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Dec 04 2012

It’s a good idea. It’s depressing that it’s necessary.

There’s a funding campaign going on to raise money for DrinkSavvy. It’s a clever idea to address a dismal problem.

What it is is a simple plan to sell drinking straws and cups that contain a material that responds with a color change to the presence of GHB, ketamine, or rohypnol — date rape drugs. I wish I lived in a world where that wasn’t necessary (well, actually, I do live in a world where it isn’t really necessary for my personal safety; I understand though that some of you live in that dangerous world where people might try to drug you to nullify your lack of consent.)

You know, the existence of this product is evidence for the validity of the Schrödinger’s Rapist argument.

424 comments

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  1. 1
    Kevin, 友好火猫 (Friendly Fire Cat)

    You may actually be wrong in your assumption it’s not needed for your safety. Likely not, but still a chance. Men should also be aware of the possibility of date-rape.

  2. 2
    vaiyt

    One more opportunity for the rape apologists to browbeat victims. You got drugged? Well, your fault for not using the magic straw.

  3. 3
    Pteryxx

    One more opportunity for the rape apologists to browbeat victims. You got drugged? Well, your fault for not using the magic straw.

    Sell ‘em to the bars and nightclubs as a condition of liquor licensing. Or does that presume a society that gives a crap?

  4. 4
    Jeremy Shaffer

    To lend some experiential support to Katherine Lorraine at 1, me being a man didn’t stop me from getting dosed one night at a club. To be fair though, I think it wasn’t meant for me but one of the women that were in the group I was with that night. That one of the women ended up just as bad as I, and at about the exact same time, I’m fairly certain my drink just got confused for one others.

  5. 5
    abbeycadabra

    @1: Men, sure.

    Middle-aged wizard-looking tweed-jacketed professors, not so much.

  6. 6
    Steve LaBonne

    It would be a lot more effective if it registered the presence of ethanol, which is BY FAR the most important date-rape drug.

  7. 7
    madtom1999

    I would imagine the glasses would be ineffective after a couple of washes.
    And when the rapist swaps straws…
    It’s a nice idea but I would imagine would only be effective in very very few cases.

  8. 8
    PZ Myers

    Hey, #5, this isn’t about ugly.

    My own safety precaution is that I only drink drinks bought for me by atheists. And we all know that no atheist would ever be the kind of scumbag who would drug people, right?

    Right?

  9. 9
    karendawson

    Steve LaBonne is correct, GHB, ketamine and Rohypnol are used only in a very small minority of date rapes. The vast majority of the time it is Alcohol, either the spiking of drinks or deliberately preying on women perceived to be drunk. There’s a risk of a product like this promoting a false sense of security because there is absolutely no guarantee that the glass on the left is safe.

  10. 10
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Har-har. Too ugly to be raped. Har-har. Totes funny to mock people and rape victims everywhere by making it about looks when it’s actually about depraved violence. Gosh, PZ would be lucky to be date-raped huh?

    Har-har.

    Har-har.

    Fuck off.

  11. 11
    Raging Bee

    It’s a nice idea but I would imagine would only be effective in very very few cases.

    Maybe more than you suspect. A woman could buy her own straws, carry them to pubs in her purse or pocket, and simply whip one out for each drink (and of course share with her friends as needed). And of course pubs could stock them too (with or without being required to as part of the licencing process), and leave them in a basket for anyone to grab (individually wrapped of course).

    The biggest barriers I see would be: a) getting over the idea that drinking an alcoholic beverage out of a straw looks silly; and b) the fact that whipping out a straw would look, for better or worse, like a huge (possibly mood-killing) show of mistrust. I’m betting that (initially at least) guys in certain settings would do everything they could to ridicule and embarrass any woman seen using such a straw (“Aww, c’mon, where’s your sense of fun?” “You look like a little girl!” and so forth), and there would be a sizable cultural pushback against them, and any idea that they might be necessary and appropriate. I can hear the MRAs now: “WAAAAH, those evil bitches are stigmatizing us manly men and pretending we’re all rapists WAAAAH! Why can’t they stop crying and acting all helpless WAAAAH!”

  12. 12
    karendawson

    No, the biggest barrier is that these drugs are not commonly used. It would have an impact in those cases where they ARE used, (for about a month, until word got out that they exist and new drugs were substituted), but in the studies I’ve seen, in most cases where drinks are adulterated with the goal of rape, alcohol is what is used, not expensive and exotic drugs.

  13. 13
    harvardmba

    You know, when I read here that something like this is a “good idea”, it confirms my belief that these PhD types aren’t really too bright.

    Let’s see here …. hmmmm …..

    Perhaps, just perhaps, a person that’s willing to put a date rape drug into a woman’s drink is clever enough to deal with a special straw. You know, like all criminals adapt. I dunno … just maybe when the girl goes to the bathroom and he slips the drug into the drink, he’ll switch the straw too? Yeah, just maybe. You know … REAL tough to deal with a special straw, when you’re already prepared to drug and rape a girl. By all means, the straw would thwart such a cretin.

    This is the same dips**t logic people used after 9/11, about building planes that can’t be flown into buildings. REALLY smart these idiots are.

  14. 14
    Louis

    I see this thread is going to get ugly (uglier?) fast. Hold on. I’m opening a fresh can of sarcasm. Let’s see where this bad boy takes us.

    Louis

  15. 15
    chigau (違う)

    Hi Louis
    Did you know that you can get a MBA degree from Harvard?

  16. 16
    Louis

    Zen,

    Schrodinger’s rapist debunked as madness countless times?

    Oh I do so hate to ask someone to do my homework for me, but please could you link just one of these umpteen debunkings. The best one you know of if possible. Thanks.

    Speaking as an unstable ideologue frothing madly at his keyboard, I promise not to fantasise about anything to do with your anus, consensual or otherwise, for at least…ohhhh…shall we say forever…as suitable compensation for your trouble.

    Thanks

    Louis

  17. 17
    consciousness razor

    You know, when I read here that something like this is a “good idea”, it confirms my belief that these PhD types aren’t really too bright.

    It doesn’t need to be impossible to be more difficult, and making it more difficult is good.

    Would you say it’s not good? Is that how these really bright MBA types think?

  18. 18
    vexorian

    a) getting over the idea that drinking an alcoholic beverage out of a straw looks silly;

    I guess that in the end, you don’t really have to drink through the straw. You can just use it to test.

    and b) the fact that whipping out a straw would look, for better or worse, like a huge (possibly mood-killing) show of mistrust.

    Well, I guess that the people that lose their moods to this will have to adapt. I myself don’t trust any stranger, and I would not expect more trust than that from any person I just met in a bar.

  19. 19
    Louis

    Chigau,

    Hi, how the very devil are you?

    An MBA you say? From Harvard? Well I never. The things these young people come up with nowadays.

    Apropos of absolutely nothing, wouldn’t irrelevant advertising of the possession of such a thing be a little gauche? Certainly not the done thing in my neck of the woods. Not the act of a preux chevalier, some some awful, insecure, social climber might do such a thing one suspects.

    But then what does one expect from the lower orders?

    Louis

    P.S. CAUTION: Tongue may have been in cheek for some parts of this post.

  20. 20
    chigau (違う)

    Louis
    I am reasonably well. I hope you are, too.
    Careful, you wouldn’t want to bite that tongue.

  21. 21
    PZ Myers

    Oh, great. Now the slymepitters are going to be cruising by to taunt and get banned. Nope, you’re not going to get mentioned; just take it as given that slymepit denizens get banned and deleted on sight, same as vi*gara spam and Nigerian get rich quick schemes.

  22. 22
    Argle Bargle

    Like Louis, I’d like Zen to show us one of the debunkings of Schrodinger’s Rapist. As a slymepitter of great renown, he should be able to link to one at the drop of…whatever whiny MRAs drop when they have to show act evidence for their misogynist rants.

  23. 23
    Louis

    But…but…PZ I just had this great get rich quick scheme for selling nigeria to Vi*garans. Or something. The details slipped my mind…

    …if it helps it also proved women are not really people and that Germaine Greer is actually a 7 foot paedophilic space lizard hell bent on castrating all men.

    Louis

  24. 24
    tristanschwartz

    Unfortunately having seen friends fall victim to exactly this type of drugging, I think this is a product the world sorely needs.

    My only concern with this product is the safety of the reagents used. If they line a drink container or straw, they’re obviously going to leach into the drink and wind up in the body. There needs to be some serious scrutiny of the chemicals to make sure they won’t give people cancer or some shit like that.

  25. 25
    Becca Stareyes

    As someone noted upthread, I have the sinking suspicion that it’ll be one more reason to attack the victim of a date rape rather than give her (or him) some peace of mind when she’s out socializing at a bar or nightclub, as many people do.

  26. 26
    whiskytangofoxtrot

    Have there been any independent tests of the indicator substance mentioned in this video? If it works as well as its promoters claim, it could be a very useful tool, but if there’s a significant chance of a false-negative it could do more harm than good by making people think that they can safely leave their drinks unattended.

  27. 27
    Mike

    I would say that denigrating a mistrust of strangers precludes the need for a straw to test anything. That person obviously doesn’t respect my feelings so they would get an instant invitation to leave my presence, either voluntarily or with the aid of several painfully broken bones. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

  28. 28
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    re: alcohol
    Personally, I can control how much intoxicated I get by alcohol. I’m 33 now, I’ve been having drinks for a while now, I know that I won’t lose my control if I have a glass of wine or a cocktail. I can have it and still be in control, safe from people taking advantage of my state.*
    That is not true for drugs that were put in my drink without my knowledge. I can’t control how much of it I can “enjoy” without being in danger of being taken advantage of.

    *No, that doesn’t mean that women who get very drunk, either by their own intent of because somebody kept getting them drinks is at fault.

  29. 29
    skeptifem

    I typically do not trust this variety of technology. There are shit tons of test kits for various drugs (usually used by law enforcement) and they all have a freakishly high false positive rate. Many people have been arrested based on results from color changing drug testing kits when they were carrying oregano or mints. What will set off a positive result with the straws other than the drugs (or inhibit a positive result when the drugs are present)? The biggest problem with this variety of test seems to be the sheer number of substances being tested.

    This feels a lot like those anti-rape tampons that had spikes inside that I read about years ago. Its a desperate attempt to try and land a hit against rape culture, which I completely understand, but I am not convinced that technology will make much of a dent in the problem when its sexual assault of intoxicated women is so socially acceptable currently.

  30. 30
    Gregory Greenwood

    harvardmba @ 13;

    Perhaps, just perhaps, a person that’s willing to put a date rape drug into a woman’s drink is clever enough to deal with a special straw. You know, like all criminals adapt. I dunno … just maybe when the girl goes to the bathroom and he slips the drug into the drink, he’ll switch the straw too? Yeah, just maybe. You know … REAL tough to deal with a special straw, when you’re already prepared to drug and rape a girl. By all means, the straw would thwart such a cretin.

    No single solution is foolproof, but it is still worthwhile to make it more difficult to dose someone’s drink, and thus place more obstacles in the way of date rapists. What is the alternative? Simply throwing our hands up and saying ‘too bad, there’s nothing to be done’?

    A more valid criticism is that brought up by karendawson @ 9 that, in most cases of date rape, the drink is spiked with additional alcohol, rather than more exotic drugs, and so the straw would be ineffective. Or the point made by vaiyt @ 2, that those women who do suffer date rape may be shamed by victim blamers who would say that their failure to use this type of straw makes them somehow responsible for their own rape. Or the more general point that such a straw could lead to a potentially dangerous false sense of security.

    That there are problems with this approach is clear, but that does not justify declaring the attempt to stop date rape to be pointless.

  31. 31
    Anthony K

    Jason Thibeault has a post about a local campaign targeting those who think sloshed=consenting.

  32. 32
    WithinThisMind

    This seems like putting a bandaid over a severed carotid. Sure, it’s technically better than doing nothing…

  33. 33
    consciousness razor

    No single solution is foolproof, but it is still worthwhile to make it more difficult to dose someone’s drink, and thus place more obstacles in the way of date rapists. What is the alternative? Simply throwing our hands up and saying ‘too bad, there’s nothing to be done’?

    It’s probably just bad for business, the straws being more expensive, maybe required by laws/regulations and so on.* We get to compare that to the “cost” of rape.

    *An MBA type would know that sort of thing, but not a PhD type.

  34. 34
    karendawson

    What about alcohol added to your drink without your knowledge? a cocktail you know to contain one shot is very different to a cocktail that SHOULD contain one shot but actually contains five. An excess of a fairly pure alcohol is quite hard to detect if you’re already expecting some alcohol and are not familiar with how the drink normally tastes. Most spiked drinks are spiked with alcohol not GHB or Ketamine. That is not to ignore the cases in which the latter occurs, but to underscore the fact that removing the threat of these exotic drugs will only have a small impact. Especially when the rapists who DO prefer drugs move on to other illicit substances which may be even more dangerous in terms of overdose risk and adverse interactions.

  35. 35
    Rey Fox

    Well, I guess I missed the actual troll post, but if I had to venture a guess, I would say that the debunking of Schrödinger’s Rapist was probably the existence of one non-rapist man. I mean, if the quality of argumentation shown by previous slimepitters is any indication.

  36. 36
    Dutchgirl

    Before I read the post and had only seen the title and picture I thought this straw could detect water impurities for use in third world countries where contaminated water is a major health concern. I wonder if something like that could be made as well.
    As for what it does do, I am not convinced of its effectiveness for the same reasons as others have pointed out. This would not make me feel safer.

  37. 37
    Anthony K

    What about alcohol added to your drink without your knowledge? a cocktail you know to contain one shot is very different to a cocktail that SHOULD contain one shot but actually contains five. An excess of a fairly pure alcohol is quite hard to detect if you’re already expecting some alcohol and are not familiar with how the drink normally tastes.

    I was going to dispute this, but then I’m an (over) experienced drinker. This could very well be the case for many novices.

    It wouldn’t even have to contain five ounces instead of the expected one. Three one-ounce drinks might very well be within someone’s tolerance, whereas three doubles when one is expecting singles might be enough to put someone in a bad state.

  38. 38
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Brownian,

    Think of teenagers experimenting with drinks. You’re already drinking something strong mixed with some overly sweet juice. You might realize that the taste of your next drink is a bit different, but you might not notice that you actually got two or three different kinds of “something strong” mixed in there.

    Yep, I am remembering my puking disaster when I was 18. Or actually, not remembering the disaster itself, just the aftermath and what I was later told.

  39. 39
    Anthony K

    Beatrice,

    You’re absolutely right, and those of us who are no longer 18 would do well to remember what it was like when we were.

    Yep, I am remembering my puking disaster when I was 18.

    Only one?

    Lightweight.

  40. 40
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Brownian,

    Two. And I still sometimes feel guilty about them, years after, so I’m careful to avoid a repeat.
    (guilt issues and fear of losing control)

  41. 41
    Anthony K

    Ah. I apologise for dredging up any unpleasant memories.

  42. 42
    BrianX

    Raging Bee:

    The alternative possibility is to make swizzle sticks that do the same thing and offer the patrons their choice.

  43. 43
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Brownian,

    Oh no, you didn’t. I was just explaining. Nothing especially bad happened, my brain just loves to make me feel guilty about stuff from years ago, even when there’s nothing to feel guilty about.

  44. 44
    microraptor

    The biggest barriers I see would be: a) getting over the idea that drinking an alcoholic beverage out of a straw looks silly; and b) the fact that whipping out a straw would look, for better or worse, like a huge (possibly mood-killing) show of mistrust.

    What if these were awesome looking bendy straws?

  45. 45
    Gregory Greenwood

    consciousness razor @ 32;

    It’s probably just bad for business, the straws being more expensive, maybe required by laws/regulations and so on.* We get to compare that to the “cost” of rape.

    *An MBA type would know that sort of thing, but not a PhD type.

    Good point. I mean, we can’t expect people to lose actual money simply to try to do something so petty as render date rape more difficult. To paraphrase the MRA battlecry – wot about teh bar ownerz?

    On the subject of MRAs, it strikes me as unlikely that Zen will be the only one to stink up the thread. I am waiting for some clueless dood to turn up and mansplain to everyone how straws like this are an assault on the dignity of teh menz, and will stop people having sex and so will lead to the fall of civilisation as we know it.

  46. 46
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Possible problem with straws:
    Don’t people usually drink more when they drink through a straw?

  47. 47
    abbeycadabra

    PZ @8: Hey now, who said anything about *ugly*? <3

  48. 48
    neuroturtle

    I think I would prefer to have this product as the little strips shown on the Kickstarter page. That is something I could quickly swish thorough my drink surreptitiously, so as not to alert everyone around me that I was testing my drink.

    It would also be awesome to have a similar strip that would test alcohol concentration, to deal with the more common instances of spiking. (Granted, these would be terribly misused by a number of the people I went to school with, who would do things like fast on Fridays so they could spend their caloric “budget” on alcohol.)

  49. 49
    Louis

    I googled this legendary debunking of Schrodinger’s Rapist* one of the top results came from AVFM. Am I allowed to regard that as equally indicative of a useful opinion as I do when I google something about debunking evolutionary biology and find something from AIG in the results?

    I mean, sure, it’s crap reasoning, but then I’m a blinkered frothing ideologue feverishly hammering at my keyboard whilst I wait for my White Knight Hyper Sceptic to ride in and link me this debunking. Who will save me from my terrible ideological predicament?

    Louis

    * Who knew an analogy that roughly runs: “rapists don’t have “rapist” tattooed on their foreheads with neon arrows pointing at it and special whooping alarms, therefore some people might be a bit cautious with strangers, take that into account folks” was open to debunking like the existence of Bigfoot…

  50. 50
    PZ Myers

    I am waiting for some clueless dood to turn up and mansplain to everyone how straws like this are an assault on the dignity of teh menz, and will stop people having sex and so will lead to the fall of civilisation as we know it.

    You could look up the post by JohnTheAsshole that Louis just referenced. That’s basically what he said about Schrödinger’s Rapist.

  51. 51
    serena

    To all those who are thinking “This is useless due to all the ways can fail or be circumvented.” – Do you own a padlock? Do you know someone who owns bolt cutters? Your padlock is useless because some criminals carry bolt cutters. Thus, padlocks didn’t need to be invented, and you shouldn’t bother buying one.

    I hope this analogy makes sense; a greater amount of control in a situation is better than a lesser amount.

  52. 52
    PZ Myers

    the fact that whipping out a straw would look, for better or worse, like a huge (possibly mood-killing) show of mistrust.

    Yeah? So? A date-rape drug would kill the mood even better.

  53. 53
    Olav

    Stuff like this is why I am a bit of a hermit and a true hater of bars and nightclubs and other crowded environments.

  54. 54
    ragarth

    Compared to my experience, it seems that the hyper-extremes that people such as Schrodinger’s Rapist engage in and promote might be scare-mongering.

    Is there decent evidence to suggest that the risk of rape is so extreme that someone needs to have two rottweilers, learn martial arts, and rate every man they meet on a rapist scale is more than paranoia?

    If it is indeed scare mongering, then engaging in such a thing isn’t helping the issue. Promoting sane precautions would be far more effective at resolving the issue than spreading paranoia which turns your (likely valid) point into a caricature of itself.

    She states that 1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetime. She gives no source for this data, which immediately opens it to questioning since I don’t know the definition of rape used to produce this, the methodology of establishing the sample pool, etc. For comparison, a woman is twice as likely to be robbed than raped in a given year, and a guy is 3.375 times more likely to be robbed than a woman is to be raped*, yet I don’t see this amount of paranoia over robbery risk in either men or women. I suspect that this 1 in 6 number is artificially generated to inflate the actual risk–most ‘lifetime’ risk values I encounter are scare-monger tactics just to get a bigger risk factor.

    Okay, disclaimer: I’m gay, so know little about the hetero dating scene’s issues, and hence my asking questions about it. I also don’t do bar scenes largely for the same reason (most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy, and due to the historical suppression gay communities have suffered, lack of education and ingrained mistrust make the disease risk higher there than online. I actually have found gay leather bars to be better places than regular gay bars because they are less paranoid places these days). That said, I do take what I consider reasonable precautions such as not letting my drink out of my sight, not drinking too much, letting someone know if I’m going to be out late, etc. So I do believe that taking precautions against predators is a wise idea, by men and women, and that victims of predators are not the ones to blame.

    * http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv09.pdf

  55. 55
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Apropos of absolutely nothing, wouldn’t irrelevant advertising of the possession of such a thing be a little gauche? Certainly not the done thing in my neck of the woods. Not the act of a preux chevalier, some some awful, insecure, social climber might do such a thing one suspects.

    Whatever do you mean, Louis? All.of the cool kids make public knowlege of their formal education level on blogs with a high number of commenters who hold PhDs and whatnot*. I mean, a Master’s! So impressive!

    Get with the times, old man. Now excuse me while I finish up this online degree in txt msg speak.

    *That’s one hell of a sentence right there. I can barely wrap my head around it and I wrote the damned thing.

  56. 56
    Dutchgirl

    serena, I don’t think the padlock analogy is accurate. Padlocks don’t have false positives, don’t leave possibly harmful chemicals in something you will consume, are harder to remove surreptitiously, and they aren’t used to provide physical safety. I take your point, but I think there are other, more effective, ways to protect people from harm.

  57. 57
    serena

    Dutchgirl: Point taken, and surely there are better ways. I just feel its counter-productive to dismiss even flawed innovations as their invention often underlies a specific need. Which I suppose was the point of the original post, heh.

  58. 58
    kristinc, now with added ventilation

    PZ, I think the argument was that being perceived as putting on a big boner-killing show of mistrust might dissuade a woman from using the straw. That would be my concern, anyway. We’re certainly socialized to avoid being perceived as boner-killers.

  59. 59
    Louis

    Audley,

    In the toilets in my undergrad chemistry department a sticker placed on the toilet paper dispenser read:

    “MBAs. Please take one.”*

    Louis

    * Actually, it read “Sociology Degrees. Please take one”, but a) I think more of sociology nowadays than I did then, so don’t think that appropriate and b) the knobhead upthread wasn’t bragging about sociological qualifications.

    P.S. My cousin is responsible for (writing/teaching etc) the MBA course at {Russell Group UK university}. It’s anecdotal I know, but she has very few polite things to say about the attitude and capabilities of a significant percentage of the students on that course. She’s comparatively sweetness and light about other students…

  60. 60
    Anthony K

    most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy

    …but it’s the women who are making unfounded assumptions about the lives they live.

  61. 61
    consciousness razor

    Is there decent evidence to suggest that the risk of rape is so extreme

    1 in 6 women getting raped in their lifetimes is extreme enough. That of course doesn’t include men getting raped.

    But really, if you don’t know the evidence, then shut the fuck up, as you are admitting to blatant cluelessness about the subject. Rape isn’t the sort of thing modern societies would not bother getting “decent” (i.e. sufficient) amounts of evidence for. It’s a fucking crime. It’s hard to figure out how often it happens and is not reported, but that only implies the risk of rape is more extreme than the reported incidents would indicate. It does not make it less extreme.

    that someone needs to have two rottweilers, learn martial arts, and rate every man they meet on a rapist scale is more than paranoia?

    Who says someone “needs” to do that?

    Are you paranoid that people say that? Are you paranoid that your opinions about what women do or do not “need” to do are going to be considered irrelevant? Because they are irrelevant.

    She states that 1 in 6 women will be raped in their lifetime. She gives no source for this data, which immediately opens it to questioning since I don’t know the definition of rape used to produce this, the methodology of establishing the sample pool, etc.

    You don’t know, so you are not in any position criticize it.

    It would’ve been extremely easy to find out. Google “1 in 6 women.” The first several hits are about exactly that.

    If you give a fuck about people getting raped, rather than pretending to be a fucking skeptic, as opposed to an actual fucking skeptic who is capable of looking for evidence. But you apparently don’t give a fuck.

    I suspect that this 1 in 6 number is artificially generated to inflate the actual risk–most ‘lifetime’ risk values I encounter are scare-monger tactics just to get a bigger risk factor.

    You suspect wrong, dipshit. Stop suspecting things and just look at the fucking evidence.

  62. 62
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Louis,
    I still don’t see you advertising your degree! You’re obviously not one of the cool kids.

  63. 63
    Louis

    Re: testing straws = “boner killer acts”:

    Many years ago I was in a bar and I asked a woman if I could buy her a drink, purely friendly, not sexy.* She said that while she was happy to enjoy my company, she didn’t accept drinks from strange men. I was mortally offended for….ooooh….microseconds. Then I thought about it.

    I (jocularly) told her to get a round in and we laughed and had a wonderful chat and a bit of a dance. It was quite nice really. Parted company on good terms and she’s still a friend of mine and my wife’s now.

    Strange it’s almost like women are people or something, good for more than just being an ambulatory willy warmer…no…no. That couldn’t be it. {Barfing Smiley}

    Louis

    P.S. Since on another thread we were treated to “Hey, all women might not react like X to situation Y” from Vacula, if a woman I was chatting up (it happens rarely, poly relationships being what they are) whipped out a tester straw I’d be impressed. That, to poach unashamedly from Douglas Adams, is a woman who really knows where her towel is. Enthusiastic consent, folks: the one and only truly platinum coated gold plated diamond encrusted rhodium boulder standard worth bothering with.

    * I do this occasionally with men and women. She seemed like a laugh, had a wicked glint in her eye, was not obviously going to take offence at a non-sex related request, and I like meeting “randoms” in bars. Randoms always lead to the best nights, you never know where or how it will end. Some of my best friends started life as “randoms”

  64. 64
    Louis

    Audley,

    I never understood what it takes to be cool. I have a hard enough time keeping up with my expectations for me, let alone other people’s and society’s. Cool seems like a lot of work.

    Oh, and it’s “degrees“. You know, plural. I mean, I wouldn’t want to avoid the obvious joke entirely! ;-)

    Louis

  65. 65
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Is there a term specifically for a gay man’s mansplaining behavior? I mean, there’s gotta be something to point out how ridiculous “hey straight ladies, I’mma let you finish, but as a gay man I am an expert in risk avoidance. Except when it comes to straight people dating, but my ill informed opinion is still more important than your real life experience” is.

  66. 66
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    Pffft, degrees.

  67. 67
    Gregory Greenwood

    You could look up the post by JohnTheAsshole that Louis just referenced. That’s basically what he said about Schrödinger’s Rapist.

    Reading anything penned by that misogynistic arsehat JohntheOther (or indeed anyone who posts on a voice for idiots) leaves me with an overwhelming desire to punch something.

