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Apr 03 2013

Hey, North Carolina, have you forgotten how it went last time you rejected the US government?

Nobody wants a second American Civil War, so why are Republicans in North Carolina repudiating the Constitution? Here’s the law they’re trying to pass.

SECTION 1. The North Carolina General Assembly asserts that the Constitution of the United States of America does not prohibit states or their subsidiaries from making laws respecting an establishment of religion.

SECTION 2. The North Carolina General Assembly does not recognize federal court rulings which prohibit and otherwise regulate the State of North Carolina, its public schools, or any political subdivisions of the State from making laws respecting an establishment of religion.

Amazing. Not only are they trying to make laws in open defiance of constitutional limits, but they’re doing it for a stupid cause — so they can declare a state religion.

So far, we’ve determined that some Southerners are traitors, and that they have a history of committing treason for appallingly stupid reasons. This is not good for your reputation, people!

107 comments

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  1. 1
    Onamission5

    Here we fucking go again. So it wasn’t enough to take the teeth out of the liberal and secular vote through gerrymandering, it wasn’t enough to follow that up with Amendment 1 (which would not have passed so easily without the aforementioned) but they’ve now got to.. what? Try and secede from federal authority?

    *headdesk headdesk headdesk*
    *starts packing*

  2. 2
    machintelligence

    Patrick at the Popehat blog has some interesting commentary:
    http://www.popehat.com/2013/04/03/are-harry-warren-and-carl-ford-oathbreakers-or-merely-dangerous-cranks/

  3. 3
    noastronomer

    I love the religious right, I really do, It’s like performance art. Improv comedy mostly.

    Mike.

  4. 4
    Alexandra

    This would totally fly up here in ND. They just have not thought about it yet. Cringe.

  5. 5
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    As I have said in multiple other places this morning:
    Just fucking secede already, shitbags.

  6. 6
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    I thought the Republicans just absolutely lurv the Constitution of the US? They’re always going on about the Second Amendment.

    I guess they could scrap everything but the 2nd Amendment. That might make ‘em happy.

  7. 7
    Alverant

    @6 If they can write a law ignoring the 1st ammendment can other states write one to ignore the 2nd? You know using their logic.

  8. 8
    Forrest

    Please don’t encourage secession! I love my home state of NC and being part of this great United States! Don’t give up on us, help us fight the conservative legislature. So far they have turned down Medicaid expansion, submitted bills to take away control of Charlotte’s airport from the city, give Asheville’s water system to the private Metropolitan Sewerage District, a voter ID bill, reduction in early voting and removing same day registration for early voting, denying dependent deductions for college students who vote where they attend school, prohibiting co-ed suites at UNC-CH, selling the 325-acre Dix park near downtown Raleigh, and require classes and a 2 year separation to get divorced (already discussed on Pharyngula). It is difficult to keep up with the crap our legislature is planning for us. The conservative dystopia isn’t inevitable if we fight against it.

  9. 9
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    As I have said in multiple other places this morning:
    Just fucking secede already, shitbags.

    Would you like me to secede also? Kinda going to be tough.

  10. 10
    seanhart

    Move over, Texas, there is a new Texas in town. (Appalled NC resident here)

  11. 11
    anuran

    Next time we make Sherman’s March ten years long and salt every fucking square inch south of the Mason Dixon Line

  12. 12
    Scr... Archivist

    This may be an opportunity to get Christians to support religious liberty for everyone.

    Just run a radio/TV/internet ad campaign saying (with a menacing narrator) that a bill is being considered that would restrict North Carolinians’ freedom of religion. It would force them to either join the church that the state government chooses for them, and pay special taxes to support that government-sponsored church. Words like “force”, “government”, “control”, and “taxes” will cut through the fog.

    That ought to be enough to generate sufficient opposition, while at the same time demonstrating why church-state separation is a good idea.

  13. 13
    jnorris

    The resolution goes nowhere in the legislature and these boys win reelection by a landslide because they defended Jesus.

  14. 14
    jamessweet

    So they’re disputing the Incorporation Doctrine, basically. Meh. jnorris has it about right: This is a gesture, nothing more.

  15. 15
    a_ray_in_dilbert_space

    Ironically, I am just reading the part of Sherman’s memoirs where he is marching through N. Carolina. The rationale behind his march from GA through S. Carolina and N. Carolina was to demonstrate to Southerners that the Confederate boasts of imminent victory were empty.

    It is an interesting book in some ways. It is clear Sherman loved the south. He was teaching at what would eventually become LSU at the outset of the war. And his attitude toward the South was like that of a jilted lover.

    If you read the history of the US Civil War, it quickly becomes clear that the south was planning for it long before Ft. Sumter. Jeff Davis used is influence as Secretary of War to promote the careers of Southern officers who would eventually become the core of the rebel army. And it’s equally clear that some in the South have been aching for another war since they lost the first one.

    Their motto: If at first you don’t secede, try, try again.

  16. 16
    raven

    I’ve said for a long time that the fundie cultists openly hate the US government and will destroy it if they can.

    The present christofascist regime in NC just proves it.

    The only thing preventing them from seceding is the US military and the objections of an unknown but possibly small number of NC citizens.

    Don’t forget, that however vicious and cuckoo the current NC legislature is, they were voted in by the current residents of that state.

  17. 17
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Sorry, dudes. I don’t want you to secede and, assuming NC is like every other goddamned state, the districts have been gerrymandered all to hell, so the voters aren’t even totally to blame.

