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Aug 25 2013

[Thunderdome]

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

670 comments

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  1. 501
    Portia
    Sigh. I’m only morally superior to others, not typographically.

    If it helps: I read “orally”

    It does help. I pride myself on my oral superiority as well. Based on my profession, you can take that any way you wish.

  2. 502
    Portia

    NightShadeQueen:

    I laughed, and laughed. great link.

  3. 503
    Amphiox

    You seem a wee bit slow on the uptake, BS @490, so I’ll be generous and repeat it:

    Word salad is served at the OTHER table.

  4. 504
    LykeX

    @believerskeptic
    How about we try something interesting; a little experiment. For the next week, post regularly, but avoid posting:
    - plugs to your podcast, youtube channel or any other project that you’re involved with, either by link or reference.
    - comments on things that are off-topic from the subject of the thread.
    - either direct or indirect complaints about how mean everybody is to you.

    Will you try that? It would go a long way towards convincing me that you’re not just an arrogant, childish hypocrite.

  5. 505
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    On that note:

    pdoc seems to think I’m depressed/OCD. I…think I’m bipolar with some sensory issues.

    We’re going for the “kick over the ants nest” method of diffing my theory vs his – ie here’s some SSRIs. If you end up on the moon, it’s BP2.

    So. Premptively apologizing for maybe turning into a horrible human being for a while. Feel free to tell me to shut up at any time. If I’m being irrational or snippy or stupid or hell just ranting too much, feel free to tell me to go away.

    [ I'll be okay, I have many years of experience of managing my headbugs. Just apologizing early, just in case ]

  6. 506
    Portia

    NightShadeQueen:

    Damn, that sounds…unpleasant. Please partake in as much self care as possible, and I hope it all turns out ok.

  7. 507
    carlie

    believerskeptic, I find it interesting that, after being pointed to a post by Avi that is all about you, you still continue to comment here and not there, chiding everyone for commenting here and not there. Do you even see how hypocritical you’re being right now?

  8. 508
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @theophontes, 456

    From your link, I take timeout to notice that comment #1 is from elevatorgate. His entire comment?

    First

    I mean, elevatorgate is clearly engaged in reprehensible behavior if the people here have any credibility at all (and I wouldn’t be here if I thought otherwise). But I didn’t know he was in kindergarten! Seriously, my older child isn’t yet in 3rd grade and she’s given up on the need to be first, or the delusion that being first is so special that on its own it’s an accomplishment.

    Sheesh.

    But on to content. A guy who calls his blog “the Tim channel” berates PZ for being a publicity hound. He entirely dismisses the possibility that PZ **doesn’t mind** publicity and believes he has things to say that are valuable, and so says them whether publicity comes or not. No, vain PZ is evil, evil, evil, and hit his high point when he attacked a cracker. It’s all be downhill from there.

    Especially the social justice.

    Especially, especially the feminism. Which is totes unnecessary to call out in the Atheist community. So why did PZ throw the grenade if it’s unnecessary?

    Well, after the post by Jen McCreight on Krauss, there was chaos:

    The terrorists at the American Girlyban headquarters in Morris Minnesota, just smart enough to be able to read a cease and desist order, had to find another patsy posthaste.

    And so???

    How did we get that grenade, Tim?

    Mr. Shermer just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. … Mr. Shermer, as of late, has been fairly critical of the #Atheismplus movement himself. Under the rules that the #atheismplus movement has adopted (from Scientology), Mr. Shermer is now fair game. PZ has a book to sell.

    Oh. I see. We’re not challenging sexism because we think it’s good to challenge sexism. We’re all just helping PZ sell his book.

    That’s good news & bad news. Bad news? I haven’t bought his book and won’t likely ever – I’m too poor now, and by the time I have an actual attorney’s salary I will either have read it from the library or gone blind from wading through documentary evidence.

    Good news? If there was sexism among atheists [and Tim assures us that there is no motivation other than fame-seeking for the behavior of PZ and no motivation other than following PZ for his minions, thus we can dismiss the sexism-among-atheists charge] well, then I might have to seriously question whether the not-at-all-fame-seeking Tim from the Tim Channel who uses the link-bait post-title “Raping Atheists” might itself contain some sexism in his statement:

    A man tends to lose his edge if he spends every weekend braiding hair and painting the toenails of fawning college groupies. Whocouldanode?

    Phew.

    You know, there’s a tremendous amount of luck on the part of the FtB haters, I’ve noticed. At the same time evidence appears that might possibly support a sexism-among-atheists model, they’ve always just discovered much stronger evidence – in this case that PZ was photographed on a plastic triceratops, which is the main way people get interviewed on Rachel Maddow these days – that makes the model entirely unreasonable to believe.

    Boy, I wish I had that kind of luck. Maybe I would have the cash to buy the book my tentacular overlord commands.

  9. 509
    David Marjanović

    A guy who calls his blog “the Tim channel” berates PZ for being a publicity hound. He entirely dismisses the possibility that PZ **doesn’t mind** publicity and believes he has things to say that are valuable, and so says them whether publicity comes or not. No, vain PZ is evil, evil, evil, and hit his high point when he attacked a cracker. It’s all be downhill from there.

    That guy used to be a regular here! Kept spamming for his blog. I don’t remember if he was banned or otherwise understood he was getting annoying, but annoying he was.

    In other words, he’s projecting. He’s a lighthouse in front of a bright white cliff.

    So why did PZ throw the grenade if it’s unnecessary?

    I get that urge to insert the Laconic reply…

    well, then I might have to seriously question whether the not-at-all-fame-seeking Tim from the Tim Channel who uses the link-bait post-title “Raping Atheists” might itself contain some sexism in his statement:

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. X-D

  10. 510
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    Portia

    Firstly, best of luck to you too :D

    Secondly, I’m expected to turn into a bubbly insomniac with all of the energy in the world, so it shouldn’t be unpleasant :D

  11. 511
    SallyStrange

    You got me, BS. I’m a horrible person cuz I love feeling right. Sadly, the irritation engendered by your posts far outweighs any pleasure I get from being smarter and better than you. So. What’s it going to take to get you to fuck on out of this wretched hive of scum and villainy?

  12. 512
    Inaji

    Carlie:

    believerskeptic, you may want to check this out. No, really.

    How interesting. Thanks, Carlie!

  13. 513
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Caine

    the proliferation of authors who never use the word boy to describe or refer to an adult male, while always using the word girl to describe or refer to an adult female.

    I don’t know that it’s fair to call it a proliferation, per se, in that I don’t notice that it’s any more prevalent than it used to be. Admittedly, while I tend to make certain allowances for H Beam Piper doing it, being as he was writing a half-century ago, that I’m not willing to make for more current authors, who haven’t really got an excuse. Beyond the sexism, it’s just shitty writing, because it impairs the descriptions of the characters; I’ve seen the phrase ‘a young girl’ used to describe characters who were anywhere from 4 to 24, and that makes a big fucking difference to the story which it is. (Generally, I prefer to limit the use of girl and boy to preadolsecents, after which I would tend to use ‘young [wo]man’ until their early 20s.)

  14. 514
    Inaji

    Well, BS, you got lots of attention from Avicenna, and in the comments, PZ offered to ban you here, so you’d have all the time you need to comment on other blogs, and fix the world, as you seem convinced you can do.

    I would like to know if you have yet figured out that Avicenna is not black, and just how idiotic your assumption happened to be. I’d also like to know if you’ve figured out which of the people here are PoC.

  15. 515
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I pride myself on my oral superiority … you can take that any way you wish.

    Phew! Is it hot in here, or is it just Portia?

  16. 516
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    David Marjanović, thetimchannel was never banned. But also, he never got much interaction from the horde. It seems most just found him annoying but not SteveoR level annoying. Except for people telling him to stop blog whoring, he was ignored.

    He stopped showing up here during the shitstorm centered around Rebecca Watson and Richard Dawkins. Hell, I did not even notice he was no longer here. Not until later when I would check out slyme related sites and see him commenting.

    Damn good thing he was self aware enough to avoid saying shit like “American Girlyban” when he did comment here. He would have been trolled stomped.

    No great loss when he stopped commenting here.

  17. 517
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Phew! Is it hot in here, or is it just Portia?

    The older air-cooled Portias tend to run quite hot. They switched to water cooled engines in the newer Portias to meet emissions standards. Of course, if you really flog a water cooled Portia, it might run hot.

  18. 518
    Ze Madmax

    believerskeptic @ #490

    I’m wondering if today is the day when one of the Pharyngula regulars will have the intellectual honesty to admit that the motivation for the Neverending Gotcha Contest taking place here is not so much to help others realize the hidden prejudices that are encoded into language so that we’ll all be better people for it, but rather instead to feel smug and superior to someone else

    So… Mr. “I don’t drink because it’s the morally superior option” is claiming people police language to feel smug? What is this I don’t even

  19. 519
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Crypdyke

    I get the impression from these people, that they are simply incapable of understanding that most people are not like them at all. Whatever shallow impulses drive their thinking and their comments, they cannot but help impute to all and sundry (as DM indicates).

    It is asif we are all actually playing their game (in all its reactionary glory). We are then all guilty of being just like them. Only, we are inferior to them in being hypocrites, rather than the honest truth seekers they believe themselves to be. Their bigotry is the natural way of the world, only by embracing that fact can one be held virtuous in their eyes.

    Bleeaugh!

    ([hypothetical] Even if they are right to hold human nature in such disdain, I would point out the difference is that we reject our natures and seek to rise above ourselves, rather than grovel about as they do.)

  20. 520
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Believerskeptic:
    I have had enough of your whining you arrogant asshole.
    YOU came barging to Pharyngula making statements, getting called out for them and feeling like people were being mean to you.
    YOU are the one variously touting your moral superiority:
    1- your fucking ongoing Lesswrong obsession that you are pissed off we do not agree with
    2- your assertion that consuming alcohol makes one morally inferior to one who does not
    3- your assertion that using swear words makes one morally inferior to one who does not.
    4- your smug attempt to show how much more interested in SJ you are bc you read one thread at A Million Gods where many of us did not.

    You are so fucking full of yourself, as seen by all the above. I think Portia may have been right–you have not shaken off the shackles of your religious training. Said training has probably raised you to think certain activities are morally superior to others, despite having no moral component at all.
    You think the world must cater to you:
    “Waaaaah the mean old Horde corrected me when I made some stupid comments.”
    “GO GO GO LOOK AT MY PODCAST. I TALKED ABOUT THIS. COME WATCH ME. PAY ATTENTION TO ME.”
    “Lesswrong should be on everyones radar. Its on mine. Why are you not paying attention to it.

    NEWSFLASH you Sparkling Shithead, the world does not revolve around you and your desires.

    FUCK OFF.

  21. 521
    Portia

    CD and Og:

    I giggled way too loud in public. Thank you.

    There’s a joke about fluids here, but I’m not going to make it.

  22. 522
    cicely

    Of course, if you really flog a water cooled Portia, it might run hot.

