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Jul 10 2012

You want to see bullying?

I’ll show you bullying. Laci Green has been hounded off tumblr by some very confused and evil people — they are threatening her and sending her pictures of where she lives.

You can see why I say confused: they’re accusing her of being transphobic and anti-islamic; I wonder if they even know what the first word means. She’s neither — she writes a sex blog — but it wouldn’t matter if she were. Trying to frighten people off the internet with physical threats is inexcusable, and I hope the police are on this case.

224 comments

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  1. 1
    jamessweet

    Well, I know Iran has some.. unusual policies relating to transexuality and homosexuality. Like, they’ll arrest you if you are gay, but the government also provides SRS free of charge. Not knowing what Laci Green said, it is entirely conceivable to me that someone from Iran might level the charges of “transphobia” and “anti-Islamic” in the same breath.

  2. 2
    jamessweet

    Not that that (my comment #1) is relevant, of course; regardless of any of that, this kind of bullying is beyond unacceptable.

  3. 3
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    That’s terrible. I hope no one will follow through with the threats. It must be a scary situation.

  4. 4
    One Thousand Needles, lumper-splitter

    If the photo files have any metadata included, it could be useful for tracking down these thugs. This is highly likely if the photos were taken with a smartphone.

  5. 5
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    It seems that she used the word “tranny” in one of her old videos. She later apologized. As far as I know, that’s it.
    From what I’ve seen on her tumblr, she’s supportive of trans* rights.

  6. 6
    megs226

    I believe this is probably the background to the transfobic accusation: recently (last week maybe?) someone asked her on tumblr why she used the word “tranny” in a video back in 2008. She apologized publicly and profusely, saying that it’s *not* an acceptable word and that she was 18 at the time and ignorant of the negativity of the word, and said it’s been forever banished from her lexicon and went on to explain to her followers why we shouldn’t use it.

    I think she did a great job apologizing and explaining herself, and I think her blog is really great at breaking down all barriers. I especially liked her video on why atheists should care about religion. Trans people may feel differently than me, though.

    But this reaction is absolutely unacceptable. No question. No argument.

  7. 7
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Death threats are never acceptable.

    Nor is bullying.

    “Do I want to see bullying?”

    No, I’ve seen and experienced enough of that in person in my life.

    I want bullying to end. I want a world where bullying is called out and stopped and criticised and not allowed to happen.

    A world where people are left alone and given the freedom and opportunities to be just who they want to be without harrassment from anybody – provided they’re giving the others that same courtesy. (ie. NOT being bullies themselves.)

    I don’t like my chances of ever living in such a world unfortunately. But its what I hope for and I try to work towards it.

    Symathies to Laci Green. Don’t let the bastards get you down or stop you from saying and doing and being what you want to be. As long as it isn’t hurting anyone.

  8. 8
    Adamvs Maximvs

    You guys are being ridiculous. Talking about getting threats of violence is just as big a problem as getting threats of violence.
    After all if we can’t make threats of violence, we can’t have all the great fun of a random bar brawl. Way to ruin EVERYTHING!

    /sarcasm.

  9. 9
    StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    ^ Typo fix : Sympathies to Laci Green. I meant natch.

  10. 10
    megs226

    Oops. a) I should have used trans* and b) to clarify I meant, trans* people may feel differently about her usage and apology of “tranny” than me – I was trying to say that I will not make assumptions on how trans* people feel about her use of the word and apology. And it’s a non-sequitor after the atheist video sentence.

    I’m only a quarter of the way through my first cup of coffee….. *rubs sleep from eyes*

  11. 11
    jamessweet

    Don’t worry, megs226, despite the somewhat awkward early-morning-induced sentence ordering, I thought it was pretty clear which thought was connected to which :) I think people got what you meant.

  12. 12
    megs226

    Thank you, James! I try to be as eloquent as possible when I post on Pharyngula in an attempt to look half as smart as the regulars. 0_o I could sit on Pharyngula all day and read what people are saying in the comments. Sometimes I do…

    sentimental OT moment: Pharyngula kinda sorta changed my life. Really helped me recognized my own privilege, what I can do with that privilege to make the world a better place, and of course helped me along my road to atheism. *sniff* Love you all.

  13. 13
    amyfort

    On Twitter she said she spent yesterday morning on the phone with the police and also that she was trying not to freak out but she was feeling like it isn’t worth making her videos any more – it would be a terrible shame if she felt she had to stop making them.

  14. 14
    davidbohm

    Oh dear, this is completely inexcuseable.

    Transphobia and insulting Islam? My head hurt from trying to understand what type of person would use this type of accusation to argue for violence.

    If she is reading I hope she will get the FBI involved and these people can get the punishment they deserve; It would send a damn good message.

  15. 15
    Sili

    At least they just threaten to beat her. There’s no rape threat, so it can’t be an example of misogyny.

    And therefore FTB are bullies.

  16. 16
    Giliell, professional cynic -Ilk-

    That’s is bullying somebody into silence. But don’t fear, Paula Kirby will be here any minute now and tell her how she should just stop whining over those OTT concerns, get a grip, be a mature adult and seize life with both hands.
    And then she’ll complain about how people disagreeing with her are bullies.

    My sympathies to Laci Green. I hope the police can find the asshole threatening her.

  17. 17
    carlie

    I don’t understand the Islamophobia charges – from what I saw, her family is Islamic (her dad’s entire side of the family), and she said that it’s a horribly sexist religion as experienced by her in her own family.
    And she also said the same thing about Mormonism (her mom’s side of the family), but none of those people yelling “Islamophobe” seem to be calling her Mormonophobic for it.

  18. 18
    davidbohm

    Here is her twitter stream:

    http://twitter.com/gogreen18/

    I am glad she called the policy! I hope whatever dimbulb wrote this will have his/her day in court.

  19. 19
    Drolfe

    Hey assholes, STOP THREATENING PEOPLE, the Internet is not “fake life”. We are all real people.

    [meta]
    Why the use of the splat wild card for transpeople? I thought it was just idiosyncratic before, but I see it spreading.

  20. 20
    christopherjt82

    I have been following PZ’s blog for a couple of years now. This is my first post.

    I have nothing new to say about this B.S but I just want to express my disgust.

    I am Laci Green.

    Come and get me.

    Chris Tapp
    82 Nightingale Lane
    London
    SW12 8NR

  21. 21
    Xanthë, Amy of my threads

    [meta]
    Drolfe, the asterisk is being used as a catch-all for all possible trans identities, given that some of the existing terminology is viewed as being obsolete, or offensive, or in need of redefinition, or is usually interpreted as referring to a subset of transgenderism. So while I might refer to myself as being trans, that doesn’t necessarily spell out what particular trans identity I associate with; referring to trans* people generally, the asterisk is there to indicate inclusion of multiple kinds of identities.

  22. 22
    pentatomid

    Shit. Some people… What can I say. I’m utterly disgusted. Threats of violence are never okay.
    My sympathies go out to Laci and I hope the police find the asshole(s) responsible.

  23. 23
    a3kr0n

    My favorite YT video is still Laci’s “Atheist Elitism”. Too bad she has marked it private. Oh hey, is this a mirror?

  24. 24
    marleyfitz

    PZ – Please advise all that this is NOT bullying…..this is classic cyber STALKING and should be taken seriously. The person has threatened physical harm. This is considered a felony in many states and it is important that Lacy file a report w/ her local police dept IMMEDIATELY.

  25. 25
    nms

    bullies should not be taken seriously and they never threaten physical harm amirite

    -

    tumblr must be an exciting place, these threats make the little interblog squabbles here sound positively genteel

  26. 26
    davidbohm

    marleyfitz: Thanks for the clarification, I missed that distinction myself. If you look upthread she is in contact with the police.

  27. 27
    pentatomid

    Marleyfitz

    I think everyone is taking it very seriously, including PZ. Cyberstalking and bullying are not mutually exclusive and I think certainly in this case both terms are appropriate. How the hell is this cyberstalking not also bullying? Especially since the intent here is to bully her into silence.

    Also, you’ll be pleased to know Lacy has been talking to the police.

  28. 28
    trianglethief

    @christopherjt82

    That was not well thought out. These are not reasonable people and you could put other people at risk of harassment, or even in danger by posting information like that. Never mind your idiot self. Christ.

  29. 29
    birgerjohansson

    I once used “Trannie” because there are parts of the anglo-saxon world where it is not an insult.

    Anyway, I strongly condemn any threat of physical violence to silence political and religious dissent.
    — — — — — — —
    Criticizing bad practices by religious communities and/or theocratic states is not the same as racism (anticipating the tired old argument used by apologists).

  30. 30
    left0ver1under

    Here’s part of an email I sent to her:

    Disgusting doesn’t say it all nor say enough, but I can’t think of another word at the moment.

    Unfortunately, I can do nothing about the stalkers and trolls, and can offer you nothing from a distance other than moral support and well wishing. But it’s better to say it than not say it, to let you know there are people on your side.

    Take care, I hope you’re safe, and hope you can trace the bastards and have them charged.

    Can I suggest others send her a note of support, to show her that civilized people are as vocal as the slime who attacked her? Her email address can be found on her site.

  31. 31
    megs226

    @left0ver1under, that’s a great idea, I’ll do the same.

  32. 32
    Drolfe

    Thanks Xanthë!

    I know this will sound weird, but as much as I hate the creeping militarism in North America and fear strengthening the police state, I really can’t wait for the day when this sort of ALREADY ILLEGAL antisocial activity can be effectively policed online (and so maybe even deterred).

    “More speech” doesn’t seem to be slowing down the death threats and rape threats, and to me results matter.

  33. 33
    anubisprime

    Is this not actually totally and completely illegal?

    The CPS in Blighty get all holier then thou by pursuing a twitter user that made a vague frustrated joke to his fiancé on twitter and has ended up in the high court for his humor.

    What comment is and what is not acceptable in the media and particularly the World Wide Web is a farce.

    But the language usage is important to give a flavor of the message…and the toxic sludge that oozes off that piece of brain fart is unmistakable.

    It is not acceptable…and shame on any lawyer that would dare raise the defense of ‘A Joke’ …but before we condemn a lawyer for doing a dubious job maybe we should also roundly condemn the police for not doing their job at all!

  34. 34
    Tony! The Fucking Queer Shoop!

    That email is flat out vile. Anyone involved in that death threat needs to be locked up.

  35. 35
    Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk

    Well, apparently tumblr… well. I don’t even know what to say. Here’s one dissenter’s take on Laci Green and why this harassment is somehow justified (I know, is this bizarro world? This shit is NEVER okay! It’s not okay when it’s happening to ANYONE! Up to and including MRA scum! Not okay!)

    There is a difference between people who have simple disagreements and people like Laci Green who go out of their way to make racist comments and offend people who aren’t perfectly white like her.

    Yes, she deserves to get her face smashed in by the person who sent that particular message. In fact, I’d love to watch the video she uploaded after that. I’d love to hear her make fun of Jewish noses while her white nose is all smashed to bits. I think it would be hilarious.

    I’m a grown ass woman, honey. No one is going to bully me into suicide and the last person from the internet who threatened to harm me or my family had the police investigate them until she came to me begging for mercy. Which I gave her.

    If Laci Green were smart, she’d quit voicing her bigoted opinions on the internet under the guise of being a feminist. If she were smart, she would have been tracking URLs from day one. If she were smart, she’d be working with the police right now to find out who sent her these so-called death threats (none of which she published. go figure). If she were smart, she’d be breaking her lease and moving far, far, away and leaving her vlogging and blogging to the past. That’s if she’s smart. And if she doesn’t, well she deserves the harassment.

    It’s about time white feminist bitches know that just because they’re white and have tits doesn’t mean they’re right or that everyone is going to agree with them.

    From me to Laci: spend a little less time being a trans hating, Muslim woman hating, Jewish hating, black hating, bitch and spend a little more time learning self defense and how to load, unload, and kill someone with a firearm. Feminist 101.

    SOurce: http://zombiejihadi.tumblr.com/post/26903352054/i-wish-they-were-serious-if-people-disagree-with-you

    I seriously don’t even know what to say. I’m sure Laci DID fuck up – whatever the actual fuckup is – because hey, we all fucking fuck up sometimes, no matter how hard we try.

    But this? This shit is STILL NOT OKAY!

  36. 36
    Pteryxx

    Word is getting out, and Twitter users are chiming in with messages of support.

    Twitter search:

    http://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/gogreen18

    From a supporter in London, who says it so well I have nothing to add:

    I have many times posted videos or quotes from Official Laci Green, a social justice blogger and sex positive sex-ed person. She’s a personal hero of mine and she has helped me get over so many prejudiced opinions and taught me to be more open-minded and accepting of others. And now she’s being threatened by people sending her pictures of her house and making threats against her life and it’s making her not only feel horrible, but considering quitting.

    If someone, anyone, could just send her a tweet her @gogreen18 and tell her not to give up and to keep educating people despite these clearly disturbed bigoted assholes (that prove in these actions that her fight is a needed one), you’d make my day, not to mention Laci’s. I can only imagine how afraid and unsure of herself she must feel now. As a favor to me and to her, show some solidarity with Laci.

    Quoted in:

    http://hultnerreports.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/the-harassment-of-laci-green/

    (No hashtag yet. Hmmm…)

    Also FYI her youtube channel is here:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/lacigreen?feature=results_main

  37. 37
    Ingdigo Jump

    Um PZ you might want to scrub that address someone posted. Not cool.

