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Sep 29 2012

For the Youtube commenters

I finally had to disable comments on two of my youtube videos, one on Atheism+ and another on the Thunderf00t affair. Why? Because the commenters were just too stupid and far too repetitive. Seriously, if youtube commenters don’t bother to read each others comments, and therefore say exactly the same idiotic comments over and over again, why should I bother to read them myself? And in most of the cases, it was just people reciting their knee-jerk hatred while clearly not even paying any attention to what was actually said in the video (to blame: Thunderf00t linked to those videos, told everyone a distorted version of their content, and then his followers jumped in to regurgitate the Asshole Approved commentary.)

So I finally got bored with the pile of stupid and shut them down. I’m not going to allow comments on any future youtube videos, either — instead, I’ll redirect them to the comments section Pharyngula and let them try to babble here. I’m going to add links to this post to each of the videos; either they’ll ignore it, because it takes too much effort to puke up something on a blog, or we’re about to experience an inundation of inanity. I’m expecting the former; really, these gomers are not the brightest lot.

127 comments

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  1. 1
    evolvehawk

    CENSORSHIP!

    lololol, good going PZ

  2. 2
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    these gomers are not the brightest lot.

    The Pullet Patrol™ is awaiting their arrival with their Groucho mustaches on so they are taken seriously…

  3. 3
    chigau (違う)

    “gomers”
    shame shame shame
    Don’t set a bad example, PZ.

  4. 4
    Gnumann+,with no bloody irony at all (just an anti-essentialist feminist with a shotgun)

    ¡Yikes!

    I can understand the disabling of the comments. Thanks to sheer stupidity and preservance, I’ve read the whole comment field on some vids. It’s not really recommended.

    Redirecting them here though… Are you sure this is a good idea? A nice big warning on relevant treads would be nice (eg: !Warning! May contain youtube commenters).

  5. 5
    Stacy

    these gomers are not the brightest lot

    And how they resent being faced with that fact.

  6. 6
    hogeyegrex

    PZ, your links are bass-ackwards. A+ goes to tfoot and vice versa.

  7. 7
    kosk11348

    PZ, your links are bass-ackwards. A+ goes to tfoot and vice versa.

    How do you know that’s not all part of the disinformation campaign? This is psychological warfare, man!

  8. 8
    M. A. Melby

    YouTube comments are just a whole different animal than blog comments.

    Generally only the first page of comments is read before making new comments. There is a painful amount of just intense vulgar trolling (in the classic sense). There is rarely any real discussion there, and when there is, it reads like a disjointed chat that buries all the other comments.

    Not allowing comments, at all, isn’t very well received generally. However, if there is a means of commenting, that’s not so bad.

    My guess is that someone will just mirror your vids and comment on them on that channel.

  9. 9
    Chris Clarke

    I clicked through and thought the comments seemed actually much smarter than most of Thunderf00t’s fans usually do.

    Then I remembered I still had this installed.

  10. 10
    neilschmidt

    It’s never a good idea to ban comments altogether. Most of the folks who post controversial stuff just ignore the half wits that come trolling along. Let them show their stupidity. Sun light kills ignorance like it does mold.

  11. 11
    PZ Myers

    I haven’t banned comments altogether — they can still make them here.

  12. 12
    M. A. Melby

    Your move is going to be used to support the repeated-meme that you “censor” even if they can comment here.

    The YouTube peeps, in general, do tend to consider shutting down comments (unless there is a very good reason, such as there being children in a video or something like that) as being cowardly.

    Creation Science folks, anti-gay marriage folks, and others are commonly lambasted for not allowing comments.

    Of course, if you made decisions based on how they were going to be perceived – well – that would make your life pretty difficult. :)

  13. 13
    Valindrius

    How long do think it’ll be before they claim that the change was motivated by an inability to accept the superiority of their sceptical scrutiny? Naturally, they know your mind and motivations better than you do. Lying, silencing, hive-mind, free-speech-hating, feminazi, bully!

    Because the commenters were just too stupid and far too repetitive. Seriously, if youtube commenters don’t bother to read each others comments, and therefore say exactly the same idiotic comments over and over again, why should I bother to read them myself?

    I agree completely, the commenters spout inane drivel in the belief that their mind is so gloriously unique that nobody prior to them will have had such deep insights. On top of that, commenting requires minimal investment so those righteous scholars spam the same nonsense until any opposition is spread far too thin for there to be repercussions. It really is an exercise in mob rule when it comes to ‘debates’. It doesn’t matter whether something is coherent and substantiated (as much as it can be with so few characters); it only matters if it has been ‘liked’ or has been labelled as spam.
     
    Whilst the ability to disable comments on Youtube can be misused, I tend to think the derisive attitude towards it is far too general. It seems to rely on the presumption that the uploader is somehow at fault rather than acknowledging the possibility that the commenters are the source of worthless noise and abuse. I would guess that’s because such an attitude serves commenters by absolving any need to consider their actions and because it irritates the special snowflakes when they can’t give their valuable input.
     
    Having said that, I’ve had some rather useful discussions on non-political videos and on smaller educational channels but I avoid anything with a particularly large audience or anything related to atheism. In my rather irrelevant experience, the comments on atheist videos are littered with ping-pong matches between atheists and theists that never offer innovative arguments. On top of that, there’s so much smugness (why shouldn’t they be after refuting a ‘God of the gaps’ argument or Pascal’s Wager for the twenty billionth time?) that I’m surprised commenters don’t collapse into a singularity.

  14. 14
    Hurin

    PZ

    I haven’t banned comments altogether — they can still make them here.

    No doubt, but I’d still be willing to bet the first 10 or so youtube users who come here will launch into diatribes about your censorship, and how un-freethought it is. Maybe Tfoot will even make a video about it.

  15. 15
    meursalt

    chigau @3 said:

    “gomers”
    shame shame shame
    Don’t set a bad example, PZ.

    I was under the impression that “gomer” is a slur against either Koreans, Russians, or people from the southeast US (I’ve never been clear which). Is this what you’re objecting to, chigau? Perhaps there’s some other meaning you and I are not aware of?

    A cursory web search turns up other slur meanings, specifically against white people, or people who are “stupid or clumsy.” Maybe PZ would like to clarify which meaning he was using?

  16. 16
    machintelligence

    I thought it was a reference to the character Gomer Pyle (USMC) on the TV show of the same name. He was someone anyone could feel superior to: dumb as a box of rocks.

  17. 17
    oolon

    Creation Science folks, anti-gay marriage folks, and others are commonly lambasted for not allowing comments.

    Thunderf00t has already tweeted that PZ has ‘gone full creationist’ and banned comments… So expect a few more people over here complaining about “free speech”!

    Interestingly he tweeted this a long while back – must have been pretty close to when you disabled comments. Unless there is some sort of pingback for YouTube videos it makes you wonder how often he was checking the comments :-)

  18. 18
    chigau (違う)

    meursalt
    Search for ‘gomer’ and ‘shame shame shame’.

  19. 19
    LeftSidePositive

    I’m going to add links to this post to each of the videos

    Maybe embed each video as a separate post here, so that comments can be easy to follow and on-topic?

  20. 20
    karpad

    Youtube is the worst part of the internet.

    Sure, people will credit that title variously to 4chan, various MRA blog, 9gag, reddit or Rush Limbaugh’s website. But here’s the thing.
    All the people who are awful on all of these other sites (and awful for whatever reason) then go to youtube where they are ALSO awful. Except there, they have enough of a name and audience to be vain and self absorbed, but not enough identity to allow someone to punch them in their face, sue them effectively, or otherwise self-censor for polite society.

    So you get the stupid. You get the shallow. You get the petty. You get the mean. but you don’t get the walls keeping others out/in, dedicated social-group admins, or the protecting echo chambers they were using right before going on Youtube.

    The fact that youtube also does the whole free exchange of ideas thing so well, and is also one of the best parts of the internet is kind of mortifying. So you might, for example, have the entire series “The Ascent of Man” posted in its entirety (it is, BTW.), and one of the top comments on one of the videos is making fun of his accent. Or a very hairy, genial and kind of milquetoast hobbit of a man who devotes half-hour videos to reviewing various board games, and top comment might be “12:44 ur thumb looked like a penis” Or. well. Literally anything posted in the comments of an atheist, feminist or any combination thereof video on youtube, no matter how uncontroversial and genuinely informative it might be.

    Youtube is exactly what it sounds like. a tube (ie, Television) of “YOU.” the mass of individuals. And everything about it, from the posts to the comments, are structured to loudly chirp “LOOK AT ME!” And that little vanity is particularly ugly when manifested in people who truly have nothing to offer.

