“Frack” should be the new obscenity »« Today is the National Day of Reason

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  1. WharGarbl says

    @mouthb
    #2
    You forgot being a baby factory.
    So that’s at least three things ladies are doing.

  2. =8)-DX says

    Well, in a country of mainly godless heathens, I think you can substitute “religion” with “society”, “sacrifices” is pretty apt, although things are getting better.

  3. =8)-DX says

    .. if by “sacrifices” one means “an entire life dedicated to bearing, raising, feeding, clothing, emotionally supporting children while working a full time job and tending to the husband’s particular needs when he decides to actually come home and put his feet up.”

  4. samgardner says

    I listen to some religious radio station on my commute, pretty much for the same reason people watch train wrecks. One is a call-in show. Every time the “female role in church” question comes up, they’re always quick to point out that women can teach children or other women. I think to an extent they’re aware that it’s not defensible in real moral terms other than “the Bible tells us to do it that way.”

  5. samgardner says

    As for other atheists?

    *shrugs* Some people have no desire to look at themselves more carefully.

  6. says

    @7

    too bad that it’s a “known known” that various orders of nuns and sisters had and have their own history of not being trustworthy with child care, education etc. While atheism doesn’t contribute to curing sociopathic tendencies, there’s nothing like an infection with religious righteousness to tickle out or even create terrible character flaws and and bring them to full bloom. Giving a child to the nuns is like having the choice between a hungry lion and a peckish wolf to guard your sheep.

  7. left0ver1under says

    Felix (#7) -

    I wasn’t defending the penguins and their history of abuses (e.g. the Magdelene Laundries, the kidnapping of children in Spain and Latin America, etc.). I was referring to the male attitude toward females.

  8. Ogvorbis, broken failure. says

    You forgot being a baby factory.
    So that’s at least three things ladies are doing.

    Well, to be fair, making women carry any pregnancy to full term under any and all circumstances does, frequently, require that the woman die, so that would still be a blood sacrifice.

  9. shabadu15 says

    I take it that the main goal of atheism+ regarding feminism is to make our community more welcoming of women and to treat our female fellow atheists with respect. But do we have to constantly grovel and apologize for whatever privileges we may possess due to our gender? If we act to prevent the continuation of privileging men over women do we have to feel guilt for a system we were born into and took no active role in perpetuating because Dr. Myers seems to do that a lot on this site? It’s his site and he has the right to post whatever he wants but isn’t this imposition of guilt onto every man, even those who work to achieve feminist objectives like Myers himself, just as irrational as the notion of original sin?

  10. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    But do we have to constantly grovel and apologize for whatever privileges we may possess due to our gender?

    Where did you get that inane idea? All you have to do is to be aware of those privileges, and make sure you don’t use them. Not really hard to do, and no apologies are necessary unless you use those privileges when they aren’t needed.

  11. Ogvorbis, broken failure. says

    But do we have to constantly grovel and apologize for whatever privileges we may possess due to our gender?

    I am white. I am middle aged. I am male. I am straight and cis-gendered. I am college educated. I am a professional. I am tall. All of these are, in some way or another, privileges.

    Since I am white and middle aged, I am less likely to be pulled over for a traffic violation and, even if I am, I am less likely to be ticketed. I am also far more likely to have my opinions taken into consideration within any group environment.

    Since I am male, straight, and cis-gendered, I am far less likely to be raped, assaulted, or harassed. I am also far more likely to be listened to if I file any complaint.

    Since I am college educated and a work in a job in which I am considered a professional, I am far more likely to be listened to in a professional, political, or legal situation.

    Since I am tall, I am less likely to have my opinions dismissed and am less likely to be assaulted.

    I have never apologized for any of these privileges. I have become more aware of these privileges and how they affect my interactions with others, but I am still privileged. Even the privileges I ‘earned’ (college education and job) came my way, at least partly, through things I had nothing to do with. I don’t apologize for my privilege. I try to be aware of my privilege and reduce their impact through inclusive actions at work, in social situations, and in politics.