    If Laci Green were smart, she’d quit voicing her bigoted opinions on the internet under the guise of being a feminist. If she were smart, she would have been tracking URLs from day one. If she were smart, she’d be working with the police right now to find out who sent her these so-called death threats (none of which she published. go figure). If she were smart, she’d be breaking her lease and moving far, far, away and leaving her vlogging and blogging to the past. That’s if she’s smart. And if she doesn’t, well she deserves the harassment.

    Yay victim blaming.

  38. 38
    Pteryxx

    these so-called death threats (none of which she published. go figure).

    Victim-blaming with a side of ‘bitchez lie’.

  39. 39
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Gen, Uppity Ingrate,

    That… I have no words.

  40. 40
    Ingdigo Jump

    – Please advise all that this is NOT bullying…..this is classic cyber STALKING and should be taken seriously. The person has threatened physical harm. This is considered a felony in many states and it is important that Lacy file a report w/ her local police dept IMMEDIATELY.

    Cyber stalking is bullying. Hell for the longest time outright abuse was bullying and bullying was just the term we used to down play what other wise would be criminal activity.

  41. 41
    Rey Fox

    An armed society is a polite society.

  42. 42
    zb24601

    It would be nice to know if the picture was taken from Google street view. If so, the jerk may be 1000s of miles away. Also, IMHO, Laci should not have confirmed that the jerk got her address correct. She could have stated that the jerk traced her to a previous address, and she is worried he may get her current address soon.

    I hope the jerk never gets close to Laci (or anyone else he may have threatened), but it would be nice if he gets to experience the joys of being a defendant in a criminal trial.

  43. 43
    Ingdigo Jump

    Also, IMHO, Laci should not have confirmed that the jerk got her address correct. She could have stated that the jerk traced her to a previous address, and she is worried he may get her current address soon.

    Watch your language. It’s very important not to appear to be casting responsibility or blame on the victim here.

  44. 44
    RonSwanson

    This is what Laci was up against.

    1. Laci used the word “tranny” a couple of years ago. She got called on it. She apologized and took down the video. The way she apologized was not good enough for some trans* bloggers.

    2. She was asked about her criticism of Islam and Mormonism in her atheism Youtube channel. She responded reiterating that she hates organized religion.

    Details here:
    http://brennamccaffrey.com/2012/07/09/internet-threats-against-sarkeesian-and-green-shut-down-debates/

    There’s a section of Social Justice tumblrs that don’t take kindly to religious criticism it seems. Apparently pointing out that Islam is sexist amounts to racism, imperialism, cultural appropriation or whatever else they can throw at you. This is worrisome.

  45. 45
    Ingdigo Jump

    Apparently pointing out that Islam is sexist amounts to racism, imperialism, cultural appropriation or whatever else they can throw at you. This is worrisome.

    The problem is that they are often correct. There are lots of people who clearly only give a rats ass about women when it comes to Islam’s crimes. Not that this is one of those cases and any fucking Social Justice Advocate should just shoot themselves in the goddamn face if they thought this was helping or appropriate at all. Such issues have enough trouble with being labeled radicals or being told to tone it down or not worry or not alienate the straights without actual fucking half cocked zealots justifying such criticisms.

  46. 46
    RonSwanson

    The problem is that they are often correct. There are lots of people who clearly only give a rats ass about women when it comes to Islam’s crimes.

    That’s very true. Especially in the US. But as you hint, in this particular case? No way. I think Laci’s track record speaks for itself. If she’s not a true-blue feminist then who the hell is? This is not some right-wing Christian nutjob all of a sudden caring about women in Islamic countries. There’s enough video of her showing where she stands.

    Anyway, this has been pretty damn depressing to watch.

  47. 47
    jackrawlinson

    Pretty vile. And quite right of you to suggest that some forms of bullying are worse than others. Sort of like Dawkins suggesting that some forms of harassment are worse than others.

  48. 48
    Ingdigo Jump

    @RonSwanson

    And even if that’s the case. Acting like a fucking petty thug doesn’t help!

    If people are upset about criticizing Islam as sexist and they respond with terrorist threads; well fucking own goal!

  49. 49
    Ingdigo Jump

    Pretty vile. And quite right of you to suggest that some forms of bullying are worse than others. Sort of like Dawkins suggesting that some forms of harassment are worse than others.

    Oh fuck off.

    to the TZT with you.

  50. 50
    Ingdigo Jump

    Pretty vile. And quite right of you to suggest that some forms of bullying are worse than others. Sort of like Dawkins suggesting that some forms of harassment are worse than others.

    Though yes, bring up your support of RW harassment in relation to this. Good show.

    GOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL!!!!!

    *for those playing along at home the difference is that Dawkins said “people have it worse so SHUT UP” which was meant to shut down discussion.

  51. 51
    Pteryxx

    Sort of like Dawkins suggesting that some forms of harassment are worse than others.

    Except for the whole ‘zero bad therefore STFU’ conclusion, of course.

  52. 52
    chigau (違う)

    Oh fuck off.
    to the TZT with you.

    Seconded.

  53. 53
    Ingdigo Jump

    Hey everyone! Look! Jackrawlson is trying to shut down people talking about this! He is trying to derail! He must approve of the harassment against this woman since he wants people to stop encouraging each other to send her support! Everyone point and laugh at him

  54. 54
    Adam

    I love how religionists begin criticizing atheists by comparing us to themselves; telling us we have faith, gods and that atheism is a religion.

    Is this a form of self-loathing?

  55. 55
    pentatomid

    Clueless Jack strikes again! Just piss off, Jack, or at least go to TZT, where you belong.

  56. 56
    Adam

    Whoops… wrong thread…

    I had meant to say that I’m still trying to figure why they used the word “transphobic”, I got really confused when I read that in there. I got an image of a bunch of radical transsexuals threatening people with violence.

    “CIS SCUM!”

  57. 57
    christopherjt82

    @trianglethief

    Perhaps I am an idiot. But threats from keyboard warriors don’t scare me. They are cowards.

  58. 58
    Ingdigo Jump

    Perhaps I am an idiot. But threats from keyboard warriors don’t scare me. They are cowards.

    Ask PZ to revoke the address.

    a) no one can be sure it’s really you giving your real address so as far as we know this is ACTUALLY more of the same bullying/harassment/terrorism

    b) These people can/do move to real life.

  59. 59
    davidbohm

    Scene: Two 50-something FBI agents talking with a pimply 19 year old kid in a room with no windows. Pages from a print-out version of terrorist handbook (copy-pasted into word and then printed out) lies spread out on a table between them.

    FBI agent 1: So you claim your activities regarding obtaining and re-distribution terrorist material was in fact related to other activities than stalking and harassing Ms. Green?

    FBI agent 2: Did you intend to re-distribute the material in question to mr (flips through papers) Troll?

    Kid: *help*

    ***

    Choise quote:

    “Using broad-based communication channels to threaten, harm and intimidate and then incite others to do the same will not be tolerated.”

    – John G. Perren, FBI Special Agent in Charge of Counterterrorism, Washington, DC field office, October 2010

    I for one think she is brave for getting the police involved. I dont know anything about tumblr, but if I was operator of the network I would put some serious thought into figuring out how this happened.

  60. 60
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    But threats from keyboard warriors don’t scare me. They are cowards.

    Every violent attacker has to start somewhere. Yes, most of those (hopefully, all of them) who sent her threats would never actually follow through. But you can never know.

    And I know that it makes you feel good to call them cowards, but it just spreads the meme that they are not dangerous. They are, or they could be, or some dangerous fucker could read their threats and feel encouraged.

  61. 61
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I hate this idea that the only ones sending internet threats are harmless pimply kids writing from their parents’ basement. It downplays the problem.

  62. 62
    Pteryxx

    Perhaps I am an idiot. But threats from keyboard warriors don’t scare me. They are cowards.

    Not all of them, and they aren’t operating in isolated vacuums. The dangerous individuals that have a high profile AND take it to meatspace are just easier to catch on average than the dangerous sympathizers who have enough brains to stay quiet.

  63. 63
    pentatomid

    christopherjt82
    How very nice for you. You know, you can stop the bloody macho posturing behaviour now. Just ask PZ to remove the adress.

  64. 64
    davidbohm

    Beatrice: That was why I included the quote by John Perren. Threats (such as the above) is a felony (IANAL) and should be reported.

  65. 65
    Rip Steakface

    Watch your language. It’s very important not to appear to be casting responsibility or blame on the victim here.

    Correct. However, it still would have been a smart move on her part… or at least that’s what I’m thinking off the top of my head. I’m probably wrong somehow – could someone explain?

  66. 66
    Pteryxx

    Rip Steakface: my first thought was that lying about her address might give the police excuse to ignore her reporting the threats, for instance; or that the attackers would take it as a challenge to the credibility of their threats and “prove” it correct by taking more direct action.

  67. 67
    Cipher

    That is some fucked up bullshit. Coming from the “social justice” community of tumblr? What the fuck are y’all even doing?

    Yes, she deserves to get her face smashed in by the person who sent that particular message. In fact, I’d love to watch the video she uploaded after that. I’d love to hear her make fun of Jewish noses while her white nose is all smashed to bits. I think it would be hilarious.

    Fucking hell.

    I don’t even know where this is all coming from. Seriously? She’s being threatened by multiple people because she used a slur in a video years ago and fully apologized for it, and because she said Islam was harmful to women? My guess would be, based on the wording here, that some assholes have been nursing grudges against Laci Green for the usual reasons – woman speaking up in public! – and took a brief squabble as an opportunity to shut her up. (Oh, and if you’re actually from the sj community and did this, you’re a disgrace. As are the people posting approvingly about it.)

  68. 68
    lordyuppa

    @41
    Try telling that to Treyvon Martin.

    I’m so sad to hear this happened. I’ve been a fan of Laci for a while and support her wholeheartedly. I’m going to send her an email of support, I hope she keeps making her videos.

  69. 69
    Pteryxx

    whoops… and I completely spaced on the larger point, which is that it’s much easier for us *who aren’t receiving the threats* to think tactically and/or unsympathetically. She doesn’t need to be portrayed as doing it rong.

  70. 70
    Cipher

    Sort of like Dawkins suggesting that some forms of harassment are worse than others.

    When you’re down to misrepresenting the arguments of the people you’re supposedly defending… even you ought to realize you’re failing.

  71. 71
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    lordyuppa,

    I’m fairly sure that was meant to be sarcastic.

  72. 72
    Sassafras

    I had meant to say that I’m still trying to figure why they used the word “transphobic”, I got really confused when I read that in there. I got an image of a bunch of radical transsexuals threatening people with violence.

    Since this casts an already vulnerable, hated, tiny minority with few legal rights and little stable support, as violent radicals, it makes me suspect this person is intentionally using trans people as a scapegoat or disguise for their real motivations (I suppose they could also just be dangerously out of touch with reality but that seems like an outlier). I have never seen any evidence of anything even approaching transphobia from Laci, and in fact she’s been amazing at speaking up for gender diversity. Her one mistake, she apologized profusely and sincerely. I’m proud to count her as an ally and an advocate for people like me.

    Would something like a “Trans People Support Laci Green!” campaign be useful? I’m not good at organizing things but I could make a logo or something …

  73. 73
    bertrandrussell

    “You want to see bullying?”

    Bullying comes in many, many different forms, and some bullying is worse than others. Pointing out instances of worse bullying doesn’t get those of you who are bullies here off the hook. It’s no different then the guys from the Italian Job pointing over to Ocean’s 11 and saying “that’s real thievery.” Not a perfect analogy, I know, but the point should be readily comprehensible.

  74. 74
    Goodbye Enemy Janine

    Wow! A tone troll using the name of a respectable person in order to sneer at us.

    Sad.

  75. 75
    Cipher

    those of you who are bullies here

    Be specific.

  76. 76
    Sassafras

    @72 – Er, to clarify, in that comment the person in “it makes me suspect this person” I’m referring to is the original person who threatened Laci, NOT adamatkins, who I quoted just as a lead-in.

  77. 77
    Nick Gotts

    If these death threats really are from “Social Justice Tumblr”, I don’t want whatever kind of “social justice” it is that is advanced by sending death threats.

    Perhaps I am an idiot. But threats from keyboard warriors don’t scare me. They are cowards. – christopherjt82

    No “perhaps” about it.

  78. 78
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    A couple of thoughts:

    1) MRAs have been known to take up the “transphobia” banner, because they interpret bigotry against trans women as a form of misandry. It’s incredibly appropriative and erases trans women’s identities, but it has happened.

    2) Even a “vulnerable, hated, tiny minority with few legal rights and little stable support” may have one or two violent reactionaries hidden within them. Human beings are human beings, with all the foibles that can come with that. If any trans* people were involved in this threat, they would not be speaking for trans* people in general. Only those threatening her are responsible.

    I think her apology for the use of “tranny” was perfectly appropriate and taking down the video was the right thing to do. However, even if she hadn’t done the right thing, threats of violence are wrong. Whoever is threatening violence and looking up her address is in the wrong, regardless of what group those people belong to.

  79. 79
    Rey Fox

    To clarify, I was being sarcastic, referring to the shitstain who suggested that Laci get a gun. I was also in a hurry, apparently.