    Like this, for example. Where I’ve spent paragraphs attempting a novel phrasing of “well, yeah, youtube comments are awful.”

  21. 21
    Mattir, Another One With Boltcutters

    I’ve only ever heard the term “gomer” from physician friends, for whom it meant any excessively aggravating person whom one longed to tell to “get out of my emergency room.” Not a particularly nice sentiment, but one which anyone who’s done front-line social or medical service work can understand.

    And YouTube comments are a cesspit of stupid. I have never encountered one (and yes, I browse them occasionally) that added anything to my understanding of any topic other than that of how vacuous a whole lot of people on the Internet are.

  22. 22
    Menyambal

    Way to deprive people of their free speech, PZ. Not by blocking comments, but by not reading the comments that they write. How can you be so selfish, that you spend your time in something other than absorbing their spite. Un-American! /sarc

    Seriously, YouTube comments are one of the dumbest places on the internet, and Tfoot’s fanboys seem to be one of the others.

    Sadly, blocking comments is taken poorly, generally. I wish YouTube defaulted to no comments, and had inviting comments as the option. I bet that would change the feelings of a lot of folks who don’t think things through.

    Most YouTube comments are useless, and commenting threads often wind up being a war between the religious and the non-religious, the conservative and the liberal, the smug and the assholes, or whatever two irrelevant groups get radically off topic. And, as PZ says, few read the other comments before posting their own bit of drivia.

    Just to show I’m not knee-jerking after PZ, I’m gonna say he should have left commenting open there and ignored the buggers, and certainly not have invited the gomers over here. (But this is his blog and this could be fun.)

  23. 23
    meursalt

    @chigau #18:

    meursalt
    Search for ‘gomer’ and ‘shame shame shame’.

    Well surprise, surprise! It’s been a while since I’ve seen the show, so I didn’t recognize the quote initially.

    So chigau, was your objection merely tongue in cheek? Were you objecting to the term “gomer” or to PZ’s disabling comments? This term has raised red flags for me before in PZ’s posts, but I never really felt motivated to call it out. But since you’re a respected commenter here whose posts I’ve usually found to be spot-on, and since no one had responded to your comment #3, I thought I’d press the issue and try to get a consensus opinion. Apart from Pharyngula, my exposure to the term outside the show itself was mainly from interviews with American Korean war veteran fighter pilots, who referred to enemy MiG pilots as “gomers.”

    I never really understood using “gomer” as an insult. Pvt. Pyle was socially and physically inept, but he was also fundamentally good-natured and caring.

    PS: Shazam!

  24. 24
    chigau (違う)

    meursalt
    I was kidding about the use of the term ‘gomer’ as an insult.
    I’ve never heard ‘gomer’ as a racial slur.

  25. 25
    meursalt

    @chigau #24:

    Fair enough. It’s entirely possible I’m being oversensitive. Thanks for the clarification.

  26. 26
    Mike

    Thank you Chris Clarke, that link made me hero of the day to my daughters.

  27. 27
    unclefrogy

    well as of late the lack of suitable “prey” to chew on has made some of the posts & threads rather calm but interesting.
    I kind of like it.
    directing them here would be like
    the shark tank at feeding time.
    or kind of like a Victorian shooting party where the game is driven into the waiting hunters , a pigeon shoot
    not a lot of drama but plenty of carnage
    might be fun to watch?
    uncle frogy

  28. 28
    A. R

    I must say, once you get into specialist videos, the comments can be pleasant and informative. Classical music is a great example.

  29. 29
    Menyambal

    Thank you, karpad, for the “Ascent of Man” link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QetE6WvBFY

    And yeah, as great as that series looks, there are some dumb-ass comments.

  30. 30
    Subtract Hominem, a product of Nauseam

    Why do the YouTubers get their own thread? Can’t they all just be redirected to Thunderdome, somehow? That would have higher chewtoy value.

  31. 31
    chigau (違う)

    Subtract Hominem #30
    Don’t worry.
    I expect most that come here will end in [Thunderdome].
    (rubs claws hands, gleefully)

    It’s been, what, four hours.
    Where are they?

  32. 32
    Naked Bunny with a Whip

    Thunderf00t has already tweeted that PZ has ‘gone full creationist’

    Because the defining trait of creationists is their YouTube comment policy, not, oh say, their views on evolution.

    Why doesn’t he just start screaming “ME ME ME!” and be done with it? He’s got nothing else left to say.

  33. 33
    gregvalcourt

    Part of the reason I’m atheist is because I don’t blindly trust authority. I believe everyone has right to express their view, especially when their view is being scrutinized. I don’t have to like other peoples views, but I’m not one to block or delete posts I don’t like. Let readers decide what they think about comments, don’t decide that the readers don’t need to see it FOR THEM.

    I used to be a regular reader of PZ and I don’t follow thunderfoot. I haven’t seen the video or the comments, but I don’t need to. If the comments are largely unintelligent, then your intelligent readers should be able to see that. Controlling or outright banning comments is nothing short of manipulating the general consensus. This is not something that someone who believes in freedom or democracy would do.

    Sure you can block comments all you’d like, and I’d agree that your not impeding anyone’s free speech, but your not exactly promoting free speech either.

    Free Though blogs my ass. Toe the line or be ostracized here.

  34. 34
    gregvalcourt

    PZ is like Michael Voris, he doesn’t allow comments on his YouTube videos.

  35. 35
    shockna

    I believe everyone has right to express their view, especially when their view is being scrutinized. I don’t have to like other peoples views, but I’m not one to block or delete posts I don’t like.

    And by posting a link to the comments here, they’re being given exactly that right.

    I’ll admit I’m certainly not a fan of the decision either, but it’s disingenuous to pretend that posts are being blocked or deleted; if they don’t want to take the few minutes to register an account to comment here, they probably don’t feel terribly strongly about it (Or have a warped idea of the comment flow here; hardly PZ’s problem).

    The only line to toe here is “be a decent human being”. I’m not seeing how ostracizing those who refuse to be is a bad thing.

  36. 36
    Rip Steakface

    The thing about YouTube comments is they get buried easily. Therefore, it’s not easily seen that Asshole #12361′s comment is identical to Asshole #5674′s comment, and so the former posts unaware of the repetitiveness.

  37. 37
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Toe the line or be ostracized here.

    And yet, you bravely step over the line with no thoughts about your own comfort. That is admirable. Risking being ostracized for this? Not just anyone would have enough motivation and courage to do it. But you did. I applaud you, sir.

    Everyone, please give a standing ovation to gregvalcourt.

    Show some respect to this brave man before you turn your traitorous backs on him and start ostracizing him.

    *stands up*
    *claps, with the sound of a tiny violin playing in the background*

  38. 38
    unclefrogy

    you know I have hardly ever read more than 4 comments on YouTube it is too much trouble, to be provided a link to here as the comments page substitute is perfectly fine I would say it is an even higher profile place for the comments than lost on youtube people here actually might read them. It’s the fuckin internet it is not like you have to get a bus and go across town or anything.
    a few clicks away from anything it is.

    uncle frogy

  39. 39
    echidna

    I haven’t seen the video or the comments, but I don’t need to.

    Just take a look, and you will see that comments are simply redirected here. There’s no reason to think anything is censored – it’s just brought the comments onto PZ’s domain.

  40. 40
    AshPlant

    I’m not one to block or delete posts I don’t like.

    Don’t, then.

    Controlling or outright banning comments is nothing short of manipulating the general consensus. This is not something that someone who believes in freedom or democracy would do.

    If only he’d made it possible for people to continue commenting on these videos, perhaps linking straight from the videos to the site where people can do so if they wish! What a shame that the opportunity has been completely lost and shut down with no opportunity to continue expressing dissent or otherwise.

    Sure you can block comments all you’d like

    Yup. Especially advisable if they’re youtube comments, which, let’s face it, are universally shit.

    and I’d agree that your not impeding anyone’s free speech

    Then what the arse is the point of your post? If you’re still undecided, go away and haver for a few hours, find an opinion, then come back and use it.

    but you’re not exactly promoting free speech either.

    You know what? I disagree. I think that yoochoob comments are:
    A) So incredibly badly formatted and set out – seriously, trying to follow a discussion in them is like trying to play a text adventure game, or navigate a governmental service’s push-1-to-go-in-circles phone menu – and:

    2)So utterly, congenitally, endemically full of utter fucking bullshit posted by the subliterate for the uneducated, and dominated by jibbering monkeys pushing buttons…

    …that any given comment thread actually constitutes negative free speech. Most especially on controversial issues like atheism/A+. Thus, by shutting down these vids’ comments. PZ has actually increased the amount of useful free speech in the world. The fact that he’s allowing the discussion to continue on a website where commenting actually achieves anything is just gravy.

