Good ideas and bad ideas »« Textbooks could always get worse

[Lounge #412]

friendlybear

This is the lounge. You can discuss anything you want, but you will do it kindly. Don’t be afraid of the bear.

Status: Heavily Moderated; Previous thread

Comments

  1. rq says

    DAMN YOU, PORTCULLIS, those were my fingers!

    *hugs* for Dalillama @previous thread, sorry that’s the best I can do right now.
    I wish there was a better way to help. (If there is, let me know – song? Dance? USB drink?)

    And the bear looks wasted.

  2. yazikus says

    For starters, had I known two years ago what I know now, I would have gladly worn a headdress to school.

    Yeah, nothing wrong with that part at all. I didn’t find the letter particularly “hilarious” either… Interesting timing though, considering the affirmative action/supreme court case.

  3. chigau (unless...) says

    No, janiceintoronto.
    Never run from a bear.
    Unless you are faster than your companions.

  4. kalil says

    PZ, I know you’ve been following the stories about misogyny in gaming (most notably, the insane response to Anita Sarkeesian). Rock Paper Shotgun, the prominent PC Gaming blog, had an excellent post today on why it matters, why the common counter-arguments/slurs are bad, and (relevant to the atheist community) why an blog focused on ‘unrelated’ issues should cover misogyny in the community:
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/04/06/misogyny-sexism-and-why-rps-isnt-shutting-up/

  5. cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming) says

    Never run from a bear.
    Unless you are faster than your companions.

    If you’re able to deploy Jack the cat you might get away (with it) …

  6. Pteryxx says

    (from the previous thread)

    Portia: I concur with Lynna – jerk sounds like a manipulator. From your next-to-last:

    Jerk: “Why are you still grumpy?” (minimizing your distrust for cause)

    Jerk: “I just want to know that after all we’ve been through, we’re still friends.” (unilaterally declaring friendship at you)

    You: “You said you wouldn’t talk to me again until I apologized, but apparently that doesn’t apply when you have an emergency. So what’s the emergency.” (Controlling whether conversation happens or not on his terms.)

    Only after the conversation he wanted to have does he text you to say what a great and forgiving person you are. Bleargh – if he felt any remorse he’d have led off with acknowledging you might not want to deal with him instead of chain-texting you.

    You *are* a good person (pretty forgiving, too) but he isn’t. Whether or not you decide to lawyer for him, I hope you keep him at arm’s length. At this point he deserves LESS trust than a total stranger would.

    Good luck and take care of yourself. *leaves portable anklehugs*

  7. carlie says

    That’s it – I couldn’t put my finger on what was really bothering me, but Pteryxx nailed it – he was trying several different opening gambits to see which one hit your buttons enough to unlock your willingness to deal with him. Not good.

  8. mildlymagnificent says

    Me? I’m a grumpy. Those opening gambits?

    I see them as the opening manoeuvres in a quest to get services free or at “mates rates” – because we’re friends.

  9. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    From The Onion:
    Roger Ebert Hails Human Existence As ‘A Triumph’

    *hugs* for Portia. I’m sorry to hear that Call-Him-J-For-Jerk is still bothering you. Maybe, if he insists on speaking to you, and just won’t quit, you can insist on having a third-party “audience”, and put the call on speaker?

    Portia: after the jerk behavior and being cavalier with your safety (IIRC)… now HE needs someone HE can trust? More likely he’s running out of people still willing to whiz on him when he’s on fire.

    Nicely said, Pteryxx; and right along the same lines I was thinking!

    What if he wasn’t in jail, and it’s just a way of getting you to pick up and talk to him?

    And also, this. It could be a trap.

    “I just want to know that after all we’ve been through, we’re still friends.”

    O.o
    *pause*
    Well, he certainly has nerve, doesn’t he?
    *reading further*
    And the conciliatory message is certainly an attempt to save his ass, and possibly also an attempt to manipulate you into feeling bad if you don’t “help him out”, whether for free, or for a reduced fee, or at all. You know…for friendship’s sake. Emotional coercion. General button-pushing. You are meant to feel all warm and maternal and some such shit. Run!
     
    (Metaphorically.)

    *hugs* for Dalillama. Wish I could help.
    :(

    -

  10. dave001 says

    @2 rq “Token gesture, maybe, but nice.” Yeah, I’m torn on that one. French is an official language, a nod to Quebec and the rest of the francophone population, but it is possible for a child in Quebec to grow up and not learn English and it happens. This puts them at a disadvantage, I believe. So, official Inuktitut, sure, but not if it results in easy isolation, if you see what I mean.

  11. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    *sips bourbon and cocke combo*

    I’m pretty sure liquor is irritating to sensitive tissue.. O.O

  12. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Is this old news? I smell entitlement, satire and all…

    Read that yesterday, and it didn’t strike me as satire at all; just privilege and cluelessness. It reminded me (at least, in my reactions to it) of the letters by wealthy people, oh, it must have been more than a year ago, bewailing how they just can’t make ends meet on a less-than-larcenous reduced income, what with owning multiple houses and all, and how inhumane it was that they’d have to take only one vacation this year, and that it would have to be cut from their usual 4 weeks, down to a mere 2, oh woe and alackaday!

    Never run from a bear.
    Unless you are faster than your companions.

    They do say that you may come out of it okay if you climb a tree.
     
    A small tree.
     
    And I’d recommend climbing it really really really fast

    Welcome in, Mario!
    -

  13. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Azkyroth! Relieved to see you!
    -

  14. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Thanks.

    I’m…okay, just a lot of bottled up emotions came out at once last night. Mostly what carlie said, except mostly because of things that happened months or years ago – especially juxtaposed with things that happened more years ago. :/

  15. says

    Cerberus:

    Not sure how to respond to that.

    Don’t. Either leave or clean up comments and block them from further commenting. Why give them the satisfaction of a response or an excuse to escalate?

  16. The Mellow Monkey says

    My partner has received a grant offer from a university he had written off as impossible, while the one he plans on attending hasn’t sent him an award letter yet and the clock is ticking down here. It’s a mighty big difference in distance and environment between the two.

    I feel both happy for him and sick to my stomach. I guess we just wait and see how things continue to develop.

  17. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Been working on my taxes. Certain deductible expenses skyrocketed last year. UGH. *goes behind counter and gets a large tankard of grog*

  18. says

    Welcome, Mario!

    Mellow Monkey, which one do you want? I once had a job offer from a place I didn’t want and was able to hurry the one I did by telling them about it.

    *hugs* for Portia, Cerberus and Azkyroth.

    Umm, Azkyroth, if it’s not too difficult for you, would you mind sharing maybe just a little about your triggers. I remember I stepped on your toes once by accident, and I’d rather avoid that if I can.

  19. says

    Ah fuck. Hotel rooms for the WiS2 conference are sold out. I’m going to call the hotel’s conference manager to see if they’ll open one more room at at least the $209 rate, if not the $149 rate. If not, I’m probably gonna book the hostel 3 blocks down the street. The left-over from the donations will still go to CFI for the conference…

    :(

    The current normal bookings rate at the hotel are $339 a night, BTW, not including taxes and fees…

  20. carlie says

    Azkyroth – the rotten thing about memories is how your brain can take dozens of incidents that were each not too bad on their own, or at least were bearable, and were spread out over the course of many years, and crush them all together in a big heap of “and this is everything wrong with life” pile on top of your face all at once so together they are worse than any of them were to begin with. Fucking brains.

    (hugs)

  21. The Mellow Monkey says

    Alethea

    Mellow Monkey, which one do you want? I once had a job offer from a place I didn’t want and was able to hurry the one I did by telling them about it.

    We’re rooting for the one that hasn’t offered anything yet. I’ll point this possibility out to him.

  22. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    *grog* is deductible?

    Only if it spoils. The Mythies usually take my surplus for bigger booooommmmmssssss.

  23. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Asher Kay

    Thanks – thanks a lot.

    Class is over, this is dead week, I’m supposed to be studying for finals. In law school. That kinda count, for, y’know, a lot.

    So when I skip out to make comments on some random blog, I feel like I have to make ‘em count, y’know? Becasue when I look back on my expensive legal education I want to be able to say that during my 3 years I really made some quality blog comments.

    Or do I somehow have something off in my priorities??? Somehow I think Hermione would disapprove.

  24. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Nate, you’re planning on going to WiS? I’ve been thinking likewise, and I can get cheap(ish) hotel rooms through a professional discount. I was holding off until I could find someone to split one with.

    Shoot me an email (my nym at the googles) if you’re interested.

  25. Funny Diva says

    apropos of nothing: why, oh WHY have I not been reading Amanda Marcotte religiously? I know, I know, she’s frequently quoted here at FtB, but I’m working back through her pieces at “XX Factor” and dayam! She’s snark-tastically awesome and on point. Her piece on the “friend zone” is cracking me up.

    But as fabulous as she is, all y’all regular commenters of Teh Horde are even more awesome.
    I don’t comment much, but I lurk like crazy. Haven’t said how much I appreciate everyone’s efforts, especially dealing with the sexism/misogyny threads, in awhile, so let me do so now:

    Horde, you RAWK!

    Hugs, hot tea and crispy bacon for whoever needs or desires a pick-me-up.

  26. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Hot tea – that’s what I need.

    Thanks FunnyD – this property law is getting me down & I can’t focus for more than a 1/2 hour at a time. a good tea might help.

    And, yeah, Marcotte is often great. If I didn’t have to study, I’d be tempted to read that friend zone piece right now…but I have enough distraction here on FtB.

  27. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Oh, Crip Dyke, I sent you an email. :D

  28. okstop says

    @CripDyke (#34):

    Okay, now I’m curious and wanna see the comments! Could you link me up, if you don’t mind?

  29. Funny Diva says

    Hang in there, Crip Dyke, RRFFtoD&HH.

    Don’t worry. The friend zone piece will be there at Slate when you’re ready. And it’s short (but pithy!).

  30. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @okstop:
    Visit here. I wanted him to read them, however, so I didn’t go all feminist ninja on him. This was me saying he did a bad job of forming the questions that he intended to ask, and what he intended to ask was okay, then going on to say that even the questions he intended to answer shouldn’t be that hard.

    So it’s kinder to his work than I have been here, as he was reading it and I wanted him to actually internalize the critique. But it did seem to have some value. Just don’t think badly of me for taking his questions seriously.

    @Esteleth – just replied, all about how I shouldn’t be replying :giggle:

    Thanks for the messages of support, y’all. I’ve had a really, really hard time focussing the last few days. I should be buckled down. I want to be buckled down. My first exam is on Wed, but I just can’t seem to focus more than a 1/2 hour at a time. It’s maddening. The tea is steeping right now, however, so maybe that will help.

  31. says

    Cicely! I finally got your posts on the ‘Best box’ post on Rattitude. They ended up in the spam filter for some reason, I have no idea why. Anyway, you’re untrapped now. :D

  32. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Oh, and Okstop – if ya wanna read some fun stomping of a libertarian, instead of the polite engagement over on Langsburg’s blog, you could search for Max Dick McMacho here. Most of it is actually on the page-2 of comments continuation.

  33. ck says

    The MRA crowd obsessively follows Marcotte around. They haven’t forgiven her the Duke lacrosse team thing. So, beware of the comments that often get posted to her writings if you don’t want to read rape apologetics.

    There’s a bunch more of her writings at Pandagon if you want to burn a lot more time.

  34. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Umm, Azkyroth, if it’s not too difficult for you, would you mind sharing maybe just a little about your triggers. I remember I stepped on your toes once by accident, and I’d rather avoid that if I can.

    I…don’t remember that. O.o

    I’ll think on this one; I’m not sure how to put some of them in words. :/

  35. pseudonymus says

    I don’t really have anything pertinent to add right this moment to pretty much anything, having just been exhausted by an unfortunate combination of being doggedly stubborn and being at odds with some intensely dishonest people, on YouTube no less (I just enabled my Herp Derp filter to protect me from myself), but I suppose it would be appropriate to say something now that I’ve finally registered on Freethought Blogs.

    I’ve long been a reader of FtB, Pharyngula in particular, and I’ve grown particularly fond of its commentariat, which I’ve come to truly admire for being righteously vicious and truly mindful of suffering, who I’ve come to hold as something of a role model, and as something of a figure to fear and not to disturb with samey and facile statements and inanity (like this miserable essay!)

    What I really want to say with the above paragraph is that I stand with you in solidarity.

    I hope that in the future I’ll have something less insipid to say.

  36. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Welcome, welcome, welcome, pseudonyms: pull up a USB port and dispense this Tea & Chocolate… or if you prefer, just have some of this Grog. The grog here is always good.

    Also, it has a very powerful inhibition lowering effect: when people here give you grog, you tend to lose your inhibitions to posting more here.

    Welcome to the Horde. We’re glad to have you.

  37. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    I hope that in the future I’ll have something less insipid to say.

    Newbies get a free drink and 10 e-ducat credit at the Pharyngula Saloon and Spanking Parlor (Patricia, Princess of Pullets, Proprietor). Only grog and swill are served, although most swill looks like regular bar drinks in permanently dirty glasses. Bacon, Popcornz, and bacon sammiches available at all hours.

  38. says

    Pseudonymus, you did fine. This is the lounge, no need to say anything of great import here. Welcome, and remember that every voice is important, including your own.

  39. pseudonymus says

    Oh, I know what I’ll have, having considered what grog actually contains:

    kerosene
    propylene glycol
    artificial sweeteners
    sulphuric acid
    rum
    acetone
    red dye no. 2
    scumm
    axle grease
    battery acid
    pepperoni

    I’ll take the tea, thank you very much – for the beverage and the warm welcome. I already feel less embattled and downtrodden.

  40. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Rum????
    No rum pollutes my grog, as it kills the alchemical grog starter. 181 proof rum status is achieved in 7 days….
    *mutters to self about battery acid being sulfuric acid*….

  41. Funny Diva says

    Hey, pseudonymus. Welcome to the lounge. Sounds like you and I spend a lot of time reading comments at Pharyngula. Hope you’ll bring some of your commenting energy over from YouTube…much, much better class of commenter over here, as you well know. More help fighting the intensely dishonest people.

    And I’ll re-echo pseudonymus’s sentiment: the Pharyngula commentariat is righteously vicious and truly mindful of suffering, and I also admire that intensely.
    Srsly, it’s been like an ongoing course in Practical Social Justice. My own, long-overdue “take the red pill” experience.

  42. dongiovanni says

    Good day to all you people…

    Generalised hugs to all who need them.

    Now, does anyone have any brain bleach? I’ve just gone a few rounds with everyone’s favourite Potty Peer and I need to scrub my brain of the memory.

    I just don’t know how my university can stand by and allow academic fraud to take place on its property, how Monckton can present “evidence” which is a graph badly mocked up in MS paint(!), and how people can believe him. Seriously, his skills at faking photos is somewhere south of the NKVD.

    Why do the nations so furiously rage together, and why do the people imagine a vain thing?

  43. says

    Funny Diva:

    Srsly, it’s been like an ongoing course in Practical Social Justice.

    I think it’s like that for all most of us. Learning as we go.

    Dongiovanni:

    Potty Peer

    Ah, the differences between English and American. :D

  44. dongiovanni says

    @ Caine: Indeed… would you prefer Vicious Viscount? Or Loony Lord? No, wait, he isn’t.

  45. says

    Thanks Azkyroth, no pressure. I hope you’re feeling better today.

    (We didn’t get in a big fight, no reason for you to remember specifically. More of a “wait, what? backing away now” thing. It was maybe 6-12 months ago. Something about gender roles & drinking IIRC.)

  46. chigau (unless...) says

    I actually posted a welcome to pseudonymus…
    … somewhere … probably …
    so again
    Welcome pseudonymus!
    and others who will all become regulars!
    —-
    PSI
    Please remember to copy and paste people’s ‘nyms.
    Because, mostly, your memory and tpying aten’t that good.

  47. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    To Max Dick McMacho where you may be: Your eminent display of True Manhood has reignited the fire in my belly, awoken my warrior spirit and de-vegitated my diet. Kudos my brother, kudos to you. I shall honour your shining example of phallus-hood whence next I drum naked by the light of a blazing bonfire. ;)

    Hello to the de-lurking! Welcome.

  48. chigau (unless...) says

    … whence next I drum naked by the light of a blazing bonfire …

    pix or it didn’t happen
    well just pix

    Fishy, I hope all your fire are out.
    [We had 10cm of snow over the past couple of days and cannot drive the truck into the driveway.]

  49. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Dang, grumble storm season has started. Wave one passed over, wave two in coming from the west….

  50. dongiovanni says

    …your shining example of phallus-hood…

    I’m sorry, but that just calls to mind images of a winged, be – haloed phallus descending from heaven to deliver the good news to Mary. “But now it is great joy that I announce, that you shall give birth to the Christ.”

    Yes, I know my mind is in the gutter.

  51. says

    Ah, the lounge… *kicks off shoes, sits on a comfy* yeah, that’s better. Now who’s got good movie suggestions, specifically not gory/ very violent ones?

  52. chigau (unless...) says

    jeeez Dutchgirl #67…
    that kinda limits the choices.
    You really don’t like a good decapitation?

  53. says

    pseudonymous… a big hearty welcome to you!

    But also a tiny, really insignificant warning… you are surrounded by science-minded skeptics. Battery acid? That’s sulfuric acid. Read the packages on nearly any food you buy. You’ll find sulfuric acid everywhere.

    Trust me… it’s damn near impossible to escape. But believe it or not, you actually need a little bit to maintain a healthy lifestyle.

    But in general, the version of “grog” you’re describing is not the only kind of grog. Check it out on Wikipedia. I much prefer Swedish grog myself, because it basically means you take whatever you have, mix it together, and enjoy. The experimentation is quite fun.

    Perhaps Nerd should post his recipe?

    I’d be interested, personally… ;)

    And pseudonymous… please don’t take this as a criticism. I’m nothing but excited to see new people here, including yourself. If you want Swedish Grog, I can make you a non-alcoholic one if you want (otherwise known as a fruit punch without the punch :D)… that is, if you’re just staying away from alcohol… which is totally respectable, BTW.

    Also, try the hookah. I recently hooked it up with some… um… well… not tobacco… but definitely a green, four-leafed plant. It is wonderful… :D

  54. says

    chigau, well normally I love horror movies and such, and there are lots on my list to see. But life has been rough lately and horror/gory/violent films won’t help me relax or escape right now. So, suggestions?

  55. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    Pics you say chigau? Funny you should ask. How about this one or this one? They’re fiery enough, no nekkidness though. Large file warning for them’s that have restrictive data plans.

    That’s the hill just on the edge of town and it was fired as a fuel reducing measure just a couple of days ago. When the CFA goes around deliberately lighting fires it’s time to stop worrying about bushfires. A relief to be sure. It was long, hot stressful summer.

  56. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    How about The Princess Bride, Dutchgirl? It has a that torture scene, but it’s pretty unrealistic, though triggers are no respecters of fantasy.

    I have a couple of Canadian independent films I could recommend that might fit the bill, but good luck finding them.

  57. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Fossil Fishy, #62

    I’m kinda hopin that Josh will come around & we’ll get the official spokesgay press release on McMacho.

  58. chigau (unless...) says

    FossilFishy
    I see no nakedness nor drumming in those pix.
    That’s what I was really after ;)

    Dutchgirl
    I don’t go to cinemas so I’m usually waaaay behind on movies.
    If you don’t like gore-porn, stick to romantic comedies and disney.
    [I do all of my yearly movie-watching in a two week period around Xmas.]
    [so I'm not a good source of info about movies.]

  59. Portia says

    Lynna
    You’re right. I’m definitely viewing his behavior through a habitual manipulator lens.

    Pteryxx
    (My responses might be disjointed because my thoughts about your thoughts have come out of order).

    Jerk: “Why are you still grumpy?” (minimizing your distrust for cause)

    The grumpy comment was incredibly trivializing, that’s what made me scoff. The gall of this guy. Thanks for catching it.

    Jerk: “I just want to know that after all we’ve been through, we’re still friends.” (unilaterally declaring friendship at you)

    exactly. Had I not been determined to stay all-business, I probably would have snarked about it taking two to friendship or something.

    You: “You said you wouldn’t talk to me again until I apologized, but apparently that doesn’t apply when you have an emergency. So what’s the emergency.” (Controlling whether conversation happens or not on his terms.)

    Only after the conversation he wanted to have does he text you to say what a great and forgiving person you are. Bleargh – if he felt any remorse he’d have led off with acknowledging you might not want to deal with him instead of chain-texting you.

    You *are* a good person (pretty forgiving, too) but he isn’t. Whether or not you decide to lawyer for him, I hope you keep him at arm’s length. At this point he deserves LESS trust than a total stranger would.

    Good luck and take care of yourself. *leaves portable anklehugs*

    My comment about “what’s the emergency” did highlight the imperious way he had ended contact, but it was also my way of not allowing him to drag me into an unproductive, gaslighty discussion about that night. I simply refused to talk about our defunct personal relationship. I feel good about that, and keeping my boundaries there makes me feel good about my ability to keep boundaries with him in general.

    Good point about his timing of saying how great I am…also that he can’t say it to me verbally. Whatever I do, be assured I will definitely do the arm’s length thing. I am not going to do him the favor of even explaining why I stopped talking to him without some indication that he has seriously changed his attitude (which is contraindicated to the extreme). No reason to waste my breath and get upset for no reason when he clearly has an accountability-free version in his head. I also hated that he said “Nothing that happened was worth losing a close friend over.” Another unilateral statement. I ignored that text, but what I wanted to say was “Maybe not to you!” He doesn’t get that he doesn’t get to decide what is worth ending a friendship over when there are two people in it. And saying he was “sorry for the way he left things” indicates he doesn’t take responsibility for the events that caused the leaving of things. Guess that’s almost being sorry for berating me, but not really. I guess it’s possible that before the phone conversation he really wasn’t aware how pissed I was at him, because I just went to radio silence. He is good at denial, after all.

    Thanks so much for your insight and encouragement. Most of the time when I am forgiving my lizard brain tells me I’m just being a doormat.

    carlie

    he was trying several different opening gambits to see which one hit your buttons enough to unlock your willingness to deal with him. Not good.

    A very good point. If it makes you feel better, he just kept hitting brick walls via text and unanswered call until he actually told me he had business to discuss. And then when he got me on the phone he hit walls whenever he tried to talk about non-business.

    mildlymagnificent

    I see them as the opening manoeuvres in a quest to get services free or at “mates rates” – because we’re friends.

    Hm, that’s another good point. Quite possible. Too bad for him he’s SOL on that front :D

    Crip Dyke

    Somehow I think Hermione would disapprove.

    I think Hermione-types are the worst in law school. : ) Property might be the worst, as far as 1L subjects go. If I can ever help, let me know. I did decently in Property (and other stuff) and it has only gotten clearer to me since then.

    pseudonymus
    Hello and welcome in!

    Dutchgirl
    Arranged on Netflix was good, I watched it a while ago.

    GROG
    I have a pound of grog-flavored coffee I bought yesterday that I can’t wait to grind and brew in the morning :D

    FossilFishy
    Dang, them’s some fahrs!

    I zillionth the sentiment about the Horde. Y’all are so great. ♥

    I played a trivia game with two cousins tonight. The first question of the game was for me, and it was “What is the term for a person who does not believe in a god?”
    The outrage over the easiness of the question was only outdone by the hilarity of the appropriateness of it for me. :D :D :D

    I’m sure right after I hit submit something else will come to mind.

  60. xerxes the magnificent says

    Funny Diva, ck
    You owe me two hours of my life. Damn, Amanda Marcotte is fantastic!

  61. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Portia

    If it makes you feel better, he just kept hitting brick walls via text and unanswered call until he actually told me he had business to discuss. And then when he got me on the phone he hit walls whenever he tried to talk about non-business.

    So… you got Admiral Ackbar’s message, did you? Good.

    Property might be the worst, as far as 1L subjects go. If I can ever help, let me know. I did decently in Property (and other stuff) and it has only gotten clearer to me since then.

    I like to say, and I’m sure others have probably said this independently, but I still like to say it:

    Property is the only 1L standard class that has no structure in it.

    As for help, why not give me your e-mail? If I have questions, then no one else here has to listen to me whining and flailing…

  62. Portia says

    So… you got Admiral Ackbar’s message, did you? Good.

    bwahahahah Exactly! No good could come from going there.

    Property is the only 1L standard class that has no structure in it.

    Absolutely true. It just covers so much stuff that’s otherwise unrelated. I mean, mortgages and future interests? Ferae naturae and bailments? Very different principles and frameworks to keep straight for one exam. At least with Torts you’ve got duty-breach-causation to fall back on no matter the question.

    As for help, why not give me your e-mail? If I have questions, then no one else here has to listen to me whining and flailing…

    Great idea. :) bravo before my nym at teh googles. (It sounds very self-celebratory but it’s a long, nonsensical story). Holler at me here when you email me so I can make sure to check the over-active spam filter. And do feel free to send one any time. I know the horror of exams and stress and eeevvverrrrythiiiiiiiing about 1L year. Don’t feel bad about unwinding via the Lounge or FtB, either. You have to do something else with your brain function sometimes :)

  63. says

    @ NateHevens

    epitaph:

    Little Johnny is dead,
    and will be seen no more.
    For what he thought was H2O,
    was H2SO4.

    @ Ebil Oberlawd

    Does we get sub-scripts and super-scripts back, plz?

  64. Portia says

    (Oh, and Crip Dyke, I graduated from law school approximately 15 months ago so the ordeal is still fresh enough in my mind :) )

  65. says

    “Hey, hey Boo Boo! You wanna go raid a picinick basket?”
    oh, wait, wrong bear.

    “Only YOU can prevent forest fires.”

    ****
    As I try to be more aware of, and fight against the ingrained sexism that I have, a recent discovery came to light. When thinking about the employees of my restaurant, I referred to the women as girls. Not a second after I thought it, my brain came to a screeching halt and reminded me that these were *women* I was referring to. Then I started to realize all the times I’ve done that before, just casually referring to grown women as girls.
    ::Sigh::
    I’m glad that my awareness has grown to the point that I notice this and am making a conscious attempt to stop.

    ****

    Sappy. That’s it.
    Wait…no it’s not.

    Sentimental. I think that’s…
    No, that’s not quite the word I’m looking for.

    ::searches frantically through online Dictionaries for synonyms::

    AHA!

    Maudlin
    That was me about an hour ago.
    That was me about an hour ago after reading two comments here in the Lounge.

    Pseudonymous
    Funny Diva

    I don’t know about anyone else, but thank you.
    Being here is a wonderful thing. The various members of the Horde so often come together in support of one another, or join hands in the wonderful chorus of rhetorical evisceration.
    But sometimes the battles being waged can take their toll.
    Sometimes, people get triggered and need to disengage.
    Sometimes, the “arguments” we’re presented with persist for so long and are so mindnumbingly asinine that some of us have to take a break, because you can only headdesk yourself so many times before you start to realize you’ll hurt yourself sooner than convince your opponent they are wrong.
    Sometimes you just wish they would go away; to depart civilization since they cannot seem to operate within its boundaries. Yet that’s not going to happen.

    That’s where people like you two come in.

