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Aug 16 2013

[Thunderdome]

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

695 comments

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  1. 501
    Portia

    Ah, I see the Lousy Canuck thread that John Morales linked to above has the examples of JT’s previous assholism. I’m no longer in any mood to describe it as cluelessness or privilege-blindness or anything like that. He’s disgustingly egotistical about the probability of his own wrongness.

  2. 502
    ChasCPeterson

    He’s disgustingly egotistical

    You could have put the period there.
    Dude used to post more pictures of himself than even Coyne does.

  3. 503
    Portia
    He’s disgustingly egotistical

    You could have put the period there.

    Ha. Touche.

  4. 504
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Is ‘Coyne’ pronounced ‘coin’?

  5. 505
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    Sorry for the delayed reply; everything went a bit up in the air here and, much to my disgust, I was called upon to actually do some work :)

    @Portia

    I like “Patheists” :) I’m on board, Cap’n!

    @KevinKat

    Didn’t Hank Fox have The Blue Collar Atheist here? I liked reading him, before he left.

    @Tony!

    Thanks, I would have been sad to remove it :)

  6. 506
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Tony!
    I’d always assumed so…

  7. 507
    Portia

    I’m on board, Cap’n!

    That’s the spirit, matey! ^_^

  8. 508
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Is ‘Coyne’ pronounced ‘coin’?

    No. It’s pronounced “throatwarbler mangrove”.

  9. 509
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Aaaaand how is “Jerry” pronounced

  10. 510
    Portia

    I told Bria I can appreciate not being bothered when people unfairly think ill of you (I like to think I have that down myself),

    Oh, what a good martyr he is!

  11. 511
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Aaaaand how is “Jerry” pronounced

    The ‘p’ and the ’3′ are both silent. And it rhymes with orange.

  12. 512
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Aaaaand how is “Jerry” pronounced

    Like Cholmondely Featherstonehaugh is, Chumley Fanshaw. Easy.

  13. 513
    UnknownEric the Apostate

    Hmmm. The Bloody Caesar sounds disgusting.

    That’s what Cicero said.

    /rim shot

  14. 514
    Rutee Katreya

    All I know about Patheos is what little I’ve seen:
    1: they took the asshole who was a soldier trying to get soldiers the right to be atheist in the military. The one who was a blogger here, obviously the MRFF is its own thing and isn’t made of asshattery at any point that I know of.
    2: They had one atheist who went into the archeological case against the old testament. Fun stuff to read.
    3: They have the LEft Behind reading guy.

    Any reason I should care?

  15. 515
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    If you don’t understand recursion, see: “recursion”
    </blockquote

    That is brilliant.

    Owlmirror, I will likely never get the opportunity to use this. If I do, I'm sure to forget to attribute it to you, but I'll know it was someone else who came up with it.

    Here's me, citing you as a source, so when I plagiarize you later I can't get called on it.

  16. 516
    txpiper

    Reckon how come no PZ commentary on the kid sport-murdered by the diversity in Oklahoma?

  17. 517
    ChasCPeterson

    Michael Shermer sez:

    I did nothing wrong–legally or morally–and I intend to defend myself and prosecute Myers until he issues a retraction and apology

  18. 518
    Pteryxx

    …can txpiper get banned yet?

  19. 519
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Reckon how come no PZ commentary on the kid sport-murdered by the diversity in Oklahoma?

    Who gives a shit what you consider important. You believe in phantasms. All else is irrelevant….

  20. 520
    ChasCPeterson

    by the diversity

    wait.

    What?

  21. 521
  22. 522
    anteprepro

    Reckon how come no PZ commentary on the kid sport-murdered by the diversity in Oklahoma?

    I saw txpiper had posted, and my first response was “yawn”. But I see that the pip is clearly upping their game in order to stay competitive with the other asswitgots.

    Well congratufuckinglations, you racist fucking slimebag. You are a fucking piss-poor excuse for a human being. Thanks for proving that our low opinions of you were far too generous, and for reminding us just how low a wingnut can go. How very Christian of you to look at someone murdered and wondering how you can use it to hate on minorities. Go back to the darkness from once you came. Or at very least go fuck yourself, and do so for a long enough period that we never have to hear from you again.

  23. 523
    txpiper

    “Who gives a shit what you consider important.[?] You believe in phantasms. All else is irrelevant….”

    Yeah, I understand and expect that part.

    But after all the blind-to-the-facts mewing about a promising criminal career being cut short in the case of beloved, violent Trayvon, you’d think that a cold-blooded race-driven killing would warrant some kind of attention. I mean, they shot him in the back for fun because he was white.

    Nerd, you are a classic liberal….your entire fragmented worldview is glued together with hypocrisy. Good show!

  24. 524
    LykeX

    Reckon how come no PZ commentary on the kid sport-murdered by the diversity in Oklahoma?

    I wonder how come you didn’t even bother linking to the story you were referring to.

    Actually, I don’t. I know why. It’s because you’re devoid of empathy and you’re incapable of seeing the death of another human being as anything other than a chance to make a political point.

  25. 525
    Pteryxx

    not a word for the white shooter dude in Georgia talked down by the caring black person? or does “diversity” only run one way?

  26. 526
    txpiper

    “How very Christian of you to look at someone murdered and wondering how you can use it to hate on minorities.”

    That is the problem, and it has been for decades. If you notice something wrong, and if is pet groups that are on the wrong side of it, that makes you a racist. This is why race relations are worse than ever. Wait till they get hungry.

    But that is the national syndrome. Your personal problem is absolute blindness. Why aren’t you whining in reverse when a decent young man was killed by animals that you and your ilk insist on funding?

    I have a question for you. Why do the park rangers put up signs that say “Do Not Feed the Animals”?

  27. 527
    anteprepro

    But after all the blind-to-the-facts mewing about a promising criminal career being cut short in the case of beloved, violent Trayvon , you’d think that a cold-blooded race-driven killing would warrant some kind of attention. I mean, they shot him in the back for fun because he was white.

    Transparent racism is transparent.

    KKKreationist for the lose.

    (News article here . For those interested, take note at the image at the top of the page, contrast with txpiper’s assertion that this is an anti-white hate crime, and then laugh with disgust with the rest of us).

  28. 528
    Ingdigo Jump

    Ok on that last comment can we please get rid of the fuckign racist? Don’t we have enough goddamn meat fucking shit heads around here.

  29. 529
    anteprepro

    This is why race relations are worse than ever.

    The only way that race relations are getting worse is that those who are not white are increasingly getting heard, and white people who don’t like are getting increasingly paranoid and/or denialistic.

    Your personal problem is absolute blindness.

    Your personal problem is attributing your own worst faults to other people. Well, one of your innumerable personal problems is that.

    Why aren’t you whining in reverse when a decent young man was killed by animals that you and your ilk insist on funding ?

    Yeah, you should be fucking banned now. You are beyond contempt and you are so far gone that you don’t even have the decency to be ashamed of your bigotry. Of your hatred and hypocrisy. You aren’t worth it to us, and you clearly will never leave here of your own accord. I hope you manage to wind up booted sooner rather than later, you spewing shitstack.

  30. 530
    Pteryxx

    again with the ilk? ILK PRIDE

  31. 531
    Ingdigo Jump

    I Lick Ilk

  32. 532
    Ichthyic

    Why do the park rangers put up signs that say “Do Not Feed the Animals”?

    Good question. I often wonder why anyone bothers feeding you around here.

    Isn’t it time you were gone?

  33. 533
    Weed(less) Monkey

    Any monitors awake?

  34. 534
    txpiper

    “It’s because you’re devoid of empathy and you’re incapable of seeig the death of another human being as anything other than a chance to make a political point.”