    It might also become quite (orally) hostile….
    -

  23. 523
    PZ Myers

    A guy who calls his blog “the Tim channel” berates PZ for being a publicity hound.

    Oh, jeez, I remember him: every comment ended with “Enjoy”. Also, every comment was a plug for his blog — he’d literally say, “Come read my blog! Enjoy.” to every post. And that’s what he got banned for: nonstop spamming.

  24. 524
    PZ Myers

    No more wondering. Today is the day. Today is the day believerskeptic was putted out the door with a gentle tap of the banhammer.

  25. 525
    chigau (違う)

    and PZ has a flashback…
    poor blindbelieverskepticlabyrinth

  26. 526
    carlie

    Is it hot in here, or is it just Portia?

    It’s totally Portia. :)

    And yet, believerskeptic still hasn’t commented on Avicenna’s post.

  27. 527
    Akira MacKenzie

    Oh! While I got the chance, how did the radio interview go this morning?

  28. 528
    sethmassine

    Fortunately, I have a damn-fine unemployment deal coming my way….so the loss of said job hasn’t damaged me too much. Thank you all for the comments. At any rate, who in the blazes is this believerskeptic? I haven’t kept up with recent happenings

  29. 529
  30. 530
    sethmassine

    Seems I missed out on a fuck bag, huh? Damn. I was so drunk earlier. I would have made em cry.

  31. 531
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Oh. He did get banned.

    Meh. Like I said, I did not even notice when he stopped showing up.

  32. 532
    Inaji

    Seth:

    Seems I missed out on a fuck bag, huh? Damn. I was so drunk earlier. I would have made em cry.

    Oh, nope. BS was a narcissistic spammer, who made it quite clear that he was veddy morally superior to anyone who ever had a drink. Oh my yes.

  33. 533
    sethmassine

    I always miss out on the morons. PZ kicked his ass out though, so that’s good. What kinda stuff was he going on about? I mean, specifics? It almost sounds like he was a bible thumper

  34. 534
    LykeX

    Believerskeptic’s shtick was basically two-fold:

    1) Blatant self-promotion. Constant references to his work, youtube and podcast and his personal hobby-horse, LessWrong. Basically, anything that made him the main topic.

    2) Playing the victim. Any criticism was a witch hunt. Any pointing out of his mistakes or idiotic behavior was ableism because he had depression and won’t we all be sorry that such a great ally, who was going to do so much good work for the cause, will now take his ball and go home.

    I think, deep down, he was probably a good guy, but he needs to seriously grow up before he comes back.

  35. 535
    sethmassine

    I see….his own hero, eh? I’ve known many individuals who fit neatly into that bracket. Sad, because many of them, possibly including this one (as you mentioned) are actually decent folk. Just need to be a bit more humble.

  36. 536
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Sethmassine:
    My comment upthread encapsulates the reasons I came to dislike him.

    Btw, have you ventured over to the Lounge? It is the other social thread. Some like it, some do not. It moves at a rapid pace compared (at times) to the Dome.

  37. 537
    throwaway

    the motivation for the Neverending Gotcha Contest taking place here is not so much to help others realize the hidden prejudices that are encoded into language so that we’ll all be better people for it, but rather instead to feel smug and superior to someone else

    Fucking telepath.

    I thought like this a long, long time ago. My first reaction to seeing gendered/ableist slurs being put beyond the pale was along those lines: how dare these people tell me how to behave, or that I‘ve been wrong, and that what I wish to continue doing is wrong! I got better.

    I realized it wasn’t arrogance on their part, it was ignorance on my part. I recognized the part of me which was still like a child, desperately clawing for independence by shirking the dicta and proscription of anyone – even those with good reasons behind them which I chose not to hear. When I saw the laconic form of my argument for using the words boiled down to “Fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me!” it took some kicking of my own ass to dislodge that primal reaction and actually absorb the argument about the effects of those words on those affected. My compassion grew three sizes that day.

    And I thank the Horde. I recognize that I am better for it. Not that they were better than me or that they had any inclination to believe that they were superior, or exhibit such superiority by calling someone on their transgressions. It was simply that way because they knew that I, and those like myself, are part of a society which raised such indifference and callousness which create an environment where some people do not feel safe or welcome. I didn’t let myself get tangled up in the illusion that not affecting people negatively was impacting my individuality any more than not being able to punch someone in the nose was doing so either.

    There’s your alternative motivation explanation. I believe it’s more factual and reality based. Wise up.

  38. 538
    Pteryxx

    …from somewhere in the Newsstands thread…

    Wait, so the pubic hair is there so the babies can pull themselves out?
    I also call for most epic derail. And I’m going to stop now

    http://www.cracked.com/article/161_6-things-your-body-does-every-day-that-science-cant-explain_p2/

    Hell, there was even an old hypothesis that says–and get ready to cringe here–our short and curlies exist to give babies something to grab and hold onto. Are you picturing it? Come on! Picture it! Couple of dudes, talking casually near their cave, each with a newborn clinging to their bush.

    Any of you new parents out there, grab your infant and try this, see if his evolutionary instincts will kick in and make him grab onto your carpet. Report your results in the comments!

    …aaaaaand I think that’s enough internet for a while. YUP

  39. 539
    sethmassine

    Tony, I don’t think I have ever made my way to the Lounge, but I will try it. Thank you :) I read what you said (unintentional rhymes, I swear) regarding the individual in question, and based upon what others have said, he sounds like a real arse. I can’t stand when people feel so entitled, and present themselves as devoid of flaws. Quite annoying. I had a friend in my youth who was much like this. He was homophobic, misogynistic, and a creationist to boot (wait….the latter two see the third as an eventuality….my bad), and he acted as if those were merits. Truly frustrating.

  40. 540
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Oh, teh poor widdle fuckfaced racist warmongering assclam shows up in a thread to whine about how people use harsh words and abuse him. Oh the horrors of being held accountable for your own goddamn words, StevoR. Keep playing that victim card you shitstain.

    I note that he never once responds to any links to evidence of how ineffective the drone bombings are. Nope, he continues along with his love of authoritarianism, and does not let facts get in his way.

    You racist asswitgot, you support policies that kill innocents, are not as effective as you believe, and are pissing people off…to the point where I can easily see them striking back against us.
    Here, once again, FACTS, you disgusting fucker:

    http://www.alternet.org/world/5-big-myths-used-justify-death-drone-and-americas-imperial-assassination-policy?paging=off
    Myth #1: They Target High Level Terrorists

    Only two percent of drone strikes have killed “high value targets,” former counter-terror advisor to David Patreus, David Kilcullen, notoriously remarked in a New York Times column early in the Obama presidency, where he said that 50 civilians were killed for every “high-valuetarget” assassinated. That means that 98 percent of drone-caused deaths have been a mix of low-levelmilitants,civilians,or another dubious Pentagon classification called “unknown militants.”
    [...]

    Myth#2: Drones Are Accurate

    The Pentagon rhetoric touting “pin point” and “laser” accuracy of drones is baseless. Dr. Larry Lewis, a principal research scientist at the Center for Naval Analyses, a research group with close ties to the US military, studied the record in Afghanistan and found that drone strikes were no more accurate than traditional air power. So, after all this talk about the ability to discern enemies through surveillance, they are no more accurate traditional fly-bys. Thisrhetoric has allowed us to kill innocent children.
    [...]

    Myth #3: Drone Targets Imminently Threaten America

    The mainstream media have played into the CIA/Administration’s selective leaks about drones, especially the concept of a “kill list.” This military branding conjures up a process of carefully selected enemies who pose imminent threats to the U.S. However, the reality of “signature strikes” undercuts this P.R. construction.

    Never officially acknowledged by the administration, signature strikes target unknown suspected militants who display “pattern of live” behavior associated with Al Qaeda and the Taliban. What the “patterns” consist of is officially a secret. What we do know is that as soon as signature strikes were implemented there was a spike in number of drone strikes and the number people killed in strikes.

    [...]

    Myth #5: Drones Are Making Americans Safer

    They are not, in fact. Not only are drones effectible destabilizing a nuclear power, Pakistan,in oneof themost conflict-ridden regions of the world, they are inciting waves of suicide bombers to attack Pakistan.They arealso directly threatening the U.S.

    In a global age connectivity there is a new phenomenon of self- radicalization. People who identify with the Muslim Diaspora are seeing their kinsmen being murdered by America in a most brutal way. The Boston Marathon bombers are only the latest example of this phenomenon. The most notorious self-radicalized terrorist was Faisal Shahzad, who, in 2010, tried to blow up New York’s Times-Square. When asked about his motive, he directly cited drones.

    If you thought of Muslims as human beings deserving of the same human rights you possess, I hope you would see why your irrational fears are unjustified. But you have no problem with drones killing some people with brown skin if it means getting those mid level terrorists you think are hiding outside your door.

    Being vehemently criticized and excoriated for reprehensible, abominable views is not abuse. You are being held accountable. You are being judged in the court of public opinion and found guilty of being a racist asshole.

  41. 541
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Oh, teh poor widdle fuckfaced racist warmongering assclam shows up in a thread to whine about how people use harsh words and abuse him.

    Standard behaviour. StevoR has never let an opportunity to whine pass.

  42. 542
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @381. chigau (違う) :

    We need a troll.
    Where is annejones?
    Where is StevoR?

    Well I’m here although I’m not a troll or what some here are under the mistaken impression that I am.

    I comment here less regularly now – maybe thrice or twice a week – because I’ve been really busy lately with work and study and life generally. No doubt some here will be happy that I no longer have as much time and energy for arguing here that I used to.

    But, as I’ve said before I’m not being bullied off this blog by a some people who hate me based on their own misunderstandings of who and what I really am.

    There’s always so many comments so quickly here it gets a bit overwhelming – especially when you’;re being dog-piled and bullied.

  43. 543
    Ingdigo Jump

    Tony StevoR has been told all this before, he just doesn’t care because he is the horrible hate machine he claims we straw man him as.

    StevoR no one hates you for misunderstanding, they hate you because they understand you.

    May I remind you fucking pestered me demanding to know HOW HOW HOW!? I could have Muslim friends, including following it into other threads after I told you to STFU about it?

  44. 544
    Arawhon, a Strawberry Margarita

    SteveoR, just drop your smarmy little title in your nym. I read that and read what you have posted before about your little hatefest for muslims and you come across as a disingenuous little racist asshole willing to appropriate the struggles of others so people can’t criticize your hate. (Daisy cutter bombs. I watched an actual daisycutter deployment while the Iraq war was being videotaped live, that shit is fucking scary and should be made a war crime. Thankfully I didnt see anyone get killed by the bombs. So you’re a disgusting douchecanoe for even suggesting it fucking once.) Also you are being held accountable for saying some incredibly racist shit. Own up to it and apologize and stop refusing the ladder we keep offering out of that hole you’ve dug halfway to China . You would still need to do some serious fucking soul searching and fix your weird obsession with scary brown turbaned people.

