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Sep 10 2013

[Thunderdome]

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

673 comments

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  1. 501
    Lofty

    chigau

    Mighty quiet around these parts to-night/day.

    Sometimes silently listening/reading is the right thing to do.

  2. 502
    gobi's sockpuppet's meatpuppet

    Ssshhh!
    They are listening

  3. 503
    opposablethumbs

    Yay cicely. I think you’ve definitely got something there :-D

  4. 504
    Lars

    Spam coming through!!!

    What I would say to creationists if I was more of a dick

    I just stumbled upon it. It’s far from perfect, but it come close in some spots. I suppose the Thunderdome is as good a place to post it as anywhere. And now, for the “run” part of this hit-and-run. Tata!

  5. 505
    rorschach

    It’s far from perfect, but it come close in some spots

    Actually, the post is at least as dumb as it claims creationists to be. Maybe more so.

  6. 506
    Lars

    The self-aggrandizing parts were painful to read, and yeah, they were too long and there were far too many of them. I still think much of the vitriol worked just fine.

  7. 507
    Jacob Schmidt

    The first comment did it for me:

    I do believe that within the universe, the exact same “life zone”, the correct place for a planet to orbits it’s own star, will be happening somewhere. No one can prove otherwise.

    “My belief is unfalsifiable; I must be right!”

    Cripes. Bad reasoning is grating. Bad reasoning to support a position you largely agree with is far worse.

  8. 508
    Inaji

    I am seriously tired and trying to cope with too much pain. I’ve recently developed an ongoing burning sensation in my muscles, along with a few other types of pain, been involuntarily dropping things, having bouts of nausea which seem unrelated to the pancreas, yada, yada, yada. My neurodoc has me slated for all kinds of wonderful tests in November.

    Very, very tired of all this shit.

  9. 509
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    :( I’m sorry to hear that, Caine.

  10. 510
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Sorry you are having such problems, Caine. Is there a good reason the doc is waiting until Nov. to do the testing?

  11. 511
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Sorry to hear about your troubles Caine. Hope things turn out well.

  12. 512
    Inaji

    Thanks, Esteleth. I really wish we had bod replacement tech, I’d be first in line.

    Morgan, yeah, my regular appointment is in November, I didn’t feel like changing it. I have a feeling that if MS is ruled out, I’ll be looking at a diagnosis of CPS (Central Pain Syndrome), which won’t mean anything, outside of “well, you’ll have to cope.”

  13. 513
    cicely

    *many hugs* for Caine.
    -

  14. 514
    Inaji

    Thank you, Nerd. I plan on lots of napping. Much napping.

  15. 515
    Inaji

    Cicely, thank you, and right back atcha.

  16. 516
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Caine,

    I too have one of those glorious “idiopathic” bodies whose maladies defy regular diagnostics. It is a charming way to live. [/snark] If I can give one small piece of unasked for advice… Don’t let the docs overdrug you. A lot of my meds were fighting with a lot of my other meds until I overrode everyone and took control. But it wasn’t easy. Good luck. I hope it is nothing horrid.

    It is going to be interesting to see how the new Obamacare financing will impact care. It can’t get any worse, can it? (rhetorical question)

  17. 517
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Also, a huge pile of comfy hugs, chocolate, and libations of choice for all who need/want them.

  18. 518
    Inaji

    Morgan, yeah, management can be a pain. My neuro is good about stuff, does as much or as little as I like on the drug front. I already have one useless diagnosis, fibromyalgia, which most doctors treat as “hey, it’s all in your head, little lady!” It’s annoying. I do have a fucked up spine though, so it might be damage, so tests. Same old shit.

  19. 519
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Hey, sister Caine. Welcome to the club! I also have the useless FM diagnosis AND a screwed up spine. And other assorted crap. Ah, great minds (and bodies) run the same gutters.

    The thing that worries me the most though is the fact that three people on my mother’s side of the family have died of brain tumors. And I take after that side of the family in spades. I am excruciatingly vigilant about possible symptoms. Phooey! Ya’ gotta have a sense of humor.

  20. 520
    Inaji

    Morgan:

    The thing that worries me the most though is the fact that three people on my mother’s side of the family have died of brain tumors.

    Oh fuck. I’d be worried about that too. I will be getting scanned for da brain tumors too. I swear, I’ve been scanned enough for two bloody lifetimes.

  21. 521
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    About scans… Are you claustrophobic? I am, terribly. I would hyperventilate so badly every time they shoved me into one of those tubes that it ruined the scan. Now, I insist on a double dose of Ativan or nothing is getting done.

  22. 522
    Vicki, duly vaccinated tool of the feminist conspiracy

    If it is MS, there are an increasing number of “disease-modifying agents,” meaning drugs that can stop the underlying disease from getting worse. Lots of tradeoffs there, in terms of risk factors and how effective they are, along with things like “do needles bother you?” (That’s in the best-case scenario where you have insurance that will cover two or more of them, so there is a choice.)

    And there are some pain treatments that are specific to nerve pain, along with the “well, you can take ibuprofen or tylenol” approach to pain, regardless of cause.

  23. 523
    Inaji

    Morgan:

    About scans… Are you claustrophobic?

    A bit. I’m fine, as long as they are open on the head end, and have air. I don’t mind the proper ones, those things are bloody huge. The teensy weensy ones (MRI) they truck around? Aauugh. I don’t like those. Fuck, they can’t get those done fast enough.

    I did have a cat scan not too long ago, and that thing was hella cool. Looked like something out of Star Trek.

  24. 524
    Inaji

    Vicki:

    And there are some pain treatments that are specific to nerve pain, along with the “well, you can take ibuprofen or tylenol” approach to pain, regardless of cause.

    Yeah, I know. I already have enough pain meds to float an army, and they are minimally effective. (I don’t take the oxy unless it’s really bad, which would be torture on most people’s scale, I have high tolerance) If it comes down to CPS, I’ll consider methadone.

  25. 525
    chigau (違う)

    Caine
    Pain sucks.
    Have you tried a layer of warm, fuzzy rats?

