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Jan 20 2013

[Thunderdome]

lakemonster

This is Thunderdome, the unmoderated open thread on Pharyngula. Say what you want, how you want.

Status: UNMODERATED; Previous thread

903 comments

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  1. 1
    Captaintripps

    I like turtles.

  2. 2
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Turtles?

  3. 3
    chigau (違う)

    PZ
    The link at the bottom of the old Thread is borked.

  4. 4
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I said “Like-minded”

    That’s what I meant. You don’t think like a mature person. More like an adolescent….

  5. 5
    Argle Bargle

    Janine #2

    You are cruel!

  6. 6
    schweinhundt

    Serious inquiry: “Libertarian!” seems to be almost as nefarious of a descriptor as “Creationist” around here. Why such disdain for those folks?

  7. 7
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    We’re doing it now, pay attention

    Ahhh true that, I did not refresh before commenting.

    I also consider making fun of someone’s intelligence (I worded that very badly before saying “insult someone’s intelligence”) to be very rude. Intelligence isn’t an accomplishment and shouldn’t be praised or made fun of <— my thoughts

    Is intelligence a static thing?

  8. 8
  9. 9
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Why such disdain for those folks?

    The economic theory is “I’ve got mine, fuck you”, which must be accepted like the babble. Swallowed and regurgitated without being able to show it does work with historical economics. And the morally bankrupt “liberties”, that allow for de facto racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry. Care to defend such bullshit with real evidence, and not slogans?

  10. 10
    chigau (違う)

    Does douglas1102 pass the IQ test?
    Can douglas1102 deduce how to click the “NEW THREAD” link?

  11. 11
    douglas1102

    @ Ogvorbis 770

    Yes there’s many forms of persuasion. I’m guessing you’re “anything goes” as far as attacking intelligence, and that seems to be the trend. Maybe I just shouldn’t give a damn about that.

    Really I think humor is very effective and that can also be a form of attacking intelligence and making someone feel stupid. But it’s hard to keep up all the time and hard with a bad audience which is very likely in these situations.

    I think humor coupled with other forms of persuasion is usually the most effective over-all. Tyson and Randi seem to have a more humorous approach than say Dawkins and I think that makes them more persuasive (in a lot of ways). Keeping your cool is also usually necessary for humor and losing your temper doesn’t usually help you think better although in certain circumstances it could still be persuasive.

    So I think the best over-all approach would be to try and be humorous, self-depreciating humor is prolly best. People aren’t usually open to people making them feel stupid and I think this is why a lot of atheists aren’t too great at converting Xians and such. However, bullies to seem to respond when you make them feel stupid so self-depreciating humor might not always be best for them.

    Thoughts?

  12. 12
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Don’t tell him.

  13. 13
    Hank_Says

    @6, schweinhundt:

    Serious inquiry: “Libertarian!” seems to be almost as nefarious of a descriptor as “Creationist” around here. Why such disdain for those folks?

    Short answer (because I have a feeling you’ll get a longer one from someone else): the general feeling, I think, is that both creationists and libertarians subscribe to a philosophy/ideology that’s (a) rooted in wishful thinking (b) based on a very dodgy work of fiction and (c) in stark contradiction to the available observable evidence. Both camps are also prone to reacting to the mildest criticism with accusations of conspiracy, censorship and stifling free speech.

    Bear in mind that’s a generalisation (before anyone leaps down my throat); most libertarians I know and have personally interacted with are much more accepting of reality and much moderate in their views than practically all the creationists that have ever crossed my path.

  14. 14
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Too late.

  15. 15
    douglas1102

    @ Rev 7

    “Is intelligence a static thing?”

    As far as I know most psychologists say “yes” but there isn’t a consensus (seems there never is regarding intelligence) but I’m not a Psychologist *gasp* so find out yerself.

  16. 16
    Hank_Says

    Janine, there’s never enough time in the ‘dome.

  17. 17
    Argle Bargle

    Serious inquiry: “Libertarian!” seems to be almost as nefarious of a descriptor as “Creationist” around here. Why such disdain for those folks?

    Because we give a damn about other people.

  18. 18
    douglas1102

    @ chigau

    You were worried about me weren’t ya?

  19. 19
    patterson

    Libertarianism is a utopianist ideology. Libertarianism will solve all the worlds problems but only if we reach a certain level of economic purity.

  20. 20
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Cruel To Be Kind

  21. 21
    chigau (違う)

    douglas1102
    No.

  22. 22
    douglas1102

    @ Chigau

    Ah ha, then you knew I would pass the “IQ test”

  23. 23
    chigau (違う)

    I’m having e-flashbacks to danielhaven and rajkumar…
    save me

  24. 24
  25. 25
    Argle Bargle

    douglas1102 #11

    Self-depreciating humor is the best way to deal with bullies except when it isn’t. Gotcha. Any other gobs of shit gems of wisdom you want to drop on us?

  26. 26
    sunny12

    The economic theory is “I’ve got mine, fuck you”, which must be accepted like the babble.

    As I understand it, this is essentially libertarianism in a nutshell:

    http://i.imgur.com/k5QmS.gif

  27. 27
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Prefab Sprout

  28. 28
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m guessing you’re “anything goes” as far as attacking intelligence, and that seems to be the trend.

    Did you even read what I wrote? No able-ist insults (or ablist, or ableist (however you want to phrase it)). If someone is acting and/or writing like an idiot, I will tell them so. Don’t use insults such as crazy, retarded, or the like. That is not anything goes.

    Try reading for comprehension.

  29. 29
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    far as I know most psychologists say “yes” but there isn’t a consensus (seems there never is regarding intelligence) but I’m not a Psychologist *gasp* so find out yerself.

    I was asking you, As in, what do you think.

  30. 30
  31. 31
    shripathikamath

    OK, I want to say something about Alan Turing.

    This came up when a wingnut complained about gays in protest against California’s SB 48 bill.

  32. 32
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    When I was cruel.

  33. 33
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Ah ha, then you knew I would pass the “IQ test”

    One doesn’t fail an IQ test. One merely gets a number on the ability to take IQ tests. But then, such common knowledge seems to be ignored by a segment of the population, like yourself, who thinks it can be failed.

  34. 34
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Cruel Inventions

  35. 35
    Inaji

    *cough*

    Dougie sez:

    I’m just trying to give Athyco my full attention because he seemed like he had a lot to discuss and it’s the polite thing to do.

    ‘Scuse me, Cupcake, but where do you get off assuming Athyco is a man? See, all us super-duper meanies here tend to be a little touchy about gender assumptions. If you don’t know whether or not someone is female or male, don’t run with the default sexist assumption of male.

    I’m sure all you top YT commenters are seriously above all that sort of thing in this wonderfully post sexist world we all enjoy, but hey, we’re primitive around here, so fucking watch yourself, fuckwit.

  36. 36
    Brian E

    I caught a Turtle in the Yarra last night. Cute long necked about the size of a small plate. He was nomming on the chicked I had in my yabby net. I let him go after taking a happy snap. Very cute.

  37. 37
    Brian E

    chicken, not chicked.

  38. 38
    Hank_Says

    I like turtles.

  39. 39
    Hank_Says

    I was also unaware that they Yarra was able to support life :D

  40. 40
    LykeX

    @Caine

    He has already been corrected on that point. I think he even apologized for it, but I’m scared to go back to that thread to check.

  41. 41
    douglas1102

    @ Rev 29

    Why on earth would you want to my opinion?

    Oh well, in my unqualified opinion I would say it’s static.

  42. 42
    Brian E

    Yarra has lots of life, at least from Heidelberg out. Has an introduced population of Murray Cod and the rare Macquarie Perch.

  43. 43
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Why on earth would you want to my opinion?

    Oh well, in my unqualified opinion I would say it’s static.

    Dougie is wrong again. Time to keep his mouth shut to avoid foot in mouth disease. Which an easy Google search turned up.

    Which is why your OPINION is to laugh at….

  44. 44
    Argle Bargle

    schweinhundt #6

    The website What’s Wrong With Libertarianism might give you an answer to your question.

    Despite the intelligence of many of its supporters, libertarianism is an instance of the simplest (and therefore silliest) type of politics: the single-villain ideology. Everything is blamed on the government. (One libertarian, for instance, reading my list of the evils of laissez-faire above, ignored everything but “gunboats”. It’s like Gary Larson’s cartoon of “What dogs understand”, with the dog’s name replaced with “government”.)

    The advantage of single-villain ideologies is obvious: in any given situation you never have to think hard to find out the culprit. The disadvantages, however, are worse: you can’t see your primary target clearly– hatred is a pair of dark glasses– and you can’t see the problems with anything else.

    It’s a habit of mind that renders libertarianism unfalsifiable, and thus irrelevant to the world. Everything gets blamed on one institution; and because we have no real-world example where that agency is absent, the claims can’t be tested.

  45. 45
  46. 46
    douglas1102

    @ Caine 35

    Yes that’s been pointed out to me, and I don’t decide anything when I refer to an anonymous person as “he” I suppose that might not be proper but that’s what I do. If you want to give me shit for it then that’s fine with me in fact I welcome it.

  47. 47
    douglas1102

    @ Nerd 33

    “One doesn’t fail an IQ test.”

    Unless the criteria for the test is find new thread=pass can’t find new thread=fail

    Do you understand now?

  48. 48
    Inaji

    LykeX:

    He has already been corrected on that point.

    Ah, thank you. I missed that. Given Dougie’s particular density, perhaps another tap will help the point to be firmly lodged in that skull.

  49. 49
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Why on earth would you want to my opinion?

    Oh well, in my unqualified opinion I would say it’s static.

    Geez I don’t know. Maybe because you are the one bringing up the topic of intelligence and how people commend or decry the level of it.

    I know, crazy thought huh.

    So anyway, I’m not talking about Charlie Gordon type of intelligence change, but you don’t think that leaning and practice and “exercising” your intelligence might enable some increase?

  50. 50
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Can anyone tell what my new avatar is?

  51. 51
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    some sort of tiger fish thing?

  52. 52
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Janine:

    Bambiraptor?

  53. 53
    Hank_Says

    I don’t decide anything when I refer to an anonymous person as “he”. I suppose that might not be proper but that’s what I do.

    It’s not that it’s “improper”, in some kind of rarefied Victorian drawing room sense. It’s that it’s presumptuous. People don’t like it when others presume their personal characteristics. It’s a minor infraction but very easily avoided – that is, if you care about putting others offside before you even get to know each other.

    If you want to give me shit for it then that’s fine with me in fact I welcome it.

    I’m always suspicious of anyone who welcomes “shit” for not doing something very easy and changing a minor behaviour that they nonetheless know is negative and annoys people. I’ve known people like that: their attitude to minor but repetitive behaviour that put people off or irritated the shit out of everyone was “This is how I am and fuck you if you don’t like it.” Of course, these people were people at my high school, so you can forgive the needlessly defiant adolescent bullshit to an extent. But hey, for all anyone here knows, you are yourself fourteen years old and going through a “fuck you” phase, in which case most here would be inclined to give you some latitude.

  54. 54
  55. 55
    Inaji

    Douglas:

    I don’t decide anything when I refer to an anonymous person as “he”. I suppose that might not be proper but that’s what I do.

    You do love taking refuge in the weakest excuses for an argument, don’t you? I did not say “hey, you consciously decided to assume Athyco was a man.”

    Now what you’re doing is excusing your lack of awareness by the old “hey, it’s what I do” garbage. That will not fly here, at all. If you are male, Douglas, you’re walking about with a whole lot of privilege. If you’re white, Douglas, you just got more privilege added to the heap. No – it’s not the sort of privilege you earn and you get it whether you wanted it or not, because that’s how our sexist society and culture works. The trick is to be aware of that privilege, and how it shapes your attitudes and thought processes.

    You went with the default he because you haven’t yet examined your privilege or your unconscious sexism. And before you scream in outrage, we are all sexist. Can’t help it, we’re swimming in it. Again, the trick is to be aware. By saying “hey, it’s what I do”, you’re saying you’re perfectly fine with being a sexist, it’s really not a big deal, and that you won’t work to change such assumptions in yourself.

    I really doubt this will get anywhere, but why don’t you try doing some reading (helpfully provided below) and try to stretch that…intellect of yours, eh?

    The Male Privilege Checklist

    Excellent explanation of privilege

  56. 56
    douglas1102

    @ Nerd 43

    You’re link does not make those claims, it’s more about “success and IQ” than “raising your IQ” and I don’t consider CBS news to be a reliable source.

    Anyone claiming to be able to raise your IQ should treated with extreme skepticism and the reasons should be obvious. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finding-the-next-einstein/201205/why-are-we-so-obsessed-improving-iq

    If there’s any peer reviewed literature claiming that IQ can be raised (fairly significantly and reliably) I’d very much like to see it.

    Raising your IQ is mostly wishful thinking and quacks looking to make money.

  57. 57
    evilisgood

    Oh well, in my unqualified opinion I would say it’s static.

    Hi, doug. You are mistaken. For much of the 20th century (and probably before that) this was the assumption, but as we’ve learned more about how the brain works, we can see that intelligence can be fluid, or dynamic. There are also many types of intelligence. For example, a person can do well on an IQ test, but has no inclination to re-evaluate preconceived ideas (critical thinking), or that person maybe is not especially empathetic (emotional intelligence). Gardner’s put forth his theory of multiple intelligences in the early 1980′s, and it has been getting quite a bit of traction since then. Basically, it’s not black and white. The field of intelligence study is wide open. Here is a cool website you might want to look at. The print is pretty small on my monitor but the information is good.

  58. 58
    evilisgood

    Gardner*, that is.

  59. 59
    evilisgood

    Sorry, douglas. My bad. Full of typos today :P

  60. 60
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    If there’s any peer reviewed literature claiming that IQ can be raised (fairly significantly and reliably) I’d very much like to see it.

    If you think psychology today is considered peer reviewed you are full of shit. POP psych bullhshit. Still not convincing me of anything other than you lie a bullshit to yourself, then to us. That requires you to prove yourself right….

  61. 61
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Do you understand now?

    No, but then your understanding of the basics is lacking, not mine. Really, try to keep up, you aren’t as smart as you pretend to be, and everybody know that from your first posts. Old history by now, except to you.

  62. 62
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Douglas:

    This is an anecdote and, as I am sure you are aware, anecdotes do not equal data, but my elementary school tested my IQ five times. The first time, I scored x. The second time, I scored x+5. The third time, I added another 10 points. The fourth time, I added 15 points. The last time, I added another 5. I didn’t get more intelligent, I got better at taking a test that measured a very, very, very narrow segment of intelligence. In five tests, I improved by 35 IQ points. I’m good at taking tests is all that it measured.

  63. 63
    douglas1102

    @ Caine 55

    I’m very open to bettering myself especially in a progressive way and I love the idea of someone picking on me about it. So thanks for that Caine. =)

    Yes, I’ve read your links before.

    Fyi, I am male and I am white and I am privileged but I grew up with a tiny single parent income and that meant often living in a tent heated by kerosene even in Canadian winter, no shower, little food and everything else that goes with that, so although I’m male privilege I’m hardly the best example.

    People assume a lot of things.

  64. 64
    douglas1102

    @ Ogorbis

    That could also mean a flaw with the person performing the test and many other factors, that your IQ changed is not the only thing. There’s prolly lists of things that can change it.

    I’ve never seen anything convincing that your IQ can be raised, perhaps by a little but certainly not reliably.

    Isn’t there a Psychologist on this blog somewhere that could give a better opinion?

  65. 65
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I’ve never seen anything convincing that your IQ can be raised, perhaps by a little but certainly not reliably.

    The problem is the test taker and not the test. Gotcha.

  66. 66
    Inaji

    IQ tests are bloody worthless, this has been shown time and time and time and time again. While neoplasticity is higher when younger, we certainly don’t lose the potential to grown and learn throughout our lifetimes and that includes learning to use your intelligence.

    Intellect is a lot like the saying about a different bodily organ – it isn’t the size that counts, it’s what you do with it.

  67. 67
    douglas1102

    @ Nerd

    “If you think psychology today is considered peer reviewed you are full of shit. POP psych bullhshit”

    Obviously it’s not peer reviewed and I mostly agree with that, but I’d still say it’s better than CBS

    I wouldn’t take anyone very seriously other than a Psychologist.

  68. 68
    The Mellow Monkey

    Douglas:

    Fyi, I am male and I am white and I am privileged but I grew up with a tiny single parent income and that meant often living in a tent heated by kerosene even in Canadian winter, no shower, little food and everything else that goes with that, so although I’m male privilege I’m hardly the best example.

    People assume a lot of things.

    Yes, they do assume a lot of things. For instance, when someone sees a white male, they assume all sorts of things about him and give him privileges as a result. Even if their assumptions about his background or capabilities or character is wrong. This is one of the ways that privilege works.

  69. 69
    douglas1102

    @ Caine 66

    I wouldn’t say they’re “worthless” but they hardly define your destiny. Practicing is the only way to get skilled. IQ is not a substitute, you could argue that it helps but it’s no substitute.

    Arthur Jensen is one of the biggest names in “IQ” (and certainly one of the most controversial) and I read that he never even took an IQ test, he simply didn’t care.

  70. 70
    douglas1102

    @ Janine 65

    “The problem is the test taker and not the test. Gotcha.”

    I never said that, but I would agree that could be the case, if you don’t care about the test and don’t take it very seriously then you’ll likely score lower.

  71. 71
    Inaji

    Fyi, I am male and I am white and I am privileged but I grew up with a tiny single parent income and that meant often living in a tent heated by kerosene even in Canadian winter, no shower, little food and everything else that goes with that, so although I’m male privilege I’m hardly the best example.

    Oh FFS, you fuckwit! That is not the privilege I’m talking about – why in the fuck did you not click on the links I provided and try to get some information into that ball of snot you call a brain?

    I am a female, bisexual, 55 years old, mixed race, who is childfree. I grew up with all sorts of material goodies, but I was also subjected to extreme abuse, from being tossed into institutions when I displeased my mother, to being raped from the ages of 3 to 9 on a regular basis. You want to know what the fuck any of that has to do with my privilege? NOTHING. And yes, I have privilege. We all have fucking privilege, some more than others. WHITE MALES ARE ON THE TOP OF THE PRIVILEGE HEAP.

    Instead of continually proving it’s a miracle you can breathe, why not impress our socks right off by following a link, reading, and showing that you can actually comprehend something?

  72. 72
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I wouldn’t take anyone very seriously other than a Psychologist.

    And I wouldn’t take any “authority” seriously. We’ve had a few idjits pretend IQ is meaningful and doesn’t change. But, I’m a skeptic. Trust known and trusted authority, but verify. Which leaves psychologists out.

  73. 73
    douglas1102

    @ Caine 71

    WHITE MALES ARE ON THE TOP OF THE PRIVILEGE HEAP.

    I don’t remember denying that and I’m pretty sure I didn’t so there’s no need to shout.

  74. 74
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    We’re doing it. Thang.

    I thang the Chemical Brothers for this particular education.

  75. 75
    douglas1102

    @ Nerd

    We’ve had a few idjits pretend IQ is meaningful and doesn’t change. But, I’m a skeptic. Trust known and trusted authority, but verify. Which leaves psychologists out.

    You really seem to have a problem with this.

  76. 76
    douglas1102

    @ Evilsgood

    “Basically, it’s not black and white.”

    I certainly agree with that, pretty sure most Psychologists would as well.

  77. 77
    douglas1102

    @ nerd 60

    I mostly posted the psychology today article to show these things should be taken very skeptically.

  78. 78
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I certainly agree with that, pretty sure most Psychologists would as well.

    Yet you disagree with me when I state that ” In five tests, I improved by 35 IQ points. I’m good at taking tests is all that it measured.” Are you deliberately misreading me?

  79. 79
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Blockquoting is your friend.

  80. 80
    douglas1102

    @ Rev 79

    I told you that if you had a problem with this then post the copypaste I tried to figure it out and failed =(

    Then someone posted it and it worked but I deleted it.

  81. 81
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Quit asking me to make clear what I am saying!

  82. 82
    douglas1102

    @ Ogvorbis 78

    Hey now…

    I never “disagreed” I gave few examples of other things that could explain that variance. That doesn’t mean I “disagree”, as a matter of fact I give your anecdote more clout than I would most. Kinda made me think actually.

    Besides, my opinion doesn’t mean anything in this matter.

  83. 83
    douglas1102

    Who is Janine Talking to? If it’s me, I dunno what she’s talking about.

  84. 84
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I mostly posted the psychology today article to show these things should be taken very skeptically.

    Whereas I take everything you say skeptically. You will never be an authority, and everything you say will be checked. If you had only forwarded your argument yesterday it might be different…

  85. 85
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    You really seem to have a problem with this.

    Cryptic nonsense by you. I don’t believe anything you say or link to. Simple.

  86. 86
    comradebob

    “White Privilege” is PC dog-whistle for group IQ differences.

  87. 87
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    is PC dog-whistle.

    Oxymoron here, as dog-whistles refer to bigotry.

  88. 88
    douglas1102

    @ Nerd

    And here I though you changed in the last five minutes, thanks for the reminder =)

  89. 89
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I never “disagreed” I gave few examples of other things that could explain that variance.

    You told me, without even asking if there was more than one tester, that it could be the person administering the test. You also stated that one’s IQ cannot change. The IQ is the number the fucking test gives you so yes, one’s IQ can change. In case you haven’t noticed, variance is change. I never claimed my actual intelligence changed, but my measured IQ did. Why do you deny what you write when we can ctrl-F and see what you actually wrote?

  90. 90
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Who is Janine Talking to? If it’s me, I dunno what she’s talking about.

    This is an open thread. We often have multiple different conversations happening here at the same time. It ain’t all about you, Dougie.

  91. 91
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    How to blockquote

    <blockquote>Quoted text in here</blockquote>

    Looks like this

    Quoted text in here

  92. 92
    comradebob

    ‘Dog whistle’ has zero to do with ‘bigotry’. Dog whistle refers to communications which are not meant for unintended audiences. It has to do with dog ears being able to perceive higher frequency sounds than human ears. Kind of like a secret code. In our world, everybody knows there are group IQ differences, we are just not supposed to speak openly about it. Therefore we associate ‘talent’ to the word ‘privilege’. It is a good way to keep your job and still communicate.