  41. 41
    AshPlant

    Bah! Damn yoooou, pointy brackets!

  42. 42
    a3kr0n

    “I’m not going to allow comments on any future youtube videos”
    Christians do that all the time too when they don’t like what they see.
    “Asshole Approved commentary” I see that from hate sites.
    -Concerned
    ..
    Let the flames begin!

  43. 43
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Because the defining trait of creationists is their YouTube comment policy, not, oh say, their views on evolution.

    Since the TF fiasco I’ve started to recognize what appears to be a YouTube subculture (or maybe a YouTube science and religion subsubculture), with its own lingo, norms, key values, and standards.

    They seem to place an inordinately high moral premium on “free speech,” defined as never blocking anyone from saying anything or following you on Twitter or whatever. Violating that is seen as rank dishonesty, while there appears to be much less attention paid to the quality of thought or presentation and level of intellectual honesty in the actual videos or comments.

    Even though there are some who are talented video editors (like Cristina Rad), this doesn’t seem to be a basis for praise, and there doesn’t appear to be any competition in terms of technical or artistic ability. They seem to prize a naturalistic style that looks stale, lazy, and bad to outsiders. Hmm. I wonder if that’s used as a marker of realism and honesty…

    ***

    Then I remembered I still had this installed.

    I’d ask why there isn’t a version for IE, but I fear my question would be derped.

  44. 44
    AndrewD

    I find the best You tube comments on videos by Anna Vissi/ ΑΝΝΑ ΒΙΣΣΗ or Paola Foka/ ΠΑΟΛΑ ΦΩΚΑ where they are almost always in Greek .My Greek is poor and trying to read them is fun.

  45. 45
    larrymeredith

    I don’t care about thunderfoot, never watched his videos or anything, but I understand the youtube commenting culture is ridiculously dumb. If you’re sick of reading it though, you can just stop reading it. Disabling the comments section, even with an alternative linked to threads, is just as ridiculous. Let them whine and bitch amongst themselves in their youtube community.

  46. 46
    tehconz

    The YouTube comment system is awful, replies seem to appear at random with no threading. It just ends up being an all-caps screaming match between people who aren’t listening to each other.

  47. 47
    zmidponk

    gregvalcourt #33:

    Sure you can block comments all you’d like, and I’d agree that your not impeding anyone’s free speech, but your not exactly promoting free speech either.

    Actually, I think PZ’s actions do promote free speech. You know why? The size limit on Youtube comments are way too strict for any meaningful discussion to actually take place. Your comment, for example, would never fit into a single Youtube comment, and anyone responding to it would not be able to do so to any great length. Here, you can say exactly what you mean, as you like, without having to carefully prune it to fit within the character limit, or have it spread over several comments. Yes, there are some rules you have to follow, but they’re pretty damn obvious and common-sense rules, and, by the way, one of them is NOT ‘toe the line’. If you disagree with PZ, or anyone else here, you’re perfectly free to say so. However, if you’re disagreeing for idiotic reasons, you’ll probably be totally ripped to shreds in the comments.

  48. 48
    PZ Myers

    Every time I create a youtube video, I’m going to close the comments, and then I’m going to add a link in the info to a thread here on pharyngula for discussion.

    That is allowing commentary.

    It does a good thing, though: it throttles the repetitive, freakish, babbling idiots. I’ve read through hundreds of comments on those videos, and almost without exception they left me gobsmacked at their vacuousness. You can call it free speech all you want, but all I know is that the only reason there isn’t universal shame at the abysmal quality of youtube commentary is that the volume is so great that no one reads them.

  49. 49
    mikewolfkin

    Well goooooolly. One of the “gomers” here. For someone who hates discrimination so vehemently, you sure make a lot of blanket statements about YouTubers. Since my argument against your reasoning in the dismissal of thunderf00t video was seen as a part of “the pile of stupid” by you, I will not bother repeating it. Instead, I will point out what I see when people forward their comments to their personal blog rather than accepting comments on their video pages. Overwhelmingly, this is done so that the person can surround themselves with loyal fans who will give them pats on the back and tear into the people who present a different point of view. The comparison has been made to creationists, and I fully agree. Famous youTube Creatard ShockofGod does precisely the same thing, disabling comments on his videos, but encouraging people who disagree with him to “debate” him on his site. We all know why he does this. We all know the concept of home court advantage, where one person has total control over all aspects of the conversation, the owner can delete comments that present valid counter arguments that they can not refute, ban people that are effective at presenting counterpoints, etc.. We also know that users are going to be reluctant to even bother as they will be seen as outsiders and castigated for opposing the blog owner’s opinions. YouTube may have many idiot trolls that have no talent for thought or argument so resort to ad hominem attacks, but at least it is neutral territory. Your moving discussions to your personal site is just dirty pool and you know it (or at least you should know it). Moreover, making blanket statements about the intelligence of youTube commenters seems a transparent ad hominem against the people who disagree with you. The fact that you were only called on this once, and seemingly only in jest shows how skewed in your favor the group is here. By moving the comments here, you are censoring by intimidation if not by more direct means (who knows if you are deleting comments posted here? We already know that you ban people who you disagree with on what seems to be flimsy or false pretense as I do not believe, based on the evidence you presented in your video, that you actually think Thunderf00t was trolling when you banned him from freethought blogs). This may or may not be the reason you moved the discussion here, but I do not see adequate reason to do it otherwise.

    Another thought occurs to me: If you think it is just a “pile of stupid” and you don’t think anyone reads them, why bother blocking comments or setting up this journal? This seams the least convincing of reasons to block comments. A person who didn’t care what was said would simply ignore it and not put up a journal about it, especially if they thought no one read the comments. This reenforces my preliminary belief that you, like shock of god, moved the comments here to get others to fight your battles for you and to get pats on the back from your fans who will tell you how right you are to take the actions you did (I am already seeing people do precisely that: defending your censoring of youtube comments and even saying that discussing here is actually superior, totally blind to the power advantage that it gives you as you are not only the advocate for your side, but also the arbiter of the discussion overall). I am open to other interpretations of your actions if you can give sufficient reason why you think that the severe detriment that the home court power advantage has on the conversation is outweighed by the problems that YouTube presents (comment limits, wading through the ad hominem posts to find the intelligent arguments, etc.).

  50. 50
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    No doubt, but I’d still be willing to bet the first 10 or so youtube users who come here will launch into diatribes about your censorship, and how un-freethought it is

    Well, let’s call you Cassandra, shall we?
    Yeah, it’s the free speech version where you don’t only have to be allowed to say what you want and when you want it without anybody ever taking you to task for it, people also have to provode you a space to say it in, preferrably their space.
    And it’s always a bit cute when they preemptively complain about them being prosecuted and censored and not alowed to say XYZ while saying XYZ.

    mikewolfkey

    For someone who hates discrimination so vehemently, you sure make a lot of blanket statements about YouTubers.

    Yeah, youtubers, the most discriminated against group on planet earth. Get a working definition of what discrimination means and then come back.

    Since my argument against your reasoning in the dismissal of thunderf00t video was seen as a part of “the pile of stupid” by you, I will not bother repeating it.

    So, why mention it?

    Overwhelmingly, this is done so that the person can surround themselves with loyal fans who will give them pats on the back and tear into the people who present a different point of view.

    Or as we like to think about them: chewtoys.
    Get the fuck over your prosecution complex. Give people arguments and stop whining about the fact that people will not just buy your shit. Is it nice coming to the shark tank? Nope, but you know what? People here deal with it. Because contrary to the legend, people here disagree with each other all the time and they don’t suddenly put on the kid gloves.

    We all know the concept of home court advantage, where one person has total control over all aspects of the conversation, the owner can delete comments that present valid counter arguments that they can not refute, ban people that are effective at presenting counterpoints, etc..

    So, do you have any evidence that this is what PZ actually does or is planning to do or did you just write it to get into martyr mode?

    who knows if you are deleting comments posted here?

    Who knows if god exists?
    This blog is active 24/7 while PZ does things like sleeping, eating, pooping, working, speaking on conferences. If something is deleted you can usually easily tell by the fact that suddenly comments are hanging in the air with people replying to stuff you can’t find anymore. And then you read on and then you find one of these red-coloured comments by PZ that say something like “deleted because of X”, while so far X seems to consist posting threats, personal information, criminal content.