  80. 80
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Ron Swanson:

    There’s a section of Social Justice tumblrs that don’t take kindly to religious criticism it seems.

    While I agree with Ing’s response, I’ll note that the criticism doesn’t have to be of religious minorities. Plenty of liberal xtians who are into SJ refuse to grasp that they have privilege in society, and they whine whenever they’re called on it.

    Rawlinson, there are literally millions of other places on the internet where you can pull your pud raw. Could you kindly find one of those, thanks?

    Christopher, you are not helping. As Pentatomid said, you are posturing. At best, your comment does nothing constructive. Cut it out.

    Cipher:

    Coming from the “social justice” community of tumblr?

    There are people who take on that mantle to conceal other agendas. There are also people who are new to the concept and are Doin It Wrong. I’m not saying that either is a majority. I’m just saying they exist.

    Lordyuppa, Rey Fox was not only being sarcastic, he was quoting the vastly overrated Robert Heinlein.

    Janine:

    Wow! A tone troll using the name of a respectable person in order to sneer at us.

    “#FTBullies threw me in prison for protesting the war.”

  81. 81
    Ingdigo Jump

    While I agree with Ing’s response, I’ll note that the criticism doesn’t have to be of religious minorities.

    True, but we were talking specifically about Islam where that complaint very often does have a point. This reads to me like someone upset that a woman is talking and appropriating everything they can to cast shame.

    Sort of like how the Slyme Pit will decry the use of ‘ableist’ or misandronyist slurs here…they don’t really care it’s just a moral myopia looking for reasons to attack someone.

  82. 82
    ChasCPeterson

    I wonder if jackrawlinson is Elevator Guy…

  83. 83
    Ingdigo Jump

    I wonder if jackrawlinson is Elevator Guy…

    If so shame on you for putting him on the spot like that! Don’t you know how socially awkward he is? He’s like a baby deer you probably just spooked him away!

  84. 84
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    …probably just spooked him away!

    I wish.

  85. 85
    Sassafras

    Caerie @ 78 – You’re right of course, it just seems super-suspicious to me because transphobia didn’t seem like the part they really cared about. Of course I’ve known a couple of completely vicious trans people, I just hope people coming into this from outside will not blame the rest of us for one lone violent ass.

  86. 86
    ricardodivali having sniffles over stiffles

    #35

    spend a little less time being a trans hating, Muslim woman hating, Jewish hating, black hating, bitch

    This may be the same person. I would at least be suspicious that two different people have both got overexcited about a very old comment that has been apologised for.

  87. 87
    Ingdigo Jump

    Of course I’ve known a couple of completely vicious trans people, I just hope people coming into this from outside will not blame the rest of us for one lone violent ass.

    The assholes will, but they’re looking for a reason

  88. 88
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    True, but we were talking specifically about Islam where that complaint very often does have a point.

    That’s true.

    Also, I should have read the Brenna McCaffrey post to which Ron links in its entirety, because it fails on a few levels. Given that the paternal side of Green’s family is Iranian, and that both Islam and Mormonism “dominated my life in a really painful way,” I disagree with McCaffrey that Green owes anyone an apology.

    McCaffrey also witters in the comments about how “many Muslim women who have reclaimed Islam’s sexist traditions and made veiling and other customs that many people regard as ‘oppressive’ into empowering actions.” I’d substitute “empowerful” for “empowering,” TBQH.

    And then there’s this piece of false equivalence:

    When the same Tumblr bloggers who get angry over Laci Green’s comments also scream “Die, Cis Scum” rather than explaining what cis-privilege is, are they really any better than the Westboro Baptist Church with their “God Hates Fags” mottos?

    Awesome understanding of privilege there.

  89. 89
    Cipher

    There are people who take on that mantle to conceal other agendas. There are also people who are new to the concept and are Doin It Wrong. I’m not saying that either is a majority. I’m just saying they exist.

    The first one would usually be my default assumption, but from what you said on TET about the tumblr sj community and from what I’ve seen over there, I get the impression they may have a real problem with the second over there. Which is frustrating.

  90. 90
    stakkalee

    I’m confused by jackrawlinson’s comment. If he agrees with Dawkins point doesn’t that mean he should STFU about being bullied because Ms. Green has been bullied worse?

    Also, sympathies and support to Laci – no one deserves death threats.

  91. 91
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Sassafras:

    I just hope people coming into this from outside will not blame the rest of us for one lone violent ass.

    I agree. That’s kind of why I wanted to head things off by pointing out that even if it were trans* people doing this (and I really have my doubts, for the reasons you mention), this would not be something the vast majority of trans* people would advocate. I especially don’t want this shit being used to discredit actual claims of transphobia.

    Whoever is threatening and stalking Laci Green is an asshole, plain and simple.

  92. 92
    Ingdigo Jump

    McCaffrey also witters in the comments about how “”many Muslim women who have reclaimed Islam’s sexist traditions and made veiling and other customs that many people regard as ‘oppressive’ into empowering actions.”” I’d substitute “empowerful” for “empowering,” TBQH.

    The “empowerment” through the incredibly limiting and obstructing customs reminds me of all the trouble Orthodox Jews go to the “rest” on the Sabbath.

  93. 93
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    There’s a section of Social Justice tumblrs that don’t take kindly to religious criticism it seems. Apparently pointing out that Islam is sexist amounts to racism, imperialism, cultural appropriation or whatever else they can throw at you. This is worrisome.

    So it’s the Feministe of social justice tumblrs. This is the one thing that makes me doubt Greta Christina’s position that atheism “demands” (as it were) social justice. While that might be true, its hard to fit into the social justice movement, which is so focused on sustaining and excusing religion for everything.

    I wonder if jackrawlinson is Elevator Guy…

    Dude. You read my mind. Of all the moronic, bigoted slimepit trolls, he’s the only one I’ve personally seen injected elevatorgate into every thread he posts on all over FTB. It’s like he’s still pissed, more than a year later, that she didn’t want to fuck him.

  94. 94
    Sassafras

    FWIW, I made a graphic in case anyone wants to use it on their tumblrs or twitters or whatever.

  95. 95
    moonglaive

    So far, people seems to be more upset with her supposed fat shaming and Islamophobia. The former is about her talking about losing weight — though she talked about numbers and how she did it (and granted, she could’ve framed it better), she did so entirely from a “this is what was right for me” perspective. The latter is just ridiculous, though she did apologize for making a generalized statement.

    Tumblr can be a lot of fun, but it allows for passive-aggressive (almost territorial: “This is my safe space!”) reactions, and is a pretty terrible platform from which to engage others in meaningful discussion. Here is a post linking to what she said and a bit of the commentary that followed.

  96. 96
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    I’m confused by jackrawlinson’s comment.

    It’s simple, he can’t bully us into agreeing with him about EG, so he accuses us of stifling him in true hypocritical fashion. The trouble he has is he wrongly thinks his OPINION is evidence instead of well refuted bullshit. He presents no evidence about EG, merely unevidenced OPINION, which *POOF* is dismissed as so much bullshit. His poo wittl feelin’s were hurt, since he was dismissed like he dismisses women’s testimony. His MRA ego can’t stand that, and refuses to learn something.

  97. 97
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Cipher, it’s indeed frustrating. I think defaulting to the second assumption is wise if you don’t know the person, but some people on Tumblr have, shall we say, a track record from other places.

    Ing, I didn’t grow up Orthodox, but I had much the same reaction to the Passover prohibition on leavened wheat (or other starches that swelled up, such as rice): “This is supposed to be a celebration?”

  98. 98
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I’m sure Laci DID fuck up – whatever the actual fuckup is

    Why?

  99. 99
    Ingdigo Jump

    Ing, I didn’t grow up Orthodox, but I had much the same reaction to the Passover prohibition on leavened wheat (or other starches that swelled up, such as rice): “This is supposed to be a celebration?”

    I was close to throttling some friends who refused to use an automobile for our wedding and thus arrived late to everything.

  100. 100
    RonSwanson

    I’d love to post your graphic on my tumblr Sassafras, but I’m not trans* so I suspect that wouldn’t be ok.

  101. 101
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    I feel a bit ill after looking at some of the so-called “social justice” Tumblrs. Apparently the daughter of an Iranian-American whose life has actually been affected by Islam is a racist if she speaks out against the religions that have had an impact on her.

    This sort of “social justice” leaves no place for any atheist. I’m not sure even the most accommodating accommodationalist would be left alone in that environment. To speak of one’s personal negative experiences with a religion is being held up as justifying death threats and stalking.

    Ugh.

  102. 102
    Sassafras

    I’ve noticed that in social justice groups, too. I used to frequent a site for social justice in video games that was pretty good, I’d thought. Then a commenter said that secular fiction writers were being hurtful to use fictional religions as metaphors for the negative aspects of real religions, and I called that out as trying to prevent a minority from speaking about their oppression. I was immediately dogpiled, told that there’s no such thing as a general religious privilege, and even an admin told me that religious privilege isn’t the same as other privileges and couldn’t be addressed that way.

  103. 103
    Sassafras

    RonSwanson – Well, yeah, it’s pretty specific, but on the bright side, Laci’s tumblr is full of great pics that could be used for a general “Go Laci!” post.

  104. 104
    Illuminata, Genie in the Beer Bottle

    I was immediately dogpiled, told that there’s no such thing as a general religious privilege, and even an admin told me that religious privilege isn’t the same as other privileges and couldn’t be addressed that way.

    huh. Apparently ALL of them are the Feministes of social justice groups.

  105. 105
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Illuminata,

    I thought I was just paranoid about Feministe, but then these things happened in comment section after comment section.

  106. 106
    davidbohm

    What is the feministe?

  107. 107
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    I hadn’t been familiar with Laci before this, but this is deeply fucking disturbing. I strongly suspect, as do others, that the people sending the treats care a lot more about some of the accusations than they do others, but that doesn’t really change anything except for guesses as to what brand of violent assholery they subscribe to.

    Then a commenter said that secular fiction writers were being hurtful to use fictional religions as metaphors for the negative aspects of real religions,

    I wonder, would they prefer it if the writers didn’t use fictional religions as metaphors, and just wrote in real-world religions to make their point instead?

  108. 108
    leomiert

    I hope it works out for Laci, she doesn’t deserve this (no one does).

  109. 109
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Illuminata, there are atheists in SJ outside of FTB and related blogs who speak up about religious privilege, but they are a distinct minority. Too often SJers are like this. (That Tumblr blogger posts some good content, but she really has a bug up her ass about non-accommodationist atheism.)

  110. 110
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    David Bohm: http://www.feministe.us/blog – feminist blog that leans heavily toward poststructuralism. Lots and lots of defensive theists.

  111. 111
    Cipher
    I’m sure Laci DID fuck up – whatever the actual fuckup is

    Why?

    Did you miss the part immediately after what you quoted with “because” in front of it? That seems like a good place to start looking for the reasoning.

  112. 112
    Sassafras

    Dalillama, Schmott Guy –

    I wonder, would they prefer it if the writers didn’t use fictional religions as metaphors, and just wrote in real-world religions to make their point instead?

    Well, it would be easier to make bogus persecution claims and spray the courtier’s reply everywhere if they used real religions, so yeah, that would probably be preferred!

  113. 113
    David Parnell

    Man this is fucking bullshit. Nobody should be threatened and terrorized into silence purely for their speech and/or ideas. This is shameful.

  114. 114
    Rutee Katreya

    Well, I know Iran has some.. unusual policies relating to transexuality and homosexuality. Like, they’ll arrest you if you are gay, but the government also provides SRS free of charge. Not knowing what Laci Green said, it is entirely conceivable to me that someone from Iran might level the charges of “transphobia” and “anti-Islamic” in the same breath.

    Is it really that weird compared to treating gay people equally, but barring attempts to change gender?

    I mean yes, they treat it as an attempt to cure homosexuality, but have you seen some of the shit trans people get int he west, from authorities they *MUST* visit?

    I’d point out, regarding social justice and atheism, that although religious privilege exists, comparing it to other privileges will kind of show why I have such an easy time blowing off the atheist part of my identity compared to most of the rest.

  115. 115
    Feminace, formerly Qurikythrope

    I’m so damned confused at the why of the hate (other than “pretty lady on the intertubes won’t fuck me and also BOOBS!).

    She corrected herself with the “tranny” comment from years ago, apologized, never did it again, and even recently did a basic video primer about “what is trans*?” that explains it for the cisgender crowd that probably makes up the majority of her SEX+ audience.

    She recently did a video talking about fat shaming and why it sucks.

    She experienced issues with Islam and Mormonism and was willing to talk about how harmful religion can be…and she’s wrong? Her experiences are wrong?

    And all of this adds up to scary motherfuckers being scary bullying motherfuckers. Did any of them check out her recent output? Where’s the fuckup worth threatening her over?

  116. 116
    megs226

    SJ blogs on tumblr are one of the reasons that I was able to identify/admit my own privilege, and that’s helped my life a lot.

    However, many I come across don’t seem to be very interested in having an intellectual, open discussion so much as venting. Fine, tumblr is certainly a place for that, but it’s also hard to open the floor for discussion when your posts are “fuck fuck fuck fuck you [insert privileged group they're ranting about here].”

    I personally don’t see ranty posts with no room for discussion as vehicles for the change we all hope and work for.