    Apparently, I will not even need to leave this thread to see MRA rape apologia in action, given that ragarth @ 53 seems to be doing a fine line in mansplaining how women are just being paranoid and are scaremongering about all this rape business.

    I particularly like the part where ragarth essentially says “I know next to nothing about these issues, but I do know that the women who have had to endure rape culture their whole lives are wrong about the risks and things like Schrödinger’s Rapist – because bitchez be paranoid.”

  68. 68
    Anthony K

    I’m still waiting on the CDC report on the proportion of gay men in bars who are ‘slimy’.

    I’m not taking ragarth’s word for it. What the fuck does he know about gay men in bars?

  69. 69
    ragarth

    @Audley Z. Darkheart (liar, scoundrel, college dropout)

    “I’m ignorant, this is a question, help me understand it”

    is different from

    “I’m ignorant, so here’s my opinion as fact.”

    Providing evidence has a multiplicative effect, it tends to get passed around. Providing ad hominems gets you ignored.

  70. 70
    ragarth

    @Brownian

    Hey, if slimy is your thing, I won’t knock it. To each their own. :-)

  71. 71
    consciousness razor

    “I’m ignorant, this is a question, help me understand it”

    is different from

    “I’m ignorant, so here’s my opinion as fact.”

    Was that strawmanning shit about “paranoia” supposed to be a fucking question, an opinion, or a fact? Or just ignorant fucking assumptions?

  72. 72
    Gregory Greenwood

    ragarth @ 68;

    “I’m ignorant, this is a question, help me understand it”

    is different from

    “I’m ignorant, so here’s my opinion as fact.”

    Providing evidence has a multiplicative effect, it tends to get passed around. Providing ad hominems gets you ignored.

    We have seen an awful lot of MRAs turn up here to ‘just ask questions’ – claiming that they are simply innocently trying to enhance their understanding – only for them to quickly segue into full on misogynistic ranting.

    Your post’s ‘questions’ are suspicious in this regard to say the least, with your repeated accusations of ‘scaremongering’, ‘paranoia’ and this little gem;

    Is there decent evidence to suggest that the risk of rape is so extreme that someone needs to have two rottweilers, learn martial arts, and rate every man they meet on a rapist scale is more than paranoia?

    All you have written so far points very strongly to the conclusion that you are just another clueless dood all too eager to tell women how they should live their lives and how bad they supposedly are at evaluating risk.

    Has it occurred to you that the women who have to deal with rape culture every day of their lives maybe, just maybe, are better judges of the risks they face than you are?

  73. 73
    Anthony K

    Hey, if slimy is your thing, I won’t knock it. To each their own.

    So, that’s a big fucking fat ‘No’ on having any evidence for this claim.

    Fuck off.

  74. 74
    Louis

    Where is my SlymePrince with his big, fat, throbbing link to a glorious debunking of Schrodinger’s Rapist? Surely he cannot be far away…

    Louis

    P.S.

    Has it occurred to you that the women who have to deal with rape culture every day of their lives maybe, just maybe, are better judges of the risks they face than you are?

    Gregory, well it would occur to us all, if women were, you know, people or something.

  75. 75
    Louis

    Audley,

    How DARE you mock my very exciting qualifications from many fine institutions!

    Handbags at dawn. I demand at least one cuddle of Teh DarkInfant before we duel. Should I expire I wish to have experienced Cyoot once in my life.

    Louis

  76. 76
    ragarth

    @Gregory Greenwood

    Thank you for the more civil response.

    I read pharyngula for what PZ in all his bearded glory has to say, I generally don’t read the replies because most of the time it doesn’t interest me, and the large volume makes following most conversations impossible. I only really hear about the slimepit crap when the mighty Myers makes a post about it. I skim such things and move on.

    I agree with the feminist philosophy; women need better rights, women need social equality. The equality movement for women didn’t go far enough, the job still has to go on. I just fear that if the rape culture doesn’t exist, or is less horrific than it is being made out to be, then fighting it will have a negative impact on things like breaking the glass ceiling, etc.

    I’m sorry if my OP struck close to what MRA’s do (btw, what’s an MRA?), I posed the question honestly and am truly interested in evidence. The only evidence of its existence that I have thus far are individual accounts (which aren’t evidence, otherwise they’d work for miracles too), and the 1 in 6 statistic, which, like I said before, raises red flags for me as a potential massaging of the actual data.

    As per my ‘little gem’, the link PZ Myers gives to the Schrodinger’s Rapist guest blog post has those details in it. Since they don’t actually deal with establishing Schrodinger’s credility, they are either there as an example or as personal testimony that the issue is so bad that she has to do that.

  77. 77
    ragarth

    @consciousness razor

    ‘If’ generally doesn’t precede stated facts. More often the word is used in phrasing syllogisms or questions. Reading comprehension is your friend.

    To answer the question, they were posed as part of a question. The only facts and opinions I stated were those in the last two paragraphs, and the comparator to my personal life in the first sentence.

  78. 78
    Alexandra (née Audley)

    I don’t normally do this, but I’m tired and crotchety.

    Providing ad hominems gets you ignored.

    1) Nice tone trolling.
    2) Nice misuse of ‘ad hom’. Saying your argument is dumb ≠ you’re dumb, so your argument is wrong.
    3) Nice job not ignoring me4) Trying to teach me a lesson! Oooooooo, I’m so chastised (or something).

    (Oh wait, I do normally do this, it’s just been so long.)

    Now, let’s look at what you said:

    Compared to my experience, it seems that the hyper-extremes that people such as Schrodinger’s Rapist engage in and promote might be scare-mongering.

    Is there decent evidence to suggest that the risk of rape is so extreme that someone needs to have two rottweilers, learn martial arts, and rate every man they meet on a rapist scale is more than paranoia?

    You assume right off the bat that the threat of rape is scare mongering and paranoia, regardless of what the stats (that are hella easy to look up!) say. And now you’re pretending that you’re not playing the hyperskeptical devils advocate, even though you readily admit that you have no idea what women go through while out at the bar.

    Charming.

  79. 79
    consciousness razor

    If’ generally doesn’t precede stated facts. More often the word is used in phrasing syllogisms or questions. Reading comprehension is your friend.

    To answer the question, they were posed as part of a question. The only facts and opinions I stated were those in the last two paragraphs, and the comparator to my personal life in the first sentence.

    This is not a question, and it isn’t stated as a conditional with an “if”:

    For comparison, a woman is twice as likely to be robbed than raped in a given year, and a guy is 3.375 times more likely to be robbed than a woman is to be raped*, yet I don’t see this amount of paranoia over robbery risk in either men or women. [my emphasis]

    What amount of paranoia do you see? Is there decent evidence of it? Where do you see it? What’s your methodology? How do we know you’re not inflating these numbers, whatever they are?

    Hop to it. Or just get a fucking grip and realize you were talking out of your ass the whole fucking time.

  80. 80
    ragarth

    @consciousness razor

    Sometimes paranoia is justified. Soldiers in war zones have adequate reason to point guns at things that move, for instance. I apologize if you’re reading more into what I typed than what I actually said. As per evidence, I’m asking for it–requesting evidence in response to a request for evidence is just silly.

    As per inflating the figures and what not. I provided a link to my source for those statistics, if you suspect me of inflating the figures, then by all means check my source.

    To help you out with that, because I believe that all decent ideas deserve being challenged, page 5: divide the gender values given for robbery by the value given for female rape/sexual assault.

    “Hop to it. Or just get a fucking grip and realize you were talking out of your ass the whole fucking time.”

    Statements like this are why I didn’t read your first response to me. I read your first line in that post, figured you were either trolling me or such a stuck up snob that anything you said wouldn’t be worth wasting my time on. Truth be told, I’m a bit sorry I wasted my time thinking that your post #70 might actually be honest. Don’t expect another response from me for you, this one is only a courtesy to end our conversation.

  81. 81
    Gregory Greenwood

    ragarth @ 75;

    Thank you for the more civil response.

    ‘Civility’ is an insignificant thing set against content.

    I read pharyngula for what PZ in all his bearded glory has to say, I generally don’t read the replies because most of the time it doesn’t interest me, and the large volume makes following most conversations impossible. I only really hear about the slimepit crap when the mighty Myers makes a post about it. I skim such things and move on.

    Then I recommend lurking more and reading more of the comments. A person can learn a great deal by doing that, including developing a greater understanding of the very issues that you admitted @ 53 that you had only a scant grasp of.

    I agree with the feminist philosophy; women need better rights, women need social equality. The equality movement for women didn’t go far enough, the job still has to go on. I just fear that if the rape culture doesn’t exist, or is less horrific than it is being made out to be, then fighting it will have a negative impact on things like breaking the glass ceiling, etc.

    The existence of rape culture is not in doubt. As an example, in the UK the rape conviction rate in the 2007/08 year was only 6.5%, and some estimates suggest that 95% of all rapes go unreported, in no small part because victims feel justifiable fear that they will not be taken seriously.

    Also, the idea that one must choose between opposing rape culture and dismantling the glass ceiling is a false dichotomy. Both are expressions of our patriarchal culture, and it is by changing those attitudes that treat women as lesser than men that we can address rape culture and other forms of socially enabled misogyny such as employment, promotion and wage inequality.

    I’m sorry if my OP struck close to what MRA’s do (btw, what’s an MRA?)

    MRA stands for ‘men’s rights activist’ – it refers to a certain type of misogynist who tries to promote the idea that, far from being discriminatory against women, society is actually some kind of stealth matriarchy that oppresses men. They are noted for their reactionary misogyny and immunity to evidence and reason.

    The only evidence of its existence that I have thus far are individual accounts (which aren’t evidence, otherwise they’d work for miracles too), and the 1 in 6 statistic, which, like I said before, raises red flags for me as a potential massaging of the actual data.

    The website that provides the 1 in 6 statsitic, and the National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control & Prevention document Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey that is the specific document cited.

    As per my ‘little gem’, the link PZ Myers gives to the Schrodinger’s Rapist guest blog post has those details in it. Since they don’t actually deal with establishing Schrodinger’s credility, they are either there as an example or as personal testimony that the issue is so bad that she has to do that.

    Don’t you think that this might be a somewhat unfair characterisation of the introductory line form the link;

    Phaedra Starling is the pen name of a romance novelist and licensed private investigator living in small New York City apartment with two large dogs. She practices Brazilian jiu-jitsu and makes world-class apricot muffins.

    So you are claiming that you didn’t concoct the form of words you used @ 53 to mock women’s fear of rape? And what about the crack about ‘paranoia’ at the end? You don’t think that this was a prejudicial attitude to adopt when by your own admission you don’t understand the issues?

  82. 82
    John Morales

    ragarth:

    Sometimes paranoia is justified.

    Then it isn’t paranoia.

    I apologize if you’re reading more into what I typed than what I actually said.

    Better you apologised for typing other than what you actually meant.

    (Bah)

  83. 83
    consciousness razor

    As per evidence, I’m asking for it

    You know how to get it. I told you how to get it. Why are you still “asking”? If you’re interested and still don’t know, you could read my comment #60 to find out one very simple way of doing it.

    –requesting evidence in response to a request for evidence is just silly.

    Not if it’s about evidence for entirely different claims, which it is.

    As per inflating the figures and what not. I provided a link to my source for those statistics, if you suspect me of inflating the figures, then by all means check my source.

    Reading comprehension. I didn’t say anything about the figures you cited, just your premise that women are overly paranoid about being raped, as if you have any fucking idea what you’re talking about. I even put it in bold.

    Statements like this are why I didn’t read your first response to me. I read your first line in that post, figured you were either trolling me or such a stuck up snob that anything you said wouldn’t be worth wasting my time on.

    #60 described how to get the evidence you were so sincerely asking for, so obviously you reached the wrong conclusion. (You seem to have a problem with that.) Have you still not read it?

    Will we get more JAQing off from you, or is this when we start talking about tone? (Personally, I don’t like the tone of saying women are too paranoid about getting raped.)

    Don’t expect another response from me for you, this one is only a courtesy to end our conversation.

    Great. Go fuck yourself, you dishonest shit.

  84. 84
    Thomathy, Gay Where it Counts

    Ragarth, ew. Gay men like you are …ew.

  85. 85
    John Morales

    [OT]

    ‘per’ does not mean what ragarth apparently thinks it means.

    (Such malapropisms are a fairly reliable (but risible) indicator of someone attempting to project erudition)

  86. 86
    vaiyt

    ragarth:

    I just fear that if the rape culture doesn’t exist, or is less horrific than it is being made out to be, then fighting it will have a negative impact on things like breaking the glass ceiling, etc.

    “What about the menz?” with a fresh coat of JAQ paint. Looks innocent, but still smells awful.

    Why don’t you stop and wonder why do you find the evidence so hard to believe?

  87. 87
    Emrysmyrddin

    Aw fuck. This thread’s gonna be fun. Fun like pulling-fingernails-fun.

  88. 88
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    For comparison, a woman is twice as likely to be robbed than raped in a given year, and a guy is 3.375 times more likely to be robbed than a woman is to be raped*, yet I don’t see this amount of paranoia over robbery risk in either men or women.

    Yeah, and you’re about 5000 times as likely to get a bruise than breaking your leg, so what’s the point?
    Although robbery is defined by a threat, it is about fucking property. Do you understand the difference between losing money and being raped?

  89. 89
    ragarth

    @Gregory Greenwood

    Let me rephrase my thank you to say, “Thank you for not assuming I’m a trolling ass, I appreciate that.” Thanking good people happens too rarely.

    As per learning from lurking, you’re the only person thus far I’ve gained anything from by posting in this thread. I’m willing to sort rubble for diamonds, but not hold my breath and dive into the overflow tank of a sewage treatment plant for one. I only posted this one time because I figured the best way to the data would be to ask those who have it.

    I also didn’t say you had to choose between fighting rape culture and breaking the glass ceiling, but to rephrase my point, if rape culture doesn’t exist, then it has a negative impact upon fighting other forms of inequality, largely in terms of public image. If it does exist, then it is worth fighting.

    I should have made the connection between MRA and men’s rights activist. I feel like an idiot now.

    Would it help if I apologize for any perceived insult you might have regarding this sensitive issue? I didn’t mean insult, harm, or to make any ‘cracks.’ So any perceptions of such are poor choices in wording on my part, and the connotations you derived from them were not intended.

    While I agree with you that only a 6.5% conviction rate is atrocious, it goes against reasoning to think that only 6.5% of claims are false, this doesn’t show a rape culture, but rather bigotry on the part of UK judges. Misogyny and victim blaming can exist with a victim rate that is not far off from the norm for crime.

    Your second source has a lot more bite to it, and is backed by the BJS, a primary source. It has issues however, the data is from 1998, this falls into the violent 90′s of the US, a period of time when *all* forms of violent crime were up. If you look at this chart:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm

    You’ll see that from 1998 to 2009 the rate of rape victimization dropped to 1/3 its previous level over a steady trend. You’ll also note that if we assume *all* rape is done to women, and all other violent crime is spread equally across both sexes, that the incidence of rape is still below that of all other violent crimes except murder.

    This leaves the 95% figure as your best line of evidence, and it jives with what I know about victim blaming and the shame of being a victim. It doesn’t prove a rape culture, however. It shows that cultural issues of victim blaming and shame still exist, and these should be combated.

    Rape culture, as defined by Wikipedia (shoot me if you’re a college professor) is “a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.”

    You’ve shown positively that US culture excuses rape, but I’ve seen nothing that shows that it is common, or really accepted in society. Victim blaming can exist while the act itself is still frowned upon. I will accept that there *is* a rape culture on many college campuses, and PZ Myers has shown that such exist in other highly specialized locals such as gaming conventions, but these cultures do not translate to the larger culture where the vast majority of women targeted by this meme live.

    I’ll reiterate, I’m not saying that people shouldn’t take precautions, getting the word out there of what people need to do to not become victims is extremely important. Everyone who goes on dates, or goes to bars should follow basic precautions, but unless a rape culture actually does exist, the espousing of it does more harm than good.

    Rather (if we assume rape culture doesn’t exist for the purposes of this *one* statement), the message would be more effective if it kept to the truth of the matter, thereby being more immune to being blown off as a fairy tale. If people see a claim as being patently false, they’re more likely to ignore the prescriptions coming along with that claim, such as safe dating practices.

  90. 90
    kate_waters: Not Your Father's Oldsmobile.

    I’m always mystified when women’s lived experience is dismissed by some men as invalid until it’s sufficiently proved.

    How in the hell can anyone deny rape culture in the face of overwhelming numbers of women relating their experiences with it every single day? Is it misogyny or simply ego? Is it the fact that since they have no experience with it it’s completely outside the realm of possibility? Is it the old “wimmins is crazy” chestnut?

    It also makes me sick that ragarth would even think to equate rape with robbery. I hate that comparison so much. Of course people don’t take the same precautions against getting robbed as women do against being raped. They are not even in the same ballpark when it comes to how a crime impacts you and your life.

    At the very best, if you’re robbed at least no one will ever cross examine you about your previous sexual history, what you were wearing, where you were, whether you were drinking or using drugs, what you do for a living, etc. in order to see whether or not you DESERVED to be robbed.

    Fuck. I could go on for years about how terrible rape is, but I don’t think it much matters in ragarth’s case. For them rape culture is nothing more than an intellectual exercise. It’s an interesting problem to discuss as if victims of rape and those oppressed by rape culture were just one side of a meaningless, dry debate.

    Blech.

  91. 91
    Nepenthe

    ragarth, sweety, do you see the link in the sidebar marked “social justice link roundup”? It might help you sort out all your oh so difficult questions.

    Now fuck off.

  92. 92
    Valde

    I would rather be a guy and get robbed, than a woman who gets robbed, and then raped (which btw, seems to be fairly common)

    So fuck you ragarth.

  93. 93
    vaiyt

    if rape culture doesn’t exist,

    If.

  94. 94
    ragarth

    @kate_waters

    Two points: If you’re on this blog, you dismiss personal testimony all the time. You should be familiar with the concept of observation bias. Just because a topic is a terrible thing doesn’t mean observation bias can’t exist within it.

    Further, if I felt it wasn’t within the realm of possibility, or even sufficiently far outside the realm as to be unlikely, I wouldn’t be seeking information regarding it. The fact that I’m asking questions should be evidence that its an issue that I feel might exist, I just don’t have the evidence yet myself to believe it.

    Rape is a horrible crime, and it will always be a horrible crime until its not committed at all (at which point its absence will be a victory), but for a rape culture to exist requires more than rape to exist, and as I stated before, claiming that it does exist when it doesn’t hurts the effort to prevent the rapes that do occur and to help the plight of women inequality.

  95. 95
    ragarth

    @Nepenthe

    No, I don’t have a social justice link roundup, would you mind copying me the page it links to?

  96. 96
    mythbri

    @ragarth #93

    Are you actually saying that attempting to fight against rape culture promotes rape culture?

    You’re “skeptical” of the 1 in 6 number.

    When I was in college, I lived in an apartment with four other women. Two of those women were raped during the time that we lived together. One of them reported. Her rapist was actually convicted of sexual assault and served two years in prison. And then we saw him on the news a couple years later. He had been hired by a massage therapy place and was arrested for molesting several of his female clients. The owner of the establishment was interviewed and questioned about the rapist’s record. The owner said “I didn’t think that it was so serious.”

    My other room-mate did not report her rape. She fell into a depression and dropped out of school. I don’t know where she is or how she’s doing.

    My grandmother was raped repeatedly by her first husband. She was sexually harassed by her neighbor until my dad and uncles had a “friendly chat” with him about it.

    My cousin was coerced into having sex when she was 14 years old. He was 20. That’s statutory rape.

    One of my dear friends was molested as a child, and raped and physically and emotionally abused by an intimate partner when she was in college.

    It’s not often that I run into women who don’t have stories like this.

    http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

  97. 97
    Nepenthe

    Only because I’m feeling really fucking generous today: Social justice link roundup

  98. 98
    John Morales

    [meta]

    ragarth:

    If you’re on this blog, you dismiss personal testimony all the time.

    Such foolishness!

    Apart from being patently false (should I perforce dismiss your testimony that you’re merely JAQing?), this declaration is foolish: claims should be judged on their merits and belief apportioned according to its warrant.

    Bah.

  99. 99
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    The timing of ragarth’s appearance is suspect. Last night justin(e) vacuous of Slymepit fame was here and was banhammered when PZ found its misogynic spewings this morning. Today, another MRA troll has appeared chiding PZ for not being open minded, and for talking about social justice issues. And then came ragarth. Since the Slymepit and telling the truth are strangers, ragarth and everything it says is considered with extreme skepticism by me. And apparently, everybody with a working mind…

  100. 100
    vaiyt

    ragarth’s case is far too typical. Clueless dood who claims to want to help women, but hand-wrings and protests and balks at any piece of data that might indicate there’s a systemic problem.

  101. 101
    Anthony K

    I still want to know why it’s hunky-dory for ragarth to modify his behaviour based on his perception that “most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy”, but women need to back up their claim that they cannot immediately identify whether or not a man who gives them unsolicited, unwanted attention is merely annoying or actually dangerous with reams of objective data.

  102. 102
    Inaji

    Predator Redux:
    https://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/24/predator-redux/

    The undetected rapists overwhelmingly use minimal or no force, rely mostly on alcohol and rape their acquaintances. They create situations where the culture will protect them by making excuses for them and questioning or denying their victims. Incarcerated rapists, I think, are just the ones who use the tactics that society is more willing to recognize as rape and less willing to make excuses for.

    It is the modus operandi that keeps the undetected rapist undetected: they correctly identify a methodology that will put them under the protection of the rape culture. They are unlikely to be convicted because the story doesn’t fit the script. In fact, they are unlikely to be arrested because the story doesn’t lead to easy convictions. In fact, they are unlikely to be reported because rape survivors know that the tactics these men use leave them with little real recourse. In fact, these rapists may put the victim in a position where she is so intoxicated or terrified or just isolated and defeated that she never even says “no,” and because the culture overwhelmingly refuses to call these tactics what they are, even the victims themselves may be unable to call it rape for a very long time afterward, if ever.

    Lisak describes the characteristics of their methodology:

    In the course of 20 years of interviewing these undetected rapists, in both research and forensic settings, it has been possible for me to distill some of the common characteristics of the modus operandi of these sex offenders. These undetected rapists:
    • are extremely adept at identifying “likely” victims, and testing prospective victims’ boundaries;
    • plan and premeditate their attacks, using sophisticated strategies to groom their victims for attack, and to isolate them physically;
    • use “instrumental” not gratuitous violence; they exhibit strong impulse
    control and use only as much violence as is needed to terrify and coerce their victims into submission;
    • use psychological weapons – power, control, manipulation, and threats – backed up by physical force, and almost never resort to weapons such as knives or guns;
    • use alcohol deliberately to render victims more vulnerable to attack, or completely unconscious.

    Prevention efforts geared toward persuading men not to rape are very unlikely to be effective. Lessons can be drawn from many decades of experience in sex offender treatment, which have demonstrated that it is extremely difficult to change the behavior of a serial predator even when you incarcerate him and subject him to an intensive, multi-year program. Rather than focusing prevention efforts on the rapists, it would seem far more effective to focus those efforts on the far more numerous bystanders – men and women who are part of the social and cultural milieu in which rapes are spawned and who can be mobilized to identify perpetrators and intervene in high-risk situations.

  103. 103
    ragarth

    @Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    If you feel my counter-arguments are insufficient, I invite you to point out my logical fallacies, or provide your own evidence. I have an open mind, I am more than willing to let the evidence of a matter sway my opinion.

    You don’t need to trust me to make your case–there’s evidence that has proven the issue true to you, show me the courtesy of providing it.

  104. 104
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    ragarth’s case is far too typical. Clueless dood who claims to want to help women, but hand-wrings and protests and balks at any piece of data that might indicate there’s a systemic problem.

    Typical Slymepit tactic. The eau-de-MRA emanates from its concern….

  105. 105
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I have an open mind, I am more than willing to let the evidence of a matter sway my opinion.

    LIAR. You ignored the evidence presented to you. You show you aren’t a denizen of the slymepit sockpuppeting here. Welcome to extreme skepticism being directed your way, not the way you want to be directed….

  106. 106
    ragarth

    @Brownian

    I never said it was “hunky-dory for [me] to modify his behaviour based on his perception that “most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy”, but women need to back up their claim that they cannot immediately identify whether or not a man who gives them unsolicited, unwanted attention is merely annoying or actually dangerous with reams of objective data.”

    I’ve said in almost every post I’ve made that safe dating practices should be practiced by everyone, but that promoting a false claim that inaccurately reflects a situation harms attempts to resolve that situation.

  107. 107
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Oh, and ragarth, you haven’t shown you are worthy of courtesy by accepting the conclusive evidence presented to you by others. Unless you are willing to accept evidence, you can’t demand it, nor are you worth of being polite to.

  108. 108
    consciousness razor

    I still want to know why it’s hunky-dory for ragarth to modify his behaviour based on his perception that “most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy”, but women need to back up their claim that they cannot immediately identify whether or not a man who gives them unsolicited, unwanted attention is merely annoying or actually dangerous with reams of objective data.

    Well, that’s because rape culture is a fairy tale (or we should assume it is for rhetorical purposes, even if it exists); but the sliminess of gay guys in bars is an observation from quantum field theory.

  109. 109
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I’ve said in almost every post I’ve made that safe dating practices should be practiced by everyone, but that promoting a false claim that inaccurately reflects a situation harms attempts to resolve that situation.

    Except you haven’t shown, except by extreme skepticism, that the claim is false. Do so, as the null hypothesis is that the claim is true. You need to present your evidence….

  110. 110
    ragarth

    @John Morales

    What’s JAQing?

    Also, personal testimony *is* dismissed frequently on this blog. Are you telling me that you don’t dismiss people who claim to have experienced miracles? I assume such people are telling the truth, but that is not evidence for their claim because observation bias explains how such claims can exist and be true.

  111. 111
    mythbri

    @ragarth #104

    I notice that you’re only responding to people who are rude to you, other than Gregory (who is rarely rude to anyone, so don’t feel special). This is in spite of your claims that you don’t respond to people who are rude to you.

    What does this mean (quoted below)?

    safe dating practices should be practiced by everyone

    What are “safe dating practices” and what do you think of people who don’t practice them? Are they at fault for anything that might have been done to them as a result of failing to comply with “safe dating practices”?