    It’s just, damn. Those fuckers are downright treasonous. New York may be really fucking corrupt (just look at the news yesterday regarding state Senator Malcolm Smith), but at least we’re not running around collecting federal dollars on one hand and claiming sovereignty with the other.

  18. 18
    frog

    The problem with letting them secede is that there are all manner of good or innocent people I would not doom to living in a newly incorporated United States of Southern Jesusland. I mean, in the case of North Carolina, clearly we want to keep the Technical Triangle at the very least.

    Hmmm. The spec-fic writer in me is contemplating benevolent relocation programs. “If you currently live in one of the seceding states and would like to come live with the sane people, we will pay for relocation and support you until you get a job.”

    The problem of course would be providing those jobs, though without the obstructionist fuckheads, we might manage a good jobs program via public works and infrastructure improvements. Also, employing a larger number of teachers.

    And we might have jobs open up as we shed the folks in the sane states who want to go live in USSJ. Also, it might be handy to have such a country available as a place of exile. “Aw, too bad, you don’t like how we do things here in Librul America? Pack up, we’re shipping you to Mississippi.”

    Impractical dreams are the best, I tell you.

  19. 19
    erichoug

    Here’s what I really don’t get: This country guarantees religious liberty to everyone. So, given that, what is it exactly that these people want?

    Do they actually think that they will FORCE me to believe in their god? Do they think they can REQUIRE me to go to their church? That would be a hoot, picture me singing Henry the VIII through the entire service.

    So what the fuck do they actually intend to change?

  20. 20
    bodie425

    FWIW. North Carolina was the last state to leave the union during the Civil War. We were fairly progressive at the state level up until the last five years or so when the christofacists took over. Sigh. I want to leave but I have to be within 30 square miles of Momma’s breasts. Sigh. As long as I’m here, I can at least be an out and proud Queer and Atheist and poke the xtians in the eye.

  21. 21
    raven

    Here’s what I really don’t get: This country guarantees religious liberty to everyone. So, given that, what is it exactly that these people want?

    It’s no secret.

    They are xian Dominionist theocrats.

    They want a dictatorship of fundie xian death cultists with biblical law.

    In their world “liberty” is a bad word, almost as bad as the similar word, “liberal”.

  22. 22
    ryushikaze

    This is a gesture. Nothing more.

    That said, the conservative bullshit that’s gotten passed in my state recently is a shame, but it also makes you realize just how desperate the religious right really is.

    They know they’re losing ground, so they’re going to try and force people to do as they say OR ELSE by legal means, since they can’t force it socially any more.

  23. 23
    Irmin

    The bill doesn’t state what religion should be the official one?

    Pass the law and make it Islam, then. That would be funny.

  24. 24
    raven

    This is an example of the incoherence of xianity.

    1. The fundies claim we were founded as a xian nation, the constitution is a god inspired sacred document, and we are god’s new chosen people, the new Israel.

    2. They also openly hate the USA and would ignore or toss the US constitution in the trash and set up a theocracy if they could.

    Obviously these are contradictory.

    But they don’t care. Gods and religions are sockpuppet tools. They hate what you hate and want you to have what you want. The christofascists want more power and more money like any other oligarchy in history.

  25. 25
    cyberCMDR

    So, the politicians there are taking a cue off of Kim Jong Un, and grandstanding to get attention on the home front? Some things have no cultural boundaries…

  26. 26
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    North Carolina wants to ignore the Constitution† and Virginia wants to ignore the Supreme Court.

    http://wonkette.com/509918/virginia-attorney-general-ken-cuccinelli-really-doesn%e2%80%99t-want-you-having-sex-in-your-butts

    †Well, the non- PEW PEW bits, anyway.

  27. 27
    raven

    ,blockquote>So, the politicians there are taking a cue off of Kim Jong Un, and grandstanding to get attention on the home front? Some things have no cultural boundaries…

    LOL.

    Yeah, that was my thought.

    Will we go to war with North Korea or North Carolina first?

    And what is it with states starting with North anyway. North Dakota, North Carolina, North Korea. I hope it doesn’t spread to Northern California.

  28. 28
    JdRock

    Great, more fighting for Nullification from a Carolina….don’t think it went well the last time.

  29. 29
    Ichthyic

    At reading this, my first thought was that the Christian Exodus folks had made more progress than I had realized, and really had managed to infiltrate most of the legislature there in NC.

    But… those guys actually were trying to convert SOUTH Carolina to a theocracy…

    http://christianexodus.org/

    Far more than the original attempts at sedition and secession by the South that preemtped the first Civil War, this time I really really suggest highly: LET THE FUCKERS GO.

    see how well they do with their independent theocracies.

  30. 30
    Christopher

    And what is it with states starting with North anyway. North Dakota, North Carolina, North Korea. I hope it doesn’t spread to Northern California.

    cough State of Jefferson cough….

  31. 31
    Ichthyic

    And what is it with states starting with North anyway. North Dakota, North Carolina, North Korea. I hope it doesn’t spread to Northern California.

    naw, as you can clearly see, it’s northERN California, not North. has to be just “North” for this trend to apply. ;)

  32. 32
    Ichthyic

    Do they actually think that they will FORCE me to believe in their god? [YES] Do they think they can REQUIRE me to go to their church? [YES] That would be a hoot, picture me singing Henry the VIII through the entire service… [with red-hot pokers right behind you]

    you laugh as if that has not happened before.