  117. 117
    lordyuppa

    I’m sure Laci DID fuck up – whatever the actual fuckup is

    Does it really matter? I think we’re all agreed that publicly threatening the life of someone is unacceptable here. Your comment implies that Laci deserves any of this, because she “fucked up.”

    I don’t care what she said, none of this is warranted.

    And looking back on what she did say…she said tranny four years ago and didn’t know it wasn’t PC. When confronted with how this could hurt others, she immediately did the adult thing and retracted her statements and issued an apology.

    Secondly, she spoke about how oppressive Islam is to women…a fucking fact.

    Laci Green is clearly the adult in the room. She’s an example of how to do it right. There is nothing wrong with saying something that’s not PC, what’s wrong is holding on to the term in question, and using it knowing it hurts people.

    She did everything right, and doesn’t deserve an ounce of blame for any of this.

  118. 118
    pentatomid

    Did any of them check out her recent output? Where’s the fuckup worth threatening her over?

    My guess is that they’re just using a little mistake by Laci (the ‘Trannie’ thing) to disguise the fact that they’re actually hating on her for… I don’t know… Being a woman on the internet with an outspoken opinion, I suppose. Some people are assholes. In this case very disturbing, very scary assholes.

  119. 119
    Gyeong Hwa

    Okay this Laci Green martyrdom is getting out of hand. First of all, no it’s not okay that Laci is getting death threats. It’s not okay that people are harassing. That said, people who are defending her are conveniently forgetting that she made a transphobic remark and that her apology, thus far, seems insincere to many people. Yes, she has said both transphobic and islamophobic things. Furthermore, Laci has blamed so-called “Social Justice” bloggers, and her supporters are harassing them and sending them threats yet no one bats an eye. I find ironic that women of color on tumblr- many of whom are being attacked by Laci’s supporters – get threats of violence all the time, and no one even fucking cares.

  120. 120
    Ze Madmax

    lordyuppa @117

    Does it really matter? I think we’re all agreed that publicly threatening the life of someone is unacceptable here. Your comment implies that Laci deserves any of this, because she “fucked up.”

    From Gen, Uppity Ingrate @ #35

    I seriously don’t even know what to say. I’m sure Laci DID fuck up – whatever the actual fuckup is – because hey, we all fucking fuck up sometimes, no matter how hard we try.

    But this? This shit is STILL NOT OKAY!

    (my emphasis)

    I really can’t see how this is in any way justifying the threats. Nobody here is blaming Laci Green. Acknowledging that people have flaws and make mistakes is hardly blaming the victim.

  121. 121
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Gyeong Hwa, I followed your link. I had to follow multiple other links to actually get to any content and found this and this.

    The only one of those with links takes me to…other people talking about Laci Green. I recognize that this is how Tumblr works, but that was really pointless. I just got a bunch of people repeating things.

    Ultimately, in this instance it does not matter what she’s done. She does not deserve to be attacked, stalked and threatened and anything trying to point blame at her is simply blaming the victim. She might be a raging racist, transphobic asshole for all I know, but no one deserves what she’s been subjected to.

    It’s not a matter of martyring her. It’s a matter of not blaming the victim. You want a rational discussion of her faults? Make sure no one is threatening and stalking her into hiding so that rational conversation can happen.

  122. 122
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    @Geong Hwa:
    Your link goes to someone linking to someone linking to something that may be whatever Laci allegedly did/said. I don’t know, because I hit my limit for endless link trails. If you’re going to link to something, and you want anyone to read it, try linking to your actual claim.

  123. 123
    Gyeong Hwa

    Caerie,

    Ultimately, in this instance it does not matter what she’s done. She does not deserve to be attacked, stalked and threatened and anything trying to point blame at her is simply blaming the victim. She might be a raging racist, transphobic asshole for all I know, but no one deserves what she’s been subjected to.

    Did I not just say that no one should be threaten or harassed?

    First of all, no it’s not okay that Laci is getting death threats. It’s not okay that people are harassing.

    Let me reitterate why I dislike this whole affair:

    1. Her apology for her transphobic remark seems insincere. And as far as I know, she hasn’t apologized for her islamophobic remark.
    2. The people who are defending Laci are now stalking, harassing and threatening so-called Social Justice bloggers. How is it acceptable for them to complain about what happened to Laci, when they call “Social Justice” bloggers things like n—-r?
    3. The same people have long since ignored all the hate women of color (and transwomen) on tumber has been getting threats for a long time since.

    That is why I side-eye people defending Laci. Again, I’m not saying what happened to Laci acceptable, but y’all (not you specifically) need to realize you are doing the same thing.

  124. 124
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Caerie,

    I got to this (Laci Green answer a question about Islam) from one of those links. It didn’t strike me as Islamophobic, a mere criticism of Islam. But then again, that wasn’t the original which apparently caused a shitstorm.

  125. 125
    ChasCPeterson

    “seemed insincere to many people”

    think. Think about that as a reason to do or say anything rational. ffs.

  126. 126
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Again, I’m not saying what happened to Laci acceptable, but y’all (not you specifically) need to realize you are doing the same thing.

    The same thing as threats of violence and publishing somebody’s home address? I think not.

  127. 127
    Gyeong Hwa

    Think about that as a reason to do or say anything rational. ffs.

    If you’re a trans* person and have been getting transphobia levied at you’re life, how would you feel if someone made a transphobic comment then issued a weak apology for it?

  128. 128
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Drolfe (and warnings for threadrupt)

    Why the use of the splat wild card for transpeople? I thought it was just idiosyncratic before, but I see it spreading.

    The splat wild card is NOT new. In fact, this is how “trans” came about. In the latest, latest 80s and the very early 90s, when people were first starting to build communities online using bbs’s and e-mail listserves, etc. trans communities started to become wildly larger – and more diverse. Although it took some time, it became clear that a lot of asshats were using transgender to mean both transgender and transsexual. A lot of transsexual folk who thought their genders were pretty unexceptional pushed back. There are a number of reasons for this, but some were very good critiques of appropriation and others were emotional reactions that badly misunderstood the other side’s point of view, as in the reaction to feeling like the “problem” was located in one’s body only to have transgender folk assert that the problem wasn’t located in the body…which transsexual folk took to mean going back to the old way of thinking that this is something sick in the minds of transsexual folk. Not that there was no evidence for this (“When we live in a free society, no one will have sexual reassignment surgery” type statements were strong evidence for this) but those statements weren’t actually the basis of the argument for assigning transsexual as a subcategory to transgender rather than a category of separate and coequal taxonomic level and significance.

    Anyway, respectful transgender people and transsexual people alike wanted to organize around the common ground that does exist (which is plenty). So they/we needed a word that we could agree *did* represent everyone.

    And thus enters geekdom. Since this rapid community building was taking place in substantial part online through the new tools that made it much easier – and, not incidentally, much less risky – to find like minded folk, and since online communities were still much more limited to STEM type folks at the time, and seriously disproportionately representative of programming communities, some folk (who know who at this point) took a lesson from GREP and simply used

    trans*

    as a regular expression that, while technically inclusive of “transliteration” was meant in context to indicate flexibility as to whether one was speaking about someone or some group as transsexual, transgender, or both.

    This was incredibly useful both when speaking of an individual of unknown identification or of speaking of groups that, by there nature, were likely to have (or confirmed to have, or simply desirous of having in the future with more networking) members who ID as transsexual and members who ID as transgender.

    SO…

    “trans*” is the original form.

    I came into the picture just after this. 93 I guess? I was a baby programmer and general nerd. I was looking up trans stuff online and found people using these terms. By then some people – mostly the non-programmers – were already dropping the asterisk. However, since I was familiar with GREP, I instantly knew what was meant. I used it with the asterisk on and off ever since.

    But it’s true that I’ve used it much less with the splat wild card in the Noughties. In fact, for a long time my default has been to use it without the wild card.

    Why? Because it was a big ass fight to get the larger number of transgender folk to recognize the right to self define of the smaller number of transsexual folk. So for people to whom I was using it, it was mostly very, very clear that it was being used as a universal stand in for “transsexual and transgender”. In fact, I was one of the earliest advocates for taking this term off-line and using it in everyday speech.

    The problem? Transsexual marginalizing perspectives that are prevalent in (but not ubiquitous to) transgender advocacy are much more common than anything that could be called “transsexual centered”. As trans advocacy has moved out of the left wing of queer communities into, well, the center of queer communities and even into gay and lesbian communities …where it finally has bumped into people with actual money and thus become peripherally discussed in such common fora as businesses’ non-discrimination policies, etc., the word “trans” has been introduced to many, many people who have no idea that there is such a thing as differential trans interests in the “GID inclusion in the DSM” debate. (As one example.)

    For too many people,

    trans = short for transgender.

    However, if that is true, then transsexual is being linguistically* and taxonomically subordinated to transgender again, using the very term that was designed to subvert – hell, openly resist! – that process.

    We need people exposed to the word to know that

    Trans != short for transgender.

    Trans = short for “transsexual or transgender or both”.

    Therefore, some people have begun using “trans*” agin to make it explicit that they aren’t using trans as short for one thing (or another). They are using trans with a wild card to say that what comes after “trans…” is ambiguous.

    it is the wild card==ambiguity relation that makes this possible to do in a clear, brief symbolic shorthand that would otherwise take, well, this entire comment to explain.

    Now, I’m not saying that every person using it is aware of this history. But people using it are relying on programming conventions of ambiguity to acknowledge and communicate ambiguity. And people like me** who either were there near the beginning or have heard what happened and believe in the efforts of the time are the ones that have been advocating returning the wild card to its place in order to resist (assumptions about) trans* hierarchies (of power, of priorities, of visibility).

    I hope that helps all the people interested in the use of the trans* formulation – and I hope that there’s more than one person that reads this that finds it helpful. If I’m just hoggling, LMK.

    *I tpyo’d so badly that it was closer to “linguinially”…which made me hungry. Oh, and hail, Tpyos.

    **but not me specifically, I haven’t really bothered before. Though I suppose this comment could count as a beginning of public advocacy of the trans* formulation, I tried to be neutral and simply factually explain what happened. I think that’s useful as an introduction, but I do have an opinion on the topic. In general, I think the only harm of using the wild card is confusion (especially on the part of clueless editors who want to remove it). While confusion can blunt a short-term political or other effort (and thus the wild card might be sacrificed in certain specific contexts), in the long term, most people who don’t know what it means will see it as a linguistic oddity of the document in question and go on without thinking – thus not diluting short term efforts – while making it more ubiquitous. This is beneficial for those people who do experience confusion and questioning, use that as a spur to goad them to find out more, and then suddenly discover that people were always making the distinction between sex and gender, transsexual and transgender, even if that person was not always personally making the distinction.

    So, yeah, I think that the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks in all but very limited situations. And yet still I don’t normally do it, simply because I slowly got (mostly) out of the habit. And because in 1996 I fell in love with a non-programmer who was annoyed with it and got me to gradually reduce my use in the later Nineties. Sue me. We all sacrifice a lot for love and sex.

  129. 129
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Gyeong Hwa

    Let me reitterate why I dislike this whole affair:

    1. Her apology for her transphobic remark seems insincere. And as far as I know, she hasn’t apologized for her islamophobic remark.

    I found her apology sincere enough, but I also tend to give people a lot of leeway when it comes to mistakes. I’ve known a number of trans* people who unknowingly used offensive language early on, too. If someone is willing to apologize and admit their mistake and learn from it, I think that’s good enough.

    As for her islamophobic remark, is it different than the one I’ve seen tossed around regarding how sexist and damaging the religion is? Because while you’ll find plenty of people here fighting against racism and the racist vitriol inherent in so much anti-Islam rhetoric, you’re in the wrong place if you want people defending religion itself.

    2. The people who are defending Laci are now stalking, harassing and threatening so-called Social Justice bloggers. How is it acceptable for them to complain about what happened to Laci, when they call “Social Justice” bloggers things like n—-r?

    If people are doing that–regardless of what prompted them–then they are vile assholes and I hope they’re arrested so they can’t continue their harassment. Since we’re here responding to a blog post about the threats against Laci Green and not responding to a blog post about threats against other people, we’re discussing the threats against Laci Green.

    3. The same people have long since ignored all the hate women of color (and transwomen) on tumber has been getting threats for a long time since.

    That’s unfortunate. Tumblr isn’t my thing, so I’m largely unaware of what goes on there.

    That is why I side-eye people defending Laci. Again, I’m not saying what happened to Laci acceptable, but y’all (not you specifically) need to realize you are doing the same thing.

    If you don’t mean us specifically, please don’t word your sentence exactly like you’re accusing us specifically, then. This is one of the least tolerant blog networks for violent rhetoric.

  130. 130
    lordyuppa

    @Gyeong Hwa

    Okay this Laci Green martyrdom is getting out of hand. First of all, no it’s not okay that Laci is getting death threats. It’s not okay that people are harassing. That said…

    STOP RIGHT THERE. It doesn’t matter what she said…period. No opinion, voiced or not, warrants threats against your personal safety.

    It doesn’t matter that she made “a transphobic remark”. It doesn’t matter that “her apology, thus far, seems insincere to many people.” None of it gives license for anyone to threaten her person.

