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Jul 02 2013

[Lounge #424]

waffles and strawberries

This is the lounge. You can discuss anything you want, but you will do it kindly. The last comment in the previous thread mentioned waffles, now I’m hungry.

Status: Heavily Moderated; Previous thread

680 comments

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  1. 501
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    they haven’t figured out how to bind demons to MP3 files.

    Not to worry. Microsoft has an app for that.

  2. 502
    rq

    Ogvorbis
    One day, that family from Latvia on your train will be my family. :) Except with three boys.

  3. 503
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Beatrice:
    Your link had a lot of relevant information. In fact I wrote a FB update linking to it.
    Thank you :)

  4. 504
    Tethys

    *adds to Oggies hug pile*

    Hi all. I hope you aren’t finding the discussion about teeth tedious, because I wrote David a long post about it.

    chocolate/boozes/earthworm pounce hugs!? as per your preferences.

    start scrolling now if teeth and apes bore you:

    David M

    Rotated with respect to what? Do you mean the labial side of the canine would face rostrally instead of rostrolaterally in a female?

    About “squared off”, I don’t think that’s possible to tell from such heavily worn teeth.

    The wear on Zinj’s teeth is not bad. If he was human I would estimate his age at about 55-60. I would estimate the first Para skull I linked as 35-40. I have seen many cases of much more severe wear in living humans. You should see what happens when teeth are lost and the opposing dentition hypererupts. We will not go into pathology. shudder

    Rotated in respect to the midline/sagittal plane. Male teeth (and jaws) are squarer, with sharper contours of the labial* enamel than female. They are much more perpendicular relative to the maxilla. Incisal edge wear does not remove these landmarks. The canine is much broader in men with the mammelon that forms the labial aspect being especially enlarged. The heights of contour and incisal edges are very different . Part of the difference is due to male facial broadening. This brings the canine out to a more prominant position, and consequently flattens the entire anterior arcade relative to female morphology.

    *labial = towards the lip, opposite of lingual
    mesial = towards the midline
    distal = away from the midline

    Here is a photo of some spectacular dental ceramic work. On the left is male dentition, center and right hand implants are female. Look carefully at where the highlights pick out the heights of contour, and which third of the tooth it is found in from gingiva to incisal edge.

    http://www.lmtmag.com/static/images/article_photos/416_5.jpg

    Males HOC falls in the median to incisal third. Female HOC is at the junction of the gingival third and the median third.

    The pic shows the difference in distal and incisal edge morphology well too. Males have defined distal corners that are distinct from the ridge that forms the interproximal contact area, whereas the distal lobe of females round and flatten out to the interproximal ridge.

    Photo source which shows the technical details of a porcelain build-up from metal understructure to completed full arch implant prosthesis. (again… stellar work)

    The reason why grazers – and some other mammals, like the gondwanatheres that lived before grass was a thing – have extremely high-crowned teeth is grit.

    Um….mammoths have broad flat teeth for eating grass blades, as do horses. Mastodon teeth are all sorts of pointy and high-crowned and they were browsers.

    In a meat-eater we’d expect much larger incisors and canines; instead they’re smaller than usual. We’d also expect narrower, not broader, premolars and molars, even in a bone-cruncher; compare hyenas or Tasmanian devils!

    Apes in general and humans especially evolved greater omnivory from a frugivore template. We have the teeth you would expect for that diet. Pigs and bears have very similar teeth.

    Paranthropus didn’t need high crowned molars because they had an enlarged mandible and posterior teeth that are three times the size of Homo, with a hugely enlarged grinding area. Keeping in mind the isotope data, I think they ate fresh grass shoots, and they ate a lot of grass grains* with meat making up a smaller portion of the diet. It doesn’t take any bite force to eat brains if you have hands and a BFR**

    *Africa has about sixty species of native cereal grasses.

    **big fucking rock

    Thanks for the tectonic animation. so cool..:)

  5. 505
    Portia

    Sonovagun. I’m going to have to have another talk with the neighbors…the landlord just has not created a separate enough living situation for renting out two spaces in this house. I really resent him for it. This time it’s the mailbox. They have sent their mail to my mailbox. I call it “my mailbox” because I put it up myself. I hassled for weeks with the post office and the other neighbors and finally put it up 3 blocks away. I get legal documents there (I tell people to use my PO Box, but they use my physical address pretty often). I cannot have other people going through my mail to get their own. I just can’t have it. Fuck.

    I’m so frustrated I feel like crying. I hate not having my own space.

  6. 506
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Not to worry. Microsoft has an app for that.

    There are some problems with it (it isn’t running on Win7, on computers that have kittens as desktop background and for users whose name starts with a P*), but that will be fixed soon enough, the patch is sure to be in the next update.

    *this curious problem appeared after the last update, right after that little issue with the locusts was solved

  7. 507
    Portia

    And I have a headache. I think I Need some ice cream. Whiiiine.

  8. 508
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Except with three boys.

    With or without trilbies?

    There are some problems with it

    Those are not problems. They are challenges.

    (it isn’t running on Win7, on computers that have kittens as desktop background and for users whose name starts with a P*),

    Okay, those are problems. But, seriously, how many people have a name starting with ‘P’? And kittens? As wallpaper? That’s just cruel.

    but that will be fixed soon enough,

    Are we talking about fixing the kittens, or the software?

    the patch is sure to be in the next update.

    Damn. I just got used to a laptop and now we’re going to patches? Nicotine patches. Nitro patches. Well, why not Windows patches?

    *this curious problem appeared after the last update, right after that little issue with the locusts was solved

    The locusts were the result of a misspelling of ‘locus’ in a geometry teaching programme created specifically for bible schools (any idea how hard it is to figure the area of a circle when pi=3 and you can’t find the locust?)

  9. 509
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    and you can’t find the locust?

    Please tell me this was accidentally misspelled

    Ah, no matter, it already made me laugh.

  10. 510
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    If anyone is bored, we have some Comfort-ing supporters in the Sleazy Ray thread.

  11. 511
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Tony,

    I’m tired and should really go to bed. I’m not thanking you for the tip.

  12. 512
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    [one of the quirks of technology]
    When I hooked up my WiFi system to my cable modem, the link to the WiFi router was a blinking red rather than the yellow/green (100 mbs) or blue (1000 mbs) I had seen before. Google didn’t seem to illuminate on the answer, other than acknowledging others had seen it. Finally, today, I used a utility which gave the speed of my etherlink as 300mbs. Which, turns out, that the speed of subset n of the WiFi network. Then I recalled, all the Google reports of a blinking red link were to WiFi routers…Eureka, a non-documented connection speed confirmation. Happy camper.
    [/quirks]

  13. 513
    chigau (違う)

    I am trying to keep track of MyPharyngula™ on the RealComputer and my new iPad.
    I do NOT recommend this.
    I’m missing out on SleazyRay.
    We have a house-guest so I cannot react normally.

  14. 514
    chigau (違う)

    Fine then.
    Sleazy Ray is the only live thread.
    I guess I’m for bed.

  15. 515
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Portia:
    Hugs.
    Sorry about the mail hassle.

    Would you like a virtual hot fudge chocolate brownie with your ice cream?

  16. 516
    John Morales

    Some here may find this interview of interest: One Plus One: Lieutenant Colonel Cate McGregor.

    Chief of Army’s speechwriter, and Army’s highest ranking trans-gender individual Lieutenant Colonel Cate McGregor speaks with Jane Hutcheon.

  17. 517
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Yeah, Sleazy Ray is the only lively thread of interest (not counting the Dome, because !!reasons!!) and Chris seems have flounced…

  18. 518
    cicely

    FossilFishy, congrats on achieving Full Operationalness at the new FishyDigs.
    Take ten. You’ve earned it!
    -
    *hugs* and Good Things for Ogvorbis. However….

    He failed. I am not a man, I am a human being.

    You are a human being—but that doesn’t mean you aren’t a man as well. What he was trying to make you into was not a “man”, but an abuser. If “man” meant what he defined it to be, then “man” could only be considered a pejorative term.
     
    You are a humane being, as well as a human being.
    :)
    -
    *beverage* for Portia, along with the daily *hugs* ration.
    Does seven minutes count as a sprint?
    -

    Do you have someone in meatspace who has an interest in atheism, skepticism, feminism (pretty much the topics discussed here at FtB)?

    The Husband, to varying degrees depending on topic, and most of my gaming group. And one woman who is no longer gaming with us, because her super-neat lab job interferes with it. And Sister1, and her daughter.
     
    Today at lunch, the conversation (with one of my friend/acquaintances) turned to religion and (somewhat) feminism. It went better than I thought, given that she’s very definitely religious.
    -

    How does:
    ‘We need to keep this money so that victims of priestly sexual abuse cannot receive it’
     
    exist alongside
     
    ‘We are the moral compass of humanity’?

    Very easily.
    “The Church and its reputation are of over-riding importance, here. And anyway, most of those “alleged victims” probably asked for it. And the others (those few, those litigious few!) should have kept their damned mouths shut out of deference to The Church and its Authoriteh.”
    -

    Somebody had to release the brakes (done fairly easily (yet another reason why railroads have their own police forces)) and then uncouple the cars to get them rolling.