    When I see people delurk, to offer support, to show that they “get it”, to stand shoulder to shoulder with those of us interested in and willing to fight for social justice (to whatever degree each individual is able to do), it is a reminder that
    we are not alone
    there are more people out there who understand
    The more people who stand up and shout down the misogynists…
    The more people who stand up and refuse to cower before the homophobes…
    The more people who refuse to stay silent when suffering occurs…
    The more people who express their heartfelt sympathies to those in need…

    those people remind me of what is good in humanity.

    Also, on a more selfish level, I love this place, but there’s a part of me that still thinks “dude you’ve only been here a few years, you’re not a member of the Horde. That’s a group that’s been around for a long time. One day.”
    Silly, I know.
    Still, that’s the way my mind works.
    Having jumped into the fray several times since I’ve been here, I’ve found that sometimes it gets rough.
    I’ve thought “Fuck! When will this end? When will these people get it?”
    Though our opponents here number so small, the oppressive factors they represent are so ingrained in society…they so permeate everywhere you look…sometimes it can get depressing.
    Sometimes it gets to the point where you can feel like–“although we have each other, is it working?”
    Then something curious happens.

    Thanks are given.
    Appreciation is expressed.
    Empathy is displayed.
    Solidarity is shown.

    I am not one who often needs to hear “you’re doing a good job” or “I’m really proud of you”, but sometimes, you know what?

    It feels DAMN good to hear.

    So thank you both.

    (as an example of my maudlin mood, I’ve come to tears multiple times since I first read both your comments, as well as over the course of composing this comment).

  66. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @ Portia

    Okay, dropped an e-mail your way. unless I’m dramatically more braindead than even I think I am, you will have it waiting for you – in your spam filter or inbox, one of the two.

  67. ednaz says

    Portia

    A very good point. If it makes you feel better, he just kept hitting brick walls via text and unanswered call until he actually told me he had business to discuss. And then when he got me on the phone he hit walls whenever he tried to talk about non-business.

    This is very good to hear! *Yay!*

    Tony! *Tacklehug*

    Welcome Pseudonymous and Funny Diva!

  68. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    We’re here for you Tony. Don’t know if that’s reassuring or just makes things more intense. It is nice to have community, though, isn’t it.

  69. says

    I don’t generally believe the stories of ‘I applied but didn’t get in!’ of GPA 4.5s and high SATs.

    …Mostly because I got into all my top schools with a 2.0 GPA and high SATs and no diversity on my application (not a girl then, either). My hobbies of tearing apart PCs and bicycling weren’t exactly uncommon, either.

  70. Portia says

    I don’t think I can stay awake for another episode of TWW, so that’s my cue to turn in. Hope everyone has a peaceful night, or a sunny day.

  71. ednaz says

    Dutchgirl – Finding Nemo. All Time Mellow Out Movie. : )

    I see no nakedness nor drumming in those pix.

    Hee hee, chigau. Great minds and all of that. ; p

    Max Dick McMacho – So Full Of Win!! : D


    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS

    Also, try the hookah. I recently hooked it up with some… um… well… not tobacco… but definitely a green, four-leafed plant. It is wonderful… :D

    hmmmm…interesting : D

  72. yazikus says

    So, I missed my official outing as a lurker. I have been lurking for 5 or 6 years, a pandagon transplant , if you will. I so appreciate the Horde, and I’ve been able to hold my own in arguments in meatspace that I have learned here. Caine totally brought me up to sped on my basic HTML, and Block Quoting. This space is super awesome, and I hope you all know it. I’m Yazikus, a free thinker, a parent, a friend, a social justice advocate, a Third Culture Kid.

  73. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    well then, welcome Yazikus!

    Y’know, the first time I saw your ‘nym I had to do a double take, because I thought it was “yakizus” and all I could come up with was,

    Fried greek god??

    Yeah, reading comprehension: I got better!

  74. rq says

    ednaz, chigau
    There probably is a nekkid naked FossilFishy dancing in those pictures… but you can’t see the wood for the trees. (Too early?)

    Portia
    I don’t think you should represent him. You’re setting a precedent. This time it’s jail, next time – it will be that much harder to say no. Because precedent. Especially since he tried so hard to get your attention. And if you represent him, it gives him permission to call and text anytime (well, I’m assuming he’ll think that anytime is a Good Time), and while initially it might all stay on business and everything, how long until things stray? (Not saying you can’t hold it, I know you can, but it’s a natural thing if speaking to someone on a regular basis – hard to stay on topic all the time… That’s a lot of extra concentration and nerves.) Refer him, and refer all further law questions from him to your referree.
    (Yes, I thought about it last night and then this morning while reviewing comments.)

    de-lurkers (Funny Diva, pseudonymous, Mario)
    More than welcome! :)
    I’ll save the initiation question(s) for later.
    Don’t worry, they’re not hard! Just, you know, a lot of Latin incantations and weird costume identification to specific time periods and that sort of stuff. Common knowledge. [/joking]

    +++

    I know why they invented quail eggs. Because somebody, somewhere, wanted to make just one pancake. And it needed an egg of just the right size.

    Heart-warming children’s story:
    Discussion with Eldest about Jesus
    Eldest: Why did they kill him?
    me: blah blah blah didn’t like his politics blah blah blah
    Eldest: How did he rise from the dead?
    me: Well, some people believe that he was the son of god, and that that gives him special powers.
    Eldest: Was he the son of god?
    me: I think it’s a nice story somebody made up to teach people to be kind. I don’t think he was actually the son of god.
    Eldest: But some people think he is?
    me: Yes. What do you think? Do you believe he really was the son of god, or do you think it’s just a nice story?
    Eldest: I believe you.
    *melt into speechlessness*

  75. says

    Welcome yazikus.
    Now I must look up what a Third Culture Kid is…

    ****

    Crip Dyke:
    Thanks you.
    The feeling I was trying to express was one of thanks for those who come forward to say they appreciate the efforts of everyone here. In my sentimental frame of mind, that may not have come out quite as effectively (or in other words, I am more or less fine, but seeing the added support of lurkers–in addition to the support of the Horde–is reinvigorating)

  76. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    you can’t see the wood for the trees.

    I see what you did there.

    PS. Forgot to welcome Mario – but others did, so I hope you *felt* welcome.

  77. rogers says

    Gallup May 5-8, 2011
    79% of Americans either believe the Bible is the actual word of God to be taken literally or the Bible is inspired by God.
    17% consider the Bible an ancient book of stories recorded by man.
    Among college grads, it is still very close: 79% & 19%.
    —————————————————————-
    This is quite astounding considering that public education is almost purely naturalistic because they did not want to retain God in their knowledge.
    What is the alternative? – Naturalism
    Naturalism defined by wiki:
    “Naturalism commonly refers to the viewpoint that laws of nature (as opposed to supernatural ones) operate in the universe, and that nothing exists beyond the natural universe or, if it does, it does not affect the natural universe”
    In these last days, many are under a strong delusion as foretold, with Naturalism evidently prominent:
    2 Thessalonians 2:10-13
    …because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

  78. says

    Mario:
    Welcome to The Lounge.
    If any new people want to join our virtual Commune, I believe rq is in charge of that. She will need a list of skills or talents you possess that will be much needed in the days and years to come following the Equine zombie outbreak…

  79. rq says

    Azkyroth
    Before it slips my mind again, I’m very glad to hear you’re ok. :) *hugs* if you want them, extra available anytime.

    Tony
    By the way, you are still awesome. As always.

    de-lurkers
    I apologize for addressing you as a group, but there are, like, four of you, and that’s a lot!!
    Anyhoo, what Tony said about the Commune is true. Here is the current Commune information. I think there may be a more updated version of the chart not-yet-posted, but I’ll have to root through my archives and double check. So: note there are two Very Important empty categories, namely Glass-Grinding (Optical Grade), and Dentistry. If you, or someone you know, has these skills, these positions have not yet been filled (guaranteed Status! ;) ). This is the spreadsheet of current listed skills. Still looking for a good location, though, so if there is a good-sized plot of empty-yet-fertile land near you, let us know!
    If, however, all you possess, in your opinion, are Random Useless Skills, or would be better as Zombie Bait, we have categories for that, too. If you have a new category, let me know. Everyone’s input is important to Us. Welcome to the Hive-Mind (with, as someone once said, Multiple Personality Disorder).
    Information regarding the Commune can be addressed to myself or to Dalillama, who is the official Poster to the Internet, along with official Collector of Such Commune Information as Needs to Be Added.

  80. says

    Hello, wise and clever folks. Best wishes to all, of course.

    I found this just recently, and it makes me ridiculously happy.

    If this is old news, I apologize, but if it’s new to you, and you enjoy it as much as I do, then there’s no foul, right? (Are there more commas than necessary in there? Damn you Oxford!)

    Great sentiment!

  81. Gen, Uppity Ingrate. says

    Kalil, 6:

    That is a great article, thanks for posting it.

    Crip Dyke: Good luck with your exams!

    Dutch Girl I am so behind the times with movies I don’t even, but I would like to recommend unto you an older classic: Empire Records. Seriously, that’s been my go-to have fun and feel good movie since I was a teen. That one and Senior Trip (Aka National Lampoon’s Senior Trip and/or Senior School. Which is just fucking weird, because it has nothing at all to do with the National Lampoon franchise or Chevy Chase, I assure you. Why do they need to change the titles all the time in any case? I confuse easily!)

  82. says

    Good morning
    Ahhh, conversations at home.
    Mr.: What are you thinking about?
    Me: I’ve almost finished embroidering the pieces for our friend’s baby-quilt. I want to add some free motion quilting, but that’s impossible with the full-size quilt, so I’m thinking about sandwiching the individual pieces and construct it in the end.
    Mr.: Several completly useless suggestions because he doesn’t know the first thingabout sewing an quilting.
    Me: No, no, no, no
    Mr.: Then I can’t help you
    Me: I know.


    From the last thread:
    Paging beatrice, paging beatrice
    We are contemplating spending the summer holiday in Croatia.
    Nothing sure yet, just an idea…
    can I pick your brain?
    We want to go to the sea-side, and a zoo in the vicinity would be a huge plus.
    So would be a meeting with beatrice.

    Dalillama
    Big hugs
    It must be hard for you to be the buffer between two people who have been so badly hurt that they keep hurting each other unintentionally.

    Portia
    Hugs
    It’s absolute professional behaviour to turn down a client you couldn’t treat to the best of your abilities.


    +++

    Yeah, I’m torn on that one. French is an official language, a nod to Quebec and the rest of the francophone population, but it is possible for a child in Quebec to grow up and not learn English and it happens. This puts them at a disadvantage, I believe. So, official Inuktitut, sure, but not if it results in easy isolation, if you see what I mean.

    Yeah, because why should I have to deal with any other language? I already speak English and so should you!

  83. ck says

    rogers,

    “Last days”? Sorry, but if you’re an end-of-timeser, you could not possibly have chosen a worse audience. Please provide evidence that any of that nonsense is true. Given how many end times I’ve survived during my relatively short tenure in this universe, you’re going to have to better than squinting at some words written in a bronze age holy book.

    What is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and I don’t expect you will provide any.

  84. mildlymagnificent says

    When the CFA goes around deliberately lighting fires it’s time to stop worrying about bushfires. A relief to be sure. It was long, hot stressful summer.

    Sort of. I’m yet to be convinced that the long hot is fully done with us yet.

    They’ve started burning in the Adelaide hills area and a few other places. But they’re also predicting temperatures of 28 or 29 just like today for the rest of this week. Everything’s brown and as dry as toast. But it looks as though there are no storms or winds predicted so burning should be okay.

  85. Lofty says

    mildlymagnificent

    Everything’s brown and as dry as toast

    23mm of rain over Easter at our place, the soil moisture is sprouting all the grass seed and its a perfect time for burning off. So long as the wind keeps down they’re gonna burn what they can before winter. There simply aren’t enough ideal days to fit in the burning off that’s on the to do list.

  86. says

    gilliell

    It must be hard for you to be the buffer between two people who have been so badly hurt that they keep hurting each other unintentionally.

    Unfortunately, it has gone worse rather than better. D was severely suicidal earlier, to the point where there was serious consideration of hospitalization, except that it’s not a long term solution and no one will offer us one. The people at the ER were completely useless, and there are no free sources of therapy in this town. L is a complete wreck too, both because of the initial hurt and because he feels responsible for her etc, but at the same time he needs some time ans some space because it’s hurting to be around her. D is refusing to eat, she says until things blow over, and I don’t know how to deal with that. I’m filled with so much rage and helplessness right now, but none of my anger is directed at D or L, but at the worthless fuckers who chronically sabotage every effort to have a functional fucking health care system in this country that would have gotten them both the help the fucking need. I just don’t know what to do, and I’m constantly pissed off that there’s no source of help, at all.

  87. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    For the love of squid you people are hard to please. Right, fine. Here. Happy now?

  88. John Morales says

    “The ground shakes, drums… drums in the deep.

    We cannot get out. A shadow lurks in the dark.

    We can not get out… they are coming.”

  89. rq says

    FossilFishy
    There’s still not enough bare skin to please some people in this Lounge, but hey, that sounds like a good start to something musical!

  90. rq says

    Dalillama
    :( and *hugs* and… I hope things improve, although that seems like a pretty trite thing to say. :(
    Is there any way to help?

  91. John Morales says

    Libertarians’ nightmare: Organ donors to be paid six-weeks’ salary

    The Federal Government will trial a scheme to pay employees wanting to donate an organ a six-week salary on the minimum wage.

    Under the scheme, workers will be paid up to $606 per week for six weeks to help ease the burden of medical costs.

    [...]

    Transplant Australia chief executive officer Chris Thomas says it has been difficult for potential donors because many cannot take sick leave.

    He estimates there could be over 100 extra a donors a year because of the scheme.

    “The cost of dialysis to society over giving someone a kidney transplant. is about $80,000 a year,” he said.

  92. carlie says

    Now who’s got good movie suggestions, specifically not gory/ very violent ones?

    I like fluffy movies that end happily. That Thing You Do! is one of my favorite movies ever. I am also a sucker for Sleepless in Seattle.

    Little Johnny is dead,
    and will be seen no more.
    For what he thought was H2O,
    was H2SO4.

    Scene: restaurant, two people at table with waiter. Person 1: “I’d like some H20″. Person 2:”That sounds good, I’ll have some H20 too!” A few minutes later: Person 2 dead. Person 1 says “Idiot.”

    Welcome, yazikus. I used to be a Pandagonian as well. Also welcome to the other de-lurkers.

  93. rq says

    Speaking of Libertarians.
    Anyone else here watching/has watched the series Once Upon a Time? I heard all kinds of amaaaaazing things (incl. the old Strong Female Characters!) about it, so I finally succumbed. Have now watched 3 episodes of it with Husband. While it isn’t bad, three things (umm, putting a potential spoiler alert here, though I’ll try not to reveal anything, in case anyone is interested in the show):
    1) the whole strong-female-leads etc. is kind of destroyed when the whole point of the show (so far seems to be) is to push the It’s every woman’s dream and destiny to be a mother! line. Seriously. The protagonist adopted her son ten years ago, and he looks her up (at the age of 10, yes) and is all about convincing her to come back into his life, because she must be unhappy being single and well-employed (and then there’s Cinderella’s whole situation, too). Which brings me to
    2) the other lead character (sort of the initiator, if you will), is a boy who does not know the meaning of personal boundaries. Every No is a reason to disobey, to ignore, to cajole, to be all But pleeeease I just want to spend time with you!. All about fixing the stories,and hooking all princesses back up with their respective princes (because they’re so incomplete without each other, right). And he’s not even likeable, nor do I particularly sympathize with him (even though his adoptive mother is, literally, the Witch/EvilFairy), and his insistence on having everyone do what he wants because he believes it is right is somewhat revolting. And,
    3) Rumpelstiltskin is so a Libertarian. ‘Every bit of magic comes with a price!’ is his motto (or something like, I can’t be bothered to look up the word-for-word version), and, in his mind, anything and everything can be bought or sold, and contracts are the be-all and end-all of the whole world. (And, probably, government shouldn’t regulate anything, but he gets to dictate everyone’s interaction with him, often to their own detriment.)

    Those are my current opinions. The ideas in the show are pretty good, though – I like the transfer of fairy-tale characters/story-lines to the real world and modern times, and the way the characters have been brought to life, although I’m a bit worried about how they’ll end up portraying Little Red Riding Hood, considering she’s currently a scantily clad waitress at the diner. That could go awesome ways, and it could go so very wrong (remember, I haven’t seen past episode 3 of season 1).

  94. The Mellow Monkey says

    rq – I’m hooked on the show, but I also rant about it angrily when every new episode comes out. It’s got some huge, horrible race fail. As it turns out, every single POC (save Mulan in the second season) has either turned out to be evil or dies. Sometimes both! It was pointed out to me that the show is really groundbreaking and awesome because there’s a Strong! Female! Character! who is a main character and is a Latina! …she is also, literally, the Evil Queen, who is a murderer and a magical rapist. (I’m not sure if there are spoilers in that link, so be cautious.)

    It’s a great role and Lana Parrilla is amazing, but it’s not so great when you consider that there’s nothing to balance that. Jorge Garcia also has a character, but he’s pretty clearly coded as white.

    And there’s absolutely zero respect offered to adoptive parents, as Regina’s maternal bond with Henry is crapped on every episode. It’s written as though she’s just this weird lady obsessed with this kid for a random reason, instead of the person who raised him from infancy.

    My easily mislead heart keeps pining for a lesbian pairing on the show, which it really feels like they’re teasing the audience with, but I imagine it’s going to stay strictly heteronormative. After all, True (Straight!) Love is the answer for everything on the show.

    But I keep watching, because I want to see what happens and I’m completely in love with Meghan Ory (Little Red Riding Hood), who could have on-screen chemistry with a rock.

  95. rq says

    The Mellow Monkey
    I completely agree with you about LRRH (I mean, I’m straight, but that girl just radiates appeal, and there’s something about her voice!). I’m still a bit hesitant about her role, but the fact that she seems to have been a true friend to Cinderella was a really, really nice turn – that they made her into a helpful, nice person rather than the Evil Town Slut-Gossip, or something.
    You know what? I’d love a non-heteronormative pairing on the show. There’s so much potential for it, without even trying – the dwarves, all the princesses, and it could even fit, in a strange kind of way (by which I mean not strange-due-to-being-non-heteronormative, but strange-it’s-not-in-the-stories) and would make fairy-tales so much more accessible to people of non-straight orientation.
    I did notice the Adoptive Parents Are Bad track, and it really, really annoys me already, and it’s really too bad, but they seem to be pushing the hetero-, non-adoptive family view almost religiously (especially with Cinderella, how things were magically okay and she wasn’t a potential single mother at all – even though that would have been perfectly realistic). I like how Regina defends herself as his mother (the whole first-episode (?) line about how she raised him, changed every diaper, etc., etc., the automatic threat-response to the birth-mother randomly showing up), but then they go out of their way to show how she always leaves him alone and acts like he’s property (you know, pays attention to him once other people start to).
    Oh, and the race problem that you mention. Yes. The Fairy-Godmother/Rumpelstiltskin first interaction… Oh my. I saw that the Fairy Godmother was a PoC, and internally I rejoiced, and she said about five words, and *Poof!*! Gone! I thought she’d come back (you know, magic and all…), but… Apparently not! Wow. Just wow, on that one.
    Anyway, I feel guilty for wanting to see more of it, but it is fun and addictive.

    PS What’s with all the guys looking awfully similar to each other in that ‘This is a goodlooking type, let’s cast all of them!’ way? [/so far]

  96. left0ver1under says

    For those who object to corporations invading their privacy and storing data about themselves (especially where false or erroneous data is concerned), this should be of interest:

    http://www.digitaltrends.com/web/new-california-right-to-know-bill-allows-customers-access-to-their-market-research-data/

    New California bill would allow customers access to what companies know about them

    California Assembly Member Bonnie Lowenthal, a representative of the city of Los Angeles, has introduced a bill known as “The Right to Know Act of 2013? that would compel California-based companies that store customers’ information to share that data with said customer upon request. If they do not comply, the companies can face legal consequences, including a civil suit on behalf of the subject.

    The bill, as it currently exists:
    http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/bill/asm/ab_1251-1300/ab_1291_bill_20130222_introduced.pdf

    To no surprise (and thankfully) this is being driven by the EFF and ACLU. If it can be done in one state, maybe it can be forced across the US.

  97. carlie says

    rq – I watched it devotedly the first season, and it’s kind of lost me this season. They went a few weeks without a new episode and I realized I really don’t miss it, and I kind of read recaps now and go “eh, not missing much”. Agree with everything that’s been said already, and that although it’s fun and there are some good things, there are also some hella bad things and plot holes and whatnot.

  98. The Mellow Monkey says

    I completely agree with you about LRRH (I mean, I’m straight, but that girl just radiates appeal, and there’s something about her voice!). I’m still a bit hesitant about her role, but the fact that she seems to have been a true friend to Cinderella was a really, really nice turn – that they made her into a helpful, nice person rather than the Evil Town Slut-Gossip, or something.

    I’m pretty pleased with how they’ve treated LRRH/Ruby, for the most part. There’s some darkness in her fairy tale history and they handle it in an interesting way. She’s a flirt and she shows off her body and Granny doesn’t think she’s very responsible, but she’s also a loyal friend and is never portrayed as stupid or flirting for any reason other than just plain enjoying it. She’s also one of the few female characters whose entire motivation in life doesn’t revolve around a man or boy. Friendship and supporting her loved ones (who are usually other women) is what drives her and it’s sorely needed as balance from the “males as motivation” dominance in most of the other female characters’ storylines.

    For all it’s aggravating faults and flaws, it is a really addictive show.

  99. rq says

    The Mellow Monkey
    That’s really comforting to know. That at least one character has (so far) escaped the male-female relationship model, and seems to have a true spine of her own. I’ll be watching her with much more appreciation!

    carlie
    It’s only season 2 going now, right? I guess the point is to capture viewers in the first season, let a couple slide, then ramp it up later on once viewership decreases. Right? (Although I think BSG went the other way, but that’s just my opinion.)

  100. rq says

    And apropos of nothing at all: I am apparently ideologically opposed to using the dishwasher (that is, the one that is not Husband… ;) we inherited one with the house) – no one has accused me of this, but I really don’t like using that machine purely because of the (apparent) life-style I believe it encourages. I think I hate the idea of just grabbing something new (and clean) rather than rinsing off something that’s been slightly used. (Talk about conservative, though – it’s a kitchen appliance to reduce work in the kitchen, and I hate it… Weird.)
    And besides, I’m not going to grab a new mug every time I have tea – I only have one favourite mug, not a multitude of favourite mugs.
    And I don’t think we use enough dishes for it to actually be economically useful in any way. [/random]

  101. says

    What is the deal with Patheos? Do you get a free car and lifetime supply of oreos to blog there? How many FtBloggers have made the move there?

    Speaking of those leaving, I did not care for Non Stamp Collector referring to “both sides do it” in hir departing post.

  102. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Dishwashers use dramatically fewer water & energy resources than hand washing a similar amount of resources. To the point where you can run a load less than 1/3rd full and still be saving energy & water.

    …unless you wash your dishes in cold water, and of course this is an average: most people who hand wash use blah, blah.

    The actual breakdown was different for different dishwashers, but generally, if you care about the environment and you use it long enough to pay back the energy in creating the darn thing, it’s much better to use the dishwasher. It’s not for you, it’s for MommaGreen.

    …especially if you already have the thing in your home, so the cost to the planet to create the dishwasher has been incurred whether you use it or not.

    Don’t feel forced to use it, but I thought you should know.

  103. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Tony:

    Yeah, the pox on both their houses language was unsettling. Even if you define aggression in a way so as to make it truly equally expressed on FtB and in the slymepit, one is doing it in defense of sexism, one is doing it in defense of human equality. One might think that part of the calculus would be worth a mention.

  104. The Mellow Monkey says

    Tony

    Speaking of those leaving, I did not care for Non Stamp Collector referring to “both sides do it” in hir departing post.

    Considering that NSC didn’t provide a single example of “our” side doing anything, it was especially egregious.

  105. Portia says

    rq
    As it goes on, I think you’ll really enjoy some of the things they do with LRRH’s character. She’s definitely my favorite. I agree with all your other assessments of the show, too, and Mellow Monkey’s. I’m addicted to it as well.

    I was excited when they brought in a WOC in recent episodes, and then brought her in some more, and then….oh wait that’d be a spoiler, nevermind : )

    As for the dishwasher, I see what you mean. I didn’t use mine for months, thinking it was better to just wash two dishes as they were dirtied (being just me living here and all). But then I realized they were piling up sometimes on the counter to the point where they’d fill half the dishwasher, so I relented : ) But I definitely do that thing where I don’t put something in immediately if I can reuse it. Especially water glasses, sometimes plates and such. I feel you. :)

  106. Portia says

    Oh, and rq, I’m not meaning to brush off your advice. I’m internalizing it and considering it, and I appreciate your thoughts. I see what you mean about him pushing his luck and the potential stress of having to be “all-business” all the time when he may not respect that boundary. More to think about. Good thing I have a low-key day today.

    Now to make some eggs.

  107. says

    rq

    I am apparently ideologically opposed to using the dishwasher (that is, the one that is not Husband… ;) we inherited one with the house) – no one has accused me of this, but I really don’t like using that machine purely because of the (apparent) life-style I believe it encourages.

    You mean the one where I might get a few minutes of free time?
    As others have said, they use less water and energy than hand-washing, especially if you give individual items “a quick rinse”.
    Doing the dishes to discourage using a clean glass more often doesn’t make any more sense than washing the clothes by hand because it discourages putting on a fresh undie every day.

  108. Portia says

    And now I see Crip Dyke’s post about dishwashers. Interesting and oddly liberating to know it’s more efficient to use the machine. Awesomesauce.

  109. rq says

    Crip Dyke
    Thanks for that post, and yes, it’s the econo-environmental argument that’s going to get me here. I’ll try to get used to it. ;)
    And you’re right, about it being made already, plus we don’t need to put in the initial expense of buying it.

    Giliell
    See, that’s why I consider it an irrational dislike of the washer – it provides me with more free time, so I should love it. Yet I don’t.
    But I think it’s my dad speaking out, he’s the If it’s not done manually, it ain’t done at all! type. I mean, he married my mum in the early 80’s and thought she should do laundry by hand, because his mother always did it that way (and who, I might add, was ecstatic the day granddad bought her a washing machine!), and so there shouldn’t be a problem doing it that way forever.
    I’m going to make friends with the dishwasher.

    Portia
    No worries, I figure you have enough to think about and I’m not assuming you’re brushing it off. Sometimes I just miss comments too, and yeah, I don’t always expect a direct reply to everything I say. :)
    And yes, Crip Dyke’s post was oddly liberating. Emancipation at work! hahaha

    Tony
    To be honest, I read the farewell post, but I couldn’t get through it all, because it felt pretty… uninspired, and, to be honest, just plain boring. *shrug* With a few comments about FtB that I didn’t particularly care for, and I think unnecessary harping on the whole hivemind/PZ will get you! aspect of things. But this is only my opinion.
    (PS I’d blog there just for the Oreos. I miss those cookies this much, and no, they don’t even have a decent imitation here.)

  110. catsto says

    long time lurker, first time posting

    going off track here but am looking for a long ago post about ALEC and how someone found an internal memo or pamphlet which was scanned for the post. I believe I saw the post in PZ’ blog. Of all of the posts I’ve saved, thought I saved that one as well. Apparently I didn’t otherwise I wouldn’t be asking…
    Did try searching. Any other suggestions on how to search for a post?

