This is new! I usually don’t get rape fantasies, but Thunderf00t’s angry rabble have opened up exciting new vistas.
The whole point of free-thinking is to express what you have been thinking to others; what would the point of Socrates’ trial have been if he had not made the impressive speeches he made? If the people judging him had simply written him off as ‘too out there’ and simply condemned him five minutes into his talking? The point I’m trying to make is that as much as I think Watson is at a minimum misguided, you are culpable for much worse. Free Speech is the fundamental human right; without it, we are all doomed. You removing his website because you disagree on a matter of opinion makes you as bad as the papacy banning books, or Iran banning books, etc. etc…. In other words, by shutting off free expression you have sauntered effortlessly to lines the old and evil; too much information is bad, we decide what you should be exposed to, let’s have Salman Rushdie killed for writing something we don’t agree with. You have not tried to have Tf00t killed yet(my, what restraint you have), but at this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see that either. You’re supposed to be a scientist; a little open-mindedness goes a long way in investigating the truth.
In this modern world the only way to survive and live well is to laugh, rather than cry… A little cynicism never hurt anyone.
Anyway, I don’t believe I shall be reading your blogs any more; at least until you apologize to Mr. f00t; if you don’t all I can to is hope you get raped to death by Jaguars in the Yucatan. Next time think with your brain instead of your balls, and maybe over time I’ll grow to trust and respect you again. until then, eat shit. I mean, you’re supposed to be a scientist, for Christ’s sake.
I could swear some more but based off what I know of you you’re probably bawling already. Nobody likes a crybaby. You old cunt.
Thanks for your time!
Phil Krstulich,
someone who actually believes in equality of right for all humankind, and who isn’t a two-faced fuck who pretends to be in favor of free speech while trying to stamp it out.
Curses! My plan to have Thunderf00t killed has been exposed!
I have now seen a teeny tiny fraction of what Anita Sarkeesian gets.
Since he’s wrong about that, his argument contributes to making the world a worse place for women. Just like if he were minimizing the problem of racism, it would make the world worse for people of color.
As such, we don’t consider him to be a great guy.
(Your ability to distance yourself from issues of sexism like this is a manifestation of your male privilege.)
Abbie, don’t be a hero
Don’t be a fool with your life
I have too many crappy seventies era pop songs in my head.
As a series of concern-trolling rhetorical questions and ignorant fucking commands? No.
How nice for you.
no it literally is wasting time and making noise. Seriously would you expect any geologists to fucking humor me if I go in mention how I know nothing of the subject but have strong opinions!
In fact strong opinions and ignorance is profoundly immoral IMO
[OT]
bannedatheist:
Your metric for meritoriousness is popularity?
(Your guess of four orders of magnitude is rather ridiculous, BTW)
<snicker>
Your asserting something both fallacious and implausible is evidence that you’ve asserted it, not that it’s factual.
Ing:
Yes. That actually left me
speechlesstextless. For those who missed it, here ya go.now telling people is called an “ad hom” too? that term doesn’t mean anything anymore, does it, other than being a fancy way of saying “you’re mean to me”
to confuse lack of “bad” words with not just civility but intelligence is a sign that you’re probably neither civilized nor intelligent, since you confuse form for substance.
I did. If you think we have deep rifts…And also, if you thought you had seen the bottom of the pit…
The Hoax, a catholic medieval wannabe, was always so fucking civil. No bad words, just poisonous ideas.
Caine: Merci. And mercy.
Hi Tinjoe #486. I was almost out of here when I saw your comment. That’s more like it! Thanks for a level-headed reply that didn’t include insults.
Like I said, I was banned from DU precisely for calling a bigot a “bigot”. If it had been real life, I would have called him much worse. But I was on DU, and they have a policy against ad hominem attacks. You call it a shortcut. I call it a waste of my time. On the webs, everybody’s a nobody. If I can’t continue an argument, or I can’t win with reason and without engaging in a personal attack, I write them off. I don’t switch to 3rd grade antics as my plan B. DU encourages such civility by banning anyone who violates the personal attack rule. Either folks talk in their grown-up voices, or they find another website to lurk on (like this one, in my case).
I prefer DU. Kinda missing it right now… liberal Xtians and all. At least they make an effort to communicate complex thoughts using English.
RE: TF. I’ve sorta followed the story. I stand by PZ and Ed 100%. I’m saying if it was me, I’d ban about half of the slimepit, too.
keithroragen
keithroragen
keithroragen
Just wanted to get your attention.
Please read these two posts:
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/11/23/a-very-special-episode-of-grey-areas-privilege-denying-dude-edition/
http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com/2012/06/note-to-those-who-say-they-oppose.html
where the fuck did you get the idea that it’s “ok” to have a public opinion on a subject you know fuck-all about?
whatever happened to not having and not voicing an opinion until you know, and restricting oneself to asking questions until then?
Alright then you need to read this too:
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2010/11/23/a-very-special-episode-of-grey-areas-privilege-denying-dude-edition/
“No, your interlocutor suggested that face-to-face or telephone interactions don’t automatically (“magically”) resolve disputes better than written interaction does. Do you always argue this dishonestly?”
I’m not suggesting anything would be “magically or automatically” resolved. But I think it might be possible. Why not try? Perhaps there are nuances that could be flushed out that all parties could agree upon. I think the guy who objected (he called me fcukweasel or something I think – so confusing this forum) further replied that he did think writing was superior and the way to go and was further contemptuous of my viewpoint.
My experience doesn’t bear this out in any case. I happen to have seen a couple of videos of PZ and thunderf00t getting along nicely and these two admiring each quite openly. Why would it be so impossible for them to work this out?
And how the fuck does DU thus improve ‘civil’ debate.
Also you are aware that it is common trolling to bait people into breaking a rule like that while you snicker at them being punished?
We do here too. With a few more English words, in case you haven’t notice. But no, you are too busy complaining to say “this is what I believe, and this is the evidence (link to evidence) to back it up”. Easy, if you aren’t just bullshitting like you are doing.
Where’s PZ’s apology for you telling him how to run his long lasting blog??? No honesty and integrity is noted from a tone troll. Not surprising…
Somebody let me know when bannedasshole starts saying something of substance, okay? I don’t have killfile but my scroll button works just fine.
I just saw Flight of Dodos, which is a great documentary on the religious right and their efforts to kill science by bringing creationism/i.d. into the classroom.
The guy who did it was a former evolutionary biologist who studied under Gould. In parts of the documentary he went back to Harvard and interviewed a number of prominent scientists about evolution and about right wing efforts to dilute science education.
His point was really interesting. He exposed the scientists as a bunch of loud mouth, arrogant, and socially lazy assholes. He also showed that often the right wing spokes-people actually seem personable. I couldn’t go along with that completely; I find right wing idiots just too obnoxious to bear. However, I am extremely biased, so I gave the documentary author the benefit of the doubt.
His points about the scientists, however, were right on: they did come off loud mouthed, arrogant, and socially lazy (they thought it beneath them to engage in debate or to campaign for science education).
It really changed my opinion on the secular movement. I used to enjoy PZ’s nasty rants once in a while. Now, I just see an arrogant, self-consumed academic who takes great pride in being an asshole. I appreciate all PZ has done to get the word out, but, come on, some of his posts just drip with adolescent “whose on top” bullshit.
I think Dawkins comes closer to what our movement needs. He knows how to present a good, strong argument; to make public appearances, and he does it without being an asshole. He is rather charming.
Yea, I know: if you don’t like PZ why come to the site.
Just wanted to share something I saw on a great documentary.
And, acting like an angry adolescent usually only appeals to other angry adolescents.
Cheers PZ
Even funnier: xe also posted derisively that our standards and practices were like 4chan’s. Now, the numbers aren’t reliable, but 4chan? Way more users than DU.
Your argument from popularity is broken.
@Ing
That speech was just weird. I would never fawn over someone like that. Even my own personal heroes.
Guh! It says in the First Amendment that everybody is supposed to have a strong opinion about everything, and state those opinions constantly, no matter how uninformed, preferably while drunk, because otherwise the terrorists have won!
still true. did you know I got tone trolled on my own blog for telling him to stop hijacking conversations?
Translation: I am openly talking out of my ass and yet I want to be able to move back in time.
Sheepcake, you are still doing yourself no favors.
Oh for Fucks sake
I think everyone is willing to engage in civil discourse, as you define it Argue in good faith, be willing to admit you might be wrong and be willing to listen when you are wrong will get you a long way.
Repeating the same thing over again, or trying to dictate how an established community behaves themselves is just a way to derail whatever conversations were going, and then people get prickly.
Jim,
Dawkins who dismisses women’s concerns of safety at conferences.
+++++
The never-ending stream of privileged mansplaining douchebags never ends, does it?
Yes, our movement needs a whole lot more of that minimizing of women. I personally love being silenced by my heroes and ignored when I answer their ignorant questions! And lol at this
as an attempted slam on PZ!
“Yeah I’m a fucking monster. No question.”
“you’re confused.”
Wait I thought I was a “fuckweasel” Isn’t that what you wanted to say. Again.
“So you’re suggesting misunderstandings that happen in print cannot be resolved by real time or better yet, face to face conversation?”
“they cannot be resolved better than in writing, no. what the fuck is it with privileging a form of conversation in which you can be emotionally manipulated, talked over, yelled at, interrupted, and have to try to think on the fly without the luxury of having the time to compose your argument?”
Quite a drama you got envisioned there don’t you think? How about the just talk. Him, Greta Christina, Rebecca, DJ, the whole lot of them. Perhaps they will surprise all.
Since we’re apparently manufacturing new rules for discourse that are independent of whether an argument is empirically supportable or logically consistent, I propose a few new ones, inspired by blandatheist.
1. When you affect the speaking style of a moustache-twirling villain, you have lost the argument. See:
2. If you bleat repeatedly about name-calling – while yourself engaging in name-calling – you have lost the argument. See:
3. If you threaten to flounce because you don’t want to stay and “trade one-liners,” but then you stay and trade one-liners, you have lost the argument. See:
Because judging arguments on the basis of their structure and their connection to reality is HARD! Much easier to sneer at gutter language and flounce in a huff.
Why should anything be done now. TF is divorced form FtB, not to return. Why do you think any talking at this stage would change that fact, other than delusional thinking (or not thinking) on your part? Just another MRA tone troll fuckwit.
[meta]
bannedatheist:
FFS!
Therefore, you come to this nasty place and persistently whine and blah the effect that this place should change more like that place that banned you and then you’d like it more.
Your opinion is noted, stupid and antithetical to the spirit of this place as it is.
I seriously seriously seriously hate everyone, if the impotent floundering skeptic movement dies a horrible death from this schism I will not shed a single solitary tear.
The fact that you don’t recognize that this is incredibly common in in-person and not “quite a drama” doesn’t speak well of you.
But then, you apparently completely lack a healthy sense of self-awareness, since you are still babbling at people who know the situation better than you do.
Jim, thank you for that giant turd. That was needed.
*eyeroll*
Mmmmmm. I remember one time he was particularly nasty to Janine, but I don’t remember exactly what he said. I just remember I blew up at him and said something like “why the fuck would we ever want to build bridges with you”
Jim:
What our movement needs? Really? Yes, his Dear Muslima spoke volumes to all the women in the atheist/skeptic communities. Oh, wait, what am I saying? Women don’t count, do they Jim?
You’re quite the asshole, swimming in that oversized pool of privilege.
And your tone trolling showed your angry adolescent side. Keep in mind you have no place coming to PZ’s blog and criticizing it without appearing crude and rude. Which you were.
Has the tone troll gone away yet? Has sheepdip learned to read before writing admitted ignorance?
This particular sentiment has come up regularly of late. I am inferring that it is supposed to mean “You are both wrong”. So it seems to be tone trolling of the xkcd kind. Can’t see the point of it, otherwise.
*shuffles feet*
Oh-KAY, can’t see the point of it either way.
sheeptick:
Such disingenuous evasiveness!
The rebuttal was a direct response to your question, thus any inherent drama you perceive was inherent in it.
More to the point, you’ve not rebutted that response, but merely characterised it as dramatic and reiterated your original point.
(There’s a name for that)
why do you think a form of communication that is full of interruptions and doesn’t allow a person to take the time to compose their thoughts and arguments is better for flushing out nuances?
interesting assumption there
I do, personally. Ive asked you why you think otherwise. are you actually going to respond?
Why aren’t you getting them all on the phone now, instead of talking to those who won’t take the action you want? Typical of MRA fuckwits. Can’t do the job, must leave it up to others as they aren’t the mature ones… You suggestion is three days to late. Any fuckwit knows that… Which shows your lack of intelligence and utter banality.
Word up gurl. Have a glass of wine on me.
Ixchel:
No.
Sheeptick.
Oh and you know what “old timer skeptics” PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE IN BIGFOOT!
So you set the bar impossibly low and still failed. Take a fucking bow!
You don’t seriously think the only reason why DemocraticUnderground is bigger than Pharyngula is due to tone, do you?
Do you?
Have you tried counting how many atheists there are, and how many Democrats?
(I’m not bashing what DU does; they have a different purpose. It is entirely possible that their practices coincide well with their purpose.)
Know what else is hysterical? Someone citing Dawkins as the civil voice of reason. Why, I thought he was the most arrogant, self-absorbed cruel and shrill bastard ever.
Note the phenomenon this flushes out: There will always be a subset of people who judge worth based on the perceived and relative “meanness” of two parties. They never make any absolute judgments, they’re like passive frames pushed to and fro by the Overton window sliding back and forth. Pathetic.
Seconded as fuck.
I bet you don’t know why this was a really bad idea to say here. Do you, sheeptick?
A fetish of apathy
“That requires the immature acting party, in this case TF, to back down. Until you show he was capable and willing to do so, you don’t have a case. TF was playing hardball, and it backfired.”
Yeah, you might be right. I really don’t know what TF is capable of. I do know I’ve had a lot friends speak out of turn and later regret it. I’ve had friends be wrong. I’ve even had friends who were misunderstood. The point I’d like to make is those friends remained my friends until they went beyond any chance of reconciliation. This whole dust up seemed to span a couple of weeks. The guy is a good guy. He was INVITED in because he was a good guy, so why not let him stay, speak his mind and let the consensus decide his fate? By, let’s say, not reading his blog.
However, Thunderf00t fading into ignominy on Free Thought Blogs would probably be unlikely considering his comportment on Youtube. The fucker has been a champion there, hasn’t he? Not an asshole or a woman hater, callous boor or whatever. But a genuinely good guy. Why doesn’t that count? Why put your chits in if all that happens is you’re jettisoned from fellowship over a controversial viewpoint? Defeats the purpose of Free Thought.
You think he’s wrong, convince him.
I am loving this comment by truebutnotuseful.
Because he was actively slagging off other people here.
Apparently everyone thinks Benson should just go fuck herself.
No he isn’t.
No he wasn’t. This is an objectively false claim. It’s not a matter of opinion.
He was invited because he made good videos against creationism. Full stop.
Get your fucking facts right.
“sheeptick, Some advice. When you come into a highly charged forum and basically scream
I have no clue what you are all discussing but I heard some bad things and I think you are all very mean
It doesn’t say much good about you. SO my advice is to at least have a clue what you are talking about instead of coming in waving your arms and yelling
LOOK AT MY IGNORANCE AND INCREDULITY! PAY ATTENTION TO THEM!”
I didn’t write any of this
“Melby, I didn’t ask why you think it would be wrong to judge TF by his fan’s stupid behavior. I asked why you would post something like that. If you had no evidence that anyone was doing that, why the vague finger-wagging at nobody? If you did have evidence that anyone was doing that, why the vague finger-wagging at nobody?”
OH! Fair point.
I wasn’t accusing anyone of anything – that’s why I said it was “obvious”. However, yeah, I guess it didn’t need saying.
Sorry about that.
The consensus did decide his fate, fuckwit. Deal with it.
You know what I’ve learned about myself today? I totally ignore posts in which the poster doesn’t bother to differentiate quotations from the rest of their screed.
(I could probably teach my turtle how to blockquote properly and she doesn’t even have fingers.
Just sayin’.)
keithroragen, as you watch the obtuse responses from sheeptick, consider what it’s like to deal with this kind of shit every single day like many women here do.
Then think about whether the anger you see here is understandable.
what? no.
he was invited because he made good anti-creationist videos and because he and PZ were friends. He is not a “good guy”, and was known not to be a good guy by many people who’ve seen his anti-muslim videos, for example.
Yeah. Can’t be bothered with commenters who can’t bother to format. It’s an act of orthographic hostility.
sheeptick:
I don’t watch youtube personalities, but I hear the fucker (to employ your quaint idiom) can manage to deride creationists competently.
Big deal.
The point is that, as a blogger here, he was hardly a champion; rather, he was a pathetic failure. Shot himself in the foot.
(Deal with it)
Quoted for fucking truth.
+++++
“Hey! Hey wimminz! I don’t understand why you don’t like having your personal safety dismissed! Maybe you are jumping to conclusions! Maybe you should put up with months and months and months of it before you decide that you’re really sure you don’t like having your personal safety dismissed!”
Janine- I think Thunderfoot will be angry for a while, no matter what PZ does or doesn’t say, and the people who have decided to hate this blog for whatever reason will continue to do so.
Having said that, I think ‘Phil’ is clearly trolling. His email seems designed to bait the community here, he uses the c-word and references rape, which even a casual reader of the blog like me knows are red flags to all of you. What trolls want is a reaction. PZ has given him one. If he’s like most trolls, he’ll enjoy the attention, even if it’s negative. I doubt exposing his stupidity is worth the time and effort, especially since he might enjoy it.
Your fuckwitted OPINION isn’t shared, not will it be until the right words come from TF. You aren’t helping make that happen, as it must come from TF. Go do your efforts there, not here.
Actually not that surprising. Two different skill sets are needed for films and blogging. He has one, but not both. It showed very rapidly.
Gee, telling half the population they are nothing but playthings? That isn’t what a good guy does. It is what a jerk does. And you know that. Stop defending him.
Free thought is more than ideas. It is also the evidence required to make informed decisions. TF ignored the evidence. Which is terminally bad for a scientist.
Ass backwards. He must convince us he is right, with that evidence he ignored (like not reading the proposed policy for three days). And you ignore too. Time to shut the fuck up. You are repeating yourself ad nauseum.
I thought that’s what PZ, Greta, Zinnia, hundreds of comments attempted to do. And what was his ultimate response, a YouTube comment poll saying “My fans agree with me more than they agree with you”
You’re wrong about that.
actually, that’s very much what you wrote, in effect. or what did you think your first comment was, saying you don’t know shit about shit but are going to kill a teal deer with your opinion anyway?
Unless I severely misread the post announcing their departure, Thunderf00t and Greg Laden were not removed for their views, rather, they were removed for their treatment of other FtB bloggers?
Did I miss something or did the email writer miss something?
“Oh wait, you already have put up with months and months and months of it? Years of it? A lifetime of it? Still, you can’t be sure until I’m sure!“
Audley:
Well, Emery isn’t stupid or willfully ignorant. Hell, the rats do a better job than the current crop of stupid.