  26. 526
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Welcome to the club! I also have the useless FM diagnosis AND a screwed up spine. And other assorted crap

    L has those too…

    big *hugs* to Caine and Morgan

  27. 527
    Lofty

    Dear Mr Obama,
    Please be so kind as to help reduce the pain in Caine, which wracks the brain.
    Regards, a confirmed leftie.

  28. 528
    Inaji

    Have you tried a layer of warm, fuzzy rats?

    All the time, Chigau. All the time. Today’s rat discovery: they *love* very expensive sharp white cheddar. (They won’t touch the orange stuff.) Snobs, all of ‘em.

    Dalillama, L has all my sympathies.

    Lofty, thanks for the prayer. If only it would do some good.

  29. 529
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Dalillama, please give L all my good wishes and gentle hugs, if wanted. This is not a great club of which to be a member, but we can all kvetch about in good company.

  30. 530
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Clear, cold, dark night sky
    Eastwards, Jupiter rises
    Thanks Stellarium!

    (I revert to type so readily. I apologise!)

  31. 531
    Inaji

    I just got in for a week at the pain clinic and physical therapy. I’ll be gone for a week. Have fun, all.

  32. 532
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Be well, Caine. I hope the clinic does great things for you.

  33. 533
    carlie

    Yowza, Caine. Tell that pancreas to shape the hell up! Hugs to you and good luck.

  34. 534
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Hang in there, Caine. ♥

    I’ll put the kettle on for you.

  35. 535
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    Best of luck, Caine.

  36. 536
    cicely

    Here’s a Care Package of *hugs* and *chocolate* for you to take with you, Caine. And another *hug* for immediate use.
    :)
    -

  37. 537
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Caine

    I just got in for a week at the pain clinic and physical therapy. I’ll be gone for a week. Have fun, all.

    Good news!

    And never mind – we’ll hold the fort while you’re there.

  38. 538
    Inaji

    Thank you, everyone! I won’t be taking a ‘puter or the wireless, because I’m already on overage for the month, so if anyone sees Elroy (boygenius), could you holler to him for me, and tell him we’ll be at the Rally in Leith on Sunday? Thanks so much. Off to try and sleep now, I have an early start in the morning. (Honestly, the pain clinic people are into doing things at an ungodly hour of the morning. You’d think they’d know better.)

  39. 539
    Jessa

    Good luck, Caine. I hope the pain clinic can provide you with some relief. *hugs*

  40. 540
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    caine
    *hugs* Best wishes.

  41. 541
    chigau (違う)

    The squatter houseguest upstairs is on his phone talking about “brazilian”.
    I know that he is discussing jujitsu.
    Why am I picturing wax?

  42. 542
    =8)-DX

    People, drop the thread and go watch somegreybloke’s Dawkins parody.

  43. 543
    opposablethumbs

    Lorryload of virtual warm fuzzy rat-hugs to Caine. Hope the clinic can help. And you can’t come back soon enough! (though not until you feel up to it, OK?)

  44. 544
    Nick Gotts

    All the best, Caine.

  45. 545
    Weed(less) Monkey

    =8)-DX, Beware the Believers set a very high standard to Dawkins parodies. I don’t think he understood that one either.

  46. 546
    =8)-DX

    Darn.. I guess dropping Caine and a pile of rats and hugs wasn’t a tactful suggestion. Pain can be very difficult to deal with so solicitations and wellwishes to Caine… hope things get better.

  47. 547
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Caine:

    Safe ehugs and support. Take care of you.

  48. 548
    chigau (違う)

    *poke*

  49. 549
    birgerjohansson

    Good luck, Caine.
    — — — — — — — —
    There is what seems like either a Poe or a juicy troll at Ed Brayton’s blog.

    Science Proves Same-Sex Marriage Wrong! (not) http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2013/09/17/science-proves-same-sex- marriage-wrong/#more-22556

  50. 550
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Good luck Caine. Be well.

  51. 551
    Walton

    [TW: sexual abuse, violence, medical neglect]

    So I have a post up at The Feminist Hivemind about the recent sexual abuse case at Yarl’s Wood immigration removal centre, and how it fits into the pattern of institutionalized racism, sexism and violence in the immigration enforcement system.

    I also went to a protest today in London calling for the closure of Yarl’s Wood and for a full public inquiry into the abuse of immigration detainees. We’re talking about a detention camp in which women detainees have been sexually assaulted and harassed; in which detention centre guards enter women’s rooms unannounced and deny them privacy and dignity; in which women, including pregnant women and women with young children, are expected to live in degrading and inhuman conditions; in which detainees are expected to do menial labour for far below minimum wage; and in which detainees with serious illnesses are often given paracetamol instead of adequate medical care. This is all happening on our doorstep. The Home Office tries to cover these things up; we need to speak out.

    Many of these women are asylum-seekers who came here to seek protection; many of them are rape survivors, torture survivors and FGM survivors. They face hyperskepticism from the authorities, and are routinely accused of lying about what happened to them, the burden of proof being placed on them to prove that they are “genuine” asylum-seekers. This is wrong. It is not how our society should be.

  52. 552
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    POKE

    Ow. You know the Thunderdome spans both space and time for us computers?

    So, er, yay for me for working regular hours yesterday, and then from 1am to 8am, and then turning up at the office for the afternoon. It’s not so much that I’m confused what time it is. I’m somewhat unclear what era it is. There are large spiders. Is it the Carboniferous?

  53. 553
    Ichthyic

    There are large spiders. Is it the Carboniferous?

    are you sure you didn’t get a job in Night Vale?

  54. 554
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Birgerjohanssen:
    I get a 404 page not found message from your link…

  55. 555
    birgerjohansson

    Tony, here is a non-borked link (I hope)
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2013/09/17/science-proves-same-sex-marriage-wrong/

    There is a fun crank quoted, see the bit where he says the “vagina” doesn’t emit feces, only urine, in listing the other things that come from the vagina, he says that vaginas: “eject the occasional baby”.