  45. 545
    Ingdigo Jump

    Oh someone a while back dug up comments of his off site that showed his “mercy” isn’t limited to Arabs. He is an authoritarian thug

  46. 546
    Arawhon, a Strawberry Margarita

    Wrong war, it was the Afghanistan one that daisy cutters were used in. Or it was Iraq and I’m thinking of a different bomb. Doesn’t matter, SteveoR is still a racist asshole and warmonger.

  47. 547
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Ingdigo:
    Oh, I know.

    If he wasn’t such an assclown, his cries of being bullied might be just amusing enough to be pathetic. However, he is a huge assclown. To him of course, lacking in self awareness as he is, StevoR is the hero of the piece, and we are the evildoers, despite all evidence to the contrary.

  48. 548
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Stevie you are capable of amazing feats of being both incredibly boring and amazingly annoying concurrently.

  49. 549
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @541. Caine, Fleur du mal : Oh , I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of those opportunities actually.

    Also your idea of what’s “whining” versus “pointing out the facts” or “providing a different viewpoint / perspective” may be an area where mileage differs. Don’t want me to respond to personal attacks against me? Then, don’t make personal abusive attacks.

    @540. Tony! The Immorally Inferior Queer Shoop! :

    Oh, teh poor widdle fuckfaced racist warmongering assclam shows up in a thread to whine about how people use harsh words and abuse him.

    Really? If you meant the ‘Dang comments’ thread I was referring broadly and generally to the reality that this blog has a bit of a nasty reputation online for allowing more personal abuse than is usually considered reasonable and for swearing which limits the audience due to net filters being NSFW etc .. rather than my experience specifically.

    Oh the horrors of being held accountable for your own goddamn words, StevoR. Keep playing that victim card you shitstain.

    Yup, no evidence of me being made a victim there much! /sarcasm.

    I’ve already apologised for and clarified a few past posts a long time ago in which I went OTT so I’ve already been accountable for my words.

    Also seriously, Tony, what dafuck have I ever done to you to deserve this level of constant hatred and venom directed my way from you? Did I wrong you in past life or something? Worst thing I’ve done here is argue reasonably against the Horde consensus on a couple of topics – hardly a crime!

    I note that he never once responds to any links to evidence of how ineffective the drone bombings are. Nope, he continues along with his love of authoritarianism, and does not let facts get in his way.

    False. I have responded previously on that topic noting somewhere in a past discussion on this issue – will have to go back and find link -that the source for the “evidence” was biased and dubious. Since you have made a point of NOT reading my links or wanting to talk with me I’ve previously responded in like kind by not talking to you – but since you insist now.

    You racist asswitgot, you support policies that kill innocents,

    ..and also probably save more innocent lives by preventing Jihadist terrorist attacks on others incl. against innocent Muslim civilians.

    ..are not as effective as you believe,..

    Citation badly needed.

    Also isn’t me you have to convince its the experts who are running the counter-terrorism, war on Jihadist Terror military operations. Doesn’t it occur to you that hey, just perhaps, the experts and those with the greatest legal and ethical responsibility here may know what they’re doing? (More than say random blog commenters like ourselves?)

    .. and are pissing people off…

    Pissing them off? How can they be made any more pissed of and genocidally furious than they already are? The Jihadists reached maximum rage saturation aeons ago. We’re talking about groups like Al Quaida, the Taliban, Hamas here remember! (Hint : if you find yourself defending them then its a huge sign you need to stop and reconsider whose side you’re on!)

    Saw on the news recently that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt held a “Day of Rage.” Well, seriously, how could you tell the difference? When was the last time one of these frothing at the mouth whackjob mullahs came across as happy,calm and cheerful? When have the Islamists ever been other than furious and miserable? Whether seeking to murder writers and cartoonists, shoot schoolgirls for the “crime” of learning or wipe Israel off the map the goals that would make these Islamists happy or at least slightly less ragingly mad at us, are horribly unacceptable.

    What do you want us to do, Tony, to appease these Jihadists? Throw Israel and another six million plus Jews under the bus? Throw women’s rights like Malala Yousufzai, Taslima Nasreen’s and her friends under the bus? Hell, the Islamists want homosexuals gone, erased just as they want Jews and basically everyone who disagrees with them gone and then you have the gall to accuse me of being “racist” and “genocidal” and suchlike shit because I’m saying : “Hang on a minute – we have to defend ourselves against this mob!”?

    The alternative is what? Conversion? Death? Gee, what shall we choose?!

    ..to the point where I can easily see them striking back against us.

    Whoah. Talk about a short memory!

    They’ve been striking at – not “back” as we didn’t start this war remember -since at least the 11th of September 2001. That’s the day this whole war started with the unprovoked attack on innocent civilians in the World Trade Centre. Although in a wider sense their jihad upon the rest of us began even before that – the Iranian revolution and PLO terrorism of the 1970′s; the 1948 formation of Israel and the war the Jewish nation had to fight to survive; heck it probably goes all the way back to when Mohammad’s followers first stormed out of the Arabian desert and started conquering Zoroastrian Persia and the Byzantine empire. Or even with their deluded child-molesting ancient warlord “prophet’s” very first campaign of terror and war against his pagan Arab neighbours who didn’t believe he was Teh Wun or were skeptical of his extraordinary claim about being visited by an angel in a cave.

    They struck first, they are still trying to murder us and others en masse now and we have a responsibility to ourselves and the rest of the world to protect others from them. That’s the plain reality. Not myth. You might want to check the basis of your source for that myths stuff and the reliability of its facts and sources.

    Anyway as noted, its not me you need to convince but the US military leadership and I dare say they know a few things that you and I don’t and also are much better, more thoughtful people than popular caricature here might claim.

    If you thought of Muslims as human beings deserving of the same human rights you possess,

    I do. Also I’m talking about Jihadists not Muslims.

    Muslims are human beings who deserve and have the same rights as all other humans.

    Non-violent Muslims living at peace with the rest of us are fine and I’ve no problem with them.

    But Islamist Jihadists who want to commit terrorist atrocities that murder and harm others? Well, as the saying famously goes, “your right to swing your fist stops at my nose” remember!

    I hope you would see why your irrational fears are unjustified.

    I wish they were “unjustified” – just as I wish my fears about Global Climate Change were unjustified. But you might want to look again at the whole cause of the War on Terror – at the statements I quoted before from Hamas, at the words and videos of Al Quaida, the Taliban etc .. No, there’re entirely justified by the evidence and the long and ongoing history of Islamist violence and terrorism which you, Tony, and some others here seem to be in denial about. Frankly, I think Terrorist Deniers are just as bad as Global Overheating ones really, both sets ignoring real and grave threats to our future.

    … But you have no problem with drones killing some people with brown skin if it means getting those mid level terrorists you think are hiding outside your door.

    I could not care less what skin colour or specifically genetically determined features a Jihadist killer or would-be killer has. That’s where you go so horribly and ridiculously wrong. There have been US and Aussie terrorists too, many non-Arab non-”brown” converts to Islam are more fanatical than those raised Muslim from birth.

    Skin colour or “race” is irrelevant.

    The fact that they are trying to kill us – OTOH, that’s very relevant.

    I’m sure know US does its best to minimise innocent collateral damage just as I’m equally sure the Jihadists do their absolute best to maximise and exploit the collateral damage that inevitably happens. Non-Jihadist deaths in these operations hurt our side and help the Jihadists so it’d be crazy if it were otherwise.

    Because of their tactics especially and the fact that there wouldn’t be this situation without them I hold the Jihadist side entirely responsible for *all* the casualties in this current global war.

    This war can only end when the Jihadists stop trying to kill us.

    I want this war to end ASAP and I want it to end well for everyone except the Jihadist scum who caused it. I’d love it if the moderate non-Jihadists Muslims ended this war free and happy and prosperous especially those groups within the Muslim community who’ve been most oppressed by the Jihadist factions. I’d love to see a Muslim reformation or enlightenment type period happen following this where they left the worse elements of their religion behind.

    Being vehemently criticized and excoriated for reprehensible, abominable views is not abuse. You are being held accountable. You are being judged in the court of public opinion and found guilty of being a racist asshole.

    That’s your erroneous opinion. Since when are *you* the “court of public opinion” or my judge Tony? Not that courts of public opinion are always right anyhow.

    I’m definitely, positively 100% NOT what you have so wrongly and abusively claimed I am.

    If haven’t proven that already well, hell, tell me what would convince you?

    If the answer is – as seems – nothing then that that tells you far more about yourself and your prejudice against me than it does about about me.

  50. 550
    Portia

    shoot schoolgirls for the “crime” of learning

    Not that counter-evidence to your Israel obsession matters to you.

    Fuck off.

  51. 551
    Inaji

    Y’know, StevoR, something I didn’t say in the ‘comments’ thread – I’m seriously in favour of anything which makes posting more difficult for you. I don’t want one thing to be easy for you to do here, because what I want is for you to get a fucking clue and leave. I do not like you. At all. You’re a compleat racist, you embrace loathsome ideas and monstrous acts. When you aren’t doing that, you stuff yourself in a bottle of self pity and become a maudlin whiner. No, no, I don’t want anything to be easy for you.

  52. 552
    Anthony K

    If haven’t proven that already well, hell, tell me what would convince you?

    I’ll tell you.

    Don’t say things like:

    They’ve been striking at – not “back” as we didn’t start this war remember -since at least the 11th of September 2001.

    It’s patently wrong. The CIA just admitted its involvement in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953. Just for one example of the history of the involvement between the US and the Middle East. They admitted it. And you blithely say patently idiotic shit like “They started it, I mean, if you count 9/11 at least.” Can’t you see how fucking stupid that is?

    This is the kind of thing that demonstrates you’re a bigot. It shows the contempt you have for facts. Frankly, that you continue to play this game after how many years demonstrates that there’s something wrong with your head. You’re not going to convince anyone here you’re not a bigot, precisely because the things you say are bigoted things. I know you can’t see that because you’re extremely stupid (and possibly drunk again), but that’s the truth.

    Now, go right ahead and claim this comment as part of your persecution complex. I don’t fucking care. This is pretty much the maximum interaction I want to have with you. You’re loathsome and creepy. But you need to sort yourself the fuck out.

  53. 553
    Anthony K

    Whoah. Talk about a short memory!

    And then you say shit like this. Like, what the fuck man? Are you not aware how little fucking history you know? People talk about it here, to you, so you can’t claim accidental ignorance. It’s like when people tell you things, your brain cuts in and screams “9/11!” and you can’t think of anything else. Do you think if you scream “9/11!” loud enough people here are going to suddenly like you? Especially when you’re smarmily proud of your ignorance?

    It’s been years, man. You didn’t make a bad first impression. You made a bad every impression. Can you comprehend that?

    Fuck, it’s like I don’t know what even.

  54. 554
    Rob Grigjanis

    Doesn’t it occur to you that hey, just perhaps, the experts and those with the greatest legal and ethical responsibility here may know what they’re doing?

    After Vietnam, Cambodia, gun laws, tax laws, the War on Drugs, Star Wars, giving the finger to the UN, torture, failing on climate change, mass outsourcing of jobs, financial disaster, utter contempt for the poor, general suckupage to corporations, corroding civil rights, etc? Why, no, StevoR. It should never occur to any person with two neurons to rub together, a vestigial conscience, and the slightest grasp of history.