    And what about this (quoted below)?

    promoting a false claim that inaccurately reflects a situation harms attempts to resolve that situation

    Your refusal to accept statistical evidence does not render claims based on that evidence “false”.

  112. 112
    Anthony K

    I never said it was “hunky-dory for [me] to modify his behaviour based on his perception that “most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy

    Clearly you did: “I also don’t do bar scenes largely for the same reason (most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy…”

    So you do modify your behaviour based on your general perception. That’s indisputable.

    So do women. That’s also indisputable.

    but women need to back up their claim that they cannot immediately identify whether or not a man who gives them unsolicited, unwanted attention is merely annoying or actually dangerous with reams of objective data.”

    But the italicised part is what Schrödinger’s Rapist is about. The not knowing.

    What you don’t understand is that Schrödinger’s Rapist isn’t aimed at women. It’s not convincing them of anything. It’s describing what many women already do. It’s aimed at men, why they should understand why women may not treat their unwanted advances with the desired fanfare.

    Your bullshit about supposed inaccuracy is just that—bullshit.

  113. 113
    Anthony K

    Also, personal testimony *is* dismissed frequently on this blog.

    But you obviously don’t dismiss your own when it comes to how you feel about gay (non-leather) bars.

    So why are you insisting that women don’t have the same right to be unsure about someone’s motives?

  114. 114
    Inaji

    Meet The Predators

    I’m directing this to men who inhabit het-identified social spaces, and I’m not really limiting it more than that. Women are already doing what they can to prevent rape; brokering a peace with the fear is part of their lives that we can never fully understand. We’re the ones who are not doing our jobs.

    Here’s what we need to do. We need to spot the rapists, and we need to shut down the social structures that give them a license to operate. They are in the population, among us. They have an average of six victims, women that they know, and therefore likely some women you know. They use force sometimes, but mostly they use intoxicants. They don’t accidentally end up in a room with a woman too drunk or high to consent or resist; they plan on getting there and that’s where they end up.

    Listen. The women you know will tell you when the men they thought they could trust assaulted them; if and only if they know you won’t stonewall, deny, blame or judge. Let them tell you that they got drunk, and woke up with your buddy on top of them. Listen. Don’t defend that guy. That guy is more likely than not a recidivist. He has probably done it before. He will probably do it again.

    Change the culture. To rape again and again, these men need silence. They need to know that the right combination of factors — alcohol and sex shame, mostly — will keep their victims quiet. Otherwise, they would be identified earlier and have a harder time finding victims. The women in your life need to be able to talk frankly about sexual assault. They need to be able to tell you, and they need to know that they can tell you, and not be stonewalled, denied, blamed or judged.

    Listen. The men in your lives will tell you what they do. As long as the R word doesn’t get attached, rapists do self-report. The guy who says he sees a woman too drunk to know where she is as an opportunity is not joking. He’s telling you how he sees it. The guy who says, “bros before hos”, is asking you to make a pact.

    The Pact. The social structure that allows the predators to hide in plain sight, to sit at the bar at the same table with everyone, take a target home, rape her, and stay in the same social circle because she can’t or won’t tell anyone, or because nobody does anything if she does. The pact to make excuses, to look for mitigation, to patch things over — to believe that what happens to our friends — what our friends do to our friends — is not “rape-rape”.

    Change the culture. We are not going to pull six or ten or twelve million men out of the U.S. population over any short period, so if we are going to put a dent in the prevalence of rape, we need to change the environment that the rapist operates in. Choose not to be part of a rape-supportive environment. Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk.

  115. 115
    dawnbyrnes

    I rarely post here though I lurk a lot.

    I’m a female high-functioning autistic with zero self-defence skills.

    Imagine living life knowing that you’ve got a 1 in 4 chance (Aussie statistics, IIRC) of being raped and Buckley’s chance of stopping it from happening were you to be attacked.

    Imagine being scared of being out after dark, of travelling on public transport at night, of wearing skirts because they’re easier access, of strange men you encounter in a deserted or empty place, of drinking alcohol in public, of a man raising his voice or getting into your personal space…

    Imagine being haptophobic (fearful of being touched) because you watched your mother getting beaten on a regular basis and knowing you lack self-defence skills.

    So screw you, ragarth and MRA friends, because you know *nothing*.

  116. 116
    Socio-gen, something something...

    ragarth:

    Two points: If you’re on this blog, you dismiss personal testimony all the time. You should be familiar with the concept of observation bias. Just because a topic is a terrible thing doesn’t mean observation bias can’t exist within it.

    A single anecdote? Worth dismissing because a single instance cannot be generalized.

    However, when you have hundreds, thousands, (or, in the case of rape culture, hundreds of thousands) of “anecdotes” from women in a wide cross-section of age, location, race, etc. which show a consistent and generalizable pattern… that’s a whole other kettle of fish. In sociology, we call it qualitative data.

  117. 117
    Valde

    Out of curisoity, are MRA’s also anti-choice?

    I was also wondering if an MRA would force a woman to carry a rape pregnancy to term, Mourdock style, but then I reaalized that MRAS deny the existence of rape, or maybe its only men who are victims of rape? right?

  118. 118
    Inaji

    Also, personal testimony *is* dismissed frequently on this blog.

    Yes, it is, when it’s one person claiming something such as “I’ve had prayers answered by god!”

    Quite a lot of people who have been raped have been reading your reeking bullshit. They have been attempting to tell you things which actually matter when it comes to rape culture and being raped. You’re dismissing all of it, hanging desperately to hollers of “anecdote!”.

    What you’re missing (along with every other fucking point), is that when thousands upon thousands upon thousands of women can relate similar accounts, down to small details, that’s no longer a little ol’ anecdote sitting on its lonesome. That’s data.

  119. 119
    Suido

    Ragarth’s first trick was not performing a simple internet search to check some statistics. Executed flawlessly! Give the man a pointy douchehat!

    Ragarth’s second trick was calling women paranoid about rape because he didn’t believe the statistics he didn’t check. Executed flawlessly! Give the man a flowing doucherobe!

    Ragarth’s third trick was reacting like a spoilt brat when his opinions were treated like uninformed crap. Executed flawlessly! Give the man some sturdy doucheboots!

    Ragarth’s fourth trick was assuming everyone was at his beck and call, asking for links despite being told where the links could be found. The comment indicating where the links might be found even included some helpful key words which would work in the googly machine. Executed flawlessly! Give the man a whizzbang douchewand!

    Oh, look, Ragarth’s perfectly dressed up to douchemagic away all the problems in the world for the stupid, misguided, paranoid women who don’t understand reality. Lucky there was a manly douchemagician here to save the day!

  120. 120
    Inaji

    bobo:

    or maybe its only men who are victims of rape? right?

    MRAs are very hot on the notion that most cases of rape are false allegations perpetrated by the evil wimminz to take those manly menz down.

  121. 121
    ragarth

    @Caine, Fleur du mal

    That lead to some very convincing data. Not the link itself, but the researcher it referred to, David Lisak.

    His work is proof positive of a rape culture on college campuses (and co-research shows its true in the navy as well), the question now is if his findings are translatable to the larger population.

    The problem is the data I’m looking at is entirely from 2000 college students, and college students are not a representative sample of the larger US population.

    I’ll keep looking to see if he’s done wider research on the general populace, or if there’s research showing that sexual habits of college males are applicable to the wider world.

    Do you or anyone else have data showing that his data is more widely applicable, or that he’s done additional research applying it to the US population?

  122. 122
    John Morales

    [meta]

    Suido, +1 for snark. :)

    (I am impressed)

  123. 123
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    ragarth, you say that the appalling conviction rates of rape are proof of horrifying misogyny on the part of judges. A few things on that:
    1) Said “horrifying misogyny” is often expressed in the sense that she had it coming / it wasn’t that bad / she was a bad person herself (read: she was not a virgin, she was or had been a sex worker, she was wearing a short skirt, she was out late at night, she was in a bad neighborhood, etc) / he was her husband / he was her boyfriend / she had flirted with him / et cetera. This pattern, of saying that the only rapes that “count” are the (statistically rare) cases of innocent virgins being dragged into dark alleys by armed strangers. This says that the majority of rapes are not actually rape or are not deserving of punishment. If it is not rape, if it is not criminal, if she had it coming, if it wasn’t that bad, then it is condoned. Read again your handy definition of rape culture

    “a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.”

    (my emphasis)
    2) Many times, it isn’t necessarily the judge, but the jury. Like if the jury has someone who thinks that bitches are always lying, and even if this one isn’t, then the rapist should be acquitted anyway, because all those other bitches are always lying.
    3) Many times, it doesn’t even get before a judge or jury, because the cops and/or DA buy into those theories. Because why ruin a man’s life over something so small?

    Seriously, rape culture is real. And as for the 1/6 stat: it is my opinion that this is a lowball estimate.

    Also, go read Meet the Predators. And the followup post. And the one about how men do understand women’s nonverbal messages that she’s not interested, they just ignore it. Because bitches.

    —-

    Bobo, MRAs tend to fall on the abortion debate squarely on the side of “the impregnator should decide.” If he wants to fuck without a condom, then he has that right, and she should deal. And if she gets pregnant, then it his wishes that decide the matter. Men forcibly impregnating women, and then forcing them to have abortions happens. Because it enforces how he owns and controls her. If he wants a kid and she terminates, then she’s an evil unnatural bitch for killing “his” child. If he doesn’t want a kid and she doesn’t terminate, then she’s an evil sperm-stealing bitch who ruined him for the sake of his hard-earned money. Because child support is the route to wealth.

  124. 124
    John Morales

    [OT]

    JAQing:

    @John Morales
     
    What’s JAQing?

    This: “Do you or anyone else have data showing that his data is more widely applicable, or that he’s done additional research applying it to the US population?”.

    (Because this thread provides data showing that you’re ostensibly just asking questions)

  125. 125
    ragarth

    @mythbri #109

    I’m getting a lot of responses, so I’m sorta responding randomly.
    I’ll actually have to stop soon, I have to get to other things.

    Safe practices are things like not letting your drinks out of your sight, pacing your drinking to avoid getting drunk, etc.

    I don’t feel people who don’t do these things are at fault. The perpetrator is the guilty party, not the victim.

    I also haven’t refused to accept statistical evidence, I’ve shown that the statistical evidence doesn’t prove the claim.

  126. 126
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Safe practices are things like not letting your drinks out of your sight, pacing your drinking to avoid getting drunk, etc.

    These things also put the onus on the victim to avoid being victimized, rather than on the victimizer to stop victimizing people.

  127. 127
    Valde

    Regarding the existence of rape culture, check this shit out:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2212996/Outrage-man-jailed-raping-disabled-woman-communicate-tapping-index-finger-FREED-court-ruled-BIT-say-advances.html

    disabled girl didnt fight her rapist hard enough, so its clear she *wanted* it, rapist gets freed!

  128. 128
    Inaji

    Suido:

    Ragarth’s first trick was not performing a simple internet search to check some statistics.

    Ragarth’s fourth trick was assuming everyone was at his beck and call, asking for links despite being told where the links could be found. The comment indicating where the links might be found even included some helpful key words which would work in the googly machine.

    Internetz searches be wimmin’s work. Apparently.

  129. 129
    Gregory Greenwood

    ragarth @ 88;

    Let me rephrase my thank you to say, “Thank you for not assuming I’m a trolling ass, I appreciate that.” Thanking good people happens too rarely.

    I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but all too often I have been burned while doing so. I have, to my shame, unintentionally enabled some pretty nasty trolling in the past. I hope I am not making the same mistake again.

    As per learning from lurking, you’re the only person thus far I’ve gained anything from by posting in this thread. I’m willing to sort rubble for diamonds, but not hold my breath and dive into the overflow tank of a sewage treatment plant for one. I only posted this one time because I figured the best way to the data would be to ask those who have it.

    There is much to learn from the comments of other people here with regard to the pervasive nature of rape culture among many, many other topics. The direct language is simply an expression of legitimate passion – this is not an issue that exists in a vacuum. I have the privilege of being a white, cis-het man who has never suffered a sexual assault, and neither have most of my immediate family. Obviously I do not know of your experiences in this regard, but I can tell you that there are several rape survivors who comment regularly on this blog. This topic is not some abstract intellectual exercise for them, but the reality of their lives. I think that they are entitled to feel strongly and to use language that conveys that strength of feeling, as are the people who are aware of their suffering or who have loved ones who have gone through similar horrors. That I can be so relatively calm and laid back while discussing this issue is a function of my privilege with regard to this topic; it is a luxery I can afford because it so happens that these issues do not directly affect me, but it most certainly is not an indicator that I possess some superior perspective on these issues or that my position is more rational or worthwhile.

    Sometimes, when people are angry, it is because the topic under discussion warrents that anger.

    I also didn’t say you had to choose between fighting rape culture and breaking the glass ceiling, but to rephrase my point, if rape culture doesn’t exist, then it has a negative impact upon fighting other forms of inequality, largely in terms of public image. If it does exist, then it is worth fighting.

    I frankly don’t understand how you can doubt the existence of rape culture – it is all around us, from the terribly low conviction rates, through the casual sexual objectification of women in popular culture, to the all too common victim blaming attitude in our society that leads people to see a rape victim who is a woman and immediately start pontificating on what she did or failed to do that resulted in her rape. That minutely examines her sexual history as if she is on trial. That assumes that she must have ‘asked for it’ in one way or another.

    While I agree with you that only a 6.5% conviction rate is atrocious, it goes against reasoning to think that only 6.5% of claims are false, this doesn’t show a rape culture, but rather bigotry on the part of UK judges. Misogyny and victim blaming can exist with a victim rate that is not far off from the norm for crime.

    (Emphasis added)

    It isn’t just a problem with judges; the conviction rate is 6.5% of reported rapes (it rises to 58% of rape cases that go to trial), which is the lowest coviction rate among reported crimes of comparable seriousness by a vast margin. The problem lies at every step along the path to court, with police officers that do not take the complaints of rape victims seriously and/or fail to gather evidence properly, with the Crown Prosecution Service consistently declining to prosecute on the basis that women who report rape are somehow inherently unreliable, with defence lawyers whose option of first resort is to try to attack the character of the woman by seeking to put her sexual history and conduct at the time on trial, further replicating the aforementioned victim blaming tropes. And yes, with judges who fail to take rape cases seriously.

    How can a legal culture (which itself reflects a broader social culture) of minimising and dismissing the seriousness of rape as a crime be so widespread, and yet not amount to a rape culture?

    Your second source has a lot more bite to it, and is backed by the BJS, a primary source. It has issues however, the data is from 1998, this falls into the violent 90′s of the US, a period of time when *all* forms of violent crime were up. If you look at this chart:

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/viortrdtab.cfm

    You’ll see that from 1998 to 2009 the rate of rape victimization dropped to 1/3 its previous level over a steady trend. You’ll also note that if we assume *all* rape is done to women, and all other violent crime is spread equally across both sexes, that the incidence of rape is still below that of all other violent crimes except murder.

    A drop in the overall incidence of violent crime including rape can show that the social factors that lead to crime in general are being reduced, or even that law enforcement is becoming more effective overall, but this does not rebut the existence of a rape culture that treats rape as less serious than other, comparable crimes involving personal violence, and that seeks to blame the victims of rape for the crime perpetrated against them in a way that victims are rarely, if ever, blamed in cases of other forms of crime.

    This leaves the 95% figure as your best line of evidence, and it jives with what I know about victim blaming and the shame of being a victim. It doesn’t prove a rape culture, however. It shows that cultural issues of victim blaming and shame still exist, and these should be combated.

    Victim blaming is an integral part of rape culture, because it places the blame for rape at least in part on the victim rather than the attacker, and because the victims of rape are blamed for the crimes perpetrated against them in a way that the victims of other crimes are not. It shows a social attitude that actively looks for a way to shame rape victims in a way that it doesn’t seek to shame the victims of assault, robbery or grievous bodily harm.

    Rape culture, as defined by Wikipedia (shoot me if you’re a college professor) is “a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.”

    You’ve shown positively that US culture excuses rape, but I’ve seen nothing that shows that it is common, or really accepted in society. Victim blaming can exist while the act itself is still frowned upon. I will accept that there *is* a rape culture on many college campuses, and PZ Myers has shown that such exist in other highly specialized locals such as gaming conventions, but these cultures do not translate to the larger culture where the vast majority of women targeted by this meme live.

    Rape culture doesn’t have to amount to a public endorsement of rape – a system that consistently places some or all of the blame for rape on the shoulders of the victim is still rape culture.

    A system that makes it difficult for a woman to achieve legal redress for rape is still rape culture.

    A society that narrowly defines ‘true rape’ as stranger rape with violence while ignoring the far more common acquaintance rape is still rape culture.

    A culture where men feel themselves entitled to hold forth on the ‘true’ level of danger presented by rape, and on how women ‘should’ live their lives in regard to their own sexuality lest they ‘ask for it’ – without even bothering to listen to the women who actually experience this in their day to day lives – is still rape culture.

    Don’t get overly hung up on Wikipedia definitions. It is hardly an authoratative source.

    I’ll reiterate, I’m not saying that people shouldn’t take precautions, getting the word out there of what people need to do to not become victims is extremely important. Everyone who goes on dates, or goes to bars should follow basic precautions, but unless a rape culture actually does exist, the espousing of it does more harm than good.

    Rather (if we assume rape culture doesn’t exist for the purposes of this *one* statement), the message would be more effective if it kept to the truth of the matter, thereby being more immune to being blown off as a fairy tale. If people see a claim as being patently false, they’re more likely to ignore the prescriptions coming along with that claim, such as safe dating practices

    Allow me to provide a counter scenario – if (as the evidence and the experiences of many people on this very blog strongly suggest) rape culture does exist, then by advocating for silencing the discussion of the very factors that allow rapists to get awat with rape, you are effectively offering succour and support to rapists. Some of the people who read your posts may be rapists or potential rapists, and may take comfort and validation from reading someone opining that Schrödinger’s Rapist is ‘scaremongering’, and that women and anti-sexual violence activists who are concerned about the incidence of rape and the pervasive nature of rape culture are ‘paranoid’.

    Assuming that rape culture is simply a product of some kind of paranoiac delusion among feminists and rape survivors – especially when you admit that your own understanding of the issues is limited – runs the very real risk of acting as support and cover for rapists and the cultural attitudes that enable rape. Is that a risk you really want to take?

  130. 130
    consciousness razor

    I also haven’t refused to accept statistical evidence, I’ve shown that the statistical evidence doesn’t prove the claim.

    Complete fucking bullshit.

    Let me get this straight. You mean the fucking claim that there is a rape culture, right?

    Then which statistical evidence have you decided to look at, which you think is supposed to support that claim? Is it just whatever evidence you happen to know about, because you never had any intention of doing actual fucking research anyway?

    Because you have not shown there’s no statistical evidence that there is “a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.”

    And how much would that shit need to happen to fucking describe the culture that way? If you had shown with some fucking statistical evidence that it can’t accurately be described that way, then you must have already decided on a fucking threshold, which apparently wouldn’t be at all debatable since you haven’t even bothered to mention what it was. But just out of curiosity, since you’ve done all this fucking work for us, what is that threshold?

  131. 131
    Gregory Greenwood

    mythbri @ 109;

    I notice that you’re only responding to people who are rude to you, other than Gregory (who is rarely rude to anyone, so don’t feel special).

    True, but I do have my moments from time to time. Even my compulsive niceness and aversion to teh swears has its limits…

    Of course, now you need to ask yourself how I avoid being rude most of the time. It almost certainly is not because I sneak out at night to kill and skin MRAs.

    Almost certainly…

  132. 132
    Suido

    Those dang wimminz, refusing to be secretaries and research assistants. Who will do all the work if women are the bosses and scientists? Society is doomed, doomed I tells ya.

    Note: I originally tried to reply to Caine from the perspective of a gamer/programmer dudebro, but the cognitive dissonance was too much.

  133. 133
    Inaji

    Suido:

    Note: I originally tried to reply to Caine from the perspective of a gamer/programmer dudebro, but the cognitive dissonance was too much.

    ‘S alright, it’s not like we don’t hear enough of that shit for real. Witness Ragarth, The Gay Douchewiz.

  134. 134
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I’m sorry for my rant @121. It was a bit intemperate. But this is also a bit of a sore topic.

    *sigh*

    I just cannot comprehend the subspecies of men who just don’t see why we’re so angry at the male supremacist systems that are actively hurting us.

  135. 135
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Did ragarth set off anybody’s gaydar? Mine is non-existent. Frankly, I doubt his claim, but would be willing to revise that conclusion if somebody thinks he is telling the truth.

  136. 136
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    No, Nerd, the subspecies of gay men who utterly don’t grok (or care about this lack) women because women utterly fail to appear on their radar at all is a rather common one.

  137. 137
    Inaji

    Esteleth:

    It was a bit intemperate.

    I don’t care if I come across as intemperate. After four years of threads like this, willfully obtuse individuals such as Ragarth are getting exactly what they’re asking for, in my not at all humble opinion.

    I’ve lost count of how many of these threads I’ve been in, repeating the same information over and over and over and over, dealing with the ever increasing amount of people who come out as rape survivors, dealing with the truly horrible asses who think it’s funny to troll about rape, etc. For every one I participate in, I get to have an evening of rape flashbacks, a few bouts of vomiting and a period of hypervigilance. PTSD is such fun.

    Given the active harm such Jaq-offs do, I couldn’t possibly care less how I come across to them.

  138. 138
    ragarth

    @Caine, Fleur du mal

    Perhaps I missed the post, but you didn’t come off as intemperate to me. I appreciated your response. atm I’m parsing through Gregory Greenwood’s, it’s going a bit slow now that I’ve had to divide my attention.

  139. 139
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I said that my post was intemperate. And by that I mean that I worry that my language triggered others.

    Ragarth, I am seriously troubled and pissed off by you.

  140. 140
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    And by that, I wonder why you are so skeptical of rape culture and women’s “paranoia” (as you term it) of rape. Seriously.

  141. 141
    Ibis3, Let's burn some bridges

    @ ragarth Fuck you and your JAQing off. You might pretend to be a decent human being, but in truth you display nothing but a disgusting, loathsome veneer barely covering an even more repulsive interior. Speak no more until you’ve educated yourself, or go away and crawl back under your rock. I trust that’s civil enough for you?

  142. 142
    mythbri

    Watch your drinks.
    Don’t get drunk.
    Don’t drink.
    Don’t do drugs.
    Be careful who you flirt with.
    Make a plan for how to get home in a hurry.
    Keep your car keys in your hand.
    Hold your keys so the edges poke between your fingers.
    Don’t go out alone.
    Take your dog with you.
    Don’t go out after dark.
    Don’t walk in deserted areas.
    Don’t run the same route every day.
    Don’t go out with your hair down.
    Don’t go out with your hair tied back.
    Be seen talking on your cell phone.
    Don’t be seen talking on your cell phone.
    Watch what you wear.
    Wear shoes that you can easily run in.
    Don’t sleep around.
    Don’t have sex.
    Make plans to check in with a friend.
    Send information about the person you’re dating to a friend.
    Buy a gun.
    Carry a knife.
    Carry pepper spray.
    Learn Tae Kwon Do.
    Park under a light.
    Check under the car.
    Fight back.
    Don’t fight back.
    Don’t draw attention to yourself.
    Don’t let anyone drive you home.
    Don’t let anyone inside your house.
    Don’t make out with anyone.
    Aim for the groin.
    Don’t be alone with anyone.
    Don’t go to parties.
    Don’t go to church.
    Don’t go camping.
    Don’t go to the park.
    Don’t go to bars.
    Don’t go to school.
    Don’t go to work.
    Don’t travel.
    Lock your doors.
    Lock your windows.
    Hide in the closet.

    Don’t get raped.

  143. 143
    ragarth

    @Esteleth has eaten ALL the gingerbread! Suck it! #138

    Copied from the post I’m working on for Gregory Greenwood:

    “Its because I only see it espoused by a (relatively) small online group and don’t see it all around me in real life while the statistics I had looked up previous to posting here didn’t support the claims I’ve read elsewhere. The terrible nature of the claim made essentially requires that I check its veracity because if it is true then it’d modify my existing actions in trying to combat social issues of rape and women’s rights.”

    As per the paranoia comment, I apologized for it earlier. It was a poor choice of words to convey what I meant.

  144. 144
    mythbri

    Here’s some more helpful prevention advice:

    Don’t be disabled.
    Don’t be a person of color.
    Don’t be homosexual.
    Don’t be heterosexual.
    Don’t be asexual.
    Don’t be in prison.
    Don’t be old.
    Don’t be young.
    Don’t be a daughter.
    Don’t be a sister.
    Don’t be a cousin.
    Don’t be a friend.
    Don’t be in college.
    Don’t be married.
    Don’t be dating.

    Don’t be raped.

  145. 145
    Inaji

    Mythbri:

    Don’t be alone with anyone.
    Don’t go to parties.
    Don’t go to church.
    Don’t go camping.
    Don’t go to the park.
    Don’t go to bars.
    Don’t go to school.
    Don’t go to work.
    Don’t travel.
    Lock your doors.
    Lock your windows.
    Hide in the closet.
     
    Don’t get raped.

    Oh, the solution is easy. If women would simply stay under a father’s thumb until they are safely under a husband’s thumb and be sure to stay in the kitchen (unless they are a birthin’), they’ll be sure to be safe. Yep.

  146. 146
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Ragath, let me ask you a serious question.

    Which do you think is more likely:
    (1) a vast cabal hatches a plan to convince people that rape is widespread and tacitly accepted by society in order to pull a fast one, discredit feminism/men (take your pick), and distract people from real issues? This would include somehow or another tricking government agencies and independent researchers into producing flawed data, or by including in the conspiracy.
    or
    (2) rape culture is a relatively accurate description of the world.

    Seriously.

  147. 147
    Argle Bargle

    “Its because I only see it espoused by a (relatively) small online group and don’t see it all around me in real life while the statistics I had looked up previous to posting here didn’t support the claims I’ve read elsewhere.

    So Rogarth doesn’t believe statistics which don’t match his prejudices. Combined with his JAQ and “oh I’m against rape, I just don’t think it happens as often as the evidence says”, there’s little doubt he’s a slymepit denizen trying to get his bannination merit badge to show his fellow MRAs.

  148. 148
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Also, let’s say that the 1/6 stats are overblown. Let’s say that feminists have dreamt up rape culture.

    Why?

    Why would they do that? Why would anyone dream up something as horrible as those stats and/or that concept?