    Well, after the national Trayvon nervous breakdown, that’s why I was asking. Granted, this was just a normal, decent, white kid, here on a scholarship. But the dialog is different now, isn’t it?

  35. 535
    chigau (違う)

    Yes.
    Done.

  36. 536
    cicely

    Looks like a racially-diverse group of murderers to me, txpiper. What’s your beef?
     
    Also—it may have escaped your attention but 1) Our Squidly Overlord has a job, 2) the Intarweebs are large, 3) there are only so many hours in a day; and 4) the number of crimes, world-wide, in which race is or may be a factor is a prohibitively large sub-set of Things That Are Not Good.
     
    And with your latest, I would like to join those here wishing you a hearty, “Fuck off!”
    -

  37. 537
    Pteryxx

    Oh, and then there’s this: As we try to recover from the unnecessarily polarized aftermath of the Trayvon Martin killing and George Zimmerman’s acquittal, it’s worth noting that Tuff is a black woman who helped save a young white man from harm at the hands of police. Of course the race-baiters at Fox News, who were so agitated about the crimes of young black men a few weeks ago, have hardly rushed to emphasize that a young white man opened fire at a predominantly black school – let alone that he was helped to save his own life by an African-American woman (for example, check out how they approach these facts here).

    http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/the_story_the_right_hates_antoinette_tuffs_courage/

    Indeed.

  38. 538
    anteprepro

    KKKreationist sez:

    Granted, this was just a normal, decent, white kid, here on a scholarship.

    Yes, which, as you already mentioned, is in contrast to Trayvon Martin and his presumed “criminal career”. Not a wise time to double down. But you were never anywhere near wise, now, were you?

  39. 539
    anteprepro

    I don’t even know what I feel right now. Anticipatory schadenfreude mixed with righteous fury mixed with bemusement at the idea that a prolific creationist troll might wind up facing the banhammer for Fox News distilled racism mixed with cautious optimism mixed with doubt that this will truly be the straw that broke the camel’s back. It’s a strange cocktail, straight from Chateau de Wtfstfu .

  40. 540
    txpiper

    I’m not klan antepepro, but if you missed the signals on Trayvon Martin, it is because you didn’t want to notice. He was the one who resorted to violence, while Zimmerman was on the phone calling the cops.

  41. 541
    Weed(less) Monkey

    txpiper, from Pteryxx’s link @519:

    It’s not that difficult to understand so we’ll spell it out: It was not only that a light-skinned Zimmerman killed an unarmed black teenager — but also that police didn’t do anything about it. The killing was horribly tragic, as is Lane’s senseless murder, but if Zimmerman had actually been arrested for the shooting, the sad reality is that far fewer Americans would know his name. But that’s not what happened. Instead, police let Zimmerman go under Florida’s “stand your ground” law. It smacked of institutional, state-sponsored racial favoritism of the worst kind. It was only after public outcry that state prosecutors took over the case and pressed charges.

    That’s the difference between these two cases.

  42. 542
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Nerd, you are a classic liberal….your entire fragmented worldview is glued together with hypocrisy. Good show!

    And your world view is glued together with delusions and fantasies. We know you have nothing cogent to say. Your base is nothing but fiction….

  43. 543
    Pteryxx

    and then Zimmerman’s cell phone accidentally went off and killed Martin. Oh wait…

  44. 544
    anteprepro

    KKKreationist sez: I’m not klan antepepro,

    I’m sure you’re not. I’m sure you’re not.

    *weakly reassuring nod*

  45. 545
    chigau (違う)

    Show of hands, who can spell schadenfreude without looking it up?

  46. 546
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    but if you missed the signals on Trayvon Martin, it is because you didn’t want to notice. He was the one who resorted to violence, while Zimmerman was on the phone calling the cops.

    Delusional fool, Zimmerman was stalking Martin, and didn’t follow neighborhood watch protocol and left his vehicle to aggressively follow Martin. Martin could stand his ground, Zimmerman had to back down first. Show where Zimmerman backed down by leaving the scene…..Or shut the fuck up as a delusional fuckwit.

  47. 547
    consciousness razor

    How does txpiper manage to get more and more repulsive with every fucking comment? It hardly seems possible, after all this time, that not one redeeming thing ever comes out of his empty fucking head. He just drifts on to something else, some new garbage that’s somehow even worse.

  48. 548
    anteprepro

    Show of hands, who can spell schadenfreude without looking it up?

    Fucking silent “e”.
    (I somehow do remember that it is “sch” though. And with a memory like mine! Go figure.)

  49. 549
    Weed(less) Monkey

    chigau, easily. But I have the advantage of studying German since eighth grade.

    Too bad I’ve forgotten most of it: I can read it, slowly, but can’t follow or participate in a conversation. And the same goes for Swedish.

  50. 550
    consciousness razor

    He was the one who resorted to violence, while Zimmerman was on the phone calling the cops.

    Yep, there sure is that phone call of Zimmerman, in his car being told by the cops to stop following Martin because they would take care of the situation, at which time you can clearly hear, if you put your bigot ears close enough to the speaker, Martin initiating the violence.

  51. 551
    anteprepro

    That’s the difference between these two cases.

    Also: the white culprit. I presume that the white culprit listened to enough rap music or something that he is considered to be “Black Enough For Our Purposes” by Fox News and Fox Newsites.

    Oh, and I forgot one last ironic gem from the KKKreationist, upthread:

    your entire fragmented worldview is glued together with hypocrisy.

    Truly priceless.

  52. 552
    Owlmirror

    Y’know, txpiper, I’m not gullible enough to think that “I’ll get back to you in a couple of days” is anything like a solemn promise or anything, especially coming from like you, but I’m just curious — did you consciously think something along the lines of “I have no cogent response whatsoever to the questions asked about radioactive decay or the cosmic background radiation, so I’ll post some racist racebaiting instead”?

    Or was it all completely unconscious?

  53. 553
    anteprepro

    How does txpiper manage to get more and more repulsive with every fucking comment? It hardly seems possible, after all this time, that not one redeeming thing ever comes out of his empty fucking head. He just drifts on to something else, some new garbage that’s somehow even worse.

    Hypothesis: txpiper’s posts over time are an illustration of the Second Law of Thermodynamics as applied to ideas. Thus we simply await the absolute heat death of txpiper’s mind.

  54. 554
    Weed(less) Monkey

    Fucking silent “e”.

    It’s not: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/File:en-us-schadenfreude.ogg

  55. 555
    anteprepro

    Owlmirror to txpip:

    …did you consciously think something…

    To quote a Great Tool of Prophecy: All signs point to “no”.

    It’s not:

    Apparently with my hearing abilities, it might as well be!

    (I can hear it on that recording, but barely!)

  56. 556
    PZ Myers

    txpiper has puked up his last dollop of bile here. Gone.

  57. 557
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    again with the ilk? ILK PRIDE

    Seriously. I am Ilktopus and proud of it.

    ***
    I can spell schadenfreude without having to look it up. Always have been a spelling nerd.

  58. 558
    Inaji

    PZ:

    Gone.

    Thank you.

  59. 559
    Pteryxx

    Thanks PZ.

  60. 560
    consciousness razor

    Well, there might be two issues with that. First, the second law is statistical, whereas whatever forces are involved in txpiper’s increasing repulsiveness seem to be irreversible in the strictest sense. Second, I think the analogy breaks down insofar as none of his ideas have evidently had any capacity to be converted into something useful. They’re nowhere to be found on the “usefulness” chart, like other (relatively good and bad) ideas are.

  61. 561
    anteprepro

    And there was much rejoicing.

    I will remember that among txpiper’s last words was that enthusiastic reassurance that they were not racist, in that stellar, heartfelt admission, that confident attempt to clear their own name of charges of racism. The bold claim, the brilliant refutation. The statement: “I am not klan”.

