Public organizations, publicly funded organizations, and corporations and organizations regulated by the public have a higher standard. They do not have the right to harm any class of people because of the color of their skin, or because of any other aspect of their appearance, origin or beliefs.

To the politicians in Wisconsin and elsewhere who are attempting to assert your ignorance and racism and political power to make it more difficult for schools to change their indigenous names and mascots, we ask you to stop the denigration and discrimination. We urge all citizens to vote for people who believe in an inclusive nation that does no harm to our children.

Once you have received this public notification, you may not hide any further behind your ignorance or tolerance. Your conscious choice to continue to harm a class of people must have just consequences if we are to preserve a union where all men and women are created equal. A simple remedy exists for the profound damage mascots cause by your use.

Use alternative words and images that communicate without harm. We look forward to hearing your public decision about the continuation of your discriminatory mascots and names before October 25th, 2013.

To the Minnesota Sports Facilities Authority, the Minnesota Vikings, and the State of Minnesota:

We believe the Governor of the State of Minnesota, the Commissioners of the Minnesota Sports Facilities Authority, and the Ownership of the Minnesota Vikings are publicly required to be aligned with our commitment to equality and human rights.

Your passage of the Construction Services Agreement Equity Plan is a powerful demonstration of the proactive protection and engagement of women, minorities and veterans in the economics of building a new sports facility for the people, and suggests you recognize your responsibility to pursue equality for all people.

We ask you, the publicly owned Minnesota Sports Facilities Authority, to not allow the posting on any electronic or print sign on your premises the discriminatory name of the DC team, or broadcast across the public address system the discriminatory name of the DC team, so that you can avoid creating an illegal and damaging workplace, an illegal and damaging event and an illegal and damaging accommodation. Many alternative forms of speech are available that do not offend, do not convey hate and do not denigrate a protected class of people.

On November 7, 2013, the Washington DC professional football team comes to Minneapolis to play football at the government funded and operated Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome where civil rights laws and labor laws prohibit discrimination of any kind and where over 200,000 nearby indigenous people live their lives.

Minnesota has a legacy of leading the nation in civil rights first with Hubert H. Humphrey, Walter Mondale and Paul Wellstone, and now with two strong Senators who support equality for all, Amy Klobuchar and Al Franken. Congresswoman McCollum has

co-­sponsored legislation to address the trademark protections for the Washington DC’s discriminatory name (“R” word) and is a national leader against the continuation of sports mascots. Congressman Ellison is also a passionate defender of human rights.

Any print or broadcast use of the name currently utilized by the DC football team within the property owned by the people of Minnesota violates Federal labor laws, hate speech protections and broadcast decency licenses, violates State, City and County labor laws and civil rights protections, violates the operational and employment bylaws of the Minnesota Sports Facilities Authority, and violates the civil rights of every indigenous person by denying us equal protection under the fourteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

Your responsibility is to the people of Minnesota. We will be at the October 25th meeting of the MSFA and ask that we have time on the agenda to discuss the opportunity for you to choose to be on the correct side of history, to make history, by honoring Federal,

State and Local laws that clearly do not permit the “R” word, an explicit form of institutional racism, with explicit damage to indigenous people, from being seen or heard in the People’s Stadium. It is simply illegal.

If, on October 25th, 2013 you do not vote to follow the laws of the land, and proactively and publicly ban the use of the “R” word in the Metrodome, we plan, in addition to the actions identified for perpetrating teams, to consider pursuing appropriate actions which may include:

All remedies prohibiting the use of the “R” word and images at the Metrodome before or during the November 7th game using the many City, County, State, Federal and International laws designed to prohibit expressions of hatred based upon race or nationality. These include:

The Minnesota Sports Facilities Authority’s own harassment and offensive behavior policy that explicitly prohibits discrimination, harassment and offensive behavior.

The Minneapolis Ordinances designed to effectuate non discrimination and to protect minors.

The Minnesota Human Rights Act. We are prepared to deny or decertify MSFA’s certificate of compliance.

Further, we are prepared to bring this matter to International Attention. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, of which the US is a signatory, prohibits “any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination”. Further, racist names violate the International Declaration of Indigenous Rights which the US signed last year.

To Media Organizations including newspapers, electronic publishers, radio broadcasters, television and cable broadcasters, public address announcers and individuals covering professional sports:

We are asking you to consciously avoid the print and verbal use of all commercially manufactured indigenous sports team names, and similarly, consciously avoid the images of the names and mascots when covering these teams. We are asking you to refer to the teams using their city names and to use images that avoid as much as possible their unwelcome indigenous name and mascot images.

Individuals and organizations have acted to replace mascot words and images with alternatives that do not have damaging consequences. A partial and growing list includes:

Washington City Paper, Kansas City Star, DCist, Gregg Easterbrook (ESPN.com), Slate, Mother Jones, The New Republic, Peter King (Sports Illustrated and MMQB.com), Bill Simmons (ESPN and Grantland), Christine Brennan (USA Today), Mike Wise (Washington Post), Warren Pierce (WJR Radio).

Sadly, the Star Tribune chose a few years ago to reverse its policy honoring the civil rights of Indigenous People and now permits the regular use of the “R” word and unrestricted use of damaging Indigenous names and images. The recent appointment of a new editor offers an opportunity to immediately reset to a policy that does no harm to the children of America.

Greater sadness and disappointment comes from the Pioneer Press. In a recent telephone conversation, the editor of the Pioneer Press emphatically stated that his policy was to continue to report without editorial license the Indigenous team names and images, including the “R” word, until such time as the non-­Indigenous teams changed their manufactured and damaging names and images.

The American Psychological Association, Indigenous Children, Indigenous Parents and tens of millions of citizens who believe in human equality ask you to voluntarily act now, immediately, to remove the stain of mascots from print and the airwaves, from public address systems and electronic signs to the internet, and from our consciousness.

We recognize that in order to preserve the integrity of reporting it may be necessary in certain limited circumstances for the offending images and words to be used instead of alternatives -­ when addressing this issue educationally or providing accurate direct quotes from non-­involved parties.

Major Native American organizations, including the American Indian Movement: National

Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media, the National Congress of American Indians, the National Indian Education Association, the Native American Journalists Association, the Oneida Indian Nation of New York, the Native American Rights Fund, the Morning Star Institute, the International Indian Treaty Council, and the National Indian Youth Council, have opposed the continued use of the “R” word and all Indigenous Mascots manufactured by Non-­Indigenous People.

The “R” word is no different from the “N” word except that the institutional inherited racism associated with the use of Indigenous Mascots and Names by non-­indigenous people has maintained its political, social and financial momentum. You ignore the evidence that such use is damaging and entirely unnecessary, and such use would never be tolerated for analogous situations with other protected classes. You ignore the evidence that the reason you persist in denigrating a class of people is because of embedded racism – by definition.

We believe in the freedom of the press, and the freedom of speech. Your organization already has editorial policies and if you are a broadcaster you have regulated editorial policies that filter out a list of certain vulgar and offensive terms, and classes of obscene images. The “R” word and the Cleveland Mascot Image and all other Indigenous Mascots harm our children and our nation. There is no logic, no ethics, no rationalization for the continued publication of versions of the N word that continue to harm the very people we have harmed the most in this country. If you examine analogies, no similar names or mascots would be acceptable if similarly applied to gay people, women, religious groups, people from Asia, people with physical differences etc.

The media of this nation seem to believe it is their right and duty to use the name REDSKINS and other denigrating mascots words and images. This horrific racist name, designed to be derogatory, and its accompanying manufactured images, are broadcast and imprinted into the minds of all indigenous people, all indigenous children, all children and before the world. The truth is the “R” word is not any different than the “N” word except that all of us have become accustomed to sports driven forms of institutional racism.

The most egregious damage occurs with the words and images associated with REDSKINS. Other offensive and discriminatory names and images include INDIANS, BRAVES, BLACKHAWKS AND CHIEFS.

Impartial academic research is abundantly clear that mascots and stereotypes harm the targeted class of people, Indigenous People, with children being the most affected by negative consequences.

Moreover, this same research suggests that any specific use of mascots and stereotypes crosses over and affects all protected classes because any demeaning of one class increases the context and perceptions of all targeted classes as to their social status and self image, and increases the likelihood that the general population will view all classes of protected people with a lesser perception of equality.

Editors throughout the country maintain standards that prevent certain words and images to be used when they are unnecessary or specifically harmful or not appropriate for children. We ask that you filter the detrimental words and images out, and replace them with alternative references that convey the necessary meaning without incurring the harm.

We, and the American Psychological Association, recommend the discontinuance of any and all references to the “Redskin” words and images, and other similar mascots, because it harms the self-­image of our children, it reflects an inequality that affects attitudes and behaviors, and it reflects a continued institutional racism that is no longer acceptable today for other minority groups. The many laws protecting all people from racism need to be enforced for indigenous people.

We ask you to recognize that what is at stake is your willingness to recognize and overcome overt racism. We ask you to stop enabling the words and symbols that harm not only our children but all of us. Edit out their racist names and images unless they are essential for context or education.

Let the shame and harm be on the perpetrators. Not us.

We believe the word “Redskin” is a form of hate speech, is discriminatory, is vulgar, violates certain federal and state labor laws, violates the editorial standards of most media organization except when it comes to indigenous people, and is entirely unnecessary regardless of whether a racist owner chooses to change the name or

not. “Redskin” is deeply offensive because it was originally utilized to designate contempt for the remains of murdered American Indians.

We believe all indigenous sports mascots manufactured for commercial benefit by and for non-­indigenous people are similarly denigrating and harmful to a race of people.

The time is now to take a position that is on the right side of justice and equality for the millions of indigenous people, and for all children who are damaged by the outright racism expressed by the word “Redskin” and other indigenous mascots.

On behalf of the Change The Mascot Movement, the American Indian Movement, and millions of citizens, we urge you to take a single easy step that will help tip the national scales against the never-­ending discrimination of indigenous people. There is a growing list of media organizations and reporters who are refusing to broadcast hate because a few men have decided it is ok to cause damage to an entire nation of people in order to preserve tradition. This is a formal request for a change in your editorial policy.

We are asking your organization, no later than October 25th, 2013, to establish and publicize your policy, one that we hope consciously minimizes or bans the use of Indigenous mascot words and images when alternatives carry the necessary story and meaning.

We plan to challenge any media organization that continues to utilize the harmful manufactured Indigenous mascots that are entirely unnecessary for the majority of

media coverage. If the mascot analogy were applied to other protected groups, we know you would not choose to continue the practice of robotically using offensive and discriminatory words and images for other protected classes.

We hope you will voluntarily agree that it is institutional racism that has influenced your editorial policy, and that filtering your coverage in the same way you do for other topics such as obscenity and denigration is on the right side of history, the law, education and human rights.

If your decision by October 25th, 2013 is to continue the robotic practice of using denigrating manufactured indigenous mascots, we will explore a class action lawsuit citing your willful denial of existing laws and existing research that associates your unnecessary use of these mascots with significant damage to the wellbeing of children and a class of people. We will also pursue other remedies that include the enforcement of discrimination laws and civil actions such as boycotts of your organization and your advertisers.

For those media organizations regulated by the FCC, we will seek to challenge your broadcast licenses on the basis that you’re entirely unnecessary use of harmful Indigenous mascots and names amount to willful acts of negligence that are not in the public interest, that amount to the broadcast of obscene and vulgar language and image, that are clearly discriminatory, that violate State, Federal and Local laws, and that are known to cause harm to an entire protected class of people.

You are invited to participate in or follow our symposium on the topic of Indigenous sports mascots that will be held at the University of Minnesota on November 5th, 2013.

To ALL Governmental Agencies, Elected Officials and Representatives, Government Paid Public Servants, Court and Regulatory Bodies and Law Enforcement Agencies at the Federal, State, County, City and Municipal levels:

There are many issues facing the people of the United States. Only one issue appears in our media with institutional regularity virtually every day of every year. It is the

institutional racism inherent in the words and images associated with Indigenous sports mascots. No other protected class of people in America are subject to daily caricatures of name and image in stadiums and across all media that harass and degrade our culture, our names, our language, our heritage, our leaders and our religion.

Indigenous People in America suffer greatly and disproportionately from centuries of discrimination and oppression.

We have found scores of laws at the International, Federal, State, County, City and Municipal level, including cherished constitutional protections, that prohibit the expressions of hate speech and harassment and discrimination that you have permitted to continue through your inaction. The fact that no other protected class experiences this degree of pervasive denigration is the very definition of institutional racism.

We ask you, as our leaders, as our representatives, as the protectors of justice and human rights, and as the administrators of our constitutional guarantees:

Please stop the harm of Indigenous mascots and racist names, particularly the heinous examples from DC and Cleveland by denying them the right to display and disseminate their hate speech in public, in the workplace, to children, and across regulated media by enforcing the laws of the land – now!

You are invited to participate in or follow our symposium on the topic of indigenous sports mascots that will be held at the University of Minnesota on November 5th, 2013.

To ALL people who believe in an inclusive Constitution of the United States and recognize that all forms of institutionalized discrimination by Governments and Corporations are illegal and damage the fabric of our nation:

Vote for people who will actively work to protect the rights of Indigenous people, and all people, to live their lives without discrimination.

Contact your government representatives and officials and ask them to act now to enforce the laws of the land that prohibit discrimination and harassment and hate speech.

Contact your sports team and your stadium authority and ask them to Change the Mascot and avoid any dissemination of all denigrating Indigenous sports mascots in word and image. Record and report their use of denigrating and illegal indigenous mascots.

Contact, publicize and boycott all of the perpetrating teams and their advertisers.

If you are an Indigenous person who is an employee, contractor or fan experiencing the denigration of Indigenous sports mascots and names manufactured by non-­Indigenous people for non-­Indigenous people, please express yourself to the perpetrators and contact us.

If you are able to volunteer, or donate money or resources to the American Indian Movement, please contact us at the National Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media. Educate and Participate.

CHANGE THE MASCOT
STOP THE R WORD
STOP INDIGENOUS NAMES AND MASCOTS

Contact Us

Changing Winds
Richie Plass: 920-­615-­6558,
612-­567-­0123[email protected]www.yworlds.com/changethemascot

American Indian Movement
National Coalition on Racism in Sports and Media
Clyde Bellecourt: 612-­886-­2107,
612-­251-­5836 clyde.[email protected]www.aimcollection.org

270 comments

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  1. 1
    deadguykai

    They need some better fact checking. The Chicago Blackhawks are named in honor of an American army unit in WW1 with which the team’s original owner served.

  2. 2
    wyobio

    also, tl;dr.

  3. 3
    wyobio

    Also, the pillsbury doughboy and michelin bibendum are discrimination against fat white men. Stop the discrimination! Contact everyone!

  4. 4
    Inaji

    Didn’t take long for the whitesplaining to start. Wasicu takuni slolye sni.

  5. 5
    dogfightwithdogma

    I 100% support ending this discriminatory, not to mention offensive, practice. I stopped purchasing merchandise years ago that has the Cleveland baseball team logo and name on it. I stopped attending their games, in part because of their continued use of a name and logo that I think is disparaging of native Americans.

    @1: Why was this WW1 called by this name?

  6. 6
    Inaji

    deadguykai:

    They need some better fact checking. The Chicago Blackhawks are named in honor of an American army unit in WW1 with which the team’s original owner served.