  33. 33
    David Marjanović

    So, the politicians there are taking a cue off of Kim Jong Un, and grandstanding to get attention on the home front? Some things have no cultural boundaries…

    Thread won.

  34. 34
    yazikus

    it’s northERN California

    @Ichthyic
    Well, there is always the Cascadia movement (northern CA, OR, WA and some Canada for good measure.)…

  35. 35
    wytchy

    @#23

    The effect of the bill, if it were to magically succeed, would be to allow the section of the Constitution of North Carolina that prohibits people from public office if they don’t believe in God to be effective. So, rather than necessarily state an official religion, you simply wouldn’t be allowed into public office if you weren’t an avowed christian.

    I honestly don’t know what to think of this. What is the point? It’s destined to fail. I just… All of my wat.

  36. 36
    JohnnieCanuck

    Nope, not going to join any Cascadia movement, much as we like to complain about taxation without representation here in BC. That would be for the simple reason that we’d just be exchanging one bad master for another. We’d be the tail to an even bigger dog. California alone is bigger in population than all of Canada.

    You got to be kidding (yes, yes I know) if you expect us to get rid of universal health care, women’s reproductive rights, equal marriage rights and more.

  37. 37
    jaytheostrich

    So, basically, they say “We have asserted that we don’t like federal laws we don’t agree with, therefore they don’t apply to us, and we can ignore them. Besides, our job titles are ‘lawmakers’, so we say what goes.”
    Right?

  38. 38
    Rutee Katreya

    …and 100 years later, Southern history books would refer to it as being over ‘states rights’ and other such gibberish.

  39. 39
    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS... apparently...

    I know! Let’s designate Texas, Louisiana, and a third state over there as a new country, then help all the Dominionists move there and set up their Christofascist wet dream. We can help the more liberal secular-minded folks move back into the US, as well. It would get rid of the Tea Party and probably half of the Republican party, and we can sit back with popcorn and alcohol and watch them implode because of their own stupidity.

    Also, with the Christofascists gone, we would have the ability to help those who had to escape the new country with support and finding new jobs and such, because the Christofascists wouldn’t be able to stop it… because they wouldn’t be there.

    I’d be in full support of this, because I’m sick and fucking tired of the Christofascists and want them gone.

    Please?

  40. 40
    chigau (違う)

    NateHevens #39
    Think India and Pakistan.

    and after preview
    also Bangladesh

  41. 41
    John Morales

    [meta]

    Even I, a non-American, know of the Pledge of Allegiance.

    Currently, it reads: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

    Indivisible.

    (Reminds me a bit of the Nicene Creed, actually)

  42. 42
    rogerfirth

    I suspect these nutbagger legislators know it will never float. They’re just playing to their base. Never mind that they’re wasting taxpayer money stirring up a legal shitstorm that will only waste more taxpayer money to quash it and wind up where it all started. In the eyes of their nutbagger constituents they will look like they’re waging a righteous fight and it will assure their reelection.

    And the problem will only get worse.

  43. 43
    rogerfirth

    Even I, a non-American, know of the “Pledge of Allegiance”.

    Currently, it reads: “I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

    Note that the “under God” was inserted into the Pledge in 1954 after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, a religious organization.

  44. 44
    tim rowledge, Ersatz Haderach

    Here’s what I really don’t get: This country guarantees religious liberty to everyone. So, given that, what is it exactly that these people want?

    What they want is religious liberty – which is, of course, defined as the liberty to be part of their religion or go to hell. Which, of course, they think exists.

  45. 45
    Cyranothe2nd, there's no such thing as a moderate ally

    anuran @ 11

    Next time we make Sherman’s March ten years long and salt every fucking square inch south of the Mason Dixon Line

    This isn’t funny. You do know that Sherman’s men raped and murdered as they went, right? And that many of these victims were slave women? And that many other slaves that followed Sherman’s army starved to death?

    http://civilwarodyssey.blogspot.com/2011/03/behind-curtain-rape-and-other-horrors.html

    Yeah–just don’t, okay? That’s not something to wish on someone.

  46. 46
    weatherwax

    “And what is it with states starting with North anyway. North Dakota, North Carolina, North Korea. I hope it doesn’t spread to Northern California.”

    When I was at Humboldt State years some years ago there were students who wanted to make north coastal California a new country. A country were everyone would get enough government aid to live off, and need I even mention, legal pot for all.

    This was not a small prank, there were student groups seriously lobbying for it.

  47. 47
    raven

    A country were everyone would get enough government aid to live off, and need I even mention, legal pot for all.

    Seems to have halfway worked.

    The pot part for sure. There are so many pot growers in that area and no one bothers them. Even the electric companies have noticed an increase in demand to keep the (indoor) lights on.

    Then can forget about the government aid though. California is perpetually broke.

  48. 48
    Weedless Monkey

    When I was at Humboldt State years some years ago there were students who wanted to make north coastal California a new country. A country were everyone would get enough government aid to live off, and need I even mention, legal pot for all.

    The new country part seems silly, but I fully support citizen’s income. And need I even mention, legal pot.

  49. 49
    raven

    This isn’t funny. You do know that Sherman’s men raped and murdered as they went, right? And that many of these victims were slave women? And that many other slaves that followed Sherman’s army starved to death?

    You should mention it to the Oogedy Boogedy xians of North Carolina. The ones who hate the US government and want to secede. Again.

    Civil wars are historically seriously bloody. We saw it in 1860. We saw it in Vietnam. Remember, it was a war between North and South…Vietnam. Something like a million Vietnamese died. Iraq, Sunnis versus Shiites. Afghanistan, Pathtuns against everyone else and this has been going on for centuries.