  149. 149
    ragarth

    @Esteleth has eaten ALL the gingerbread! Suck it!

    Well, of the two choices, 2 would be most likely. Problem is, that’s not a proper framing of the issue from my perspective.

    “a vast cabal hatches a plan to convince people that rape is widespread and tacitly accepted by society in order to pull a fast one, discredit feminism/men (take your pick), and distract people from real issues? This would include somehow or another tricking government agencies and independent researchers into producing flawed data, or by including in the conspiracy.”

    Would be a disparate group of people on the internet self-reinforcing their beliefs.

    But all that might be moot. Individually, none of y’all have given a very cogent argument for the case, but between you, Gregory, and PZ, a rather decent case can be made. I’m futzing about now to see if I can hammer it into a decent defense. If I can, I’ll admit defeat and convert. :-)

  150. 150
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Would be a disparate group of people on the internet self-reinforcing their beliefs.

    …while being able to point to a bunch of real-world evidence and stats.

    If I can, I’ll admit defeat and convert. :-)

    I’m tickled that you think this is a game.

  151. 151
    mythbri

    @ragarth #147

    Individually, none of y’all have given a very cogent argument for the case

    and

    I’ll admit defeat and convert.

    I doubt it. You have not demonstrated an ability to either gather evidence yourself, or accept it when it’s presented to you.

    Never mind individual experiences and personal stories that support the evidence that has been provided. Numbers matter more than people.

  152. 152
    Argle Bargle

    Individually, none of y’all have given a very cogent argument for the case, but between you, Gregory, and PZ, a rather decent case can be made. I’m futzing about now to see if I can hammer it into a decent defense. If I can, I’ll admit defeat and convert.

    How gracious of you to accept the possibility that other people might know what they’re talking about concerning a subject you admit you’re ignorant about.

  153. 153
    Inaji

    Let’s say that feminists have dreamt up rape culture.

    Let’s say that all gay males make a conscious choice to be gay and just make up stories about homophobia and people not wanting them to have basic rights, like being able to marry. Because statistics and research and shit, well, that’s like, not real. Nope.

  154. 154
    ragarth

    @Esteleth has eaten ALL the gingerbread! Suck it!

    “Why would they do that? Why would anyone dream up something as horrible as those stats and/or that concept?”

    You assume that people would do such a thing consciously. If some group of people consciously did such a thing knowing fully the harm they’d cause, that would be evil. Its far more likely, however, that an untrue meme would arise organically amongst a group already biased toward its belief.

    Our only weapon of falling prey to demons of our own irrational mind is to be cognizant and careful of that ingrained irrationality. This is me being careful of not falling prey to that demon when I’ve made the decision of possibly adopting a belief.

  155. 155
    consciousness razor

    As per the paranoia comment, I apologized for it earlier.

    You made two such comments, not one. Once in one of the most loaded questions I’ve ever seen, and later in the same comment implying you intended it as a factual claim. It’s absurd to think those were both just innocuous slip-ups because of “word choice” from someone who doesn’t think that at all.

    And you didn’t apologize for making it. This is what you said:

    Sometimes paranoia is justified. Soldiers in war zones have adequate reason to point guns at things that move, for instance. I apologize if you’re reading more into what I typed than what I actually said.

    In other words, “What I actually said was not ‘the paranoia comment’ which I’m later going to claim I apologized for, and I apologize that you can’t read plain English even though you obviously can.” A classic notpology.

    It was a poor choice of words to convey what I meant.

    If it isn’t supposed to be the exact same thing with different words, then you still haven’t said what you meant to convey. Disguising a disgusting attitude with not-so-poor word choice won’t make a difference.

  156. 156
    Inaji

    Mythbri:

    You have not demonstrated an ability to either gather evidence yourself, or accept it when it’s presented to you.

    QFT. I not only provided handy dandy links to two studies, but quoted large amounts of them. Apparently, reading is something else Ragarth the Gay Douchewiz can’t manage.

  157. 157
    Argle Bargle

    Our only weapon of falling prey to demons of our own irrational mind is to be cognizant and careful of that ingrained irrationality. This is me being careful of not falling prey to that demon when I’ve made the decision of possibly adopting a belief.

    If several people tell me something about a subject I’m not familiar with, I generally accept their word, especially if they give evidence like internet links to support what they’re saying. But then I’m just silly that way, not like certain slymepitters.

  158. 158
    Ichthyic

    If some group of people consciously did such a thing knowing fully the harm they’d cause, that would be evil. Its far more likely, however, that an untrue meme would arise organically amongst a group already biased toward its belief.

    you mean like:

    “gay marriage will destroy the american family!”

    like that?

  159. 159
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    I see. So the reason why people came up with rape culture as an explanation for real-world patterns is because they’re deluded.

    So tell us, O Enlightened One, how can we grasp the truth? Maybe by not getting all emotional over things like rape? And by being “objective” about sexism?

  160. 160
    ragarth

    “How gracious of you to accept the possibility that other people might know what they’re talking about concerning a subject you admit you’re ignorant about.”

    What would you rather I do, accept other people’s claims based on their assumed authority?

    That would be silly, and if that were the way of it I’d still be a Christian. I got to where I am in life by not accepting claims at face value, no matter how hard it is to question them.

    I accept that others can know what they’re talking about. I don’t accept that they always know what they’re talking about.

  161. 161
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Not through the whole comment thread yet, but as a matter of principle, I must say, as your Official Spokesgay:

    Shut your dumb yap before you say anything even more outrageously offensive, Ragarth. And quit with the whiny hand-wringing about tone, too. There are no smelling salts here so if you faint you’re on your own.

    You waded into a conversation mischaracterizing what women say they fear as “hyper extreme,” then you duplicated most of the dumb, rape-denying talking points straight doods do. Your incoming assumptions were appallingly offensive. How would you feel if someone came in and sarcastically dismissed a gay man’s fear of being bashed on the street at night as “paranoia,” and “hyper extremism?”

    You have a lot to learn, and you can learn it. But you need to start by examining the fact that you’re being a total asshole about this. You’re wrong. Your prior assumptions are wrong. And your attitude of stunned offense when the targets of your bullshit push back is classic asshole.

    Do better.

  162. 162
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Seriously, where the fuck is my Sexism Bingo card?

    We’ve already hit “women are so emotional,” “rape is rare, so why are you complaining about references to it,” “it’s all a plot,” and “it is important to be truly objective.”

  163. 163
    nimuae

    There is a lot of discussion about what women are thinking and whether they’re justified about thinking it.

    What I don’t see is anyone questioning why men don’t see the 1 in 6 statistic and say “Wow, I’m surprised by all the people I know who probably have been raped.” Or, even, “Maybe I should approach that woman on the bus assuming she’s been abused by a man.”

    So much time getting into the women’s head. So much time ignoring what men are thinking leading me to believe that men have some priviledge regarding what they think about that women do not have.

    This thread seems like good evidence to me that a rape culture exists.

  164. 164
    Inaji

    Esteleth:

    We’ve already hit “women are so emotional,” “rape is rare, so why are you complaining about references to it,” “it’s all a plot,” and “it is important to be truly objective.”

    I think the bingo card was filled long ago. As for Ragarth, he seems to be incapable of even figuring out that you can’t have all of the above. He’s simply pulling one thing after another out of his ass, hoping one of them will float.

  165. 165
    John Morales

    [meta]

    ragarth:

    [1] Our only weapon of falling prey to demons of our own irrational mind is to be cognizant and careful of that ingrained irrationality. [2] This is me being careful of not falling prey to that demon when I’ve made the decision of possibly adopting a belief.

    1. Such simplistic certitude!

    There are other weapons tools, such as acumen and intellectual honesty.

    2. You overestimate your competence, your credibility and your importance no less than your entitlement to others’ pedagogy.

    (Bah)

  166. 166
    ragarth

    @Esteleth has eaten ALL the gingerbread! Suck it! #157

    Now you’re putting words in my mouth.

    Did I ever actually say that you’re deluded? No, but if the concept here really is false, then you would be. Its highly unlikely to be proven false, however. I’m undecided, all of you believe the claim. For it to be proven false, someone would have to make a positive argument for it being false.

    Unless you’re willing to play devil’s advocate and try to prove your belief false, I most likely won’t end up disbelieving.

  167. 167
    Anthony K

    Our only weapon of falling prey to demons of our own irrational mind is to be cognizant and careful of that ingrained irrationality.

    I got to where I am in life by not accepting claims at face value, no matter how hard it is to question them.

    After writing “I also don’t do bar scenes largely for the same reason (most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy”, it’s way too fucking late to pretend to be a skeptical, critical thinker.

    So I wanna see some data for this claim of yours.

    Maybe then I’ll accept that you’re making the right decision for yourself to avoid gay bars.

  168. 168
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ragarth @53:

    Compared to my experience, it seems that the hyper-extremes that people such as Schrodinger’s Rapist engage in and promote might be scare-mongering.

    Your experiences are not reflective of others’. Women are in greater danger of being raped than men. Look up the statistics. Have you even read Schrodinger’s Rapist? If 1 in 6 women gets raped in their lives, then clearly rape is something that is so prevalent in society that women have every right to be guarded. Men should recognize this and do their part to *not* make women uncomfortable (that’s if you possess empathy and compassion). Shuffling your feet is hardly going out of your way for someone, especially if she is on her guard.
    Scaremongering? That’s when the a racist moron fans the flames of intolerance towards Muslims, proclaiming that they’re justified in calling for tighter security measures in airports in the US or Australia. There may be something to that fear, but that’s not justification for implementing racist security measures at airports.

    Okay, disclaimer: I’m gay, so know little about the hetero dating scene’s issues, and hence my asking questions about it.

    Yeah, I’m gay too. Difference is, I try to research the stuff I’m talking about before I open my flap. You should try it.

    It totes works!

    most gay guys that frequent bars are slimy,

    You’d be better served saying “in my experience…”. I find this statement offensive, and I’ve hung out at a lot of gay bars. I’ve found slimy guys who like to stare at your dick while you’re peeing, or who hit on you in the bathroom, or follow you around like a lovesick puppy trying to get your attention and glaring at you. I’ve also found some very polite, respectable individuals and some wonderful friends. You’re using a broad brush to paint with in your attempt to disparage other gay men, and elevate yourself to Special Snowflake.

    I’m glad I don’t get embarrassed by the comments from fellow gay men, because the shit you say would make me sorry.

  169. 169
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    The terrible nature of the claim made essentially requires that I check its veracity because if it is true then it’d modify my existing actions in trying to combat social issues of rape and women’s rights.”

    Sure it would.

    Sure it would.

    You’re a dedicated feminist activist, and this would simply lead to a shift in your immediate priorities.

    Sure.

    If I can, I’ll admit defeat

    What you don’t appreciate is that you’ve already lost. You’ve failed at basic decency (and at simulating it, for that matter).

  170. 170
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    When I first heard the 1/6 stat, my first reaction was this:
    “I’ve never been raped. I know lots of women – in fact, there’s at least 20 women in this room.

    ..but that means…

    …NO. NO. NO.”

    It is, in truth, a hard thing to wrap one’s mind around. The depth to which society hurts and oppresses women, and the awful pervasiveness of the kyriarchy.

    But here’s the thing: denying the truth and pushing it away does not help. It only creates more shadows for the system to thrive in.

  171. 171
    mythbri

    @ragarth #164

    Its highly unlikely to be proven false, however. I’m undecided, all of you believe the claim. For it to be proven false, someone would have to make a positive argument for it being false.

    Unless you’re willing to play devil’s advocate and try to prove your belief false, I most likely won’t end up disbelieving.

    What does this even mean?

  172. 172
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ragarth, you can do better. I know because I did (or try to). You’d be shocked at how much sexist denial of women’s experiences all of us absorb. We’re soaking in it. You are too. I was until just a few years ago.

    But it’s wrong. Really wrong. And unjust NOT to work to do better. If you need to go be pissed off because people have insulted you and called you bad names (which you had coming, and I’m not sorry) then do so. Once you get over that please read the links provided, be quiet and listen—really listen—to what women are saying, put yourself in their place using whatever homophobia analogy works for you, and think.

    Don’t come back and complain about how you’ve been maligned. Just think.

  173. 173
    mesh

    You assume that people would do such a thing consciously. If some group of people consciously did such a thing knowing fully the harm they’d cause, that would be evil. Its far more likely, however, that an untrue meme would arise organically amongst a group already biased toward its belief.

    Our only weapon of falling prey to demons of our own irrational mind is to be cognizant and careful of that ingrained irrationality. This is me being careful of not falling prey to that demon when I’ve made the decision of possibly adopting a belief.

    At this point I’m left wondering what kind of evidence Ragarth

    would

    accept. So we’re to assume that even the people who compile the statistical data are unwitting distorting due to some completely unfalsifiable “untrue meme”. So then the skeptical approach is to assume that rape culture doesn’t exist on the grounds that we can’t prove that the researchers don’t have some subconscious impetus to fudge all the data on a specific, narrow topic?

  174. 174
    mesh

    I keep mixing up my blockquote tags with italics D=

  175. 175
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Heh! Ragarth is the the first gay brodude to slime up a thread.

  176. 176
    Inaji

    Mesh:

    At this point I’m left wondering what kind of evidence Ragarth would accept.

    I doubt there is any, as Ragarth wants to handwave rape away. One of the most interesting things about the Meet the Predators studies was finding out that men will freely confess to rape as long as the word rape isn’t used. It’s all under cover, the cover of rape culture.

    Ragarth is coming across as one of those people who has a specific scenario in mind for a rape (the legitimate type, ya know) and the type of person who is a rapist. As the majority of rapists and rapes don’t match up with his image, voila, they aren’t rapes!

  177. 177
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    …is not…

    sigh…

  178. 178
    mythbri

    @ragarth #158

    That would be silly, and if that were the way of it I’d still be a Christian.

    You think that accepting the statistical likelihood that a woman will be the victim of rape in her lifetime is comparable to belief in a non-existent deity with absolutely no evidence available for its existence?

  179. 179
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I’m convinced ragarth is a slymepitter, and won’t accept any evidence, as it only offers hyperskepticism rather than hard evidence to back up its case. Just as the MRA fuckwits do, thinking hyperskepticism is evidence. All it is evidence of is their inability to actually see the situation for what it is due to their idiotology, no matter how many times they claim they can be swayed by evidence *snicker*. They are as presuppositional in this matter as Ken Ham is with his “museum”.

  180. 180
    Inaji

    Janine:

    Heh! Ragarth is the the first gay brodude to slime up a thread.

    No, there was whatshisface during e-gate, um…Justicar. Right?

  181. 181
    John Morales

    [meta]

    Odd how no-one here is disputing or doubting Ragarth’s claimed sexual orientation, since it’s counter to Ragarth’s contention that “If you’re on this blog, you dismiss personal testimony all the time.”

  182. 182
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    JM, I’m willing to believe that ragarth is gay. Because as I said upthread, he’s hardly the first gay man I’ve run into with seriously flawed views of women.

  183. 183
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Caine, I just whined about yet an other one of my typos.

    Not Justicar, though. That gay frat boy. Cannot remember his name. You two really tangled.

  184. 184
    mesh

    I doubt there is any, as Ragarth wants to handwave rape away.

    Ohhh, but Caine, he’s just asking questions!

  185. 185
    Argle Bargle

    ragarth #158

    What would you rather I do, accept other people’s claims based on their assumed authority?

    Why not? You admitted you know little about the subject and the people you called liars actually gave you links to reasonable sources to support their claims.

    That would be silly, and if that were the way of it I’d still be a Christian. I got to where I am in life by not accepting claims at face value, no matter how hard it is to question them.

    It’s one thing to ask for evidence or to look for evidence yourself. It’s something else when the evidence is presented and for you to ignore it.

    I accept that others can know what they’re talking about. I don’t accept that they always know what they’re talking about.

    Unless you’ve got some reason to believe what others tell you, it’s actually quite reasonable to accept what they tell you. Unless you’re an asshole.

    Congratulations, you’ve just qualified as an asshole. Aren’t you proud? Now you can brag to your slymepit bros your assholishness has been certified.

  186. 186
    Inaji

    Janine:

    That gay frat boy. Cannot remember his name. You two really tangled.

    Oh, Max. Max H If I remember right. Yeah, that one was a piece of fucking work.

  187. 187
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Odd how no-one here is disputing or doubting Ragarth’s claimed sexual orientation

    No. Gay men can be just as thickly misogynist and clueless as any dood, and they frequently are.

    . . oh, wait. Derp. LOL. I get it now.

  188. 188
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Max H, yes!!! Good memory, Caine.

    And who was that other one who went on in gruesomely hostile detail about how horrible and depraved his fellow gay men were? This most recent reminded me of him.

  189. 189
    nimuae

    @Esteleth

    It is staggering, isn’t it? Unfortunately, I’m one of ‘those women.’ I am also married. I’m often surprised at how, even knowing my past, my husband will act bewildered when I express fear or discomfort about new people or places.

    And, he’s really a great guy. Our society just seems to train people to look away from the casualties of the 1 in 6 statistic.

    @Caine, Fleur du mal

    None of the sexual abuse I suffered falls into the ‘real rape’ category. I bet my ex-boyfriend who raped me would never consider himself a rapist. After all I consented after being driven far out of town, on a moonless night, before the time of cell phones, and threatened with a knife. But, hey, we’d had mutually consenting sex prior to that so I was definitely asking for it.

  190. 190
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    That gay frat boy. Cannot remember his name.

    What was his name?

  191. 191
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Oh, Max. Max H If I remember right.

    Thank you. (I remembered his commenting on the Yale thread, but the name eluded me.)

  192. 192
    ragarth

    @Gregory Greenwood

    “I frankly don’t understand how you can doubt the existence of rape culture…”

    Its because I only see it espoused by a (relatively) small online group and don’t see it all around me in real life while the statistics I had looked up previous to posting here didn’t support the claims I’ve read elsewhere. The terrible nature of the claim made essentially requires that I check its veracity because if it is true then it’d modify my existing actions in trying to combat social issues of rape and women’s rights.

    I came here because I understand that my social group is not representative of the larger world, and I could be misinterpreting statistics, that said, the reason for my ‘extreme skepticism,’ as others have called it, is because I understand these are true of every body else as well.

    “The problem lies at every step along the path to court, with police officers that do not take the complaints of rape victims seriously and/or fail to gather evidence properly, with the Crown Prosecution Service consistently declining to prosecute on the basis that women who report rape are somehow inherently unreliable, with defence lawyers whose option of first resort is to try to attack the character of the woman by seeking to put her sexual history and conduct at the time on trial, further replicating the aforementioned victim blaming tropes.”

    This would prove the existence of a rape culture, because it would allow rapists to act with impunity, and show cross-social acceptance of it from police through the courts. Can you show evidence that this is endemic?

    “How can a legal culture (which itself reflects a broader social culture) of minimising and dismissing the seriousness of rape as a crime be so widespread, and yet not amount to a rape culture?”

    Because I don’t believe the legal culture reflects the larger culture. My experience has been that the broader culture is a collection of countless, overlapping, specialized cultures, and only through a decent swath of those specialized cultures can claims be made of the broader culture. Ergo a single culture–the judiciary of the UK–is not a good sample for making claims against the larger culture.

    Now, given this, between you, His Holy Tentacled, and Caine, Fleur du mal, there is sufficient evidence of such things existing within the judicial, gaming, college, and naval cultures. The question now is, is this a sufficiently representative swath of the population?

    I’d have to say it is. All these groups are not insular (gaming used to be–now it represents a very wide social swath) and so the combination of them is sufficient to represent the greater bulk of the populace.

    So yeah, I’m convinced.

  193. 193
    Inaji

    Nimuae:

    I bet my ex-boyfriend who raped me would never consider himself a rapist. After all I consented after being driven far out of town, on a moonless night, before the time of cell phones, and threatened with a knife. But, hey, we’d had mutually consenting sex prior to that so I was definitely asking for it.

    Of course you were, after all, everyone knows any woman who has sex is a slut and sluts get what they deserve!

    Honestly, I get so damn fucking tired of these attitudes in what is supposed to be 2012. Feels more like 1612.

  194. 194
    mesh

    It’s one thing to ask for evidence or to look for evidence yourself. It’s something else when the evidence is presented and for you to ignore it.

    Well see the problem with evidence is that we have to first operate under the assumption that all the researchers unknowingly fabricated it due to a horrible, memetic subconscious bias until proven otherwise. It’s only after we read their minds and determine their intentions to be as pure as snow that we accept it as evidence for evolution.

    Wait, what were we talking about again? I tend to get these “just asking questions” threads mixed up; they just blend together into one perpetual motion device of denialism.

  195. 195
    mythbri

    @ragarth #190

    So yeah, I’m convinced.

    Whoop-dee shit.

  196. 196
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ragath, you’re just not gonna engage in critique, are you? You’re just gonna double down.

  197. 197
    SallyStrange

    You assume that people would do such a thing consciously. If some group of people consciously did such a thing knowing fully the harm they’d cause, that would be evil. Its far more likely, however, that an untrue meme would arise organically amongst a group already biased toward its belief.

    Our only weapon of falling prey to demons of our own irrational mind is to be cognizant and careful of that ingrained irrationality. This is me being careful of not falling prey to that demon when I’ve made the decision of possibly adopting a belief.

    In other words, bitches be crazy. Unless you are asserting a similar level of delusion affecting all people about all subjects, in which case, how can we know that anything at all is real?

    Heh! Ragarth is the the first gay brodude to slime up a thread.

    Nope! There was that thread about the Yalie frats chanting “No means yes, yes means anal” outside of the freshman women’s dorms. I forget the guy’s name, but he claimed to be a gay fratboy who was so totally down with his bros calling him a fag that he just couldn’t understand why all the women couldn’t just chill out and be as awesomely laid back as he was.

    One of my first Pharyngula knock-down drag-out fights, IIRC. Ah, the good old days.

  198. 198
    Inaji

    SC:

    Thank you. (I remembered his commenting on the Yale thread, but the name eluded me.)

    You’re welcome. The post was this one: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/27/boys-will-berevolting-misogyni/ Of course, it’s sans comments, which is too bad. That was one helluva thread.

  199. 199
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    What are you expecting, Ragath, cookies?

    Also, now that you’ve accepted that rape culture is real, what are you going to do about it?

  200. 200
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    the judicial, gaming, college, and naval cultures

    The “judicial culture” is not a subculture, FFS. That’s like acknowledging that it’s true of the “legislative culture.”

    So yeah, I’m convinced.

    Good. Now buzz off. And take your hyperskepticredulism with you.

  201. 201
    ragarth

    @Josh, Official SpokesGay

    How can I double down when I’ve admitted that I’ve been convinced?

    I believe the claim. I feel safe taking steps in my life to fight it without risking hurting others by perpetuating a falsity.

  202. 202
    SallyStrange

    Oh right. Fucking Max. What a fucking douche.

  203. 203
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Damn, that was a bad typo. It has been quoted twice.

  204. 204
    nimuae

    @Caine, Fleur du mal

    And, that’s exactly why I didn’t report it to anyone – because I was more afraid of my parents finding out I wasn’t a virgin (at 18-19) ie. a slut than I was invested in seeing him punished.

    He called me for weeks afterward and stalked me around the community college until he finally got the message that I was going to have a security officer walk me to my car every. single. night.

  205. 205
    Inaji

    Josh:

    And who was that other one who went on in gruesomely hostile detail about how horrible and depraved his fellow gay men were?

    Gad, I don’t know. Was that the idiot in the ‘How could gay people evolve?’ thread back at Sciborg?

  206. 206
    John Morales

    Anyway, this is not a problem restricted to women; I fear plenty of gay people have had their drinks spiked, too. :|

    ragarth:

    “I frankly don’t understand how you can doubt the existence of rape culture…”

    Its because I only see it espoused by a (relatively) small online group and don’t see it all around me in real life while the statistics I had looked up previous to posting here didn’t support the claims I’ve read elsewhere.

    Yet, in your #88, you wrote (my emphasis) “Rape culture, as defined by Wikipedia (shoot me if you’re a college professor) is “a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.””

    (When prevaricating, consistency is helpful)

  207. 207
    SallyStrange

    I believe the claim. I feel safe taking steps in my life to fight it without risking hurting others by perpetuating a falsity.

    1. What precisely were you scared of doing? And why were you MORE concerned about “perpetuating a falsity” that rape is too common and accepted in this culture and LESS concerned about “perpetuating a falsity” that rape is actually relatively uncommon and a bunch of internet feminists are just self-deluded about the whole rape culture thing? Be honest now: who gave you the information that led you to your horribly mistaken conclusions in the first place? Can you be honest? Really?

    2. Go to a MRA website and tell them about rape culture. Observe how similar their responses are to your initial posts.

    3. THEN you can apologize. You ARE going to apologize for being such a thick-witted douchenozzle, right?

  208. 208
    Inaji

    Nimuae:

    And, that’s exactly why I didn’t report it to anyone – because I was more afraid of my parents finding out I wasn’t a virgin (at 18-19) ie. a slut than I was invested in seeing him punished.

    The belief “good girls don’t get raped” has one whole hell of a lot to answer for.

    He called me for weeks afterward and stalked me around the community college until he finally got the message that I was going to have a security officer walk me to my car every. single. night.

    Jesus, that must have been terrifying.

  209. 209
    ragarth

    @Esteleth has eaten ALL the gingerbread! Suck it! #197

    Well, whatever I can. The first step is promoting the idea, keeping it in the public sphere and making people aware of it.

    Awareness of the issue doesn’t exist in my social sphere, so that’s the first step. I’ve promoted safer dating practices amongst my friends, but awareness of rape culture is a weapon to use against victimization.

    That’s the first step, beyond that, getting information about the issue added to distributed material around town, etc.

    Truth be told though, information and awareness are probably the most powerful tools I have at my disposal for combating the issue, looking for an issue aware group to volunteer is also good, the current group of people I work with on social issues doesn’t have this in their agenda, I’ll work on that.

  210. 210
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Why is it OK for you, ragarth, to avoid a whole set of men and label them ‘slimy’, but not OK for women to have a cautious attitude towards strangers?

    There are several of us here who have been married long enough that, for the first half of our marriages, our spouses couldn’t rape us.

    Yep, rape culture was such that it was literally impossible for whatever a person might do to their spouse to be called ‘rape’.

    Well, that one has been remedied in most places; at least as far as the law-on-the-books is concerned. However, the mindset that said that a spouse gives perpetual consent at the wedding is still prevalent.