“And then he proceeded to step into something he doesn’t understand, was dismissive of people’s first hand experience, knowledge, and criticisms. He argued in bad faith, and then he turned to his YouTube community to back him up with a laughably ridiculous poll. Whatever goodwill got him the gig, evaporated when he double (or triple) downed on his initial post. It really doesn’t matter that he wrote poorly, he didn’t seem to be honestly engaging with anyone that was telling him “You’re wrong and here is why” So until you go back and read a dozen blog posts, and a couple hundred comments from people who already have, kindly keep your ignorance to yourself please.”
Well the best way out of ignorance is stepping in,so to speak, and I’m learning as I go along. I freely admitted my ignorance so good on me, eh . I’ll take links btw.
At any rate, my knowledge of the man up to this dust up has been hugely positive. And my points have been general and non-specific which are valid points nonetheless. I won’t shut up on you vouchsafe. Cripes I just got here.
I’ve heard a lot about this “being wrong” thing, but the closest I’ve ever come to it is watching my friends be wrong.
Well, how long should people have given Thunderf00t to come around on this issue? How many utterly clueless paranoid screeds should he be able to write before someone asks him to leave?
It’s not as if none of the other bloggers here tried to explain to him why he was wrong. Yet Thunderf00t merely dug his heels in deeper. How much longer did this need to go on before it meets your standards of being beyond a chance of reconciliation?
Thunderf00t’s behavior on youtube has hardly shown him to be a “genuinely good guy”. Don’t get me wrong, I originally liked much of his work, back when he stuck to debunking creationism.
But then came the Islamophobia. And the way he acted when he came into conflict with other youtubers. And his insistence on talking about issues which he clearly knew nothing about.
Thunderf00t showed himself to be an asshole long before he was invited to FTB.
@Josh & Pentatomid (#3 &4, respectively) — Rule 34. Just… Rule 34.
@hyperdeath (#14) — I misread that as “prehensile tentacles”.
@Josh (#99) — You… you just ruined “Rock With You”. NOOOOOO!!!!!
@Josh( #209) — I misread “draguar” as “draugar” and wondered why Nord grave-wights would want high heels.
@Brownian (#229) — Thank you! Now I know what the plural of “penis” is!
===
And I can’t even continue after reading the phrase “weenie linguini”, I’m trying not to fall out of my chair laughing!
Ixchel:
:snort: You’re forgetting, we’re dealing with a particularly toxic strain of privilege: “If it doesn’t affect me, it doesn’t matter, don’t you get that! Sheesh, stop complaining!”
That and “He’s a genuinely good guy, what’s your problem, why you so mean!?”
Go here.
Josh:
That’s it! Refusing to learn how the comments flow is just fucking obnoxious.
(Seriously, it’s HTML. How fucking hard can it be to Google that shit?)
ixchel:
*raised eyebrow*
Only months and months? How about our entire damned lives?
nonny:
I for one am glad that after 565 comments, someone has finally figured this out.
(And why not fight against trolls? We’re supposed to let this shit slid &/or not have fun calling them out?)
Freethought
“Not to be confused with Freedom of thought“
+++++
Freedom of thought
“It is different from and not to be confused with the concept of freedom of speech or expression.”
And a whole bunch of stuff seems to have disappeared while I was posting.
Okay, then. Disregard.
ixchel:
There we go! (Should have refreshed!)
nonny:
O ye of little faith!
Have you considered that it’s a bit of a throwaway post by PZ, that it’s (so far) garnered 572 comments, that it’s topical?
(Really, just how much time and effort do you imagine PZ spent on this? I wager significantly less than the author did. :) )
I demand to know which of you is forcing this poor man to come to this website and then turn on the comments and read them and then submit a comment himself. Who is it! Speak up!
And please note, the poor fellow HAZ A SAD. Is there no end to this infamy?
Oh, and no keithroragen, Toot is not banned.
Oh my word.
Sheepcake, you fucking do not get it. The problem is that that you are ignorant about the issue. Most people are. That is not a failing.
The problem is that your proudly proclaim and still insist on throwing shit. And whine to the big blue sky when people point this out to you and tease you in the process.
Also, here is a huge fucking hint for you. People here are upset that ThunderingFool is so willing to dismissing what women have to say. And the simple fact that you call him a great guy and seem to agree with his dismissal of women’s concerns shows that you share the same believe.
This makes you a gibbering idiot.
I did write this.
I know.
I mean to say it appears sheepdip wants you to put up with it until T + more months &months &months,
where T is the arrival time of Thunderfoot at FtB.
ixchel:
My bad. I didn’t get the whole gist of that post ’til I saw your continuation at 571.
sheeptick:
You’re transparent; your white-knighting for thunderpod consists of endlessly repeating you think he’s a good guy and can’t you all just get along and make me happy?
(Why can’t you face reality?)
Yeah, you just got here, and you have the repertoire of a vuvuzela.
[meta]
SamStrange @74, pearls and swine.
No, that’s not true.
The best way is to get yourself an education in the matter. If you want help, you’ll probably get it, but you should stop making statements and start asking questions.
Immediately stop making statements. Then think clearly about what you want to ask. Then go google and see if you can find the answer. If you can’t, then ask, but don’t make any more statements while you ask.
Nice.
No. The best way out of ignorance is to shut up and listen. Maybe you’re learning faster this way – although I doubt it – but you’re also annoying the fuck out of a lot of other people who have put up with more bullshit than they can stand at this point.
WMDKitty, don’t worry, the comments didn’t disappear! When the comments thread gets to more than 500, we go to a second page. Right above the comments box it should say “Older comments” and can take you back to the other ones.
Lyn M:
It was me. I whispered to the Jaguars of Doom™ and they immediately took off and dragged the poor man here unwillingly by his tattered clothing.
“What sheepdip means to say is “I don’t like watching my Atheist Parents fight in public; it makes me feel like the Christian Kids At School have Better Families and they look down on me.” (These are understandable feelings when little kids feel them as regards an actual family. It’s not okay to carry over this childhood response to every other public dispute between “big people” that happens later in life. Some fights really should be public, because we are trying to publicly change the culture.)”
“sheepdip” says: Quite the contrary. I advocate letting the man stay in Free Thought Blogs and fight the issue out in public.
In this community.
Why not? I hardly think TF is beyond the power of reason. Is that what you really think?
He feels the threatening and hostile actions towards women during atheist and skeptical conferences is overblown and no more reflective on its attendants than it is towards the general republic at large. He’s not advocating boorish behaviour is he? Maybe he got defensive when called on it. Maybe he didn’t handle it well. So?
He deserved to be here before because he has contributed so much to this community in the past, now he’s persona non grata. I don’t get this. Was he out and out hateful or something?
I’ll take links, elucidate me.
That’s ’cause the gist wasn’t originally there. ;)
And I noticed that only after posting, so I hastily fixed it.
My bad, actually. — Your initial reading was an obvious one.
Go fuck yourself.
Blockquote! Fucking use them fuckface!
A link for you, asshole!
NOOOOOO.
You did in fact say not to fight in public.
“Get on the phone all of you. Talk. Work it out and then come back to exemplify our ideals. All of you are better than this.”
LYING PIECE OF SHIT.
Nothing at all hateful telling women that their concerns are no big deal. Fucking assclown.
As you cannot be bothered to speak from a position of knowledge and prefer to wallow in your ignorance as if that were something to be proud of, you can fuck right off.
pssst WMD kitty. If you click the older comments link above the leave a reply box you can see the first 500 comments.
Poseur:
<snicker>
Caine, the asshat already knows that ThunderingFool dismisses what women have to say about harassment. He said so himself. One of the few facts he actually had.
But ThunderingFool is a .
cheaptricksheeptick:What in the high holy hell is this shit?
Yes. Dismissing women’s concerns as being a killjoy is a pretty fucking hateful thing to do.
Do you know how to Google? Can’t you look this shit up yourself or are you totally incapable of performing the simplest tasks?
“reflective towards the general republic at large” =/= “overblown”
And that is the point.
WMDKitty, previous comments on another page, see older comments at bottom of comments.
Really wish that could be at top of comments too.
in the short term? definitely beyond reasoning with. in the long term? who the fuck knows, but I don’t feel like dealing with him for the years it might take him to stop being Holden Caulfield
[meta]
Audley, Janine has already summarised the tick’s plea:
(Case closed, apparently)
Janine:
I’m sure he is as long as you’re another guy or a chill girl willing to offer up a leg.
sheeptick
It might be time for you to go seek an education on the matter. I would suggest a decent starting point is Thunderf00ts original post. If you can’t find it, one of his latest videos is him reading it. Next you can read various FTBlogger’s posts in reply. Read up on the comments. Visit any Feminist 101 links that pop up in the comments.
Don’t ask in this thread for someone to hold your hand on this because from what I’ve seen in the past most people don’t have the patience nor should they.
Audley, don’t do that. I love Cheap Trick.
1)”so much”? he did one good series on creationists. then, when he veered into other topics, he stopped being good at it, as the anti-muslim videos show.
2)yes, minimizing women’s experiences with harassment is harmful. what does it matter whether something harmful is accompanied by some negative emotion like hate, though?
That’s unclear at best. The answer appears to be yes; he does not seem to be clear on the concept of consent.
So atheist women shouldn’t have to put up with this. It’s not anyone’s job to make TF’s head right, except that it’s TF’s job.
He doesn’t get to start by deliberately trolling,
he doesn’t get to waste the time of people who need this issue handled right — that’d be women — while he who can walk away at any time,* sucks up all the time and energy of those who are already an less privileged class.
That whole arrangement, where the less privileged are expected to do all the work for the more privileged — that is oppression in itself.
*I’ve given you that link several times now. Demonstrate to me that you’ve read it. You say “I’ll take links, elucidate me.” Well then prove it, sheepdip. Show me that you can learn things.
His double-down, triple-down, and quadruple-down follow-up blog posts, and his continuing inexcusable behavior on his youtube posts, certainly suggest so.
That depends on whether or not you think deliberately engaging in boorish behavior, which his blog posts on this subject (which was the ONLY THING he blogged about at all while he was here) certainly were, count as “advocating”.
Yes he was. And still is.
John:
Oh yes! The plea that Thunderf00t is some sort of awesome d00d. So convincing.
*eyeroll*
Well, gee, why would we think that TF is “beyond the power of reason” on this particular issue? Could it possibly be that all attempts to reason with him on this issue failed? Could it be his complete unwillingness to really address the points his opponents made or engage in any sort of dialogue?
FTB didn’t kick him out after his first spluttering rant on harassment policies. Nor his second one. People tried to reason with him. People tried to reason with him in this community.
But Thunderf00t just dug himself in deeper and deeper. Both commenters and bloggers at FTB tried to engage him in a reasonable discussion. Yet he refused to participate.
Too stupid for words.
Comment by sheeptick blocked. [unkill][show comment]
Sorry, Janine.
*scuffs toe in dirt*
Tinjoe:
Strange antics of interpretive dance and vocalisation he must have performed, to accurately reflect the post’s use of ALLCAPS and various other n00bie’s efforts at emphasis and rhetoric. ;)
(Cargo-cult blogging, it was)
Help, I’ve fallen in a vat of irony and I can’t get up.
Our ideals are not Thunderfoot’s ideals.
So there is nothing else to discuss.
“Banned him from being able to reply”? What fantasy universe are you living in?
He has not been banned from commenting anywhere on FtB to my knowledge. He can reply in the comment threads as much as he wants.
He is fully free and able to reply (and has) whenever he wants by all the other channels he has available to him. Such as his continuing series of pathetic and hateful youtube videos.
Drbunsen, I will suggest that you seek the services of First Alert.
It’s still right here:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/thunderf00t/2012/06/25/misogynist/
sheeptick:
At first I thought he wasn’t given enough of a chance, simply because the act of inviting him in the first place implied some commitment to try to make it work. He was here for such a short period of time.
I was wrong.
I made the false assumption that he was kicked out just because of the quality of his writing. Later, I found out that wasn’t the case. It was also clear from the announcement. So, I should have known better.
In the end, it is absolutely inappropriate of anyone else to force the admin of FtB to work with someone they simply do not want to work with.
Making the assumption that they made the decision to ask him to leave cavalierly is insulting. Unless you have as much information as they do and are also forced to live with the decision (either way) as they are…
Well, it really is none of our business.
Also, because I’m feeling fucking charitable and Googling shit for people that don’t deserve it: blockquote.
Thank You! I just waded in here today and have always loved the views and wit of all involved. It just strikes me odd that TF is an awful person. We’ll see.
Fucking moron.
That e-mail was so full of stupid, I need to wash my brain.
Bless your heart.
Comment by sheeptick blocked. [unkill][show comment]
I just don’t fucking care anymore.
Thank you for acknowledging this. The sniffy, disdainful reactions ex nihilo are really fucking irritating.
They haven’t been valid points due to ignorance, and you know that. You deliberately lie if you think otherwise. And why bother? You aren’t succeeding in helping TF. Only he can do that, and you need to work on him, not us. Since you don’t know what happened, time to shut the fuck up, as you have nothing to say. And you know that, but are too stubborn and too much of an MRA to take advice.
You do realize, fuckwit, that most inveterate racists are perfectly affable in person (especially if you’re not a person of color), love their mothers, don’t kick puppies, and enjoy eating a nice piece of apple pie now and then. Doesn’t mean their views on race aren’t poisonous and vile.
What exactly is your fuckwitted definition of a “great guy”, anyway?
I Don’t Care Anymore
He had a few worthwhile solo songs.
@Janine
Thank you.
Ugh, Phil Collins. Official Margarine of White Dood Chamber Music.
Regardless of his awfulness (yes he is a terrible person, but still, I’m willing to set this aside and discuss something else)
regardless of his awfulness, he behaved with profound intellectual dishonesty here, of a degree which skeptics should not countenance.
Read his initial post, read the responses — Greta’s has been linked for you already — and then read the shit that he continued to post. Even if we disregarded his inability to write, and even if we disregarded his overt sexism and warmongering, we should not put up with such intellectual laziness and dishonesty.
Phil Collins kind of creeps me out, to be honest.
Yeah, Phil Collins is douchey in that. . .Elton John kinda way. You know what I mean.
Josh, I will enjoy a few of his early solo songs. And nothing after Take A Look At Me Now. And I will main anyone who plays Sussudio.
They both give me the creeps!
@ Jim #19
That would be Flock of Dodos.
If the film did such a good job of presenting the creationists in a positive light, why did the Discovery Institute repudiate the film? It appears that it was pro-evolution and that you seem to have fastened onto only a small part of the documentary.
That would be maim.
Just because someone is good at one thing and you like him for that doesn’t mean he’s not a complete asshole in other ways.
Let us not forget Billy Joel when it comes to creepy.
Oh, so right Janine. I (shudder) actually bought his An Innocent Man LP with my paper route money. The fuck?
@Cipher (#593) — AH! Okay, I haz a dumb today.
@Tethys, Ariaflame (#s 603 & 608, respectively) — Thank you!
I know. I had a copy of Glass Houses.
You may be right…
@sheeptick #52
Now I don’t know your friends, and have no idea what the issue was that created the problem, but it seems to me that your friends were completely wrong. You should have treated them differently and that is something you should think about.
/sarcasm off
I don’t get it. Virtually every thunderf00t defender has the same completely wrong idea about what freedom of speech actually means. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean someone is required to provide a podium and audience for your speech. It doesn’t mean private parties you have a relationship with are prohibited from ending their relationship (i.e. employment) with you as a consequence of your speech. It doesn’t mean you can say whatever the hell you want with no one ever calling you out on it.
None of this is new, of course, but I just can’t help but wonder where these stupid ideas came from.
A guy I know says he comes from “Allentown, as advertised by Billy Joel.”
Eeeeeeeheheheheee!
ahhh
heh
whew
@Chitching
http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/
#8
Phil Collins did play drums on this.
And on this.
He was a damned powerful drummer.
@ Caine, Panthera Susurratrix #94
AHA! You are truly evil! The poor fellow. You must whisper again and let him go back whence he came. If they’ll have him of course.
There you go waving that incredulity around like a bad fart.
I agree that it’s odd how awful he is.
Phil Collins also plays drums on this.
Speaking of Phil Collins and creepy.
Lyn M:
But the Jaguars of Doom™ are hungry! Famished, even!
Rev. BDC:
+8
@ Caine, Panthera Susurratrix #163
Ooo, good point about the famished thing. Must rethink.
… Just wondering, has he been tested for toxins? Jaguars of Doom™ are pretty rare.
To quote DDFMM, thread won!
Shit, I think I’m almost caught up with this thread.
What the fuck is with these waterhead tone trolls? I always feel like some stranger has wandered into my house and started telling me how the furniture is all wrong and needs to be moved. I start to ask “who the fuck are you?” but before the words get out the jerk has started pulling the couch away from the wall and is castigating me for not helping him.
So I had this dream about a year or so ago, where I’m standing on the rooftop of some building, two or three stories high, overlooking a parking lot. Over to the left is some kind of community center, and from inside I hear music–Billy Joel songs. It’s a Billy Joel concert.
Then the music stops, the door opens, and out walks–Billy Joel. He steps out into the parking lot, looks around, and turns to go back inside. But the door is locked and he can’t get in.
Then I look at the rooftop I’m standing on and notice there’s several inches of snow around me. And a lightbulb goes on in my head and I think…”I CAN THROW SNOWBALLS AT BILLY JOEL!” It’s an exciting prospect, one of those once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.
My third throw hits him squarely between the shoulders, and I’m then treated to a slow-motion, zoom-in shot of the impact.
Cipher- Thank you, that was interesting. I’m not sure I’m totally convinced by it; it seems like ‘Phil’ has managed to control the conversation to some extent, since we’re talking about him and thunderfoot instead of squid or something. But I guess it’s true we can’t know his motivation and he’s probably getting plenty of reinforcement from his buddies anyway.
One thing PZ could do (which he’s probably thought of himself already) is report ‘Phil’ to his email provider.
Audley- If you enjoy dealing with trolls, then fine, have fun. I don’t have much patience for this kind of thing. I doubt anyone who would send an email like that would be capable of understanding or caring why wishing rape on people is wrong. I think they know and chose to do it anyway. What can you say about someone like that?
John- I hope you’re right. I hope PZ is enjoying his conference and doesn’t give this asshole another second’s thought.
I think I’ll just stop reading this thread.
This may be somewhat off-topic, but I think it’s interesting, so enjoy if you can. It’s funny that Mr. Krstulich invokes Socrates as someone who got a raw deal. It turns out that Socrates probably was justifiably tried and executed. He likely wasn’t tried on trumped-up “corrupting the youth” charges as commonly believed. It appears that he was an important factor in establishing the worst, most brutal dictatorships in Athenian history. The “impressive speeches” Krstulich refers to are likely the imaginings of a master propagandist (Plato) who was trying to cast his mentor and hero in the most positive light possible.
Read the story, as told in an interview with I.F. Stone at http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/socrates/ifstoneinterview.html. I.F. Stone was a legendary investigative journalist who worked almost exclusively by poring over official government documents to suss out the secrets that they inadvertently tell.
[applied meta]
To recapitulate the OP:
(So much chatter about the first, so little about the second)
Hi all!
As one of the angry rabble, and as a long-term (but very occasional and somewhat timid) SharkTank Diver (TM), I’d have to say it’s been really educational watching what’s happened here over the past few weeks.