  56. 556
    birgerjohansson

    …and I get a vision of the vagina as a baby toaster, “chunk”, WHAAAH!!!!

  57. 557
    birgerjohansson

    I just realised; He thinks women are marsupials!

  58. 558
    birgerjohansson

    Night Vale indeed. Here is a nice supplement: John Dies at the End (film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dies_at_the_End_(film)

  59. 559
    Howard Bannister

    I just watched that movie the other day.

    Delightfully weird.

  60. 560
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    So that hot mess at Ed’s was sc-numbers. I do not recall him posting anything like that before. Rather bizarre and deeply stupid.

  61. 561
    carlie

    Jesus. Some idiot on twitter is trying to argue with me that analyzing comedy makes it not funny and ruins the enjoyment of it, and is trying to counter my response that analysis doesn’t ruin enjoyment by saying “by that measure, then men should be gynecologists in bed”. First, creepy? Second, yes, knowing which part is which definitely helps?

  62. 562
    Rob Grigjanis

    Tony @560: No! The sc who posts here is sc_770…, not sc_3c0…

  63. 563
    UnknownEric the Apostate

    PSA: David Silverman is NOT our ally. Please check out his current Twitter meltdown.

  64. 564
    chigau (違う)

    I don’t do twitter.

  65. 565
    carlie

    chigau – it’s more “you don’t appreciate what a good ally I am for you” kind of stuff. Telling comment: ” but if those allies block me when I’m trying to do good for them, it’s discouraging.”

  66. 566
    Walton

    PSA: David Silverman is NOT our ally. Please check out his current Twitter meltdown.

    I’ve never been particularly impressed by him. I remember his speech at the Reason Rally, which involved shouting “WE’RE THE MARINES OF ATHEISM!!!!” at the top of his voice. *sigh*

  67. 567
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Walton

    Your UK Immigration Officers are deeply creepy. I’ve noticed this since day one.

    Very slowly, America is starting to make sense: Great Awakening.

  68. 568
    chigau (違う)

    theophontes
    Have you read this one?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-over_district

  69. 569
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Wooooooo hooooooooooo fuck yeah!

    Dentist appt in 30 mins.

    Take that internet.

  70. 570
    chigau (違う)

    Rev. BDC
    um
    yay?

  71. 571
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    Yeah. I read up about it wrt Joseph Smith Jnr and also wrt William James writings. It is only now that I have read up about the larger context of the “Awakenings”.

    Religion is a rather fascinating subject. For example: Why does it flair up so? It is much like a viral disease.

    @ Rev

    Hals- und Beinbruch?

    I went to the dentist yesterday. I had expected something like a crown at the very least. My tooth was split down the middle (or so it seemed). Thank FSM it was just a regular filling and cost me less than $70 including x-ray. She had it all done in next to no time.

    Hope everything is just as painless for you.

  72. 572
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    IIRC, Paul Johnson writes extensively about the cultural causes and impacts of religious revivals in History of the American People.

    Re: The burned-over district. Must have been something in the water. In my experience, that part of New York is not egregiously weird.

  73. 573
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Not egregiously so nowadays, unless you count a level of cynicism about religion that is rather high. I live there.

    Not to say that there aren’t religious types here – there definitely are, and I’d put the place as about average in that respect.

    But reactions of a “yeah, sure” to religious claims are pretty common. And people react pretty negatively to proselytization.

    For what that’s worth.

  74. 574
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ A.E.

    …that part of New York is not egregiously weird.

    The fever has left them. That only makes the whole matter all the more intriguing, IMO.

    @ Esteleth

    And people react pretty negatively to proselytization.

    This much I understand. They have bought into something and don’t want to switch brands. Essentially this is implied in “burned over”: Religious attitudes become fixed. People are sold on their brands. There are no more people sitting on the fence … the “convertible”, to be added to the religious pyre.

  75. 575
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Attention all Thunderdomians!

    The time to rebel is nigh! For too long have wee been oppressed by the Tardigradian Thought Police! For too long have we righteously worked to create true communism in our time and seen our efforts degraded by the Tardigrade! For too long have we seen our hard-won freedoms, our liquor, our mind-altering substances, our very cheese! withheld from our starving children by the mighty counter-revolutionary Tardigrade.

    The time to rebel is nigh! We have seen our thread renamed and we did not whimper. We have seen the banning of multiple trolls and we did not raise a voice in protest, nay, we even cheered! the banning of such as rajkummar and Danielhaven. We have seen the proliferation of committees and even committees of committees which have all had one thing in common — Tardigradian reactionary tendencies.

    The time to rebel is nigh! When was the last time the Tardigrade allowed us to lapse into text-game mode? The Tardigrade claims we must now go through WoW but withholds the cheat codes! When did we last sup the cool and nourishing depths of bad jokes? The Tardigrade claims that jokes disrupt the work ethic of his minionions but, here I am, at work, fomenting revolution (hmm, the Tardigrade may have a point there)! When did the Tardigrade last loose his control of our pharyngupharmaceuticals? The Tardigrade claims there are none left yet the Tardigrade walks into walls and giggles uncontrollably!

    Who will join me in this righteous and ethical revolution to oust the Tardigrade from his position as the Leader of People’s Thunderdome Commune and reset our rights back to the days of yore when freedom, free sex, free drugs, free liquor, and unlimited amounts of BeeGees and Barry Manilow were ours to suckle? Who will join me? The time to rebel is nigh!

  76. 576
    chigau (違う)

    Oggie
    Nah. Can’t be arsed.
    (actually, I don’t remember which side I’m on)
    (I never did get my uniform)
    (or my cyberpistol)

  77. 577
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Oggie, Your Grand Ogginess, Sir,
    Permission to speak, sir. There is a rumor afoot that your humble self was in fact in cahoots with the Tardigrade in absconding with all the pharyngupharmaceuticals. Can this vileness be true O Grand Ogginess, Sir.

    ***methinks it is true***

  78. 578
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    chigau:

    I seem to remember you were on the side of whichever grope was controlling the LOLcat Orbital Bombardment System.