  55. 555
    Ingdigo Jump

    I like how he still expects to gaslight people here

  56. 556
    Inaji

    Anthony K:

    People talk about it here, to you, so you can’t claim accidental ignorance.

    Even when things people say get through to StevoR in an odd moment, such as being repeatedly told he’s being a bigot, he’ll then turn around and post something in an attempt to prove he’s not a bigot, and use a phrase like “melanin-enriched” or the like* when talking about someone.

    *I no longer remember if it was “melanin-enriched” or “melanin-enhanced”, nor do I care. It was a glaring example of just how deep StevoR’s bigotry runs, because he was actually making an effort that time, to not come across as an asshole bigot.

  57. 557
    Inaji

    Rob:

    After Vietnam, Cambodia, gun laws, tax laws, the War on Drugs, Star Wars, giving the finger to the UN, torture, failing on climate change, mass outsourcing of jobs, financial disaster, utter contempt for the poor, general suckupage to corporations, corroding civil rights, etc? Why, no, StevoR. It should never occur to any person with two neurons to rub together, a vestigial conscience, and the slightest grasp of history.

    QFMFT.

  58. 558
    chigau (違う)

    I really don’t know why We™ are keeping StevoR.
    Does PZ have a Plan®?

  59. 559
    Ingdigo Jump

    @chigau

    He apparently has not broken rules to the point of banworthy yet.

    He pretty much does the “I’m not touching you” thing where he skirts up to the edge and then backs down so he can do it all over again

  60. 560
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    After Vietnam, Cambodia, gun laws, tax laws, the War on Drugs, Star Wars, giving the finger to the UN, torture, failing on climate change, mass outsourcing of jobs, financial disaster, utter contempt for the poor, general suckupage to corporations, corroding civil rights, etc? Why, no, StevoR. It should never occur to any person with two neurons to rub together, a vestigial conscience, and the slightest grasp of history.

    For that matter, I’m willing to wager that given a list of the specific people who have direct legal and ethical responsibility for the drone strikes, I could find numerous other cases where those specific individuals exhibited one or both of horrific failures of judgement and acts of clear, deliberate cruelty and malice. Usually both.

  61. 561
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    Does PZ have a Plan®?

    Nah. StevoR skirts the line, often crosses it, but then scurries off for a while before coming back to start up all over again, which generally keeps the Horde from an obnoxious chorus of complaint. He also mostly keeps himself to Tdome, where he knows he’s more likely to get away with his bigoted shit.

  62. 562
    chigau (違う)

    Ingdigo Jump
    yeah
    I know.
    I am weary of it.

  63. 563
    Inaji

    It’s also good to keep in mind that StevoR is Australian. Why the hell he has such a jingoistic jones for the States, I don’t know.

  64. 564
    Ingdigo Jump

    @Caine

    StevoR seems to have an instinctive fetish and alignment to ANY authoritarianism and militarism: real or fictional. See the Ender’s Game thing where he went further than OSC in demonizing the enemy there and insisting it was a story of people doing what had to be done

  65. 565
    Inaji

    I just introduced the Rats to marshmelons* coated with toasted coconut. They are excited. And happy. And munching.

    *marshmallows.

  66. 566
    chigau (違う)

    Caine
    yes
    He also comments on other FtB blogs without mentioning the need to bomb random brown people.
    but I am sooooo tired of him.

  67. 567
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @543. Ingdigo Jump :

    Tony StevoR has been told all this before, he just doesn’t care because he is the horrible hate machine he claims we straw man him as. StevoR no one hates you for misunderstanding, they hate you because they understand you.

    You are entitled to your erroneous opinion. However it is exactly that – erroneous.

    May I remind you fucking pestered me demanding to know HOW HOW HOW!? I could have Muslim friends, including following it into other threads after I told you to STFU about it?

    That’s your view perhaps but I asked politely and yes, ok, repeated the question a few times because you refused to answer in an attempt to understand because it really baffled me. I also stopped asking too if I recall right. (This may have been one of these need to refresh /see more comments first issues?)

    @ 544. Arawhon :

    SteveoR, just drop your smarmy little title in your nym.

    No – because,whether you believe it or not, I genuinely do care and want West Papua and Tibet freed from their oppressors and the Chagossians allowed to return to their homes. I think these are three issues we don’t hear enough about and I think we should be reminded of them and focus on these genuine issues a lot more.

    I read that and read what you have posted before about your little hatefest for muslims(1)
    and you come across as a disingenuous little racist asshole willing to appropriate the struggles of others so people can’t criticize your hate. (2)

    (1) Wrong. I don’t hate Muslims – I do hate Jihadist terrorists. Major distinction there.

    (2) Well that may be so – to you – but if so that s false and no doubt coloured by the the lies and abuse others here have spewed against me. Try reading my comments here with an open mind and also reading the words that I’ve actually written rather than what others with an axe to grind against me have written please.

    (Daisy cutter bombs. I watched an actual daisycutter deployment while the Iraq war was being videotaped live, that shit is fucking scary and should be made a war crime. (A) Thankfully I didnt see anyone get killed by the bombs. So you’re a disgusting douchecanoe for even suggesting it fucking once.(B)

    (B) That was a mistaken attempt at grim humour and NEVER a serious suggestion. It was also made in response to someone joking or not suggesting using nuclear WMDs and during a wartime situation when the target here was the source of hundreds or even thousands of rockets being fired at innocent civilians.
    I have since many times made it clear that I do NOT support the use of daisycutters on anyone.

    (A) Well, war is a crime in some respects but, yes, using WMDs like daisycutters probably should count unless in highly extreme and unlikely circumstances.

    Also you are being held accountable for saying some incredibly racist shit. (I) Own up to it and apologize and stop refusing the ladder (II) we keep offering out of that hole you’ve dug halfway to China . You would still need to do some serious fucking soul searching and fix your weird obsession with scary brown turbaned people. (III)

    (I) False. Some people have accused me of saying racist things but I have NEVER actually said anything racist. People have falsely read “racism” into some of my long past comments when it wasn’t there. In fact I don’t believe in the idea of “race” at all although, for clarity and yet again, *racism* is a real phenomena based on the false premise that “race” is real. I know we are all human beings deserving of decent treatment whatever our superficial and scientifically irrelevant ethnic or genotype differences.

    I will and have owned up for my mistakes and I’ve apologised for them and clarified what I actually think. I’ve done this a huge number of times in fact. Yet the StevoR haters here still boringly bring up the same long owned-up-to/apologised-for-and-clarified ancient history like they’ve forgotten this which is highly unfair and shows the extreme bias on their part. They really need to move on.

    (II) What metaphorical “ladder” when? That sure is news to me. (Admittedly I may have missed some of the comments from sheer numbers and lack of time.)

    (III) Its not a weird obsession – frankly I’d much rather discuss many other things – and its certainly not because they wear turbans (Sikhs are generally great people!) or have brown skin (Peruvians, Filipinnos and Mexicans – among others usually characterised as “brown-skinned” – are great people too too!) but rather because (how many times do I have to say this?) Jihadists are trying to kill us!

    That’s the sad reality. Yeesh, why is this seemingly so hard for so many seemingly smart people to grasp?

    @548. Rev. BigDumbChimp : “Stevie you are capable of amazing feats of being both incredibly boring and amazingly annoying concurrently.”

    Well, I’m glad you find my comments here incredible and amazing and saddened you find them boring, Rev.

  68. 568
    Inaji

    Ingdigo Jump:

    See the Ender’s Game thing where he went further than OSC in demonizing the enemy there and insisting it was a story of people doing what had to be done

    Oh, I seriously wish I could say I was surprised. I’m not. Anthony is right, this is loathsome and creepy. I’ll add scary to the mix.

  69. 569
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    but I am sooooo tired of him.

    So am I. So is most of the Horde. Do you suppose we should just start sending alerts? We’ve done it with other bigoted creeps.

  70. 570
    chigau (違う)

    Caine
    I’m willing to send an alert in the form of a request to just do some tidying.
    Recent events and threads seem to make a StevoR banning feasible.
    (it’s not like PZ doesn’t know what’s going on)

  71. 571
    Ze Madmax

    StevoR:

    You purposefully ignored comments by Anthony K (# 552) and Rob Grigjanis (#554) which directly challenge some of the assumptions you stated regarding the “start” of the conflict between Jihadists and the West* and the reliability of those who are in charge of the U.S. military. The fact that you chose to ignore such comments when they provide clear holes in your argument suggests that you’re less concerned with facts and more concerned with maintaining a Manichean view of the world that places your “side” squarely among the Good and Righteous and those on the opposing “side” as an Absolute Evil.

    And such selective attention is one of the reasons which support the idea that you’re a bigot. Because facts only seem to matter when they agree with your beliefs.


    *Not to mention, your comment about Islamic states attacking Israel in 1948 grossly mis-characterizes a conflict in which people who were already living there were forcefully removed and disenfranchised by first the British and then the Israelis. I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the phrase “a land without a people for a people without a land” was not a factual description of the situation, because the “land without people” actually HAD people in it!

  72. 572
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    StevoR thinks the poor innocent United States was attacked by bin Laden out of the blue on 9/11. In his world, the US was and is justified in any actions taken in retaliation. Even years after the fact. Even after the mastermind was killed. StevoR continues to IGNORE THE EVIDENCE I LINKED TO IN COMMENT #540 (and he continues to ignore the fact that he has been corrected many times over the years. My links are not the first, second, or tenth to attempt to show him how fucked up his opinions are. He listens to no one and reads nothing) showing how deeply problematic the drone policy is.

    StevoR thinks the links he has prove some point. I really do not know. Nor do I care.
    Why?
    Because the things he says make me despise him utterly.
    “Buuuuuuut Tony, what did I ever do to you that you feel such tremendous disdain for me?”

    Ask and you shall receive.
    Based on EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE SAID, I dislike you bc:

    1- you are racist. Between asking Ing how he could be friends with Muslims, to comments about Daisy Cutters, to the utter disregard for innocents killed in drone strikes, StevoR continues to show his preference for nonMuslims. He does not care that innocent brown people are killed. He only considers innocent people to be white.

    2- your fear of Muslims is so all encompassing that you think you are in danger from militant Islamists. Yet, as one can see from my link at #640, you are not. In fact, a cursory Google search will turn up similar results. I actually GASP opened my front door tonight and no Islamist terrorists were there to greet me. A world away, in Australia, I bet the same thing happened to Racist AsswitgotR. As my link @640 states, there is no reason for anyone to think they are in danger.

    3- you do not value human life. Oh you say you do, but only under the right circumstances. You do not value the innocent lives in Pakistan.

    4- you are a fucking close minded fool. When presented with evidence that you are wrong, rather than amend your views, you ignore the evidence and double down.