    I’m guessing a war against The Xian Theocracy of North Carolina would cost a few trillions, last a decade or two, kill a few hundred thousand, and make a million or two North Carolina residents refugees. The USA would win the war in a matter of days. Followed by a decade of assymetric warfare as the Yahoos with their precious guns pick off soldiers and use IED’s and mines.

    It would probably be cheaper to just set up refugee camps in the surrounding states, let everyone out who wants out, and nuke the place. It probably would kill less and, in any event, it would at least be over quickly and we could move on.

    Xianity has historically left huge piles of bodies behind it. Nothing ever changes, does it?

  50. 50
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    The North Carolina General Assembly asserts that the Constitution of the United States of America does not prohibit states or their subsidiaries from making laws respecting an establishment of religion.

    I love that bit. They “assert” that it doesn’t. They don’t plan on proving it at any point, they’re just going to assert that it doesn’t and crack the fuck on. The sheer cheek of it is kind of admirable, in a way… if the action itself wasn’t so fucking harmful, anyway.

  51. 51
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    There is an argument to be made from a democratic point of view; that this should be put to a vote and that those States who want to seccede should be allowed to. Let the lunatics run the asylum, and allow those who wish (for some reason) to live in a fascist theocratic dictatorship to do so. However I can forsee future problems, where the USA and CSA end up in a state of perpetual warfare due mainly to any theocracys perpetual need to force those around it to conform to their ideals. Factor in the UKs alliance to the USA and the potential support the CSA will find amongst more religious countries, and you have the potential for another world war right there.

  52. 52
    Snoof

    There is an argument to be made from a democratic point of view; that this should be put to a vote and that those States who want to seccede should be allowed to. Let the lunatics run the asylum, and allow those who wish (for some reason) to live in a fascist theocratic dictatorship to do so. However I can forsee future problems, where the USA and CSA end up in a state of perpetual warfare due mainly to any theocracys perpetual need to force those around it to conform to their ideals. Factor in the UKs alliance to the USA and the potential support the CSA will find amongst more religious countries, and you have the potential for another world war right there.

    That only works if you’re willing to abandon people without the ability to leave on their own[1] trapped in a theocratic hellhole. I wouldn’t be.

    [1] Children, people trapped in abusive relationships, people in prison, people who can’t to pack up and leave, people with nowhere else to go…

  53. 53
    Snoof

    edit: people who can’t afford to pack up and leave

  54. 54
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Snoof

    No, I wouldn’t be either. The only democratic way out of this I can see is to allow the vote, but make the proviso that if the vote results in the creation of the CSA anyone who does not wish to live in the CSA can retain their US citizenship and move to the USA at their earliest convenience. It’s difficult, not everyone will be able to afford to move, but I see no other way around it. You can’t impose the will of the minority on the majority.

  55. 55
    raven

    However I can forsee future problems, where the USA and CSA end up in a state of perpetual warfare due mainly to any theocracys perpetual need to force those around it to conform to their ideals.

    Everything being equal, I’d be inclined to just let them go. The south has been a problem for the USA since before the last civil war.

    But it is not equal. Any large civil war would quickly go nuclear. The south has a large number of nuclear reactors, some nuclear weapons industrial facilities, and nuclear weapons are cheap and easy to make. They are based on technology we invented in 1945.

    It may happen anyway. Look what happened to the USSR. I’ve worked with Russian scientists who fled west afterwards to keep from starving to death. They weren’t being paid and were spending their time as subsistence agriculturists, something they still do in Russia during the summer. They never saw it coming.

    Look what happened to Yugoslavia.

    If North Carolina goes, probably the entire USA would fragment. The Mormons in Utah revolted once, fought a war with the USA that they lost, and they would be gone in a heartbeat. We on the west coast, California, Oregon, and Washington have less and less in common with Fundiestan.

    You could wave bye bye to the USA as a world power. It would be more like the EU or Africa.

  56. 56
    raven

    I’ll add here, a special thanks to xians and xianity.

    Thanks for destroying my country, the USA. Thanks for making life harder in the future for the other 315 million US citizens.

    Hitchens rule. Religion poisons everything.

  57. 57
    raven

    snoof:

    That only works if you’re willing to abandon people without the ability to leave on their own[1] trapped in a theocratic hellhole. I wouldn’t be.

    You haven’t thought it through very far.

    Bad things happen to people all over the world every day. That’s reality.

    1. The breakup of the USSR was relatively peaceful. Their shaky economy died and lifespans have been going down. They aren’t even reproducing, the birth rate is low.

    2. The breakup of Yugoslavia wasn’t all that fun either.

    3. The partition of India and Pakistan killed millions. The partition of Pakistan and Bangladesh killed more. There is now civil war style conflict in Pakistan between Baluchistan and the rest.

    4. The civil wars in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan weren’t any fun either. Two of those are still ongoing.

    You don’t always get to choose to live in a peaceful, progressive, prosperous world.

    In the present case, thank the christofascists in North Carolina for trying to start what could be a few decades or a century of nightmare.

  58. 58
    Snoof

    Bad things happen to people all over the world every day. That’s reality.

    I’m not sure anyone was arguing against that fact. I certainly wasn’t.

    The existence of massive suffering in the world isn’t an argument for permitting a new, oppressive theocracy to appear, though . Or am I misunderstanding you?