  12. says

    But do we have to constantly grovel and apologize for whatever privileges we may possess due to our gender?

    But yes, of course!
    Didn’t you get that memo?
    We demand that all men say at least 10 mea culpa every morning and flog themselves.
    5 hits is the basic amount we ask for for being male.
    plus 5 for each of the additional offenses of being white, cis and straight.
    Double that if you’re also middle-class.

  13. Ogvorbis, broken failure. says

    5 hits is the basic amount we ask for for being male.
    plus 5 for each of the additional offenses of being white, cis and straight.
    Double that if you’re also middle-class.

    OUCH!!!1!1!11!!!!

  14. mikeyb says

    C’mon we all know it’s about talking snakes telling gullible women made from the rib of man not to eat fruit from magical trees which brought death into the world and all our woe. In other words, it’s all women’s fault. If you don’t like that, a backup is Pandora’s box.

  15. samgardner says

    @14 NERD

    All you have to do is to be aware of those privileges, and make sure you don’t use them

    Ummm, how are we supposed to make sure we don’t use the privileges of being male? Most are really passive, aren’t they? I’m not afraid to be in an elevator with another person, I don’t have any issue walking down a dark street at night, if I speak up during a meeting I can’t really preface it with “don’t pay attention, I’m just a man” ( I already try not to interrupt unless necessary). I suppose I could be more careful of my drink in bars, but it would be hard to put a lot of heart into protecting myself from a basically nonexistent danger.

  16. says

    I take it that the main goal of atheism+ regarding feminism is to make our community more welcoming of women and to treat our female fellow atheists with respect.

    Let’s all take a moment to savor and enjoy the single sentence that made any sense in that paragraph from Shabadu15.

    But do we have to constantly grovel and apologize for whatever privileges we may possess due to our gender?

    Have you been reading Al Stefanelli, dear? It seems a common misconception that asking for people to become aware of their privilege means that they must also apologize for having it. Grovel and apologize if you want to; it’s not going to end sexism. Which is why pretty much nobody cares about your apologies–we care about what positive actions you take to combat bigotry.

    If we act to prevent the continuation of privileging men over women do we have to feel guilt for a system we were born into and took no active role in perpetuating

    Are you SURE you have NEVER taken even just one action to perpetuate sexism? You’ve never, say, laughed at a joke about women drivers? You’ve never speculated about whether a rape victim was drinking? In addition to never doing any of those things, you’ve spoken up to express your disapproval every single time you’ve been in earshot of someone doing those things? I think you greatly overestimate what is required to perpetuate systemic bigotry.

    because Dr. Myers seems to do that a lot on this site?

    I would really, really love for you to provide just ONE (1) instance of what you see as Dr. Myers calling for men to feel guilt about their male privilege, or any other analogous privilege-related discussion, whether it’s white privilege or cis privilege or straight privilege or whatever. Just one.

    It’s his site and he has the right to post whatever he wants but isn’t this imposition of guilt onto every man, even those who work to achieve feminist objectives like Myers himself, just as irrational as the notion of original sin?

    That certainly would be quite irrational! How telling, then, that you appear to have invented this particular irrationality out of thin air! It’s almost as if you are not all that interested in ending systemic misogyny and are casting around, a bit desperately, for reasons to dismiss the people who are truly passionate about it.

    Note: emphasis added.

  17. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Most are really passive, aren’t they?

    No, they are you being passive for the status quo. Some are simple. Don’t interrupt women if they are talking, or be the one to deal out coffee for a meeting, or be the one to take notes rather than presuming the women will, that sort of thing. I don’t know why some menfolks find it so hard.

  18. Ogvorbis, broken failure. says

    I’m not afraid to be in an elevator with another person,

    If you are about to get on an elevator, late at night, and the only person already there is a woman, do you jump right in, or do you wait for the next car?

    I don’t have any issue walking down a dark street at night,

    If you are walking down a sidewalk at night and you see a woman walking towards you, do you continue to approach her (Schrödinger’s Rapist), or do you cross to the other side of the street?

    if I speak up during a meeting I can’t really preface it with “don’t pay attention, I’m just a man” ( I already try not to interrupt unless necessary).