    We already know that you ban people who you disagree with on what seems to be flimsy or false pretense as I do not believe, based on the evidence you presented in your video, that you actually think Thunderf00t was trolling when you banned him from freethought blogs

    You know it would be more productive if you actually got your facts straight. Yep, PZ bans people. Only he didn’t ban TF. He was fired from writing a blog here. He is free to show up here and post a comment. So, he is banned the same way you and I are banned because we don’t have a blog here. Is that too hard for you to understand?

    This may or may not be the reason you moved the discussion here, but I do not see adequate reason to do it otherwise.

    That says something about you, not about PZ’s reasons.

    Another thought occurs to me: If you think it is just a “pile of stupid” and you don’t think anyone reads them, why bother blocking comments or setting up this journal?

    Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be your strength once it’s more than 500 characters. Nowhere did anybody claim that nobody ever reads comments. The complaint was about the fact that nobody on youtube seems to read all the comments to see if their point has already been made. Damn, I guess that sentence was too long with too complicated words and structure already.

    I am already seeing people do precisely that: defending your censoring of youtube comments…

    Censorship. that word has a meaning. Learn it.

    BTW, nice catch-22 you’ve set up here: If we argue against you we’ver proven your point, if we keep quiet we’ve proven your point, too.

  51. 51
    Ichthyic

    all I know is that the only reason there isn’t universal shame at the abysmal quality of youtube commentary is that the volume is so great that no one reads them.

    +1

  52. 52
    Ichthyic

    Since my argument against your reasoning in the dismissal of thunderf00t video was seen as a part of “the pile of stupid” by you, I will not bother repeating it.

    If only you had just STFU after that; you might not have proved PZ’s point quite so convincingly.

    ah well.

  53. 53
    Ichthyic

    Christians do that all the time too when they don’t like what they see.

    *yawn*

    better quality bait, please.

  54. 54
    Ichthyic

    Maybe Tfoot will even make a video about it.

    very likely, given his status as the Queen of all Drama.

  55. 55
    Ichthyic

    @Chris Clarke…

    Then I remembered I still had this installed.

    Now I’m wondering if PZ has that installed for THIS thread :)

    btw, I installed it, and am now much less aggravated by inane youtube comments.

    *thumbs up*

  56. 56
    vaiyt

    I like when I’m watching a fun video and see clever comments that have something to do with it. Even when they’re not particularly insightful, they’re fun to read.

    Which only makes me angrier when equally inoccuous videos are filled with arguments about whose pseudohistory is better, or people calling each other no-lifes, or just plain ol’ bigoted assholes.

    Plus, the formatting is horrible. It’s hard to follow discussions.

  57. 57
    Ichthyic

    PZ is like Michael Voris, he doesn’t allow comments on his YouTube videos.

    Gregvalcourt is like Ray Comfort.

    both say stupid shit.

    must be a valid comparison.

  58. 58
    ChasCPeterson

    For someone who hates discrimination so vehemently, you sure make a lot of blanket statements about YouTubers.

    lol
    Let me guess.
    Thunderf00t = Rosa Parks.
    (what’s the internet version of a lunch counter?)

  59. 59
    supersysscvi

    As a counter to those comparing PZ Myers’ actions with creationists, I know a friend who blocked comments on a music video (and just so happens to be an atheist). I forgot the reason why he did, as it was two years ago, but I can certainly add my own anecdote and say that I have around three videos that I don’t monitor because of the sheer volume of the comments.

    I can understand a bit of blocking comments that are just hateful, as one of my videos has comments that say I’m a horrible gamer and should do research first, although now I’m doubting my motive for writing this sentence.

  60. 60
    mikewolfkin

    Yeah, it’s the free speech version where you don’t only have to be allowed to say what you want and when you want it without anybody ever taking you to task for it, people also have to provode you a space to say it in, preferrably their space.

    YouTube is neutral space. It is not controlled by either of the parties involved in the dispute. The fact that you call youtube “their” space is very telling.

    For someone who hates discrimination so vehemently, you sure make a lot of blanket statements about YouTubers.

    Yeah, youtubers, the most discriminated against group on planet earth. Get a working definition of what discrimination means and then come back.

    My point was about stereotyping, which is a key aspect of discrimination. Sorry if that was not clear.

    Since my argument against your reasoning in the dismissal of thunderf00t video was seen as a part of “the pile of stupid” by you, I will not bother repeating it.

    So, why mention it?

    Maybe to point out PZ’s dismissive attitude towards those that disagree with him. Did that occur to you or does it need to be spelled out for you to understand?

    If you really want my argument from there, here it is:
    I pointed out that it is very telling that at 6:58 in the video PZ discusses a misunderstanding taking place in the conversation and says “Either he [TF] is such a bad writer… or that he [TF] is such a sloppy thinker…” The possibility that the confusion is coming from his side never even enters PZ’s mind. He is unwilling to examine his own arguments for flaws. That is a sign of dogmatic, not critical thinking. It is quite hypocritical from someone like PZ, who gave a talk titled “Scientists! If You’re Not an Atheist, You Aren’t Doing Science Right!” to be unwilling to examine his own arguments for flaws. That is doing science wrong.

    Overwhelmingly, this is done so that the person can surround themselves with loyal fans who will give them pats on the back and tear into the people who present a different point of view.

    Or as we like to think about them: chewtoys.
    Get the fuck over your prosecution complex. Give people arguments and stop whining about the fact that people will not just buy your shit. Is it nice coming to the shark tank? Nope, but you know what? People here deal with it. Because contrary to the legend, people here disagree with each other all the time and they don’t suddenly put on the kid gloves.

    Just sharing what I have observed. Not a persecution complex if it is true. If I did have a persecution complex I would not have bothered posting here, would I? Though I do notice you do not attempt to dispute this point, you only mock me for having made it.

    We all know the concept of home court advantage, where one person has total control over all aspects of the conversation, the owner can delete comments that present valid counter arguments that they can not refute, ban people that are effective at presenting counterpoints, etc..

    So, do you have any evidence that this is what PZ actually does or is planning to do or did you just write it to get into martyr mode?

    Seeing as I stated lower down that I don’t know that that is what he was doing, I think it is quite clear that I do not. And nowhere do I state that that is what PZ is doing. I state that it is my preliminary belief that that is what he was doing and set conditions under which I would change my opinion. Moreover, it does not need to actually be happening for the perception of it to squelch free speech through the power imbalance that it creates. I note that you cut out all my comments about a power imbalance. Does this mean you concede those points?

    We already know that you ban people who you disagree with on what seems to be flimsy or false pretense as I do not believe, based on the evidence you presented in your video, that you actually think Thunderf00t was trolling when you banned him from freethought blogs

    You know it would be more productive if you actually got your facts straight. Yep, PZ bans people. Only he didn’t ban TF. He was fired from writing a blog here. He is free to show up here and post a comment. So, he is banned the same way you and I are banned because we don’t have a blog here. Is that too hard for you to understand?

    Sorry, but the facts that you want me to get straight are not evident. Do let me get this straight, you are telling me that if Thunderf00t came here to this blog, he could post comments, that he is not banned from posting comments? If there is a place that I can check that fact, please tell me where I can do so. If so I will retract that portion of my statement, but I have seen numerous statements to the contrary stating that he was “banned”. These statements came from people on both sides of the argument.

    Reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be your strength once it’s more than 500 characters. Nowhere did anybody claim that nobody ever reads comments. The complaint was about the fact that nobody on youtube seems to read all the comments to see if their point has already been made. Damn, I guess that sentence was too long with too complicated words and structure already.

    Who has poor reading comprehension skills?
    Maybe you should read the comment that PZ made that appeared directly above my own. “… all I know is that the only reason there isn’t universal shame at the abysmal quality of youtube commentary is that the volume is so great that no one reads them.”

    I am already seeing people do precisely that: defending your censoring of youtube comments…

    Censorship. that word has a meaning. Learn it.

    So you are saying that censorship by intimidation through power imbalance does not happen? I know equal rights activists that would disagree with you.

    BTW, nice catch-22 you’ve set up here: If we argue against you we’ver proven your point, if we keep quiet we’ve proven your point, too.

    Thanks, but no, you could have proved me wrong by letting PZ address my comments himself or by addressing my concerns in a fair and rational way rather than one that resorted mostly to mockery. Or did that never occur to you? Since you proved me right in my prediction will you be calling me Casandra too?

  61. 61
    chigau (違う)

    Well.
    That was more than 500 characters.

  62. 62
    supersysscvi

    Um, I’d like to fix an error I made in my previous post. As I don’t exactly do a good job expanding my vocabulary, and as I was a bit pressed for time, I meant “disabled” whenever I said “blocked”, as that’s what it says on Youtube videos.