    @Ze Madmax
    I think you are dead wrong on this one. By drawing attention to what she said, no matter what it was, detracts from the wrongness of the response. It implies that she is somehow culpable or responsible for the actions against her…she’s not. If she had said “I like ice cream” and received death threats we would uniformly blame the one making the threats, no one would think to blame her. However, if she says “I don’t like Islam” you imply that it’s a mistake on her part to have said opinion and to voice said opinion. Her saying she’s not a fan of Islam should warrant, with respect to her personal safety, the exact same response as saying she does like ice cream.

  131. 131
    Pteryxx

    I hope that helps all the people interested in the use of the trans* formulation – and I hope that there’s more than one person that reads this that finds it helpful. If I’m just hoggling, LMK.

    Crip Dyke, thanks for that interesting and informative background! (When I saved the comment, Notepad wouldn’t allow ‘trans*’ in the filename… how ironic. *snicker*)

  132. 132
    Kagehi

    The “empowerment” through the incredibly limiting and obstructing customs reminds me of all the trouble Orthodox Jews go to the “rest” on the Sabbath.

    I kind of see it as being like winning a Templeton prize and not understanding why that is, in reality, a bad thing. You don’t improve science, by distorting it with religion, and more than you empower anyone else, by perpetuating something being used to disempower them, even if somehow it helps you. The very idea that this is actually a “good idea” for someone is.. incomprehensible to me. Its not, after all, like your doing it to “empower” yourself, in the same way that some woman might dress up on halloween as a veil dancer from ancient Arabia. This is actively choosing to wear something that is both a method of oppression **and** a symbol to those that will only see you wearing it as “agreement” with them, not as opposition (or, they would have to be total bloody idiots to not at least claim it is so, just like Christians do every time someone drops a religious phrase in a sentence, and it can be intentionally misinterpreted as supporting faith.

  133. 133
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Did you miss the part immediately after what you quoted with “because” in front of it? That seems like a good place to start looking for the reasoning.

    I didn’t miss it, but I read the comment as implying that the people threatening her probably had a legitimate complaint but were overreacting to it. I see no reason why that concession should be made, even with the observation that people do occasionally make mistakes.

  134. 134
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Crip Dyke,

    I’m using * on and off, with an intent of being inclusive, but not really knowing for sure what all the groups I’m trying to be inclusive of are. Thank you so much for giving such a detailed explanation. It’s bookmarked.

  135. 135
    Gyeong Hwa

    It doesn’t matter that she made “a transphobic remark”. It doesn’t matter that “her apology, thus far, seems insincere to many people.” None of it gives license for anyone to threaten her person.

    YOU STOP RIGHT THERE. The fact you ignore the rest of what I post is just so precious. Answer me this: Why is it not okay for people to harass Laci, but totally okay for Laci’s defender to harass and threaten women of color and trans* women?

  136. 136
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    her apology, thus far, seems insincere to many people.

    That doesn’t surprise me. Some people won’t be satisfied with any apology, ever.

  137. 137
    Cipher

    Why is it not okay for people to harass Laci, but totally okay for Laci’s defender to harass and threaten women of color and trans* women?

    It’s not okay for anyone to harass and threaten women of color or trans women or anyone else.

  138. 138
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Gyeong Hwa, I implore you to search FtB for an instance of any regular poster, anywhere here, who has not been banned, publicly kicked off the network, or is a reviled troll who has said it’s all right to harass anyone.

    We are pretty much the ultimate in anti-harassment here. The fact that we responded to harassment against Laci Green doesn’t mean we accept or support harassment against anyone else, FFS. Anti-harassment is not a zero-sum game.

  139. 139
    Khantron, the alien that only loves

    As anyone here ever said that it’s okay to harass social justice tumblrers, Gyeong Hwa.

  140. 140
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden
    her apology, thus far, seems insincere to many people.

    That doesn’t surprise me. Some people won’t be satisfied with any apology, ever.

    Yeah. There are a lot of people on the internet and many possible reactions. If you have enough readers, it is guaranteed that any apology issued will sound insincere to many folks. Obama has apologized at different times for different things. I’m sure that his apologies sounded sincere to many and insincere to many. Still, whether he was sincere is a factual question and while theoretically he could be categorized as being sincere or not in some definitive way, even if someone were to go through a lengthy process and try to explain the psychology of Obama, the moment, the nation, the media, and the world, still you’d have about the same numbers saying it was insincere and saying it was sincere.

    This fact of statistics and psychology in no way justifies threats of violence. Period.

  141. 141
    Khantron, the alien that only loves

    *Has

    The answer is no, of course. This is one of the worst communities to bring this accusation up in. We are well aware that women are harassed regularly on the internet and no doubt some shithead, probably male, Laci Green posters are harassing tumblrers associated with her.

  142. 142
    dysomniak "They are unanimous in their hate for me, and I welcome their hatred!"

    . Answer me this: Why is it not okay for people to harass Laci, but totally okay for Laci’s defender to harass and threaten women of color and trans* women?

    It’s not. No one here said it is. Next idiot please.

  143. 143
    Gyeong Hwa

    Okay, I’m clearly doing something wrong here because I’ve been trying to post trans women response to this but they don’t appear. So you’re going to have to look this up yourself. There is a tumblr user named Ladyatheist. She has had here apartment address sent to people because she’s a women of color. She’s been called n—-r for criticizing the lack of safe space for women of color in mainstream feminism. And Laci Green’s supporters are totally okay with that. My criticism of the whole affair is that many people who support Laci Greens are horrible stalkers themselves, but no one cares because they stalk women of color and transwomen (labeled Social Justice Bloggers).

  144. 144
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @caerie #138

    Gyeong Hwa, I implore you to search FtB for an instance of any regular poster, anywhere here, who has not been banned, publicly kicked off the network, or is a reviled troll who has said it’s all right to harass anyone.

    We are pretty much the ultimate in anti-harassment here. The fact that we responded to harassment against Laci Green doesn’t mean we accept or support harassment against anyone else, FFS. Anti-harassment is not a zero-sum game.

    But, but Caerie –

    I’ve not heard you make a public statement opposed to the harassment of *me*. Until you do, why should I assume you aren’t pro-Me-harassment????

  145. 145
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Did I not just say that no one should be threaten or harassed?

    As part of a “yes, but…

  146. 146
    Khantron, the alien that only loves

    Well, Laci Green’s supporters here totally aren’t okay with that. That’s what you’re doing wrong with that.

  147. 147
    nonny

    I’ve never heard of Laci before but I agree no-one deserves to be stalked and threatened just for putting their opinions online. If they didn’t like what she was saying they could just have not read her tumblr or watched her videos. It’s sad that she’s been intimidated so much that she no longer feels able to carry on.

  148. 148
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Gyeong Hwa,

    It is frustrating that when trans* people and poc get harassed it’s often ignored. That it takes a white woman getting threats to make people care. She is pretty popular, so I guess that’s one of the reasons for the worry from all sides, but I guess that could partly be also because a white cis person has more chance of becoming popular than marginalized groups. I get that this is all frustrating, but you sounded like you were accusing us here of defending her while ignoring or outright supporting harassment of trans* folks and poc. And that’s just not happening. It’s not good that stories of their harassment don’t even reach us. That’s not fair and it’s terrible and it’s part of the oppression, but we are not supporting their harassers.

  149. 149
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Gyeong Hwa

    And people are trying to tell you that we’re opposed to harassment generally.

    yes, racism plays a role in who has the widest readerships and thus whose harassment comes to the attention of Pharyngula (and any other blog). But lack of awareness of a problem is not in and of itself an endorsement of the actions causing the problem.

    People are taking the time to speak out about the problems that come to their attention. One of the things about which we, on Pharyngula, speak out against is racism. But simply because we care about ending racism does not in and of itself make racism non-existent in the dynamics that bring attention to some person or event or another person or event. It doesn’t work like that.

    When you have folk on FtB saying that, sure harassment might happen, but I don’t care because I want the freedom to act without consequence or even fear of consequence…

    …and then when those people *aren’t* criticized mercilessly for writing fallacious and revolting crap…

    …and then when those people *aren’t* kicked off FtB’s line up …

    …and then when lots of commenters make it clear that this is the default thinking among commenters…

    …then you might have a case that it’s a terrible, terrible thing that people here publicly oppose certain death threats but have not yet taken a specific position on other death threats. Because you’d have an argument that maybe they haven’t done that because of the “freedom to harass without consequence” space that FtB has carved out.

    But, for some reason, it seems like that isn’t what’s happened on FtB. Why oh why does it seem like FtB opposes a general freedom to harass and threaten and abuse without consequence? I wish I could think of a concrete example that proves this blog network rejects that carve out as unprincipled and harmful, but I’m drawing a blank.

  150. 150
    ChasCPeterson

    If you’re a trans* person and have been getting transphobia levied at you’re life, how would you feel if someone made a transphobic comment then issued a weak apology for it?

    I don’t know.

    I do know: you just moved the goal post from “seemed insincere to many people” to “weak”. That’s even more subjective a judgement call.

  151. 151
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    And Laci Green’s supporters are totally okay with that.

    Citation fucking needed.

  152. 152
    lordyuppa

    @Gyeong Hwa
    WTF Dude! How are you conflating harassment with personal threats?

    Let’s be clear on our terms here. “I am going to come to your house and kill you” is not harassment. It’s something all together different.

    As for the rest of your points, they seemed to flow from a flawed premise, so yeah I did ignore them, but if it makes you happy I’ll address them.

    1. You didn’t like her apology or find it sufficient.
    [Who cares?]

    2. Laci’s defenders are doing/saying bad things to “social justice tumblr/minorities/women.”
    [I agree with you that this is inappropriate. I wish they'd stop it. However, there is no equivalency between what people are saying to tumblr social justice and the very personal threat Laci got threatening her home and personal safety. Apples and oranges buddy.]

    3. People use hate speech on tumblr.
    [I don't have a problem with it because I don't use tumblr. I have no first hand knowledge of this, however I totally agree with you that it should stop. This also has nothing to do with Laci.]

    Lastly you say you look at us askance because “we’re doing the same thing.” We’re not. Ignoring the difference in scale between criticizing tumblr social justice and making personal death threats to someone is a dick move. A lot of what you are saying about hate speech is valid, but it’s an entirely different thing from what Laci has had to go through, and without acknowledging that, everything you write makes you sound like a part of the problem instead of the solution.

  153. 153
    strange gods before me ॐ

    McCaffrey also witters in the comments about how “”many Muslim women who have reclaimed Islam’s sexist traditions and made veiling and other customs that many people regard as ‘oppressive’ into empowering actions.”” I’d substitute “empowerful” for “empowering,” TBQH.

    The “empowerment” through the incredibly limiting and obstructing customs reminds me of all the trouble Orthodox Jews go to the “rest” on the Sabbath.

    Maybe, but not everybody has the energy or resources to push back against patriarchy with every one of their actions.

    Veiling, or wearing the headscarf, is sometimes practiced as a means of pushing back against racism and Islamophobia. Women who do it for these reasons, many despite the contrary wishes of the men in their lives, apparently find that it simultaneously offends the sensibilities of the dominant culture and brings them into contact with other women who are oppressed by racism and Islamophobia.

    Its not, after all, like your doing it to “empower” yourself, in the same way that some woman might dress up on halloween as a veil dancer from ancient Arabia.

    That’s “empowerful” too, not empowering.

  154. 154
    chiptuneist

    Okay, I’m clearly doing something wrong here because I’ve been trying to post trans women response to this but they don’t appear.

    That’s probably the spam filter, as I understand it your comments will get caught in moderation if they contain too many links.

    There is a tumblr user named Ladyatheist. She has had here apartment address sent to people because she’s a women of color. She’s been called n—-r for criticizing the lack of safe space for women of color in mainstream feminism.

    I’ve actually seen her blog and I’ve seen what you’re talking about.

    And Laci Green’s supporters are totally okay with that.

    Some of them might be. I can say with reasonable certainty that that’s not the case for anyone HERE. Also, Laci is not responsible for the behavior of her readers. If they are doing this, they are wrong, and they should be called out. But that doesn’t reflect upon Laci at all. I don’t see the relevance, and I agree with those who say that discussions of what she may or may not have said are not helpful at present.

    Just for a moment, I want to look at something you said earlier:

    That said, people who are defending her are conveniently forgetting that she made a transphobic remark and that her apology, thus far, seems insincere to many people.

    Nobody here is ‘conveniently forgetting’ any of those things. In most cases, people haven’t KNOWN any of those things. Furthermore, some people have said that they think discussing those things in relation to the threats she is receiving isn’t appropriate, which I tend to agree with. So I guess I’m just wondering why you are bringing this up HERE, unless you are trying to imply that we shouldn’t be offering Laci support (and you’d be wrong), or that she deserves on some level the threats she’s received (in which case you’d be SUPERWRONG). I suppose you could also be making a case that more attention should be payed to the threats received by other more marginalized and less privileged bloggers, and I would agree with you, but I don’t see any need to minimize the wrong being done to Laci, or to attribute those threats to Laci’s followers, in order to make that case.

  155. 155
    pentatomid

    Gyeong Hwa,

    We are not okay with that. The Laci Green supporters here are not okay with that. Furthermore most of us (and probably most Laci Green supporters in general) weren’t even aware of this, so what exactly are you trying to say? Should we stop defending Laci just because some other Laci Green defenders happen to be assholes?

    That is why I side-eye people defending Laci. Again, I’m not saying what happened to Laci acceptable, but y’all (not you specifically) need to realize you are doing the same thing.