    Do you actively encourage the participation of all members of your meeting? Encouraging those who are quiet? Stopping others when they speak over another participant?

    I suppose I could be more careful of my drink in bars, but it would be hard to put a lot of heart into protecting myself from a basically nonexistent danger.

    This is privilege. Just as I wrote up at #15. And you see nothing you could do to help this situation? Instead, all you see is that you should apologize for being privileged? Damn.

  19. says

    While we’re replacing things with other things, can we replace the weird mishmash of racial stereotypes, too? If we need to mark someone as a savage with no respect for female life, a cardinal’s hat will do.

  20. says

    While we’re replacing things with other things, can we replace the weird mishmash of racial stereotypes, too?

    Sure, sure. And while we’re taking orders, I’d like a yacht big enough to live on. Pony, anybody?

  21. says

    Pony, anybody?

    I take the one with the fluffy white wings and the shiny horn…

    Haley Moore
    That’s not against your comment, of course. You’re absolutely right. actually confirms my conviction that those people don’t actually care for women qua women, but just for being better than the religious. Because they give shit about any splash-damage caused.

  22. Lyn M: ADM MinTruthiness says

    @Sam Gardener

    Ummm, how are we supposed to make sure we don’t use the privileges of being male? Most are really passive, aren’t they? I’m not afraid to be in an elevator with another person, I don’t have any issue walking down a dark street at night, if I speak up during a meeting I can’t really preface it with “don’t pay attention, I’m just a man” ( I already try not to interrupt unless necessary). I suppose I could be more careful of my drink in bars, but it would be hard to put a lot of heart into protecting myself from a basically nonexistent danger.

    What you talk about in the quote is not how you could see to it that women around you are safer/not harrassed/do better despite your privilidge. This is about you imagining some pointless behavior you could carry out as if it would cancel your privilidge. You imply that means, somehow, that anyone trying to level the playing field cannot do so because you imagine leveling the playing field involves doing the silly things you describe.
    Kind of like it’s all about you, somehow.
    Meanwhile, the negatives created by privilidge continue and continue not to affect you. Which is, of course, a complete surprise.

  23. mikeyb says

    Too bad the mentality of average American male indistinguishable from Borat.

  24. samgardner says

    Hi Ogvorbis

    A lot of what I do depends on circumstance. The thing about being on streets and elevators late at night is that you don’t meet very many people period, and even fewer of them are women. I can say that when getting on an elevator when only a woman is present I stand on the other side of the elevator and ignore her, even in an office building in midday.

    If there are a lot of other people around then I don’t cross to the other side of the street. I figure its the combination of being night and of no one else being around that makes it unnerving.

    Doing all those things, however, does not remove my privilege nor does it mean I’m not using it. The way I see it, I use my privilege as soon as I walk out of my house at midnight without fear. When the elevator door opens and there’s one woman inside, the mere fact that I do have the choice whether to go inside is the privilege, regardless of which choice I make.

    Maybe you’re confusing me with someone else, but at no point did I apologize for having privilege. I can’t excise it from myself and did nothing to gain it. If I told you not to use your privilege of being a white middle-class male to avoid having the police stop you, how would you do that?
    And of course, I know the ability to leave my drink without worrying that someone is going to put something in it is privilege. That was my point.

    I take my own meeting notes, and the rest of what you mention is simply good practice in holding meetings. I don’t think I’ve ever been in a meeting where someone else has doled out coffee, except paid caterers.

  25. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    The way I see it, I use my privilege as soon as I walk out of my house at midnight without fear.

    That is only one form of privilege. Concentrate on those where you interact with women and use thoses privilege to show they are second class citizens to understand where Ogvorbis and myself are coming from. Which is why your claim above is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to with interactions with women.

  26. says

    Wait, I was going to say what Sam said. You can’t NOT have privilege. You can choose to wield it in favour of equality or against it, but you can’t simply choose not to have it. And since a lot of privilege is in how others treat you, you also can’t choose not to use it. It’s not under your control.