  93. 93
    evilisgood

    I certainly agree with that, pretty sure most Psychologists would as well.

    I should hope so, since there were a whole slew of psychologists cited in the link I posted. Gardner’s work is probably the most important in the field of intelligence study, but you can decide that for yourself.

    Besides, my opinion doesn’t mean anything in this matter.

    But it could mean something, if you took the time to learn more about the subject. I tried to get some of Gardner’s peer reviewed stuff but it’s all behind a wall. I can access most of it because I’m a student, but unfortunately I can’t transfer that access to you. However, Cracking Open the IQ Box is free to all. It’s a response to The Bell Curve, but if you scroll down to the section labeled “Psychology, Biology and Culture,” you’ll find information relevant to our discussion here.

    If you’re a student, douglas, I’d recommend “Beyond the IQ: Education and Human Development” from the Harvard Educational Review.

    Hopefully you are actually interested in this sort of thing and I haven’t wasted my time.

  94. 94
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    In our world, everybody knows there are group IQ differences, we are just not supposed to speak openly about it.

    What world are you talking about?

  95. 95
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    This is an open thread. We often have multiple different conversations happening here at the same time. It ain’t all about you, Dougie.

    In this case, it was about douglas1102. But you are right, it is not all about him.

  96. 96
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Just how the fuck can neolplum make a thread all about him?

  97. 97
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    very easily apparently

  98. 98
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    In our world, everybody knows there are group IQ differences, we are just not supposed to speak openly about it.

    What world are you talking about?

    Could it be that IQ tests were developed by well-educated white men from a specific cultural milieu and measure everyone to the standard of well-educated white men from that specific cultural milieu?

  99. 99
    Taylor

    @ComradeBob 86

    You have no idea what you’re talking about. White privilege is a completely different concept from group IQ differences, which have anyway been shown to be due to different educational opportunities and poverty, not genetic differences between races. We as a society treat people differently, regardless of their perceived intelligence, based on which group we jam them into. This is not a controversial idea, it’s the way things have always worked.

    You know, white supremacists have a slogan, “Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white.” It’s almost like they know they hold a privileged position in society, and believe that any attempt to level that playing field is an attack on their race.

  100. 100
    douglas1102

    @ Ogvorbis

    What am I disagreeing with? That IQ can change?

    I told you that I didn’t think so, but I also said your anecdote “made me think” and I’m aware lots of Psychologists agree, however they seem to be the minority. (are they?)

    I also said my opinion is practically irrelevant and that these things aren’t so black and white.

    Practically everything about IQ tests are disputed I doubt very many Psychologists would claim a lot of certainty.

    I don’t understand why you value my opinion in this matter, but anyway, I do assume your anecdote is genuine. And again it makes me think.

  101. 101
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    True but I have a feeling that comradebob is using IQ as 1:1 replacement for intelligence.

  102. 102
    douglas1102

    Wait, is there a race-realist in the thread? ’cause it sure sounds like it.

  103. 103
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I don’t understand why you value my opinion in this matter,

    You seem desperate to talk about something and since I am not allowed to write anything about the non-use of the word censor, and since you have blown off my attempt to engage you regarding bullying (and completely misread or misrepresented my response in your one reply), I figured, since this thread is only about you, that I would attempt to converse with you and see if there is anything there that merits consideration. Besides, you are a white male so of course your opinion matters.

    I do assume your anecdote is genuine.

    You assume I’m telling the truth? Thank you so very, very much.

  104. 104
    Taylor

    @ComradeBob 92

    In our world, everybody knows there are group IQ differences, we are just not supposed to speak openly about it.

    Yeah, except for the 30 years of psychology research showing that increased education and affluence in a society has an almost immediate effect on IQ scores. Almost like IQ isn’t testing inherent intelligence at all, but how well you do in school. Hmmmm.

  105. 105
    comradebob

    It is True that mathematics are associated with human evolution in the presence of agriculture, and Seasons. This is because metrics are not necessary with hunter-gathering populations. In contrast, mathematics and Geometry are critical to constructing structures, and planning crops. Humans skilled in these sciences had a clear evolutionary advantage in these environments, and were able to spread their genetic code.

    For a data-point regarding the value of these talents, consider Haitian building codes. They had an earth-quake there recently and, like, everything fell down. Haitians did not evolve in the presence of Seasons, or agriculture. This also explains group IQ differences when things like counting are involved in the testing methods.

  106. 106
    douglas1102

    @ Taylor 99

    I completely agree with your post except for…

    “It’s almost like they know they hold a privileged position in society”

    Remove the word “almost” and I agree 100%

  107. 107
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    ‘Dog whistle’ has zero to do with ‘bigotry’.

    Really? Do keep up.

  108. 108
    Hank_Says

    @96, Janine:

    Just how the fuck can neolplum make a thread all about him?

    Usually by rolling up and saying something fucking obtuse/tangential/scoldy and then feeling superior because he gets precisely the pointy reaction he expects for being fucking obtuse/tangential/scoldy.

    Hm, silly me – I suspect you knew that and actually meant “how” as is “how in the name of decency?” I can only speculate. Perhaps youtube is no longer giving him the attention he clearly thinks he and his powerful fucking insight deserves so he skulks around FtB waiting for posts with certain topics to appear, where he’s guaranteed a response to every one of his keen observations.

  109. 109
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Well, comradebob really is a bigoted asshole racist. #105 makes it official.

  110. 110
    comradebob

    ‘Racist’ is American State Religion dog whistle for ‘Heretic’.

  111. 111
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    For a data-point regarding the value of these talents, consider Haitian building codes. They had an earth-quake there recently and, like, everything fell down. Haitians did not evolve in the presence of Seasons, or agriculture. This also explains group IQ differences when things like counting are involved in the testing methods.

    This well beyond a dog whistle. This is a siren call.

  112. 112
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Yeah, I’m amazed. It turns out he’s an even bigger asshole than it looked like on the other threads where he turned up. He seems to be a little more coherent here, though; I could actually make out what he was trying to say when he started spewing his racist bullshit, but I’m still not sure what the hell he was on about when he was talking about batteries(? I think?).

  113. 113
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    ‘Racist’ is American State Religion dog whistle for ‘Heretic’.

    More oxymorons from a moron. Some of us cracked the code back in the ’60′s. We know what you are. You have nothing cogent to say.

  114. 114
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    For a data-point regarding the value of these talents, consider Haitian building codes. They had an earth-quake there recently and, like, everything fell down. Haitians did not evolve in the presence of Seasons, or agriculture. This also explains group IQ differences when things like counting are involved in the testing methods.

    That is a datapoint, but not for what you think it is.

  115. 115
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Annnd, while I was typing that, he swerved straight back to incoherence.

  116. 116
    evilisgood

    And suddenly, Gardner’s response to The Bell Curve becomes relevant to the discussion. *headdesk*

  117. 117
    omnicrom

    No comradebob, “Racist” is the English word meaning “Racist”. It means that you believe that some races are biologically inferior to others. A racist is someone like you comradebob, who said in posts 92 and 105 that certain races are biologically inferior in terms in intelligence.

  118. 118
    myeck waters

    Gosh, racists are SO. VERY. INTERESTING. *yawn*

  119. 119
    Inaji

    comradebob:

    For a data-point regarding the value of these talents, consider Haitian building codes.

    ‘Racist’ is American State Religion dog whistle for ‘Heretic’.

    Um, no. Sweetpea, you really shouldn’t be so obviously proud of being a fuckwitted receptacle for every known bigoted stereotype. We also already have our quota of blockheaded fuckwit bigots here, so you really need to find somewhere else to land. I suggest an outhouse.

  120. 120
    Taylor

    @comradebob 105

    For a data-point regarding the value of these talents, consider Haitian building codes… Haitians did not evolve in the presence of Seasons, or agriculture. This also explains group IQ differences when things like counting are involved in the testing methods.

    Man, I hate Poe’s law. It’s like as soon as I learned it existed, it made it impossible to believe that anyone could be so fucking stupid. And yet, I know that people like you really exist. It’s a cognitive dissonance that causes me no end of pain, specifically the pain of smacking my head into my desk.

    Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, the reason all those buildings fell down is that the overwhelmingly poor population of Haiti can’t build their homes according to earthquake-proof building standards? No, of course not, its because they’re too stupid to build them right. Makes sense.

  121. 121
    douglas1102

    @ Ogvorbis

    How can I not assume, do I need to say “certain”? Alright, I believe your anecdote and I’m quite certain it’s genuine. I really don’t doubt it at all. Skeptics don’t like saying “certain” and I’m sure you feel the same way, it’s nothing personal.

    I was really enjoying this exchange and I’d like to keep going.

    If you want to talk about the issues from before that perfectly fine with me, I just wasn’t interested before, but now I could very well enjoy it.

    I’m open to whatever you want to talk about.

  122. 122
    Hank_Says

    ‘Racist’ is American State Religion dog whistle for ‘Heretic’.

    No, “racist” is the Queen’s English for “halfwit lacking empathy and logic who thinks his unearned privilege is fully deserved and pre-ordained by God or by Nature and has Science and Reasons to prove it.”

    If you’re offended by the term “racist”, perhaps you might want to not be a fucking racist.

  123. 123
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    I’m open to whatever you want to talk about.

    Well, you can keep talking. I’m going to bed. I worked today and I work tomorrow. I am allowed to head off to bed, right?

  124. 124
    douglas1102

    @ Ogvorbis

    Look obviously I’ve offended you somehow and I’m sorry for that. I enjoyed this talk and hopefully it can continue another time

  125. 125
    douglas1102

    Why does Bob keep asserting “the IQ differences of races” as if that’s been established?

  126. 126
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    Wow, so I finally finish skimming to the end of the last ‘dome and not only is Doug still spouting his unintelligible “you guise r meen!” bullshit but now we have someone trying to take away StevoR’s “king of racist mountain” trophy? Fun times!

  127. 127
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    So I just read the entire last Thunderdome thread and I have no idea what douglas was going on about. I have 108 comments in this thread to read, so hopefully some kind of point will have been made. I agree with Beatrice…it was fun for a while, but damn. After a certain point I wanted him to make whatever point he came here to make.

  128. 128
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    Save yourself the trouble. Really.

  129. 129
    omnicrom

    I don’t think he had a point to make Tony.

  130. 130
    Inaji

    Tony, there is no point. Douglas is apparently so in love with the sight of his own pixels, he’s incapable of shutting the fuck up.

    By the way, Douglas, there’s this bit from the rules, and it definitely applies to you:

    No motormouths. Look at your own pattern of behavior. If you find yourself taking up 20% or more of a thread; if every other comment is from you; if you find yourself making 3, 4, 5 comments in a row…you’re a boring ass. Shut up for a while. Let other people speak. Stop babbling, step back, write a longer comment offline, and think about it before you post it. Motormouths are either dangerously obsessed or are practicing a form of online harassment, and I will shut them down.

  131. 131
    douglas1102

    @ Dysomniak

    I don’t think you’re mean, actually this blog is quite friendly.

  132. 132
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Douglas, you’re welcome.

  133. 133
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Why does Bob keep asserting “the IQ differences of races” as if that’s been established?

    You are naive. Think of the main reason anybody would say that. Some skeptic you are.

  134. 134
    Argle Bargle

    comradebob #105

    For a data-point regarding the value of these talents, consider Haitian building codes. They had an earth-quake there recently and, like, everything fell down.

    Magnitude 7.0 earthquakes have that effect on buildings.

    Haitians did not evolve in the presence of Seasons, or agriculture.

    So where did Haitians evolve? While the seasonal differences in Hispaniola are less than, say, Manitoba, they aren’t negligible. However about two-thirds of Haiti’s population are agricultural workers, which is a higher percentage than Manitobans engaged in agriculture.

    Just for curiousity’s sake, comradebob, are you related to douglas1102? You both have similar problems expressing yourselves intelligibly in written English.

  135. 135
    Nepenthe

    Haitians did not evolve in the presence of Seasons, or agriculture

    The nascent evolutionary biologist in me just started weeping and went off to pour herself a shot of vodka. I feel strangely empty now.

    The traveler in me wonders what comradebob would make of building codes in various poor countries with agriculture but–almost by coincidence–no strong government. The realist in me has thought about that proposition and has hopped up to join the biologist.

  136. 136
    Hank_Says

    Laying the poor state of Haitian infrastructure at the feet of the allegedly not-as-evolved Haitians ignores (almost deliberately) the decades of foreign (read: rich and white) intervention in that country, including support of the deadly Duvalier regime, the effects of which still haunt Haiti. Is it any wonder the buildings in Haiti fall the fuck down when the place was run for decades for the benefit of a corrupt regime and its overseas backers, and then essentially left to rot by those same overseas interests once the dictators left?

    Personal note: as a Red Cross worker during the earthquakes of a couple of years ago, it makes my blood fucking boil to hear some low-rent bigot with delusions of competence blame the sorry state of that nation on the alleged less-evolved nature of its inhabitants.

  137. 137
    comradebob

    Haitians evolved in sub-Saharan Africa, and were transported to Haiti on boats relatively recently. Although some people dispute it, I believe that the spark that created all humanity is sub-Saharan Africa. This is because it is a relatively simple and nutrient-rich environment from which life could descend from trees and develop intelligence. From there, my conclusion is that man multiplied and, through conflict, was pushed into different environments, and necessarily became specialized to those environments, or died off.

    Around 1789, Haiti was the richest colony in all of the West. Perhaps we can attribute modern Haitian building codes and their challenges with space travel to insufficient investments in education. We should consider Haiti’s educational neglect be a warning to us.

  138. 138
    Inaji

    Jim aka noelplum99 has been kissed by the banhammer.

  139. 139
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Perhaps we can attribute modern Haitian building codes and their challenges with space travel to insufficient investments in education. We should consider Haiti’s educational neglect be a warning to us.

    Jesus Christ but you’re dumb.

    And boring.

  140. 140
    Hank_Says

    I just … fuck.

    What a maroon.

  141. 141
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Jesus Christ but you’re dumb.

    And boring.

    Amen Rev. BDC
    He’s been exposed, and might as well go away. I’m sure most of us stopped listening except for entertainment purposes after the first “tell”.
    *points finger at bigot* Bwahahahahahahahaha

  142. 142
    Hank_Says

    *giggles behind hands*

  143. 143
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Around 1789, Haiti was the richest colony in all of the West.

    When the ungrateful slaves over threw their French master. And became a pariah state. And paying off high loans for decades. And something that the US feared, especially the slave owning states. (Second Amendment.)

    Perhaps we can attribute modern Haitian building codes and their challenges with space travel to insufficient investments in education. We should consider Haiti’s educational neglect be a warning to us.

    How many nations have space travel? Oh, you are trying to snark.

    Read what mandrellian wrote at #136. Not that any of that means shit to you.

    So, are you a white supremacist or a racial realist?

  144. 144
    Inaji

    their challenges with space travel

    How about you work on a personal challenge with space travel? First, build a rocket. Scratch that, you’d be too incompetent. Find a rocket, then pull your pants down…

    I’m sure you get the basic idea, you radical thinker, you.

  145. 145
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Noelplum has been banned from Pharyngula despite the fact that he “agrees” with most of what PZ says.

    Funny.

    What at FtB has he not been banned from?

  146. 146
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    There should be “blog” between “What” and “at”.

  147. 147
    Nepenthe

    Around 1789, Haiti was the richest colony in all of the West.

    Funny how it’s easy to be a rich colony when the vast majority of the population is considered property. Raises the GNP right up. Just think how much richer NYC would be if every person there were worth 100k in cash.

  148. 148
    Hank_Says

    At this point it’d be tempting for some to claim we’re reversing the burden of proof and playing a game of “prove you’re not a racist”. However, the fact that our interlocutor is advancing the notion of an inherent cognitive deficiency of a particular ethnic group more or less defines him as a racist, regardless of what other words, large or small, he’d use to describe himself. Since comradebob’s own words have already revealed him to, at the very least, hold particular racist views, for one of us to say “prove you’re not a racist” wouldn’t be that far from reasonable.

  149. 149
    douglas1102

    Racial realist? I prefer to apply the term “real racist”

  150. 150
    Inaji

    Douglas:

    I prefer to apply the term “real racist”

    What you prefer isn’t the fucking point. Gad, do you ever get out of it’s all about me mode?

    Janine was referring to specific descriptor racists give to themselves. FFS.

  151. 151
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    @131 I really can’t think of anything to but “heh.”

  152. 152
    Inaji

    Mandrellian:

    Since comradebob’s own words have already revealed him to, at the very least, hold particular racist views, for one of us to say “prove you’re not a racist” wouldn’t be that far from reasonable.

    Oh, it’s not unreasonable. You can go back to the 2nd page of the previous incarnation of Thunderdome to see our house bigot once again crying “I’m not a bigot, I’m not!” after spewing some more of his standard bigotry.

  153. 153
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    dammit: @131 I really can’t think of anything to say but “heh.”

  154. 154
    douglas1102

    @ Caine

    I know damn well what a race realist is and I call them real racists, and so should everyone else, most people that are active about that sort of thing already do.

    There’s no such thing as “race realism” outside of imagination and I’ll be damned if I’ll give them the satisfaction.

    What’s next? Gender realists? as in “I’m not sexist I’m a realist.”

    Fuck that… if you wanna feed their delusion go right ahead but that’s not a game I’ll play.

  155. 155
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Is Pharyngula big enough for two racists? Shall we have a dance off to see who stays…?
    Fuck that. They can both begone.

  156. 156
    Tethys

    I see douglas is still dense and boring.

  157. 157
    douglas1102

    @ Tony

    The world isn’t big enough for two racists.

    G’night folks =)

  158. 158
    Inaji

    Fuck that… if you wanna feed their delusion go right ahead but that’s not a game I’ll play.

    It’s not feeding their delusion, you fuckwit. It’s finding out how they describe themselves, which provides a foundation for making the correct arguments. As you can’t argue your way out of a wet paper bag, I’ll grant you don’t understand that.

    For chrissakes, you can’t even manage to blockquote, in spite of people repeatedly showing you how to do so. You suck at communication, so you really should stick to reading or run back to YT, which seems to be your level of competency.

  159. 159
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    There’s no such thing as “race realism” outside of imagination and I’ll be damned if I’ll give them the satisfaction.

    Simply because I was using one of their dog whistles does not mean I was giving them satisfaction. Most of us are familiar enough their code words that we can use it and call them on it.

    Also, in case you missed it, comradebob denied being a racist.

    Does not mean that he is not a racist.

  160. 160
    Inaji

    Tethys:

    I see douglas is still dense and boring.

    If he sticks around and keeps up with such vapid commentary, I don’t think he’ll deal well at all whenever SG and CR get back to posting.

  161. 161
    comradebob

    A better litmus test for this discussion would perhaps be ‘prove you are not a religious crazy person’ suffering from zealous group-think. The Catholic Church in the 1500s was very powerful, but brought down in the Enlightenment by the public study of celestial bodies. The dogma of today is much more fragile. I would suggest a TeeVee show that is on right now that is called ‘Hardcore Pawn’. We could perhaps live-blog our observations on human interaction as a part of this Thunder-dome discussion. I’ll start: The pawn-shop owners definitely have a higher verbal IQ than the customers. Also too a better understanding of the mathematical nature of interest payments.

  162. 162
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Comradebob really is not the most coherent person.

  163. 163
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Comradebob really is not the most coherent person.

    No, and now that we’ve been given what they consider to be fine viewing, they’re not exactly interested in anything which would challenge that pea brain they’re sporting.

  164. 164
    Hank_Says

    “Verbal IQ”.

    Define it. Then talk about who exactly you mean by “Hardcore Pawn customers” are and tell us why you think their “verbal IQ” might be lower.

    Then tell me why anyone should give a flying fuck about some “reality” TV show and its bearing on your clear and present racism, and why we should take it as representative of reality when we all know “reality” shows are manipulated and selectively edited beyond all recognition.

    Or, hey, maybe we should watch “Honey Boo Boo” or “Swamp People” and live-blog about their fucking “verbal IQ.”

  165. 165
    Inaji

    Mandrellian:

    Define it. Then talk about who exactly you mean by “Hardcore Pawn customers” are and tell us why you think their “verbal IQ” might be lower.

    Detroit. Black people.

  166. 166
    anteprepro

    I’ll start: The pawn-shop owners definitely have a higher verbal IQ than the customers.

    For those who can’t find the dogwhistle: Hardcore Pawn is a show about a giant pawn shop. In Detroit. It focuses on the infighting of the people who own the business, the crazy items they get a chance to purchase, and, of course, the ridiculous customers they have to deal with. In Detroit. Guess the race of a good chunk of their customers! Here’s a hint for those who don’t already know Detroit’s racial demographics: comradebob is racist. And thinks that comparing the owners of a fucking business to customers so outrageous that they merited being filmed is an apples to apples comparison sufficient to act as evidence of the relative merits of different races.

  167. 167
    douglas1102

    @ Janine

    I never said you were giving them satisfaction, and of course he denied being a racist that’s what real racists do.

    If you don’t wanna use the term that’s fine by me but I wish people would.

    Nice Foot Foot icon btw.

    @ Caine

    Actually I was only shown block-quotes once.

    And don’t kid yourself into thinking FTB has better discourse than YT =)

  168. 168
    Inaji

    anteprepro:

    Hardcore Pawn is a show about a giant pawn shop.

    More to the point, it’s a “reality” show, which has little bearing on reality at all. Gods know how much film they burn through to get adequate drama, at least the bits which aren’t manufactured.

  169. 169
    anteprepro

    CAINE!!! *shakes fist*

  170. 170
    Inaji

    anteprepro:

    CAINE!!! *shakes fist*

    Sorry!

  171. 171
    ChasCPeterson

    weird thread

  172. 172
    anteprepro

    Gods know how much film they burn through to get adequate drama, at least the bits which aren’t manufactured.

