Quantcast

«

»

Mar 13 2013

[Thunderdome]

scary

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

752 comments

Skip to comment form

  1. 501
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Tccc:

    You are going to have to work harder to make a case for Audley being ableist. I do like how you are certain she was ableist. Previously it only ‘seemed’ that way to you.

  2. 502
    richardh

    Oh dear, annejones, can’t you be more original?
    You appear to be using the exact same words as Dr. Howard Glicksman in one of his articles on the website of the Access Research Network, which claims to be a non-profit organisation dedicated to providing accessible information on science, technology and society shilling for ID.
    At the very least before parroting this kind of material to an audience which contains real biologists, you ought to educate yourself on the objections they are likely to raise to this well-known fallacy. You could start by typing Mullerian two-step into Google…

  3. 503
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Irreducible Complexity is the final nail in the coffin of evolution;

    Since irreducible complexity hasn’t been defined, just handwaved about as a vague concept, your conclusion is full of shit.

    Still no evidence for your imaginary deity. Evidence that will pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers, as being of divine, and not natural (scientifically explained), origin. Something equivalent to the eternally burning bush. Without that, you have nothing but fuckwitted, inane, and meaningless blather.

    You appear to be incapable of learning from your mistakes. Your word is considered bullshit. And will remain bullshit.

  4. 504
    omnicrom

    Wow Annejones, you came back?

    I remember you vaguely from a few Thunderdomes ago where you peddled your creationism and argued from incredulity. You come back all this time shoveling Michael Behe’s bullcrap from over a decade ago? And lazily at that? You should either come back here more often to provide us some enjoyment or quit while you’re behind because occasionally dropping a few bad creationist talking points is no way to convert us godless heathens.

  5. 505
    UnknownEric the Apostate

    I don’t mean to interrupt the tense, important (and hopefully productive) discussions going here today, but I just wanted to vent for 2 seconds, then I’ll be on my way :)

    For poop’s sake, people*, when you ask a librarian (or any other person involved in customer service) a question, take out your damn earphones so you can hear xir answer! Don’t stand there for 5 minutes yelling “HUH? HUH? HUH?”

    Sorry, I just had to get that one off my chest.

    *I’m not referring to anyone here, just those who would do such a thing,

  6. 506
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    [takes headphones out of ears (Mozart at the moment)]

    Huh? What?

  7. 507
    David Marjanović

    I’d actually appreciate a link to the thread where Matt Penfold had his meltdown.

    {notes with concern the rising level of kindness and consideration on the thunderdome. what has this place become? what have I become‽ Aaaaaaaargh!!!}

    *bursts in, preferably shattering door*
    *kicks theophontes hard, repeatedly*
    *takes entire box of chocolate-covered hugs*
    *licks each hug clean & dry individually*
    *growls on occasion, bares teeth*

    “The School of Assassins [Thunderdome] was easy to get in, and easy to get out. The trick was to get out upright.”

    Both Theo and Chester tend to specialize in “we’ll help you sleep” comfort. They’ll wait until I lie down, then both come in, dive under the covers, snuggle in tight and commence with the bruxing and boggling.

    ♥ ♥ ♥

    I’ve met a couple of (civilian) demolition experts. They were the friendliest guys you ever saw (and the least aggressive or careless, believe me.)

    Natural selection.

    you should read the bullshit our friend SteveOr is spouting over on Ed’s blog

    There goes my evening.

    brb

    He’s StevoR, BTW.

    You’re a good person, Ogvorbis.
    I’m looking forward to the day when you realize that.

    Seconded!

    To control the transport of oxygen to the tissues the body must also have:

    Haaaaaa! A creationist! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

    No. “The body” only needs to have those things above a certain size (a different one for each of them).

    If any one of these above six parts is missing the whole system fails and the body dies because it can’t produce hemoglobin and transport enough oxygen to the tissues.

    Consider an earthworm. Bone marrow my ass. :-) Consider an insect – no hemoglobin! Consider a squid…

    To control its blood glucose level the body must also have:

    These things, too, are size-related, as well as depending on the kind and regularity of food.

  8. 508
    UnknownEric the Apostate

    He’s StevoR, BTW.

    Ah, thank you! I probably should have known that.

  9. 509
  10. 510
    Ze Madmax

    tccc @ #498

    Hey, asshole, in no way did I reduce anyone to their prosthetic, I mentioned to you that I do not think it is right to use someone’s prosthetic as an insulting term, people have feelings you know.

    “People have feelings you know” could be use to argue against any and all insults, so it’s not really a valid argument here, is it? Unless you are arguing that ANY insult is bad because, you know… people have feelings.

    The thing is, if you want to call someone a shit bag, have at it, but using someone’s medical device that also happens to collect stool as a funny/cute/edgy/educated/whateverthefuck euphemism for shit bag is not ok if you really are trying to avoid collateral damage in your insults. It is just that simple.

    I find it interesting that you refer to colostomy bags as a “medical device that also happens to collect stool.” As if the fact that colostomy bags are (literally) shit bags was a side effect, rather than the whole point of the bag. Furthermore, you claim using ‘colostomy bag’ leads to collateral damage (and hence, it’s ableist) but I don’t believe you’ve made that case.

    I have direct experience working with young people and middle aged folks with a range of differences out doing daily activities and an ostomy bag was unfortunately a source of embarrassment or self consciousness sometimes.

    Which is why it would be really fucked up to, say, make fun of people for having a colostomy bag. calling someone a colostomy bag is not like making fun of people who need them, however, so your argument that ‘colostomy bag –> self-consciousness; therefore ableism’ doesn’t hold.

    The best way to handle it in any circumstance was to treat it like the medical device it was, no big fucking deal, it is what it is, no problem. What was not helpful was the stigma attached to it by jerks like you.

    Again, you are conflating the use of ‘colostomy bag’ as an insult with insults towards people who need colostomy bags.

    Seeing as how you only get adult interaction 1 hour a day, that certainly explains your behavior and choice of insults.

    For someone who claims to be really hung up on calling out ableism, this is seriously fucked up. Have you considered how this reads to introverts? Or people who are socially anxious? You’re basically saying that people who don’t socialize with adults are assholes.

    So you’re tarring a fuckton of people with the broadest possible brush for the sake of getting a snipe in against somebody. You know what that’s called? Collateral Damage.

    And not caring about other people’s feelings? That is just par for the course for assholes, no need to state it explicitly. Your incapacity for discussion has been well demonstrated, no need to reply unless it is just to make yourself feel better.

    Strawman. Audley doesn’t care about your feelings, specifically as it pertains to the use of colostomy bags as insults. But hey, don’t let facts get in the way of a good argument.

    In the mean time, if I want to call someone a sack of shit, I’ll do it without the increased potential for collateral damage and stigmatization.

    Indeed. Carry on, brave social justice warrior!

  11. 511
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.
    You’re a good person, Ogvorbis.
    I’m looking forward to the day when you realize that.

    Seconded!

    That would be on alternate Thursdays. In months that begin on Saturdays. And end in the letter Q.

    Sorry.

    I’m a little down right now (no, really?). Not sure why. I just am good at fail. Not fair for me to be trying to drag you down, too.

  12. 512
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Apparently, that day is not going to be today.
    But I’m optimistic.

  13. 513
    Hooloovoo

    I just read this and I am so sickened and…fuck, I don’t know. Trigger warnings for that link.

    http://www.dailydot.com/news/adria-richards-fired-sendgrid-violent-backlash/

    Long story short: Woman in tech tweets a photo of two men in the audience making sexist jokes at tech conference. One of the men gets fired. She gets vicious hate mail, death threats, the whole deal. Her company is targeted by Anonymous. Her company decides to (very publicly) fire her.

  14. 514
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    *looks around*
    Apparently, I have wandered into the Thunderdome. It’s scary in here.

    Oggster:

    I just am good at fail.

    No you’re not. You totally suck at fail. You’re the worst failer I’ve ever seen! ;)

  15. 515
    Helen Huntingdon

    Audley, so far this thread is easier to parse than the other two I’ve commented on.

  16. 516
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    I particularly enjoyed the way annejones turned 4 points into 6.

    (1) special kidney cells that can
    (2) sense oxygen and
    (3) make erythropoietin, and
    (4) bone marrow cells with
    (5) erythropoietin receptors that can turn into red blood cells and
    (6) produce hemoglobin.

  17. 517
    Inaji

    Casus Fortuitus:

    Interesting stuff around the subject of toxic masculinity, which I see was discussed somewhere upthread.

    Lad culture/Laddism was briefly discussed when some of us brought up Guyland by Michael Kimmel. Some people were very quick to deny such a thing existed, or if it did, it was no big deal at all. Hey, it’s not ‘merica, so these patriarchal-based behaviours just don’t happen, eh?

  18. 518
    Inaji

    Helen:

    Audley, so far this thread is easier to parse than the other two I’ve commented on.

    Audley was having a little joke there. :)

  19. 519
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Helen:
    Usually I find the Thunderdome too involved to keep track of. Even when I was commenting every day, I didn’t keep up with what was going on in here– either I had no idea what people were talking about or the conversation didn’t interest me. But this time someone called me out, so I figured that I might as well read what they wrote. To be honest I haven’t even looked at the rest of the thread.

  20. 520
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Hello, Caine! Not to be a total mushy mush mush-face, but I’ve missed you. How’s things?

  21. 521
    Thumper: Who Presents Boxes Which Are Not Opened

    @Ze Madmax

    Which is why it would be really fucked up to, say, make fun of people for having a colostomy bag. calling someone a colostomy bag is not like making fun of people who need them, however, so your argument that ‘colostomy bag –> self-consciousness; therefore ableism’ doesn’t hold.

    Actually, I think you’re wrong there. By that logic, calling someone a retard is fine because it’s not the same as making fun of someone who actually has mental diffculties. Doesn’t really fly. It isn’t a great analogy, I know, a colostomy bag is a medical device needed for a specific condition and not an insulting term for a specific condition, but I’m convinced by Tccc’s argument for the potential of splashback. Initially I was like “But a colostomy bag is a shitbag”, but now Tccc has fleshed their argument out I’m convinced. I can see how someone with a bag would find that uncomfortable.

    However, everything you said after the quoted comment, I agree with you.

  22. 522
    Inaji

    Audley:

    Hello, Caine! Not to be a total mushy mush mush-face, but I’ve missed you. How’s things?

    Hallo, Audley! I’ve missed you too, I hope Darkling allows you more free time soon. Oh, same old shit. Still working, several rats have died, the rest of them are all doing really well. Our truck also decided to die, so had to go vehicle shopping (Christ, what a pain) and Mister is threatening to get rid of Jayne, who has decided he can only shit in the house now. So, not stressed at all. Oh, had our 34th anniversary this month. How’s things with you?