    “I am not klan” indeed. “I am not klan” indeed.

  62. 562
    consciousness razor

    “I am not klan” indeed. “I am not klan” indeed.

    Totally not klan. Neo-nazi theocrat, sure. But the KKK? Heavens, no. It’s mostly because they have better bingo tournaments.

  63. 563
    chigau (違う)

    It smells better already.
    What shall we talk about now?

  64. 564
    athyco

    Adam Lee has said and is now saying the right things generally, but he’d have a stronger foundation for it were it not for his feet-of-clay posts about being a good ally for feminists back in March.

  65. 565
    Rey Fox

    I’m not klan

    Sadly, that’s how low the bar is here in America.

  66. 566
    omnicrom

    Good riddance. The only thing that makes me sad about Txpiper’s long overdue departure is he outlasted the dungeon so we won’t get some pithy last words to sum him up.

  67. 567
    John Morales

    “the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute”

  68. 568
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I have not seen such outright racism since…hmmm

  69. 569
    consciousness razor

    What shall we talk about now?

    Something new? Or would something old be okay? How about both?
    Nagel is at it again. I saw that yesterday and I’ve been laughing to myself about it since. And the talk of entropy reminded me to check if there was anything new at Sean Carroll’s blog, where I noticed he actually posted something about it. And now I’m going to put this here.

    Nagel sort of raises an interesting point in a roundabout way, but he goes off the rails pretty quickly. It’s kind of sad how this is going, because I think he used to have some good things to say now and then. I’m going to accuse him of scientism, as strange as that may sound. I think he’s looking for a scientific explanation of something which is a philosophical problem. I’m sure there will be better and better scientific explanations of how consciousness happens physically (Nagel basically takes it as a given that this doesn’t and can’t happen, for no better reason than incredulity, which is just silly); but it makes a lot more sense to me to separate that sort of thing from a question of the form “what is having one of my experiences like, to me, subjectively?”

    So even though I’d say it’s a valid concern (when posed the right way), the way to address it is not to go do some science. Which is almost like the point he’s making, but without all of his nonsense (at least, mine is nonsense of a different kind). I don’t really get why he leaps to the conclusion that science itself needs to change, in some fundamental way, to accommodate that — not just subjectivity but also teleology, along with presumably whatever religious presuppositions that come to mind which anyone feels like dressing up in naturalistic language.

    But scientific explanations don’t have a fucking thing to do with it in the first place. What is so difficult about this? It’s like the way questions about “meaning” and “value” (which he also drags into the debate, obliviously enough) are not about what physical events cause them to happen. It’s just missing the point if you’re answering something like “how do we evaluate things or make moral choices” or “how do we go about attributing meaning to stuff” or “how did we evolve to do this,” if you’re supposed to be dealing with some other issue concerning why we ought to value certain things or find them meaningful. It’s a similar kind of deal with what my experiences feel like to me, or to you, or to Nagel, or to a bat, or to whatever the fuck it may be. Why would anyone expect science to explain that, when no matter what valid answer you might give it won’t to be in the form of an explanation anyway?

  70. 570
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    athyco:
    I was under the impression that Adam Lee has been a feminist (or ally) for some time now. Do you have a link to this ‘feet of clay’ business you speak of?

  71. 571
    Owlmirror

    Goodbye, txpiper.

    I won’t miss you.

    It was interesting honing my argumentation skills against your obdurate and obstinate ignorance and stupidity, and seeing others hone their argumentation skills, but you seem to have given up even trying to argue, and just want to vomit bile.

    I’d suggest that you try working your way out of the paranoid mire into which you have sunk, but of course, you won’t listen to me.

    For whatever it’s worth, I think the fact that you’re a racist shithead and a more general bigot is far worse than your tiresome science denialism assholery or even your unhealthy fascination with Christian eschatology and magical thinking.

    Do you think you can change your mind at all, or do you think that the only proper way to be is to be a racist shithead and a more general bigot, and all the rest?

  72. 572
    consciousness razor

    I also want to take this moment to note that Sean Carroll is a very evil mad scientist:

    For our purposes, avoiding Boltzmann Brains, we want the transition to happen quickly. Amusingly, most of the existing particle-physics literature on decay of the Higgs field seems to take the attitude that we should want it to be completely stable — otherwise the decay of the Higgs will destroy the universe! It’s true, but we’re pointing out that this is a feature, not a bug, as we need to destroy the universe (or at least the state its currently in) to save ourselves from the invasion of the Boltzmann Brains.

    When have the Boltzmann Brains ever bothered us?!? Why can’t we just leave the universe alone!?!1!!eleventy!!!1??

  73. 573
    Amphiox

    I have but one thing to add regarding the final fate of our dear departed texpip.

  74. 574
    Owlmirror

    When have the Boltzmann Brains ever bothered us?!?

    Boltzmann Brontosaurus treads on you and doesn’t even notice.

    Boltzmann Megalodon has teeth bigger than your hand and a mouth wide enough to swallow a Volkswagen.

  75. 575
  76. 576
    athyco

    Oh, and Ophelia’s post based on his first later included an update/retraction:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/03/who-is-more-mainstream/

  77. 577
    consciousness razor

    Boltzmann Brontosaurus treads on you and doesn’t even notice.

    Boltzmann Megalodon has teeth bigger than your hand and a mouth wide enough to swallow a Volkswagen.

    Two points, which I will divide into three for no particular reason:
    1a) It has been vouchsafed to me, by reliable sources, that Brontosauruses are actually Apatosauruses. Thus, Boltzmann Brontosauruses cannot exist, because strictly speaking they would be Boltzmann Apatosauruses.
    1b) Even so, their larger size would make them fantastically less likely to fluctuate into existence than a Boltzmann Megalodon. I know for a fact that one has never tread on me, and I certainly would have noticed if it had.
    2) I don’t visit the ocean often, so Boltzmann Megalodons don’t really bother me, at least not enough to destroy the universe. We should try more diplomatic solutions first, like economic sanctions or perhaps a celebrity concert to induce good will and share culture, so we can start a more friendly dialogue. If that fails, they’ll probably just fluctuate back into equilibrium soon enough anyway.

  78. 578
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    If you recall I was going to take a delegation of Chinese property developers to Europe. What transpired is that the Wealthy Director ™ got a call from the German Immigration Department. They asked him about his tourist visa. What was he going to do in Germany?

    “Business!”

    But then why was he applying for a tourist visa?

    “Because they are easier to obtain!”

    The result is we are not going to Germany anymore…

  79. 579
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Athyco:
    That appeared to be a misunderstanding on the part of Adam and Ophelia. They both misinterpreted Melissa’s comments.
    What am I missing?

  80. 580
    Nick Gotts

    I also want to take this moment to note that Sean Carroll is a very evil mad scientist – consciousness razor

    Has he not already managed to duplicate himself in order to be both an evil mad physicist and an evil mad biologist?

  81. 581
    athyco

    Tony, the details are different, but Adam Lee’s misunderstanding/misinterpretation predates JT’s “I’m going to set a marginalized person straight on how to express the way they feel because doin’ it wrong is bad for the allies that I identify with.” And, as you can see from the message of “we’re not all like that” on Lee’s March posts, he’s now at “it’s better to know how bad it really is” on current ones. Unfortunately, his focus on requiring recognition of allies meant that he wasn’t listening just five months ago. Things did not degenerate in so short a time. Ben Radford went on for four years. Shermer over who knows how many. Ashley Paramore waited until after the most recent TAM to post about her assault. It was there but being pushed aside for the discussion of ally recognition, for giving an organization time to get it right. The assaulted person was accommodating. The ally was looking for a cookie, center stage, in the spotlight.