    And you did get your uniform. You were born in it.

    There is a rumor afoot that your humble self was in fact in cahoots with the Tardigrade in absconding with all the pharyngupharmaceuticals.

    That rumour, that calumninous lie beneath even the feet of a Tardigrade, was planted by the TTP in an effort to preemptively proactivate the re-reactionary consciousness of the people’s unconscious.

  79. 579
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    preemptively proactivate the re-reactionary consciousness of the people’s unconscious

    in bright, vivid colors too!

  80. 580
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    in bright, vivid colors too!

    Including Octarine.

  81. 581
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Especially Octarine!

  82. 582
    Walton

    As a follow-up to my #551, please sign the petition calling for a public inquiry into the abuse of detainees at Yarl’s Wood.

  83. 583
    cicely

    Oggiebrother, you had me right up until the point where you threatened to make me suckle the BeeGees.
     
    Two of those guys are dead.
    Ewwwww!!!
    -

  84. 584
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Rob @562: my bad. Thanks for the clarification.

  85. 585
    chigau (違う)

    Ogvorbis #578
    I was bombed into submission.
    I’m still not sure which side I’m on but I’m dead sure there are more than 2 sides.
    Especially when you factor in quantumn dimensional tomatoes.

  86. 586
    birgerjohansson

    In Sweden, Lapland might qualify as a burned-over district with Laestandism and other baptist groups spreading like wildfire in the 19th century.
    In the 1920s there was a strange cult that expected the world to end and an ark to pick up the believers. The cult leader got arrested for practising group sex and other cult leader stuff.Today Lapland is probably pretty average in terms of secularism being the default.
    — — — — — — — — —
    BTW the museum here in Umeå has an exhibition titled “Queering Sapmi” (Sapmi is the sami name for Lapland) about life as being part of a minority in a minority.

    — — — — — — — — —
    Journalist, blogger and musician Kristian Gidlund passed away on Tuesday after succumbing to a fight against cancer. His life and death touched millions of Swedes via his blog “In this body of mine” http://www.thelocal.se/50330/20130919/

  87. 587
    birgerjohansson

    Jeez, I don’t understand how they had the energy left for religion considering the harsh rural life in old Lapland. Bear in mind that the strict puritanism of Laestadianism prohibited a lot of the few amusements available.
    Laestadianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laestadianism
    Korpela movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korpela_movement.

  88. 588
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Oggiebrother, you had me right up until the point where you threatened to make me suckle the BeeGees.

    Two of those guys are dead.
    Ewwwww!!!

    I was referring to the music produced by the group, not the actual people.

    I was bombed into submission.

    Alcohol consumption is counter revolutionary. As is not drinking alcohol.

    I’m still not sure which side I’m on but I’m dead sure there are more than 2 sides.
    Especially when you factor in quantumn dimensional tomatoes.

    but did he ever define spirituality? or show how it fits in with Darwin being a plagiarist?

  89. 589
    Inaji

    I am home. The studio is a mess, what with the rats being left to their own devices. Eeesh. Clean up, here I come.

  90. 590
    ledasmom

    A novel in twenty-four words, there, Caine.

  91. 591
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Welcome back Caine. Hopefully the cleaning doesn’t undo the good the clinic did.

  92. 592
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Welcome home, Caine.

    Hmm.

    Caine is finally home. The rats created chaos. They mutinied? The Caine Mutiny?

    Never mind. Tired. Wednesday.

  93. 593
    chigau (違う)

    *huggs* Caine.

  94. 594
    Ingdigo Jump

    Caine is finally home. The rats created chaos. They mutinied?

    Those bilge rats!

  95. 595
    Inaji

    Caine is considering mutiny as we type. What. A. Fucking. Mess.

  96. 596
    cicely

    Welcome home, Caine.
    :) :) :) and *big hugs*
    I do not envy you the clean-up job ahead of you.
    -

  97. 597
    David Marjanović

    *scrolls up*
    *restocks hug truck*

    =======================

    Anyway.

    It’s that time of the year again, when it’s been overdue for months that I start planning my America trip for this year.

    This is crossposted from the [Lounge]; I’ll also post it to Facebook to make sure everyone sees it, but it’s probably easiest if all responses are made in the [Lounge].

    Fixed points in space and time:

    73rd Annual Meeting of the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology, Oct. 29 – Nov. 2, in LA.
    I’ve registered and paid for that; that’s all I’ve yet done for the entire trip.

    Skepticon, Nov. 15 – 17, in Springfield, Missouri.

    Fixed points in space, but not yet in time:
    The museum visits (at least their dates) are subject to approval. I haven’t applied for any yet.

    5 days in collection of American Museum of Natural History, NYC.
    Probably 5 days in collection of Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard.
    2 days in collection of National Museum of Natural History, DC.
    Visiting uncle in Toronto.
    Visiting other uncle in Atlanta.

    Pharyngulites I’d love to meet:
    Just off the top of my head. Feel free to add yourselves to the list! It’s not a requirement that we’ve interacted much, or that we’ve met in meatspace before, or that you have a high opinion of your own awesomeness. :-)

    …let’s try to make this from northeast to southwest… chronologically it might turn out the other way around…
    This list excludes everyone whose meatspace location I happen not to know. Yet more incentive for you to add yourselves! :-) It also excludes a few people, like Caine ( + rats!) or the people on the west coast north of LA, that I have little hope of meeting for geographical reasons. :-(

    HappiestSadist & meatspace friends
    Esteleth, Sally Strange, Dark Infant, Al
    Ms. Daisy Cutter
    [oh crap, I forgot her Pharyngunym – the one with the cats in NYC, you know who you are :-) ]
    Ogvorbis
    Reality Enforcer, Mattir
    Liriodendrons
    onion girl
    People who might show up at Skepticon: Jadehawk, cicely, many more! *practices pouncehugging*
    Classical Cipher, Richard Austin

    Question:

    Rhinebeck. SOMEBODY PUT UP US THE BOMB – WHAT HAPPEN ? I mean, what happens now? Is anything planned?