    You need some fact checking. Here, I’ll help you out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackhawks

    Do you know the history of the Sauk Indian, Black Hawk? Are you aware that the military division was named after him? Hmmm? Or did you just show up to indulge in inaccurate whitesplaining? Let’s hear your whitesplaining as to the Blackhawks logo, shall we?

  7. 7
  8. 8
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    wyobio:

    Where did the army unit get that name? And, if I recall correctly, they chose that nickname for the unit because of the stereotyped ‘bloodthirstyness’ of Indians. Short version, using a racist nickname of an Army unit as the inspiration for a racist nickname of a sports team does not magically make it not racist.

  9. 9
    Jackie

    I can’t believe that sports teams still use these names. Ick. It is shameful.

  10. 10
    Joey Maloney

    tl;dr – offensive names are offensive. don’t be a dick.

  11. 11
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Joey Maloney:

    Please do not use gendered insults. They are not welcome here.

  12. 12
    David Marjanović

    also, tl;dr.

    Not for manifesto standards. The Communist Manifesto has 72 pages or so.

  13. 13
    Dave, ex-Kwisatz Haderach

    Wow, the racist assholes are fucking quick today eh? First three fucking comments.

    It disgusting that those names are still in use. I support this 100%!

  14. 14
    deadguykai

    Yes, I’m fully aware of who Blackhawk was. Pity that a sports team can’t name itself in a way that honors a local historical figure.

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics. Have you seen the Celtics’ or Notre Dame logos? How demeaning to Irish people! There aren’t even any Celtics on the Celtics!

    Tell you what, though, my aunt knows the Blackhawks owner. I’ll have her put in a word for you folks.

  15. 15
    ChasCPeterson

    if I recall correctly

    this is no longer necessary or, in my view, warranted.
    If it’s worth taking the time to comment, it’s worth taking the time to g**gle it first, or in this case just read the preceding comments.

  16. 16
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    deadguykai:

    Check out who released this manifesto. Why should a manifesto issued by the AIM include Notre Dame, or the Boston Celtics, or the Minnesota Vikings? So because we have been discussing the AIM manifesto, discussing the OP, that means we are okay with all other racism?

    Ah, you must have studied under the renowned Doctor I. M. Strahemanne.

  17. 17
    Inaji

    deadguykai:

    Yes, I’m fully aware of who Blackhawk was.

    I see. That must be why you went out of your way to make the point that it was a military name, nothing at all to do with Indians, why the logo alone is military, right?

    Pity that a sports team can’t name itself in a way that honors a local historical figure.

    Honour? Are you sure about that, because if this goes with the rest of your idea of accuracy, you’re way the fuck off base.

  18. 18
    carlie

    Fuck yeah, is what I have to say to the whole document.

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics. Have you seen the Celtics’ or Notre Dame logos? How demeaning to Irish people! There aren’t even any Celtics on the Celtics!

    When was the last time the United States had a governmental policy advocating for genocide to be committed on Vikings, Irish, or Celts? How many laws and policies currently actively and/or passively discriminate against Vikings, Irish, or Celts? There’s your answer.

  19. 19
    ChasCPeterson

    I’m fully aware of who Blackhawk was. Pity that a sports team can’t name itself in a way that honors a local historical figure.

    His name was Black Hawk. And if you were aware of it, why did you claim the team was named for a WWI unit? And if they were named for a WWI unit, why isn’t their logo something like this?

    The DC football team is, of course, the very worst offender. But I wonder if the Chicago hockey team could get away with simply changing their logo to something like this? It’s a real species, and an awesome one at that.

  20. 20
    Inaji

    deadguykai:

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics.

    Of course, that’s a perfectly legitimate reason for you to continue whitesplaining, ennit? Why, us Indians should just shut the fuck up, if we aren’t going to fight for the rights of Irish, Celtic, and Viking peoples first. After all, just the natural order, white peoples first.

  21. 21
    fernando

    I always thought that some of the names and mascots of american clubs (by the way, im not american, so my knowledge about this all is quite incipient) were that way because they represent positive qualities of some amerindian cultures and animals of the north-american fauna, that were adopted has symbols of some sport clubs.

  22. 22
    Inaji

    19:

    His name was Black Hawk.

    Thank you, Chas.

  23. 23
    carlie
    if I recall correctly

    this is no longer necessary or, in my view, warranted.
    If it’s worth taking the time to comment, it’s worth taking the time to g**gle it first, or in this case just read the preceding comments.

    Fuck yeah to this, too. It’s a difficult habit to get out of (I still do it myself sometimes), but it’s worth the effort.

  24. 24
    Inaji

    Fernando:

    were that way because they represent positive qualities of some amerindian cultures and animals of the north-american fauna

    Do you even realize that you lumped human beings and animals into one category? And Redskins? In what way is that some sort of positive quality of a particular nation’s culture?

  25. 25
    Sven

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like… Vikings

    I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling or if you really are this stupid.

  26. 26
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics. Have you seen the Celtics’ or Notre Dame logos? How demeaning to Irish people! There aren’t even any Celtics on the Celtics!

    I am getting so fucking tired of Dear Muslima.

  27. 27
    The Mellow Monkey

    deadguykai @ 14

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics. Have you seen the Celtics’ or Notre Dame logos? How demeaning to Irish people! There aren’t even any Celtics on the Celtics!

    Are you suggesting that because white people aren’t complaining, Indians have no right to complain? Or that Indians should defend white people first before they can defend themselves?

    However other groups feel about the issue–and they all have their own unique histories–doesn’t take away from the impact this has on Indians today. It’s perpetuating a dehumanizing viewpoint in which we are seen as historical figures or some sort of old west fantasy instead of modern living people. And some of these sports teams are using names which are actual slurs.

  28. 28
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    fernando:

    Even if it were true that (which (from what we know of Marshall) it probably is not) this was meant to honour American Indians, the fact that the name has been used as a racial epithet for over a century, and the group meant to be honoured object to the epithet, doesn’t matter? Only what some old rich white men think counts but the victims of racial stereotyping don’t count?

    This shit is not new. In the late 1800s, the United States Department of the Interior’s Bureau of Indian Affairs went before the US Supreme Court and got a legal judgement declaring that the BIA can abrogate any or all of a treaty between an Indian Nation and the United States Government if the BIA thought it was in the best interest of the Indians. In other words, even 100 or so years ago, only the rich white men mattered and the Indians were screwed.

  29. 29
    chigau (違う)

    deadguykai #14

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics.

    I guess you didn’t use google, either.

  30. 30
    george gonzalez

    My usual guidepost is to turn things around, how would my cohorts like the idea of some team of American Indians playing one of their games under the names “NY Bankers” or “Georgia Rednecks”, or “Tallahassee Crackers”?

    Probably would not go over well.

  31. 31
    ChasCPeterson

    names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics

    In 2004, Hofstra University changed their team name from the Flying Dutchmen to the Pride (logo: a pair of lions, one of each sex). (Then in 2009 they completely terminated the football program.)

  32. 32
    fernando

    Caine, i am quite ignorant about the subject, and only write that i thought (wrongly maybe) some of the names are adopted because of a perceived positive symbology, in any way i didn’t wanted to be offensive to any amerindian culture.

    Sorry if i sounded ofensive, wasn’t really my intention Caine. :)

  33. 33
    mattwatkins

    My hometown minor league team is the Spokane Indians. In 2006, the team collaborated with the Spokane Nations (who became an official team sponsor) to re-design the team’s logo. For many years, the team had avoided the use of any Indigenous imagery on their logos (though there are some pretty terrible ones from past decades), but with the collaboration, now have a feather on the logo, and a separate logo with the team’s name in Salish (the Nation’s traditional language.) http://www.khq.com/Global/story.asp?S=6415306

    Seems like this kind of collaboration could provide a model for how these sports teams could convert what is truly offensive into something that honors the dignity and tradition of Indigenous folks.

  34. 34
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    And before I get jumped on again, I am looking for the relevant court case — the only place I have seen it even mentioned was the Museum of the American Indian in Washington, DC.

  35. 35
    Doug Little

    Tallahassee Crackers

    It’s kind of got a nice ring to it. The major sponsor can be the Catholic Church.

  36. 36
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    My usual guidepost is to turn things around, how would my cohorts like the idea of some team of American Indians playing one of their games under the names “NY Bankers” or “Georgia Rednecks”, or “Tallahassee Crackers”?

    The Cleveland Indians could change their name to the Cleveland Rockers, since the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is located there. Washington R*****ns could become the Bureaucrats, as what is more scary than a bureaucrat. Similar solutions exist locally in most cases.

  37. 37
    fernando

    Thanks by your post Ogvorbis, that was quite informative.
    Indeed, if some culture object to some epithet because it find it ofensive, maybe is time to abandon that ephitet.

  38. 38
  39. 39
    Socio-gen, something something...

    deadguykai

    Notre Dame Fighting Irish: Named themselves after their shared ethnic identity.
    Boston Celtics: Named themselves after their city’s (majority) shared ethnic identity.
    Vikings? No longer in existence.

    And, in case anyone else brings them up:

    Trojans: No longer in existence.
    Spartans: No longer in existence.

    Native Americans: STILL FUCKING HERE. An existing group of people who are regularly victims of individual and systemic racism and discrimination.

    Fernando

    So what “positive qualities of amerindian culture” are they supposed to represent?

    My daughter’s high school mascot was the “Redskin.” It’s hardly coincidental that this happens to be a school built in rural Pennsylvania in the mid-1880′s.

    Do you know what it was like for her to go to a school in which a (small) part of her heritage was routinely the stuff of mockery — all in the name of “fun” and “tradition,” of course. Where, when she wrote an op-ed for her school newspaper, objecting to use of the Redskin name and logo, a tipi on the football field, and the “dumb Indians doing sports” caricatures in school newsletters, yearbook, etc, she was called “Pocahontas,” had kids making “tomahawk chop” gestures whenever they ran into her in the halls, and told to “go back to the reservation.”

    And this is a kid who is mostly White European in background and appearance, who (along with the rest of the family) grew up knowing little about her Native heritage because my paternal great-great-grandmother chose to cut all ties with her tribe and culture (Oneida, Iroquois), even to changing her name, in order to give her children the best chance to assimilate.

    Imagine the same thing happening to a child for whom most or all of their heritage is represented by these words, those images, those gestures. How might it teach them that they (and their culture) are inferior? How does that affect their view of themselves and what are the long-term effects down the road?

    THAT is why we need to eliminate these names. It won’t cure all the social ills affecting native people, (caused, as always, by systematic oppression, which we must also work to eliminate) but it’s a good a place to start.

  40. 40
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    The Cleveland Burning Rivers. Ooh no. The Cleveland Snow.

  41. 41
    whheydt

    I hope they win this fight.

    In part, because then those of us of Scandinavian descent can cite this as precedent to end the use of “Viking” in similar circumstances.

  42. 42
    gussnarp

    This manifesto sounds about right to me.

  43. 43
    Anthony K

    I also don’t see people complaining about names like Fighting Irish, Vikings or Celtics.

    ORLY?

    Apparently it is a big fucking deal, because every time the issue of Redskins comes up (or racism in general) you get every fucking asshole who’s got three freckles to tie back to their 1/8th Dubliner ancestry bring it up. Whine, whine, fucking whine.

  44. 44
    ChasCPeterson

    “tomahawk chop” gestures

    Man, that pisses me off. Thank you Dodgers for beating Atlanta in the playoffs so I don’t have to sit through that shit any more this year. I’ll never forgive Jane Fonda for participating.

  45. 45
    Anthony K

    Hey, lookie here:

    https://www.google.ca/search?q=what+about+the+fighting+irish&oq=what+about+the+fighting+irish&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.6248j0j7&sourceid=chrome&espv=210&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#es_sm=122&espv=210&q=is+fighting+irish+offensive

    So now you see lots.

    Now thank me for educating you, and be on your fucking way.

  46. 46
  47. 47
    Anthony K

    Ah, here’s the right link: https://www.google.ca/search?q=is+the+fighting+irish+racist

    Fucking google. Probably run by white guys.

  48. 48
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Anthony K’s link (I think)

    [Poetry unintended]

  49. 49
    indicus

    http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/08/how-many-native-americans-think-redskins-is-a-slur/

    Never mind that most Native Americans themselves don’t consider the term offensive. Never mind that many have embraced it and use it themselves. It is quite possible for a negative or derogatory or harmful thing to have its meaning taken and redirected by those who it was originally directed at. I can’t think of a better way to “get back” at such insults. Unless of course you people just enjoy getting out of bed each morning and wondering what you will be offended by this day.

  50. 50
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Oops, sorry.

  51. 51
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    And I am failing to find anything but the infamous Lone Wolf case. Sorry. I’ll leave. Disregard the second paragraph of my #28. I cannot find the source right now. Sorry.

  52. 52
    leepicton

    From my position of white privilege, I never gave these names a second thought, casually accepting them as normal. My consciousness has now been raised, and I now agree completely that these names must go. The “n” word (common in my childhood) has been rendered unacceptable. So may it be with these.

  53. 53
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    [bad attempt at humor]Hope the animal rights activists don’t join in the complaint, as the (I’m from Battle Creek) the Kellogg Community College Bruins might have to become the KCC Cornflakes.[/bad attempt at humor]

  54. 54
    ChasCPeterson

    most Native Americans themselves don’t consider the term offensive.

    citation needed.
    Your link doesn’t say that, you know; it’s JAQing.

    I can’t think of a better way to “get back” at such insults.

    that’s not the goal, idiot.

  55. 55
    Anthony K

    Unless of course you people just enjoy getting out of bed each morning and wondering what you will be offended by this day.

    Oh, it’s junior day on the internets.

    You know what “not getting offended” would look like, indicus? You not bothering to put in your two cents in on this dicsussion. And yet, here you are. Funny that.

    No mirrors in your house, obviously.

  56. 56
    cswella

    @49 inicus:

    “I can say racial slurs because I have a black friend and he says it’s okay”

  57. 57
    Anthony K

    “I can say racial slurs because I have a black friend and he says it’s okay”

    That looked familiar to you too, eh?

    Nevermind that so many whites are apparently intellectual clones that the same ol’ shit comes up every time, and yet we’re still obligated to listen to every one of them imagine themselves thoughtful and original on the subject.

  58. 58
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    indicus

    That fact that some do not find it offensive does not mean that others aren’t allowed to.

    •Effect of a name-change on those who happen to not find the present name offensive: zero
    •Effect of a name-change on those who happen to not find the present name offensive: +X
    •Likelihood of a strong negative effect on any group: zero

  59. 59
    nich

    @49:

    Is that you, Rick Reilly?

  60. 60
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Me @58

    And here I should give up trying to type.

    That second bullet point, obviously, should not have the word “not” in it.

  61. 61
    Inaji

    Indicus:

    Never mind that most Native Americans themselves don’t consider the term offensive.

    Oh? Lemme guess, you know an actual Indian, and you’d let them use your bathroom. This Indian finds the term offensive, you flaming doucheweasel.

    Never mind that many have embraced it and use it themselves.

    The fact that some NDNs use skins, generally on the rez, has nothing to do you, or with non-Indians feeling free to use offensive terms.

  62. 62
    chigau (違う)

    indicus #49
    Did you actually read that article?