    (One of his tweets between the first and second post)

    If you have the energy to write about this topic, you can at least acknowledge the existence of allies.

    Ophelia recognized her error with an update. Adam Lee wrote a second post making it sound as though there was a settlement via Melissa backing away from her error rather than repeating herself in a slightly different way. To do so, he had to ignore words (like again) in things he himself quoted. He had to paraphrase and interpret a single sentence from a 600-word post (in the middle of a series) to the level of quote mining. He elided points and ignored questions that went against him in the comments.

    There’s a discernible pattern of response and interaction that lead me to believe there’s little to no depth there. That’s why I’ll read his feminism posts with skepticism.

    http://www.shakesville.com/2013/04/and-then-this-happened.html

  82. 582
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    I know the Texpip got the boot, thank doG, but I can’t resist…

    “The Diversity’s coming! The Diversity’s coming!”

  83. 583
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    Are we taking bets on how long it will be before the texpip’s sockpuppet shows up?

  84. 584
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    Evolution i Sydhavnen is a large (170m long) celebration of graffiti and evolution in Copenhagen. And, yes, it has: Cephalopods!

  85. 585
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Theophontes

    That is epic :)

    If anyone wants to see the rest of it, I found a Flickr.

  86. 586
    Pteryxx

    Ophelia recognized her error with an update. Adam Lee wrote a second post making it sound as though there was a settlement via Melissa backing away from her error rather than repeating herself in a slightly different way. To do so, he had to ignore words (like again) in things he himself quoted. He had to paraphrase and interpret a single sentence from a 600-word post (in the middle of a series) to the level of quote mining. He elided points and ignored questions that went against him in the comments.

    There’s a discernible pattern of response and interaction that lead me to believe there’s little to no depth there. That’s why I’ll read his feminism posts with skepticism.

    http://www.shakesville.com/2013/04/and-then-this-happened.html

    That whole incident’s worth re-reading in light of JT’s massive racefail and the current revelations of just how bad it is (and has been) for just one marginalized group – women – in movement atheism.

    I don’t know how many times in how many different ways I can say this: Lecturing marginalized people on the ways in which they need to make privileged people more comfortable is not just failing to be a good ally; it is deeply hostile behavior that centers the comfort of the already-privileged. Maintaining one’s comfort cannot be an objective of someone keen to shed hir privilege.

    I genuinely don’t know whether Lee is failing to understand why this arc has been so deeply problematic, especially under the banner of professing to be my ally, or whether he is simply ignoring my argument in order to find some way to still be right by calling it a draw. In either case, whether it takes more empathy work or a willingness to shed the vestiges of gotta-win, to actually be a reliable ally he’s got to allow his privilege to be penetrated with the idea that cherry-picking and tone-policing and running marginalized people’s feelings and perceptions through a validity prism are all utterly incompatible with ally work.

    I’m offering that advice in good faith, to someone who says he wants to be a good ally.

  87. 587
    Entropy101

    It’s not only JT by the way. Patheos is brimming with the civility please tone it down or you will cause discomfort to your lily white semi allies tone trolls.

  88. 588
    myeck waters

    txpiper was trying to get banned for some time. I mean, he’s barely been pretending to argue for creationism in the last few months. But this last outburst was pretty fucking pathetic. It’s like he knew he no longer had a reason to be here but couldn’t stop himself, so he knew getting banned was the only answer.

  89. 589
    Rob Grigjanis

    CR @570:

    I also want to take this moment to note that Sean Carroll is a very evil mad scientist

    His true evilness is in leaving a rather important sentence until nearly the end (article here by the way );

    All of this, of course, assumes there is no new physics at higher energies that would alter our calculations, which seems an unlikely assumption.

    which makes the whole thing rather a shaggy Boltzmann story.

  90. 590
    Lofty

    txpiper was trying to get banned for some time.

    No-one sneers more loudly than a fundie with a bad attitude. He “kneows” he’s morally superior so insulting atheists is OK with him. Good riddance to bad dirtbags.

  91. 591
    Owlmirror

    Boltzmann Brontosaurus is not limited by mere human taxonomy.

    Boltzmann Brontosaurus is not limited by mere human concepts of probability.

    Boltzmann Megalodon is not limited by the ocean.

    Boltzmann Brontosaurus and Boltzmann Megalodon are not limited by gravity.

  92. 592
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Entropy101:
    Yeah, I can see that.
    Especially Dan “the Civility Pledge” Finke.
    That shit still annoys me.
    That he still doesn’t understand why people were pissed off …aarrgh!

  93. 593
    consciousness razor

    I see how it is: nothing but lies and deceit from you, “owl mirror.” I bet you’re working for them. Admit it.

  94. 594
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ CM’s

    Minitrue have been onto Owlmirror, aka Public Enemy Number One, for quite some time now. Nothing escapes the notice of the Politburo!

  95. 595
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    Ooooops! I meant CR and not CM’s…

  96. 596
    Inaji

    Entropy101:

    Patheos is brimming with the civility please tone it down or you will cause discomfort to your lily white semi allies tone trolls.

    I’ve gotten that idea quite clearly from the snippets pasted here from various Patheists. I’ve never bothered to click my way there.

  97. 597
    mikmik

    I’ve gotten that idea quite clearly from the snippets pasted here from various Patheists. I’ve never bothered to click my way there.

    I generally find it is easier to let other people to make up my mind, as well. Fuck research and first hand experience, it just makes it take longer to reach the conclusion I’ve already decided to make anyways.

  98. 598
    Portia

    I generally find it is easier to let other people to make up my mind, as well. Fuck research and first hand experience, it just makes it take longer to reach the conclusion I’ve already decided to make anyways.

    Yep, I have to read every piece of drivel on a shitty blog in order to make a reasonable judgment as to whether it’s worth the limited time I have on this planet.

  99. 599
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ mikmik

    Happens all the time. It’s called “society”.

  100. 600
    Inaji

    I generally find it is easier to let other people to make up my mind, as well. Fuck research and first hand experience, it just makes it take longer to reach the conclusion I’ve already decided to make anyways.

    *yawns* Yes, let’s leave out that whole reading part, shall we?

    I’m under no obligation to support Patheos or those who blog there. My time is rather limited, much like my ‘net access. Only so much time, energy, access and money. I am indeed an evil, terrible, mindless sheep for making decisions in how to spend all that stupid stuff. Yep.

  101. 601
    consciousness razor

    I wouldn’t put Adam Lee or his blog in the same category as others on Patheos. The stuff athyco and Pteryxx brought up is new to me, so maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see what’s so bad. Perhaps an example of some bad writing, coming out of bad decisions about when is an appropriate time to make a certain kind of point. That’s blogging for you. He seems very serious about trying to have a good, positive life as an atheist/skeptic/humanist/etc., and my general impression is that he’s not at all inclined to take that in some weird, paranoid, anti-feminist, “what about the menz?” direction. So given his history, miscommunication, if that’s what that is, is a far more likely explanation.

    I’ve heard lots of good things here about Libby Anne’s blog, though for whatever reason I’ve only bothered to read it a few times, so I couldn’t honestly tell you much about it myself. Maybe it’s just that there are so many blogs and so little time. I generally ignore a big chunk of FTB too, unless something grabs my attention.

    Even at his most verbose, Fincke still has good and interesting things to say now and then. I think he means well when he does his civility schtick, which doesn’t really count for shit, but I sort of get where he’s coming from.

    What JT and Hemant and Hallquist and RockBeyondBelief-guy typically write about just doesn’t interest me, when they’re not saying things that I simply don’t like at all.