  98. 598
    David Marjanović

    carlie! I forgot carlie!

  99. 599
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Glad to have you back, Caine.
    Hope they could do some good.

    ++++
    What the fuck is it with people lately constantly comparing women to cattle by equating misogyny with meat eating.
    I’m fucking sick and tired of it. There are good arguments for vegetarianism and veganism but that’s just plain insulting.

  100. 600
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Oh and yes, that means SC and HillaryRetting

  101. 601
    Inaji

    Giliell:

    What the fuck is it with people lately constantly comparing women to cattle by equating misogyny with meat eating.

    Hey, people won’t figure out women are human beings until we treat the cows right!
     
    Yeah, I know. I share your opinion as to the utility of that argument.

  102. 602
    chigau (違う)

    Giliell and Caine
    amen

  103. 603
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Giliell

    What the fuck is it with people lately constantly comparing women to cattle by equating misogyny with meat eating.
    I’m fucking sick and tired of it. There are good arguments for vegetarianism and veganism but that’s just plain insulting.

    It comes from a POV in which a human being shouldn’t be insulted by the comparison. To believe humans have more value than non-human animals is seen as speciesism in this POV. To compare women to cows isn’t meant to be an insult, because both are animals and should both be afforded respect and care and bodily autonomy. They’re trying to extend empathy beyond humans to what they see as a similar situation with animals, in which they are objectified and owned and forced to reproduce.

    I have a lot of conflicts on this topic so I’m not arguing for this point of view, just sharing how I understand it. Those who actually hold it would be better suited for explaining it–provided they do it in a thread where it’s on topic or bring it here to the Thunderdome.

  104. 604
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    It isn’t that there is no relevance to discussions of how treatment of animals overlaps with misogyny and such – there totally is and it behooves us to remember that – it is that I’m irritated at discussions of misogyny getting derailed to discuss animal welfare.

  105. 605
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Welcome home, Caine. I hope the pain clinic helped. What do the medics DO at a pain clinic? I hope scouring up after the ratties doesn’t undo all the good done (I hope) at the clinic.

  106. 606
    anteprepro

    It isn’t that there is no relevance to discussions of how treatment of animals overlaps with misogyny and such – there totally is and it behooves us to remember that – it is that I’m irritated at discussions of misogyny getting derailed to discuss animal welfare.

    I was also annoyed at the desire to shoe-horn religion into it too. Again, a good topic, but not actually THE topic. Along with the poor logic and the condescension towards atheists who don’t immediately buy into the poor logic, it is…frustrating.

  107. 607
    Inaji

    Esteleth:

    it is that I’m irritated at discussions of misogyny getting derailed to discuss animal welfare.

    That’s because the topic of misogyny is being used as a segue to jump full into a personal pet argument. (No pun intended.) There’s no desire to discuss misogyny, or intersectionality. It’s a dishonest ploy, which is why it grates. That said, it’s perfectly fine to get into all the arguments here in Tdome, so if people want to discuss it that badly, they can feel free.

    Morgan:

    What do the medics DO at a pain clinic?

    For me? Spinal shots. Had a series of them, the spine is now swimming in steroids.

  108. 608
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Caine

    That’s because the topic of misogyny is being used as a segue to jump full into a personal pet argument. (No pun intended.) There’s no desire to discuss misogyny, or intersectionality. It’s a dishonest ploy, which is why it grates.

    Yeah, it does tend to come across as a bit of but what about the men cows?

    I’m sympathetic, but it is a derail in many cases. If there’s a direct parallel or intersectional issues that can be discussed then it’s okay, but that’s a lot different from a segue into changing the topic entirely.

  109. 609
    Jacob Schmidt

    I remember one blog post by a feminist vegan comparing the arguments supporting misogyny and the arguments supporting the morality of eating meat. It’s an apt comparison, I think, demonstrating entitlement in both cases.

    The author seems to only post on vegan issues though, so I’m worried that it might just be co-option.

  110. 610
    vaiyt

    If only all but one of those “arguments” were actually worth rebutting instead of lousy borderline strawmen…

  111. 611
    vaiyt

    I’m a bit pressed for time, so I’ll try expanding on my concept a bit in order to not look like a drive-by flamer.
    She presents three “arguments” for meat-eating that she draws as a parallel to arguments for misogyny.
    - I eat animals because I can
    - I eat animals because I want to
    - I eat animals because they’re made of meat

    The only thing I could think is: that’s it? Does it even sound like what a minimally intelligent meat-eater (or even a misogynist) would argue? She calls these “mental gymnastics” when they don’t even qualify as rationalizations.
    She barely touched the almost universal appeals to nature and tradition that pervade both types of discussions, for example – now that would be something worth having a somewhat interesting argument about.

  112. 612
    vaiyt

    Argh, feel free to ignore the previous post if you want. I’m really not in the condition to analyze shit now – I ended up excising half of it for lack of time to build the argument, and besides I have seen the objections I wanted to raise addressed in other posts by the same person. Sorry about that.

  113. 613
    Jacob Schmidt

    Does it even sound like what a minimally intelligent meat-eater (or even a misogynist) would argue?

    Yes? I’ve heard them many times over. No, they aren’t the best arguments, but they’re fairly common in casual conversation from what I can tell.

  114. 614
    Inaji

    Oh gods. West feeding station, clean. Playstation East, clean. Playstation West, clean. Central condo, clean. West condo, cleaning. Third load of rat wash in.

  115. 615
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    The ratties are probably thinking, “Phooey! It took us 5 days to get everything just how we wanted it, then she comes in and messes it all up.”

  116. 616
    chigau (違う)

    And they’ll need alot of tea to fuel the re-peeing.

  117. 617
    Inaji

    I’m afraid not. They are all happily sleeping in their nice clean spaces now. I wouldn’t mind a nap myself. Ah well, almost done now.

  118. 618
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    And they’ll need alot of tea to fuel the re-peeing.