  23. 523
    carlie

    Anthony K, if you come over here for awhile, I’m really sorry about how these threads are affecting you. We’ve got your back, so you don’t need to participate any more than you want to – there will still be other people doing the yelling. And you can always just hang out in the Lounge or whatever. I feel awful that it’s that wearing on you.

  24. 524
    LykeX

    So, annejones. Does the fact that you’ve returned without answering any of the previous questions that were even posted on the blog you made mean that you concede that those arguments were flawed?
    If not, why don’t we deal with the first set of arguments before you bring up a new set.

  25. 525
    Pearson

    tccc,

    I used to be an Assistant Teacher for adults with severe developmental problems. Most of the clients in the facility were incapable of basic self-care and they often had medical conditions that accompanied the other challenges including a hard time managing the whole breathing and eating/drinking through the same tube that annejones doesn’t seem to think is an issue. One of my clients had a colostomy bag. She was a really great and lovely person, but the actual physical bag was seriously gross. She was never treated poorly or looked down on in our care because of her medical issues. The bag though, it was prone to filling with gas throughout the day and needed to be gently wiped along the edges to ensure a proper hold and to have the gas let out. There is a massive difference in referring to the actual bag, which I doubt anyone would deny is pretty disgusting including those that have them, and referring to those who require the use of one.

    I also want to just point out that as an adult who has been living with Panic Disorder with Agoraphobia since I was 13, your callous remark about having only one hour of adult interaction a day was pretty fucking nasty. I find it hard to believe that you are so upset over someone pointing out the nastiness of a colostomy bag while implying that those who do not have a sufficient enough amount of adult time in your opinion are somehow assholes. I was trying to get the point you were trying to make up until you danced out that pretty little line of bullshit. Thanks for that. You should spend less time policing others and more time checking how much splash damage you’re doing, eh?

  26. 526
    David Marjanović

    Thanks, Beatrice.

    So, annejones. Does the fact that you’ve returned without answering any of the previous questions that were even posted on the blog you made mean that you concede that those arguments were flawed?

    Iiiiiiiiiiiiinteresting. Makes a blog, gets comments, and never returns. Hit-and-run blogging – the next level of hit-and-run commenting!

    Or is it a crisis of faith?

  27. 527
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    tccc:

    Hey, asshole

    Wait, assholes are okay, but colostomy bags aren’t? Don’t they have like essentially the same function?

    I mentioned to you that I do not think it is right to use someone’s prosthetic as an insulting term, people have feelings you know.

    And I have feelings too, but you called me an asshole. Boo hoo hoo.

    The thing is, if you want to call someone a shit bag, have at it, but using someone’s medical device that also happens to collect stool as a funny/cute/edgy/educated/whateverthefuck euphemism for shit bag is not ok if you really are trying to avoid collateral damage in your insults.

    So, in short, a shit bag is a shit bag unless you say it’s insulting. I’m sure glad that you speak for all people with colostomies.

    “Also happens to collect stool”? What, it’s got another function? Can it do my taxes? Make toast? Paper train the dog?

    I have direct experience working with young people and middle aged folks with a range of differences out doing daily activities and an ostomy bag was unfortunately a source of embarrassment or self consciousness sometimes.

    And so does having braces. So what?

    The best way to handle it in any circumstance was to treat it like the medical device it was, no big fucking deal, it is what it is, no problem.

    And since you are apparently the spokesperson for everyone with a colostomy, answer this: Is a colostomy bag a pleasant thing? Is it something that a person would want to deal with day in and day out? Or is it something that, while necessary, is disgusting and frustrating?

    What was not helpful was the stigma attached to it by jerks like you.

    I didn’t say one word about people with colostomies. If I had said “Whathisface is as gross as someone with a colostomy” you’d have a point. As it is, I didn’t.

    https://www.ostomy.org/forum/index.php

    Okay, I skimmed over the discussion topics and I don’t see anything about objections to using “colostomy bag” as an insult. In fact, most of it seems to be about medical advice (and one young person in love. Awe!). This proves your point how?

    (Maybe you should read links before you post them.)

    Seeing as how you only get adult interaction 1 hour a day, that certainly explains your behavior and choice of insults.

    1) That’s not at all what I said.
    2) Way to insult everyone who cares for children (which, coincidentally, also happens to be work that is dominated by women). In your effort to get under my skin, you have called stay at home parents, teachers, day care workers, nannies, etc assholes because they spend the majority of their time with children. What was your point about collateral damage?

    (Also, what Ze Madmax said.)

    And not caring about other people’s feelings? That is just par for the course for assholes, no need to state it explicitly.

    I never said that I didn’t care about people’s feelings, I said that I don’t think that “colostomy bag” was ableist (see reasons above). I certainly don’t care about your hurt widdle feefees, though.

    Your incapacity for discussion has been well demonstrated, no need to reply unless it is just to make yourself feel better.

    ???
    You new around here? I think that I’ve amply demonstrated that I can have rational discussion over the past 4 years or so that I’ve been commenting. The fact that I didn’t put a whole hell of a lot of effort into this discussion (until now) only demonstrates that I don’t have a whole hell of a lot of time to devote to arguing with a stranger on the internet about shit bags.

    The only reason to end by telling me not to respond is so you can puff yourself up and chant “I won! I won! I won!” until it starts to sound like the truth.

    In the mean time, if I want to call someone a sack of shit, I’ll do it without the increased potential for collateral damage and stigmatization.

    Those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

    But hey. Pharyngula has many thousands (at least) of readers. There has got to be someone with a colostomy out there (and not tccc: Official Spokesperson for everyone with a colostomy)– would you be willing to chime in? For the record, I referred to someone as a colostomy bag.

  28. 528
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Makes a blog, gets comments, and never returns. Hit-and-run blogging – the next level of hit-and-run commenting!

    Wasn’t there a person, back in the BS days, who would create an entirely new blog for each post and then fill up much of the comment section with sock puppets?

  29. 529
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Thumper:
    I disagree that calling someone a colostomy bag has the potential for splash damage. Who is harmed by using a shitbag as an insult? I also do not see where Tccc made a good case for such.

  30. 530
    tccc

    Tony @ 501: I didn’t call Audley ableist, I said I felt they made an abelist comment. I fully admit the term is new to me, only learned here, but not having sensitivity to the fact that using a medical device required by lots of people as an insult sure seems to fit the definition to me, but I that could be wrong, as I said, I am no expert on the term.

    Ze @ 510: I fully understand the difference between insulting someone who uses an ostomy bag and using colostomy bag as an insult.

    As I said, the further stigmatization of that device is causing some people unwarranted grief that is easy enough to avoid. Using it as an insult stigmatizes the device.

    I am not seeing any good justifications for why it is ok to use somepeople’s prosthetic as a general insult. Just because that device happens to collect stool does not mean you get to use it as a euphemism for shit bag in an insulting way.

    For all the talk of safe space around here, are you really suggesting that using someone’s medical device as an insult to others is making a safe space for people who use that device or does considerations of others only extend to people who’s medical devices or conditions are not shit related?

    Really I am totally lost here on this one. As far as I can tell the only justifications for why it is ok to use colostomy bag as an insult are:

    1. It collects feces so it is the same as calling someone a shit bag
    2. It wasn’t used to insult someone who uses one or someone who uses one was not insulted

    1 is just demonstrably false. Shit bag can mean all sorts of things that are not colostomy bags, I never think of a colostomy bag when someone says shit bag. When you call someone a colostomy bag, you very specifically calling them a medical device used by thousands of people.

    2. ignores that fact that by collateral damage you are specifically talking about harm caused to people who were not the target of the insult.

    Neither of those seem persuasive to me when it is established that some people who have to use ostomy bags are embarrassed by it sometimes and using colostomy bag as an insult contributes to further stigmatizing the device.

  31. 531
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Also, are there other types of shit bags in regular use? For instance: Do sailors keep [insert jaunty nautical euphemism for shit bags here] on their boats?

  32. 532
    Inaji

    Tony:

    I also do not see where Tccc made a good case for such.

    They didn’t. It seems to me that Thumper tends to be easily influenced.

  33. 533
    tccc

    I didn’t say one word about people with colostomies. If I had said “Whathisface is as gross as someone with a colostomy” you’d have a point. As it is, I didn’t.

    Ya, here is where the disconnect is for me. No you didn’t say people with colostomy bags are gross, you just said colostomy bags are gross. I get that.

    I didn’t say people with prosthetic limbs are ugly and disgusting, I just said prosthetic limbs are ugly and disgusting.

    I see no difference meaningful difference between one type of prosthetic and another. Yes, one is designed to collect waste from the body, that is its sole purpose. So what? That means it is fair game for using as an insult?

    That fact that some people are required to use some devices means that if you stigmatize the device, you are collaterally stigmatizing the person who uses one.

  34. 534
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Remember kids: It’s only collateral damage if tccc says it is!

  35. 535
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Caine:
    Oof. When it rains, it pours, eh? Poor ratties. Poor Jayne.

    But woo hoo on the anniversary!

    I’m good and the Darkling is upset because she’s getting another tooth, but otherwise she’s pretty fantastic.

  36. 536
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Remember kids: It’s only collateral damage if tccc says it is!

    Who the fuck cares whatt tccc says? Really, get your ego down to the proper point tccc. You’ve expressed your opinion, and nobody gives a shit. Deal with that elsewhere.

  37. 537
    tccc

    @531 I use a shit bag 3 times a day when I walk my dog.

  38. 538
    Helen Huntingdon

    Hooloovoo, that article was terrifying. Thanks for the link.

  39. 539
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Nerd:

    Deal with that elsewhere.

    There’s a masturbation† in there somewhere.
    HEYO!

    †Not in my spellcheck, interestingly enough. What the hell, Google?

  40. 540
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Tccc:
    You ought to pick a stance. Did Audleys comment SEEM ableist or not? I have seen you go from weasel word uncertainty to confident and back.

    I worry how you will react to hearing someone called a douchebag.

  41. 541
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Tccc,
    Care to actually take a crack at my more substantial points instead of the one-off?

  42. 542
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Audley, are you still oppressing people by noting that unfortunate devices no one ever wants voluntarily are gross?

  43. 543
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Also I told on you on Twitter, A.

  44. 544
    LykeX

    I think tccc‘s point is that the colostomy bag is sufficiently personal that it starts to overlap with the person itself. I.e. one cannot so easily distinguish between the tool and the user. I’m not sure I completely agree, but I’m not entirely sure I can dismiss it, either.

    People with colostomy bags didn’t choose to have them. It’s not like they can just take it off and go without. It’s not like other tools that you can put down and walk away from; it’s semi-permanently attached to your body.
    It’s something that they’re often extremely self-conscious about, especially concerning ideas of cleanliness. They easily come to feel dirty, which causes all sorts of trouble in social situations and regarding intimacy. When the bag is used as an insult, specifically because of the quality of being “dirty”, that might well have some bleed-over.