    Then there’s James Croft and his silly temple of the future … or the past or the present or fluffy bunnies and unicorn farts or whatever it is … All kinds of issues there, but even he has his moments since I’m trying to be fair.

  102. 602
    Inaji

    Speaking of ‘net access, I’ve been happily amazed I haz it, given that my signal booster died yesterday, buuuut, my wireless unit just did a weird thing, it completely froze up. I had to pull the battery to get it to shut down, so I could reboot it. I have a bad feeling.

  103. 603
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    EG is a strange little obsessive fool. He has just storified Chris Clarke’s list of favored tweets. A couple of days ago, he did the same to Adam Lee.

    I noticed this when I found an old tweet I sent to Zinnia about how churches collapse when I enter them. I was trying to understand how this was an example of “feminists saying foolish things” (As Richard Reed claims.) I had to read the small print. (Yes, I need better glasses.)

    Strange little man.

  104. 604
    Inaji

    Janine:

    EG is a strange little obsessive fool. He has just storified Chris Clarke’s list of favored tweets. A couple of days ago, he did the same to Adam Lee.

    In moments like this, I’m very happy I don’t tweeter.

  105. 605
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    But remember, EG is just collecting public words. You have no problem with government agencies doing this. So why complain about EG? (Seriously, an argument I saw by an EG supporter.)

  106. 606
    Inaji

    Janine:

    You have no problem with government agencies doing this.

    Well, actually…

    Holy rats, the idiocy. It runs amok.

  107. 607
    Pteryxx

    cr: for what it’s worth, I could not say *enough* good things about Libby Anne’s blog. The only reason I don’t check it daily is that her posts are so interesting and informative, and the discussion in comments so rich, that it would take more time than I have to keep up with it all. Also, since she specializes in deconstructing fundamentalism, a lot of it is triggering to me.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/08/male-atheists-and-white-knight-sexism.html

    I don’t blog about the damage I’ve seen religion do to women so that atheism can win new members. I blog about it because I care about women, and want to make the world a better place for them regardless of what religion or lack thereof they choose to adhere to. I don’t blog on this topic so that atheists can work themselves up about how horrible religion is. I blog because I believe that change is possible in every arena. My enemy is not religion—it is sexism and misogyny. And as Jack has once again reminded me, the two—religion and sexism/misogyny—are absolutely not identical.

    As for Adam Lee, I’m inclined to think he’s really trying and his heart is in the right place as an ally, but that’s all the more reason to look closely at how his behavior in the linked Shakesville incident above parallels almost exactly what JT is now doing. (Ophelia did apologize, but it took her three days of commenters pushing her before she caught on. We’d do well to remember how easily allies fall into this trap and how hard it can be to see past it.)

  108. 608
    Pteryxx

    *addendum – PZ apologized to Melissa McEwan also, quite readily, though I’m not sure he realized what the problem actually was. So there’s yet another perspective.

  109. 609
    cicely

    txpiper has puked up his last dollop of bile here. Gone.

    “And there was much rejoicing.”
    *Yay!*
    -

  110. 610
    Owlmirror

    I see how it is: nothing but lies and deceit from you, “owl mirror.” I bet you’re working for them. Admit it.

    Where they are the 𝕯𝕺𝖀𝕭𝕷𝕰𝕻𝕺𝕻𝕰 of the One Holy Caffeinated Diastolic Church of Boltzmannbrontosaurusism and the One Wholly Catastrophic Stochastic Church of Quantum Boltzmannbrontosaurusism.

    Yes, it’s all too true.

    If the Doublepope were here, doing a proper job of doublepoping the doublepapacy, I wouldn’t have to be defending the false orthodoxy of Boltzmannbrontosaurusism. Of course, I have to defend it, because if I made Bolzmannmegalodonism and Philolsophical Zombie Jesusism the orthodoxy, I wouldn’t be a Heresiarch anymore!

    Do you know how it feels, having to do someone else’s job just so I can keep my own? It’s terrible!

    Minitrue have been onto Owlmirror, aka Public Enemy Number One, for quite some time now. Nothing escapes the notice of the Politburo!

    I defy you all!!! . . . !!

    Signed,
    𝕻𝖚𝖇𝖑𝖎𝖈 𝕰𝖓𝖊𝖒𝖞 № 𝟙
    and
    𝕳𝖊𝖗𝖊𝖘𝖎𝖆𝖗𝖈𝖍

  111. 611
    chigau (違う)

    Owlmirror #608
    damn
    I wonder what that looks like on a real computer?

  112. 612
    Owlmirror

    ???

    What does it look like on yours?

    And why is it not a real computer?

  113. 613
    chigau (違う)

    Owlmirror
    I see lots of little boxes.
    I’m using an iPad.
    I would hafta stand up and go upstairs to get to the real computer.
    not gonna happen

  114. 614
    David Marjanović

    It’s blackletter:

    DOUBLEPOPE
    Public Enemy N° 1
    Heresiarch

  115. 615
    Owlmirror

    If you don’t understand recursion, see: “recursion”

    That is brilliant.

    Owlmirror, I will likely never get the opportunity to use this. If I do, I’m sure to forget to attribute it to you, but I’ll know it was someone else who came up with it.

    Here’s me, citing you as a source, so when I plagiarize you later I can’t get called on it.

    But . . . The original use of that dates back to the Jargon File.

    http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/R/recursion.html

    Of course, I decided that it needed fixed because recursion is not (or should not) be an infinite loop, hence my version (with explicit inclusion of context, and a terminating state), which is, as far as I know, original to me.

  116. 616
    consciousness razor

    I don’t blog about the damage I’ve seen religion do to women so that atheism can win new members.

    Great. That would be a shitty reason to care about it, and it wouldn’t be relevant to a lot of religious beliefs anyway (as she points out elsewhere, actually).

    I don’t blog on this topic so that atheists can work themselves up about how horrible religion is. I blog because I believe that change is possible in every arena. My enemy is not religion—it is sexism and misogyny.

    That’s unfortunate. I suppose I’ve got more than one enemy, and I don’t think it ought to be put this way if indifference toward religion isn’t what it’s meant to convey. But since a significant portion of the article makes some vague claims about how nice some religions are, I’m guessing that’s actually not that far from the attitude she’s really expressing here.

    Also, there are reasons why she blogs, and there also reasons for atheists to work themselves up into a lather, about religion or whatever it may be. Those aren’t the same thing, and the latter doesn’t depend on the former. I’m not sure what a statement of purpose about her blog has to do with the the overall topic anyway — it’s sort of a weird conclusion, unless it’s supposed to be sending a message to some kind of reader or another, atheist or theist or I don’t who.

    As for Adam Lee, I’m inclined to think he’s really trying and his heart is in the right place as an ally, but that’s all the more reason to look closely at how his behavior in the linked Shakesville incident above parallels almost exactly what JT is now doing.

    I don’t see a need for “all the more reasons” than in an ordinary case, but more to the point, I don’t see much of a parallel. In a lot of ways, JT’s “heart” just doesn’t seem to be “in the right place,” so to speak. More literally, it’s like his head is in the wrong place: up his ass. In general. I don’t get that general impression from Adam.

    Also from that article, an imperative (an ought claim? a claim about efficacy?) which I don’t think is fair:

    This approach is so, so very wrong. If you want to persuade someone of your beliefs, you don’t do it by insulting them, being condescending toward them, and refusing to listen to them.

    Refusing to listen? Sure, that isn’t a good approach, although sometimes their beliefs just aren’t relevant so there’s no need to listen to that. All of the other stuff lumped in with it? I think it’s a lot more complicated. Not just because of what’s good, or because of what’s effective, or because of what kinds of decisions we can make about both of those. It’s also because people mean a lot of different things by them (including “persuade”).