    5- you refuse to understand the deeper issues. You think I should read your links and that will support your views. Newsflash: I do not care about the links you produce bc they are irrelevant to my disdain for you

    6- your shortsighted views prevent you from understanding that the climate of fear that various peoples in the Middle East live under-THANKS TO DRONE STRIKES-will lead to more hatred towards the US. This country is killing innocents. Those innocents have friends and families…jobs and livelihoods. People depend on them. Our actions disrupt their day to day activities, which are the same as ours. People in Pakistan are trying to go through their lives and we keep them in a constant state of fear.
    I look at that and I am horrified.
    I imagine what it would be like to live in an area that is constantly bombed. Will I die today getting the mail? Will my best friend whom I have known for 10 years be killed by an errant drone bomb on his way to play a video game with me? Will I return from school to a home, or will it be destroyed as a result of a drone bomb? I have to get a job bc a drone strike took out my fathers legs and he provides for my family by working. Now that job falls on me.
    And all of that?
    Every. Single. Fucking. Bit?
    Happens week in, week out. For years.
    On top of that, I know it is from another country.
    My friends, family, school, job…they are devastated by the actions of this other country.
    How can I not hate and despise the people that did this to me.

    StevoR, your thinking is black and white, with brown people always in the wrong and white people always right.

    Whuch leads to my next reason for despising you:

    7- you love of authoritatian structures. The government knows what is best, we should follow them. Truly, my desire to bomb brown people is supported by the War on Terror. I despise you for this bc like so many, you blindly accept what the government says is good and just. You recuse to dig deeper. You refuse to question whether the US was justified in invading a country, ousting its leader, and then invading two other countries and killing innocent civilians. No, to you, thus is how we should respond. It is right and they are wrong.

    I actually could go on, but I am tired and you, StevoR are disgusting. Pharyngula would be a bwtter place if you were banned. You contribute nothing. Most of the regulars actively AND justifiably dislike you. You whine over and over.

    I hope this explains my immense dislike for you you fucking sharthead. If not…oh well you cant read for shit anyway.

  73. 573
    Ingdigo Jump

    That was a mistaken attempt at grim humour and NEVER a serious suggestion.

    Liar.

    Hey does ‘i was just joking” sound familiar to anyone else?

  74. 574
    Ingdigo Jump

    You know it occurs to me that after getting multiple “we don’t like you here” and “you upset people here” and “please go away” the insistence to stick around because “I won’t be bullied off” actually sounds a lot more like actual bullying. Knowing you’re not wanted and sticking around just to shit

  75. 575
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    “I could not understand why you have Muslim friends”
    “It baffled me.”

    WHAT BAFFLES ME IS HOW YOU CANNOT SEE THE RACISM IN THIS you disgusting shitstain. You wallow in your ignorance.
    I dislike you with a fiery passion matched only by my dislike for Pitizens.

  76. 576
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Funny. StevoR conducts himself much like Pitchguest. Documented facts does not deter either of them. They have their version of reality, partial truths and outright denials. And anyone who does not understand their crystal clear narratives have something very wrong with them. The fact they are misunderstood is not their fault, it is because you are malicious.

    Forgive them for both Pitchguest and StevoR are defenders of truth against a very hostile crowd.

  77. 577
    Inaji

    “I could not understand why you have Muslim friends”

    Yeah, we know. It’s because you’re a willfully deluded BIGOT. That would be the primary reason we all want you to go away. Fuck off. Leave. Find another hat-stand for your blinders. Wander off. Run away. Stop torturing decent human beings, like us. Take your serious-mental-issue-level bigotry far, far away from all decent human beings. Take your vile, disgusting twisting of history and your insistence that the only good brown peoples are those who are just so gosh darned almost human because western and have a long walk off a short cliff. All of it is repulsive and repugnant.

    Much to the dismay of decent human beings everywhere, there are dank, dimly lit areas of the ‘net, where hateful, awful, smug bigots meet and slap each other upon their cowardly backs. These fora are not at all difficult to find. There is a hat-stand out there for you, StevoR. There is place you could call ‘net home. Pharyngula is not that place. At this point, you are hanging about, holding us hostage while yelling that you’ve been kidnapped. You need to leave.

  78. 578
    chigau (違う)

    StevoR
    See?
    You need to leave.

  79. 579
    mildlymagnificent

    StevoR

    based on their own misunderstandings of who and what I really am.

    Your first and biggest mistake is to tie your identity and your personal “essence” into all this. From my perspective (being also in Australia) you trip over your own identity / opinion shoelaces when you tie the way you see yourself too closely to what you happen to say or do at any given time. It also inhibits you from trying to see yourself or your statements from any kind of distance.

    None of us “knows” you. All we can do is read what you write. And until and unless you can see what that looks like to eyes not your own, you’re always going to be playing catch-up.

    It’s not about you. It’s about what you say and what that leads people to conclude about you. If their conclusions are wrong, then it’s up to you to change your tone or your tune – or both – in the words you write so that their initial impressions and their accumulated conclusions better accord with the more favourable impression you think they should gather.

  80. 580
    mildlymagnificent

    Having said all that. There are no words, presented in no order that I can think of, that would make most of what I’ve read in your writing here any more than a polite way to say something horrible and unacceptable. You really need to straighten out your thinking before you approach any writing about what you claim to be thoughts.

    If you can apply reason and a knowledge of history to the position of West Papuans and Chagossians, you can do the same for Palestine, Afghanistan and the rest of the Middle East. Seeing as you’re from a Commonwealth country, you should have at least a rudimentary appreciation of the cack-handedness and racist arrogance of Brits and other Europeans in playing with people’s lives and national identities when carving up territories and “protectorates” for the sake of their own prestige back in their own countries and alliances.

  81. 581
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @579. mildlymagnificent :

    None of us “knows” you. All we can do is read what you write. And until and unless you can see what that looks like to eyes not your own, you’re always going to be playing catch-up.

    That’s very true.

    Also I’m no telepath. I try to express myself as well as I can. Admittedly I fail and a bound to continue failing at that sometimes. Part of the human condition I guess. I haven’t been clear enough in the past and then others have also misread and twisted some of my words and ignored the subsequent corrections.

    @577. Caine, Fleur du mal :

    .. Stop torturing decent human beings, like us.

    I’m “torturing” you by arguing with you online am I? FFS. No I’m not. I don’t believe its torture to have the option of sometimes hearing another side to the story that doesn’t agree with yours on one or two flippin’ issues.

    I am a decent human. I’m not the one who is responding with personal abuse, name-calling and silencing tactics here remember.

    there are dank, dimly lit areas of the ‘net, where hateful, awful, smug bigots meet and slap each other upon their cowardly backs. These fora are not at all difficult to find. There is a hat-stand out there for you, StevoR. There is place you could call ‘net home.

    I wouldn’t fit in there. I don’t agree with their views. I’m a feminist, someone who is compassionate to others and who prefers logic to abuse and who accepts the science when it comes to Global Overheating, vaccination and the nature of reality.

    At this point, you are hanging about, holding us hostage while yelling that you’ve been kidnapped.

    Rubbish. I’m very occassionally providing a dissenting opinion on a blog I enjoy.

    @551. Caine, Fleur du mal

    Y’know, StevoR, something I didn’t say in the ‘comments’ thread – I’m seriously in favour of anything which makes posting more difficult for you. I don’t want one thing to be easy for you to do here, because what I want is for you to get a fucking clue and leave. I do not like you. At all. You’re a compleat racist, you embrace loathsome ideas and monstrous acts. When you aren’t doing that, you stuff yourself in a bottle of self pity and become a maudlin whiner. No, no, I don’t want anything to be easy for you.

    Well, Caine, I don’t want to make things more difficult for you. I’m not attacking you, I’m not abusing you or demanding you get kicked off a blog you enjoy. I just disagree with you. I don’t much like you but I don’t hate you and I’m not claiming you are something you ain’t.

    Is the notion of agreeing to disagree really a foreign one to you?

    Is it too much to ask that you lay off me and give me a fair go or at least address the argument not the person?

    @571. Ze Madmax : Hey, give me time. I’m one person, I need to think, write and deal with a whole lot of comments plus do plenty of other stuff too. I’ll get around to addressing the comments you mention eventually.

  82. 582
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @ Caine : Like I asked Tony – what the hell have I done wrong to you?

    Disgareed with you on the internet, maybe beaten you in a fair argument? Oh no, the horror, the torture, the hostage taking! Really? Seriously? /sarcasm.

    Sheesh do I really seem so bad? I’m not you know.

  83. 583
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    heh, since Pharyngula seems pretty dead at the moment, except from the perpetual annoyance that just won’t go away (*glances at comments above*), I took a quick look at some other blogs even though I meant to get quickly out of the library and go for an icecream… anyway, what I wanted to say is:
    believerskeptic is whinging on B&W – in the comments, obviously – that comments make people averse to blogs. *eyeroll*

  84. 584
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Oh dear, I just can’t help myself.

    I haven’t been clear enough in the past and then others have also misread and twisted some of my words and ignored the subsequent corrections.

    Yelling “I’m not racist! I’m not racist! I’m not racist! I’m not racist! ” doesn’t count as a proper correction.

    Is it too much to ask that you lay off me and give me a fair go or at least address the argument not the person?

    Your arguments, such as they are, have been addressed multiple times. At this point, probably hundreds of times. People are sick to death of repeating themselves just so that you could keep repeating yourself in responses. It’s boring. It’s tiring. It’s baffling because the kind of sthick that you are pulling gets people banned.

  85. 585
    John Morales

    StevoR:

    Is the notion of agreeing to disagree really a foreign one to you?

    It’s conciliatory when taken figuratively; what you are seeking in effect is the ability to comment here exempt from confrontation, what others* are seeking is your absence here.

    One of those outcomes is under your control.

    (Taken literally, it is already the case that you disagree, so agreement on that point is moot!)

    * You don’t bug nearly as much as you do others, but then I’m a terrible person too. ;)

  86. 586
    Nick Gotts

    maybe beaten you in a fair argument? – StevoR

    *chuckle*
    Even if you were addressing the texpip or annejones, that would be risible.

  87. 587
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @SteveoR #567

    Sikhs are generally great people!

    And Poles are generally great plumbers!
    And Canadians are really polite!
    And Ethiopians sure can run!

    Even when you’re trying to be nice, you manage to indulge in the sort of racial generalisations that piss people off.

  88. 588
    birgerjohansson

    Caine;
    “There is one thing I’d love to see Scalzi blog about – the proliferation of authors who never use the word boy to describe or refer to an adult male, while always using the word girl to describe or refer to an adult female.”

    -In Swedish, the originally Rom world “tjej” meaning girl/young woman has become ubiquitous, to the degree that even fiftysomething women refer to themselves and friends as “tjejer*.” I suppose this is because of the cult of youth.

    * the plural form.

    —— —- —-
    Re. Thumper @ 587

    -But I have never met a nice South African!
    (reference to Spitting Image, ca. 1988)

  89. 589
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    So, SteveoR is up on his cross again or as I call it, Thursday

  90. 590
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    Yep. It’s the StevoR channel again.

    Sigh.

    Here’s a picture of bunnies.