    :( :( :( :( :(
    -

    It just got more horrifying…

    Yes.
    -
    -

  19. 519
    cicely

    *extra hug ration* for Portia. Plus *ice cream*.
     
    At work, we’re suddenly having to go to locking mailboxes; they’re all in a row, outside, and someone has taken to hijacking packages and checks. Which of course means that we can’t know when a customer has really sent us a check—but it failed to arrive—or they’re lying about it, hoping to avoid late fees.
    -

    Damn. I just got used to a laptop and now we’re going to patches? Nicotine patches. Nitro patches. Well, why not Windows patches?

    An aid to help you quit Windows? It supplies you with the full dosage of sudden Non-Responding Screens and audio failures?
    -

  20. 520
    John Morales

    Linked in PET: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-many-surrealists-does-it-take-to-screw-in-a-light-bulb-a-fish-the-most-highbrow-jokes-in-the-world-8691191.html

    Example: 9. When I heard that oxygen and magnesium hooked up I was like OMg.

  21. 521
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    ‘Sup, everyone?

    Obviously not caught up, but HOLY SHIT I JUST FOUND OUT THAT DROP DEAD FRED IS STREAMING THROUGH NETFLIX!

    *shakes fist at John Morales* I was going to go to bed at a reasonable hour…

  22. 522
    John Morales

    Like a grown-up? ;)

  23. 523
    chigau (違う)

    grown-up is over-rated

  24. 524
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Seriously. Fuck being a grown-up.

    ;)

  25. 525
    Portia

    I dunno, how long is a sprint normally? : ) It was a solid half-mile at my top speed…no idea how fast it was but it was just about five minutes (would have been seven at my normal pace.

    Thank you for the hugs and beverage and ice cream : ) I had birch beer (tastes like rootbeer candy) and key lime pie gelato. Omnom.

    Hi Alexandra!

    This is absolutely chilling, trigger warning for racism and white supremacy
    (I bet George Zimmerman is sorry he didn’t think of trolling the streets at night looking for people of color to hunt down…oh wait…)

  26. 526
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    cicely – *return pouncehug with chocolate, lots of chocolate*

    Dalillama – I’m so sorry about your ulcer. I hope you feel better soon. *gentle hugs*

    opposablethumbs – *return pouncehug with chocolate*

    Jadehawk – Good luck with your projects.

    carlie – I’m sorry about your tree. We’ve lost several due to storms in the past few years. Definitely sad and no fun. *hugs*

    giliell – Yay! But I’m very sorry you were put through so much by the school.

    David M – Congratulations! =^_^=

    Portia – Small victories are great. I find it best to take them where I can find them. :D Also, *hugs and chocolate ice cream* I hope they help.

    Tony – I love Talks with Tony and definitely will stay tuned for future episodes.

    Ogvorbis – You inspire me. *safe hugs*

  27. 527
    Portia

    Hekuni Cat:

    *sneaks around corner, peaks out*



    *POUNCEHUG*

  28. 528
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    I’m going to be at the American Museum of Natural History on Monday and Tuesday! I am so looking forward to it. It would be awesome if some of the Horde could join me (especially David M., with whom I would absolutely love to explore the museum), but I didn’t know I was going until the last minute. That said, if any member of the Horde is in New York City and wants to meet up, drop a note in this space before 9 am (eastern time) on Sunday (July 7). I won’t get an opportunity to check my email messages after that.

    In the meantime, I’ll leave this *huge pile of hugs and chocolate* for anyone who wants either or both. Have a great couple of days!

  29. 529
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Ooh, that was a very good *POUNCEHUG*, Portia. It should keep me going while I’m in New York. :D Keep safe.

  30. 530
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Ya’ll need to get onboard…pouncehugs are SO oldschool. These days we do Earthworm Pouncehugs! You have to crouch down on your knees, shake your butt and pounce.
    Dont ask why that is earthworm like. Just the first thing that came to mind.

    Now I have Crouching Tiger, Hidden Pouncehug wiggling arpund my head. Bedtime it is.
    ****
    Hekuni Cat:
    Thanks.
    I really do hope that something I say benefits my coworkers in some manner.

  31. 531
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    The Wall Street Journal published an editorial saying:

    Egyptians would be lucky if their new ruling generals turn out to be in the mold of Chile’s Augusto Pinochet, who took power amid chaos but hired free-market reformers and midwifed a transition to democracy.

    So we’ve now got major media organs openly praising fascist dictators. Lovely.

  32. 532
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/christianity/fox-friends-upset-god-isnt-used-beer-commercial-video

    The bartender in the commercial (video below) is pouring a beer while quoting the Declaration of Independence, but he fails to mention “unalienable rights” were “endowed by their creator” while preparing the booze.

    Samuel Adams actually had to release a statement to Fox News as to why they don’t use God to shill their product: “While we understand your objection to the omission of the phrase “by our creator” in other circumstances (after all, they occur in the Declaration of independence which Samuel Adams signed and helped author) we believe it would be outside our industry guidelines to invoke those religious words in a beer commercial.”

    Fox & Friends fill-in host Jesse Waters was incensed that the creator of the universe was not being used as a gimmick to sell alcohol: “When political correctness takes over the beer advertising industry, the terrorists have won.

    I wonder how mad they got over the news that Cardinal Dolan moved funds from his diocese so sexual assault victims would not benefit from them…

  33. 533
    Portia

    Have a lovely time, Hekuni Cat :)

    Tony, I think your willingness to spark and explore these tough discussions is a wonderful quality :)

    Well, you see, it’s freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. Gotta sprinkle some Jebus in that beer, to make the intoxication spiritual. And that Cardinal dude is FREE to do what he wants with GOD’S money. Murka.

  34. 534
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Because the name of the award is the real problem:

    The former president was scheduled to receive an award from the university in September for “improving the human condition.” But the university is renaming the award after students and faculty were outraged at the idea of giving President Bush the award.

    “Former President George W. Bush left behind a legacy of human rights abuses, including the torture of detainees in extraterritorial jails, preemptive war, domestic surveillance programs and other egregious actions that deleteriously impact the human condition,” wrote University of Denver alumni Christine Hart. Hart wrote an online petition that has received over 1,100 signatures in the last two weeks.

    “As students, alumni, faculty, and supporters of the Josef Korbel School and the University of Denver, we urge you to choose an alternative recipient of the 2013 ‘Improving the Human Condition Award’ who better represents a humanitarian spirit, a commitment to human rights and human dignity, and whose contributions and leadership have truly resulted in positive change,” the petition reads.
    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/politics/university-denver-students-staff-outraged-plans-give-george-w-bush-humanitarian-award

    Spoiler: they dont name a different recipient.

  35. 535
    rq

    I liked this advice to parents.

  36. 536
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Tony (#534),

    Wow, that’s a spectacular case of missing deliberately shutting their ears, singing LALALA and ignoring the point.

  37. 537
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    rq

    I liked this advice to parents.

    Oh, dear lord the comments. Check out motherofnine9′s comment:

    I would be interested in your comments and reactions to mothers who observe that baby boys are very different than baby girls.
    http://www.blogher.com/nature-not-nurture-trust-me

    I do understand the main premise of your article and I agree with your points about society but I really do beleive that as mother’s were are not starting with a clean slatebecause there are core differences between boys and girls.

    I clicked through to her article/post, and it’s… wow. No. “Not even wrong” is an understatement.

  38. 538
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I have a friend who has a nephew (3-4 years old). I have only seen the little boy two times, but both times a whole production was made of his friendship relationship with a little girl in the kindergarten. Apparently, he didn’t let other kids play with her, and badgered her to play with him all the time.
    He was praised as “a proper little man”. It was all jokey, asking questions about his girlfriend… I don’t know why and how he fixated on that little girl, but I am pretty sure he is responding to all the praise he is getting for his behavior (everyone was so happy and proud, and I was a guest, so I was too cowardly to point out that someone should really do something about him bothering another kid to the point of not letting her play with others).

    Anyway, the other time, there was a boy mentioned who he wanted to spend all his time with. Now, his behavior was praised as having a close friend.

    Hey, but I’m sure defining the kid’s friendship (added harassment, if their descriptions are to be believed, should also be considered here) with a girl about being in love, and friendship with a boy as male bonding has no influence on the boy’s perceptions about what boys and girls are supposed to do and be. Nooo. Silly me.
    Nurture. Bah.

  39. 539
    rq

    WMDKitty
    That’s why I avoid the comments. :) Although you’ve made me curious (probably to the detriment of my good mood).

  40. 540
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Eh… I’m a little bit of a masochist, I guess.

  41. 541
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    I liked this advice to parents.