  111. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Now to make some eggs.

    When my kids ask, “Will you make me breakfast?” I snatch them, push up their pajama tops, and nom on their belly buttons.

    At first this was disconcerting and they would giggle half the time, but the other half say, “Stop!” Then they learned to ask, “Will you make breakfast for me, please?” Now, they get sly smiles and say, “Will you make me breakfast?” when we’re snuggling after they have already eaten.

    Sprogs. I like sprogs.

  112. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @catsto

    ALEC – if you mean the American Legislative Exchange Council – has been on FTB quite often, usually but not at all exclusively on Dispatches [Ed Brayton's blog].

    I’m not sure what you’re looking for or how to narrow it down, but you could go to ALEC Exposed and see if you can find your topic there. Then, with more precise language, you might have better luck here.

  113. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Well, crispy crackers!

    I forgot to welcome you, catsto, and also to qualify that last part. You might search here *if* you need the blog post and not just the document. But ALEC exposed probably has everything you could want.

  114. Portia says

    That’s really cute, Crip Dyke.

    How old are your sprogs?

    Your story reminds me of one I was going to tell about my 3 year old niece and nephew. He was at my mom’s for a day before her parents came to visit too. He had been put down for a rest with his sippy cup full of water. When she arrived, she wanted to find him, so we went upstairs knowing he would be awake. But he was balancing on his toes on the edge of the bed, with a concerned face. He said “I made a mess when I opened my cup.” He was soaked in water and distraught and distracted and a little upset. She was all revved up about being there and seeing people, so she sort of didn’t know what to do when he wasn’t in as happy a place. She put on a concerned face and reached out her hand and sort of brushed her fingertips on his arm in a compassionate pat-pat kind of way. She usually hugs everyone as a greeting, so I said, “If you want to know if he wants a hug, you can ask him.” She said “Would you like to hug me?” He said, “I would.” and put his arms around her neck and she put hers around his waist and I just melted.

  115. says

    Piercing the secrecy of offshore tax havens — got a theme going this morning. It’s all about the money. Money all the time. And now I’d better finish my own tax forms so that I can pay almost twice the percentage of my income in taxes as Mitt Romney pays.

    Excerpt from the Washington Post article, linked above:

    A New York hedge fund manager allegedly swindles $12 million from a prominent Baltimore family. An Indiana couple is accused of bilking hundreds of customers by charging for free trials of cosmetic products. A financial manager in Texas promises 23-percent returns but absconds with $33.5 million of his investors’ money in a classic Ponzi scheme.

    All three cases have one thing in common: money that ended up in offshore accounts and trusts set up in tax havens around the world.

    The existence of the trusts surfaced during a joint examination of the offshore world by The Washington Post and the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, a D.C-based nonprofit news organization. ICIJ obtained 2.5 million records of more than 120,000 companies and trusts created by two offshore companies, Commonwealth Trust Ltd. (CTL) in the British Virgin Islands and Portcullis TrustNet, which operates mostly in Asia and the Cook Islands, a South Pacific nation. The records were obtained by Gerard Ryle, ICIJ’s director, as a result of an investigation he conducted in Australia.

    Many people use the offshore world for legitimate purposes, for legal tax shelters or to smooth the way for international trade. Overseas havens vaulted into public consciousness last year with stories about Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney’s accounts in the Cayman Islands. Recent coverage of the Cyprus banking crisis has thrust the issue back into the spotlight….

  116. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @portia

    4 & 8. The 4 to turn 5 in June.

  117. says

    rq

    Is there any way to help?

    I really have no idea. If anybody on here knows anything about free therapy resources in PDX, or has advice on getting SSDI claims through as fast as possible, I’d love to hear about them, because I just don’t know what to do.

  118. rq says

    Crip Dyke
    Your sprogs sound absolutely adorable. :)

    Giliell waaaay back @112
    re: this:

    Yeah, I’m torn on that one. French is an official language, a nod to Quebec and the rest of the francophone population, but it is possible for a child in Quebec to grow up and not learn English and it happens. This puts them at a disadvantage, I believe. So, official Inuktitut, sure, but not if it results in easy isolation, if you see what I mean.

    While I generally agree with your answer there
    (

    Yeah, because why should I have to deal with any other language? I already speak English and so should you!

    ), I have to add that, while Canada is officially a bilingual country, lingualism (?) is determined on a provincial basis – so, Quebec has 1 official language (French), Manitoba and New Brunswick have two, other provinces have only English, and Nunavut now has 3. Children growing up in Quebec often learn only the one language (French), which limits their options to study elsewhere in Canada, even though they are citizens (with all privileges that implies). I think dave was pointing to this issue, rather than the pressing need for all Quebecers to learn English – personally, I think it would be awesome if all provinces had at least the two official languages, with a third (or more) First Nations one depending on location and local peoples. Anyway, that’s how I read that comment. Sorry for getting to it so late.

  119. Portia says

    Fun fun ages, Crip Dyke : ) Of course, all the ages have their fun if you’re a sprog-enjoyer. (I’m a selective sprog-enjoyer, myself.) I feel like there’s a less creepy way of saying it than that but I can’t think of one. ^___^ You get my meaning.

    Forgot to offer *hugs* and *tea* to Dalillama. I’m so sorry it’s so awfully rough right now.

    I just did the first step of the Couch to 5K program. Handy dandy app told me when to run and walk. And congratulated me at the end, very motivational : ) I have always always had a hate-hate relationship with running but…I didn’t die. And I didn’t even hate it! I feel great.

    (carlie- I even managed to abandon my “people are watching me exercise” anxiety!)

  120. Parrowing says

    I so wish I had a dishwasher. Since I’m still having trouble standing/walking, it’s been up to Hubster to get the dishes done for the last two weeks. Even just having a sink I could reach from a seated position would be nice.

    *

    Portia:

    I did the Couch to 5K last year. I was skeptical I could handle it but I managed, and I am a slooooooow runner. I doubt I ran anywhere near a 5K because I was jogging, but I realized that I could jog for 35 minutes without stopping, so I’m proud enough of that. I didn’t get over the people watching me exercise thing, though. I just jogged around my kitchen and living room :D. Good luck!

    *

    FossilFishy:

    Thanks, and I am in no hurry. I need to have time to panic and then feel better, you see.

    *

    I have no relevant knowledge, but lots and lots of hugs for Dalillama.

  121. Portia says

    Thanks, Parrowing : )
    I am slow, too. Like reallllly slow. But I took a friend’s advice and just took it easy on myself. 35 minutes straight is really impressive to me! I have an old knee injury that was bothering me by the end. I actually walked up the hill to my house backwards because my knee didn’t hurt that way : ) I will wear my brace next time.

  122. says

    rq
    Just tell your inner dad to STFU and enjoy the serious comfort of a dishwasher ;)
    +++

    Children growing up in Quebec often learn only the one language (French), which limits their options to study elsewhere in Canada, even though they are citizens (with all privileges that implies).

    See, that’s where I have a problem: The implication and the actual reality that there’s no problem with knowing only one language as long as it’s English. There’s a serious English native speaker privilege in this world (while it is much smaller than many other privileges, I think it will become more and more important). The demand is that you have to do it our way or you have to fail. That is the same shit privileged people pull everywhere. It is the same schtick that is pulled with imigrants, hidden behind concern for the children whose options will be oh so limited if they don’t assimilate themselves fast enough.
    And really, bringing this up a a concern when the point in case was First Nations languages is seriously troublesome and shows exactly where the problem lies if you look at the history and see how whites tried to eradicate those people by eradicating their languages.

    Crip Dyke
    I drive my kids nuts by going “what?” “eh” “what did you say?” if I get a “WATER!” instead of “could you give me some water, please?”
    And then there are phrases they know will be answered by tickling!!! So, whenever they utter them I take it as enthusiastic consent for a round of tickling.

  123. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Giliell

    I use that technique, too. In the car, they’re always saying, “Here!” with a particularly sharp end to the vocaliztion – it’s sharp exhale like a really brief kiai.

    What it means is, “I would like to hand this food-related thing to you b/c even though there’s plenty of room back here, I am in the habit of passing my food dishes and waste to the front of the car from when I was 3 and couldn’t be trusted not to turn syrup-coated tupperware upside-down. Would you mind taking it from my hand, please?”

    yeah. There are some things that develop before a step-parent shows up for rather natural reasons – Ms CripDyke being a single mom and having an old brain injury means she wanted to limit distractions and didn’t want to fight over language while driving – that the step can more easily see as problematic b/c of not being there when this slowly became habitual/naturalized.

    So now I’m step-mom-on-a-mission to get the kids to actually ask for what they want. I’m always saying, “What? Eh?” in the car.

    Although it might be a little extra difficult for them to get the message since I have a **very slight** hearing loss – but enough of one that with road & traffic noise I can often here *that* they are talking but not what they are saying. So they think I really didn’t hear them, and it takes 8 times before they finally ask, “May you please take this?”

    It can be tedious, but if I’m in the right mood, it can also be amusing. And, y’know, mission.

    And then there are phrases they know will be answered by tickling!!!

    Yeah. I do the same. We have a game deriving from the book Tasty Baby Belly Buttons. Green onis are attracted to the cries of grumpy/sad/angry children. Red onis are attracted to happy noises. Both target little children for belly-button eating. Now if sprogs are non-compliant, I can sometimes (only sometimes, drat it) quick change my shirt to something green and make a few ponderous stomps in their direction. Squeals and fleeing ensue. Although this also delays desired behavior, it transforms the mood and we get back to the intended behavior much more quickly… and have fun instead of a fight.

    Then when things are going well, littlest sprog will often call out when an adult is wearing red and start a belly-button chase where she attempts to adopt her grumpiest expression as soon as she’s caught. Then the red oni has to go away all disappointed.

    Not long after, she started declaring herself to be whatever color oni her shirt happened to be, and then would do whatever she felt she wanted and declared that the normal behavior of said onis. Purple onis now hug, black onis love, yellow onis, tickle one under the chin, etc.

    It is notable that I do not have any yellow clothing that would allow me to tickle, yet a certain someone has several pieces of yellow clothing.

    Sprogs = cunning little creatures.

  124. says

    Crip Dyke

    It is notable that I do not have any yellow clothing that would allow me to tickle, yet a certain someone has several pieces of yellow clothing.

    I would so lose. Yellow is one of #1’s “best colours in the world”.
    She has, OTOH, a whole bunch of imaginary friends to blame.
    Though I should notice that “Ei”, the horribly misbehaving squirrel recently moved away “because the other squirrels didn’t want him to be the king of squirrels anymore”. So now it’s only “jumping squirrel” who’s merely clumsy.
    And since we’re swapping kids stories:
    Today, we were at my in laws as usually on Sundays. I’d gotten the kids some scissors for there because there were no kiddy scissors there. After a while the little one went to her grandma, having a blanket wrapped around her belly. Then she let grandma into the secret, probably hoping that she might magic the big fat holes in the trousers away…
    It will be a while till she gets the scissors again…
    With #1 the experience of having to throw away her tights was enough to teach her the lesson. I hope with the little one it works as well. After all it was her favourite pairs…

  125. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Nate, did you see my previous? Way up @35?

  126. rq says

    Giliell
    Hmm, I see your point with the First Nations language. Personally, I don’t see how adding that one as an official language, and I think it’s a much-needed affirmation of their existence and right to be recognized as actual people and not second-class citizens.
    I’m also in agreement with you about the privilege-because-English point. It just doesn’t work that way, since (for example) higher education isn’t always offered in both languages. BUT Quebec has fantastic universities of its own, so they’re not limited by education.
    That being said, if applying for a (federal) government job anywhere in Canada, you have to know French as well.
    Umm… I may have lost my point here, somewhere amongst my own English-language privilege. I think what I”m trying to say is that I get the point that was attempted, but I don’t think it applies in this case. (Frankly, I don’t know how the First Nations can be even more isolated than they already are. I hope the official-language status gives them some official recognition.)

  127. rq says

    ck
    THAT’S WHERE THAT LIST WAS FROM!!! I knew I recognized it, but I didn’t have time to query my siblings. Gah! Memories! “But wait, there’s more!” etc.
    Heh…

    +++

    re: kids and politeness
    Seems the ‘hearing loss’ in parents, used to induce politeness in sprogs of various ages, is a cross-cultural thing…

  128. says

    Esteleth @ #166

    Nate, did you see my previous? Way up @35?

    Did now…

    Heh…

    By “the Googles”, you mean gmail, right?

    Melody and Steven (two of the organizers) are contacting the hotel on Monday to find out what’s going on… they say the rooms *haven’t* sold out, and don’t know why I’m being told (both online and over the phone) that they have…

  129. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Gmail, yes. :D :D

    For the record, I found one room at $95 a night (bit of a hike, also looks a bit sketchy), and another for $200 (on the Metro, looks decent).

  130. Menyambal --- son of a son of a bachelor says

    Parrowing, regarding your desire for a kitchen sink that can be reached from a sitting position …

    I sit on a stool that’s about two feet tall (that’s higher than a chair, but lower than standing), with my knees in the opened cupboards under the sink, and it works a treat. It is a happy medium between my back troubles and my sitting troubles, and places me just right for the sink. I found a folding stool that stashes in a corner, with a padded seat, but an old kitchen stool is literally made for the job.

  131. says

    rq
    I won’t argue about the situation in Canada specifically (getting an official status means all and nothing. Without language planning and support it means shit except the token), but it’s the general argument I find highly problematic. Because dave didn’t mention kids outside of Quebec who only learn English. Nah, those kids are fine. It’s actually a big problem. You have eminent linguists arguing that duh, no problem, just teach kids English early! While I’m totally not against teaching kids a second language early, the prolem is that
    A) You’ll still always only ever be a deficient learner. (no variation and innovation for you. We don’t care that this special characteristic is also found in 38 native speaker varieties and fully accepted from them. You’re just plain wrong! Also, language teaching jobs only for native speakers. Yes, we consider a highschool-dropout to be more qualified than a college graduate in that matter)
    B) It requires everybody else to invest serious time, money and resources and gives native speakers a fair headstart. And then they shake their heads and laugh at the non-native speaker and say that they just should have learned more.

  132. pseudonymus says

    ck

    To you, the laurels of victory, for the triumph of recognising a fine game series. May you long rule in the symbolic principality you’ve hereby acquired!

    rq

    You, I name the heir apparent.

  133. says

    If a man can’t find a woman that suits him (i.e. obeys him), should he just raise one up according to his specifications? The same man who was a champion for the abolition of slavery saw nothing wrong in trying just such a scheme. Talk about grooming and manipulating!

    … Throughout history, men convinced that women exist solely to serve their needs have been flummoxed to discover that women see things otherwise. Day [Thomas Day], however, believed that he had reason and Rousseau on his side. If he could not find an already-grown woman who possessed every quality he required in a spouse, why not make one to order? In 1769, he visited a foundling home and, pretending to be seeking maidservant apprentices for a married friend, secured two girls, aged 12 and 11. His aim: educating and training them to meet his precise specifications in a wife, then marrying the one who best suited him. He even renamed his experimental subjects: Sabrina and Lucretia. Within a year, however, Lucretia had been discarded as “invincibly stupid.”…

    http://www.salon.com/2013/04/07/how_to_create_the_perfect_wife/

  134. says

    Where is the privilege in politely requiring immigrants to have a reasonable level of fluency* in English?

    I mean, if I were moving to, say, Japan, it would be quite rude of me to go there and then expect people to cater to me by speaking English. I should, of course, invest the time and money in learning Japanese and gaining some fluency in the language before picking up and moving there.

    Likewise, it is rude of immigrants, whether they’re from Russia, Mexico, or fucking MARS, to NOT learn English before coming to America. To come here with little to no understanding of the language, and then expect to be catered to in your home language is just plain RUDE.
    &nbsp
    &nbsp
    &nbsp
    &nbsp
    * By which I mean, they should have enough proficiency to conduct business transactions and get through daily life.

  135. ck says

    NateHevens wrote:

    (Never heard of Secret of Monkey Island)

    I guess it’s getting to be a pretty old game at this point (released 1990). I’ve always enjoyed it, though. It was a humorous adventure game about a pirate wannabe named Guybrush Threepwood and his encounters with the undead pirate captain LeChuck. Then again, I guess I enjoyed most of Lucasart’s games from the time. Maniac Mansion, Day of the Tentacle, and even Full Throttle were enjoyable games (and often quite funny).

  136. says

    Heddle is now launching personal attacks.

    Apparently I’m a “liar” for pointing out that his disgusting “defense” of the rapey professor enables and encourages rape. You know, never mind that a survivor might reasonably take issue with the “thought experiment”, no, I’m a “liar”.

    WMD Kitty– you are probably the most vile, heinous liar I ever encountered on the internet. You are truly repulsive for putting such horrible false words in anyone’s mouth. You are beneath contempt. You are batshit crazy.

    Oh, and he coupled it with ableist slurs.

    What a fucking jackass.

  137. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Caine: Thanks! I just assumed that, in view of the general ambience in certain threads, hereabouts, and the tendency of asswipes to take things off the road and into peoples’ personal blogs, that you’d had to shut down the comments for a while; and I would certainly not blame you a bit.
    *zipping over to leave a comment*

    Welcome in, Funny Diva! Welcome in, pseudonymous!
    Horses?
    Peas?

    Why do the nations so furiously rage together, and why do the people imagine a vain thing?

    Indeed! And why do fools fall in love?
     
    I mean, it’s not like they’re a Critically Endangered Species, or anything.

    I’m sorry, but that just calls to mind images of a winged, be – haloed phallus descending from heaven to deliver the good news to Mary. “But now it is great joy that I announce, that you shall give birth to the Christ.”

    *briefly stunned by the surreal brilliance of the visual*
    This‘ll be why I’m laughing my ass off, Come Christmas.
    *snicker*

    Now who’s got good movie suggestions, specifically not gory/ very violent ones?

    Galaxy Quest.

    FossilFishy: Glad to hear that your local brushfire season is over.
    California and Texas have yet to catch fire this year, in accordance with Tradition; ‘course, it’s early days, yet.

    And a welcome in for yazikus, if I missed you before. The ‘nym looks slightly familiar; but then, I first read it as ‘yakuzas’, which tossed me right into that brief, bright time when I thought that our purchase of Oriental Adventures would not be all for naught.
    I still have the (unused) character sheets.
    *sigh*
    -

  138. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls says

    Woot! Down to three more mortgage payments on the primary mortgage. Ah, the smell of extra money to pay off the medical/dental account.

  139. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    rogers, I believe you want the Thunderdome.
     
    Which reminds me—did proudchristian ever come back and answer questions?

    billygutter, welcome in!

    rogers the bulls

    :)

    Dalillama: *hugepileofhugs*
    I wish I could offer some sort of useful suggestions.
    :(

    visit Lake Baikal

    Lovely! But it looks ‘way cold.

    Speaking of Libertarians.

    *whining*
    Must we?
    *sigh*

    Welcome in, catsto!

    *scritches* for WMDKitty. There are reasons why Heddle has no good reputation, hereabouts.
    -

  140. says

    Oh, fuck me sideways.

    Now Michael Heath is piling on me.

    In fact it’s a character failure against those who have actually suffered to have another lie in reference to abuse. And yes, I’m skeptical you’ve suffered abuse precisely because of your dishonesty against me; you’ve proven your dishonesty.

    Neither of these fucksticks can grasp the concept of a trigger, and Michael Heath went straight to “bitchez be lying”.

    Yes, because it’s a “lie” to paraphrase something. It’s a “lie” to point out that something is triggering. It’s a “lie” if you call out a male commenter on his bullshit…

    I cannot believe he had the nerve to straight up say I lied about being abused! Why the fuck would I lie about that? Does he think I enjoyed it?

  141. Portia says

    Glad to hear that your local brushfire season is over.

    Our brush fires are like the David to the Goliath of the fires that FossilFishy was dealing with, but it seems like the season is in full swing here. Two calls for them today. Luckily it’s going to rain the rest of the week…

    On a slightly related note, is there a possible explanation for why I cringe and wince when watching shows like Chicago Fire and the injuries they respond to, and the way I have no such reaction when I’m faced with actual injuries that I’m supposed to help treat? Maybe it’s the adrenaline or something.

  142. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Nonono, WMDKitty—it’s that he thinks you’re lying about it to get attention!
     
    You know how we wimmins are always frantically to attract Teh Menz attentions! No room for anything else in our fluffy-pink wimmins brainz.
     
    Wellll…except for shoes. And clothes. And jewelry. And steelin’ spermz for the child support.
    -

  143. Portia says

    Glad to hear that your local brushfire season is over.

    Our brush fires are like the David to the Goliath of the fires that FossilFishy was dealing with, but it seems like the season is in full swing here. Two calls for them today. Luckily it’s going to rain the rest of the week…

    On a slightly related note, is there a possible explanation for why I cringe and wince when watching shows like Chicago Fire and the injuries they respond to, and the way I have no such reaction when I’m faced with actual injuries that I’m supposed to help treat? Maybe it’s the adrenaline or something. Or maybe the gruesomeness is just exponentially greater on tv.

    WMDKitty
    So sorry you’re being attacked like that.
    Despicable.

  144. says

    WMDkitty
    Pretty much the problem here is that Michale Heath is, to be charitable, a libertarian scumbag who wouldn’t recognize intellectual honesty if it bit him on the ass.

  145. Portia says

    Damnit damnit damnit. Here I am, enjoying my tv show, and then all of a sudden Bam…they gotta start a bitchez lie storyline. Fucking hell.

    Now I’m grumpy.

  146. says

    I’m just going to say that I never ceased to be surprised by the magic of Indian. Whenever anything at all to do with Indians* comes up, it magically becomes all about white people. You’d think we were unicorns farting rainbows, with that sort of magic.
     
    *Oh yeah, pardon, First Nation People and Native American People and all that jazz. Wačhíŋtȟuŋ šni. Bah.

  147. chigau (unless...) says

    There was a Canadian TV show in the 90s in which one of the main characters was an Indian (ancestors were from India) who always wanted to be an Indian (First Nations).
    He worked as a ranch-hand.

  148. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    I just found out something interesting – April 4th is World Rat Day. It’s a good thing the Rattitude post that day was about cake. :D

    4/04? Are they good at hiding? ^.^

  149. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Heddle is now launching personal attacks.

    …doesn’t Ed EVER take out the trash?

  150. thunk, warm air advection says

    well hia.

    Yes. personal issues and surrounded by family/school bigots, and other things that I’d probably face retribution for publically discussing. Let’s just say that I’m a basket case.

    One thing that’s particularly irking me is being gendered male. all the time. But that’s completely understandable, as I look perfectly male. But I don’t want to. But I never muster enough courage or motivation to do anything to change that. So the status quo remains. and I feel horrible about that.

    *as in I haven’t gotten a hair trim for over a year, because I keep arguing with my family over wanting a more feminine hairstyle. and everything gets stalled.

  151. Pteryxx says

    *offers Caine and WMDKitty and thunk safe(ish*) anklehugs*

    (*pouncing optional)

    thunk: if it helps, you could change it here. This crowd will respect your pronouns. Wish I knew a safe space to refer you.

  152. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Thunk –

    Body relationships can be hard enough, when your body relationship affects your family relationships (and vice versa) it can be torture.

    I and many others are sending you good thoughts.

  153. rq says

    (several rounds of *hugs&scritches* to start the day off)

    Giliell
    I don’t think I understood your point.
    Is your point (a) saying that children who learn English early do not learn to speak it as well, and is your point (b) saying that it’s tedious and time-consuming for everyone around them? (I think I’m a bit confused with your use of ‘native’ here, by which I’m assuming you mean a native-speaker-of-English, but in light of the article that started this conversation, it’s confusing me.)
    For the record, my first language is not English, it’s Latvian, but for growing up in an English environment, it’s comparatively good Latvian, because my parents forbade us to speak English in the home – is that the kind of thing you mean by effort on the part of others in order to teach children the second language at a sufficient level?

    Portia
    re: injuries at work and injuries on TV
    I think it’s the same thing I experience with crime scenes: I have a Work mindset when going to one and can handle almost any amount of smell and/or gore, but when watching on TV, I’m on Entertainment mindset, and it’s just disgusting. Ooh my looking at photos of my bachelor’s thesis now makes me retch, but while I was ‘in the moment’, it was no problem at all.
    Good luck with the forest fires!

  154. says

    Impending Unemployment Update-

    I think things may have stabilized. After the last shoe dropped and they banned the rest of my teaching style and have been giving me shit-all for hours while giving everyone else full weeks, there’s been little other movement. Big boss even had a conversation like back in the old days with me that was actually relaxed and not weird. And there was a big chance to burn me during a recent performance review where they could have claimed that my teaching took a big drop in quality in order to support a theory that the change in how I’ve been treated is because I legitimately started sucking, and instead they gave an honest positive review that actually praised me for those few pieces of good teaching methodology I could still get away with from before I was asked to suck.

    It’s getting close to the end of the year, so maybe they’ll just rest here with something that makes me miserable and where I’m working the bare minimum they can throw at me and hope I quit and let me ride out the rest of the season (beginning of June) and just “conveniently” not hire me back next season.

    It’s not “good” by any stretch of the imagination, but if I’ve managed to scare them out of making things dramatically worse in the short-term (by letting them know that I’m aware that they are discriminating against me for being trans*), then yay for small victories!

    Speaking of victories.

    Actual larger victory. I officially came out to my uncle today who’s been the family member I’ve been hanging out the most lately with of late (because of location). It was part of explaining the discrimination I’ve been facing at work and asking for some financial help to offset the dicking around on hours I’ve been getting. And yay! He’s supportive of me being trans* and said that “anything that makes you happy” he’ll support and he didn’t freak out at all. Not sure he fully understands what he’s supporting, but hey, neither do my parents, so as along as he isn’t freaking out, it’s all good.

    Dalillama @118

    I’m filled with so much rage and helplessness right now, but none of my anger is directed at D or L, but at the worthless fuckers who chronically sabotage every effort to have a functional fucking health care system in this country that would have gotten them both the help the fucking need. I just don’t know what to do, and I’m constantly pissed off that there’s no source of help, at all.

    I’m right there with you. It’s fucking obscene that we continue to have such a dysfunctional health care system in this country, and especially such completely non-existent mental health resources in this country. I know that you can try to apply for mental disability for D, especially if she’s at the near hospitalization and not being able to eat phase, but not sure how many expensive hoops you’ll have to jump through to “prove” it to the stuffed shirts.

    I know having gone through some bad phases with depression and babysitting my partner through some of her own that it’s really rough on partners and other sources of support. Here’s hoping that a corner can be found up ahead. In the meantime, maybe try giving D this link. It helped me when I was on the raggedy edge and it might help her. This might help L as well.

    WMDKitty @182

    Neither of these fucksticks can grasp the concept of a trigger, and Michael Heath went straight to “bitchez be lying”.
    Yes, because it’s a “lie” to paraphrase something. It’s a “lie” to point out that something is triggering. It’s a “lie” if you call out a male commenter on his bullshit…
    I cannot believe he had the nerve to straight up say I lied about being abused! Why the fuck would I lie about that? Does he think I enjoyed it?

    Grrrrrrrrrrr.

    That’s just…. appalling level behavior. You don’t fucking do that! I still remember when some asshole tried to play that game over my rape and it’s just something you don’t do to a survivor. Where is this fuckery taking place? Should I jump in and give a very angry piece of my mind?