As something of an individualist, I don’t necessarily agree with everything the bloggers here (or anywhere else I lurk) say, or even imply, PeeZed and Mr F00t included. I *did* enjoy the comments, mostly, especially when I saw so many people saying so many things I’d like to have said, except they were saying them using far fewer words – and were far funnier – than I could ever be.
Having said that, I should probably just shut the fuck up… But I’ve worn the Underdog cape and sandals for so long, I just can’t help myself.
See, the thing is… I’m unconscionably pleased that there *are* other places on the internet for voices to be heard, apart from the voices here on the FTBs. (Wooo! What a zinger! Take *that*! And *that*!)
Reading through all the comments here over the past few months has made me realise that this particular blog is no longer a place for free speech, or, what’s worse, free thought, on a variety of subjects and concepts. (Luckily not science though, which will always keep me coming back for more! I just don’t need to read the comments…)
It doesn’t matter a fart in a firestorm, really, to anyone else. But I’m no longer capable of contributing anything positive (in terms of the subjects discussed here), and I’m not learning anything new from what used to be a fantastic bunch of the sharpest and funniest minds I ever found, so it’s no great loss to anyone else, PZ or no. I know that, and I really wish I could’a said all this as cleverly and succinctly as you guys can!
But the fact that I really don’t like the atmosphere here anymore really sucks. (Only to me, obviously!) But it just feels wrong that the sharpest and healthiest blog community in my little book of learning tools has become… well, what it’s become.
Thanks for the fun, everyone, it was a great time for me, and I really appreciated the fire, the wit, and the compassion.
I won’t let the door hit me on the arse on my way out. Apologies, as always, for the digital diarrrhoea.
Cheers,
Pete in Aus.
FFS
Are all you people really this fucking goddamn stupid?
You know what. i quit. This is it. Straw. Pack animal. Back. Broken. I am done with this skeptical bullshit.
A schism or even a complete collapse would be the best fucking thing to happen to skepticism as far as I’m concerned. These people are so dumb that I do not want to be associated with them.
All over the idea that we treat people decently. This is un-be-fucking-leavable. There is nothing worth salvaging in this subculture.
This is crazy. I just read the entirety of TF’s blog on Free Thought Blogs and he’s not not out of his mind. He made some good points. Essentially he found sexual harassment a minor issue and the code of behaviour issued from the Skepchicks to be insulting and futile. The threats towards Rebecca Watson from the internet to be idle. Welcome to the fray seems to his response. Seems like he’s used to it. How many rape threats she received surely compares to the death threats he’s had. Eh, PZ?
Dismissive yes. Arrogant yes. But you jerks dogpiled him and had a hand in this. This man is no enemy to brother or sister here. (Yes, I know “brother” and “sister” and other words like “fellowship” are laden but this is indeed how I feel towards all of you.)
I regret defending his dismissive and combative attitude but the essential point that these conferences are safe and enjoyable for women is valid, if not entirely. But for goodness’ sake what happens in bars amongst drunk people surely cannot be laid at the doorstep of conference goers.
His failing is a focus on making points as he sees them, and a lack of expressing empathetic regard for the real perceptions and experiences within the community. Gawd almighty, tough shit.
I got a lot of vituperative insults for defending someone I innocently thought a good person by you people. And honestly I felt you attacked one you saw as ignorant rather than explain. No problem. I never wrote anything awful. You did. Being offended and feeling the need to attack people you think stupider/lesser than you is pretty fucking rotten.
PS. I personally endorse a fair and respectful code of conduct, ANYWHERE(!)
Except here. Right?
I’ve noticed that. The flak she’s getting is just unbelievable; I can’t really wrap my head around it.
[meta]
Pete in Aus.:
You’ve reached your limit, you congratulate yourself, and you wish you could be succint.
(why do you imagine anyone would care?)
You talk the talk, can you walk the walk?
sheeptick:
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/25/so-much-wrong-part-1-thunderf00t-and-sexual-harassment/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/26/so-much-wrong-part-2-thunderf00t-and-sexual-harassment/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/27/so-much-wrong-part-3-thunderf00t-and-sexual-harassment/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/28/so-much-wrong-part-4-thunderf00t-and-sexual-harassment/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/29/so-much-wrong-part-5-thunderf00t-and-sexual-harassment/
Yeah, if skepticism is the Thunderf00t racist/sexist privileged fanboi movement then I’m out. Y’all can have it.
I’m a humanist. Fuck y’all.
[meta]
sheeptick @172, your puling is cringe-worthy.
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
Yup.
(Shitty being you, no?)
Dear sheeptick,
Okay, please listen. Here is where you are going wrong.
1. Stating opinions about a situation you admit you don’t know about. Can you really not see how ridiculous that is?
2. If you are going to quote, USE BLOCKQUOTE. I personally agree with Dr. Audrey: if you can’t be bothered to learn this simple bit of formatting, I can’t be bothered to read what you have to say.
One more thing. You really need to get out of the habit of using big words. Half the time, it is clear you don’t know what they mean. Once or twice might be typos or over-enthusiastic auto-correction software, but your posts are full of inaccurate word choices. Stick to simple words. You can still be quite eloquent. Look up words. For instance
Does not actually make any sense at all. I THINK you meant “I won’t shut up because you say so.”. See, simple words, expressing a thought. No big words to get completely wrong.
Anyway, you’ve gotten off to a very bad start, but if you actually learn from your mistakes… Who knows what could happen?
That’s cool, Seabisquick. Thanks for the link.
@bannedatheist:
I agree with all of this, bannedatheist, except for your insistence that Pharyngula should adopt DU’s standards, if I’m not misunderstanding your argument.
I understand that you see a different kind and level of discourse at DU, and I appreciate that. As you say, they banned you from calling a bigot a bigot*, and probably much worse than that in real life. So real life is not DU, and neither is Pharyngula. Here the discourse might not be up to the certain standards of DU, but you can call a bigot a bigot. Something may be lost, but something is surely gained?
That may be my public health bias talking, but social interaction is multifaceted and complex.
*You seem somewhat proud of being banned for that. I don’t see anything wrong with that. You also seem to have come around to see the value in their policy. That’s great too. Would you see the value in having one type of discussion with certain rules at DU, and another type of conversation with different rules on Pharyngula?
Obviously none of these fucking assholes clicked the link to Anita Sarkeesian’s story, or else they wouldn’t be crapping all over the thread about how Thunderf00t is so fucking right that sexism and harassment is just NO BIG FUCKING DEAL.
I don’t know how to express my anger. It runs deep.
[meta]
sheeptick:
You regret it but nonetheless you had an essential point which was valid if not entirely.
(Piteous prevarication is pitifully pathetic)
Wait. Did bannedatheist actually stick the flounce? Wow. Didn’t see that coming.
ॐ, chance sheeptick will read those?
And get it?
sheepdip,
you didn’t read his critics, though, did you.
So you really aren’t understanding why we’re bothered.
“I don’t get it. Virtually every thunderf00t defender has the same completely wrong idea about what freedom of speech actually means. Freedom of speech doesn’t mean someone is required to provide a podium and audience for your speech. It doesn’t mean private parties you have a relationship with are prohibited from ending their relationship (i.e. employment) with you as a consequence of your speech. It doesn’t mean you can say whatever the hell you want with no one ever calling you out on it.
None of this is new, of course, but I just can’t help but wonder where these stupid ideas came from.”
Fine, don’t invite people in, dismiss them a week or two later and call you place Free Thought Blogs. It tarnishes the reputation of the endeavor. And it has.
So, quick poll: which one of you fuckwits actually read the New Statesman article about Anita Sarkeesian?
Silence will be taken as a “no” which means you’re talking out of your fucking ass and don’t deserve to have anything you say taken seriously.
Small.
However my addressing that to sheepdip was but a convenient facade: I was just going to use this thread to start collecting all the responses to TF.
And then I’m going to think about linking them all on the wiki. If this is going to be an ongoing boondoggle then it’d be nice to have a handy set of public bookmarks.
Here’s the link from the OP about Anita Sarkeesian.
There are in fact several articles about her since what happened to her was so fucking egregiously and obviously sexist.
But, you know, sexism ISN’T A PROBLEM, IT’S NOT A BIG DEAL, IT WOULD BE BETTER IF WE JUST STOPPED TALKING ABOUT IT.
That’s Chunderf00t’s ever-so-reasonable “position.”
sheeptick,
There really isn’t a lot to explain, except that one of the things that seems to have gone under the radar is that Thunderf00t broke one of the basic rules of conversation on Freethought Blogs: that assertions need to be backed up with credible evidence. The other basic rule is to engage in the argument. TF made no sign that he was even listening.
Freethought doesn’t mean freedom of thought or freedom of expression. It refers to a philosophical viewpoint that, as wikipedia puts it, holds opinions should be formed on the basis of science, logic, and reason, and should not be influenced by authority, tradition, or other dogmas. TF just basically said sexism isn’t a problem he said so. Any evidence he presented was laughable. It was an argument by authority, which he of all people ought to have known better than to make.
sheepdip,
Freethought
“Not to be confused with Freedom of thought“
+++++
Freedom of thought
“It is different from and not to be confused with the concept of freedom of speech or expression.”
Ing, 171:
I think I’m there. Other than the personal friendships I have with people here, I don’t really have much in common with the community of skeptics.
Ironically, despite the claims of humorless feminism, it’s the slymepit.com (ha-ha, aren’t we brave?) type of people I find that aren’t funny. Rather, their humor is common. I can hear sexist “there’s the kitchen” Star Wars jokes anywhere (I mean, literfuckingally anywhere because the goddamn internet). I don’t need my boring stereotypes served with an attitude because they happen to use the names of logical fallacies in arguments with people who think Jesus wrassled unicorns on Wednesdays.
You keep on showing your ass. Thunderfoot tarnished his own reputation. FTB preserved theirs by kicking him the fuck out.
“Freethought” doesn’t mean we have to give a fair listen to every stupid idea out there. Women are people and should be listened to. That premise is not up for debate. If you think it is, you’re a misogynist. Thunderfoot apparently thinks it is. Ergo, he doesn’t belong on FreeThoughtBlogs.
If FTB weren’t fucking awesome you wouldn’t be complaining about your hero getting booted. Heh.
That article contained one of the most triggering lines of text I’ve seen in a while, and the only reason I was able to get that far before being too nauseous to continue was that she blurred out the image it was describing. I have never been so glad to be a low-profile, pseudonymous commenter as I am right now, and I am fucking sick that callous pieces of shit like the ones who harass her exist.
I was kinda trying to ignore it because the thread was funny, but yeah. It’s horrible.
So, Sheeptick, did you read the fucking article about Anita Sarkeesian?
That sucks, Cipher. *hugs*
Making difficult decisions tarnishes the reputation of the endeavor?
Has anyone claimed the website “Stepford Atheism” yet? Because I think I’ve found the solution to this issue.
sheeptick:
<snicker>
What tarnishes it for you and your ilk polishes it for us and our ilk; also, a week is a long time in the blogosphere.
—
PS: Any reply to SamStrange’s question?
Did you “actually read the New Statesman article about Anita Sarkeesian?“, or are you merely concerned with your object of admiration, the thunderpod?
Oh, wah.
You came in here, admitted you didn’t know shit about what was going on, and started issuing orders, then demanded that we educate you because you are apparently completely fucking helpless and can’t educate yourself. It’s not our job to fucking spoonfeed you. But go read the link I provided at 99 in its entirety, as well as those provided by ixchel at 175.
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/07/06/i-get-email-20/comment-page-2/#comment-388753
http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/07/06/i-get-email-20/comment-page-2/#comment-388763
also http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/07/06/i-get-email-20/comment-page-2/#comment-388803
So atheist women shouldn’t have to put up with this. It’s not anyone’s job to make TF’s head right, except that it’s TF’s job.
He doesn’t get to start by deliberately trolling,
he doesn’t get to waste the time of people who need this issue handled right — that’d be women — while he who can walk away at any time,* sucks up all the time and energy of those who are already an less privileged class.
That whole arrangement, where the less privileged are expected to do all the work for the more privileged — that is oppression in itself.
*I’ve given you that link several times now. Demonstrate to me that you’ve read it. You say “I’ll take links, elucidate me.” Well then prove it, sheepdip. Show me that you can learn things.
“ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ
6 July 2012 at 8:49 pm
Keep in mind he’s not advocating rotten behavior towards women but rather that it’s not a big problem.
Since he’s wrong about that, his argument contributes to making the world a worse place for women. Just like if he were minimizing the problem of racism, it would make the world worse for people of color.
As such, we don’t consider him to be a great guy.”
I see your point.
Answer the fucking question, Sheeptick.
Goddamn. I better get on my bike before I go all apeshit up in here. Later homies.
Aww Sam. *hug back* Thanks. Have fun.
Sam Strange:
Same here. ““. Yeah, no problem there at all. (And that’s one of the polite, civil ones.)
Colour me out of the skeptic’s club too. Anything so stuffed with people who are hostile to me simply because I’m female is not something I’m interested in being part of at all. As it stands now, if you’re aren’t a chill girl™ you simply aren’t welcome.
Cephas Borg / Pete in Aus.,
I cannot find any reading of this statement which does not translate as “people should be able to say whatever they want and nobody should ever be told to fuck off.”
What do you think freedom of speech is supposed to mean? All I can parse is that you are a liar or a dumbshit who does not care to think clearly about what the fuck free speech actually means.
Apparently you believe it means freedom from harsh criticism. Prove me wrong.
<blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote>
=
Easy.
You can even copypaste the <blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote> stuff
From the New Statesman article, which apparently, little fanbois of Tfoot just can’t manage to read:
This ^ is what we have been fighting, steadily, for a long damn time already. The proof is littered all over the damn ‘net that this happens. How about you fanbois discuss this for a change?
I wish somehow the fuckheads could be forced to take a vacation from their infestation efforts, and that the rest of us could somehow go on a month’s sabbatical to recuperate our sanity. Good god but I’m feeling beat up and I know I don’t have it even half as bad as the women.
I know it’s been said before, but I feel the need to say it again: Saying “you should get a sense of humor” does not absolve you of being a complete and utter asshat.
Those who are discussing the OP will know what my quotation references and its originator.
more responses to thunderfoot
http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2012/06/26/putting-your-thunderfoot-in-it/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2012/06/gotta-disagree-with-you-here-thunderf00t/
http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/2012/07/04/the-inner-badgers-live-reaction-to-thunderf00ts-video-about-harassment-policies-ftbullies/
If anything hurt FTB’s rep it was the poor decision making in giving TF his blog and revoking it in what many saw as a probably or inevitable result from day one. Hopefully it was a wake up call on being more discriminating (feel free to quote mine that assholes) in the selection process.
sheeptick:
Fine, don’t invite people in, dismiss them a week or two later and call you place Free Thought Blogs. It tarnishes the reputation of the endeavor. And it has.
What tarnishes it for you and your ilk polishes it for us and our ilk; also, a week is a long time in the blogosphere.
–
PS: Any reply to SamStrange’s question?
Did you “actually read the New Statesman article about Anita Sarkeesian?“, or are you merely concerned with your object of admiration, the thunderpod?
I just read the New Statesman article and it’s deplorable. What would make you think I would feel otherwise? I was merely describing a lack of empathy towards Rebecca Watson (who I admire a great deal) on thunderF00t’s behalf because of the abuse he must suffer because of his own public profile. He feels it’s a rough and tumble world on the internet and one will get these attacks. Men most likely death threats, women the same plus sexual abuse. He discounts them as idle trollish behaviour by impotent men (or women, we can’t know really)
Also hopefully it was a lesson that spoken oration and video editing =/= prose skill.
Sheeptick, the link at 99 describes your behavior beautifully. Go. The fuck. Away.
Jesus Christ. . you can’t even manage to fucking set off your quotes, sheep.
GO FUCK YOURSELF UNTIL YOU CAN ACT LIKE A HUMAN BEING.
You don’t deserve the attention of anyone here.
@Sheeptrick
FFS, LEARN TO QUOTE. THE CODE HAS BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU AND IS PROVIDED ABOVE YOUR WINDOW.
You’re current formatting is incredibly unaccommodating to everyone.
sheeptick:
o.O
≠
=
≠
There are a great many people who have suffered that sort of bullshit, yet manage to not act like fucking callous idiots who dismiss other people’s lives.
….
uuuuuuuuum.
ING HAS CRASHED PLEASE REBOOT
Not listening at all after that.
See a decent person if they got such bullshit might be empathetic enough not to shit on someone else.
Excuse me while I prick my cat’s ear to test her blood sugar, a more pleasant task than reading this thread.
[meta]
Shift-comma (left angle bracket) then ‘b’ ‘l’ ‘o’ ‘c’ ‘k’ ‘q’ ‘u’ ‘o’ ‘t’ ‘e’ then shift-fullstop (right angle bracket)and then the pasting of the quotation and then shift-comma ‘/’ then ‘b’ ‘l’ ‘o’ ‘c’ ‘k’ ‘q’ ‘u’ ‘o’ ‘t’ ‘e’ then shift-fullstop is too elite a technique for some, apparently.
(F33zum Я l33tz!)
Yes I too shall look for a more pleasent task to distract myself. Oh look! It’s been months since I sandpapered my genitals and dipped them in lemon juice! I should get on that!
“We have similar difficulties only you also have a completely different set of difficulties. Suck it the fuck up bitch; the most important issue in my life is that I be able to gnaw on a woman’s leg without asking her first. I mean, yeah, I know rape and harassment are bad ‘n’ all, but did you see this picture of me having fun? Surely we can all agree that this picture represents the most important issue we all face.”
Sheeptick, please use some of the links here at this post to learn how to format text effectively in HTML for ease of reading. I can’t be the only one who routinely killfiles commentors who can’t/won’t learn how to do this.
May I suggest you indulge your desire to engage in the purchasing of many cloth funnels, some you can’t even spare the expense for.
That’s what you can do.
i”xchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ”
this is an excerpt from one you proffer. Crommunist.
“Here’s a weird factoid factlet (Matt Penfold has rightly pointed out that I am using the word ‘factoid’ incorrectly) that might blow TF’s mind: bars actually do have sexual harassment policies. However, when they (we) enforce those policies, they often take the form of punches in the face and getting your ass dragged outside by a bunch of ‘roid-swollen malcontents who’ve been watching your drunk ass try to inappropriately touch that woman under her dress for the last half hour and are really excited to fight.”
First of all this is not representative, I hope, of this blogger and lord (note the small “l”) knows he has a point to make here but you linking to this makes me wonder? Have you read all the arguments? Are you fully in command here?
Laugh Out Loud.
Zinnia Jones, who I very much like, makes a great yet, not broad, argument doesn’t she? It’s about the nature of the “straw poll” and how “straw polls” don’t amount to much. Which is very true. I agree. This was a stupid thing to TF to do.
With you so far.
FUCK YOU SHEEP. LEARN TO QUOTE OR NO ONE WILL READ YOUR COMMENTS. BE A HUMAN BEING
“Sheeptick, please use some of the links here at this post to learn how to format text effectively in HTML for ease of reading. I can’t be the only one who routinely killfiles commentors who can’t/won’t learn how to do this.”
Thank you I will learn this, just not tonight.
Your shtick is not funny anymore, shitstain.
Shut the fuck up.