    And the mindset that says that if someone consents once, then they can be assumed to have consented on this occasion, too.

    That if they consent to one person, then it was reasonable for another person to assume they consented to them, too.

    That if clear, verbal “No!” signals aren’t given, they are consenting.

    That if clear, verbal “No!” signals are given, they are teasing to make it more exciting.

    That if they are too far under the influence of drink, drugs, fear or exhaustion to put up a fight at the time, then they merely changed their mind later because they were ashamed of wanting it, really.

    THAT is rape culture. It is as invisible to some people as the wind. And, like the wind, it has a disproportionate effect on some people compared to others.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Terrible analogy alert. :/

    This morning my spouse safely travelled to work in a big, heavy four-wheel-drive vehicle, not noticing the high winds. I, however, have stayed at home; it isn’t safe for me to go out, as I only have a bicycle.

    Am I being paranoid? No, of course not. The roads are largely free of large trees which might fall on a car, but the cycle paths are mostly through wooded areas. Every time I take a ride after a stormy night, I pass huge amounts of débris, including large branches and even whole trees. All of which are invisible to the people in cars on the roads, which take entirely different routes to the cycle paths.

    It seems to me that people like ragarth are like the car drivers. Since the storms do not affect their ability to get to wherever they want, safely and without risk of injury, and they cannot see the most of the cycle paths from the roads, they have never had to think about what life is like for non-drivers in stormy weather.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Yet, when someone tells ragarth what life is like for us, is it really appropriate to say firstly that we are imagining what it’s like and then, when we show them the evidence, that we are misinterpreting the data?

    That isn’t legitimate scepticism. That’s sticking your fingers in your ears and saying “Lalalalalalalalalalala!”.

  211. 211
    Inaji

    Gee, two regulars who happen to be gay men show up and tell Ragarth that yes, rape culture is real and all of a sudden, Ragarth claims to have seen the light facts.

    Must be magic.

    After ridiculing every woman who has spoken to you or read you, Ragarth, what plans do you have to actually listen to them? Or is that still off the agenda? Will women have to tote around a gay male spokesperson before you manage to shut your fucking mouth and listen?

  212. 212
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I feel safe taking steps in my life to fight it without risking hurting others by perpetuating a falsity.

    You piece of shit self-centered fucker. Get the fuck out.

  213. 213
    ragarth

    @John Morales

    “Yet, in your #88, you wrote (my emphasis) “Rape culture, as defined by Wikipedia (shoot me if you’re a college professor) is “a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.””

    (When prevaricating, consistency is helpful)”

    Not really sure I understand what you’re saying. Just because something is on wikipedia doesn’t mean its widespread. Anyone can edit wikipedia, and anyone with an issue they’re passionate about is likely to check and see if its on wikipedia.

  214. 214
    consciousness razor

    hyperskepticredulism

    A perfect word.

  215. 215
    John Morales

    [OT + meta]

    BTW, ragarth, that’s twice that you’ve misused ‘espoused’.

    (Look it up)

  216. 216
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Damn, a slow thread suddenly speeded up while I was typing.

  217. 217
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Ragarth just can’t believe the 1 in 6 statistic? Holy shit, would his mind be blown if he knew that was the number that takes into account the lower statistics for women who are less at risk. The statistics for members of certain racial and ethnic minorities and those at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder are much, much higher.

    I guess Indian and mixed-race women are just lying or falling victim to a “meme.” We clearly cannot trust the words of women, or the National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control & Prevention or the U.S. Department of Justice.

    I must’ve just dreamed up nearly every single female in my family who made it to adulthood being victimized at some point. Maybe I dreamed up my own rapes, too, hey?

  218. 218
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Will women have to tote around a gay male spokesperson before you manage to shut your fucking mouth and listen?

    The very thought makes me even angrier. Goddammit men.

  219. 219
    SallyStrange

    Yet, when someone tells ragarth what life is like for us, is it really appropriate to say firstly that we are imagining what it’s like and then, when we show them the evidence, that we are misinterpreting the data?

    It is precisely this that makes it impossible for me to be gracious, rather than angry and suspicious, when someone makes an apparent 180, as Ragath just did.

    Hey Ragath, word to the wise: please absorb this information, and tell your gay friends that being gay isn’t a get-out-of-misogyny-free pass. In other words, don’t grab my boobs. Don’t call me “bitch” or “darling” unless we’re good friends and you already know I’m okay with it. Don’t police my clothes or my body unless you know I want your advice. Don’t barge into my bathroom or bedroom and say, “It’s okay, I’m gay!” Don’t be a fucking sexist. Okay?

    Fuck, but I dislike you and your ilk. I don’t experience racism but I don’t make a point of waltzing into discussions about racism and going, “Hey black people, are you sure you’re not just PARANOID about the level of hostility the average white person has towards you? I don’t know anything about it! But I thought I’d share my uninformed meanderings with y’all! DAMN, YOU BLACK PEOPLE ARE SO ANGRY!”

    I mean seriously. Fuck you.

  220. 220
    mythbri

    @ragarth #207

    Awareness of the issue doesn’t exist in my social sphere, so that’s the first step. I’ve promoted safer dating practices amongst my friends, but awareness of rape culture is a weapon to use against victimization.

    I assume you don’t know many feminists, then.

    Also, rape culture isn’t something that can be used “against victimization”. The point of rape culture awareness is to STOP ALLOWING RAPE TO BE ACCEPTED, AT ANY LEVEL IN SOCIETY.

    It’s not about giving potential victims more “prevention advice”. It’s about speaking up against the attitudes that perpetuate acceptance.

    It’s not allowing people to feel comfortable with joking about rape.

    It’s not allowing people to feel comfortable blaming victims of sexual assault.

    It’s not allowing people to feel comfortable ignoring horrible behavior, as long as that behavior belongs to someone they like, or who is important in some way.

    Rape culture is not about the victims. It’s about the system that enables the rapists.

  221. 221
    Esteleth, [an error occurred while processing this directive]

    Well, it is because men can be trusted to be rational and objective about the whole sexism thing. They aren’t women, getting all upset over it.

  222. 222
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Fuck, but I dislike you and your ilk.

    Word UP, Sally.

  223. 223
    SallyStrange

    People who get upset about injustice that affects them are clearly unreliable witnesses. This is why we all need straight white cis able-bodied neurotypical male spokepersons. Unfortunately they are in a minority and most of them are assholes. It’s a problem.

  224. 224
    ragarth

    @Caine, Fleur du mal

    I don’t care what anyone in this thread thinks about me. What matters to me is striving for a self-consistent world-view and trying to leave the world a better place than it was when I came into it.

    “After ridiculing every woman who has spoken to you or read you, Ragarth, what plans do you have to actually listen to them? Or is that still off the agenda? Will women have to tote around a gay male spokesperson before you manage to shut your fucking mouth and listen?”

    I didn’t ridicule anyone, and if you feel that I ridiculed you, I apologize.

    I valued your responses to me that provided information, and I thank you for the time you spent speaking with me.

  225. 225
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    This is why we all need straight white cis able-bodied neurotypical male spokepersons

    Correction: You also need the gay version. Cuz they’re just as thick as they other kind, but now with more indignation.

  226. 226
    Inaji

    One more time, and this time, Ragarth, try to fucking read and comprehend:

    Change the culture. To rape again and again, these men need silence. They need to know that the right combination of factors — alcohol and sex shame, mostly — will keep their victims quiet. Otherwise, they would be identified earlier and have a harder time finding victims. The women in your life need to be able to talk frankly about sexual assault. They need to be able to tell you, and they need to know that they can tell you, and not be stonewalled, denied, blamed or judged.

    Listen. The men in your lives will tell you what they do. As long as the R word doesn’t get attached, rapists do self-report. The guy who says he sees a woman too drunk to know where she is as an opportunity is not joking. He’s telling you how he sees it. The guy who says, “bros before hos”, is asking you to make a pact.

    The Pact. The social structure that allows the predators to hide in plain sight, to sit at the bar at the same table with everyone, take a target home, rape her, and stay in the same social circle because she can’t or won’t tell anyone, or because nobody does anything if she does. The pact to make excuses, to look for mitigation, to patch things over — to believe that what happens to our friends — what our friends do to our friends — is not “rape-rape”.

    Change the culture. We are not going to pull six or ten or twelve million men out of the U.S. population over any short period, so if we are going to put a dent in the prevalence of rape, we need to change the environment that the rapist operates in. Choose not to be part of a rape-supportive environment. Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk.

  227. 227
    SallyStrange

    I valued your responses to me that provided information

    The ones that contained insults contained the MOST valuable information: i.e., that you were/are being a horrible person. Do NOT pretend that those angry responses were information-free. To do so would be to continue to ridicule us.

  228. 228
    consciousness razor

    I feel safe taking steps in my life to fight it without risking hurting others by perpetuating a falsity.

    You still don’t make a lick of sense. What the fuck would the falsity have been? That rape happens too much and should be actively discouraged, because it isn’t actively discouraged enough? What the fuck would prevent you from believing that?

    I mean, other than misogyny obviously, the only thing I can think of is you being an ignorant, self-important shithead.

  229. 229
    SallyStrange
    This is why we all need straight white cis able-bodied neurotypical male spokepersons

    Correction: You also need the gay version. Cuz they’re just as thick as they other kind, but now with more indignation.

    Oh Josh, you’re so right. We ALL need Spokesgays! Is there a binder for that?

    And you know what’s funny? I automatically wrote “spokespersons,” even though, in this case, I really meant “spokesmen.

  230. 230
    mythbri

    I feel like I’m speaking to the ether. :P

  231. 231
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Sometimes I read a thread by you lovely Pharyngulites and have hope that the world my granddaughter grows up in will be the same safe and accepting place for her as it will be for my grandsons.

    Then a post like this comes along and makes me realise that we have a whole lot of rape-culture dismantling still to do.

    And then ragarth reminds me that we can’t expect any help from the vast majority because it is not only totally invisible to them, but they won’t leave their comfort zone even to have a look.

    If only ONE person would have the decency to take a look without having to be dragged, kicking and screaming, by several dozen others.

    And why do they always ignore information given by those they assume to be women, only to accept the very same information if it comes from someone they assume to be men?

    If I had any hair I’d be tearing it out about now. :(

  232. 232
    Anthony K

    I just finished baking a pan of pot brownies. After this thread, who wants one?

  233. 233
    John Morales

    ragarth:

    Not really sure I understand what you’re saying. Just because something is on wikipedia doesn’t mean its widespread.

    <sigh>

    You cited Wikipedia’s entry, and well afterwards claimed you “only see it espoused by a (relatively) small online group” — this despite Wikipedia’s 71 references in the very article you yourself cited.

    (Did they really all refer to “a (relatively) small online group”?)

  234. 234
    SallyStrange

    I just finished baking a pan of pot brownies. After this thread, who wants one?

    Yo! Pass that over here. I’ll trade you for a magic oatmeal chocolate chip cookie.

  235. 235
    Inaji

    Brownian:

    After this thread, who wants one?

    Me please, and make it a double.

  236. 236
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    I’ll have as many as will fit down the USB, please! =^_^=

    (I’m not crying, it’s frustration, honest)

    (oh, OK, so I am crying. Damn. The combination of horrible and nice messes me up something awful)

  237. 237
    Inaji

    Crispy Christ onna stick. People provided links and passages from actual studies and Douchewiz is still opining over wiki? Oy.

  238. 238
    Anthony K

    Yo! Pass that over here. I’ll trade you for a magic oatmeal chocolate chip cookie.

    [Tries to shove one in a USB port.]

    Hey! Why’s it called a bus? You can’t drive it!

    [Thinks about this for awhile, then wonders why everyone doesn't just carry their own dishes to restaurants. After pondering that for awhile, goes back to shoving brownie crumbs in the USB port.]

    I just realised why it’s not working. I’ve set my browser to disable cookies!

    Fuck, I’m writing these jokes down. This is gold!

  239. 239
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    I’ve got hot chocolate, amaretto and brandy for anyone in need of liquid refreshment. I think you all deserve it after this thread.

  240. 240
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Oh Tigger Gran, no cry! There, there. Have some of this delicious mac and cheese.

  241. 241
    Inaji

    I’ve got hot chocolate, amaretto and brandy for anyone in need of liquid refreshment. I think you all deserve it after this thread.

    Thank you, Caerie, but I think Ragarth The Gay Douchewiz ought to be supplying everyone with drinks. Enough for each person for one year. At least.

  242. 242
    Suido

    I feel safe taking steps in my life to fight it without risking hurting others by perpetuating a falsity.

    This isn’t a philosophy class. This isn’t a group of people on a train and you having to choose whether or not to pull a lever.

    This is real life, and your denial of rape statistics in this forum has caused harm by triggering memories of rape amongst commenters. You subsequently ignored most of the people here, including rape survivors telling their stories.

    You have already hurt others with your ignorant comments.

    WAKE THE FUCK UP.

  243. 243
    Arren ›‹ neverbound

    If only ONE person would have the decency to take a look…

    Just so you know, Tigger_the_Wing, such persons do exist (though I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to our number).

    I’m an able, cis-, white, middle-class ‘Murikan guy who’s attended to more than a few of these discussions — meaning listened (read) with mouth shut (fingers still).

    (No, horde, I don’t want a fucking cookie. I just want to point out that there’s at least “ONE person” who’s endeavored to have the requested “decency to take a look” — and am a better person for it. Relurking now…..)

  244. 244
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Thank you for saying so, arrenfrank. It makes the world feel a little bit lighter:)

  245. 245
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    If only ONE person would have the decency to take a look without having to be dragged, kicking and screaming, by several dozen others.

    I think there are many. They really lurk, and on happy occasions they’ll post to say how reading has changed their views.

    ragarth, in contrast, responds to a recommendation to lurk more with “As per learning from lurking, you’re the only person thus far I’ve gained anything from by posting in this thread.” (ragarth, it shouldn’t be too difficult for you to spot the problem with that response. Or do you need to look up lurking on WP?)

  246. 246
    Inaji

    arrenfrank:

    No, horde, I don’t want a fucking cookie.

    How about a pot brownie?

    Thank you.

  247. 247
    SallyStrange

    I’m inclined to share my cookies with Arrenfrank, even if he doesn’t want one… :)

  248. 248
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Just so you know, Tigger_the_Wing, such persons do exist (though I wouldn’t hazard a guess as to our number).

    See?!

    Thanks, arrenfrank.

  249. 249
    ragarth

    @SC (Salty Current), OM

    Yes, lurking and posting are mutually exclusive.

  250. 250
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    *Comes back from bathroom break*

    *Hugs the most awesome adoptive grandson on the ‘net*

    Goodies!!!

    *Nomnomnomnomnom*

    Thank you, Arrenfrank! =^_^=

    My frustration-meter has dropped below the red line, thanks to your comment!

    Great big granny-hugs to all the lurkers reading this who actually did what Arrenfrank did, and sorry for forgetting you.

  251. 251
    SallyStrange

    *Comes back from bathroom break*

    Ahh, GranTigger, Josh and I were just discussing the Stadium Pal, and David Sedaris’ hilarious mockery of it.* This will definitely raise your spirits, and since you just went to the bathroom, it’s unlikely you’ll pee your pants laughing, as we nearly did the first time we heard it.

    *Can you see youtube in NZ? If not let me know and I’ll find a different link.

  252. 252
    Inaji

    Ragarth, you’re a fucking idiot.

  253. 253
    Arren ›‹ neverbound

    How about a pot brownie?

    Delighted — likewise with Strange cookies, thank you kindly.

    I’ll just bask in the glow of this uncommon Kumbaya moment, now. Rarely has delurking been so enjoyable.

  254. 254
    John Morales

    [meta]

    ragarth: remember this JAQing?

    Is there decent evidence to suggest that the risk of rape is so extreme that someone needs to have two rottweilers, learn martial arts, and rate every man they meet on a rapist scale is more than paranoia?

    (I do)

    What would you now say to a person asking you this “question”?

  255. 255
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Yes, lurking and posting are mutually exclusive.

    WP: “In Internet culture, a lurker is a member of an online community who does not actively participate.” [my emphasis]

    I think the advice to lurk more assumed this involves reading and attempts to understand but not posting. What’s your definition of lurking?

  256. 256
    crowepps

    Alcohol alone is plenty when combined with a total lack of concern in whether the woman survives the experience:

    Police investigating woman’s death; men charged with sexual assault

    According to documents filed in court Hess called police at 11:20 the morning of Nov. 30 to report that a woman he’d been drinking with overnight at his Tudor Road apartment was cold, stiff and not breathing.

    When the woman, described by Henry as an acquaintance of Hess, arrived at the apartment after 6 p.m. the men offered her whiskey, according to charging documents.

    Hess’ younger brother, who was also at the apartment and has not been charged with a crime, told police the men were sipping on their drinks and encouraging the woman to drink more. The woman became “very drunk” according to the brother’s account in charging document.

    Officers found one nearly empty pint and two empty fifths of whiskey as well as beer cans at the apartment.

    Police say the men both had sex with the woman throughout the night after she was unconscious.

    Thomas is alleged to have taken photos of her on his cell phone while she was incapacitated.

    Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2012/12/03/2712126/police-investigating-womans-death.html#storylink=cpy

  257. 257
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I’m making Thin Mint Martinis to go with Brownian’s Herbally Enhanced Brownies…who wants in?

  258. 258
    Valde

    Notice how similar all of these trolls are to one another?

    Nolajim had the same basic tone

    All, unfailingly polite, well spoken, yet with an air of condescension

    But, he’s just trying to understand! Why you silly wimmenz getting so emotional! He thanks you for your input, but really, he needs more facts, he just can’t take anyone at their word! He just wants to get to the bottom of it!

  259. 259
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    arrenfrank:
    I hope you choose to lurk less and post more. You are welcome here.

  260. 260
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    *Watches video*

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha clunk*

    *Picks (thankfully dry =-_o= ) self off floor*

    *Wipes more tears off face*

    =^_^=

    Thank you for that! Bookmarked to inflict on show to certain friends. Without warning.

    *Evil grin*

  261. 261
    Inaji

    arrenfrank:

    Rarely has delurking been so enjoyable.

    I’m glad you did. It gets old, fighting the good fight, especially when you’ve been doing it for decades on end. People like yourself make a huge difference in how much energy we have to keep on fighting.

  262. 262
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Oh shit, crowepps. That’s utterly vile. Poor woman.

    And there have been so many cases like that one.

    Ragarth, are we really ‘paranoid’ to fear that it could one day happen to us?

  263. 263
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    bobo:
    To the spanking parlor with you AND the back of the line for Brownians special services. I had put Nolajim out of my mind (and suspect Janine may have too). Now you have to go and dredge up his horrible name. No idea who is in charge of spanking at the moment, but your butt shall be red :o

  264. 264
    mythbri

    ragarth, crowepps’ comment at #254 is a prime example of rape culture.

    Having sex with an unconscious or impaired woman isn’t “real” rape – she didn’t say no, did she? So it’s not really rape to fuck her while she’s intoxicated.

    That’s rape culture. I doubt that either of those two men think of themselves as rapists or predators. They probably congratulated themselves on finding a way to “cheat” the game of sex. To get sex without actually going through onerous process of getting enthusiastic consent.

    That’s rape culture. The way that people talk themselves out of believing what they do, or their friends, or others, is rape.

  265. 265
    Suido

    @SC (Salty Current), OM #253

    My definition of lurking was largely shaped by the following excerpt from Good Omens:

    Two of them lurked in the ruined graveyard. Two shadowy figures, one hunched and squat, the other lean and menacing, both of them Olympic-grade lurkers. If Bruce Springsteen had ever recorded “Born to Lurk,” these two would have been on the album cover. They had been lurking in the fog for an hour now, but they had been pacing themselves and could lurk for the rest of the night if necessary, with still enough sullen menace left for a final burst of lurking around dawn.

    The internet has come a long way since then, but I’m sure there are plenty of inefficiently malevolent demons hanging around web 2.0.

  266. 266
    ragarth

    @Tigger_the_Wing

    No, my mind’s been changed on the topic. Others in this thread have brought me to the light.

    I also didn’t mean the connotation associated with ‘paranoid.’ It was a poor word choice on my part and I apologized for it.

  267. 267
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Also, mythbri, buying into that way of thinking is a way of pretending to ourselves that what happened to us wasn’t ‘really’ rape.

    After all, we DID like the guy; we DID go back to his place for ‘coffee’; it was probably our OWN fault that we didn’t realise that we’d had more to drink than we realised; why ruin a man’s whole life for one ‘minor’ incident that we can’t even remember properly?

    and so on, and so on.

    Victims second-guess ourselves all the time. We know that we’ll be second-guessed by others if we report (even if we are believed that anything happened at all, and that’s far from certain) so we rarely report. Those of us with a good case who do report only have a small chance of getting it as far as court, where, even there, the perpetrator has a pretty good chance of getting let off.

    The rapists in prison are probably right in thinking that they are the ‘unlucky’ ones, as statistics show that nearly all rapists are free to rape over and over again with impunity.

    And victims carry the greatest burden, a life-long sentence of being careful, of policing ourselves, our dress, our behaviour, where we go, with whom and when.

    Ragarth, and people like you: don’t ever dare tell us we’re paranoid.

  268. 268
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Oops. Cross-posted.

  269. 269
    mythbri

    @ragarth #264

    Try demonstrating some more awareness then. Preview your crap before you post it. You could try engaging in what people have been telling you, too.

  270. 270
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Others in this thread have brought me to the light.

    Detail would be appreciated. People here really care about these issues, and we care about doing what we can to bring progress. It would be helpful to know what changed your mind.

  271. 271
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Anyone else having trouble accessing FTB? I keep getting weird stuff.

  272. 272
    Inaji

    Tigger, yeah, I got cloudflare for a while.

  273. 273
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Anyone else having trouble accessing FTB? I keep getting weird stuff.

    Yeah, it went away for a few minutes.

  274. 274
    SallyStrange

    Thank you for that! Bookmarked to inflict on show to certain friends. Without warning.

    *Evil grin*

    Heheheh! Watch out, New Zealand!

    ——————-

    Still waiting for ragarth’s response to this:

    You cited Wikipedia’s entry, and well afterwards claimed you “only see it espoused by a (relatively) small online group” — this despite Wikipedia’s 71 references in the very article you yourself cited.

    (Did they really all refer to “a (relatively) small online group”?)

    H/t John Morales

  275. 275
    nimuae

    Caine, Fleur du mal:

    First, thank you for your comments. I’m new here so it was nice to hear some compassion from the ether.

    Jesus, that must have been terrifying.

    It was terrifying (though not as terrifying as telling my parents.)

    The rapists in prison are probably right in thinking that they are the ‘unlucky’ ones, as statistics show that nearly all rapists are free to rape over and over again with impunity.

    This is the truly terrifying part, tho. He’s out there. He probably doesn’t even remember after all this time. Even if he did, he probably never thought of it as rape, anyway.

    Hell, he’s problably married with kids the same age that I was when it happened – daughters maybe – and enjoying life.

  276. 276
    ragarth

    @Tigger_the_Wing

    Yeah, looks like they’re doing codework on the sight or something.

    @Josh, Official SpokesGay

    post #190 was the tail end of it. Rephrasing the whole thing is tiresome, but the short and sweet is that I was provided evidence showing it existing in sufficient subcultures to be indicative of the larger culture.

  277. 277
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    So, ragarth, it didn’t occur to you that the research was done on those subcultures precisely because they were representative of wider culture?

    *Sigh*

  278. 278
    hyrax

    Rape culture anecdote ahoy!

    I was raped about a year and a half ago, by a “friend.” When I reported the rape a year after the fact– spurred on by a creepy threatening note hand-delivered to my apartment (thank fuck I’ve moved since then)– I was questioned by the police for four hours, not given any break or more refreshment than a small dispenser cup of water. The (female) police officer and (female) detective pushed and pushed to know if I had a relationship with the man, if I was attracted to him. But you know what? IT DOESN’T FUCKING MATTER. Even if I was cheating on my partner with him, as he claimed, even if I did find him attractive, it doesn’t change the fact that he held me down and forcibly had sex with me against my will. That he refused to accept the word “no.”

    The officers also came right out and accused me of making up the rape claim to exonerate myself for cheating on my boyfriend, because apparently that’s more likely than being raped and the rapist lying about it. It took me bursting into tears and simultaneously screaming at them before they backed off and said “No no, we believe you! We just had to be sure!”

    And THAT, ragarth, is rape culture in action. Finding every reason to disbelieve or minimalize a woman’s experience.Even other women buy into it.

    (I reported the rape in July. They said they’d call me within a few weeks’ time to ask follow-up questions. I haven’t heard a word since.)

  279. 279
    ragarth

    @Tigger_the_Wing

    No, they’re not. College campuses are not indicative of the larger culture, for instance, and this is the one with the best data. There are several demographic and cultural changes when it comes to colleges and universities that make them rather different from the rest of the world and this can make them less than ideal for assessing larger populations.

    The other 3 were naval personel, gamers, and the UK judiciary. Of those, the gamers are the most ‘generalized’ of the groups, and even that’s pretty fair demographically from the rest of the US population.

    All 4 together, however, I feel represents a sufficient slice to be indicative.

  280. 280
    Arren ›‹ neverbound

    Thanks for the welcome, Tony. I may well emerge from the murk; time will tell. (It’d probably do me good, as I’m pretty much socially isolated in meatspace.)

    Caine, your perseverance is inspirational. I’d urge everyone who continues fighting to consider the possibility that JAQoffs are not actually representative of people who have any real inquisitiveness concerning these issues. If they had, it’s doubtful they’d continually engage in trite contrivances (such as dismissive pseudo-philosophical “thought-experiments“*) in lieu of listening and learning.

    Suido, we lurkers are not malevolent by definition, for Discordia’s sake! Broad brush much? (Fun novel, though…..)

    * Looking at you, Vacula…..

  281. 281
    SallyStrange

    HELLLOOOOOOOOOO RAGARTH!!

    You cited Wikipedia’s entry, and well afterwards claimed you “only see it espoused by a (relatively) small online group” — this despite Wikipedia’s 71 references in the very article you yourself cited.

    (Did they really all refer to “a (relatively) small online group”?)

    Any day now…

  282. 282
    SallyStrange

    All 4 together, however, I feel represents a sufficient slice to be indicative.

    Thank GOODness we had some “objective” evidence! Because, you know, the testimony of millions and millions and millions of women is just not enough.

  283. 283
    SallyStrange

    Are you a sociologist, ragarth? On what do you base your assessments of what constitutes a sufficiently representative slice of the population?