    *Rage filled condolences*

    Portia @187

    Damnit damnit damnit. Here I am, enjoying my tv show, and then all of a sudden Bam…they gotta start a bitchez lie storyline. Fucking hell.
    Now I’m grumpy.

    Those seem to pop up WAY too frequently in mass media culture. Sorry to have that happen on a TV show you like. *Hugs*

    thunk @193

    Yes. personal issues and surrounded by family/school bigots, and other things that I’d probably face retribution for publically discussing. Let’s just say that I’m a basket case.

    Fucking discrimination! You’d think they’d learn to just let people be and not fucking exasperate what is already a painful social and emotional reality with active bigotry. Here’s hoping you can extricate yourself and quickly too!

    And also, you might think about dropping a note to the Transgender Law Center. They might not be able to help you, but they guarantee at least a response with some advice and resources you can use and can be a source of information and emotional support if you are lacking that at the moment.

    If you want to privately bitch about specific events with someone who promises to listen and tell no one so you’re protected from public retribution, you can also email me at lesbianpulpfictionpodcast@gmail.com (it’s my non-name email addy)

    One thing that’s particularly irking me is being gendered male. all the time.

    Fuck do I know how that feels. As a very masculine-bodied transwoman it is apparently very hard for people to get my gender right, even when I directly tell them, even when I am in exceedingly feminine clothing.

    I can’t do anything to help with that (though believe me if I could punch the world into being better on that for transpeople everwhere, I would), but I can promise you that that eventually will stop. Getting on hormones will help a lot. Like A LOT. Like a lot more than you’d expect. It takes a while to really believe, but then suddenly people are actually noticing your breasts, your hair is thinner, and people are actually referring to you more as ma’am. Laser hair removal and and orchidectomy will also help if you plan on going those routes. You probably already know all that, but it’s worth remembering for those of us slogging through the “in-between” phases. And if you’re worried about having to go through the massive hoops for the hormones… I didn’t tell you this, but… this is a link on the internet. Though check with another trans* person before doing any browsing to learn what dosage is safe… of the Estrofem and Spirotone… for example. Especially for the latter as it can cause liver damage if you overdose or aren’t careful with regards to your Potassium intake (you actually need to reduce Potassium and increase Sodium when taking it). This is of course purely hypothetical as self-medicating is wrong, especially when the expensive hoops the system forces trans* people to jump through for something really important are complete and utter bullshit.

    But that’s completely understandable, as I look perfectly male. But I don’t want to. But I never muster enough courage or motivation to do anything to change that. So the status quo remains. and I feel horrible about that.

    It’s a rough place to be. I can at least let you know that there’s no shame in being scared. I was too when I was just starting to acknowledge myself. Just start with what you feel comfortable with, being out in spaces you can be out, trying outfits in spaces where you have friends to back you up until you get your confidence up. Little steps that can add up to being fully out and fully embracing the look you want.

    *as in I haven’t gotten a hair trim for over a year, because I keep arguing with my family over wanting a more feminine hairstyle. and everything gets stalled.

    Fuck, I remember being there. Back when I assumed I was male, I always struggled with my parents about getting a longer haircut. The freedom to have longer hair when I entered college was a big relief. Now it’s done to the small of my back.

    I wish you good luck on acquiring yourself a more feminine hairstyle. If you don’t mind being sneaky and you have some access to some form of transportation, you might think about getting a lift to a hair cutting place of your choice and then letting your family just sort of deal with the aftermath.

    Overall, good luck and we’ll always be a sympathetic shoulder to vent with.

  155. The Mellow Monkey says

    Fuck fuck fuck. I’ve been woken up by some sort of throbbing/stabbing/itching pain in my ear. It doesn’t feel like referred pain from TMJ trouble this time, as it’s all in the skin around my ear canal and feels as though that and some of the tragus is swollen, but it’s too painful to touch much and be sure and I don’t want to wake somebody up to make them look in my ear.

    It’s honestly probably about an eight in pain. On par with kidney stones. In the flesh of my ear.

    All I can think is the combination of eczema/ear buds irritated the skin enough to cause the most painful external ear infection I’ve ever had. Jesus fuck.

  156. rq says

    The Mellow Monkey
    Insect/arachnoid bite…? :/
    I hope you find some relief soon – *non-eczema-irritating anti-inflammatory skin cream* via USB.

  157. Walton says

    [TRIGGER WARNING for descriptions of violence.]

    Yet another person dies as a result of Britain’s racist immigration laws. And no one in the British media is even talking about this. How many people have heard of Jackie Nanyonjo, or are aware that our government is brutalizing people for the crime of being foreign?

    Jackie Nanyonjo died in Uganda last Friday as a result of the injuries inflicted by the Home Office’s licenced thugs who deported her from Britain on 10th January. Jackie was a fighter for herself and for others: a lesbian who escaped from anti-gay persecution and a brutal forced marriage, and a member of the Movement for Justice. In Britain she had been able for the first time to live and love openly as a lesbian; she was much-loved by a wide circle of friends who kept in touch with her after she was deported and who miss her deeply. All of us who knew her, or who didn’t know her personally but are determined to end the regime of racism and anti-immigrant bigotry that is responsible for her death, will fight to win justice for Jackie.

    Jackie had been through the mental torture of the immigration and asylum system, with its arbitrary, subjective decisions and impossible demands to ‘prove that you are a lesbian’. UK Border Agency and an Asylum Tribunal had dismissed out-of-hand the ample evidence of friends and her partner that Jackie was a lesbian and rejected her claim for asylum. She was sent to the further mental torture of Yarl’s Wood women’s detention centre in November 2012 – a few weeks after detainees had shaken the power of the UKBA in an uprising of mass protest against brutality and injustice led by the Yarl’s Wood Movement for Justice group and Jackie had been part of a solidarity demonstration at the UKBA headquarters in Croydon. Jackie continued her fight in Yarl’s Wood. When the UKBA tried to deport her in December Jackie resisted bravely despite the brutality she suffered at the hands of the ‘escorts’ provided by the contractor, Reliance. She forced them to abandon the attempt and when she got back to Yarl’s Wood she lodged a complaint to the UKBA – a complaint the UKBA rejected.

    With all the limited avenues of Britain’s racist immigration laws closed to her and facing deportation to a country where it is a crime to be gay and where the political and religious leaders have whipped up a murderous anti-gay witch-hunt, Jackie’s only option was physical resistance. On 10th January, on Qatar Airways Flight QR76, Jackie fought bravely for her freedom with all the strength she could gather against four Reliance guards. She continued fighting when the guards drew curtains round their end of the plane to hide their crimes. She struggled for as long as she could until, beaten up, half strangled and bent double, she was overcome by the pain in her chest and neck and was unable to breathe.

    When Jackie arrived at Entebbe Airport the ‘escort’ party handed her over to the Ugandan authorities, who held her for many more hours without any medical attention. When family members finally met her, long after the flight had landed, Jackie was in terrible pain and vomiting blood; they rushed her to a clinic, but in a country with widespread poverty and limited medical facilities they were unable to get the medical attention Jackie needed. Since Jackie was in hiding as a known lesbian, protected by relatives, every trip to a doctor or hospital involved a risk to her life and to the safety of her family. They were condemned to watch the agonising decline of Jackie’s health and strength over the next two months.

    The Home Office and the UKBA are guilty of Jackie’s murder. They have licenced the brutality that Jackie suffered, even if they pretend ‘to look the other way’; they protect the thugs and the security companies if an asylum seekers’ death or injury becomes public knowledge. Their policies and decisions are responsible for Jackie’s death. The guards who brutalised Jackie should be in jail and Reliance should be condemned as an accessory to murder, along with Qatar Airways and the repressive Qatari Government that is so willing to do Britain’s dirty work – but the real guilt lies with the politicians and bureaucrats who run the Home Office and the UKBA, and ultimately with the Coalition Government. Jackie Nanyonjo was a victim of the immigrant bashing policies of Theresa May, the racist Home Secretary.

    This is why I believe that immigration controls need to end. No one should be detained, deported or deprived of civil rights because of where they were born.

  158. Walton says

    Where is the privilege in politely requiring immigrants to have a reasonable level of fluency* in English?

    I mean, if I were moving to, say, Japan, it would be quite rude of me to go there and then expect people to cater to me by speaking English. I should, of course, invest the time and money in learning Japanese and gaining some fluency in the language before picking up and moving there.

    It REALLY depends on the circumstances. I don’t think you can demand that a refugee fleeing from violence in somewhere like Somalia or Afghanistan, or someone coming from a situation of desperate poverty, must learn a foreign language before migrating. Not everyone has the luxury of “time and money”, or of access to educational opportunities.

  159. Portia says

    Cerberus
    I guess there’s a little to be happy about in your work news, so I’ll offer a tepid “Yay!” and *hugs* and renewed wishes for a better employment situation.
    Very cool that your uncle is so supportive, especially since he’s a big source of social interaction and financial help. Great all around.

    thunk
    Big hugs as desired. I’m so sorry you’re having a rough time. I know you’ve already said you prefer gender non-specific pronouns here, correct? Pteryxx is right, we’ll of course go with whatever makes you most comfortable. I hope your situation improves soon.

    rq
    you’re probably right. It’s a unique headspace to just do the job, and ya gotta suppress the gut reactions. Watching tv, you’re watching to have reactions, to get into it.

    I appreciate the firefighting good wishes. Though, I don’t want to give the wrong impression about the size of fires I’m fighting: “forest fire” would definitely be a misnomer. Out here on the prairie it’s someone’s scrap fire gone awry and then the whole field goes up. (like it did two hours ago, which is why I’m awake again. The call went out 20 minutes before a heavy rain started. Sigh. I had to say that brushfire season had started.) I’m going to try to sleep again now. See y’all in a few hours :)

  160. rq says

    Walton @205
    You’re right, of course – not everyone can take the time to learn the language before escaping to a new country.
    However, there is a certain type of person who, even after living for years in a country, and with opportunity to learn the local language for free, will still refuse to learn it (on some principle), and will complain about not getting service in their own language.

  161. opposablethumbs says

    Fuck, Mellow Monkey, that sounds bad. I have some idea what you mean, I think (last ear infection I had was ages ago and I still remember how incredibly painful it was until the nice out-of-hours emergency GP gave me antibiotics (as in, took one look and actually handed me the first dose so I didn’t have to wait until the chemist’s opened next morning)). How long until you can get it looked at and get some treatment?
    .
    Good for you, Cerberus, for making them realise they can’t get away with just forcing you out immediately. Still horrendous, but looks like you’ve succeeded in at least partially wrong-footing them. Does this at least give you a bit more time in which to look for something else?
    .
    Happy film rec: Wilby Wonderful (dir. and screenplay, Daniel MacIvor). If you haven’t seen it, see it! If you have, see it again! The acting is great, it’s funny, and don’t be put off by the image used on some sites – it is not a typical romcom (or any kind of romcom, really, though it is a (black) comedy and it does include romantic among other relationships going on …). See it see it see it!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilby_Wonderful
    .
    I had a whole thing about kids and language, but firefox crashed and … suffice it to say that even though I realise it’s in their on long-term interests to learn to express themselves well and clearly, insisting on their getting it right – however long it takes – when they’re right in the middle of struggling to say something important about why they’re so angry/upset/miserable is NOT my idea of a good approach. Yeah, this is a sauropod-sized bone of contention. :-(((((

  162. says

    Good morning
    MM
    If you have an 8 on pain, you’re perfectly justified to wake somebody, especially if that somebody has medical knowledge or could take you to somebody who has (I hope you can get treatment. I can’t remember whether you mentioned if you had health insurance or not).

    Cerberus
    *Hugs*
    Maybe they’re aware that fireing you might be difficult, but making you quit by yourself would be an elegant “solution” for them.

    WMD Kitty

    Where is the privilege in politely requiring immigrants to have a reasonable level of fluency* in English?

    A) You are aware that neither French speaking Canadians nor First Nations members are what you’d call “recent immigrants”? Especially in context with the latter that is a fucked up thing to say
    B) Do you have the self-awareness to realize that you’re typing this in English while you’re living over 10.000 km away from fucking England? Or is that one of those “oh it was wrong when we did it and took all the advantage back then, so let’s change the rules now so we can keep our advantage” thingies?
    C) You are aware that the USA has no fucking official language and you’re just arguing for “might makes right”?

    Apart from that, yeah, Heddle. “Liar” seems to be the only word he knows.

    rq

    Is your point (a) saying that children who learn English early do not learn to speak it as well, and is your point (b) saying that it’s tedious and time-consuming for everyone around them? (I think I’m a bit confused with your use of ‘native’ here, by which I’m assuming you mean a native-speaker-of-English, but in light of the article that started this conversation, it’s confusing me.)
    For the record, my first language is not English, it’s Latvian, but for growing up in an English environment, it’s comparatively good Latvian, because my parents forbade us to speak English in the home – is that the kind of thing you mean by effort on the part of others in order to teach children the second language at a sufficient level?

    Urgh, I think I mixed several levels of the discussion without making myself clear (that’s when you talk about an area of your expertise and just assume people can follow. Bad teaching that is)
    Your a & b refer to private situations within a family while my point was about societies.
    Raising kids bilingual is, of course, more time-consuming and exhausting in most cases than raising them monolingual, but it also requires that the family is more or less already bilingual. That’s why I pretty much failed. I’m the only person with some fluency in another language here, so 90% of all communication was in German anyway.
    But that’s something else than requiring a whole society to raise the kids as bilingual. I’m actually in favour of bilingual education. Learning another language* young is beneficial to brain development and further language learning. They never again learn that easily. But I’m also aware that this is a luxury, globally speaking. It is demanding that other nations invest twice as much in language teaching than English speaking countries so those kids are not disadvantaged (Won’t somebody think of the children?).
    And even when those people from all over the world learn English, and mind you, not for jobs in English-speaking countries or “international jobs”, but for ordinary jobs like being a biologist, or a technician, they still get seen as “deficient speakers” because, hey, while they got their PhD in biology they didn’t also get one in English, and an accent or a “foreign look” still gets them rated as less competent. In short, it is a means to keep the globally dominant group dominant.
    *There’s a distinction between second language, a language that has some official usage in the country, like English in India, and foreign language, like English in Germany. By “native speaker” I mean people whose first language is English. You would probably still count as “first language bilingual speaker”, at least as Inner Circle speaker.

  163. says

    rq

    However, there is a certain type of person who, even after living for years in a country, and with opportunity to learn the local language for free, will still refuse to learn it (on some principle), and will complain about not getting service in their own language.

    Are you aware that this is exactly a privilege English native speakers have in most of the world and that increases with the further spread of English?

    Walton
    Fuck those racists. Oh, pardon my Klatchian, how rude of me to call them racists. That’s totally impolite, of course. They are just people who support and enorce racist politics that demonstrably kill people.
    Still glad to see you. Are you still in the States or have you gone back to the UK?

  164. says

    Giliell

    Hmm… looks like you didn’t actually read what I said.

    I said, when one is immigrating from Country A into Country B, the polite and proper thing to do is acquire a working fluency in the local language.

    I’m not saying they have to be perfect or anything, just, hey, put in enough effort that you can get a job and manage daily interactions.

    If you can’t put in the effort prior to the move, that’s okay — just do it when you get here and get settled in.

    That’s really all I’m asking, and it has jack to do with English because it applies to everyone making an international move.

  165. says

    @WMDKitty
    Sorry about the crap going down in the Dispatches thread.
    *safehugs* / *soul chocolate* / cute kitty.

    heddle and Michael Heath are really toxic. Is there no Dispatches Dungeon?

  166. rq says

    (To be clear, my comment @208 was directed towards the off-topic of recent immigrants, not towards language issues with First Nations etc.)

    Giliell
    Now I see what you mean, thank you for clarifying!
    And yes, I agree, asking a country to invest twice as much in language-teaching is… difficult. I grew up in Ottawa, Canada’s capital, so by-default bilingual. I had all my schooling in two languages (English and French), and it is a hassle – both in educating enough teachers who can teach either/both languages in order to cover all subjects at all grade levels (some teachers did only French subjects, some did only English ones, some did a bit of both, either way you need a larger pool of language-capable potential teachers to have all bases covered for any given language). I have friends now who are becoming teachers, and some have difficulty finding a job because they don’t have French at an appropriate level, even in an ostensibly English-speaking environment. But that’s Canada.
    In other countries, where there is a local language and English is merely a language to communicate globally, the situation’s a bit differen. At the same time, we need a language (or a couple of languages) with which to actuallly do communicate globally (currently this is English, I bet there was Latin-privilege all around Europe back in the day), so I think some education in a different language is necessary.
    As for being seen as less-competent, I’m wondering if that’s applicable everywhere, or more in America/Canada/UK, where there’s a higher standard of ‘real’ English. Around Europe, I think people tend to disregard the accent more (in scientific circles), since everybody (or nearly everybody) has a non-English accent, and they get by on what my uncle calls Euro-speak, which is the European version of ‘real’ English, full of European language quirks in grammar and pronunciation, but everyone understands each other because that’s the way they all say it (and native speakers trying to correct ‘mistakes’ get shut down real fast!).
    Eldest is getting English lessons in his kindergarten already. They get a (non-native) speaker in to teach them the basics, mostly for communications purposes (you know, foods, likes/dislikes, the usual basic stuff). I don’t know how much emphasis there is on getting things right, but I like the fact that he seems to be understanding English movies and films a lot better (Middle Child is picking up the language at a casual yet impressive rate, too!).

    opposablethumbs
    I see what you mean about interrupting for correctness. From what I understand of language and children, it’s important to have them communicate, the grammatical corrections often come automatically later, once the languages themselves get settled in the brain. I have a friend who grew up trilingual – mother spoke French to the kids, dad spoke Latvian, and English with each other (but never to the kids). The key there was consistency (knowing how to communicate with whom), and probably letting her and her brother get languages/things mixed up every now and then.
    That being said, a lot of us Anglo-Latvians do mix our languages, and horribly, terribly, wrongly so, but… It’s awesome. ;) (Also we do this after knowing both languages, so it’s a conscious thing, rather than something we do from ignorance or lack of knowledge. I had a point here but I think it’s lost.)

    Anyhow, this is interesting; I have to go out for errands and daily fresh air for the youngers, but I’ll be back soon!

  167. says

    Giliell (Because this was obviously posted while I was composing my previous comment.)

    Are you aware that this is exactly a privilege English native speakers have in most of the world and that increases with the further spread of English?

    Are you aware that that’s why I applied the statement to all people? Because Americans tend to be the worst offenders in that regard, and I am well aware of it. Hence my stance of, “If I’m moving to Country X, I should learn the language of Country X.”

  168. Walton says

    Fuck those racists. Oh, pardon my Klatchian, how rude of me to call them racists. That’s totally impolite, of course. They are just people who support and enorce racist politics that demonstrably kill people.

    QFT. As the Yarl’s Wood Movement for Justice put it: “the entire immigration system is racist, homophobic, sexist and rotten to the core.” And it’s killing people.

    (Relatedly, I really appreciated this particular creative amendment to a Tory billboard. Courtesy of Yo, Is This Racist?)

    Still glad to see you. Are you still in the States or have you gone back to the UK?

    Oh, I’ve been back in the UK nearly a year now. I’m currently in the process of qualifying as a barrister (in the hope of practising immigration law), which is largely why I haven’t been around. Also struggling with mental health stuff.

  169. Maureen Brian says

    Yes, rq @ 208, the coastal areas of southern Spain are full of people who moved there from the UK 30, 40, 50 years ago and have never learned any Spanish at all.

    As death begins to reduce their numbers, they are presenting real problems for they cannot speak to lawyers about the late spouse’s estate, nor to the doctors about their own oncoming dementia, nor to the carers who are finally sent in when it is realised they cannot manage on their own. It’s fairly universal, this no need to learn to deal with “them” because there’ll always be enough of “us.”

    We’re having a celebration right now of the arrival and massive contribution of the Hugenots who arrived here in the seventeenth century, on the run from both religious and civil authorities in France. I’m damn sure every last one of them stepped off the boat totally fluent in English – not!

    As someone who lived for 40 years in inner city, multi-ethnic Lambeth I can tell you that a major problem has been the lack of good facilities for learning English – either it’s underfunded, or it’s not tailored to actual needs or you have to wait so long to get on a course that you’ve either found someone to speak for you in official settings or picked up one of the pidgins which you’d find in any UK city. And any city in the USA – perhaps someone should do a linguistic history of New York. That would be an interesting life’s work for someone.

  170. rq says

    Giliell
    And yes, I am aware that’s the English privilege rearing its head, which is why it is also respectful for English-speakers moving to a small country with its own local language (or, for that matter any country whose key language is not English) to actually learn that fucking language. For visiting, it’s nice to know how to say ‘hello’ and the like, but if you’re planning on living somewhere for a few years, it’s only natural (I think) that you should learn to communicate locally, instead of expecting everyone around you to cater to your language because it is currently the main language of global communication.
    (My issue specifically here, actually, is with a contingent of Russian-speakers in Latvia, who jsut refuse to recognize that they live in Latvia and not Russia, because of history and all that stuff – and while Latvia is officially unilingual, pretty much all services (even government ones) are available in Russian by default, all advertising is in two languages, and they still complain about discrimination because someone in a store greeted them in Latvian instead of Russian. But replace ‘English’ with ‘Russian’ for more or less any other place in the world, especially former English colonies.)

  171. Maureen Brian says

    rq,

    However annoying it may be and however much you want it resolved right now, what you just described to Giliell is a political problem and not one of individual linguistic idleness. For reasons of war, conquest, power politics, whatever, two populations end up in the same place.

    Sometimes one is out to dominate and assimilate the other, sometimes there is a de facto agreement to live separate lives. It happens all the time and if one population is or was once richer or more powerful it can take them some time to tune in to the new reality. As I say, it happens all the time.

    The British Isles have plenty of experience of this. Within living memory youngsters in Northern Ireland were being arrested for getting in the way of the police’s attempts at good order and discipline. On what basis? When asked their name they might honestly reply with a Gaelic name or insist that a name which the two communities shared was, in their case, spelled the Gaelic way. No small part of that 30 years of near-war was about the right to have your identity acknowledged – on both sides.

    In Latvia you haven’t just had an almighty upheaval in the power balance, you have two languages not closely related which operate in two different scripts. Be patient. It’s been going on in Ireland for 600 years and it’s not fully settled yet.

  172. says

    WMD Kitty
    You made your remark within a certain context. And you did make it as a member of a globally privileged group. The struggles faced by immigrants from poor countries are quite different from those faced by US Americans who go on living anywhere else in the world.

    rq

    My issue specifically here, actually, is with a contingent of Russian-speakers in Latvia, who jsut refuse to recognize that they live in Latvia and not Russia, because of history and all that stuff – and while Latvia is officially unilingual, pretty much all services (even government ones) are available in Russian by default, all advertising is in two languages, and they still complain about discrimination because someone in a store greeted them in Latvian instead of Russian.

    I can see the issue here, from the Russian-Latvians’s side. Language can become a very powerful tool to excercise power. I understand that, because of history, Russian-Latvians used to be more dominant and aren’t any more so. And now Latvian is used to put them in their place. Think about your greeting in terms of “war on Christmas” and people very much insisting on saying “Merry CHRISTmas”.
    And frankly, I’ve heard “this is Germany, we speak German, it’s not Turkey!” a few times too often to look kindly on those arguments.

    Maureen Brian

    As someone who lived for 40 years in inner city, multi-ethnic Lambeth I can tell you that a major problem has been the lack of good facilities for learning English – either it’s underfunded, or it’s not tailored to actual needs or you have to wait so long to get on a course that you’ve either found someone to speak for you in official settings or picked up one of the pidgins which you’d find in any UK city.

    This.
    There was this very low-barrier programm here aimed at Russian immigrant mothers, tailored at their needs and timetables (very hard to go to an evening class when your husband is a bit patriarchal minded or you’re a single mum). Got funding for 1 year, now it’ over.
    Oh, and then there was this campaign geared at immigrants, especcially those bad people who have been here for years without learning the language. Information about the classes in German only. Lots of finger-pointing at lazy immigrants who get classes for free and don’t go there.

  173. Walton says

    The struggles faced by immigrants from poor countries are quite different from those faced by US Americans who go on living anywhere else in the world.

    QFT. This is really what I was saying. If you are an asylum-seeker in Britain living on £36 a week, with no access to services and no right to work, and trying to support your children while living on the poverty line, learning English is not exactly an easy thing to do. I think it’s unreasonable to demand that all migrants should be able to speak the language of the host country. And that kind of demand really plays into the anti-immigrant narrative coming from the political Right.

    I agree that privileged ex-pats from wealthy countries should make the effort to learn the language, and I too am annoyed by affluent Brits and Americans who expect everyone in the world to speak English to them. But I think it’s problematic to say that all people have a responsibility to learn the language of the country they inhabit.

  174. carlie says

    I said, when one is immigrating from Country A into Country B, the polite and proper thing to do is acquire a working fluency in the local language.

    I’m not saying they have to be perfect or anything, just, hey, put in enough effort that you can get a job and manage daily interactions.

    I guess I’m not sure what you want the result of that to look like, or how you’d want that to be put into operation. I assume you don’t mean laws requiring the local language only, but more of a social norm? But then there’s not even a way to socially police it. When you see an immigrant who doesn’t speak the local language, you don’t know if they’ve been here for years or since last week. You don’t know if they have learning disabilities that have made it harder to learn, if they’ve had anyone who can help them learn the language, if they have enough money for a tv to get immersion in the language, if they’re working so many hours a day at manual labor that they’re too tired to try to learn anything when they get home at night. So from a practical standpoint, I don’t know how such social norms could be enforced without stepping all over people who are already the most stepped-on.

  175. Walton says

    What I really want is to convince someone at one of the major left-leaning news outlets – like The Guardian, or Alternet, or even here at FTB – to write about some of the awful things that have been happening in the British immigration system recently, including the death of Jackie Nanyonjo in January 2013 at the hands of immigration enforcement personnel. (And she isn’t the first to be killed in those circumstances: I’ve written here before about Jimmy Mubenga, who was also killed while being deported.) While politicians rail against immigration, we never hear anything from the media about the human impact of these policies.

    This is a racial justice issue. And it’s a feminist issue and an LGBT rights issue, too: Jackie Nanyonjo was a Ugandan lesbian refugee who was deported to Uganda after UK Border Agency officials refused to believe that she was a lesbian, and there are many other LGBT refugees in the same situation. There are rape survivors, war survivors and torture survivors being held at immigration detention centres. There are people dying because they are deported to countries because their lives are threatened. This is wrong. And progressives should be talking about it.

    So, does anyone have any contacts at any progressive-leaning media outlets who might be willing to write about it? Or do you think any of the FTB bloggers would be interested?