    Yep. I think of it like a compromise between fiction and non-fiction. Like fiction by a very banal and unimaginative writer. Or non-fiction by a Republican. Gotta meet somewhere in the middle, where facts and falsehoods can settle their differences, and just be brothers, ya know.

  173. 173
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    How does one measure a person’s verbal IQ? over the television.

  174. 174
    Nathaniel Frein

    Actually I was only shown block-quotes once.

    You are a liar. It was pointed out to you how to blockquote in the Trumped thread you tried to derail. You started to use it and gave up almost immediately. Blockquotes were then explained to you on at least one subsequent occasion in the Thunderdome discussions.

  175. 175
    Inaji

    Chas:

    weird thread

    You have a gift for understatement.

    :D

  176. 176
    anteprepro

    My responses are too slow. I need to find monkeys that can type faster.

  177. 177
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    sigh

  178. 178
    Hank_Says

    I still want to know if comradebob wants to watch “Swamp People” or NASCAR and give those people marks on their “verbal IQ” by comparing them to white people on another white people show. One like “Masterchef” or a Formula One telecast. They’re all the same “race”, so would there be other considerations that make one bunch sound educated and one bunch sound less so?

  179. 179
    Inaji

    Janine:

    How does one measure a person’s verbal IQ? over the television.

    Easy. Them black and brown people don’t talk good.

  180. 180
    anteprepro

    How does one measure a person’s verbal IQ? over the television.

    By whether they sound Articulate to you or not. Which is a totally objective, unbiased way of determining intelligence, I reassure you. Those people who don’t use the same diction and dialect as myself are pretty clearly intellectually inferior. Just ask any expert who agrees with me.

  181. 181
    Tethys

    weird thread

    Yes, between comradebobs racist train of thought, and douglas’s odd need for attention it has been odd.

    I am pleased that smarmy noelplum met the banhammer. It was long overdue IMO.

  182. 182
    comradebob

    As anyone with a basic grasp of probability recognizes, there are normal distributions within groups, and overall differences between groups. I’d define verbal IQ as the ability to accurately and articulately convert thoughts to voice, in a manner to benefit the individual speaking. A person voicing a phrase ‘nome sayin’ (translated: do you know what I am saying) as I have just witnessed would, in my opinion, have a lower verbal IQ than the typical air traffic controller, who is required in most cases to be clear, for the purposes of safety. I also believe that the female who was caught with the fake jewelry who believed that the tactic of pulling out her boob would change the outcome of the negotiation was pretty stupid.

  183. 183
    Inaji

    Douglas:

    Actually I was only shown block-quotes once.

    You’re a fucking liar. At least three people went out of their way to show you. I’ll even do it again, because when you blockquote, you can reply to many people in *one* post, rather than dominating the whole thread in motormouth style.

    <blockquote>PLACE TEXT HERE</blockquote>

    Cut & Paste this: <blockquote></blockquote> and put it into a handy text editor or other app, such as notepad if you can’t manage to type it and copy paste it into the text box here as many times required for a response.

    Jesus.

    If that proves too overwhelming and you use firefox, then get a fucking add on which will do the hard bits for you: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/text-formatting-toolbar/ – all you have to do is set it to HTML and click on the little icons for blockquote, italics, etc.

    Jesus. Again.

  184. 184
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    All the yammering and yet all that comes out is that comradebob loves his racist stereotypes.

    Your low verbal IQ is showing.

  185. 185
    ChasCPeterson

    Old enough to remember the O.J. Simpson trial? Johnnie Cochrane was said to be “articulate.” It made me crazy. He was glib, at best.
    George A. bartholomew was articulate.

  186. 186
    anteprepro

    Those fucking Canadians and Brits and Midwesterners and Southerners must have low verbal IQs, because they don’t properly pronounce their words compared to my fellow Perfectly Speaking Northeastern United States Citizens. Truly, everyone else that I don’t understand as well must simply be inferior to the people who I am, entirely coincidentally, most familiar with.

  187. 187
    Inaji

    Chas:

    Old enough to remember the O.J. Simpson trial? Johnnie Cochrane was said to be “articulate.” It made me crazy. He was glib, at best.

    That got on my nerves too. It still annoys me no end that anyone would describe him as articulate. I suppose, anymore, when most people can’t even manage a proper sentence, he appears articulate. After all, look at how much Bush Jr. mangled language and he was president.

  188. 188
    Tethys

    Well Janine, we all know that what is most important is bobs ability to feel superior to all those other “inferior” type people who didn’t evolve with seasons…

  189. 189
    Nathaniel Frein

    If that proves too overwhelming and you use firefox, then get a fucking add on which will do the hard bits for you: [snip]

    Oooh, do you know if there’s an app like that for Chrome?

  190. 190
    Hank_Says

    A person voicing a phrase ‘nome sayin’ (translated: do you know what I am saying) as I have just witnessed would, in my opinion, have a lower verbal IQ than the typical air traffic controller, who is required in most cases to be clear, for the purposes of safety.

    I hope you’ve considered that this difference in “verbal IQ” between your Detroit black person and your air-traffic controller could be a longstanding cultural influence on the speaking of English that affects pronunciation, inflection and vernacular amongst black residents of Detroit, in precisely the same way it does in the UK, where there are so many different accents and regional vernaculars that it’d make your fucking head spin, just as it does across the rest of the Anglophone world. Would you consider a native Scot or white Afrikaaner with a thick accent as having a lower “verbal IQ” than a white Oxford or Yale professor with immaculate pronunciation because you have trouble understanding them? Or is it just patois that you issues with?

    Say, would you say Stephen Hawking has a higher or lower “verbal IQ” than Neil deGrasse Tyson? One of those guys is much easier to understand than the other.

    This notion of “verbal IQ” in nonsensical anyway (understandably, as it appears to have been extracted from your colon) – it automatically and implicitly assumes higher or lower intelligence based on verbal communication skills based on nothing but your personal difficulty in comprehension. Accents and vernacular are a feature of English, not a bug – you should do yourself a favour and learn how languages develop and are used outside of your cosy little bubble.

  191. 191
    comradebob

    There is nothing superior about evolving with Seasons. Those who did not evolve with Seasons were subject to the pressures of a Natural Aristocracy of Man based upon speed and strength for tens of thousands of years more than Agricultural persons. This explains the demographics of NFL defensive linebackers and running backs, all of whom earn more money than me. Also Ray Lewis could probably, although not definitely, defeat me in a boxing match. The superior person is the one who can celebrate human bio-diversity, which is one of Americans biggest strengths, in the case of fielding a competitive football team.

  192. 192
    Inaji

    Nathaniel:

    Oooh, do you know if there’s an app like that for Chrome?

    I’m sorry, I don’t know. I have some vague memory of it coming up before though…if anyone would know, it would be SG, but he’s not around right now.

  193. 193
    Taylor

    You know, I have a semi-funny, quasi-relevant story about a racist that I’d like to share.

    My step-grandmother, after my grandfather died, met and began a serious relationship with a fellow named Dan (They got married, eventually. We no longer speak.) We first met him at a hotel/casino, where they were visiting for a weekend, and here are some of the lovely things he decided to do in front of his fiance’s grandchildren that he met five minutes ago:

    1. In response to a television news story about a NFL player who fell off a pickup truck and died: “Hey, one less nigger runnin’ around.”

    2. In response to my (white, Jewish) sister mentioning her Haitian date to the prom: “If you date a nigger, I swear I’ll beat the shit out of him.”

    3. In response to a black waiter walking past him, minding his own business: “Man, a lot of nigger waiters for an Indian casino.”

    All of this within an hour, and spoken to us as though he were talking about the air conditioning being too cold. My step-grandmother’s excuse was that as long as he kept it down around her black customers, it was his business. True, but completely beside the point. The truly ironic part came near the end of the night. He got lucky, and won 8000+ dollars on a high stakes slot machine. (He is by no means wealthy.) He left the casino about 10 minutes later, and we didn’t see him until the next morning.

    We have no idea where the hell he was, but when he came back, he called us out to the front of the building to look at his Hummer. Turns out, the minute he got some money, he went to some kind of all-night body shop (do those even exist?) and bought a new set of the largest, shiniest, most obnoxiously expensive looking rims in the history of chrome. He also defaced the back of the car with an enormous Ed Hardy-style rhinestone decal with the letters “Big Daddy” on it. The only thing I could think of, as a 17 year old, was that if a black guy had rolled up in the same car, he would’ve called him a money wasting nigger too.

    The lesson in all of this, if you’ll pardon my long-windedness, is that racists don’t really care about the stereotypes that they spew. White supremacists, like ComradeBob, view themselves as part of the “White Team,” and they always cheer against the “Black Team.” There is little use in explaining why their ideas are wrong, just as there is no use explaining to a sports fan why their team sucks. The narrative helps them justify it to an extent, but take all that away and they still have their violent anger towards people who don’t look like them, and that is more than enough.

  194. 194
    Inaji

    Mandrellian, going by comradebob’s ability when it comes to written communication, I’d say he has little to complain about when it comes to how other people sound when they talk.

  195. 195
    Hank_Says

    Mandrellian, going by comradebob’s ability when it comes to written communication, I’d say he has little to complain about when it comes to how other people sound when they talk.

    That had occurred to me – more than once. “Physician, heal thyself – perhaps by shutting the fuck up” and all that.

  196. 196
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    What is with camradebob’s random capitalization? Yet more low verbal IQ ramblings.

  197. 197
    Hank_Says

    Arse-biscuits. ^That bit in #194 was meant to be a blocky, not a slanty! Buggeration – I must have ‘roos in me top paddock or such-like.

  198. 198
    Jadehawk

    *peeks in*

    Natural Aristocracy of Man

    Oh, I see. It’s that kind of thread today.

  199. 199
    schweinhundt

    @ sunny 12: That link is brilliant. Thank you.

    Also, thanks to everyone else who provided their objections to libertarians. I suspected the rancor was because of economics but had not seen any specific posts about/with libertarians.

  200. 200
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    This explains the demographics of NFL defensive linebackers and running backs, all of whom earn more money than me.

    I wonder what racistbob would have been saying fifty years when football players did not make much more then the average person.

    And do the owners of NFL teams, who make more then the players, have a higher verbal IQ?

  201. 201
    Nathaniel Frein

    Is that a reference to Thomas Jefferson? Cuz that’s what google’s bringing up.

    And…I kind of feel the need to vomit.

  202. 202
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Have you noticed those Hmong speakers? TERRIBLE verbal IQs. I can’t understand them at all.

  203. 203
    Inaji

    Mandrellian:

    Arse-biscuits. ^That bit in #194 was meant to be a blocky, not a slanty! Buggeration – I must have ‘roos in me top paddock or such-like.

    Hey, no speakin’ furrin languages in here!

    ;D

  204. 204
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Here is the quote.

    There is a natural aristocracy among men. The grounds of this are virtue and talents.

    And slaves. We must not forget about the slaves. Virtue, talent and slaves.

  205. 205
    Hank_Says

    @202, Caine:

    I’m flappin’ me gums with Queen Bessie’s flamin’ English, ta very muchly.

  206. 206
    Taylor

    The superior person is the one who can celebrate human bio-diversity, which is one of Americans biggest strengths, in the case of fielding a competitive football team.

    It’s okay guys, Bob’s not a racist, he celebrates America’s bio-diversity! Not diversity, mind you, biodiversity, which means he likes the idea of having a couple different species of the genus Homo running around, one to do all the smart stuff, one to run the dry cleaning stores, one to run the gas station mini-marts. and one to play on all the football teams.

  207. 207
    Inaji

    Nathaniel:

    And…I kind of feel the need to vomit.

    Well, Jefferson was a slave owner and a man of his time. He certainly had some good and enlightened ideas on some subjects, but there’s no point in ignoring the bad ones.

  208. 208
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    But there is something just a little sickening about a slave owner talking a natural aristocracy.

  209. 209
    Amphiox

    Hmm. We’ve got a specimen here who’s actually mixing puerile bigotry with something that at least sort of resembles evolutionary psychology?

    Possibilities come to mind:

    1. This is a troll who has actually bothered to do a little research on Pharyngula’s favored hot-button topics.
    2. It’s a sophisticated Poe after all.
    3. It’s actually one of those anti-evolution natural fallacy creobots who actually thinks evolution means the end of all human decency who is going on a fishing-trap expedition to try to get some atheists quoted as agreeing with its bigotry because it thinks that’s what evolutionary theory actually really says.

    Either way, methinks the standard reaction is in order:

    FEED! FEED! FEED!

  210. 210
    Inaji

    Janine:

    But there is something just a little sickening about a slave owner talking a natural aristocracy.

    Yes, there is. At the time Jefferson was alive and in power, there were still warring ideals of what defined manhood. The ideal of the ‘Genteel Patriarch’ was still alive at the time, even though men were actively fighting against it, because it was seen to be the British ideal of manhood, so American manhood needed to be defined differently. Jefferson embraced the ‘Genteel Patriarch’ model of masculinity.

    Not that any of that makes it better.

  211. 211
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I think he is a racist with a superiority complex and grabs what claptrap he can to try to back it up. In a lot of ways, he is not too different in approach from annejones.

  212. 212
    Inaji

    Amphiox:

    Either way, methinks the standard reaction is in order:

    FEED! FEED! FEED!

    I’m more in the mood for Mock! Mock! Mock!

  213. 213
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Not surprising, Caine. Of all the American colonies, Virginia and the Carolinas were closest to Britain.

  214. 214
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    MOCK FEED! MOCK FEED! MOCK FEED!

  215. 215
    evilisgood

    “White Privilege” is PC dog-whistle for group IQ differences.

    “PC” is douchebag dog-whistle for “some serious douchebaggery is about to come out of my mouth.”

  216. 216
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Taylor @205:
    You realize that you’re the only one who can comprehend the greatness that is comradebob? That means from now on you have to translate his racist ramblings for the rest of us. I don’t know if you fully understand how much work you have ahead of you.

  217. 217
    omnicrom

    Comradebob it’s amazing how weak your trolling is.

    Come on! Step up your game! You should start with some tone trolling about how we’re like mean girls in high school so you can be casually sexist, then you need to bring up some Libertarian Talking points about how laws against discrimination actually hurt the free market which of course is always good and pure, and then you can fail to flounce a couple of times. You should also post faster and say stupider, more inane, more aggrandizing bullshit.

    Frankly I’m unimpressed with you so far.

  218. 218
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    The Thunderdome seems the best place for “Eighteen human heads found at O’Hare Airport.

    We wanted to fly united, but we lost our heads?

    Punchline: misdirected medical specimens.

  219. 219
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Those heads are old news.

  220. 220
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    This thread, of late, has been like reading “Waiting for Godot” while stoned…

  221. 221
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    And here, in the comments, are defenders of Rush Limbaugh declaring that “require each abortion to occur with a gun” doesn’t advocate violence against women, without ever saying what it does mean.

    Apparently, we all have wild imaginations.

  222. 222
    Markita Lynda—threadrupt

    They were news to me!

  223. 223
    Hank_Says

    @219, theophontes:

    This thread, of late, has been like reading “Waiting for Godot” while stoned…

    There’s another way to read Beckett?

  224. 224
    Inaji

    Mandrellian:

    There’s another way to read Beckett?

    *Snortle*

  225. 225
    Inaji

    Janine, have you heard from Patricia lately? She’s been gone a while now.

  226. 226
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I was just thinking it is time to send her an e-mail.

  227. 227
    Hank_Says

    Where’s our pet race troll? I was looking forward to more substantive responses. I was hoping that in addition to the hit arguments like I Don’t Understand Your Accent So You’re Stupid and I’m Not Racist Because Football Has Blacks In It, he’d come back with some more gems – maybe Black People Don’t Drive in NASCAR Because O’ Them Big Ol’ Hairdos or even If Africans Didn’t Want To Be Enslaved They Should Have Said So More Clearly Because Low Verbal IQ Obviously Made It Hard For Slavers To Understand Their Terrified Screams.

  228. 228
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ mandrellian

    There’s another way to read Beckett?

    1. Drunk on white wine, in the sun.

    2. Stronken.

    Neither of which, through bitter experience learned, I would recommend.

  229. 229
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    mandrellian @226:
    You own me a new laptop!

  230. 230
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    This thread got weirder overnight.

    I actually wouldn’t mind discussing IQ tests, but I despair over douglas ever getting the difference between intelligence and an arbitrary measure of intelligence.

  231. 231
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    I actually wouldn’t mind discussing IQ tests

    We can discuss them and just ignore Douglas’s “contributions”. I find them to be basically useless, as the variables are so great. Also, the historical use of IQ tests is an ugly one.

  232. 232
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I was only in touch with IQ tests while searching for a job. They are the favorite first test in many places. I guess that yeah, the discussion can pretty much start and end with “they’re basically useless”.

    They seem to be stacked against people prone to more abstract thinking.

    I will have to look up their historical use. I only vaguely know, mostly from here, that they were used as a tool of racist and class discrimination. Reading up will have to wait until I’m home, though.

  233. 233
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    they were used as a tool of racist and class discrimination.

    Yes, they were, and to great effect too. We’re still seeing the effects of such use and it’s still used to shore up the beliefs of bigots everywhere. Beliefs about intelligence have led to horrific actions, such as in the case of Carrie Buck.

  234. 234
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Beatrice

    There are two more important measures, IMHO:

    1. EQ: Emotional intelligence.
    2. GQ: Guanxi intelligence.

  235. 235
    Inaji

    Theophontes, I’d the Horde measures well on both of those.

  236. 236
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    Lower Saxony has voted its conservative Scottish PM out of office! It was a neck-and-neck race until the very end, at the end the Red Green coalition had a one seat majority

    Red Green state governments (and in one case, double-red) now will have a majority in the Bundesrat (upper chamber)

  237. 237
    Inaji

    There is a flaming doucheweasel in the thread about Natalie Reed.

    “Oh, so sad and all, but she didn’t write about atheism or skepticism and FTB will soon find another transgender writer, so it’s all good!”

    *spits*

  238. 238
  239. 239
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Are there any freshwater cephalopods? Question asked here :

    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/01/16/3670198.htm

    & also answered – neither one by me. Just saw this linked article. Also just saw on BBC world news this :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-21082617

    on an 8th century Gamma Ray burst our historical ancestors may have survived.

    Plus :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-21115351

    the trial of the rapists has begun in India.

  240. 240
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    What the fuck is it with douchenozzle scumbags vomiting excrement all over Natalie Reed’s FTB departure thread.

    Good riddance NoelPlum99 and Fuck off Steveencarr.

    Natalie Reed deserves much better than that and all the other shit sh’es had to endure from such (& even worse) assclams over the years.

  241. 241
    Dr.Cheeselove

    kieran,

    There is nothing more disheartening than reading the comments on those abortion in Ireland articles. It’s weird to think that so many women leave the country to have an abortion in the UK, and yet, because nobody talks about abortion, these people protesting against abortion don’t even know why a woman would have one. They have no clue. That’s what silence does. And why, in a secular country, would Enda Kenny be having official consultations with the church?

  242. 242
    Antiochus Epiphanes

    Re: this weird thread, skepticism, comradebob

    I have always thought that celebrating skepticism is a lot like celebrating literacy. These are fundamental: necessary, but not sufficient, goals if we hope to have a productive ermm…like, dialogue, I guess. But once I learned to read, I don’t need to be in a movement of readers. I’m not especially proud of being able to read, because it is so fundamental. I don’t have a bumper sticker that says “Literate”. Proclaiming one’s skepticism seems a lot like proclaiming one’s literacy.

    And then comradebob comes along, almost as an emissary* from the stupid to remind us of the need for skepticism.

    *I’m not saying that this is somehow a conspiracy perpetrated by skeptics to restore unity, but nothing short of public and ridiculous idiocy would serve in that capacity. In other words.

  243. 243
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    Is “high verbal IQ” one of those Western values I have heard so much about?
    /snark

  244. 244
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    comradebob:
    I think the logic centers of your brain are borked. You should get that checked out.

  245. 245
    kieran

    We’ve a long way to go before we are a secular nation. A secular constitution would be nice

  246. 246
    Snoof

    I’m not 100% comradebob is actually sapient. I’m going to assume it’s a bot using keywords to determine which prepackaged dribblings to post next, until proven otherwise.

  247. 247
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    kieran:
    Which of the many nations represented by the various commenters here are you speaking of?

  248. 248
    Inaji

    Tony, Ireland. Kieran’s previous post was about anti-abortion activism there.

  249. 249
    chigau (違う)

    I’m glad I didn’t read this thread last night.
    I was running a fever and probably would have thought I was hallucinating.

  250. 250
  251. 251
    Matt Penfold

    Thanks Beatrice! I was trying to forget all about Dougie-boy.

    Since I am feeling lazy, and really don’t fancy wading through his crap, did he ever actually say what his argument was ?

  252. 252
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Since I am feeling lazy, and really don’t fancy wading through his crap, did he ever actually say what his argument was ?

    He didn’t have one he could put forward. Actually, he seemed overly proud of something to do with meaningless video commentary. He was very disappointed at the yawns resulting from this disclosure.

  253. 253
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I was just reminding chigau of commenting yesterday.

    No, Matt. We were cheated. His only argument was that he didn’t actually mean censorship when he wrote about censorship. There was nothing else. The whole “and then we can move on” was a lie. There was nothing to move on to.

  254. 254
    Argle Bargle

    Since I am feeling lazy, and really don’t fancy wading through his crap, did he ever actually say what his argument was ?

    He has a three digit IQ…probably. He agrees that he’s incoherent or at least that’s what I think he said. Also he needs to be taught how to blockquote every ten minutes or else he forgets that people already taught him how to do it.

  255. 255
    kieran

    Yep Ireland, sorry should have made that more clear. Also a bit of a lurker on threads so may not reply quickly.