  284. 284
    Inaji

    Hyrax:

    I was questioned by the police for four hours, not given any break or more refreshment than a small dispenser cup of water. The (female) police officer and (female) detective pushed and pushed to know if I had a relationship with the man, if I was attracted to him.

    Unfortunately, this is all too common. My rape was one of the less common, a stranger rape. Most everyone here knows the story, I am one of three women who survived this…person, he was in the habit of leaving no witnesses.

    After I was out of the hospital and the asshole was caught, we had to deal with repeated questioning and, of course, the trial. Two fucking years I got to endure nasty ass questioning and many snide remarks along with outright bullshit, such as “what were doing out after dark in a dress? Don’t you know any better?” And that last came from the prosecuting attorney.

    It absolutely infuriates me when asshats like Ragarth come along and not only deny rape statistics (along with ignoring all of us statistics when we talk about our experiences), they refuse to understand why those stats are on the low side, given how many women never report.

    By the way, I became a rape report advocate after my rape, and it was very therapeutic work, making sure the standard badgering and sexism got shut down immediately.

    Nimuae:

    First, thank you for your comments. I’m new here so it was nice to hear some compassion from the ether.

    There are a *lot* of rape survivors here among the regulars. These threads can be very difficult to take.

  285. 285
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Hear that, ragarth? When even someone with Caine’s experience, the kind of rape that everyone thinks of as ‘real rape’, gets treated as if she’s making it up or contributed to her own victimization in some way, by the very people who needed her as a witness what hope do people who were date raped, or raped by a spouse or other relative, have of convincing anyone?

    What you don’t seem to get is that the ’1 in 6′ figure understates the prevalence of rape.

    The true figure is much, much higher.

    Victims know that they’ll likely be treated very badly if they report, which means not only re-living the assault over and over again while describing what happened in minute detail to hostile strangers*, but possibly losing their friends and social circle over it if the rapist is well liked.

    *Which means getting no chance to blot it out, to help psychological recovery.

    So, very few report.

  286. 286
    Old At Heart

    @140. I know this was a while back in the commentary, but…

    This rebuttal is one that irritates me because I hear the list every single fscking day.

    Victim blaming, at least here, is universal. I carry a knife with me. If it’s a casual outing going later than 11pm, I’ve got a barbed chain in my bag (I find the “showing off” teens back off if they think you’re crazy). I keep my cell phone on, and visibly in my off-hand, though not actively using it. I keep my hair tied back, and tucked into my jacket. My free hand is usually tucked into the inside pocket of the jacket, with a high-power flashlight.

    You know why? Robbery. Victim blaming exists everywhere. “Well why the hell were you counting the money at the ATM instead of getting safely home first?!” is not all that different, conceptually, from standard rape victim blaming. Every time I hear “No where in the world does victim blaming occur except with rape”…

    [b][i]You[/i][/b] get a knife to your back, relay the story, and hear from everyone “well everyone knows that part of town is sketchy”, then have even your indignation dismissed because, clearly, victim blaming is only for rape victims. Luckily, I’ve never been that, though I am a touch paranoid and introverted, which DOES HELP! Friends who go to the downtown bar district more than me get robbed more than me, or need to fight off muggers more. Per-capita rape statistics are under-represented of total rapes overall because of the fact that if a woman is raped, she is likely to be raped more than once (a lot more). This means there [i]are[/i] influencing factors, otherwise the 1/6 would rarely have a repeat case by chance, so accept that and move on with your arguments. My mom taught me to never leave a purse or wallet in plain view in a car, and that seems like sound advice, even if it is more convenient to do so. So does avoiding the Jane and Finch area to not get shot, even if there’s good deals at some of the stores there and I’d like to go. Useful pre-emptively, useless and marginalizing post-emptively. It doesn’t mean you [i]should[/i] be restricted, but I am, and it means there is a systemic problem somewhere. And even with all the precautions, crime still happens.

    We live in a VERY messed up culture. But pretending that victim-blaming occurs exclusively only for rape, to me, gives fuel for the MRAs, as it is a joke to rebut (and you’re not trying to convince them, but the audience). So FSCK you and everyone who does it, it weakens the cause and marginalizes victims of other crimes at the same time. Don’t fight the MRA, educate the audience. It’s like dealing with a creationist, only a much more hostile topic: You won’t convince them, you’re doing this to convince the onlookers.

    In short: Implying that a women who (going through the list at random) is alone, rip-roaring drunk, inviting random men into her house, while she wears just a bikini and no shoes, yelling “I’m so wasted! I’m so wasted!” whenever she’s out at a bar and follows it up by kissing the closest living person has the [i]exact same odds[/i] of being raped [by proper definition: Any unwanted sex at all or convincing due to outside influence] as one who never drinks to get drunk, always has trustworthy friends nearby, never lets anyone into their house except those friends, doesn’t yell when speaking, and always wears, I dunno, for sake of a stupid comparison point plate-and-mail armour with spiked greaves… You’re a moron. These straws are proposed to exist PRECISELY FOR THE REASON YOU’RE REBUTTING WHILE SUPPORTING THE EXISTENCE OF THE STRAWS! And then to turn about and say that only rape victims could ever be victim blamed is disheartening, to be mild. Warning of all those things is A GOOD THING. If I was told NOT to go to that bank after dark because it was a high-risk area, I’d not have been robbed. Not “probably not”, “would not”. Doesn’t help me NOW, but would have pre-emptively. If a bar in the area gets a reputation for making sure women get home safely, I think it’d be more popular with women aware of this than the bar famous for turning a blind eye to questionable actions, and letting a woman know of the reputations of both bars before something happens? Good. Afterwards? Not good. You’re not talking to MRAs, I can’t stress that enough, you’re talking to the lurkers. Make this point clear to them: Pre-event is fine, give advice if you want! No one here is actually advocating NOT telling someone of a potential danger before it happens. That would be stupid. Post-event is the bad one, don’t offer “advice” there, only understanding.

    (By the by, I’m a drive-by commenter, but have a great evening folks! Looks like a fun thread.)

  287. 287
    mythbri

    More helpful prevention advice:

    Don’t be in a war zone.
    Don’t wear a burka.
    Don’t wear a short skirt.
    Don’t wear sweat pants.
    Don’t be female.
    Don’t be male.
    Don’t be trans*gendered.
    Don’t be sexually experienced.
    Don’t be sexually inexperienced.
    Don’t go on dates.
    Don’t be around uncles.
    Don’t be poor.
    Don’t be homeless.
    Don’t allow someone to lock you in a room.
    Don’t consent to one kind of sex but not another.
    Don’t be asleep.
    Don’t be beaten unconscious.
    Don’t be in the military.
    Don’t be sold to your husband.
    Don’t be a sex worker.
    Don’t be forced into the sex trade.

    Don’t be raped.

  288. 288
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    hyrax:
    My deepest sympathies. I am so sorry.

  289. 289
    mythbri

    @Old At Heart #284

    I was trotting out “prevention” advice (i.e., victim-blaming) to prove a point. I certainly did not intend it to be taken seriously, and I apologize if it came off that way.

    What I was trying to emphasize is that there are a lot of vague, contradictory “rules” that people – women – are supposed to follow, and if they don’t then, well, “what did they expect?”

    My posts were intended as satire of that victim-blaming culture.

  290. 290
    mesh

    It’s just amazing to me how the concept of rape culture is simultaneously strictly enforced and vehemently denied. On one hand if you remain vigilant around men you’re seen as paranoid, delusional, and seeing all men as rapists. On the other if you do get raped after letting your guard down it’s used against you to argue that you clearly wanted it because you didn’t take every possible precaution.

  291. 291
    Inaji

    Old at Heart, you completely missed the point of Mythbri’s post. That happens when you drive-by at speed. The point of the post was to try to hammer a point home to Ragarth, about the impossibility of changing culture via prevention techniques.

  292. 292
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Hypothetical future

    “Granny, what’s ‘rape’ mean?”

    “It’s when someone has sex with someone when the other person doesn’t want them to. It used to happen a lot in the old days.”

    “Really?! I can’t imagine that…” Goes off shaking her head…

    Wouldn’t that be wonderful?

  293. 293
    Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk

    Wouldn’t that be wonderful?

    Yes. Yes it would. When stories like Hyrax’s and nimuae’s and Caine’s and everyone else’s (not only the actual crimes itself perpetuated against them but the absolutely atrocious way these people were treated in the aftermath of those crimes) are unimaginable, that would be…

    Well.

    nimuae

    This is the truly terrifying part, tho. He’s out there. He probably doesn’t even remember after all this time. Even if he did, he probably never thought of it as rape, anyway.

    Hell, he’s problably married with kids the same age that I was when it happened – daughters maybe – and enjoying life.

    That is really, truly terrifying.

    I was raped and molested by a close family member over a long period when I was a kid, like 6-9 years old. He was a teenager when it started and I always shrugged it off the way us victims do (he was young, we were KIDS, it wasn’t THAT bad, he really paid attention to me, it wasn’t ALWAYS with the bad stuff – we had lots of fun and playing too, we still have a GREAT relationship, everyone loves him, he probably doesn’t even remember, yadda yadda yadda, you know how that song goes) even though if anyone else told me the same story I’d have been on it and seen it for what it was like white on rice.

    Then his young daughter, who I loved dearly, committed suicide last year.

    So yeah. Totally, truly terrifying.

  294. 294
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Oh, Gen, that is horrifying.

    I don’t know what to say.

  295. 295
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Gen, Hyrax, nimuae
    I’m really, truely sorry for what happened to you.

    +++++

    College campuses are not indicative of the larger culture, for instance, and this is the one with the best data.

    Who the fuck do you think college students are?
    Aliens that arrive from another planet for 4-6 years and then disappear again?.
    The victims will have to live with that fuck for the whole damn rest of their lives. Getting your degree doesn’t magically erase the night you were half-conscious an pinned to your bed while some dudebros had fun.
    What do you think where the rapists come from and where they learned those attitudes? Their (mostly) somebody’s son, they learned that bitches ain’t fucking shit from the adults around them. And then they grow up, they leave college, they get out into the world and the workplace. Do you think that they will be any different towards a female employee and suddenly respect that the fact that she’s drunk doens’t mean you can fuck her? And who do you think raises the next generation of dudebros?
    And who the fuck do you think the campus police officers are, the decans and counsellors and tutors who tell the female stundents that they have to take care not to get raped, who question them instead of the perp, who dismiss their complains, who turn a blind eye towards the frat parties and so on? Lizard people?

  296. 296
    Khantron, the alien that only loves

    [blockquote]In short: Implying that a women who (going through the list at random) is alone, rip-roaring drunk, inviting random men into her house, while she wears just a bikini and no shoes, yelling “I’m so wasted! I’m so wasted!” whenever she’s out at a bar and follows it up by kissing the closest living person has the [i]exact same odds[/i] of being raped [by proper definition: Any unwanted sex at all or convincing due to outside influence] as one who never drinks to get drunk, always has trustworthy friends nearby, never lets anyone into their house except those friends, doesn’t yell when speaking, and always wears, I dunno, for sake of a stupid comparison point plate-and-mail armour with spiked greaves… You’re a moron.[/blockquote]

    What if I like to get rip-roaring drunk, inviting random men over to my house while wearing just a bikini and no shoes, and yelling “I’m so wasted!” Then kissing the closest living person. Do I have to choose to not do my preferred activities because the justice system and society at large can’t be arsed to do something about rape culture?

    And your insinuation that yelling causes rape is a new one.

  297. 297
    Louis

    Caine, #126,

    Internetz searches be wimmin’s work. Apparently.

    Well, I think you’re right here. I asked for a link to the much vaunted debunking of Schrodinger’s Rapist and I have yet to get one.

    I did google it myself, but it was all so overwhelming it confuzzled my light blue, furry, feminist male frothing ideologue brain.* Why won’t a real manly MRA man with real manliness link it for me to save me from my ideological prison?

    Louis

    * Oh you get to have pink, fluffy laydee brainz and we have nothing? SEXISM! MISANDRY!! FEMINAZIS!!!!

  298. 298
    vaiyt

    @Old At Heart:

    Tell me back when police and justice keep finding excuses to let robbers free. Tell me back when people who were mugged are afraid to report their crime because everyone will dismiss and condemn THEM instead of the mugger. Tell me back when muggers can keep being respected members of society without ever being taken to task for it. And so on.

    No, the victim-blaming that goes on with rape and other crimes isn’t the same. I’m from a country where mugging is way more common than in the US. I know several people who were assaulted and robbed at gunpoint. The situations aren’t even remotely equivalent.

    Implying that a women who (going through the list at random) is alone, rip-roaring drunk, inviting random men into her house, while she wears just a bikini and no shoes, yelling “I’m so wasted! I’m so wasted!” whenever she’s out at a bar and follows it up by kissing the closest living person has the [i]exact same odds[/i] of being raped [by proper definition: Any unwanted sex at all or convincing due to outside influence] as one who never drinks to get drunk, always has trustworthy friends nearby, never lets anyone into their house except those friends, doesn’t yell when speaking, and always wears, I dunno, for sake of a stupid comparison point plate-and-mail armour with spiked greaves… You’re a moron.

    Two reasons why your argument is particularly ridiculous:

    1) Acquaintance rape is more common than stranger rape. So yeah, those “trustworthy” friends? One of them is probably a rapist.

    Not yelling while speaking? Of course, because being proper and meek is such a shield against rape. Rape is the just punishment for uppity women, isn’t it?

    2) In the real world, we don’t have just these two options. More likely, the woman was JUST wasted, JUST at the wrong place, JUST wearing something that might be seen as provocative (which doesn’t seem to increase the risk of rape at all but w/e), JUST at a bar, JUST kissed someone, JUST let her door open, JUST flirting, JUST unarmed (etc. etc. etc.), but any single one of these elements is grounds to dismiss her claims and blame her for the crime.

    Your simile is a ridiculous strawman.

    Go home, drive-by troll, and never come back.

  299. 299
    Louis

    Giliell, #293,

    Lizard people?

    Well, duh! Of course they are lizard people, you silly goose. They have to be, right?

    After all it would be totally impossible for various unplanned aspects of society/culture to interact in such a way as to bring out apathy or even denial towards extant horrors/inequalities. Because that never happens.

    Pffff, complex interactions indeed. Lizard people are a far more plausible and parsimonious explanation.

    Louis

  300. 300
    ragarth

    @Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus

    Student populations under represent people over 30, minorities, and large swaths of the socioeconomic spectrum. Politically, they shift left vs the greater population, are more educated, and live under a highly artificial social structure that few other areas of society have.

    Student populations (and the study at question was specifically 2000 *students*) are also generally fresh out of their homes on their very first ventures beyond their parent’s watchful eye–except those with helicopter parents, and I feel sorry for PZ regarding those. This makes them rather immature places.

    Given all this, you cannot generalize to the larger populace from college students, and you should be critical of any study that tries to do so.

  301. 301
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    ragarth, cupcake, I’m aware of the problems with research done only on student populations.
    But you didn’t counter any of my three arguments, you especially didn’t respond to group #3 which is all the grown-ups who are in charge of running the thing who do nothing to stop rape culture on campus but everything to increase it, like telling female students that they have to watch their drinks, that they mustn’t walk home alone, that they mustn’t allow any guy into their room or go into his, that they mustn’t get drunk and that they should dress moderately, and who will go out of their way to tell the victim how she broke those rules and therefore it’s her fault.
    Also, are you aware of the typical public, and by that I mean out of college public, response when a rape victim reports one of your nice, white upper middle-class boys for rape?
    And still those students go on in their lives as victims and as rapists. It’s something that never ends. And given other statistics that clearly show that poor and minority women have a higher life-time risk of rape and assault then the critique you can mostly fling at your white middle-class college students study is that is fucking paints too rosy a picture

  302. 302
    Have a Balloon

    Implying that a women who (going through the list at random) is alone, rip-roaring drunk, inviting random men into her house, while she wears just a bikini and no shoes, yelling “I’m so wasted! I’m so wasted!” whenever she’s out at a bar and follows it up by kissing the closest living person has the [i]exact same odds[/i] of being raped [by proper definition: Any unwanted sex at all or convincing due to outside influence] as one who never drinks to get drunk, always has trustworthy friends nearby, never lets anyone into their house except those friends, doesn’t yell when speaking, and always wears, I dunno, for sake of a stupid comparison point plate-and-mail armour with spiked greaves… You’re a moron.

    Or we could look at this a different way.

    Rapists don’t pick their victims at random. Rapists target women who seem vulnerable, who maybe appear to have less self-confidence, who could be coerced, who might have poor tolerance for drink, who aren’t likely to tell, who aren’t likely to be believed…etc.

    So a woman wandering around in a bikini in a bar getting drunk and kissing random people according to her whim – that’s a woman who is in control even when really drunk, who displays self-confidence, whose attitude might broadcast “I don’t put up with anybody’s shit”. Sure, she ticks all the boxes for victim-blaming, and that might be enough for Mr. Predator. On the other hand, maybe she’s more likely to put up a fight. A woman who’s out drinking in bars all the time in a bikini has probably been hit on a hell of a lot. She’s probably used to having to say no.

    Whereas woman B – it’s easy to get her alone. She doesn’t drink much so is unlikely to be able to tolerate large amounts of alcohol. If he spikes her drink she might mistake that for being too drunk and not get suspicious. He can gain her trust by starting a friendship. She never yells when speaking, so she’s internalised messages that women should stay quiet and not put up a fuss. She might not want to hurt his feelings by saying no to his advances, and she’s unlikely to report a rape. Sure, she’s wearing the armour, but once she’s incapacitated, that doesn’t pose much of a problem.

    So when we look at that situation through the eyes of Real Rapist, rather than through the eyes of Stereotype Uncontrollable Lust Rapist, it’s a lot less clear cut. Either of these women could be an appealing target for Real Rapist. It just depends on which aspect of rape culture he wants to rely on. He could go for Woman A, and play the ‘she was asking for it’ card, or he could go for Woman B, and play the ‘I’m her best friend, not some stranger in the bushes, she was obviously mistaken and confused’ card.

    Woman A gets raped, and gets blamed for it because she was acting provocatively.

    Woman B gets raped, and gets blamed for it because she didn’t fight back or say no.

    Real Rapist never even gets arrested, because he knew exactly who to target, and how to go about it, in order to ensure that was the case.

  303. 303
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    ragarth, you think we haven’t heard your fuckwitted denialism before? You aren’t changing any minds here, as you lack EVIDENCE. Your OPINION is that of an MRA troll and is ignored for self-serving idiocy it is. Move along to less knowledgeable pastures elsewhere.

  304. 304
    Cas

    @mythbri #218

    It’s not about giving potential victims more “prevention advice”. It’s about speaking up against the attitudes that perpetuate acceptance.

    It’s not allowing people to feel comfortable with joking about rape.

    It’s not allowing people to feel comfortable blaming victims of sexual assault.

    It’s not allowing people to feel comfortable ignoring horrible behavior, as long as that behavior belongs to someone they like, or who is important in some way.

    Rape culture is not about the victims. It’s about the system that enables the rapists.

    This.

    Exactly this.

    There’s been some controversy’s within UK universities recently with the ‘lad culture’ and how ‘rape jokes aren’t offensive it’s just banter’ and that women need to ‘stop taking things so seriously’.

    What people don’t seem to grasp is that by making jokes about it they normalise it, make it more acceptable. By treating rape as ‘a bit of banter’ they make it far less likely for people to speak out about rape for fear of being laughed at.

    I’m a survivor of sexual abuse which a few of my closest friends do know, and yet they see nothing wrong with using rape a source of humour. *This* is rape culture and this is what needs to be tackled.

  305. 305
    broboxley OT

    rape culture at the heart of the american government
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/us/native-americans-struggle-with-high-rate-of-rape.html?pagewanted=all

    he issue of sexual assaults on American Indian women has become one of the major sources of discord in the current debate between the White House and the House of Representatives over the latest reauthorization of the landmark Violence Against Women Act of 1994.
    A Senate version, passed with broad bipartisan support, would grant new powers to tribal courts to prosecute non-Indians suspected of sexually assaulting their Indian spouses or domestic partners. But House Republicans, and some Senate Republicans, oppose the provision as a dangerous expansion of the tribal courts’ authority

    cant have the victims going to a sympathetic court for help, they might get a white man in trouble

  306. 306
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Crowd:

    Should we take RAGARTH’s word @297, or ask for proof? It cuts both ways.

  307. 307
    nimuae

    Caine, Fleur du mal

    Two fucking years I got to endure nasty ass questioning and many snide remarks along with outright bullshit, such as “what were doing out after dark in a dress? Don’t you know any better?” And that last came from the prosecuting attorney.

    I’m sitting here banging my head against the desk.

    Good for you for fighting back and assuredly saving lives.

    Gen, Uppity Ingrate

    Then his young daughter, who I loved dearly, committed suicide last year.
    So yeah. Totally, truly terrifying.

    I am SO SORRY.

    This makes me cry – there are no words.

  308. 308
    nimuae

    Oh, and to address the OT.

    I don’t think the straws are a bad idea (once due dilligence has been done to make sure the reagents aren’t going to cause problems). I don’t think people (men or women), who would be likely to be educated/motivated enough to use such a device, live in such a two dimensional world to think that some ‘magic straw’ is going to save them. As far as I’m concerned, it’s just one more tool that people can use.

  309. 309
    Gregory Greenwood

    @ ragarth;

    I am going to continue assuming good faith on your part, and so I am glad to hear that you have come to accept the existence of rape culture. Having stated such acceptance, I imagine that you may be unhappy with the fact that many commenters still view you as a potential MRA troll. There are very good reasons why this is the case.

    First of all, you need to understand that this is not the first dance for the regulars here – I have only been commenting on Pharyngula since 2009, and I have already participated in dozens of threads that have followed the pattern of a topic dealing with rape attracting commenters who all replicate the same set of arguments that go along the lines that “rape is bad, but is it all that prevalent? Aren’t women just being paranoid? Doesn’t rape culture amount to discrimination against men?” etc. More established commenters have been dealing with these topics year in and year out for decades – on literally hundreds of occasions – and each time they have to rehash the same arguments, deal with the same hypersceptical attitude that implies that the victims of rape are either delusional or liars by nature, and that feminists are engaged in some evil conspiracy to discredit all men.

    This discussion was also relatively short by the standards of most such threads. It is not uncommon for such a thread to run to many hundreds of comments, with the rape culture ‘sceptic’ endlessly repeating the same arguments and phrases that serve to trigger rape survivors, sometimes unwittingly, but equally all too often deliberately.

    In many cases, someone who starts off claiming to be ‘just asking questions’ will, after an extended period of tone trolling and feigning an outraged concern for the lack of ‘civility’ on Pharyngula, will suddenly change tack and will spew a horrifying tirade of misogyny that includes damning all progressives that care about women’s rights as ‘feminazis’ hell bent on the destruction of men, making jokes that less conventionally attractive women should consider themselves lucky that anyone would want to rape them, and declaring that feminists who try to raise awareness about rape culture are preventing people from having sex and thus will lead directly to the fall of civilisation (note that none of these examples are hyperbole for effect – we have met actual MRAs who have made all of these claims). And all this doesn’t even take into account the actions of driveby trolls such as Old at Heart @ 284, who do such things as make offensive and frankly stupid (not to mention wilfully triggering) comparisons between rape and such things as robbery, and then vanish into the ether with a false sense of some kind of victory.

    This stuff gets wearing even for those of us who have never undergone the trauma of rape, and I cannot imagine how terribly painful it must be for rape survivors. It is no surprise that when yet another person turns up replicating the same old and oft-debunked arguments that rape culture exists only in the minds of feminists – doubly so when loaded terms like ‘paranoid’ and ‘scaremongering’ are employed – the regular commenters here react with fully understandable vigor, and are slow to accept claims that the newcomer has suddenly ‘seen the light’ (so to speak) when such claims in the past have often pressaged full blown misogynistic rants about the notional evils of our supposedly matriarchal, misandranist society.

    As a parallel, imagine that you were a regular commenter on a series of threads about gay rights and the continuing prevalence of often violent homophobia in society. Then imagine that on every single thread even tangentially related to that topic you encountered at least one (and often several) new commenters who state that they are of course against homophobia, but is it really as bad as all that? Is it not the case that gay people are simply being paranoid about the threaty of violence, and that gay rights campaigners are scaremongering when they say that violent homophobia and the social attitudes that enable it are still widespread in our society? And what if a culture of violent homophobia as a widespread social maliase doesn’t even really exist (contrary to the evidence)? Doesn’t making a song and dance about ‘gay bashing’ risk undermining attempts to secure greater rights for gay people with regard to such things as marriage equality?

    Imagine that some of these people go even further, and delight in inventing increasingly ludicrous scenarios in the hope of finding some hypothetical situation in which the commentariat will agree homophobic violence really isn’t all that bad, or that engaging in discrimination against someone because of their sexual orientation isn’t really homophobia (going into ridicuilous scenarios like “what if a madman was holding a school full of children hostage, and was going to start killing one every quarter of an hour unless a public act of discrimination against gay people was performed – wouldn’t it be alright then?”).

    And then things start to get ugly, with the worst of these new commenters claiming that gay rights activists are heterophobic cryptofascists hell bent on destroying all straight relationships because they are the ‘true’ bigots. That gay people are the bane of society, and that gay people as ‘uppity’ as those on the thread probably suffer violence simply because they are ‘asking for it’, and indeed deserve to do so, and generally that such violence would stop altogether if gay people simply shut up and learned their proper place.

    Now imagine that this doesn’t happen once, or twice, or ten times or a hundred – but every time the topic comes up over a period of decades. How would that make you feel? How would you respond when you go to a new thread about the issue of homophobia, only to find that yet another new commenter has come out of the woodwork and – without bothering to read up on the issues or listen to the experiences of those within the gay community who have encountered discrimination and violence – opened their post with “I am against homopobia, but are you sure that it is really as bad as all that? Aren’t you overreacting? Is this not really more about the paranoia of gay people than any widespreasd social problem…?”

    Is it not possible that you would react as the people here have reacted to your posts?

  310. 310
    Valde

    Another example of how rape culture is normalized – I was watching a show on CNN about a college girl who was raped. After a year she spoke out about it, and is trying to help others.

    She said that it took her so long to speak up about the rape b/c all of her FEMALE friends made excuses for the rapist “well you know how men are” “well if a guy is into you, he just can’t control himself, its nautral” and “pfft your rape is so *last year*” and so on

    Even among women, rape is normalized. Accepted. Just a part of life. Doesn’t reallly exist. Don’t make a big deal about it.