  63. 63
    Anthony K

    Never mind that many have embraced it and use it themselves.

    So many people have embraced belief in god. Why fight mandatory school prayer?

    So I guess we’re done here, hey?

  64. 64
    PZ Myers

    You know, if a whole bunch of cranky Minnesota white people started complaining that the name “Vikings” dishonored their proud history, it would be changed real fast.

    When a bunch of cranky Minnesota Indians complain about a name that dishonors their proud history, we tell them to sit down and shut up.

  65. 65
    ChasCPeterson

    worth a thousand words

  66. 66
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    an illegal form of hate speech

    This…is contrafactual as I understand it.

    Agree otherwise.

  67. 67
    anuran

    No more offensive than the Kansas City Kikes, the San Diego Dagos or the Pittsburgh Peckerwoods.
    Honestly, how does anyone think this is acceptable?

  68. 68
    Michael Brew

    Whheydt @41

    Given that the vast majority of us Minnesotans, home of the Vikings, are of Scandinavian descent, I don’t think it’s going to change much. Not only that, the term Viking is often incorrectly applied to Scandinavians in general. In fact, it was a part-time job for some Scandinavians a long time ago, and Vikings no longer exist other than as purple clad football players.

    Indicus @49

    I see you didn’t read the article you posted.

  69. 69
    hrichmon

    Why should not the naming of the Washington football team be viewed as it was intended, a respectful tribute to a highly effective fighting people? If the football team fights as hard as the namesake people were reputed to have done, they do well. I grew up in a town where the high school team mascot was a fish. A fish, you say?? Yes, the mascot was the redside trout, the fighting Redside, a highly respected fighter in the river on which the town was located. Go Redsides! Fight, fight, fight!!

  70. 70
    kayden

    I recall when the Washington Bullets changed their names to the Wizards. Not understanding why the same cannot be done re the Washington Redskins. Why is the owner so attached to a derogatory term? Just let it go and move on.

  71. 71
    Inaji

    hrichmon:

    Why should not the naming of the Washington football team be viewed as it was intended, a respectful tribute to a highly effective fighting people?

    Yeah, redskins is real respectful. Aren’t there a lot of black people in Washington? How about the Washington N!ggers? That would be real respectful too.

  72. 72
    Onamission5

    @hrichmon #69:

    Most of the names, explains Ned Blackhawk, a Yale professor who specializes in Native American history and law, “come out of a period largely in the mid-twentieth century when the federal government was in the process of assimilating or ‘terminating’ the tribes. They reflect a larger governmental and racial atmosphere in America that did not see these tribes as constituents in the future of the republic.”

    http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115106/ranking-racist-sports-team-mascots-names-and-logos

    Can we stop with the whole “it’s a respectful tribute we’re honoring you so shut up” horseshit now please.

  73. 73
    Anthony K

    Why should not the naming of the Washington football team be viewed as it was intended, a respectful tribute to a highly effective fighting people?

    I hear the Micks were hard fighters too. Why didn’t Notre Dame name their team after them?

  74. 74
    Inaji

    hrichmon:

    a highly effective fighting people?

    Also, just which people would these be? Which nation? Me, I’m Oglala Lakota. So, I’ll just wait until you let me know just which nation redskins refers to, okay?

  75. 75
    indicus

    @ ChasCPeterson #54 – Actually, my link says EXACTLY that. Trying reading it before pulling the chronically-offended whinefest, asshat.

    If a bunch of Minnesota white people started complaining about the name ‘Vikings’, they would be laughed up to Canada faster than you could imagine. Nobody would give a flying fuck what they thought. Of course the name ‘Redskins’ and the like were originally meant as slurs. A century later we have all grown up. Now its considered an expression of pride and heritage. Which is why, as I and the article I posted say, Native American groups themselves are using it. Grown up, take the term, and turn it into a positive.

    “‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so fucking what.” – Stephen Fry

  76. 76
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Y’know, if I were intending to honour a people by naming summat after them, my first thought would be to ask them if they felt honoured by my action. It’s an add concept, I know. I call it “basic fucking politeness.”

  77. 77
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Take Florida State University, Tallahassee. The mascot of FSU is the Seminole, as represented by “Chief Osceola” (Osceola was an actual person) The cheer is known as the “war chant” (and is a sort of droning ululating noise of the “white people attempting to imitate actual generic-Indian songs”) and is accompanied by a tomahawk chop.

    What separates this from, say, the Atlanta Braves?

    Here’s a few:
    (1) FSU has a scholarship program for Seminole students that they’re very proud of and talk up.
    (2) FSU, officially, is displeased with both the war chant and its accompanying tomahawk chop and says so publicly on a regular basis.
    (3) FSU routinely meets with the Seminole leaders to issue joint statements about how they’re on good terms with each other, FSU projects on the rez, etc.
    (4) Part of that official partnership is in developing the character of “Chief Osceola” – how he’s dressed, what stunts he does, how the actor portraying him must comport himself while in costume, etc, so that the memory of the real Osceola and Seminoles as a whole are not disrespected.

    Perfect? Certainly not. But it comes a hell of a lot closer to the claim of “we’re honoring them” than a lot of other teams.

  78. 78
    Alethea Kuiper-Belt

    I was going to ask about Blackhawks, but I see Caine had it covered at #6. Thanks for the education.

    And when I say I was going to ask, I mean politely. As an ignorant foreigner. Not aggressively whitesplaining about how the manifesto is wrong. Geeze.

  79. 79
    Denverly

    I’d have to admit that I never really thought any of these terms were offensive. That means it’s time to do the checklist in order to tell if I’m full of shit.

    1. Are you a member of the group represented by or on the receiving end of the alleged slur? If no, go to number two. If yes, go to number three.
    2. Is intent magic? If no, go to number four. If yes, go to number five.
    3. Since you are a member of the group represented by or on the receiving end of the alleged slur, do you also possess the uncontested sole opinion of the group? If no, go to number four. If yes, go to number five.
    4. Do you care about the comfort and welfare of others? If no, go to number five. If yes, go to number six.
    5. You are completely full of shit. Go back to number one and try again.
    6. Can you admit you were wrong and change your mind? If no, go to number five. If yes, go to number seven.
    7. Congratulations, you managed to successfully change your mind.

    Sorry, I was full of shit. My bad, thanks for explaining it in a way that I could understand. Opinion successfully altered in light of new evidence.

  80. 80
    Marcus Ranum

    The “Washington Rednecks” has a good ring to it.

  81. 81
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    indicus #75

    Of course the name ‘Redskins’ and the like were originally meant as slurs. A century later we have all grown up.

    Woohoo! Rejoice, folks, for we are living in the Fabled Post-Racist Society. How do we know? Indicus pulled an assertion out of their arse and told us so!

  82. 82
    Anthony K

    Also, learn to read,you dumbass bag of shit knee-jerking conservative privilege-protecting crybaby.

    “Marginalized communities are too often treated monolithically,” said Carter Meland, a professor of American Indian Studies at the University of Minnesota.

    “Stories on the mascot issue always end up exploring whether it is right or it is wrong, respectful or disrespectful,” said Meland, an Ojibwe Indian.

    He believes Indian mascots are disrespectful, but said: “It would be interesting to get a sense of the diversity of opinion within a native community.”

    Those communities vary widely.

    Piece of shit.

  83. 83
    Onamission5

    @indicus #75:

    This editorial was custom written just for you. Do read.

    Ways We Try to Justify Our Traditions: Sports and Beyond

  84. 84
    Rey Fox

    Why is the owner so attached to a derogatory term?

    The owner is a douchebag of much renown. The franchise also has a bit of a history.

  85. 85
    Anthony K

    chronically-offended whinefest, asshat..

    OH NOES! CALAMITY!, SOME PEOPLE WOULD RATHER WE CHANGED THE NAME OF A SPORTS TEAM, BUT THAT’LL END CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT!

    So why not just change it, fuckface, if y’all are too cool to care?

    Answer that, you stupid, useless, illiterate, complete waste of skin.

  86. 86
    Anthony K

    Why is the owner so attached to a derogatory term?

    Ask indicus, since indicus is so invested in not giving a shit.

  87. 87
    Anthony K

    Well, indicus?

    Got some answers, pissface?

  88. 88
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    indicus @ 49:
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/joeflood/how-the-redskins-debate-goes-over-on-an-actual-indian-reserv

    Whatever citation you imagined you saw was probably flawed and wholly irrelevant. It’s like you get offended when other people are offended, and your offense trumps theirs. Fucking a.

  89. 89
    Anthony K

    It’s like you get offended when other people are offended, and your offense trumps theirs.

    Conservatism in a nutshell.

  90. 90
    The Mellow Monkey

    indicus @ 75

    Actually, my link says EXACTLY that. Trying reading it before pulling the chronically-offended whinefest, asshat.

    Do you mean this part?

    In the only recent poll to ask native people about the subject, 90 percent of respondents did not consider the term offensive, although many question the cultural credentials of the respondents.

    So 90% of the people who responded to a poll who may or may not have been NDNs themselves said they didn’t find the term offensive? That’s your cite? Seriously? The poll didn’t ask about tribal affiliation or enrollment or social and cultural and political identity. Just any shmuck claiming to be Indian could answer.

    Considering the absurd number of people have some vague story about their great-grandmother who was a Cherokee princess and married an Irish immigrant and now they identify themselves as Irish American and Indian whenever they find it useful in an argument where they’re told they have white privilege, color me unimpressed. Meanwhile, the Cherokee, Comanche, Oneida and Seminole tribes and the National Congress of American Indians support the lawsuit regarding the name.

    Oh, but some people in a poll said they were Indians and they didn’t care about the name. Golly gee!

  91. 91
    ChasCPeterson

    my link says EXACTLY that. Trying reading it

    Oh, I read it, but OK, I’ll read it again.
    Nope, it does not say that “most Native Americans themselves don’t consider the term offensive.”
    I s’pose you’re referring to this:

    In 2004, the National Annenberg Election Survey asked 768 people who identified themselves as Indian whether they found the name “Washington Redskins” offensive. Almost 90 percent said it did not bother them.

    But then before that it sez this:

    looking across the breadth of Native America — with 2 million Indians enrolled in 566 federally recognized tribes, plus another 3.2 million who tell the Census they are Indian — it’s difficult to tell how many are opposed to the name.

    So yeah, you’re either stupid or dishonest or both.
    And I haven’t whined yet.

  92. 92
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    inducus @ whatever their post was before they were banned and deleted(hopefully):

    “‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so fucking what.” – Stephen Fry

    Oh, fucking joy, bow down to the privileged emotional superiority of the white man who is unaffected by the offense of some silly minority.

  93. 93
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Not long ago, I found myself in the baffling position of agreeing with the conservative pundit George Will.

    He said that if actual Indians are offended by “Redskin,” then the polite thing to do is change the name. He said that arguments of “it hasn’t always been offensive” are pointless – words change in meaning (of course, “redskin” has always been offensive, but whatever). He made an analogy to the word “negro.” Fifty years ago, that was the proper, polite term. Nowadays, it is to be used with great hesitation, if at all.

    Also, indicus: do you understand the concept of “n-word privileges”? A non-Indian person (especially if they’re white) saying “redskin” is not the same as an Indian person saying “redskin.” By the same token, a lesbian can say “dyke”, a gay man can say “faggot”, a Jew can say “kike”, and so on, in a way that someone who is not of that group cannot.

  94. 94
    Anthony K

    I believe indicus, who doesn’t really see a need for the fracas, has left the building, as would be consistent with someone who doesn’t really see a need for the fracas.

    On the other hand, he may return to destroy his own point once again.

  95. 95
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    I am offended by that.’ Well, so fucking what.” – Stephen Fry

    Fry, by the way, was talking in the context of criticism of ideas and the like, not even implying that he meant it as a blanket excuse to spout racist/sexist/ etc claptrap.

  96. 96
    Anthony K

    “Man, why are you people so upset over nothing?”

    C’mon, refesh faster, so I can question their investment again!

    “Seriously, it’s not a big deal.”

    Fuck, forgot something. Hurry up, I gotta post another comment about what a non-issue this is.

    “It’s like you just like to get upset and be offended over nothing.”

    There, I showed those fucking whiners who really doesn’t have a stake in this.

  97. 97
    Anthony K

    Look, indicus: I’ve replaced you.

    Now we really know what ‘irrelevant’ looks like.

  98. 98
    colnago80

    I suggest changing the name of the Washington NFL team to the “Deadskins”, highly appropriate considering their lack of success on the field as of late.

  99. 99
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    Let’s really weight this shit on some scales here.

    How many people would rue the fact that the R*dskins have had their name changed? Who the fuck knows, but the important thing that they all have in common is that they were insensitive enough to the offense state of the minority. Now, they are entitled to being upset that the evil PC thought police were treading on their right to have their “safe spaces” to spout their offensive shit passively removed. But the fact remains that some of the targeted minority, they found it fucking offensive, and they’re the ones who should matter when the fact of its historical maligning of their group, slurring and othering them, used as an excuse to slaughter and rape them, to commit genocide upon them, well that trumps the tears of the boo-hooers whose history includes such grievances as maybe being looked at funny for saying something considered off-color, or boycotted… wah wah wah, what the fuck ever.

  100. 100
    Anthony K

    How many people would rue the fact that the R*dskins have had their name changed?

    Clearly, indicus’ penis would explode right off his groin were that to happen.

  101. 101
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Anthony K

    Clearly, indicus’ penis would explode right off his groin were that to happen.

    Think of it as evolution in action.

  102. 102
    MJP

    When was the last time the United States had a governmental policy advocating for genocide to be committed on Vikings, Irish, or Celts? How many laws and policies currently actively and/or passively discriminate against Vikings, Irish, or Celts? There’s your answer.

    How is it even possible to discriminate against Vikings? They aren’t around anymore.

    If you’re referring to Scandinavians, well, during the heyday of scientific racism, American immigration policy was explicitly designed to favor immigration from Northern Europe.

    Of course, there was discrimination against Irish. But “Celtic” is not a slur.

  103. 103
    The very model of a modern armchair general

    Heck, if you’re looking for an Irish guy to complain about the “Fighting Irish” team, I can do that. The “fighting Irish” is an old stereotype from the 19th century, of Irishmen who were so stupid (and, it is implied, drunk) that they resorted to fisticuffs to settle every dispute. The team logo is a boxing leprechaun. It’s offensive, and I don’t like it…. however, I can afford to not care about it because (a) I am not in America, (b) even if I was, I am white, and I can blend in easily with the privileged majority, so the stereotype doesn’t have the power to hurt me.

  104. 104
    MJP

    Disregard my above post. I misunderstood the intent of the author of the quoted post.

  105. 105
    CaitieCat, getaway driver

    Anthony K, I have to admit as a fan of the sport, far too few can ever stick the landing when they take part in Competitive Flounce. The standards of international competition have really gone down the shitter. I heard the IOC was going to add Synchronized Flouncing to the Summer Games, but they’d have to take out “Some Rich Guy Sport” in its place. We fans have to fight harder for representation at the top levels, if we ever want to see Flounce take its place on the world stage.

    BETTER TROLLS PLEASE, INTERNETZ!

  106. 106
    Anthony K

    Thanks, The very model of a modern armchair general. Well put.