  91. 591
    Lofty

    Poor, dull Stevor trying to pretend he’s beyond reproach. You’re not fooling anyone, you know. With your passionate defense of the indefensible you should be a Liberal party candidate, you know. Someone who has a fervent belief in authority but an entire lack of credibility .

  92. 592
    birgerjohansson

    Ah, here we go:
    “I’ve never met a nice South African” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZjwCmJrnlY

  93. 593
  94. 594
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    SteveoR:
    I will attempt, later on, to finish my list of reasons I do not like you. I am sure you read my #572, and are processing all that information now, but I have more to add you warmongering bigot.

    (I will point out-again, since you only read selectively-the problems we have with you are not “disagreements”. Your own words about Muslims…your own words of blind, unthinking support for death and destruction…your own views on the superiority of the West…oh, yeah [thanks for the reminder Caine] your own comments about melanin enriched…your own comments that dismiss race and racism–THESE ARE PART OF WHY PEOPLE DESPISE YOU)

  95. 595
    PZ Myers

    StevoR: Shut. Up. Now.

  96. 596
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @554. Rob Grigjanis :

    “Doesn’t it occur to you that hey, just perhaps, the experts and those with the greatest legal and ethical responsibility here may know what they’re doing?” -StevoR (ed)

    After Vietnam, Cambodia, (1) gun laws, tax laws, the War on Drugs,(2) Star Wars, (3) giving the finger to the UN (4), torture, (5) failing on climate change, mass outsourcing of jobs, financial disaster, utter contempt for the poor, general suckupage to corporations, corroding civil rights, etc? (6) Why, no, StevoR. It should never occur to any person with two neurons to rub together, a vestigial conscience, and the slightest grasp of history.(7)

    (Numerals added for reference. Edited for clarity.)

    Well that’s quite a non-sequiteur or rather a whole stream of irrelevant non-sequiteurs.* What precisely there is the fault of the US counter-terrorist experts or has anything to do with the Unmanned Aerial Vehicles warfare group(s)?

    (1) Vietnam and Cambodia – a whole different era and conflict assuming we are referring to the war in Indochina rather than the nations themselves.

    (2) Gun laws, tax laws, the War on Drugs – are all entirely unrelated issues and different topics with zero connection to anything I’m even discussing let alone arguing.

    Which was the UAV’s counter-terrorist program, the modern way wars are fought which sure beats them as bombings that were used in, well, Vietnam, Cambodia & Laos and elsewhere beforehand. Targeted killings or less discrimating random ones? What’s the more ethical option? Clearly targeted killings directly taking out the bad guys surely!

    (3) Star Wars – great movie. One of my fave cinema series. Connection to the matter at hand? Nil.

    Or did you mean Reagun’s proposed ballistic missile defence shield? Well, I guess that was at least during another time of very different warfare – the Cold war with the USSR. Back in the, what, early 1980′s mid-1980′s? One suggested idea that never happened and either way, again of precious little if any bearing on the field we’re talking about.

    (4) Giving the UN the bird – Relevance? None. Problems with that given the utter useless of the dictators debating table? None. The UN being totally toothless, ineffective and unable to fulfil its supposed function of preventing further global wars should be scrapped. Or at the very least majorly reformed so that nations like, hello, Syria (!) aren’t taking the chair of their Human rights committee. (Yes I kid you not!) Whole other issue entirely. Once again.

    (5) Torture. Okay something vaguely – if only vaguely – approaching relevance for the very first time. I presume you refer to the likes of Gitmo & Abu Ghraib rather than what the terrorists are doing all the time to any of the prisoners and hostages they capture? Torturing people is horrible and what happened at Abu Ghraib was wrong. But, frankly, Al Quaida,Taliban and other Jihadist masterminds? My sympathy for them is about zilch. They murdered thousands of people, they seek to murder zillions. yeah, I’m not fussed if their lives aren’t lived in luxury or if they experience a bit of discomfort during enhanced interrogations – especially if that yields information that saves lives.

    Ironically, if the drones weren’t used and the Jihadists were captured, they’d likely be tortured at camp X-ray instead. So what’s better – being taken out quickly by drone strike or tortured for years when finally being captured after killing, maiming and ruining more lives than would have happened if they’d been taken out earlier? Creating the future problem of what to do with enemy soldiers and evil masterminds who will return to try and kill us all at the first chance they get but whose legal treatment has become too controversial and too much of a problem for anyone to do anything with for who knows how long? Who can’t be tired or released? Terrorist soldiers know what they’re getting into and if they don’t, tough shit for them.

    Moral of the story – don’t become a fucking Jihadist terrorist! Because that means you do face torture and /or death. Just, I don’t know, do something better with your life, your choice.

    I don’t like or support torture, btw. Its just the reality and we’re far less guilty of it than the other side, sad as that may be. Again, the whole situation came about why? Because Jihadists want to destroy us and are willing to keep killing innocent people until they obtain that dreadful goal..

    (6) Et cetera indeed. Right back to a list of totally unrelated issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of conversation here. Whats any of that got to do with the price of eggs – or specifically the UAVs issue? All I can say is, what the? Uh, dude, nothing to do with it. No connection at all.

    Except just remotely that I do trust the expert climatologists and ignoring their advice is why we’re in trouble on that one. So in this case we should do ,what? Trust the experts again which is what I’m arguing for? Economists not-so-much since that’s more a pseudo-science than a real one.

    (7) Aa-annd we’re back to the personal abuse again without any logical argument at all.

    Then we also have :

    @552. Anthony K

    “If haven’t proven that already well, hell, tell me what would convince you?”- StevoR

    I’ll tell you. Don’t say things like:

    “They’ve been striking at – not “back” as we didn’t start this war remember -since at least the 11th of September 2001.”

    It’s patently wrong. The CIA just admitted its involvement in overthrowing the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in 1953. Just for one example of the history of the involvement between the US and the Middle East. They admitted it. And you blithely say patently idiotic shit like “They started it, I mean, if you count 9/11 at least.” Can’t you see how fucking stupid that is?

    What? Okay, you realise the current war isn’t over the 1953 coup in Iran right? You do actually realise that was a totally separate thing?

    The present War on (Jihadist) Terror(~Ism) is because of 9-11. Technically I guess you could date it back to Osama bin laden’s declaration of war in some cave years earlier.

    The 1953 coup – totally irrelevant to that. A whole other fucken historical incident with zzero connection to the Wo(J)T~ism. Notaware even fucking Binladen ever cited that one. Not that I listened to his rantings much, maybe you can enlighten me there if you did. But really. Nope. Binladen went after us because, US troops in Saudi Arabia incl,. gasps women and also, well, fuck he just plain hated us and all we stand for. Y’know freedom, democracy, secular society, not being all Muslim extremists, all that stuff.

    This is the kind of thing that demonstrates you’re a bigot. It shows the contempt you have for facts.

    Um, how exactly? Simple words please.

    Is this non-sequiteur night here or what? You throw out unrelated issues and I point out the accurate historical truth and present grim reality and that makes me a bigot ..how?

    Frankly, that you continue to play this game after how many years demonstrates that there’s something wrong with your head. You’re not going to convince anyone here you’re not a bigot, precisely because the things you say are bigoted things. I know you can’t see that because you’re extremely stupid (and possibly drunk again), but that’s the truth.

    No, its your opinion. Also personal abuse. I wasn’t drunk before, getting that way now, but since I’ve been asked to respond specifically here. Even if there was stuff wrong with my head that doesn’t constitute a logical argument or rebuttal of my position here.

    Now, go right ahead and claim this comment as part of your persecution complex. I don’t fucking care. This is pretty much the maximum interaction I want to have with you. You’re loathsome and creepy. But you need to sort yourself the fuck out.

    So, end again with more personal abuse as always and lies about my character. I suppose that’s become the tradition here. Sigh. Not going to bully me away tho’.

    @571. Ze Madmax

    StevoR :You purposefully ignored comments by Anthony K (# 552) and Rob Grigjanis (#554) which directly challenge some of the assumptions you stated regarding the “start” of the conflict between Jihadists and the West* and the reliability of those who are in charge of the U.S. military.

    Well there you go. Answered.

    Not much of a challenge tho to throw out a whole list of unrelated topics, a ceaseless stream of non-sequiteurs and top it off with more abuse. That’s not so much a “challenge to my assumptions” so much as a just a case of wandering right off topic and screaming abuse. Did you seriously think that constituted a reasonable case against me when virtually none of that was even dealing with the topic at all? Yeesh.

    Oh well, going to bed now, not ignoring anyone – just must sleep. Work tomorrow. Will catch y’all when I next have hours of spare time. Maybe next day or so.

    * Yes that’s a tautology I know. Call it emphasis for the hard of understanding.

  97. 597
    Portia

    Is the notion of agreeing to disagree really a foreign one to you?

    Yes, actually, it is, in the face of bullshit like yours.

    (Yeah, I know, you were talking to Caine, but I can’t help myself either. Beatrice, should we start a support group?)

    Why is he not banned yet?
    I mean, I know. He doesn’t really break the rules. But FFS, roxy made two suggestive comments (don’t get me wrong, I was creeped out) and he is gone. And we’re still mopping up the floor after StevoR?

  98. 598
    Portia

    Welp, I should refresh more often, then I would see the Red Text of Doom before flapping my gums. I’ll be over here innocently sipping my coffee.

  99. 599
    PZ Myers

    Roxy has 13 blocked comments in the spam trap, including this gem:

    Hey PZ, you’re a real cunt, hope you get sued for all you’ve got. I fucking hate you.

    Pretty blatant, I think.

  100. 600
    PZ Myers

    So this is the choice Muslims have?

    being taken out quickly by drone strike or tortured for years when finally being captured

    That idiocy, defending fucking torture, is the final straw.

    Bye, StevoR.

  101. 601
    Portia

    Bye, StevoR.

    Thunderdome Party!!!

  102. 602
    chigau (違う)

    yeeeehhhaaaaa

  103. 603
  104. 604
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    AT FUCKING LAST!

  105. 605
    Portia

    *deep breath*

    It smells so much better in here all of a sudden.

  106. 606
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    That is something nice to wake up to.

  107. 607
    Nightjar

    Not the first time StevoR plainly defends torture, for the record.

    Thunderdome Party!!!

    I know, right? Just to think that this particularly whiny, hate-filled warmonger is not around any more! This looks like such a better place all of a sudden.

  108. 608
    Portia

    Not the first time StevoR plainly defends torture, for the record.

    I think that’s an important thing to note.

  109. 609
    omnicrom

    And thus StevoR endorsed warcrimes one final time. He’s another one who deserves an honorary plaque for his dungeon cell.

    My submission is “Racist shithead and all around awful person. Endorsed the killing of innocent civilians as long as they’re brown, defended torture, and was absolutely immune to facts. Greatest hits include being aghast someone could have Muslim friends, waxing poetic about bombing civilians, complimenting how Japan was the best Asian country because it was an honorary Western state, and arguing absolute trust in the authority of the government to kill people.”