    ——

    Of course, I have to defend it, because if I made Bolzmannmegalodonism and Philolsophical Zombie Jesusism the orthodoxy, I wouldn’t be a Heresiarch anymore!

    Everything you say is all nonsense. There is abundant evidence that I’m the first and only true claimant of popetude in the thunderdome, as well as that the concept of a doublepope is a fiction which was invented purely for marketing purposes. Google it or something. You and sgbm can lie to each other all day about which of you is more heretical than the other, and it wouldn’t concern me in the slightest. I’m so much more of an arch public enemy that theophontes and his little gang of wannabe-tyrants don’t even count me as a suspect. They’re too corrupted by my nearly infinite power to publicly acknowledge a blatant admission like this. And if they indicate otherwise, it will all be part of my plan which I will tell you nothing about. Anyway, it’s obvious you’re all working for the poopyhead as his sockpuppets, and the whole rebellion thing was a fake just to get more page hits (90% of which come from PZ himself, having been convinced it was real, being the poopyhead that he is). So that by itself invalidates everything you’ve said.

  117. 617
    Owlmirror

    I know nothing of this “i . . . Pad” of which you speak, but a quick Google for [iPad Unicode] finds this free app:

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/unicode-maps-free/id368394740?mt=8

    Does that help, or does it just make things worse?

  118. 618
    chigau (違う)

    Owlmirror
    I downloaded it.
    nothing happened

  119. 619
    Owlmirror

    Everything you say is all nonsense.

    Oooh! You realize, of course, that this means WAR!

    Listen up, you hideous horrible disreputable excuse of a jigging jumped-up johnny-come-lately! Do you have even the slightest inkling of the deep and impenetrable mystery that is the Divine Grace of Qualia? Have you ever seen the ineffable sight of a vast and swirling cloud of cosmic dust slowly but surely coalescing into the majestic and giant torpedo-like shape of a Boltzmann Megalodon? Do you have any idea of how utterly and totally sacred are the solemn silent sacred truths of the heresies that I hold to? Have you been privileged to bear witness to the attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion? Did you watch C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate? Have you ever exercised your tongue in repeating the sacred ritual of the licks to get to the center of the mysterious Tout-Suite Paup? Have you any conception of the great importance of the Sermon to the Primitive Screw-Heads? Do you even care whether it is the Season of Ducks or the Season of Rabbits?

    WERE YOU THERE?

  120. 620
    chigau (違う)

    Oh my…
    erudition…
    I’ll be in my bunk

  121. 621
    Rutee Katreya

    Wikipedia tells me a Boltzmann Brain is exactly what I think it is. Which is surprising, because I figured Genius: The Transgression would have taken some liberties with the idea.

  122. 622
    cunninglingus

    Just felt the urge to share this … NO particular reason.

  123. 623
    Inaji

    Do you even care whether it is the Season of Ducks or the Season of Rabbits?

    Oh gods, now I’m really going to hafta go get my Looney Tunes Golden Collection, volumes one and two.

  124. 624
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Wabbit Season!!

  125. 625
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Why do I keep geting ads for ‘light up bra’s’ on FtB? Is the Hivemind collective trying to subliminally tell me something?

  126. 626
    chigau (違う)

    Be vewy quiet…

  127. 627
    chigau (違う)

    Tony
    I’m getting ads for hand-held USB microscopes.

  128. 628
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Tony: the powers of your mind control the ads. If you are not really into luminescent underthings, you are doing it wrong. Your mind is become polluted, in other words, with the thoughts of others*. This isn’t good at all, because the advertisement is rendered fail. I, on the other hand, have focused my, like, energies so that I may view the video that Google doesn’t want me to see. I’ve beat Google, understand? They hire the smartest people in the world and I beat them, simply by thinking hard, with my eyes closed and pointer-fingers held at 23 degrees to my temples.
     
    *post hoc hypothesis: my powers of ad control have grown so strong that I am now controlling your ads. Just throwing that out there. Putting a pin in it, so to speak. Tell me more about these brassieres.

  129. 629
  130. 630
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    A.E.
    Defeating Google aint’t thang.
    Talk to me when you have more impressive feats under your belt such as going toe to toe with Apple.

  131. 631
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Well. Maybe my powers aren’t that strong. I envisioned a whole lineup of illuminated underthings to fit all tastes and eras*, rather than the humdrum catalogue offers in that ad. And the $5 gift certificate? Please.

    *Although, it may be that a full Victorian getup would violate fire codes in most municipal areas. I can’t say. They don’t provide tech-specs regarding lumens and exothermy. So. Not my work at all.

  132. 632
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Whatevs, Tony. Notice that the Apple logo has a bite missing. I did that. With my mind.

  133. 633
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Antiochus Epiphanes
    Well, per their website they use standard electroluminescent wire, so there’s no reason they couldn’t be made in full victorian rigs. You’d probably need more than 2 AA batteries for an all say charge though.

  134. 634
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    USB microscopes

    Trying to keep a beady eye on the “Benign, Benevolent, Malevolent Dictator For Life”, TwoIC?

    You should be using the handy Politcam rather…

    @ AE

    My ads are starting to show the 808-#16 keyring cams. Methinks thou days art numbered!

  135. 635
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ moi

    808-#16 keyring cams

    Holy fuck, one can actually Google that shit.

    [thinks: "perhaps MY days art numbered"]

  136. 636
    blf

    Of course, I decided that it needed fixed [sic] because recursion is not (or should not) be an infinite loop, hence my version (with explicit inclusion of context, and a terminating state), which is, as far as I know, original to me.

    Not really. From Ye Pfffft! of All Knowledge, credited to Andrew Plotkin:

    If you already know what recursion is, just remember the answer. Otherwise, find someone who is standing closer to Douglas Hofstadter than you are; then ask him or her what recursion is.

  137. 637
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ blf

    Also: According to Dawkins, the monkeys go back in time all the way to the Rift Valley .. and then back past you round about Zanzibar…

    We cannot escape.

  138. 638
    Inaji

    Rats! Crackers and Chocolate Milk, Oh My!

  139. 639
    blf

    Forty foot killer chocolate rat crackers!

  140. 640
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

    Who would have thought the world would end … with hot chocolate and rodents???

  141. 641
    Inaji

    Theophontes:

    Who would have thought the world would end … with hot chocolate and rodents???

    Oh, now if you want an apocalypse, put out hot chocolate (dark chocolate for preference, to ensure an apocalypse, use Green & Black’s organic cocoa powder, with homemade whipped cream) for rats. Nothing would stand a chance against the swarm in reaching the holy grail that is hot chocolate.

  142. 642
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Hmm…The Redhead’s college roommate that recently visited had a psych lab rescue rat called “ratsky” (the ex-roommate is of Polish descent”.) Typical college male, it could live on pizza and beer, and knew the local pizza’s place touch tone rings…*start the cage rattling….*

  143. 643
    Inaji

    Nerd:

    Typical college male, it could live on pizza and beer, and knew the local pizza’s place touch tone rings…*start the cage rattling….*

    :D Rats are uncommonly fond of pizza, and yes, they learn very quickly!

  144. 644
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    I need one of those key ring cams immediately. And a droneish remote control airplane. And then I, Antiochus Epiphanes will wrest control from the block watch* and the neighborhood will belong to me!
     
    *Usurpers!.

  145. 645
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    (In all seriousness, my neighborhood block watch is over the top and one of them will shoot me one of these nights, so I need a way to ascertain their whereabouts at all times)

  146. 646
    John Morales

    AE, you might consider wearing a high visibility vest.