  256. 256
    la tricoteuse

    I may be a bit late to the party (tsk, and my first time attending, too!), but does comraderacist envision pawn shop exchanges with white clientele to go like this?:

    White Shop Owner With Excellent Verbal IQ: Why, good evening! How may I be of service to you on this fine day?
    White Customer With Equally (Very Naturally Come By) Well-Developed Verbal IQ: Hello, good sir! I wish to exchange this fine television set for several of Her Majesty’s finest British Pounds Sterling. Could you possibly see your way clear to accommodating me with a fair price?
    WSOWEVIQ: But of course, my good man! Would you be so kind as to place your television set, which I can see is a fine one indeed, upon the counter? There’s a good chap!

    etc…

    Because, really, all I’m getting from the mention of this reality show which apparently proves “how brown people don’t talk so good” (which, incidentally, is how I always interpreted the comments about Johnnie Cochran being so articulate, as more of a “my, isn’t he well-spoken (subtext: for a black man)?” bit of veneered bigotry, rather than a sincere appraisal of his apparent oratorial prowess) is comradebob’s failure to grok “isn’t it weird how colloquial speech works, and differs along so many lines, including class, race, location, social group, decade, and OH MY GOD EVEN SITUATION?” Or do all we Vastly Superior And Naturally Well-Educated White People ™ conduct all verbal interactions with the same level and style of formality?

  257. 257
    chigau (違う)

    Beatrice
    That was almost 18 hours ago.
    and I’m still hallucinating…

  258. 258
    richardh

    comradebob:

    a lower verbal IQ than the typical air traffic controller, who is required in most cases to be clear, for the purposes of safety

    (what, only “most” cases?) But they have a tiny vocabulary!

  259. 259
    Nathaniel Frein

    So…I spent a good ten years growing up in Japan. Most of it I spent in Northern Honshu near a little (but important) city named Misawa, while my father was stationed on the air base. My parents did not believe in base housing. They considered the people who lived in base housing to be the kind of people who wanted to hole up and pretend they weren’t actually overseas.

    I took two years of Japanese in high school. I then took two quarters of Japanese from the local UMUC on base, where we were actually learning Tokyo Standard dialect. Apparently my high school teacher had been teaching us the local dialect, which (from what I understood from my teacher) was akin to talking with a southern drawl in the U.S. She had fun breaking some of my bad habits.

    By this point I was good enough that, if someone spoke slowly and clearly, I could usually get the gist of what they were saying. It started to feel like shifting gears. I’d slip into a sort of “Japanese mode” and only after we were done speaking did I actually “translate” in my head what we had spoken about. I could even use the McDonald’s drive-throughs (I miss teriyaki mcburgers :<).

    And, since I've been out of country for about nine years now and I've done nothing to keep my skill up, I really can't do any of that any more.

    So, really…what does "verbal IQ" have to do with any of that? Did my "Verbal IQ" drop? If I drove for fifteen minutes into the mountains and tried to talk with the people there, their dialect would be so strong that I literally could not follow along. My friend had to translate for me.

    Now, they could easily communicate among each other, no problem. Do their "Verbal IQs" drop when they visit their friends in Tokyo? I'm sure that the poor people of Detroit have no problem communicating with each other. Are their "Verbal IQs" just fine and dandy until enter suburbia?

  260. 260
    Inaji

    Matt:

    Since I am feeling lazy, and really don’t fancy wading through his crap, did he ever actually say what his argument was ?

    1) We’re mean.

    2) Actually, we’re kinda friendly.

    3) He’s terribly smart, because yootube.

    4) He’s a sexist, but hey, it’s what he does.

    5) He’s a liar, claiming only one person explained blockquotes.

    6) He’s a white male, but privilege doesn’t apply to him because he grew up poor and stuff.

  261. 261
    douglas1102

    @ Caine 260

    Thanks for taking the time to post that info

  262. 262
    dogfightwithdogma

    @55

    Thank you Caine for the two links you provided. Both taught me a great deal. They helped me to recognize what till now had gone unrecognized.

  263. 263
    Inaji

    Douglas:

    Thanks for taking the time to post that info

    You’re most welcome. You may as well get used to the fact that around here, people pay attention, even if you don’t. Your words don’t disappear, they remain, so everyone can see. Try to remember that.

  264. 264
    Inaji

    dogfightwithdogma:

    Thank you Caine for the two links you provided. Both taught me a great deal. They helped me to recognize what till now had gone unrecognized.

    Wow. Thank you! You made my day. Nope, you made my month!

  265. 265
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Caine

    Theophontes, I’d the Horde measures well on both of those.

    I dunno, based on the ink, I’d say my GQ is pretty shit. Regarding IQ tests, they do measure something. Specifically, they appear to measure how much time and effort one has spent in school. I say this because places with public education see increases in measured IQ (As I understand it, the tests are regularly recalibrated to keep the average at 100; otherwise anyplace with decent public education starts breaking the scale pretty quickly) (From Better Angels of our Nature I think).Snoof

    I’m not 100% comradebob is actually sapient. I’m going to assume it’s a bot using keywords to determine which prepackaged dribblings to post next, until proven otherwise.

    If so, it’s a very poorly programmed one.

  266. 266
  267. 267
    Matt Penfold

    Thanks to all of you that replied.

    It seems I will never know what dougie was actually trying to say, but then I suspect he is still pretty clueless as well.

  268. 268
    athyco

    I guess douglas is trying to figure out how to get past acknowledging not one but two VERIFIABLE LIES that he’s told. After all, he’s the one that said he’d not move until VERIFIABLE LIES were acknowledged. The first that he was shown only once how to blockquote before his last protest about it. The second, that referring to unknown commenters as male is “that’s what I do” in my case, but doesn’t explain why he referred to Nerd of Redhead as “her.”

    *sweeping out Thunderdome*

    I’m finding myself anticipating things as far as mildew pit denizens are concerned nowadays. I detest the thought process. Justin Vacula raising money to go to WiS2, for example, was bad enough. I had read Surly Amy’s post about grants for this year at Skepchick a couple of days earlier: grants for women to attend American Atheists and for men to attend WiS2. I had the fleeting thought of “Ugh, what if one of the ‘pitters starts making jokes/insinuations about this?” Then, Vacula says that he’s applied for one of them.

    Damn, the man made a hateful video solely about Amy on the 4th of this month, and just a couple of days past two weeks later, he’s applying for one of her grants?!?

    *spits*

  269. 269
    Inaji

    Athyco:

    The second, that referring to unknown commenters as male is “that’s what I do” in my case, but doesn’t explain why he referred to Nerd of Redhead as “her.”

    His being a sexist coupled with very poor reading comprehension about covers it. Besides, Nerd wasn’t being “kind” to Douglas, so to him that would equal female, whereas you were acting like a human being, and as we all know, human being equals male.

  270. 270
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    Wait, I thought Nerd was the only chick here?

  271. 271
    douglas1102

    You guys are just plain weird O.o

  272. 272
    athyco

    Huh. Toward the end of the “Trumped!” thread, I told him bluntly how he’d come in like a horse’s ass even before he made the “censor” mistake. He could also have heard a Straw Vulcan that would also lead him to “male.”

  273. 273
    athyco

    What’s weird about getting irritated at VERIFIABLE LIES, douglas?

  274. 274
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    You guys are just plain weird O.o

    You’re just plain not with it. Not surprising, as you can’t forward an argument.

  275. 275
    Inaji

    You guys are just plain weird

    Why? Because we don’t like fucking liars, Douglas? You’re a liar. You could always own up to that, but I guess lying is just fine in your world.

  276. 276
    athyco

    Oh, and speaking of that “anticipating” I feel about the pitters and f00ters. I meant to tell you this earlier, douglas.

    In the last Thunderdome, you wrote:

    @ Athyco

    “And then…post on Pharyngula that we should go there and thumbs up the disgusting comment. AS YOU HAVE DONE. Piss a brick!”

    That’s a good point, I never thought of that. But I doubt anything will come of it and it sure as hell isn’t going to influence Ana in any way.

    So don’t vote it up, I’m still gonna make her aware. Very aware.

    The comment isn’t going to influence her at all, it’s the vids Tf00t makes that’s gonna do it.

    You’ve already done one thing to make Ana Kasparian do something you want that she would not: have to read an angry, shitty top comment that you provoked on her video. She’s not our enemy, and she’s not a bone to be fought over. She’s a woman with a brain and the right to make her own decisions. If you creep on her to “make her aware. Very Aware,” then I’m going to let her know that you instigated the whole thing to manipulate her.

  277. 277
    douglas1102

    @Athyco

    I’m going to let her know that you instigated the whole thing to manipulate her.

    Manipulate her O.o? (wtf???) I sincerely hope you do, I’m not even remotely hiding it. Isn’t it obvious you’d be helping me? Besides… they know damn well who I am from when they covered “Maple Spring” on TYT university. And that comment is directed at ME!!! not HER so what are you even thinking???

    If Young Turks wanna give air to Tf00T and TAA they can go fuck themselves.

    As for my first comments, I conceded your points and apologized so what are you trying to accomplish now? Would you like me to perform some kind of penance?

    Anyway, this is cutting into my game time and I really can’t see the point of this, so unless you wanna come play (seriously come play =) you’re not gonna hear from me for a while.

    This kind of response would really stroke the ego of a lot of people, but to me… it’s just plain weird.

  278. 278
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @270. dysomniak, darwinian socialist

    Wait, I thought Nerd was the only chick here?

    Nerd is a juvenile of some avian species – obviously genetically engineered to understand and interact in English and obviously one that takes a long time to mature as xe has been participating here for several years whereas the “chick” stage of avian lifeforms generally lasts mere months before they reach at least fledgling status? Hmm .. that strikes me as improbable.

  279. 279
    Inaji

    Athyco:

    If you creep on her to “make her aware. Very Aware,” then I’m going to let her know that you instigated the whole thing to manipulate her.

    Absolutely. If you need help or back up on that score, I’m right here. That sort of egotistical sexism is poisonous, and no woman should have to deal with that crap so Dougie can pat himself on the back.

  280. 280
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck!

    I am actually getting very upset dealing with squiller in the Natalie Reed thread.

    Sorry.

  281. 281
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    @StevoR Don’t fucking talk to me. Nothing your racist ass has to say will ever be cute or funny, so just save yourself the trouble. I still can’t figure out why you insist on posting here. Most people hate you more than I do. JUST GO AWAY.

  282. 282
    athyco

    As for my first comments, I conceded your points and apologized so what are you trying to accomplish now?

    Look at those past tense verbs. They mean you’d done the conceding/apologizing before comment 277. Well then, prove it. I state that you neither acknowledged your errors that I point out nor apologized. First, the apology to me on the last Thunderdome:

    I missed your comment where you mentioned your (sic) a woman, my apologies

    What a perfect example of how ridiculous your communication skills are! The above sentence (as you can see from my bold) apologizes for missing my comment, not for your identifying me, without reason, as a man. Nowhere did you ever mention your misgendering of Nerd of Redhead. Nowhere have you said that obviously you also sometimes make decisions to use feminine pronouns with “that’s what I do.” That’s evidence of you not being very observant even about yourself, douglas.

    You never apologized for saying in 167 on this thread that you’d only been given blockquote directions once. I direct your attention to comment 91 in this same thread where Nerd gave it to you again at 8:16 p.m. You commented nine times in the next two hours, then say again that you’d only been shown once at 10:48.

    You don’t give a fuck what I want, or you wouldn’t have lied about having “conceded” and “apologized.”

  283. 283
    Inaji

    I am actually getting very upset dealing with squiller in the Natalie Reed thread.

    I know. Don’t be sorry, Janine. Pond scum is more intelligent and attractive than that piece of shit. I sent an alert, that derail has gone on way too long.

    I killfiled the fuckwit. He can spill venom all he wants, but I’m not reading it anymore.

  284. 284
    athyco

    Caine:

    Absolutely. If you need help or back up on that score, I’m right here. That sort of egotistical sexism is poisonous, and no woman should have to deal with that crap so Dougie can pat himself on the back.

    No one I’d like better, Caine. *fistbump*

    He doesn’t have a second thought that the nasty comment is on Ana’s video; why, it’s to him! It’s like some middle school idiot saying, “Hey, I borrowed your science notes, and look–that guy drew a penis on them because I hit him with a spitball! Don’t you hate him?”

  285. 285
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    How do I make a tiny url for Tweeter?

  286. 286
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Tweeter? I know my spelling is bad but this is silly. Twitter.

  287. 287
    Inaji

    I missed your comment where you mentioned your (sic) a woman, my apologies

    I’m beginning to think fuckwit is much too kind a descriptor for you, Douglas.

    This is not about you missing a comment. It’s about your default sexism is assuming Athyco was male.

    Now I know you didn’t even bother to read the links I provided on privilege. You just up and decided it didn’t apply to you. Crispy Christ on toast points, you are revealing yourself to be a narcissistic assclam with either no ability to comprehend what someone else is saying, or you are one stupid jackass.

  288. 288
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Janine

    Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck!

    I am actually getting very upset dealing with squiller in the Natalie Reed thread.

    Understandable. He’s a complete doucheweasel.

  289. 289
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @281. dysomniak, darwinian socialist :

    @StevoR Don’t fucking talk to me. Nothing your racist ass has to say will ever be cute or funny, so just save yourself the trouble. I still can’t figure out why you insist on posting here. Most people hate you more than I do. JUST GO AWAY.

    1) I wasn’t necessarily talking to you – its an open thread remember with plenty of others here.

    2) That’s a fucking lie. I’m NOT racist. I don’t call and never have called for anyone to be persecuted or in any way treated unfairly based on the colour of their skin or because of anything outside of an individual’s own volition such as sexual orientation or gender. Personally, I don’t believe in the idea of “races” even existing scientifically at all. I once challenged y’all to give one example of me saying something specifically racist & no one could.

    Yes, I think terrorism should be fought strongly and, no, that’s not the same thing as racism at all.

    The correct thing for you to do would be to face the reality that you have lied and slandered me here, apologise for it – and cease doing it. That’s a fact . Now are you going to do the right thing here then?

    3) Most people here eh? You got the stats on that? Provide an internet poll on it maybe? (sarcasm.)

    4) Even if it was true don’t you think that the reason for that might be because certain people here keep lying about me and attributing tome positions and attitudes that I do NOT actually hold? You’ve created a strawperson in your own imagination and you are calling it me (well StevoR) but it is NOT me.

    5) No need to shout.. and as politely as I can put this. No. It’s not your blog, I’m not here for your comments but because I choose to be , because I generally enjoy reading and occassionally commenting here and, in case you haven’t noticed, I’ve lately been voluntarily grudgingly restricting myself to thunderdome even though its not something I’m either compelled or keen to do. So I’ve been meeting my haters and bullies here -and yes you are bullying other commenters specifically me – more than halfway. I reserve the right to comment elsewhere here still and will eventually do so anyhow. You don’t like me? That’s due to your own misjudgment and I wish you’d reconsider. You don’t want me to comment here – that’s not your choice but between me – and also PZ and Chris Clarke.

  290. 290
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    That’s

    4) Even if it was true don’t you think that the reason for that might be because certain people here keep lying about me and attributing to me positions and attitudes that I do NOT actually hold?

    Such as where you write in #126. dysomniak, darwinian socialist

    Wow, so I finally finish skimming to the end of the last ‘dome and not only is Doug still spouting his unintelligible “you guise r meen!” bullshit but now we have someone trying to take away StevoR’s “king of racist mountain” trophy? Fun times!

    If you knew me in RL you’d know I’m the least racist person around – an anti-racist activist in fact.

  291. 291
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @281. dysomniak, darwinian socialist :

    I still can’t figure out why you insist on posting here.

    Since you’re sort of asking – one good reason now is to prove you are wrong and get you to comprehend that I’m not the fucking monster some here have wrongly painted me as being due to their own prejudices and failures to read my actual words as opposed to other people’s lies about me.

    Another is because I’m stubborn and I am not going to driven away by bullies and abuse.

    Plus there’s the fact that I’ve often got stuff to say that I think y’all will find interesting such as some of the news items I’ve cited and poll updates and so on. Oh, and I think it helps for y’all to have the ocassional constructive dissenter* and differing perspectives on some issues too.

    * Although I agree with the consensus of commentary here most of the time on most issues anyhow – maybe 80:20 or so.

  292. 292
    John Morales

    StevoR:

    That’s a fucking lie. I’m NOT racist.

    Yet you’ve made many people here think you are based on what you’ve written.

    (Why do you think that might be?)

    If you knew me in RL you’d know I’m the least racist person around – an anti-racist activist in fact.

    Walter Mitty syndrome would account for it.

  293. 293
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    Hi Beatrice,

    *winks back*

    Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.

    One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.

    I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.

    He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me…

    If he is an anti-racist activist, he reminds me of that conservative speaker of state parliament, who at an event called upon everyone to combat racism, and used racist concepts in his own speech. That guy as a speaker of state parliament at least is marginally useful.

  294. 294
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Fucking squiller is still fingerpainting with shit at the thread about Natalie Reed.

  295. 295
    John Morales

    Obvious trolling is trolling and is obvious, Janine.

    It has a veneer of plausibility but there’s been plenty of slippage.

    (Chewtoy status has been acquired, for me)

  296. 296
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I don’t call and never have called for anyone to be persecuted or in any way treated unfairly based on the colour of their skin or because of anything outside of an individual’s own volition such as sexual orientation or gender. Personally, I don’t believe in the idea of “races” even existing scientifically at all. I once challenged y’all to give one example of me saying something specifically racist & no one could.

    No. You just called for the nuclear strike for Muslim states. Because their ideology does not jibe with Western culture, in fact, you fear that they with destroy Western culture. It just so happens that most of those peoples happen to not be pasty white.

    So sorry to confuse you with a racist.

    (Strange aside; I tend not to believe anyone who claims to be the least racist, sexist or homophobic people you could ever meet. Just a funny quirk I have.)

    Also, that bit you did about Nerd. Antifunny. That means that everything around it that is actually funny, becomes less funny. It destroys humor.

  297. 297
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I know, John. But for some reason, I am allowing this to upset me more than normal. I guess I really dislike it when a person rhetoric points to flourish uses the misery of what seems like a decent person to score points.

  298. 298
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @296. Janine: Hallucinating Liar :

    No. You just called for the nuclear strike for Muslim states.

    For pity’s sake, I’ve apologised for and clarified the comments made once when I getting carried away one night when I was drunk,emotional and overtired how many times now? I’ve lost count.

    NO I Do NOT advocate nuclear strikes on anyone.

    Okay?

    Because their ideology does not jibe with Western culture, in fact, you fear that they with destroy Western culture.

    No, because their ideology means they’re engaged in a violent terrorist jihad to wipe us and others off the planet I think they – specifically Islamists terrorists like AlQuadea, Hamas, Jemahh idslamiyya and the Taliban – need to be fought without pulling too many punches. Because tehy wish toand are trying to destroy the “Greater and lesser Satans” menaing youand me and everyone else intheWest who isn’t an Islamist.

    @292. John Morales :

    StevoR : “That’s a fucking lie. I’m NOT racist.”
    Yet you’ve made many people here think you are based on what you’ve written. (Why do you think that might be?)

    Well it isn’t what I’ve written but a few people’s misinterpretation of it (ie Reading comprehension fails) combined with repeated strawpeople and lies by others here wrongly

  299. 299
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    .. accusing me of being a monster that I’m not.

  300. 300
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    And a nuclear strike on Iran would help to reduce that ideology.

    No one needed to lie about you.

    And your attempt to wear a virtual hairshirt (Fallible Human Being) is simply pathetic.

  301. 301
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @293. pelamun, the Linguist of Doom
    22 January 2013 at 2:19 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
    Hi Beatrice,

    *winks back*

    Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.

    One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.

    I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.

    He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me…pelamun, the Linguist of Doom
    22 January 2013 at 2:19 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment
    Hi Beatrice,

    *winks back*

    Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.

    One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.

    I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.

    He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me… the Linguist of Doom :

    …Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.

    Wrong pelamun. Wrong so many times in so many ways. For instance I’ve been abusively and falsely called a racist right here and now and am addressing that and refuting it right here and now.

    One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.

    Its possible, of course, that I haven’t replied to everything shat out about me here by some liars like you because, hey, I don’t spend all day here and have stuff to do in Real Life. I don’t always see every comment on every thread.

    You think you’ve got a good example somewhere of one time or maybe more whatever where I haven’t answered some crap you dumped about me? Well, cite it here, link or repaste or however and I’ll answer it for you here. In time – I may of course be busy but I will try. Promise.

    I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.

    Seriously What the Fuck are you talking about there? “Ehrenarier” eh? I admit I haven’t caught up on all the of this or the last thread but I’ve never used that fucken word that I can remember. Seems you are confusing me with someone else which could explain a bit. Again, see my promise above. Cit it and I’ll refute it or maybe you can just admit you got that wrong and mistook me for someone else and save us all time?

    He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me…

    Calling people “racists” doesn’t make that true. You wrongly claim I’m racist, I know I not.

    I challenge you to show me one quote from me where I say people should be mistreated based on their skin colour – you can’t do it – you owe me an apology.

    Calling someone who isn’t a racist and trying to bully them off someone else’s blog is an despicable bullying douchecanoe thing to do, pelamun.

  302. 302
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Oh for fucks sake. The fuck happened there?

    Take II for clarity :

    @ 293. pelamun, the Linguist of Doom :

    …Of course StevoR is racist. And he always does this, he says something racist, when called out on it, he ignores it completely as though it didn’t happen, and continues talking about other things.

    Wrong pelamun. Wrong so many times in so many ways. For instance I’ve been abusively and falsely called a racist right here and now and am addressing that and refuting it right here and now.

    One time someone even confronted him with direct quotes of the racist shit he had said, but to no avail.

    Its possible, of course, that I haven’t replied to everything shat out about me here by some liars like you because, hey, I don’t spend all day here and have stuff to do in Real Life. I don’t always see every comment on every thread.

    You think you have a good example somewhere of one time or maybe more whatever where I haven’t answered some crap you dumped about me? Well, cite it here, link or repaste or however and I’ll answer it for you here. In time – I may of course be busy but I will try. Promise.

    I mean we’ve just seen it again. He was called out for spewing his Ehrenarier bullshit, and then? Nothing. Nada. He keeps talking about video games or what the flying fuck he was talking about at the same time.