    That should be mandatory reading for all people before they procreate…
    Speaking of stereotype threat, I found another way to subtly tell girls taht maths is not for them:
    I bought the school-stuff for #1 and the booklets for writing sport a variety of animals on the cover. From a galloping horse over eagles to a cougar, so I’d say relatively neutral.
    The maths ones? People doing sports. Did I say people? what I meant was men, doing very stereotypically male sports (skydiving, motorcross, freeclimbing). It’s not like you couldn’t add some with women doing sports as well, playing tennis, or a woman doing freeclimbing.
    But no, those booklets tell very clearly that they are for BOYS and therefore maths is for boys. this is not for girls.
    Thankfully the teacher insists on plain coloured wraps around the booklets…

    +++
    And since I’m talking gender anyway…
    Yesterday set me thinking about the MRA whining point that it’s women who destroy families because they file for divorce.
    One of the kids’ mum and siblings came along, since the kid doesn’t want to seperate from her mum anymore after an ugly incident with her uncle. No problem, there was more than enough cake.
    So, the mum and I chatted a bit (we’re on, well, friendly-acquaintance terms, you know that kind of relationship) and she complained about her husband, who doesn’t lift a finger at home. She does 100% of the household, she does 100% of the childcare (and the oldest is not neurotypical while the youngest has developmental issues, so we’re talking about 2 special needs kids out of 3). He gets up from the couch when she calls for dinner and he goes back there when he’s finished.
    And apart from not taking part in the family-work, he also doesn’t take part in the family-life. He didn’t come along to spend an afternoon with his wife and kids and I’ve never seen him at any of the kindergarten-events.
    And she’s thinking about splitting up.
    In the real world he thinks he’s living in a hotel with the added benefit of somebody to fuck, in MRA-land this horrible bitch wants to destroy a family, rob a father of his children and fleece a poor, hard-working guy* of his rightful money.

    *Don’t know if he actually has a job…

  42. 542
    blf

    So we’ve now got major media organs openly praising fascist dictators. Lovely.

    That was the Murdoch-owned WSJ. Murdoch is known to have bizarre ideas about governments, freedom of the press, and independent and investigative reporting. For example, he testified thusly before a UK Parliament investigation into the phone hacking by some his newspapers in the UK:

    Probably the most telling statement the press baron Rupert Murdoch made during his abject mea culpa before the UK Parliament Tuesday was his praise of Singapore, saying “the most open and clear society in the world… is Singapore — the cleanest society you can find anywhere — as every minister is paid at least one million dollars a year and has no temptation to transgress.”

    What that statement betrays is that Rupert Murdoch appears to have no basic understanding of either independent journalism or democracy itself.

    Transparency International’s Corruption Index ties Denmark and New Zealand with Singapore at the very top of its corruption perceptions index. Leave aside the question of what the lawmakers of Denmark and Sweden are paid to maintain their integrity — a fraction of what Singapore ministers get.

    The leader of the world’s most powerful news organization, who presumably ought to believe in the independence and freedom of the press, was praising a country that most recently jailed the author Alan Shadrake for pointing out that Singapore’s criminal justice system is skewed towards hanging the poor and finding ways to excuse the wealthy and expatriates. Singapore has the highest per-capita rate of executions in the world.

    I myself stopped considering the WSJ to be a serious source of anything after it published an unsigned editorial that was nothing more than a fact-free rant objecting to the disclosure of the phone hacking — another example of a poor grasp of “either independent journalism or democracy itself”.

    Whether or not Murdoch’s bizarre ideas and authoritarian tendencies have infected the WSJ’s news operation is harder to pin down. Circumstantial evidence suggests it has. For instance, the WSJ did not, for a very long time, ever do anything more than briefly mention the phone hacking and related scandals in the UK (which include bribing the police). The pre-Murdoch WSJ would have been all over that for at least two reasons: It was a fairly good independent newspaper itself, and what was happening in the UK could affect Murdoch’s business interests in USAlienstan (and the WSJ is, primary, a business-orientated newspaper).

  43. 543
    blf

    Can someone remind me, please, of that Firefox addon thingie which helps to compose HTML (or BBcode, as I recall) for use when making comments here?
    Thanks!

  44. 544
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    the Text Formatting Toolbar?

  45. 545
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    blf
    Do you mean this one?

  46. 546
    blf

    Yep, that’s it! Thanks, Dalillama and Giliell.

  47. 547
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Hi Portia!

  48. 548
    Hekuni Cat, MQG

    Alexandra – *hugs* for you and Darkling.

  49. 549
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Good morning. I got drunk last night. Went to future in laws house and had: ten maraschino cherries that had been soaking in pure grain alcohol, two shots of Kraken spiced rum, one shot of Jack Daniels with honey, four Yuengling Lagers, and two cups of Sprite with Strawberry Shortcake vodka.

    Please tell me this was accidentally misspelled

    Ah, no matter, it already made me laugh.

    Intentional for humour.

    You are a human being—but that doesn’t mean you aren’t a man as well. What he was trying to make you into was not a “man”, but an abuser. If “man” meant what he defined it to be, then “man” could only be considered a pejorative term.

    Yeah. I should have phrased that, “He failed. I am not his version of a man, I am a human being.” Sorry.

    An aid to help you quit Windows? It supplies you with the full dosage of sudden Non-Responding Screens and audio failures?

    Would that be an iPatch?

    I dunno, how long is a sprint normally? : )

    Pretty small. ahem

    The overall length of the subcompact hatchback was a mere 141.1 inches, the width measured 60.3 inches and the height was 53.1 inches. The vehicle’s wheelbase measured a relatively short 88.4 inches. Its front track was 52.6 inches and the rear track was 51.2 inches.

    You inspire me. *safe hugs*

    Thank you, Hekuni Cat.

    These days we do Earthworm Pouncehugs!

    Which even has a Theme Song!

  50. 550
    kouras

    Ogvorbis @ #422

    Again, I look at it as cowardice, not bravery. I’m afraid of who I could have been and putting it out there for all to see is a way to exorcise my personal demons. They’ll never go away, but they are almost housebroken.

    It is a thing that it is hard to face and express, and your experience has been one that it would be hard for anyone to deal with. It may not fit with your own concept of bravery, but you are (AFAICT) fucking awesome, and what you have done over the past period is no small feat.

    -

    Tony! The Virtual Queer Shoop @ #438

    General question for all:
    Do you have someone in meatspace who has an interest in atheism, skepticism, feminism (pretty much the topics discussed here at FtB)?

    One sibling & one friend read here. Sibling used to chat about FTB postings over a game of Sims. The friend came as something of a surprise; after we’d met up a few times, xe gave me a Twitter name to find them on, and the three latest tweets were a reference to Surly Amy’s activities, a tweet @Crommunist, and a RT from @pzmyers. Xe reads here, but I’m not sure of what nym, if any.

    Most of the rest of that social group tend towards some variant of atheism and/or feminism, but there still are sometimes comments like, “it gets annoying when people go on about it,” and, “it’s okay if you don’t like random guys doing that, it’s just about the attention,” without much pushback. Some way off the way people here deal with those themes, although the reactions are interesting when there is an immediate reason to push on either point.

    -

    I was trying to lurk moar for a while, but still have about 2 months’ of comment threads to catch up on. Is it okay to ask a question about the Slymepit here, or would it be better to go to Thunderdome, or to just leave the issue be?

  51. 551
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I was trying to lurk moar for a while, but still have about 2 months’ of comment threads to catch up on. Is it okay to ask a question about the Slymepit here, or would it be better to go to Thunderdome, or to just leave the issue be?

    Since this is the thread for gentle words, and the ‘pit provokes strong ones, it would be best to take it to the Thunderdome. No need to ignore the issue.

  52. 552
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    kouras:
    Welcome to not-lurking-mode. Besides, if you waited to catch up, PZ would return from the Con and write some post that would balloon to 1500 comments in two days and you would get backed up again. I do think lurking and reading cam be a great way to get a feel for a blog. Especially one such as this.
    Also, I second Nerd’s recommendation.

  53. 553
    kouras

    Thank you. I’ve put it there now.

    XD I know that the pace here is remarkable. Last year, I thought it was great when I was bored. This year, one or two weeks out because of fieldwork, out-of-hours lab work or spoon shortages can mean more hours’ reading than I can easily make up.

  54. 554
    blf

    Oh FFS (another spectacular bit of logic found via FSTDT):

    Quote# 94488

    You have the whole internet at your disposal…so find me any fossilised evidence of an intermediate human specie?

    Example, two eyes must have evolved from one eye, so there must be evidence of when we all had only one eye?

    Paraphrasing Terry Pratchett, anyone that stupid would have never discovered slood. Slood is easier to discover than fire, but slightly more difficult to discover than water.

  55. 555
    Portia

    I posted that video about “White Student Union” on facebook, the white kids who formed a group and literally go walking around their campus at night and look for “black predators” …I got a recommendation to read White Girl Bleed a Lot…I don’t even know how to refute it. I feel like I’d have to read the whole damn book to take it apart and obviously I don’t feel like doing that. Even the lauding reviews from racists true patriots say it’s repetitive. : p

    Maybe I’ll just look for an endnotes page. (Of course, the first page whines about “liberal media” not covering the black on white crime epidemic, so…

  56. 556
    Tethys

    Where is our co-blogger these days? Isn’t it his job to keep us entertained while PZ is off in the big city singing and attending masquerade parties?

    There has been a distinct lack of bunnification in the threads, and the last comment I remember from him was puttung CHE in the corner for using a sexist slur on the soggy ape thread.

  57. 557
    Portia

    Even worse, the guy who felt the need to assert that black people do form marauding bands of racially motivated violent criminals…is a cop in a major city. Yiiiiikes.