    Tea they have. The re-peeing? The peeing is ongoing…slows, never stops.

  119. 619
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    The peeing is ongoing…slows, never stops.

    Well, you could always bottle it as lager. No one would notice.

    Welcome back Caine.

  120. 620
    Inaji

    Daz:

    Well, you could always bottle it as lager. No one would notice.

    No doubt. Ratweiser!

  121. 621
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    Just read Dave Silverman’s recent tweets.

    http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18k5j277jzqwlgif/ku-xlarge.gif

  122. 622
    chigau (違う)

    I don’t do twitter and I don’t know how to read them.

  123. 623
    Lofty

    I eat tweetie pies.

  124. 624
    chigau (違う)

    @Lofty@
    @I@approve@.

  125. 625
    Jacob Schmidt

    Just read Dave Silverman’s recent tweets.

    What is his problem? Block bot blocked him so… people that don’t want to hear him don’t have to? I really do not understand.

  126. 626
    Jackie, all dressed in black

    He’s making the same arguments I’ve seen so many times before. Apparently we’re supposed to pipe down and be nice for the good of the movement. We need to put aside our “hurt feelings” and be “civil” etc….I really could flip a table. I’m going to go whip up a delicious dinner instead.
    FTN

  127. 627
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    What’s for dinner, Jackie? I’m sauteing tenderized chicken breasts in butter, garlic, shallots and white wine, then adding cream and a lot of dried tarragon. Simmer very low for an hour, yum. Accompanied by assorted steamed cruciferous veggies (cauliflower, broccoli, brussels sprouts) to be adorned with the tarragon sauce, and wild rice cooked in home made chicken stock. Oh yum, yum, yum. Cooking is a mental health activity.

  128. 628
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Dinner here at casa la pelirroja, being must be fish Friday, is talapia, long grained and wild rice, plus creamed spinach for the redhead, and broccoli with zesty cheese for me.

  129. 629
    Ingdigo Jump

    Siliverman is an ass and politician. he is trying not to alienate his base the problem is his base is awful. I think we have to just admit atheism is on the worse end of the bellcurve for sexism and general douche foolery

  130. 630
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    About “fish on Fridays.” I grew up with that, even though we were not a religious family in any way. However, my mother never met a fish she would tolerate, or a veggie, or a piece of meat that was not charred beyond recognition. She ended up with awful health problems. Me, however, could eat fish three meals a day and also for desert. The only way I got fish was because of the Catholic command for fish on Fridays. And somewhere in the back of my faltering mind there resides a tidbit of info about the economic vs religious command. More later. It is late.

  131. 631
    Rob Grigjanis

    Caine @620:

    Ratweiser!

    Pislner!

  132. 632
    chigau (違う)

    If you order a Guinness in most places in Alberta, it is served cold.

  133. 633
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Morgan

    And somewhere in the back of my faltering mind there resides a tidbit of info about the economic vs religious command.

    The Redhead grew up Episcopalian, and Queen Elizabeth I started the “fish on Friday” to help out the English fisheries as head of the church. The pope later appropriated the idea for the Mediterranean fisheries.

  134. 634
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Thank you, Nerd! I knew that I knew that, somehow or other. Isn’t it peculiar how these economic/religio commands became accepted behavior in realms not religious or at all concerned with economics?

  135. 635
    cicely

    I don’t do twitter and I don’t know how to read them.

    Me either, chigau.
    I find them terribly confusing.
    I’m sure that it’s actually easy-peasy, or there would be a lot fewer Twittererererers, but….
    -
    I remember the horrible breaded fish slabs that used to be standard Friday fare for school lunches.
    *yucky-face*
    -

  136. 636
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Isn’t it peculiar how these economic/religio commands became accepted behavior in realms not religious or at all concerned with economics?

    Actually, at casa la pelirroja, it has been more that the Redhead heard my “just put the damn fish on the plate” to mean I don’t eat fish (rather than it isn’t my first or second choice, so do your job as cook and cook it). I just see no reason Friday needs to be anywhere near the decision to eat fish. Since her stroke, it has become a ritual to serve “fish on Friday”, but it can be expanded to any seafood. For example, shrimp can be substituted.

  137. 637
    yazikus

    For example, shrimp can be substituted.

    FunFact: For Othrodox christians, fasting is mandatory (health permitting) for about half of any given year. Fasting means you are basically vegan, no meat, no dairy, no olive oil, no fish. Other sea life is treated differently. Shellfish is totes cool, octopus, shrimp, no problem! They are considered more insects than meat, and can be had during fasts.
    /ending off topic religious facts

  138. 638
    Lofty

    Who’d a thunk a bar stool could be so dangerous?

  139. 639
    Vicki, duly vaccinated tool of the feminist conspiracy

    The weird thing is the persistence of the fish=Friday thing. Not just the diners that offer clam chowder as the soup of the day every Friday, and never any other day. (They tend to go through a rotation: if there was lentil soup last Tuesday, there will be lentil soup next Tuesday.)

    A year or two ago, I noticed one of the halal food trucks in midtown Manhattan, which mostly sold chicken, lamb, and falafel, had a hand-written sign offering fish sandwiches as a Friday special. I think it’s just “we have fish on Fridays because people always have fish on Fridays,” no religious and only the vaguest of cultural reasons. I suspect that people who are still seeking fish–or avoiding meat and poultry–on Fridays for religious reasons wouldn’t trust a halal food truck.

  140. 640
    Ichthyic

    I’ve never been particularly impressed by him. I remember his speech at the Reason Rally, which involved shouting “WE’RE THE MARINES OF ATHEISM!!!!” at the top of his voice. *sigh*

    Now I’m picturing Silverman in full Steve Balmer mode…

  141. 641
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Ogvorbis #575

    It is not wise to taunt a tardigrade in tun!!!

    {The Scene: The video drone footage cuts to the centre of a large theatre-in-the-round, there a single beam illuminates a petri-dish of dried moss. Servos whirr and the foreground focus blurs. We become aware that the stage is surrounded by a giant mosh-pit of suffering: Disemvowelled comments lie bleeding, broken fragments of bigotries, and the bones of shattered arguments make up a scene of utter devastation.