  110. 610
    Rey Fox

    Not that I listened to his rantings much, maybe you can enlighten me there if you did. But really. Nope. Binladen went after us because, US troops in Saudi Arabia incl,. gasps women and also, well, fuck he just plain hated us and all we stand for. Y’know freedom, democracy, secular society, not being all Muslim extremists, all that stuff.

    Wow. Keen grasp of global politics here. Anyone pulling the “they hate us for our freedom” card should definitely be sent back to the kiddie table.

  111. 611
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    *sees banhammer application, turns off hushfile*
    Grog/swill is on the house.

  112. 612
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Birgerjohanssen

    I’ve never met a nice South African

    *cough!*

    {tardigrade glare}

  113. 613
    Nightjar

    “Racist shithead and all around awful person. Endorsed the killing of innocent civilians as long as they’re brown, defended torture, and was absolutely immune to facts. Greatest hits include being aghast someone could have Muslim friends, waxing poetic about bombing civilians, complimenting how Japan was the best Asian country because it was an honorary Western state, and arguing absolute trust in the authority of the government to kill people.”

    I like it, but it’s missing something important.

    “When drunk, tired, and emotional, would defend nuking whole countries or maybe bombing them with daisy cutters as the most ‘humane’ thing to do.”

  114. 614
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Seems I picked a good day to start reading Thunderdome again.

    Now, I’m going to say something contentious and start a real fight:

    The Chicago Bears suck.

    There, I said it!

  115. 615
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    [finally gets wifi connection]

    Holy crap, this place suddenly looks so clean and tidy!

  116. 616
    chigau (違う)

    John Morales #593
    *sigh* indeed.
    And you just know there’s more.

  117. 617
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    Re. SteveoR:

    That last comment of his embodies pretty much everything that people disliked about him (including his frankly startling ability to convince himself that jihadists are the only ones being hurt by drone strikes, thus allowing him to pretend we are all defending jihadism).

    Still… He’s gone now…

    *hits music*

    *grabs a grog*

    Whoop whoop!

    Note: lyrics of song can be applied to the late unlamented bigot

  118. 618
    dianne

    I’m not fussed if their lives aren’t lived in luxury or if they experience a bit of discomfort during enhanced interrogations – especially if that yields information that saves lives.

    Ironically, if the drones weren’t used and the Jihadists were captured, they’d likely be tortured at camp X-ray instead.

    Sorry, I know StevoR is gone, but these two sentences, written apparently one after the other, strike me as an amazing piece of cognitive dissonance. One moment, life at Guantanamo is simply “not luxurious” and the next it is acknowledged that torture is occurring there? Torture bad enough that drone attacks are the “humane” thing to do? What?

    Also, death in drone strike or years of torture: Do these seem like alternatives that the “good guys” should be offering? Are we the baddies, as the youtube clip says?

    Stevo is gone from this forum but he and others of the same opinion are definitely still out there, influencing policy. The US and its allies are sinking further into the slime. Not sure how to reverse this trend or if it can be reversed…

  119. 619
    Anthony K

    Did you seriously think that constituted a reasonable case against me when virtually none of that was even dealing with the topic at all.

    I know he’s gone, thank fuck, but what kind of a halfwit thinks that the recent history of US involvement in Iran is unrelated to Islamist anger against the US?

  120. 620
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    A halfwit who buys the “we overthrew Mossadegh for GOOD REASONS, and therefore anyone who is angry about it is WRONG and ANTI-AMERICAN” line, Anthony.

  121. 621
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    OMG no more StevoR! :D

  122. 622
    Anthony K

    A halfwit who buys the “we overthrew Mossadegh for GOOD REASONS, and therefore anyone who is angry about it is WRONG and ANTI-AMERICAN” line, Anthony.

    Yeah, I should know better, having been raised by one such halfwit.

    Anyway, the saddest thing is that we’ll never get to know what a swell little bigot StevoR is, deep down. He never had a chance, what with his only commenting here for at least a couple of years.

  123. 623
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    Yeah, I actually feel a little nauseous right now. RH was a childhood hero of mine.

    I am currently en route to Germany. There are 16 (sixteen!) people travelling together. I’ll report back. This should get interesting….

  124. 624
    Chris Clarke

    This is as close as Pharyngula gets to a classified ad page, so I’m posting this here in the hopes that the wiki’s editors will see it.

    A regrettably necessary open letter to the writers of the Pharyngula Wiki

    Carry on. Be well, y’all.

  125. 625
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    It certainly is nice not to have arguments over, “How okay is torture, anyway?” in the Thunderdome anymore.

    It leaves me time for this:

    Nauseous: while normally I”m of the opinion that dictionaries reflect usage not the other way around, I can’t help but look with disdain on the usage, “I actually feel a little nauseous right now.”

    Take that, Theophontes. I’m vicious and unsympathetic to others’ human plights.

    Understand that I correct your grammar from a desire to do good, though through me it will work great evil.

    Bwahahahahahaha.

  126. 626
    yazikus

    Carry on. Be well, y’all.

    You are missed Chris!
    -
    Who edits the wiki?

  127. 627
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Oh, my. Sorry CC.

    I will miss you around here, regardless of how vicious and unsympathetic I might be to those who use the word “nauseous” to mean that which, formerly, was only communicated by “nauseated”.

    I know you never posted as much as PZ, but I liked your contributions. Good luck in your ventures.

  128. 628
    Inaji

    I’m barely awake, drinking my tea, checking my e-mail. I find 3 missives from believerskeptic, one with the subject line: FW: on being banned (believerskeptic); please read, it’s not that bad (He sent this one to PZ also, seriously long), the second with the subject line: FW: proof (good faith). Obviously, he wouldn’t mind me going to bat for him, although he claims a plea of wanting to be understood. Then we get to the third email he sent me:

    Your work is terrible. The best that could be said is that you are technically proficient— so are a lot of people. Your subject matter is banal. What do you have to say? Apparently, that you like nature. Who doesn’t? And that you like patterns. Who doesn’t? Your cephalopods might make interesting literal cookie cutters, but it’s cookie-cutter art.

    Your pattern-based artwork is essentially the stuff of tattoo art (to which I notice you are hardly averse). Your presentation is pretentious as hell. Are you actually French, Cxxxx “Caine” Xxxx? [My real name redacted]

    Go photograph something that lives up to your claim of sociopolitical consciousness. Or would that require too much effort? Get out into your town of 79 strong and document that— instead of telling us, show us. Who are these people? Can you actually capture the charms of bucolic midwest village life *through your work*? Better yet, get out of your town of 79 strong. You say you’re a feminist? How about some art that captures the strength of women, particularly women of color, rather than the strength of rats and cephalopods?

    In short, you’re a poseur (as you are so fond of French words). You’re a hack, and even as tattoo art goes, you would hardly be in the running to be among the best. You’re completely wasting your time with this “work.” Your husband may like it, and your blogger friends may adore you, but you will never pass muster with anyone with a critical eye.

    Given your technical proficiency, you have potential, and at the age of 55, you still have some life expectancy and some capacity for learning and self-improvement. It is to be hoped that you avail upon your time remaining to explore the work of actual photographic artists who have something meaningful to say and to contribute, and learn from their example.

    Hey, BS! Thanks ever for your opinion, and I’ll answer one thing: Nope, not even a little bit French. I happen to like Baudelaire. Now, do not email me anymore. I’m not gonna go to bat for you.

  129. 629
    yazikus

    whoops, borked my blockquote. Should have been

    Carry on. Be well, y’all.

    You are missed Chris!
    -
    Who edits the wiki?

  130. 630
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Jeez, what an ass.

  131. 631
    PZ Myers

    Chris Clarke was my “assistant”? What? I asked him to come on to add some class to the joint. He was never in any way subservient or under my orders — he was free to make contributions as he wanted, and I was always happy to see them.

    This does not bode well for any contributors I might decide to bring on. I would not ask anyone to work for me, but only with me.

  132. 632
    Maureen Brian

    Caine,

    They used to say that sort of thing about Louise Bourgeoise – to stick with the French theme – and look where she is in the textbooks now!

    (Fucking idiot, isn’t he?)

  133. 633
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    my #630 was not to #629 but to the assitude of BS shown in #628

  134. 634
    Inaji

    Chris, I’m sorry you still get to deal with an arrogant asshat after leaving. I’ve been terrible about keeping up with your blog, I’ll try to do better.

  135. 635
    PZ Myers

    Yeah, believerskeptic sent me a couple of long emails too. One was a suicide note, believe it or not, that he’d written a week ago, in which he moaned about his failure to get tenure (and he has my sympathies there) and then turned around and blamed me and all of you here for his death…which didn’t happen.

    Oh, and, PZ? I think it’s cute how you’ve fostered a group that is so alert to the existence of privilege while never saying much about your own status as an ivory-towered, tenured patrician. It’s a really nifty trick, and had I survived to find my own way onto the storied tenure track I might have continued reading your blog for pointers on how to appear to be an anti-privilege populist tenured academic.

    I do believe I’ve noted more than a few times that I’m an incredibly privileged person…so privileged, apparently, that believerskeptic deeply resented me for it and was considering killing himself over it.

    If he’s reading this: get professional help. You’ve got a wife and child, moaning about the injustices done you here isn’t going to help you move on.

  136. 636
    Inaji

    Maureen:

    (Fucking idiot, isn’t he?)

    Well, I don’t have a high opinion of his intelligence, to say the least. I am glad he wrote that little critique, though, because after sending me two plea missives, he just could not help himself, and had to be who he really is, so I have no doubt he is not operating in good faith.

  137. 637
    Inaji

    PZ:

    Yeah, believerskeptic sent me a couple of long emails too. One was a suicide note, believe it or not, that he’d written a week ago, in which he moaned about his failure to get tenure (and he has my sympathies there) and then turned around and blamed me and all of you here for his death…which didn’t happen.

    Yes, he sent me the same ones he sent you. He has definite issues, and several people here did reach out to him in the lounge, however, he cannot seem to help turning around and going full court asshole, complete with a closet of manipulation techniques.

  138. 638
    PZ Myers

    One thing I will say: no one who writes me long angry emails after getting banned has a chance in hell of ever being un-banned.

    The last person who did that (before BS) was Reap Paden. That’s the company it puts you in.

  139. 639
    Nightjar

    Chris Clarke,

    Oh, damn. I have been back at the Wiki the last few days after a long time away, but I didn’t realise that was happening, possibly because I hadn’t gone there today yet. I also haven’t read all the entries created while I was away, or I would have noticed and corrected the “assistant” part. I’m so sorry I couldn’t help. I really wish I had seen the rollbacks in time to undo them and let your edits stand, making that letter unnecessary.

    *sigh*

  140. 640
    chigau (違う)

    *hugs* Chris.

  141. 641
    Pteryxx

    Caine: holy crap. I think I owe you an apology for even attempting to be decent to believerskeptic before he completely lost it. That’s stalker-level behavior he’s showing here.