    I suspect many North Americans of Irish descent don’t actually have a clue as to the history of discrimination against the Irish in NA, only trotting it out to play “But my people were oppressed too!” when it comes time to shut other marginalised groups down.

  107. 107
    Anthony K

    But CaitieCat, he has to, otherwise he sabotages his whole point about “looking for something to be offended about”.

  108. 108
    Trickster Goddess

    I think “Washington Pigskins” is a perfectly appropriate name for a football team.

  109. 109
    CaitieCat, getaway driver

    But Anthony K, they dropped the Degree of Hypocrisy calculation from the judging procedures a few years ago, remember, when there was that burst of interest in the sport from Tea Party types? They were finding their Hypocrisy Detectors were going off so often, it was slowing down the tournament significantly to constantly be updating the Degree. Also, they were burning out IronyRed cameras left right and centre.

  110. 110
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    Clearly, indicus’ penis would explode right off his groin were that to happen.

    Yes, the scent of machismo is all over this “debate.” The theme: Those offended should just man the fuck up and get over it, because Whitey Bigdick, who never needed a guv’nment handout, nosiree, and managed to overcome insurmountable odds against such discriminatory practices as pay equality and affirmative action to get where he is, well he says they should be thankful that all they get is othered and mocked, whereas ol’ Whitey, he’s gotta put his boots on every day and get to work, unlike some of those other people, y’know? And it’s only by the great power of the golden testicles which he possesses that he’s able to continue to do so, even in the face of such great odds and adv’rsity. And how the fuck dare we take his one remaining vestige of Bigdickedness away from his fav-o-rite pasttime, as that would shrivel up those golden jewels of his, and all the other Bigdick relatives of his would wither up the same. Woe unto the Bigdicks! Woe, indeed.

  111. 111
    ChasCPeterson

    throwaway’s link @#88 is well worth reading.

  112. 112
    Endorkened

    I do hope someday we’ll be able to fix the Blackhawks. It’s not respectful now–but it COULD be. Black Hawk was freaking badass–we should be able to find some way to keep the name (maybe with proper punctuation…) that doesn’t piss people off.

  113. 113
    Marcus Ranum

    I think we should name the washington football team “The Whining Oligarchs” — that shouldn’t offend anyone that matters.

  114. 114
    Marcus Ranum

    The “Washington Offended Majority” would be a good name for a team.

  115. 115
    Inaji

    Jonathan:

    Black Hawk was freaking badass–we should be able to find some way to keep the name (maybe with proper punctuation…) that doesn’t piss people off.

    Oh hey, maybe when you magically transform into oθaakiiwaki, you can fix that.

  116. 116
    Jadehawk

    A century later we have all grown up.

    oh yes. we totally have. which is why American Indians aren’t murdered by whites at an absurdly high rate; which is why republicans didn’t almost block the passage of VAWA because part of it was meant to actually help Indian women get justice against the white men who raped them; which is why the racist monument that explicitly excludes indigenous people from “mankind” has been removed from it’s prominent place of honor in Washington D.C. and placed in a museum in the “American holocausts” section. [/sarc]

    Which is why, as I and the article I posted say, Native American groups themselves are using it.

    you are ignorant to the bone, but still think you have anything of value to say. how very pathetic.
    here’s a tiny lesson for you: reclaiming language is something the oppressed group does; at no point does such reclaiming entitle the dominant culture to the use of the word. That’s why white people still don’t get to say that n-word they so like, no matter how many black people use it among themselves. Same goes for all other slurs. So until the team in question becomes entirely Indian (ownership, employment AND fanbase), it’s not part of reclamation but of oppression. simple as that.

  117. 117
    Marcus Ranum

    Let’s name them “The Washington Proconsuls”

    it *rings*

  118. 118
    Rutee Katreya

    I do hope someday we’ll be able to fix the Blackhawks. It’s not respectful now–but it COULD be. Black Hawk was freaking badass–we should be able to find some way to keep the name (maybe with proper punctuation…) that doesn’t piss people off.

    Doubtful.

  119. 119
    Marcus Ranum

    Perhaps “The Washington Stark Fist of Removal” would work

  120. 120
    ChasCPeterson

    We wouldn’t want DC-are football fans to suffer too drastic and abrupt a change.
    So I suggest the “Washington Fleshtones”.

  121. 121
    Inaji

    Chas:

    So I suggest the “Washington Fleshtones”.

    Hee. Now I’m thinking of when (not too long ago) Crayola re-named that pesky ‘flesh’ colour crayon.

  122. 122
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    How inappropriate would the “Washington Palefaces” be?

  123. 123
    carlie

    People who are complaining:

    Have you ever had someone make up a pet nickname for you, and they keep on using it even though you hate it and tell them that all the time, but they say “It’s because I like you!” and keep doing it? Know how you hate that?

    There you go, that might give you a little insight.

    Now imagine that that person’s ancestors all killed your ancestors while also calling them that “pet name”, and you’ll be a little closer.

    Now, imagine that you’re still being shat on by that person, and every piece of society that person built is rigged against you, and some idiot walks up to you and asks you if that pet name bothers you. In the grand scheme of things, given what all else you’re dealing with from that asshole, you might say eh, whatever. That still doesn’t make the pet name ok, or any less of a sting.

  124. 124
    The Mellow Monkey

    Chas

    So I suggest the “Washington Fleshtones”.

    Caine

    Now I’m thinking of when (not too long ago) Crayola re-named that pesky ‘flesh’ colour crayon.

    We’ll ease into it. After the Fleshtones come the Peaches.

  125. 125
    hrichmon

    I seem to have been well answered. The reason we do not consider the name of the Washington team a respectful tribute (and I did not say ‘so shut up’) is that the name is offensive to many people. Someone mentioned the naming of the Notre Dame University teams – they are not called ‘Micks’, however they are referred to as the Fighting Irish. Is that OK? Would the name ‘Fighting Native Americans’ be acceptable for the Washington team? Or the Fighting Lakota Sioux? But these are peoples of the northern plains, perhaps a Native American nation native to the Washington D.C. area?

  126. 126
    Inaji

    hrichmon, are you *trying* to be an offensive asshole? Because you are well succeeding.

    Would the name ‘Fighting Native Americans’ be acceptable for the Washington team?

    Is the team comprised of Indians? Is the owner Indian? Are the majority fan base Indian? No? Golly, there’s your answer.

    Or the Fighting Lakota Sioux?

    So, you’re just blissfully unaware of the situation with UND, eh? I suggest you shut up before you swallow yourself whole.

    But these are peoples of the northern plains, perhaps a Native American nation native to the Washington D.C. area?

    What the fuck do you know about Plains nations, dipshit? You think we’re all Sioux peoples, right? Do you have a clue about Sioux? Let me guess: no. How about all the names of the Plains tribes? Let me guess: no.

    Fuck off, you flaming pimple on the asshole of humanity. Go find a way to “honour” white people.

  127. 127
    Jadehawk

    hrichmon, your questions have already been answered in the links provided by people. go read them.

  128. 128
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    I would only ever like to see indigenous names reappropriated by the indigenous or descendants themselves, or done with appropriate support and approval from the indigenous people locally.

    The way it is now, the taking it upon one’s self to “honor”, is just misappropriation played off as a surprise gift to peoples suffering displacement from their native lands in the midst of a system which does not benefit them due to the inequity of the past. Well, way to honor in the least meaningful and most pompous assholish way possible!

  129. 129
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    Misappropriation should be appropriation.

    Wasn’t the stupid Fighting Irish thing already answered for you, hrichmon, by a few other comments? The group targeted with the slur and the association with a negative stereotype labelled themselves, and that’s a pretty good way to defuse the power the words have to other a marginalized or minority group. I’m all for that, so I’m all for the name. So why the fuck should we be: A) up in arms over it or B) stop caring about the teams which didn’t reappropriate, rather capitalized on the negative stereotypes for themselves?

  130. 130
    wyobio

    So if whitesplaining is a thing, is redsplaining a thing too? Of course, that’s horribly racist ….
    Also, if someone’s religious sensibilities are offended, that’s stupid and must be ignored. In fact, let’s *try* to offend them. Whereas we must all immediately rise up and fight the evil that offended someone’s racial/cultural sensibilities! And better no-one disagree or we’ll F-carpetbomb them!

    Hypocrisy much, horde?

  131. 131
    ChasCPeterson

    you’re out of your league here, wyobio.

  132. 132
    carlie

    Well, way to honor in the least meaningful and most pompous assholish way possible!

    Exactly. You want to “honor” them? Give them the fucking support they need and were promised but were never delivered on. Stop stealing their children. Naming a sports team after them, when the team payroll is more than the assets of several reservations put together, is no honor.

    ” F-carpetbomb” ? Is that a pattern? Ooo, that would be a great carpet for the Lounge pub – all variations of “fuck you” written out on the carpet in fancy fonts.

  133. 133
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    wyobio@130

    So if whitesplaining is a thing, is redsplaining a thing too? Of course, that’s horribly racist ….

    If the conditions for whitesplaining were mirrored in the conditions for redsplaining, that would indeed be a thing. But whites hold the power and the privilege, so your hypothetical is just a casual attempt at a false equivalence then, isn’t it?

    Also, if someone’s religious sensibilities are offended, that’s stupid and must be ignored. In fact, let’s *try* to offend them.

    You are not born with your religious beliefs. Or any other ridiculous beliefs you have. Goddamn, is your whole post going to be nothing but false equivalence? I am disappoint.

    Whereas we must all immediately rise up and fight the evil that offended someone’s racial/cultural sensibilities! And better no-one disagree or we’ll F-carpetbomb them!

    Oh no! Looks like we have tone trolling as well! Well how ’bout that?

    Hypocrisy much, horde?

    Such a weak charge given the preceding lackluster attempt at a fucking point.

  134. 134
    Graculus

    Tangental as all fuck, but vaguely connected to Caine’s @ 126, “Redskin” was a reference to a specific nation, originally, the now extinct Beothuk, who were the first indigenous people that modern Europeans ran into, & used a lot of red ochre on themselves. No, they didn’t live anywhere near Washington, either.

  135. 135
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Chigau #38
    Washington used to have a team called the Senators as well.
    hrichmon
    Damn, you’re an asshole.
    indicus
    Fuck off already, why don’t you?
    wyobio
    Stop. Just fucking stop. Seriously, you haven’t got the first fucking clue what you’re talking about, and any more words you type are just going to make you look a bigger asshole than you did with your first post.
    RE: The Vikings, since people keep bringing them up.
    I feel I should point out that Vikings were never an ethnic group, and the professional descriptor hasn’t been used for about 1000 years now.

  136. 136
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    (From throwaways link @88):

    The Oneida Nation is headquartered in upstate New York, near the 93% white town of Cooperstown,New York, home of the Baseball Hall of Fame and,until recently,the Cooperstown High Redskins. After student complaints last year,the school board voted to get rid of the name, eventually replacing it with “Hawkeyes.”To help pay for new equipment and uniforms,Halbritter and the Oneida Nation,which has a reservation about an hour away,donated $10,000 to the school.

    “The Cooperstown kids really inspired me and many others,” says Halbritter,“because on their own these kids did something that these billionaire owners and some writers aren’t willing to do.

    Indicus-see that? At the urging of student complaints (likely to have been mostly white) a predominately white school board changed the offensive team name. So it is possible for non Indians to agree such names are offensive and work to change them. Now, no one is offended.
    Why is empathy so difficult for you?
    I get it, you are not a member of an oppressed group. So what is your point here? To fight for the continued use of names and images thst many people find derogatory and offensive? Why? Are you so wedded to the name of sports teams that the outrage of oppressed people-and their supporters-somehow pales in comparison? Your life will not be affected if any of the teams change their names. The lives of Indians in this country will be made just a little bit better by eliminating the derogatory names and images.

    Or to make it easy for you: why are you supporting racism?
    (No need to answer. How about you just not contribute again until you learn how to give a shit about others and think outside your privileged life)?

  137. 137
    csue

    We’ve said it before, and we’ll say it again:

    Just change the team logo to a potato.

  138. 138
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    wyobio:
    Someone ate a bowl of False Equivalence for breakfast I see.

    Please do get back with us when offending someone’s religious sensibilities is in any way equal to continuing to use names and images of a derogatory nature even after the oppressed people they offend have asked you to stop.

  139. 139
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    For those who do not understand why Indians would be offended by sports team imagery, please click Chas’ link @65.

  140. 140
    Endorkened

    Caine @115:
    I mean we, as in, we all. The Sauk people. The city of Chicago. Figuring out how to rejigger things so as to actually honor an awesome person who stood up to the conquering hordes of Manifest Destiny assnozzles, instead of just caricaturing him.

    It’s been done before–somebody mentioned further up the thread how FSU reworked all their stuff. Worked with the actual Seminole Nation (at least the ones who live in Florida), ditched the ridiculous minstrel mascot, and now after their new mascot is done… being a horse, I guess… they have an undead Seminole war leader ride out on a non-anthropomorphic horse and throw a freaking flaming spear into the middle of the field. That, miss, is stupendously badass–the only way I can think of making that more awesome is if he impaled a little effigy of Andrew Jackson.

    I get the whole appropriation angle that makes your standard Whiteyville Fightin’ Subhuman Savages Who Need White Jesus morally repulsive, I really do–but this is one example that deviates from that, and I think it’s worth emulating in some cases, because we don’t have enough reminders that we’ve been an evil empire all along. This is, to keep with the analogy people have been using all through the thread, like talking it out with Michael Higgins (though admittedly not getting Peter Robinson’s opinion on the matter) and replacing the Notre Dame leprechaun with a dude playing Cú Chulainn.

  141. 141
    anuran

    Heck, if you’re looking for an Irish guy to complain about the “Fighting Irish” team, I can do that. The “fighting Irish” is an old stereotype from the 19th century, of Irishmen who were so stupid (and, it is implied, drunk) that they resorted to fisticuffs to settle every dispute. The team logo is a boxing leprechaun. It’s offensive, and I don’t like it…. however, I can afford to not care about it because (a) I am not in America, (b) even if I was, I am white, and I can blend in easily with the privileged majority, so the stereotype doesn’t have the power to hurt me.

    It does bear remembering. I didn’t realize that “Paddy Wagon” got its name from the wagon you stuffed “Paddy” the Irishman into to take him to jail. Back then you wouldn’t have been White. Well, the Irish were sometimes called “White N**gers”, so I guess you would have sorta kinda been.

  142. 142
    carlie

    Figuring out how to rejigger things so as to actually honor an awesome person who stood up to the conquering hordes of Manifest Destiny assnozzles, instead of just caricaturing him.

    Make a state university scholarship fund for Indian students in his name, maybe? Wing of a hospital? The name of a group of millionaires throwing a ball around is not an honor.

  143. 143
    Endorkened

    carlie @142: That, right there, is an awfully good point. Here I’m buying into the idea that having a sports team named after you CAN be an honor–hell, I was just asking somebody IRL the other day why people are proud of “local” teams that are owned by out-of-state bazillionaires, sponsored by transnational corporations, and staffed by people who in some cases barely even speak English. It’s all a scam.

  144. 144
    Rutee Katreya

    So if whitesplaining is a thing, is redsplaining a thing too? Of course, that’s horribly racist ….

    Hey, some self awareness!