    And then I’m left with the question: is it really that important an insult that I’d want to risk the fall-out for those people? I don’t think so.

  45. 545
    Inaji

    Audley:

    I’m good and the Darkling is upset because she’s getting another tooth, but otherwise she’s pretty fantastic.

    Oy, teething time? Poor Darkling and poor you. Share a shot of whiskey. :D

  46. 546
    Inaji

    LykeX:

    I think tccc‘s point

    I think tccc’s complete, uncalled for, toxic nastiness over Audley’s adult time gives an accurate illustration of just how much of a flaming asshole they are. As for colostomy bags, as I related in the initial thread, many people who have them have a good sense of humour about them and wouldn’t really appreciate being seen as fragile little flowers who will break apart over colostomy bag being used as an insult one time.

  47. 547
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I refuse to believe that people identify with their colostomies, sorry.

    Josh:
    I just can’t help myself. I’m a terrible human bean.

  48. 548
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Right? The movie wasn’t called Not Without My Colostomy Bag, was it?

  49. 549
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Can I joke about adult diapers or do I have to clear it with tccc first?

  50. 550
    Pearson

    tccc:

    You continue to carry the torch to demonstrate your rightness on the ableist nature of the use of colostomy bag as an insult while simultaneously ignoring the fact that I pointed out that your comment about a lack of adult time was fucking insulting to me. I stated that I have Panic Disorder with Agoraphobia and have been dealing with that for 18 years. My diagnosis limits my freedom of movement in the world and limits the time I can spend socializing with adults. Further, I have three kids, two of them with special needs which also greatly limit the time I have to socialize on the internet. Your comment caused me splash damage and insulted me with its implication. Why is it more important for you to fight for those with colostomy bags (which I am not getting a sense includes you, though correct me if I am wrong please) while ignoring the very real shit you spewed all over the place in here to people who are actually here to tell you its harm?

  51. 551
    tccc

    caine @ 546, Whatever, Audley behaved like a child from her first reply to me. I said I thought one comment from them was a problem, intentional or not, in what I thought was not insulting or argumentative and the sum total of their response was to call me a dumbass. Then they sarcastically tell me I should be honored they spent their adult time with me, as if I wasn’t worth wasting their time on.

    I didn’t mean to insult anyone by that comment and I apologize. I just meant I found Audley to be childish in their dealings with me.

  52. 552
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Caine:
    The Darkling is teething very early– she had her first tooth before she was 4 months old. (For most kids, it happens around 8 months.)

    I could definitely go for a shot in my coffee, now that you mention it.

  53. 553
    tccc

    If I haven’t made it clear, I do not know if the comment is abelist or not, I am no expert on that. I do know it can be hurtful to people that use colostomy bags to use it as an insult, even one not directed at them. Not everyone , no, they are not going to crumble and wither, but really, medical devices are just medical devices.

    Do I think Audley is ableist? Absolutely not. I thought the comment was, I could be wrong about that label for the comment.

  54. 554
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    So why not just call me childish, asshole? Oh, wait, were you trying to sound sophisticated or educated or whatever?

  55. 555
    David Marjanović

    Ah. Did I call Matt out on this mindset before, or was that someone else?* He equated not fully thinking everything through to all its logical conclusions* with deliberately lying, and got angry at it. Lots of people tried to explain his misunderstanding to him, but he just refused to consider the idea that he could have been mistaken – no matter how in-your-face absurd his conclusion was.

    * …Thinking about it, that was probably SGBM… yes, it was, and he prompty said he’d reconsider.
    ** Which in this case just means not coming to the same conclusions as he did. Or, extremely charitably to him, just not knowing at least as many facts about the issue as he did, and therefore coming to different conclusions. Nope, he doesn’t seem to have considered any of those options. It must all be a lie, and everybody needs to apologise to him (rather than, say, the other way around). *headdesk* *headdesk* *headdesk*

    I’ve said insensitive things before. I’ve tried to have whole insensitive discussions. But I don’t think I’ve ever gone that far.

    Christ, what an asshole.

  56. 556
    tccc

    Audley @ 549, you don’t have to clear it with me, but I wouldn’t joke about adult diapers for exactly the same reason I wouldn’t use colostomy bag as an insult: It is stigmatizing something people have to use for medical reasons, something they may already be self conscious about.

  57. 557
    David Marjanović

    prompty

    That did look wrong somehow. :-]

    Wasn’t there a person, back in the BS days, who would create an entirely new blog for each post and then fill up much of the comment section with sock puppets?

    John A Davison! Dead, but still banned on Pharyngula!

  58. 558
    tccc

    Audley, really, I think you are being a jerk about this issue, but if I made a comment that was insulting in someway I did not realize, which I think I have, I sincerely apologize. I am not a parent and really the only part that registered with me was the adult time, why you had to spend time with kids didn’t enter my mind and I did not mean to disparage that reason, parenthood or anything else.

  59. 559
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    So everything that someone could possibly maybe be ashamed about is off limits?

    I was right, you have no idea what “ableist” means.

    Care to take a crack at the rest of my points?

  60. 560
    Inaji

    Audley:

    The Darkling is teething very early– she had her first tooth before she was 4 months old. (For most kids, it happens around 8 months.)

    Gad, not even time to brace yourself! Well, maybe it’s best, getting this bit over with early.

  61. 561
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Caine:
    That’s what I keep telling myself. :)

  62. 562
    Inaji

    Pearson:

    I stated that I have Panic Disorder with Agoraphobia and have been dealing with that for 18 years. My diagnosis limits my freedom of movement in the world and limits the time I can spend socializing with adults.

    I’m sorry you deal with such debilitating disorders, Pearson. They make things difficult, to say the least. I get to deal with PTSD, hypervigilance, oneirophobia and hypnophobia. Those don’t limit my freedom of movement though. I’m not a social person in any way, however, and I have limits as to how long and how much I can deal with other adults, especially in a social setting, so I wasn’t terribly amused by that display of douchebaggery either.

  63. 563
    Pteryxx

    Pardon the interruption, y’all, but Chris Clarke just took a break from the Reminder thread.

  64. 564
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Pteryxx,

    Yeah, I don’t know what to say about that. The last couple of days have been really weird and I’m not surprised people are finding it too much to handle.

    It’s one of those “what the hell is going on with this place” phases again. I haven’t gone through many of those, so I can’t imagine how it feels for those who have been around longer.

  65. 565
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Jesus, Pteryxx.

  66. 566
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    Pardon the interruption, y’all, but Chris Clarke just took a break from the Reminder thread.

    Yeah, and so am I, for the same reasons. I’ve had enough today already.

  67. 567
    Pteryxx

    Leaving this here for background information:

    *warning: more Steubenville stuff*

    This *is* yet another article talking about the boys, but it does contain an important point: current research is showing that juvenile offenders have much lower recidivism rates than rapists caught as adults. The article suggests this means rehabilitation can be effective, which I distrust… IMHO it’s likely that increased public awareness and changing attitudes in criminal justice could account for the shift easily. Anyway, something to keep watch on.

    Source (from Salon)

  68. 568
    Pteryxx

    Yeah, I’m taking a break too… basically already disengaged from what remains of the discussion over there.

  69. 569
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m really not in a good place right now. Gonna take a break. Talk to y’all later.

  70. 570
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Take care, everyone.
    *hugs*

  71. 571
    tccc

    I thought I had addressed the main issue, stigmatizing someone’s prostetic has a real potential to cause the person to feel stigmatized. But if you mean your other points in 527, sure, most seemed rehtorical, but I missed your last one, which I put first here.

    2) Way to insult everyone who cares for children (which, coincidentally, also happens to be work that is dominated by women). In your effort to get under my skin, you have called stay at home parents, teachers, day care workers, nannies, etc assholes because they spend the majority of their time with children. What was your point about collateral damage?

    I sincerly apologize for that comment. You are right I did not intend to insult or disparage the work or the people that do it. I understand and appreciate its value and know that it is often discounted and disparage, I didn’t mean to do that. That was an unthinking comment that I really regret.

    Wait, assholes are okay, but colostomy bags aren’t? Don’t they have like essentially the same function?

    Closer is the ostomy bag is the same function as the rectum when used for solid waste, collecting feces until it can be eliminated from the body. That is why it is a prostetic, it is essentially a prostetic rectum.

    And I have feelings too, but you called me an asshole. Boo hoo hoo.

    And you called me a dumbass, we’ll just have to call that even.

    So, in short, a shit bag is a shit bag unless you say it’s insulting. I’m sure glad that you speak for all people with colostomies.

    I don’t know what you mean exactly. I specifically said shit bag can mean more things than a ostomy bag. I didn’t say it was insulting, you used it as an insult. I didn’t say I spoke for all people with colostomys.

    “Also happens to collect stool”? What, it’s got another function? Can it do my taxes? Make toast? Paper train the dog?

    It can also collect urine. My point was that it is a prostetic medical device first and foremost, its function should really be incidental. Someone has a medical problem for which they need a prostetic device to help them live their lives, who cares what it does, lets afford them all the same respect by not using them to insult other people.

    And so does having braces. So what?

    Ya, so what? I wouldn’t use braces of whatever type, as an insult either.

    Okay, I skimmed over the discussion topics and I don’t see anything about objections to using “colostomy bag” as an insult. In fact, most of it seems to be about medical advice (and one young person in love. Awe!). This proves your point how?

    The point was you did not have to take my word for the fact that colostomy bags can cause embarrassment or self conciousness or that people felt stigmatized having to use them.

    And since you are apparently the spokesperson for everyone with a colostomy, answer this: Is a colostomy bag a pleasant thing? Is it something that a person would want to deal with day in and day out? Or is it something that, while necessary, is disgusting and frustrating?

    Strawman of me claiming to be the spokesperson for everyon with a colostomy, I never said that. I can’t speak for anyone else as to your question, I wouldn’t want to have to deal with any prostetic if I could avoid it. Not sure I can avoid it, but would rather not.

    I didn’t say one word about people with colostomies. If I had said “Whathisface is as gross as someone with a colostomy” you’d have a point. As it is, I didn’t.

    I already answered this and it is my main point. You are missing that stigmatizing someone’s prostetic device has the unintended consequence, at least in some cases, of stigmatizing the person.

  72. 572
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Pteryxx, Oggie, Caine, Chris:

    Take care you all.

  73. 573
    Pearson

    Everyone taking breaks, take care! Sorry you’re not in a good place, Ogvorbis. Hope things get better.

    Caine: wow, I can see you have a lot on your plate as well. It has been difficult for me, but in the past few years, having a great support system has really allowed me to expand my safe zone quite a lot. I’ll never solo drive through Boston or anything, but I’m in a better place than I have been. Weirdest thing I encounter wrt Agoraphobia lately is those that somehow think that having Agoraphobia means I’m a hoarder… I always get brain pain from those stupid assumptions.