    ‘Y’all’? Nope sorry, WE are not doing anything of the sort.

  156. 156
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Gyeong Hwa:

    There is a tumblr user named Ladyatheist. She has had here apartment address sent to people because she’s a women of color. She’s been called n—-r for criticizing the lack of safe space for women of color in mainstream feminism. And Laci Green’s supporters are totally okay with that. My criticism of the whole affair is that many people who support Laci Greens are horrible stalkers themselves, but no one cares because they stalk women of color and transwomen (labeled Social Justice Bloggers)

    That’s all really terrible. Of course it’s not okay, especially because it’s a traditional silencing tactic in the oppression of people of color.

    I think Beatrice and Crip Dyke are right on the money as to why Laci Green’s story came to our attention first and why attacks on women of color and trans women don’t get the same attention. That doesn’t mean those attacks are okay. No one here would say that. As has been said many times, we’re firmly anti-harassment. We’re regularly attacked because of our oh-so-controversial anti-harassment stance, in fact.

    So if you’re here to change minds, you’re not going to accomplish much. We were discussing Laci Green because she’s the one who was brought to our attention, but we oppose any and all harassment, threats or stalking. Since we already agree with you, I suggest we all get together and rant and scream about how violent assholes suck. Much more satisfying than singing Kumbaya.

  157. 157
    gworroll

    What the fuck.

    Criticizing Islam as sexist, making an apologized for mistake with trans* terminology, justifies threats of violence?

    I hope she can get this sorted out and safely return. Don’t like her, fine, think her writing and videos are horrible, fine. Fight a war of ideas, not a war of violence.

    And some of her critics need to learn to read thoroughly before making an ass out of themselves in their response. I’m not saying she’s perfect, but damn, some of her critics really aren’t paying any attention to the ideas they are trying to criticize.

  158. 158
    Khantron, the alien that only loves

    @lordyuppa

    The start of that comment was out of line. Gyeong Hwa said earlier the social justice tumblrs did receive threats as well as well as harassment. I would say that threats do fall under the umbrella of harassment as well especially since the threat Laci Green received was likely made to intimidate her away from the internet.

  159. 159
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    I’ve gone to Ladyatheist’s tumblr. I’m sorry that she has received threats. I hope that she is safe.

    I’m sorry that she is being discriminated against and that threats against her are being ignored or even framed as her own fault.

    I’m sorry that I haven’t heard about it before. I don’t hang out on tumblr and generally have no idea about what goes on there unless it leaks into some of the blogs I read. I realize that at least one of the reasons (if not the sole one) why Ladyatheist’s story hasn’t reach me is that she is a woman of color.

    None of that excuses the threats against Laci Green. None of that makes me any less outraged about the threats against her. It does make me angry about the threats against Ladyatheist and angry that she gets neglected because she isn’t white. But most people here would agree with that and support Ladyatheist.

  160. 160
    Khantron, the alien that only loves

    None of this changes that Gyeong Hwa’s is derailing. Though it is refreshing that this derail isn’t “what about the menz,” since “what about the trans* women and women of color” is a legitimate concern. Maybe bring it up in the endless thread? I’m somewhat sure the horde will be more than sympathetic there.

  161. 161
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    I suppose you could also be making a case that more attention should be payed to the threats received by other more marginalized and less privileged bloggers

    Dear Translima?

  162. 162
    lordyuppa

    @Khantron
    That sounds like of a difference of opinion then. I read what Gyeong said as trying to equate personal death threats with criticism/harassment of the social justice tumblr group.

    He said that Ladyatheist had her address shared, and that she had been called racial slurs. While reprehensible in it’s own right, I don’t consider that to be the equivalent of sending someone a picture of their house and saying effectively, I know where you live and I’m coming to kill you.

    It could be a semantic difference too. The way he was using harassment seemed a little too all encompassing. What’s happening to the tumblr folk (to my knowledge) is not equivalent to what happened to Laci, and it seemed to me like he was trying to make the point that they were equal forms of “harassment.”

    All of which is fairly moot to begin with because his assertions that we are all fine with the harassment suffered by tumblr people turned out to be dead wrong anyway.

  163. 163
    Improbable Joe, bearer of the Official SpokesGuitar

    @Gyeong Hwa:

    I don’t know what’s going on across the rest of the Internet, but here in this place people generally don’t even approve of harassment and/or threats, even hypothetical threats, made towards people who are actually evil criminals hurting people, let alone towards people we don’t know or know about. You can check recent blog entries on FtB for people standing up for people of color and trans people who have been assaulted, killed, or threatened with violence and/or criminal sanctions for who they are or what they believe.

  164. 164
    RonSwanson

    As others have noted, tumblr is not a great platform for dialogue. Very messy. Great for posting pictures though.

    Having said that, I’ve waded through some of what’s been said regarding Laci and I’m very surprised at the number of progressives and even atheists (including ladyatheist, who was mentioned up above) that consider her an islamophobe. It’s likely my privilege talking but I just don’t see how Laci’s islamophobic.

    Also troubling are the relentless ad-hominem attacks. There really are tumblr bloggers who believe you can’t criticize Islam if you aren’t yourself muslim or a PoC. You can’t talk about the misogyny in Islam if you’re not a woman. I’m very happy to acknowledge privilege (especially my own) but that’s… I don’t even know what to call it.

  165. 165
    RonSwanson

    Ugh, why won’t this accept links? Trying to show some examples of what I was talking above but no dice.

  166. 166
  167. 167
    chiptuneist

    Erülóra Maikalambe

    Dear Translima?

    I’m not sure how fair that is. I think what Gyeong Hwa is saying is sufficiently different from what Dawkins said that I’m not really willing to go that far, although I definitely see the parallel.

  168. 168
    RonSwanson

    Aha! It’s the “f*ck” in one of the links. Let me try this. Here’s another example:

    F*ck Laci Green

  169. 169
    Gyeong Hwa

    Dear Translima?

    How is anything that I’ve said in anyway shape or form the same as what that dolt Dawkins said? I said not all of the people who support Laci are good; many are stalkers and harassers themselves. I also said harassment against women of color and transwomen are ignored (even by the same people who defended Laci Green). That is not the same as saying that you’re problem are illegitimate because someone else has it worse.

    Aha! It’s the “f*ck” in one of the links. Let me try this. Here’s another example:

    F*ck Laci Green.

    How is that not a legitimate concern? It is true that the problems women of color face on tumblr is very much ignored by white people. That their harassment goes unnoticed. It seems to me that your only problem with that post is it’s tone. FUCK THAT SHIT. Do you know how hard it is to be person of color on tumblr and not worry that someone is going derail or override your concerns as invalid? Or am I just being another mean queer person of color. . . -_-

    Intersectionality, folks, learn it.

    Beatrice, Crip, and Caerie, I just get the impression sometimes people on FtB don’t acknowledge that harassment and threats are levied against PoC or are complacent to them.

  170. 170
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Gyeong Hwa, I’m ambivalent about your comments. I agree with Azkyroth that that the “Yes, but…” tone is at odds with your disclaimer that Green should not be harassed. I also disagree with your generalization that all of her supporters are OK with the harassment of her critics. As Chiptuneist says, those of us unfamiliar with her Tumblr didn’t even know that was going on.

    That said… while perhaps it should have been done on another thread, such as TET, so as to avoid a derail, I think it’s legitimate to mention that Green is not the only woman in this situation being threatened. She is not responsible for every action her supporters take, but I would hope she has denounced those threats. And it’s definitely a problem that threats and violence against women of color (not just on Tumblr, either) aren’t taken as seriously as the same against white women.

    Drilling down to the OPs in question…

    “Islamophobia.” Green’s wording is problematic here (“PC”; a fauxpology), but she’s going by her own experiences as someone whose life was negatively affected by Islam. “Culture and not religion” is IMHFO a cop-out. Mainline liberal Protestantism is culturally distinct from fundie xtianity, but we don’t give it a pass, either.

    Fat shaming. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with her changing her habits and blogging about it, but if she’s going to be “body positive,” she’ll want to word her weight-loss posts more carefully. She almost certainly has eating-disordered people who follow her, and anything that can be interpreted as “thinspiration” (it doesn’t have to involve anorexia) can send them into a tailspin.

    Consent.

    she made a video in response to people getting pressured into having anal sex by giving them tips on how to have anal sex, rather than saying “hey, you don’t have to insert anything into your ass that you don’t want there”

    like wtf are you doing, that’s not sex positivity, that’s rape culture

    No excuse for that. None at all.

    Lordyuppa:

    However, there is no equivalency between what people are saying to tumblr social justice [bloggers]…

    The thing is, we don’t know, because we don’t have specific information on the threats made to the latter.

    Ixchel:

    Veiling, or wearing the headscarf, is sometimes practiced as a means of pushing back against racism and Islamophobia. Women who do it for these reasons, many despite the contrary wishes of the men in their lives, apparently find that it simultaneously offends the sensibilities of the dominant culture and brings them into contact with other women who are oppressed by racism and Islamophobia.

    True, and sometimes they experience it as a relief from having to conform to Western beauty regimens. (Of course, there’s a middle ground…)

  171. 171
    nms

    I just found a tumblr back-and-forth in which a feminist blogger got a little angry at someone who requested to see video footage of her rape, and was then attacked by others for “kink shaming”, “policing women’s sexuality”, and, inexplicably, “white privilege”.

    This tumblr place, I dunno.

  172. 172
    RonSwanson

    Gyeong Hwa

    How is that not a legitimate concern?

    It IS! Sorry, I should have just quoted this part of the post:

    ladyatheist:

    Each and every criticism of Laci Green was valid. Her videos were fucked up and her “apologies” were nothing but bullshit.

    Gyeong Hwa

    It seems to me that your only problem with that post is it’s tone.

    Nope, I’m fine with her tone. I don’t agree that Laci’s apologies were bullshit or that she’s transphobic or islamophobic.

    Gyeong Hwa

    Intersectionality, folks, learn it.

    I know what it is, thanks though.

    Gyeong Hwa

    I just get the impression sometimes people on FtB don’t acknowledge that harassment and threats are levied against PoC or are complacent to them.

    It’s the wrong impression.

  173. 173
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    NMS: Yeah, there are any number of sexual predators and their enablers who fling around the term “kink-shaming” rather freely. This Tumblr keeps track of a lot of them. Trigger warnings, obviously, for consent issues.

  174. 174
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    Gyeong Hwa:

    Beatrice, Crip, and Caerie, I just get the impression sometimes people on FtB don’t acknowledge that harassment and threats are levied against PoC or are complacent to them.

    Could you point me to what’s given you that impression? People of color who are bloggers here are a minority, but there have been a lot of good discussion about the issues you’re talking about and how they fail to get much coverage from the dominant Internet culture. Black Skeptics and The Crommunist Manifesto have both had posts about that topic fairly recently.

    When PZ has discussed the harassment of specific people, it’s largely only been people he knows or people who have risen to some sort of public prominence. I don’t think he’s purposefully turning a blind eye to the harassment of people of color. I think he’s a busy man who primarily blogs about religion and science and, thus, only has so much time to find stories outside that scope to write about. As a result, those stories are going to be what the dominant culture is willing to draw attention to in the first place.

    If there are actually people at FtB–who have not been banned, publicly thrown from the network for their behavior, and are not obvious trolls–who are condoning harassment and threats against people of color, I think all of us would be very interested in knowing who they are.

  175. 175
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    I missed this before, but:

    she made a video in response to people getting pressured into having anal sex by giving them tips on how to have anal sex, rather than saying “hey, you don’t have to insert anything into your ass that you don’t want there”

    like wtf are you doing, that’s not sex positivity, that’s rape culture

    Yeah, that’s fucked up. Except this is the only video I can find from her on anal sex. And this is exactly what she says on being pressured:

    Another thing that people do wrong that causes a lot of pain is not wanting it. I get an alarming amount of email from people being pressured to have anal sex. That worries me. Anal sex can be fun and pleasurable and awesome, but people should not be pressured to have anal sex. If you’re not into something sexually, you don’t want to do it, shit, don’t do it. Your body, your rules.

    This is why pointing to what she said rather than pointing to what people have said about her on Tumblr is valuable. Primary sources, people.

  176. 176
    Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Caerie: +1

    I don’t think that it’s ridiculous to note how threats against WoC are treated differently. On the contrary, I think it’s vital. But even in the OP PZ was saying that “nothing” justifies these threats. He took the opportunity to condemn threats in general.

    While there are reasons why PoC shouldn’t trust random white folk (nor random, faceless internet folk) to be anti-racist absent specific information, there is a lot of specific information here.

    A discussion of the serious issues raised is important, and one in which I engage, but it is not trivialized or ignored merely by the existence of discussing other issues.

  177. 177
    Erülóra Maikalambe

    I said not all of the people who support Laci are good

    You implied none of them are good. Do I need to quote your words back to you?

    I also said harassment against women of color and transwomen are ignored (even by the same people who defended Laci Green). That is not the same as saying that you’re problem are illegitimate because someone else has it worse.

    It was an exaggeration, sure. But I think it’s a difference of degree, not kind. Your point came across to be that we should stop talking about a white woman getting death threats because some of her fans called a black woman a nigger. I feel like I know you well enough to think this was not intentional, but it doesn’t change the fact that what you are doing is derailing, and you are impeaching Laci’s supporters here for the actions of supporters elsewhere in a place most of us have probably never visited.