    I apologize for that mistake and others that I’ve made within my previous post, as I’m trying to not be a walking trigger warning.

  63. 63
    mikewolfkin

    Well.
    That was more than 500 characters.

    True, and apparently I made a mistake with my blockquote tags. I am not familiar with this blog’s systems yet. I will be more careful in the future. That said most of what I said would be irrelevant if PZ had just left comments on at YouTube. As for what I had pointed out about his video, as comments were disabled, I could not retrieve my original comment and had to type it from memory. Youtube’s Character limit does force one to be concise, and I did have to trim that comment when I had posted it there. However, I was still able to communicate the relevant points in my YouTube comment with 500 characters.

  64. 64
    Tethys

    Mikewolfkin

    Sorry, but the facts that you want me to get straight are not evident. Do let me get this straight, you are telling me that if Thunderf00t came here to this blog, he could post comments, that he is not banned from posting comments? If there is a place that I can check that fact, please tell me where I can do so.

    Go to the dungeon tab at the top of the page, and you will find that t-fool’s name is not listed there.

  65. 65
    Ichthyic

    He is unwilling to examine his own arguments for flaws.

    wait…

    you examine a VIDEO post for evidence that one self examines?

    uh, usually by the time one puts up a video, the self examination process has already been done.

    OTOH, it’s quite clear that YOU don’t apply any self examination for flaws before you posted that.

  66. 66
    Ichthyic

    most of what I said would be is irrelevant

    ftfy

  67. 67
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Do let me get this straight, you are telling me that if Thunderf00t came here to this blog, he could post comments, that he is not banned from posting comments? If there is a place that I can check that fact, please tell me where I can do so. If so I will retract that portion of my statement, but I have seen numerous statements to the contrary stating that he was “banned”.

    Look up PZ’s OP comments when he talks about the controversy, where he personally says TF can post here. Do your own homework. But for evidence TF is not banned from commenting, and the easiest way to see that is to check the dungeon on the masthead, were all banhammered trolls reside.

    People have been telling lies about the situation over at You-Tube and the MRA sites. TF was fired from FtB. His posts are still there, no deletions have occurred. Look before you present unevidenced attitude.

  68. 68
    Ichthyic

    These statements came from people on both sides of the argument.

    you might actually try looking back on who, if anyone, actually said that.

    or are you imagining it…

    there might be some flaws you haven’t yet examined in your argument…

    :P

  69. 69
    Tethys

    Moreover, it does not need to actually be happening for the perception of it to squelch free speech through the power imbalance that it creates.

    There is no power imbalance involved in commenting anywhere on the internet. This has nothing to do with free speech. I’m sure you too can post videos to youtube, or start a blog.

    As for your perception, Chicken Little told all the animals that the sky was falling. It didn’t end well.

  70. 70
    mikewolfkin

    Too many people to reply to individually, so single group comment on the issue.

    I find it funny that many of you are criticizing me for the “flaws in my arguments”. I never said that he hadn’t examined his arguments for flaws. I said his statement showed unwillingness to even conduct such an examination in the case of the misunderstandings between TF and PZ. Yes, there was a demonstrated flaw in my arguments, and may be more, and where they are pointed out, I ask for evidence. Is that unreasonable? I am willing to examine my arguments for flaws. Clearly, the information that I had about TF being banned was wrong. I have repeatedly show willingness to revise my position if you can show me that my conclusions are based on false information or faulty reasoning, yet repeatedly you guys choose instead to mock me, saying “do your homework” (I tried but only found ambiguous information at best and TF, and others had used the word “banned” maybe “banned” was being used in a different context by those people or they were unjustly exaggerating) or “Maybe you just imagined it.” (I did not) The problem I have with PZ’s statement is not that it assumes he is right in the video (everyone makes that assumption about themselves). It is that the statement shows a fundamental unwillingness to even consider the possibility that he might be wrong. TF and PZ had a misunderstanding and PZ as much as said that the only person that can be to blame for the misunderstanding is TF. That is what I am calling dogmatic thinking.
    I do thank those of you who pointed me to the dungeon section of this site, I had never heard of such a section before. If it needs pointing out again, I am completely new to this blog and have no means of knowing these nuances.
    I also thank some of you for proving my original point that anyone that presented an opposing view would be seen as outsiders and attacked by PZs fans. This, more than anything, shows part of the clear power advantage that PZ has here on his blog that he would not have on a neutral site. Many people deny it, but then prove it by their actions. That is not the way to convince people that your side is right. Quite the contrary, it only serves to alienate people who might otherwise come to your way of thinking if you showed willingness to address their concerns in a respectful and rational way. I guess I expect too much of people though. People on the internet are just far too jaded and assume everyone is a troll or closed-minded zealot.
    It seems clear to me now based on the discussion here. I no longer think that PZ wants the discussion here where he has the power advantage, I now believe that PZ simply doesn’t want comments on his videos at all except from his fans. If that’s what he wants, that’s fine. I’ll move on.

  71. 71
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Yes, there was a demonstrated flaw in my arguments, and may be more, and where they are pointed out, I ask for evidence. Is that unreasonable?

    Well, it’s far from the ideal way to proceed. The best approach is to try your best to do your homework before making an argument, or to ask questions in lieu of making an ignorant one.

    This would allow you to avoid…well, what’s happened here, and help you to arrive at the facts of the matter, which should be your goal. I’m not sure why you think it reasonable to throw out uninformed statements and then expect others to counter them. Seems rather epistemically arrogant.

  72. 72
    Nepenthe

    Dude, paragraphs are your friends. I know it’s hard to get used to talking out here in the world where thoughts go on for more than a few hundred characters and that you’re probably scared. But just start slow. Even just pressing enter randomly every 100 words or so would be super to start with.

  73. 73
    Ichthyic

    I now believe that PZ simply doesn’t want comments on his videos at all except from his fans. If that’s what he wants, that’s fine. I’ll move on.

    given just the length of your rambling, inane, diatribes…

    perhaps that would be best.

    but, please… stick your flounce?

    kthxbye

  74. 74
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I have repeatedly show willingness to revise my position if you can show me that my conclusions are based on false information or faulty reasoning, yet rep

    Either you are a mature adult who knows how find information, or a egotistical idjit who wants to be spoonfed like an elementary school student. That is the problem you are having here. Mature your thinking, and you do need to do your homework.

    Quite the contrary, it only serves to alienate people who might otherwise come to your way of thinking if you showed willingness to address their concerns in a respectful and rational way.

    That requires them to come here respectul and show they are rational. You didn’t. You came with attitude and disrespect, and we responded accordingly. Nobody gets treated with respect who doesn’t show any.

  75. 75
    jacklewis

    “Either you are a mature adult who knows how find information, or a egotistical idjit who wants to be spoonfed like an elementary school student.”

    Most elementary students can write better than that and can also feed them selves using utensils. That’sooo Nerd, classic!

  76. 76
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Most elementary students can write better than that and can also feed them selves using utensils. That’sooo Nerd, classic!

    Your irrelevancy is so classic JackLewis. If you didn’t post, nobody would miss a thing. And you aren’t funny either, just pathetic. Typical MRA.

  77. 77
    Amphiox

    Most elementary students can conduct themselves with a greater degree of integrity and honesty than jacklewis.

  78. 78
    Kaessa

    For those who find YouTube comments as inane as I do, there is a Chrome extention that will allow you to completely block them called YouTube Options for Google Chrome. Lots of other nifty features as well.

  79. 79
    brianbesthorne

    Great decision, sometimes you tube commentators are just a waste of time.

    Regards,
    Brian besthorne

  80. 80
    jacksul

    who cares if “the commenters were just too stupid and far too repetitive?” Years ago I visited Pharyngula and was a little surprised that one of the things that could get you banned was “stupidity.”

    Imagine an honest person who seriously thinks that creationism is correct. If you ban or block him/her for stupidity then you seem closed minded. You seem to fear debate.

    Banning or censoring people for stupidity/ignorance is just mean, and against everything the enlightenment stands for. Stupidity is no crime. Willful ignorance is a crime. Intentional dishonesty is a crime.

    The only people who ban comments on their videos are fundamentalists. Let the angry and hatred on youtube in your comments section flow. It only vindicates your position in the eye of unbiased observers.

  81. 81
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Imagine an honest person who seriously thinks that creationism is correct.

    there is no such person.

    If you ban or block him/her for stupidity then you seem closed minded. You seem to fear debate.

    What debate? Facts are debated. They are either accepted by the intelligent, or ignored by the fuckwitted.