    A question on things that are stigmatizing becoming ableist: if I call someone an asspimple, am I stigmatizing people who get pimples on their ass?

    tccc, I appreciate the apology above. The one that had the if’s thrown in was not as good, but I’ll let that slide since the other apologies were not so waffley.

    I’m heading back to the reminder thread… only got about half of the way through it before I had to go wait for school buses.

  74. 574
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Tccc:
    Your assertion [stigmatizing a colostomy bag causes splash damage to those who need them]…
    Do you have any evidence to support this? Given your admitted newness to ableism, what is informing this belief? Have people actually said that? Or are you making the assumption that any splash damage would occur?
    I might be willing to consider your point valid if we move from what appears to be a hypothetical to discussing actual concerns people have.
    So…evidence?
    (Preferably a link directly to a quote rather than a link to a forum where one has no clue where to look; the onus is on you to support your assertion, not on anyone digging around an entire forum for FSM knows how long trying to seek your proof)

  75. 575
    glodson

    To all those taking a break, take care of yourselves.

    And I understand why.

  76. 576
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    glodson:
    Yeah, after catching up on the reminder thread, I see the need some people have for breaks.

  77. 577
    David Marjanović

    StevoR is getting piled upon. Can you imagine? He actually peddled karma. *Picard & Riker double facepalm*

    Pardon the interruption, y’all, but Chris Clarke just took a break from the Reminder thread.

    Gah. I’ll go have a look.

  78. 578
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    David:
    The odious opinions he holds deserve the piling on.

  79. 579
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    Dr. AZD:

    Also, are there other types of shit bags in regular use?

    http://bunbag.com/

    I miss Central Park. ;-)

  80. 580
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Gah!

    Trigger Warning:

    I venture to Mano’s blog for the first time in months and see another case eerily similar to the Steubenville sexual assault.
    On top of that, an appalling comment by slc1 continues the ‘women lie sbout rape’ myth. I hope Mano releases my comment from moderation soon. I had to remind myself that wasn’t responding here, because I wanted to cuss out the douche:

    The problem here is that a significant number of rape and other accusations, such as paternity are ofter phoney, or at best dubious. Case in point, the Duke lacrosse players who were accused of rape. It was later found that the DA, one Michael Nifong, hid exculpatory evidence and the players were finally exonerated by the state’s attorney general. It should be noted that the complainant has subsequently been charged with murder in an unrelated incident. Another example was the notorious Kobe Bryant case in Colorado where the complainant, Kate Faber, was found to have lied under oath in a pre-trial hearing in the judges chambers. More recently, there was the notorious case of the woman in California who accused pop singing star Justin Bieber of being the father of her child. DNA proved that the accusation was false.
    http://freethoughtblogs.com/singham/2013/03/21/attacking-the-victim-has-got-to-stop/#comment-308693

    Isnt thst crap out of an MRA handbook?

  81. 581
    mythbri

    @Tony

    I can’t even.

    There are just too many of them, and I feel like I’ve seen and argued with them all this week.

    I need to take a break from people who say things like “so-called date rape.”

  82. 582
    ck

    @Hooloovoo
    I read about that over at The Verge. Terrifying situation, but I suppose shit like this is just one of the many reasons why women are so rare in technology careers.

  83. 583
    Amphiox

    Irreducible Complexity is the final nail in the coffin of evolution;

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA…..!

    Oh please, could you at least try to come up with something original, instead of a decades-old zombie idea that was already debunked and destroyed within a week of its first proposal?

  84. 584
    glodson

    @Tony

    I’ve seen that asshole around a few places here. I am starting to think that people like him, the hyperskeptic type, are so in need of evidence that they are compelled to provide a mountain of evidence on how big of an asshole they are.

  85. 585
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Tony

    slc1

    That nym sounds familiar. IIRC, some nasty piece-of-works from way-back-when.

  86. 586
  87. 587
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    mythbri:
    I completely understand your need for a break. Your health and well being should always take priority.
    Be well my friend.

  88. 588
    rorschach

    theophontes,

    do you by any chance have any experience with flying business class with any Chinese airlines? Im looking at flights to Europe via Guangzhou or Shanghai, because some of them don’t make me wait in some airport for 14 hours, like with most of the major carriers for some reason.

  89. 589
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Good morning.

    No sleep.

    Some new memories (nothing shocking, just, shit. More of the shit,

    Sorry to dump this here. I feel really guilty making you all participants in my failures.

  90. 590
    richardh

    I particularly enjoyed the way annejones turned 4 points into 6.

    (1) special kidney cells that can
    (2) sense oxygen and
    (3) make erythropoietin, and
    (4) bone marrow cells with
    (5) erythropoietin receptors that can turn into red blood cells and
    (6) produce hemoglobin.

    <thinks> Hmmm. Why shouldn’t I learn some real biology as a result of annejones’ IDiocy? </thinks>
    So… are there any Real Biologists™ here who can explain why the “designer” of this interesting feedback system chose to put the oxygen sensors in the kidneys, instead of somewhere nearer to where the cells are made? Is it an adaptation of some other function that the kidney cells were already performing?

  91. 591
    John Morales

    Ogvorbis:

    Sorry to dump this here.

    No, no, nononono!

    You do yourself no favour, you do us no favours by this subservience timidity.

    No.

    (Pretty please?)

    Seriously: it is our pleasure and our privilege to have your trust, and you’re among friends.

  92. 592
    John Morales

    Ogvorbis, I want to make it clear you have my sympathy for your difficult journey and my encouragement on your progress — and I think you’ve helped at least some others on their own journey by your example.

  93. 593
    LykeX

    @Ogvorbis

    First, nothing to be sorry about. This is part of the whole point of a community. Second, the mental fall-out from other people’s actions aren’t your failures. It’s theirs.

  94. 594
    chigau (違う)

    Ogvorbis
    You are among friends, here.
    Don’t stop commenting.

  95. 595
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Ogvorbis,

    Seconding John Morales, LykeX and chigau.

    *safe hugs*

  96. 596
    joey

    Nick Gotts here:

    But the notion of human value underlies this “capacity of empathy” of which you speak. – me
    As so often, you have things exactly backwards. We know that some non-human animals have empathy, because we see them exercise it. We know that they don’t have any “notion of (objective) canine (or whatever) value”, because such a notion requires a linguistic capacity they do not possess. – Nick

    But the causes of animal behavior are not necessarily identical to the causes of human behavior. If you see a spider spinning a web, would you conclude that the spider is exercising the same type of rationality as a human building a cabin? – me

    Of course they are not identical; if you read what I said again, you will see that I mention the human linguistic capacity other animals do not possess. But you were claiming, without the slightest evidence, that the notion of intrinsic value underlies the capacity for empathy.

    No, I didn’t claim that one has to believe in intrinsic value in order to empathize. As you can see from the first sentence in the dialogue sequence above, I didn’t mention the word “intrinsic”. There I simply meant that the notion of human value (whether it’s considered intrinsic or extrinsic) underlies the capacity for empathy. In other words Person A must first recognize and value the humanity of Person B before Person A could empathize with Person B. Whether A believes B’s value is intrinsic to B or is merely A’s own subjective opinion/preference is a separate question.

    Of course one doesn’t need to believe in intrinsic human value in order to empathize. Many here claim to not believe in intrinsic human value, and I don’t question at all their ability to empathize with others. What I do claim is that they actually value the people with whom they can empathize, and this valuing is what underlies their capacity of empathy.

    Going back to the examples I gave earlier, why exactly do I have a small capacity of empathy for the cow that I ate for dinner or the pig that I had for breakfast? Why do I have a much larger capacity of empathy for a newborn child? Why does a slave-owner have little empathy for the slave, or a rapist for the rape victim?

    Anyway, the discussion above is actually besides the point. My main point is that decent people (or at least all non-”psychopaths”) live/speak as if intrinsic human value exists because not only do they value humans simply for the sake of being humans, but they essentially demand that others feel the same. My point would have been much more apparent if you attempted to answer some of the questions I asked you previously

    Let’s say someone doesn’t care about the interests and preferences of others, or at least a certain group of people. Is that wrong? -me

    Yes, in terms of my system of values, it’s wrong. What I mean by that is that I will try to stop them harming others by trampling on their interests and preferences. -Nick

    But if it doesn’t concern you, why exactly should you impose your system of values on others? For example, if abusive parents don’t want to recognize the interests/preferences of their own children, why should your value system trump the parents’ value system, especially if the children don’t concern you (or at least not nearly to the same degree as the children do to their own parents)?

    And what happens if a child is so young (in the case of an infant) that it can be argued that it is completely incapable of having interests/preferences at all? What does your value system say about these very young children? -me

    What are your answers to these questions?

  97. 597
    tccc

    Tony! The Queer Shoop (now with clucking lights) @ 574:

    Your assertion [stigmatizing a colostomy bag causes splash damage to those who need them]…
    Do you have any evidence to support this? Given your admitted newness to ableism, what is informing this belief? Have people actually said that? Or are you making the assumption that any splash damage would occur?
    I might be willing to consider your point valid if we move from what appears to be a hypothetical to discussing actual concerns people have.
    So…evidence?

    I appreciate your point. I think the below research directly addresses it if I understand your question correctly.

    From Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health, 1984, 38, 284-290
    jech.bmj.com/content/38/4/284.full.pdf
    Stigma in patients with rectal cancer: a community study

    SUMMARY A self-rating measure of stigma and several supplementary questions were devised in order to assess perceived stigma in a community survey of the quality of life in 420 rectal cancer patients, of whom 265 had a permanent colostomy. Half the patients felt stigmatised, higher proportions being observed among younger patients and among those with a colostomy. Feelings of stigma were associated with poor health, particularly emotional disorders, with the presence of other medical problems, and with disablement. Patients who perceived stigma made more use of medical services but were less satisfied with them, particularly with regard to communication with health professionals. Socio-economic factors, such as employment status, higher income, and higher social and housing class, did not protect patients against feeling stigmatised by cancer or by colostomy.

    The following one is slightly less specific in that it focuses on disgust and how that relates to stigma and adjustment to colostomy, but does show that if one feels stigmatized by their colostomy it leads to lower life satisfaction

    From J Res Pers. 2007 August; 41(4): 787–803.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2031839/
    Sensitivity to disgust, stigma, and adjustment to life with a colostomy

    Abstract: … A structural equation model indicated that colostomy patients who had high disgust sensitivity felt more stigmatized, and this was in turn strongly related to lower life satisfaction.

    I understand this was just one off hand comment, my only point originally was that it was an off hand insensitive comment that could contribute to others feeling marginalized and stigmatized. I thought there was a chance that pointing it out would result in Audley thinking about it for a second and saying something like “Ya, that probably wasn’t the best.”