    Disheartening and disgusting.

  311. 311
    Nepenthe

    This apparently didn’t go through last night: Only because I’m feeling really fucking generous today: Social justice link roundup

    Can you show evidence that this is endemic?

    Go fuck yourself. Really. Or do something else that keeps you from typing.

  312. 312
    Nepenthe

    Just because something is on wikipedia doesn’t mean its widespread. Anyone can edit wikipedia, and anyone with an issue they’re passionate about is likely to check and see if its on wikipedia.

    *puts on Wikipedian hat*

    For fuck’s sake, do a Google Scholar search or something. Why would you ever stop research with Wikipedia!? Don’t you know how that shit is made!?

    *takes off Wikipedian hat*

  313. 313
    Inaji

    bobo:

    Even among women, rape is normalized.

    Ya don’t say. Bobo, have you been reading or are you just digging for news articles and the like? Women are raised in the same culture as men and soaking in the same patriarchy. Girls are still raised with the notion that “good girls don’t get raped” and “it’s up to you to protect your virtue” and “you don’t want a bad reputation!” and “he won’t buy the cow if he gets the milk for free!” and a host more of related bullshit.

    Boys are still raised to think and feel that they are entitled to whatever they want, that there are girls they can fuck, but those aren’t the ones you marry, that yeah, it’s really difficult for males to be faithful, so cheating is no big deal and so on. “Boys will be boys!”

    For a lot of women, it’s a defense mechanism to be a chill girl, to adopt the attitudes of the men they are around, because in our culture, being a man is prized and valuable, being a woman is not. Women still aren’t considered to be full human beings by large segments of society.

  314. 314
    ragarth

    @Gregory Greenwood #306

    Thank you for trying to explain the behavior of others, but I understood going into this that I’d catch a lot of flack, it is the internet after all. I had no delusions of making friends, debate of any form on the internet is unlikely to win friendships. What I did hope for, and what I did gain, was knowledge.

    Like I said before, I’m not worried about what others think of me, I just want to leave the world a better place than I found it, and the knowledge I’ve gained here will go towards my doing so. I’m a “hyperskeptic” that believes, so its possible that in my debates with other “hyperskeptics” I’ll have a better chance of winning them over than y’all have had. I know how they think, or something. :-)

    I knew from PZ Myer’s posts that a good deal of trolling takes place here, but I wasn’t very aware of the argumentation the trolls use and therefore wasn’t aware of how I should craft my argument not to look like them. I committed the sin of ignorance, but still managed to achieve my objective regardless of my mistake.

    There are two things about this that do make me sad, however: First that people think its actually fun to make fun of issues like this, and that “Just Asking Questions” is a trolling technique–asking questions of people in the know is a valuable means of achieving knowledge, and having that mechanism of learning abused by people until its effectiveness is reduced is irritating.

    So no, I’m not angry, unhappy, or in the least stressed by people’s reactions to me. I’m irritated with the people who have abused the mask of discourse and made the “JAQing” stereotype viable.

    As per the counter-argument of people making homophobia excuses and such, I’ve engaged in such debates with people and many of the arguments you give as examples they’ve used on me. I can’t claim a perfect track record, but I have caused the occasional shift in other people’s opinions. Note I said *shift,* 180′s are rare because after a bit you generally run into the brick wall of religion.

    Do note that my track record is likely due to the forums I argue in. Much of my argumentation takes place in the real world, private online discussions, etc. I gave up on public forum discussion quite a while ago; people’s egos tend to get in the way of the discourse in those. I have insufficient experience to assess whether the people who come here are like me and honestly seeking knowledge, or really are trolls.

    I’m curious about this hyperskeptic thing though. It’s not the first time I’ve been accused of it, I used to do religion debate on a forum and I got called that once or twice. I’m not really sure why its derogatory. The worst aspect of a hyperskeptic that I can think of, and that others might abhor, is the clinical division between logic and emotion that I engage when in a debate.

  315. 315
    ragarth

    @Nepenthe #308

    I used it as a convenient source for a definition in an argument. It wasn’t a substantive part of that post.

  316. 316
    Tethys

    The worst aspect of a hyperskeptic that I can think of, and that others might abhor, is the clinical division between logic and emotion that I engage when in a debate.

    Nah, the worst aspect is the condescending, patronizing attitude of people who think they are Spock.

  317. 317
    echidna

    Ragarth, your hyper-skepticism about rape culture caused pain to those who have been raped, and even those who are more informed than you. You demanded that others prove to you what you could have found out, or confirmed, for yourself.

    You placed your desire to learn above any other consideration. My guess is that you don’t see people on an Internet forum as real people. News flash: there are real people here, along with the occasional troll. If you aren’t behaving as if the people here are real, then you look like a troll.

  318. 318
    ragarth

    @Giliell, Approved Straight Chorus #298

    I apologize, I didn’t think we were still engaging in a debate. Just in case you didn’t catch it, my opinion’s been changed and I don’t really feel like putting on my devil’s advocate hat atm.

    I also surmised from your language that you weren’t making a serious argument, so I apologize for that errant assumption.

    “Who the fuck do you think college students are?
    Aliens that arrive from another planet for 4-6 years and then disappear again?”

    I think college students are young people generally between the ages of 18 and 25 who have had little real world experience due to going straight from their parents to the campus. This excludes people who go to community colleges.

    “What do you think where the rapists come from and where they learned those attitudes?”

    I don’t know. I’ll assume we’re still talking about college students, in which case there are two possible vectors for them being misogynist shits: First is that they learned their behavior from their families and the societies they grew up in, like you proposed. The second is that such behavior is the result of their real world inexperience and general immaturity. Young kids do stupid shit all the time, but this is in no way an excuse for their behavior.

    “Do you think that they will be any different towards a female employee and suddenly respect that the fact that she’s drunk doens’t mean you can fuck her?”

    No clue. If its socially ingrained behavior, then I doubt college life would have the effect of bringing them back to a proper social norm. If its just immaturity, then when (–if–) they grow up the behavior could dissipate like binge drinking and love of bell-bottom pants.

    “And who do you think raises the next generation of dudebros?”

    Their parents.

    “And who the fuck do you think the campus police officers are, the decans and counsellors and tutors who tell the female stundents that they have to take care not to get raped, who question them instead of the perp, who dismiss their complains, who turn a blind eye towards the frat parties and so on?”

    This has nothing to do with David Lisak’s research. His population sample was 2000 college students, not 2000 college staff members.

    Now, if you don’t mind, I have no vested interest in arguing a position I no longer hold and will therefore not do so again.

    I will say that if the royal family were really lizard people, that’d be pretty cool.

  319. 319
    ragarth

    @echidna #313

    I understand that my initial post was poorly worded; I didn’t convey my meaning in a way that reflected it. I have apologized multiple times for doing so, and assuming you haven’t seen a previous apology I’ve given, I apologize again.

    That said, I tried to avoid detailed description and be clinical in an attempt not to promote triggers. If the initiation of the conversation itself is a trigger, then that possibility fell outside my guess as to what would be kosher.

    I also didn’t demand people prove to me what I could have found out elsewhere. I had done research beforehand, and this was the next stage in my search for knowledge on the topic.

    I do see people on the internet as people. Note that I’m not making overly-broad assumptions about your motivations or intent, I’m trying the best I can to interpret other people’s messages to me in the best possible light, I’m taking measures to respect other people’s sensitivities as best I can, and I’m offering equal courtesy to the people on this forum as I would if I had met you all in real life.

  320. 320
    Weed(less) Monkey

    I’ll assume we’re still talking about college students, in which case there are two possible vectors for them being misogynist shits: First is that they learned their behavior from their families and the societies they grew up in, like you proposed. The second is that such behavior is the result of their real world inexperience and general immaturity. Young kids do stupid shit all the time, but this is in no way an excuse for their behavior.

    Oh bullshit. Where did those immature and inexperienced kids learn to be misogynistic shits in the first place? It doesn’t come from thin air or their mother’s milk.

  321. 321
    Valde

    #309 “Ya don’t say. Bobo, have you been reading or are you just digging for news articles and the like? Women are raised in the same culture as men and soaking in the same patriarchy. Girls are still raised with the notion that “good girls don’t get raped” and “it’s up to you to protect your virtue” and “you don’t want a bad reputation!” and “he won’t buy the cow if he gets the milk for free!” and a host more of related bullshit. ”

    Are you upset with me because I did not offer enough *new* information or something? Was I wrong to talk about something that happened, and how the victim was treated?

    I really don’t quite understand why I would be in trouble over this?

  322. 322
    echidna

    Ragarth,
    I’m a female engineer, and let me tell you that rape culture is entrenched in the adults. It shines out in my profession because men who are used to assessing how vulnerable women are in any given situation suddenly are working with a lone female as a colleague. It takes a while to sort the situation out. These are basically normal guys, but i could still see their initial confusion at a woman being unguarded enough to be alone with a group of men. More telling were the comments of strangers, who were relieved that I had a good reason for being the lone female in the group. Because otherwise, well they thought I was a pretty obvious slut.

  323. 323
    ragarth

    @echidna #318

    You’re preaching to the choir at this point. As I stated earlier, my opinion’s been changed.

  324. 324
    echidna

    Just saw your response to me. Yes, I did read all of your posts. You only used clinical language in certain contexts: words like “scaremongering” are not neutral. You’ve been a PITA, mainly because you have been largely ignoring Caine.

  325. 325
    echidna

    Frankly, i’m skeptical about that. In any case, Go back through Caine’s posts and read them with your newly-enlightened eyes.

  326. 326
    consciousness razor

    First that people think its actually fun to make fun of issues like this, and that “Just Asking Questions” is a trolling technique–asking questions of people in the know is a valuable means of achieving knowledge, and having that mechanism of learning abused by people until its effectiveness is reduced is irritating.

    It isn’t that you asked questions. It’s that you acted like a petulant shit while doing so, and that those questions were loaded with tons of bullshit fucking assumptions.

    You apparently still don’t know what is wrong with how you approached this subject. So I don’t consider this any kind of “victory.” You came in with lots of bullshit and will apparently leave with it, satisfied that you now know a few additional facts that’ll be clouded by your bullshit opinions. Congratulations.

    I understand that my initial post was poorly worded;

    That wasn’t the problem. It was poorly thought.

    I didn’t convey my meaning in a way that reflected it. I have apologized multiple times for doing so,

    No, you have not apologized. I told you that you haven’t and explained why, yet you did not respond to that, explaining that you understand what is wrong with it and how you have changed your position as a result. You have not said that the meaning you intended by your “poorly-chosen” words was wrong, no matter how it would’ve been worded.

    You’re just doubling down to pretend that you were “right” and in good shape, trying to be “objective” and “skeptical,” while not at all engaging in rape apologetics, from the start — heavens no, you couldn’t do that! But of course you could. That is what you were doing. If that has changed, then fucking admit it and say so. If it hasn’t changed, then fuck right off.

    and assuming you haven’t seen a previous apology I’ve given, I apologize again.

    I wish you fucking meant that.

  327. 327
    John Morales

    [meta]

    bobo, you’re not in trouble — it’s just that your comment made an uncontroversial 101-level point for which another example is hardly revelatory.

    Relax. :)

  328. 328
    Valde

    #323 John – I’ve been lurking for a while, but I am still relatively new to all of this.

    Should we only post if its relevatory?

    And I shared that story because at the time, I was absolutely stunned that young women would be rape apologists *to such an extreme*. I still am in fact. I mean, I know that society, as a whole, is infected with rape culture…but to just dismiss a rape with ‘thats so last year’, I mean, seriously, wtf?

  329. 329
    Inaji

    bobo, you’re not in trouble — it’s just that your comment made an uncontroversial 101-level point for which another example is hardly revelatory.

    Thank you for explaining, John. I’m up to my neck in busy right now and not quite in the mood to do 101 for the billionth time.

  330. 330
    Inaji

    Bobo:

    and I shared that story because at the time, I was absolutely stunned that young women would be rape apologists *to such an extreme*.

    Dude, I took the time to explain to you that such attitudes are in no way extreme, they are fucking de rigueur. Read, then think about what you just read. Hard.

  331. 331
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Gregory Greenwood @306:
    That was well stated and beautiful.
    Thank you.

  332. 332
    nimuae

    bobo:

    And I shared that story because at the time, I was absolutely stunned that young women would be rape apologists *to such an extreme*. I still am in fact. I mean, I know that society, as a whole, is infected with rape culture…but to just dismiss a rape with ‘thats so last year’, I mean, seriously, wtf?

    Women are also socially conscious. One reason women might be rape apologists is because 1.) she doesn’t want to identify with the ‘at risk’ group ie. she’s a Good Girl(tm) and, therefore won’t be violated. Or, 2.) She’s been violated but is so shamed by the idea that she has to reject the reality in other people just in order to keep her illusion that nothing really happened. Or, 3. They’re not very nice people or …..

    This is why it’s so important for people from both sides of the gender divide to come together against the culture.

  333. 333
    Valde

    I am not a dude. I am a woman, and I live in constant fear of being raped.

    I have read every single comment on this thread, and many others. But aren’t I allowed to still be stunned? And to talk about it? And if such attitudes are de rigeur, that’s even worse. See, I have not spent a lot of time talking about rape, or even reading about it over the years. When I first saw the show on CNN about this young womans experience I was horrified that such attitudes even existed. And to me, it sounded VERY extreme, because I literally had no idea.

    Please don’t be mad at me because I am simply naive and socially isolated. I am on your side ffs and I believe every.single.thing you guys say here. If I say something that is 101 please don’t hold it against me!

  334. 334
    Valde

    Actually, I didn’t even know that rape culture existed until I read Jessica Valenti’s book ‘The Purity Myth’

    I felt sick to my stomach for days afterward.

  335. 335
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    Weed MOnkey

    Oh bullshit. Where did those immature and inexperienced kids learn to be misogynistic shits in the first place? It doesn’t come from thin air or their mother’s milk.

    I call it the “kids learn bad words at kindergarten” phenomenon.
    Parents who care often notice that their offspring comes home one day sprouting a whole register of fuck that is never used at home.
    The explenation they’re given by others is “they learn it in kindergarten”. It is as if that was some kind of contagious disease whose germs cannot be scrubbed off the tiny toilets and Lego blocks.
    No, fuck, the teachers don’t do “slurs and name-calling” sessions with them either. They learn that stuff from other kids who, in term learn it from the adults in their lives.
    Not so long ago an acquaintance told me how she’d been watching a soap with her 8yo son. And he called the bad woman on the screen a bitch. And she said “do you know what that means?” And he said “slut”. They went through the whole merry collection of slurs the German language has for women who have sex until he finally said “it means she’s an asshole!”
    So, in short, the boy has no actual knowledge about the concept of prostitution or casual sex whatsoever, but he has already learned a full arsenal of misogynist term for women. And he learned them from other kids who, in term totally didn’t invent them.

  336. 336
    Inaji

    Bobo:

    Please don’t be mad at me because I am simply naive and socially isolated.

    I am not mad at you, Bobo. Also, ‘dude’ is used for both sexes these days. Those crazy kids, eh? ;D

    There’s a whole lot of good information at the Pharyngula wiki. It’s a lot of reading, but it can help bring you up to speed if you’re willing to spend some time reading:

    Social Justice and economics and Feminist Link Roundup.

  337. 337
    ragarth

    @echidna 320, 321

    The ‘scaremongering’ statement is included in my apology. It falls under bad word-choice on my part. I’d edit the post if I could, but I don’t have that ability.

    I responded to Caine’s initial posts, the ones that put forth arguments. Part of her data is what convinced me.

    As per why I chose not to respond to her posts, it’d be inappropriate of me to give them as if she weren’t here in this forum. But, to give you due credence, echidna, I’ll address her directly.

    Caine,

    Don’t take my not responding to you as an insult. I responded to those aspects of your posts that I felt comfortable doing so, and didn’t respond to the others because I felt tensions were rising, and that any response I might give would just lead to worse feelings. Given that, I decided the safest response would be no response so we could disengage conversation in the best possible state.

  338. 338
    Valde

    #332 Caine, I have also spent some time reading many of the radfem blogs. Believe me, I am trying my best. I can only take it all in short, small doses because its all so goddamn DEPRESSING.

    For the record, I read everything you guys say, and take it all in WITHOUT QUESTION. But not everything everyone says is necessarily always going to be revelatory, is it? I mean, most of this thread has just been rehashing basic points over and over to get it through ragarth’s possible-mra skull…

    And I should amend my earlier comment. I was initially stunned and shocked at how other women could dimiss rape so casually (I have always been aware of slut-shaming, but was unaware that people could treat rape so casually) but now I am just simply OFFENDED.

    As a more personal example of how normalised rape culture is I remember hearing about rape in the news or something, when I was a child. And I remember, as that child, AGREEING that ‘rape only happens if the chick asks for it, short skirt and all’. I had picked up those attitudes about rape, from adults, WITHOUT THINKING. I just blindly accepted that ‘only sluts get raped’. And this, as we know, is all too pervasive, even today. This is part of what makes rape culture so fucking terrifying.

  339. 339
    Inaji

    Bobo:

    And I remember, as that child, AGREEING that ‘rape only happens if the chick asks for it, short skirt and all’. I had picked up those attitudes about rape, from adults, WITHOUT THINKING. I just blindly accepted that ‘only sluts get raped’. And this, as we know, is all too pervasive, even today. This is part of what makes rape culture so fucking terrifying.

    Exactly. And each individual has to reach a point of ‘waking up’ (taking the red pill, a la the Matrix) before they realize that they are taking rape culture as the norm.

  340. 340
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    bobo:
    I’ve seen you post elsewhere and I am happy to see you here. Every voice that speaks up against rape culture is an important voice.

    ****
    arrenfrank @278:

    I may well emerge from the murk; time will tell. (It’d probably do me good, as I’m pretty much socially isolated in meatspace.)

    If you desire a relaxed environment to engage with like minded individuals on a social level, I think you’ll find The Lounge a great hangout. It’s a social atmosphere without any specific topic where we all hang out and talk about whatever the heck we want to (all PZ asks is that we are kind to one another). You’ll find many of the Pharyngula regulars there at virtually any time of day.

    ****
    Louis @294:

    Well, I think you’re right here. I asked for a link to the much vaunted debunking of Schrodinger’s Rapist and I have yet to get one.

    If you ever get the link, please pass it along. I’d be curious to see this “debunking”.

    ****
    charleypie @301:

    I’m a survivor of sexual abuse which a few of my closest friends do know, and yet they see nothing wrong with using rape a source of humour. *This* is rape culture and this is what needs to be tackled.

    That’s fucked up. Rape is not a source of humor. Ever. That’s incredibly insensitive of your friends that they would make fun of sexual abuse around you. They really need to think before they talk.

    ****

    ragarth @310:

    I’m a “hyperskeptic” that believes, so its possible that in my debates with other “hyperskeptics” I’ll have a better chance of winning them over than y’all have had.

    That’s not a banner I’d want to wave around here. From what I’ve seen of hyperskeptics, they usually apply their skepticism towards anecdotal stories (cf. “guys don’t do that”, “women are having issues with sexual harassment at conventions”, “rape culture is prevalent in American society”)

    I committed the sin of ignorance, but still managed to achieve my objective regardless of my mistake.

    What was this goal, and why do you think you achieved it?

    I’m curious about this hyperskeptic thing though. It’s not the first time I’ve been accused of it, I used to do religion debate on a forum and I got called that once or twice. I’m not really sure why its derogatory.

    As I said above, there are often specific cases where hyperskepticism is involved. I didn’t follow FtB as much when ElevatorGate occured, but I’ve heard of it. I’ve also read more than enough comments at this point to see that people are doubting every aspect of Rebecca’s story. They don’t even believe her. They doubt that the story happened the way she relayed it. How is she supposed to prove her story? It, like many anecdotes, wasn’t recorded. Neither she nor EG took notes. All that we have to go is what she’s telling us.
    On what basis do we doubt her?
    If we doubt her story now, do we doubt *everything* she tells us?
    Was the situation on the elevator so outrageous–given what we know of sexism–that she would have made it up?
    Are any personal anecdotes now suspect? If someone says they’ve just eaten dinner, or saw a movie, do we doubt that too? If we don’t doubt those anecdotes, why do we doubt others? *Extreme* anecdotes–I was psychically connected to my dog for five days–should obviously be criticized and skepticism applied. Why? That’s an extraordinary event that has not happened. It’s something so far removed from ordinary, everyday situations, that they require more skepticism than mundane occurrences. Rape culture, sexism, misogyny, the patriarchy…this crap is ubiquitous. No, not everyone recognizes this. Many people vehemently deny these concepts. But they are very real. If one recognizes that sexist attitudes towards women are ingrained in our society…if one recognizes that women are treated as sexual objects first and people second(?) third(?) fourth(?) ever(?), one will not be surprised to hear Rebecca’s story. I know I wasn’t. My time at FreeThoughtBlogs has opened my eyes to the rampant sexism and misogyny in American society (I assume this is the case around the world as well, but my experiences are only in the US).
    So when I hear a woman say that she was sexually harassed at an atheist convention, or that a woman was made to feel uncomfortable in an elevator when a guy hits on her–
    I BELIEVE THEM BECAUSE THIS IS NOT AN OUTRAGEOUS CLAIM.

  341. 341
    Gregory Greenwood

    ragarth @ 310;

    There are two things about this that do make me sad, however: First that people think its actually fun to make fun of issues like this, and that “Just Asking Questions” is a trolling technique–asking questions of people in the know is a valuable means of achieving knowledge, and having that mechanism of learning abused by people until its effectiveness is reduced is irritating.

    It is a form of poisoning the well – it is no coincidence that this particular type of troll likes to hide behind the mask of someone who is new to liberal, feminist thought and is trying to find their feet. Not only do they think that it will allow them to slip their bigoted presuppositions into the conversation with less resistance, but they also hope that it will create a hostile environment toward those who genuinely are new to these issues and have only recently become aware of such things as rape culture and the kyriarchy in the hope that such people will be turned away from feminism and so will become easy pickings for the MRAs.

    I’m curious about this hyperskeptic thing though. It’s not the first time I’ve been accused of it, I used to do religion debate on a forum and I got called that once or twice. I’m not really sure why its derogatory. The worst aspect of a hyperskeptic that I can think of, and that others might abhor, is the clinical division between logic and emotion that I engage when in a debate.

    The trouble with hyperskepticism is that it can make a virtue out of doubting everything, including well established concepts within such fields as feminist thought and areas of well documented research. Demanding citations for every point raised in discussion (no matter how well recognised by people who are familiar with the issues) can easily severely disrupt a conversation and greatly annoy the other participants (especially when the requested references have already been provided earlier in the thread and the person asking for them clearly has not bothered to read through the discussion up to date before demanding citation, often as a crude attempt at a ‘gotcha’ argument).

    The situation becomes far worse when it is not abstract concepts that are the constant target of scepticism, but the actual experiences of people who have gone through traumatic experiences such as rape. You get a type of hypersceptic whose base position is always to assume that any woman who comes out as a rape surviver is unreliable, and that her description of her experience is at best flawed and at worst downright dishonest.

    A similar situation arises when a male hypersceptic is discussing an issue that disproprtionately effects women – such as rape culture or abortion rights – but refuses to listen to the pespectives of women with regard to these issues, actig as if his perspective is clearly superior even though (or sometimes because) he is unlikley to ever be in such a position himself. A particularly common formulation of this attitude is the attempt to dismiss women as overly ‘emotional’ with regards to issues such as rape, while the hypersceptic sets himself up as a paragon of dispassionate, Spock-esque objectivity that he then tries to claim as a source of greater authority in the discussion.

    Needless to say, the hyperskeptic never stops to consider that he can only afford to be so dispassionate because society provides him with such a high level of socio-cultural privilege that he is sufficiently far removed from the sharp end of actually experiencing such things as rape that he can maintain his cool, faux-academic distance from the issues under discussion. Such people tend to be so lacking in empathy that they treat the discussion like a contextless academic point-scoring exercise rather than the reality of the lives of billions of women worldwide.

    This is why hyperskepticism is seen as so problematic, especially with regard to rape apologia, but also more generally in the context of any of the types of discussions about the rights, interests and issues of less privileged groups in society that are subject to the interference of members of more privileged groups who automatically think they know better.

  342. 342
    Gregory Greenwood

    Tony ∞2012 recipient of the coronal mass erection∞ @ 327;

    That was well stated and beautiful.
    Thank you.

    *Blushes* Why, you are too kind good sir…

  343. 343
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ragarth:
    I also haven’t seen an apology from you WRT to “most gay men in bars are slimy”.

    Like I said, as a gay man I find that offensive.

    *Maybe* in your limited experiences, that is true. But you cannot apply those experiences to gay men as a whole. Moreover, given your initial skepticism with regard to claims of rape culture, shouldn’t I also be skeptical of your claim?

  344. 344
    Inaji

    A good example of the idiocy which is hyperskepticism: Russell Blackford saying “how do we know there was an elevator?”

  345. 345
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Like I said, as a gay man I find that offensive.

    You don’t need to be a gay man to find that offensive. So do I. Back in the day (’80s), I spent a whole lot of time in gay bars. Most of my friends were gay. I seriously take issue with the whole “eeuuw, gay guys in bars are icky!” crap.

  346. 346
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine:

    Most of my friends were gay. I seriously take issue with the whole “eeuuw, gay guys in bars are icky!” crap.

    Perhaps someone who takes issue with the behavior of some individuals should say “Gay guys being creepy, don’t do that”?
    .
    .
    .
    Nah.
    Just imagine the controversy *that* would create!

  347. 347
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine @340:
    Hell, was there even a *hotel*?

  348. 348
    Valde

    #337 Gregory Greenwood said: “A similar situation arises when a male hypersceptic is discussing an issue that disproprtionately effects women – such as rape culture or abortion rights – but refuses to listen to the pespectives of women with regard to these issues, actig as if his perspective is clearly superior even though (or sometimes because) he is unlikley to ever be in such a position himself. A particularly common formulation of this attitude is the attempt to dismiss women as overly ‘emotional’ with regards to issues such as rape, while the hypersceptic sets himself up as a paragon of dispassionate, Spock-esque objectivity that he then tries to claim as a source of greater authority in the discussion. ”

    I especially hate when such privileged people lecture women on *how* they should treat anti-choicers, and MRA’s. “Be nice to the MRA/anti-choicer, you won’t change their minds if you’re all emotional”

  349. 349
    Inaji

    Tony:

    Hell, was there even a *hotel*?