    Banning or censoring people for stupidity/ignorance is just mean, and against everything the enlightenment stands for.

    No, it only means they have nothing intelligent to say. As you prove with your fuckwittery, pretending there to are two equivalent sides to every issue. Not in the the case of facts versus fiction.

    The only people who ban comments on their videos are fundamentalists.

    Assertion unsupported by evidence, therefore dismissed as fuckwittery.

    Let the angry and hatred on youtube in your comments section flow. It only vindicates your position in the eye of unbiased observers.

    It isn’t needed at all. You have presented nothing but idiocy.

  82. 82
    Menyambal

    Unbiased observers?

    Anybody who is unbiased hasn’t been very observant.

  83. 83
    jacksul

    Thank you, Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls, for being the first person to reply to my comment. My first experience on Free thought blogs.

    I don’t even know what “fuckwittery” is, but I do feel pretty awful. I’ll assume that you’re a good guy and try to keep an open mind nevertheless. I’ll assume that you’re jaded from encounters with too many intentionally ignorant or intentionally dishonest people.

    A few questions if you don’t mind:
    1) Do you really, honestly think that my opinions were so off the wall as to deserve that rebuke?
    2) Do you really think that no creationist is honestly mistaken?
    3) Do you think that people should be condemned for ignorance?
    4) Do you think that people should be condemned for stupidity?
    5) If a skeptical atheist who values the enlightenment and classical liberalism “[presents] nothing but idiocy,” then do you blame him/her or try to educate him/her?

    It goes without saying that (as a fair-minded skeptic) I take no sides and am eager to change my mind if I am wrong.

  84. 84
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Do you really, honestly think that my opinions were so off the wall as to deserve that rebuke?

    Yes.

    Do you really think that no creationist is honestly mistaken?

    No, they have three fallacies that make them dishonest, 1) the fallacy that their imaginary deity exists, and 2) that the babble isn’t a book of mythology/fiction, and 3) anything other than more science can refute science.

    Do you think that people should be condemned for ignorance?

    Not ignorance per se, but the inability to acknowledge their ignorance and learn. Which requires them to shut the fuck up and listen to those who do know.

    Do you think that people should be condemned for stupidity?

    Deliberate stupidity, yes.

    If a skeptical atheist who values the enlightenment and classical liberalism “[presents] nothing but idiocy,” then do you blame him/her or try to educate him/her?

    What do you mean with this word salad. You presented nothing cogent. You pretended everybody is equal. They aren’t.

    I take no sides and am eager to change my mind if I am wrong.

    Then you aren’t a skeptic. A skeptic isn’t just neutral, but does have opinions and null hypotheses. The null hypotheses require real evidence to be changed. Being neutral means nothing, and isn’t skeptical. I’ll look at any evidence (not just opinion) you present. You presented nothing but OPINION.

  85. 85
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    And Jacksul, PZ directs people to post here, where real discussion can be done. Why do you find that offensive?

  86. 86
    jacksul

    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls, Thank you for the answers. I appreciate them and they are mostly helpful.

    I was once an honest creationist (not quite true, I was actually somebody who thought ID was a scientific theory just as valid as the evolutionary theory.) But a friend convinced me to read a few books by some good biologists and the overwhelming weight of the evidence convinced me that evolution was a fact and that natural selection was the most probable mechanism to explain it. In the following years I moved towards atheism. I was ignorant. Now I understand the science. It is a beautiful thing.

    Are you more interested in making yourself feel good by bullying ignorant creationists or in spreading scientific truth to honest, but misinformed, truth-seekers?

  87. 87
    chigau (違う)

    jacksul #83

    Thank you, Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls, for being the first person to reply to my comment. My first experience on Free thought blogs.

    Did you look at the posting-time of the comments?
    This thread was dead until you resurrected it.
    (except for brianbesthorne blogwhoring)

  88. 88
    vaiyt

    Are you more interested in making yourself feel good by bullying ignorant creationists or in spreading scientific truth to honest, but misinformed, truth-seekers?

    Well, bring us a truth-seeking creationist and we might think about it.

    So far, not one that ever showed up here was interested in learning fuck all.

  89. 89
    jacksul

    chigau (無)
    lol. I did not actually. The first of many mistakes I’m sure.

  90. 90
    John Morales

    jacksul asks Nerd:

    Are you more interested in making yourself feel good by bullying ignorant creationists or in spreading scientific truth to honest, but misinformed, truth-seekers?

    You don’t think both are simultaneously possible?

  91. 91
    jacksul

    John Morales,

    Of course they are simultaneously possible, but a very different type of goal is involved.

  92. 92
    John Morales

    jacksul, nope; simultaneity implies both goals are involved.

  93. 93
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    Are you more interested in making yourself feel good by bullying ignorant creationists or in spreading scientific truth to honest, but misinformed, truth-seekers?

    I’ll answer honest questions politely. Leading “gotcha” questions result in ridicule, as they should. As a working scientist, I don’t accept a word of their bullshit on how they think science works, and they are surprised to learn how little non-presuppositional evidence they really have. Usually they show up to preach their ignorance. They either learn the science or move on.

    Of course they are simultaneously possible, but a very different type of goal is involved.

    Nope, same goal. Teach them to really think, and not really accept authority of preachers in areas the preachers are profoundly ignorant in. Which is everything including the bible.

  94. 94
    jacksul

    They don’t understand how science works at all. That’s the problem. *Some* of them don’t want to understand, and I guess it’s fine to ridicule those people if it makes you happy. It might even do some good occasionally.

    I didn’t expect you to answer like that, especially if you are a working scientist. Teaching/Preaching feels great. Giving the benefit of the doubt doesn’t feel good. It feels tedious. Ideally a skeptic would go into every situation assuming that there is a possibility that the other guy might be right. I haven’t engaged in very many exchanges online so maybe I’m naive, but often think about this Carl Sagan quote when dealing with an intelligent but misinformed person:

    “Have I ever heard a skeptic wax superior and contemptuous? Certainly. I’ve even sometimes heard, to my retrospective dismay, that unpleasant tone in my own voice. There are human imperfections on both sides of [any] issue.”

    It is shocking that two skeptics would ever fight in the way seen between PZ and thunderf00t. If two skeptics disagree they should be overjoyed! It means that they can sit down and try to find the truth together. If the other guy seems unreasonable, then the solution is to double down on self-criticism. It should be simple to solve most disputes, assuming that’s the goal.

  95. 95
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    deally a skeptic would go into every situation assuming that there is a possibility that the other guy might be right.

    Wrong. A skeptic has the null hypothesis to say “since there is no evidence for bigfoot, it doesn’t exist”. Therefore, positive and conclusive evidence is needed for consideration. You know. 1) captured bigfoot, 2) recently dead bigfoot, 3) bigfoot skeleton, 4) hair or dung that contains DNA tags for bigfoot. Evidence will be looked at. OPINION will be dismissed.

    It is shocking that two skeptics would ever fight in the way seen between PZ and thunderf00t.

    Not surprising. TF dismisses what women have to say. PZ doesn’t. With PZ and myself, the null hypothesis is that patriarchy exists and causes bad behavior by males toward females. TF dismisses this null hypothesis out of hand. But the evidence says PZ is right.

    It means that they can sit down and try to find the truth together.

    That only works works if TF will shut the fuck up and actually listen to women. You go and work on him. He isn’t worth the effort as far as I am concerned, as his mind is closed to evidence.

    If the other guy seems unreasonable, then the solution is to double down on self-criticism.

    Show me where TF is undergoing self-introspection on the subject. He lost because he ignored the evidence. TF must be the one to change.

    It should be simple to solve most disputes, assuming that’s the goal.

    Why do you consider that the goal here? TF is wrong. Period, end of story. Until he admits that there is no need to talk, as TF isn’t listening, nor should he be listened to on the subject.

  96. 96
    jacksul

    “Wrong. A skeptic has the null hypothesis to say “since there is no evidence for bigfoot, it doesn’t exist”. Therefore, positive and conclusive evidence is needed for consideration. You know. 1) captured bigfoot, 2) recently dead bigfoot, 3) bigfoot skeleton, 4) hair or dung that contains DNA tags for bigfoot. Evidence will be looked at. OPINION will be dismissed.”

    I read this very carefully and I don’t think you’re right about the null hypothesis. If I make the claim, “There are alien civilizations peppered throughout the milky way,” then the skeptical response is for you to reject my claim. That’s proper use of the null hypothesis. It is not proper use to say that “Because there is no evidence of alien civilizations in the milky way, they do no exist.” The good skeptic will reject both claims and wait for the evidence.