    The sad thing is, your concern is a valid one, and if you had brought it up in a way which wouldn’t have been construed as an attack on regulars here, or an attempt to derail, everybody would have just agreed with you.

    Beatrice, Crip, and Caerie, I just get the impression sometimes people on FtB don’t acknowledge that harassment and threats are levied against PoC or are complacent to them.

    Kinda hard to do when it’s taking place on a website (tumblr) that I’ve never been to.

  178. 178
    RonSwanson

    This is why pointing to what she said rather than pointing to what people have said about her on Tumblr is valuable. Primary sources, people.

    ^^^
    THIS

    Slightly OTP, Tumblr as a platform makes finding primary sources difficult sometimes. Sure, there’s the source link, but often times important remarks get buried in the middle of posts reblogged and reblogged and reblogged ad infinitum.

  179. 179
    DLC

    To be blunt about it:
    I don’t follow anything on tumblr. Anything. don’t fucking care.
    I don’t even know who in bloody hell Laci Green is.
    But, having said all that, I have to say that it does not matter if I like her or hate her, harassment of the kind she’s getting is not okay. It is also not okay to do that sort of thing to other people. It does not matter if they are of some minority or if they are Mitt Romney*. Is there a line beyond which someone can go where this kind of harassment becomes okay ? I don’t see any.

    (*Who is in my opinion the picture you should see when looking up “White Privilege” in the dictionary)

  180. 180
    michaelpowers

    Years ago, I was a “guest of the state”. It was when private prisons first became popular (we referred to the one I was at as “camp snoopy”, if that tells you anything).

    When I was released, I was apprehensive about how I might be welcomed back into society, if at all. So, I decided to post the details of my crime and punishment on a number of internet forums, and then asked those reading if they thought I had paid my debt to society. The responses I got were overwhelmingly negative. I expected that. I had, after all, committed a crime. What I didn’t expect was the venom and malice of the comments, up to, and including, painfully detailed death threats.

    For months afterward I was depressed. Not only at the thought of being a pariah, but my faith in humanity was shaken. I realized that a significant percentage of people would gleefully take someone else’s life for even a relatively mild trespass (In my case, I did 2 1/2 years for $40.00 worth of grass). These were people who’s only claim to good citizenship was the ability to follow simple rules, not out of any sense of morality, or discrimination between right and wrong, but only the fear of being caught and punished.

    When I was in prison, the guards would often do something hateful and petty, and you could always tell the new guys, because they would always ask “why?”. We knew better. The guards’ answer was always the same.

    “Because we can.”

    This answer was so consistent, that I suspect it was actually a part of their training. It was, however, an honest answer. Because when you strip away all the self-righteous justifications, most people do harm to another simply because circumstance, power, authority, or a combination of all three, has given them an opportunity to do so.

    I decided, long before I went to prison, that if my success was dependent upon causing someone else misfortune, then I would not succeed.

    But I suspect that having the moral high ground will be of little comfort if I’m ever faced with a lynch mob and a rope.

  181. 181
    Gyeong Hwa

    -_-

    Okay multiple things in probably non-cohesive order because this is triggering something for me.

    1. I use to be a regular on this blog and I still lurk. So I do know how Pharyngula works (at least when it was on sciblog).
    2. Transwomen, in particularly transwomen of color, have every reason to be suspect of Laci’s apology. Considering that transphobia is often lead to violence against transwomen, I think it’s justified that they demand a more sincere sounding apology from Laci. The problem is that whenever people spout-out transphobic language, people are too quick to defend it.
    3. Ron, do you also realize that ladyatheist acknowledged that it’s wrong to send threats to Laci?
    4. I’m glad y’all (this time I do mean y’all or at least most of you) recognized that threats against women of color are ignored.
    5. That said, some of the things that were said here came off to me as “but we’re not all like that”. I acknowledge that I may be misreading y’all, however as a POC I found it problematic because all to often it’s used an excuse to diverge attention privilege problems. What I wanted to do was inform you that the people defending Laci are problematic too and that some of them are more than happy to ignore treats against Social Justice bloggers. That’s all I wanted: that you acknowledge that they are problematic.
    6. Now I’m going to re-lurk because I don’t want to sound like a SG/SC style asshole.

  182. 182
    Feminace, formerly Qurikythrope

    This is why pointing to what she said rather than pointing to what people have said about her on Tumblr is valuable. Primary sources, people.

    THIS. AGAIN.

    Instead of posting s/he said, s/he said on Tumblr, maybe we should actually look at what Laci’s actually said? Not just the stuff she’s posted in the past, but what she’s doing now with her SEX+ vids. For example, if people think she’s all about the fat-shaming, they’ve obviously never seen her video where Fat Shaming is addressed nor her video discussing thinspo (and why it’s freakin’ scary). Caerie’s already pointed out where folks got it wrong with her views on anal sex.

  183. 183
    RonSwanson

    Gyeong Hwa

    Ron, do you also realize that ladyatheist acknowledged that it’s wrong to send threats to Laci?

    I did.

    And yet, at the same time, I can think that Laci is neither transphobic nor islamophobic. I disagree with ladyatheist on that point. I disagree that Laci’s apologies were “bullshit” as ladyatheist says. I was especially surprised that ladyatheist thought that those accusing Laci of Islamophobia were making valid points. That was why I linked to ladyatheist’s post (which to be fair to you, I was not clear on the first time I posted it, sorry again). However, when I highlighted this part:

    ladyatheist

    Each and every criticism of Laci Green was valid. Her videos were fucked up and her “apologies” were nothing but bullshit.

    I thought I was being pretty clear on what I was disagreeing on. Basically, that statement. The one above.

    “Each and every criticism of Laci Green was valid” – “Each and every?” NO, the islamophobia accusations were not valid. Hell, no. Unless we’re really buying that criticizing Islam is not ok unless you yourself are muslim or a woman.

    “her “apologies” were nothing but bullshit” – As I said, I disagree.

  184. 184
    Dalillama, Schmott Guy

    Unless we’re really buying that criticizing Islam is not ok unless you yourself are muslim or a woman.

    Since Laci is a woman, and apparently grew up in an at least partially Islamic household, even if we did buy into that it would still be bullshit to claim it’s based on Islamophobia.

  185. 185
    strange gods before me ॐ

    6. Now I’m going to re-lurk because I don’t want to sound like a SG/SC style asshole.

    Unnecessary, gratuitous insult to ingratiate yourself with the crowd.

    You may be stressed, but that’s no reason to lash out at me and SC.

    Should I use your name as an insult too?

  186. 186
    strange gods before me ॐ

    even if we did buy into that it would still be bullshit to claim it’s based on Islamophobia.

    Oh, I didn’t notice that anyone was saying it’s “based on” Islamophobia. Did they?

    I thought the point was that it is de facto Islamophobia to single out Islam as teh most sexist religion evar.

  187. 187
    SC (Salty Current), OM

    Beatrice, Crip, and Caerie, I just get the impression sometimes people on FtB don’t acknowledge that harassment and threats are levied against PoC or are complacent to them.

    Three days ago, at FTB.

    6. Now I’m going to re-lurk because I don’t want to sound like a SG/SC style asshole.

    So you’ll remain an asshole with no style.

  188. 188
    Sassafras

    Transwomen, in particularly transwomen of color, have every reason to be suspect of Laci’s apology. Considering that transphobia is often lead to violence against transwomen, I think it’s justified that they demand a more sincere sounding apology from Laci. The problem is that whenever people spout-out transphobic language, people are too quick to defend it.

    That is true, as people shit all over trans women all the time and issue shitty fake apologies for it. In Laci’s case, though, I’m at a loss to see how much more sincere her apology can get short of writing it in blood. She used the word “tranny” in one video years ago, and when called on it she immediately apologized, admitted it was wrong of her and stemmed from her own ignorance of the subject at the time, specifically listed reasons why she as a cis person shouldn’t be using that word, including the violence against trans women, and deleted the offending video. She didn’t try to make it about her. She didn’t delete the video and pretend it didn’t happen; she owned up to the mistake publicly and said why she was deleting it. She did everything just about as perfectly as we always want from cis people who make this mistake. Was there some other, more severe instance of transphobia that people are losing their shit over, ’cause that was pretty weak tea?

    Absent any other evidence, I accept her apology and I think it’s completely sincere; in fact it rose my esteem for her quite a bit. If someone else still finds it insincere, well, they’re entitled to their opinion, but I just can’t see it.

  189. 189
    Ace of Sevens

    Can anyone link to/quote-in-full her actual apology and explain what exactly was wrong with it? I’ve heard a lot about it being insincere, but am confused as to why. I’m also not sure of the PoC connection. Is Laci being accused of being racist? I would need way more specifics.

  190. 190
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    2. Transwomen, in particularly transwomen of color, have every reason to be suspect of Laci’s apology. Considering that transphobia is often lead to violence against transwomen, I think it’s justified that they demand a more sincere sounding apology from Laci. The problem is that whenever people spout-out transphobic language, people are too quick to defend it.

    The defining question is, “did she stop doing it?” This, not a dissection of the exact words and intonation of her apology, should be the barometer of sincerity.

  191. 191
    strange gods before me ॐ

    In this thread:

    cis people define how trans people should feel about an apology.

  192. 192
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    That’s how any reasonable person in ANY group should feel about an apology. That’s how I approach apologies from groups that have privilege I don’t.

  193. 193
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    (I think, it’s been rather a while since I had one instead of just a second wave of NT-splaining.)

  194. 194
    strange gods before me ॐ

    That’s how any reasonable person in ANY group should feel about an apology.

    Or maybe there isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution for how a “reasonable” person would react.

    That’s how I approach apologies from groups that have privilege I don’t.

    Well that’s nice. I’m glad you have a solution that works for you.

  195. 195
    Sassafras

    In this thread:

    cis people define how trans people should feel about an apology.

    I hope that wasn’t including me, because I am a trans woman. Other trans people are entitled to feel however they want about her apology, but I don’t agree with them at all.

  196. 196
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Don’t argue. It doesn’t help.

  197. 197
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Sassafras,

    I don’t think it’s my business if a trans person says other trans people should or should not accept the apology. I’m definitely only referring to the cis people here who are doing that.

  198. 198
    Cipher

    I hope that wasn’t including me, because I am a trans woman. Other trans people are entitled to feel however they want about her apology, but I don’t agree with them at all.

    Don’t worry. I doubt it was meant to include you. Nothing you said came off to me as telling other trans people how to take the apology, even, and from the fact that you said “I accept the apology” and weren’t spilling enough privilegespeak everywhere to seem like the kind of jerk who accepts apologies for other people, it seemed reasonably clear to me that you were a trans person.
    Azkyroth, on the other hand, did appear to be telling trans people how they should take the apology. IIRC he is cis.

  199. 199
    Ace of Sevens

    I’m not saying anyone is obligated to accept the apology, but the rejections implied a good apology was theoretically possible, so I’m wondering how that would look different.

  200. 200
    Sassafras

    Thanks, ixchel, Cipher, I do tend to overworry.

  201. 201
    moonglaive

    @Ace of Sevens

    Q: Hi Laci. Why do you use the word “tr***y” in your video about Haters from 2009? (The one talking about Miley Cyrus, Fred, and Chris Crocker). You really shouldn’t be using that word as a cis girl and it’s really disappointing for the people who look up to you.

    A: Probably because I was 18 and ignorant. You are totally right and I sincerely apologize for my mistake. Before I educated myself about trans issues I had not the slightest inkling of how the word is used to dehumanize nor its place in the cycle of violence against transfolk. Now I have seen people hurt by it and seen it used as a nasty slur. Words have power, and “tr***y” is not a word for anybody but transfolk themselves to use because only they can reclaim it. If I knew that was in a video, it would have been long long ago removed. Consider it banished forever.

    **Can be found here.

  202. 202
    Irène Delse, on dry land among seabirds

    Gyeong Hwa:

    I didn’t even know who Laci Green was before PZ posted this, but I’m following FtB well enough to know that Black Skeptics and Crommunist, among others, are often speaking about racism and the harassment of PoC, and that Nathalie Reed talks a lot about what trans* people face in society and online. (While Greg Laden was there, he would also often talk issues of racism and race privilege.) And PZ and Stephanie Zvan don’t shy from issues of racism and transphobia.

    So… Yeah, talk about painting with broad strokes.

  203. 203
    Ace of Sevens

    Also, are there any specific examples of Laci supporters harassing social-justice bloggers? That could mean a good range of things. I want to make sure we’re talking about the same thing.

  204. 204
    chigau (違う)

    Pikachu
    What’s going on with you?
    There are two lounges now.
    TET and TZT.

  205. 205
    Khantron, the alien that only loves

    Wait, who’s pikachu?

  206. 206
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    Wait, who’s pikachu?

    Gyeong Hwa

  207. 207
    Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Azkyroth was speaking from the position of someone who has enough humiliation-related trauma and enough offline relationships with extremely toxic people that, not only is offering extravagant apologies uncomfortable and triggering (especially when a mistake is recognized and efforts not to repeat it are already being undertaken), but even reading them from third parties to other third parties is uncomfortable and triggering, and who meanwhile has ALSO had extensive experience with extravagant apologies that are NOT followed by changes in behavior consistent with sincerity, therefore has insight from multiple angles to the effect that what is done following an apology is vastly more significant than what language it contains. Why this became an issue of cis vs. trans is unclear. Unfortunately, NT privilege is a motherfucker and it is unlikely any actual explanation will be offered, and if it is, it will only be tossed out as an afterthought in the most spiteful, belittling fashion possible.