  147. 647
    bluentx

    (In all seriousness, my neighborhood block watch is over the top and one of them will shoot me one of these nights, so I need a way to ascertain their whereabouts at all times)

    Ah-hah! Another reason not to move from this middle-of-nowhere-crappy-small- town.
    Then again… the local practice firing range is ‘just across the pasture’ from my house– so stray bullets aren’t an impossibility… and it is Texas [*shudder*].

  148. 648
    David Marjanović

    Caught up with Thunderdome 29.

    Caine, about 10 days ago you wrote:

    A number of Indian tribes counted on GLBT members of the community to do a lot of the primary work in child rearing.

    and then Dalillama added:

    It is my understanding that many of the Pacific Islander cultures do this as well.

    Where can I learn more?

  149. 649
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    bluentx: I too live in a small middle-of-nowhere town in Texas. Given that there are only a handful of such towns in Texas*, perhaps we occupy the same one.
     
    *winkie smile
     
    John: maybe something in paisley?

  150. 650
    Inaji

    David:

    Where can I learn more?

    You can start with Two Spirit people, which are known to most tribes, although names vary.

  151. 651
    John Morales

    AE, that was predicated on you worrying about being shot mistakenly.

    (You’re worried about being a deliberate target?)

  152. 652
    Rob Grigjanis

    David @646: I saw a program a few months ago on PBS which spent some time on the fa’afafine of Samoa. I forget the name of the show.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fa%27afafine

  153. 653
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    No, John. Just being silly. I do worry a little about being shot mistakenly. I sometimes like to work late and I almost always walk to work.

  154. 654
    Menyambal

    Txpiper’s been banned!?! Thank you, PZus!

  155. 655
    John Morales

    I’m not happy at Ace of Sevens being banned (current rape thread) because I don’t think it was merited.

  156. 656
    Portia

    Perusing the thread, your displeasure does not surprise me.

  157. 657
    John Morales

    Portia, it bespeaks of my modelling of PZ’s moderation policy being weak.

  158. 658
    Portia

    I’m glad you’re not the one with the banhammer.

  159. 659
    John Morales

    Portia, your response impels me to ask for elucidation: do you think I meant that my modelling was that PZ’s moderation policy is weak, or that I meant that my modelling of it was weak?

    (I hereby clarify I intended the latter, but your response best fits the former)

  160. 660
    Portia

    I read the former. I’m not sure what you mean by the latter. Sorry.

  161. 661
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I’m not happy at Ace of Sevens being banned (current rape thread) because I don’t think it was merited.

    I think if Ace of Sevens had bothered to link to one piece of evidence, be it of how statistics should be done, or of the subject manner itself, he wouldn’t have received the banhammer. Just his opinion was going nowhere.

  162. 662
    Portia

    So, if his behavior had been different, you don’t believe he would have gotten banned (Seems reasonable so far). But it wasn’t, and he was. I’m still not following your point.

    (Except I agree his opinion was going nowhere good).

  163. 663
    NightShadeQueen, resident nutcase

    I read the former. I’m not sure what you mean by the latter. Sorry.

    I assume John Morales considers himself bad at predicting who PZ will ban.

    —–

    TW: street harassment

    Dear people of Boston.

    Yes, I may make eye contact with you while I’m walking down the streets of Boston. Please know that this eye contact generally means one of two things: a) You’re interesting (unlikely) or b) I’m trying to figure out if you’re a threat to me or not (much more likely).

    Trying to tell the difference between these two? “Hello”, “Hi”, or maybe even “Hey” are decent openers.

    “Sweetie pie” is not.

    Also hint: People wearing earphones tend to not want to be bothered.

    Sincerely,

    Me.

  164. 664
    Portia
    I read the former. I’m not sure what you mean by the latter. Sorry.

    I assume John Morales considers himself bad at predicting who PZ will ban.

    Derp. I haven’t done any hard science in a long time, hence the terms going *whoosh*

  165. 665
    Inaji

    Portia:

    So, if his behavior had been different, you don’t believe he would have gotten banned (Seems reasonable so far). But it wasn’t, and he was.

    Ace of Sevens was asked, multiple times, by multiple people, to stop as he was causing considerable upset. He chose to carry on with the same thing he had already said a dozen different ways. He was given a warning of an alert sent and chose to ignore it. He was warned by PZ, and chose to ignore it. Other people, upon being warned, have taken the smart monkey option and left the thread. So, yes, if his behaviour had been different, he wouldn’t have been banned.

  166. 666
    Inaji

    Nightshadequeen:

    Yes, I may make eye contact with you while I’m walking down the streets of Boston. Please know that this eye contact generally means one of two things: a) You’re interesting (unlikely) or b) I’m trying to figure out if you’re a threat to me or not (much more likely).

    Trying to tell the difference between these two? “Hello”, “Hi”, or maybe even “Hey” are decent openers.

    “Sweetie pie” is not.

    Also hint: People wearing earphones tend to not want to be bothered.

    Aaargh. So sorry you had that happen. Here in ND, you get ‘honey’ a lot, such as “smile, honey, can’t be that bad!” Ugh.

  167. 667
    Portia

    So, yes, if his behaviour had been different, he wouldn’t have been banned.

    I read the thread, saw the warnings, believe the banning was warranted. Trying to suss out why John thinks it wasn’t. (After the false start caused by my misunderstanding what he was talking about).

  168. 668
    Portia

    Re: street harassment. It’s gotten to the point where I am initially very aloof (at the very least) to men I know when I run into them in public, if they call to me from a distance. Last week, an attorney I actually like pulled up to the curb as I left my office and said hello. I couldn’t see his face right away. I nearly panicked. I hate assholes for creating that mentality in me.

  169. 669
    John Morales

    Portia,

    I’m not sure what you mean by the latter.

    I thought PZ would have stood by his warning; clearly, Ace (as the timestamp demonstrates) had not had a chance to see it, but in the end it didn’t matter and that was made explicit.

    Therefore I was wrong in my expectation.

  170. 670
    Portia

    I thought PZ would have stood by his warning; clearly, Ace (as the timestamp demonstrates) had not had a chance to see it, but in the end it didn’t matter and that was made explicit.

    Therefore I was wrong in my expectation.

    I follow you now. So is your reason for thinking it unmerited because you believe the warning should have been allowed time to simmer?

  171. 671
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Ugh. My sympathy, nightshadequeen.

    Re: street harassment. I’m comfortably ambiguous in my gender presentation. Beyond people occasionally being confused about pronouns, this was never an issue back when I lived in the Las Vegas area. I’d occasionally get catcalls if I wore something that didn’t hide the female attributes of my body, but the “smile, it’s not that bad!” type of shit was definitely more common.

    And then…I moved back to my roots, out in the northwoods. And I discovered exactly how shitty it is to be gender non-conforming outside of a city. I’d never encountered that kind of naked hostility just walking down the street before. How dare I go outside. How dare I exist.

    It’s such a weird difference. In the city, I was largely invisible because I wasn’t giving straight dudes boners. In the towns around here (so glad I’m actually out in the wilderness now), I’m committing some kind of horrific crime by not giving straight dudes boners.

  172. 672
    Inaji

    Eh, in the grenade thread, B0nezbrigade didn’t get a chance after the warning, either. I think it’s really rough when that happens, because sometimes the hammer hits too quickly. That said, I’d think that when it comes to any thread dealing with rape, people would have at least gotten enough of a clue to refresh the thread prior to posting.

  173. 673
    Portia

    I think Ace of Sevens, particularly, was warned well before he got the red text of doom, even in warning. He persisted unreasonably. My heart does not bleed for him.

  174. 674
    John Morales

    Caine,

    That said, I’d think that when it comes to any thread dealing with rape, people would have at least gotten enough of a clue to refresh the thread prior to posting.