  176. rq says

    Maureen Brian (and Giliell, too)
    It’s been going on here for quite a bit more than 50 years as well, not always with Russian, but it happened with German before that, and with Russian again before that. So… While I can see how they might feel that they’re being put in their place, it doesn’t change the fact that everything they want and need, they can get in Russian with no problems. But when socially someone addresses them in Russian, or does not know the Russian language (like myself), they get offended, because how dare they!, and it’s really frustrating. They have lobby groups here, with funding from Russia, to maintain all kinds of Russian language campaigns. They raise their children not to learn Latvian, because they have schools in Russian, where every subject is taught in Russian, and when laws are attempted to initiate official-language courses (because the issues of these youth that they face later in not knowing Latvian at all are recognized), they refuse. They have their own media with its own pro-Russia/anti-West spin. They have their own political parties.
    I just don’t see how they can rightfully claim to be discriminated, except socially, and even that is person-dependent – many Russians have integrated into the idea of Latvia, speak Latvian (extremely well), maintain their Russian identity on their own time. There’s just a loud group insisting that they still live in Russia. Who would rather live in Russia, but when Russia offers them compensation to return, they refuse… So I guess I just really don’t get it. Call me out on anything above (or below) that’s wrong or discriminatory, I’ll freely admit I have a huge blind spot here, and it’s a very sensitive subject in daily life here, and I may not see some points of view on my own.
    And it’s split generationally (or, I guess, by wave, would be more accurate). Those who came in during Tsarist times have integrated well – they have their own Russian community, but they speak Latvian (while preferring Russian, if given the option), and Latvia’s second-largest city is more-or-less Russian. Those who came in the 1940’s and afterward, most of whom live in the capital, are the stubborn won’t types, and I suppose this is where the difference in politics occurs.
    Professionally speaking, I work with the state police – official language: Latvian. I do not speak Russian. I feel I should learn (more of it) because it would help socially, but I have no immediate need for it.
    Many of the older generation police officers speak Latvian poorly and prefer to do police business in Russian, which isn’t a problem, since everyone in the generations older than me knows Russian anyway. Still, it’s annoying when I answer the phone in Latvian, get a reply in Russian, reply in Latvian again, and still get a reply in Russian, even after explaining I do not speak the language (I started switching to English to confuse them even more).
    So… tl;dr: I understand the point you’re making, Maureen, and I guess it’s just a matter of waiting it out… for another few hundred years. ;)

    Wow, rant, that.
    Anyway, I suppose I would also just like to add that I would encourage people moving to places with different languages to learn the local language, and I would encourage the local population to have programs for them readily available (for more than a year, with appropriate advertising etc.), but I doubt it’s something that can be policed, even socially. A matter of each person accepting the responsibility for mutual communications for themselves, and working towards it, because it’s not something that will be handed on a plate. Communication is hard, and language is hard, and sometimes it’s easier to remain in the closed ethnic/cultural group than try to venture outside of it, but I think this backfires in those cases (as mentioned by Maureen about Spain) where population dynamics are changing, and the outside world breaks into the little enclave. No matter how much you want to protect it, it’s hard to maintain a balance of professionally well-rounded speakers, and sooner or later the World makes itself known.
    But you can’t force it on people. Learning is an active and voluntary process, you can’t make someone learn if they don’t want to or if they believe it’s not necessary. (That family I mentioned above? The father has never learned French; the mother has never learned Latvian; even though they’ve been exposed to each others’ languages for years, they never felt the necessity to learn them, didn’t want to, and didn’t… Although in their case, there aren’t any social (or other) repercussions.)

  177. Maureen Brian says

    Yes, rq. People are funny that way.

    What became England has – as far as we can tell – been “racially” mixed since the late stone age and we have the proof (tombstones and the like) since the Romans were here. That’s 55 CC to 410 CE according to the history books but we are realising that a significant culturally Roman population was left behind, some born in other parts of the Empire.

    Yet we have political parties which want to restore the racial purity of Englishness, which is not something they can define, and another more successful one which operates on the fallacy that there is a distinction between us lot and the Europeans.

    I pass as English but I’ve seen my family tree back to the mid-seventeenth century and there’s not an English person there. I trace my birth surname to a grave marker dated 937 CE and it’s a Viking name.

    Once history has happened, once people have been moved into, say, Latvia to civilise the locals, once their children have been brought up to believe they have a special role in a utopia which will last for ever then some people are going to believe that and stick with it to the bitter end. And I do not doubt that they are are annoying to you as centuries of Englishmen have been to the people upon whom they have tried to impose a quick fix of Universal Englishness. Once history has happened it has to work itself out, as you say, and there are no shortcuts.

    (Just 6 miles along the main road from where I’m sitting there’s a village called Walsden =valley of the Welsh = the Ancient Britons begin here and that may originally have been a warning call to take care. Who gave it that name? No-one knows which of half a dozen peoples but we do know it was a centuries ago. And when did the Soviet Union collapse? I was in Russia in 1990 and it was still holding together then, if only just. That’s not one lifetime.)

  178. The Mellow Monkey says

    I saw this getting passed around Facebook this morning. It’s truly remarkable.

    At long last, I understand why Indians, Asians, Indigenous Australians, Pacific Islanders, Sub-Saharan Africans, etc. don’t have any fucking feet. They are a white trait (and one lucky group of North Africans, but probably only the pale skinned ones count!).

    re: my ear. It doesn’t look swollen to the naked eye, but I think an otoscope and medical training would be better. Unfortunately, I don’t have health insurance. So now comes the fun game of fighting between discomfort, health concern and money.

  179. rq says

    Maureen Brian
    You’re right, of course.
    I mean, everyone who’s a Latvian wants to be a pure Latvian, but in a country this size, it’s just not possible (well, maybe – there may be someone who can, for generations upon generations, trace their lineage back to peoples living within this territory, but eventually they all came from somewhere else…). Moi, I have some Belorussian, some Swedish, probably Liv, most likely Polish, and without a doubt some Russian ancestry, and that’s within the calculable and traceable generations. It’s inescapable. The Latvian language as such was only standardized in the 1920s, according to one guy’s definition of ‘standard Latvian’, and voila! suddenly all other dialects just as old and correct are now ‘wrong’ (some still survive, of course – in colloquialisms and regional accents/dialects, with one attempting full separate-language-hood from time to time, and this is without even mentioning the Livs – the original original ‘Latvians’, who were displaced by the current ‘real’ Latvians – about 300 speakers left, if I’m not mistaken).
    I know tribes of Latvians were mentioned by Tacitus, and we even got our own crusade in the 12th century (yay for Christianization and the Teutonic Knights!), so yes. It’s all very complicated and historical and indefinite and full of ambiguities (also – extremely interesting), especially since intervening wars and tragedies and catastrophes and re-educations have destroyed records and re-made memories and essentially re-written actual history.
    *sigh*
    But you’re right, it mostly comes down to being frustrated with people today. For which, unfortunately, there is no cure.

  180. rq says

    Oh, I saw that, Mellow Monkey, and I was like – I don’t have any of those! So I’ll just not have feet in solidarity.
    Grrr on not having health insurance. :( I hope things work out!

  181. says

    To drop everything else:
    Shit, my handbag’s gone.
    I remember seeing it this morning and then wanting to take it with me. When I arrived at kindergarten I noticed I hadn’t it with me and thought “well, guess you didn’t take it after all”. But I can’t find it at home either, nor in the car.
    Mobile is ringing (which is usually my way to find the thing in the flat), but not here….

  182. rq says

    (Unless the mobile is on silent, which is what I do everytime I want to lose it or the purse it’s in…)
    Dropped on the way to/from car at either end of home or kindergarten? :/
    Good luck!

  183. says

    birgerjohansson@230
    I can’t say I’ll miss Margaret Thatcher, but I did so hate all the jokes about her mental decline.
    We only have the humanity we leave our enemies.

  184. blf says

    Snow prevents the chives from arising.
    I need fresh chives.

    There was some chives (plants and dried) in the “regional specialties” Saturday market last weekend. It was also raining.

    I guess that means you, snow, and rain all like chives. Does that mean you are a Rain Adjunct to the FSM?

     ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

    Real British Navy grog was rum, water, lime juice and sugar.

    Served with sodomy and lashes.

     ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

    Sprogs = cunning little creatures.

    A.k.a. the Nac Mac Feegle.

     ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━

    The mildly deranged penguin decided she needed some “hair of dog” after an excessive excess of excessively excessive drinking — the supertanker of Margaritas probably did it (she normally just drinks by the tanker-truck full) — but knew from previous experience dog’s fur doesn’t taste that great. Even with a raging headache to camouflage the taste.

    So this time she decided to combine it with that other well-known treatment, coffee.

    First problem was getting the coffee into the dog.

    No, actually, first problem was getting a dog. Not really a problem, there’s a small ball of YIP! YIP! at one of the neighbors…

    Catching YIP! YIP! wasn’t really a problem. The mildly deranged penguin has extensive experience in herding cats towards the trebuchet.

    Getting the coffee into YIP! YIP! was much more difficult. It wouldn’t drink the stuff from a bowel, mug, or high-pressure hose.

    After the attempt to drink coffee from the firehose, YIP! YIP! was drenched with the stuff. YIP! YIP! shook it off the way doggies do, soaking everything else in the vicinity — including the mildly deranged penguin — which was rather hard to notice being completely covered in coffee from the hose…

    But that did give the mildly deranged penguin an idea: Not coffee in dog, but hair of dog in coffee! Or actually, since YIP! YIP! is so small (and comprised mainly of YIP! which nothing else apparent), all of YIP! YIP! in coffee.

    YIP! YIP! can YIP! YIP! undercoffee.

    And it didn’t work. When the mildly deranged penguin tried drinking the YIP! YIP!ing concoction, a great ball of YIP! YIP! trailing a stream of coffee jumped out of the barrel and fled into the distance. Still YIP! YIP!ing. All the mildly deranged penguin got for her efforts was a coffee flood and a barrel containing what seems to be some YIP!s that have taken on an independent existence. She had to nail it shut…

  185. says

    So, the handbag seems to be gone for good.
    The mobile has been turned off because me calling it all the time must have been annoying (or the battery ran out). I can hear it making a noise even when it’s on silent because then the vibrations take off, so, no, not here.
    I must have lost the bag on either the 5m from my flat door to the elevator or the 25m form the elevator to the car. I wanted to get it out of the car at the kindergarten and it was gone already (since I have no clear memory of grabbing it I assumed it was at home).
    Shit, shit, fucking shit.

  186. says

    thunk-

    Oops, I think I was off on what your long-term goals are based on this:

    I know you’ve already said you prefer gender non-specific pronouns here, correct?

    Sorry for my assumptions. Change my advice instead to baggy clothes, feminine hair dye, still the TLC for help and advice on the one thing you can’t say, and checking out a genderqueer forum for advice on how to a) not get misgendered all the time as a genderqueer or agendered individual and b) advice and support for how to stand up for the look you want to present yourself as.

  187. says

    @Crip Dyke

    Becasue when I look back on my expensive legal education I want to be able to say that during my 3 years I really made some quality blog comments.

    Heh. Well, between the Landsburg comments and Max Dick McMacho, I’d say you done purty good ;).

    Good luck on those finals. The world needs more enlightened lawyers.

  188. thunk, warm air advection says

    Yeah thanks Cerberus. with the very beneficial standard advice. I guess it depends on whether I’m going to be actually be creeped out of actually learning anything about trans* stuff (it’s like my searching taboo, but worse and more self-destructive), and actually determining what my long-term gender goals are (from what I’ve seen, I’m very genderfluid on the timescale of minutes… so yeah. It’s almost as if two parts of my brain keep arguing about it.)

  189. rq says

    Translating fun: correcting a piece about a new type of bank deposit they’ll be offering their clients. Turns out, it’s tricky (perhaps they meant tricksy?).
    I doubt I’ll be applying. ;)
    (Replaced it with smart, for the record.)

  190. thunk, warm air advection says

    Also, I’m glad things are looking up!

    Welcome back Walton, you’re always insightful on immigrant issues.

    rq: Oh, the horrors, you don’t know Russian? :p
    On a more serious note, as recent immigrants to America, none of us knew much, if any, English upon arrival. Now, 12 years later, my mom’s getting rather competent in it, my dad is heavily accented but knows quite enough to get by, and I’m just heavily erudite (to the point of it being my effective first language.)

    so yeah…

  191. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @ Walton.

    I undersand you’ve been scarce? I’ve been very random the last 10 months, so I didn’t notice, but always glad to have you around.

    At the heart of what your raging against is what the international law community calls “refoulement”. It’s often illegal by treaty, but it’s not (yet) clearly illegal for all nations wrt any other nation.

    I know this ‘cuz I’ve had one term of international, so CD == Expert!!!!

    But seriously, this is the topic most interesting to me in IL, and I wrote about it and got quite a good grade, so I must understand the basics fairly well, at least. I’m more than happy to explore this further. I might even be doing a research project on queer refoulement over the summer as a professor’s assistant (we’ll see if it comes to pass).

    I’d love to know more and write more about this. There are large problems with the immigration enforcement in Canada & the US as well, both with detention/detention conditions and with refoulement. If you have anyone I should be in touch with regarding this, LMK.

    Also, I need to do an international research project at some point over the next 2 years. I’ve been wanting to do something in east Africa b/c of family connections there (Kenya). Uganda scares me, but if I can do it safely (as a white, out, trans dyke from a power rightly seen as imperial, racist, and violent, though, I’m sure that everything would go completely smoothly), I’d love to travel to the UK and Uganda – and other places whence persons are being returned – and try to write on it in a way that brings some light to the situation. I know, I know, but don’t laugh: law student projects, especially from large, “name” universities, are often sparks (small I admit) that can eventually light a substantial fire b/c law schools are so tied in to the power elite. If a prof likes what you write, it gets in the right ears quickly.

    So, I’m not an FtBlogger, but I’d love to have your connections, if any, and would certainly like some sources so I can look at the original material. I’m sure some lawyers in the UK have already been looking at this and not having to repeat basic statutory research & such would be a huge boon.

  192. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Walton

    I somehow missed:

    I’m currently in the process of qualifying as a barrister (in the hope of practising immigration law), which is largely why I haven’t been around. Also struggling with mental health stuff.

    As someone who has struggled with depression, I sympathize. As a law student, I’d love to be more connected directly with you. I guess my stuff about law schools connections blah blah were more than superfluous. Sorry, there are a lot of interested and active persons on such issues and I don’t assume they are lawyers, but I should do a better job of not assuming they *aren’t* lawyers.

  193. Pteryxx says

    Walton: seconding thunk, it’s good to see you again even briefly.

    How about taking Nanyonjo’s story to either Sikivu Hutchinson, or to Ed Brayton? Ed covers police brutality, for-profit prison systems, and anti-gay regimes. (He just doesn’t pay much attention to his comments.)

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2013/04/08/gambian-leader-no-mercy-for-gay-people/

    And Sikivu’s an activist on-the-ground who might pick up on the Movement for Justice angle – Nanyonjo wasn’t merely a client, she was an active protester against the brutal treatment of immigrants.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/blackskeptics/2013/03/27/defense-of-marriage-racism-family-values-and-the-99/

    Oh, and Ophelia Benson might promote it too. She regularly covers international feminism.

    For broader coverage, frankly I’m surprised none of the Redditors or Daily Kos’ers have covered the story yet. (suggestions: Meteor Blades, or maybe Nulwee, just on a quick search of Daily Kos for similar topics.)

    Also there’s Al Jazeera… I’d think this’d be right up their alley, *and* they investigate.

    Since America’s busy exporting its religion-based right-wing homophobia into the governments of other countries, as atheists (and/or US’ians) we SHOULD be concerned with the victims of those policies.

  194. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Today, I:
    (1) Woke up 15 minutes (from a baffling dream featuring an odd blend of church camp and being a swimmer) before I have to be at work.
    (2) Nonetheless got to work on time.
    (3) Got a phishing “login system has changed!! please go to the new page and enter your credentials!!” email. Almost fell for it.
    (4) Was impressed – again – by the bot-catching software employed by the State University of New York. To wit, “Here are nine photos of adorable animals currently available for adoption at the local animal shelter, embedded with a link to the animal shelter’s “Adopt me!” website. Indicate which ones are cats.” :D :D :D

  195. Walton says

    Crip Dyke: I also studied for an LLM (international human rights) in the US, and participated in a law school clinic where I was working on immigration and asylum cases, so I’ve learned a good deal about the US immigration enforcement system too. Which is similarly horrifying. (I was also involved in immigrants’ rights activism in the Boston area when I lived there, and went to protests against Massachusetts SB 2061, which was an attempt by some state legislators to pass an anti-immigrant bill similar to Arizona’s SB 1070.)

  196. Pteryxx says

    …random finds from Al Jazeera, since I can’t help but READ ALL THE THINGS ARGH

    New Atheists and old scientific racism

    What Harris and those like him represent is the time-honoured tradition of weaponised racism in the guise of disinterested scientific observation. When Harris – as a scientist – claims to observe the innate dishonesty, violence and intellectual inferiority of Muslims, he gives his own scientific approval to the propagation of the most heinous violence against them as a people.

    Hijacking feminism: Feminism devoid of social justice

    Yet the ideal for both women remains the same – having a very successful career and a heteronormative family and being able to enjoy them both. From Private Woman through the New Woman and Superwoman, it has finally become possible to speak about the Balanced Woman.

    So what happened to social justice?

    This, unfortunately, is how the “truly liberated” woman of the 21st century is increasingly being construed. What is particularly troubling about this feminist moment – especially since both women espouse liberal ideals – is exactly how little emphasis either Slaughter or Sandberg ultimately places on equal rights, justice or emancipation as the end goals for feminism.

  197. Pteryxx says

    and someone on Daily Kos provided a transcript of Maddow’s segment:

    Why Exxon is Too Big to Care

    Now they know. A bad way to find out it’s there, right? We also know about previous safety violations as it relates to that specific Exxon pipeline. In 2010 the Federal Government fined Exxon for failing to inspect a different portion of that same pipeline as frequently as is required by law. Sounds bad, right? Not only did they not do it because they got caught and the federal government nailed them for it. You want to know what fine was for that?

    The fine was, $26,000. Okay just for some perspective, so Exxon made $44 billion in profit last year. That breaks down to with, per day profit of $122 million a day. That’s what they make in profit in one day. That $26,000 fine on that pipeline that burst in Arkansas, the day that fine was assessed by the Federal Government, that represented this much of their profit that day:

  198. says

    Roger Ebert dies, Westboro Baptist Church finds another opportunity to express hatred.

    It should come as absolutely no surprise that the attention-whore hate group Westboro Baptist Church announced this weekend it would protest the funeral of Roger Ebert. Ebert, after all, stood for everything WBC will never possess – tolerance, exuberance, rational thought. What is surprising is how blatantly retaliatory this particular protest is – and how it appears to have been prompted by a Salon story.

    Twice on March 25, Ebert tweeted a link to a Salon excerpt from Jeff Chu’s new memoir, “Does Jesus Really Love Me?” In it, Chu, a gay man, goes undercover in the Topeka based “church,” where he spends a day picketing with the group who believe that “Spreading their gospel is their duty and their gesture of kindness to a hell-bound world.” It just happens that their method of spreading the love involves screaming “I don’t even know what’s growing inside your crusty assholes!” at gay men….

    http://www.salon.com/2013/04/08/someone_hates_roger_ebert_westboro_baptist/

    Really, Westboro? Two thumbs down from all of us.

  199. says

    From the Westboro Baptist press release, issued just before Ebert died:

    “American entertainment industry publicity leech Roger Ebert took to Twitterverse to mock the faithful servants of God at Westboro Baptist Church”

  200. says

    As some of you may have noticed, Mormons held their semi-annual General Conference in Salt Lake City over the weekend. I thought I’d provide a few highlights. First up is one of PZ’s favorite examples of mormon fuckupedness, Apostle Boyd K. Packer, whose message can be boiled down to “tolerance is a trap.”

    Just because the nation may change its laws to “tolerate legalized acts of immorality” does not make those acts any less spiritually damaging, senior apostle Boyd K. Packer said Saturday morning at the LDS Church’s 183rd Annual General Conference.

    “The permissiveness afforded by the weakening of the laws of the land to tolerate legalized acts of immorality,” Packer said, “does not reduce the serious spiritual consequences that result from the violation of God’s law of chastity.”…

    “Tolerance is a virtue, but, like all virtues, when exaggerated it transforms itself into a vice,” said the 88-year-old Packer, speaking from his chair rather than from the pulpit. “We need to be careful of the ‘tolerance trap’ so that we are not swallowed up in it.”

    Next up is apostle David A. Bednar, who has sacred channels on his mind.

    … Mormon teachings decree that sex should be between only a husband and a wife …

    “The commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth remains in force today,” Bednar said. “Thus, marriage between a man and a woman is the authorized channel through which premortal spirits enter mortality. Complete sexual abstinence before marriage and total fidelity within marriage protect the sanctity of this sacred channel. … the Lord’s truth is not altered by fads, popularity or public opinion polls.”

    And then we have the most exciting news from the General Conference, women were allowed to lead prayers! Holy crap. The prayers were a total snooze fest.

    For the first time in Mormon history, a woman offered a public prayer at General Conference. Jean A. Stevens, first counselor in the church’s Primary general presidency… gave the benediction at the opening session.

    If you visit the official LDS web page for the April 2013 conference you will find all of the male speakers listed, and you can read transcripts of their talks (in several languages), and/or view videos of their presentations, but you cannot see nor view transcripts of the prayers/benedictions offered by the women.

  201. Pteryxx says

    via Salon:

    A study shows that talking about a female candidate’s appearance (positively or negatively) hurts her chances of winning.

  202. says

    There are more than 1300 comments below the Salt Lake Tribune article that outlines mormon apostle Boyd K. Packer’s (and other mormon leader’s) General Conference talks. The comments are sometimes a breath of fresh air, with many reader noting that they have left/escaped mormonism.
    http://www.sltrib.com/pages/comments?cid=56116400

    I recently stepped back from church because I could no longer set aside my rational brain and inclusive heart to swallow this type of garbage….

    …I’ve discovered that I’m part of a generation that is increasingly recognizing that the Emperor has no clothes. Thanks, internet!…

    There are many commenters who explain why they left mormonism. Here’s one example of how those still in the mormon church respond to the apostates:

    I think you stepping away from the church is a good time. You obviously don’t understand the gospel nor do you have the faith sufficient. I am interested as to if you “stepped” away from the church then how come you are here posting and following what is going on? Left but can’t leave it alone. Sad

  203. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    From BizarroComics.

    I’m just going to say that I never ceased to be surprised by the magic of Indian. Whenever anything at all to do with Indians* comes up, it magically becomes all about white people. You’d think we were unicorns farting rainbows, with that sort of magic.

    *Oh yeah, pardon, First Nation People and Native American People and all that jazz. Wačhíŋtȟuŋ šni. Bah.

    *SNARK WARNING*
     
    Well, it’s because y’all are extinct. No, really; at least as far as General Education goes.
     
    Perhaps I should qualify that. Back In The Day, when I was being Generally Educated in SoCal, there was much mention of the padres and the Indians, glancing mention of Ishi The Last Of His Tribe (that’s all part of his name, y’know), Tales of the Wild, Wild West, and then, No Further Information. Oklahoma came as quite a surprise, I can tell you that. So:
     
    What with the extinction and all, of course Indians are magic. If a dodo waddled out of the hedge, it’d be magic, too. Or a smilodon. (Would be magic. Not a dodo.)
     
    Plus, of course, there’s the whole New-Agey, Earth Magick thing. You probably do fart rainbows! Have you actually checked?
     
     
    *whispers*
    maaaagick!
     
    *END SNARK WARNING*

    *hugs* and encouragement for thunk.

    Cerberus: Congrats(?) on situation stabilization, and huzzah! for stress-free coming-out to your uncle; also, for $upport.
    Also also, *hugs*

    Walton!
    *pouncehug!*
    *reads*
    :( :( :( :( :(

    And a *pouncehug* for Maureen Brian, too!

    Giliell, I hope your handbag shows up.
    -

  204. says

    Here is a transcript of the first public prayer given by a women at mormon General Conference in 183 years:

    “Our beloved Father in Heaven. We come before thee at the conclusion of this magnificent opening session of our General Conference, and we do so with an expression of our love for thee, and our great gratitude for the gifts thou hast given us, most importantly the gift of thy son Jesus Christ, our savior and redeemer.

    “We are grateful for the restoration of the gospel, and with it the blessings of priesthood power, temple covenants, scriptures, and living apostles and prophets. We are grateful this day for President Thomas S. Monson, our beloved prophet. We pray for him. We support him and love him, as we do his counselors, the members of the Quorum of the Twelve, and all who labor to assist in this great work.

    “We are so very grateful for the inspiring words and messages we’ve received, and the beautiful music that has all contributed to what we have felt this day. And as we come to a close of this session of conference, we pray that thy spirit will abide with us, and that we may take with us an increased faith and hope in Jesus Christ, a more certain witness of his redeeming love and his great atoning sacrifice, and a deeper conversion to living and sharing his gospel.

    “We offer this prayer in humility and in the sacred name of thy son, Jesus the Christ. Amen.”

    The cynics over at Recovery from Mormonism speculate that her prayer was pre-approved by a committee of men. Yeah, seems likely. But it is also unlikely that Jean Stevens would have proposed anything other than innocuous mormon-speak.

  205. mythbri says

    @Lynna

    I was going to say, it seems like standard Mormon prayer boilerplate to me. I would be interested to know if it were pre-approved, but it’s clear to me that they’re not going to risk having General Conference tainted by the dangers of Teh Feminism – I’m sure Jean Stevens was carefully screened.

  206. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Translating fun: correcting a piece about a new type of bank deposit they’ll be offering their clients. Turns out, it’s tricky (perhaps they meant tricksy?).

    But is it tricksy and false?
    -

  207. mattkron says

    Hello everyone, 6-months-old (de)lurker here !

    I have a question for those of you whose activism in the atheism/evolution/etc. cyberspace results in brutal and/or unlawful opposition.

    In a few months, I intend to publish a relatively controversial article that have quite a chance to attract the attention of both religious fundamentalists and animal rights activists. Given that, I can expect hate mail and the like…

    So, what kind of preparations can be made to limit the amount of hateful correspondence received and mitigate its impact ?

  208. rq says

    cicely
    I don’t know if it’s false (only Horse knows that), I only had to correct the translation of The Hook (you know, that lovely letter that says You Are The One Special Customer We Have!, with fireworks and an ice cream cake. It spoke of a ‘tricky and efficient’ deposit – probably concerning the deposit of peas in unmentionable and unknowable locations, only to find them putrefying and stinking the place up months later.

  209. says

    mythbri @266:

    I was going to say, it seems like standard Mormon prayer boilerplate to me.

    Yes, exactly. Despite the boilerplate and the standard, weird mormon delivery, mormon women and generally wetting their garmies with glee. It’s hard to understand how such a too-little-too-late concession to women could cause so much upheaval. Just another signal of how far behind mormons are when it comes to women’s rights.

    Several other speakers at General Conference made a point of trying to explain that women share the priesthood with men, specifically with their husbands. This is hogwash. They are trying to cover a huge difference between the privileges men enjoy and those women are allowed (reluctantly) within the mormon religion. A public prayer here and there, and a bunch of meaningless blather from the patriarchs is not going to equal equality for all. It is the dogma, the policies, and the culture of mormonism that would have to change.

    Fat chance.

  210. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    rq
    If the ultimate result is the surprise discovery of putrescent peas where none were looked for, then I would say that this is as close to the true meaning of false as it is possible to get, without actual Equine involvement. Clearly the ice cream cake is a lie, and I would place no credence in the existence of these alleged “fireworks”, either.
     