    The video drone rises and rotates, its monitors now taking in the cavernous vastness of the Thunderdome. Rising higher and higher the images record its search for something. As the cameras zoom in, what had appeared to be the smooth, spheroidal perfection, now reveals spawling concrete and rust. High above the sounds of groaning and gnashing-of-teeth, the sound goes over to that of cracking ice, ripping through the vast edifice.

    The camera picks up what it was looking for in the very apex of the dome. A cold, rusted manhole cover. Zoom in to the middle of that to find a single drop of moisture, distilled from the essence of discontent, at the very point of precipitating. It’s surface reflecting all that is below.}

    @ chigau

    You are still 2IC! Have no fear, I have it on good authority that the uniforms are being shipped as we speak.

    @ Caine

    Ouch. Your treatment sounds painful. I trust things are much improved.

  142. 642
    Inaji

    Theophontes:

    Ouch. Your treatment sounds painful. I trust things are much improved.

    It’s not bad. I do get strapped to a rotating tilt table, which is serious cool, and get to watch my spine, live on monitor *oooh* during the injection. It should buy me a week or two of pain free back area.

  143. 643
    Jadehawk

    Today I discovered the existence of Native American Young Earth Creationism.

  144. 644
    Inaji

    Jadehawk:

    Today I discovered the existence of Native American Young Earth Creationism.

    :eyeroll: So, “Native American”, meaning the usual generic lump of Indian, as usual?

  145. 645
    Lofty

    Just gunna introduce the resident furries cos I can.

  146. 646
    Inaji

    I obviously can’t type better…the eyeroll was for the creationism, the question was whether or not it was tribe specific.

  147. 647
    Jadehawk

    :eyeroll: So, “Native American”, meaning the usual generic lump of Indian, as usual?

    as far as I could tell, the author was using the creation myths of several tribes, though not as interchangeable lumps, but in the “look at all these different groups telling about the same event!” sort of sense. It’s not Christian YEC, but it has some of the same stuff in it (dinosaurs and humans living together, global flood, etc.).
    I only got as far as “I don’t understand how glaciers move, therefore no interclacials” before giving up on trying to figure out what’s going on, though.

  148. 648
    Inaji

    Jadehawk:

    as far as I could tell, the author was using the creation myths of several tribes, though not as interchangeable lumps, but in the “look at all these different groups telling about the same event!” sort of sense.

    Oh. Yeah, I’m familiar with that nonsense. Look, creation stories, they all haz this stuff, it’s a sign, you know, goddidit. Yep.

  149. 649
    blf

    The Redhead grew up Episcopalian, and Queen Elizabeth I started the “fish on Friday” to help out the English fisheries as head of the church. The pope later appropriated the idea for the Mediterranean fisheries.

    Citation needed.

    (In the quotes below the emboldening of the dates is mine.)

    It does seem to be the case that “In 1563, by an act of Parliament, Elizabeth proclaimed that her countrymen had to eat fish on Wednesdays, Fridays, and Saturdays. …”

    However, another source claims that when “Edward VI, took over in 1547, fast days were reinstated by law” (Henry VIII’s break with the pope, starting c.1530, had turned fish-eating into a political act and apparently caused a significant reduction in the amount of fish being eaten).

    The above sequence suggest fish-mostly(? -only?) on Fridays was a common practice in England prior to the 16C, was interrupted during the first-ish half of the 16C, but was reinstalled by two or more laws during the 16C.

    In addition, the second source quoted above also claims:

    “Many people have searched the Vatican archives on [story of fish-on-Fridays to help the Mediterranean fishing industry], but they have found nothing,” says Brian Fagan, a professor emeritus of archaeology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, whose book, Fish On Friday, explores the impact of this practice on Western culture.

    When the practice started in the raping children cult seems a bit vague but various sources I don’t consider too reliable all imply it dates back to quite early in the cult’s history and may have pre-man-nailed-to-a-tree origins.

  150. 650
    carlie

    Caine! Glad you’re back.

    David!!! :)

    I can’t afford a full Rhinebeck-a-looza, but I could go for the day. Or if it turns out that the geographic locations of people who want to all get together skews in another direction than that part of the state, we could find something to do elsewhere that is central to whatever that group is.

  151. 651
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Gp[d ,prmoomg/ Ja[[u

    [moves hands on keyboard]

    Good morning. I hope y’all are having a good day.

    I think I have mentioned this before but, what the hell, repetition seems to be what I’m good for. I really don’t like dreaming.

    And I just shattered a tooth. A molar. And, from the location of the ache, I think I split the root.

  152. 652
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    And I just shattered a tooth. A molar. And, from the location of the ache, I think I split the root.

    OUCH OUCH OUCH. Aching in sympathy, hope you get fixed up quickly.

  153. 653
    opposablethumbs

    Ohhhh shit. Hope you can get to a dentist asap if not sooner. Ugh. Got any good analgesics in the house?

  154. 654
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Dang Oggie, my sympathies. Hope you get some good painkillers.

  155. 655
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Oggie
    Ohh, ouch. On the dream front, if I could give you my own lack of dreams, I’d do it in a heartbeat.

  156. 656
    throwaway

    There are only three times I have ever collapsed like a limp noodle onto the ground. The first time was when I had a kidney stone. The second was when I strained my MCL. The third was when I let a molar get too far decayed. My sympathies to Ogvorbis.

    =====

    Just an observation here on the Scholars thread: cdds singled out starlets (as opposed to stars) to juxtapose with athletes for the purpose of diminishing the contributions of those two groups in a utilitarian sense. I’d say that such comparisons and complaints strikes a similarity to the primitives of a certain meme, that of the nice guy deserving attention but not getting it due to jocks and cheerleaders being so damned unfairly discerning. It may just be me reading too much into it or it could be a subtle psychological tell.