I’d agree that inviting someone and kicking them off a week and a half later looks bad, but the problem is with the first part, not the second part. Was anyone familiar with his oeuvre and FTB surprised at how this turned out?
CHRIST. FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING OBNOXIOUS LITTLE TWIT.
NO ONE WILL READ OR COMMENT ON YOUR POSTS UNTIL YOU LEARN TO BLOCKQUOTE SHEEP. FUCK OFF AND DIE UNTIL THEN.
because I am a huge douchebag and I hope no one can understand what I say so I can lie about it later.
!!!I NEVER SAID THAT!!!!
Well that lack of empathy makes him something other than a great guy.
Expecting women to deal with threats of sexual abuse without complaining — that is in practice siding with the oppressors, because that’s exactly what the people who make threats of sexual abuse expect. They expect to be able to keep doing it and getting away with it forever and ever.
Instead of giving up in apathy, like Thunderfoot expects, we want to push as hard as we can and as fast as we can to change social expectations — however slightly, because every little bit helps.
Those people who suggest we stop pushing, they are dead weight at best, and they become enemies when they try hard enough. Thunderfoot has been pushing against us instead of pushing against those who make threats of sexual violence, or at least getting out of the way.
If he would get the fuck out of the way and go back to making anti-creationist videos and otherwise being socially useless, then he would at least not be an enemy. But he has chosen to be a reactionary conservative on this issue, so now we have to fight him too; that makes more work for people who he sometimes vaguely claims to be in general agreement-about-goals with. Well, if he’s really in vague agreement-about-goals, then he could at least quit pushing against us and stop making more work for us.
@ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ #238
But but but but … some might think that means maybe he was, like, not totes cool!!
<blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote>
=
Easy.
You can even copypaste this
<blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote>
and paste your quote in place of “paste quote here”.
Dude it is really easy. Don’t worry about the other stuff anybody linked. Just do what chigau said:
+++++
<blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote>
=
Easy.
You can even copypaste the <blockquote>paste quote here</blockquote> stuff
+++++
That’s all there is to it! So easy.
If you keep commenting without using the blockquote method, then I am going to have to be very unkind to you. It would not be fair to others here for me to keep engaging you as politely as I have been — it appears I have been inadvertently reinforcing your rude disregard for others here.
I’m going to bed.
Fuck off, pisscake. Let me tell you something – a family member started raping me when I was three years old. It went on for 6 damn years. I had a mother who was convinced I’d be schizophrenic, like my father, so she started having me locked up on a whim, starting when I was seven years old. It got worse from there.
I have empathy for other people, especially those who are being harassed and threatened on a daily basis for simply having the fucking nerve to speak out while being female.
Just for speaking out here at Pharyngula, I’ve received threats via email, I’ve been harassed, had nasty ass blog posts written about me, etc. I haven’t run out of empathy. Or brains.
You dare to bring up the minor shit Tfoot has gotten on yootube? There isn’t enough fuck in the universe to tell you to fuck off with.
Okay. Good to know that you didn’t what was written about this topic over on Crommunist. Mind you, I’m not entirely sure why this is. You just quoted a section and completely failed to provide any actual criticism of the points he made.
And even if you don’t like what was written on Crommunist, what about what Greta Christina wrote? Are you actually going to address anything of substance here?
No, xe’s Just Saying that TF is a great guy and it’s our job to convince hir away from that view and not hir job to actually learn shit. Because xe’s Just Saying.
I’m gonna learn this HTML shit I promise. If i ever decide to come back. Ha Fuck.
Yes he’s probably less than a great guy but are you really better? Are you out there 24/7 putting yourself out fighting dipshit christians? (or people like me?) And making a dent? He really is. He’s a great fucking guy, maybe he needs his conscience expanded about sexually inequality. Good he’s ripe. Fucker already pledges the allegiance to alter of rationalism.
But to me TF means something. He’s fought for both of us. If that sounds trite to you then, well, fuck you. Sorry but fuck you.
“If he would get the fuck out of the way and go back to making anti-creationist videos and otherwise being socially useless, then he would at least not be an enemy. But he has chosen to be a reactionary conservative on this issue, so now we have to fight him too; that makes more work for people who he sometimes vaguely claims to be in general agreement-about-goals with. Well, if he’s really in vague agreement-about-goals, then he could at least quit pushing against us and stop making more work for us.”
Yeah, I respect that. This guy is no reactionary conservative I think. On this issue, teeter. Maybe he got out too far ahead and now got his ass sawed off. I still like him and want everyone to get along. Better. Not perfect Better. : )
You don’t need to learn HTML. You already know how to copy-paste, and chigau has helpfully provided you will a special case of copy-paste that will make your comments less infuriating to read, or at least, infuriating in new ways.
This could not have been made easier for you.
John Morales says:
“Fuck off, pisscake. Let me tell you something – a family member started raping me when I was three years old. It went on for 6 damn years. I had a mother who was convinced I’d be schizophrenic, like my father, so she started having me locked up on a whim, starting when I was seven years old. It got worse from there.
I have empathy for other people, especially those who are being harassed and threatened on a daily basis for simply having the fucking nerve to speak out while being female.
Just for speaking out here at Pharyngula, I’ve received threats via email, I’ve been harassed, had nasty ass blog posts written about me, etc. I haven’t run out of empathy. Or brains.
You dare to bring up the minor shit Tfoot has gotten on yootube? There isn’t enough fuck in the universe to tell you to fuck off with.”
How dare you take a personal tragedy and fling it at innocent persons who you do not know as if they could possibly share the blame. Shame on you. I do not and could never condone what happened to you but empathy is EXACTLY the emotion I would like to get across.
All threats are awful. Epithets are a little less worse. Consider that.
QFFT.
I don’t visit as often as I would like and so often miss out on a lot here or get to it a bit late to add anything worthwhile that han’t already been said. However, the number of misogynistic maroons that have slithered out from under the shitheap since elevatorgate, and more recently over the thunderf00t in mouth debacle, has been truly sickening and sadly amazing and I am not easily amazed.
But, still, as a 60 year old man, who, while never a deliberate misogynist or sexist, admittedly still has to necessarily occasionally check against my own privilege, for which I thank many on this and allied blogs for educating me, I have found it profoundly dispiriting when I consider the responses of so many of my fellow men on these and other blogs over the last year or so. Worse, knowing that at least a significant fraction, if not most, are atheists, they don’t even have the excuse, however poor, of religion to fall back on as a reason for their toxic misogyny.
However, I can say that I do relish reading as well as learning from so many of you on here and across FTB, both bloggers and commenters, as you fight the good fight. For that I thank you one and all. It’s just a very great pity that in 2012, for FSM’s sake it’s the bloody 21st Century, we are still having to go through this crap. While I am mainly a cup half full type, the ignorance of so many, and yet displayed with apparently such obvious, and oblivious, pride, does tend to occasionally tip me over into a cup half empty frame. But, amongst all the crap, I can guarantee that more than a few of you will manage with your postings, especially when retorting to the many tone trolls and derailers that pop up so repeatedly, to have me ROTFLMAO and helping ‘top’ my cup up again.
For that I also offer a heartfelt thanks.
P.S. I followed the link to the SP blog, oh my, are they really from the same planet, let alone the same species, as the rest of us. I am not trying to dehumanise them, but oh, the concentrated toxic stupidity displayed with such gusto and obliviousness, I would hardly have believed it if I hadn’t read it for myself.
I was going to tell you precisely what an insensitive piece of shit you are for what you said above, but then you posted this.
You fucking pile of shit, get the fuck out of this thread. Don’t fucking come back. You don’t deserve a fucking second more from anyone here.
Shitstain, I hope you have a fucking care taker you reminds you to take a breath every so often.
Also, just fucking go away.
And have your care taker delete this blog from your computer’s memory.
You have failed utterly.
Skeptick, it’s way past the time when this would have been most useful, but nonetheless it’s never too late to learn The First Rule Of Holes.
What a self-centered, oblivious, shameless fucking monster. I didn’t think my opinion of the disgusting puddle of rank piss could go any lower, but jesus fucking christ.
I still can’t see any blockquotes in the little sheepshitstains posts. Either he’s trolling or too stupid and selfish to bother with.
It doesn’t matter which one, so I’m not going to try and find out.
<a href="
sheepshit, like I said, I can’t be polite to you unless you blockquote; it wouldn’t be fair to others here. So I hope you fuck off real soon now.
Yes. You are a worthless piece of shit.
Yes, they come through here all the time and we try to teach them. I hope you slip in the shower.
Yes. But again, we aren’t concerned just with atheism. We also teach people about sexism and racism, and in almost every such thread we get lurkers popping up to thank us for all they’ve learned over the years. You are a disappointment to your family.
Not our job to fix him, you FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT WHO WON’T LISTEN.
Atheist women shouldn’t have to put up with this. It’s not anyone’s job to make TF’s head right, except that it’s TF’s job.
He doesn’t get to start by deliberately trolling,
he doesn’t get to waste the time of people who need this issue handled right — that’d be women — while he who can walk away at any time,* sucks up all the time and energy of those who are already an less privileged class.
That whole arrangement, where the less privileged are expected to do all the work for the more privileged — that is oppression in itself.
*I’ve given you that link several times now. Demonstrate to me that you’ve read it. You say “I’ll take links, elucidate me.” Well then prove it, sheepdip. Show me that you can learn things YOU FUCKING USELESS SHEEP.
Wrong. That doesn’t make him any better at learning about sexism. You shitstain.
No, he’s never fought for me. And hey, that’s okay, I don’t need him to. I just don’t want him to stand in my way. Shut the fuck up and stop talking about things you are too stupid to ever understand, fuckbucket.
Yes he is. He is a misogynist and a genocidal warmonger. And you are a sycophantic toad.
Since we care about sexism, we aren’t going to look the other way about this. Why is this hard to understand, you goddamned duckwit?
It’s okay to want everyone to get along; it’s not okay to demand this from us instead of him. You are siding with sexism. If you care about sexism and you want him to learn then you should be lecturing him and not us. We’re not the ones who should change. He should change.
You are barking up the wrong tree. What you are doing is bad, and you should feel bad.
Read this: http://saltycurrent.blogspot.com/2012/06/note-to-those-who-say-they-oppose.html
You asshole.
O_o Holy shit, sheeptick, THAT is what you consider empathy? You made a claim about the source of Thunderfoot’s dismissiveness being abuse HE’D suffered. Caine was REFUTING YOU. And YOU dare try and shame her and dismiss her? Do only guys on the internet get the get-out-of-personal-shaming-free card in your world?
You just victim-blamed. You’re not fucking innocent anymore, if you ever were.
Also, fuckface, here is a little fucking clue for you.
Caine was almost murdered. It was not for lack of trying. That person seceded in murdering others.
HOW THE FUCK DOES HAVING NAMES TOSSED AT YOU EVEN COMES CLOSE?
You speak of empathy. You have none. You have shown that empathy is when people coddle your fucking pet peeves.
Fucking grow up, you fucking moral monster.
John Phillips, FCD, deflouncing momentarily to say Thank You! You’re one of the people who makes the fight better and provides strength.
*reflouncing*
@ Caine
And yes, I know I am quoting you sheeptick,
See, it’s all about him. I mean you had the nerve to point out, using a powerful example, that people can undergo great harm for many years, and yet manage to be real people who can care and feel and think and act. But because it is all about him, that example was “flinging” something at him, “an innocent”.
And of course, you neglected to understand that threats and epithets really sting, you know. I mean, really.
Thus, you are in the wrong yet again. Amazing how that works out, isn’t it? So instead of dealing with the reality, he had to turn on you and tell you off. Mmm-mmm-mmm.
Sheeptick, that was one immense fail you showed us all there.
And for the sake of others here, I think you should be told that there are even more histories among the people commenting that show that people can suffer horror, yet be brave and considerate. At any moment, they could throw something real at you as if it had relevance and made a point.
Try to get over it.
Oh, and how could you know? Because if you had read some of these threads before shooting off with your opinions, you would have seen some of these commenters speak up about what they have endured and survived. But reading, well, how does that work?
Oh, that’s easy now. Xe’s a fucking revolting monster who utterly lacks even a tattered shred of human decency. It takes a special kind of fucking evil to shame a rape survivor for daring to mention her rape to other people, but that is precisely what xe dared to do in this fucking thread. The only reason to bother with hir is to tell hir precisely how disgusting xe is, and precisely how hard to fuck off.
Oh hai everyone,
I haven’t been paying attention to any of this, but I have a very important opinion that I am certain noone else could possibly have said yet! It is this:
You all are meanies who use bad words and banning and censorship. Why are you so angry and mean when I am not aware of all the bad stuff those guys did, and therefore it didn’t happen, unless you all take the time to walk me personally through the entire backstory.
Also you are blockquotenazis. And you should change your comment policy to be like some random other blog that I just got banned from for violating their comment policy.
And don’t you dare going telling me about bad stuff that has happened to you! I didn’t do it, so why should I have to be aware of it?!
Worthless troll,
Uh, no, that’s not what happened.
Caine made a comparison; you said Thunderfoot gets abused; Caine showed why your characterization is offensive.
Shame on you for trying to shame Caine.
Again, if you want to make things better then stop bothering people here and go bother Thunderfoot.
If you care about sexism then you must recognize the difference between systematic group oppression, and interpersonal disputes. Women are an oppressed class. Vloggers are not. Thunderfoot being fired from FtB is not anything like being subjected to sexism. Sexism is a societal problem, in a way that Thunderfoot being fired is not. You are focusing on the wrong people here; you are making things worse instead of better; you are further contributing to the oppression of women by pushing against them here in their fight against sexism instead of at least getting out of the way.
You know how to stop. You should stop.
They, who she assigned do NOT SHARE any blame. NONE. IT is unfair and reprehensible to take a personal tragedy and use it to advantage in an objective argument. I have all the sympathy in the world for this woman but it makes me sick to think that her pain trumps REASON.
Get the fuck out of here.
You’ve shown yourself to be a despicable piece of shit. Fucking vile assholes like you are unwelcome around decent human beings. I don’t know or care what part of this you don’t get. Just go the fuck away.
Yes, that would have been unfair. Unfortunately for you, Caine didn’t do that.
and @C.C.Fuss
I was going to comment on your comment but in doing so I would have violated the New Coyote Rules so I won’t instead.
piece of sheep shit,
Uh, no, that’s not what happened.
Caine made a comparison; you said Thunderfoot gets abused; Caine showed why your characterization is offensive.
Shame on you for trying to shame Caine.
Again, if you want to make things better then stop bothering people here and go bother Thunderfoot.
If you care about sexism then you must recognize the difference between systematic group oppression, and interpersonal disputes. Women are an oppressed class. Vloggers are not. Thunderfoot being fired from FtB is not anything like being subjected to sexism. Sexism is a societal problem, in a way that Thunderfoot being fired is not. You are focusing on the wrong people here; you are making things worse instead of better; you are further contributing to the oppression of women by pushing against them here in their fight against sexism instead of at least getting out of the way.
You know how to stop. You should stop.
@ sheepshag
Sheeptick, if you had showed any REASON, then I suppose we would have to deal with that fake issue. But since you are avoiding the valid point she made, then I guess you are just a dumb troll after all the posturing. And that’s being kind.
This isn’t a debating society in which there are crappy little rules about logic and any other shit you think somehow defends you or makes what you said right in any context whatsoever. You blew it. You can’t think of any way out except to say she is wrong because she mentioned PERFECTLY RELEVANT FACTS that happened to be personal. You moron.
See, that was meant to be satire, but on rereading it’s more like a collection of Greatest Troll Hits From The Thread.
===
Seriously, though, that video ‘game’ in the linked New Statesman article. There are no words for that.
It’s seriously fucking awful to make threats of violence. But that game involves a realism in imagining inflicting violence that is a whole nother thing. The fact that some people think that is funny is just too sickening to think about for too long…
CC Fuss, prepare to be revolted. Read what sheepshagger said. And have a bucket handy.
Pile of fucking shit. Fucking read this and comprehend.
You tried to excuse the words of ThunderingFool by pointing out the “abuse” he suffer at our hands. Caine pointed out that she suffered real abuse and does not engage in the actions of TF, thus refuting your claim.
And now you whine about a real person pointing her real abuse, that it is somehow unfair to you.
You are not the reasonable one here. You are so fucking far from it that the actual use of reason confuses and confounds you.
Fucking go away.
Also, I would not be surprised that PZ, reading your reaction to Caine’s story, bans you. Not for the clusterfuck of stupity you dumped here. It will be showing yourself to be an inhumane oaf.
C. C. Fuss, normally, that kind of satire would be highly appreciated. You just happened to drop it off at the wrong time.
Things got really serious. I hope you understand.
And I apologize to morons. I used the term without thought.
I was kind of amused by the idea that TF (or anyone else) ‘deserved’ to be here… but then I got to the asshole being a complete piece of shit and I stopped being amused. Fuck off.
sheep shit,
Even though you are a liar who’s mischaracterized what Caine said,
by this standard, it was morally wrong of you to say:
By your own standard, you should not have mentioned any of this.
Obviously you are a terrible person, by your own standard and by ours. So whichever side is right, you are bad and you should feel bad.
What Janine said. Unfortunately, sheeptick is busily sucking all of the air out of the room with hir reprehensible behavior.
Explain why Thunderfoot’s death threats weren’t “personal tragedies” when YOU used them to excuse his dismissiveness of others. Explain why HIS pain doesn’t represent some sort of betrayal of reason. (You weren’t originally claiming it trumped reason; you were claiming it trumped empathy. Nice goalpost shift there.)
Then try and explain, if you can, why bad things happening to women, to Caine, to Anita Sarkeesian, to Rebecca Watson, to all the women catching massive shit on the internet and in person every day, somehow make THEM unreasonable while Thunderfoot gets away with understandable lack of empathy.
You pathetic hateful wretch.
@LynM: Yes, I have been reading the very valuable contributions of the sheep tick. Ugh. I don’t know how you guys keep going at this after so many waves of gnnnnnnnnnnnnnnrrrrrrrrrgh!
@nms:
uh, OK, I’m lost on this one. I looked up the Pharyngula wiki to no avail. Google got me this which is about a pelt incentive in Canada. I assure you that my pelt is not even a bit sniny and not worth harvesting!
Janine and all:
Yes, sorry.
It probably didn’t come across well, but sheeptick was making me just as angry as the rest of you – especially the reaction to Caine was just revolting.
I tend to revert to sarcasm when I’m angry (probably a bad habit). I’ll be more careful!
@ CC Fuss
Because WE ARE PHARYNGULA
/spartan voice
I wish I could say something substantive but I really cannot. Over the course of the entire day I have read about 750 comments in this thread and have been left in a state of despair. Ok, not despair but some sadness that the skeptical community has a rather large idiot problem.