    And, also clearly, a parent hesis is a hesis that has engendered offspring; which I would venture to suggest are most frequently found in pairs, or multiples of pairs.
    -

  211. mythbri says

    @Lynna

    Much of my family is still Mormon, and my sister-in-law is struggling to reconcile her faith with her new-found feminism and passion for social justice. This, coupled with the new age requirements for women to serve missions, seem like very positive changes to her. I try not to rain on her parade too much, because I’ve been in her position. It’s not easy.

    However, the simple matter of a prayer?! I fail to understand what was so controversial about the mere suggestion. My sister-in-law also acquainted me with the backlash that a group of Mormon women received merely for proposing that women be allowed to wear pants to church, and that men show their support for this by wearing purple ties or shirts.

    My sister-in-law is currently in the “waking up” process of realizing all of the patriarchal bullshit that was fed to her for her entire life – like the “modesty” crap, and the structural organization of the church. She and I have good conversations about this, and I try to be both supportive and a little subversive.

  212. says

    Rq, David Marjanović
    You both offered financial assistance at the beginning of the month for my rental troubles. I know of some relatively low-cost therapy options, for L and D, but we simply havn’et got the money to pay for even the reduced ($50/session)rates. I hat e to impose on your generosity, but if you, or anyone in the Horde, should contribute some thine towards getting them at least some help until we can get the records and BS for SSDI, you might well be saving lives.

  213. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    I only missed three days, it shouldn’t be this hard to catch up! Been to Slovenia. The weather was good, but I froze my ass off since there was no one there to heat the house during the winter and it takes time to get some heat from a wood stove into the walls no matter how small the place.

    —–

    From what I’ve managed to catch up with …. Portia and Azkyroth need hugs (dumps a pile of *hugs*) and Giliell family might visit Croatia. Eeeeeeee!!!!
    There’s a zoo in Split, but I’ve never been. I wouldn’t advise staying in Split for the beach, though. I am terminally in love with Brač (more precisely, the town Supetar on the island), I like Mali Lošinj too. Generally, I’m biased towards islands. That’s a quick one, before my brain falls asleep. Ask away.
    —–
    *sneeze*

    Not good. People at work did me a favour, giving me a day off today. I don’t want to get sick now.

    —–

    Welcome, Mario and pseudonymus!

    —–
    Ok, I’m cheating. I am now skipping everything that doesn’t look like big news.

  214. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Sorry about the handbag, Giliell. I guess it’s too much to hope that you didn’t have most of your documents and cards in there.

    Welcome, all the new folks!

  215. chigau (unless...) says

    I went to bed last night feeling a little bit punk.
    Woke up this morning with a full blown ear-infection and well on my way to a full-blown tooth-infection.
    Now on anti-biotics, so no booze.
    Happy birthday to me.

  216. Portia says

    Happy Birthday chigau!!
    :D
    It’s my sister’s birthday, too. (And Jerk’s, but no one cares about him).
    I hope you feel better soon : (

    Same to you, Mellow Monkey. Hope your ear pain goes away : (

  217. David Marjanović says

    Sent some money in the general direction of Dalillama. Tell me if it has arrived.

    *fills huge aquarium with warm hugs*
    *plops seagrass and calming manatees in*

    Giliell, I envy you and the kids, because you’re going to meet Beatrice before I will.

  218. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Happy birthday with added *hugs* to chigau, and sorry to hear about the ear&tooth infection. That is an all-too-familiar-to-me combo, and it has uniformly sucked.
    -

  219. chigau (ouch ouch ouch) says

    Thanks, Dalillama.
    Now to bed, to see what codeine does to dreaming.

  220. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Happy birthday, chigau!

    Rhinos!

    What? Maybe you’ll dream about rhinos in space if you read this right before going to sleep. :)

  221. Xaivius says

    So, not to continue any specific topic:

    Funny thought: Heckle a campus preacher (or even the LaRouchettes!) with having someone dress up as Heimskr from Skyrim (TAMRIEEEEEL!) and repeat that entire speech next to aforementioned tabernacler.

  222. says

    Hi guys. Good to see everyone’s still here, more or less. Taking care of each other, that’s good. I should go to bed now but instead I will probably finish watching this episode of Alias.

  223. rowanvt says

    I am going to have no power for much of the day tomorrow while the power company fiddles with… stuff or something. So I have made… a plan. And that plan is to take pictures of the light coming through the redwoods and fog at dawn tomorrow and spend much of the morning and early afternoon hiking and taking photos. Tomorrow is going to be *awesome*.

    In random news, I was a terrible doggy-mommy and shaved my dog’s ears along with the rest of her for her 6-wk trim. Now she looks ridiculous. ;_;

  224. says

    WMDKitty-

    Been winding my way through your hell thread, I’m around comment 230 and haven’t gotten to where they pulled that “oh, you must be lying about your abuse” horseshit yet.

    I have read through some of lofgren’s “arguments” though and I think I’ve realized that I fucking despise “devil’s advocate” and anyone who ever practices it with the fury of a thousand hateful suns.

    It’s such a bullshit over-privileged tactic that douchebags get to engage in because they aren’t actually invested in anything. Ha, ha, their humanity, their traumas, their cultural oppressions aren’t on the “discussion docket”, so what do they care if they treat it all like a game? It’s not like they are really invested anyways, though they always want to win by any strategy (to make you a better debater, not because they believe any of this on a subconscious level, oh no), and count it as a “mark against you” if you dare get pissed because you are actually arguing about something you believe and that affects you and they are playing “debate club makes u iz smart person” bullshit games with themselves in sadistic fashion.

    Fuck them, so hard. And fuck bad philosophy for over-promoting such tactics.

  225. Xaivius says

    Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man@295

    I’ve had some issues with this due to the way I self-check my thoughts, but I think what I’m doing is a bit different: It’s entirely an internal process of “I feel this position on this issue, is there another position that I should look at? Is it more valid/better/more appealing that the previous? What are the issues involved? Do I have a personal stake? etc” And this is sort of my comprehension of “Devil’s Advocate.” The difference, I think, comes in that I wouldn’t actually say that in a conversation without at least asking permission if not being solicited for a contrary position. It’s one thing to self-check, or provide a contrasting opinion when asked. To just throw it out there as a “BUT I DISAGREE BECAUSE REASONS!” seems to be nothing more than publicly displayed mental masturbation. I’ve seen this a bit, and I get a bit nervous when I hear the hate for it, because I do it internally. I don’t think it applies to what I’m doing, does it?

  226. says

    WMDKitty-

    Fuck… your hell thread is hell to get through, just hit lofgren’s @237 where he straight up “pish toshed” my comment talking about my rape, my partner’s rapes, and my other partner’s rape because “not in the &$^#!ing devil’s advocate argument” therefore irrelevant, apparently with no irony or even passing awareness of how rape victims are constantly silenced in narratives and life experiences surrounding rape. I’m sorry, but I might not make it to the fresher bullshittery.

  227. says

    Xavius @296

    No.

    And my partner kind of cold-eyed me when I started talking about my response, so I’m definitely way off base. I probably just hate bad devil’s advocate arguments and I just have the misfortune of only ever encountering them and apologies for them whenever I encounter devil’s advocate positions.

    Sorry for making you worry.

  228. Xaivius says

    Cerberus: Fucking Oppression, Man@298
    nonono, not a problem. I just like to check my thinking, and I could go on about sanity-checking (in the CS sense {linky!}, i.e. does this position make sense in the context available) my own thoughts, especially when I’m changing my references or internal processing procedures consciously (such as switching to purely (purile! =D) non-gendered profanity). It’s one of those things where I get a sudden burst of “OHGAWDAMIDOINGWRONG!?SHITSHITSHIT?! [panic mode]. I can completely see where an unsolicited counterpoint in favor of some horrible shit that’s already been trod (Victim Blaming, Rape Culture, etc) can be interpreted as, and has a good chance of actually being, a personal attack. And sometimes, people just don’t have time for that shit.
    so yeah. I babbled again. Sorry :(

  229. says

    WMDKitty:
    Given Heddle’s history, it sounds like he was projecting his own attributes on you.

    As for Michael Heath–I haven’t interacted with him much, but from what you’ve quoted, he comes off in a *horrible* light (trying to be kind, for the sake of the Lounge).

    ****
    carlie:

    I like fluffy movies that end happily. That Thing You Do!

    I think I would like those types of movies more if Hollywood didn’t saturate the theaters with movies of that vein.
    Speaking of those types of movies, I’m at Emerald City, watching Steel Magnolias. It’s at the point near the end of the movie. You know the point I’m talking about. When things ain’t happy. Every time I watch this movie, I find myself in awe of Sally Field. Her acting chops are *superb*.

    ****
    catsto:
    Hello there. Welcome.
    Good luck in your ALEC search.

    ****
    Is it just me, or does there seem to be more people delurking lately (as in the last few months)? Is there something in the Pharyngula water? Whatever it is bring it on. You all have unique contributions to share (if you choose), and many of us love hearing different perspectives and experiences.

    ****

    thunk:
    Hugs, and best wishes.

    ****

    Now we are at the funeral scene of Steel Magnolias; otherwise known as the point at which I almost always cry.
    I find it amusing hearing the god talk in the cemetary, against the backdrop of a loved one dying. Oh yeah, imagining someone up in heaven looking down on you is TOTES more awesome than having that loved one still here and able to live, breathe and interact with you!

    ****

    Cerberus:
    Good to hear the news about the job and GREAT to hear that your uncle has been so accepting of you. It’s clear he sees what many other people see (including me): You’re an awesome person.

    ****

    Lynna:

    Really, Westboro? Two thumbs down from all of us.

    Oh, I think I have something far worse to give them. There’s a middle finger around here somewhere. I also have some extra spit saved up *just* for them. And if push comes to shove, I have some really colorful language for them.

    But we’re in the Lounge.
    And you folks all have imaginations.

    from your link @ 259:

    Complete sexual abstinence before marriage and total fidelity within marriage protect the sanctity of this sacred channel

    Does their version of the babble not mention men with multiple wives?
    Oh, and if the commandment is to fuck n breed, why the hell is marriage necessary for that? Shouldn’t they be in support of *any* kind of sex, so long as babies are produced?

    ****
    mattkron @268:

    Welcome in, pull up a chair, beanbag, recliner, heck, even the floor is comfy.
    I hope you’ll link to your article when it is published.

    ****
    chigau:

    H B
    A I
    P R
    P T
    Y H
    .. D
    .. A
    .. Y

    ****

    ::jumps up and down and waves to SallyStrange :)

  230. opposablethumbs says

    Happy birthday, chigau – and here’s wishing good analgesics to you (and to Mellow Monkey if still needed :-( ).

    Welcome to the recent de-lurkers! (I just realised I often don’t welcome people because I don’t feel like a properly regular regular with the “standing” to welcome anyone. But what the hell, it’s great to see you all!)

    I hate devil’s advocacy.

    Argh to losing the handbag, Giliell. I suppose you had to cancel all your cards and have the phone contract suspended or stopped (unless it was a pay-as-you-go phone which will stop when it runs through whatever credit was already on it) … shit, will you have to change any locks? Double aaaargh.

    Good luck with your SIL, mythbri! She’s lucky to have someone who understands where she’s coming from.

    Ugh. Spawn#2 has an audition today and an AS exam tomorrow. The main bulk of the exams is coming up soon … hope the school is going to cope with SEN provisions. Spawn#1 has an interview on Thursday. Ugh.

  231. rq says

    Good morning, Winter Spring!
    I was excited on the weekend because of snowdrops peeking through the earth.
    Then it snowed another 20.
    Happy birthday, chigau, may the analgesics find you well. The tradition here is not to drink any wine or beer while on medication (because fermentation) but hard liqueur is totally ok. If you want to celebrate Latvian-stylez.
    Giliell, I hope that, in the end, the loss of the handbag is comparably small (financially/materially), but I do hope, most of all, that it will turn up somewhere. These things happen.
    Hello Beatrice!
    Yesterday went by and I missed telling Cerberus that I’m glad about his comparatively good news re: the work situation, and even more glad about the accepting uncle.
    Good luck to Spawn, opposablethumbs! And congrats (or congarats, if you prefer) on finishing the Job. I like that feeling of relief when you actually make the due date and it’s out of your hands (for me, at least – they pay me whether I translate badly or well, so it doesn’t matter (really), just extra work for the person correcting if I rush it too much, so I’ve stopped worrying about getting everything perfect).

    *Dalillama*
    I’m one of those people without PayPal because of no credit card (which is the only way I can get PayPal from here), other times I’ve mailed (yes, snail mailed!!) financial aid via Esteleth. If you would like a (slightly :P) more direct approach but a waiting period of ~2 weeks, drop me an email (you still have it?), and I’ll do what I can. (Warning: My top limit right now is one session,though… Sorry. :/)

  232. says

    Good morning
    Argh, I have a terrible cough.
    And why is it too much to ask for people to shoot you an email back to confirm a change in a plan?
    I mean, I totally understand that you don’t do so when the mail says “everything fine, we proceed as planned”. But if it says “hey, there’s a problem, can we do this instead?” it wold be nice if you confirmed it, because emails get lost…

    beatrice
    There’s nothing fixed yet. We’ll have to look for campsites and stuff and then decide it. But thanks for your input.

    handbag
    Of course, all my cards were in there apart from my student ID. And they are the bigger loss. I don’t fucking care if you take the money, just give me my handbag back. My driver’s license is no use to you but it will cost me way more than the cash you got to get another one. The phone is safe. As it is turned off, you need a PIN to access it.
    I’ll call a cop-friend to find out if I can file a report. Not because I have any hopes, but because a police-report serves as officiall document that the other documents are lost. If I don’t have that I have to pay about 20 bucks to solemnly declare that the document is lost for my ID, for my dirver’s license, for the car document…Plus the fees for the new documents.
    *sigh*

  233. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Oh, and apparently I came here to “find allies” to “back me up”

    Well why the fuck not? It’s not like the rape apologists aren’t legion.

  234. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Don’t a lot of phones have a GPS locator feature in them? The cops might be able to do somethign with that…

  235. says

    Azkyroth

    Oh, no, I know there’s nothing wrong with calling for back up support, and gods know I appreciate it, I just didn’t like what he was insinuating with that comment.

    Between that, the continued dismissal of lived experiences, and the ever-popular “bitches be lying”, it’s no wonder one might feel a need to retreat for a while.

    I don’t get what their deal is, man. I just know I don’t want to be like them.

  236. says

    Thanks for the mental support, everybody.
    As for the phone: Nobody is going to buy that. No funky new Iphone, not even an old Iphone. An about 3 years old phone that was cheap back then and that is locked now. No GPS either.


    Dalillama
    Big hugs for the situation.
    I wished I could contribute anything at the moment :(


    chigau
    A bearable birthday and get well soon

  237. says

    WMDKitty-

    I finally made it to the end. Michael Heath is scum. And fuck their little “everyone who calls me out on anything that isn’t mustache twirling villainy is a lying liar who lies” debate club tactic shit.

    I’ve left two giant posts providing contexts and calling some shit out @312 and 313.

    I’m really sorry for what has been wrought on you and I hope it brings some small comfort and maybe even some awareness for those who can be reached.

    Now, reading through some of that has brought on some of the nastiest flashback stuff in a while, so I don’t think I’m going to be back for a little while. Let me know if things get really bad again.

  238. rq says

    I finally found the answer for all those ‘Why You Aren’t Happy’ and ‘How to Be Happy!’ lists that keep popping up on my Facebook. There’s a few links in there that are interesting, too, such as the lead-up to the specific link.

    And then there was this link to someone insisting that water has a memory and homeopathy works, which made my morning a little bit brighter.
    Oh, that’s just the sun off the snow? Huh. Yup, it’s April.

  239. birgerjohansson says

    (Crossposted from the ding dong thread)

    South Africans NOT so enthusiastic about Thatcher’s government
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/08/margaret-thatcher-south-africa-_n_3039649.html

    Going against overwhelming mainstream sentiment, Thatcher refused to impose sanctions on South Africa’s apartheid regime and went so far as to describe the African National Congress in 1987 as terrorists.
    “Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land,” she said of the ANC at the time.

    Good riddance of bad rubbish.

  240. says

    *safehugs* for Cerberus

    I don’t want to go back to that thread, either, but we all know I’m going to continue to watch the train-wreck out of morbid fascination.

  241. says

    WMDKitty-

    Oh, and apparently I came here to “find allies” to “back me up”, and not because it’s, you know, a safe space. *rolleyes*

    Cause a) as Azkyroth said, that’d be a bad thing?, b) because anytime a woman dares talk about something that bothers them in any forum it must always be about the poor poor narcissistic assholes, c) eh, sorry about giving them more ammo there by literally going over there to see for myself and provide support, and d) I read every one of their comments. Listened carefully, especially carefully because I was in a hyper-aware space brought on by increasing triggers, and considered their viewpoints and positions entirely and gave them full credit to be taken as they were.

    And based on d… they are unmitigated assholes who are complicit with and continuing a rape culture they barely understand and think that just because they for so long avoided the most obvious manifestations of such that that meant their various other actions were somehow as innocent as they wanted them to be.

    From their words, their actions, their choices. That wasn’t you “poisoning the pond”. That was them standing behind the actions they chose in a space where most of the rape victims had been “opted out” by the toxicity of the conversation.

    And yeah, there’s a really dismissive quality to the whole “complaint” that seems designed to dissuade rape victims from speaking on each others’ behalves and privilege vulcan privileged positions because they are “unfettered by allies”. I guess heddle and Michael Heath getting each other backs doesn’t count because MISANDRY or something.

    *ALL THE HUGS*

  242. rq says

    The vomiting sucks, but I’d prefer a drug for the smell sensitivity. Becoming a walking, talking, constantly-retching ball of misery was not fun at all.

  243. mildlymagnificent says

    Pregnancy is enough of a misery without it.

    Not just misery. The severe form which apparently strikes early can be fatal. In fact, Germaine Greer said

    Before the 1950s when it became routine to replace lost fluids intravenously, Hyperemesis gravidarum was the principal cause of death of pregnant women.

    I never knew that. http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/kates-condition-can-kill-its-no-joke-20121220-2bpin.html I also like the point she makes that young women are expected to get through all the difficulties of pregnancy taking no medications at all, while lots of money is devoted to finding drugs to “prolong the lives of the elderly rich.”

    I like a touch of Greer when she’s both right and righteous.

  244. opposablethumbs says

    Thank you Tony! :-)

    And thank you for the good luck for the Spawn, rq - we’ll need some, I think.
    Yes, it’s nice to have finished the job! Soon be wondering where the next one is coming from, of course … meh, freelancing. I know I’m lucky, though.

  245. carlie says

    Now we are at the funeral scene of Steel Magnolias; otherwise known as the point at which I almost always cry.

    Here! Hit Weezer!

  246. rq says

    mildlymagnificent
    I didn’t know that, either! Wow.
    As for making it through pregnancy without drugs, yeah, that’s a big one, because anything you take will have an effect (=automaticallyBAD!!!!) on the fetus (although I wonder about the effects of constant dehydration and an inability to keep nourishment down??).

  247. rq says

    opposablethumbs
    It’s always the same – dry spell, then huge rainy season, where I feel the need to accept (almost) every single job, because I know I need the reserves, even if I know it’ll be a hard haul (and possibly beyond my time-management abilities). Because it makes me feel guilty to say No. (Currently undergoing dry spell, with only minor correction work this week. Kind of relaxing, but a bit nerve-wracking – Will this month be a good month? Time management will suffer even more once I’m off the maternity leave (end of May). Eh.)

  248. says

    Before the 1950s when it became routine to replace lost fluids intravenously, Hyperemesis gravidarum was the principal cause of death of pregnant women.

    The thing many people don’t understand is that we don’t have low maternal death rates because pregnancy is a “safe, natural process” that results in a squeeeeee, baby!!!!!, but because we’ve gotten damn good at saving women. Many people don’t understand that many very dangerous conditions and situations don’t arise because we can prevent them or treat when they’re still easily controlled. People complain about 30 % c-section rates but not about a lack of dead women and brain-damaged children.

    Good luck for Spawn, opposablethumbs

  249. opposablethumbs says

    Thank you, Giliell! Much appreciated. They’re old enough to be doing potentially life-affecting exams and the like, but still young enough (well, #2 is anyway, plus the whole non-neurotypical thing) to have serious problems relating to focus and concentration and revising and all those good things (of course I know all kids who are lucky enough to go to school have to do this. I just think it’s tough for all of them!) . It’s going to be a long couple of months until exam season is over :-/

  250. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Threadrupt.

    chigau – Happy Birthday! And feel better too.

    The Mellow Monkey – I hope you feel better soon.

    Giliell – I’m sorry about your handbag. *hugs*

    Newcomers – Welcome to the Lounge!

    *pile of hugs and chocolate* – Take and/or distribute as needed.

  251. chigau (ouch ouch ouch) says

    Thank you all for the birthday wishes.
    I can almost hear again.
    *non-contact hugs for all*

  252. rq says

    chigau

    *non-contact hugs for all*

    Is that like the hug version of those French air kisses?

  253. Pteryxx says

    did I see some listings of awesome women a while back? Thanks to the dedication in “Voyage of the Damned”, add a couple more names to the list:

    Verity Lambert, original producer of Doctor Who and advocate for the Daleks;

    and Delia Derbyshire, the sound engineer who handcrafted the original Doctor Who theme in 1962.

  254. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Is that like the hug version of those French air kisses?

    Wouldn’t a “French air kiss” be a lizard impression?

  255. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    rowanvt, I like your plan.
    :)

    opposablethumbs, I will keep my tentacles crossed for your Spawns.
     
    And you are so a regular! I am terrible with names, and I recognise your ‘nym, so you must be a regular.
    :)

    Oh, and apparently I came here to “find allies” to “back me up”, and not because it’s, you know, a safe space.

    *scritches&catnip*
    Fuck that asshole running.
    Maybe we need a motto; something like, “Come for the allies, stay for the safe space!”, or vice versa.

    *gesture of non-threatening, non-intrusive support* for Cerebus, with a side order of Calming Manatees. In chocolate.

    cicely, they’re becoming genetically literate!!!

    *shaking head in dismay*
    It’ll be thumbs, next; you mark my words.

    Anyway, vomiting sucks. Pregnancy is enough of a misery without it.

    Word.
    -

  256. Pteryxx says

    more for y’all sound buffs:

    History of the Doctor Who theme

    In 1963, when the job of producing the Doctor Who theme landed at Delia’s feet, there were no synthesisers. The sound for electronic music came either from pure electronic sources, or from recordings of actual live sounds – the precursor of what we now term “sampling”. But sampling now is easy: capture a sound, assign it to a range of notes on a keyboard, and play. But musique concrete was not so easy forty years ago.

    There being no “synthesisers”, the Workshop needed a source of electronic sound. They found this in a bank of twelve high-quality test tone generators, the usual function of which was to output various tones (square waves, sine waves) for passing through electronic circuits for testing gain, distortion and so on. They also had a couple of high-quality equalisers (again, test equipment – equalisers, or “tone controls”, were not that easy to come by at the time) and a few other gadgets including a “wobbulator” (a low frequency oscillator) and a white noise generator.

    Each sound in the Doctor Who theme was individually created using these instruments, and recorded to magnetic tape. By “each individual sound” I mean just that – each note was individually hand-crafted. The swooping sounds were created by manually adjusting the pitch of the oscillator to a carefully-timed pattern. The rhythmic hissing sounds were created by filtering white noise to “colour” it, as were the “bubbles” and “clouds”. Examination of the original makeup tapes suggests that one of the two bass lines alone is a “concrete” sound, a plucked string sample.

  257. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Top Porn downloaded at the Vatican

    Once you’ve seen the Sistine Chapel six or seven times, life in Vatican City can get a bit… boring (we imagine). So what else is there to do? According an analysis by TorrentFreak and Scaneye: download pirated porn.

    Using Scaneye’s data, TorrentFreak was able to take a look at which Bittorrent files were being downloaded by IP addresses located in Vatican City. Some of them were boring—The Americans; Love, Actually; Chicago Fire—and some of them were… more interesting. BDSM porn interesting:

  258. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Top Porn downloaded at the Vatican

    I still can’t believe it. I mean, all those movies sound like they feature adults. O.o

  259. says

    mythbri @273, I commend you for keeping the channels of communication open with your sister-in-law. Sometimes that can be really difficult with mormons. Their minds have been abused so much that I think of them as having Stockholm Syndrome when it comes to their relationships with mormon leaders.

    Speaking of mormons, here’s another tidbit from the General Conference that was held last weekend. This excerpt is from the speech given by the most holy of mormon holies, President, Revelator, Prophet, Seer, Apostle, and general all around Assholiness Himself, Thomas S. Monson:

    There is no need for you or for me, in this enlightened age when the fullness of the gospel has been restored, to sail uncharted seas or to travel unmarked roads in search of truth. A loving Heavenly Father has plotted our course and provided an unfailing guide — even obedience.

    Monson does have a way of summing up the worst aspects of mormonism. Very economical of him. Of course, he thinks he is summing up the best aspects of his faith, while the rest of the world can plainly seed that he is revealing the worst.

    Hugs to all who may be in the “retching ball of misery” phase of something or other. Plenty of hard times to go around. It’s nice to have Pharyngulites dish out a little understanding.

    Welcome to all the new folks. Don your brass breastplates even for the Lounge. Don’t mistake criticism for persecution.

  260. says

    Tony @300

    from your link @ 259:

    Complete sexual abstinence before marriage and total fidelity within marriage protect the sanctity of this sacred channel

    Does their version of the babble not mention men with multiple wives?
    Oh, and if the commandment is to fuck n breed, why the hell is marriage necessary for that? Shouldn’t they be in support of *any* kind of sex, so long as babies are produced?

    Like other religiously fervent people, mormons claim to read all their sacred texts, but really know very little of their own dogma. I see them as sitting in a Sunday service with a different god above each of their heads soaking up the worship or obedience or fear or repression, or baby-making impulses, etc.

    A lot of the illogic can be directly traced to brainwashing. Here is part of a lesson plan for a “Young Women’s activity” called Wedding Night – Virtue Activity: http://jeansyw.blogspot.com/2011/09/wedding-night-virtue-activity.html

    My personal epiphany about the strength and depth of mormon brainwashing around the issue of marriage, the temple, and children came when I stood in a restaurant line behind two teenage mormon boys, listening to them talk as they looked out the window at the Salt Lake temple. These two guys were young, 15 at the most. “Spring is a great time to get married in the temple.” “Yeah, if you schedule right after General Conference the flowers still look really good.” “I can’t wait.” “Wait for a girl who is worthy.” “Wait for the one who wants to be a Mother of Zion, they’re the best.”

    Here are ex-mormons discussing the use of Universities and missionary service to extend the mormon church’s brainwashing options: http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,854452,854639#msg-854639

  261. Hekuni Cat, MQG says

    Can anyone recommend a good textbook (or other book) on current theories in anthropology? Suggestions for websites are also welcome. Thank you.

  262. says

    David Corn of Mother Jones is the journalist who widely publicized the “47%” tape that revealed Mitt Romney’s true colors. Now Corn has gotten access to a new, secret tape, one of Smith McConnell and buddies planning to fight Ashely Judd by attacking her religion (stupidly), etc.

    Gross campaign tactics equal a tendency to engage in unethical governing tactics in my mind. This new tape also reveals that McConnell and his fellow Christian campaign team know little of their own theology. Judd once said:

    I still choose the God of my understanding as the God of my childhood. I have to expand my God concept from time to time, and you know particularly I enjoy native faith practices, and have a very nature-based God concept. I’d like to think I’m like St. Francis in that way. Brother Donkey, Sister Bird.