    Anyway, good morning everybody. I don’t have a headache. That’s a win for the day. And I’m feeling motivated and good. Woke up and made a to-do list, which is a huge rarity for a weekend. It’s gonna be a good day.

  58. 558
    kouras

    Tethys

    Where is our co-blogger these days? Isn’t it his job to keep us entertained while PZ is off in the big city singing and attending masquerade parties?

    I get the impression he’s been busy recently.

  59. 559
    opposablethumbs

    Wow, blf, that is pretty impressive. Presumably the same goes for one limb or digit …. although of course the questioner themself constitutes a supreme example of a throwback to the human predecessor that only had one neuron.
    .
    very, very belated yay for Giliell‘s #1. Although maybe I can’t remember whether or not I forgot or remembered before … I hope I remembered, but in case I didn’t – yay! And argh for the passive-aggressive we’ll-just-ignore-everything-you-said scooter shit.
    .
    Ogvorbis I am often reminded of just how completely blown away I am by your achievement in becoming the compassionate, perceptive, funny, committed and good person that you are, despite that evil despot’s best efforts to the contrary. I’m privileged to have met you here.
    .
    Did I remember to say yay for the wonderful new FishyAquarium? I wish you all happy swimming there.
    .
    Newsflash: we have sunshine here. In Blighty. Real proper sunshine, the really-quite-hot-if-you-sit-out-in-it-for-a-bit kind, and it’s forecast to last several days!?!?!?.
    The streets are full of people flaunting their burnt bits; I can’t feel superior and sensible because I actually have to plead guilty to the tops of my shoulders myself.
    .
    Fruit juice and/or campari/Pimm’s/etc. and/or spritzers and/or chilled beer as preferred, all round. No, I’ve got it – A Nice Cup Glass of Iced Tea, that’s the ticket.

  60. 560
    kouras

    … Sorry.

  61. 561
    Tethys

    Thanks Kouras, and welcome to the lounge.

    We all bork the blockquote tags from time to time, don’t worry about it.

    It is good to have the link in the lounge so the horde will see it. Chris Clark has been dealing with malicious behavior from someone who needs to be an asshole online, and it is costing him money that he needs to live on.

    He could use some help, so anyone who can afford to throw a few dollars into his PP account will be very appreciated.

  62. 562
    Portia

    My mom went to church with her sister today as a way of fostering the relationship. She has been texting me the whole time. Luckily the pastor is so hip he advised his congregants to read the babble on their “mobile device.” ^_^

  63. 563
    Lynna, OM

    This may have been posted earlier in the [Lounge], when we were discussing Wendy Davis’s filibuster against anti-abortion bills up for a vote in the Texas Senate. If so, I didn’t see it. Apologies if this repetition.

    I support Wendy Davis, and I stand with her. When politicians try to restrict women’s rights, it hurts. These things should be up to women. There are a lot of different situations where pregnancy comes about – as a man, it’s hard for me to make a decision on that. It’s up to a woman how she wants to bring a child into the world, or if she wants to continue with her life and mature more and bring a child in when she’s ready. It needs to be an option. There are people who say, “Hey, you shouldn’t have sex,” or that it’s like killing a human. But my viewpoint is, I’m not the one having a kid, so why does my opinion matter? It should be up to the woman.

    I respect where the Republicans come from – I’m trying to understand their perspective. But I really do feel like it’s a woman’s choice. When it’s a bunch of men voting on women’s rights, I don’t know. How can a man really understand that? I’m not going to feel a woman’s pain and what she goes through. Observing from my perspective, and seeing what I see, I think women should definitely have full control over their bodies. …

    — Bay Area rapper Lil B writing in Rolling Stone.

  64. 564
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    It appears that our ‘nyms are now retroactive. :-(

  65. 565
    blf

    Apologies for all the recent FSTDT gems, but I haven’t giggled my through the archives in a long time, so am having a bit of fun turning my desk into deep well via repeated applications of the forehead. Anyways, another one:

    Quote# 92894|

    [Are you saying that because there's no life on the moon, evolution isn't true?]

    Yes its simple when will you see it.

    The mildly deranged penguin points out that means this dufus is unaware the moon is an orbiting cheese vault. And of course, by same logic, since there is no bacon in my refrigerator, bacon does not exist. Too bad that whilst the premise also holds for peas, it the conclusion does not hold.

  66. 566
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Kouras, tethys:

    Thanks for the heads up about Chris. I did not know about the shit he is dealing with. Donation sent.

  67. 567
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    blf:
    I followed your link, and was amused by this comment from Pete:
    ” Further on in the thread TW admits that he won’t accept anything, presumably including Jesus Himself stopping by and giving him a slideshow, as evidence of evolution. the poor thing sounds like he swallowed Ken Ham.”

  68. 568
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    FSTDT is… not the greatest. I used to be a forum regular until they banned me for pointing out that no, men don’t fucking get it, they’re not at risk of being randomly raped, so don’t tell me I’m “sexist and paranoid” for being wary of men, especially after the shit I’ve been through. Yeah, I did it really rudely, and I had to do it repeatedly, but this dipshit just kept posting “No, you’re just sexist and paranoid” and the mods allowed it. Told me that I, however, was committing an “ad hominem”. (Uh… it’s not an ad-hom if it’s documented fact, yeah?)

    This was shortly after Elevator-gate.

    So, they’ll go balls-out to “protect” trans*-people, they’ll accept any behavior as long as it’s accompanied by a whinge of, “but I’m an ASPIE*”, but hey, go right ahead and deliberately trigger an abuse survivor, and push MRA talking points, and bash feminists, and drive a woman to tears multiple times just because she dared to speak up, it’s all cool!

    *No offense to Azkyroth or anyone else with a legit diagnosis, but over on that particular forum, it’s used as an “automatic immunity from consequences” card, and that’s way uncool.

  69. 569
    blf

    And now for basic geology fail (via FSTDT):

    Quote# 92123

    “Mountains have been built up and torn down again and again. Tectonic plates have collided and divided again and again. This cannot happen in 6000 years time.”

    Actually it could and did take place over just a couple of years. The Bible says God raised up the mountains, leveled the plains, created valleys. So how do you know this “cannot happen in 6,000 years”? Were you there? Are you denying the power of God. Were you aware that Granite (the most abundant rock in our crust) MUST be formed within minutes to have the the particles, appearance, strength, etc. that it does?

    I liked this commentator’s response:

    According to Bishop Usher’s chronology, there would have been people present within a few days after the creation of the Earth, and humans were around except for the brief flood episode. Yet, nobody in the Bible ever recorded or told tales of the Alps or Himalayas forming, meteors making bus-sized craters all over the Earth, or liquid rock oozing up from cracks in the earth to form granite.

  70. 570
    kouras

    Were you aware that Granite (the most abundant rock in our crust) MUST be formed within minutes to have the the particles, appearance, strength, etc. that it does?


    Granite
    . The felsic, coarse-grained (i.e. slow-cooling) plutonic igneous rock.

    I guess it makes a change from people who don’t believe in subduction, but I suppose that person read this crap.

  71. 571
    PatrickG

    Threadrupt, but sometimes blinding rage just has to be shared.

    Female inmates sterilized in California

    Some highlights.

    Former inmates and prisoner advocates maintain that prison medical staff coerced the women, targeting those deemed likely to return to prison in the future.

    Crystal Nguyen, a former Valley State Prison inmate who worked in the prison’s infirmary during 2007, said she often overheard medical staff asking inmates who had served multiple prison terms to agree to be sterilized.

    “I was like, ‘Oh my God, that’s not right,’ ” said Nguyen, 28. “Do they think they’re animals, and they don’t want them to breed anymore?”

    Is this 2013 or 1970? I mean, seriously.

    The top medical manager at Valley State Prison from 2005 to 2008 characterized the surgeries as an empowerment issue for female inmates, providing them the same options as women on the outside.

    Yeah, because women on the outside are routinely coerced into sterilization.

    The 16-year-old restriction on tubal ligations seemed to be news to them, Barnett recalled. And, she said, none of the doctors thought they needed permission to perform the surgery on inmates.

    “Everybody was operating on the fact that this was a perfectly reasonable thing to do,” she said.

    What the I don’t even.

    Is it too early to get drunk?

  72. 572
    rq

    A word of warning for the earth scientists.

  73. 573
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    PatrickG:
    Agreed. That is reprehensible and the opposite of empowering women.
    ****

    _Talks With Tony_
    I had a chat with J, the guy who revealed his atheism a few days ago (he is a young, white male–relevancy is forthcoming). I asked him if he had any doubts about his non belief and he, without knowing it said the same as many of us (I’m fairly certain, but given that we cannot be 100% sure of anything, I accept the possibility, however remote, that I could be wrong. It is highly unlikely, so I live my life as if there is no god).
    I talked to him about my growing interest in activism, both as an atheist and humanist.
    The most exciting part of our conversation came when I explained privilege to him. Using white, male, christian, and heterosexual examples, I explained what privilege is–and he seemed to get it. Especially when I gave examples of straight privilege and christian privilege. It was not a long chat, but I came away happy to see that he learned about privilege and saw merit in the concept.