  145. 145
    Ibis3, Let's burn some bridges

    Jonathan @140

    A “badass” appropriation is still an appropriation. It’s a bad idea for the legitimate cultures of peoples to be turned into caricatures for sports and entertainment spectacles. It is demeaning.

    Also

    That, miss

    Really?? You think it’s appropriate to infantalize and condescend to any of the women here? You think that will help your argument? Fuck.

    As for the Blackhawks, why not just change the logo to a bird if they want to keep the name? Then it wouldn’t be appropriation, a slur, or anything else harmful. Washington and Cleveland should just change their names, logos, and mascots entirely.

    Aside: Goddesses of Sky and Earth, the racists are out in full force today aren’t they?

  146. 146
    PZ Myers

    I have to ask…why is it so goddamned important for some of my fellow white men to be validated in their use of racist epithets?

    And could you stop doing it in my threads on my blog? Assholes.

  147. 147
    Endorkened

    Infantilizing? How the blazing rat fuck is miss infantilizing? It’s a term of address! How can a term of address be condescending?!

  148. 148
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    Jonathan, der Ewige Noobe

    “Miss” is a term used for unmarried women. You don’t know the marital status of the woman you’re addressing.

    Also, it’s considered polite to address the person you’re talking to by name.

    Also, “That, miss, …” adds a lecturing tone normally used when talking to children.

  149. 149
    ekwhite

    Chas@120:

    How about the “Washington Honkies?” The Fleshtones sounds like an ’80s New Wave band.

    Seriously, bring back the name Washington Senators. That name actually has a history. As far as Fighting Irish, yes that name *is* offensive to some of us with Irish ancestry, but Redskins is much worse. The Irish equivalent would be the Boston Paddies, or the Notre Dame Fighting Micks.

  150. 150
    Endorkened

    Jeez and crackers… this mouth-noises stuff is complicated. I can’t wait until we’re all floating gray icosahedrons who communicate in mythic engrams.

    Okay… that does make sense.

    Caine, ma’am, I’m sorry I made any assumptions about your status, though they were implicit in my speech rather than conveyed out of intent to do so. I tend to pepper my speech with honorifics to try and seem less threatening–it’s a survival strategy that’s never gotten me in trouble before, but there’s a first time for everything.

  151. 151
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Jonathan:
    To avoid a derail, please go read about the use of the title Miss.
    In the future, if you have to refer to a woman by a title, ‘Ms’ would be better.
    Their name or nym is also appropriate.

  152. 152
    Endorkened

    Gotcha. Thank you, sorry. Always thought it was basically synonymous with ‘sir’ or ‘ma’am.’ I’ll watch myself from now on.

  153. 153
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    <OT>
    Sorry, yeah. I should have mentioned the Miss/Ms thing too. In my defence, it’s 3 AM here, and I’m dog-tired but can’t sleep.
    </OT>

  154. 154
    Inaji

    Caine, ma’am,

    Oh FFS, stuff a godsdamn sock in your mouth and sit on your fucking fingers, will ya, MisterSirAsshole?

    If you can’t manage to use my name, Jonathan, and only my name, don’t fucking call me anything.

  155. 155
    What a Maroon, oblivious

    OK, I realize that my rant is a bit off-topic, so let me start by saying that the use of derogatory nicknames for sports teams, especially given our history of genocidal policy towards Indians, is clearly wrong and racist. I really can’t fathom any argument to the contrary.

    Washington R*****ns could become the Bureaucrats, as what is more scary than a bureaucrat.

    Stop that. I live on a block full of “bureaucrats”. These are dedicated, smart, hardworking people with jobs in Defense, State, Treasury, and EPA who haven’t been able to go to work for much or all of the last three weeks because of the idiocy of Congress. These are people with mortgages and young children who haven’t been sure when their next paycheck would come because of the clowns that the rest of the US sends here. Most of them could easily find cushy jobs in the private sector, but they’re dedicated to their work, and they don’t deserve to be treated with this kind of cheap cynicism.
    /rant

  156. 156
    Endorkened

    Sorry! I’m sorry! I was trying to be polite! It just seemed overly familiar, I didn’t want to seem forward! *fetal position*

  157. 157
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    kayden (@70):

    I recall when the Washington Bullets changed their names to the Wizards. Not understanding why the same cannot be done re the Washington Redskins.

    Because basketball is merely a sport, but football is a fucking religion, as I learned growing up in Texas.

    SRSLY, I can’t understand why this is even an argument. While I’d be happy to see all indigenous nicknames go away, Redskins is uniquely indefensible: It’s at least plausible, at a stretch, to imagine defending as neutral names of nations/tribes (e.g., are Seminoles and Sioux that much different than Americans or Canadiens?) or functional/military titles (Chiefs and Braves vs. Generals and Knights… or for that matter, Oilers and Astro[naut]s, speaking of Texas).

    But it seems to me impossible to imagine Redskins — no matter how hard you squint at it — as anything other than a racial slur. Even if it was something else in its dusty fucking history, or even if 100 percent of Native Americans thought it was just peachy, it still characterizes a whole class of people based on skin color, and that just can’t possibly fly here in the 21st fuckin’ century!

    It may be moot, though: I predict USAnian football will be extinct within a decade or two, owing to the emerging science on traumatic brain injury, and nobody’s going to name a soccer or rugby team Redskins.

  158. 158
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    you’re out of your league here, wyobio.

    way

  159. 159
    PZ Myers

    Rome had gladiatorial games for what, 600 years? And you think football will go away in a few decades thanks to a few namby-pamby ‘traumatic brain injuries’.

    You know it could also evolve into a game of armed combat, instead, especially since the owners all seem to be Republican assholes.

  160. 160
    Endorkened

    PZ @159,

    This. Boxing’s become MORE dangerous over time–heck, MMA is safer.

  161. 161
    Inaji

    Jonathan:

    Sorry! I’m sorry!

    Apology accepted. Now, please, Jonathan, please, it’s just Caine. It’s fine, it’s my name, I even answer to it in offline life. Using it is in no way disrespectful. If I wanted to be addressed by an honorific, that would be my nym, eh? ;)

  162. 162
    anuran

    PZ Myers: Norman Spinrad wrote a story forty years ago called “The National Pastime”. It was yet another attempt at a football league to compete with the NFL. But this time they had a marketing genius. He got rid of the armor and most of the penalties and let the participants punch each other. Then he based the teams on demographics. There was an All-Blond Aryan “American Supermen”, a Latino team, a Black team, a Gay team, a Biker team and the always-stoned Psychedelic Stompers.

    It’s really very near-fetched

  163. 163
    Inaji

    Bill Dauphin:

    (e.g., are Seminoles and Sioux that much different than Americans or Canadiens?)

    Yes, it’s different. Very fucking different. For one thing, ‘Sioux’ is not an autonym. Did you bother to read the thread, Bill? How about the articles people linked? Try clicking on the link in #88 and try to learn something.

  164. 164
    anuran

    #160 Johnathan, der Erwige Noob

    This. Boxing’s become MORE dangerous over time–heck, MMA is safer.

    It’s not that surprising. In boxing you spend half an hour getting your brains battered out. It only stops if you’ve been beaten to the point where you can’t stand up any longer or the clock runs out. The wraps and tape and heavy gloves turn the hands into clubs with which you can hit the other guy in the head as hard as you can push that fist through the air.

    In MMA an awful lot of bouts end with a lock or choke. If you’re in an untenable submission you submit, and it’s over with nobody damaged. A lot of the deadlier strikes like the elbow to the head have been eliminated or severely restricted. The gloves are much lighter, so you cannot strike the head full force for minutes on end; you end up with more facial contusions, fewer concussions.

  165. 165
    Inaji

    anuran @ 164, completely off topic. If you wish to continue, take it to thunderdome.

  166. 166
    CaitieCat, getaway driver

    anuran, OT, but thank you, I’d been thinking of that story, but couldn’t think of enough details to locate it. I think it hit me when I was playing GTA IV recently, the memory of the story.

    Apologies for the OT, everyone, just pleased and grateful at the answer throwing itself in front of me so soon after I’d been thinking about the question.

  167. 167
    Endorkened

    Caine @161:
    Thank you very much, Caine. I do try. It’s a little harder for me than most. Thank you for not stabbing me.

    anuran @162 and 164:
    [OT]Exactly what I’m talking about. Also, why is Norman Spinrad always right about everything?[/OT]

  168. 168
    Graculus

    Bill Dauphin @ 157

    oh “Braves” is bad. Just not *as* bad. No nation ever used a term that could even remotely translate to that in English. The word itself is a caricature.

  169. 169
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Anuran #141

    It does bear remembering. I didn’t realize that “Paddy Wagon” got its name from the wagon you stuffed “Paddy” the Irishman into to take him to jail.

    I have actually latterly encountered the (unlikely) claim that the etymology refers to the wagon being full of ‘Paddys’ when it arrived, due to the large number of Irish immigrants who found work in the police. While there were quite a lot of Irish people in the police departments of several major metropolitan areas, that particular term is of a more derogotoray origin. The aforesaid Irish presence in law enforcement did, however, produce the now somewhat archaic term ‘Shamus’ (from the Irish given name Séamus) meaning a detective.

    Back then you wouldn’t have been White. Well, the Irish were sometimes called “White N**gers”, so I guess you would have sorta kinda been.

    It also bears remembering that anti-Irish bigotry is no longer an active cornerstone of U.S. culture and policy. The same cannot be said of anti-Indian bigotry by a very long way

    Ibis3145

    As for the Blackhawks, why not just change the logo to a bird if they want to keep the name? Then it wouldn’t be appropriation, a slur, or anything else harmful.

    I noticed on the Wikipedia page linked to earlier that the Peoria Chiefs now use firefighter imagery and logos.

    What a Maroon 155
    Agreed, although I’m not so employed.

  170. 170
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Thank you for not stabbing me.

    Not cool. Please do not do that.

  171. 171
    left0ver1under

    In Canadian university sports, McGill University’s team is called the “Redmen”. The origin of the name (1877) was the colour of the teams’ uniforms, not a First Nations reference (see also: Syracuse Orangemen). In 1947, the US-born football coach starting using First Nations imagery. In 1995, however, the university dropped all such imagery and reverted to the original meaning of the name, and still call the teams Redmen. The Edmonton Eskimos of the CFL likely don’t get as much negative press and pressure over their name because the league’s level of visibility, but it will come eventually.

    One problem that may create resistance to renaming teams is greed, and I don’t mean the costs of changing uniforms and merchandise. New teams and teams changing names are running out of options because existing teams have filed “copyrights” on mascots and nicknames, preventing others teams from using them, even when they sports are unrelated. Existing, established teams in various sports, even some within the same sport or league, have multiple teams with the same mascot. Several NCAA teams are named “wolfpack”, “huskies”, and “bulldogs” in US college sports, including teams that play each other. The NFL and CFL have teams named “lions”, and the CFL used to have two teams named roughriders (one with a space, one without).

    With copyrights, though, expansion teams and teams changing names may be barred by different teams in different leagues unrelated to their own. Obscure and ludicrous nicknames don’t appeal to fans (e.g. “magic”, “wild”, “raptor”, “blue jacket”, “predator”, “wizard”), but copyrights are limiting their choices. MLS was able to steal European soccer naming to avoid this, but they sound silly (e.g. Real “ree-al” Salt Lake? DC United?). I’d bet a team from Olympia, Washington would get sued by the IOC if it called itself the Olympics or Olympias. The IOC have sued everyone who used the name except for Olympic Paint, which had the name before the copyright was filed. Even people have tried to copyright their own names to prevent others from renaming themselves, which Kareem Abdul-Jabbar did to Karim Abdul-Jabbar.

    “Generals” would be a good rename for Washington in the NFL, but the company running the Harlem Globetrotters would probably object to that. Just as likely, Washington fans wouldn’t want to be associated with an all-white team whose record is 1-and-whatever in sixty years of play.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Generals#Beating_the_Harlem_Globetrotters

    Some nicknames can be almost as offensive as racist names. Street violence was the reason Washington of the NBA dropped “bullets”. Now if only the Calgary team in the WHL would drop “Hitmen” – I don’t care if it’s named after the professional wrestler who owns the team, it’s obscene.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c0/Calgary_Hitmen_logo.svg/500px-Calgary_Hitmen_logo.svg.png

    Ahem. Excuse me for the length of that.

  172. 172
    Inaji

    Graculus:

    No nation ever used a term that could even remotely translate to that in English. The word itself is a caricature.

    Indeed. Something else that’s being completely ignored is language. Each nation has it’s own language, even when closely related. It’s yet another pointer that highlights the insistence on erasing Indians completely. Oh, hey, what’s the problem with one English word that covers X amount of Indians? Tribes? Nations? Oh, who cares about that? Well, Indians do. This half Oglala Lakota woman cares.

    There’s this insistence of making Indians generic, one size fits all. Things aren’t much better when it goes specific, but the making whole cultures generic, using a language (English) which was used to proffer a load of lies, time after time? Not good, and it’s disheartening to see all this shit slide right past white peoples. Another thing which keeps getting passed over, it’s not just the names/logos/mascots – it’s the appalling and disgusting behaviour on the part of non-Indian fans. For fuck’s sake, anyone who has ever watched a game, even once, will see non-Indian people doing “the chop” – explain how that’s respectful, or honoring Indian people, or how it’s not really bigotry in action. How about all the non-Indian fans donning fake regalia or painting their faces in “war paint”?

  173. 173
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    In Illinois, there are still people who are upset that “Chief Illiniwek” no longer does his dance at University Of Illinois sporting events. These people have much better things to be concerned about.

  174. 174
    A. Noyd

    Jonathan (#140)

    Figuring out how to rejigger things so as to actually honor an awesome person who stood up to the conquering hordes of Manifest Destiny assnozzles, instead of just caricaturing him.

    I don’t think white people will ever have the right to “honor” such a person. How can it be anything but an empty honor when we whites succeded at manifest destiny and continue to reap the benefits of it while doing worse than nothing to make up for it to Native Americans?

    (#147)

    How can a term of address be condescending?!

    Yeah, it’s not like terms of address are culturally-loaded status markers or anything.

  175. 175
    Anthony K

    Seriously though, change the fucking name of the goddamn Notre Dame Fucking Fighting Fucking Irish. It is not equivalent to ‘Redskins’, but it’s not without problems, as The very model of a modern armchair general pointed out.

    Plus, we’ll have the added benefit of not having to hear it as some sort of magic ‘gotcha’ every time the issue of native appropriations in stupid fucking sports teams comes up.

    You’re ostensibly at a game to watch athletes compete. So what if every third team is the Wolverines and every fourth the Titans? Pick some names that aren’t Disney characters of actual peoples who are still

    Let it go. Change the name. Civilization isn’t going to fall. The libertarians are still going to go Galt and live in Peter Thiel’s magic freedom island paradise.

  176. 176
    Anthony K

    Oops.

    “Disney characters of actual peoples who are still being systematically discriminated against.”

    With that typo, I must to bed.

  177. 177
    torbertin

    New Zealand’s international rugby team, the All Blacks (named after their uniform color) performs a Haka prior to the start of their matches. Generally, a third to a half of their players are Pacific Islanders and Maori, while the others are whites. In 2006, the team wrote a new Haka (traditionally, they performed ‘Ka Mate’ — http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tdMCAV6Yd0Y&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtdMCAV6Yd0Y. /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka_Mate. )’, the construction of which was advised by dance and language experts from the various tribes in the region.