    Seriously What the Fuck are you talking about there? “Ehrenarier” eh? I admit I haven’t caught up on all the of this or the last thread but I’ve never used that fucken word that I can remember. Seems you are confusing me with someone else which could explain a bit. Again, see my promise above. Cit it and I’ll refute it or maybe you can just admit you got that wrong and mistook me for someone else and save us all time?

    He is a racist who has no place on Pharyngula, but that’s just me…

    Calling people “racists” doesn’t make that true. You wrongly claim I’m racist, I know I not.

    Calling someone who isn’t a racist and trying to bully them off someone else’s blog is an despicable bullying douchecanoe thing to do, pelamun.

    I challenge you to show me one quote from me where I say people should be mistreated based on their skin colour – you can’t do it – you owe me an apology.

  303. 303
    John Morales

    StevoR, what harm has any Muslim ever done you or your family or your friends because of their religion?

  304. 304
    douglas1102

    @ Athyco

    As for my first comments, I conceded your points and apologized so what are you trying to accomplish now?

    Although I was sure I had and can even remember the wording I can’t find the comment so I guess I’ll have to take that back. I apologize for posting the quote on PZ’s thread, I wasn’t aware it was not allowed.

    As for Block-quotes I’ve been told three times as far as I can see, on PZ’s blog, by Rev, and by Caine (My “thank you” to Caine on this thread was for taking the time to do that and not for the comment preceding the thank you)

    You’re a fucking liar. At least three people went out of their way to show you

    I admit I missed Rev posting (he never directed the comment at me btw) so that would make me incorrect when I said “once” (not a liar) but that’s still not “three people” as Caine said that before she posted how to do the quotes. However if I missed one, I suppose I could have missed another. So show me these “three people” and I’ll concede to that as well.

    The above sentence (as you can see from my bold) apologizes for missing my comment, not for your identifying me, without reason, as a man.

    As you pointed out yourself I don’t always make that assumption, it was a simple mistake and I don’t care if you think it’s latent sexism. Nor do I care if you think I was apologizing for “missing your comment”.

    And as for the Young Turks, go right ahead. I don’t care. As a matter of fact I DARE YOU =)

    I could make many claims of my own but I really just don’t care, I post this simply in the spirit of honesty.

  305. 305
    John Morales

    douglas1102:

    I could make many claims of my own but I really just don’t care, I post this simply in the spirit of honesty.

    <snicker>

    You have made many claims of your own, so of course you could make many more — it’s your posting here that shows you care.

    (You really are dim, aren’t you?

    Either you imagine you really don’t care (heh) or you imagine we’ll buy your claim that you really don’t care.

    Both are pretty stupid)

  306. 306
    carlie

    Well it isn’t what I’ve written but a few people’s misinterpretation of it (ie Reading comprehension fails) combined with repeated strawpeople and lies by others here wrongly

    What is a misinterpretation of calling Japan “honorary Western” because they have “good values”?

  307. 307
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    not only is StevoR a racist, he is also intellectually dishonest.

    The points were made in the Thunderdome, by anteprepro I believe (the threadizens will correct me I’m sure), not on some unspecified thread.

    And his dishonesty shows again. Instead of addressing the points about his Ehrenarier shit, he just says he hasn’t had the time to read the actual posts that have been made on this thread.

    Really? You are a vile human being. Just fuck off, you racist scumbag.

  308. 308
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    SteveOR, liar, bullshitter, and paranoid Islamophobic bigot

    That’s a fucking lie. I’m NOT racist.

    Sorry, your words you post confirm you are a racist. The only way you can demonstrate you aren’t a racist is to shut the fuck up and stop posting here. Period, end of story. So, when are you going away racist pig?

  309. 309
    pentatomid

    For instance I’ve been abusively and falsely called a racist right here and now and am addressing that and refuting it right here and now.

    You haven’t refuted a single thing. You’ve just been denying shit, assclown. Refuting requires actual evidence in your favor. So far, I’ve only seen evidence that you, StevoR, are a collossal bigot.

    Calling people “racists” doesn’t make that true.

    Well, true… But calling yourself not-racist doesn’t make that true either, right?

    Well it isn’t what I’ve written but a few people’s misinterpretation of it (ie Reading comprehension fails) combined with repeated strawpeople and lies by others here wrongly

    Wrong, asshole. My view -and I’m guessing that of most people calling you a racist, islamophobic bigot right now-has been entirely informed by what YOU have been spouting. We’ve all had the opportunity to read the vile bigotry you consistently spout. You are a racist. You are an islamophobe. You are an asshole. Now go the fuck away.

    If you knew me in RL you’d know I’m the least racist person around – an anti-racist activist in fact.

    And all the racists have ‘lots of black friends’, and all the sexist anti-FtB people have been ‘reading pharyngula for years’. Yeah… Sure…
    Also IRL? Really? Here’s the fucking deal, mate, the internet is just as real as meatspace. It’s not a big fucking videogame.

  310. 310
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    clueless is as clueless does.

  311. 311
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    If you knew me in real life, you would know I’m actually really really smart and have like three different degrees (molecular biology, astrophysics and linguistics). I’m just not showing it here because you are all beneath me and I try to get down to your level to communicate, like, effectively.

    That’s why you should never go by anyone’s words online. They could say, like, stupid or racist stuff or something, but then be like the intelligentest people ever! And have black friends and all.

  312. 312
    Inaji

    Jesus Christ, looks like StevoR had a tantrum because he wasn’t the center of attention.

    :eyeroll:

  313. 313
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    If you knew me in real life, you would know I’m actually really really smart and have like three different degrees (molecular biology, astrophysics and linguistics).

    Yeah, in “real life” I’m a rocket surgeon. You betcha.

  314. 314
    chigau (違う)

    And I’m still the Queen of Sheba.

  315. 315
    ChasCPeterson

    Why can’t you people understnd this? StevoR cannot possibly be a racist, because it’s not about skin color to him. People with skin of different shades from his use his RL bathroom all the time. QED.

  316. 316
    athyco

    douglas @304

    And as for the Young Turks, go right ahead. I don’t care. As a matter of fact I DARE YOU =)

    The rest of your blather was a mishmash of “thinking” you’d apologized but hadn’t, pulling in things I didn’t reference in #282, and trying to weasel out of what you said. Aren’t we supposed to take you on your own words? You VERIFIABLY said “only once” about blockquoting, so what the fuck difference does it make if someone else counted wrong? You VERIFIABLY apply “her” to Nerd and “he” to me without reason and evidence. You’re then not capable of asking yourself what bias–since that’s all it could be–would make you do that.

    Let us be clear about the quote in this comment. I’ve told you what I intend to do if evidence arises that Ana Kasparian is being subjected to further creepiness stemming from the comment you think will “open eyes.” It’s my concern for her and does not require your permission, concern, or challenge. Your knowledge of it is all I require. Help you or hurt you will never factor into it.

    TL;DR: Get bent around a cactus, douglas.

  317. 317
    Inaji

    Chas:

    People with skin of different shades from his use his RL bathroom all the time.

    And we all know that whether or not POC are allowed to use your bathroom is the true test of whether or not you’re a bigot. Why, a judge said so!

  318. 318
    Nightjar

    This is absurd.

    “Hey, people from that country over there in the East, you have become, like, so civilized and stuff that you almost don’t look like an Eastern country! I’m so pleased with your accomplishment I will even let you join my club, the West! *pat pat* Aren’t you happy?

    … “What do you mean, I’m a condescending bigot? That was a compliment! What do you mean, Ehrenarier? I never said that!”

    *headdesk*

  319. 319
    Inaji

    Nightjar:

    *headdesk*

    Welcome to the world of StevoR, the Brave Bigot.

  320. 320
    indicus

    Concerning ableist slurs and the like… if refer to someone as a ‘faggot’ or a ‘schizoid’, that’s a specific epithet that hits a specific group. If you refer to them by such a broad term as ‘batshit crazy’, you aren’t referring specifically to any group or anything with the possible exception of Chiroptera feces. If you really can’t go through a world where people use such mean and soul-crushing terms then you have my pity. Please crawl back into bed, pop on a Disney movie, and enjoy your bubble-wrapped world.

  321. 321
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Why, yes, indicus; most of us here want to live in a Disney world.

    Go put on The Song Of The South.

  322. 322
    Inaji

    Indicus:

    If you really can’t go through a world where people use such mean and soul-crushing terms then you have my pity. Please crawl back into bed, pop on a Disney movie, and enjoy your bubble-wrapped world.

    Aaaaw, poor baby. Did someone try to raise your awareness? Tsk, how awful. You just take yourself off, you fuckwitted dingleberry, and have a nice wallow in smegmarmalade. I’m sure you’ll be feeling better in no time that you’re so superior you don’t have to be aware of lowly others and the fact that you don’t have the intelligence to figure out how to insult without splash damage.

    *There, there*

  323. 323
    la tricoteuse

    indicus @ 320:

    Concerning ableist slurs and the like… if refer to someone as a ‘faggot’ or a ‘schizoid’, that’s a specific epithet that hits a specific group. If you refer to them by such a broad term as ‘batshit crazy’, you aren’t referring specifically to any group or anything with the possible exception of Chiroptera feces.

    I wonder what group is being targeted by the word “crazy.” (Hint: The answer is in the word.)

  324. 324
    Emrysmyrddin

    If you really can’t go through a world where people use such mean and soul-crushing terms then you have my pity. Please crawl back into bed, pop on a Disney movie, and enjoy your bubble-wrapped world.

    I don’t get how doing your personal best to be a more agreeable, careful, tolerant and socially rounded person is so unacceptably verboten for some people.

  325. 325
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Concerning ableist slurs and the like… if refer to someone as a ‘faggot’ or a ‘schizoid’, that’s a specific epithet that hits a specific group. If you refer to them by such a broad term as ‘batshit crazy’, you aren’t referring specifically to any group or anything with the possible exception of Chiroptera feces. If you really can’t go through a world where people use such mean and soul-crushing terms then you have my pity. Please crawl back into bed, pop on a Disney movie, and enjoy your bubble-wrapped world.

    [Does not understand the issue]

  326. 326
    Inaji

    Rev. BDC:

    [Does not understand the issue]

    I imagine someone tried to make Indicus think.

    Oopsies.

  327. 327
    indicus

    @Janine, I was born in New York. You would mistake me for an Eskimo before you mistook me for a southerner.

    Think about it for half a second… if someone is willing to ignore centuries worth of scientific data and experimentation in biology, geology, physics, chemistry, and just about every other field of science out there and completely swallow the biggest fairy tales told to them simply because their invisible friend told them to, do really think they are completely balanced? If someone wants to spend their life picketing someone’s funeral and screaming why they deserved to die, does that REALLY strike you as mentally stable behavior? The absolute best we can say about they is that they are stupid beyond words. Uh oh, that unfairly targets individuals with a learning impairment, doesn’t it? And that is why 99% of internet threads concerning creationists refer to them as lunatics, batshit crazy, etc, etc. Hell, I even have a few in my family. I love them as family, but goddamn are they nuts!

    The difference is that I have a thick enough skin to be able to go through life and not find offense at every word uttered in my presence. Half the people I work with are black. They call me Yankee or cracker all the time and I respond back by calling them Johnny Reb. AND NONE OF US GIVE A SHIT!

  328. 328
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Here we go.

    If someone wants to spend their life picketing someone’s funeral and screaming why they deserved to die, does that REALLY strike you as mentally stable behavior?

    And here in that one little sentence you’ve enabled excusing abhorrent behavior for “mentally unstable” behavior and also done the reverse where “mentally unstable” behavior is abhorrent.

    Good job there.

  329. 329
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    The difference is that I have a thick enough skin to be able to go through life and not find offense at every word uttered in my presence. Half the people I work with are black. They call me Yankee or cracker all the time and I respond back by calling them Johnny Reb. AND NONE OF US GIVE A SHIT!

    And of course you’re little anecdote about your particular circle of friends can be extrapolated to the rest of humanity and their experiences.

  330. 330
    Amphiox

    For g*d’s sake indicus, in that other thread you MADE A JOKE ABOUT STRAITJACKETS. AND FORCIBLE RESTRAINT.

    Are you even aware of the history of institutional abuse that those references recall?

    THAT was what got the criticism for ableism, NOT anything regarding “batshit crazy”.

  331. 331
    Inaji

    I’m just going to drop this here:

    No splash damage. I have no problem with insults (except, not in the Lounge!), and encourage everyone to use vigorous and creative language. Except…I insist that you be precise and focused. Stilettos, not shotguns. There are classes of insults that rely on broad spectrum stereotypes to be insulting: racist, sexist, ableist, ageist slurs don’t just hit your target, they hit everyone in that group. So when you slam Joe Schmoe for being “old”, you’re also slamming me, and we old people get tetchy and cranky about that sort of thing.

    :wanders off whistling:

  332. 332
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    god damn it

    your not you’re

  333. 333
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    You missed the joke, indicus. You just accused us of wanting to live in a PC Disney wonderland. I pointed out a rather racist Disney release. And I am not even touching the anti-semitic shit.

  334. 334
    la tricoteuse

    indicus @327:

    Black people calling you yankee is not equivalent to a white person calling a black person a racist slur. Guess why?

    Your “thick skin” has a particular set of circumstances to thank. Guess what they are?

  335. 335
    Inaji

    Rev. BDC @ 328, ohhhh. Thank you. Seems Indicus went full court idiot with the No True Human fallacy.

  336. 336
    Inaji

    Janine:

    You missed the joke, indicus.

    I’m not the least bit surprised, either.

  337. 337
    Amphiox

    Here is the post from indicus that got the first the critiques:

    Can someone send in the nice guys with the white blazers that button up in the back?

    And the first reply:

    Don’t use mental illness as an insult. It’s assholy.

    And incidus’ first attempt at defending himself:

    First of all, its a common refrain just like calling a person you consider an idiot a ‘retard’. Second, its in the same vein as calling these people batshit crazy… doesn’t mean they are literally crazy, just plain ‘ol batshit.

    A joke about forcibly overpowering a resisting individual to put him in a straitjacket, a “common refrain”? And then trying the change the actual subject to “calling people batshit crazy” (which as I recall has been used several times in Pharyngula without anyone taking issue with). And now here he’s only focusing on the second and ignoring the first.

    This is telling.

  338. 338
    Amphiox

    And I will repeat again. No one actually criticized indicus for using the term “batshit crazy”. HE introduced it himself AFTER.

    The original criticism was for making a crash joke about forcibly restraining people (ie, assaulting them) with straitjackets.

  339. 339
    indicus

    @Janine, no I got the joke. For some strange reason people instinctively assume I’m a good ‘ol boy just like PZ is constantly accused of being Jewish. Force of habit reaction I guess…

    @Last time I checked, ‘cracker’ WAS a slur. The difference is that I can tell the difference between something said in jest and something meant as a slur. Its called a sense of humor. Try developing one.

    First point: The Westboro-style fundamentalists fly off the cliff from the normal, warm-hearted Pat Robertson-style batshittery. I would be seriously surprised if there isn’t some sort of unbalance at work there.

    Second point: Could a passing reference to straitjackets be insulting to some? Sure. Almost anything can. My larger point is SO THE FUCK WHAT? In the real world we all run into potentially offensive matter every day. There is a difference between making a comment intended to cause offense in someone who doesn’t deserve it and making a widely-said passing comment that isn’t directed at anyone in particular. Rather than look for offense in something and then bitch that the speaker should be more tolerant, why not shrug it off and go on with the rest of your life, assuming you have one?

  340. 340
    chigau (違う)

    indicus
    If you come to Canada don’t use the word “Eskimo” unless you are referring to the football team.

  341. 341
    The Mellow Monkey

    indicus:

    I was born in New York. You would mistake me for an Eskimo before you mistook me for a southerner.

    what the fuck

    I…just. No. What the fuck?

  342. 342
    pentatomid

    its a common refrain just like calling a person you consider an idiot a ‘retard’

    You realize, indicus, that we do not take kindly to the use of ‘retard’ as an insult either(even if it is, sadly, very common), right, asshat?

  343. 343
    Inaji

    MM:

    I was born in New York. You would mistake me for an Eskimo before you mistook me for a southerner.

    Oh fuck you, you doucheweasel bigot. No wonder you’re so fond of your fallacies and dog whistles.

    *spits*

  344. 344
    la tricoteuse

    indicus@339:

    @Last time I checked, ‘cracker’ WAS a slur. The difference is that I can tell the difference between something said in jest and something meant as a slur. Its called a sense of humor. Try developing one.

    Was this in response to my #334? If so, here it is again, since you didn’t really address it, with slight modification:

    Black people [friends or otherwise] calling you yankee cracker is not equivalent to a white person calling a black person a racist slur. Guess why?

  345. 345
    chigau (違う)

    Could a passing reference to straitjackets be insulting to some? Sure.

    Especially if you’ve ever been forcibly restrained, for your own good.
    Even more so if you weren’t actually ‘crazy’ at the time.

  346. 346
    Inaji

    its a common refrain just like calling a person you consider an idiot a ‘retard’

    We don’t use retard here either. That would be because people who are actually mentally retarded (yeesh, I don’t even like using it like that) cannot help that.

    Now, a person can choose to be an idiot or a fuckwit. Much like you, being a willful fuckwit and refusing to use your brain. Poor thing hasn’t gotten any exercise ever, has it?

  347. 347
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Could a passing reference to straitjackets be insulting to some? Sure. Almost anything can.

    You are using mental illness as a way to insult someone. You are implying that there is something so wrong with having a mental illness that the comparison is an effective insult. You are using something that a large segment of the population deal with daily as a way to hurt someone else. And you recognize that it can be insulting to a segment of the population yet you still choose to defend your right to use that insult — even though there are thousands of ways to insult people without using gendered, ableist, ageist, sexist, racist terms — because your right to insult me, and millions like me, is more important than creating an atmosphere of acceptance for those who are different. How delightfully egotistical of you.

  348. 348
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    Especially if you’ve ever been forcibly restrained, for your own good.
    Even more so if you weren’t actually ‘crazy’ at the time.

    Memorieeeeees. I’ll just bet Indicus thinks things like that don’t happen nowadays. Nope.

    Yeesh.

  349. 349
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Indicus, I was not calling you white. I was making fun your your claim of a PC Disney wonderland.

  350. 350
    Tethys

    Rather than look for offense in something and then bitch that the speaker should be more tolerant, why not shrug it off and go on with the rest of your life, assuming you have one?

    We don’t use sexist slurs like bitch here either, FYI.

    Nobody has to go looking for the offensive things you have said, they are quite visible.
    We aren’t saying you should be more tolerant, we are saying you need to quit being a shithead.

  351. 351
    Inaji

    Tethys:

    tolerant

    It’s not about tolerance. It’s about you attempting to turn that dirt clod in your skull into a functioning brain.

  352. 352
    Nightjar

    SO THE FUCK WHAT?

    So you’re being an asshole for not giving a crap if your words are going to hurt people who already don’t have it easy in their daily lives. So people will call you an asshole because of the huge lack of empathy you display.

    Indicus, this isn’t hard to understand. People with mental health problems who are reading/listening really don’t need to see their condition used by you to insult whoever you think deserves to be insulted. People who’ve been forcibly restrained really don’t need to potentially be triggered because you don’t give a damn.

    why not shrug it off and go on with the rest of your life, assuming you have one?

    You are a privileged fuckwit, no doubt. What if the “rest of your life” is more of the same fucking bullshit? Kind of makes it hard to “shrug it off and go on” after a while, doesn’t it?

    BTW…

    Its called a sense of humor. Try developing one.

    It’s called empathy. Try developing some.

  353. 353
    dogfightwithdogma

    The difference is that I have a thick enough skin to be able to go through life and not find offense at every word uttered in my presence.

    What a nice little bubble of a world you live in. Everyone is suppose to be just like you, are they? You heartless, thoughtless douchebag. Try taking into consideration the fact that some insults don’t just sting, they rip into the very center of a person’s identity and inflict devastating emotional and psychological pain. Now if you don’t care, so be it. But don’t expect your going to get any support for such douchebaggery around here.

  354. 354
    Inaji

    dogfightwithdogma:

    Try taking into consideration the fact that some insults don’t just sting, they rip into the very center of a person’s identity and inflict devastating emotional and psychological pain.

    You should write more.

  355. 355
    Nightjar
    Try taking into consideration the fact that some insults don’t just sting, they rip into the very center of a person’s identity and inflict devastating emotional and psychological pain.

    You should write more.

    Seconded.

  356. 356
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    Watching Django Unchained for the umpteenth time I just had to make this image macro: http://imgur.com/3axDNIC

    The quip has been in my head since I first saw it and I just had to get it out somehow. Apologies to Spike Lee.

  357. 357
    Rumtopf

    What’s that I hear? A group of people want to be decent human beings and won’t tolerate harmful derogatory slurs(they don’t impact me so what’s the harm hey) in their own corner of the internet? I WON’T LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS! D:<

    And of course, nothing says clueless asshole like the old “you’re just inventing stuff to be offended about so you should shut up and everything will be okay(for me)” line. It’s utter bullshit.

  358. 358
    Recreant

    Re: insults and thick skin

    I’m of the opinion that there are some things that are inherently offensive, regardless of whether or not a particular person hearing them takes offense.

  359. 359
    John Morales

    Recreant, that’s probably because the semantic slop inherent in natural language allows you to equivocate.

  360. 360
    Inaji

    Recreant:

    I’m of the opinion that there are some things that are inherently offensive, regardless of whether or not a particular person hearing them takes offense.

    It’s not about offensiveness. At all. It’s about two things: 1) privilege and bias awareness and 2) splash damage.

  361. 361
    Amphiox

    Could a passing reference to straitjackets be insulting to some? Sure. Almost anything can. My larger point is SO THE FUCK WHAT?

    When decent, humane people accidentally or unintentionally give offence, and are informed of that fact, they APOLOGIZE, the apology if sincere is accepted, the offence is recognized to be unintentional and the issue is over. Dead. Finished. Done.

    What decent, humane do NOT do is double down on REFUSING to recognize how and why what they did was offensive to the target.

    So the fuck what?