    I am at such a loss to understand how this group of people in particular, people my respect for is great and I have learned much from, do not agree that using someone’s medical device, a device we know has a stigma attached to it, as an insult doesn’t further that stigmatization and hence the associated problems with stigmatization of the device and should be avoided.

    I get this is tiresome and people think I just want to “win”, that is not the case. I will happily go back to what I have been doing, reading the comments to learn, I have said it before, I can’t thank you folks enough for education I have gotten here. I hope that next time someone considers using someone’s needed medical device (ostomy bag, incontinence device, catheter bag, etc) as an insult toward anyone or as a joke, they will consider the feelings of people who have to use that device that are not the target of the insult or joke.

    (By the way, thank you LykeX for trying to help me articulate what I clearly am not competent at articulating in the other thread. It was spot on.)

  98. 598
    PatrickG

    @ giuocopiano

    Response to your comment in the Richards thread, i.e. derail avoided via Thunderdome. :)

    My post wasn’t questioning PZ’s ethics about harassing women, which I am quite certain are beyond reproach (by my standards) — it was about what makes a truly safe space — and which spaces need to be truly safe — and to what extent people are on the same page about this.

    Yeah, there’s a lot to talk about here. I guess my position would be that it was a specific request for a volunteer. While the specific details weren’t “published” in advance, this does require agency and consent for whatever might follow — note that of course consent could have been withdrawn on stage — and an expectation of possible embarrassment.

    So yeah, for me it comes back to the agency of the volunteer. And having been involuntarily volunteered for similar situations (fiendish girlfriend — once the magician is beckoning you and 500 people are applauding, what choice do you really have? i got a t-shirt though), stepping onto that stage was definitely made with an expectation of being made to look foolish.

    Now, once the volunteer is up on the stage, there’s definitely question of awkwardness and unsafe spaces. The next question for me is whether the subject used for humor is going to create an unsafe space for (1) the volunteer after volunteering, and (2) the audience in general. A parallel consideration is whether PZ really would have been able to detect discomfort (above and beyond the ‘oh my i’m on stage’ variety). But having rewatched the clip, I, at least, think it was well done, that the sexualized content was explicitly put into the cards, and that PZ’s humor was well done and self-deprecating enough to be Just Fine, and an example of how Sex Can Be Funny Without Being Threatening.

    Of course, part of that assessment is that the only people who seem upset by it are people who hate PZ, weren’t there, and try to apply a double standard while displaying rampant assholishness themselves. Possible bias on my part, but I do think that PZ would handle complaints and touchy situations reasonably.

    Sorry if I came down like a ton of bricks on you there, but the post really did just seem wildly irrelevant. I hope you can understand my impression of deliberate derail.

    Also, for some reason wordpress is being really delinquent on sending me comment updates via email, so I’ll try to check in from time to time for any response.

  99. 599
    giuocopiano

    @PatrickG 598

    Thanks for your reply. I think your summary is very fair. Clearly Reap Paden and whoever else was publicizing it were not doing it to show that PZ is actually “sexist,” or whatever, but because they want to expose him to a charge of hypocrisy.

    No worries about tons of bricks – I’ve been lurking long enough to be prepared for it :-)

  100. 600
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Joey the presuppositionalist

    live/speak as if intrinsic human value exists

    Sorry, but this is you projecting your presuppositions and belief in your imaginary deity where it doesn’t belong. There is no intrinisic human value without your imaginary deity. Which doesn’t exist, as you can’t demonstrate that it does. So, if you are honest and have integrity, you must lose the presupposition of intrinisic human value. But we both know you are nothing but liar for your imaginary deity.

  101. 601
    glodson

    Fuck, the idiots are out in force today.

  102. 602
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Fuck, the idiots are out in force today.

    Wanna imagine getting drunk?
    I’m imagining drinking myself into oblivion.


    Actually, I’ll just make some popcorn and watch X-Files.

    People suck.

  103. 603
    Inaji

    Just read the front page. Imma continue working today, the idiots are indeed out in force.

  104. 604
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Caine,

    Yeah, good idea. Just wading through all the comments would take a lot of time and nerves, let alone fighting the idiocy later.

  105. 605
    glodson

    I’ve tried to help.

    But fuck, it is some weapons grade stupid.

  106. 606
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I want to help, but I feel I’m so late to the show all the good arguments have already been used and all that is left now is cleaning the vomit off the floor.

  107. 607
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    Yeah, good idea. Just wading through all the comments would take a lot of time and nerves, let alone fighting the idiocy later.

    Yeah, skimmed that mess. I’m not working either, Amelia’s taken over my left hand for napping purposes.

  108. 608
    glodson

    Hell, it is just… the arguments aren’t directly saying that Richards deserves the blame, however they are victim blaming nonsense.

    They want to blame her, but don’t want to say it. Which is a reason I hate when people play Devil Advocate. They want to make a point without making the point. A coward’s gambit, much like JAQing off. All of that, I’m not ____, but ____, and the whole host of arguments where the person dances around their point is an exercise in getting someone else to make their point for them.

  109. 609
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Caine,

    Awww. Now that’s the way to spend your time.

  110. 610
    Pearson

    glodson, Beatrice, and a few others:

    I saw the valiant efforts of you each in that thread. When it first popped up, I was intending on hopping in to help but the number of people trying to force the discussion onto what Richards did not do perfectly was doing my head in. They came out in force. Too many too quickly for me, really. Way too victim-blamey of a week. I seriously cannot stand how so many people cannot grasp that her lack of perfection does not mean she does not have a right to complain. I mean, WTF? It’s like those people that argue that Al Gore cannot be concerned about the environment because he rides on jets. The arguments do my head in.

    Caine:
    Awww. Thinking about Amelia curling up in your hand gave me a big smile.

  111. 611
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Beatrice:
    Initially I was not going to respond in the Adria thread. I saw that there were a number of people speaking up against the stupid that one more voice was unnecessary. Then I recalled Caine’s words about men speaking up. They have become like a mantra.

  112. 612
    chigau (違う)

    I’ll just leave this here.

    Biologist P.Z. Myers is most known for his outspoken attacks on religion, but at CSICon for the second year in a row, he surprised many by giving a straight science talk.

    from the March/April 2013 Skeptical Inquirer.
    It continues for two more paragraphs.
    Nothing bad.
    No picture, though.
    Chris Mooney got a picture.

  113. 613
    glodson

    Then I recalled Caine’s words about men speaking up.

    That’s what I tried to speak out.

    But some are just too fucking stupid to have any meaningful dialogue. I’m still pissed about the asshole’s slut shaming analogy.

  114. 614
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Then I recalled Caine’s words about men speaking up. They have become like a mantra.

    And I thank you for that, very, very much.

  115. 615
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    glodson:
    Hey, everyone does what she or he can. Being asked to speak up more doesn’t mean subjecting yourself to idiocy indefinitely.

    ****
    JAL and PatrickG:
    You are both awesome in that thread.

  116. 616
    glodson

    In the least shocking news, MB in that thread is also a liar.

  117. 617
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    dida,
    If we can help in any way, please comment again. There’s a bunch of us from Europe here, maybe we could assist you somehow.

    SGBM,
    You around? Haven’t seen you in a while.

  118. 618
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.
    Then I recalled Caine’s words about men speaking up. They have become like a mantra.

    And I thank you for that, very, very much.

    Caine, I’m sorry. I was in a really bad place even before that thread exploded and, I’m sorry, I just can’t right now.

  119. 619
    glodson

    Ogvorbis

    Fuck that guy. He’s the worst. He will literally say anything to make his point, his point that varies as from post to post.

    He’s proven that he’s an idiot. I can only hope that anyone reading his dribble see how irrelevant he should be.

  120. 620
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I went over there, saw this

    You can torture a child endlessly and give them no escape, then turn them loose on society. And there’s a strong likelihood that that child will come to harm others.

    and no. Just no. Sorry.

  121. 621
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    The guy is horrible. I hope PZ will ban him soon.

  122. 622
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    Caine, I’m sorry. I was in a really bad place even before that thread exploded and, I’m sorry, I just can’t right now.

    No worries, Ogvorbis. I stepped in over the “torture a child endlessly” crap, but that’s probably about it for me. I’m not in all that fine of a place myself. We can’t all do everything every time. You take all the time you need, and remember that we are here for you. Always.

  123. 623
    Pteryxx

    Alert sent. Sorry I didn’t see all this sooner.

  124. 624
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Oggie,

    *hugs*
    You know that guy is a piece of shit and saying horrible wrong things. I’m not letting your subconscious thoughts take him seriously. I have no idea how I’m supposed to stop it , but I’m not letting a dehumanizing asshole get you doubting yourself again.

    massive safe hugs to both you and Caine

    *that’s the third time I typed peace instead of piece

  125. 625
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I have no idea how I’m supposed to stop it

    it being the “your subconscious thoughts take[ing] him seriously”, I see it might look like it was referring to the asshole.

  126. 626
    glodson

    I don’t know what to say. I’m in a bit of shock.

    I knew this guy was an asshole. I dismissed him as such earlier when he tried his stupid bullshit of switching the genders and then making horrible insults about his hypothetical women.

    In that thread, there are issues that should be talked about. He exists because he wants to derail the conversation. He’s a wasted space here.

    Sorry to everyone subjected to his thoughtless and disgusting posts.

  127. 627
    Inaji

    I sent an alert too. Jesus fuck, that sort of godsdamned crap I do not need. I’m even angrier on Ogvorbis’s behalf, because he’s in a worse place than me right now.

  128. 628
    vaiyt

    Can you people help me? A friend is asking me a question, but I need some help with the fact-checking.

    http://awarenessact.com/index.php?do=%2Farticle%2F30%2Furgent-march-23rd-2013-obamacare-mandates-rfid-chip%2F

    How much bullshit there is in this link?

  129. 629
    glodson

    @ vaiyt

    http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/microchip.asp

    Ummm, all of it?

  130. 630
    Inaji

    Vaiyt:

    How much bullshit there is in this link?

    One thing I can say without clicking the link is that any article which has “Obamacare” in the title calls for hip waders due to the amount of bullshit.

  131. 631
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    Ogvorbis, man I am so sorry. That guy is a piece of work. *hugs* if you want them.

  132. 632
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    *hugs* to all those triggered by the Richards thread. Sorry I’m not in there too, I just haven’t got the energy to fight right now. I’m in phone tree hell trying to find someone to talk to about where my unemployment benefits are and where my food stamps are.

  133. 633
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Yeah, I am heading to work fairly pissed off about Best’s bullshit.
    Oggie, Caine be well.

  134. 634
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Fighting someone every day is becoming really tiring.

  135. 635
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    And I haven’t even been very active anywhere but in the Lounge and here for a while, I only went back to commenting on other threads some short time ago. Ugh, people are just horrible.