    I say this to show what showing respect for native cultures in a sports team looks like. Those who claim that naming a team ‘The Redskins’ gives respect to native cultures are way off base,

  178. 178
    torbertin

    More correctly, Maori and non- Maori Pacific Islanders. Tired.

  179. 179
    anuran

    169 Dalillama, Schmott Guy
    Precisely. A few generations ago the Irish were one of the more hated and despised minorities. That changed, so a lot of the signifiers of anti-Irish bigotry have less bite now than they did then. For First Nations groups who get, at best, malign neglect it is much more immediate and significant.

  180. 180
    anuran

    torbertin: You’re right. That is the right way to do indigenous cultures in sports with respect.

    Besides, the Haka is pretty damned impressive. It’s what Death Metal wanks off to and wants to be when it grows up. And what does the other team do besides stand there and look stoic?

  181. 181
    ChasCPeterson

    Notre Dame could go with the Fighting Leprechauns and keep the logo.
    Or the Fighting Papists, I kind of like that one.

  182. 182
    unclefrogy

    you know I been reading this and it sounds so much like some other threads that have gotten this kind of response especially in tone and stubbornness. Almost always it has very little to do with the indignant fool doing the complaining.

    It seems to reduce to don’t tell me what to do and by extension not those others over there who said things that don’t bother them any. and they identify with even if it is not reciprocated in the least
    all a bunch of anti-social misanthropic bullies who if society acted the way they spout off about would devolve into a brutal anarchy. The only reason we are not is the resistance of good people.
    I like it when they show up it is the contrast of their ignorant mostly emotional display against the reason, evidence and experience of the others here that helps remind me to keep going forward!

    I like the idea of the Washington pigskins the mascot could be a pig running around in a barrel.
    uncle frogy

  183. 183
    chigau (違う)

    I like “The Fighting Papists”.
    but the potential logo is already fuelling nightmares.

  184. 184
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    Caine and Graculus (@various):

    To be clear, I wasn’t defending those other categories of nickname, and I apologize for seeming to have done so. (Probably I should’ve put my hypothetically barely plausible examples in scare quotes.) As I said, I’d be happy to see all such nicknames go away (and happier yet to leave it to people with direct personal standing to determine what’s offensive); my point was that (it seems to me) Redskins is orders of magnitude less defensible, because it seems impossible to even try to construct it as anything other than a frank racial slur.

    IOW, I could almost, sorta’, kinda’ understand a 150+ comment (when I posted) argument over, for instance, Braves, but it baffles me that anyone would spend even one comment defending Redskins.

  185. 185
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    PZ (@159):

    Rome had gladiatorial games for what, 600 years? And you think football will go away in a few decades thanks to a few namby-pamby ‘traumatic brain injuries’.

    Yeah, I’m not suggesting that our cultural appetite for brain-killing violence will go away anytime soon. But football, unlike boxing, is a largely middle class sport that requires large numbers of people who can afford (or whose school district and/or college can afford) expensive equipment. This is a broad generalization, but most of the people who can afford to play at all don’t need to sacrifice their brains for a desperate ticket out of poverty.

    More to the point, their parents don’t have to “destroy the village to save the village.” I think football will become extinct because it will eventually become clear that it’s impossible to play the game at nearly any level without incurring permanent brain damage… and at that point, parents (even in godforsaken Texas, eventually) will stop allowing their sons[1] to even start playing. Without a steady flow of kids from youth leagues, middle schools, and high schools, big time college and pro football will become unsustainable. That’s if liability concerns don’t drive public schools out of the football biz even sooner.

    I’m actually a fan (being in marching band from high school into college will either make you a fan or make you despise the game!), but I find myself questioning whether it’s ethical to even watch this game, especially given that the most visually arresting, entertaining plays are often also the most damaging ones. I think this may be the last season I can bring myself to watch.

    The other major sport that relies heavily on collisions[2] between players — ice hockey — also has a serious concussion problem, but I think it would be possible to ban all hitting (i.e., not just fighting, but also checking) in hockey and still have a game people would watch (maybe not a certain segment of hockey fans, but IMHO most would come around). But I’m afraid there’s no way to “fix” football… except, perhaps, by replacing it with soccer or something else.

    ***
    [1] Yes, I know some girls and women also play football, but so far it’s a tiny number, and I’m hoping it stays that way: In this case, I’d rather see gender equity achieved by reducing the number of boys and men playing than by opening a deadly game up to girls and women. I feel the same way about boxing, but that horse is already out of the barn, apparently.

    [2] The thing about football is not so much that it’s rough, or that you can get injured; it’s that the game is inherently based on players colliding — almost all of them, on almost every play — with each other or the ground. It’s no accident that “jarring” is such a commonly used word in descriptions of play… and jarring appears to be inescapably bad for the brain.

  186. 186
    ekwhite

    Bill Dauphin @184:

    It’s pretty damned hard to defend the use of *Braves* as not racist also. Anyone who has seen “Chief Knockahoma” or has seen the fans do the “tomahawk chop” has a pretty good idea of how racist the name is. The name also doesn’t have a thing to do with Atlanta.

    BTW: I would like to see American football fade away in general, as you have suggested, because of the serious trauma caused by the sport. We could use a little less testosterone fueled violence as entertainment in this country.

  187. 187
    cubist

    In the spirit of “when life gives you lemons, make lemonade”…

    Sports teams aren’t going to disappear. Mascots of sports teams aren’t going to disappear. And as was pointed out upthread, there are copyright issues which can constrain the range of available choices.

    So.

    Approach this from an Intellectual Property point of view. Some sports team wants to name themselves after WhicheverTribe? Fine. The lawyers for WhicheverTribe will be happy to confer with the sports team’s owners, and let them know the terms and conditions under which they will be allowed to make use of WhicheverTribe’s image & name & “look and feel” & yada yada yada—and, of course, what sort of licensing fee the sports team will have to pay WhicheverTribe for the privilege of making use of this particular constellation of Intellectual Property. Ideally, the sports team gets their mascot; the directly-affected First Nations group gets money and retains control over how they’re portrayed in this particular slice of the mass media.

    Not sure how this proposal would work out in practice, but I figured it was worth bringing up for the Horde to eviscerate as needful/appropriate.

  188. 188
    Louis

    People, people, you really are all missing the point. You need an outside, objective perspective. Like that of an English-ish-man.

    Since these are all American teams they should all be called the *City* GunTotingRacistFatReligiousIgnoramuses?

    After all, that’s just honouring a completely accurate assessment of American culture, right? Right? There’s no actual problem with my naming is there? Now don’t go getting all emotional on me.

    I’m just using facts you know.* There’s no actual difference between cities because America is just this big homogeneous morass of unenlightened savages {haughty Euro-sniff} and it is entirely the place of a British European to appropriate a specific, perhaps even bigoted or unfair, set of terms for Americans and apply it to their sports teams. After all, you people are too emotionally invested in this and likely to go looking for offence or become hysterical. It’s better that I tell you how appropriate my naming of your sports teams is. You can’t be trusted to name your teams or evaluate their appropriateness.**

    Don’t go looking for offence and calling me an anti American bigot. Some of my best friends are American, and they laughed when I told them the name I chose for their teams. They weren’t offended.

    Louis

    * Pub facts, not actual researched facts.

    ** I included this whole paragraph in case someone doesn’t get the joke and thinks I am serious. Well, I am making a serious point just in a satirical way, hint: it’s not that Americans have some homogeneous culture that can easily be defined externally by appealing to certain {ahem} common cultural stereotypes. Yeah. Let’s go with that delicate phraseology. “Cultural stereotypes”: the nice way to say bigotry.

  189. 189
    Louis

    As an aside, Exeter rugby team is known as the Exeter Chiefs. That’s Exeter, Devon, UK. That well known hotbed of Native American activity and major Native American population centre.

    I confess I don’t know how they settled on that name, but I do know Exeter and Devon pretty damn well. They should have gone with the Cider Drinkers. That would strike far greater terror into the hearts of their opposition, and be, you know, less culturally appropriative. Which would be a better thing for an otherwise exemplary rugby team.

    Louis

  190. 190
    carlie

    Interviews with Utah Utes fans. It’s amazing how obviously awful they are and don’t even realize it, and all that has to be done is to show them talking. No “gotcha” interview tactics needed.

  191. 191
    sonofrojblake

    Exeter rugby team is known as the Exeter Chiefs. That’s Exeter, Devon, UK. That well known hotbed of Native American activity and major Native American population centre

    Hard though it may be for some to understand, there’s a world outside the borders of the USA, a world in which there are and were tribes and nations and clans not indigenous to the USA, tribes and nations and clans which had chiefs who were and are called chiefs. Imagining that the word “chief”, from Middle English via Old French is or ever was specific to indigenous Americans is ignorant and a bit racist.

  192. 192
    Louis

    Sonofrojblake, #191,

    Dawww aren’t you an adorable little fuckwit!

    1) I am English (by birthplace at least) and live in England. (Mentioned in the post above the one you reference) Not American by any stretch of the imagination.

    2) By residence, I am from the West Country originally, i.e. that’s the bit of the UK I was born in and as such, and mentioned, know Exeter and Devon (and indeed the sport of rugby) rather well.

    3) Here is the link to Exeter Rugby’s website. You’ll note prominently displayed a rather stereotypical depiction of a Native American “Chief”.

    4) Fans of Exeter rugby perform a tomahawk “chop” in their supporting chants for the team, as anyone who has actually, you know, done something wild like watched them play at Sandy Park (and elsewhere) would know.

    5) I didn’t, as anyone who could read for even basic comprehension, claim the word “chief” was unique to Native Americans. Nice straw man, but really, D-, must try harder.

    You have been summarily dealt with. Do fuck off or I shall mock you again.

    Louis

  193. 193
    carlie

    I ♥ Louis.

  194. 194
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    @sonofrojblake:

    Fucking shut up

  195. 195
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    I am truly stunned. It usually takes 10-15 comments before some asshole comes along and explains to everyone why this is seriously not really that bad, but it took one.

    One comment before someone decided to come around and defend a racist slur and a racist caricature.

    And then naturally the “Vikings, Irish, and Celtics” person came around.

    I should not be surprised, and that’s just absolutely disgusting.

  196. 196
    cartomancer

    Louis, #189

    We’re way ahead of you on that here in Somerset, where our County Cricket Club has been known as the Cidermen for years!

    Also, on a very pedantic note, someone mentioned “Spartans” earlier, claiming they no longer exist. I think the inhabitants of the Laconian city of Sparta today would have something to say about that.

    Though the modern Spartans – when they’re not too busy contending with world economic woes – tend to be very proud of their ancestors’ martial culture and heritage, and see it as a mark of respect that other cultures, from the Romans onward, have tried to take on a bit of Spartan tradition as their own (just as the modern Athenians tend to enjoy seeing other cultures and peoples do the same with their intellectual and philosophical traditions). Which is really the point of all this – some peoples don’t mind, or even actively enjoy, seeing aspects of their culture used this way. Others mind a great deal. And there are vast differences based on networks of privilege and power and discrimination on top of this.

    So what you do is ask them how they feel about it. And if they start organising high-profile campaigns to publicise how racist they feel a certain usage is, that’s a fairly good sign they’re not happy and the usage should be abandoned. It’s really not that difficult.

  197. 197
    Louis

    Cartomancer, #196,

    SOMERSET!?!?!

    Bloomin’ Northerners and Upcountrymen.* Never trusted ‘em.

    Louis

    P.S. The cider is good though. And for that I can forgive almost anything.

    * Says the bloke who has moved to That London.

  198. 198
    jamessweet

    I guess I kinda understand why people try to defend names like “Indians”, “Braves”, etc. To be clear, I don’t agree — the names should be changed. But what makes those names hurtful is highly contextual. Who’s using it, why they are using it, etc., are really important factors. Moreover, among Native Americans there does not appear to be overwhelming agreement about those names, so I can understand people’s confusion.

    I do not understand why people defend the name “Redskins”. You don’t need to understand any nuance, or any historical or social context, in order to get why this is hella offensive: It’s a racial slur being used to name a team that doesn’t contain (m)any members of the ethnicity in question. How is that okay in any universe?! It really boggles my mind.

  199. 199
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    cartomancer

    Greetings from Taunton!

  200. 200
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    One of our local high schools is Myers High School. Their mascot, sports team name, is The Mohawks. Students, every few years, petition to change the name and are told, again and again, that it is to honour Native Americans and Their Proud Traditions. (source: pers cons w/student and w/faculty)

    Which is a really good irony, considering that:

    Mohawk Look up Mohawk at Dictionary.com
    North American Indian tribe name, Iroquoian, 1630s, Mohowawogs (plural), said to mean “they eat living things” in a southern New England Algonquian tongue, probably a reference to cannibalism. Cf. Unami Delaware /muhuwe:yck/ “cannibal monsters.” The people’s name for themselves is kanye’keha:ka. Meaning “haircut style favored by punk rockers” is c.1975, from fancied resemblance to hair style of the Indians in old illustrations. The style of cut earlier was called a Mohican (1960). Mohoc, Mohock, variant form of the word, was the name given 1711 to gangs of aristocratic London ruffians.

    So other nations referred to a particular tribe of Iroquois as cannibals and this is supposed to, in some way, show respect?

  201. 201
    randay

    I guess that posters here have not read the entire Declaration of Independence, which includes this phrase in griefs against the King of England:

    “He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.”

  202. 202
    carlie

    A town I know of has a town seal that is a crude drawing of a white guy strangling an Indian.
    The story is that it depicts the founder of the town winning in a famous wrestling match that was held as a gesture of goodwill and faith between the settlers and the local tribe, and that it depicts a particular move that was accomplished in said joust, and after one protest in the 70s it was altered so that the hands of the white guy are further down, closer to the shoulders, since that’s what it was supposed to be in the first place. It honors the history with the local tribe to prove that it was a friendly takeover, see. Sure.

    It’s fucking Pawnee, Indiana, only real.

  203. 203
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    @randay:

    Nonsequitur says what?

  204. 204
    carlie

    (clarification: Pawnee is a fictional town from the tv show Parks and Recreation, which is known for its insensitivity and ridiculousness)

    randay – your point seems to be that offensiveness against Indians has been written into the fabric of the government of this country since its founding. That is exactly what we are all saying.

  205. 205
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    Randay@201

    I guess that posters here have not read the entire Declaration of Independence, which includes this phrase in griefs against the King of England:

    “He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.”

    Yes, that is a disgusting bit of hyperbolic hypocritical racism coming from assholes who also thought owning people because they weren’t wholly human was a pretty nifty idea. It’s also an old, dead document, which does not affect the USA’s system of government today. Changing it now would be pointless, culturally and effectively, since it only serves as historical context. Erasing such racism is actually in the same vein as saying that “R*dskin” is an honorific.

    Maybe I missed the point of your posting. If so, please explain.

  206. 206
    throwaway, never proofreads, every post a gamble

    carlie@204

    randay – your point seems to be

    I’m glad I’m not the only one questioning what the hell his post has to do with the topic or what the premise is he’s trying to prove.

  207. 207
    Anthony K

    I guess that posters here have not read the entire Declaration of Independence

    Some of us aren’t American. Have you read the Constitution of Canada?