    The FUCK that is the what is that you, indicus, ARE A JERK.

    And apparently, a WILFULLY IGNORANT JERK.

  362. 362
    Amphiox

    The difference is that I have a thick enough skin to be able to go through life and not find offense at every word uttered in my presence.

    The difference is that not everyone has such thick skin, and not everyone CAN have such thick skin.

    And the biggest difference of all is that you apparently lack the basic human decency to accept and make allowances for that in others.

  363. 363
    Recreant

    Caine:

    It’s not about offensiveness. At all. It’s about two things: 1) privilege and bias awareness and 2) splash damage.

    Yes, that’s probably closer to what I meant. I was trying to explain to a colleauge yesterday why they shouldn’t use certain terms and he couldn’t understand why since I wasn’t “offended” by them.

    Thanks for that summary. Now I just have to figure out how to explain those concepts to him.

  364. 364
    la tricoteuse

    Amphiox @362:

    The difference is that not everyone has such thick skin, and not everyone CAN have such thick skin.

    I tried to hint at that with my 334 thusly:

    Your “thick skin” has a particular set of circumstances to thank. Guess what they are?

    but I don’t think indicus is listening.

  365. 365
    Inaji

    I’d say I have a thick skin. I’ve been called about every name in the book, had all manner of nasty things said to or about me, been through 9 kinds of abuse, yada, yada, yada. All that said, it has absolutely nothing to do with my willingness or lack thereof to cause hurt to others, due to privilege and biases I carry about in my head.

    It takes awareness and empathy to be a decent human being. I’d rather be a decent human being than have a thick skin or the temerity and blindness to write other human beings off with “grow a thicker skin!” That sort of shit is no different from the whole “grow a pair!” garbage. It’s time to throw it out.

  366. 366
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    @comraderacistasshole:

    I shouldn’t even be giving you the time of the day, but in the book American Apartheid, pages 162-165, the author explains the cultural and sociological separation that creates what you refer to as “poor Verbal IQ” (whatever the fuck that means.)

    Paraphrased it’s primarily due to racist fucks like yourself creating a history of oppression and maintaining the underclass, who call African-American Vernacular English (called Black English Vernacular in the book) inferior or indicative of poor verbal skills, and who provide no capability for school children born and raised in the ghetto to better learn without being told their handle of English is ‘wrong.’

    So fuck off you racist asshole.

  367. 367
    Inaji

    Recreant:

    Thanks for that summary. Now I just have to figure out how to explain those concepts to him.

    Well, you could try starting with the concept of privilge. These two sites are very helpful:

    The Male Privilege Checklist

    Excellent explanation of privilege

    Once the concept of privilege is understood, it acts as a gateway to further understanding. You might also find it helpful to read this Richard Carrier post, along with all the links in it: The Art of the Insult & The Sin of the Slur

  368. 368
    Recreant

    Caine: Thanks again for the info. I tend to inherently grasp concepts, so when it comes to explaining it to others, especially face to face, I often fall short. Hopefully these links will help. I really appreciate it.

  369. 369
    Inaji

    Recreant, no problem. You could always print out the ones on privilege and give them to him to read. :D

  370. 370
    Recreant

    Caine,

    That’s my plan, but I have a feeling I’ll still need to do some explaining. When I told him he was acting like a bigot, he said it wasn’t true because he only has one wife. True story.

  371. 371
    Inaji

    Recreant:

    When I told him he was acting like a bigot, he said it wasn’t true because he only has one wife.

    Whether that was humor or stupidity, all I can say is uh oh.

  372. 372
    Recreant

    Sadly, it wasn’t humor. He actually sat next to me and googled the definition of bigot after i told him that wasn’t what it meant.

  373. 373
    Inaji

    :headdesk: You have your work cut out for you. My sympathies.

  374. 374
    Eurasian magpie

    Comradebob has left then? Aww, pout!

    This is the least obnoxious part of all the various obnoxieties in hir drivel but what the hell was the deal with random capitalization? “Natural Aristocracy of Man” and “Seasons”? Srsly? Also, does xe not realize that agriculture has been practiced in sub-Saharan Africa for thousands of years. Does xe think all negroes were hunter-gatherers until enlightened by the white man’s way?

  375. 375
    Inaji

    “comradebob” was last seen in the Creationism & Racism thread and the MLK thread.

  376. 376
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    Does xe think all negroes were hunter-gatherers until enlightened by the white man’s way?

    And mesoamericans as well I would imagine.

  377. 377
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    First point: The Westboro-style fundamentalists fly off the cliff from the normal, warm-hearted Pat Robertson-style batshittery. I would be seriously surprised if there isn’t some sort of unbalance at work there.

    First: Good for you and your armchair diagnosis. I’m sure that everyone will be pleased to know that now when someone acts in a shitty disturbing way we can excuse it on their “unbalance” and not worry that they might actually be shitty fucking people.

    Second point: Could a passing reference to straitjackets be insulting to some? Sure. Almost anything can. My larger point is SO THE FUCK WHAT? In the real world we all run into potentially offensive matter every day. There is a difference between making a comment intended to cause offense in someone who doesn’t deserve it and making a widely-said passing comment that isn’t directed at anyone in particular. Rather than look for offense in something and then bitch that the speaker should be more tolerant, why not shrug it off and go on with the rest of your life, assuming you have one?

    Second: Good for you for being willing to shrug off the burden of worrying about what effects your actions intentional or not have on others, especially the less fortunate, more vulnerable and least protected members of our society. That must make you a very popular guy are your tough act club house. And bonus points for not not giving into the information giving to you concerning the actual harm it does to people whether you intended it or not.

    You are a real stand up person and should be proud of your brave stance in the face of all this information.

  378. 378
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    tpyos lives

  379. 379
    Inaji

    Rev. BDC:

    tpyos lives

    Which didn’t diminish your message in the least. That was a damn good post, Rev.

  380. 380
    chigau (違う)

    “You should be proud of your brave stance in the face of all this information.”
    would make a dandy t-shirt :):):)

  381. 381
    keresthanatos...I am my Evil Twin

    12
    jnorris

    January 22, 2013 at 3:07 pm (UTC -5) Link to this comment

    I bet all the members of these right-wingnut terrorists groups are sorry the report doesn’t award points for how dangerous and batshit crazy they are.

    Ya’ll got another one

  382. 382
    chigau (違う)

    keresthanatos #381
    ????
    Wrong thread?

  383. 383
    Inaji

    keresthanatos, it’s generally helpful to provide an actual link. While “batshit crazy” is still too common, it doesn’t quite get to the level of strait jackets are in order. I’ve always found jnorris to be very reasonable and I doubt they’d react the same as Indicus over a correction.

  384. 384
    ChasCPeterson

    **navigation status: crossthreadual merge. standard protocols apply.**

    Greenwood @ NYTimes thread::

    Hey. Asshole. You asserted (about me) X & Y, I denied it and requested you “explain and link or apologize,” and in reply you simply assert X, Y, and Z? Without linking, explaining, or apologizing? Fuck you. Please stop lying about me. And fuck you.

    Here are your claims:

    I have seen him be dismissive toward the experiences of rape survivors…on several threads relating to rape culture.

    I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.

    I have seen him be…ganerally obnoxious on several threads relating to rape culture.

    *shrug* ‘obnoxious’ is entirely subjective, but nevertheless:
    I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.

    turning up on threads about misogyny and rape culture, stating how boring you find the whole business

    I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.

    engaging in that obnoxious ‘I could comment, but I won’t’ trope you go in for

    yeah, that’s usually when I don’t want to have to teach Animal Behavior 101 to a bunch of North-campus types who don’t think it’s relevant anyway. With regard specifically to discussion of rape and rape culture:
    I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.

    on this very thread making crass comments about ‘circling wagons’ with regard to the comments of rape victims discussing how toxic rape apologia is

    Nah. No “rape apologia” has occurred here, not my me, and not by PaulW. The wagon-circling thing was not directed at “comments of rape victims,” you dishonest fuck, it was, instead, about the response to PaulW’s probing at the conventional casting of the widest possible interpretation of ‘victim-blaming’. But this is the very subject that I have forsworn.

    someone who goes onto a thread where victims of rape deal with a very painful topic, only to repeatedly make it clear how very boring you find the whole topic, as if there is something more important everyone should be discussing.

    I deny it. Please link one example or retract and apologize.

    It will probably come as grand revelation to you, but not everything is all about you and your pet obsessions.

    wtf, man? Occasionally I toss a comment into a large and ongoing discussion. I don’t buy a (very) few of the ideas that get promulgated around here. I am trying to talk about ideas, not me. If you can’t see that, fuck you.

    Sometimes, when you don’t have anything of worth to contribute, the best course is simply to stay silent and pay attention to what others have to say. It is times like that that you learn something.

    With this I will wholeheartedly agree.
    And so I am going to ask you again to please stop lying about me, and to apologize for the lies about me you have already posted.

  385. 385
    John Morales

    So, sometimes one reads news stories and just knows something is wrong.

    ‘Booby-trapped’ cannabis crops found in bushland

    They seized 173 plants, which have an estimated street value of $173,000.

    [...]

    Police had to be winched into the remote area to remove 53 cannabis plants, worth up to $106,000.

    (What I’ve learned: when police are winched, cannabis plants’ value doubles!)

  386. 386
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    @JM #385 Obviously those numbers seem a bit inconsistent but as someone with a bit of knowledge in this field neither set seems unlikely (I’m pretty sure your “dollars” are worth roughly the same as our real ones these days but I admit to being rather ignorant about the antipodean cannabis economy). Yield per plant can vary alot from strain to strain and growing conditions have a major impact as well. Honestly the estimated street value is way more conservative than the numbers I see in the press here, or my own evelope back for that matter.

    Hypothetically speaking of course on the west coast a pound of primo bud might fetch up to five grand at a dispensary, and a large outdoor plant can easily produce that much, plus a couple pounds of mid grade “popcorn” bud and a lot of trim that can be used to make hash or other extracts. Once you factor in the labor required to prepare it all for sale 1-2K per plant seems just about right actually.

  387. 387
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @318. Nightjar :

    This is absurd.

    Yes it is. An absurd strawperson of me in fact that overlooks what I actually said and substitutes its own non-reality in its place.

    “Hey, people from that country over there in the East, you have become, like, so civilized and stuff that you almost don’t look like an Eastern country!

    I have never said that Eastern civilisations aren’t civilised or that Japan doesn’t have it’s own culture which I enjoy and respect as much as anyone.

    I’m so pleased with your accomplishment I will even let you join my club, the West!

    The West isn’t “mine” or a “club”. I am a Westerner and I do hold and support Western values but that doesn’t mean I run or own the West or get to say whose in the club or out.

    What determines what is counted as Western or not?

    For me it’s a shared set of values, (pro-science, capitalist, pro-feminist, pro-environment, shared agreement on human rights etc .. ) economic and cultural commonalities and geopolitical military and diplomatic alliances. For instance the ANZAC alliance between Australia, the United States of America and New Zealand – and the nations that are allied to the USA and to some degree or other depend on its military for protection such as Australia and, yes, Japan. The West is basically the Allies from the two World Wars and the Cold War (where, note, Japan was on our side) plus a few others.

    I’ll concede that exact definitions of the West vary based on the different criteria and viewpoints with some definitions including Japan and others not doing so. Note there that I am far from the only person using the term in this broader sense. Eg. Toynbee from wikipedia :

    Countries of the Western world are generally considered to share certain fundamental political ideologies, including those of liberal democracy, the rule of law, human rights and a high degree of gender equality (although there are notable exceptions, especially in foreign policy). …(snip) .. The term “Western world” is often interchangeably used with the term First World stressing the difference between First World and the Third World or developing countries. [Note here that Japan is a First world nation. – ed.] ..(snip) … The thirty high-income countries in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), which include: Australia, Canada, Iceland, Israel, Japan, New Zealand,Norway, South Korea, Switzerland, the United States and the countries of the EU [Emphasis added –ed.] … (snip) .. [scholar of civilization Arnold J.] Toynbee entered into quite an expansive mode, including as candidates those countries or cultures who became so heavily influenced by the West as to adopt these borrowings into their very self-identity; carried to its limit, this would in practice include almost everyone within the West, in one way or another. In particular, Toynbee refers to the intelligentsia formed among the educated elite of countries impacted by the European expansion of centuries past. While often pointedly nationalist, these cultural and political leaders interacted within the West to such an extent as to change both themselves and the West. … (snip) …

    Japan has been exceptionally strongly influenced by the West, is politically allied to it and shares many Western values. Are any of you here seriously going to argue this reality or claim it as a bad thing?

    To say a nation that has Westernised and become a part of the West broadly defined – is a statement of fact not of racism just as saying a nation has industrialised or modernised is a fact and not racist. Race for those who still don’t get it pertains directly to skin colour and the rather silly notion that separate human races of varying intellects and capabilities even exist and that race is a determining factor in how people ought to be treated.

    *pat pat* Aren’t you happy?

    Do you honestly think Japanese people find it offensive to be described as broadly Western, allied to and politically part of the Western block? I don’t think so. They have after all gone to enormous trouble over the centuries to Westernise themselves as well as Industrialising and modernising their society. Have you not heard about the Meiji era or its post WWII occupation?

    See :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westernisation#Asia

    Many Japanese politicians have since also encouraged the Westernization of Japan using the term Datsu-A Ron, which means the argument for “leaving Asia” or “Good-bye Asia”. In Datsu-A Ron]], “Westernization” was described as an “unavoidable” but “fruitful” change. After Japan’s surrender to the USA and its allies ended World War II, the Westernization process of Japanese culture was further completed and today, Japan is notably among the most Westernized countries in Asia.

    Anecdata but when I was in Okayama the karaoke TVs all had images from New York even for the
    Japanese songs.

    … “What do you mean, I’m a condescending bigot? That was a compliment!

    Yes it was. It was meant as a compliment and should have been taken as such. Why do some here always try to interpret things in the worst possible way and read stuff into things that just aren’t there?
    Saying Japan has Westernised is also a statement of a positive fact. Just like saying that Japan is an industrlaised nation and a member of Western alliance, an OECD member, a G8 member, a US diplomatic ally etc ..

    What do you mean, Ehrenarier? I never said that!”
    *headdesk*

    Why? It is a simple fact that I have never said the word ‘Ehrenarier’ here – I don’t know what the hell that word supposedly means so either it’s a doozy of a typo I missed or you are confusing me with someone else.

  388. 388
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    That’s assuming of course that the plants were ready to harvest. Which doesn’t seem likely based on my admittedly limited understanding of your odd version of “seasons.”

  389. 389
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    Oh good, StevoR is at it again.

  390. 390
    Weedless Monkey

    StevoR, I guess in your game you’re the masochist pining for more punishment for doing the nasty. That’s all fine and dandy, but we are not your willing partners.

    Shut the fuck up.

  391. 391
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    Alright, look, Stevie, baby. Obviously you don’t like the word racist. Could you at least agree to “chauvinist warmonger?”

  392. 392
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @312. Caine, Fleur du mal +
    22 January 2013 at 11:55 am (UTC -6) Link to this comment

    Jesus Christ, looks like StevoR had a tantrum because he wasn’t the center of attention. :eyeroll:

    No tantrum but am I naturally, justifiably upset and angry that people here are lying about me and saying I’m some sort of horrible person when I’m not.

    @315. ChasCPeterson

    Why can’t you people understnd this? StevoR cannot possibly be a racist, because it’s not about skin color to him. People with skin of different shades from his use his RL bathroom all the time. QED.

    Yes. That is quite true.

    I get the feeling that could possibly have been intended as irony somehow but I don’t know how given the alternative scenario of not letting people of all “races” use my bathroom and what that would imply!

    @308. Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    SteveOR, liar, bullshitter, and paranoid Islamophobic bigot
    That’s a fucking lie. I’m NOT racist.
    Sorry, your words you post confirm you are a racist.

    For example? Evidence? Oh wait you haven’t got any examples or evidence of that have you? Fuck you can’t even get my username spelt right so clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about. You are factually wrong in literally every detail of your abusive lying bullying comment there.

    The only way you can demonstrate you aren’t a racist is to shut the fuck up and stop posting here. Period, end of story. So, when are you going away racist pig?

    Never Nerd you lying bully and hypocrite.

    Don’t like it. Tough. Start your own blog and participate there only if you can’t handle perspectives and people that disagree with your own.

    You have no control over me or any other commenters here except yourself and I have to wonder about that.

    You obviously missed my comment #291 here :

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/20/thunderdome-15/comment-page-1/#comment-542198

    I am not going to driven away by bullies and abuse.

    Bullies and abuse like yours Nerd.

    You won’t bully me off here so don’t bother trying. The more you do, the more determined I am to stay and not let you win.

    You, nerd, are a bully and a lying and a disgusting person.

    PS. I’ll have more responses for others later – incl. to stuff on the previous TD thread which I haven’t read yet – maybe tomorrow, maybe earlier depending.

  393. 393
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @389. dysomniak, darwinian socialist :

    Hey , if you want this discussion to end you and some of the others here who have also lied about and abused me could always face reality, admit you got it wrong and apologise to me then we could move on.

  394. 394
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    I just offered a compromise.

  395. 395
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    If you agree that you are in fact a warmongering chauvinist then I promise to never again use such an imprecise term as “racist” to describe you.

  396. 396
    chigau (違う)

    StevoR
    I don’t believe you.
    I don’t believe that you believe that Japanese people would find your description of them as ‘Western’ is an honor.
    I don’t believe that you think a three-piece-suit makes someone Western.
    バタくさい

  397. 397
    chigau (違う)

    I approve of the term ‘warmongering chauvinist’.

  398. 398
    Inaji

    StevoR, would you kindly get the 8 ton building repeatedly dropped on your head: you are not wanted here. Go Away.

  399. 399
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    I approve of the term ‘warmongering chauvinist’.

    Yes, it has flair. That said, it’s too good for StevoR, who is the garden variety of racist scum.

  400. 400
    Inaji

    Weed Monkey:

    StevoR, I guess in your game you’re the masochist pining for more punishment for doing the nasty. That’s all fine and dandy, but we are not your willing partners.

    QFMFT.

  401. 401
    chigau (違う)

    Caine
    “racist”
    Weeell. I’m not so sure.
    Japan is Western™.
    So when they strip to their (Japanese-style) undies and carry shrines through the streets of Tokyo, are they still white?
    oops. Did I say ‘white’?
    I meant Western™, of course.

  402. 402
    Inaji

    Chigau:

    So when they strip to their (Japanese-style) undies and carry shrines through the streets of Tokyo, are they still white?

    Hmmm. Possibly, given that their furrin, brown religion[s] doesn’t seem to be so terribly threatening for some reason, so yes, I suppose that automagically makes them all tidy and white.

  403. 403
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ StevoR

    Asseblief my kleinbasie, can I also be an honorary “Westerner”?


    Oh, and what Weed Monkey said.

  404. 404
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    This is why I like “chauvinist.” Much less ambiguous.

  405. 405
    chigau (違う)

    theophontes
    You stumped googletranslate!
    Asseblief my kleinbasie
    =
    Writ axes ing my little Baas

  406. 406
    Inaji

    I wonder if Indicus realizes, given their beliefs about guns, that the whole “unbalanced, batshit crazy, someone needs to put you in a strait jacket” crap could be applied to them, by their own standards.

    That one believes a lot of bad, stupid shit.

  407. 407
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ chigau

    Afrikaans:

    Asseblief = Please

    my = my
    kleinbasie = little + diminutive of boss

    The son (or immediate underling) of a boss is a “kleinbaas”. (It can also be used as a term of derision for someone who derives their power from someone else. It often refers to the son of a farmer who, however young, acts as if he where the boss. But it can also be used as a term of endearment (this last is not what I had in mind.)

    The term “baasschap” has Apartheid era connotations, where the power of the white bosses was not to be questioned.

  408. 408
    Inaji

    Time for a short rat break.

    Oh, Chester & Theo are on the bed with me, continually distracting me from my book. They race up and down the bed, jump up on my shoulders, then down, waiting on me to play…scritchy fingers are coming to get you! I chase with the scritchy fingers, get them, they roll over and grab my fingers while getting belly scritches, then they leap up, Chester dives under the covers to be chased by scritchy fingers while Theo pounces on scritchy fingers from on top of the covers. Lather, rinse, repeat. They are my clown princes and they make me laugh and love life.

    X-posted.

  409. 409
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    Like virtual parent like virtual rodent…. :)

  410. 410
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    To clarify what I *actually* think for those who may be confused :

    1. I do NOT believe in racism. Instead I oppose racism and think there is absolutely no scientific validity to the notion of “race” at all. We are all humans, third species of chimpanzee, stardust given mind and voice, organic bags made mostly of water and carbon on a pale blue dot against the Black.

    2. I do NOT advocate genocide; I oppose it and think that those who wish to attempt genocide should be prevented from committing it.

    3. I am NOT a bigot. I oppose all forms of bigotry – misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, ableism & anti-Semitism, etc.. are all unacceptable, unfounded in reason and unethical.

    4. I want all organised religions to disappear and the sooner the better. There’s probably no god, goddesses, gods and / or spirits.* I wish there was Karma and Justice but, hey, reality is what it is. Religion poisons almost everything.

    5. I believe in live and let live & personal freedom and choice up to the point where those choices harm others. Your freedom to swing your fist stops at my nose.**

    6. I believe in co-operation. kindness, and consideration of others and the environment one lives in. When we have a choice of making other peoples lives better or worse I think we do best to make others lives better unless we have very good reason to do otherwise.

    7. I don’t want war. War sucks and results in terrible human and environmental suffering. I do, however, acknowledge the reality that war is sometimes necessary as the lesser evil to prevent even worse harm and suffering to fellow humans.

    8. I do NOT wish to see nuclear or other WMDs used again. Ever. If it can possibly be avoided then it *should* be avoided. That goes for their potential usage against Iran, Israel, North Korea , the USA, Gaza-Hamas, Australia and everywhere else. I will admit I’ve said a few silly things in attempted jest or high emotion in the past to the contrary on this point and I now regret and apologise for that. I will never again advocate – even jokingly – the nuking or use of any WMDs against anyone.