    Small victories indeed!

  74. 574
    David Marjanović

    Ogvorbis! *money bin full of fluffy hugs, so you can dive in like a seal, burrow through like a mole, and throw them into the air so that they fluffily land on your head* ^_^

    *pouncehug for Hekuni Cat* I won’t be on that side of the pond for another few months. :-(

    I wonder if it is a coincidence that this correlates well with the eastern edge* of early iron-age celts.
    * The celt sites in southern Germany were destroyed by the fifth century BC by migrations, and during historical timethe region has been inhabited by Germanic-speaking people.

    Highly unlikely. The surviving Celtic languages lack almost all of these features, as did Latin and Gothic and indeed Proto-Indo-European.

    The reason why grazers – and some other mammals, like the gondwanatheres that lived before grass was a thing – have extremely high-crowned teeth is grit.

    Um….mammoths have broad flat teeth for eating grass blades, as do horses. Mastodon teeth are all sorts of pointy and high-crowned and they were browsers.

    Mastodon teeth are not high-crowned at all by the standards of rhinos, let alone horses.

    But thanks for the explanations about male and female teeth! Now I’ll have to look carefully at every open mouth I see. :-)

    Keeping in mind the isotope data, I think they ate fresh grass shoots, and they ate a lot of grass grains* with meat making up a smaller portion of the diet. It doesn’t take any bite force to eat brains if you have hands and a BFR**

    I agree, and I see what you did there. :-)

    The Wall Street Journal published an editorial saying:

    I could not fucking believe it.

    So I followed your link, and yes, there it is, it’s the last paragraph.

    Out of words.

    Many comments call it out, though, and one links to a Guardian article titled:

    Wall Street Journal says Egypt needs a Pinochet – can it get away with that?
    The Chilean dictator presided over the torture and murder of thousands, yet still the free-market right reveres his name”

    Apparently, he didn’t let other kids play with her, and badgered her to play with him all the time.
    He was praised as “a proper little man”.

    what

    *pours 10 liters of courage into USB 3.0*

    Next time you meet them, give them a What The Hell, Hero? moment.

    *strong chocolate*

  75. 575
    David Marjanović

    Is this 2013 or 1970? I mean, seriously.

    As I keep saying in such moments, it’s only 63. 63 After Present.

    A word of warning for the earth scientists.

    Wow. That’s the dumbest thing I’ve read all month! :-)

  76. 576
    Portia

    Patrick G:

    In yet another sick misogynist irony, women “on the outside” are often denied sterilization on the claim that “they’ll change their minds, all women want children.”

    Tony:

    Very nice! When someone gets it, it’s always such a nice feeling!

  77. 577
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Ogvorbis! *money bin full of fluffy hugs, so you can dive in like a seal, burrow through like a mole, and throw them into the air so that they fluffily land on your head* ^_^</blockquote

    Thank you.

    I read over what I wrote the other day adn I'm amazed. Two years ago, I didn't remember any of that (other than 'I didn't like Cub Scouts'). Y'all have helped me a lot. Thank all of you.

  78. 578
    PatrickG

    @Tony: Yay for small victories!

    @ Portia: Yeah, that was something that boggled my mind too. Not least for that odious claim, but also for the fact that it’s not exactly an inexpensive surgery (even with insurance). My mother had a tubal ligation after my sister was born, and even as a medical professional she got all sorts of shit (and costs) for it.

  79. 579
    cicely

    It appears that our ‘nyms are now retroactive. :-(

    :(
    Do Not Want.
    It sucks all the fun right out.
    -

    In yet another sick misogynist irony, women “on the outside” are often denied sterilization on the claim that “they’ll change their minds, all women want children.”

    Yes, indeed. Or, “You may remarry, and your husband may want children”.
     
    I’m thinking that, if the racial proportions in women’s prisons are about like they are in men’s prisons, this would be thinly-concealed, racially-based “eugenics”, of a sort we’ve seen many times/places before.
    -

  80. 580
    chigau (違う)

    Hello?

  81. 581
    Jadehawk

    FML

  82. 582
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Shit, Jadehawk… are you okay?

  83. 583
    chigau (違う)

    Jadehawk
    That sucks.
    Are you OK?

  84. 584
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Jadehawk
    Shit! Are you alright?

  85. 585
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Jadehawk:
    I’m sorry to see that.
    I am in the same boat.
    I hope you are ok.

  86. 586
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    *No offense to Azkyroth or anyone else with a legit diagnosis, but over on that particular forum, it’s used as an “automatic immunity from consequences” card, and that’s way uncool.

    Thanks for the acknowledgment. I have…mixed feelings about the whole thing.

  87. 587
    Jadehawk

    bruises on the shins, but otherwise fine. that would have been a lot less dramatic if there was such a thing as standardized bumber height for sedans. as it is, the cheap parts are fine, the expensive parts are bend out of shape and replacing them would probably cost more than the car is worth

    *sigh*

  88. 588
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Ouch, Jadehawk, sorry to hear about the accident and additional costs. I’m glad you didn’t get hurt.

  89. 589
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Oh fuck Jadehawk I’m sorry.

  90. 590
    rq

    Jadehawk
    I’m glad you’re (mostly) ok and I’m sorry about the extra costs. :(

    +++

    Doctor Puppet. Is this a good way to start watching Doctor Who? :)

  91. 591
  92. 592
    rq

    Tony
    Interesting article.
    If wine-tasting is so sensitive, then it’s really no surprise that results may vary so much – because each tasting has so many different variables that can influence smell (location, weather, atmospheric pressure, mood, small changes in body chemistry, etc.).
    I think it comes down to the fact that people drink what they like, but I suppose there’s too much prestige in the wine industry to let these sorts of tasting contests be assigned to history.

  93. 593
    rq

    I meant ‘consigned’.

  94. 594
    WMDKitty -- Survivor

    Off to bed for me. G’night

  95. 595
    rq

    Night!

  96. 596
    opposablethumbs

    Argh, Jadehawk, I’m sorry (it looks like a JCB monster with crusher jaws tried to take a bite out of it and failed). Just glad you’re not injured, but bloody hell for the finances :-(((

  97. 597
    Portia

    Sorry, Jadehawk, that really blows. : (

    I have to get back in the swing of regular life after a four day weekend on four hours of sleep. Thunderstorm + fire call and not being able to get back to sleep. It’ll be ok. It’ll be fine. To the coffeemaker! :)

  98. 598
    birgerjohansson

    Swede bloodied in surprise beaver attack http://www.thelocal.se/48932/20130708/
    The mutant beavers are coming!
    (alas, no interesting fauna where I live. I am so bored I was actually glad to be back from vacation today)

  99. 599
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    Okies, I spent the entire week at my parents, and then the entire evening with the woman with whom I am enamored.

    And now I’ve got the huge decision of me to worry about. I don’t know so much about maintaining the whole transgender air, since I’m not seriously that broken up about it most of the time and I really think if I was that interested in transitioning, I’d already have done so.

    I do not have a static identity, I know that much. Most of the online stuff I tend to do is under the association of a female nym, but outside the Internets I associate with a male identity. I dunno what to call that, but I don’t think it’s transgenderism.

    But at the same time, I worry I’m doing this because I like this woman a lot and am worried she’ll leave if I tell her anything about that. It’s really confusing, TBH, and I just don’t know how to approach it with any real objectivity.

    I’m going to probably shift to a more neutral nym in the future.

  100. 600
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Katherine:
    I wish I were able to help somehow, but all I have is unconditional moral/emotional support and hugs for you.

  101. 601
    carlie

    *big hugs*, Katherine. I think just the fact that you realize your new interest may have something to do with your feelings about yourself is a good sign that you won’t rush into anything in an unconsidered way.

    Jadehawk – so sorry. :( Wish I could do something.

  102. 602
    opposablethumbs

    So glad to read that you seem to be happily enamoured, Katherine! :-)

    I suppose that as with any new relationship one sort of gradually opens up more about oneself with the new person in your life? You could always sort of play it by ear as regards the pace of telling her stuff about yourself – I mean, I’m sure that if she’s an awesome person like you are, you’ll probably both be aiming for the same goal of being able to be very open about things as the relationship progresses, without necessarily wanting to overload with information all at once in one big account right at the beginning. It sort of puts me in mind of you and your writing, in a way, how one gradually gets to know a character – obviously this is real people and quite different from fictional characters, I don’t mean to suggest that there’s any artifice involved here, but the developing-getting-to-know-more dynamic just sort of rings a bell. If that makes any sense whatsover …?

    Is she interested in your fiction writing? (I know we are! :-)) – because that in itself seems like not a bad lead in to conversations about gender and identity and relationships in general … ???

    Please please just ignore if I’m way off with what I say – I’m just a distant internet stranger havering on!

    Anyway, here’s to you and to being happily enamoured – wishing you all the best!

  103. 603
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    http://www.salon.com/2013/07/07/%e2%80%9cwhy_did_you_shoot_me_i_was_reading_a_book_the_new_warrior_cop_is_out_of_control/

    Long Salon article about law enforcement officials employing disproportionate force in ridiculous situations.
    THIS is where American civil liberties are being eroded. When conservative Religious Right leaders whine about losing rights, THIS is what should worry them. Not marriage equality.