    McConnell and his team found this utterly hilarious, not realizing that Judd was referring to “well-known stories about St. Francis, who once preached a sermon to birds—’my little sisters’—and who referred to his own body as the ‘Brother Donkey.'”

    I guess there’s some kind of consistency in being ignorant on all levels.

  263. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Hekuni Cat:

    Will over at Skepchick would be awesome for that. Why not visit Skepchick & give him a shout?

  264. says

    Chris:

    Just received email from Matt Penfold in which he calls me “lying scum.” I suspect he won’t be back.

    Welcome to the “you must be lying!” club, Chris.

  265. opposablethumbs says

    Thank you for the crossed tentacles, cicely! It may be my memory failing, but I’m sure that kids now get put through even moar biggerer exam-hoops than my lot did … there’s no end to it! All tentacles gratefully received.
    .
    I guess I’m a sort of irregular regular – around quite a bit, but not as much as I’d like! :-)
    .
    Thinking of the wonderful people of the commentariat, the regular Horders (and future denizens of the Pharyngula Commune), though, there is a bit of advice I’d like to ask on behalf of one of my Spawn that I think the Horde could be extremely well-qualified to give –

    this is a young-adult Spawn, still a teenager, who’s having quite some issues with self-esteem/self-confidence and ability to relate well to others, form friendships etc. (and this is not my non-neurotypical Spawnlet but a (nominally at least) neurotypical person). She just told me that she’s looking for online resources that could be useful with trying to feel more positive about herself and maybe try and change some destructive patterns of behaviour (such as the habit of hiding a lack of social confidence behind an excess of snark which then has the effect of – quite understandably – turning people away, so a bit of a vicious circle there).

    I’d value any recommendations of online places to hang out, especially because I’m afraid that all too many such places will turn out to be “positive thinking” scams, basically, or tinged with concealed woo or with some sort of libertarian flavour of thought. For my part, my own favourite haunt and the best place for learning is right here! But Pharyngula might not be her cup of tea.

    So if anyone has any recommendations for woo-free, non-libertarian, woman-friendly hangouts I’d be very grateful. The only one that came to mind right away was Captain Awkward, which I’m going to recommend to her in case she hasn’t come across it yet (though afaik CA is not taking any new questions at the moment). But anything else kind of Captain-Awkward-like, maybe … ???

    Anyway, thank you for being the people who make this the place (the only one yet) where I’ve got the nerve to even ask.

    Nearly suppertime in these parts now, but I’m going to pop back later tonight. ::waves::

  266. says

    Dalillama:

    Huh. Apparently I’ve missed something the past few days.

    I imagine Matt’s upsetty about Chris’s contributions to the M. Thatcher thread.

    Pteryxx:

    (Trigger warning for that thread. I’m NOT going back to read it.)

    I don’t even like thinking about it.

  267. Pteryxx says

    I don’t even like thinking about it.

    Caine: same. I got sick immediately on reading Chris’s comment, and some ten minutes later, figured out why.

    (Then I closed the tab. Learning to do better…)

  268. says

    Pteryxx:

    same. I got sick immediately on reading Chris’s comment, and some ten minutes later, figured out why.

    Same reaction here. Pit of the stomach, bad. That whole thing turned out to be one of my worst triggers ever. Can’t say I’ll be upset if Matt never shows his face here again.

  269. says

    Pteryxx:

    Caine: same. I got sick immediately on reading Chris’s comment, and some ten minutes later, figured out why.

    Shit. I’m sorry.

  270. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Some of you having a rough time, and people disappearing for a while worry me. Take care, everyone! I hope things will get better soon.

    /anxious

  271. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Boysenberry syrup is far nastier than blueberry.

    That was a baaad thread.

    No sheep!
    *also shudders*
    -

  272. glodson says

    Just a random posting: I hate the First Cause argument. The most disheartening thing is that even if you show why it is wrong, the person using it will ignore every point you make and say you didn’t get it.

    It is a petty and stupid thing, I know, but fuck.

  273. says

    Republican legislators in North Carolina are adding yet another stupid proposal to their already long list of Big-Government-disguised-as-law-and-order bills.

    Despite the fact that a similar program failed miserably in Florida, North Carolina politicians have decided to require mandatory drug testing for all welfare recipients. And the welfare recipients will have to pay $100 each for the test. They will supposedly get a refund if their drug test is negative. Nobody knows from whence this refund money will come. It’s not in the budget.

    http://www.wral.com/drug-testing-for-benefits-raises-tempers-questions/12320720/

    … Tempers flared after Bill Rowe with the N.C. Justice Center told lawmakers similar legislation in Florida and Michigan has been struck down by courts as unconstitutional.

    “Our Fourth Amendment doesn’t allow suspicion-less testing of people,” Rowe said. “There’s no decision that says this is OK.”

    Rowe also cited studies that show drug use is no more common among TANF recipients than in the general public.

    Sen. Tommy Tucker, R-Union, argued with Rowe.

    “You’re OK with (drug users) getting federal dollars if they’ve had a doobie and get the munchies and need more food stamps?” Tucker asked. “Sit down.”

    Bryant said the bill exposes its supporters’ “prejudice,” noting that it affects “mostly poor people and a significant number of them people of color.”

    “There’s a lot of people getting government money,” she said. “Let’s not start with poor people on this. Let’s start with ourselves. When you run for election, you should have to take a drug test. If we give a scholarship, you should have to take a drug test.” …

    Before the similar program in Florida was thrown out by the courts as unconstitutional, Florida spent a whole bunch of taxpayer money on it. In other words, Republicans violated people’s rights, added a shitload of bureaucracy to already bureaucratic system, and spent money on a program that was a guaranteed failure. North Carolina Republicans, get a clue.

  274. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    I got sick immediately on reading Chris’s comment, and some ten minutes later, figured out why.

    Um, would it be appropriate to ask for an explanation (of the reaction and context, not necessarily from Pteryxx) or no? :/

  275. says

    Azkyroth, see Pteryxx’s link @ 353. In a thread about rape culture, Matt Penfold cited a recent case in the UK where one person was convicted, the other person wasn’t. There was, it turns out, a misunderstanding of a new law in the UK, however, Matt Penfold spent that thread calling several people liars, myself among them, claiming that we’d rather see a rapist go free than convicted. I was severely triggered (there were also posts on the thunderdome thread of the time about the real time reactions) and so were quite a few other people.

  276. says

    Azkyroth
    Short form, the thread was about rape culture, the individual under discussion played stupid victim-blaming games and levelled absurd and triggering accusations at survivors in the thread, among other asshole behaviors.

    Pteryxx
    I hadn’t realized I hadn’t seen him since then, but now as I think of it I don’t think
    I have.
    Caine
    He’s a Thatcher fan too? Wow, just when I thought he couldn’t get any more charming.

    Apologies to all who were triggered by that thread/the reminder of it which I induced.

  277. Xaivius says

    Lynna, OM@365

    Infuriating Bullshit

    WHAT THE EVERLIVING FUCK!? I despise people that seem to think that the poor and destitute need to have their noses rubbed in shit every time they seek to access their rightful benefits? If you’re applying for foodstamps, at least in WA state, they make damn sure you need them, but there are no questions after that. It’s assumed you’re an adult, and can manage on the budget they give you.

    Fuck rich plutocratic shithead like Sen. Tommy Tucker.

  278. rq says

    Azkyroth
    Did you read the thread?
    I don’t want to go into detail without their permission (Pteryxx and Caine). Maybe best in the Thunderdome.

  279. Pteryxx says

    Azkyroth: I had the trigger reaction immediately, without (consciously) recognizing the name or context. I figured those out later. (who is that and why am I throwing up…)

  280. chigau (ouch ouch ouch) says

    That thread is still open.
    Anyone who wants to discuss it can go over there.

  281. says

    I have my handbag back!!!!
    Money’s gone, mobile is gone (have fun with it, piece of shit. It’s locked anyway so you can’t make calls on my bill and it’s been acting up the last weeks), but my wallet with all the fucking documents is back.
    At about 3pm I got a call from a woman who looked up my number because she had found the bag in a litterbox about 5 miles from here. I’d lost the bag in front of the house…
    This is evidence that people are both horrible and great. The wonderful, wonderful woman apologized a million times for having looked through my handbag and in my wallet to find out who I am and because she had thought for a moment that I must be an idiot to throw away my handbag…
    She would have even brought it to me (I went to pick it up). I haz a happy.

  282. rq says

    YAAAAAY Giliell!!
    I have, previously, also been surprised at the honesty and general kindness of people in similar situations; I’m extremely glad for you!
    (Too bad about the phone and the cash, but at least you have all your cards back. *confetti&fireworks*)

  283. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Oh. The link was right to Chris’s comment so I thought there was some cultural or news reference for blueberries/syrup/pancakes I wasn’t getting. :(

  284. says

    Azkyroth:

    Oh. The link was right to Chris’s comment so I thought there was some cultural or news reference for blueberries/syrup/pancakes I wasn’t getting. :(

    That was just me wresting control of the thread from Penfold by culinary means.

  285. says

    I have read through some of lofgren’s “arguments” though and I think I’ve realized that I fucking despise “devil’s advocate” and anyone who ever practices it with the fury of a thousand hateful suns.

    In a recent edition of “Yo, Is This Racist?”, Andrew Ti suggested that we keep bottles of holy water handy so that whenever someone claims to be “playing devil’s advocate”, you just whip out the bottle of holy water, throw it in their face, and start exorcising them.

  286. rq says

    SallyStrange
    Well, just because they work for the devil is no reason to assume they’re actually possessed. ;)

  287. says

    Well, just because they work for the devil is no reason to assume they’re actually possessed. ;)

    True, but you know. Better safe than sorry. If they’re not possessed then they just get a wet face.

  288. opposablethumbs says

    Thanks, Dalillama, I appreciate it anyway! Glad to say that she seems pretty pleased to have been introduced to Captain Awkward at any rate – which is a site I only came to know of thanks to Pharyngula in the first place (I’m not quite sure but I think it might have been Pteryxx – so a big thank-you to Pteryxx, because that site looks like being a help to Spawn).

    I really hope that your partners are able to get some of the help they need, Dalillama. Only wish I could help with that :-(
    .
    Great news that you at least got the bag and cards back, Giliell!

  289. JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness says

    Yeah, that thread was a bad thread but I went back through it to find the pancake recipe. YAY for that.

    And I also realized marilove lives in the same type of utilities included AC or Heat controlled by management apartment complex as I do. And in Phoenix too. The fact a horde member lives in my area is both exciting and scary. Exciting because omg I’m not alone! Scary only because “omg what if she sees me and tells everyone how horrible I look!” kind of insecure thoughts spring up. I’m a wreck right now. Depression sucks. Being poor sucks.

    Damn, and I have to wait til the Little One gets back to make pancakes. She loves pancakes and there’s no way I’m doing everything twice.

  290. Walton says

    “Playing devil’s advocate” is the sort of thing I and my then-friends used to do at the age of nineteen or so, when, to be blunt, we were sheltered privileged idiots who thought we were clever.

    These days it just pisses me off. Political discourse isn’t some abstruse academic pursuit in which people indulge for the love of argument. It’s about the real lives of human beings. When I criticize immigration controls, I’m criticizing a system which is inflicting violence and oppression on people – disproportionately, on people of colour from the developing world – every day. I don’t have any patience for white dudebros who want to “debate” immigration, and pride themselves on what good “debaters” they are, when they have no understanding of the actual human impact of the policies they’re “debating”.

  291. Walton says

    On a related note, I am so sick of Britain’s Tory government. They’re systematically waging war on immigrants and on the working classes. Every new policy is worse than the last. I used to think New Labour were bad, until this happened.

    (If Nick Gotts is reading: yes, I have to admit that you were absolutely right about this, back in 2010. And I was wrong.)

  292. birgerjohansson says

    “Der Steppenworm? Two new species differ from the elusive ‘Mongolian Death Worm’ ” http://phys.org/news/2013-04-der-steppenworm-species-differ-elusive.html

    A cryptid called “The Mongolian Death Worm” deserves to exist! If not now, then after I get my lab upgraded.
    — — — —
    Didn’t Steppenwolf make a song named “Monster”? It is supposed to be impossible to buy the record because unpatriotic.
    — — —
    At Scienceblogs, Aardvarchaeology has a thread about how Christianity accidentally made Buddha a Christian saint (he was of course already the Buddhist equivalent of a saint). Poor translations were involved, Indian-Persian, Persian-Arab. Arab-Latin.

  293. says

    I’ve had more than my share of experiences in which medical bills almost bankrupt me. In the USA, a self-employed writer is, like many, just one medical emergency away from homelessness. A new article in The New York Review of Books, Health Care: The New American Sadism by Charles Simic takes a look at the healthcare fiasco.

    Excerpts:

    The good man understands what is right,
    the bad man understands profit.—Confucius

    You may have already read or heard about Steven Brill’s excellent, long article in Time magazine, called “Bitter Pill: Why Medical Bills Are Killing Us.” … Brill documents how a trip to the emergency room for chest pains that turn out to be indigestion can exceed the cost of a semester of college, how simple lab work done during a few days in a hospital can be more expensive than a new car, and how a drug that requires $300 to make and that the manufacturer sells to a hospital for $3,000–3,500, can cost the patient to whom it is prescribed $13,702. He looks closely at the outrageous prices on itemized hospital bills and finds that individual services listed on them have been priced at double and triple what those same services cost separately—for reasons neither the patient understands nor the hospital can explain. And he recounts the horror stories of people reduced to penury after a brief hospital stay, even though they had some health insurance, money in the bank, and suffered from only minor ailments.

    Put simply, Brill says, these bills tell us there’s no free market in our healthcare system, that hospitals set their rates knowing that someone in pain or in fear for his or her life is not going to ask to see the price list first before agreeing to some test or treatment. It’s no wonder that 60 percent of our fellow Americans who file for personal bankruptcy each year do so because of medical costs….

    Today, when the acquisition of wealth, quickly and in large amounts, is admired above any other human endeavor, every medical emergency or catastrophic illness is seen as an opportunity for some to enrich themselves beyond their wildest dreams. ….

    If the elderly and the poor are stripped of the few protections these government programs [Medicare and Medicaid] give them, they’ll be left at the mercy of a medical industry and insurance companies … what is being offered to the American people is nothing more than thinly-disguised money-making scams….

    This is the new face of American sadism … Everything from the healthcare industry, payday loans, and for-profit prisons to the trading in so-called derivatives, privatization of public education, outsourcing of jobs, war profiteering, and hundreds of other ongoing rackets all have that same predatory quality. ….

  294. says

    Link to an excerpt from the Time article by Steven Brill which is mentioned in post #389.

    Excerpt from the excerpt:

    In hundreds of small and midsize cities across the country- from Stamford Conn., to Marlton, N.J., to Oklahoma City- the American health care market has transformed tax-exempt “nonprofit” hospitals into the towns’ most profitable businesses and largest employers, often presided over by the regions’ most richly compensated executives. And in our largest cities, the system offers lavish paychecks even to second-tier hospital managers, like the 14 administrators at New York City’s Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center who are paid over $500,000 a year, including six who make over a $1 million.

    Taken as a whole, these powerful institutions and the bills they churn out dominate the nation’s economy and put demands on taxpayers to a degree unequaled anywhere else on earth. We now spend almost 20% of our gross domestic product on health care, compared with about half that in most developed countries. Yet in every measurable way, the results our health care system produces are no better and often worse than the outcomes in those countries.

  295. says

    From the comments below the Time article (see 390):

    When the elderly leave a physical rehab after a stay for knee surgery etc. they are often sent home with a wheelchair instead of just asking a family member to purchase one. THIS IS A RENT TO OWN SCAM. Places like Orbit Medical Supply in the Midwest will bill Medicare hundreds of dollars each month. I checked Medicare statements of a family friend that this happened to. On the back of the Medicare statement it tells you that these are charges that will be sent to Medicare for 13 months, at which time the chair belongs to you. 13 MONTHS! The chair should be made of gold. Multiply these payments by the hundreds of thousands of people that this happens to. I know the Scooter Store is being investigated, but how about the other vendors like Orbit?

  296. opposablethumbs says

    “Playing devil’s advocate” is the sort of thing I and my then-friends used to do at the age of nineteen or so, when, to be blunt, we were sheltered privileged idiots who thought we were clever.

    These days it just pisses me off. Political discourse isn’t some abstruse academic pursuit in which people indulge for the love of argument. It’s about the real lives of human beings. When I criticize immigration controls, I’m criticizing a system which is inflicting violence and oppression on people – disproportionately, on people of colour from the developing world – every day. I don’t have any patience for white dudebros who want to “debate” immigration, and pride themselves on what good “debaters” they are, when they have no understanding of the actual human impact of the policies they’re “debating”.

    Walton, I don’t think I’ve said this before and I hope you don’t mind if I get kind of effusive and say I really really like and admire the person who just wrote that. I wasn’t around way back when, but from what I’ve gathered about your history since I started hanging out here (and from what I’ve read directly of yours, of course) I have So. Much. respect for you.

    Just wanted to mention that.

    And yes, the US healthcare system is the pits.

  297. says

    Yes, we haven’t yet seen all of the dirt hidden under the rug of Scientology. Some of the facts we’ve seen before resurface in the April issue of The New York Review of Books, but with an emphasis that drives them home. Diane Johnson wrote the review.

    Excerpt:

    One of Wright’s [Lawrence Wright, author of Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, and the Prison of Belief] most shocking accounts reveals how the IRS was intimidated into allowing Scientology the status of a religion: Wright found that when in 1993 the IRS sent a bill to Scientology for $1 billion in back taxes, Scientologists infiltrated it, IRS agents were threatened, their lives became a sea of legal and domestic torments. “Some government workers,” according to Wright, “were getting anonymous calls in the middle of the night, or finding that their pets had disappeared. Whether or not these events were part of the Scientology onslaught, they added to the paranoia many in the agency were feeling.” The agency had to defend against more than two thousand legal actions. It eventually capitulated to the church’s campaign of lawsuits and harassment, reduced the amount owed to $12.5 million, and most usefully for the Scientologists, acceded to its wish to be categorized as a religion, which saves it untold sums of future taxes. (Scientology has not been given official recognition as a religion in France, Germany, Greece, and Belgium, among other nations.)

    These disturbing reports may have practical implications for the rest of us. Apart from its damage to individual lives, Scientology, according to Wright, has mounted an unprecedented program of infiltration of government agencies and bodies—even private organizations like the American Medical Association and the Better Business Bureau….

    Wright gives an account of Scientology’s resolute prosecutions of its critics; it cannot tolerate apostasy or independent conclusions, and often pursues fallen-away members it seems from mere vindictiveness as well as to protect its “secrets.” He notes that “one might compare today’s Scientology with the [Mormon] Church of Latter Day Saints, a new religion of the previous century,” mentioning parallels between the two groups that include “wealth, secrecy, lying leaders.”…

  298. Xaivius says

    Walton@387

    Immigration

    Just a small derail, Walton. I think I get what you’re driving at here: My interpretation of this is that you’re advocating that senselessly positing horrible arguments is not conducive to a solution that isn’t horrific,.but it seems to sound somewhat to me like you’d want to discourage all debate on such matters. In this example, there are legitimate issues that need to be covered re: Taxation, citizenship status and progression, dealing with the occasional malcontent, etc. that all need to be reviewed. I might also be completely off the mark on what your getting at, so please let me know if that’s the case

  299. says

    Xaivius, Walton would never think of discouraging discussion on immigration. He’s quite disgusted by the all too real attitudes of too many people, though. Walton’s one of the good guys and I’m sure he’d be willing to have a long discussion, if his workload permitted.

  300. Xaivius says

    Caine (rushing out the door): I think in my confusion I didn’t include the fact that I’m more trying to get at the attitude indicated. Apologies for any misconstruction of other’s words, I don’t really have a feel for people’s styles and views quite yet.

  301. Xaivius says

    Finishing my previous thought now that i have a few minutes: I think the issue is the specific criticisms and issues that are being debated. I’m pretty sure I need more context at this point to understand where Walton is coming from on this.

  302. says

    And I also realized marilove lives in the same type of utilities included AC or Heat controlled by management apartment complex as I do. And in Phoenix too. The fact a horde member lives in my area is both exciting and scary. Exciting because omg I’m not alone! Scary only because “omg what if she sees me and tells everyone how horrible I look!” kind of insecure thoughts spring up. I’m a wreck right now. Depression sucks. Being poor sucks.

    OMG, yes, you guys are near each other! Well, after rooming with Marilove for three days and nights in Austin, I can tell you: you have nothing to worry about. She is just the sweetest, funniest person you can think of.

    Now, I don’t know how you compare to me, but when hanging out with Marilove, the similarities in our formative experiences (growing up rural and isolated) and our outlook on life, preferences, and philosophies were a bit disconcerting. It was pretty fecking awesome. I am psyched to think of her meeting you. She has plenty of nieces and nephews, so she’s fine with kids. Like me. Heh.

    *happy hugs* This is a good thing.

  303. says

    Xaivius, Walton is a *long* time regular here, and an OM. He’s studying to be a barrister and I believe he’ll be doing immigration law. Walton is a compassionate person who understands the reality of an immigrant’s life and has little patience with the kneejerk bigotry that has become common place in the UK, and indeed, everywhere else.

    I think that’s enough of me trying to talk for Walton, he can handle the rest if and when he has time.

  304. carlie says

    I like to think I’m not that introvered of a person, but then a day like today happens and I have literally 7 hours of straight meetings with no break and I’m fine, fine! Except that during the lunch meeting the speaker’s microphone was too loud and people next to me were talking while he was and they were too loud and it was so annoying but everything was fine and the meetings were all good! And productive! But then I came home and suddenly could do nothing but crawl into bed and pull the covers up and stay there the rest of the evening with the door closed. Blargh.

  305. Xaivius says

    Caine, Wonder-wench@403

    No worries, Caine. As I stated before, I needed some context, which you have helpfully provided, and I’m now much more confident in my former view of the issue.

    ***update***
    It appears the usage of terms is what’s confusing me: I seem to be confusing Devil’s Advocatry for opposing argument. The former is being a fucking shitstain and bringing up “debate points” during a conversation that is clearly not a debate, or attempting to Spock, or essentially denying the humanity of the speaker or their position. An opposing argument is usually an attempt to see a point from another side in good faith, without dehumanizing the participants, or if relevant, the subjects.
    This revelation brought to me by reading Gawker commentary on the Rehtaeh Parsons story. I now fully refute my commentary on Walton’s statement and fully agree with them. Fuck devil’s advocatry, That shit needs to get right the fuck out.
    Sorry for being dense. Again. :(

  306. John Morales says

    Xaivius, the colloquial usage is not the formal meaning of devil’s advocacy.

    (Also, you aren’t refuting your earlier commentary — you’re repudiating it)

  307. John Morales says

    carlie, the degree of cuteness is truly unutterable.

    Xaivius, relax!

    In my own way, I follow the Silver Rule.

    (And welcome to Pharyngula! :) )

    Hey, morgan.

    No welcome for you, you’re no neophyte.

  308. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    Wheelychair!!!! Some assembly acquired! Tomorrow, I’m gonna take it out for a spin.
    :)

    Giliell, I’m glad you got your handbag back. It’s nice to be reminded that there are people who will go out of their way to help, even if it’s a complete stranger.
    As you said; “horrible and great”.

    At Scienceblogs, Aardvarchaeology has a thread about how Christianity accidentally made Buddha a Christian saint (he was of course already the Buddhist equivalent of a saint). Poor translations were involved, Indian-Persian, Persian-Arab. Arab-Latin.

    And hilarity ensued!
    :D

    Walton: What with a new Rape-Denialist Thread (early days, yet, but we all know how this goes), and the sharp reminder of how deeply and malevolently full of Suck and FAIL the USAian “health care system” is, the manatee was very welcome. Thank you!

    *hugs* for carlie.

    Speaking of which, ferrets playing in packing peanuts. Seriously. Watch.

    Awesome! Between the manatee and the ferrets, the day is saved!
     
    Now imagine the whole thing with a trampoline for a pool-bottom.
    :) :) :)
    -

  309. Portia says

    cicely
    WOoooooooooo new chair! :D:D:D:D

    Giliell
    Hooray for returned bag with the essentials still in there! Hooray for kind strangers!

    JAL
    Hugs. Depression lies.

    Newbies
    Welcome :) Glad to see you.

    =====

    Ever have a day filled with casual sexism and then get home and chat with one of your only friends that is progressive and sensitive enough to usual grok it and then…you get some awful dudebro yuk-yuks instead of empathy? Ugh. He basically said “I wish I got that kind of sexism!” Feeling you on the introversion, carlie. : /

  310. says

    Sorry to spam, I know this is my third post in a row, but I just noticed Caine’s new ‘nym, and I wanted to inquire about it.
    Caine,if you don’t mind my asking, am I correct that it is in a dialect of Sioux? Regardless of the answer to the prior one, I would also be interested in a translation.

  311. ednaz says

    Hello All!

    Warning: There are many exclamation points in the following post. Please take the proper precautions. Thank You.

    Good Grief, Carlie! 7 straight hours of meetings isn’t enough for one day??
    Damn, Woman! You deserve a medal!

    (You do not ever get to look at my schedule.) : D

    Popcorn Ferrets!!! SQUEE!!!

    Cicely! Wheelychair!!! Yay!!
    Want to hear MORE about it!!

    Walton, I love the manatee! Thanks!!

    Giliell, So glad your handbag is back! : ) So glad you were spared the PITA of replacing all your papers. (Whew!)

    -

  312. Beatrice (looking for a happy thought) says

    Yay for the cicely’s wheelchair and Giliell getting her documents back!
    It’s good to read Walton again.

  313. rq says

    I don’t know Walton (being too new), but I like what I read. (I like your posts, Walton!)

    cicely
    Is it fast enough to outrun Peas? Horses? Peas and Horses?
    I hope it’s faster than this!

  314. says

    opposablethumbs:
    My first thought is along the lines of how you feel about this space. If your daughter-spawn could find somewhere online similar to this space, the community could be beneficial to her. Unfortunately, I have no idea how one would go about looking for a safe space online. Many, many hugs for her. For that matter, hugs to you as well.

  315. says

    Dalillama:

    Caine,if you don’t mind my asking, am I correct that it is in a dialect of Sioux? Regardless of the answer to the prior one, I would also be interested in a translation.

    It’s Oglala Lakota. It means flower of evil, same as my usual Fleur du mal.

  316. Walton says

    Xaivius: Oh, I certainly didn’t mean that people shouldn’t be talking about immigration. Quite the opposite – I think progressives should be talking about immigrants’ rights much more than they currently are.

    My own view is a radical one: I think it’s wrong to discriminate against people based on their birth and ancestry, and I advocate legal status for everyone and an end to the system of immigration controls. No person should ever be labelled “illegal”. I base this on experience of the system, having been involved in immigrants’ rights activism in two countries now, and a knowledge of the impact that it has on people. It is, I think, wrong that people are imprisoned in detention centres, deprived of basic civil rights, separated from their families, and deported – often to dangerous parts of the world – merely for being foreign. Unfortunately, there’s a growing private security industry which profits from the oppression of immigrants – see this post at Tiger Beatdown on the role of G4S in immigration detention and removal.