    9. I want the world to be a better place and I want my presence in the world and here to make things better not worse. I wish more people acted to that end, I try to do so; but admit I sometimes fail in this and other regards.

    10. To quote John Stewart (‘twas ‘im weren’t it?) I may disagree with you but I am NOT Hitler. Only that Adolf Hitler was actually y’know, *that* Adolf Hitler. I’m a fallible human being who has fucked up at times and knows it – and so too are those who are arguing with me. None of us are perfect and none of us, I suspect, haven’t at times said things and been people we haven’t later regretted. All of us can learn and grow and make positive contributions in the future if we are given the chance to do so.

    Bullying others is always wrong however much you dislike them.

    That’s what I, StevoR one fallible, fucked up human individual, really think whatever the strawpeople caricatures of others may claim to the contrary.

    ‘k? Shalom? Salaam? Peace?

    PS. Belated Happy Martin Luther King day. I think Martin Luther King was one of the greatest ever Americans. Same too applies for Muhammad Ali and Benjamin Banneker. (See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Banneker if you haven’t already heard of him.)

    PPS. No, I haven’t yet read all those comments, so many of them, so little time. I get overwhelmed. But I will respond if folks want and ask me too. (& yeah, sometimes even if not.) No, that’s not “intellectually dishonest” but quite the reverse. I’m not some strange atemporal creature – is anyone? -and so, yeah, it takes me time to read and respond to stuff. I’ll get around to it, ‘k?

    * Outside of the purely alcoholic variety which, yes, I’ve got a weakness for.

    ** This applies to Muslims too. Leave me alone and I’m happy to reciprocate. I’ve no argument with the vast majority of Muslims who pose me no threat, I just object to those who conduct Jihad against the rest of us. Same applies for extremist Christians and other religions. I might think your beliefs are silly and your prophets foul but leave me in peace and I’m happy for you to choose to believe as wish.

  411. 411
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    I’m not leaving Pharyngula. I’m not being bullied off.

    I like this blog, respect many of the commenters and want to keep commenting here.

    If any of y’all have any ideas of what I can do to demonstrate to y’all I’m not the bigoted strawperson monster that some here very wrongly think I am; then I’d be delighted to hear them and would seriously consider what y’have to say. Advice please?

    (Besides leaving obviously.)

  412. 412
    Weedless Monkey

    If any of y’all have any ideas of what I can do to demonstrate to y’all I’m not the bigoted strawperson monster that some here very wrongly think I am; then I’d be delighted to hear them and would seriously consider what y’have to say. Advice please?

    You’re like a Klansman asking for advice for appearing more friendly while still burning crosses.

    Fuck you, shut the fuck up, and stay the fuck away from me.

  413. 413
    Inaji

    If any of y’all have any ideas of what I can do to demonstrate to y’all I’m not the bigoted strawperson monster that some here very wrongly think I am; then I’d be delighted to hear them and would seriously consider what y’have to say. Advice please?

    NO. You demonstrate the depth of your ugliness and the vileness of your bigotry with every fucking word you write, then you start this self pitying crap. NO.

    Did you get the full import of Weed Monkey’s previous post? We are not willing partners – you are forcing yourself on us. You are not wanted. GO AWAY.

  414. 414
    Nightjar

    *sigh*

    I have never said that Eastern civilisations aren’t civilised or that Japan doesn’t have it’s own culture which I enjoy and respect as much as anyone.

    No, you said:

    To say Japan is party of the Western club is meant as a compliment to them and how their culture has evolved.

    If you can’t see how condescending you sound there, I’m afraid I can’t help you. Seriously, “a compliment to them and how their culture has evolved”? No one needs or wants your fucking approval. I’m pleased enough with your culture’s evolution so I’m declaring you a honorary Western? How clueless does one have to be to not realise how condescending that sounds?

    For me it’s a shared set of values, (pro-science, capitalist, pro-feminist, pro-environment, shared agreement on human rights etc .. ) economic and cultural commonalities and geopolitical military and diplomatic alliances.

    And why the fuck do those values have to be so tied to the West? So much that when you discover that traditionally Eastern countries share them too you go on to declare them honorary Westerns, instead of simply acknowledging that upholding such values has nothing to do with being Western or Eastern?

    On that comment I linked to you also said:

    To become ‘Western’ is to become modern; to adopt a set of values and culture that is fundamentally, well, good.

    So, Western = Good. Eastern =…. have to strive much harder to reach that status?

    And this isn’t problematic, how exactly? I mean, you may not want to imply it. I’m not calling you a bigot or a racist right now, I’m telling you to think about how your words are going to be perceived and to be more careful how you use them.

    It is a simple fact that I have never said the word ‘Ehrenarier’ here – I don’t know what the hell that word supposedly means so either it’s a doozy of a typo I missed or you are confusing me with someone else.

    Oh, you don’t know what it means?

    Go google it. And don’t come back whining about Godwin’s Law. Do some self-reflection and ask yourself what you’re doing wrong that made pelamun thought of that word.

  415. 415
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    There is nothing StevoR can do to redeem himself in my view. The very few first times saw him spewing his racist crap I still gave him some benefit of the doubt (in my political activities I usually first try to do that), but that has long disappeared. I’m glad to see that many here share that view.

    Even if he genuinely regretted and apologised, that wouldn’t un-say the words he’s made. After such a long history of bigotry, you can just deny it out of existence. He is not a new commenter who came here with questionable views and after reforming those went on to be a respected regular, but he has shown himself consistently to be a bigoted racist. And he is still deliberately obtuse about it.

  416. 416
    pelamun, the Linguist of Doom

    Nightjar,

    to be fair, it was Theophontes, who from his South African experience came up with the word, but I of course fully share Theo’s view here.

  417. 417
    Inaji

    Pelamun:

    Even if he genuinely regretted and apologised

    He has never regretted it, however, he has tried the notpology route many times now, claiming his drunkenness was at fault, so pity him, he’s fallible, so pity him, “what can I do [to make you guys like me and accept me], pity me, on and on and on. He’s pulled it *again*, just a few posts supra.

    As for those vaunted “Western values”, such as pro-feminism, here’s a lovely bit of high-minded, Western pro-feminism:

    I saw this video comment someone made about video games and school shootings a while ago. In it they made a pretty compelling argument about how the dramatic way the press reports on shootings tends to encourage more shooters to want to become such much talked about dark and scary anti-heroes. And I’ve always been somewhat annoyed at the way most people treat islamic terrorists like such a bit threat. They’re given way too much credit: Compared to the common flu, to simply incomptent doctors, or bad drivers these chaps are total whimps as far as their body count is concerned. And nobody is calling for a war on pneumonia or spends billions to hunt down bad doctors.
    What I am trying to say in regard to online bullies and misogynists (or homophobes or any other kind of intolerant arseholes) is that they are arseholes. But there’s no law against that. And nor should there be, because they frankly aren’t worth it. They aren’t worth all this huff and defense.
    I totally get that nobody wants to feel physically threatened, but how big is that treat really? How many phyiscal assaults on columnists have there been – especially compared to the general level of muggings, robberies, or random hooliganism? If it is a real threat, hey, yeah, that needs to be fought, no doubt. But if not, if it’s mainly a case of arseholes not liking us or feeling threatened by our oppinions… um… isn’t it kind of a badge of honour to get as many arsehole reeling and puffing themselves up to defend their arseholeness?
    To be honest, I fear there is a bit of a victim culture at work, too. In a way it’s not all unpleasant to feel indignation and to proclaim one can’t go on because of the harsh treatment. It’s a great way to find someone we can feel angry about in the face of tiredness, and self-doubts (those ugly mysogynistic, or homophobic, or whatever other demeaning cultural stereotypes we suffer from are worst not outside of us, but where they’ve taken root in ourselves, aren’t they, and where they sap us of our strength and happiness by digging into our souls), and feel a little bit better about ourselves and reaffirm that we are standing on the right side, but that its too much, too hard, that we have good reason to withdraw or even quit.
    And hell, of course, everyone has the right to quit. But is it really those stupid arseholes that are the reason? Do we need to give them that much importance and power over us?
    Aren’t we feeding the trolls?

    Yeah, those “Western values” are just grand, aren’t they? *spits*

  418. 418
    Nightjar

    pelamun,

    to be fair, it was Theophontes, who from his South African experience came up with the word, but I of course fully share Theo’s view here.

    Noted.

    ***

    Caine,

    Time for a short rat break.

    :)

    How is Giles doing?

    (I asked on Rattitude but you probably didn’t see it yet.)

  419. 419
    Inaji

    Nightjar:

    How is Giles doing?

    (I asked on Rattitude but you probably didn’t see it yet.)

    No, I didn’t see it. Giles is doing fabulous. Lately, the rats have decided the studio annex, where I sleep, is a wonderful place and enjoy keeping me company in bed. It took a while, but Giles has happily joined the “oooh, let’s go jump on the bed!” crew. He was just in a while ago, pestering me about the tin of Bag Balm, trying to steal it. (They are fanatical about the stuff – it’s mostly lanolin.) Giles is now curled up in a corner the rats have claimed as theirs, with three girls piled on top of him. He’s a happy guy.

  420. 420
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Yawn, Islamophobic bigot is back lying, lying some more, and adding to his body of lies and bullshit. It doesn’t have the decency to shut the fuck up. But then, introspection, honesty, and integrity are foreign concepts to bigots.

    Fuck off bigot. Spew your toxins elsewhere.
    *brings in industrial grade disinfectants*

  421. 421
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I wanted to ignore StevoR. I did quite well for a while. But Weed Monkey put it great about us being non-willing participants. I want to ignore StevoR, but his racism can’t be ignored since he’s pushing it under our noses constantly.

  422. 422
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    Re: Western Values:

    If according to SteveoR, the following are Western Values:

    For me it’s a shared set of values, (pro-science, capitalist, pro-feminist, pro-environment, shared agreement on human rights etc .. ) economic and cultural commonalities and geopolitical military and diplomatic alliances

    Why the hell is the US in the list?

  423. 423
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    I wanted to ignore StevoR.

    Same here. However, that doesn’t work unless everyone is doing it. Also, as you point out, we can’t let the racism slide.

  424. 424
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    StevoR, if you wish to redeem yourself in our eyes, you have to go away for an extended time. Five years sounds good. No interaction with Pharyngula at all. Although, given the memories of the the folks here, your lies, bullshit, and bigotry will still be remembered. And when you come back, you have to explain why you were wrong and apologize for your bigotry in detail, acknowledging your bigotry and chauvinism.

  425. 425
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    And I’ll answer my question:

    It’s because Western = White.

  426. 426
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    [South African]

    I feel a bit left out. StevoR still hasn’t confirmed that I can join the “Western club”. Am I being snubbed here?


    Groucho Marx’s letter of resignation to the Friars’ Club:

    “I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.”

  427. 427
    Inaji

    Kat Lorraine:

    Why the hell is the US in the list?

    I had the exact same thought. The U.S. is a pit anymore. Hardly an example of such high ideals.

  428. 428
    Inaji

    Theophontes:

    I feel a bit left out. StevoR still hasn’t confirmed that I can join the “Western club”. Am I being snubbed here?

    Well, that depends. Have you been all washed clean and white?

  429. 429
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Adding to theophontes’ question about South Africa:

    What about Russia?

    I would love to see an answer from StevoR to both these questions.

  430. 430
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Caine

    Have you been all washed clean and white?

    Hey, give me a break, I just got home from work…

  431. 431
    Inaji

    Beatrice:

    I would love to see an answer from StevoR to both these questions.

    I wouldn’t.

  432. 432
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Caine,

    “love to” was probably the wrong word choice. It’s more “will roll my eyes and possibly start laughing a horrified laugh when I read the answer even though I suspected it”.

    I would love if he left. Unfortunately, short of a bannination, I’m not expecting that any more. (shifty look in PZ’s direction, because really)

  433. 433
    theophontes (恶六六六缓步动物)

    @ Beatrice

    What about Russia?

    Hey,good point. Perhaps I could get in via the “Hong Kong route”! As a former colony of Japan, it is sorta “Western” by the definition given.

    Anyway, there are lots of Japanese restaurants. And even more restaurants styled “Western Restaurants”. There are Russians here too. There is even a Russian restaurant up the road from us.

    That’s Western right? I’d hate to get my hopes up, just to find I’m merely “cosmopolitan”

  434. 434
    Inaji

    Beatrice, I meant I wouldn’t in the sense that I don’t want to read one more fucking word written by StevoRacist. I just want him to leave.

    (shifty look in PZ’s direction, because really)

    Adds hairy eyeball in PZ’s direction, because really. After all, he asked us all about whether or not Raj Kumar should meet the banhammer…

  435. 435
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Ahhh yes a new day. Sun is shining, the neighbors are watering their lawn in 35° F weather, the Lotus Notes servers at work are behaving like they know I’m getting ready to leave for the Dominican Republic on Sunday so they are crashing, I made coffee in the work coffee machine and neglected to put the pot under the brewing device aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand StevoR is still unable to grasp that his words have meaning.

    Life is good.

  436. 436
    Inaji

    Rev, you’re going to the Dominican Republic? Why for and how long?

    I made coffee in the work coffee machine and neglected to put the pot under the brewing device

    I did that yesterday. Fun, ennit?

  437. 437
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Leaving on Sunday coming back on Friday!

    And yes the coffee thing, awesome. I do it about twice a year on days when I’m busy as shit just to make my level of headassploding that much higher.

  438. 438
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Oh and why

    One of my best friend’s 40th. He and a bunch of buddies who live[d] in Telluride together are going down. Both his and my wife can’t make it for prior commitments which kinda sucks but I bet we’ll find a way to have fun. His sister is a really good friend too and she’s coming with her husband.

    And of course being the only IT guy in my company of 300+ employees and 14 locations everyone here is kinda freaking out. I’ve never taken a vacation here that they weren’t able to easily get in touch with me.

    This week has been interesting.

  439. 439
    Inaji

    That sounds like all kinds of fun, Rev!

    I’ve never taken a vacation here that they weren’t able to easily get in touch with me.

    I sense an opportunity here. Perhaps you should “lose” your phone and just never be in your hotel. :D

  440. 440
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Rev,

    Eat lots of (traditional) Dominican food and tell us all about it later.

    There is a food blog I read, with traditional recipes of Dominican Republic. I’m hungry just thinking about it.

    Oh, and have fun!

  441. 441
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I plan on it…. if I can escape from all the worried grasping hands here at the office.

    I think I saw the CEO with some chains and a pad lock sneaking into the office today.

  442. 442
    Pteryxx

    *reads back*

    …And yes, I really did have Muslim friends, I’ve hung out with a whole park full of Muslims (they’d rented the place to celebrate the end of Ramadan, I think) and I didn’t find that the least bit incredible or unthinkable.

    Unlike some.

  443. 443
    Inaji

    Weird association time. I first heard of, and learned about Ramadan when I was around 9 years old from reading King of the Wind by Marguerite Henry.

  444. 444
    Amphiox

    So long as StevoR continues to insist he is not a bigot/racist, so long as he continues to lie and delude himself, he cannot be redeemed.

    Because he was and is. His words, freely chosen, were and are.

    No apology is adequate or even meaningful without first honest admission of the transgression.

    Even the Catholics require you to confess your sins before being forgiven.

  445. 445
    Pteryxx

    Hey Caine, so did I!

  446. 446
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    Hey Caine, so did I!

    Sweet. :D

  447. 447
    Pteryxx

    …it doesn’t speak much to my little-kid cultural diversity that I assigned ‘Ramadan’ the exact same significance as ‘white spot on off hind foot’, but hey, it was a start. (Also I’ve never read King of the Wind as an adult, but I get the feeling it was less racist than my Christian-fundie books about bringing white-man-medicine-God’s-word to the dirty ignorant heathen tribes. Maybe we should recommend it to StevoR?)

  448. 448
    Inaji

    I remember being fascinated, so I begged for a trip to the library so I could inquire about Ramadan and Morocco. I came away with a stack of books, but I don’t remember what they were now. I remember King of the Wind fairly well, and for a book written in 1949, it was rather pointed about casual, accepted racism and treatment of those considered ‘other’.

    Fuck, I wish I still had it, I’d read it again right now.

  449. 449
    Pteryxx

    TO GOOGLE BOOKS! /away!

  450. 450
    Pteryxx

    Caine: also when you’re done with that Manhood book, check this out:

    “It took no training in philosophy to decipher the misogyny behind the use of the word ‘cunt.’”

    This is from his [Jack Holland's] book “Misogyny: The World’s Oldest Prejudice.”
    “He began work on “Misogyny” in 2002″ according to his daughter Jenny Holland, “The topic was quite the conversation starter. A common response from other men, when my father told them what he was working on, was an assumption that he was writing some sort of defence of misogyny, a reaction he found startling.”

    Holland died after he finished the manuscript, but his surviving wife and daughter had trouble getting it published:
    http://www.msmagazine.com/radar/2006-10-05-misogyny.asp

    Also see here for excerpts: http://jackholland.net/prejudice.php

    From theoreticalgrrl’s comment at Ophelia’s:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2013/01/why-so-fussed/#comment-434653

  451. 451
    annejones

    Okay, I’m back, and I’m focusing purely on the Intelligent Design part, so that I can try and stay on one topic as opposed to the multitude I was guilty of bringing up last time. So here’s Part 1 of my response to various comments:

    With regards to “1.”, which “studies” would those be? More details about the specifics of your claim would be very helpful

    I am not relying on any Christian apologets source for this. What I rely on is the work done by John Barrow and Frank Tipler in their book “The Anthropic Cosmological Principle”. You’re welcome to pick that book up and read it, but here is a summary statement I put together from the book that explains this:

    Frank Tipler is a professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University and John Barrow is a professor of Astronomy at Sussex. They are both well-respected scientists and are not writing as Christians, but as scientists.

    In their book “The Anthropic Cosmological Principle” (pp. 562-564), they note the vast improbability of life developing anywhere in the universe. They list 10 crucial ingredients that must be present for life to develop. Interestingly, each of these are so improbable and would take so much time to develop through blind evolutionary processes alone that before they occurred (and we’re talking each of these processes independently…not all 10 of them happening together), our sun would have ceased to be a main sequence star and would have burned up the earth!

    Here are the 10 steps (EACH OF WHICH is highly improbable):
    1. The development of the DNA-based genetic code
    2. The invention of aerobic respiration
    3. The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid
    4. The origin of autotropic photosynthesis
    5. The origin of mitochondria
    6. The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex
    7. The evolution of an eye precursor
    8. The development of endoskeleton
    9. The development of chordates
    10. The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage

    On your “2.”, if you’re referring to the fact that abiogenesis is a topic for which we don’t have all the answers, then yeah, you’re right: We don’t have all the answers.

    That is what I’m referring to. But it’s more than just not having the answers. It’s this untenable faith commitment that life can spring from non-life. Every attempt at an explanation has failed. Every experiment (even the Miller-Urey experiment) has not met the necessary standard. Couple this with the fact that we DO have reasonable answers when reasoning to the origin of life from the existence of a necessary being that is himself the first cause, though He is uncaused (he exists by the necessity of his own being) and you have a good reason to doubt naturalistic explanations.

    [shrug]

    This is the problem. Your view requires FAR more faith than I’m able to muster. You leverage a naturalism of the gaps (a true argument from ignorance) to reach your conclusions. You conclude that even though we have no explanation (and no hope for an explanation) for how life spontaneously appeared from non-life, it MUST be a natural explanation. So you’ve conveniently wedged “unknown natural cause” into that gap. I can’t leverage ‘gaps’ arguments and I can’t argue from ignorance. I don’t have enough faith to do that.

    I don’t quite see how you get from “I don’t know” to “therefore, God”, but if that’s what makes you happy, go for it.

    Then let me help you…we don’t say “they can’t explain the origin of life, so God must have done it”. No, we have positive arguments for God’s existence, which are scientific, logical and philosophical in origin. And with this evidence we are able to use that evidence to conclude that God is the best explanation for everything. Thus, we don’t rely on your lack of ability to get the answer. We rely on our evidence to conclude that God is the source of everything. We just recognize that abiogenesis is a profound gap that you guys can’t cross (and will never be able to cross, in my view).

    I just hope you recognise that this argument-from-ignorance doesn’t fit well school curricula, okay?

    I agree completely. This is why you should stop saying that evolution (without the guidance of an intelligence) is a decided fact. It isn’t. And when you claim it is, you’re arguing from ignorance.

    If you are, instead, arguing that we have absolutely no clue whatsoever about abiogenesis, well, that’s just wrong. We know that mindless, undirected chemistry is perfectly capable of generating amino acids without any need for a Designer’s intervention; we kno that random concatenations of amino acids can and do have biologically-relevant chemical properties. Both of these facts being the case, it’s pretty clear that we have more than just a clue about abiogenesis

    Let me offer an analogy on this.

    Suppose that you decide you’re going to study the origin of rain. And before you get started, you determine that rain cannot come from clouds (because maybe you don’t believe in clouds, or whatever). You spend a significant amount of time and get some tantalizing details (rain comes down, not up…it tends to occur when there is thunder and wind…the ground is typically wet during a rainstorm, etc.). And you say “we’re closing in on the source! Look how much we know about rain!”

    Suppose then that I come to you and say “sure, you’ve got some interesting data. But it does not explain the source of rain. And it never will because you reject the idea that rain comes from clouds.” Your response is “you are just arguing from ignorance when you say that since I haven’t proven the source of rain, it must be clouds.”

    I then proceed to offer you the evidence that rain does come from clouds (to demonstrate that I’m not arguing from ignorance, but have good reasons to believe rain comes from clouds).

    This is what’s happening here. You’ve got some interesting information. But you’ll never explain the origin of life because you reject the source of the origin of life. And I don’t say that as an argument from ignorance. I have the evidence which leads me to the conclusion that God is the source of all things. This is why I believe. It’s a deductive conclusion. Yours, however (the belief that life sprang into being purely through natural means) IS an argument from ignorance, and it’s a ‘gaps’ argument as I’ve already explained.