  142. 642
    cicely

    After Vietnam, Cambodia, gun laws, tax laws, the War on Drugs, Star Wars, giving the finger to the UN, torture, failing on climate change, mass outsourcing of jobs, financial disaster, utter contempt for the poor, general suckupage to corporations, corroding civil rights, etc? Why, no, StevoR. It should never occur to any person with two neurons to rub together, a vestigial conscience, and the slightest grasp of history.

    This.
    But StevoR seems to hold a “religious” conviction that the Government is honest, honorable, and otherwise possessed of Integrity. It’s like trying to get a point contrary to Accepted Dogma across to a religious fundamentalist. Seriously.
     
    Governmentism? Making him a Governmentist?
    -

    Thunderdome Party!!!

    Let’s see…I’ve got nachos, and little chocolate eclairs, and a veggie tray that is splendiferous in its variety. What else do we need?
    -

    The Chicago Bears suck.

    This is foolball, yes?
    -
    Safe travels and be well, Chris Clarke.
    -

  143. 643
    chigau (違う)

    believerskeptic is starting to sound like a mabus-in-the-making.

  144. 644
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Chris:
    I will miss you here, but I understand your health is of greatest importance.

    ****

    If you had asked me yesterday if Believerskeptic should be allowed back in the future, I’d have said yes. After reading that horrible email he sent Caine he can fuck off forever.

  145. 645
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    Caine: holy crap. I think I owe you an apology for even attempting to be decent to believerskeptic before he completely lost it. That’s stalker-level behavior he’s showing here.

    Tony:

    If you had asked me yesterday if Believerskeptic should be allowed back in the future, I’d have said yes. After reading that horrible email he sent Caine he can fuck off forever.

    Pteryxx, no, you don’t owe me an apology. BS sent that email to me through my moblog, which I haven’t updated in bloody ages. The things that he doesn’t understand are many. I’m not a professional photographer, I’m a happy amateur, like lots of people. I do make a decent amount of money doing it, but that’s not stuff I post anywhere, because it’s stock. So, really, anything he has to say about that doesn’t matter to me at all.

    As for my art work, yeah, most of that never gets posted to ‘net either, with the exception of some small stuff and one long term piece I’m working on. At any rate, as an artist, I learned to deal with criticism and the critiquing process decades ago. It can be very harsh and difficult to deal with at times, however, if you’re someone who has decided on a career as a writer, artist, or other creative endeavour, criticism is part and parcel of it. I don’t have any problems with criticism, and this is far from the first time someone has attempted to put down everything I do as a way to work out a personal grudge. *shrug*

    BS demonstrated, here, that he does not deal well with any sort of criticism, so I have no doubt he thought this was the best way to wound me. I know he would have very upset to see my initial reaction, which was to raise an eyebrow, laugh with a mouthful of tea*, and shake my head. I’m happy, I make a fair amount of money, and I do as many shows as I wish to do. His attempt to lash out was ineffective.

    Oh, and the stuff about the cephalopod ornaments for our Squidmas tree? Hee. I’m lucky they came out looking like cute cookies – a fuckin’ sculptor, I am not!

    *Okay, that one hurt a bit. I *hate* having to clean up before I’m fully awake.

  146. 646
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Governmentism? Making him a Governmentist?

    He may qualify as an actual, in the wild Statist, a concept which is ordinarily a peice of meaningless libertarian cant.

    Safe travels, Chris Clarke.

  147. 647
    SallyStrange

    No more SteveOr! This is fantastic! I know a real-life Steve-O, and he’s way way cooler than the no-longer-resident bigot around here. Now I can let SteveOr fade into memory and continue interacting with my brother-in-law’s mother’s boyfriend* with no twinging reminders of authoritarian racism.

    Caine, sorry you have to deal with BS’s bs still. That said, the experience has given me a extra confidence in my asshole-detection abilities.

    *We need more better words for familial relationships.

  148. 648
    Inaji

    SallyStrange:

    That said, the experience has given me a extra confidence in my asshole-detection abilities.

    It’s excellent, your confidence is well founded. I will note that BS’s suicide note was intended to be posted here, not emailed to any one person. There was a large “you’ll be sorry!” component to it.

    BS, if you’re reading, that sort of thing isn’t going to help. You need to seek help at the professional level. I hope you find some, and by doing so, you’re able to obtain happiness and contentment in your life.

  149. 649
    carlie

    I’m really sorry that happened, Chris. Not something you should have had to deal with, and I don’t know who wrote that in the first place, but it sucks.

    Caine, that sucks that bs found you. Seriously, bs, seconding the recommendation for professional counseling. Such obsessions are not good.

  150. 650
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    believerskeptic

    It’s never okay to threaten suicide at someone. That’s…downright abusive.

    1-800-273-8255

    That’s the US suicide hotline.

    Call it. Take care of yourself, and please, stop sending PZ and Caine emails.

  151. 651
    Inaji

    I was just under the impression that rape was a particular kind of non-consensual sex,

    Aauuuuuuuuuuuggggggghhhhh!

    :coughs: Pardon, had to get that out before I went full court temper on someone.

  152. 652
    ChasCPeterson

    God damn it. I pledged to myself to not comment for a while, but I will not sit by while people comfort themselves with the meme that Chris Clarke left Pharyngula because somebody else was snotty to him at the stupid Wiki.
    His actual reason for leaving is explicit:

    because of the tenor of the commentariat. There are a number of regulars there who are fine people, and a number who are deliberate jerks in situations that do not call for deliberate jerkery, and a Venn diagram of those two sets would overlap considerably.

    And I think he is exactly right.

    So look in the mirror.

    (I do not except myself; in fact something like that realization was the reason for my pledge; to which I now return.)

  153. 653
    carlie

    Chas – nobody’s saying that Chris left because of the wiki, just that it’s really shitty that somebody kicked him in the ass on the way out.

  154. 654
    carlie

    Or, I should say, that’s what I was saying, and interpreted other comments as.

  155. 655
    Inaji

    Chas:

    God damn it. I pledged to myself to not comment for a while, but I will not sit by while people comfort themselves with the meme that Chris Clarke left Pharyngula because somebody else was snotty to him at the stupid Wiki.

    No one said that, you ass. Reading comprehension has completely deserted you. By the way, lots of people were aware of Chris leaving, and why, at the time he left.

  156. 656
    Nightjar

    yazicus,

    Who edits the wiki?

    carlie,

    I don’t know who wrote that in the first place

    I think the problem here might be that the Wiki, as it is right now, is pretty much abandoned by actual Pharyngula commenters. Last time I looked, CCipher and sgbm were around, but they aren’t now. Now there is only the occasional commenter briefly visiting with something very specific in mind (like me a few days ago for the purpose of creating an entry on Crystal Clear Consent), and only one person actively and daily editing the Wiki. As far as I can tell, a person who isn’t a regular commenter here, but likes the blog and likes to contribute to atheism-themed Wikis in general. It was them who reverted Chris Clarke’s edits, and there is no one else there at the moment.

    So, when Chris says:

    But apparently I have no choice but to either say something publicly or let an insulting and inaccurate bio stand on a site that’s supposed to be run by friends.

    Well, supposed to, maybe. But not actually being run by them, because it is abandoned, being edited by one person who isn’t a regular, and no one else is there to double-check new content and ensure that stuff like calling Chris an assistant gets noticed and corrected.

  157. 657
    Nightjar

    while people comfort themselves with the meme that Chris Clarke left Pharyngula because somebody else was snotty to him at the stupid Wiki.

    What?

    That doesn’t even make sense chronologically, FFS.

  158. 658
    SallyStrange

    Yes, Chas, it’s true: you ARE a deliberate fucking asshole, often in situations that do not call for deliberate assholery.

  159. 659
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    Hum. One way, I guess, would be to make wiki accounts harder to obtain.

  160. 660
    Inaji

    Nightjar:

    Well, supposed to, maybe. But not actually being run by them, because it is abandoned,

    I wish I could do more, however, as I said, I am seriously wiki-stupid. I do better by leaving stuff alone, because I don’t know what I’m doing. SG rode herd on the wiki when he was around, I don’t think anyone else was doing near as much as he did.

  161. 661
    carlie

    Ah. In that case, it’s understandable that the person might have gotten Chris’ position wrong, and I feel bad that somebody is doing regular work for the wiki who isn’t even invested in the community mainly because nobody else is doing it. sounds like a series of honest mistakes that, nonetheless, ended up looking bad and causing real distress.

  162. 662
    Inaji

    Carlie, if you read Chris’s post about it, it does not come across as any sort of innocent mistake or accident at all.

  163. 663
    Nightjar

    I’m actually inclined to think that Carlie is right about this being mostly a series of honest mistakes. It’s likely that this person wasn’t aware of Chris leaving Pharyngula. And let’s keep in mind that even though we don’t go there often, the trolls do. So, I guess that seeing an anonymous account making edits that didn’t correspond to what they thought was the truth (i.e., Chris still blogging here) caused that knee-jerk reaction, “prove you’re not a troll, because I pretty much only see trolls around any more”. A mistake, I would even say an inexcusable stupid one, but probably a mistake nonetheless.

    And of course none of this excuses the dismissive tone of the entry on Chris, but I guess that could be explained by sloppiness rather than malice. I guess.

    Yes, I realise I’m being charitable. But this person has always seemed like good people to me, and SG trusted them enough to give them admin status. FWIW.

    Not that this matters much now, of course. The harm has been done, and I’m just sorry I wasn’t there to sort things out.

  164. 664
    Chris Clarke

    It’s not a significant harm in the scheme of things. Still, it would be nice to see the whole “intent isn’t magic” concept applied across the board.

  165. 665
    Inaji

    Nightjar and Carlie, please note:

    I edited the entry to correct and update it, removing the weirdly and badly written summary of my work and replacing it with straight fact.

    That edit has been reverted twice, with the most recent reversion bearing a haughty note implying that the reversions would continue until I “prove [I'm] Chris Clarke.”

    Emphasis mine. This is not fucking innocent. http://coyot.es/crossing/2013/08/29/a-regrettably-necessary-open-letter-to-the-writers-of-the-pharyngula-wiki/

  166. 666
    Chris Clarke

    Also, what Caine said. If trolls are factchecking and improving writing now, then I want some like that.

  167. 667
    Inaji

    Chris:

    Still, it would be nice to see the whole “intent isn’t magic” concept applied across the board.

    Yes.

    Fuck it, I’m not feeling remotely charitable today. I’m in a temper and have a twitched out trigger finger. I’m going to go clean up after rats, a right noble occupation right now.

  168. 668
    Nightjar

    Chris,

    Still, it would be nice to see the whole “intent isn’t magic” concept applied across the board.

    That’s why I said it doesn’t matter. I’m just answering Carlie, not saying this wasn’t an asshole move on Proxima Centauri’s part.

    Caine,

    This is not fucking innocent.

    I don’t know. I just thought it could have been a knee-jerk reaction due to all the trolls that show up there routinely. Or not.

    Either way, there’s no excuse.

  169. 669
    carlie

    I’m not saying intent makes it ok – far from it. I’m saying that this kind of thing might not happen that way if there were more people involved in the wiki and they were more familiar with the blog and the goings-on in it.

  170. 670
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD.

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