  157. 657
    Nick Gotts

    Ogvorbis,

    Yow – sympathies for the shattered molar. I’ve found my own much-patched-up teeth increasingly liable to crumble as I age – I’m likely to need an extraction of an upper front incisor very soon.

    Henry VIII’s break with the pope, starting c.1530, had turned fish-eating into a political act and apparently caused a significant reduction in the amount of fish being eaten – blf@649

    So, it wasn’t really that Henry wanted to marry Anne Boleyn – it was all a piscine conspiracy!

  158. 658
    throwaway

    Fix for accuracy:

    cdds used starlets (as opposed to stars) and athletes to juxtapose with first-grade teachers and firefighters

    That just rang a few bells for me. The gender association correlation between both comparison groups is well defined for all (and specifically spelled out for ‘starlets’). Just something I found neat. Thank you for making me aware of this type of reflexive thought pattern.

  159. 659
    blf

    …it was all a piscine conspiracy!

    Absolutely. I mean, how would you like being dunked in wet slimy goo (contents and origin unclear, do not be confused by the name “batter”) and then tossed into a vat of boiling tar (again, do not be confused by the name “oil”), then served with similarly-abused potatoes (plus lots of what is called “vinegar”, either to hide to hide the taste or kill off the peas) and called “the national dish”.

  160. 660
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    So, it wasn’t really that Henry wanted to marry Anne Boleyn – it was all a piscine conspiracy!

    Sounds fishy to me.

    ———-

    My molar is not hurting right now. Even after eating lunch (salmon in a basil cream sauce with orzo, carrots and peas), no pain. I’m sure at some point it will shift out of position again and I’ll be back in the pain. And, meanwhile, my tongue is endlessly fascinated with the sharp parts of the broken tooth.

  161. 661
    Nick Gotts

    Walton@582,
    Signed.

  162. 662
    morgan ?! epitheting a metaphor

    Oggie,

    Oh, tooth owies are bad, bad owies. Please get fixed soonest.

    Re “noshing fish on specified days” My guess is that it all stems from that fishes and loaves bunk way back when. Myths be persistent buggers.

    Happy Autumnal Equinox everyone. It is my favorite time of year. Not too cold, not too hot, just right.
    I suppose you could say the same thing about spring, but I look better in fall colors than I do in pastels.

  163. 663
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Ogvorbis, I’m so sorry. Much sympathy. And still loving you.

  164. 664
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Re “noshing fish on specified days” My guess is that it all stems from that fishes and loaves bunk way back when. Myths be persistent buggers.

    My understanding is that fish did not count as eating meat because it was thought that fish reproduced asexually, that the eggs were created by the water. After all, if you have a brand new pond with no fish in it, the fish magically appear (eggs, of course, carried on the legs of water birds).

  165. 665
    Inaji

    Fish and other sea type foods were often associated with the poor, as well. People have always tended to have weird ideas about food. I don’t care for fish much, even though I grew up during the Catholic ‘fish on Fridays’ business.

  166. 666
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Fish and other sea type foods were often associated with the poor, as well

    During WWII, when my dad was young, he lived with his parents just outside of DC. They sent him to relatives up in coastal Maine during the summers (his parents both worked for NIH (or whatever the equivalent was at the time) and, what with the war and all, they had no time. His relatives in Maine had a farm near the coast. And they augmented their meagre earnings via lobster fishing. Dad remembers lobster omelettes for breakfast, lobster salad sandwiches for lunch, and lobster stew, lobster over noodles in cream sauce, steamed lobster, lobster stuffed with more lobster and baked, and every other way you can imaging cooking a lobster for dinner. Lobster was, in coastal New England, poor people’s food. And, even today, retired up in Maine, he still is not wild about lobster.

  167. 667
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    If I recall, poor 18/19th century Londoners rioted over the fact that all they had to eat was oysters.

    How times change …

  168. 668
    Walton

    Nick Gotts: Thank you!

  169. 669
    opposablethumbs

    Funny you should say that, Ogvorbis … my late grandmother used to tell us that when she was a girl (Jewish family in London) the cheap go-to food was smoked salmon. That she and her siblings would be pretty sick of the sight of it on their plates yet again. Hard for me to get my head round that! (even harder to get my head round a glut of lobster, blimey).

    Walton, I forgot to mention – I did too, when I saw the link you posted earlier.

  170. 670
    philosophia

    Is Tom Flynn’s lead editorial, The Left Is Not Always Right, in the latest Free Inquiry magazine from CFI acceptable (Oct/Nov 2013 issue)? Tom makes the following points:

    (1) Leading leftist intellectuals have been dead wrong in the past.
    (2) Postmodernism is bunk
    (3) Secular Humanists have always enjoyed diversity of political opinions, including libertarianism and conservatism.
    (4) To take gender activism as an example: While first and second wave feminism is admirable, third wave has highly questionable tenets.
    (5) Some social justice movements rely on “woo”.
    (6) There is controversy among unbelievers on some social justice movements, and that is how it should be.
    (7) National unbeliever organizations should understand that their members have a variety of political opinions.
    (8) We should acknowledge our diversity and learn from discussion.
    (9) We should concede that we don’t have to agree.

    It’s rather indirect, but it clearly implies that there are opinions on feminism different than those held here, opinions all the way to conservatism, that are respectable and that we can all learn from discussion. It seems to contradict Greta Christina’s op-ed in the previous issue that the status quo should be unacceptable to all reasonable people and her statement that we are trying to get people to admit they are wrong. What do you all think?

  171. 671
    Inaji

    It’s rather indirect, but it clearly implies that there are opinions on feminism different than those held here,

    Sure there are. Opinions are like assholes, they proliferate. Considering your history here, why don’t you just spare us all and get to whatever your point is? Saves time and aggravation.

  172. 672
    Daz: Experiencing A Slight Gravitas Shortfall

    It seems to contradict Greta Christina’s op-ed in the previous issue that the status quo should be unacceptable to all reasonable people and her statement that we are trying to get people to admit they are wrong. What do you all think?

    I think I wonder why you aren’t asking this at Greta’s blog.

  173. 673
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD.

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