  452. 452
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I am not relying on any Christian apologets source for this. What I rely on is the work done by John Barrow and Frank Tipler

    Read that again.

    And again.

    Really, read that again.

  453. 453
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    No christian apologetic yet Frank J. Tipler wrote a book called The Physics of Christianity.

  454. 454
    chigau (違う)

    annejones
    What does “probability” mean?

  455. 455
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Jesus, Anne. You’re way down the rabbit hole. Do you think this is anything that hasn’t been said five million times before? Do you have any idea how thoroughly and soundly that “reasoning” has been debunked, and for how many decades?

    I don’t know you well enough to know whether you’re motivated by a deep emotional attachment to the idea of a creator god, or whether you honestly believe you’re thinking analytically. But it’s sad either way.

    Read more widely.

  456. 456
    annejones

    Okay, and here’s Part 2

    The two that spring to mind are: An unidentified ‘intelligent designer’ doesn’t lead to the conclusion of ‘therefore, God’ – which is often how ID is used to justify the belief in God, despite the fact that there could be any other number or kinds of ‘intelligent designer’ that would not be considered deities – particularly when we allow for unknowable unknowns.

    I actually agree with this statement, Jon. ID is a good discipline and it has given us some very interesting information. I believe a designer is behind everything, but I agree with you that some people try to do more with it than is justified by the science. And I also agree that knowing there is an intelligent designer does not mean it’s the God of scripture.

    Having said that, there are certain things we can know about the designer just from observing the design (and I’m using ‘He’ here for convenience):

    - He exists
    - He is immaterial and timeless (because material and time are part of the creation)
    - He is quite powerful
    - He is incredibly intelligence
    - He is a creator that values order
    - He is interested in being known by His creations
    - He is not dependant on the universe (in other words, He is not a component of His creation)

    There are other things we could deduce, but this gives you a sense of it. We certainly can’t know everything about the creator from knowing that He exists and created all things. But there are certain things we can know for sure.

    The problem with this is that in order to prove that a thing demonstrates specified complexity, the argue-er must first demonstrate that it is both complex and designed.

    I don’t think that’s what they do, and I don’t think it falls prey to the trap you’ve set. I think people like Stephen Meyer would say that things like cells demonstrate design and from this we can infer a designer (this is certainly the view I take). For me Paley’s watch argument is quite convincing. I know that there has been an attempt by atheists to discredit it, but no one will ever be able to convince me that someone stumbling upon a watch lying in the grass (even for someone who was unfamiliar with watches and time-keeping) would not lead them to conclude that someone designed the watch. It’s simply never going to happen no matter how many times that scenario plays out.

    Carl Sagan even proved my point for me in his book ‘Contact’. In there, Elle determined that radio signals from outer space had an intelligent origin because they were transmitted in a specified pattern (prime numbers). So she heard the information, recognized the pattern, understood design, and concluded a designer.

    She didn’t fall into your trap (though she certainly was an advocate of ID when it came to those signals) and the ID movement doesn’t either, in my view.

    I’ll agree with you that some take ID and use it to say “the God of scripture is real” without any additional reasoning. But it’s not wrong to take the findings of science and conclude there is a designer of some sort. And that’s all this argument is intended to do…lead to the conclusion of a designer.

    These two fatal flaws in ways that Intelligent Design is commonly used to justify belief in a cosmic designer are, well… fatal

    They really aren’t. Partially because they don’t do what you claim they do.

    All the same, given that you are an advocate of Intelligent Design, I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on my critique of ID

    I think you’ve attacked a straw man.

    I’ve presented these problems that I have with ID to other ID proponents and been met with silence or a change in topic. You’re under no obligation to do so, of course. I’m just curious as to what you think.

    One thing I don’t do is simply go silent or try to change the subject. I am interested primarily in truth. I will follow it where it leads. Thus far, the quest for truth has led me to conclude that God exists, that Jesus lived and taught and died and rose again, and that the Christian worldview is true.

  457. 457
    Kevin, Youhao Huo Mao

    @Anne:

    Dear gods, probability does not work that way! You’re not looking at one person rolling one die a billion times trying to come up with a specific sequence of events. You’re looking at a billion people rollion a billion dice a billion times! These events did not occur in isolation:

    1. The development of the DNA-based genetic code
    2. The invention of aerobic respiration
    3. The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid
    4. The origin of autotropic photosynthesis
    5. The origin of mitochondria
    6. The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex
    7. The evolution of an eye precursor
    8. The development of endoskeleton
    9. The development of chordates
    10. The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage

    Besides that, THIS does not equal the 10 crucial ingredients for life. This is a list of the 10 crucial ingredients for humans. There is likely some planet somewhere else in the entire vast, VAST, VAST universe where some species exist without an endoskeleton, or without eyes, or without a DNA code, or without aerobic respiration. You and all the other god botherers see life and think “people” but life can mean something completely foreign to us.

    The anthropic principle is a stupid, stupid way to look at the universe cause you’re in the universe! If the universe wasn’t such that we weren’t here, then we wouldn’t be here to wonder why the universe isn’t such that we exist. Some other type of life might surely exist and wonder why the universe is such that they exist, and not some other kind of life form. Savvy?

  458. 458
    Ing

    name a single factual discovery ID has made

    ONE

  459. 459
    Inaji

    Pteryxx:

    Caine: also when you’re done with that Manhood book, check this out:

    Wow, thank you! I will check that out right away.

  460. 460
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I see that Anne Jones has not bothered to answer Cubist at her own blog.

  461. 461
    chigau (違う)

    Does anyone really want to have this brain-dead discussion?
    Again?
    I mean, Paley’s watch?

  462. 462
    pentatomid

    Paley’s watch a convincing argument? Oh boy.

  463. 463
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I am not relying on any Christian apologets source for this.

    You essentially are. Show us your imaginary deity/designer really exists with solid and conclusive physical evidence, not mental wanking. You need to provide conclusive physical evidence for your imaginary deity. Evidence that will pass muster with scientists, magicians, and professional debunkers, as being of divine, and not natural (scientifically explained), origin. Somethink like the eternally burning bush. Tell us where to find it.

    Your mental wanking about the anthropomorphic principal doesn’t qualify, as science does have explanations, which you ignore. And the probability of life as we know it somewhere in the universe is 1. Low probability is meaningless with a large number of suns and planets to overcome your inane probabilities.

    Try again with real evidence. Leave the philosophy about your imaginary deity where it belongs, in the sewer, with the rest of the Xian apologetics.

  464. 464
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    I see that annejones is siting Carl Sagan yet she still lives in a demon haunted world.

    Classic cherry picker.

  465. 465
    Ing

    no I really don’t want to talk to another arrogant scientific illiterate

    Which you are Anne. When it comes to science you can’t tell rabbit turds from rice crispys but you still moronically talk down to people who have specialized on the subject

  466. 466
    Ing

    better challenge. Find me an atheist eho has accepted ID while maintaining atheism. find me one who has been convinced by the scientific merits

  467. 467
    Inaji

    Anne Jones, you conveniently ran away, and I know you hope to avoid the responses you received last time (answering questions, so tough, eh?), however, I’d like an answer to mine, which can be found in the previous thread:

    AJ:

    Again, say what you want about my arguments, but at least you’re not going to see me advocating the subjugation of women or denying them their abortion rights or being super-duper mean to gay people.

    As a member of the GLBT community, I’d like a definition of “super-duper mean”. Assuming you aren’t actually twelve years old, this would seem to indicate a degree of meanness. So, you aren’t down with “super-duper” mean, but this implies you are alright with a different degree of meanness, as in, oh, you’re good with being normal mean to gay people.

    So, let’s have some specifics, such as “it’s wrong to beat up a gay person, that’s super-duper mean!” but it’s okay to “protest against gays at school or them getting married, because that’s icky and wrong and it’s not really mean.”

  468. 468
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Annejones also does not seem aware that our bodies are not intelligently designed. A head that is too big to get through the pelvic bone? Nerves that goes from the brain, around the heart before it goes back to the head? Knees? The structural weakness in males that allows for the genitalia to be held out of the torso but leaves males open to hernias?

    And a whole lot more.

    Intelligence, my ass. Our bodies are kluges.

  469. 469
    Ing

    wait AJ wants kuddos for being a bad Christian and ignoring God’s law?

    Um no

  470. 470
    pentatomid

    Not to mention backbones that are actually not very well adapted at walking upright. The human body, and that of most vertebrates actually, is a pretty piss-poor job if it was intelligently designed. That designer must have been one incompetent arse.

  471. 471
    Inaji

    Pteryxx! Went to B&N and bought Misogyny, downloading to my nook now. Thank you. ♥

  472. 472
    Inaji

    Pentatomid:

    Not to mention backbones that are actually not very well adapted at walking upright.

    Pick me! Pick me! My spine is doing its damnedest to disintegrate on me, one vertebrae at a time. If we’re designed, it was by a dull witted stump of a fuckwit.

  473. 473
    Aratina Cage

    Hey annejones #451,

    we DO have reasonable answers when reasoning to the origin of life from the existence of a necessary being that is himself the first cause, though He is uncaused (he exists by the necessity of his own being) and you have a good reason to doubt naturalistic explanations.

    Careful with your sporadic capitalization efforts there. Wouldn’t want to burn in Hell forever because you forgot to properly capitalize God’s pronouns, now would you?

  474. 474
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    A few years ago, my back gave out. For a couple of months, I had to work myself up just to be able to stand up. There were times, when lying down, I could not roll over. There were nights, when I laid down, I could not get up and had to sleep with the lights and my TV on.

    I gave thanks for my intelligently designed back.

  475. 475
    athyco

    Caine:

    Weird association time. I first heard of, and learned about Ramadan when I was around 9 years old from reading King of the Wind by Marguerite Henry.

    I taught King of the Wind for below-grade 8th graders. Maps for Morocco, France, England, and Canada (the first chapter for the match race between Man o’ War and Sir Barton). Ramadan, Quakers, Catholicism for the French monarchy, the Church of England. Even Newgate Gaol and Dick Whittington’s cat! I got tired of a number of other novels we were assigned to teach. But so much in King of the Wind that the kids had never heard of kept it fresh.

  476. 476
    Inaji

    Athyco:

    Ramadan, Quakers, Catholicism for the French monarchy, the Church of England. Even Newgate Gaol and Dick Whittington’s cat!

    And Wicken Fen! I *loved* that book.

  477. 477
    A. Noyd

    A bit late, but:
    Why don’t we ask the Ainu, the Ryukyuans (Okinawans), the Taiwanese, the Koreans, the Manchurians, most of Southeast Asia, various South Seas island communities, and the like how much they appreciated it when Japan adopted the “fundamentally good” Western values of large-scale empire building, colonization, social Darwinism, and forced assimilation?

  478. 478
    ChasCPeterson

    The human body, and that of most vertebrates actually, is a pretty piss-poor job if it was intelligently designed.

    Not true. The vast majority of vertebrates are fishes, for which the design is both completely appropriate and highly refined.

  479. 479
    Rev. BigDumbChimp

    I actually agree with this statement, Jon. ID is a good discipline and it has given us some very interesting information.

    What “information” has it given us?

    And how do you verify it?

  480. 480
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    - He exists
    - He is immaterial and timeless (because material and time are part of the creation)
    - He is quite powerful
    - He is incredibly intelligence
    - He is a creator that values order
    - He is interested in being known by His creations
    - He is not dependant on the universe (in other words, He is not a component of His creation)

    HE is also quite obviously male.
    And Anne is positive of that. She can only provide some philosophical arguments but she surely has personally inspected his genitals*…

    *not intended to be gender-essentialist.

  481. 481
    myeck waters

    anne jones:

    Here are the 10 steps (EACH OF WHICH is highly improbable):
    1. The development of the DNA-based genetic code
    2. The invention of aerobic respiration
    3. The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid
    4. The origin of autotropic photosynthesis
    5. The origin of mitochondria
    6. The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex
    7. The evolution of an eye precursor
    8. The development of endoskeleton
    9. The development of chordates
    10. The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage

    Somebody actually wrote down that list – as a sequence of events that had to happen?

    That’s incredibly stupid. You should take note of the authors’ names and never read anything by them ever again, because they are either idiots or liars.

  482. 482
    Nightjar

    annejones,

    the vast improbability of life developing anywhere in the universe

    And yet, it did.

    They list 10 crucial ingredients that must be present for life to develop.

    If they do, you didn’t list them. Those things you listed aren’t “ingredients that must be present for life to develop”, they’re things that evolved after life developed. All of them.

    each of these are so improbable and would take so much time to develop through blind evolutionary processes

    You will need more than an argument from incredulity to establish that. Saying “OMG I cannot possibly imagine how that evolved!” is not an argument. Do you understand why?

    There is a lot to be said and lot you could learn about the evolution of each one of them, but really, you can go do that on your own. Or pick one that really intrigues you and we can try to discuss it. But ten? Sorry, I have better things to do.

    life can spring from non-life

    Define “life”. Trust me, this is important. It’s also very tricky, but I’m hoping that in your attempt to do so you will understand that there’s a continuum between life and non-life, so getting life from non-life doesn’t sound so mysterious any more.

    and I’m using ‘He’ here for convenience

    For… convenience? Please explain.

    ***
    Katherine Lorraine,

    This is a list of the 10 crucial ingredients for humans.

    Not even that! Humans don’t do number #4 in that list.

    I guess it’s a list of… random things that the authors find puzzling. Or something. Now that I think about it, what are a “professor of Mathematical Physics” and a “professor of Astronomy” doing telling biologists and biochemists that those ten things are highly improbable and couldn’t have evolved? Ever wondered about that, annejones?

  483. 483
    John Morales

    annejones:

    In their book “The Anthropic Cosmological Principle” (pp. 562-564), they note the vast improbability of life developing anywhere in the universe.

    So much for the finely-tuned for life claim, then. :)

    It’s this untenable faith commitment that life can spring from non-life. Every attempt at an explanation has failed.

    Well then, if you hold life cannot come from non-life, then your god must be alive.
    But since your god is alive, its life must have come from something else that was alive.

    (What living thing made your god?)

    Your view requires FAR more faith than I’m able to muster. You leverage a naturalism of the gaps (a true argument from ignorance) to reach your conclusions.

    That’s because you don’t question your faith in the supernatural, and thus discount it as faith.

    (I don’t need faith in the natural; there it is all around me!)

    Then let me help you…we don’t say “they can’t explain the origin of life, so God must have done it”. No, we have positive arguments for God’s existence, which are scientific, logical and philosophical in origin.

    Saying “goddidit” ain’t an explanation.

    Saying how god did it would be, if it didn’t boil down to “it made a miracle”.

    (Also, what specific scientific, logical and philosophical positive arguments lead you to believe that your god merits the male pronoun?)

    Suppose that you decide you’re going to study the origin of rain. And before you get started, you determine that rain cannot come from clouds (because maybe you don’t believe in clouds, or whatever).

    Stupid analogy; if clouds were invisible you might have a point.

    But you’ll never explain the origin of life because you reject the source of the origin of life.

    You haven’t explained it either, you’ve just said a magical being poofed it into existence.

    Bah.

  484. 484
    Nightjar

    Stupid analogy indeed.

    Suppose that you decide you’re going to study the origin of rain. And before you get started, you determine that rain cannot come from clouds

    First, no one determined that life cannot come from an invisible supernatural being before they got started. We merely concluded that it is an unparsimonious non-hypothesis after analysing it.

    because maybe you don’t believe in clouds, or whatever

    Second, clouds aren’t invisible supernatural beings that show no sign of existing and aren’t even well defined.

    I then proceed to offer you the evidence that rain does come from clouds

    Third… do I really have to point out that you have not done the equivalent to this?

  485. 485
    la tricoteuse

    Apparently, Nightjar, saying “Oh yeah, I’ve got loads of evidence” is the same as actually presenting it.

  486. 486
    la tricoteuse

    Afterthought: Or does he/she mean “offered” in the sense of “I offered Bob some wine when he came over,” to mean “I mentioned to Bob that there was wine in my fridge but made no move to actually go get it.”

  487. 487
    consciousness razor

    Having said that, there are certain things we can know about the designer just from observing the design (and I’m using ‘He’ here for convenience):

    - He exists

    How do you know that? Which specific observations are supposed to support this?

    - He is immaterial and timeless (because material and time are part of the creation)

    How do you know that? (Feel free to keep repeating that yourself as we go on.)

    - He is quite powerful

    How so? More powerful than what? Is he bigger than a breadbox? How about his genitals?

    What would it even mean to say there’s something “powerful” which is immaterial and non-temporal? We observe material stuff exerting forces on other material over some amount of time. That’s actually what our observations are, of any bit of this purported “design,” and there are none of immaterial non-temporal “powers” floating about (nowhere, presumably) being “powerful” in some undefined way. Why do you think that is?

    - He is incredibly intelligence

    By “incredibly,” you must mean unbelievably rather than amazingly, because I have no idea how an immaterial non-temporal whatchamacallit is supposed to be intelligent. How about you stop groveling and lavishing praise on your cosmic buddy Jesus for a second, so you could try telling us something useful? (You’re not talking to him right now. Remember?) Does he know everything there is to know or only everything he could know? If the latter (the only option that would make sense), what sorts of things is he unintelligent about? If you can’t at least say something about that, then why say he’s “incredibly intelligent” at all? What good is it?

    - He is a creator that values order

    Then why is entropy increasing? Did he get bored performing miracles? Or is he more incompetent in his old timeless age? Or maybe he doesn’t value his creation as much anymore? Or what? (I mean, besides a god not existing, obviously, those are the only options that pop into my head.)

    - He is interested in being known by His creations

    What makes you think you know he has interests? Explain that and how that could work, then we’ll get to whether and how you know what at least one of his interests is. That’s also after we know we’re dealing with your specific god, give or take a Jesus, a Satan and who knows what else.

    - He is not dependant on the universe (in other words, He is not a component of His creation)

    So, according to you, why does a god exist? (Would there need to be another god to make him, and another, etc.?) Was existing one of his many interests? Was it the intelligent thing to do? Was he powerful enough while non-existent (which, oddly, seems to be the same “while” as it is for the existent-and-timeless version) to make himself exist? Is it because there just had to be someone to make the things-he-hadn’t-yet-made orderly (then more and more disorderly) — and that’s the reason why a god exists?

    Looks to me like you haven’t “deduced” shit. Start over without a god, then see if one is actually needed anywhere along the way, to do anything other than preach at people about nonsense. (Hint: it won’t be.)

  488. 488
    Nightjar

    One more thing,

    even though we have no explanation (and no hope for an explanation) for how life spontaneously appeared from non-life

    abiogenesis is a profound gap that you guys can’t cross (and will never be able to cross, in my view).

    Tell me, annejones, how up to date are you with abiogenesis research to make those assertions with such confidence? What were the last papers you read on prebiotic chemistry research? Seriously, name a few. I mean, the way you talk about it, the way you say there is “no hope for an explanation”… surely you wouldn’t be pontificating on it like that if you weren’t very familiar with field, right?

  489. 489
    consciousness razor
    and I’m using ‘He’ here for convenience

    For… convenience? Please explain.

    Well, I’m sure it is awfully convenient to be a Christian, compared to any other kind of goddist. You don’t even need to read the dusty old book everyone wants you to thump. Just thump it, say “Jesus” now and then, hate “sinners” of some kind or another (possibly including yourself), and you’re in.

  490. 490
    thetalkingstove

    Not only is the human body not intelligently designed, the whole bloody planet is a botched job. Earthquakes, God? Really? That’s your idea of a good design feature? You’re either incompetent or a sadist. Or non-existent.

  491. 491
    vaiyt

    Here are the 10 steps (EACH OF WHICH is highly improbable):
    1. The development of the DNA-based genetic code
    2. The invention of aerobic respiration
    3. The invention of glucose fermentation to pyruvic acid
    4. The origin of autotropic photosynthesis
    5. The origin of mitochondria
    6. The formation of the centriole/kinetosome/undulipodia complex
    7. The evolution of an eye precursor
    8. The development of endoskeleton
    9. The development of chordates
    10. The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage

    None of those events are necessary for life. In fact, there are lifeforms today that don’t follow one, several or all of those steps. The exception is step 1, but that’s only because RNA-based viruses straddle the definition of “life”.

    Besides, this is a classic error of probability, confounding the probability of a specific sequence of events with the probability of any sequence. If you don’t get a full house, that doesn’t mean you’ll end up with no cards on your hand. If life didn’t evolve to be us, it would be something else.

  492. 492
    John Morales

    vaiyt, you’re dealing with someone who adduces multiple claims some of which are mutually-contradictory*.

    * The universe is finely-tuned for life but life is impossible in it unless magicked into existence.

  493. 493
    John Morales

    This one is funny:

    He is quite powerful

    annejones’s penis-bearing deity needed well over ten billion years to achieve that tenth step, she admits.

    Thus 10. The evolution of Homo Sapiens in the chordate lineage

    (A yet more powerful penis-bearer might have managed it in, I dunno, maybe a few days? ;) )

  494. 494
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    RNA-based viruses straddle the definition of “life”

    That definition of “life” gets even more broken.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prion

  495. 495
    cm's changeable moniker (quaint, if not charming)

    the whole bloody planet is a botched job

    Awww, c’mon now. That radioactive heating of the mantle thing stopped us from turning into the moon.

    It’s K-Ar fine tuning.

    In other news, the local foxes have decided now is the time to mate. Noisy nights are here again.

  496. 496
    ChasCPeterson

    Prions are nothing like “life”.

  497. 497
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    *gives out free swill, grog, and popcornz to today’s posters.*

  498. 498
    John Morales

    Chas, “nothing like”?

    (They do replicate, in the right environment)

  499. 499
    Tony! The Queer Shoop

    annejones:

    - He is quite powerful

    But not powerful enough to prevent puny humans from kicking him out of the classroom. That’s why he allowed the Newtown massacre.
    Fuck your evil god.
    I’d rather take Zeus.

  500. 500
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I’d rather take Zeus.

    Zeus heretic??? I’d rather take *throws 3,000 sided dice*…

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