    Kudos to all the regulars who’ve been dealing with this for years.

  136. 636
    Inaji

    I’ve had enough. I cannot take EllenBeth’s crap on top of everything else. Asshat.

  137. 637
    glodson

    It has to be some sort of ego defense for some people. Not that it matters, but I imagine some of them must see they are wrong, but not want to deal with the admission.

    Fuck, at least, I hope.

  138. 638
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    It’s all just so ridiculous. I know they are serious, and that’s frightening, but I can’t force myself to give them serious answers any more.
    All I can do is sarcasm and hyperbole and occasional headdesk.

  139. 639
    glodson

    The only reason to give them any serious response would be for lurkers out there.

    But fuck, it is so… I don’t even know, I mean… fuck, I’m pretty dumb and I can see the major faults in what passes for reasoning from some of these people.

  140. 640
    Rawnaeris, Lulu Cthulhu

    Beatrice, I can’t even manage to come up with the sarcasm today.
    All I’m managing is disgust, despair, and sorrow for those who got triggered.

  141. 641
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    glodson,

    There are a lot of you talking seriously, so I can let myself go with verbal equivalents of headdesking.

  142. 642
    Inaji

    Like Beatrice, I have every reason to believe they are serious. EllenBeth certainly is and proud of it, too.

  143. 643
    glodson

    Maybe I’m just being overly optimistic. Probably am.

    Not that it matters why they say what they say, as it does nothing to lessen the harm.

    Beatrice: Others did a great job handling that thread. I just skipped to being insulting. Mention sexism pointed out by a woman, wait for people to blame her. Like goddamned clockwork.

  144. 644
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    glodson,

    I let the fucks fly quite quickly too. I’m sick of sexism. Sexism everywhere.

  145. 645
    glodson

    It isn’t just the sexism. It is the willful ignorance one has to commit to in order to be sexist.

    That is where I get angry, as it is one thing to trip over one’s preconceived notions. It happens. It is another thing to run into the middle of the room, and spike these notions as one does a celebratory dance.

  146. 646
    Inaji

    Glodson:

    Maybe I’m just being overly optimistic. Probably am.

    You are in EllenBeth’s case. FFS, she’s proud of suppressing a harassment complaint at a conference. I just don’t have words.

  147. 647
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Yeah, that too. It sometimes feels like banging one’s head into a brick wall would bring better results than wasting time on these people. (but we do it for the lurkers, I know and agree)

  148. 648
    glodson

    @ Caine:

    Fuck.Yea. You’re right.

    Well, it just gives me more a reason to care. We likely can’t change the minds of people like that. But speaking out will make a difference, it can convince others. I know I’ve been effected by the arguments here. And by staking out a position, we can create a space where others feel they can add their voice.

  149. 649
    Inaji

    Glodson:

    Fuck.Yea. You’re right.

    There have been many discussions on how to get more women involved in atheist/skeptic/secular conferences over the years here. Right now, I can point to EllenBeth as a prime reason to stay the fuck away.

  150. 650
    Inaji

    Theophontes! Theo is front and center at Rattitude right now.

  151. 651
    Lofty

    I genuinely tried to read all of that thread but had to stop. Same old, same old excuses. I hope everyone here is OK. I left one little comment there but I doubt if it will make a dent in the emotional armour of the Defenders of Sexism.
    /out

  152. 652
    glodson

    After my little girl goes to bed, I’m getting fucking drunk.

    Seems to be the appropriate reaction to this mountain of bullshit. And more keep coming to reharsh old bullshit, or wank about irrelevant bullshit.

    I should not appear to be a rational and measured person, goddamnit! But in that thread, I appear as such relative to the insanity.

  153. 653
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I want to get drunk. Or go to sleep. Or both. But I have to finish an essay for my french class (not the uni kind, but a language course), and I’m wasting time here :/

    I’m also going to try to ignore evangelineclaire here, because I’ll just get (more) upset otherwise.

  154. 654
    Pteryxx

    You are in EllenBeth’s case. FFS, she’s proud of suppressing a harassment complaint at a conference. I just don’t have words.

    As a conference volunteer, this makes me sad beyond words.

  155. 655
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Yawn, another person asking “what do you think”. I think you should state, “this is what I believe, and this (LINK) is the evidence to back it up”. I discuss nothing when folks go about it the way you did. We don’t discuss things to amuse strangers at their order….

  156. 656
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    As a conference volunteer, this makes me sad beyond words.

    It flat out scares me. What’s the point of a harassment policy in that case?

  157. 657
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    #654
    Beatrice (looking for a happy thought)

    I want to get drunk. Or go to sleep. Or both

    I think I’ll need a drink to get to sleep. I’m nearly 24 hours without sleep. Again. I did this with the Stradenville rape thread too. For some reason my brain is trying to push past the freaking out involved with being triggered and instead is focusing so hard on the comment threads I just can’t let it go.

    I need to keep a bottle of alcohol in the house, there’s no way I’ll be able to make it the store and back right now.

  158. 658
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    “There is no harassment at our conferences. No one ever registered a complaint.”

  159. 659
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    #657
    Caine, Fleur du mal

    It flat out scares me. What’s the point of a harassment policy in that case?

    Legal protection for the organization. Plus it means they can waive it around to recruit women to their places without actually do a damn bit of good.

    Ellen was SO focused on that. “But they are doing good and their female attendence is up to 20% this year! It was a lot of work and this bitch just put out it there that is place is unsafe and driving women away. It’s all her fault for whistle blowing! WAHHHHHHHH!”

  160. 660
    mythbri

    So much burn out this week. I think I can attribute a lot of it to the exhausting Steubenville conversations, but who can really tell? There are millions of rape apologists in the world – billions, even – and I feel like I’ve tangled with them all this week.

    And I’m not even one of the most prolific commenters in this community who tackles these issues.

    PZ’s approach to allowing this shit to be aired so that it can be very publicly shredded is fine, as far as it goes.

    But what happens when we’re all too tired to do it?

  161. 661
    Pteryxx

    *headshake* note to self: harassment policies need to come with whistleblower protections. I composed a post for that thread about workplace harassment, which I never did manage to post. Now I grok why business-level harassment policies have clauses about retaliation.

  162. 662
    mythbri

    @Caine

    I love your ratties.

    Have you read The Underland Chronicles by Suzanne Collins? There’s a kick-ass rat character in that series.

  163. 663
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Personal email meaning that if it weren’t, it would not be here for you to read.

    My eyes are crossing a bit, that’s true, but I don’t think this makes sense.

  164. 664
    Inaji

    JAL:

    For some reason my brain is trying to push past the freaking out involved with being triggered and instead is focusing so hard on the comment threads I just can’t let it go.

    Yeah, same thing happened with me with Steubenville, Matt’s idiocy and now this. Christ, we can’t get a break here. As for alcohol, yeah, having some around isn’t a bad idea, I’ll probably need a shot to relax myself tonight, pancreas be damned. And if you find you can’t afford the “luxury” of alcohol, lemme know, I’ll spot you.

  165. 665
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    No. I’m simply trying to ask PZ Myers himself that question,

    Then e-mail him. Who gives a fuck about talking about something if you aren’t willing to voice an opinion. That was my point.

    That’s why I said the reason it is on here is because I believe his inbox is full.

    That is your explanation, but not your excuse for bad manners.

  166. 666
    mythbri

    @evangelineclaire

    I have rarely seen PZ post in either the Thunderdome or the Lounge. I don’t think he will see/reply to your question here.

  167. 667
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    One is asking people their thoughts on it.

    Actually, no. What you are saying is “discuss this to amuse me”. Otherwise, what is your OPINION?

  168. 668
    Inaji

    Mythbri:

    I love your ratties.

    ♥ :D

    Have you read The Underland Chronicles by Suzanne Collins? There’s a kick-ass rat character in that series.

    No, I haven’t! I will check that out right away. Yay for rat characters, especially kick-ass ones.

  169. 669
    chigau (違う)

    I don’t have an problem with sleeping.
    I have problems with waking up and getting up.
    If I didn’t need to pee and feed the cat, I wouldn’t.
    My contract is over, I’m back to bed.

  170. 670
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I’m simply trying to ask PZ Myers himself that question, and that’s why I blatantly put his name up there. That’s why I said the reason it is on here is because I believe his inbox is full.

    This is what I mean by “bad manners”. NOBODY MUST COMMENT ON ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU ASK/TELL THEM TO….

  171. 671
    Inaji

    I was not trying to make some statement on it. I can make a blog post if that was my purpose.

    Great. As you aren’t trying to make a statement of any sort, go away, will you? We’re already up to our collective neck in idiots.

  172. 672
    glodson

    mythbri

    But what happens when we’re all too tired to do it?

    I’ll just have to insult them even harder. I’m still newish to this, so I guess I better step up my game.

    evangelineclaire

    Nerd of Redhead, actually the query wasn’t to you.

    Yes, it was. You are posting in a public commenting thread. You are directing the query at everyone here, either posting or lurking. It is fair game for anyone.

    What I believe isn’t relevant.

    True, if what you believe isn’t backed by facts. It really is irrelevant. But it is relevant to know what exactly one is responding to.

    When people take polls or surveys, are they required to give their opinion?

    Well, there’s your problem. This ain’t a survey.

    It can be easier for someone to cooperate with you when they aren’t angry with you in the first place. I don’t know what his take (and what he thinks the takes of other majors… I did not mean commenters) on it would be so I have no idea if he agrees with my belief but I don’t plan to surprise him with yap about it after he gives his opinion or yell at him, (the reason you wanted me to put mine up was so that you’d have a chance to decide if you want to share your opinion, correct?), so it doesn’t matter.

    If you want to see if anyone, PZ or anyone else agrees, then just state your opinion and give us reasons. Let’s see if the opinion is informed or not. Let’s see if it is backed by evidence or feelings. Let’s see it. Don’t be coy.

  173. 673
    glodson

    Ah, fuck, let me try that again.

    mythbri

    But what happens when we’re all too tired to do it?

    I’ll just have to insult them even harder. I’m still newish to this, so I guess I better step up my game.

    evangelineclaire

    Nerd of Redhead, actually the query wasn’t to you.

    Yes, it was. You are posting in a public commenting thread. You are directing the query at everyone here, either posting or lurking. It is fair game for anyone.

    What I believe isn’t relevant.

    True, if what you believe isn’t backed by facts. It really is irrelevant. But it is relevant to know what exactly one is responding to.

    When people take polls or surveys, are they required to give their opinion?

    Well, there’s your problem. This ain’t a survey.

    It can be easier for someone to cooperate with you when they aren’t angry with you in the first place. I don’t know what his take (and what he thinks the takes of other majors… I did not mean commenters) on it would be so I have no idea if he agrees with my belief but I don’t plan to surprise him with yap about it after he gives his opinion or yell at him, (the reason you wanted me to put mine up was so that you’d have a chance to decide if you want to share your opinion, correct?), so it doesn’t matter.