Many years ago I got interested in skepticism after having been a big believer in UFOs, ghosts, etc. I was never a believer in god, and once I got over my paranormal problem I realized I was an atheist and began reading about this. I thought science, skepticism and atheism went together very well. For a long time I was also under the mistaken impression that people in the skeptical community were rational, thoughtful people, probably as I had met so few that had similar interests as I did and knew no better. Then I ran into the libertarian crowd of atheists and skeptics and found that many were completely divorced from reality. It was disappointing to learn this but I was having too much fun with creationists to think much about it. So I went along happily for years thinking this was a small group, occasionally seeing them pop up, eventually finding this blog many years ago and encountering them regularly, but still seeing them as a small section of the entire group of atheists. Then EG happened. Since then my feelings towards many in the skeptical community have plummeted and after reading this thread I hope they have hit rock bottom. How anyone can read the supporters of Thunderfoot in this thread and think they are in any way reasonable is beyond my ability to think at 03:30. The ignorance of the topic at hand, the complete lack of historicity, the same stupid questions and points being brought up over and over again (whinging about free speach, censorship and TF’s supposed banning being three issues that come to mind immediately). Combine that with the constant tone trolling and I have to say they are every bit as bad as the worst creationists when it comes to completely vacuity and sheer intellectual laziness.
Sigh. I wish I was not so tired, I fear my rambling makes no sense. But I have found this whole experience to be so frustrating and there is something about this specific thread that has exacerbated those feelings.
No need to apologize, C.C. Most of us have a very wide sarcastic streak.
I was more worried that we might have scared off a seemingly reasonable newbie. (I say that because I do not recall your name.)
Sarcasm is just about always welcome. Just that this was one of the few times where is just did not work. But, like I said, that is not your fault.
I hope that if the future, things are not so harsh for you here.
It’s not your fault at all, C. C. (although at some point we may need to duel to see who is the One True CC). Pretty sure no one was expecting the thread to get this nasty all of a sudden.
Travis, your rant did make sense. Yes, all of this is distasteful, tiring and frustrating. But you carry on, struggle, fight, learn and teach in the simple hope that the situation gets better.
Please, do not worry to much that you feel frustration. I think all decent people will feel that. You just try to do what you can to try to improve what is around you. Even it it seens that it has barely improved.
I did something that I try to avoid, I allowed my anger at a troll to keep me up later than I should be. I should have been in bed an hour ago. I need to be up for work. So I am bowing out. I will see how this is resolved by tomorrow night.
Bye.
Thanks Janine – no worries!
And yes, I guess I’m a sort-of newbie; I’ve been lurking since forever but only commented a handful of times because nothing worthwhile to add / in the wrong time zone and missed the main conversation.
@ Travis and others re. ‘traditional’ skepticism:
I had a similar experience, but much longer ago. I joined my local skeptics group way back when I was still in undergraduate. They all seemed like nice fun folks. But then I got more involved with the wider community, and the email list (as it was back then pre-blogs) and found a very wide, deep streak of nasty sexism, along with very strong tribalism around stuff like global warming denialism, anti-anything-that-remotely-seemed-like-hippies-might-like-it, and so on. Trying to say anything about it just resulted in a massive pile-on.
There was one memorable occasion when I objected to a rape joke on the email list and was uniformly berated by everyone there for being a humourless feminazi blah blah, then when I kept arguing with them, it turned out that actually I should have just kept quiet because everyone else agreed with me (despite none of them having said so) and thus I was being a BULLY to the rape-jokist guy.
…So yeah. I wouldn’t be crying a river either if the ‘skeptic movement’ disappears.
—–“Fuck off, pisscake. Let me tell you something – a family member started raping me when I was three years old. It went on for 6 damn years. I had a mother who was convinced I’d be schizophrenic, like my father, so she started having me locked up on a whim, starting when I was seven years old. It got worse from there.
I have empathy for other people, especially those who are being harassed and threatened on a daily basis for simply having the fucking nerve to speak out while being female.
Just for speaking out here at Pharyngula, I’ve received threats via email, I’ve been harassed, had nasty ass blog posts written about me, etc. I haven’t run out of empathy. Or brains.
You dare to bring up the minor shit Tfoot has gotten on yootube? There isn’t enough fuck in the universe to tell you to fuck off with.””—–
FULL STOP
NO ONE compared her personal tragedy with ANYTHING AT ALL!! No one wants any woman to suffer I never ever implied such ever. THis was TOTALLY unprovoked.
BTW, does anyone here know my personal tragedy? Would it be appropriate to bring it up??
I was assaulted. I was raped. ergo STFU??? Good enough for the PZ crowd I guess.
This brouhaha has nothing to do with the issue at hand. For someone to come out w/ an epithet at the start , a anecdotal testimony and then competely derail an entirely irrelevant conversation means what??? THis makes sense to you? What the hell is wrong with every last one of you?
I truly believe things can be changed even though the process is slow and can be very frustrating.
Here’s a story about why I feel that. I didn’t keep tight statistics as I went, but when I was deciding on a career change, I added up what I had done as a lawyer. My education was subsidized by the government and taxes, and I felt I should give fair value back. Had I really done anything? Did it matter?
At the end of 25 years, I had helped about 2,000 people, helped them deal with domestic violence, stalkers, that sort of thing. I also worked for Children’s Aid for years. There, I know I helped get about 300 children out of homes where they were at risk, sometimes at risk of severe harm. I also helped hundreds more stay in their homes, but in safety. Some of those people were taken from situations of immediate and severe physical danger. When you add the family members who were not my clients but who were affected by work I did, that meant at least some 5,000 people in all. The town I was living in had fewer people than that. I could look at it and see the numbers. I realized that every day, you do what you can. Every day, you try. It does have an effect and it does matter.
Changing society is like that. One person at a time. Stay with it, Travis and everyone else.
Sheeptick:
1. *You* argued that Thunderf00t was justified in empathy-failure because he’s received lots of horrible threats (implying that lots of horribleness justifies jaded scorn)
2. Caine shared that she personally has experienced far more horribleness than just lots of horrible threats, yet she does not have empathy-failure, and feels that experiencing horribleness would never be a justification for empathy-failure.
She was answering you directly, and you are shaming her for pointing out so clearly that your point was craptastic.
Sheeptick,
Thunderfoot asserted that people on FTB talk way too much about feminism for his taste, because, afterall, it isn’t that much of a problem. He didn’t really pin down what he was talking about, but said that he didn’t want policies to spoil his fun.
The fact is that sexism is a problem, just not one readily seen by men. Men who talk as if women are just blowing things out of proportion are part of the problem.
Now go find a drop bear.
@ sheeptick
You apparently cannot see that telling us that Caine’s statement was somehow not fairsy is anything but utter wankery.
Somehow or other, you know “the right way” to do everything, and a true story that refutes you is derailing things.
This fail seems to be way, way beyond reach-ability. I have raised cats with more insight than you are demonstrating.
Maybe each and every one of us are not wrong. Maybe you blew it.
Lyn M:
You give me heart. And strength. Thank you for being you, thank you for the work you’ve done, for all those you have made safe, for all those you sought justice for over the years. ♥
Havelock adds:
argggh. The shame of blockquote fail.
@ Caine
Thank you, but I sure had the easier row to hoe. I have said it before and I say it again. I admire you and the others who have spoken out. I admire the guts you have to keep on in ordinary life, nevermind taking up the extra weight of dealing with …
Let me stop there.
And to Havelock, as a long time cat keeper, I had to read over and over how cute you rats are. I also had to look at a lot of cutie pie pics. Now, I actually think rats are kind of cool. So 1111111111111111111111111111 back atchya.
Quite true. I think today was made worse by my need to fight ignorance on another front today, regarding sexual freedom here in Canada. There was a lot of frustration and annoyance piled into the day. I would like to think that society is changing but it is a long and tiring battle. Thankfully there seems to be many others that can take one’s place when one is feeling a little burnt out. I will certainly stay with it as these issues are important to me but maybe take the weekend off.
___Sheeptick:
1. *You* argued that Thunderf00t was justified in empathy-failure because he’s received lots of horrible threats (implying that lots of horribleness justifies jaded scorn)–
Yes. He’s Jaded. perhaps
___2. Caine shared that she personally has experienced far more horribleness than just lots of horrible threats, yet she does not have empathy-failure, and feels that experiencing horribleness would never be a justification for empathy-failure.___
That is not what she said at all.
–Just for speaking out here at Pharyngula, I’ve received threats via email, I’ve been harassed, had nasty ass blog posts written about me, etc. I haven’t run out of empathy. Or brains.
You dare to bring up the minor shit Tfoot has gotten on yootube”—
That is what she said. AS IN SHUT UP. because anything Tfoot says means is miniscule, which is, ironically enough, what tFoot was saying about Rebecca Watson.
Let’s get to the heart of this. You don’t know my pain = shut your unfeeling mouth.
Is this the level of discourse we are at? I myself have suffered. May surprise you, my horrible state might fit some sort of awful characterization you might wish upon me. But this does not allow me to shut you up on a here or anywhere.
She was answering nothing, she was bullying me on a message board in order to make people dislike me. THere was nothing germaine or revealing that she said that affected this issue at all.
sheepdip,
? You are not very smart are you.
The reason Caine brought that up was because you were comparing Thunderfoot’s and Rebecca Watson’s experiences. Things are not the same for men and women as a class. As atheists they both get death threats; as a woman Rebecca also gets rape threats. Life is generally speaking worse for atheist women than for atheist men.
And Caine didn’t imply that you wanted women to suffer. Let me repeat that, since you seem incapable of reading for basic comprehension.
Caine didn’t imply that you wanted women to suffer.
If you don’t understand why Caine said what she said, read again. Then read again. Read everything we’ve said to you about it. Then fuck off for a while, because you’ve become very tiresome. Then if you come back, which you shouldn’t, but if you come back read again everything we’ve said to you about it. Ask a stupid question if you must.
And then you’ll see Caine didn’t imply that you wanted women to suffer.
Wrong. You were using Thunderfoot’s experiences to excuse his lack of empathy about sexism generally and Watson specifically.
It would be appropriate. Feel free to talk about it.
That’s awful. You didn’t deserve for that to happen to you.
But no, not ergo STFU, because people here haven’t been minimizing sexual violence. If anyone had been minimizing sexual violence then it would make sense for you to follow with ergo STFU.
Yes it does.
It wasn’t irrelevant — and you’ve been doing anecdotes throughout this entire thread — but let me try to teach you something about empathy here.
If someone brings up a personal tragedy that you can’t understand the relevance of, it is not appropriate to berate them for it. It may be that they were triggered by something you didn’t understand. You can do a few things; you can ignore it, you can try to offer sympathy, you can apologize if you see what you said that may have triggered the reaction, you can simply affirm what they’ve said and continue arguing (this is not quite ignoring the matter, but similar). Not all of these things are equally good, mind. Ignoring the matter can be callous too. I’m not saying it’s a great thing.
But — all of these options are better than telling them they shouldn’t have talked about their own experience. All of these options are better than claiming it was inappropriate for them to talk about their own personal suffering.
We should want a world in which people feel able to bring up their experiences. Scolding people for bringing up their personal suffering doesn’t help bring about a better world. Sometimes people have to talk about it, even at times you feel are inopportune. Talking about it at inopportune times is better than not talking about it. (And again, I’m not granting your suggestion that this was an inopportune time. It’s very clear that it wasn’t. I’m just showing you what you can do when you don’t understand why a person said something about their personal experiences, how you can deal with those sitations without hurting people.)
Now sheeptick, stop trying to shame Caine. It makes you a bad person.
I can’t believe I just read through this entire thread. Sheeptick really is a special little snowflake, isn’t xe?
@ sheeptick
That is you saying his lack of empathy arose out of the abuse he suffered.
That bit, sheeptick, was Caine making the point that Tfoot’s failure to consider the problem for women arose out of his lack of empathy, which could not be forgiven due to the stress of internet criticism as persons who had suffered more managed empathy.
The don’t you dare part, was rhetoric, intended as I interpret her statement, to mean, how can you say such things.
After which, you stated over and over that Caine had unforgivably relied on the truth to rebut your argument, derail the thread and otherwise not be fairsy.
Still not getting it, are you?
tigtog:
Ta.
Use your blockquoting ability. You did it once. You can do it again.
That’s not okay.
In fact it is what she said.
She quoted you saying:
And she responded:
Those parts I bolded, they are very important. Ruminate on them.
This is a distortion. See those bolded parts above? You’re leaving out their importance. You were trying to justify Thunderfoot’s lack of empathy. She responded by telling you to shut up because she is still capable of empathy and therefore Thunderfoot should be capable too.
She did not simply say you should shut up because she’s had it worse than Thunderfoot has. She was very clearly referencing your excusing of his lack of empathy, and she was very clearly pointing out that it was not a valid excuse.
You’re allowed to talk about it here.
You said you were raped; I guarantee no one here wishes that upon you. It’s awful and you didn’t deserve it.
That really depends on what the person is saying. If they’re saying “rape isn’t bad” for instance then it would justify you telling them to shut the fuck up.
Except for all those bits I bolded, eh.
We already disliked you. And no, she wasn’t bullying you. She responded substantively about your claims regarding Thunderfoot’s empathy.
Except for all those bits I bolded.
[meta]
sheeptick:
It wasn’t bullying (rather, it was a pained response to you) and she hardly needs to do anything to make people dislike you.
No-one is shutting you up, scum-bucket — you’re merely despised for your apologias and your entitlement complex and your (de facto) malicious cluelessness.
(Caine, OM is a well known and respected regular, you’re a drive-by whiner who’s poisoned their own well)
Why don’t you go comment on the thunderpod’s youtube channel?
@ John Morales #307
It is interesting that the only motive sheeptick can imagine for Caine is that she wants him to look bad. Yet he cannot see that actually, he looks bad.
Don’t worry. In this thread, blockquote fail looks pretty good by comparison.
Thank you ixchel for articulating my thoughts so elegantly:
Lynn M Just – thanks, for doing what you did, for doing what you do.
Caine I’ve never taken the opportunity, I don’t think, to say…here’s my problem. There aren’t words. Admiration, respect, grief for your suffering? No word or phrase has the gravity.
May I humbly offer you aroha – love?
Sheeptick I’m sorry you were assaulted. That’s horrible, it shouldn’t happen to anyone. Not acknowledging Caine’s experience was horrible. You shouldn’t do that to anyone.
I knew someone, too well, who had a frightening lack of empathy for the experience of those around hir. Who became wildly defensive when called on their lack of empathy, who’d clutch at any straw, fabricate any story to get out of the responsibilty of being fully human/humane. That person still scares me. Don’t be them.
Stop. Educate yourself. Perhaps get some help.
[meta]
Lyn, I for one don’t know what sheeptick’s gender is.
John, absolutely true. I went from a comment way way back in the thread that appeared to me to suggest male. After trying to search for whatever key words I thought I had, I could not find it.
FIFMyself
Sheeptick, Sheeptick, for your own sake if no one else’s, learn the First Rule of Holes!
Stop digging. Stop. NOW!
Go away. You’ve made yourself -spectacularly- unwelcome. Do you see anyone else speaking up in your defense? At this point you don’t even have the PUAs and MRAs on your side anymore.
If you want to ever salvage anything here, just go away for at least 12 hours. I suggest reading this thread again, especially other people’s responses to yours, and your responses (or failures to respond) to each of them. Figure out what you’ve done wrong, and try to work out just how abject your apology would have to be, if you expect anyone here to ever speak to you with anything but loathing. If you get past that, -then- write something. If it hasn’t taken you at least a couple of days, go away until it does!
Right now, you’re just not listening to anyone, and no one at all wants to hear a word from you either. You can’t possibly accomplish any good by continuing this conversation. Are you going to continue it anyway, just to dig yourself into that hole a little deeper?
[meta]
Lyn, kudos.
(and yeah, fail on multiple levels by the tick, and making the fundamental attribution error is just one of them)
ixchel, the jaguar goddess of midwifery and war ॐ
You keep implying that I’m stupid or dense.
I’m not.
Don’t really like that and to be honest, haven’t said anything of the sort towards you. Or anyone tonight.
I like people here but this is an horrible forum for honest discussion. Pretty easy to see how these misunderstandings erupt. That abused girl came out with an epithet towards me. Not impressed. I’ve been abused and sure suffered plenty. Sure I have. This quality grants no one an inroad towards reason in my book. Quit making excuses for the poor thing. If you want to parse her words and import them into your arguments that is your affair entirely but you’ve not raised her by my standard. Pathetic, sad, and deserving of help, just not the sort you are offering.
You know what sucks? I’m probably your best friend in a way. I like what you say and how you say it.
Oh, and I get how I don’t get it. Not so fucking dumb.
Little drunk and could give fuck all about the message board here but I had my say and you’ve had your entertainment.
John, thank you. And I agree with the parenthetical comment. Attribution was just one of many.
Looked like transference to me, actually, in the psychological sense. (I know all about psychology, btw, because my sister took psychology and I used to have dinner with her every day. Nearly.)
gross
@ John
From #315
It is comments like this that inclined me to think male. And a few other things, but I will wait to be more sure about that.
sheeptick is getting too unpleasant to even mock properly
sheeptick:
It ain’t Caine I see blubbering before me, and she’s no girl, either.
Your drunken incompetence aside, this ain’t a “message board”, it’s PZ’s blog’s comment section, and you’re not entertaining but pitiably clueless, and honest discussion is what’s showing your attributes.
Again: why not go to the thunderpod’s “message board” and do your thing there?
@ nms
Indeed.
So this guy is for unlimited free speech, but Rebecca is “at best misguided” for saying “don’t do that”?
What about her sacred free speech?
Sweet zombie jebus! Why cant you let it go? She didn’t do anything wrong.
No; she spent a full minute criticising the actions of a random stranger who made a pass at her. While she was stuck in the elevator with him. Alone, inebriated, in a foreign country, at 4 in the morning. Then explained why this was a shitty thing to do – especially to a woman who has just made a speech explaining how it makes her uncomfortable to be sexualised by her audience.
Damnit, world! How can you not SEE this woman is an extremist nutjob?!
AND she had obviously not brushed her hair before making that video. Her PINK hair.
Hell in a handcart, I tells ya!
fredsalvador @323, your trolling is duly noted.
I think Fredsalvador was being facetious, John Morales.
Okay, I know this has been said dozens of times in various threads – probably a few dozen in this thread alone – but I have to say it or I’m going to go crazy.
To the email writer and his ilk:
IT’S THE FUCKING INTERNET, PEOPLE!
FTB are under no obligation to let thunderf00t spew his drivel here. He can go to blogspot, tumblr, wordpress, twitter, facebook, livejournal or fucking myspace and let forth the crazy there. Or, he can get his own, independent website.
You are not entitled to a blog hosted by a private organisation because ‘free speech’. You can say what the fuck you like, they’re just not going to pay you to do it here.
And if FTB ‘don’t represent majority of the freethinking community’ then who the fuck CARES that you can’t have a blog here? Go find or found a blog network that you think does!
Seriously, we were too mean to a guy who in a discussion about sexism started by making a get in the kitchen “joke” for no fucking reason. He was never an honest actor, and the bloggers here still gave him the benefit of the doubt, and he continued to troll. So he was fired.
I agree with the people that thought thunderf00t’s eventual removal was likely from the first announcement. I didn’t expect it to be so quick and I suspected it would be for racism, not misogyny.
I have caught up on this thread and I have three (3) things to say that are of the utmost relevance and importance:
1) Some people believe every word of Genesis, I don’t even think Phil Collins is that good a drummer.
2) I’m not an Aussie but I Fear The Drop Bear.