  208. 208
    Feminace, formerly Qurikythrope

    I’ve been avoiding discussing the accusation of “Laci is transphobic” because it’s certainly not my right to tell transfolk how to take an apology. At the same time, I don’t want to fall into the mindset of picking through everything a victim of harassment at this level said as if she deserved it. So I hope to step lightly here, but I’ll take my smackings if my cisprivilege is showing here.

    That said, I’ve read the link moonglaive posted and between that and her recent Trans 101 vid and the fact that she’s never used that slur again in her vids or blog posts in nearly 3-4 years, I’d like to know where this accusation came from, is she really holding some transphobic leanings or is there some misunderstandings going on?

  209. 209
    The Mellow Monkey: Non-Hypothetical

    …is she really holding some transphobic leanings or is there some misunderstandings going on?

    Considering how easily falsifiable the claims were about her supporting rape culture in the anal sex video, I’m leaning towards misunderstanding with a healthy side helping of tumblr’s format leading to a lot of subjective statements getting reported as fact.

    I don’t think she’s a perfect person or has gotten everything right in the past, not by a long shot. She’s very flippant and doesn’t seem to be entirely aware of the privilege she has. If people dislike her or don’t accept her apology, that is entirely their call. They don’t have to like her, nor do they have to accept her apology.

    But no one should be subjected to stalking and death threats.

  210. 210
    chigau (違う)

    Beatrice
    *tsk*

  211. 211
    Beatrice, an amateur cynic looking for a happy thought

    chigau,

    Oh, crap. You used the other… because…. oh crap. Sorry.

  212. 212
    strange gods before me ॐ

    Azkyroth was speaking from the position of someone who has

    found a solution that works for him. And that’s great. Your solution isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution for how everyone “reasonable” should think about apologies.

    Why this became an issue of cis vs. trans is unclear.

    Because that’s what’s being talked about in this thread.

    Unfortunately, NT privilege is a motherfucker and it is unlikely any actual explanation will be offered,

    You spoke as a cis person telling trans people how they should understand and deal with their own oppression — worse yet, on the subject of when they owe a certain interpretation for the sake of the comfort of a member of the oppressing group.

    and if it is, it will only be tossed out as an afterthought in the most spiteful, belittling fashion possible.

    And lead us not into temptation.

    (Do note that NT people are impatient with each other too, and not everyone who criticizes you is NT.)

  213. 213
    Kagehi

    Instead of posting s/he said, s/he said on Tumblr, maybe we should actually look at what Laci’s actually said? Not just the stuff she’s posted in the past, but what she’s doing now with her SEX+ vids. For example, if people think she’s all about the fat-shaming, they’ve obviously never seen her video where Fat Shaming is addressed nor her video discussing thinspo (and why it’s freakin’ scary). Caerie’s already pointed out where folks got it wrong with her views on anal sex.

    Yeah, this blind ignorance of what she has actually posted on multiple subjects, including the flat out complete ignorance of the fact, by one poster, that Laci directly addressed the very concern they insist she didn’t, leads me to believe we have the Tumblr equivalent of religion vs. Dawkins, i.e., “I haven’t done more than skim through the book, so I don’t have the slightest clue what the frak I am talking about, but here is a list of things I ***think*** where not addressed, what a bloody asshole for not addressing them!” In other words, the worst sort of attacker, the one that does so based on bullshit assertions of what someone else either told them the victim said, or they imagined the victim said. Anyone that makes such accusations, especially in defense of how someone “deserved” even more abuse from another source, doesn’t deserve the time of day, regardless of what ever “issues” they claim are not also being addressed. How would they know if they where being addressed anyway, instead of hearing, third or fourth hand, from someone else that someone talked about the issue, but, supposedly, said something horrible. After all, that is what is being “assumed” to be true here, in every example you gave.

    What I wanted to do was inform you that the people defending Laci are problematic too and that some of them are more than happy to ignore treats against Social Justice bloggers. That’s all I wanted: that you acknowledge that they are problematic.

    And you are looking for an impossibility. All kinds of idiots show support for other people, based on 1-2 things they actually give a shit about, while ignoring their own blind spots. That some people are bad people, and may be defending her with as much cluelessness as I, personally, think she is being attacked with, doesn’t say a damn thing about Laci. She cannot and does not control what those people think, or what stupidities they believe.

    I also said harassment against women of color and transwomen are ignored (even by the same people who defended Laci Green).

    Sigh.. None of us have every page of the damn internet streaming into our heads at every moment. Most of us know that there is some level of this BS going on, all the time, some place, and we address it ***when we are aware of it***, but if we spent as much time as some people seem to think we need to, we would have to quit our jobs, have the damn computer hardwired into our brains, and stop sleeping, to deal with ***every damn problem*** out there. I don’t know, maybe you personally are some sort of mutant, that warps time, so you have infinite time to do this, and still remain sane. To the rest of us, you sound like some moron telling us, “You shouldn’t have helped that white homeless person, whom you pass on the street every day, you should have given your help to the homeless black person, 10 blocks away, that you have never seen before.”

    So, now, due to your unenlightened attempt at shaming us for not being omniscient, are aware of it. Go away, so we can decide what the do about the problem. You made a valid point, but you did it in defense of pure weapons grade bullshit. Constantly whining that we are not addressing it, and that, somehow, we are improperly defending someone that the accusers here can’t even get their facts right about, after having only just bloody found out about your issues, isn’t making you look any less like an asshole. If anything, its making you look like a worse one, since all you are doing is defending harassment of someone innocent of most, if not all, of what is being accused, while complaining about people doing the exact same thing to the people *you* care so much about.

    But, seriously, how does becoming one of the clueless masses who attack people for invalid, second/third/fourth hand reasons, without knowing what the hell they are talking about, make you “better”, just because your target is white and cis, instead of black and trans?

  214. 214
    Ms. Daisy Cutter, General Manager for the Cleveland Steamers

    Caerie, #175: I realize I’m responding belatedly, but thanks for that.

  215. 215
    Cipher

    Why this became an issue of cis vs. trans is unclear. Unfortunately, NT privilege is a motherfucker and it is unlikely any actual explanation will be offered, and if it is, it will only be tossed out as an afterthought in the most spiteful, belittling fashion possible.

    It started out as an issue of cis vs. trans. That’s what the apology was for. A comment about trans people.
    And god dammit, Azkyroth, I’m not NT.

  216. 216
    CX316

    Ok seriously, this is bullshit. As mentioned, she is nowhere near transphobic, and for the thing saying she hated blacks and jews… wtf? I spent the last two days going as far back on her Tumblr as I could get and every post involving an african american was positive (or complaining about white-washing images to make them more white)

    I haven’t had time to go through all her YT videos, but I watched 5 or 6 and there wasn’t anything remotely hateful in the ones I watched, many of them were frankly deeply moving emotional videos (I watched a few of the body image, confidence and domestic violence ones)… all in all she seems like a lovely young lady and definitely does not deserve anything near the level of bullshit she’s copping for trying to help people…

    …although personally I’m shocked it’s the muslims coming after her, since she’s done work with Planned Parenthood… I’d expect the christian fundies to be after her more than the muslim ones…

  217. 217
    michellefitzgerald

    I’m actually ON tumblr and found out about this because at the time I was following a social justice tumblr, which I instantly stopped following when they revealed themselves to be on the wrong side of this issue. Yes. I considered the people who are attacking Laci Green to be on the ‘wrong’ side.

    I’ve looked at their posts and as others have noticed a lot of them are ‘I heard from X, who heard from Y, that 1 said Z!’. In a shocking number of the people ‘calling her out’ on her ‘transphobia’ or ‘Islamophobia’ are doing it from third of forth hand knowledge. It’s fucking stupid if you ask me. It took me a handful of seconds to find her apology for the remark she made 3 years ago and I found her apology bloody well fantastic. After seeing and endless slew of notpologies from people (The recent Tosh incident giving a LOVERLY example of how not to apologize) hers was a breath of fresh air.

    As near as I can tell the majority of the hate she’s getting is for her comments on Islam which I also find stupid. It puzzles me how anyone can look at how women are treated in -all- of the predominately Muslim countries and go ‘What? Islam isn’t sexist!’ or say ‘It’s a cultural thing!’. That’s why I take issue with religions damn it! It enshrines cultural practices, customs and beliefs from a time in which we as a species weren’t very socially advanced or considerate of well… ANYONE but the people in power.

    Tumblr is a terrible place to have any meaningful dialog. It’s great for joking around and being not serious but even that gets screwed up all the time. Tumblr is just a sort of place with a short attention span and a whole lot of misguided outrage. For every quality blog it has that talk about real important issues there are 100 blogs about ships and sinking them. Ships meaning fictional pairings… that stuff is probably the majority of what gets talked about on Tumblr.

  218. 218
    BrianX

    Gyeong Hwa:

    You would have to be out of your goddamned mind to be looking at what’s happened within the skeptical community for the last year and what side of it Pharyngulites have taken to think any of us approve of harassing anyone like this, Laci Green, people of color, trans* people, whatever. If you know what the overall attitude of the community is and then have the godalmighty nerve to accuse it of supporting something just because it’s not explicitly spoken about, then you are a motherfucking idiot and should shut the fuck up and let the adults do the talking because you’re on a level of intelligence that would add 2+2 and get a chicken sandwich.

  219. 219
    anotheratheist

    It is brave and ironic at the same time that the highest prophet of the church of “calling people that disagree with us dumb fuckwits or as of late MRAs” now feels the need to tell his disciples that physical threats are never acceptable even if somebody disagrees with you. But don’t worry people bullying and harassment isn’t really bullying and harassment if it is done by the Good Guys(TM).

    To 90 % of the commenters here: You are serial bullies and harassers. You can still complain about other people bullying and harassing you but you have long ago lost the moral high ground to do so.

  220. 220
    Cipher

    You are serial bullies and harassers.

    Bare assertion is my favorite kind of argument.

  221. 221
    Nerd of Redhead, Dances OM Trolls

    But don’t worry people bullying and harassment isn’t really bullying and harassment if it is done by the Good Guys(TM).

    BALD FACED LIE WITHOUT A CITATION TO BACK IT UP.

    You are serial bullies and harassers.

    BALD FACED LIE WITHOUT A CITATION TO BACK IT UP.

    Cupcake, here’s what you and all your buddies at the slimepit fail to do: Say “The proposed harassment policies don’t work as advertised according to these stuidies (link to the studies)”. And you know why you don’t do that? You don’t have anything other than your OPINION, and you can only attempt to bully us since you have no evidence. Your whining evidenceless post is prima facie evidence you tacitly acknowledge all you have is bullying on your part. That is why you and your fuckwitted buddies get nowhere. Lose the bullying attitude that we must believe your baldfaced lies/assertions, and start showing real evidence. Or, shut the fuck up.

  222. 222
    Avo, also nigelTheBold

    anotheratheist:

    It is brave and ironic at the same time that the highest prophet of the church of “calling people that disagree with us dumb fuckwits or as of late MRAs” now feels the need to tell his disciples that physical threats are never acceptable even if somebody disagrees with you.

    I don’t think you know what the word ironic means.

    Calling you a dumb fuckwit because you are a dumb fuckwit is not even in the same category as calling for violence.

    I’m trusting even you can see the difference between the two.

  223. 223
    'Tis Himself

    I’m trusting even you can see the difference between the two.

    He’s probably too much of a dumb fuckwit to figure it out.

  224. 224
    Drolfe

    Crip Dyke!

    First, thank you for the thorough and detailed response. I was absolutely asking out of ignorance not malice.

    The splat wild card is NOT new. In fact, this is how “trans” came about. In the latest, latest 80s and the very early 90s, when people were first starting to build communities online using bbs’s and e-mail listserves, etc. trans communities started to become wildly larger – and more diverse

    And I wasn’t trying to make a claim to newness. It just seemed to me that eg ‘transpeople’ was maximally inclusive without the confusion of adding in the splat. Let me explain. It seems like we joined the ‘net at abut the same time. My first job not counting two summers at McDonald’s was doing GIS and UNIX programming in an all UNIX shop (this was for government so all IBM, AIX everywhere). Before this I was just tooling around bbses and whatever I could wardial. Being legit now I had a real email address, access to usenet, and big bandwidth. Perl was the new hotness. Point being I’m coming from 20 years of experience with regular expressions, and the splat in trans* is not one (and so from that pov it doesn’t mean what it’s supposed to mean, confusing). It’s a glob at best, and I get that it is or was a useful shortcut. I’m explicitly not suggesting that it not be used (even if just as a reminder). I’ve used all kinds of mediums where globbing and programming syntax is just part of the vernacular, but I was personally unfamiliar with it in this setting in this era.

    That said when I see the splat at the end of trans I’m looking for an endnote, as asterisks are usually used for in blog writing. Its use in this setting gives me some dissonance and that’s what lead me to wonder if it was idiosyncratic or something. I’m glad your comment mentioned the confusion of outsiders because it was a comfort that I wasn’t just being dumb. It was a good lesson for me and useful for others too.

    I wanted to respond with gratitude sooner, but I’ve been traveling.
    Thanks again!

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