  104. 604
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Jugs to Jadehawk.

  105. 605
    PZ Myers

    Hoo boy. Late night, long drive, con crud, now a pile of work awaits me at the lab. I might be a bit before I can get around to blog stuff.

    Also, Steve Pinker has a rebuttal to my dismissal of evolutionary psychology on Coyne’s blog. It’s awful. It’s a defense of evolutionary biology in general, which you’d have to be really weird to think I have an argument with, and it pretends the bad science in most evolutionary psychology studies just doesn’t exist. I’m going to have to get to that sometime today…but first, tea and lab work.

  106. 606
    Lynna, OM

    If abortion providers in Texas would like for their clinics to stay open, they should just start calling themselves fertilizer plants. This point was made by Tim Murphy, writing for Mother Jones.

    Fertilizer plants in Texas can blow up and level part of a town, but legislators will not allow more regulation — that would be “intrusive.” Abortion clinics, however, will be regulated out of existence. It’s a classic case of Republicans imposing Big Government on women and opposing Big Government for corporations with Big Money backing them.

    The Mother Jones article makes a scarily detailed case for how easy it would have been to prevent the fertilizer plant disaster.

  107. 607
    Lynna, OM

    Excerpt from the Mother Jones article mentioned in #606:

    The company did not work with the Department of Homeland Security to develop security procedures as required by federal law, nor did DHS ever instruct it to do so. It did provide information on the site’s explosive contents to the Texas Department of Health Services, but that agency did not pass that information along to DHS, nor was it required to.

    West Fertilizer Co. had no security guards, alarm system, or perimeter fencing despite the fact that it was a storage facility for the primary ingredient of improvised explosive devices, and had been robbed 11 times (presumably by meth manufacturers) in 12 years.

  108. 608
    Lynna, OM

    More bad news comes our way from anti-abortion activists.

    Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker signed into law on Friday new abortion restrictions that opponents said could lead to the closing of two of the state’s four abortion clinics. [...]

    The law requires women to undergo an ultrasound before they get an abortion and doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles of their clinics.

    Walker approved the legislation over the holiday weekend, with no public signing, no press.

    Planned Parenthood Federation of America and the ACLU filed suit in federal court. The Wisconsin bill takes effect today. NBC News link.

  109. 609
    Lynna, OM

    Money, money, money — thus us the category in which Republican tactics most resemble madness. Writing for The Maddow Blog, Steve Benen notes:

    Following up on an item from two months ago, Congressional Republicans have no reason to use the debt ceiling to hold the nation hostage again. None. The deficit is already shrinking with remarkable speed; the last GOP debt-ceiling crisis did real harm to the nation; GOP leaders have ruled out default; and Republican lawmakers themselves don’t even have anything specific in mind in terms of demands. There’s just no need to put Americans through this again….

    So, there’s no reason for GOP leaders to hold we-the-people hostage in a debt-ceiling crisis. What will Republicans do, I wonder? They will hold us hostage anyway, of course. There is a reason: anything to make President Obama look bad and to prevent Obama from making headway on the economic recovery.

    As the National Journal reports:

    With an anxious eye toward the coming debt-ceiling negotiations, House Republicans are drafting what members call a “menu” of mandatory spending cuts to offer the White House in exchange for raising the country’s borrowing limit.

    This menu is more a matrix of politically fraught options for the Obama administration to consider: Go small on cuts and get a short extension of the debt ceiling. Go big — by agreeing to privatize Social Security, for example — and get a deal that will raise the ceiling for the rest of Obama’s term.

    Congress, specifically the majority Republicans in Congress, have all already approved the spending the the budget. That’s their job. They hold the purse strings. But they are not taking responsibility for covering debts they incurred. No, they’d rather threaten default in order to force Democrats into the following:
    - privatize Social Security
    - cutting food stamps (yes, even more than they have already)
    - Medicaid cuts

    I left out the details of what the hostage-taking note from Republicans specifies for short-term extension of the debt ceiling, and what it specifies for an extension that would last until Obama leaves office.

    National Journal link.

  110. 610
    Lynna, OM

    Oh coffee deficit! I typed “thus us the category” in comment 609, when I meant to type “this is the category”

    Fuck.

  111. 611
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    There, I kinda took both names as one nym. I’ll keep up my old avatar a while so people don’t get confused.

  112. 612
    Lynna, OM

    “Perfect is a social construct. Hot weather isn’t.”

    People decided that an online company should not get away with body-shaming. Scroll down to see a nice illustration to go with “Perfect is a social construct. Hot weather isn’t.”

    http://www.salon.com/2013/07/08/company_sends_bizarre_fat_shaming_tweet_twitter_responds/

  113. 613
    Portia

    We like you no matter what, KevinKat. I have no advice for your situation, either, but lots of hugs and support as desired. I’m so happy for you that you like this woman so much!

  114. 614
    chigau (違う)

    KevinKat
    I think it works.

  115. 615
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    *waves at KevinKat*

  116. 616
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    Howdy KevinKat! We’re glad to know you in all your complexity!

  117. 617
    Louis

    [Delurk]

    Is it too early to get drunk?

    I can categorically proclaim that it is never too early to get drunk. It is, however, often too late.

    Louis

    [Relurk]

  118. 618
    cicely

    FML

    :(
    You okay? Glad you’re okay. Sad for the $$$$$$$.
    *hugs* or other acceptable gestures of support.
    -
    *hugs* and support for KevinKat, regardless of where your identity happens to be at any given time.
    :)
    -

  119. 619
    Portia

    Damnit if SCOTUS would have just extended marriage rights to everybody, my job would be much easier right now. But nooooooo, all these states have to have different laws. Maybe I’ll just right up an article about it. Harumph. New frontiers, wooo.

  120. 620
    ChasCPeterson

    Steve Pinker has a rebuttal to my dismissal of evolutionary psychology on Coyne’s blog. It’s awful. It’s a defense of evolutionary biology in general, which you’d have to be really weird to think I have an argument with,

    ? I certainly didn’t read it that way. Since he responds directly to words that you posted, there’s nothing weird about it. You claimed that the guiding principles of the whole field are invalid. Since the guiding principles are simply evolutionary biology, or ought to be, this has the appearance of denying that the concepts and techniques of evolutionary biology can be applied to human behavior at all. That’s what’s weird.

    and it pretends the bad science in most evolutionary psychology studies just doesn’t exist

    I’m sure you’ll be justifying this claim about “most EP studies” with several examples of bad science.

    .I’m going to have to get to that sometime today

    Very much looking forward to it.

  121. 621
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Best of luck Kevinkat
    V. depressed today, probably not going to be around much.

  122. 622
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    V. depressed today, probably not going to be around much.

    *hugs*

  123. 623
    Portia

    *hugs* Dalillama, and an ear if you need it.

  124. 624
    cicely

    *hugs* for Dalillama.
    -

  125. 625
    Lynna, OM

    Opponents of the Affordable Care Act have spent about $400 million so far on misleading TV ads. Compare this to the $75 spent so far in support of the law. The public is being subjected to a misinformation campaign.

    That ton of misinformation is about to get heavier. The Koch brothers (by way of Americans for Prosperity) is set to spend another $1 million. Here’s a YouTube link to the latest Koch brothers ad.

    The ad claims that the ACA will prevent the young mother from choosing her own doctor. Not true. Some private insurers do restrict choices of doctor, but the ACA does not.

    The young mother assumes her insurance premiums will be higher. That’s unlikely. Most Americans will not see higher premiums. As for the young mother’s follow up question of what she will get in return for her premiums, well that is a good question, one the Ad fails to answer.

    So, what do consumers get in return? For one thing, insurance companies will have to accept their enrollment no matter what. An applicant with a preexisting condition, for example, gets to sign up for a plan that they might not currently qualify for. Older Americans get limits on how much insurers can charge them; women will no longer get charged a higher premium than men. There are certain benefits, too, that health insurance plans are required to cover.

    Washington Post link.

    The Koch ends with the young mother playing the “you can’t trust Washington” card, but in the case of the ACA, federal officials do not limit/control her healthcare.

  126. 626
  127. 627
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Hekuni Cat:
    *hugs* right back atcha. ;)

    Giliell!
    I thought I had your email address, but I don’t. Can you email me, please?

  128. 628
    rq

    *hugs* for Dalillama (dammit I wish you could catch a real break) and for KevinKat (I like the new ‘nym).

    I had something smart and witty to say to the world, but alas, it is lost for all time in the remains of putting three children to sleep.

  129. 629
    David Marjanović

    *restocks the hug truck*
    *sprinkles chocolate over it*
    *moar chocolate*

    The mutant beavers are coming!

    They’re rodents of unusual size !!

    Is she interested in your fiction writing? (I know we are! :-)) – because that in itself seems like not a bad lead in to conversations about gender and identity and relationships in general … ???

    Seconded!

    “Perfect is a social construct. Hot weather isn’t.”

    I love that.

    (Indeed, if the norms of the 1950s had endured and I’d be forced to wear long pants in this weather, I’d have had several heatstrokes already, I’m sure.)