3) I don’t know who you are. I don’t know what you want. If you are looking for a conversation without swearing whilst simultaneously being clueless and dismissing the very real problems of sexism and its denial, I can tell you I don’t have patience. But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. If you step back from the internet and think, that’ll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don’t, I will look for you, I will find you, and I will mock the living bejesus out of you.
Louis
Ooooooo, Louis. That sounds like fun!
If you have two cupcakes, would you give me one?
Lyn,
I have just managed to avoid a “give you one joke”. I believe I have earned all the cupcakes.
Happily, I would be overjoyed to share!
Louis
*Annoyedly remembers something*
Please?
Great! You win two ways as we can assist each other to
torturechat with them.And did you know that when you put <puppy eyes inside the full set of brackets, the comment disappears?</puppy eyes
Sheeptick
It says a lot that this guy thinks “average” is something to aim for and represent at a skeptical conference.
Does he want to be “Joe the plumber” when he grows up?
BTW that “Taken” parody was An Joke.
Has anyone else seen that film? What an unreconstructed bit of clueless middle aged impotent male wish fulfilment.
[SPOILERS]
Basically, American-White-Super-Daddy rushes to rescue his Pure-White-Virginal-Daughter, who was kidnapped for being Female-In-The-Europe,* JUST before her noble white virginity was wrested from her by Nasty-Arab.
American-White-Super-Daddy is also Honest Joe Protecting Little Women Who Totally Want To Be Fucked/Daddied/Both By Him, and he is totally unlike Super Rich A-Bit-Jewy-New-Yet-Weak-Husband of Horrid-Ex-Wife who couldn’t deal with American-White-Super-Daddy’s superness. However, she moistly recognises American-White-Super-Daddy’s awesome superness and gives him a Female Look to make him go to The Europe and rescue their Pure-White-Virginal-Daughter.
Incidentally, American-White-Super-Daddy has been reduced to Honest Joe Protecting Little Women by The Government For Some Reason. The Government is something as bad as The Europe. Apparently they have them there.
Whilst in The Europe, American-White-Super-Daddy is betrayed by Perfidous-Frenchie, who he kills Righteously. He also shoots the wife of Perfidous-Frenchie, but only wounding her because she has Women Parts and is thus not a proper threat worthy of killing, in order to demonstrate that Torture Works Motherfuckers.
American-White-Super-Daddy also gets to kill Eastern-Europeans-Who-Are-All-The-Same-And-Probably-Ex-Commies by the boatload, which is Very Reasonable. American-White-Super-Daddy then kills Nasty Arab and chums before whisking Pure-White-Virginal-Daughter back to the Safety Of The America and the undying shame of Super Rich A-Bit-Jewy-New-Yet-Weak-Husband and eternal slightly moist gratitude of Horrid-Ex-Wife.
[REVIEW]
VOMIT!
Louis
* The Europe is a Villainous Place where True Americans should not go because The Europe is full of Envious Foreigners who hate America. If anyone, especially a Vulnerable-Woman goes to The Europe they will be kidnapped and raped and put on drugs to work as a prostitute.
@ricardodivali having sniffles over stiffles
Average means you have a penis, silly. You have to start there.
@ Louis #334:
Ugh. Thanks for helping us avoid that horror. I weep for the brains of those involved in making it, though ;_;
That isn’t a good point. It is a bullshit opinion that should be and was called out. There was nothing there except “don’t tell me what I can and can’t do”. What a loser if you think mature adult behavior with proper consent isn’t possible. Still not making a cogent point, and you can’t/won’t. That requires you to shut the fuck up and listen, the same with TF. Neither of you can do that. Your egos are in your way.
But Louis, did you like the movie?
What the fuck is this? I dislike you because you are a dishonest liar and bullshitter lacking honesty, integrity, and evidence. Caine was icing on the cake, a mere addition to your own stupidity. You need to understand your real problem, which is why must you continue to lie and bullshit to yourself, then attempt to lie and bullshit to those who do know the complete score, since we were there through the process? Try silence, as the hole you have dug for yourself is wwwaaayyyy over your head.
I think I will respond to sheeptick many hours from now when I imagine the sheepdrunk has worn off.
Meanwhile,
quoting this for truth.
Irenedelse,
Oh you have to see it, it’s the holotype of it’s species. Morons the internet wide fap over it endlessly.
Louis
P.S. Lyn M, liked it? Loved it. A tour de force, a rip roaring rollercoaster cliché from start to finish.
Especially if you are engaging in a dishonest discussion, which you are. You haven’t stopped lying and bullshitting since your first post. Your OPINION is worthless due to those lies that have been exposed. You need to shut the fuck up and listen, but like all MRA/MRA apologists, you are too stupid and egotistical to do so. You brought all the “abuse” you have received on yourself for being stupid, lying, not listening, and thinking you are smarter than you really are. Your own behavior has been atrocious from your first post. Get real. Which requires you to shut up for a while. The situation with TF is irrevocable. He will never return.
Louis, that’s what I thought. Your review showed such feeling for the film.
Louis:
I think I saw that film. Did it star Harrison Ford? Did he continuously look either put upon or angry? (A film I am glad I did not see in a theatre.)
Not that you give a shit about this, you already have your narrative about these exchanges and you are the brave man standing up for truth and reason; but I was not fucking entertained.
Pathetic excuse of a human.
John:
Goddamn! I am so stealing this to use in the future (with proper attribution, of course).
♥
And I have to echo this from CC:
Like
SallySamStrange, I’m not a skeptic, I’m a humanist. I am so fucking tired of dudebros (and chillgirls) using the battle cry of “SKEPTICISM!” to dismiss the very well documented and understood discrimination/harassment/violence against women. “Skepticism” isn’t a club that you get to beat your opponents over the head with, especially when you can’t back up your own worthless opinions. Your gut feeling that everything is cool is THE EXACT FUCKING OPPOSITE of skepticism.Gordon:
Did you know? Free speech only applies with particular caveats:
1) You’re a pee-pee haver
and
2) You don’t side with the Femi-Fascists
or
3) As a non- pee-pee haver, you agree with the dudes all the time
Free speech is not afforded to us who don’t have pee-pees and form our own opinions.
See? Simple!
Louis:
Great, now I’ve peed on my porch furniture. >:(
(Side note: I saw an interview with Liam Neeson on The Graham Norton Show not very long ago where he said that fans ask him to quote this speech all the time. The funny thing is: he can never remember it. Poor guy.)
Well, yeah. It was written by Luc Besson (of La Femme Nikita, The Professional, The Fifth Element, The Transporter fame. That’s what pretty much all of his scripts are about.)
I’m more than a day late here (eh, timezones, stupid work stuff etc.) but it can never be said enough: thank you, all of you, people like Caine and Lynn – and ixchel here – and many others, for caring and never backing down or giving up in the face of fractal and never-ending douchebaggery, for your eloquence and passion and facts and skills.
I notice that sheeptick actually used the good ol’ “I’m probably your best friend in a way” line. Unbelievable.
No, sheeptick, you are not my best friend or a friend to anyone here. You have done nothing but demonstrate a contemptible double-standard (we should excuse poor dear tf’s lack of empathy because of his experiences, but ignore the fact that others who have survived experiences immeasurably worse are yet able to retain their empathy). I am truly sorry that you were raped. Nobody here has ever belittled sexual abuse – except the trolls, of course, which is why we don’t like you.
I commend his taste in forgetting that speech ASAP. I’d much rather listen to Neeson’s speech from Love, Actually, although given the untimely death of his wife Natasha Richardson I’d never be so insensitive as to ask him to do it (the speech is a widower talking to his son). But Michael Collins/Rob Roy/Oskar Schindler all had some meaningful things to say that weren’t just mindless kickarsery.
QFT.
I don’t identify as a skeptic, I identify as a feminist who also happens to be an atheist. I started lurking here after E-gate broke because Amanda Marcotte pointed out PZ as someone who Got It, and so he is.
I don’t comment very often because the rest of you say what needs to be said much more eloquently than I can, but I do want to take a moment to say what a fantastic community you all are.
That is all.
Louis @ 341 (with regard to the Taken movie;
I have err… well… I suppose I shall have to call it ‘good’ news, then; they have made a sequel, and it seems to be more of the same.
And by ‘more of the same’, I mean jus that – pretty much the exact same premise reiterated complete with middle aged male wish fulfilment fantasies, kidnapped family members, and large numbers of eminently shoot-able and conveniently non-American types having unfortunate encounters with pieces of high velocity lead…
So… there you go. Enjoy (if that is humanly possible). Absolutely none of that troublesome originality stuff, guarenteed.
I looked for the Pharyngula podcasts on Thunderf00t’s YouTube channel, but I couldn’t find them. I guess he’s pro-censorship and anti-freethought for not promoting them.
Oggie, #344,
Nah it was Liam Neeson. Unless I’ve not noticed you being funny again…very possible and entirely my own fault!
Gregory, #350,
Did I miss those [enormous sarcasm] tags off again? Oh deary, deary me, I’m SO careless! ;-)
Taken is bad. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not sat here in a smoking jacket puffing on a menthol and with a book of Derrida on my lap claiming to only watch High and Mighty Intellectual Films With Subtitles and Moody Lighting (and minimal Dutch Tilts). Far from it. I like a schlock horror or a raucous comedy as much as the next idiot. Film can be illuminating and entertaining, and I am not naive enough to expect the bulk of Hollywood output to fulfil those needs. I even own a television and have recently had my faith in the medium restored by The Wire which I thought was brilliant. Hell, my favourite film is Animal House, I’m not going to apologise for it! t’s not the only film I like.
But things like taken are actively poisonous IMO. It’s just so blatantly nasty. I don’t mean gore and guts, yawn, I mean in attitude. That is a film replete with toxic privilege and dumbitude. It really is worth watching just to have your jaw drop.
Oops, I need to use the preview. Gosh!
Louis
No, nothing funny.
I just remember an 80s movie, starring Harrison Ford, whith a remarkably similar plot. Not sure the name of it.
Is that Rade Šerbeđija finally playing a role where he isn’t an evil East European criminal with revenge/mayhem-for-the-fun-of-it fantasies? Nah.
Šerbeđija-> ŠerbedžijaLouis:
Sorry.
The film I remembered was Frantic but the idea is similar.
My bad. I need to remember to stay out of popular culture discusssions. My cluelessness is obvious.
Oggie,
Well since you remembered a film I’d forgotten…I think you’re better than you might think! ;-)
Get your booty into these conversations, man!
Louis
I misremembered the plot (it was his wife, not daughter). I couldn’t remember the name and, without imdb, I would never have even come close. Don’t worry about not remembering it. It was emminently forgettable.
Knocked up as you are, I have no trouble believing this is true.
Louis @ 352;
Oh, I know you were being sracastic about it – I read your hilarious review of it @ 334. It had me in stitches, so I thought I would play along in style by mentioning the risible sequel to Taken in all its orginality-free-zone-ness.
I apologise for the fact that the funniest part of the post I intended to be humourous was my lack of competence at the whole humour thing.
Yup, by pretty much any reasonable measure it is awful.
Now, that is quite the image – lung cancer and cinematic pretensiousness…
;-)
I too have a liking for horror movies and various other assorted films that probably are, to the objective observer, absolutely horrible dreck. That said, I do have my standards. I have a relative who likes Sixties and Seventies era Bond movies, and expects me to sit through them with her. I swear, I half expect her to ask what that strange grinding noise is, and I will have to answer that it is my teeth. The sheer level of casual misogyny, homophobia and racism of movies like Diamonds are Forever and Live and Let Die turns my stomach.
There is the odd diamond to be found among the sea of cubic zirconia that makes up most television programmes, it is true. I have been known to laugh myself sick while watching The Big Bang Theory, for example. The Wire is, of course, fantastically well written, and then there are my perennial favourites – Sir David Attenborough’s nature documentaries and the fantastic programmes on physics done by Professor Stephen Hawking.
OK…each to hir own, I guess… *edges slowly away*
Hollywood does occasionally outdo itself with movies that go even further than usual down the route of acting as propaganda for the patriarchy, usually involving gruff, emotionally stunted male characters that kill a bunch of
disposeable, one dimesnional racist stereotypes usually played by dark skinned/Eastern European/Asian extras‘bad guys’ while treating the offensively-misogynist-trope-compliant obligatory scatily clad, eyelash-fluttering, simpering femalecipherlead as his just ‘spoils of war’.So it does have some educational value, afterall…
;-P
I find it odd to frame them as alternatives.
People are skeptics, humanists, atheists, agnostics, feminists, libertarians, racists, socialists etc. etc. in all kinds of combinations. It’s massive orthogonality.
Then you have how people identify–or not–with the various Movements that go with each label.
The problem seems to be emanating mostly from people who identify as part of the Skeptics Movement or whatever. Not from ‘skeptics’ less tribally defined.
Oggie,
Wellllllll, wife not daughter basically means substitute Property for Pure-White-Virginal-Daughter. Mind you daughters, having Lady Parts™ are still Property but they are property with Virginity that must be protected, whereas wives must be must be a cook in the living room, a whore in the kitchen and a maid in the bedroom. Or something. ;-)
Anyway, I am hoping I’ll entice a nice cupcakey MRA to come and disagree bitterly with my Taken synopsis. I want to be told “it’s just a bit of fun”.
Louis
Raging Bee left this comment over at Lousy Canuck:
I wholeheartedly agree. For that matter, I think it no coincidence that the privileged (it’s NOT just misogynist, I spent years on a forum filled with people who would do/condone what Sarkeesian is getting, they’re Guys On The Internet right on down to giggling over “nigger”. I used to be one of them. I am not proud of the days I spent at age 14 giggling at how we’d spam up our own Ventrilo chat with Microsoft Sam endlessly repeating “nigger”.) section of skepticism overlaps heavily with the libertarian and right-wing contingent (what I like to refer to as “Penn fans”).
I do not think that this is sheer coincidence.
I should also note that the one time I have dealt with a conservative “skeptic” with regards to applying skepticism to politics, they were making exhortations about how skeptics need to have diversity of ideas, evidence apparently be damned because there might be a rational argument for conservatism, somewhere out there, and all of the people in the thread suggesting that applying skepticism results in liberal policy were just making assumptions.
I also don’t think that this is a coincidence.
There is also the phenomenon of the self-identified “centrist” or “independent”, who “sits on the fence” complaining about “both sides” all the time, even though the regressives’ conduct involves strawmen, silencing tactics, lies, threats and overall dishonesty and bullying while the liberals’ involves calling out that conduct. There are numerous examples of such “fence-sitters” both in the social justice debacle and in mainstream politics.
…yeah, I don’t think that’s a coincidence either.
Thunderf00t has an “angry rabble”, eh? Thanks goodness things are more civilised over here.
The hypocrisy continues to astonish.
Oh get over your self Jack. Your false equivalency is astonishingly stupid.
@ jackrawlinson
Oh look, sheepshag – or whatever the hell xe name was – has left the building, but fear not, another distinguished actor enters stage left: jackrawlinson.
Do tell us, oh smart one, how exactly are we hypocrites?
Also, this is beginning to feel like a game of guacamole … let’s see how many rounds jack lasts.
Still waiting for JR to say something cogent without attitude. But then, like a typical MRA, attitude is all it has…Right JR????
Not a Taken-fan either. The overall “hero-rescue-damsel-in-distress” theme is an integral part of hollywood; what I am wondering is if there is any movie featuring a heroine/hero figure rescuing someone which is not objectionable on grounds of sexism?
Did Ophelia pop in and ban jackrawlinson already? -checks- no, doesn’t look like it.
Rev BDC,
Oh I don’t know, we can get a bit angry and rabble-y over here too, seems fine as far as it goes.
Of course the problem with Jack is he doesn’t realise that the anger and rabble-y-ness aren’t really that important. The difference, as you doubtlessly refer to with your comment about Jack’s “false equivalence”, is in the content of what’s being said by the angry rabbles.
More than that, I’m kind of a fan of angry rabbles, they can be quite useful at times. And that’s a second thing that Jack and chums don’t get. I don’t think anyone here is advocating “angry rabble all the time everywhere”, but “angry rabble at Pharyngula” doesn’t seem like a crime to me. Of course when the Man Fee Fees are hurt and Pee Pees shrivel, reality takes a back seat to privilege protection.
Louis
I find it odd that “liberal” and “libertarian” are framed as alternatives.
But that’s the way it is.
Not because any rational reading of the true meaning of either word should give you to understand that they’re mutually exclusive, but because a sizeable faction of self-described skeptics appear to be actively opposed to humanist values.
JackRawlinson:
Would you care to back up your assertion with actual cited quotes? Yeah, we fucking swear around here, but we also try to make cogent and supported arguments. So please point out exactly where I, or others, are hypocrites.
Chas:
Uh, yeah. ‘Cos “skeptics” don’t know what the hell “skepticism” actually means. Which I’ve already explained in the post you quoted.
And, quite frankly, I really don’t give two shits if Big Foot or ETs or whatever exist.
BUTT CHUPAKABRAS WASHED UP MONSTIR ON BEECHEZ CATTLE VAMPIERZ!!2131!
SamStrange #372:
Not just that, but also evidence-based policy in general. The contingent that kicks up a fuss over feminism seems to share a lot of members with the libertarian contingent, and a lot of arguments (if not members) with the contingent that kicks up a fuss about diversity of ideas if it is even suggested that applying skepticism leads one to liberal policy.
It’s like accommodationism only with politics. Seems that while us atheists have succeeded in not treating religions as sacred cows, a very loud contingent of us still wants to treat “political” issues as sacred cows.
*gives Josh the finger!*
The problem I see with “skepticism” is that at best, it is the beginning of rational thought. It’s important, but only as one of many tools for understanding the world.
The problem that I am seeing with self-identifying skeptics is that they often lack the intellectual honesty that the label would seem to imply. It is easy to be skeptical about nonsensical factual claims, but much more difficult to be skeptical of one’s own ethics.
One thing I have learned from his blog (and others at FtB) is to doubt my own goodness. As it turns out, I am not a wholly good person*. I am a hypocrite. I am arrogant. And I am not fair.** These are things I hope to fix.
I hardly want to be in a community that doesn’t challenge my deepest and most dearly-held biases. So whatevs, I guess.
*You’re OK. You’ve fainted is all.
**Et cetera. There are lots of things, but I’m not in a confessional now, am I?
Wow. Just read through the whole damn thread.
How do the xtians ever get the idea that atheists can’t be moral? This whole thread was a brutal give and take on what constitutes moral behavior, all with no references to a bronze age book of myths!
This. This is morality in action. Painfully, slowly, turning assholes into thinking human beings. Transforming personal tragedies into examples of how a person can be a moral human being.
Thank you all for being here. As a white, middle aged male I don’t have the benefit(?) of perspective of being in a less privileged group. Unless I read it here, and extract that perspective vicariously through these debates. I don’t have the verbal skills or gift of humor that so many of you have, but I am proud to call myself a member of this community.
Gregory,
Don’t diss Animal House, there will be….consequences. ;-)
I could put you on Double Secret Probation.
Louis
Oh hey, I missed a response to me.
Nonny (667):
So? Who the fuck cares if they “get it” or not?
That doesn’t mean that other people can’t learn. That doesn’t mean that other people can’t become empathetic. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t show our support to everyone who is fighting against this disgusting behavior.
It’s fine that you don’t have the patience for trolling, but to imply that feeding the trolls is worthless is demonstrably false.