  208. 208
    bargearse

    Randay@201

    I’m going to join the chorus of people asking what your point was because for the life of me I’ve got no idea.

  209. 209
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Memory from when I was a kiddo:

    Growing up in a rural area in the Midwest, the highlight of the social calendar was the high school’s Homecoming game.

    Part of the week-long festivities was, the day before the game, the boosters would make an effigy of the opposing team’s mascot and then burn it. The resulting fire would be used to roast various foodstuffs and there’d be a generalized party.

    I remember the year we played the Braves. Despite the fact that the actual local tribe were (prior to their eventual removal to Oklahoma) an agrarian culture who lived in wigwams, the iconography of the school more closely resembles the “classic” tipi-dwelling buffalo-hunting nomads further west. The actual mascot is, in fact, man wearing a war bonnet. Rather than burn him in effigy, they built, and burned, a tipi. There was a great deal of indignant whining in town over “political correctness run amok” and how deplorable it was that they had to burn a tipi.

  210. 210
    carlie

    My middle school mascot – braves
    My high school mascot – warriors
    After moving across the country, my child’s high school mascot – warriors

    Fuck.

  211. 211
    Anthony K

    My middle school mascot – braves
    My high school mascot – warriors
    After moving across the country, my child’s high school mascot – warriors

    Fuck.

    Seriously, call every team the Wolverines. If half the school teams are already called “Braves” and “Warriors”, it’s pretty obvious that the actual name doesn’t mean fuck all.

    When I played high school rugby, we had a pretty fierce rivalry with another high school. For the life of me, I can’t recall the actual name of their team or mascot: we referred to each other’s teams by the name of the school. Didn’t detract from anything. There was no lack of participation on either side when I started a bench-clearing brawl during city finals.

    Years earlier, I played a few seasons of hockey with the Knights of Columbus (yeah, Catholic school). All KoC hockey teams wore the exact same KoC jerseys: at any particular game one team wore the ‘home’ jersey and the other team wore the ‘away’ one. No bullshit with ‘Tigers’, ‘Braves’, ‘Wolverines’ at all, and yet we still knew who was on which side.

  212. 212
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    My high school mascot was the heart. A flaming heart, to be specific. As in, a red heart with flames leaping out of it.

    And then I went off to college, where the original mascot was the Virgin. Replaced with the Unicorns in the 1980s, on the grounds that if they were going to be a mythical beast never found on campus, it should be a cool one. They’re the Pioneers now.

    My roommate in graduate school went to MIT, and had a shirt that said “Love Your Beaver.” Because, you see, MIT’s mascot is the beaver, because the beaver is nature’s engineer. The “Love Your Beaver” shirt was, apparently 100% tongue-in-cheek and available only in women’s sizes and cuts.

  213. 213
    Anthony K

    My high school mascot was the heart. A flaming heart, to be specific. As in, a red heart with flames leaping out of it.

    Go, Rams! Mola Rams! Go, Rams! Mola Rams!

  214. 214
    Rutee Katreya

    Translation of Randay’s quote: “The British gov’t doesn’t consistently send soldiers to exterminate the Indians so we can claim our land from them.”.

  215. 215
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Carlie #210
    There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with ‘Warriors’ really. That’s a concept that occurs in lots of cultures. The real problem there is the racist iconography surrounding it. The logo/mascot could equally well be a Viking, a Hoplite, a mustachioed Celt with a great honking spear, almost anything, really.
     
    Esteleth #212
    I bet that similar shirts can be found at OSU, whose team are the Beavers, as that’s the state animal.
    My high school had the Axemen (after the town’s logging history), while the local University was the Ducks (who use a pissed off Donald Duck as their logo, through some kind of arrangement with Disney).

  216. 216
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    The “Love Your Beaver” shirt was, apparently 100% tongue-in-cheek and available only in women’s sizes and cuts.

    Not true anymore; they’re now the standard unisex Gideon shirt, available in a variety of colors. I have a purple one and a black one, myself.

  217. 217
    Inaji

    cubist @ 187:

    Approach this from an Intellectual Property point of view. Some sports team wants to name themselves after WhicheverTribe? Fine. The lawyers for WhicheverTribe will be happy to confer with the sports team’s owners, and let them know the terms and conditions under which they will be allowed to make use of WhicheverTribe’s image & name & “look and feel” & yada yada yada—and, of course, what sort of licensing fee the sports team will have to pay WhicheverTribe for the privilege of making use of this particular constellation of Intellectual Property. Ideally, the sports team gets their mascot; the directly-affected First Nations group gets money and retains control over how they’re portrayed in this particular slice of the mass media.

    Have you ever been on a rez, you fucking twit? They aren’t the center of corporate ‘merica, stuffed with shiny lawyers.

    Thanks so much for suggesting this though, and pointing out that yeah, Indians should just sell themselves as mascots, ’cause hey, that’s not fucking demeaning or anything, and it’s certainly not caving in to ongoing bigotry, and of course, all the bigoted white people will stop doing chops, and donning false regalia, doing false dances, and painting themselves up as stereotype Indians. Yeah, great idea.

  218. 218
    Inaji

    Also, cubist @ 187, intellectual property? It’s our culture, our identity, you stupid fucking asshole.

  219. 219
    John Horstman

    I support the messages of this manifesto 100%.

  220. 220
  221. 221
    JJ831

    Late to the party (and I apologize if this has been posted, I’ve only got through anbout 100 of the comments so far), but this image has been flaoting around facebook, made by the National Congress of American Indians. I though it illustrated a good point

  222. 222
    ChasCPeterson

    I’ve only got through anbout 100 of the comments so far

    well, you missed #65. [winky-smiley emoticon here]
    Which is cool; it bears reposting.

  223. 223
    Tethys

    I am 100% in support of this, and I am pretty chuffed that this legislation is being sponsered by my elected Representative.Betty McCollum

    It doesn’t make up for that other representative that my state sent to congress, long shall the stain of shame be upon us for inflicting Ms Bachmann on the nation

  224. 224
    JJ831

    @Chas 222
    Ahh, funny that, guess I missed that one!

    Cheers
    JJ

  225. 225
    What a Maroon, oblivious

    re 220, OptimalCynic,

    Of course, even when Krauthammer’s on the right side of an issue, he manages to be wrong. If I’m following his logic, he’s saying that hey, 80 years ago the R word was meant to honor the Indians, so it was ok, but things change and somehow it’s picked up some bad connotations over the years (I guess 80 years ago the relationship between whites and Indians was just ducky, but something bad’s happened since then), and, well, you don’t want to be that person, even if it doesn’t matter if you go against the PC crowd (led, I guess, by Bob Costas and Barack Obama), but, you know, it’s just better not to use it.

    Please excuse the barf on my keyboard. That man makes me sick.

  226. 226
    David Marjanović

    I like the idea of “Washington Bureaucrats”. Only “Brussels Eurocrats” is scarier than that. :-)

    Late to the party (and I apologize if this has been posted, I’ve only got through anbout 100 of the comments so far)

    Then why do you comment?

    Yes, of course it’s been posted several times already.

  227. 227
    Tethys

    DavidM

    Then why do you comment?

    It’s just one of those weird things that NT people do.
    Participating in a conversation before they have gathered ALL of the facts. Sheesh!
    *shrug and a wink*

    **Absolutely no offense meant to JJ831 by this comment.

  228. 228
    Jeff K

    Some folks seem to think being an American gives them to right to be an asshole. Perhaps, but it also gives the rest of us the right to call you on it.

    My high school mascot was the Blue Devil. A fundie group in town tried to change it, but there was too much popular support. They did dial down the image of the devil from sinister to cherubic, however.

  229. 229
    Inaji

    Jeff K:

    My high school mascot was the Blue Devil. A fundie group in town tried to change it, but there was too much popular support. They did dial down the image of the devil from sinister to cherubic, however.

    Your point being?

  230. 230
    cubist

    caine @ 217/218: I agree. It is your culture, your identity. At present, your culture and identity are getting exploited in really crappy ways, and in an ideal world, this shit wouldn’t happen at all. So… my “intellectual property” proposal. Right now, control of the portrayal of your culture/identity is largely (if not entirely) in the hands of bigoted asswipes; my proposal is about shifting that control over to the hands of the people who are currently getting shat upon by misappropriation of their culture/identity. The terms-and-conditions bit of my proposal is where your people specify what sort of portrayals of your culture/identity are, or aren’t, acceptible. This won’t prevent Joe Fan-in-the-street from being shitty, but at least it would mean that the sports team itself would be using its resources and media presence and yada yada in ways that you approve (see also: that Florida university’s relationship with the Seminoles). Not perfect, but at least it’d be a damn sight better than the current situation.

    The biggest problem I can see with my proposal is getting First Nations groups to buy into it, because there is likely to be the very understandable, historically-grounded reaction of Oh, look. Another ‘treaty’. Thanks, but no fucking thanks. Nevertheless, there may at least be some bits of my proposal which are deemed valuable enough to be worth extracting for re-use in other contexts. And if not… [shrug] c’est la vie.

  231. 231
    teejaykay

    I ought to not comment on this as I’m not American, but in my country we have a similar way of suppressing the indigenous people. That would be, the Sami, whom Proto-Finnic speakers basically kicked up all the way to Lapland. Sami culture and language is a protected language group and culture, but for some fucking reason we’re more interested in Finnish and Swedish being the official languages over here.

    It does compare — but only a bit. We don’t have the “Sami Bowmen ice rally team” or something like that as far as I know over here, but it’s still inexcusable. But not as bad as 1) having your land taken from you (sometimes with false pretenses) and 2) your being stereotyped and used as a sort of past and present living commercial 3) conveniently forgetting that many states and geographical elements such as lakes, rivers and whatnot came from the lips of the first humans of the American continent.

  232. 232
    Inaji

    Teejaykay:

    Sami culture and language is a protected language group and culture, but for some fucking reason we’re more interested in Finnish and Swedish being the official languages over here.

    At the 39th UTTC International Powwow in Bismarck, the visiting group were Sami people. It was wonderful to see them, and learn a bit about them and their culture.

  233. 233
    teejaykay

    Caine:

    Theirs is an awesome culture! I sometimes have ti kick someone mentally in the head with an imaginary steel-capped toe when so-called ‘True Finns’ declare that Finns are the original occupants of this country. Nope, the Sami really were the indigenous. Alas, I can’t admit to meeting more than two of them, and even then I was just a kid, watching them work with the reindeers… well, professional like.

    Also, I’ll head to the Lounge not derail further, but be assured that I’m curious as to your heritage.

  234. 234
    carlie

    I like the idea of “Washington Bureaucrats”.

    But what ref could be impartial and call a foul committed against a Washington bureaucrat? ;)

  235. 235
    David Marjanović

    Ouch. Very good point.

  236. 236
    dean

    indicus’ penis would explode right off his groin were that to happen.

    Since we only have one small shot at the name change it better get done the right way.

    Here in Michigan Central Michigan University’s team names is “Chippewas”. They have an interesting arrangement with the Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe, discussed here:
    http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/18484/tribe-supports-native-american-mascots

    One bit of that article:

    (Interviewer:) So when you say it’s fine to use non-derogatory imagery as long as it’s being used appropriately, you’re saying that part of that “appropriate use” is educational content about Native Americans?
    (Saginaw Chippewas public relations director Frank Cloutier:) Yes. For example, in 2003 we entered into an articulation agreement with Central Michigan University, because they were the Chippewas. As part of that agreement, the tribe and the university each has an obligation. Every year I go in and address every freshman athletic student about our culture and what it means to be a Chippewa, and about the proud, competitive nature of our people. We explain that it’s not about war paint and fake feathers. It’s about honoring the triumph of these resilient, competitive people.
    They also have areas on campus that are dedicated to the presence of the Chippewa Nation. So it’s a good cross-cultural exchange. And when they go out there and compete, they’re Chippewas, they’re fighting like a Chippewa, fighting to win. We’ve made that university our school of choice for Native Americans, because our tribal community is close by, so we can help support those Native students.
    (Interviewer:) What if a high school or university wasn’t interested in doing these types of cultural exchanges and educational efforts? What would your feelings be about their use of Native imagery?
    (Saginaw Chippewas public relations director Frank Cloutier:) It would be completely different. If they’re not willing to celebrate and show the culture, they shouldn’t have the privilege of depicting it.

    Having been to several games where CMU played WMU (my old school), and still seeing video and talking to people who attend now, the attempts at education Mr. Cloutier mentions haven’t done squat to many of the football fans: the behaviors that are so aggravating in other places are present, and the entire presentation Central gives is unacceptable. I am among an apparently small group who thinks CMU should change its name in spite of this arrangement. So, for the person upline who suggested that nations should work with the organizations to market their names, here is one data point where both sides seem to think it is working well when, in fact, it isn’t.

    Note: apologies for the awkwardly formatted blockquote: I attempted to make it as readable as possible.

  237. 237
    David Marjanović

    It’s just one of those weird things that NT people do.

    Weird? It’s evil. “Hey, I haven’t bothered finding out if that’s already been said 10 times, but I feel the urge to prolong this thread anyway. Eat that.” And then several more people do the same as the thread gets longer. It’s arrogant, annoying, and time-consuming for readers. Fuck that shit.

    That would be, the Sami, whom Proto-Finnic speakers basically kicked up all the way to Lapland.

    That was even later, says Wikipedia: “During the Middle Ages and Early Modern Age now extinct Sami languages were also spoken in the central and southern parts of Finland and Karelia and in a wider area on the Scandinavian peninsula. Historical documents as well as Finnish and Karelian oral tradition contain many mentions of the earlier Sami inhabitation in these areas (Itkonen 1947). Also loanwords as well as place-names of Sami origin in the southern dialects of Finnish and Karelian dialects testify of earlier Sami presence in the area (Koponen 1996; Saarikivi 2004; Aikio 2007). These Sami languages, however, became extinct later, under the wave of the Finno-Karelian agricultural expansion.”

    BTW, the cited Ante Aikio, a linguist who works on Uralic languages in general, has also published as Luobbal Sámmol Sámmol Ánte – I conclude he natively speaks a Sami language.

  238. 238
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    ekwhite (@186):

    The name [Braves] also doesn’t have a thing to do with Atlanta.

    Hardly surprising, since that team started out in Boston and then moved to Milwaukee before finally landing in Atlanta. Jazz doesn’t have much to do with Utah, either, but for some insane reason the former New Orleans NBA team kept the name when it moved.

    Even when they’re not on the culturally-insensitive-to-downright-offensive spectrum, sports teams’ names frequently don’t make much sense.

    carlie, et al. (@various):

    Re Warriors: My first teaching job was at a little private K-12 school in Houston, where we barely had interscholastic sports at all (IIRC, only boys’ basketball and girls’ volleyball), but the almost-unnecessary athletic nickname was Warriors. About halfway through my first (and as it turned out, only full) year there, the new headmaster announced that we were changing the nickname to Knights, and I frankly couldn’t imagine why… until he said the issue was cultural sensitivity. I did eventually find some Native American iconography on the cover of an old yearbook, but there was none of it on the teams’ or cheerleaders’ uniforms (just the word Warriors and the letter W), nor on the building or in the gym. In the absence of a visible mascot, I had been imagining a generic Hollywood-style classical (i.e., Roman or Hellenic) warrior!