  59. 59
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Raven

    You could wave bye bye to the USA as a world power. It would be more like the EU

    Hey! :)

    Good point about the fragmentation though. Once you take the vote argument once, you have to apply it to everyone. However, I think there’s a fair hope that the leaders of the vast majority of the states would recognise that leaving the USA would be economically unviable, for very similar reasons that Scotland couldn’t seceed (an argument currently raging over here in the UK). As I said, the only democratic thing to do is to leave it to the states who wish to seceed. They can have a vote, if it comes up trumps, they can seceed. I believe the USA has a right to some input on the parameters for the vote, as the UK did for Scotlands Independance Referendum. I think for the most part a vote would avoid armed conflict.

  60. 60
    Ing

    @raven

    By your same logic YOU don’t get to choose to not live under a christian hegemony so shut the fuck up and take it like a trooper.

  61. 61
    Ing

    Seriously ffs: spoken like a true conservative, raven

  62. 62
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Snoof

    I think Raven’s point is that if you don’t allow a vote it will eventually come to civil war, and that’s much worse. It’s a matter of the Lesser Evil™.

  63. 63
    raven

    By your same logic YOU don’t get to choose to not live under a christian hegemony so shut the fuck up and take it like a trooper.

    A lot of Iranians didn’t get to choose to live under Islamic rule. It happened anyway.

    A lot of Egyptians didn’t get to choose to live under the recent Moslem Brotherhood Islamic regime. It happened anyway.

    If you have a coherent point, Ing, I’m not seeing it. What would you do if the majority of North Carolinians set up a xian theocracy? Which they are intent on doing, obviously.

    I’d leave in a hearbeat myself and that would solve my problem. I’ve lived in 6 different states and the one I currently live in is far from my home state. Moving is no big deal for me. For people that can’t or won’t leave, they would be stuck.

  64. 64
    raven

    The existence of massive suffering in the world isn’t an argument for permitting a new, oppressive theocracy to appear, though . Or am I misunderstanding you?

    Sometimes there are no good outcomes.

    1. The south secedes and sets up a hell on earth theocracy. This is bad.

    2. The south secedes and we have a civil war again. With 21st century weapons. This is bad too.

    A billion or so people in the world today suffer from various situations that they had no choice about. The world isn’t always a pleasant place.

    The USA has its problems but compared to much of the world, it is an OK place to live. The current elected officials of NC seem determined to change that.

  65. 65
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @ ING

    Which do you think is the better option: To ignore any right to self determination that individual states may have on the strength that some of their citizens will dislike the new regime; or allow the vote and, should the worst come to the worst, allow the secession and provide support for those who want to leave so that they can do so?

    Personally, I’d go for option 2. We can help, the USA government can help; if the worst comes to worst, there is no reason for anyone to be stuck there who doesn’t want to be.

  66. 66
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Well thank goodness. Someone is at least allowing me the option of a refugee camp.

    /eyeroll

  67. 67
    Ing

    @raven

    My point is you’re a callous knee jerking asshole.

  68. 68
    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS... apparently...

    No one is saying “refugee camp”, Rev. BDC. The government would provide you a place to live (like an apartment) and welfare support until you can find a job in your chosen field/area of expertise.

    I’m sorry, but the Christofascists need to go. If giving them their own country is how to get rid of them, then we should do it. They do a shit-ton of harm and practically no good at all.

    So why don’t we just let them go to live out their Christofascist wet dream somewhere else?

    I’d be more than happy to pay more taxes to help those who don’t want to be trapped in a theocracy, but the Christofascists need to go.

  69. 69
    raven

    Ing:

    @raven

    My point is you’re a callous knee jerking asshole.

    Thanks for letting me know.

    That you have nothing intelligent to say and anger management problems.

    I’ll just ignore anything you say in the future as a waste of time.

  70. 70
    Snoof

    @NateHevens

    No one is saying “refugee camp”, Rev. BDC.

    Well, raven is. See post 49:

    It would probably be cheaper to just set up refugee camps in the surrounding states, let everyone out who wants out, and nuke the place.

    In any case:

    The government would provide you a place to live (like an apartment) and welfare support until you can find a job in your chosen field/area of expertise.

    Yeah, I bet. Have you seen how political refugees get treated?

  71. 71
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    No one is saying “refugee camp”, Rev. BDC. The government would provide you a place to live (like an apartment) and welfare support until you can find a job in your chosen field/area of expertise.

    Awesome! Sign me up! Thanks for relieving me of the burden of self determination.

  72. 72
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Rev

    How is that not self determination? This is not a rhetorical point, I’m genuinely confused. The ability to choose between being a citizen of the USA or (hypothetical) CSA isn’t self determination?

  73. 73
    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS... apparently...

    Again… we need to get rid of the Christofascists.

    Anyone have any other suggestions?

  74. 74
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Snoof

    Yeah, I bet. Have you seen how political refugees get treated?

    Political refugees from other countries get treated fairly poorly. These are citizens of the USA which the USA has a duty to protect and care for. I would be utterly appalled if those who made the choice, should our hypothetical scenario ever come to pass, to retain US citizenship and relocate to the USA from the newly formed CSA were stuck in camps and generally treated like cattle.

    Not that I’m not appalled at the current state of affairs with political refugees. But I think the fact they are US citizens will guarantee them better treatment than your average Political Refugee.

    However, we’re getting away from the point here. What’s the best way to deal with this situation? To ignore any right to self determination that individual states may have on the strength that some of their citizens will dislike the new regime; or allow the vote and, should the worst come to the worst, allow the secession and provide support for those who want to leave so that they can do so?