    I have never seen any good evidence that a new species of primate exists in the Pacific Northwest, so I reject the claim that “Bigfoot exists.” However this does not mean “Bigfoot doesn’t exist.” It just means that there’s no reason to believe the Bigfoot existence claim until good evidence is discovered. So I don’t believe Bigfoot exists. In my experience almost no atheists will actually say they are “sure no Gods exist.”

    “That only works works if TF will shut the fuck up and actually listen to women. You go and work on him. He isn’t worth the effort as far as I am concerned, as his mind is closed to evidence.”

    TF has pulled some shady moves and he needs to sharply increase his level of self-criticism. I’m more sympathetic to PZs side than TF. I even call myself a feminist and I am generally sympathetic to the stated goals of A+, which needless to say does not matter one bit to the validity of my arguments. But TF doesn’t block comments or ratings that annoy him on his channel even if they seem stupid or repetitive. PZ seems to have the facts on his side and he has nothing to fear from the stupid or ignorant words.

  97. 97
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    There are alien civilizations peppered throughout the milky way,” then the skeptical response is for you to reject my claim.

    No, that is statistically likely. The fact that they have visited Earth with the SoL limit is a problem.

    It just means that there’s no reason to believe the Bigfoot existence claim until good evidence is discovered. So I don’t believe Bigfoot exists. In my experience almost no atheists will actually say they are “sure no Gods exist.”

    I agree totally, so your point is what? Other than obfuscation?

    PZ seems to have the facts on his side and he has nothing to fear from the stupid or ignorant words.

    Again, what is your point other than obfuscation? TF isn’t banhammered at Pharyngula. Check the dungeon on the masthead. He could post here at any time? So, what is your POINT?

  98. 98
    John Morales

    jacksul:

    But TF doesn’t block comments or ratings that annoy him on his channel even if they seem stupid or repetitive.

    But PZ didn’t do that: “So I finally got bored with the pile of stupid and shut them down.”

    (He redirected all YT comments here, where the pile of stupid is somewhat leavened)

  99. 99
    jacksul

    (He redirected all YT comments here, where the pile of stupid is somewhat leavened)

    If Fox News blocked comments on their channel (which I think they do) and directed them to their own forum where the pile of secular liberalism could be leavened, what would you think? Of course they have the legal right, but it’s not something you do if you’re interested in truth. Putting up with stupid people is not that bad.

    what is your POINT?

    Most certainly not obfuscation. I made an initial point and we got off on several tangents.

    The main point was made because I was shocked that PZ would block comments and rating on his videos. We can stop now if you like. This isn’t at all the kind of responses I expected from a bunch of skeptics and I don’t see your style of argument convincing me any time soon. It is probably just my naivety at the way actual internet groups fight in the messy real world vs an ideal skeptical, self-critical, truth-finding community.

  100. 100
    John Morales

    jacksul:

    If Fox News blocked comments on their channel (which I think they do) and directed them to their own forum where the pile of secular liberalism could be leavened, what would you think?

    I’d think they weren’t blocked overall, but redirected to a different site.

    BTW, when did Fox News become someone’s personal soapbox?

    (When making analogies, it’s best to compare the same categories if relevance is sought)

  101. 101
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    jacksul:
    You are not the ultimate arbiter of what is or is not ‘that bad’. You like YouTube comments-great. Clearly other people don’t agree. To expect PZ to agree with you is arrogant.
    Also, how have you determined they aren’t that bad? Have you read the vast majority of comments on PZs videos? I suspect you haven’t because then you would understand where PZ is coming from.

  102. 102
    jacksul

    I’d think they weren’t blocked overall, but redirected to a different site.

    Really? At least you’re consistent. So do you value the marketplace of ideas at all?

  103. 103
    John Morales

    jacksul, to what marketplace of ideas to you refer, if not the one in which you’re currently participating?

    (You imagine PZ is blocking freedom of expression?)

    More to the point: are you being blocked?

    Are you being discouraged from commenting about one of PZ’s videos?

    (If not, what exactly is your beef?)

  104. 104
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    I guess stupid YouTube comments being directed here somehow interferes with the exchange of ideas in the marketplace. No idea how, since people can comment here. For that matter, given what PZ has said about those comments, its questionable how much value they have. But if idiotic YouTubers want to post their excrement, they can do it here. PZ is under no obligation to provide people a place to comment. That people seem to think he does is bizarre.

  105. 105
    jacksul

    I guess stupid YouTube comments being directed here somehow interferes with the exchange of ideas in the marketplace. No idea how, since people can comment here. For that matter, given what PZ has said about those comments, its questionable how much value they have. But if idiotic YouTubers want to post their excrement, they can do it here. PZ is under no obligation to provide people a place to comment. That people seem to think he does is bizarre.

    Yes. PZ is under no obligation to allow a free exchange (mostly useless) of ideas. It doesn’t matter who thinks they have value. The vast majority of them are crap. Just like in evolutionary biology. The vast majority of mutations are harmful.

  106. 106
    SallyStrange

    Re: The “marketplace of ideas”:

    If people truly think their ideas have value and are worth sharing, they will invest the tiny amount of effort it takes to navigate to a different page, enter a burner email address, and set up a password.

    To post a comment on Youtube, the cost is very very low. To post on Pharyngula, the cost is ever so slightly higher. Those who cannot be bothered to come to Pharyngula obviously do not think it very valuable to share their ideas, so why should we put more value on their ideas than they do?

  107. 107
    jacksul

    If people truly think their ideas have value and are worth sharing, they will invest the tiny amount of effort it takes to navigate to a different page, enter a burner email address, and set up a password.

    That’s true, and I did, but you can understand that it makes people nervous moving to PZs private house to make comments when on all other videos (besides fox news and creationists) they can comment directly on youtube with their existing accounts. Youtube is already a community, and a very open forum. That means you get a lot of slimeballs, but it is so easy to ignore those crazy people and scan to the thoughtful comments. What’s the harm in leaving comments open there? Would you do what he did?

  108. 108
    Ingdigo Jump

    That means you get a lot of slimeballs, but it is so easy to ignore those crazy people and scan to the thoughtful comments.

    SNIFF AAAAAAAAAAAAH GRADE-A Fine quality Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuullshit

  109. 109
    John Morales

    jacksul:

    [1] What’s the harm in leaving comments open there? [2] Would you do what he did?

    1. No-one has claimed it’s harmful, so whence your question?

    2. No. I have no inclination whatsoever to post a video on YouTube.

    The vast majority of mutations are harmful.

    Really? You’re so very sure that most aren’t just neutral?

    (Care to provide a reputable citation for that claim?)

    PS I don’t have a YouTube account; it’s never been worthwhile for me to create one.

  110. 110
    jacksul

    Really? You’re so very sure that most aren’t just neutral?

    You’re right of course. Most are neutral. My mistake. I should have said something like harmful/useless.

  111. 111
    Rutee Katreya

    That’s true, and I did, but you can understand that it makes people nervous moving to PZs private house to make comments when on all other videos (besides fox news and creationists) they can comment directly on youtube with their existing accounts.

    No, I don’t understand that, actually, and further it isn’t really true that ‘all youtube videos except fox news and creationists block comments’.

  112. 112
    Rutee Katreya

    Would you do what he did?

    No, I wouldn’t faff about and dither, they’d be immediately closed if I was posting anything that might be even remotely controversial to white dudes. In fact, I’d probably close them all my videos, including the irrelevant ones, because there’s no sense leaving room for angry assholes.

    So no, I would not do what PZ did, but not in the direction you expect.

    That means you get a lot of slimeballs, but it is so easy to ignore those crazy people and scan to the thoughtful comments

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g
    Checkmate.

    I didn’t look around. That was the only tab with youtube on it.

  113. 113
    jacksul

    1. No-one has claimed it’s harmful, so whence your question?

    2. No. I have no inclination whatsoever to post a video on YouTube.

    1) Assuming that criticism is not harmful, I ask why PZ would ban any conversation on youtube, the forum that he selected for his excellent video rebuttal to TF.

    2) My question was this: if you were a member of an anarchistic forum like youtube populated mostly by people who disagree with you, and you posted a controversial video, then would you let everyone speak their minds or would you re-direct comments to a more friendly forum where you were judge and jury?

    I admit that given the chance I would be tempted to move my critics into my house where I could check up on them. It would be much less annoying to not be bothered by annoying people who disagree with me.

  114. 114
    jacksul

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLKWw542g
    Checkmate.

    That video was not an argument and I found no difficulty in ignoring those comments. Did you?

  115. 115
    John Morales

    jacksul @113:

    1: No need to ask, it’s in the OP. Read it for your answer.