    It seems to me that absent a specific iconographic connection to Native Americans, Warriors is pretty generic: Throughout most of human history, in virtually every culture, it’s been somebody’s job to fight wars.

    Sadly.

    Also, jamessweet (@198) said what I was struggling to say upthread, more clearly and with fewer words. Big shock that last, eh? 8^(

  239. 239
    carlie

    Bill – true; all of the places I mentioned featured a generic Indian wearing a headdress, so it was pretty blatant. My own high school had a 7 foot tall painting of a generic Indian in full headdress and loincloth on the gym wall.

  240. 240
    erikthebassist

    240 comments in and no one wants to talk about the legality of suing in an effort to suppress free speech?

    The Washington football franchise of the NFL is a privately owned business and has the right to name it’s self whatever it wants in a free country.

    It’s not hate speech, it’s not screaming “fire” in a crowded theater.

    I agree it’s deplorable and every avenue of political and social pressure should be brought to bear in an effort to get the douchecanoe owner to change the name, but legally, he has the right to keep the name and no amount of lawsuits are going to change that.

    Personally I don’t want to live in the country where they could.

    Mind you, I’m not citing “Freeze Peach” as the right to spout nonsense where it it isn’t welcome. This is actual free speech in the purest sense. They can’t be sued out of using the name, so this manifesto is pointless in that respect.

    Social pressure? Yes! Mock anyone who wears the jersey, boycott the hell out of them, hit them in the pocket book, go for it… but threatening legal action? Empty threat, unconstitutional.

    As a preemptive rebuttal to the objection that it WOULD be considered hate speech if they were called the Washington Niggers…. no…. sadly it wouldn’t…

    Wikipedia on “free speech” vs “hate speech”

    Some limits on expression were contemplated by the framers and have been read into the Constitution by the Supreme Court. In 1942, Justice Frank Murphy summarized the case law: “There are certain well-defined and limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise a Constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous and the insulting or “fighting” words – those which by their very utterances inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace.”[67]
    Traditionally, however, if the speech did not fall within one of the above categorical exceptions, it was protected speech. In 1969, the Supreme Court protected a Ku Klux Klan member’s racist and hate filled speech and created the ‘imminent danger’ test to permit hate speech. The court ruled in Brandenburg v. Ohio that; “The constitutional guarantees of free speech and free press do not permit a state to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force, or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.”[68]
    This test has been modified very little from its inception in 1969 and the formulation is still good law in the US. Only speech that poses an imminent danger of unlawful action, where the speaker has the intention to incite such action and there is the likelihood that this will be the consequence of his or her speech, may be restricted and punished by that law.

    Hate speech is very clearly defined as inciting imminent unlawful action.

    Now, we CAN say that the name is obscene and prevent the team from using the publicly owned airwaves, as we prevent pornographers and others from doing.

    We CAN do a lot of things legally, but forcing them to change the name as a matter of law is not one of them. Redefining hate speech is not going to work here.

  241. 241
    lpetrich

    I agree that Redskins is needlessly insulting. But there used to be some teams called the Washington Senators. So we can revive that name.

    New York Bankers? That’s a good one.

    Minnesota Vikings? I don’t find that name very bothersome. I don’t think that many people with Scandinavian ancestry find that association insulting.

  242. 242
    ChasCPeterson

    Of course, Bill’s right. Many sport-team names make no sense at all. The Lakers made sense in Minnesota; not so much in LA. Ditto the [Trolley] Dodgers in Brooklyn vs, LA. The Utah Jazz is maybe the stupidest ever.
    But not making sense is different from being racist and insulting. Fuck the Redskins and their supporters.

  243. 243
    chimera

    #30 Gonzales

    the idea of some team of American Indians playing one of their games under the names “NY Bankers” or “Georgia Rednecks”, or “Tallahassee Crackers”?

    Love it, love it, love it! ! ! !

    Made me laugh out loud which is something I need today.

    Working my way down the thread…

  244. 244
    Charly

    Even as a white european who has nothing to do with american footbal at all, I encountered some fake Native American imagery used for commercial purposes. I never gave it a second thought, thus never infering it is degrading and insulting to still living members of Native American tribes.

    So I wish to use this oportunity to thank you, PZ and horde, for educating me on this matter as well as for many other things in last five years. I am more aware now than I was before.

  245. 245
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    carlie @234 et al.:

    I like the idea of “Washington Bureaucrats”.

    But what ref could be impartial and call a foul committed against a Washington bureaucrat? ;)

    Seriously, could we stop using the GOP right wing talking points as jokes? The far right has spent the last fifty years demonizing public workers and totally ignoring the fact that we are following the laws laid down by congress and the directions of the President’s political appointees.

  246. 246
    chimera

    #88 and 111

    Yeah, great article provided by link at #88. Really does deserve to be read.

  247. 247
    chimera

    #156, I think, Jonathan der Ewige Noobe (or something like that)

    If you’re not from the U.S., if you’re like from the Netherlands or something, then your instincts about terms of address are all wrong in an American situation. Just another cultural difference to be learned.

  248. 248
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Ogvorbis,

    I have a comment regarding your #244 in Thunderdome. Not yelling at you or anything like that, I just responded there so that we don’t derail this thread.

  249. 249
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I’m sorry, the former was my first comment in this thread, and it wasn’t even about the topic.

    I have read all the comments, and I fully support this manifesto and its requests. Being a white European, I don’t feel qualified to argue much, my lack of knowledge on the topic is too great.

  250. 250
    chimera

    #177 Torbertin

    New Zealand’s international rugby team, the All Blacks (named after their uniform color) performs a Haka prior to the start of their matches. Generally, a third to a half of their players are Pacific Islanders and Maori, while the others are whites. In 2006, the team wrote a new Haka (traditionally, they performed ‘Ka Mate’ — http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tdMCAV6Yd0Y&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DtdMCAV6Yd0Y. /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka_Mate. )’, the construction of which was advised by dance and language experts from the various tribes in the region.

    Yeah, was thinking about that as I read the thread. Was wondering if that Haka thing was racist. The French are bigtime rugby fans, in some parts of the country it’s more popular than soccer or cycling. Their biggest dream is to beat the All Blacks. And they are soooooooooo jealous of that Haka, would really like to have one of their own.

  251. 251
    left0ver1under

    lpetrich (#240) –

    I agree that Redskins is needlessly insulting. But there used to be some teams called the Washington Senators. So we can revive that name.

    New York Bankers? That’s a good one.

    I’ve been calling them the New York Bankees for almost a decade. Considering the price of their roster and the poor money management while sucking money out of the public, it fits.

    As mentioned in my other post (#171), teams are preventing others teams in other sports (existing or expansion) from using the same nickname for copyright and financial reasons. It’s unlikely the Ottawa Senators of the NHL would consent to Washington’s NFL team becoming the Senators, not without some financial compensation that Snyder would likely be unwilling to pay.

    Washington Columbians (since they’re in DC) might be a better choice, the origins and meaning of it are all positive. It has a nice collegiate ring to it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia

    Washington’s team in the old North American Soccer League was called the Diplomats, but they were widely called the Dips, which few people liked. (Anyone remember Johann Cruyff?) One NASL nickname I always liked was the Tampa Bay Rowdies. It was original, although their uniforms were the most hideous in pro sports, worse than the Pittsburgh Pirate uniforms of the 1970s or the Vancouver Canucks of the 1980s.

    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls (#36) -

    The Cleveland Indians could change their name to the Cleveland Rockers,

    Or they could change back to the Cleveland Spiders, which was the Cleveland team’s nickname over a century ago. Sports fans usually like regurgitating history, though whether they’d like an arachnid (other than a scorpion) is another matter. It’s not like there’s any competition for use of the name.

  252. 252
    ChasCPeterson

    Washington Columbians (since they’re in DC) might be a better choice, the origins and meaning of it are all positive.

    ‘kipedia sez: The meaning is therefore “Land of Columbus.”
    yeah, that’s oh-so positive from an Indian perspective. ffs.

  253. 253
    Inaji

    left0ver1under:

    Washington Columbians (since they’re in DC) might be a better choice, the origins and meaning of it are all positive.

    You have an odd idea of what constitutes positive. Let me guess, you’re not Indian, right?

  254. 254
    fernando

    This topic was quite informative, because now im aware about things that i never thought much about and, above all, made me see that the idea i had about the names of some american clubs was misplaced and quite wrong.

    I sincerely wish the most sucess to this manifesto of the natives inhabitants of north america.

    PS: i just wanted to add, in a way to justify my earlier ignorance in regard to the use of certain names and mascots in american clubsthe fact that we use, in my country, names and symbols of animals and ancient peoples (for example: bronze age peoples, iron age peoples, romans: all of them – in some way – our ancestors), in clubs, groups, cultural festivals and sport competitions.

  255. 255
    David Marjanović

    My own high school had a 7 foot tall painting of a generic Indian in full headdress and loincloth on the gym wall.

    That seems so… random.

    Even as a white european who has nothing to do with american footbal at all, I encountered some fake Native American imagery used for commercial purposes.

    I just recently noticed that Native American Spirit tobacco is sold over here.

    traditionally, they performed ‘Ka Mate’ —

    A few clicks away from your link is this: the All Blacks get to engage in a bit of dialogue with the Fijians, who have something closely related of their own!

    The French are bigtime rugby fans, in some parts of the country it’s more popular than soccer or cycling. Their biggest dream is to beat the All Blacks. And they are soooooooooo jealous of that Haka, would really like to have one of their own.

    Heh. I know a French fan of the All Blacks who performed a quite impressive Haka when he got an All Blacks T-shirt at the party after his PhD defense!

    It’s unlikely the Ottawa Senators of the NHL would consent to Washington’s NFL team becoming the Senators

    Try Representatives, then.

  256. 256
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    Ogvorbis (@244):

    Seriously, could we stop using the GOP right wing talking points as jokes? The far right has spent the last fifty years demonizing public workers and totally ignoring the fact that we are following the laws laid down by congress and the directions of the President’s political appointees.

    QFFT!! (And I don’t apologize for responding here, because here’s where what Brother Og is calling out has been going on.)

    left0ver1under (@250):

    It’s unlikely the Ottawa Senators of the NHL would consent to Washington’s NFL team becoming the Senators, not without some financial compensation…

    Not sure Ottawa’d have any standing to interfere, since it’s a different sport in a different market in a different nation, and senators is a common noun. In fact, the original Ottawa Senators overlapped in time with an earlier iteration of the Washington Senators (the one that became the Minnesota Twins, not the one that became the Texas Rangers).

    I was going to say that the bigger objection is that Senators has historically been the name (three separate times) of Washington’s baseball team, and football fans likely wouldn’t accept a “baseball name.” Except… when I was fact-checking myself, I learned that there has already been a professional football team called the Washington Senators: It played from 1921 to 1922 in the American Professional Football Association, which eventually became the current NFL.

  257. 257
    Inaji

    Bill Dauphin:

    (And I don’t apologize for responding here, because here’s where what Brother Og is calling out has been going on.)

    You should, because everyone else, including Ogvorbis, was polite enough to take the derail to thunderdome. Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the new commenting rules.

  258. 258
    Bill Dauphin, avec fromage

    Caine:

    I have, and have just done so again, and I’m not sure how I’m in violation: Calling out bad behavior in a thread is explicitly encouraged in the rules. Ogvorbis did that, and I said “right on!”

    That said, you’re the moderator. I apologize, and will desist.

  259. 259
    left0ver1under

    ChasCPeterson (251) and Caine, Fleur du mal (#252) –

    Alright, that was a poor suggestion. I’m not an American, so Columbus and imperialism doesn’t come immediately to mind.

    Those who own or run teams with inappropriate names aren’t going to change nicknames just because they’re wrong, like a thief who keeps stealing even though he knows it’s illegal. The only things that are going to stop them are conscience (a pro sports owner? are you kidding?), consequences (leagues revoking franchises or governments dictating to them? not likely) or when changing is more beneficial than not changing.

    Sports owners already know that the names are inappropriate, but they don’t change because it’s more profitable to keep what they have. They will only change names when the current ones cost them too much money, or when new ones will make them more money. Doesn’t thinking up potential new names give them a reason to change?

  260. 260
    kaleberg

    Wasn’t there a baseball team called the Washington Senators? Maybe the name is free.

    I remember reading about a Dutch football team called the Sometownoranother Jews. I’m Jewish, and I thought it was hilarious, but maybe it would have been a better idea in another universe.

  261. 261
    SQB

    That would be AFC Ajax. Being from Amsterdam, a city with a large Jewish community, (fans of) opponents called them Jews, a name that the fans adopted, most of them without being Jewish themselves. The hard core supporters, the F-side, appropriated the star of David with an F in the centre as their symbol.
    This in turn led to anti-Semitic chants and imagery being used by the opposing fans.

    Jewish organisations and, to their credit, the club itself, oppose this appropriation.

    So while it’s a similar situation, it’s not an official name.

  262. 262
    SQB

    I propose the Washington Shutdowns.

  263. 263
    SQB

    The Washington Presidents?

  264. 264
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    There is a definite upside to changing the name of the Washington Redskins: Just think how much Snyder could make in royalties as fans replace their hats, t-shirts, sweatshirts, team jerseys, knitted caps, sweat pants, scarfs, sweaters, bobbleheads, car stickers and decals, wall hangings, clocks, sheets, bedspreads, quilts, pillowcases, shoe laces, ear rings, necklaces, watches, etc.

  265. 265
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Sorry, that should be “a definite economic upside for the owner to changing . . .

  266. 266
    ekwhite

    SQB:

    I really like the name The Washington Presidents. They could even have George Washington as their mascot! The possibilities are endless!

  267. 267
    ledasmom

    Bill Dauphin @ 255:

    I was going to say that the bigger objection is that Senators has historically been the name (three separate times) of Washington’s baseball team, and football fans likely wouldn’t accept a “baseball name.” Except… when I was fact-checking myself, I learned that there has already been a professional football team called the Washington Senators: It played from 1921 to 1922 in the American Professional Football Association, which eventually became the current NFL.

    They could be the Washington Football Senators. Works for the Giants.
    (I know the situation’s slightly different, but “Washington Football Senators” has a nice gravity to it)
    If the Washington Presidents had George Washington for their mascot, he could be Washington Washington, or W-Squared for short.

  268. 268
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    They could even have George Washington as their mascot! The possibilities are endless!

    And as a gimmick, at every home game, anyone wearing the new Washington Presidents logo’d merchandise would be given a shiny US quarter. Complete with a fine portrait of an actual President.

  269. 269
    randay

    Two other possible team names: The Washington Lobbyists or The Washington AC/DC.

  270. 270
    randay

    I don’t understand what is so hard to understand about my comment on the Declaration of Independence. It is just a historical reference to show how long and ingrained prejudice has been in America’s history. Maybe we should call the Washington team the “Washington Three-fifths” in the interest of historical accuracy. “The Washington Imperialists” would also be appropriate. “The Washington Gridlock” would work. More obtuse would be “The Washingtion K-streeters” or “The Washington Beltway”.

    For those posters who mentioned rugby, I like that sport too. Mascots for the British Isles teams are plants: The English Rose, The Scot Thistle, The Irish Clover. Wales is an exception being the Red Dragons.

    I wonder if there are any American pro or school teams with plants for mascots.

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