    Antarctic Lake Vostok ‘might have fish’

    Oh, wow. That’d be fucking awesome.

    (Can’t resist complaining about archaea being called “very primitive”, though. They’re simply the other branch of the tree of life, with their own evolutionary history.)

  130. 630
  131. 631
    cicely

    They’re rodents of unusual size !!
    :) :) :)
    Ah, the Classics!
    -

  132. 632
    kouras

    Kevinkat
    Jadehawk
    Dalillama

    *hugs*

  133. 633
    Lynna, OM

    Remember when Donald Trump trumpeted a “big surprise” that “everyone will love” for the Republican National Convention (that convention in which Clint Eastwood berated a chair)? Well, now we can see the video Trump produced, and we can see why Mitt Romney, (even Mitt Romney!), rejected this inaccurate piece of propaganda.

    The only person still lacking a clear view is Trump himself, who claims that, “The reason they didn’t put it on is because they thought it was too controversial. Controversy. It might not be politically correct.”

    Scroll down to see the video here: http://www.salon.com/2013/07/08/donald_trump_finally_releases_unaired_rnc_obama_parody/
    There is one preceding ad, but I didn’t want to link to the Breitbart site.

  134. 634
    blf

    I was going to comment:

    Ok, whilst I’m not entirely sober right now — having had two Liefmans‘s, a kir, a bottle of vin, and a digestif before / with / after dinner (and let’s not mention lunch, Ok?) — I am seeing multiply-replicated comments in this thread. WTF ?

    However, upon re-checking, there are no duplicated comments. I suspect I was alternating between the Page Up and Page Down keys without realising it…  ;-\

    *hick!*

  135. 635
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Well, blf, some of my comments keep showing up twice, so it may not be your confusion.

    Well, it still might be, but not about that.

    Wife, Boy and I just polished off a rack of St. Louis cut spare ribs — grilled at low temperature for about two hours, high temperature for about 1/2 hour. Made some rooster’s beak (pico de gallo (jalapeno peppers, fresh tomatoes, onion, cilantro, olive oil, lime juice, pink salt)) and consumed it with some blue corn tortilla chips.

    After taking the ribs and foil off, I heard a soft ‘whoomp’ sound. So I opened the lid. And I still have one eyebrow. It’s out, now. No worries, mate.

    Sorry, blf — no cheese for the MDP.

    (why is the MDP capitalized, but blf isn’t?)

  136. 636
    opposablethumbs

    Fuck, Dalillama, I’m sorry. I wish you didn’t have so much to carry – and/or that I had the wherewithal to send you a whole canteen of spoons. {{{another hug}}}

  137. 637
    blf

    BLF.
    BLF.

  138. 638
    Lynna, OM

    Ogvorbis needs a fire fighting crew on standby when he grills food.

  139. 639
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Lynna:

    So I should park a Portia next to my grill?

  140. 640
    Portia

    So I should park a Portia next to my grill?

    Teeheeheeheeheehee.

  141. 641
    blf

    Soft ‘whoomp’s are for wimps.
    Firefighting crews on standby are for überwimps.

    When the mildly deranged penguin grills food, the French Foreign Legion resigns, the Green Berets hide in nuclear-proof bunkers, and the cockroaches hitch a ride on the fleeing Reptilian starships. Even the horses vacate the continent. Hoever, the peas, the horrible peas, …

  142. 642
    blf

    And w‘s going missing…

  143. 643
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    blf:

    I do have fresh sugar snap peas in my garden. And they are delicious — raw or stir fired.

    I do have one question for the horde: why are different chili peppers of the same kind, in the same bin at the grocers, of such wildly different heat levels? The first jalapeno I put in the pico had a very grassy flavour but almost no heat. The second one (yes, I taste each one) was very spicy. Why is there still so much variability (even from large commercial farms)?

  144. 644
    Tethys

    The only person still lacking a clear view is Trump himself,

    Well, what do you expect from someone who is unaware of the dead animal glued on top of his head?

    pink salt

    ??

  145. 645
    blf

    blf has just been waylaid by a marauding band of w‘s and won’t disturb this thread again until he escapeswakes up…

  146. 646
    Tethys

    Why is there still so much variability?

    Heat varies because of genetics and growing conditions.

    We picked our first serranos this week, but they wern’t very hot because it has been a cool and wet spring.
    I expect that will change now that summer temperatures have arrived.

  147. 647
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.
    pink salt

    ??

    Pink Himalayan rock salt, freshly ground. I was able to pick some up cheap at a local store. Odd flavour. Good.

    Heat varies because of genetics and growing conditions.

    Oh, I know that, but these are from the same farm, same crop, same soil, same everything. Just struck me as strange that the placenta would have that much variation.

  148. 648
    Portia

    I feel like laying in bed, watching Netflix, and sulking. No real reason. Blah

  149. 649
    carlie

    Patheos had better be paying Ed a finder’s fee for all the bloggers they’re swiping, is all I can say.

    I feel like laying in bed, watching Netflix, and sulking. No real reason. Blah

    It just got Twin Peaks! I’ve never actually seen it, and don’t even know the plot (aside from it being about the dead Laura), so I’ve watched a few today already. I know how you feel about just wanting a gripey time, though. No need to have a reason for that, go ahead. :)

    On salt – I knew I had a problem when I got mad that I couldn’t find the salt. I found the iodized table salt, the kosher salt, and the garlic salt, but none of those was the salt I was looking for.

  150. 650
    Portia

    Thanks, carlie, I’ll have to check that out :) The closest I’ve gotten to it is the Psych tribute episode.

    There is now a reason for my gripey feeling though. Suffice to say it includes the fire chief saying to me, verbatim, “No offense, but we needed manpower.” …and when he got back from the call he excluded me from, I knew more about the problem they addressed than they did. I sniped about not even breaking my arms last time I dealt with it. By myself. Successfully. Rarg.

    And then my mom texted me a pictures of the flowers I painted on her toes two weeks ago to show me they were still going strong. (She included Ode to Joy as a soundtrack to the message, somehow, and it gave me a very needed laugh). Made up for me ruining my fresh manicure to get down to the fire station to be fucking insulted. And I am afraid I’m out of nail polish remover. Harumph.

    /vent (clearly I didn’t stick with the “suffice to say” part)

  151. 651
    chigau (違う)

    I have too many pens.
    Every store, hotel, event I go to gives me I pen.
    Pens are everywhere.
    Except by the landline telephone (what can I say, I’m old-fashioned), no pens there.
    Not that it matters, there is no paper there, either.

    carlie
    I watched Twin Peaks when it was on the TV.
    As I recall, it was pretty much a mind-fuck.
    (not as bad as trying to make < > or ( ) on an iPad)

  152. 652
    mildlymagnificent

    DROP DEAD FRED IS STREAMING THROUGH NETFLIX!

    One of my super duper top films evah!

    (We had it on tape 20+ years ago for the kids. Loved it even when it was barely watchable from too much kidly use.)

  153. 653
    Tethys

    DROP DEAD FRED

    I am watching it on youtube right now for the first time. I got a few minutes in before I started recognizing the settings of various scenes. Shock, gasp, it was filmed here in Minnesota!
    The steamboat is anchored about 5 miles from where I am sitting.

    ——

    Ogvorbis

    The peppers are probably open pollinated, rather than a named F1 hybrid that has been selected for uniformity.

    I have had black salt, and rust red salt from Hawaii. They both had very distinct, different flavors in addition to salt. The black had an almost smokey taste, and the rust one tasted very mineral.

  154. 654
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    carlie:
    I know, right.
    What is so enticing about Patheos?
    More money?
    More exposure to readers?
    More tolerance of religion?
    Less affiliation with a blog network caught in the middle of the atheism/feminism/skepticism war?

  155. 655
    Menyambal

    Portia, your mom sounds neat. I was just playing _Ode to Joy_ on my ukulele. Sorry to hear your boss is jerkish.

  156. 656
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I am getting worried Zimmerman will get off.
    Worse still, what happens if that occurs? Rodney King style rioting?
    Fucking Zimmerman instigated the whole thing. I dont care if he was afraid the concrete was a weapon, he should not have been profiling Trayvon.

  157. 657
    chigau (違う)

    Tony! #656
    Really? Is that a possibility?

  158. 658
    chigau (違う)

    nevermind
    of course it’s possible

  159. 659
    rq

    Update on the Quebec rail disaster, with echoes of Flight 111.

    He was a very nice man.” I’m sure he was.

    Cute: snail overcomes large obstacle.

    *hugs* for those who want/need them.

  160. 660
    Menyambal

    Woohoo! The gym membership seems to be working. When I started, there was one popular Nautilus machine that I could not use, even on its lowest setting. Today I jumped it up yet another notch, to over five times what I started at. It’s still kind of wussy, but it’s a big improvement for me.

    It’s one of those employee-benefit memberships, where it’s free if I use it often, so that’s an incentive, to not have to pay for it. I’ve odd areas of strength and weakness, it turns out, with most of my muscles away from the usual show-off places—I suppose I should try for balance.

  161. 661
    chigau (違う)

    rq
    You didn’t mention the poll!!!1!
    “Are you the frog or are you the snail?”
    c’mon Horde, this is, like, serious, like.