    If you want to see if anyone, PZ or anyone else agrees, then just state your opinion and give us reasons. Let’s see if the opinion is informed or not. Let’s see if it is backed by evidence or feelings. Let’s see it. Don’t be coy.

  174. 674
    Inaji

    That’s why I said the reason it is on here is because I believe his inbox is full.

    Oh for…look, Cupcake, chances are excellent PZ isn’t going to pay the least bit of attention to you. He attends his e-mail assiduously. Screeding your shit here isn’t going to help.

  175. 675
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    evangelineclaire’s question stinks of “I want to know what you think because then I can use it against you before you put up a full post about it”.

    Or they are just a lazy thinker and want to follow what PZ’s answer is, but considering that they don’t even know anything about Pharyngula, I’m heavily leaning to the first option.

  176. 676
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m hanging out here for a while. Being told that those who are abused will most likely become offenders just hits too close to who I think I really am. And being called ‘something’ was just the shit icing on the foecal cake.

    But what happens when we’re all too tired to do it?

    Then Pharyngula evolves. As it has been evolving. Right now, Pharyngula is a Transitional Form between what it was and what it will be.

    It can be easier for someone to cooperate with you when they aren’t angry with you in the first place.

    Tone comments are bullshit. Concentrate on what is being conveyed, not how it is being conveyed.

    And I can perfectly understand Nerd’s frustration right now. He’s been over in the thick of some really scary threads — including a thread that put me into a full-blown panic attack, with vomiting, after reading about four comments. I dumped a response, tried to stay in, and couldn’t. So Nerd’s anger and frustration is understandable — complaining about tone was, is, and shall continue to be, bullshit.

    Inbox meaning personal email. Personal email meaning that if it weren’t, it would not be here for you to read.

    These are public and open threads, Everything I write here is readable by everyone (unless Chris bunnifies me (hasn’t happened yet, but I have hope)). If you want it to be private, then use email.

  177. 677
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    We need to make a drinking game for the bullshit that happens on feminism and rape threads.

  178. 678
    Portia

    Ogvorbis, I’m so sorry for that shit you’re putting up with. *hugs* if you want em.

    evangelineclaire:
    If you want everybody to leave you alone, you can leave. Alone. You’re just whining now, and no one cares.

  179. 679
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    including a thread that put me into a full-blown panic attack, with vomiting, after reading about four comments. I dumped a response, tried to stay in, and couldn’t.

    Oh, Og. I’m sorry, so sorry, so very sorry. I’ve done my fair share of that the last week, it ain’t fun.

  180. 680
    Inaji

    JAL:

    We need to make a drinking game for the bullshit that happens on feminism and rape threads.

    We’d all end up in a coma.

  181. 681
    chigau (違う)

    evangelineclaire
    If you want to communicate directly with PZ, send him an email.
    Use the link under his picture and BE SPECIFIC in the subject line in your email.

  182. 682
    glodson

    evangelineclaire

    Then make your fucking point. Don’t hide it. What are you trying to say? What’s your fucking point? What is the purpose of this query?

    It could be that you have something interesting and insightful. That’s good. Backed with evidence, it could be a good talk. Or it could just be stupid bullshit. One is something useful, the other is a waste of time.

    Many of us are getting the impression that you have a fucking agenda. Dispel that.

    That is, unless the other person is known to be snappy and is just waiting for me to give my view so they can be snappy.

    So far, you’ve said nothing and just tried to put a story out there with nothing else to see PZ’s opinion. No point made, no idea of why. Your comments in the Richards thread is not instilling me with the impression that you are arguing in good faith. So, what’s the point? What are you trying to get at?

  183. 683
    Inaji

    Ogvorbis:

    Being told that those who are abused will most likely become offenders just hits too close to who I think I really am.

    I really don’t want to say this, but yes, I know how that feels. Makes it extra-hard to stay the hell away from the dark places in your brain.

  184. 684
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Ogvorbis, I’m sorry

  185. 685
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Caine:

    JAL:

    We need to make a drinking game for the bullshit that happens on feminism and rape threads.

    We’d all end up in a coma.

    XD Lol!

  186. 686
    Portia

    Sending you support too, Caine, in whatever form you like. *scritches* for the rattie that is hopefully boggling on your shoulder.

  187. 687
    Inaji

    Glodson:

    So, what’s the point? What are you trying to get at?

    Personally, I don’t give a shit. We have a whiny asshole in the middle of our discussion.

  188. 688
    glodson

    You also seem to have read the wrong link, considering either of the two possible takes on it can’t be backed up with evidence. Morals cannot be backed up with links to evidence, statistics, or otherwise. No amount of scholarly articles in the world can “back this up.” Morals are derived from empathy.

    We can talk about the treatment of people. We can examine the morals, we can look at the logic. We can look at the laws. We can examine in through our culture.

    In short, we can provide evidence for support or rebuttal. Before I even start, even though you didn’t ask me specifically, I want to know if I should even bother.

  189. 689
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I will say again that I was told this was a place of inquiry

    Wrong, Skeptical Inquiry. Inquiry implies acceptance of bullshit. We don’t do that.

  190. 690
    glodson

    Yea, Caine, I don’t care.

    It just irks me as I hate when people throw crap out like this.

    But really, I got to go.

    Ogvorbis

    I’m sorry. You are a good person, a better person than I. I hope that stupid bullshit doesn’t stay with you too long. Wish I could offer more than my words of support.

  191. 691
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    691
    Caine, Fleur du mal

    22 March 2013 at 6:37 pm (UTC -5)

    Caine:

    Ogvorbis:

    Being told that those who are abused will most likely become offenders just hits too close to who I think I really am.

    I really don’t want to say this, but yes, I know how that feels. Makes it extra-hard to stay the hell away from the dark places in your brain.

    Ditto. And with raising my own daughter now that kind of thing completely breaks me in ways other triggers don’t.

  192. 692
    Inaji

    Thanks, Portia. The rats are all running around like track stars at the moment, in between braving encounters with the monster dogs to try and chew on their nails. :D

  193. 693
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Xanthë notes in the Adria thread that evangelineclaire of senseless comments is a sock of a sock of a sock of some name I find vaguely familiar (Eucliwood)

  194. 694
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I don’t understand why someone shouldn’t be willing to say something about something because I’m not willing to voice my opinion.

    Then it isn’t worth talking about if you can’t voice an opinion. Which is why you are sounding very defensive, like you are trying for an AHA moment. But your reluctance to show what you want to talk about sets everybody’s bullshit detectors off on red-alert. So, lets see you make a stand….

  195. 695
    Portia

    Well, it sounds like they’re making a nice little circus to be an entertaining distraction, at any rate :)

  196. 696
    Inaji

    Morals cannot be backed up with links to evidence, statistics, or otherwise.

    You’re full of shit, Cupcake. You aren’t terribly bright, either.

  197. 697
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    evangielineclaire (or or whoever the hell you are):

    How is that a tone comment? Whose tone am I referring to?

    The part of your comment I quoted in my comment when you told Nerd not to be so mean?

  198. 698
    Portia

    Buh-buh-buh-busted.

  199. 699
    John Morales

    Ogvorbis,

    Being told that those who are abused will most likely become offenders just hits too close to who I think I really am.

    I’m glad you wrote “I think” there, because it suggests that intellectually you know that’s not who you are, but only how you feel you are.

    (If anything, you’ve become a defender!)

  200. 700
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    Xanthë notes in the Adria thread that evangelineclaire of senseless comments is a sock of a sock of a sock of some name I find vaguely familiar (Eucliwood)

    Ohhhhh. That answers for a lot. A ‘pitter, sexist asshole to the core.

  201. 701
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    #704
    Portia

    Well, it sounds like they’re making a nice little circus to be an entertaining distraction, at any rate :)

    For a minute there I was mildly amused by the picture of sending the asshats in the other thread to a rat circus as performers.

    Then I realized you meant Caine’s actual ratties. XD

    In total unrelated other news: No need for alcohol, Little One’s at grandparents house for the night and I’m smoking. There are benefits living in the crappy areas I do.

  202. 702
    Portia

    I’m glad you wrote “I think” there, because it suggests that intellectually you know that’s not who you are, but only how you feel you are.

    Good catch.

    I second all of John’s recent comments, Oggie. You are wonderful, and we are here for you.

  203. 703
    Inaji

    evangelineclaire, you are violating the Identity rule here. Sockpuppetry and morphing are not allowed and are bannable offenses.

  204. 704
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I want a reply from PZ that makes me think.

    Who the fuck are you to demand that from anybody? Arrogant person, aren’t you?

  205. 705
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Ohhhhh. That answers for a lot. A ‘pitter, sexist asshole to the core.

    My shocked expression face is just going to be worn all out from today!

    *snort*

  206. 706
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m glad you wrote “I think” there, because it suggests that intellectually you know that’s not who you are, but only how you feel you are.

    Well, I’m still arguing with me about it. When I get depressed, It’s a lot easier to believe.

  207. 707
    Portia

    JAL:
    hehehe Their insistence on being nonsensical might have some use in a circus. :p

    evangelineclaire:
    How about you trying thinking something through yourself, hm?
    PZ is a tyrannical overlord, not a court jester to dance for your amusement. Get it straight.

  208. 708
    Inaji

    JAL:

    Ditto. And with raising my own daughter now that kind of thing completely breaks me in ways other triggers don’t.

    Yeah, I know. It gets really bad.

    John:

    I’m glad you wrote “I think” there, because it suggests that intellectually you know that’s not who you are, but only how you feel you are.

    I’m glad to see you being so supportive, John. This is a very bad and dangerous place for some of us to be, and it’s not at all easy to express to those who don’t understand it from experience.

  209. 709
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    ALERT: There is no secretive, sly, coy, devilish, etc implication of my views that I’m not being blatant with. None at all.

    *red alert, red alert, red alert*

  210. 710
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    me expressing offense at Nerd the Redhead practically lunging at me for nothing.

    Gee, you posted here. It wasn’t for nothing. You do have the ability to shut the fuck up and fade into the bandwidth at any time.

    I get very frustrated with idjits who can’t advance their arguments, or shut the fuck up. Which is you at the moment. So do one or the other.

  211. 711
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I know that people have asked him questions before and he’s answered them. I’ve seen him in interviews, etc. This isn’t about amusing, this is about wanting to know.

    Which is why you email him, and don’t make him mad by unnecessarily infesting a thread with your inane and irrelevant presence.

    Either start discussing or fade.

  212. 712
    Portia

    Don’t give me that shit.

    THE SOCK SAID A SWEAR. My poor fee-fees.