    For an insight into the US system, I’d really recommend the PBS documentary Lost in Detention, which is a horrifying insight into the system of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) detention. Immigration detainees in the US have no right to publicly-funded legal representation in Immigration Court, so most have to represent themselves, and even those who do have a claim to immigration relief often don’t get what they’re entitled to. The framework of US immigration law provides no route for most undocumented people to acquire legal status. Sometimes parents are taken away from their children (even where the children are US citizens!) and families are broken up. The number of deportations has reached record levels under the Obama administration. And because of the “Secure Communities” program, which involves local and state police in enforcing immigration law, increasing numbers of undocumented people get turned over to ICE by local police, sometimes after being arrested for a traffic offence or for no reason at all (racial profiling is rife). I really hope that the Obama administration and Congress come up with a workable immigration reform proposal very soon. It is desperately needed.

    Sorry for the lengthy post, I just thought I should explain fully what I meant.

  317. Walton says

    And yes, I’ve been here (on and off) since May 2008. At the time, I was a week shy of my 19th birthday, and was for many years a fervent libertarian. However, I got better.

  318. rq says

    Walton
    Congratulations on your recovery! :)
    What convinced you, if I may ask? (I have a friend I would like to try to convert, although he’s pretty set in his thinking that Libertarian economics will save the world; he doesn’t really get much past the economics, though, and every question about social justice stumps him, while his stock answer is ‘It will be voluntary!’ Any suggestions?)

  319. Walton says

    What convinced you, if I may ask? (I have a friend I would like to try to convert, although he’s pretty set in his thinking that Libertarian economics will save the world; he doesn’t really get much past the economics, though, and every question about social justice stumps him, while his stock answer is ‘It will be voluntary!’ Any suggestions?)

    I think the basic conceptual problem with libertarianism is that, while libertarians espouse the values of voluntariness and non-coercion, they don’t usually take into account the fact that the existing political and economic order has been created by centuries of institutionalized coercion. The distribution of wealth and property as we know it today didn’t arise in a vacuum; it arose as a result of centuries of colonialism, land theft, slavery, forced labour, union-busting, and other large-scale violence against the poor, indigenous peoples and minorities. Much libertarian philosophy is grounded in an utterly mythical view of how property rights work – Rothbard’s “homestead principle” ignores the reality of the massive violence, exploitation and naked theft that was involved in actual historical colonization, for instance.

    Libertarians say that they want a society where the only or main role of the state is to protect people from violence, to protect private property rights, and to enforce contracts. But the reality is that if this were accomplished, it would mean a state which does nothing except protect the property and privileges of the rich, and resist any attempt by the poor to redress the inequalities built into the system. It isn’t “voluntary” when some people hold all the wealth and power because their ancestors were the most successful killers in a given locality. And “voluntary” solutions won’t redress those systematic injustices.

    This is mainly a criticism of deontological libertarians. Some libertarians (particularly those who follow Friedman or Hayek) take a more consequentialist view, arguing that free markets are best because they promote human welfare more effectively than any other form of social organization. To those people, I would point out the horrifying impact that austerity and privatization and cuts are having on the poorest and most marginalized. And the utter failure of charitable and private efforts to alleviate mass poverty and suffering before the advent of the welfare state. I, for one, don’t want to go back to the Gilded Age.

  320. rq says

    Walton
    Thank you for that.
    I have questions, but I’m not sure how to phrase them to make sense… Essentially, what I’ve heard from my libertarian friend is that:
    1) the economy should return to a free-market state, that way everything will get cheaper because everyone will want to be the best choice for customers;
    2) charity works on a volunteer basis, and the assumption is that there will always be enough people volunteering time and money to help those less fortunate (and by ‘less fortunate’ he means people with disabilities who cannot physically work; anyone else should just work harder)
    3) he has no good answer to the question of discrimination (whether by race, gender, age, etc.) – supposedly, since everyone will have ‘equal footing’ and will be judged purely by their abilities, everyone will have an equal chance of making it, and the strongest will prevail – what he doesn’t address is people’s ingrained biases, which won’t disappear overnight simply through the application of libertarianism; do libertarians have an answer to that, or do they just prefer to ignore that kind of initial disparity?
    4) out of curiosity, how does the libertarian mindset arise? what influences one to think like that in the first place? (I understand that reasons may be individual to each libertarian, also depending on which kind of libertarianism they follow, but I’m curious about the mindset that, more or less, ignores the humanity of everyone but themselves. How does that work?)
    I don’t know if any of these questions/comments make sense, I’m throwing them out there quickly because I have about 2 minutes left before my time will be absorbed by children again. If there is anything unclear, I’ll try to clarify in a while; if you don’t want to talk about this/answer questions, just say so and I won’t bother you again!

  321. opposablethumbs says

    cicely, yay and hooray for the wheelychair!!!! sparklesconfettistreamers! Will it have go-faster stripes?
    .
    Thank you Tony. I agree – and I also have no idea what spaces there might be out there or how to find them :-(

    But there’s always the chance that something might be known to the mighty Horde, I suppose (after all, I wouldn’t have known about Captain Awkward if it weren’t for Pharyngula) :-)

    I hope Ogvorbis is just busy. Ogvorbis, if you’re reading, hope we hear from you soon!
    .
    When libertarians fantasise about their ideal society, of course they always imagine themselves at the top of the heap. If only they could spend a little time in their own dream societies (in holodeck fashion) at the bottom – without the economic, educational and social capital they have accrued from their forebears in this one.
    I actually had a very brief version of this discussion with a neighbour a little while ago; he was talking about a “self-made” entrepreneur he’d met, and for once I managed to point out that this person’s business success was built on the backs of an educated and law-abiding workforce and a massive social and physical infrastructure – not in a vacuum but on communications, transport, health provision, education, social services, law-and-order, social and economic stability. Hell, I didn’t even get around to the bloke’s own educational advantages, social and business contacts and inherited capital.
    Why can I grasp this, even if only a very little, in writing here but can barely string a dozen words together in rl? The neighbour was basically on board with this, but I have no illusions that the “self-made” businessman he had met would have talked rings round me in seconds.
    It’s very frustrating, being neither eloquent nor forceful, when you want to talk about something important :-(

  322. rq says

    opposablethumbs
    Yeah, my libertarian friend is a ring-talker, too. :(
    But you brought up a point I forgot: the whole infrastructure question, a pretty big one – it’s all been built, but it needs repairs. And it’s a lovely thought to keep it in repair via voluntary donations, etc., but we already know how hard it is to get people to donate to projects that seem unnecessary. By the same token, I expect that, a road, while still driveable, is ok, and people will not be willing to donate towards its upkeep (except by coercion), until it is way beyond any cheap repair and needs a serious overhaul – at which point nobody can or wants to afford doing it, so nothign much gets done, and soon we’re back to no infrastructure at all… And even if the majority of people pitch in, it takes one or two (rich?) assholes to refuse to pay their share to make things miserable for everyone (of course, then they can blame everyone else for not volunteering enough funds/expertise/whatever-else).
    And yes, libertarians see themselves at the top… which is why my friend is so constantly confused about his own position in the world (not the lowest, but definitely not the top) – he works damn hard, he does what he can, and yet – why isn’t his ascent that much more rapid??

  323. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    Oh so threadrupt, and trying to sustain a weak joke that is now days old. I is a sorry excuse for Hoardling, I is.

    More skin as requested.

  324. chigau (ouch) says

    FossilFishy
    tsk
    Not “drum” skin!
    (but you knew that)
    and wasn’t there dancing?

  325. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    Heh. But the question is: have I been put here to test your faith?

  326. blf says

    A not-so-amusing feckup in Canada, Canadian birth control recall — for placebos instead of real pills:

    Here’s one of those screw-ups whose impact would be significantly dampened if it wasn’t covered up by the drug corps responsible. Users of [birth control pill] Alysena-28, by Canadian drug company Apotex, should check their pills’ batch number.

    Apotex says one batch of the Alysena-28 may contain two weeks of placebo sugar pills instead of one, adding the error can reduce the effectiveness of the pills and raises the possibility of unplanned pregnancy. …

  327. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    Can I raise the Horde-help banner? A friend who is in NYC has been booted by her family for the pernicious crime of being an atheist. They’ve also told the cops that she’s violent (she is not). Is there anyone in NYC who (1) could offer legal advice on how to deal with this, or (2) could offer/point in the direction of a place for her to go? She’s currently in a hotel, but her wallet is hurting.

  328. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    I have 3.5 hours before I have to leave for my exam.

    To complete the studying I set for myself, I need at least 1 more hour, possibly as many as 2.

    I need 1 hour for cooking/eating breakfast and making tea.

    I think I’m actually going to be on time to my exam.

    Of course, the studying I set for myself and the studying I need are 2 different things, but, hey. What’s a little panic attack between friends, er, questions?

    Yeah, okay. I won’t be prepared the way I want to be, but I think all my minimum goals for myself will be met. That’s something.

    See y’all when I’m eating breakfast & then not until after my first exam (of 5, on a w/f; m/w/f ached). At least the 2 papers are done & over.

  329. FossilFishy(Anti-Vulcanist) says

    Can’t help with 1 or 2 Esteleth, but I stand willing and able to chip in some cash should that become necessary.

  330. Esteleth, stupid fucking starchild Tolkien worshiping douche says

    *busts out pompons*

    C-R-I-P-D-Y-K-E!! C-R-I-P-D-Y-K-E!! What does that spell? CRIP DYKE!! SHE’S AWESOME! AND SHE’S GONNA DO GREAT ON HER EXAMS!

  331. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Some libertarians (particularly those who follow Friedman or Hayek) take a more consequentialist view, arguing that free markets are best because they promote human welfare more effectively than any other form of social organization. To those people, I would point out the horrifying impact that austerity and privatization and cuts are having on the poorest and most marginalized

    Most libertarians are consequentialists to some degree. They think libertarianism will function better in practice, therefore, follow the rules.

    The real problem with libertarianism is that it is a strictly mathematical utilitarianism. They won’t always call it that, but that’s what it is. What makes it horrible is that they have chosen values for your happiness/utility, then they’ve plugged their values for your happiness in X situation into their model, and Poof! They’ve solved the equation of your happiness using the values they’ve supplied and, there it is: The equation clearly indicates you should be a libertarian!

    It’s all the intellectual rigor of the most simplified, Vulcan utilitarianism, with all the charm of a Scientologist chasing after you to give you the results of your involuntary Electropsychometer reading sessions.

  332. Portia, worn out says

    Good luck Crip Dyke! (Sorry it’s taking me so long to respond to your last email). Remember, those people who say “You didn’t catch that?” after the exam are probably wrong. : ) You got this.

  333. blf says

    Another physics loon has popped up at Ben Goldacre’s Bad Science (Dr Goldacre and his blog are two of the genuine good guys, for those who have been hiding under a rock the last few years…). From Light is not reflected off mass so that we can se it:

    The presumptions in science that light reflects off mass so we can see it, is wrong and not the way it is.

    Light is a constant state, one wavelenght, the spectrum is a bi product of one frequency.

    A change in the frequency, ‘mass in its way’, we see that change, hence colors , and do not need to have a reflection of rays to our eyes, this works the same and is more plausable.

    The usual Bad Science crowd is in fine form:

    Your first sentence is wrong. It is not assumed in physics that light rays bounce off of mass, but that the electromagnetic field interacts with moving charges. This renders the rest of your post meaningless. Try reading about the wave theory of light, then QED.

    A copy of Hecht’s Optics would be a good place to start.

    [W]ith this level of understanding wikipedia would be a start.

    For that matter, playing around with a torch for a bit would probably be a start.

    Are you using your own definition of the meaning of the term “constant”?

    [physics loon's reply:] yes and it is really hard to explain.

  334. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    Thhbbpppfffffft!

    As bill the cat would say. You make me fell very silly, self-conscious, and loved, Esteleth!

    @ Portia – no worries. You can tell me all about criminal law over the weekend.

  335. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    the spectrum is a bi product of one frequency

    I told my mom that queers were everywhere!

    ======
    Taking the deep, breakfast-flavored breath before the storm.

  336. Portia, worn out says

    Crip Dyke:
    I’d be happy to :) Inchoate hugs, high fives, and coffee for you ;)

  337. glodson says

    @ blf

    Wow. That was almost painful to read. It doesn’t even…. I… goddamn, that isn’t even wrong!

  338. dianne says

    @438: Does anyone know if apotex chronically makes this sort of screwup or if this was unusual for them?

  339. Walton says

    Good luck with exams, CD! I’ve had several of them in the last few weeks. (And I do remember the stress of law school exams in the US – I only did a one-year LLM there, though, so I didn’t have to take all the compulsory JD classes.)

  340. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @dianne:

    This article gives no indication that this has or hasn’t happened before, but they make sure to tell us that the packages are manufactured in Spain!

    I think if this has happened before, it will come out in the next couple of days, but it hasn’t yet.

  341. Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden says

    @Walton

    Thanks. Good luck on any your have remaining. I still wanna pick your brains about refoulement later.

    @everyone:
    Breakfast is done. I’m out for about 10 hours. Have good days, everyone.

  342. dianne says

    Crip Dyke-thanks! Apotex is coming out with a new product that I may end up regularly prescribing and want to know if the company is trustworthy or not before committing people to using products made by it.

  343. cicely (mumblemumble-SomethingHalf-Witty-mumblemumble) says

    ednaz: Nothing much more to tell about the Wheelychair!, except that it was paid for with our tax refund—which, in retrospect, would otherwise have ended up being spent on the Completely Uncalled-For Medical Drama. Unfortunately, the Hoverchair10000™ project never got off the ground, so no lasers, no shark flingers, no force fields, and no hover conversion. Ah, well….

    rq

    Is it fast enough to outrun Peas?

    Indubitably!

    Horses? Peas and Horses?

    Dubiously!
    It’ll all depend on 1) how fast I can strong-arm it along, 2) the terrain features (slope? rugged? covered in tar?), and 3) how strong is the wind, and from what quarter?

    I hope it’s faster than this!

    That is a very brave young woman. Off-roading in a wheelchair, at the mercy of an Equine Beast? Day-am!

    However, I got better.

    Much better. It was inspiring to watch!
    :)

    opposablethumbs

    Will it have go-faster stripes?

    I don’t see where I would put them…but I’m planning to do a personalised cover for the seat-back. Un-genericise it, y’know? Which’ll take some time, since my mortal enemy the Sewing Machine has (predictably!) opted to treacherously abandon me in this, my time of need.
     
    I hate hand-sewing.

    Damn, Esteleth; your friend’s situation sucks. Wish I could help.

    *hugs* and encouragement for Crip Dyke.
    -

  344. opposablethumbs says

    rq, exactly. Libertarians seem to think that just by declaring the status quo to be a level playing field with no history – pretending it’s all a great big tabula rasa – they have somehow magically made it so! Argh.
    .
    Good luck, Ms Crip Dyke!!!! Knock their collective socks off! ::joins cheering crowd lining the route::

  345. rq says

    Crip Dyke
    I’m holding a jar of thumbs for you!! Good luck!

    FossilFishy
    You cheat. I did not see any dancing with that particular skin.

  346. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Meanwhile in Kansas

    County Commissioner Jim Gile, 68, of Saline County, Kansas, was in a study session with his fellow commissioners when the subject of hiring an architect to design the repairs for the county’s Road and Bridge Department building came up.

    Gile, a first-term commissioner who started serving in January, told the county that he preferred to hire an architect over having someone “nigger-rigging it.”

    The Salina Journal reports on what happened next:

    His comment brought laughter from others in the room. Salinan Ray Hruska, who attends most commission meetings and study sessions, asked Gile what he said.

    “Afro-Americanized,” Gile replied.

    “He’s like that congressman from Alaska,” Commission Chairman Randy Duncan can be heard to say of Gile’s comment.

    Duncan was referring to Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, who in a recent radio interview called Latino ranch workers at his father’s farm “wetbacks.”

    And just like Rep. Young, Gile too later blamed his “bad choice of words” on having “grown up” around the term.

    “I am not a prejudiced person,” Gile said in his apology. “I have built Habitat homes for colored people.”

    He added that he has a close black friend “whom he regards as a sister.”

  347. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Meanwhile in Kansas

    Another day, another Republican official uses a racist term “from their youth” that hasn’t been in use for decades.

    County Commissioner Jim Gile, 68, of Saline County, Kansas, was in a study session with his fellow commissioners when the subject of hiring an architect to design the repairs for the county’s Road and Bridge Department building came up.

    Gile, a first-term commissioner who started serving in January, told the county that he preferred to hire an architect over having someone “nigger-rigging it.”

    The Salina Journal reports on what happened next:

    His comment brought laughter from others in the room. Salinan Ray Hruska, who attends most commission meetings and study sessions, asked Gile what he said.

    “Afro-Americanized,” Gile replied.

    “He’s like that congressman from Alaska,” Commission Chairman Randy Duncan can be heard to say of Gile’s comment.

    Duncan was referring to Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, who in a recent radio interview called Latino ranch workers at his father’s farm “wetbacks.”

    And just like Rep. Young, Gile too later blamed his “bad choice of words” on having “grown up” around the term.

    “I am not a prejudiced person,” Gile said in his apology. “I have built Habitat homes for colored people.”

    He added that he has a close black friend “whom he regards as a sister.”

  348. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Humm a comment got eated.

    Meanwhile in Kansas

    Gile, a first-term commissioner who started serving in January, told the county that he preferred to hire an architect over having someone “nigger-rigging it.”

  349. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Does Pharyngula not like Gawker links?

    Meanwhile in Kansas

    Saline County Commissioner Jim Gile said it was a “bad choice of words” Tuesday when he used the expression “nigger-rigging it” in a heated discussion with Commissioner John Price.

    um

    Gile said he grew up around the term, but it is something he shouldn’t have used.

    “I am not a prejudiced person,” Gile said Friday. “I have built Habitat homes for colored people.”

    Gile said he also has a close friend whom he regards as a sister who is black.

    “I don’t ever do anything bad and don’t know how to do anything bad. People know I am not,” he said.

    No word on his stance on letting “colored people” use his bathroom.

  350. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    Meanwhile in Kansas

    Saline County Commissioner Jim Gile said it was a “bad choice of words” Tuesday when he used the expression “ni**er-rigging it” in a heated discussion with Commissioner John Price.

    whoops

    Gile said he grew up around the term, but it is something he shouldn’t have used.

    “I am not a prejudiced person,” Gile said Friday. “I have built Habitat homes for colored people.”

    Gile said he also has a close friend whom he regards as a sister who is black.

    “I don’t ever do anything bad and don’t know how to do anything bad. People know I am not,” he said.

    No word on his stance on letting “colored people” use his bathroom.

  351. Rev. BigDumbChimp says

    PZ not that it probably matters but I apologize for the 8 or 9 different comments I tried to put through for that story before realizing a certain word was banned here.

    /i am so smrt

  352. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    Most libertarians are consequentialists to some degree. They think libertarianism will function better in practice, therefore, follow the rules.

    That’s curious; I remember a very strong streak of “Never mind the OUTCOME, it’s the PRINCIPLE!” when I was arguing with Libertarians, particularly back before Daylight Atheism joined any networks.

  353. UnknownEric the Apostate says

    “I am not a prejudiced person,” Gile said Friday. “I have built Habitat homes for colored people.”

    EPIC FACEPALM.

  354. says

    Azkyroth
    They flipflop on that. Basically, you must follow the PRINCIPLES, in every detail, and if if doesn’t bring good outcomes then you didn’t follow them right, because the outcomes of the PRINCIPLES are good by definition.

  355. opposablethumbs says

    Esteleth, I hope your friend is able to find a place to stay. I can’t get my head round throwing family out for something like this. If one of my Spawn became something really awful, like a catholic or a baptist or a wahabi or a libertarian, I would feel terrible and argue forever, but I wouldn’t leave them homeless.

    I hope xe is OK :-(((

  356. rq says

    Azkyroth
    I think my friend is learning that libertarianism in practice (even if applying the principles correctly) works pretty poorly…

  357. Funny Diva says

    Howdy, Horde!
    Just popping in to say thanks for the recommendations of “Ascent of Man” in the Hands and Hearts thread. I was too young to have seen it in ’73-’74. But it’s on YouTube, and I’m really liking it.

    *dumps hugs and bacon for general sharing*

  358. Walton says

    I hope this isn’t too presumptuous a thing to ask, but does anyone know how best to contact Chris Clarke? (Besides posting in this thread, I mean.) I just wanted to ask if he or any of the other Freethoughtbloggers would be interested in writing something about Jackie Nanyonjo. Given that lots of bloggers here have written about the homophobic laws in Uganda, it should be within their field of interest. I guess I’m trying to spread the word, because her death has been completely ignored by most of the British and international media.

  359. carlie says

    Walton – he is on twitter a lot, so an @ at him there might work – I think he might have an email address at his blog too.

  360. Walton says

    Some libertarians are consequentialists, certainly. Many of those I’ve known have been very keen on economics, either of the Friedman or of the Hayek school, and have argued that free-market economics will generally lead to better real-world outcomes than state intervention. That, of course, is largely a testable empirical question (although not entirely, because there’s still room for a range of moral views on what constitutes a “better” economic outcome). It can thus be attacked through the use of empirical evidence. Which is why social science is so important: I think one of the problems with libertarians is that, while many have a background in economics, very few (in my experience) have one in sociology, and it is sociological evidence that goes a long way towards debunking libertarian nostrums.

    But I’ve also encountered deontological libertarians, who typically subscribe to some version of the “non-aggression principle”, and view it as an a priori moral truth. Randian Objectivism*, for instance, is really based on a priori moral axioms rather than real-world outcomes: Rand thought it was self-evident, if one accepted her beliefs about metaphysics and epistemology, that her views about morality and politics were also correct. Hence why she said “I am not primarily an advocate of capitalism, but of egoism; and I am not primarily an advocate of egoism, but of reason.”

    (*Yes, I know Objectivists typically object to being called libertarians, but I’m using “libertarian” in a broad sense here.)

  361. Portia, worn out says

    rq, I love the video. I will store it in my memory for future use!

    —-

    Yesterday, I stopped by my friend’s house to visit her and her two year old. This is the mormon friend. Her toddler was pretending, and he handed her a little cup from his tea set (yes, she does get credit for being less-gender-essentialist than most people) and declared that it was coffee. Her first reaction was “How about herbal tea?” and then she realized how silly she sounded and we both burst out laughing.

    —-

    Her husband was discussing his coworker (whom he calls “insane”) and ridiculing him for believing in aliens and bigfoot and chupacabra…no self-awareness, I tell you, none at all.

  362. rq says

    I give up with this trying; I don’t want to have this conversation again.
    This is me, making towel-throwing motions inward.
    (I’m fine. I’m not leaving the Horde. Nothing quite so dramatic.)

    Good night!

    PS Walton Thanks for your thoughts on libertarians. I will give it more thought tomorrow.

  363. Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :) says

    I need to stop reading Dispatches. Aside from the handful of Complete Monster commenters (Heath, Heddle, slc1 the genocidal maniac…) the posts themselves give me such a case of Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy that I’m pretty much reduced to snarky side comments. :(

  364. says

    Acute pancreatitis has struck again, so I’ll be gone for a few days. No, I’m resisting going back into the hospital, in spite of the siren song of morphine (oh, sweet morphine!) – Mister heads back to work tomorrow, someone has to see to animals, all that. I did manage to keep some pain meds down, which helped, hopefully I can keep doing that the next three days. I’m staying hydrated and Mister made sure I have my hated cell at hand. Okay, back to bed. See you all soon.

  365. opposablethumbs says

    Shit, Caine, I’m sorry. Hope the pain meds help enough so that you can rest properly, in between the essential things that have to be done. Hope you feel better really soon.

  366. says

    So, good luck, Crip Dyke

    Yay for wheelchair, cicely

    I’m sorry for your friend, Esteleth. Can’t help but my sympathy.

    Get well soon, Caine

    +++
    So, today #1 almost landed us in the ER. She ran, turned around to tell her sister that she’s going to win and then turned her head around just in time to crush into the edge of the door. Everything so quickly I couldn’t do shit. So now she has a fat black mark, as straight as a line right in the middle of her forehead, but the skin didn’t break and she’s feeling well, so day “saved”.
    When I carried her to the elevator and then held her when we were riding upstairs she said “Thank you for loving me, mum”

  367. birgerjohansson says

    “If only they could spend a little time in their own dream societies (in holodeck fashion) at the bottom – ”

    Some would change their minds but not all. Rigid minds are rigid. For instance, many GULAG survivors remained staunch communists.
    — — — — —

    Swedish TV showed the final film in the “Resident Evil” series yesterday.

    It has occurred to me that Milla Jovovich will be perfect for taking out Rush Limbaugh et al.

    1. She has vast experience of killing ghastly, monstrous organisms.
    2. She is attracted to bad scripts. And the scripture emerging from the pens of Limbaugh and his ilk is as bad as it gets.

  368. opposablethumbs says

    Argh, Giliell, poor little mite! I’m glad she’s OK. And that’s such a sweet thing to say :-D

  369. opposablethumbs says

    I’m sure you’re right, birgerjohansson, and some would stick to the script, but I bet many would at least reconsider. Without the social, educational and financial capital they think of as just being “them”, it might be less comfortable to hold to the illusion that they succeed in the real world on their own merits alone.
    But yes, some would probably stick to it despite everything.
    .
    Good night Horde.

  370. birgerjohansson says

    Thatcher was not a very clever conservative. Her government sold out most of the Brit gold reserve when the gold price was low. The tax cuts and resulting budget shortfall in the 1980s was partially balanced with revenues from North Sea oil…during a time when oil prices were low. Since extraction costs are high, the profit margin for this non-renewable resource was low.

    The only smart member of her cabinet was Douglas Hurd, who ran the prison system in a pragmatic way instead of making it even worse for ideological reasons, like in USA.

  371. birgerjohansson says

    I am tired (local midnight) so I forgot to reference previous comments about Limbaugh, Tatcher etc. Good night.

  372. Portia, worn out says

    Giliell,
    Glad kiddo is “ok.” Re: her comment, *melt*
    That’s so sweet.

    Night opposablethumbs!

  373. mildlymagnificent says

    blf Another physics loon – the same person has been infesting a science forum I moderate at.

    You’ll be surprised, nay, shocked! to learn that he used the exact same title and concept – for want of a better word – a few weeks before that post at Bad Science. Clearly, the efforts of our members to hammer in some simple, basic stuff didn’t make any impact. I have a horrible feeling he’s hawking it around everywhere and everyone really, honestly tries to get him to see sense.

    And his contributions to threads he doesn’t initiate are similarly incomprehensible.

  374. carlie says

    Oh, I’m so sorry Caine. And everybody with troubles. I haven’t been keeping up well lately.

  375. says

    I would like to say thank you to rq and Walton for the QnA earlier. I shared many of rq’s questions, and Walton was able to provide a personalized answer that I appreciated.

    (btw, Walton, from the nature of the few comments I’ve read by you in this thread alone, I get an inkling of why you’re held in high regard around here)

  376. Portia, worn out says

    Walton:
    Didn’t Rand describe herself as Objectivist? Or do you mean libertarians in general reject the term? I guess they would have enough cognitive dissonance to spread around and cover a rejection of the label and embrace the philosopher who claimed it.

    Chigau:
    Oh, man. My sympathies. Been there.