Antiochus Epiphanes,
WHAT!!!!!! Everyone here is a paragon of virtue and righteousness. Pure in thought and deed in every way. Be banished from our sight (site?) until you have perfected yourself.
Louis
P.S. Well it is what the Slimepitters and such think we claim isn’t it?
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, MD, PhD, DDS, Esq, OM @ 374;
I tend to agree that ‘old school’ scepticism doesn’t really deal with the religious elephant in the room. While I would concede that if Big Foot actually existed, or if contact with aliens was acheived, then it would of course be a big deal, the odds against such things are long to say the least, and the amount of time expended on such thigs is pretty disproportionate.
For myself, I would say that I don’t care if people choose to believe in such things without evidence, except in so far that it is likely that, at some point, we will once again run into a theist who claims; “yeah, but you can’t prove that Big Foot/Aliens/the Loch Ness Monster doesn’t exist, and that means that your precious scientific method is flawed – therefore god…”
It is as depressingly inevitable as it is incredibly moronic.
What I really don’t understand is why so many ‘old school’ sceptics are so hostile to expanding rational scepticism to religious truth claims, and also seem to be so adamantly opposed to applying rational thought to issues of social justice. It is like they are afraid to leave their comfortable little fringe bubble of social, political and cultural irrelevancy or something…
SamStrange:
A-fuckin’-men.
I’ve seen far too many people self-identify as skeptic just to excuse their own obtuseness. Don’t accept AGW? You’re skeptical of global warming. Don’t accept the social disease of extreme socioeconomic disparity? You’re skeptical the poor are disadvantaged. Don’t accept RW was on-target with her simple, “Guys, don’t do this?” You’re skeptical that a clumsy pass in an enclosed space is really that uncomfortable for the passee.
Too many folks use skepticism as a shield for their own privilege. It’s a tool, one that needs to be used appropriately to be of any real use. And like any tool, it can be misused.
I am a humanist that uses skepticism to sieve the nonsense from my understanding of reality. I’m not perfect in its use yet, but I’m working on it.
I distrust anyone who identifies strictly as a skeptic.
(And don’t get me started on the folks who use free thought to justify their own willful ignorance.)
cyberCMDR:
♥!
Louis @ 380;
Say it with me now – Deeeep Riffffts!
;-P
Gregory:
Sadly, theists already use this argument to prove that evolution is false– look at what’s taught through the Accelerated Christian Education curriculum:
And without taking down the religious component, there’s nothing that so-called “skeptics” can do to put a dent in the claim.
Bingo! :D
Me:
Herp a derp! That was your point, Gregory. Need moar coffee.
Anyway, just fighting against the silliness of crypto-zoology (or whatever the fuck it’s called) and psychics and whatnot isn’t enough nor is it particularly useful if you don’t attack the underlying causes.
And since “skeptics” won’t focus on the big picture problems, they are pretty fucking useless IMHO.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, MD, PhD, DDS, Esq, OM @ 387;
Gah! Teh stoopid – it burns!
I heartily detest that Accelerated Christian Education business. It is nothing more than creationist indoctrination masquerading as education.
@ 388;
Perhaps the reduced efficacy of your coffee is the result of the fact that you are imbibing caffeine for two now?
Dark Foetus is nicking off with your precious, precious caffeine from inside the womb! The utter cheek of it!
;-P
QFT.
QFT with a cherry on top.
Just a heads up, but I was reading a discussion on one of the threads recently (The Zombie Thread, I think) where some of the regulars were pointing out the possible ableist connotations of this phrase, since it apparently can function as an allusion to mental illness, specifically the stereotypical depiction of the vocalisations of some sufferers.
I am not sure how credible that interpretation is, but it is certainly worth bearing in mind, so I thought I would mention it.
Gregory,
It’s a shame isn’t it. We can’t use “butthurt”, we can’t use “herp derp”, and soon we won’t be able to slap women on the arse and tell them to make us a sammich and fetch us a beer.
It’s Political Correctness Gorn Maaaaad I Tells Ya.
Louis
Gregory:
I appreciate the head’s up, but I’ve defended the use of “herp a derp” before.
Long story short, it comes from the expression “derp!” which originated in the movie Basketball and it was not mocking anyone with a disability, just one of the stupid protagonists.
So, unless “stupid” is off limits too, I don’t see how “herp a derp” is ablist.
Holy fucking shit, look at this monstrosity of a thread.
I had a hard time reading after someone said they thought flight of the dodos had a great point. The point to me seemed to be “creationists are so much nicer, that must be why everyone believes them!”, except they weren’t nice at all. That dude would have known that if he had asked them about queers or where everyone else is going to go when they die.
yeah DERP is a southpark thing that they have used over and over. Like the “rob schneider is…” spoofs from the john edwards episode used “derp” to replace all the stupid nonsense that usually goes in movie previews (I watched it recently, I’m not a big fan of theirs).
There’s a godbot/creobot nymed Jim that comes by every month or so and complains about our tone. I think that was him. I don’t believe a word he says, since he never, ever, shows evidence, just his OPINION as a creobot/godbot/fuckwitted idjit. Which, of course, is presuppositionally wrong.
I agree that ‘herp a derp’ isn’t ablist, but it’s starting to *become* ablist, due to being interpreted that way in some subcultures. See the recent flap over the fan-named character “Derpy Hooves” in MLP recently:
http://www.equestriadaily.com/2012/02/amy-keating-rogers-response-to-derpy.html
Long story short, the actual episode where the character was named Derpy was edited to remove the name. Instead, she’s now called Ditzy Doo… which I’m not wild about, because “ditzy” is (or used to be) sexist, similar to “airhead”. Maybe “ditzy” is undergoing a gender-neutral shift.
er, take a ‘recently’ out of there. Too tired to preview properly.
Here’s the thing, though: the same argument could be used for “stupid”. Yes, some people will use both expressions against those with disabilities, so are both off limits?
I mean, it’s awfully hard to insult someone’s intelligence without using a word that at some point hasn’t been used against a disabled person.
(And considering that “ditzy” has always applied to women (or men acting like women), it’s worse than “derp” which 1) has been much more recently coined and 2) we can trace back to it’s origins.)
An option would be not to insult peoples intelligence (half joking, I am doing it all the time).
But seriously, how often is insulting people with an derogatory application of an attribute which is (a) a handicap (b) often have a genetic or developmental component to it a good idea?
Using a stunt email such as this in an attempt to taint the opposition is silly. I’m sure there are plenty more that accurately display the opposition’s position far better … but why use those? That would be – gasp! – an attempt to resolve the situation! No. This has gone far beyond any feminist argument to straight up brass tack ego upon ego. What a disappointment.
@400. Can you refer to these reasonable arguments rather than just speculating that they exist?
That’s not what I’m arguing against.
My point is that “herp a derp” does not specifically target the disabled and it never has.
Are you new here? The I Get Emails feature – which is long-running – is not meant to “taint the opposition” or “accurately display the opposition’s position.” It’s meant for the audience to laugh at/sigh at/rage at some of the amusing/disappointing/vile shit that ends up in PZ’s mailbox. If you’d like to stop being a condescending asshole for a few seconds and think about shit, I imagine you’d realize that’s a perfectly valid thing to do on a blog.
triciapeterson, “the opposition” dirtied its own taint.
Although, actually, if you’d thought about shit for a few seconds, you’d also realize that this is part of the opposition’s position. Since there’s not just one opposition, that doesn’t mean it’s anyone else’s position, but sending emails like this is in fact something “the opposition” does. You can tell because “the opposition” just did it.
Thunderf00t’s writing on this blog was rubbish.
tricia:
Even if we dismiss all of T’f00t’s arguments during his short stint at FtB, considering that this email contains a rape fantasy, I think that this really hasn’t gone beyond “any feminist argument”.
But you stupids gotta stupe, amIright?
Rite Audley? So stoop’id.
Dr. Audley: I was largely referring to words such as stupid, idiot, etc.
For instance stupid very often has the meaning of being of low intelligence (a handicap), and it is specifically referring to a person of low intelligence in a derogatory manner (for instance it would also be extremely bad form to call a person who actually had low intelligence “stupid”).
So what I am getting at is what makes stupid “okay”? Take for instance the word “fat” (which I assume we both agree should not be used in a derogatory way). “Fat” share both the genetic/developmental component, and the insulting component to people who are actually fat.
Also please notice I am myself calling people stupid all the time, so no bad intent on your part was implied, I assume i am in the wrong on this issue.
Dr. Audley Z. Darkheart, MD, PhD, DDS, Esq, OM;
I see your point. As I say, I am not sure to what degree the phrase is accruing ableist connotations over time, and I apologise if I came across as trying to put you on the spot here through poor communication.
——————————————————————
Louis @ 390;
Why is it so darn hard to be a man? No one cares about our man fee-fees (IMPORTANT!) or our pee-pees (EVEN MOAR IMPORTANT!!1!!11!). And what about our rights? Our rights to slap passing shapely female backsides at will*. Our rights to have sammichs made for us**.
Don’t you just miss the good old days***?
—————————————————————-
* Essential to the continued survival of the species, dontcha know. What? Do you want our species to descend into a loose group of itinerant clans of barbarous cannibals scuttling through the irradiated wilderness of our once great (and, naturally, entirely peen-built) civilisation? Well, do you?
** Because men are congenitally incapable of using a knife to make a sandwich for ourselves without accidentally inflicting severe lacerations on ourselves and possibly enagaging in the impromptu amputation of one or more digits. Truefacts.
*** Well, ‘good’ if you were a heterosexual, middle aged, middle or upper class, white male – but it is not like anyone else actually counts for anything, amiright?
david:
My rule of thumb (and, hey, if other’s don’t agree with it, that’s okay) is whether or not the word/expression targets a specific group of people.
For instance, anyone can be or act stupidly, but a word like “retard” has a specific meaning and is used to “punch down” at a group of people that are already discriminated against. “Retard” carries specifics that “stupid” does not.
Gregory:
It’s okay.
Just because I don’t think that “herp a derp” is ablist doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be having this conversation. As Pteryxx has pointed out, it’s an expression that’s evolving and I think we should be mindful of that.
Wow am I late to this party. I’ve been overwhelmed with trying to get my house sold and my belongings packed. Yeesh.
But I am surprised that no one seems to have taken this e-mail writer to task for his rather pitiful attempts at threat. If you really wanna scare someone, you gotta go all Zoe on their ass:
Now THAT is the kind of thing over which I might prefer reading Tf00t’s maunderings on the irrelevance of fighting sexism.
Besides, stupid people never think they’re stupid anyway. They just assume you’re referring to someone else.
That’s because they’re stupid.
Skimming and a bit threadrupt.
To everyone who is ever so sad about the bad werdz, oh so terribly disappointed with “both sides”, and wounded to the quick because people won’t respect their desperate pleas for everyone to all get along, I present some amazing information – FTB is not the only place to comment.
There’s the new slymepit where you can pull “mean” quotes out of context and be hailed as a hero. (Note: calling for peace there is not recommended but both sides, right?) There’s TF’s youtube channel where you can tell him how disappointed you are. (both sides!) There’s even the JREF forum where you can find a fabulously PC-free discussion of sexism at TAM, which is primarily lead by a creationist and an anti-vaxxer. (Both sides? More like all sides!)
These places don’t expect anything from you. Your unoriginal patter will find a safe haven, your feelings will be wrapped in cotton wool and, with a bit of luck, you won’t be challenged on anything and your precious worldview can remain intact. Win/win!
I see stupid people. They don’t know they’re stupid.
To quote Messrs Dunning & Kruger.
re the validity of “stupid” as an insult. There are other valid words that have not been tainted by their application to the disabled. We can borrow from other languages.
For example, “stultus” comes from the Latin word for stupid, from which we get SAT words like stultify or stultification. The most stupid (in Latin) would be stultissimus.
Other possibilities include dolt, doofus, nanoencephalite, paene-sentient, etc. Might be fun to get creative here.
I’m not giving up stupid. Give me a break.
That anyone can act stupidly is IMHO a bit circular: One could just as well say “anyone can act retarded”; it all boils down to wether the word is innocent or not in the first place (retarded also has a perfectly innocent meaning, as in the opposite of advanced).
Your second point central; is it used to “punch down at” a specific group, ie. how would a specific group feel about having the term applied. I agree this is central. So how does one determine that? One could apply the “could you say it to the face”-test, but saying “You are retarded” to a person with a mental handicap is IMHO about as incensitive as saying: “you are stupid”.
My feelings on the issue is that it boil down to degree, the degree to which stupid /merely/ refer to ideas, and the degree retardation refer to the handicapped.
Both words are essentially very similar in terms of being offensive.
Josh:
Me neither.
No, no, no. “Stupid” is not strongly associated with the disabled the way “retard” is. Seriously—where does this idea come from?
david:
Which is used at the expense of people who are actively discriminated against. It is used to to hurt people with very specific disabilities and is used to dehumanize those with Down Syndrome (etc.).
Stupid does not have the same connotations, sorry.
Holy shit, no they’re not.
I have no problem dropping problematic terms, but I have not yet seen a convincing argument that “stupid” specifically targets the disabled.
Dont worry, I was just asking myself the question by what standard we should tell “Stupid”, “Retarded” and “herp-a-derp” apart.
They can pry “stupid” from my cold dead lips!
David:
yes. Just like anyone can act gay, any man can throw like a girl, and any human being can be lame.
Yes. Exactly like that.
I believe dumbfuck is the preferred nomencalture
Rev:
You have been all sorts of full of win lately. ;)
And, david, next time you feel like JAQing off, do it in the privacy of your own home.
Dr. Audley: They last sentence was me being stupid, I meant to say something else (about properties of the word, potential for harm and bla bla bla) and forgot to take it out.
Finally caught up with the thread.*
Sheepdip thinks that women might have it rough but won’t anyone consider poor Thunderfool’s hurt fee-fees? Also sheepdip can use blockquotes but won’t because that shows too much respect to others on the thread.
Cephas Borg thinks we’re all meanies and won’t visit this blog again. Does anyone else remember Cephas Borg posting here because the name rings absolutely no bells for me.
jackrawlinson thinks we’re hypocrites because…well, just because.
triciapetersen is concerned.
In other words, a normal feminist thread at Pharyngula.
As with several other members of The Horde, I’m feeling skeptical about self-proclaimed skeptics. They seem to ignore the famous Feynman.
*You can thank the thunderstorms over the Sound that I’m here.
Amblebury:
Of course, gratefully accepted. ♥
I forgot a word in my post #429. The penultimate sentence should read: They seem to ignore the famous Feynman quote.
Yep. I was so irritated by hir inconsistency when I went to bed that it kept me up for a while. Apparently, Thunderf00t gets death threats on the internet and acts like a callous douche to people getting death threats and rape threats, and that makes him a , but Caine suffers horrible abuse and brings it up in an argument sheepshit doesn’t understand and . Tearing out my hair.
Rev. BDC:
I like dumbfuck’s cousins, fuckwit and lackwit.
******
So I poke my head back in and see Sheeptick called me:
bully/girl/poor thing/pathetic/sad/in need of help and I’m sure more that I missed. Just in case you’re trying to read, sheepstick, I haven’t been a girl for many a decade. I’m a woman. I’m also doing just fine, thank you. I have a happy life and a successful career. I’m sure you wanted to know, eh?
All I did was dismantle *one* of your incredibly stupid arguments. I didn’t say a word about you. You’re a case point in being pathetic, when you’re reduced to attempting to pat me on the head. Tsk. Tfoot deserves you, in full.
Ah well. Dumbfuck works just fine. I’ve always been the type to prefer terms like “fecal inventory” to shit list, but that’s just me. Limited range, I guess.
Carry on.
‘Tis:
I recognize it. On and off poster, infrequent, nothing major.
That makes sense (stupid not being ableist), I was wondering about that.
Now, can I metaphorically punch in the teeth of the next person I hear use the expression window-licking mong?
Please do.
—
Seriously, I hope sheepshit gets banned with extreme prejudice. I missed the post with the “pathetic sad” bit. What an evil fuck.
Ernst Hot:
Go for it.
cyberCMDR:
Hey, that’s fine. Language play is most definitely appreciated here. Why, there are many people who show up here with Craniorectum syndrome and the like.
One of the beautiful thing about Pharyngula is that all manner of approaches are appreciated and used. Everyone is free to develop their own particular style. Me, I’m simple, I tend to vitriol laced with Cupcakes. ;D
How about sociopath? I’d call the person who made that disgusting beat up Anita Sarkeesian game a sociopath, the same goes for the people who found it funny.
Not quite. We have not had the requisite discussion about whether a slang term for lady bits is a gendered insult or not. Or did it come up and I just missed it?
Ssssshhhhhhhh, Oggie! I do not want to have to explain that using “cunt” is really fucking misogynistic again!
I have drawn and undrawn conclusions myself several times. That conversation has been had at length over here. I think it’s worth reading anyway.
Awe, c’mon, Audley, the 157th time’s the charm!
Cipher:
Thanks, I’m too tired to read all that now, but I’ll bookmark it for later.
Dr. Audrey: I have been giving what you wrote some thought and you have convinced me on the stupid/retarded issue.
But I think its a fine line to draw and many things to potentially wrong, for instance “senile”, “moron”, etc.
Caine,
Thanks. Speaking of Latin, love the nym .
Latin: The only good language is a dead language!
Ach! Dropped the “panther whisperer” part of my comment because I used angle brackets!
There are two truths about Latin:
1) Latin is a language as dead as dead can be, it killed off all the Romans, and now it’s killing me.
2) A gentleman need not know Latin, but he should at least have forgotten it.
The first applied to my learning of Latin (7 years behind the desk, man and boy), the second to my current predicament.
Hurrah! And Bod Shave My Ding.
Louis
C0nc0rdance has a video on the issue:
“PZ Myers vs. Thunderf00t”
From video description:
I don’t feel very strongly one way or the other on feminism or sexism at conferences. I think everyone wants an inclusive, safe environment. There’s a disagreement about how best to achieve that, and I’m open to reasonable arguments on the topic. I’m also sympathetic to people who have championed this cause, because I’m sure they get frustrated with attempts to educate and motivate the apathetic masses (like me). I feel the same way on my own issues. That doesn’t exempt them from honest participation in the debate.
I think the video capture the sentiment of many outsiders very well.
Louis,
It’s gotten better, if you study using the Cambridge series of texts. It isn’t the drill and kill method I had in High School. It presents a continuing set of stories just beyond the current skill level of the last lesson so most kids can parse it, then provides the vocabulary and lessons (conjugations, etc.) afterwords.
It’s a bit of a Roman soap opera, so it keeps the kids engaged. They featured the family in the series in a Doctor Who episode, when he went back to Pompeii. That tells you a bit about how popular it is in England (and the US).
Since we’re talking about Latin now :P does anyone have a good study resource for Latin meter? I’ve been at Latin for a while now and am at the grad level, but meter has always been one of those concepts my brain refuses to pick up, and it seems like no matter how much I study it, it disappears a week later. What I’d really like is, like, a workbook with clean texts, with scanned-out versions in the back.
cyberCMDR:
I have a fondness for Discworld Latin. I have two inscription rings with Discworld mottoes on them: Nihil Privatus (Assassin’s Guild) and Non Temetis Messor (DEATH’s motto). :D
Louis:
This would be me (with a couple of fixes). I learned Latin in Catholic school and while I didn’t promptly forget it, forget I did.