  213. 713
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    evangelineclaire:

    Have you commented here under any of these pseudonyms: Eu, Eunecromancer, Eucliwood Hellscythe, Evangeline Claire, Camomile Lox?

  214. 714
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    *Sigh* Nerd of Redhead, are you implying I’m a liar?

    No, I’m stating you are ignorant, ignorant, and not very intelligent. Otherwise, you would either advance your argument or shut the fuck up. Like a person of honesty and integrity would do. Only liars and bullshitters can’t put up, and won’t shut up. Your choice cricket. Choose wisely…

  215. 715
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    If I don’t go to sleep soon, my socks are going to start talking to me too.
    Although, I’m nowhere near JAL’s point of sleep deprivation.

  216. 716
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Advance my argument?

    Yes, state “this is what I believe, and this (link) is the evidence to back it up”. Everything else is evasion, which shows prima facie evidence you aren’t being honest.

  217. 717
    John Morales

    evangelineclaire, do you deny also being Eucliwood, as per #710?

  218. 718
    Cerberus is working overtime at the outrage factory

    Bob damnitt, the Richards thread has got me so triggered and terrified.

    I mean, it’s like a fucking nexus of shit I’ve been dealing with lately. I got raped in a convention panel, so there’s all the shit about how little support I would have been given if I had tried to talk about it to the con staff even though I was on really good terms with them (over a decade of volunteering with the con and casual aquaintanceship friendships with some of the behind-the-scenes people).

    But more the EllenBeth shit. Because of my job I know really well of bad faith people doing the whole “Oh, I so care about your concerns, but hey it turns out to all have been bullshit and coincidence, aren’t you so much relieved and not at all thinking of suing us?” dance. I don’t know if she’s doing that, but it’s close enough that I can’t help flashing to interactions with HR director and big boss as I’ve tried to navigate through all the discrimination stuff at work. And the way the conference and her employer folded like cowards and invented reasons to punish her because they got reflected blowback reminded me of all the “professionalism” excuses I’ve gotten from my employer on why they suddenly care about things they’ve never cared about before. And gah.

    And I’m terrified because my current plan for handling my abuse is to remember what has happened when and tell my story when the inevitable comes so that future trans* employees won’t have to deal with the bullshit I did. And knowing that the shit Adria has received will very likely be my direct reward for that is a little terrifying to face head-on, but just like it was for Adria, it’s still going to be the right thing. Just like it was the right thing to try and defend the students when they started attacking them to try and make me so miserable I’d be forced to quit (or get rid of myself in a more permanent solution).

    Just… not in a good head space at the moment. I’ll see if I can keep going though.

  219. 719
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    evangelineclaire:
    1- No one, certainly not PZ owes you a response, whether it is in email or a blog response. Don’t *expect* one.

    2- Do not expect, when you post to public blog, that only those you desire will answer you.

  220. 720
    Cerberus is working overtime at the outrage factory

    Oh, and not to be that person, but EB has yet to respond to my posts to her even though I tried to be extra civil in those and respectful of where she was coming from. Instead she prefers to engage with the ones that she can use to do a martyr dying on the altar of truth pose with.

  221. 721
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    because it bears repeating:

    evangelineclaire, do you deny also being Eucliwood, as per #710?

  222. 722
    Portia

    Oh, fuck, Cerberus, I’m really sorry.

  223. 723
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    evangelineclaire:
    work on your sarcasm.

  224. 724
    Portia

    evangelineclaire:
    Here are the steps you should take now:
    1. Answer the sockpuppetry/morphing allegations.
    2. Go sit in a corner and do some thinking. In real life, whenever anyone just asks me questions about a political or otherwise contentious topic, they have always always been in disagreement with me. You’re trying to pretend that humans don’t interact the way they normally do. Stahppet.

  225. 725
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Cerberus:

    Safe hugs. Be safe and take care of you.

  226. 726
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    Oh god, I can’t stop commenting there. I clearly need hard liqueur. I’ll see if someone will take my recycle cans for payment of running to the store for me.

  227. 727
    Portia

    Nope, I’m no chill girl, no.. whatever other female-based insults people have come up for women at the pit.

    alert! alert!

  228. 728
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    evangelineclaire:

    Have you commented here under any of these pseudonyms: Eu, Eunecromancer, Eucliwood Hellscythe, Evangeline Claire, or Camomile Lox?

  229. 729
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    JAL,

    I can’t stop commenting either, except that I’m away form Richards thread. It’s already 1:17 am :/

  230. 730
    Portia

    evangelineclaire:

    Have you commented here under any of these pseudonyms: Eu, Eunecromancer, Eucliwood Hellscythe, Evangeline Claire, or Camomile Lox?

  231. 731
    Inaji

    Jesus, I’m sorry, Cerberus. Sit over here with the rest of us considering drinking ourselves into a coma.

  232. 732
    Portia

    evangelineclaire:
    You sound pretty angry. Is that an acceptable way to talk to people now?

    /needlingbecauseimbored

  233. 733
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    #753
    evangelineclaire

    …am already in the process of complaining about being judged for it and treated solely for where I used to go

    Sounds like confirmation of a sockpuppet to me via slip of the tongue.

  234. 734
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I have had nothing to drink this evening. I am almost calmed down. Almost.

    evangelineclaire, play your mind games with someone else. I really can’t deal with your particular brand of bullshit right now. I asked a question which was ignored. I still haven’t seen an answer but your claim to have written one. Fine. Go with it. But I am not going to engage you any more. I don’t need mindfuck games right now.

  235. 735
    John Morales

    I see “evangelineclaire” does not deny being a sockpuppet.

  236. 736
    Cerberus is working overtime at the outrage factory

    Oh for fucks sake!

    evangelineclaire @652

    Okay, let’s see that fucking tweet. Oh hey, it’s the Daily Mail. That shitrag of right-wing propaganda whose relationship to the truth can best be summarized as “strained”. So, that’s a strike against it there.

    Also, regardless of anything else, googling the incident rather firmly demonstrates that the media reporting about it, at the very least is exceedingly transphobic and thus less than trustworthy. If someone is living and asking to be addressed by male pronouns despite being born into a female body, they are more likely than not a transman and therefore male. As such, Scott McNally deceived no one when he introduced himself as a boy and pursued a relationship with his girlfriend under that identity. He was a man and presented himself as such. That part is simply fact and the Daily Mail’s (and other news media’s) attempt to trumpet and discard that is sickening and part and parcel of a transphobic society that makes people like Scott terrified to disclose their transgender status to potential partners.

    Which leads us to the slippery part of the issue. Was failing to disclose his transgender status and the state of his genitals to his sexual partner before the act of sexual congress a manipulation of consent? That’s a much harder debate. On one hand, the person affected certainly felt that the state of his genitals mattered a great deal to her willingness to give consent and that can’t be overlooked or ignored and in fact I’d unfortunately have to lean on her side given that context. On the other, I can understand the intense pressure trans* individuals are under to not disclose the state of their genitals, largely because of fears of transphobic backlash, fears of partner violence, fears of accusations of mispresentation, or fears of being treated as the incorrect sex by those whose respect you want most.

    As a general rule, though it sucks, trans* people should probably disclose before sexual acts, even though it is hard and unfair and cis people are never asked if they ever had a hysterectomy before sex or things like that. And it’s precisely for these sorts of issues that we see here.

    So there, an answer. You happy?

  237. 737
    chigau (違う)

    evangelineclaire:
    Have you commented here under any of these pseudonyms: Eu, Eunecromancer, Eucliwood Hellscythe, Evangeline Claire, or Camomile Lox?

  238. 738
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    What is it with the people who log in using their facebook IDs? *sheesh*

    evangelineclaire, the relevant UK law:

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/2
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/76

    Next?

  239. 739
    Portia

    “Only” defensive jackwads “who” have clearly “been caught out” put “scarequotes” where they “don’t” belong.

    Jiminy christmas.

  240. 740
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    although I’m sure most of you would be drawing a blank with no real explanation or argument for calling me what you did.

    Just the evidence of your evasive posts. Prima facie evidence….

  241. 741
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Total Ad Hom.

    Not an ad hominem. You, like most trolls, don’t understand the real defintion. Otherwise, you would have shut the fuck up 20 posts ago….

  242. 742
    Portia

    There should be a name for “wrongfully accusing someone of making an argumentum ad hominem.

    Oh right. We just call you a dipshit for that.

    Saying you’re probably an asshole if you willingly hang out with assholes (and gave no indication that you left because you object to assholery) isn’t an ad hom at all. It’s inductive logic.

  243. 743
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Not here to troll

    We have prima facie evidence of that. You can’t put up, and you won’t shut up. Troll.

  244. 744
    Portia

    You guys started it anyway.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAH

  245. 745
    John Morales

    evangelineclaire:

    Sorry but it doesn’t work that way. Total Ad Hom.

    Bah.

    It’s transparently clear that you are indeed a sockpuppet, O evasive one.

    (A real person would have reacted entirely differently)

  246. 746
    Portia

    defamatory

    The list of shit you clearly don’t understand grows by the second.

  247. 747
    John Morales

    evangelineclaire:

    John Morales, “does not deny” and “sock puppet” are oxymorons, don’t you think?

    Such ignorance!

  248. 748
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    evangelineclaire,

    While it might give you extra brownie points in some quarters to get yourself banned from Pharyngula (to add to your bannings from the A+ forums, the Slymepit, and Jason Thibeault’s blog), you are being dishonest in several ways here:

    • you’ve asked a loaded question of PZ;
    • you’ve commented here before as eucliwood, and seem extremely reticent to answer that in the affirmative;
    • you’re continuing a discussion on this topic on Twitter with Zinnia, in which you have been a little bit more candid about your views than you have been here.

    Why the concealment? (That, along the obvious issues of massive personal entitlement and boundary violation seem to be common factors in why people won’t deal with you.)

  249. 749
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    but I’ll still talk here if people begin attacking me. You guys started it anyway.

    No, you started it with a post demanding PZ respond to you, and for us to “discuss” your idiocy at your demand. You started it. Thems the facts. Your take on it is your trollish OPINION, and that is *floosh* dismissed by reality.

  250. 750
    JAL: Snark, Sarcasm & Bitterness

    #773
    evangelineclaire

    Funny how I’ve given you a chance to confirm or justify your vicious labeling but I have yet to have a list of questions for me or at least views that would be considered sexist, no list of sexist views people believe I have or COULD have, etc, and also no retraction of the label… hmm.

    Because no one wants to wade through all the slyme to find your posts, dipshit. We kind of got our own things and threads going on right now if you haven’t noticed.

  251. 751
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    but I have yet to have a list of questions for me

    Who gives a shit what you think? Is that your problem? You’re not worth intelligent and busy folks looking at your fuckwittery? Trollish behavior.

  252. 752
    PZ Myers

    NEW THREAD.

Comments have been disabled.