  162. 662
    chigau (違う)

    Just because
    most peculiar man

  163. 663
    chigau (違う)

    Even better
    Emily

  164. 664
    Tethys

    I listened to Emily before you posted it chigau.

    “I wandered empty streets down past the shop displays, I heard cathedral bells dripping down the alley ways’

    I love that song. There has never been anyone quite like the pairing of Simon and Garfunkle.
    So much emotion packed into so few lyrics and an acoustic guitar.

  165. 665
    rq

    I’m a big fan of Richard Cory, myself, but nothing beats their Sound of Silence.

    Also, chigau, I did not know there was a poll. Now that I do… *pharyngulate* :D

  166. 666
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Chigau:
    Zimmerman is charged with second degree murder, which in Florida, requires ill-will, hatred, and spite. If I am not mistaken, the prosecution has to convince the jury that was how he acted. He has waived the Stand Your Ground defense, which I found odd. Perhaps Portia can shed some light on this.
    Given the nature of racism in this country, as well as the stereotypical depiction of black youth (which goes hand in hand) I worry that the jury will fail to be convinced.

    ****
    More _Talks With Tony_–
    Same guy, J (who appeared to comprehend privilege) and I chatted about the pros and cons of affirmative action. He made the comment that when whites (given that ‘African American’ is preferred to ‘black’, what term is used in place of ‘whites’?…anyone know?) become the minority in the US, he will be eligible for affirmative action to which I delved into the oppression of African Americans, and the laudable (if not unattainable) goal of affirmative action programs. I addressed the perception of unfairness in such programs (without dismissing the concerns). Again, he was very open and receptive, as well as attentive.

    Unrelated to that, I spoke up in another conversation about astrological signs. Nothing terribly in depth, other than pointing out the absurdity that our lives are directly influenced and shaped by stars created before humans existed.

    Yet another conversation sprung out of a female server getting a speeding ticket on her way to work. A few people had the opinion that women speed more than men, to which I added that gender likely plays no role in speeding and introducing it was unnecessary. I said that men and women alike speed. One woman tried to make a blanket generalization about ‘all women being worse drivers than men’, to which I finally got her to concede that she could only speak of her experiences, rather than treat them as universal. I pointed out that in my experiences men and women alike can be good or bad drivers.

    I noticed that when I impart information that I dominate the discussion more than when I offer counterpoints or try to point out flaws in teasoning.

  167. 667
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Menyambal-
    Glad you are seeing some payoff for your exercise!

  168. 668
    rq

    Tony
    Actually, due to cultural factors, I’m pretty convinced that men (here in Latvia) speed far more than women. As attested by the fact that far more men have been issued speeding tickets.

    Also, far more men complain about traffic cops/speed radars than women (publicly, in media, among friends).
    Setting up speed cameras and speed traps illicits all kinds of blustering about My Rights!! and It’s those women drivers who give us all a bad name, while comfortably ignoring the safety aspects of not-speeding – and when young mothers who happen to smoke are targetted by the media (Take photos of smoking parents* and send them in for publication!), these same Rights!! commenters partake with glee.

    *Parents appearing to smoke publicly in front of their children currently happen to be a vast majority of women (mothers).

  169. 669
    rq

    This is what Toronto looks like with lots n lots of rain!! Wow.
    I hope my grandma’s ok!!!

  170. 670
    opposablethumbs

    I want to make Tony’s bar my local … aw, not fair! ::sulks::

  171. 671
    birgerjohansson

    Re. lake Vostok.
    I recall an article in Science a couple of weeks ago, a lake in easternmost Siberia provides a perfect contiuous layer of sediments from just before the beginning of the cooling ca. 3 million years ago (Mya) to the current date, giving us proxies for temperature, precipitation and vegetation. When this is added to proxies for CO2 you get a good account of climate in the past high-CO2 Arctic.

    BTW the lake is a meteor crater created by a bolide 3.8 Mya , 12 km in diameter with a surface area of ca 100km/2 and a catchment area of ca. 300 km/2

    A kid in my neighbour’s family is going to Malta for a “language journey” (presumably for Engish, even though the official language of this Catholic nation is a variant of Arabic).
    I will try to find stuff for him about the neolithic temple on Malta (at 3000 BC it pre-dates the pyramids and is the first known monumental temple, unless you count poorly dated megaliths in Ireland).

  172. 672
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    HI there
    Assorted hugs all around

    Katherine
    I can’t give you any sensible advice, just hugs

    Tony

    Yet another conversation sprung out of a female server getting a speeding ticket on her way to work. A few people had the opinion that women speed more than men, to which I added that gender likely plays no role in speeding and introducing it was unnecessary. I said that men and women alike speed

    Actually there is a difference and it’s often due to toxic masculinity.
    For Germany, the data clearly shows that while only 22% of women (with a drivers license) are registered for traffic offenses, 77% of men are (Speeding being the top offense for both men and women). Now, that’s only half the truth because men do still drive more km, but not that much more.
    In Germany, men, especially young men also cause way more heavy accidents. 80% of those killed in accidents they caused themselves are men. While women seem to have more “shit I drove backwards into a parking car”* accidents, they cause way less death and harm.
    If MRAs were really trying to help men they’d fight those ideas about strong macho men who don’t need no fucking speed limits. Instead young guys driving home drunk and ending in the morgue is somehow feminist misandry…

    *Mr. doesn’t believe it. His pet theory is that guys are just more likely to leave the scene.

  173. 673
    Nick Gotts

    Since the guiding principles (of evolutionary psychology) are simply evolutionary biology, or ought to be – ChasCPeterson

    What utter crap. Historically, they never have been. According to wikipedia, citing Cosmides and Tooby:

    Evolutionary psychology is founded on several core premises.

    The brain is an information processing device, and it produces behavior in response to external and internal inputs.
    The brain’s adaptive mechanisms were shaped by natural and sexual selection.
    Different neural mechanisms are specialized for solving problems in humanity’s evolutionary past.
    The brain has evolved specialized neural mechanisms that were designed for solving problems that recurred over deep evolutionary time, giving modern humans stone-age minds.
    Most contents and processes of the brain are unconscious; and most mental problems that seem easy to solve are actually extremely difficult problems that are solved unconsciously by complicated neural mechanisms.
    Human psychology consists of many specialized mechanisms, each sensitive to different classes of information or inputs. These mechanisms combine to produce manifest behavior.

    These premises go well beyond general principles of evolutionary biology and some (e.g. that modern humans have stone age minds) are known to be false.

  174. 674
    Portia

    Menyambal,

    Thanks, I do like my mom a lot :)

    Good for you increasing your abilities! I’m better than I was at running but still pitifully slow, and I tell myself it’s better than nothing!

    Tony:

    I’d have too look into it a little further. I didn’t realize his team had elected not to raise the SYG defense. I read the 2nd degree murder provision in the FL code and didn’t see it requiring ill-will, hatred, etc. I think you just have to show he meant to kill, but not premeditation.

    what term is used in place of ‘whites’?…anyone know?

    From my knowledge, white is fine. “Black” can be fine too, depending on context, and more important than anything, the preference of the people it is being used to describe. At any rate, ‘Caucasian’ has racist origins and little contemporary accuracy.

  175. 675
    rq

    Giliell
    There may be some truth to what your Mr believes, since that’s exactly the same kind of attitude that prevails around here. That little scrape isn’t worth the time to wait around for the paperwork/insurance. People tend to look at accidents in total, and see that women cause most of them, but accident deaths are caused primarily by men, but women are still worse drivers. Or something.

    That toxic masculinity gets into everything, though – they release accident updates every now and then (from police and medical emergency calls and the like, all kinds of accidents). Since the beginning of June, 10 people have suffered serious injuries (ranging from sprained neck to broken vertebrae to death) from jumping into untested/too shallow waters under the influence of alcohol. All of them are men. Husband works with one of them – he got lucky, he gets to spend two months lying on his back immobile, and then another two months with all kinds of therapies and a neck brace. Three months ago he was super-excited about the birth of his first child. Supposedly, he’s a smart guy, until he drinks and feels a need to prove himself. Yup, the real-life consequences of toxic masculinity are huge.

  176. 676
    rq

    Portia
    Isn’t first-degree murder the one with any kind of premeditation? Granted, I took this and that of Canadian law, but the big difference between first- and second-degree murder was premeditation/planning/previous intent.
    I don’t know how that works in US law, though. Once things get into voluntary/involuntary manslaughter, I get confused. :)

    +++

    Also, I did not realize that socionics were so complicated. Is that even a legitimate field of study? (And by legitimate, I mean subject to the rigors of the scientific method, rather than random theorizing based on the prejudices of the researchers.)

  177. 677
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    I has a sad. My girlfriend is getting out of her apartment situation with an ex, and she’s trying to do it faster than her original plan so she’s not gonna be able to visit Thursday likely :(

  178. 678
    opposablethumbs

    :-((( @ KevinKat. I’m sorry to hear that.

  179. 679
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Isn’t first-degree murder the one with any kind of premeditation?

    In many states, it is also the one with the death penalty. Prosecuting as second degree removes that consideration, and all the emotions involved in such a decision, out of the picture.

  180. 680
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD.

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