The Ministry Of Hypocrisy commends to your attention PZ’s remarks on the hazards of parochiality in this video he made at home
I’ve been thinking about what Josh said:
I think it’s because some people tend to use “retarded” in place of “stupid” or use it as a stronger flavor of “stupid”*. Because of this, people who have good (but not very well thought out) intentions have started equating the two terms, even though they absolutely should not. They think they’re being the “good guys” even though they’ve let the bigots color their usage and thought process.
*You could substitute a lot of slurs here: think about kids using “that’s so gay” when they mean that something is stupid or unappealing.
Oh noez! Accusations of teh groopthink!
commentary sorted (somewhat) by commenter, because this comment is so fucking long.
there’s two ways to interpret this silly sentence:
1)you are an individualist who agrees only when another person is right; as opposed to people who aren’t you and aren’t individualists, who apparently pick a famous person they like, and then just by default agree with them. As a consequence, you often puff yourself up as a maverick, the only person who dares disagree, while claiming everyone else is a dogmatist.
2)you are an individualist and thus must guard said identity by randomly disagreeing regardless of right-or-wrong, and preferably strike a “neutral” or “moderate” or “centrist” position on any issue regardless of value. As a result, you will often pull false equivalences to defend this centrist/neutral stance.
Let’s read the rest of your comment and see which of those two you’ll turn out to be. Or will you be maybe a heretofore unknown kind of “person who calls themselves an individualist”? that would be refreshing.
hmmm… tricky… could go either way so far.
ah, clearly an “individualist” of flavor #1
that’s somewhat self-evident, given this post.
you mean you haz a sad because what you admit is the sharpest community around has actually had the gall to arrive at some conclusions, and isn’t willing to re-debate whether the earth is round anymore?
conclusion: you’re a combination of #1 and #2: you apparently seem to believe that coming to conclusions is evil and the same evidence should be re-debated as if it were fresh evidence (because True Skeptics are only allowed to accept conclusions in biology and physics, but not social science? or are you similarly open to re-discussing over and over again whether evolution really is true, and letting people host blogs that claim that to be so?), and anyone who has allowed themselves to come to a conclusion about reality based on the evidence they have has become a “dogmatist” if they do not grant equal standing to ignorant hypothesizing and re-hashing of old arguments, instead simply dismissing them as the bullshit they are.
*sigh*
how… ubiquitous.
– – – – –
mental health has fuck-all to do with this, so don’t use “crazy”.
which one is it; did he make good points, or did he say that stupid, ignorant shit. seriously, what evidence does he base his claims of harmlessness on? the fact that he, a large white straight dude, never got attacked?
he has never experienced the “it” he wants RW to get used to.
“surely”? based on what evidence? your wishful thinking?
you don’t get to decide this. he’s an enemy of progress, and he has positioned himself as an opponent of something many women (and not a few men) very much want at the conferences, for their comfort and safety.
no it isn’t. these conferences aren’t safe, or else there would be no harassment. we know for a fact that there is, and plenty of it.
if the conference-goers are the drunk people at the bar, of fucking course it can.
incorrect. you write entitled, ignorant bullshit before, and now you have written an apologia for harassment, since you say that TF’s minimizing of it is “valid”.
boring strawman. what we’ve attacked is your attitude of entitlement to airing your self-admittedly ignorant opinions and have them corrected; politely.
not in the minds of people who actually understand what freethought is. because in reality, it’s actually acceptable to admit one has mde a mistake and correct it; it’s the free thinking, intellectually honest thing to do.
indeed he does. and he’s wrong, and basing his opinion on wrong assumptions, namely that men re treated as badly in our society as women. this is blatantly not true; it’s an argument from deep ignorance to claim otherwise, and wilfull ignorance to refuse to accept evidence and arguments for an inequality in treatment of men and women on the internet. and defending it is similarly ignorant, for the same reasons.
yes. objectively, we are “better” if “good” is defined as being helpful to social progress rather than a hindrance.
interesting priority. FYI, fighting religion is not the single most important social issue. Most of us put a lot more energy in fighting against racism, sexism, classism, etc. than we do against the single and comparatively minor targed of “dipshit chirstians”.
yes.
no he isn’t. he is siding with the oppressors when he minimizes sexual harassment, and when he pretends that his experience on the internet and elsewhere is comparable to the experience of people who aren’t large Whitey C McStraighterson-types.
“maybe”? fuck you. there’s no fucking “maybe” about it.
evidence does not actually suggest this to be true. evidence suggests allegiance to the sort of “skepticism” and “freethinking” that’s basically nothing other than “you’re not the boss of me” and “I’m never ignorant, just skeptical” reactant bullshit.
he has not fought for me. he has however fought against me and my right not to be harassed, and has attempted to guilt me and others into shutting up about wanting the harassment to end.
not trite. privileged, presumptuous and wrong.
this is half of a false dichotomy. there’s more to the world of politics than “liberal” and “conservative” as understood by US politics. In the sense however that he doesn’t want the world to change lest it may diminish his “fun” and privilege, he’s very much being on the conservative rather than the progressive side of social justice issues.
I have no desire to “get along” with people who actively fight against progress in matters of social justice.
her pain is evidence, evidence that exposes the likes of you and TF as ignorant and dismissive. It outs the likes of you and TF as the ones who are not on the side of reason, dismissing evidence as you’ve done here, with claims that frame the evidence of real abuse and harassment as not part of “an objective argument” or somehow placed in conflict with “reason”.
you’re the one who thought it was a valid point to claim that the abuse women get is comparable to the abuse men get. and now you’re having a fucking fit because someone showed you one piece of evidence that that’s not the case? you’re shitty at this whole “reason” thing.
actually that’s exactly what she said. your failure to comprehend doesn’t make it otherwise.
this is a lie. the “heart of this” is that TF’s assumption that his experiences are comparable to women’s experiences are factually incorrect, and that you can’t handle dealing with the evidence for that fact without throwing a fit.
this is egocentric bullshit. FYI, we already dislike you for your defense of someone who opposes progress on matters of social justice, and for your entitled presumptuousness in believing you were entitled to polite responses to your public airing of a self-admittedly ignorant opinion.
this is factually incorrect.
this is also factually incorrect. the “implication” is that you’re ignorant and have problems following this argument because of your ignorance and presumptuousness. whether you’re stupid or dense and therefore ignorant is not actually known.
this is not true.
don’t do this. it’s infantilizing.
don’t do this. it’s infantilizing and condescending as fuck.
you’re one presumptuous, egocentric fuck.
– – – – –
QFT. more and more, “skepticism” just looks like an excuse to never have to accept that one is ignorant, by rephrasing it as being “skeptical”. AGW denialists have perfected this art, but the privileged Whitey C. McStraightersons are very good at it, too.
why look at the evidence, when simply assuming that it’s no worse than the trolling dudes on the internet get?
– – – – – –
I don’t know who you are, but I like your style
– – – – – –
but are you sure that you’re “making a dent”? [/sarc]
– – – – –
they aren’t, if taken literally. they are however, in the sense that “skepticism” has become a hideout for dudebros & friends who want to feel s00perSMRT because they can debunk bigfoot, UFO’s and in a few cases, but who have no desire to use skepticism on their “opinions”. the original arguments against including atheism in skepticism were about this, and the arguments about how social issues don’t belong and/or are matters of ideology and personal preference are a continuation of that.
and in that sense, skepticism is opposed to humanism, since it defends the right of dudebros & friends to forever “be skeptical” about social justice and activism issues, and hterefore not actually do anything (compare the situation to climate activist vs “skeptic”)
sheeptick, if you’re still here:
*brandishing a large package of frozen green beans*
Insert rectally. Sideways.
–
I accidentally a word. the word is “religion”.
Russell:
We saw those waaaaaaaay back when PZ posted them here. What’s your point, fuckwit?
ObMiniRant: Why in the fuckety fuck do all the assclowns and assorted douchecakes think a person cannot learn and grow? Why do think a once held thought or opinion is etched in stone? Like Abbie being all upsetty that PZ didn’t crusade against the patriarchy years and years ago backchannel at Sciborg.
Janine, Fucking Dyke of Rage Mountain said:
No. I wanna lay all the cards on the table. Exactly how many kiddierapists should we ignore for ATHEIST UNITY.
Really. I don’t wanna fight. And those kiddierapists, they always have friends or family willing to say what a good piece of insightful commentary they wrote last week just after they were done raping a child or two.
I can handle adult women being harassed, belittled, photoed. Heck, if it’s adult on adult rape, I’m not fussed.
What I really want to know is: when someone says we shouldn’t talk about kiddie rapists in our midst because atheism is more important, how many paragraphs should I write in support?
Cipher,
Went rummaging through our references (spousal unit was a Latin teacher!), and found nothing at the level of detail you probably want.
You might want to check the American Classical League to see if they have resources.
Sorry.
Aww, thanks for doing that! I’ll try out the ACL too.
Cicely:
♥
Cipher,
I’m a former HS Latin teacher, and I had the same brain-block that you have when it comes to scansion. I admitted that to my AP students, gave them some handouts and let them figure it out among themselves. There would usually be a band student among them who would get it and explain it to the others.
(I never could learn to read music, either)
Bolchazy-Carducci publishes some great workbooks that might be what you are looking for. I have “A Vergil Workbook” in my hand. It would provide you with the excerpts to try on your own. If you also order the teacher’s manual, you will find many of those excerpts properly scanned. There are also manuals available for Catullus, Ovid and others, if you prefer Elegiac Poetry.
on the topic of insults:
I’ve come to the conclusion a while back that all “traditional” insults in the English language (and probably others; been to lazy to do the “research”) derive (or used to derive) their power to insult from the implication that the person/thing thusly insulted is (like a) member of a lower-status group.
there are two ideal solutions to the problem:
1)stop using all insults and negative words, ever; not bloody likely.
2)be creative and invent new ones; more likely, and when it’s teamwork, it’s working well. I don’t think “fuckweasel”, “cupcake”, “dingleberry”, etc. carry any kyriarchical baggage, but it is a lot of work to re-create an entire vocabulary set. plus, for some types of insult (esp. ones insulting people’s intelligence), they’ll simply end up on the euphemism mill and if sufficiently popularized, WILL come to be a synonym for “retarded”
Personally, I try for solution #2, but I’m actually ridiculously bad at it (took me forever to stop using “lame”, can’t manage to stop using “suck”, have given up on not using “blow”, and don’t have the willpower to refrain from insulting people’s intelligence via the idiot/stupid/moron set of labels, when I should be more accurate and use “ignorant”, “privileged”, “entitled”, “in denial”, etc. instead; plus, I seem to lack the creativity to come up with new, kyriarchy-free insults)
oh, and on the “sociopath” thing: I’m somewhat suspicious of anything that implies conforming to the kyriarchy, no matter how vilely, is abnormal/exceptional (“monster”, “sociopath”, “crazy”, etc.), since it erases the systemic causes of people being able/wanting to behave that way.
Omg me neither! I didn’t even think about that – I could read the notes, but I had to hear the rhythms. I got away with it for a while because of my memory. (And indeed, I can pick up spoken meter the same way – I had the first ten lines of the Odyssey memorized in spoken meter for a while, for instance. I just can’t scan things out.)
I will definitely look that up. Thank you so much :)
That’s a great idea! I didn’t even think about that. Awesome.
Cipher,
You’re welcome! I may be disabled and retired, but the old teaching skills are still there.
Jadehawk:
That’s why I steal other people’s insults! :D
Only a fuckwit asswipe would do something like that.
Here is an interesting term I have often seen thrown around in the sceptic community, “psychopath”.
Clearly refers to a specific group with a mental disorder (ASPD) and applied as a derogatory term.
Insults? Fuck. The possibilities are endless http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAy4zULKFDU
Interesting.
I’m starting to recognise Jadehawk’s posts by the marjanovićing.
‘Tis:
Listen cupcake, how’s about you take this porcupine and shove it in backwards, mmmmmkay?
;D
..or one could go for the full taunt… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=895eSm4oQRw&feature=related
For anyone who still wants to complain about “both sides”: SHUT THE FUCK UP.
IT little profits that an idle tick,
By this still screen, among these barren ‘tubes,
Match’d with an bigots wit, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
The hoard, and mock, and feed, and know not me.
Male readers,
Just face it. PZ’s blog is not for you. Only lesbians and male lesbians are allowed to post here. If you deviate from the party line you’re going to get all the shut up‘s, fuck you‘s and take your oppressing penis elsewhere‘s you can handle. And if you complain about it, you’re a tone troll. And if you do it back, you’ll get banned, or shouted down by the lesbian majority.
Was it always like this? I’ve been reading this blog for months and never noticed it. Sure, PZ called US soldiers murderers, so I knew he was hyper leftist, politically. And I knew he was feminist, but not the hyper feminism I keep seeing now.
I’m not even on Tfoot’s side. I just don’t like the abuse that’s been tossed all over, the assumption of bad faith by the lesbians vs. anyone who deviates, however minutely, from the party line.
This is not a blog to read if you are male.
Have at it, harpies and male fellow travelers.
“C.” ?
hoardhordedavidbohm #472:
And thanks for proving that you don’t know shit about ASPD. Antisocial personality disorder is fucking dangerous. It’s called “antisocial personality” for a goddamn reason: people with ASPD think that all of their actions are justified, no matter how horrible those actions are.
Worse yet, the tendency for ASPD (and other Cluster B personality disorders such as NPD) is that the person with it doesn’t think they have a problem — it’s everyone else that is the problem*. As such, it’s hard to even get a diagnosis.
But that doesn’t make psychopaths and sociopaths any less fucking dangerous to the people around them.
Seriously. Do some fucking research before you litigate.
* – taken from my memory of a discussion in the comments here, not necessarily wholly accurate, and I don’t have the time to go look for the thread because I’m about to leave work. If someone could expand on this, that would be awesome.
I am Threadrupt, I read the first 40 or so comments when this first got posted.
But holy FUCK this sparked a thousand comment thread?!
That is all. I will go attempt to finish this thread now.
yep. Whitey McStraighterson’s middle name is “cis”
From USian people who, as kids, slept through Civics class, but got a couple of questions right on the multiple choice test. Probably because the questions were worded loosely.
Jadehawk:
Shouldn’t that read The Rev. Whitey C. McStraighterson, M.B.A.?
This is so fucking mind-numbingly stupid that I don’t even know how to engage it.
Sili:
Cis-, maybe?
moshiachone:
Good news, everyone! Apparently I’m a lesbian! Where the pretty laydeez at?
Oh my. How fucking precious.
Are you in high school? Seriously, I know that us Femi-Fascists are all assumed to be butch dykes, but I haven’t seen it quite so bluntly spelled out since I was about 18 or so.
(Oh wait, I graduated high school early. Hmmmm, I’ll give you freshman or sophomore in college, maybe.)
I haz a confoozd (non-sarcastically).
Setar, are you saying internet-diagnosing people with ASPD by calling them sociopaths/psychopaths is ok?
Are you saying that calling people sociopaths/psychopaths is not diagnosing them with ASPD, and thus not ableist, and therefore internet-diagnosing people with these lables is ok and/or accurate?
Are you saying psychopath/sociopath has a meaning other than “person who has a damaged brain and is therefore harmful”, and if so, what is it?
Are you saying something completely else, and if so, what?
Louis:
Going back, oh, a third of the thread, I do take issue with your review of Taken.
Not that it isn’t politically vile. I watched it, even enjoyed it to some degree even the whole time I was thinking “wow, this is reactionary as fuck.”
But you neglected to mention The Friend.
The Friend, is, of course, the one to blame. She has sex. She smokes. She drinks. Her flirting with some cute boy is what gets innocent-pure-daughter targeted by Eastern European kidnappers in the first place. None of these are portrayed as having been done to any kind of excess. But she isn’t pure and virginal.
And so the second act, maybe-he’s-found-his-daughter reveal was in fact that he found The Friend. Dead with a needle in her arm. For her vile sins of taking Virginal-Daughter to Europe, and flirting with some boy.
That right there. The girl who dies because she wasn’t pure enough to be rescued? That’s what pushed it over the edge for me from reactionary patriarchy schlock into full blown Chick Tract.
I remember thinking at the time, wondering how anyone could take it seriously. Or indeed, if it was intended seriously, because it frequently felt like it was jumping over the line into self-parody.
But there are people who take it seriously. Just like there are people who like The Wire because “Omar is a badass!” as if they couldn’t possibly have misunderstood more.
Heh. If we’re to apply davidbohm’s logic, we should stop using “pedophile”. It doesn’t matter if the group we’re referring to is actually dangerous to others, we can’t derogate them!
Cipher, OM, Fighting Fucktoy #487
If the cupcake is true to form, xe just make the one drive-by post and disappear back into the slimepit, never to be seen here again. So let’s ignore hir unless xe comes back.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
halp, I’m being oppressed.
(another) someone doesn’t know what the word “abuse” means.
this is factually incorrect and probably stems from the well-known confusion between “male” and “asshole” in misogynist circles.
which is it. is this not a blog to read if you’re male, or are there male fellow travelers? it can’t be both, you know.
I dont understand what I wrote in my post which you think is wrong, specifically I didnt claim ASPD wasnt dangerous. Can you point out where my post “prove” anything? Do you disagree psychopathy (as it is commonly used) does not refer to ASPD in the same way “retard” does not refer to someone with a mental disabillity?
actually, david’s logic says you can’t use “pedophile” as an insult when you cannot have any evidence that they’re in fuck pedophiles, since you can’t diagnose people over the internet with personality disorders.
fact goddamnit, fact!
*sigh*
*facepalm*
Checks PZ’s practices and standards, sees lies in the first sentences. Not good for the poster. Obvious fuckwitted idjit.
Gee, and if all you do is preach male privilege and fuckwittery, why shouldn’t that the be treated with the disdain it deserves?
Evidently you lie about reading this blog. It has been pro-feminist for years. Only a liar and bullshitter wouldn’t have noticed. Just another drive-by MRA, full of attitude and lies.
Who the fuck are you to talk about abuse and bad language. Look at the masthead. Your name isn’t there. And PZ does run a rude blog according to his standards and practices. So, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM, and why must lesbians be every second word? I would say you have the problem, where women who aren’t interested in your pitiful self must be lesbians, not discerning women.
Guess I’m a male lesbian, ’cause I do like “wimminz” and I also like Pharyngula.
It can be challenging, but I recognize that I do have some assumptions that need challenging. The thing is, we don’t recognize our blind spots until they are pointed out. Sometimes it takes repeated exchanges before that blind spot becomes discernible. Sometimes that revelation doesn’t happen, and sometimes you have to fight to justify your point. But you must be present to win.
Pharyngula is more than a blog site, it is a discovery process.
Jadehawk #489:
A person who engages in abusive behaviour to such degree and repetitiveness with little or no regret or self-evaluation, to the point where it can no longer be reasonably said that they are accounting for anyone but themselves.
I already have ‘pitizen’ in mind as an alternative, though. I think I’ll stick to that for now; ASPD is sticky enough with how we almost can’t diagnose it in the first place.
Or we could just call those people what they are: conservatives.