  75. 75
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    There’s letting a state secede rather than starting a civil war and then there is gleefully encouraging it to do so, callously telling citizens of that state that they can just move into a refuge camp if they want.
    As a former Yugoslavian, I am well aware of countries wanting out of unions that aren’t working out for them, but some of you guys are way too dismissive of people who are telling you that their lives are going to go to shit if their state secedes. Really supportive, that. It sounds to me like you are not so much in favour of letting a state secede if it wants, as you are interested in getting rid of it because it sucks. At least be honest. You’re selfish, own it.

  76. 76
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Natehavens

    It’s not about “getting rid of the Christofascists”. That’s a bonus to the saner citizens of the US, sure, but the issue is the right to self determination. You can’t simply kick people out of their country, where they are citizens, because you don’t like their religion or politics. However, you can’t stop them if they wish to leave. And if the majority of a politically-defined area democratically vote to seceed, you can’t stop them then either.

  77. 77
    Snoof

    NateHevens @ 73

    Anyone have any other suggestions?

    Argue with them. Expose their bullshit to the general public. Educate their children. Enforce the Bill of Rights on federal, state and local levels. When they break the law, give them due process and fair trials, so they can’t claim persecution. Have a strong welfare system to make it easier for their victims to escape. Be better than them.

  78. 78
    burgundy

    If it gets put to a vote, are we talking popular vote or state legislature? Because I’m pretty sure that even a lot of conservatives would vote to stay in the US, so a popular vote wouldn’t lead to secession, but the legislatures are often really fucked up. (A Texas legislator submitted a bill that basically says the state gets to decide which federal taxes are legal, and prohibits the feds from collecting those taxes if a Texan submits an affidavit that they don’t want to pay. I don’t know if this guy is really that clueless about how things work or if this is deliberate grandstanding. Between the hours and the pay, Texas legislators can best be described as hobbyist politicians. Which is one reason I wouldn’t want them anywhere near this kind of vote.)

  79. 79
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Snoof

    Argue with them. Expose their bullshit to the general public. Educate their children. Enforce the Bill of Rights on federal, state and local levels. When they break the law, give them due process and fair trials, so they can’t claim persecution. Have a strong welfare system to make it easier for their victims to escape. Be better than them.

    I agree with all of that, but I fail to see how refusing to give someone the right to a referendum of self-determination is “be[ing]better than them”.

    @Burgundy

    I’d been assuming a popular vote. That seems the only fair way to do it, plus I don’t really get what you mean by State Legislature, not being a USian :-/

  80. 80
    Jackie

    Thumper, sure the US takes excellent care of its displaced citizens. Just ask the survivors of Katrina and Sandy.

  81. 81
    movablebooklady

    I used to be proud to be a Tarheel. That was a while ago. I used to think that the most embarrassing thing about NC was Jesse Helms. Wrong again. The gerrymandering was a shock and the current governor and legislator are a shock, too. We here in Asheville are organizing and protesting but I’m not sure it’ll do any good. I’d hate to have to move, but I might.

    OTOH, where would I go? My former home Arizona is now batshit crazy. Idaho and Utah are out, for obvious religious and political reasons. Texas? I don’t think so. There are reasons not to live in a lot of places, so I guess I’ll stay here and help fight the fight.

  82. 82
    David Marjanović

    It would probably be cheaper to just set up refugee camps in the surrounding states, let everyone out who wants out, and nuke the place. It probably would kill less and, in any event, it would at least be over quickly and we could move on.

    What an ignorant thing to say. Nuking a place isn’t over in thirty thousand years. Look up the cancer and congenital malformation rates in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

  83. 83
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    How is that not self determination? This is not a rhetorical point, I’m genuinely confused. The ability to choose between being a citizen of the USA or (hypothetical) CSA isn’t self determination?

    Gee, forcing the choice to have to move to another location to continue to be a citizen of the US?

    The level of myopia that pops here up whenever those ass backward southerners are a topic is sad. Any other discussion here that involved splash damage (yes there is more than one kind of splash damage) would be rightfully chastised. But Fuck, those unlucky “few” in the south. Their hardships are expendable in the light of lazy naval gazing solutions to the problem.

    I’m sure this hypothetical public mental masturbation exercise has been fun for everyone but there are real people, living real lives in the South who are not a part of the problem. A big whole bunch of them in fact and I’d wager more and more every day. These types of discussions about how you think their lives should be uprooted and changed and decimated, having people have to choose between the place they love and remaining a part of the country they live in that guarantees rights and protections (admittedly not always that well) is just peachy.

    You know instead we could focus on the actual people causing the harm.

    You know those “Christofascists”.

    Getting them out of office. Trust me, us “unlucky few” in the South are working on it.

    Federally we could make some changes to laws governing gerrymandered. That’s a start.

    Call your representatives.

  84. 84
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Federally we could make some changes to laws governing gerrymanderING. That’s a start.

    fifm

  85. 85
    David Marjanović

    I don’t really get what you mean by State Legislature

    Each state has a parliament. Because these parliaments have different names in different states, “legislature” has become the cover term for them.

  86. 86
    Ing

    So we sentence a good number of people to a horrible existence because we want to preserve free will?

    Why aren’t you Christians again?

  87. 87
    Ing

    @84

    Huh what? yes?