    :puts on hyperskeptical douchehat: Well, I don’t think the possibility, nay, probability of a mass delusion should be ruled out. After all, where’s the evidence that there was a conference at all, let alone a gathering at a pub?” :tosses hyperskeptical douchehat off a bridge:

  350. 350
    Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Nerd of Redhead:

    Please tell me this-

    Last night justin(e)

    Is not what it appears to be?

  351. 351
    Inaji

    Bobo:

    I especially hate when such privileged people lecture women on *how* they should treat anti-choicers, and MRA’s. “Be nice to the MRA/anti-choicer, you won’t change their minds if you’re all emotional”

    Word. That’s just more of the patriarchal brainwashing and every day sexism rearing it’s ugly head. “Women, be nice!” Feh.

  352. 352
    ragarth

    @Tony ∞2012 recipient of the coronal mass erection∞ 336, 339

    “What was this goal, and why do you think you achieved it?”

    I was looking for evidence. I got it. I consider having my opinion on a topic changed to be a success for me. It means my world view is a little more accurate.

    As per the anecdotal evidence issue, the issue isn’t whether the anecdote is true or false, I personally assume any anecdotal evidence not beyond reasonable probability to be true, but rather the issue is its place in a larger statistical construct.

    Back to miracles: I once heard a bit of anecdotal evidence from someone claiming that Allah commanded him to buy some milk, drive down a specific road, and deliver it to the doorstep of a poor family who had a hungry child. This claim is extraordinary, but aside from the actual ‘Allah told me’ part, it *could* happen. Given that it could happen, I have no actual recourse to say it didn’t happen and so I default to an assumption of trust, but even if it were taken as truth it doesn’t prove miracles because is doesn’t show a general trend.

    This isn’t to degrade the personal accounts of people, the deed of the miracle worker above is no less good whether he’s the only person on the planet to give milk to a starving child or one amongst many, but anecdotal evidence can only prove that something is possible, not that something is common. Unless the population size is sufficiently small for the volume of anecdotes to equate to a significant portion of it, anecdotal evidence can’t predict larger population trends. Once the population reaches a certain size, the number of anecdotes needed to be more than a slim fraction would be impossible for one person to go through and so statistics becomes a better means of looking at the data. The US has several hundred million people in it, I’d probably spend my whole life reading anecdotes before a sufficient number are reached to show correlation between giving milk to babies and Allah’s psychic message.

    Instead, questionnaires are like anecdotal short hand, it speeds up the process of collating a large number of responses and provides abstracted data that can be absorbed much quicker than individual anecdotes. They’re less personal, but more effective at showing trends amongst a large population. If I had a study showing that 32% of people giving milk to babies did so because Allah compelled them, then that shows a definite correlation. I could then look at a random sample of anecdotes from these people to assess for underlying reasons and form a new survey to test the new hypothesis.

    Now, try to look at things from my point of view. I’m going to, once again, use a different example than rape culture to avoid hitting any triggers. Instead let’s say that there’s this population of people out there with swimming pools. I myself have never swam, have only heard the occasional story of people in pools, and my social group has me insulated from pool owners. From my experience, I have established a world-view where pool ownership is this rare thing that only exists far away from me. Both my neighbors might have pools but I wouldn’t be aware of it because they’ve got fences, the news doesn’t report on pool ownership, etc. My existing body of evidence points to pool ownership being rare, and new evidence must contend with this. I am a victim of my culture shrouding the universe of pool-ownership from me, and the artificial world-view I live in is my prison.

    I personally seek to break out of the prison of my false worldview, but most people I have experience with have stockholm syndrome against unsavory realities and cling to their mental prisons. Religion is one form of mental stockholm, I would suspect rape culture is another, and hence the uphill battle that’s faced bringing it to public attention.

    I might seem ‘thickskulled’ to you, but that’s because I’ve created a false worldview that needs to be broken.

    As per the ‘slimy men in gay bars,’ I think my response to your last post on the topic got eaten in the server oddities last night. I agree with you that I should have used the words ‘In my experience’ that would have been more accurate. I do apologize for the insult.

  353. 353
    Valde

    #347 Caine, that very attitude was expressed by an FTB writer a few weeks ago. Incredibly annoying. He only changed his tune when told that it was wrong to let “anti-choicers control the tone of the debate” but he never changed his tune regarding that its not his fucking place to tell women how nice or not nice they should be to anti-choicers.

  354. 354
    consciousness razor

    As per

    Incorrect English. If you use that construction, it’s just “as for.”

    Back to miracles: I once heard a bit of anecdotal evidence from someone claiming that Allah commanded him to buy some milk, drive down a specific road, and deliver it to the doorstep of a poor family who had a hungry child. This claim is extraordinary, but aside from the actual ‘Allah told me’ part, it *could* happen. Given that it could happen, I have no actual recourse to say it didn’t happen and so I default to an assumption of trust,

    Fucking ridiculous. You shouldn’t “trust” that Allah commanded a person to do things, just because the commands weren’t extraordinary. The existence of Allah is the extraordinary part you should be skeptical about.

    but even if it were taken as truth it doesn’t prove miracles because is doesn’t show a general trend.

    Total crap. If there is one miracle, then there is a fucking miracle. There doesn’t need to be “a general trend.” This is how denialists operate, not skeptics, to find some way to find some way to avoid believing in an actual phenomenon. You represent actual skeptics very poorly, if you tell people that kind of dishonest assholery is “skepticism.”

    This isn’t to degrade the personal accounts of people, the deed of the miracle worker above is no less good whether he’s the only person on the planet to give milk to a starving child or one amongst many,

    Of course it fucking isn’t. Why the fuck would you bring that up? Whether it’s good (or more or less good) is not relevant to whether it happened or is possible or is common.

    but anecdotal evidence can only prove that something is possible, not that something is common.

    Whether it’s “possible” does not imply that it happened once (which you believe happened, if you believe an anecdote). You’re confusing things, when you say anecdotal evidence “proves” a possibility. Possibilities are things which are not logically or physically impossible; so consistency and physical laws, respectively, tell us what’s possible. Anecdotes don’t have a fucking thing to do with that.

    Stop trying to explain this shit to us, if you’re going to get it so much of it so fucking wrong.

    Dunning-Kruger

  355. 355
    Anthony K

    Please tell me this-

    Last night justin(e)

    Is not what it appears to be?

    I did not even see that. Fuck I hope not, but I don’t see how it can’t.

  356. 356
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    :: looks around trying to figure out what Brownian and Josh are talking about. Doesn’t see the comment, but has suspicions…::

  357. 357
    Inaji

    Tony, it’s comment #97.

  358. 358
    John Morales

    [meta]

    We’ll wait on Nerd, but based on history I suspect it was an attempt at gender neutrality and slackness in not checking the actual name before commenting.

  359. 359
    Inaji

    John:

    I suspect it was an attempt at gender neutrality

    That was my assumption also.

  360. 360
    ragarth

    See, now I’m curious. Got some links to the posts of this person y’all are trying to insult me with?

    I’d love to laugh at the ridiculousness of the insinuation.

  361. 361
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    John, Caine:
    But isn’t it public knowledge? Why gender neutrality?

  362. 362
    John Morales

    [OT]

    Tony, we’ll have to wait on Nerd, but in his many years of commenting here I’ve not seen him ever deliberately bash gays.

    ragarth, to what insult(s) via a third party do you refer?

  363. 363
    Inaji

    Tony:

    But isn’t it public knowledge?

    Vacula is public knowledge? I’m sure plenty of people don’t have a clue as to who he is and Nerd tends to focus more on someone being a ‘pitter than their gender.

    Ragarth:

    Got some links

    Do your own searches, douchecake.

  364. 364
    Inaji

    John:

    ragarth, to what insult(s) via a third party do you refer?

    Who knows? It’s rather interesting that Ragarth seems to think every conversation revolves around his empty head.

  365. 365
    ragarth

    @John Morales

    I looked back at post #97, its one of the several initially claiming that I was a sock puppet, a slymepitter, or MRA.

    I didn’t get the connection of that side conversation to me until I looked back at the post referred to.

    Frankly, I was under the impression that I had evolved from sockpocket to douchewiz. If given the two choices, I’d rather be a douchewiz than a sockpuppet. :-)

    I can still get amusement out of comparing myself to this justin(e) character even if I’ve apparently devolved once again.

  366. 366
    Argle Bargle

    It’s rather interesting that Ragarth seems to think every conversation revolves around his empty head.

    He is rather arrogant. He thinks everyone else’s function is to do basic research that he’s too important or too lazy to do himself. The hyperskepticism doesn’t help him either, especially when he expects us to believe every little detail he drops about himself but finds it difficult to reciprocate.

    I doubt he’s a slymepitter. I also doubt he’s anywhere near as intelligent as he thinks he is.

  367. 367
    John Morales

    [OT + meta]

    ragarth, for someone who has claimed “I’m not worried about what others think of me”, you sure are interested in what people think of you. :)

    Well, then: the referent is ‘Justin Vacula’ and you give a somewhat similar vibe, though to be charitable (and without checking) I think that associating you with the slimepit probably a false positive.

    (BTW, you clearly have yet to look up the meaning of ‘per’ — and until you do, you will keep on misusing it)

  368. 368
    nimuae

    ragarth

    I wasn’t going to reply to any of your posts but, you’re still around, so let me just chime in.

    Rape isn’t about sex. Studies after studies have shown that (feel free to google that.) Even the college drunk sorority variety isn’t about the guy being so sex crazed that if he doesn’t have an orgasm Right Now he’s going to explode.

    Rape is about control; it’s about dominance. My ex-boyfriend didn’t rape me because he wanted sex. He didn’t drag me out of town, into the middle of nowhere, and pull out a knife because he was dying for an orgasm. He didn’t show up again, and again, and again, after my classes were over because he thought I’d put out.

    The rape culture isn’t because people (of either gender) don’t have access to enough sex. The rape culture exists because one part of society doesn’t want to give up the privilege of asserting absolute control/dominance over another group.

  369. 369
    Inaji

    Rodney:

    I also doubt he’s anywhere near as intelligent as he thinks he is.

    That’s a given. He keeps littering evidence of his lack all over this thread.

  370. 370
    nimuae

    ragarth

    I wasn’t going to reply to any of your posts but, you’re still around, so let me just chime in.

    Rape isn’t about sex. Studies after studies have shown that (feel free to google that.) Even the college drunk sorority girl/boy variety isn’t about the guy being so sex crazed that if he doesn’t have an orgasm Right Now he’s going to explode.

    Rape is about control; it’s about dominance. My ex-boyfriend didn’t rape me because he wanted sex. He didn’t drag me out of town, into the middle of nowhere, and pull out a knife because he was dying for an orgasm. He didn’t show up again, and again, and again, after my classes were over because he thought I’d put out.

    The rape culture isn’t because people (of either gender) don’t have access to enough sex. The rape culture exists because one part of society doesn’t want to give up the privilege of asserting absolute control/dominance over another group.

  371. 371
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ragarth:
    [OT]
    If you indeed do not care what people say about you, good. Depending on the individual, frustration with you may linger for a time.
    There have been regulars who pissed people off when they first started commenting. They changed their ways, and have gone on to become regulars in good standing. It’s possible-if you so desire-for you to be one of those, but it won’t happen overnight. I recommend lurking, reading, and learning for a time. When you do post, take the time to bring yourself up to speed on a given subject. You may still be wrong, but due diligence and humility can alleviate that in the eyes of some.

  372. 372
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Accidental double post it may be, but something like rape culture DOES bear repeating.

  373. 373
    nimuae

    Bah. Sorry for the double post. I’m just getting the hang of this.

  374. 374
    ragarth

    @nimuae

    I understand that rape is about dominance, not sex. This has been shown true of a very large number of sex crimes. I’ve avoided discussing motivations for the same reason that I’ve tried to keep descriptions clinical.

    I never made any claim that rape culture is about sex. Rather, my understanding of it is that its a product of the dehumanization of women in society.

  375. 375
    ragarth

    @Tony ∞2012 recipient of the coronal mass erection∞

    Thank you for the assurances, but I don’t plan on being a regular for logistical reasons–Too many posts in a day for me to keep track of. This thread has been a pleasure, and I’ve learned a great deal, but the resources it requires for me to be a part of this community are too great for regular expenditure.

    Tonight or tomorrow will be the end of my posting in this thread, RL obligations will soon make being here impossible, and I don’t expect I’ll have a reason to make a presence in another thread for a very long time.

    I agree with pharyngula on a wide range of issues, and on this one issue where I wasn’t sure, I spent months beforehand considering the issue and doing my own research before deciding to post. The chances of another topic where I disagree with PZ Myers (and presumably y’all) coming up within 6 months to a year is extremely small.

  376. 376
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Here’s my complete name for #97

    Last night justin(e) vacuous

    I was just trying to be amusing with the name of a banhammered MRA troll. I forget he was gay. If I had remembered, no trailing e. Mea culpa.

  377. 377
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    I never made any claim that rape culture is about sex. Rather, my understanding of it is that its a product of the dehumanization of women in society.

    Even though you started out on this thread dehumanizing women and doubting that there was any such thing as rape culture?

    (“Paranoid” you called us.)

  378. 378
    Inaji

    Tigger:

    (“Paranoid” you called us.)

    Don’t forget “emotional”, which in Ragarth’s world is code speak for “hysterical”.

  379. 379
    ragarth

    @John Morales

    Hah. :-) Let me qualify then. The things people have said to and about me thus far on this thread have not hurt me. Instead, in some cases, I’ve found the wit of people’s jabs at me to be creative.

    I can appreciate the work a good insult takes to craft even if its tossed my way. Curiosity is also a weakness of mine, so things that have a history behind them, such as being compared to someone, play to that weakness.

    I haven’t actively tried to encourage insults, I’ve tried to discourage them somewhat while still being true to my beliefs, but this is the internet. One can’t reference kittens without getting flamed somewhere on the intertubes.

  380. 380
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Yes, Caine. I’ve been around far too many teens for far too long to accept a sudden 180º on face value.

  381. 381
    Inaji

    Tigger:

    I’ve been around far too many teens for far too long to accept a sudden 180º on face value.

    I avoid teens, but have also been around far too long to accept a sudden shift. In Ragarth’s case, I might be more willing to buy it if he shut the fuck up, rather than continuing to prove he’s a none too intelligent douchecake.

  382. 382
    Valde

    His arrogance hurts my brain:(

  383. 383
    Inaji

    Bobo:

    His arrogance hurts my brain:(

    Long term exposure to privileged idiots will do that to a person.

  384. 384
    nimuae

    Ragarth,

    Clinical.

    If I can offer you any advice it would be to not delude yourself that clinical is how to come across if you’re truly trying to gather information about a subject you’re not familiar with.

    Next time, try compassion. Try being vulnerable instead of standing back around the edges as a disassociated observer.

    Good luck to you.

  385. 385
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ragarth@371:
    Dude, we have doctors, lawyers, biologists…people from all walks of life, across the planet, who are busy too. Yet they post here as they see fit. There’s an implication to your comment that doesn’t sit well with me.

  386. 386
    Inaji

    Tony, didn’t anyone tell you that we’re all fat, lazy, acne-riddled teenage boys living in mommy’s basement?

  387. 387
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Caine:
    If thats case for hamging around threads with privileged idiots, what happens when you hang around threads with slymepitters?

  388. 388
    Valde

    Seriously though, most of these trolls sound and act the same. Over at Dispatches there is a climate change denier, and he has that same smarmy arrogant attitude! They lie, they obfuscate, they deflect, they reluctantly ‘lower themselves to deal with the peons of FTB’ and so on.

    The regular posters can be a bit intimidating, but none of you are ARROGANT. I have been lurking on and off for about 6 months, and found you guys to be really scary at first :P But not one of you has that smarmy, entitled, arrogant, ignorant, entitled attitude of the trolls!

    p.s. climate change denier is resorting to picking on grammar in order to prove his superiority :P

  389. 389
    Inaji

    Tony:

    what happens when you hang around threads with slymepitters?

    Much anger and much drinking.

  390. 390
    ragarth

    @Tony ∞2012 recipient of the coronal mass erection∞

    I meant no such implication.

    I understand the the posters on pharyngula represent a wide range of people.

    To be honest though, if:

    “Too many posts in a day for me to keep track of. This thread has been a pleasure, and I’ve learned a great deal, but the resources it requires for me to be a part of this community are too great for regular expenditure.”

    translates to you as:

    “You people aren’t professionals and spend too much time posting.”

    Then I feel anything I state will be taken far out of context. I’ve tried to give people the benefit of the doubt with taking what I say out of context, but this particular instance of it makes me wonder if people on here aren’t doing so on purpose. I don’t see how the implication of what you’re saying at all translates from what I posted without assuming the worst of me.

    So let us use this as an example, what makes you think that my statement of my personal inability to keep up with posts here in the long term is an insult to the posters on this blog?

  391. 391
    Inaji

    Tony:

    what happens when you hang around threads with slymepitters?

    Also, body bits can break. 5K3D broke my pancreas and landed me in the hospital.
     
    Okay, that wasn’t the actual cause, but it didn’t help. ;)

  392. 392
    Koshka

    “Too many posts in a day for me to keep track of. This thread has been a pleasure, and I’ve learned a great deal, but the resources it requires for me to be a part of this community are too great for regular expenditure.”

    If your resources are so limited you should not waste them on such waffle.

  393. 393
    ragarth

    @Koshka

    Well, for the bulk of it I had a purpose that was quite important to me. That purpose was fulfilled and I stuck around for any extra info that might come and to answer other people’s questions to me since I already had a commitment here, and just disappearing seemed rude to me. Its looking like those people who were helpful to me or had questions for me have moved on however, so the only value left to me is Tony’s response–what he has to say might go to helping me improve myself. We are all most blind when assessing ourselves.

    After that’s done with I’ll likely be gone, no counter arguments to my post #348 appear to be coming and aside from #386, no other conversations I’ve had have been more than feeding my curiosity.

  394. 394
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=
    “Too many posts in a day for me to keep track of. This thread has been a pleasure, and I’ve learned a great deal, but the resources it requires for me to be a part of this community are too great for regular expenditure.”

    If your resources are so limited you should not waste them on such waffle.

    +1 =^_^=

  395. 395
    Inaji

    Too many posts in a day for me to keep track of. This thread has been a pleasure, and I’ve learned a great deal, but the resources it requires for me to be a part of this community are too great for regular expenditure.

    Translation: Bitchez be crazy, man. All hysterical and shit.

  396. 396
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    ragarth:
    You come across incredibly self absorbed. Which is exactly how you’ve come across this entire thread.
    ::holds the door open, waves bye bye::

  397. 397
    consciousness razor

    I agree with pharyngula on a wide range of issues, and on this one issue where I wasn’t sure, I spent months beforehand considering the issue and doing my own research before deciding to post.

    You’re saying that shit was the result of months of fucking work? Wow.

    The chances of another topic where I disagree with PZ Myers (and presumably y’all) coming up within 6 months to a year is extremely small.

    Why assume you’d only bother to comment when you disagree? And why assume that when you do comment in some thread, it would need to be lots of comments and lots of time?

    And fuck, I disagree with shit PZ says all the time (not to mention others). It’s not that hard to do. And you don’t really need to go from delusional rape-apologizing clown straight to a proud bootlicker. It’s not convincing.

  398. 398
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Ragarth, the thing to do is to type out your comment, click ‘preview’, and then read the preview as if it had been a comment written by someone else.

    Then decide whether you really should press ‘submit comment’ or do a re-write to convey what you actually want to convey.

    Your sentences are so turgid they come across as self-important and condescending. So, with nothing else to go on but the comments you submit, people will think you are self-important and condescending.

    If you wish to make a better impression on people that cannot see or hear you, you really need to put more thought into sentence construction.

    Think about how YOU would receive some of the comments you have made were someone to direct them at you.

    Have some empathy when discussing real-life issues that hurt real people.

    When you make a mistake (we all do) make a clear and unambiguous apology (e.g. “I’m really sorry I hurt you. I didn’t think it through. I’ll try to do better” NOT “I’m sorry if you felt hurt by what you thought I wrote”)

  399. 399
    ragarth

    @Tony ∞2012 recipient of the coronal mass erection∞

    Be well Tony, I wish you well.

    To everyone else, take care, and thank you to those who took the time to help me. I also wish you all well.

  400. 400
    ragarth

    @Tigger_the_Wing

    Ah, sorry. I didn’t see your post before I posted my farewell.

    I just wanted to pop in once more and thank you for the criticism in that response.

  401. 401
    Inaji

    CR:

    You’re saying that shit was the result of months of fucking work? Wow.

    I’ll second that wow and I’ll add that I don’t believe one word of it. This, from someone who couldn’t manage to read research posted in this thread and someone who somehow can’t manage the simplest of searches. Uh huh.

  402. 402
    Inaji

    Also, how does months of work go with with a subject I don’t know much about?

    Liar, liar…

  403. 403
    SallyStrange

    Yeah, Caine, that’s exactly what I thought when I read this:

    I spent months beforehand considering the issue and doing my own research before deciding to post.

    Clumsy lies, at that. Not even difficult to detect. He started off proclaiming his ignorance. Now he claims he did research for months? Either one is true or the other. Not both. Which is it? And why should we take anything ragarth says at face value?

  404. 404
    Inaji

    Sally:

    And why should we take anything ragarth says at face value?

    There isn’t a reason to do so. The lies are blatant, as you note. I’m not sure of just what Ragarth was after, however, after that last little display, I don’t care.

  405. 405
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Nerd,

    I was just trying to be amusing with the name of a banhammered MRA troll. I forget he was gay. If I had remembered, no trailing e. Mea culpa.

    He is not gay. He is straight.

    Regardless, don’t make fun of any man by comparing him to a woman.

  406. 406
    Tigger_the_Wing, Back home =^_^=

    Thank you, SGBM. =^_^=

  407. 407
    chigau (違う)

    ragarth
    Should you return:
    If you type
    <blockquote>paste quoted text here. paste it all here. the magic computer fairies offset the words.</blockquote>
    this will result.

    paste quoted text here. paste it all here. the magic computer fairies offset the words.

    It will make your comments easier to read.
    It will not help you be less of a total fuckwad.

  408. 408
    John Morales

    [meta + OT]

    Yes, thanks, ॐ. I add that Nerd’s confusion may be my fault, since I’m the one that made the linkage, and I too can’t keep the MRAs straight*, mainly because I don’t bother.

    * I mean who’s who, obviously.

  409. 409
    jefrir

    @ Caine

    Also, how does months of work go with with a subject I don’t know much about?

    Liar, liar…

    Maybe it was months of really, really incompetent work? Like, he spent the last few months staring at a computer screen thinking “I wish someone would link me to some rape stats”, and he’s only just realised that typing things in might be more effective.

  410. 410
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    what happens when you hang around threads with slymepitters?

    More triggers than a gun cabinet.

  411. 411
    daniellavine

    @bobo:

    #332 Caine, I have also spent some time reading many of the radfem blogs. Believe me, I am trying my best. I can only take it all in short, small doses because its all so goddamn DEPRESSING.

    Those blogs are probably not accurately described as “radfem”. The term “radical” is usually reserved for movements or opinions that are, in fact, radical. The idea that women should be treated as people is not in the least “radical”.

  412. 412
    Inaji

    daniellevine:

    Those blogs are probably not accurately described as “radfem”.

    Radical Feminism is a subset of feminism. Perhaps you should do a bit of reading up on the subject, eh?

  413. 413
    Valde

    #407 Good point. I have read those blogs and generally speaking, they don’t sound very ‘radical’. Why on earth do they label themselves as radfem though?

    example: http://radicalhub.com/

  414. 414
  415. 415
    Valde

    thanks Caine, I will read both posts today!

    hey, Jadehawk is a poser here, no?

  416. 416
    Valde

    lol, poster, not poser

    now, ragarth could be more accurately described as a ‘poser’ :P

  417. 417
    Inaji

    Bobo, yes, Jadehawk is a longtime regular and an OM.

  418. 418
    daniellavine

    Caine@408:

    It’s fairly obvious that radical feminism is a subset of feminism. I’m not sure how my comment implied otherwise.

    Since I don’t know precisely which blogs bobo was reading I wasn’t saying they’re definitely not radically feminist — I couldn’t possibly know without knowing which blogs, could I? I was just guessing that they probably weren’t because the phrase “radfem” is being thrown around by slymepitters when it’s not even remotely appropriate and I’m trying to make sure they’re not the ones dictating the extent of the “radical” subset of feminism.

    I guess I can see where you might get the impression that I was saying “there’s no such thing as radical feminism,” but that certainly wasn’t my intention and seems like an uncharitable reading of what I said.

  419. 419
    Ogvorbis: Still failing at being human.

    Jadehawk is not a poster, though. Pretty sure xe is three dimensional, is not screen printed, and is not strictly a one-message advertisement. ;)

  420. 420
    Valde

    These are the blogs I have perused, please tell me if I am wrong in referring to any of these as ‘radfem’:

    http://cherryblossomlife.com/

    http://antipornfeminists.wordpress.com/

    http://exiledstardust.wordpress.com/tag/feminism/

    http://feministcurrent.com/

    http://factcheckme.wordpress.com/

    http://mechantechatonne.wordpress.com/

    http://lifeinthepatriarchalmatrix.wordpress.com/

    http://lifeinthepatriarchalmatrix.wordpress.com/

    http://rancom.wordpress.com/

    http://smashesthep.wordpress.com/

    http://www.feminisms.org/blog/

    But please, go on assuming I MIGHT be some sort of idiot slymepitter, or something.

    p.s. the crazy thing is, some of thees blogs actually, precisely, talk about ‘radfeminism’ and one even has the name in the title!

  421. 421
    strange gods before me ॐ

    bobo,

    I think this post by Heather is another worthwhile perspective to consider alongside Jadehawk’s.

  422. 422
    daniellavine

    But please, go on assuming I MIGHT be some sort of idiot slymepitter, or something.

    That was not my intention. Sorry to have inadvertently insulted you.

  423. 423
    Valde

    hey, nuns are radfems, right:p

    I mean, they haven’t been spending enough time fighting abortion and contraception, they’ve been doing ‘radfem’ stuff like feeding the poor!

  424. 424
    strange gods before me ॐ

    dawnbyrnes, I hope you’ll post here more.

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