    For example, I am always and in perpetuity 100% safe from being refused taxi service while brown. What I can do is express my outrage when it happens to other people, and if possible use my privilege to help others. And make sure I’m not being used in person to deny someone else their rights, such as refuse to accept the taxi service when someone non-white is in line in front of me. But I can’t choose not to have that privilege. I think Chris misspoke, and Sam is being misinterpreted.

  27. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Sam is being misinterpreted.

    Whereas I think Sam is being deliberately obtuse.

  28. samgardner says

    I’m not trying to be obtuse,Nerd. Sure, I can concentrate on reducing the impact of my privilege. Living in the patriarchy, it suffuses us and I do my best to remain aware of it.

    Thank you for your help.

  29. says

    “All you have to do is to be aware of those privileges, and make sure you don’t use them”

    I see that *I *misspoke – for some weird reason (perhaps pertaining to lack of coffee and the relative location of pics in the margin?) I thought that Chris said that. Oops. Sorry Chris.

    Anyway, Sam nailed it. You can’t choose not to have privilege. The moment you have a choice that a woman doesn’t have, that’s a privilege. You can choose not to abuse it, and I’m pretty sure both of you do that. But short of getting a sex change, you’re not losing your male privilege any time soon.

    That, of course, is the reason why no-one outside of MRA fantasies is asking you to apologise for being male. If you *could* choose to have privilege over others, then you would be a douchebag just for having it. But we know that you didn’t and can’t.

  30. says

    There need to be more men like you PZ, if all men were like you the world would be so much a better place.

    Thanks for keeping up the good fight, you’re doing well =)

  31. says

    “But short of getting a sex change, you’re not losing your male privilege any time soon.”

    I dunno if I would use this phrase, I certainly don’t think it was a privilege for me to limp my wrist, insist I was a girl and should be over there with other girls, and I got beat for it, systematically, viciously, and ruthlessly, because it was super obvious to my dad I was trans. Transpeople like me don’t ‘lose’ male privilege when we get genital reconstruction surgery, because it’s not a privilege for us to get beat like that….
    http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local&id=7588056

    That’s a typical example of what happens when men take their anger all the way with transgirls. I don’t know what y ou call that, but privilege ain’t it. Transpeople don’t have privilege by virtue of being born in the wrong body with the wrong genitals, suffering severe and crippling sex dysphoria and being beaten, spit on, made fun of, isolated, and hit by our fathers, brothers, and friends at school growing up. That ain’t a privilege…

    That being said, I agree with everything else you’ve said about what Sam said.

  32. Masquirina says

    Agreed except… is there a consensus among feminists that at night males should cross the street and get into a separate elevator to avoid a female, or am I missing sarcasm in Ogvorbis’s post?

  33. Ogvorbis, broken failure. says

    Agreed except… is there a consensus among feminists that at night males should cross the street and get into a separate elevator to avoid a female, or am I missing sarcasm in Ogvorbis’s post?

    About two months ago, I went for a late night walk while smoking a cigar (too cold to just sit on the porch). It was 9:00pm and very dark. As I walked down my neighborhood street, I could see one other pedestrian — a young woman (I later realized she is a high school student who I know peripherally because she is in the band). I was pretty sure that she had seen me as she kept glancing in my direction and then looking left and right. She was already worried. Rather than continue to clomp my way directly towards her, I switched to the other side of the road (a moderately narrow one-way street with parking on both sides) and continued walking. When I switched sides, her stride became more relaxed and she looked far less nervous. This is called situation awareness. And I have waited for a different elevator when at a hotel in Great Falls, Montana, coming back from a fire, at 11:00pm, because the only other person on board was a woman and I did not want to cause her distress (I snapped my finger, said, “Damn!” and turned to walk back towards the parking lot so that she would not be wondering what was going on). Was I right to do these things? In my mind, in the first instance, no question. In the second, probably. Is this a blanket consensus? No. Not even for me — situation matters.