    I personally didn’t see PZ’s warning until after I’d posted, and that was minutes after — and I did refresh during composing (where, as I often do, I ditched 2/3 of it).

    Also, I think vilding1 and Ace of Sevens are in entirely different categories of people, and it irritates me to see them dealt with as a brace.

    Finally, I do note that it does seem your power as a monitor is not entirely hypothetical.

  175. 675
    John Morales

    Portia, have you any familiarity with Ace of Sevens’ posting history here and elsewhere?

  176. 676
    Portia

    John Morales,

    yes, I have a passing familiarity enough to have been surprised to see what Ace of Sevens was saying in that thread. My previous good impression doesn’t give me any reason to see their behavior in that thread as…not bad.

  177. 677
    Portia

    vilding1 and Ace of Sevens are in entirely different categories of people

    I agree with you. That doesn’t mean they weren’t both causing harm.

  178. 678
    John Morales

    Apropos, I miss the Dungeon.

    (I understand the basis for its abolishment, but I thought it added class to the place)

  179. 679
    Kevin Schelley

    The problem with Ace was that xe was posting from comment 28, and ignored multiple warnings from various people over the course of several hours that what they were saying was being harmful. Perhaps the banhammer was a bit quick, but they should have listened to those like Ogvorbis and Prax.

  180. 680
    Inaji

    MM:

    In the towns around here (so glad I’m actually out in the wilderness now), I’m committing some kind of horrific crime by not giving straight dudes boners.

    That’s more than a little bit scary.

  181. 681
    Inaji

    Kevin:

    The problem with Ace was that xe was posting from comment 28, and ignored multiple warnings from various people over the course of several hours that what they were saying was being harmful.

    Exactly. And when you are arrogant enough to think that being harmful to people who have been raped isn’t a good enough reason to stop, you shouldn’t be surprised if you go *splat*.

  182. 682
    Kevin Schelley

    Yes, the asses we get in these threads treat all of us as if we were operating with fluffy, pink lady brains, and could not possibly know what we’re talking about. It’s incredibly irritating and frustrating.

    This makes me think that the next sexist bic product is going to be fuzzy ladybrains for her

  183. 683
    Inaji

    Kevin:

    This makes me think that the next sexist bic product is going to be fuzzy ladybrains for her

    :snorfle: I would not be surprised.

  184. 684
    Owlmirror

    There are weird lags between when something is posting and when it shows up in the thread, especially in a fast-moving thread. Probably something having to do with web-caching and/or database locking.

    PZ is aware of this lag.

    Ace of Sevens posted nothing after 8:23, which was the same time that PZ posted his warning.

    At 8:25, PZ said that he did not care that Ace of Sevens had probably not seen the warning; he was banning him anyway.

    Also, I am not sure that Ace of Sevens is aware of the monitor system or what Caine sending an alert might mean, or if he should have paid attention to any warnings other than from PZ.

    Consider what the rules say:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/08/01/pharyngula-standards-practices/

    Warnings. If I make a comment telling you to knock it off and cool down, heed me — remember the first law. I get very cranky when I have to manage the comments. Also, if someone else tries to warn you, ignore them: remember the second law.

    The second law: There is no second law.

    Hm. I see that the old Dungeon page was a bit inconsistent with the Rules page on the topic of what to do or not when other people offered warnings — and of course, that page can only be found in caches/archives now, anyway:

    A few regular readers have been granted special email privileges. They have the responsibility of contacting me if a commenter is abusing the system. You might want to pay attention when they tell you to stop doing something; they know the rules here well enough that they know that when I’m alerted, I’ll probably do something rude and intolerant to you. I listen when these people email me:

  185. 685
    Owlmirror

    There are also The New Rules. Maybe these should be on a page easily accessible from the top menu?

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/08/06/the-new-rules/

    Here’s something new: I’m appointing certain people to be monitors. They don’t get any special powers or privileges, except that I’ve created a special email filter so that if they write to me with a message that contains the word “alert” in the subject line, I’ll be much, much more likely to notice their complaint and will check out the problem. If you’re not a monitor and you see someone running amok on the threads, just make a comment that asks a monitor to send up a signal flare — this will improve the chances that it will come to my attention. If a monitor sends me a message, they should also leave a comment that I will be on my way as soon as possible.

  186. 686
    Inaji

    Owlmirror, Ace of Sevens was not new here, he first showed up during the Tfoot debacle, and there were plenty of alerts sent, warnings posted and people getting banhammered in all those various threads. It’s not an awful thing to expect people to be responsible for their actions.

  187. 687
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Also, PZ has stated a few times that his patience with MRAs, trolls, and such is very thin in the wake of the grenade thread. So I get the impression that his finger hovers over the Hammer of Ban.
    Now, Ace of Sevens has not come across as any of those in the past, but he ignored warnings and did not take it elsewhere.
    In the end though, it is PZs blog.

  188. 688
    Pteryxx

    I’m not up for this. Ace of Sevens went right over to EEB’s thread on Almost Diamonds to go minimize the issue over there.

  189. 689
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I started reading the grenade thread – I was out of town & without internet access for the vast majority – I saw like 100 comments before I was gone. I thought it was a little surprising it hadn’t blow up quicker and bigger, but I thought it would be in the 500 to 1000 range like so many.

    Even 3d4k wasn’t 4k in *one thread*!

    So, I started reading through it 2 days ago. I knew it was going to be a slog, and I knew I would want to remember what was in it, and the names of the worst non-banned offenders.

    So I started an annotation file – color commentary on the unfolding event, if you will.

    I made it through the first 700 posts or so, with a decent collections of annotations (“this is what’s going on now,” “this comment made an impact on me,” “comments #X, #Y, & #Z are an interacting set of posts constituting a conversation about topic T,” etc.)

    But it’s so hard, and I know the worst is yet to come or it wouldn’t have gotten to 4k.

    If I were PZ, especially with the outside legal threats and harassment not even contained within the thread, after such an excoriating experience I’d be pretty thin skinned myself.

  190. 690
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    I’ll head over, Pterryx, but my daughter is just finishing snack & I have to brush her teeth & get her down after. I’ll do what I can, but I might not post there for an hour.

    I *will* post there, though. It’s the least I can do after failing to comment there the first time round.

  191. 691
    Kevin Schelley

    Ace isn’t spouting the same stuff as xe was in PZ’s thread…

  192. 692
    Pteryxx

    Ace may as well be, and it’s clear xe’s after the point of EEB’s story, not any specific answers from us. I even have half the info ready to refute it (several of us linked to false rape coding info in the Grenade thread, Dana Hunter’s, and elsewhere) but I just don’t have the spoons to take it on right now.

    I no longer have any reason to believe Ace was posting in good faith, though.

  193. 693
    Kevin Schelley

    Jonathan, der Ewige Noobe has posted in the Fake rape? thread complaining about the double banning. I’m not sure how to respond to it myself.

  194. 694
    Owlmirror

    After reading Ace of Seven’s comments on the thread, I would understand the point to have been against every argument made by MRAs/rape apologists: Actual false rape reports are not just in the single digits, but are almost certainly even lower than what the “official” statistics show because of systemic bias by the police and courts against rape victims. The idea that it is usual or common that a rape victim is just someone who would falsely accuse someone of rape because of “regretting it in the morning” is bullshit, and rape apologists should not get away with that bullshit.

    And so on.

    Did I misread something, or were people misreading Ace of Sevens?

  195. 695
    PZ Myers

    Blundering on and ignoring the protests of women asking him to stop on a thread about rape is so rude and insensitive that even your rude and insensitive host felt a great disturbance in the force…and when the two prime offenders in that thread looked ready to team up, it was time to slam that crap down. Pay attention to what other people are saying on threads, ‘k?

    By the way, NEW THREAD.

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