  88. 88
    burgundy

    Thumper – in the US, only a relatively small portion of the laws that govern day-to-day living are passed at the national level. A lot is left up to the individual states (which is why you often see posts here about terrible state abortion laws. Waiting periods, parental consent, required ultrasounds, etc are all determined by individual states.) So each state has its own legislative body, to pass and amend state laws. In the case of a (national) constitutional amendment, it’s the state legislatures that determine ratification. That’s why I was concerned about them being the ones to decide ssecession.

    I don’t see the rabid Christians voting to secede, because they have so much mythology built up around America. They don’t want to run their own country, they want to run this country. The only people I see voting that way are some libertarians and the Sovereign Citizens.

  89. 89
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Rev.

    Ah, OK. Sorry, I should have got that. My thoughts on self determination only went as far as if you wanted to be a US citizen or not.

    I’m aware that “there are real people, living real lives in the South who are not a part of the problem” but I’m not suggesting kicking people out because they are a “problem”, or even allowing the vote for cynical resons because you want the South to seceed. I’m from the UK, it won’t even affect me. I am advocating for a vote because I think it’s downright immoral to not give people that choice. You can’t deny your entire state a vote because you want to live there and be a US citizen. What about everyone else who lives there? You can not force a state to remain part of a union that the majority of its population do not wish to be a part of just because their anscestors agreed to be so.

    We are having a similar discussion here in the UK about Scotland, and my position on that is exactly the same.

  90. 90
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    @84

    Huh what? yes?

    Oh, sorry about that..

  91. 91
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @burgundy and David Marjanovic

    Ah, OK; yeah I’m aware each state had it’s own “parliament”, I wasn’t aware of the terminology. Thank you both.

    In that case, yes I am definitely talking about a popular vote. My entire point is that this should be decided by the majority opinion of the citizens. That’s the democratic decision.

  92. 92
    Ing

    So jutst to clarify thumper, you’re saying the majority can vote away the legal rights of individuals or minorities?

    Because that’s what that vote is. revoking the legal citizenship of others

  93. 93
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Jackie

    Thumper, sure the US takes excellent care of its displaced citizens. Just ask the survivors of Katrina and Sandy.

    Ugh, fair point; their handling of those disasters was terrible. However, I stand by my point: the Democratic, fair thing to do is to leave this up to the citizens of whatever state is in question.

  94. 94
    Ing

    No it is not fair for a fucking state to vote to strip its citizns of their federal protections

    Ffs

  95. 95
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Ing

    No it isn’t. Read up the thread, I’ve covered that. The US can, and should, put provisions in place to ensure that those who do not want to be a citizen of the CSA can retain the USA citizenship and move to the USA. And also, we’re talking civic rights here, not human rights.

    No one here has yet to give a me a single decent argument for why the wishes of the minority should trump the wishes of the many. You are a democratic nation, are you not? Decide this democratically.

  96. 96
    chigau (違う)

    Simple majority?
    50% +1?
    Two thirds?
    Will the vote split along these lines?
    From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina#Ethnicity
    The state’s racial composition in the 2010 Census:
    White: 68.5% (65.3% non-Hispanic white)
    Black or African American: 21.5%
    Hispanic or Latino (of any race): 8.4%
    Asian: 2.2%
    Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander: 0.1%
    Some other race: 4.3%
    Two or more races: 2.2%

  97. 97
    Ing

    Losing their statehood would be a forced relocation and a deprivation of property

    Ffs thumper how huge an ass re you?

    So gays are fine to get married they should just move?

  98. 98
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @ING

    FFS, look. You have one of two situations here. You either deny the vote, thus denying everyone in the state their say on their own political identity. Not cool. Especially if, in reality, it turns out to be a majority who want secession. Or you have the vote, which leads to either:

    A- Secession or
    B- remaining part of the union

    In situation A, the people who wanted to remain part of the union lose out and have to move if they want to remain part of the union. In situation B, those who wanted to seceed lose out, and are stuck being part of the Union whether they like it or not.

    In every situation someone loses out. Now, you tell me why it’s fairer or better for the secessionists to lose out rather than the Loyalists? Because I see no coherent argument to that effect. Every outcome of this is unfair on someone, so the best you can do is displease the least amount of people. Situations like this is why Democracy was invented.

  99. 99
    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS... apparently...

    Nope. Thumper, Rev BDC is right. I live in the south US myself, and don’t actually have the means to move out (I’m begging for donations to be able to afford the hotel for the WiS2 conference), but I’d also be willing. I’ve been toying with the idea of moving to Colorado or Washington State, or going expat entirely because, to be frank, I’m kinda sick of this country.

    There’s so much to love about it, and yet so much more to hate.

    But yeah… there are real people trying to change it. I’m not so sure we can change it, but maybe fighting to change it is better than disenfranchising a minority just get rid of another minority (although, I’m not gonna lie… I sometimes wonder if the Christofascists are actually the majority… it gets a lot harder each day to believe the Theologians and moderately religious who claim that this fanatic Christianity is in the minority).

    I wish there were a short-term solution to it, though. I would be in Heaven if I woke up tomorrow morning to find the Christofascists gone and the US going truly progressive… but that’s not gonna happen, I guess…

  100. 100
    burgundy

    thumper – if there really was a massive movement to secede, we would really have to grapple with these questions. But there isn’t. It’s not analagous to Scotland. I have many times seen non-Southern progressives online say “why don’t they just secede?” I’ve lived in Texas for 33 years. I have never gotten the sense that anyone actually wants to go.