    (Or, that something is not harmful is not sufficient reason why it need be necessary or even desirable)

    2: Leaving aside that you are conflating authorship with participation, I’ve already told you I would not post any videos.

    But in the spirit of your question, I tell you that you are invoking a false dichotomy when you ask “would you let everyone speak their minds or would you re-direct comments to a more friendly forum where you were judge and jury?”.

    (Are you not now speaking your mind? ;) )

    It would be much less annoying to not be bothered by annoying people who disagree with me.

    You’re a bit slow, no?

    Once again, read the OP: PZ isn’t disallowing YT comments because they disagree, but because he finds their stupidity and repetitiveness annoying.

    (Is it not obvious to you that you’re even now disagreeing with him, yet here your comments are?)

    Seems to me that your contention is that PZ redirecting comments to his YT videos to his blog is an unfair restriction to free speech because (a) it’s onerous having to log in to comment here and (b) it makes people nervous that those comments may receive responses from regular partisan blog commenters.

    (If so, then I find that a less than compelling claim*)

    * Or, to rephrase in YT-speak, LOL U suk!!1!

  116. 116
    Rutee Katreya

    That video was not an argument

    and I found no difficulty in ignoring those comments. Did you?

    And did you get to the alleged thoughtful comments with no effort?

    That isn’t even weapons grade stupid. For that, you should check out the blog post where thunderfoot stamped his feet and tried to preserve the oh so wonderful youtube comments that PZ drew, insisting that something of value was lost. (It wasn’t.)

    Further, ‘easy to ignore’ for you is meaningless. I don’t know you. It is reasonably likely that you have nothing to fear from comments; you have a reasonable expectation that everything is meaningless if you don’t like it.

    For some of us, threats are personal. Because we exist at higher risk than you of bad things happening to us, because we both receive more threats, and they’re more likely to be acted upon. I don’t really think PZ has quite the same concerns from threatening assholes, but it doesn’t change that ‘easy for you to ignore’ is not the only relevant metric.

  117. 117
    Rutee Katreya

    And no, the video isn’t an argument itself. Did you think it was supposed to be? I generally make my own arguments. That video was the only tab I had open in youtube. Because I don’t have to search to find stupid comments that are pointless and add no real discourse on youtube; those are the default.

    And we’re to propagate that default because you say so? Pass.

  118. 118
    jacksul

    John Morales, I wish we could sit in the same room for an hour because I think we could convince each other. Some points of disagreement between us would be easily resolved.

    (Is it not obvious to you that you’re even now disagreeing with him, yet here your comments are?)

    I have noticed. As a matter of fact I came here terrified of being banned, but was not, and I have already used that fact to argue against the flood of anti-FTB comments on youtube on several posts where I used to argue the other side.

    I may be a bit slow but I’m trying to be honest. For those youtube people it is about a fear of being censored by PZ for disagreeing with him. When PZ said “We encourage outsiders,” the top comment was “go onto PZs blog and post something he doesnt like and see what encouragement you get.”

    The next comment was: “Oh fuck off, PZ! Anyone who starts their argument with “the reason I censor my critics is …” doesn’t deserve ANY respect. From anyone. Period.”

    I’m trying to talk some sense into these people too because groups of skeptics shouldn’t have these fights. Unlike religious people we have built-in mechanisms for resolving disputes and getting to the truth, or so I thought.

  119. 119
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    Jacksul:
    Fear of being censored? What…can vloggers not delete comments on YouTube? And again, PZ has said the vast majority of comments he’s read were stupid and/or repetitive. Perhaps he’d have allowed comments at YouTube if that were not the case.
    ****
    Oh and I’d pay money to watch YOU try to convince John of your point. I believe you would fail miserably. Your main point seems to be ‘its not fair that PZ won’t let people respond to him where they want’. That’s extremely shaky ground for you to argue from and as demonstrated here, you’re not doing a good job of justifying your position.

  120. 120
    John Morales

    [meta]

    jacksul, so — welcome to Pharyngula! ;)

    (Maybe I’ll see you around in some other thread, sometime)

  121. 121
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I’m trying to talk some sense into these people too because groups of skeptics shouldn’t have these fights. Unlike religious people we have built-in mechanisms for resolving disputes and getting to the truth, or so I thought.

    Well, you didn’t think. It is obvious you don’t understand skepticism, how to apply it, or what it really means. It doesn’t mean everybody will get along. That is presuppositional accommodationism. Accommodationsim is a dirty word around here.

    I ask why PZ would ban any conversation on youtube, the forum that he selected for his excellent video rebuttal to TF.

    For PZ’s reasons, look here. And show some scholarship by doing your own homework. I makes you look smarter than expecting to be spoon-fed data.

  122. 122
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    As a matter of fact I came here terrified of being banned, but was not, and I have already used that fact to argue against the flood of anti-FTB comments on youtube on several posts where I used to argue the other side.

    If one comes with reasonable arguments and attempts to debate, it is hard to receive the banhammer. Some of the Slymepit™ have received the banhammer, but when they arrive, they make inane arguments on what skepticism means (doubt everything except what I say, and especially doubt anything Rebecca Watson, any other woman, or feminist says), and uses nothing but attitude and ridicule in order to enforce their definitions. They disappeared quickly after being warned.

    You are safe.

  123. 123
    chigau (違う)

    You are safe.

    For now.
    bwahahaha
    bwahahahahaha
    bwahahah*cough*ha*cough*
    meh

  124. 124
    aemon21

    No allowed comments on youtube? Well fine, i find time to make acc so i can comment.
    I know alot will probably respond “who cares” or something similar but here it goes.
    I have been watching youtube videos of atheistic comunity for some time now.
    Myself an atheist i find them very interesting, helpfull and entertaining. When one is living in 90% christian country doesent have much chance to talk to other atheist’s. Most of my life i have been trying to tell my fellow country men that i DO NOT BELIVE in satan becouse i am an atheist! Crazy mofos these christians yes i know. :)
    What made me comment this for me stupid and childlike situation is cenzureship and making sexsizm alot more of a problem then it actualy is! And belive me i know what is sexist becouse when you live in Croatia where people are stupid beyond belive you find many examples of it.
    What i dont understand is why is this blog called free thought when you (PZ Myers) explain for a few mins in your video that actualy isnt?
    Why do i have a feeling of elitist behavior when watching your videos, when you talk about FTB, when reading comments of people in this blog? There is some air of “we are better and smarter then thoose your tube junk commenters here”… Well you all may be. But i am meeting many other persons who are way less inteligent, less smart then me but i show them the proper respect as a human being!
    I was born a bit better but does that gives me right to look down on them?? No it doesent nor it should to you all! YouTube comments may be stupid and out of topic but cenzorship is never the answer!
    This is first time i am ashamed of being an atheist and we as a group failed!
    Saying to the world “we are better, smarter then you” will not get us anywhere and will only criple our couse to steer humans from the chain’s of religion!
    Also i was not aware that Thunder, not PZ had fanboys? Did some replace their faith with a personality cult? it sure seems like that…
    There is some weird looking dude on youtube “skyzthelimi7″ saying that famos atheist leaders are suffering from fame syndrome. And i somewhat get his point.
    From watching some Pz video i do get a sense of a big ego!

    Rant over, sry for spelling errors, i am Croatian after all not English.

  125. 125
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    @124:
    There is much fail in your comment. Educate yourself on sexism and patriarchy before you so quickly dismiss these very real problems.

  126. 126
    John Morales

    aemon21, you’ve just successfully demonstrated you can in fact comment upon PZ’s videos right here.

    There is some air of “we are better and smarter then thoose your tube junk commenters here”… Well you all may be.

    There is some air of ‘I am better’ in your passing judgement upon this place, too, but I see that hasn’t stopped you. :)

    Rant over, sry for spelling errors, i am Croatian after all not English.

    You did pretty well, considering.

    (However, there is at least one Croatian commenter here whose English is far better than is the norm for native English speakers)

  127. 127
    aemon21

    Tony, dont you tell me that i need to educate myself for sexism when i live in a country where female’s are asked on a job application do they plan to have a family and how much children do they intend to spawn!
    I know sexism when i see one happening! Asking a girl for a coffee in a lift (wich i belive started it all, i may be wrong dough) is not sexist.. And i did not dismiss the problem either.
    You say i fail at my comment but you fail at demonstrating at wich points. You only mention sexism.

    John Morales,
    It was not my intention to pass my judgment on anybody nor do have the right to do so.
    I shared my opinion on the matter, there is a difference. Read my comment once more and you will probably find it out.

    Thanks for commenting on me.

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