    So for right now, it’s a thought exercise along the lines of the one with the train (if you don’t do anything you’ll kill 5 people, if you switch lines you’ll only kill 2). and people often get irritated at those kinds of thought exercises, especially when they seem to overlook real-world implications.

    Shorter me: I appreciate your qualms about the ethics of forced unification. But they are, at this time, not relevant to the US.

  101. 101
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Natehavens

    I’m sorry. That honestly sounds like an awful situation to find yourself in. But I don’t see why your wish to remain trumps their wish to leave. If you did not live in a State that would potentially seceed, would your opinion be the same?

    @ING

    So gays are fine to get married they should just move?

    Two people of the same sex getting married hurts no one. Being forced to remain part of a union you do not want to be a part of does.

    5 kids go to see a movie. There’s two options available; how do they decide? Show of hands. It’s 4 – 1, so they see option A, which makes the one kid sad and wondering why they paid money for a movie they didn’t want to see, but overall it’s fairer. 12 year olds have managed to work out that this is the fairer option, why the hell is it difficult here?

    As I said, my position on Scotland is exactly the same. A countrys right to political self determination is not something you can simply take away because the minority don’t like it. This is what Democracy is for.

    Anyway, I don’t want anyone to think I’m being rude, so full disclosure: I’m going away for the weekend, so please don’t be offended if I appear to be ignoring you. I will do my best to reply to everyone on Monday. Apologies for running away mid-conversation.

  102. 102
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @burgundy

    No, I don’t get the sense that the secessionist movement is anything other than a cranky fringe Libertarian movement. However, the whole thread’s been about secession, I was merely weighing in.

    However, point taken. I hope I haven’t annoyed anyone too much; I found this an enjoyable debate. I’ll see you all Monday, enjoy your weekends.

  103. 103
    NateHevens, resident SOOPER-GENIUS... apparently...

    thumper, one of the founding ideas behind the US (and this is something I was ignoring above and why I’ve changed my narrative) is that the majority cannot tyrannize the minority. We have a history of trying to find a way to appease the minority while not neglecting the majority. That was part of how this country was supposed to work. It’s actually why the Constitution set up an electoral college. Just because there’s a majority and a minority doesn’t mean the minority don’t get a say beyond the vote. We generally go for a compromise if we can, so that even some (ideally all, though that’s not always realistic) of the minority can be happy with the solution.

    Granted, it’s an easy set-up to abuse, and in many ways our system is quite broken. But per our country’s founding, we should find a way too fix the situation without uprooting the minority.

  104. 104
    Ing

    So people have to put up with gays when the majority doesn’t want them? can’t we vote to send them all away?

  105. 105
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Not that this really matters, but to get an idea of where the country really stood on secession after the election in Nov..

    A poll on secession after last years election.

    Republicans were more likely to support the proposition: 43 percent said they were in favor of the idea, compared to 22 percent of Independents and just 10 percent of Democrats.

    The HuffPost/YouGov poll interviewed 1,000 adults online between Nov. 14 and Nov. 15, with a 4.5 percent margin of error. It used a sample that was selected from YouGov’s opt-in online panel to match the demographics and other characteristics of the adult U.S. population. Factors considered include age, race, gender, education, employment, income, marital status, number of children, voter registration, time and location of Internet access, interest in politics, religion and church attendance.

    Take into account this was right after the election when emotions were high and implication of secession knowledge and data was probably very low.

    Also take into account that the spread of petitions for secession on whitehouse.gov is not limited to the south.

    Also, secession petition signings peaked the week or two after the election, quickly falling off afterwards.

  106. 106
    Crissa

    I’m sorry, I’m against nuking, because it leads to horrible deaths over time – and conventional a little bit less, because it leads to horrible deaths.

    But no, Nagasaki and Hiroshima aren’t nuclear wastelands with mutant children.
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2466/if-nuclear-fallout-lasts-thousands-of-years-how-did-hiroshima-and-nagasaki-recover-so-quickly

    The people are horribly damaged, which leads to this stuff, but the land itself is not the cause, nor will it last 30,000 years.

    I grew up on the coast of California, Oregon, and Washington. They don’t get alot of federal funds. They get mostly benign neglect. There’s no military bases, no research labs, no farm handouts, no timber hand outs. The towns live hand to mouth but live with decrees from far away to buy or sell their resources without much regard. So there’s alot of sentiment to secede, at least to make a new state. There’s alot of conservative assholes who want everything for themselves and a lesser number of hippyish types who moved in or converted when they realized the resources weren’t endless. Lots of live and let live commonalities. Lots of crazy religious nuts, huge amount of poverty. But it’s mostly the being ignored by the state and federal government that leads to this stuff.

    Should they secede? No. They haven’t any sustainable industries, and would be (and are) raped by corporations and rich people who want want want. With actual pillage.

  107. 107
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    State Religion bill snuffed.

    House Speaker Thom Tillis (R-Charlotte) announced Thursday afternoon that the bill would not be receiving a vote in the full House, effectively dropping the measure. Loretta Boniti, a reporter for News 14 Carolina, broke the news on Twitter, and it was confirmed in a breaking news alert posted on the home page of wral.com, a Raleigh-based television station. Tillis’ decision followed several days of national media attention on the bill, which also said that the state government did not have to listen to federal court rulings and was exempt from the requirements of the First Amendment.

    But keep your eyeballs and earballs peeled, the GOP in NC is trying some incredible stupid shit as of late. I’m hoping these are the last gasps of a dying elephant.

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